Greg Jenner
Appearances
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
This is 1610, the Hudson attempts this overwintering. It doesn't go well. There are, I think, saying tensions on the ship is underselling it.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Sorry. Abacut Prickett.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Listen, as the owner of a really nice coat, I get it. And the upshot is that Henry Hudson is left to die.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And they're never seen again. No, I mean, fair play to him for trying. But in fairness, Stu, it's quite embarrassing that the kind of moment of your death is encapsulated in they name it after you. Like there's a sort of awkwardness there.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Much like his crew, we have to leave Hudson behind. Sorry, Hudson.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Various other explorers kept venturing into these very dangerous waters. Can you chart us a course through these next two centuries of attempts? What are the highlights or lowlights?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Because they've heard about Jens Munch, presumably.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And so fur is important because it's the warm clothing, right? It's a fabric of desirability. Is it luxurious or is it just practical?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Lovely to have you back, Stu. Thank you. I'm clearly giddy with glee today. I know you're interested in climate change as an area of policy and discourse, but also comedy, right? Yes, for sure.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And then you'd think people would quit looking for the Northwest Passage because we've had several disasters. But they sort of have another crack. You've got Samuel Hearn in 1770, another fur trader. He tries to locate the Northwest Passage by doing something a bit different. Do you want to guess what he tries doing, Stu? And he finds the Northwest Passage. He's looking for it.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Wow, he's thought, hey, if it's a passage that's got edges, I'll find them. Yeah, he walks it. He's basically going to get his 10,000 steps in and then some. Whoa, for charity? Yes, he's going from the Hudson Bay all the way up to the Arctic. It's a huge amount of territory he's traversing with a team, presumably, with assistance. I mean, he's not just a one man on his own, is he?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Can we not? Yeah, I mean, we should also mention James Knight in 1715. I mean, do you want to talk us through his... Well, he was an ex-Hudson's Bay Company employee.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Oh, really? Wow. They proper sunk. They sunk. Yeah, that's a proper failed mission, isn't it? When your boat is underwater, you're like, OK, we might have to call this one, lads. And we found them in the 90s.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yes. Were they lost or was this the pan all along?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Okay, next on the list is Your Dead to Me's previous subject, Captain James Cook. Okay. You must know the name, presumably, Stuart? Of course I've heard of Captain Cook. Yes? Good. Captain James T. Cook. Yes, and his Starship Enterprise. No, no, no, that's something I'm getting off topic. Yeah. He's going the other way. He's trying to do the Northwest Passage from the Pacific.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So he's looking for the back door in, which is interesting. Does that work for him? No.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Great name. He does...
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So 1779, Cook dies. George Vancouver says, this is just not going to happen. We've got to stop trying this. No one gets the memo because on go the next explorations. So Cook dies, you know, he gets into a big fight with the indigenous peoples and angers them and they kill him. So that's sort of the end of that one. But then we get Sir John Barrow and he's got a plan.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Wait for all these ships, and now they're just sitting idle.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Pretty close to 1880. I think that's in the ballpark, isn't it? We have a kind of post-Napoleonic change of... of purpose for the Royal Navy, which means now the Navy is no longer private companies. It's now the Navy, the Admiralty. And so Barrow, he's off for his expeditions in 1818, and do they succeed?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Right, good. Ditto. I'm getting a lot of ditto on it. It's a lot of like, we found some ice, we went home.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
I failed to pronounce the North West Passage there, so I can't really... OK, so we've got naval officers sitting around, naval gazing, but they can't get through the ice. Naval gazing!
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
How would you entertain a ship full of sailors who are sort of hunkered over in the ice? Drag sea shanty. I'm up for that.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
32 drag artists. Whittle them down.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And I am guessing everyone knows where the Arctic is. But if you are confused, it's the bit at the top. Think polar bears, not penguins.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
RuPaul's Northwest Passage Arctic. Vanessa, was Britain alone in organising these Arctic explorations in the kind of 1820s, 30s, you know, that sort of post-Napoleonic time?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
OK. So we've got various sort of powers and superpowers in the region. But in the 1840s, Britain... Hello, Britain, at last. Launches the most famous Arctic mission of all. In the wind? In the 1840s. So it's pretty, you know, this is kind of peak Queen Victoria era. She came to power in 1837, so we're in the Victorian era. And the Franklin expedition is the big one.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
It's the one that we're probably going to focus the rest of this episode on. Can you talk us through this Franklin chap? Who is Sir John Franklin?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So, Stu, he sounds perfect for an Arctic exploration, but maybe not so good for running a colony.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Sounds like the Scooby gang would have a field day with that. So he sounds like he should be top of the list for candidates being drawn up to lead this latest expedition. Is he the kind of number one go-to guy? He's not even close. Really?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Oh, that's so wonderfully tense.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Wow, I'm leaving. I can't learn anything better than that. OK, so there we go. In terms of the history of Arctic exploration, maybe people have heard of John Franklin's famed 19th century expedition, which recently was fictionalised in a novel, and then the TV series The Terror. God, that was great. Good telly. It also has inspired many novels, a book by national treasure Michael Palin.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Okay, so we have an illustrious explorer, but he's had a bit of a bad time of it six years off. He was at the bottom of the list. The other guy wanted the job, was offered the job, but turned the job down out of modesty and is now second in charge. And meanwhile, they've named their ships. Was he Jared Harris in The Terror? He might be. Yeah, I think he was.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
But they've also named their ships the Terror and Erebus, Erebus being the Greek god of darkness and the underworld.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
It really is, isn't it? These are not inspiring names. I prefer Discovery. Even Matthew was sort of nice.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
The Terror and Erebus.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So Crozier is captaining the Terror, and Franklin is captaining the Erebus and the overall mission. And off they go. And these are not ordinary naval ships. They're naval vessels.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So these are ice breaking ships. These are steel hulled. They're no longer sail. I mean, they presumably might have sails. They have sails.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
But this is the new technology. This is Victorian engineering.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Just relax in the terror. Yeah. So Stephen Goldner is the provisions officer who just sort of basically just sold us 8,000 tins of meat and then goes, it's probably fine. OK, that's great.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yes, you can't just send a memo home saying, you know that food you sent out? Very leady. Very leady. So 129 crew on the two ships. Stu, what food would you pack for an Arctic expedition? You've got 8,000 tins to fill. What are you popping in there? Oh, I could put anything in a tin.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Of course, of course. So we need 8,000 tins, 2,000 of which are just lipstick. Yes, perfect, thank you. And that's only one of the reasons I've never been asked to be quartermaster. I was going to say. I don't think the Navy's going to phone you up any time soon.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
I love him so. And of course, if you're a fan of giant foam skeletons, guitar solos and double denim, you'll know that Iron Maiden also have a heavy metal song called Stranger in a Strange Land about the Arctic. If you're listening from Canada, you might be familiar with the song Northwest Passage by Stan Rogers. But what is the Northwest Passage? Or what was the Northwest Passage?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
It's probably edible. Okay, fair enough.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And to find a scurvy it's going to be citrus fruits.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah, that's an awful lot of weight in the steerage, isn't it? But these are steam-powered, well, not quite steam, but sail and steam-powered ships. So they're designed to sort of plough through the ice. They've got some power behind them.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
All right, so we've got two ships, 129 crew, two captains, one of whom was offered the job and turned it down, one of whom shouldn't have been offered the job but took it anyway. And off we go with our lovely voyage. Talk us through it.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Why did so many explorers risk everything to find it? And how was the humble tin can both blessing and a curse? Let's find out. Right, we've called this episode Arctic Exploration, but really we're talking about the Northwest Passage. Which is what? Or which was what? I mean, is it still a thing?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Not the official one. So this Northwest Passage is? Yes. Ah, already we're in trouble. And for sort of geography fans, when we say around North America, it's around North America but under Greenland.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And then under Russia, so that whole kind of...
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
It's finally done by Amundsen, who of course later famously is the conqueror of the South Pole, the race to the South Pole. That's it. Northwest achieved.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Oh, of course. Of course.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So 1497, John Cabot had tried. 2008 is the first time a ship of that size actually was able to clear those waters and go from one side to the other. God, this is history. Pointless. LAUGHTER
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Gotcha. OK. So you're sort of rounding off. Once you go past Alaska, you're clear. You're out.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Thanks, Joe. All right, what have we learned since then? Because since then, we've got marine archaeology and sat-nav and geostationary satellites and archaeology.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
That's incredible. Me too. 2014, 2016, both ships found and more questions raised. Now, that's a very tragic history, but an extraordinary history. And I suppose the geopolitics were sort of underlining all of that. Science sort of played a role, parts of it, the meteorology, the study and so on.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Time now for the nuance we know. This is the part of the show where Stu and I sit quietly in Disco Bay with our drag outfits. With our various drag outfits. Yeah, exactly. For two minutes while Professor Dr Vanessa takes the ship's wheel to tell us something that we need to know about Arctic exploration. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Vanessa.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah, and thanks to the climate catastrophe, which you've been trying to mine for jokes. Yes, in a responsible way. And in fairness, it's a very good show. What's quite interesting and perhaps depressing now is you can now comfortably cruise through this Northwest Passage on a lovely luxury liner. Do you know when that was first possible? Which year that became possible?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Let's not kill Stu. He's full of ideas. Yeah. I mean, it's extraordinary and a really important point, isn't it? The idea of a team leader is someone who has to be able to get people through the boring Tuesdays as well as through the storms and hurricanes. Yeah, really interesting.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Stu to see how much he's learned.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Jen Brister took eight pages of notes, so I think you're OK. I think I've done eight pages. LAUGHTER I've got ten questions for you. OK. You're always very good at this. OK. Question one for you, Stu. Yep. Question one. Giovanni di Verrazzano thought he had found the Northwest Passage in 1523, but where was he actually? Where was he actually? Yeah, he was 3,000 miles away in... 1523.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
That's a good guess. Vanessa?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
North Carolina. Sorry.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Question two. Why did Henry Hudson's crew stage a mutiny against him in 1610?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah. That's correct. Question three. Which island did Captain Cook encounter when seeking the Northwest Passage and that is where he died? Hawaii. It was Hawaii. Question four. What were the names of Franklin Expedition's two ships? The Erebus or Erebus and the Terror. Yes, terrible names for ships. Question five.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
How were indigenous communities able to traverse the Northwest Passage and also later Amundsen? Sleds and mostly sleds. Yeah, and smaller boats. Small boats. Yeah, small boats with animal skins. That's right. Question six. Who was the first woman to be awarded the Royal Geographical Society's Founders Medal in 1860? That was Lady Franklin. It was Lady Jane Franklin. Question seven.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
What supplies might have contributed to the Franklin crew's eventual death? Well, sort of lead in the tins. Yes, contamination. That's right. Well done. Contamination from lead in the tins. That's right. Question eight. What was the Victory Point note?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
On King William Island. It was, and it was Franklin's death being reported. But I'll let you have that. Question nine. Which famous novelist denounced the Inuit reports of cannibalism on the Franklin Expedition? Dickens. It was Dickens. And this question turned for nine out of ten. Which Scandinavian explorer finally navigated the passage in 1906? Amundsen. Nine out of ten. Very good, Stu.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Off the top of my head. Go on. OK. What was the original name of John Cabot?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah, there we go. Yes! Giovan Ciabotto. Ciabotto. I meant Ciabotto. 10 out of 11, Steve Gossett. Yes! 10 out of 11. The legacy continues. Well done, Stu. Thank you very much, Stu. Lovely spending time with you, sort of going through this tricky bit of history. But, I mean, it's fascinating, right? I've enjoyed it enormously.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
If you want more of that, you can check out our episodes with Stu on Blackbeard and ancient medicine, which are sort of medical and maritime too. For more of Dr Vanessa, or Professor Dr Vanessa... Choose our Victorian bodybuilding episode, which is also about masculinity in the 19th century. Sort of similar themes.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear these episodes first, because they come out a month earlier on BBC Sounds. Switch on your notifications, otherwise you won't be told. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
We had the incredible Dr Vanessa Heggy from the University of Birmingham. Thank you, Vanessa.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And in Comedy Corner, we have the stupendous Stu Goldsmith. Thank you, Stu.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we navigate another treacherous historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go and bin all my tin food and scrub my kettle.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Matt Ryan. It was written by Matt Ryan, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Nagoose and our executive editor was James Cook.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yes. Given how inhospitable this environment would have been, why do you think European explorers were so keen to go and stick their flag up this back passage?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
I think you did well with the first answer. The second answer started to veer away a bit. I mean, power and war is pretty good.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
But you're right, money and power and war and the insatiable desire for Chinese porcelain were driving this. And porn as well, that drives everything. Was there any sex in the Arctic? I don't know if there was any sex. Well, maybe.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
We should say, I mean, it wasn't just Europeans who were exploring Northwest Passage. As always on this show, we have to sort of say it's not just European explorers. I mean, indigenous peoples were already sort of exploring this. They'd already discovered it by being born there. They were living there. Yeah, definitely.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah, well, we've done an episode on the Vikings getting to Newfoundland, you know, a thousand years ago. So I guess those interactions continued.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are packing our tins of preserved beef, donning our thermal undies and sailing off in search of the Northwest Passage. And joining me on the good ship, You're Dead to Me, are two very special shipmates.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So it's not big, long ships, not huge, not massive battleships. We're talking about a little coracle, a little canoe. Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
That's a lot of paddling.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Blimey. That is absolutely taking my breath away. I'm just looking at the map going, Scotland's not even on the map.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
So there's a motorway service station in between.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
OK, so we've done some foreshadowing there because we've talked about the 12th century and indigenous communities. But we need to get on to the Europeans because they're the ones with all the sort of drama and danger. The first European voyager was in 1497. And like you, Stu, he had a Bristol connection. You're a Bristolian now by choice.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Do you know who this explorer might have been? 1497, set off from Bristol. Blackbeard.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Oh, God. Yeah, OK. Yeah, it was Cabot, who had a variety of names. We call him John Cabot in England, but he was Zwan Caboto because he was Venetian, which is a different dialect. Was he really? I didn't know that. He was a Venetian.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Zouane Chabotot. Zouane Chabotot. But also, he was also... Zouane Chabotot. He was also Jean Cabot, to the French, and he was John Cabot.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah, that's good. So 1497, Vanessa, he sets off from Bristol. Why? And in what ship? Because he's a Venetian. What's he doing in Bristol?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Much colder than we were expecting, am I to say? Yeah. So John Cabot, or Zwan Cabot, was sent off by Henry VII, Henry Tudor, father of Henry VIII, from Bristol, returns to Bristol and says, I found China, job done. There are more expeditions and they're not, they don't go that well, do they, Vanessa?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
In History Corner, she's Associate Professor in the History of Science and Medicine at the University of Birmingham's Department of Applied Health Science. What a title. You may have read her long-running science column in The Guardian newspaper or her recent book, Higher and Colder, on the history of extreme exploration.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely going to be... You don't want to come back and say, no, it's definitely not China. You probably want to say, could be China. Your Majesty, we've completely failed. You're not going to say that, are you?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah. That money you gave me, wasted. It's gone. Threw it in the sea. I've cut my head off in advance. So you're right. So Giovanni de Verrazzano... thinks he's found the Northwest Passage, he's actually found North Carolina, which actually, of course, is where Blackbeard operated. Ah, of course. We're linking back to your earlier episode. So that was 1523.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Then we get more explorers heading off to chart Newfoundland's coastline, and then they're competing in this sort of 16th century game show, which we might sort of loosely call Claim That Arctic. It is everyone's racing. So let's talk about Martin Frobisher, because he's next up in the list. So who is Frobisher? He's another Englishman?
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And you will definitely remember her from our episode on Victorian bodybuilding. It's Dr Vanessa Heggie. Welcome back, Vanessa.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yeah, I mean, it's a very sad reminder of the sort of cost of these explorations, obviously going out and the danger of it. But also if you're sort of kidnapping people and bringing them back home, that's also pretty cruel.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
If people want to know more about that, we did an episode with Professor Caroline Dodds-Pennock on the Columbian Exchange, which talks about those sort of movements of people and goods and ideas. But let's get back to slightly cheerier notes. Frobisher found some treasures.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Oh, lovely. Naturally.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Yes, but I think he was very keen on going, it's definitely gold, it's gold, gold, gold. Our next contestant is a man called Henry Hudson. Heard the name? No. Okay, that's fair. He's quite famous.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
And in Comedy Corner, he's a sensational stand-up and the host of the brilliant The Comedian's Comedian podcast, which I love. You may have seen him on BBC Live at the Apollo recently or on Conan O'Brien's show, but you will definitely remember him from our back catalogue, including episodes on the history of fandom and Blackbeard the Pirate. It's Stu Goldsmith. Welcome back, Stu.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
You're not far off there, actually, Stu. So he's got a bay named after him, he's got a river named after him. I was going to say, why do you think he went down in history? But falling in a river is a pretty good guess.
You're Dead to Me
Arctic Exploration: the fatal quest for the Northwest Passage
Methane, permafrost, I've got nothing. I enjoyed the attempt. Vanessa, why is this guy so famous? He gets a bay named after him, he gets a river named after him. That must mean he did something heroic, no?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And you'll know her from this very podcast from many, many episodes, including recent highlights, Pythagoras, What a Dude, and the history of Broadway musicals. It's your Dead to Me superstar, Desiree Burch. Welcome back, Desiree.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Oh, man. So Isabella takes things into her own hands and she goes on the run. Does she take any of her kids with her?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And does she escape or does she get tracked down?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
She's been taken in by the Van Wagenens. She's got her daughter Sophia with her. And then she hears that her son Peter has been taken because her husband Thomas has died, Michelle. Peter had been still in enslavement, owned by the Dumonts, and John Dumont had decided to sell him to a slave owner in Alabama. And this is hugely upsetting. And she does something extraordinary, Michelle.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Can you tell us what she does in 1828?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
The amazing thing really now is that Isabella is free. She's been assisted by the Van Wageners. She's still called Isabella Van Wagenen, but she goes off to New York and she now goes to work for white families, but wealthy families as a free woman. And one family is called the Latourettes. They sound quite French to me, Michelle. Is she speaking French now?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And they're very religious, aren't they?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Desiree, you and Michelle have previously covered Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker. Now, Harriet Tubman, obviously an abolitionist, a very famous woman in American history. Are you excited to be back for more abolitionist history? What are your emotions when you hear the word Sojourner Truth?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Boom. But then she finds someone even more interesting. Someone comes to her door calling himself the prophet Matthias. Desiree, who do you think he claimed to be? I'll give you a clue. He's wearing gold robes. He's got a fancy beard when he shows up at her door.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Yeah. And we've done a cult already with Pythagoras. So this is our second cult together, Desiree.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And Isabella is trying to preach, Michelle, but is not allowed to preach in this cult. So that's not ideal.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Yeah. And the commune collapses in 1834, Desiree. So only a year later. But Isabella stays loyal to Matthias. She lends him money. She gets him a lawyer.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Even his own wife hadn't joined the commune. But Isabella is still team Matthias. It's a bit of a red flag, isn't it, when the wife won't join? But.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Important thing to say here, Michelle, I think, is that after the collapse of the commune, Sojourner Truth emerges as an identity. The woman we, you know, the name of the episode, the woman people have heard of, the person Desiree coloured in at school. How does Isabella Van Wagenen become Sojourner Truth?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Oh, she believes the world's going to end.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Not going to cut it. She'd gone from Isabella Bumfrey to Isabella Waggonen. She's now Sojourner Truth. And soon she was living in another commune, Desiree.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
He loves a guy in a beard and robes. But this one's less problematic, Michelle. This is the Northampton Association for Education and Industry, which sounds like a kind of local government thing. What is this commune?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And Desiree, this is where she meets another very famous American abolitionist. Do you want to guess who? Can it please be Harriet Tubman?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
It sounds like an eye condition. I'm biopic. I can't see out of my left eye. Yeah, I don't know.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Yeah, well done. Yeah, very good.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Yeah, yeah. I mean, Harriet was probably busy sort of, you know... It was busy shooting people.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Exactly. And Frederick Douglass, we've done an episode on it. Listeners, if you want to check that out, it's a really good one. Douglass is a renowned orator. He's a brilliant speaker and incredibly articulate. You might assume that Douglass and Sojourner Truth get on really well, but There's sort of tension, Michelle.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Who's the headline act? Is it Frederick Douglass or is it Sojourner Truth?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I think American listeners are going to immediately have a Desiree response of, I know stuff! Hang on, do I know stuff? Do I know anything? Perhaps it's a childhood memory coming back.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because we can lift both of these up as heroes and as pioneers. But actually, there's a sort of fractious relationship there. So Jenna Truth does copy one of Douglas's better ideas, i.e. a book. He writes a sort of very, very famous book, sells quite a lot of copies, 4,500. And six months later, Jenna Truth sort of announces that she's going to do a book.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
What's her book called, Michelle?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Yeah, put it on the front cover. You must buy this book. It's very important. Like, seriously, you guys, buy this book. So it's published in 1850. So it takes four or five years or so to actually get this book down. And it's an autobiography with two voices, which is a slightly unusual idea. But there is a PR strategy in that The Journal of Truth quite cleverly gets a celebrity endorsement.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
She gets the endorsement of Harriet Beecher Stowe. Do you know Harriet Beecher Stowe, Desiree? Uncle Tom's Cabin?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Yeah, okay. Huge, huge bestseller. Another abolitionist. By getting an endorsement, that sells copies. And later, Michelle Stowe publishes an article about meeting Sojourner Truth. It's an interesting document, but it's tricky.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Outside of the States, I think probably less familiar name. She's perhaps most famous for the quote, Ain't I a Woman, which has been used by feminist activists for years, including by Bell Hooks for her debut book title. But there are no big movie biopics, biopics, whatever we're calling it. There are no big TV dramas. If you go on IMDb, you're not getting much back, which is quite surprising.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Yeah, you want that endorsement, you just have to sort of cringe your way through it, I guess. In 1852, just the year before that kind of big interview with Harriet Beecher Stowe, or that big moment with Harriet Beecher Stowe, in 1852, Sojourner and Frederick Douglass clashed again
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Because Douglass was starting to sort of suggest that taking up arms might be necessary for the emancipation of African-Americans and that perhaps God had abandoned them. And Sojourner manages to shut him up in public in front of an audience by saying, Frederick, is God dead? What a line.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
He's literally silenced by this line, Desiree. Can you imagine her with hecklers in a comedy club? So Jonah, truth, live and loud.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So in the 1850s, with the book out, Sojourner Truth went on a book tour. Her name means traveling, so she's living up to her name. She's traveling. And she's fighting for women's rights as well as an abolitionist, which is a really important distinction. And she meets Michelle William Lloyd Garrison. She meets a British MP, George Thompson.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So there's an international movement here, which is interesting. Is she famous by this point? Is she renowned? Are people flocking to go and see her talk?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So she's funny, Desiree. And she's 5'11". She's got this deep, strong voice.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So what was Sojourner's journey? How did she go from enslavement to crusading campaigner? And was Ain't I a Woman even her line? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Michelle, we'll start at the beginning. When and where was Sojourner Truth born? And I'm presuming that wasn't her name at birth.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
There we go. Now, I think we have to get to the most important speech that she is said to have given, which is, of course, the entire woman speech, Michelle. And this is an iconic speech. Does she say that? What do we know about the speech? Can you give us a potted history of it?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
We'll talk more about it in the nuance window. I know, Michelle. But the thing that follows the speech soon after is the American Civil War. What did Sojourner Truth do in the Civil War?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
She met three presidents in her life, Desiree. She met Abraham Lincoln, but she also met Andrew Johnson and then Ulysses S. Grant as well. So she's, you know, she's moving in high circles. How do you think the meeting went with Abe Lincoln, Desiree? Well, have you ever...
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So you think she played Sojourner Truth or Dare with the president? She was, you know, a bit of a risky game. Yes, and he was like, dare. Dare, yeah. Michelle, I don't think we know how it went necessarily, but we get a sense perhaps that the person she was with felt that he was rude to her.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Yeah, I suppose for Sojourner Truth, her saying he was amenable to me, that works in her favor. So maybe she wants that meeting to be well received.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So like Douglas, Sojourner Truth used photography very carefully, very cleverly to sort of disseminate her image. But after the war, was she an important part of the conversations in the rebuilding of America, Michelle? Did Sojourner Truth get her due after the crisis had ended?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
When you say land for African-Americans, are you saying that she wanted to create like reservations almost for people who'd been freed?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And so the end of her life, I mean, she's already elderly in her 70s. She lived into her 80s. But at the end of her life, how did her life end?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
But sometimes the greats need a rival to push them further on. Of course. So 1883, 86 years old. It's a long, long, extraordinary life. It's been quite the sojourn we've had, Desiree. Any final thoughts before we do our nuance window?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Beautifully summarized. And also, I just love the fact that she had a Dutch accent. You just don't imagine that, right?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Time now for the nuance window. This is where Desiree and I listen in rapturous silence for two minutes while Dr. Michelle preaches to us about something we need to know about Sojourner Truth. So my stopwatch is ready. Please take it away, Dr. Michelle.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Thank you so much, Michelle. Desiree?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
That's amazing. And also, I think sometimes we don't always know what people said exactly in speeches, but you can sort of see the effect they had on people. It's almost like you can see where the ripples are in the water and the pebble is gone, but the ripples are still there.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And that's quite nice that with Sojourner Truth, maybe she didn't say, ain't I a woman, but she definitely communicated that concept to people. So it's still amazing. So what do you know now? So time now for our quiz. This is the So What Do You Know Now? This is for Desiree to see how much she has learned. And Desiree, I mean, at this point, we know that full marks is guaranteed with you.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
You are our quiz champion.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
I mean, I'm sure you'll get most of them, but let's see if 10 is doable.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
All right, let's do that.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Fine. We'll start with an easy one. Question one. What was Sojourner Truth's first language? Oh, Dutch. Very good. Okay. Question two. What did Sojourner Truth do when a cult leader, Matthias, appeared at her door saying he was Jesus Christ?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Question three. What was the name of Sojourner's son whose freedom she successfully sued for in a court of law?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Question four. Why did she adopt the name Sojourner Truth? What did it mean to her?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Very good. Question five. Which fellow abolitionist and longtime rival did Truth first meet at the Northampton Association?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Question six. What is unusual about Truth's autobiography?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And it's Olive Gilbert. Question seven. What famous line from a speech given by Sojourner Truth at the Ohio Women's Rights Convention might have been misquoted?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And maybe with a Dutch accent too.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So there we go. Question eight. What technology did Sojourner Truth use to disseminate her image?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Question nine. What was notable about Sojourner Truth's appearance and physicality?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Because she did all the work.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And question 10. This for a perfect 10. So Jenna Truth met three U.S. presidents. Can you name two of them?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Perfect. Well done. Desiree Birch, never in doubt, 10 out of 10. Well done.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Listener, if you want more from Desiree and Michelle, check out our episodes on Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker, both extraordinary women. And for more abolitionist history, why not listen to our episode on Frederick Douglass, who was a very important and interesting man.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Exactly that. I'm a big Douglas fan. But yes, I think there was genuine rivalry and respect. I think they're in a relationship with Sojourner Truth. But anyway, listen to that one too. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we follow in the footsteps of another forgotten firebrand.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
But for now, I'm off to go and grow my beard, cover myself in gold and convince my neighbours that I am Jesus Christ. Hello. Bye. This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Madeleine Bracey. It was written by Madeleine Bracey, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
That's fascinating. Desiree, do you know what language Isabella grew up speaking?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Dutch as her primary first language. And you said 10 siblings, possibly 11 siblings. We're not sure. She's one of 12 or 10. So the parents have been enslaved. The children are enslaved. And the person who enslaves them is Colonel Johannes Hardenberg. And you said he's wealthy. What happened when he died?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner and I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are strapping on our sturdiest walking boots and hiking across America to learn about renowned 19th century abolitionist, orator and civil rights activist Sojourner Truth.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
It's a horrible, horrible childhood. And she was sold to an English speaking family, the Neelys. And she didn't she didn't speak English. Were they dicks about it, though? I imagine they weren't hugely supportive being a slave owning family.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And to help us, we have two very special guests. in History Corner. She's an assistant professor in African-American history at Cornell University. Her research focuses on black and indigenous histories, including the history of racial formation and identity in America. And you might remember her from our previous episodes of this show about Harriet Tubman and Josephine Baker.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
And then in 1810, Isabella was sold again for $175. Who is she sold to this time?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So, I mean, that's a strange dynamic, I suppose, that she's there for nearly 18 years and she's fond of the man who's enslaved her. That's complicated stuff, Desiree, isn't it?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Who is she married to? And is it her choice? How does this work?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
In 1826, Desiree, something important happens in Isabella's life, in many lives, actually. Do you want to guess what it is? Or maybe you know what it is. 1826 in New York's history.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
It's Dr. Michelle Crestfield. Welcome back, Michelle.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
So yeah, yeah. Bang on. Michelle, 4th of July, 1827, which then comes into act in 28th.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Michelle, this state of New York abolishes slavery or what is the definition?
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
Official Cornell degree for you, Desiree.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
It is. We're sort of series one reunion in some ways. It's lovely. And in Comedy Corner, she needs no introduction. She's a comedian, actor, and writer. You'll have seen her all over the TV on Taskmaster, Frankie Boyle's New World Order, The Horn Section TV show, and Too Hot to Handle.
You're Dead to Me
Sojourner Truth: American abolitionist, suffragist, preacher
That's heartbreaking. And also, presumably that means the children could be taken away from her still.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
But Assyriology is named after the fact that there's this incredible library, which dates to when roughly? The 7th century BC, so the 600s. Amazing. And so Nineveh, the royal library was discovered in what we now call Mosul in Iraq. 30,000 cuneiform tablets, which is amazing. They were brought to the British Museum, the home of Iraqi history. Yes.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
But this wasn't the first time the massive collection of ancient cuneiform tablets had been put in a museum, right? Because this is what the library is. This was already a collection of knowledge by someone saying, this stuff's old.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Wow. So this is from about 650 BCE. So it's very late in the grand sweep of Mesopotamian history, but it is earlier than, like, it's earlier than Socrates.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So, you know, when we say ancient, it's ancient, but it's really late in...
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So it's kind of, I'm doing, I'm slightly struggling to work out how to frame that. But yeah, we've got Ashurbanipal. I like to call him Ashurbanishampal. I don't know why. I always imagine him in my head.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
I highly recommend it. And you will remember her from our episode on the ancient Babylonians. It's Dr. Moody Al-Rashid. Welcome, Moody. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Delighted to have you back. And in Comedy Corner, he's a fantastic comedian, actor and author. You'll know him from Dastmaster, Live at the Apollo. Have a news for you from his two Netflix comedy specials.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
I'm going to have to say it again just to make sure people understand, but this is a Neo-Assyrian king saying, this stuff belongs in a museum. It's 2,500 years old. So it's an ancient person going, this is archaeology.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Or this is knowledge. That's mad for us, right?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So the Library of Nineveh was this incredible compilation of all the knowledge, 2,500 years worth, put into one place, and then in the year 612 BCE, it was destroyed. Oh, no. Along came some baddies who sacked the city, and that was fantastic news for you, Moody.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Because they set the building on fire and it baked the clay.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So yeah, so the next episode of Great British Bake Off, that's what we want to see.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
OK, so we know how cuneiform was deciphered and we know how it was preserved. The library burned down baking the knowledge, which is extraordinary. Let's now discover how cuneiform was first invented. Phil, you've already mentioned the alphabets. We know it has letters in it. Cuneiform isn't phonetic.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
But in the very, very, very late old Persian, there was a tiny element of phonetic in there, a little bit, a little bit alphabetic, a little bit. That's right. So just right at the end, it changed a tiny bit. But the system is not phonetic. Is that right?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Two, count them. Maybe you've read his side-splitting book, Sidesplitter, which I loved on audiobook. But you'll definitely remember him from our previous episodes of You're Dead to Me. Most recently on the Terracotta Warriors and the History of Kung Fu, which sounds like a film title but isn't. Returning for a triumphant fifth appearance in...
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
How many characters are there in cuneiform? If you were to be a scribe and train, how many would you have to learn?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yeah. Can we see, can we show Phil some?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
We haven't smuggled anything out of a library because it's probably too valuable. So we've got some pictures on an iPad. The iPad is stolen. Just add the facade.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
more complicated characters but for those first three it is just like just marking yeah just marking but that was some very good philology phil well done oh thanks i feel like you really like you've just brought the level of the podcast up there i think everyone's very impressed um you know we're now talking about a technology that's 5350 years old the obvious question is why clay why you know the why is clay the technology
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
More people, more stuff means you need to write things down. Mm-hm. So the invention of writing is an accounting system. It's like a software for keeping track of your receipts. Exactly. And then it turns into literature. Is that fair? That's exactly right. OK.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Phil, together we've tackled mighty military matters. We've done the Borgias. We've done Genghis Khan. We've done the Terracotta Warriors and Kung Fu. Today we're going quite nerdy. What does the word cuneiform mean to you? Spiritually. Emotionally.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
We should talk about who can read this. I'm assuming most people are not literate. We've got multiple societies here. It's very generic to just say Bronze Age Mesopotamia, but who can read and write cuneiform? Is it a very highly skilled thing? Can you have basic functional literacy if you're an ordinary fisherman? Who's got that knowledge?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Keep it to the masses. This is just us. You said we have women scribes. The most famous one, I suppose, would be the daughter of King Sargon. So Sargon the Great of Arkady is a very famous sort of
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
He's around like 4,000 years ago. But his daughter is the first woman author in history?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
The earliest named author in history is a princess writing 4,300 years ago. Exactly. Wow. That's really cool. It's very cool.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
The tune is Sean Paul. It's Ashurbanipal's Sean Paul, yeah. That would actually be fantastic. Okay. And so how do you, like, can you send messages? Are there letters? Is there a postal system? Can you communicate with tablets and cuneiform, I suppose, is the question?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So in the 19th century, when you get the invention of telegraphy and you'd go to the telegraphy office and you dictate your thing and someone would put into Morse code and then someone else would translate it for them. And it's the same thing in, but 4,000 years ago. So you're dictating it. So it's like, hey, Siri, but instead it's, hey, scribe. Describe. Putting the Siri in a Siri.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
I didn't catch that. I'm sorry, I did not hear. Please say that again. What kind of things do you think people were dictating in their tablets, Phil? In the letters to each other. Yeah, what kind of stuff do you think is getting jotted down?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Actually, yeah. There must have been loads. The Hymn to Nankazi is one of the earliest things ever written down, and that's a song to a goddess about beer. And I know that one of the earliest ever Kineoform tablets we have is about beer. Mm-hmm. That's right. It's amazing. I feel like nothing has changed. Can you tell us about this ancient, is it one tablet? Is it fragments? What have we got?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
I mean, Moody, I don't want to give him too many sort of stars early on, but I feel that was quite good.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So he's a beer magnate. He's like... He's like, Mr. Heineken, he's in charge of all of the beer of the city.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yes, because beer is a currency, almost.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And the font for old is just like a really big font.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So Kashim might be one of the first named people in history.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
That's great. So cool. Okay. So there we go. So beer is the history. The history of the world is beer, basically. Beer and writing. Slightly drunk texting. So we have hundreds of thousands. I was a medieval historian by training, and I used to complain that we had too many documents. But you have hundreds of thousands of Kinoform tablets. So you haven't read them all.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
That's extraordinary because that gives us such a window into daily life.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Which is arguably the first great story. It's the earliest great literature in human history that's recorded. And we have it because of cuneiform.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And do we have it in complete form, the Gilgamesh?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
This is where I have a go at getting what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And, well, I think Phil has outclassed us all. You might remember a mention of cuneiform on our Babylonians episode we talked about before with Moody and Kay Curd. Maybe you've seen some cuneiform tablets in the British Museum or in the Ashmolean Museum in the States. I think Paris has some.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Something we do have, which is really charming, I think, and quite interesting, we have a series of letters between a wife and a merchant husband who are in different cities and they're writing to each other. What do you imagine they're writing to each other, Phil?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So who are our protagonists? Is it Anaya?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yeah. I feel like they might need couples therapy.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Well, as I said, a Kinnear film was developed as an accountancy system early on, but it becomes just a way to communicate everything and anything that people want to say to each other, which means literature, letters, language, astronomy, petty complaints, legal trials, presumably.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
More likely, you've seen something resembling cuneiform, well, probably as a prop in a video game or in a movie. But to be honest, I don't think cuneiform is something that most people are visualising. I think, Phil, you did really well, because you then mentioned hieroglyphs. I think people go to hieroglyphs when they think of old scripts.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Like making, you know... And they're not getting the money back. Yeah, and they're doing a lot of work, so kind of... Meanwhile, Inaya is in Turkey having a great time.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
I was going to say, he's probably got a second family, hasn't he? He's like, who's this woman writing to me? I'm trying to play with my new kids. So how did scribes learn all these systems? Do we have evidence of their training?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So that might have just been an honest mistake. It's just a very hungry student.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Oh, cool. I feel like the teeth marks justifies my earlier Great British Bake Off joke. Oh, yes. I feel like clay bake, tray bake. That's the third week in the series. That's Prue Leith trying out one of the things. Yeah, exactly. Just breaking a tooth on it. That's been overproofed, I think, yeah. So we've got schoolboys doodling.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
We've got a doodle of a man sitting down with a long stick and we think it's the teacher.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
What language do they speak and what language are they writing in if they're training to be scribes?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So it's like a Victorian schoolboy learning Latin so that he'd go and become a lawyer.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yeah, but you knew triangle stuff, so that's kind of cool. So anyway, the questions we have to answer. What exactly was cuneiform? What do all these clay tablets actually tell us? What do they say? And who first figured out how to decipher it? Let's find out. Right, Dr Moody. Can we start with some quick basic definitions? Because I'm feeling very basic. What is cuneiform?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Is Aramaic derived from Akkadian and then Aramaic is the father of several languages? I think is that sort of the chain, is it maybe?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yeah, so the Neo-Assyrian period. And then Persian comes in and then you're like, oh, there's a whole other language.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
But they're still learning Sumerian scribes as kids. You're learning a dead, dead language by that point. It's like so dead.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
The scribes are sort of, they're also being used in religion, right? So religion is also important. And we talked about some of this when we did our Babylonians episode with Kay, but I think we just probably reiterate for Phil's benefit. What does cuneiform teach us about sacred texts and the understanding of gods and monsters, ghosts, planets and stars?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Would you take that? Would you mean two months living as a king if you know you're going to die at the end?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And there's also divination. So telling the future by using sheep. Phil, how would you go about telling the future with sheep?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Am I pronouncing it right? Yeah. How did it get its name? What does its name mean?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yeah, it's the liver, isn't it? They're looking at the liver. But what I find really interesting is that writing is still very important in this process. Can you tell us why?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So you said that kinetic form is quite a stable technology. We had the earliest technology at 3,350. Mm-hmm. The absolute latest we go to is in the Roman era, right? The latest cuneiform is like, what, 79 CE?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Coincidence. I was going to say, maybe the volcano erupted in one night. I feel like this is a sign. Let's just put down the G'day everyone.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Okay, so that's amazing. So it's a stable technology. It changes a little bit over the time in terms of the font, in terms of how it's written, but you can still read it through that time.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And so Akkadian then is followed by Aramaic, followed by Persian, followed by other languages, and off we go. There's one more thing to mention. Phil, as our expert philologist here, what do you think the cruciform monument of Manish Tushu was? Oh, no. I was just reading about this. You're sick of hearing, aren't you?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
The reason I've asked is because it's a forgery? Yeah. It sort of gets to the heart of what's quite interesting about cuneiform, it's that this is a deliberately new thing that's meant to look old.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
It's a forgery. It's basically saying we've always been here. So it's a Christian cross.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
It's sort of the era of kind of the Persian, it's the 6th century B.C. So it's in the 500s B.C. And it's them claiming Fake ancestry saying, no, no, we've been here for like 1,800 years. And it's a brand new... It's like dipping it in like when you were a kid and you had to make an old document and you dipped it in tea to make it look old. It's that.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Fantastic. So there you go, Phil. 3,500 years of technology, of script, a very impressive history. You had to impress it. Yeah, it was really good. I got it. Yeah, so you now know about cuneiform. Yeah, I can speak cuneiform. No, no, you can't speak it.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
This is where Phil and I sit quietly in the classroom and we carve our clay tablets for two minutes while Dr. Moody tells us something we need to know about cuneiform's history. Take it away, Dr. Moody.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Phil to see how much he's learned. I should have written more notes. I've just written Sumerian. I have to say, there's not many triangles on that page. How are you feeling? Confident?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
We've got ten questions. Historically, you're very good at these quizzes. I believe in you. Okay, question one. Cuneiform gets its name from the Latin word for which shape? Triangle. It is. Triangle or wedge shape. There we go. We're off to a flyer. Question two. Where in the world was cuneiform developed and used? Mesopotamia. It is, absolutely. Between the two rivers. Question three.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
The rock-carved inscriptions at Behistun about Darius the Great were transcribed and translated by which English soldier, commonly known as the father of Assyriology? Rawlinson. It was Henry Rawlinson. Well done. Well remembered. Question four, what are the earliest surviving cuneiform tablets about? Our earliest named person in history, possibly. Oh, a brewer, a beer maker.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yeah, that's it, beer, absolutely. 135,000 litres of beer. I'm doing my best. It's a lot of beer. Good night. Question five, why was cuneiform needed during ancient sheep liver divination rituals?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
With a yes, no question, which has to be written down. Yes. Well done. And the liver was also the tablet of the gods, wasn't it? That was a lovely line. Question six. What doodles have been found on a schoolboy's cuneiform tablet?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
You said it was developed over 3,000 BCE, so it's over 5,000 years old.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
The child was hungry. Question seven. Can you name one of the languages written in Kineiform? Akkadian. Very good. We could have Sumerian, Old Persian, Alamite, Hittite, Hurrian. You went with Akkadian, which I think is a good one. Question eight. What is the cruciform monument of Manistushu? Oh.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yeah, to say we've been here much longer than we claim to be. You're absolutely right. Question nine. The Royal Library of Nineveh was created by King Ashurbanipal Shampo to house 30,000 clay tablets. What happened to it? It was burned. It was. Burned down. And everything was taken to the British Museum. And question ten. When was the last known cuneiform inscription created? 79 or 80 CE. Amazing.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Possibly even older than that, like 5,300 years old, give or take.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
That's fantastic. Well done. Oh, well done, Moody, for teaching him. Yes, thank you. That's some technical stuff we've covered there, but just so interesting.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
It's a husband and wife arguing, it's a mum trying to get her kids back, it's a boss saying, where's my order? It's not end time. It's really, it's proper human life.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Well, thank you so much for sharing that with us today. And thank you also, Phil, for your knowledge and wisdom and comedy. Oh, thanks for having me. It's been fascinating. Yes, we're great. And after today's episode, you want more Mesopotamia with Moody, check out our episode on the ancient Babylonians.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And to hear more from Philly Philly Wang Wang, listen to his episodes on the Borgias, Chinggis Khan, the terracotta warriors, and the history of Kung Fu. We've given you quite a weird curriculum so far, haven't we, Phil? Yeah, it's a varied curriculum. I feel like we're training you for some sort of purpose. An enormous battle. Yes, exactly.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds, where you will hear the show a month before it arrives on other platforms. So there we go. There's a bonus for you. And switch on your sounds notifications too, so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
We have the marvellous Dr Moody Al-Rashid from the University of Oxford. Thank you, Moody.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
It's been a pleasure, and in Comedy Corner, as ever, we have the fantastic Philology Wang. Thank you, Phil. Thank you for using my full name. It's been a pleasure. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we decode another message from the past.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
But for now, I'm off to go and carve an emoji inscribed Rosetta Stone to help future archaeologists, and it's going to involve an awful lot of rude emojis.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Hannah Cusworth and Matt Ryan. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And then they're like, guys, triangles.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Sumerians, Akkadians, then Babylonians, then Elamites, Hittites, Neo-Assyrians, and then Persia.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Someone needs to do a song. There needs to be like a kind of... Like an alphabet song. Like an alphabet song. Like, if only Sesame Street could just do this for us, that'd be great. The Neo-Sumerians. The Neo-Assyrians. Neo-Assyrians.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Phil, we're going to mix things up here. We're going to go to modern history now. We're going to start with only a couple of hundred years ago when they deciphered Kineiform. Can you guess the nationality of the man who deciphered this ancient Near Eastern technology? Oh. Nationality for us, please, Phil. French. French. It's a good guess. His name was Henry Rawlinson. Okay.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And he was from England, as all the best people are. That's what I wanted to say.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
It's usually an Englishman or Frenchman, in fairness, in this period in history. Moody, what was an Englishman doing in Iran? Was he doing a classic bit of Empire? Hello, I've just come to do a bit of Empire.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So he was invited in by the Shah of Persia.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Normally it's a sort of invasion thing. So that's quite nice. They actually said, welcome, please. Phil, the study of languages is called philology.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And your name is Phil. Yeah. I feel like therefore you have an innate skill in this.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
How would you go about decoding an ancient script? Because you're an engineer, right?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So you think laterally. Yeah, sure. And you're Henry Rawlinson. How do you start decoding that?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Moody, it sounds like Rawlinson used the Phil Wang technique.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Are you besmirching an Englishman's name, Moody?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
He kicked it out of the line. He showed up and said, I've got this, lads. Thank you very much. Is Behistun sort of the Rosetta equivalent that Phil mentioned? Is that like the key discovery?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And this inscription at Behistun talks about a very famous king called Darius of Persia. Darius the Great, have you heard of him? No. No, he's a sort of big name in video games. I thought maybe you'd sort of fought him on Total War at some point. He's a couple of hundred years before Alexander the Great. And he was a big conqueror and he fought 19 battles to crush rebellions.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And this inscription says... I, King Darius of Persia. I guess. Of, I guess.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Did some crushing. And I'm going to stick it up here in Elamite and Persian and Akkadian.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Okay. And Henry Rawlinson decoded it with help. Yes.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
It's like on a cliff or something. It's like really high up.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Hello and welcome to Your Dent to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we're bouncing back to the Bronze Age with our styluses and clay tablets to learn all about the first ever writing system or script called cuneiform.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
You've already qualified that he wasn't necessarily the sole most important man in this story. So who else should be added to the checklist?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Right. Phil, how do you think Henry Rawlinson took to Hinks's work? Do you think he welcomed this other man coming along with new ideas?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Yeah, you think they might rap songs about each other.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
I think you're bang on, right? I mean, Moody, he tries to crush his career, right?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
Have you ever been tempted to crush your rival comedian's career? I mean, you're the only Phil in comedy, right?
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So Rawlinson and Hinks were squabbling, and in 1857, so 20 years after Rawlinson first went out to Persia, I suppose that's what it would have been called at the time, the Royal Asiatic Society... I don't know what they are, but they sort of intervened and said, right, OK, we're going to officially declare that cuneiform has been decoded. They announced this how, Moody?
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
OK. Phil, how do you think the competition was judged? What kind of... Talk me through the rounds.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And to help us decipher the ancient story, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's an honorary fellow at Wolfson College, University of Oxford. She's an Assyriologist who researches and teaches on the history of Mesopotamia, Cuneiform and the Akkadian language. She has a wonderful brand new book that I loved called Between Two Rivers, Ancient Mesopotamia and the Birth of History.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
How did this competition work? Is it live translation spelling bee, as Phil has suggested, which I'd love to see.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And this is the Akkadian language now.
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Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
So the three languages were Elamite, Akkadian and Old Persian. All three languages have been decoded.
You're Dead to Me
Cuneiform: the world’s first writing system
And this invents a new discipline of which you are a practitioner.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And Henri gives it to Diane.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
I mean, Henri would sit on Diane's lap at court and play the guitar.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, not her on his lap. He would sit on her lap and strum his guitar. Fascinating. Like a sort of emo kid.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And he would touch her breasts in front of people. Like he was touching her up and playing his guitar. He was strumming away.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And the problem, of course, from a dynastic point of view, and this is where it gets sad, is that there's a fertility problem that Catherine is not conceiving a child. So she can't provide the air that is needed. And so that's the pressure as well.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yes, quaffing donkey piss is not really going to set the mood, is it?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, the ancient Olympics and the Battle of Salamis. Welcome back to Chaparral, Sandy.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And I can only say the first half. So something we haven't said actually is Henri is not the dauphin. Dauphin means the heir. The dauphin is the person who's going to inherit the throne. He is the spare. He is the Prince Harry.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
His older brother, François, is the Prince William, the kind of the heir to the throne, the dauphin.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
No. So he's the backup prince until suddenly he isn't.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Francois died tragically, suspiciously, Chappie.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
The Italian secretary is the one who takes the fall.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Because he's got a book on toxicology in his library. He's got a book called How to Poison People 101.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So the Italian guy is called Monte Caccioli, I think.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And so that's Francois as the secretary. So his death is pretty dramatic, Chappie. Do you know how he is executed?
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
I mean, that's certainly a nice way to go if you have to. No, he's ripped apart by horses.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
It's pretty horrible. Catherine not ripped apart by horses, which is good because it'd be a short podcast. So she doesn't go down for the crime, but there are people who believe that she might be implicated, but they can't prove it.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Go for it because I think it's really interesting. The Pope dies. Yeah. Which is interesting. So Pope Clement VII dies, her great uncle.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
She was. She invented side saddle or she pioneered?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
You are intelligent. You're a very intelligent person.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Shafi, your face right now.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
You should film this podcast.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Like a fluffer. Like a fluffer, yeah.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And drinking donkey piss, of course.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Not just donkey piss, but also wearing cow dung poultices all over the body as well. And grounding up stag antler horn as well.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
You grind it up and you drink it. Disgusting.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Okay. We've never had a sort of job swap before on the podcast.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And they have how many children? Ten. Ten.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So the ten children, we'll have to rattle through them because we haven't got all day. So the ten children, the sons, so seven survive. The sons are François, Charles, Henri, Hercule.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah. And then the daughters are Elizabeth... Elizabeth. Claude and Margaret. Yeah. Who marries Henri of Navarre, which will become important in the future. And Elizabeth will marry Philip II of Spain, also important in the future. So she's done her dynastic duty, Chappie. Ten kids, seven survive. But in 1547, King François I died.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So the kind of the king who had sort of taken under his wing and taught her to ride.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, that's it. But she is elevated. Her husband is now the king of France. So she is the queen of France.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, OK. So is this where we find Catherine de' Medici, Queen Consort of France? Is this where she learns the game of politics?
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Okay. Well, neither can I. Do you know the name Catherine de' Medici? She's quite famous from history.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And Diane's also getting older. And famously, Diane died in a very interesting way, which has been proven by toxicology. She drank gold. She believed it was the eternal youth serum. And so she literally guzzled gold and they found it in her bones.
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Anyway, so Catherine has reclaimed Calais from the English, which is a great humiliation for the English in 1558. Henri marries off his son, Dauphin Françoise, to the Duke of Guise's niece, and her name is famous to history. She's Mary, Queen of Scots. Her daughter-in-law is Mary, Queen of Scots. Catherine...
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
But we'll do Mary another day. Different episode.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Well, they didn't like each other that much. There was a tension. There was a push-pull.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Catherine is now learning about oratory. She's learning about politics. She's also learning about another O, the occult. Shappi, have you ever heard of Nostradamus?
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Nostradamus was one of her advisors.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, he does feel very medieval.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, but he's banging around at the French court for some reason.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Nobby. In 1555, Nobby Nostradamus prophesies to his queen. He says, the young lion will overcome the old. In a field of combat, in a single fight, he will pierce his eyes in a golden cage, two wounds in one. He then dies a cruel death. Now, what do you think that sounds like, Shappi?
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Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
It does. It's a jousting injury. And that literally happens. Now, I'm not saying Nostradamus is true. He might have just, you know, cold reading, whatever. But supposedly Catherine also dreamed of it. So supposedly she has a nightmare vision that her husband's going to die in a joust. And she begs him not to go in the joust.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
He goes in the joust against Montgomery, who injures the king in the first joust.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, the lance goes through his visor, through his face, through his eye, splinters into the brain, and he... He died in ten days. Henri, her husband, is dead, which means Diane de Poitiers... Out?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
She is Italian. Well, half Italian, half French. We'll get to that. So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Catherine de' Medici has popped up on TV screens quite a few times in recent years, most recently played as a Machiavellian operator by Samantha Morton in The Serpent Queen.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So Henri is dead, the king is dead, long live the king. Her son is now king.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Right, so Mary, queen of Scots, is now queen of France. Francois is king of France, but he's only 15. Shappi, you've got a teenage boy.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
OK, how would he do at ruling the country?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So what level of power does the king have compared to the mother, Catherine de' Medici, who's now really running the show?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So the Guises, G-U-I-S-E-S.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
There's also another family who are jockeying at court. So we've got the Guises family. So that's Mary's uncles. They are pretty, pretty scary blokes. There's also the Bourbons who make delicious biscuits. They're led by Antoine, king of Navarre, which is Spain or sort of near Spain, Navarre.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So Antoine and his brother Louis Condé. So you've got the Bourbon family, you've got the Guises family. They're on opposite sides politically and religion-wise.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And the Guises effectively kidnapped François. Yeah. They sort of sweep into the palace and they sort of stick him in a cupboard and kind of rule for him.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Maybe you will remember her as the scary mother-in-law in the wildly inaccurate but distinctively costumed Netflix series Reign, all about Mary, Queen of Scots. Or if video games are more your thing, you might know her as one of the leaders in Civilisation VI. But what about the real story of Catherine's life? Was she really as scheming as the TV dramas make out?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah. OK. OK, so the Guises and Catherine are sharing power at court. Catherine doesn't have that much power. But the Guises renege on their loans. They cut their pensions. They don't pay the soldiers. They are not good at running the country. People don't like them, right? They send troops off to Scotland because of Mary, Queen of Scots.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So the French are starting to go, hang on a minute. But they also, of course, they're cracking down on the Protestants because the Boardmans are the Protestants.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And the Guises are Catholics. Then we have more bad news. Francois II suddenly becomes very unwell, Shepi.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And Catherine, having seen her, or seen many people in her life die, knows what's about to happen.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah. And she has to pull the emergency sort of parachute button and prepare the next one. She's sort of saying goodbye to one king and trying to prep the next one.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Well, OK, so your 15-year-old, your teenage boy would plan town centres. What would a nine-year-old do? Ask his mummy. Exactly.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah. Which son is this then?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
We do now have the French Wars of Religion.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And these are incredibly serious. And we are a comedy show, so we can't be too flippant here. But they kill over 2 million people.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Three decades short, but millions of people die in these wars of religion between Catholic factions and Huguenots. And Catherine's... sort of reign. I mean, she doesn't reign, but she's ruling.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
We have to now put this into the context of the time, right? So we have this horrible series of wars that last for 30 years, but they don't initially last for 30 years. They last for one year initially, and then there's a peace treaty.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yes. It's expensive. It's terrifying. You can't trust who's on your team. Exactly. You don't want wars ever. But we have a horrible massacre in 1562 at Vassy where the Huguenot worshippers... It's the Guises who are going to kill the Huguenots for worshipping.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
It's horrific in France. It's devastating. But also foreign powers get involved. So Philip the King of Spain sends 13,000 soldiers to the Catholic side. Elizabeth of England sends 6,000 men to defend the Huguenot and Prince Condé. The Duke of Guise is then assassinated on Orléans in 1563. There's a peace treaty, the Edict of Amboise. And then that treaty does not last at all.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And what's it like to have a pope as your uncle? Let's find out. Right, Estelle, we'll start at the beginning. Actually, let's start before the beginning. You've heard of the Medici family, Chappie, actually. The name rang a bell, but you weren't sure on the pronunciation. Oh.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And this war continues until 1598. From 1562 to 1598. So let's just sort of park that there and say, this is the political context in the middle of Catherine's rule is horrifying wars between... And her sons, yeah.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, yeah. So it's expensive, it's devastating, it's horrific. But let's do something funny because it's a comedy show.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Okay, let's try and perk you up. Shappi, what do you think Queen Catherine's flying squadron was like?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
They did have pigeons. So you're thinking what, carrier pigeon?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
They're preying on people, but they're not birds of prey.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Well, I mean, maybe the geysers would call them birds, but no.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
It's a sort of spy network of hot ladies.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So that was our fun detour. Now back to the wars of religion.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Sorry. Thanks for that. Sorry, Shafi. I mean, the horrifying event, the key event is called St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. It's in 1572.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Catherine is often blamed for this.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Because he'd been assassinated.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
There's no one in the 16th century who's a nice person in power. Like, you have to be cruel. You have to be ruthless. You have to be ruthless.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, that's how power works in the 16th. I mean, people have often commented she's very Cersei Lannister. That's the very Game of Thrones. I disagree with this. I know you do. And I think this is the thing. Catherine is often seen through the lens of other people from history. And it's an interesting legacy. 1574, King Charles dies. Her son dies again. She's now on to her third son. Yes.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
He's Hercule, isn't he? And so you've got Henri, he's having his go as king. Luckily, he's already had some useful work experience. Shappi, do you know why?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
No, weirdly, he was king of Poland for a bit.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
It's like the Duke of Edinburgh Award. So, Estelle, can you tell us about Henri, the new, new, new king of France?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, he's a good-looking fella.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Sorry, chaps. Loved being king of Poland. Gotta go.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
But he describes his poo. He keeps a poo diary.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So, Henri is now ruling. Catherine is still sort of reigning a bit because she's still mother of the king. But she still finds time to meddle in the love life of her fourth remaining son, Hercule, who gets renamed François, Duke of Anonçon.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And he's being dangled in front. In fact, Catherine is doing the dangling. She's dangling him in front of someone for marriage. Do you know who that would be?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Who's single and ready to mingle on the marriage market?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah. So he's a young lad. Lizzie, Lizzie, Lizzie. And he's being sort of pushed in front of Queen Elizabeth, who's much older.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah. And Florence is their home.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Her nickname for him is Frog.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she was. Yeah, he's in his late teens.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Well, he doesn't marry her, of course, because she remains the Virgin Queen. But Francis Hercule sadly dies aged 29 in 1584 after a bungled military campaign in the Netherlands. So Catherine is marrying off the daughters as well, which means she's sort of the grandmother of Europe.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
She's sort of, you know, she's arranging all these marriages and, you know.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And Spain is a superpower at this time, isn't it? France and Spain are superpowers.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And what about her final years, Catherine? I mean, she's quite old by this point, not like elderly, but she's lived a life by this point. So what's life like for her in the mid-1580s or so?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, he's assassinated, isn't he?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So she dies aged 69, France still ripped apart by a religious war. Her son is murdered. And the question, I suppose, is how does France cope without her stabilising influence? But she's not managed to stabilise everything, obviously. So what happens to the Valois line, her dynasty?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
It's a life and a half, isn't it, Shappi?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, I'd just go to Chinonso and just make myself a cocktail and just read a book.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah, just play volleyball in the garden.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Well, there we go. That was quite wise of me. That was very wise. Very wise. I felt like we should just leave it there.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Right, it's time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Shappi and I sit enraptured in our throne room while Estelle holds court for two minutes, tells us something we need to know about Catherine de' Medici. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Dr. Estelle.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
I'm so sorry. Not the Kardashians.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So Catherine was born Katerina, right? So your question, Shappi, about Catherine.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Thank you very much. Beautifully said.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
What an extraordinary life. And as we say, her childhood was so sad. Just to come back from that alone is impressive. So what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Shappi to see how much she has learned. We've done an awful lot of Henri's and Françoise's and all sorts of names. Are you feeling confident? I mean, you've been taking great notes.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
I don't think he's in the quiz, but maybe we'll get lucky. But we've got ten questions. Here we go. Question one. Which family member acted as Catherine's guardian for much of her childhood from his fancy palace? It was Pope Clement. It was Clement VII. Well done. Question two. How did the French court unconventionally celebrate Catherine's marriage to Prince Henri in 1533 when they went to bed?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
They did. It was an orgy. Classic, absolutely. The dipping of the nipping. Yes. Question three. Why was Catherine a suspect in the death of her husband's older brother in 1538? Because his death meant that she would be queen. That's right. And he suddenly keeled over playing tennis. It was very suspicious. Question four. Who was Diane de Poitiers?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
No. Question five. Can you name three of Catherine's ten children?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yes. Hercule. Yes. And Henri. Very good. Question six. What allegedly was Catherine's flying squadron? Not monkeys.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Very good. Question seven. How did her husband, King Henri II, die rather horribly? He died in a jousting incident. Question eight. What was the name of the devastating conflict that lasted from 1562 to 1598 in France?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Oh, yeah. Yes, I'll let you have that. That's well done, yeah. So it's called The Wars of Religion and the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre. Well done, well remembered. OK, and question nine. Which powerful Catholic family did Catherine have to contend with during her time as regent and queen mother?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And you did it beautifully. And this for a perfect 10 out of 10. Shafi Korsandi. Wow. Question 10. Which title did Catherine give herself that had never been used before in France?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
The queen mother, mother of the country. Mother of France. I'm giving you 10.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And you did so well because we had so many random Henri's and Francoises just bouncing around.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
OK, well, thank you so much, Estelle. Thank you, Shappi. And listener, if you want to hear more of Shappi, you can check out our episodes on Justinian and Theodora, another fascinating royal rags-to-riches tale. Or, of course, the ancient Olympics episode, if you want to get your Olympics nostalgia vibes on.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And for more quality queens, we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Aquitaine. And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. And I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
In History Corner, we had the excellent Dr Estelle Paranc from Northeastern University, London. Thank you, Estelle.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And in Comedy Corner, we had the sensational Shaparak Korsandi. Thank you, Shappi.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we crown another historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go and crash a wedding and dip my nips in everyone's glasses. This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Hannah Cusworth. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And then saying, you now need to move into that house.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
They're into the second Florentine Republic. He's given this land that he has to go and fight for. He marries the French noble, who is royal.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
I'm doing my best, all right? You're telling my mum.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
No, it's the Pope who sets them up.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So you've got your classic Nepo baby thing. You know, Lorenzo's uncle is the Pope. That's always nice. Very handy. And then you've got the combination of two illustrious houses, the Medici, French royal family... So we can imagine that her childhood, Katerina's childhood, would be... Amazing. Amazing, luxurious, glamorous. Not the case, Estelle.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
They're not a very robust family, are they? No, no. I mean... It's tragic. It's tragic. And then on the third one, it starts to become almost funny because the third time around, you're like, how many people? I mean, seriously. That's really sad.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grabbing our crowns and galloping back to the 16th century to learn all about the famous French queen Catherine de' Medici. And to help us, we have two very special guests.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Very affordable rates. As a historical consultant. So how do you think the Pope, her uncle, Clement VII, secures her future? She's a young woman. She's 11, 12 years old. What do you think the Pope does to make sure she's got a backup plan?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Normally on this show, I have to honk my problematic marriage klaxon. This time around, I'm going to honk my kind of sad marriage klaxon, but sort of like they're both so young.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
His name is Henri, right? Henri, yeah. Yeah, OK.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Okay, all right. I'm not going to honk my problematic marriage collection. I'm going to revoke the honking, but I am going to say 14 is very young. Just psychologically and developmentally. But at the time, I understand.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
But at this stage, I think we can perhaps update the name because she was Caterina de' Medici. But now she's Catherine.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
OK, OK. No, that's fine. That's fair. Catherine. OK, so planning the wedding, Shafi. Yeah. What big entertainment would you lay on if you were the wedding planner for this big, grand festivity? Now, the King of France is laying on a wedding. François, he's laying on a wedding for Henri and for Catherine. What's going to be at that party?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
In History Corner, she's Associate Professor in Early Modern History at Northeastern University London. She's an expert on royal and diplomatic studies in 16th and 17th century Europe, especially queenship. And luckily for us, she's also the author of The Incredible Blood, Fire and Gold, the story of Elizabeth I and Catherine de' Medici. It's Dr Estelle Perronc. Welcome, Estelle.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
I wish. That would be my dream wedding, I think, zorbing and pick and mix.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
I love the way you're trying to lay the groundwork for defence here. We haven't even said it yet.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
She wasn't that shocked, which is remarkable. I love it.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
It was the after party, but the party continues. And what happens is that professional ladies dip their boobs into wine glasses and then everyone licks off the wine and then it turns into an orgy.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Yeah. I mean, it's likely, isn't it? I think we can call it, what, a nipple-tipple? I don't know. Do you know what?
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Good luck, Mark. OK, so we have teenage newlyweds, Catherine and Henri. They're first set up by the Pope. Already a very dramatic episode of Married at First Sight. But then the drama really ramps up because another woman enters the marriage. It's all very Lady Diana. Indeed, Diana is appropriate because this lady is Diane, Diana de Poitiers.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
Well, she's 19 years older.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So Diane de Poitiers would be the Camilla in this story.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And so Henri is wearing her colours, the black and white. Absolutely. So in front of court, he's wearing her official uniform.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and author. You'll have seen her on all the TV, on such shows as Live at the Apollo, Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow, Have I Got News For You. Maybe you've read one of her brilliant books, including her recent exploration of living with ADHD, Scatterbrain.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
So that's like making her minister for culture. Exactly, yeah.
You're Dead to Me
Catherine de’ Medici: the real Serpent Queen of France
And Catherine really, really wants a castle, a beautiful chateau called Chenonceau. It's a very beautiful castle to visit.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Emma of Normandy, an absolute classic. It's Jen Brister. Welcome, Jen. Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure. We had a lot of fun last time in medieval England trying to remember that everyone was called Elfgivu.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
The age old trade. Can you go and trade, please? And bring lots of swords. Yeah. And where is he going?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And Yucatan is the peninsula of eastern Mexico, right? Yes, yes. I've been there on holiday. It's lovely.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So we said promotion, but is this Velázquez sending Cortés off to his death?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah. One person died.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Once more with feeling. I've got a really good... I reckon this time they'll welcome us, yeah?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And he founds Veracruz, the first Spanish town in Mexico. He immediately divorces Velázquez from his sort of chain of command, right? He's just like, I founded a town and I answer to the Spanish king and Velázquez is dead to me and everything's fine.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
I actually left my wife and children back there, actually.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Once you've done one crime, you can't go back and go, I'm so sorry.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
We know he's ambitious. So he's obviously trying to feather his own nest. Tiny bit of trivia that's completely unrelated to the history, but I love it, is that the actor who voiced Cortez in the Road to El Dorado animation also was the voice of Winnie the Pooh.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
I'm just hearing the voice of Winnie the Pooh whenever Cortez speaks. Of course, Winnie the Pooh craves pots of honey. Cortez is after pots of money. So he's off. He's off seeking gold and glory in 1519. And he is going to meet... Melintzin, finally we get our meet cute, except it's not a meet cute, it's a meet yuck, because she is enslaved and he is arriving as a conqueror.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Cortez has shown up, obviously not able to speak any of the languages spoken by the indigenous people he's meeting. He's like, you know, hola. And they're like, what? So that's not going to work. So how does the translation work then? You know, if Cortez wants to say something to the Maya...
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Does she become Marina then and there?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And Cortés is presumably using charm and violence, those two lovely combinations.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
This is the So What Do You Know, where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. I'm guessing you've heard the name Cortez, the Conquistador. I feel like it's a name that's in the ether. He's appeared in all kinds of TV shows and films, most notably as the big baddie in the DreamWorks animation The Road to El Dorado.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
We're talking an army of 600 Spanish soldiers. It's not a huge army.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So we have to conquer Tenochtitlan. Well, we're not going to do it. Cortes is going to do it. A vast, vast citadel, an incredibly sophisticated, huge city. Yeah. And 600 Spaniards show up and some allies.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And they just, what, ring the doorbell and say, hello, we've come to conquer you?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So he's the Atec emperor?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
I should take that title. That's my job.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
They found out about things that were... OK, so Cortez is about to step on various booby traps.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
No, that's not a fruit. That's a grenade.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And so we know that Moctezuma meets Cortes.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And then suddenly the city falls. I mean, that's very truncated.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
But unless you are Mexican or maybe American, I suspect Melintzin, I imagine she's perhaps a lot less familiar as a name. She's the subject of several Spanish language plays, operas and books, and appears in some famous murals, one painted by Diego Rivera. In Mexico City, he was the husband of Frida Kahlo.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
He would have controlled the narrative.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
We forgot about Velasquez, didn't we?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah, Cortés races off to face them down.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah, here's all the gold I've got. Come get some gold.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Meanwhile, Pedro de Alvarado has left back in the city of Tenochtitlan. He then goes, oh, I've just heard the Aztecs are threatening to kill us all. We'd better kill them first. Yes, basically.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
He's not going to leave any evidence of his complicity, is he? He knows what he's doing.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah. And so Moctezuma appears on a terrace to convince his people to sort of calm down. Yeah. And then somehow he dies.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Now, Melintzin has also been confusedly conflated with the Mexican folk tale of the wailing woman, La Llorona.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So that's the end of Montezuma. Cortes is now in control, I think we can say.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Cortes then continues and Mexico is conquered by Spain and it becomes part of the Spanish Empire and sends home all the silver and gold back to Spain. So that's sort of the conquest story. And then Melintzin at this point has kind of done her job. No. Could she not just go, all right, job done, thanks very much, I'm off?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Thank you. A vengeful ghost who drowns her own children. Yeesh, you don't want that in a children's movie, do you?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
I mean, they have a kid together, don't they?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
But she doesn't marry Cortés because he's married, so she's with Cortés, but she then marries another Spanish woman.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
The interesting thing about Meliton is that's sort of where the story ends. She dies quite young. She dies in 1529 when she's only... She's barely 30 yet, if that. So that's quite sad. And that's where we leave her in the story, apart from perhaps in your nuance window. But what about Cortez? Does he then say, oh, big thanks to Melinda?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Is there a sort of like in memoriam section where he's like, she, you know, I really needed her? Or does he just sort of pretend she never really did anything important?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So she got enslaved workers too?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Right, so they're legitimate there.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
No, no. But was the real story of Cortez and Melintzin its own different horror story involving ghosts and stabbings, maybe? How have their reputations changed over time? And what exactly is Moctezuma's revenge? Let's find out. Today, we're doing a bit of a buy one, get one free biography. We'll start with Cortez, purely because he happened to be born first. So, Amy, who was he?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Cortez does downplay her a bit in his letters, but other writers sort of put her back into the picture at the time.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah, yeah, it does feel very saintly.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
This brings us to my next question, actually, Amy, because for so long, Cortez has been on the run. from the Spanish authorities. People have been sending armies after him. But he finally conquers Mexico, which means presumably he gets to go to the King of Spain. Hello, this is yours because of me. So do you want to let me off and give me a job? I mean, does he get a reward?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Is he an aristocrat? You know, when he's born, is he rich?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
He can't just settle for something and go, this is fine, this is enough.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So, yeah. So the king appoints an investigator, Ponce de Leon, to come after him. Strips him of his governorship in 1526. Yeah. And Cortes does the classic apprentice candidate thing of banging on the boardroom door saying, let me in. Come on, I've got to, you know. And then Cortes is accused of poisoning Ponce de Leon. Yes.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
What are they dying from? I think they're dying from Cortez. We are.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And then, obviously, we mentioned Catalina very early in the episode. His lovely wife, who he left behind. 1522, he'd left her behind. She comes out to see him at last. And they have a party, and then she's found dead. There's reports of finger marks on her throat.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Pure coincidence, Amy. What are you talking about? I mean, honestly, the way...
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Well, I mean, he's constantly investigated, isn't he? They're constantly trying to investigate him for murder, for embezzlement, for not following orders. He is ruthless. He is avaricious. Even the Spanish think that. But he gets away with it.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Because he's got the legal training. He knows how to slow down the court case. OK, how does he die in the end? Does Mox Azuma get his revenge, as the famous idiom would have it?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
He shat himself to death.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Because he was a shed and he deserved it. OK, so pleurisy is probably what killed him, but dysentery probably didn't help. OK, so there you go, Jen. Hernán Cortés and Melintzin. It's quite the story, isn't it?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Jen and I machete our way through the jungle for two minutes while Amy tells us something we need to know about Melinsin. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr. Amy.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Fernando Hernando Cortes y Monroy Ipizarro Altamirano is a great name. That does sound quite noble.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
It is. It's greedy. And what about his childhood?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Great. Well, time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Jen to see how much she's learned. I was going to say, Jen, are you feeling confident?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
You have taken some fantastic notes.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Eight pages of notes, listener. Jen's written her own Cortez letter.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Let's see what we can do. All right, let's have a go. Ten questions. Question one. Where does the name Melintzin come from?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah, it's from her Spanish name.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
That's right, well done, yeah. Plus the honorific suffix, I've seen that at the end, so well done. Question two. On Cuba, why was Hernán Cortés thrown in jail by his boss, Velázquez?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
He had, absolutely. Catalina, he refused to marry her. Catalina, that's it. And then he was like, all right. Question three. What was legally very dodgy about Cortés leading his conquering expedition to the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico? What was... What had Velázquez said to him?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
That's right. He's on the run, basically.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah, well done. Question four. How did Malintzin and Cortez first meet?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Question five. The Tlaxcalans were crucial allies in the conquest of Tenochtitlan. Without them, how many Spanish soldiers would Cortes have had? 600. It is 600. Well done, yeah. Question six. What happened to Cortez's first wife, Catalina, in 1522?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Or died of natural causes and was caught by the neck.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
What a bastard. Question seven. What was the encomienda system?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
It was, but technically not slavery.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
But it turns out you can. But they did. Question eight. What was the name of both Cortes' dad and his son with Malintzin? Martin. It was Martin. Question nine. Who was the Aztec emperor based at Tenochtitlan who ultimately died at the hands of Cortes?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah, very good. And this for a perfect ten. How did Cortez die in 1547? He died from pooing out of his bumhole. And or pleurisy. He did. Both of those two things. Ten out of ten, Joan Brister.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Only consulted the notes once. Well done, Joan. Thank you. And of course, thank you, Amy, as well. Listener, if you're bursting for more Brista, check out our episode on Emma of Normandy with all the elf-givus.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
For more Mexican history or famous interpreters, you can do the Aztecs episode, series one, the Sacagawea episode, or the Colombian Exchange episode, which is about Columbus and after that fact.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds, and also make sure to switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the amazing Dr Amy Fuller from Nottingham Trent University. Thank you, Amy. Thanks for having me.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
It was great fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you, Jen. Oh, what a delight. I've really enjoyed it. And thank you, Amy. I've learned a lot. And to you lovely listeners, join me next time as we translate another overlooked historical story. But for now, I'm off to write a long letter to the King of Spain, blaming someone else for all of my failures. Bye! Thank you.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So there's an element of him telling his own history that he wants people to know. Oh, very much so, yes. Fair enough. But in 1492, do you know what happened in 1492, Jen? Oh my gosh, don't ask me.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
It's like I'm reading from a sheet or something, but no, I haven't.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah, well, more broadly in history, what do you think is happening in terms of Spanish history or global history in 1492? Some kind of war. I mean, there are a lot of wars, but it's Columbus.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Hernán Cortés is seven years old. Columbus sails on behalf of the Spanish king and queen in search of India and bumps into what's called the New World, inverted commas. It's obviously not new to the people who live there. So what makes Hernan Cortes decide he wants to follow in Columbus's wake? Because soon after, like 10, 12 years later, he's on a ship.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today we are sharpening our language skills and sailing across the Atlantic to 16th century Mexico to learn all about the conquistador Hernan Cortes and his indigenous translator Malintzin.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
We should probably turn to Melintzin. In 1504, Cortes is 19 years old. Melintzin is...
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And we don't even know her real name, right? We know her by a later...
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Oh, OK. So you say she was kidnapped, sold into slavery by the Maya, who were different people entirely from the Aztecs, who were different people entirely from the Nahuatl.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And you've mentioned the Aztecs. In our heads, I guess over here in the UK, we know the Aztecs as like the dominant superpower of the region.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And to help us understand this pair, we have a pair of very special guests. In History Corner, she's Senior Lecturer in the History of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University. Her research focuses on early modern Spain and Mexico, specifically religion, identity and empire. It's Dr Amy Fuller. Welcome, Amy. Thanks for having me. Delighted to have you here and in Comedy Corner.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Yeah, this is the same time as Henry VIII.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
It's a franchise? Is it like Starbucks?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
If listeners want to know more about the Aztecs, we did them in series one. So scroll all the way down in the app to the very, very beginning. But that's the political powder keg that is awaiting the Spanish spark, Jen, as you've pointed out, actually, that we've got all these different sort of power bases. But let's get back to Cortes. He's in Hispaniola. So he's not got to Mexico yet.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And he is, well, we've already heard he's doing horrible things to the indigenous peoples. He's trying to get cash, but he's got a job.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
OK. Yes. So forced labour that the Spanish crown is allowing to happen. Yes.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So the encomienda system is obviously being cooked up to exploit the indigenous peoples. But the relationship with Velazquez, who's sort of his boss, sort of his patron, sounds quite tense, Jen. It sounds quite... Competitive? Competitive, yes. Why do you think they fell out? What do you reckon the spark was?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
I mean, that's certainly the conventional way, but actually there's a woman involved. There's a lady involved.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
And it's not a love triangle. No. It's a love rhomboid. It's a sort of weird... Yes.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
So you were sort of right there, Jen. He tries to strike out on his own.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Doesn't quite land, OK. Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
She's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the TV shows, including Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen her on tour or read or listened to her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother, I Love the Audiobook, or her podcast, WTB, which I think is short for a slightly ruder title.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
This is the story we want to see. Run to the airport, run to the jail cell. I love you really, probably. I don't know. That's a great title.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
I have to point out again, Jen, I'm so sorry, but we're in a double name situation again. We had Evgivu, Evgivu, Evgivu multiple times and we've got Catalina, Catalina.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Because Cortez's mum is Catalina.
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
This is why we've got you back, Jen. We only do it for episodes if we share names. I appreciate it. So, OK, so his wife, begrudgingly, is Catalina Suarez. Catalina Cortez? Or does she keep the Suarez?
You're Dead to Me
Hernán Cortés and Malintzin: the Spanish conquest of Mexico
Great. So Cortés and Velázquez are besties again. He was climbing the ranks. He was the mayor of Santiago and then in 1518 Velázquez gave him another promotion and this one is an expedition promotion. I want you to go and explore, conquer...
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
He also has quite high standards when it comes to other people. There's a quote that he says, if a chap can't compose an epic poem while he's weaving a tapestry, he'd better shut up. He'll never do any good at all. Ha ha! I feel, I mean, that's two skills I can't do.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
I mean, Cariad, what are the two things that the modern gentle person should be able to do simultaneously?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Those sound very difficult. Only one of those at a time. Come on.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
So he's setting high standards for others, but he's setting them for himself too. William Morris is an interesting fella. And much like the Bloomsbury group that we spoke about in our 100th episode, the arts and crafts movement, again, is a bunch of university pals going, hey, I'm a bit posh and fancy like you and we are all friends.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And you'll definitely remember her from our episodes about Agrippina the Younger, Georgian Courtship. It's the wonderful Cariad Lloyd. Welcome back, Cariad.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Doesn't he do architecture as well?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
I mean, you said unfortunately, but there's a sort of argument here that William Morris is like, yeah, I mean, what are you going to do? I think...
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
You're an expert in the Regency period.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
So Dante Gabriele Rossetti was in the family bed. And also Morris also invited in Edward Byrne-Jones and his wife Georgiana to come and move in with them as well.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
No, you're very good. You're very good. But today we're in the Victorian era.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
How sure. It's fair. Very early in your career kind of vibes.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
No. Edward Burne-Jones and Georgina, they actually turned the invitation down.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And Morris responded. Oh, God.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And even into the early 20th century. So what do you know of the arts and crafts movement?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Maybe that's it. Maybe everyone's like, no, we're not moving. We're not. No.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
I'd love to move in with you.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
William Morris wrote, when he got the knockback, he just wrote, I cried, but I've got over it now.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Okay, so we've got these talented friends who are collaborating artistically, collaborating romantically, occasionally. Not always successfully artistically. There's a famous mural. They're invited into Oxford's famous debating chamber. And they're asked to do a mural. And they're going to do an Arthurian mural.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
But they don't necessarily check the kind of textbook on how to do a mural. Exactly.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
They also, I mean, William and Jane, they build their family home in Bexley Heath in Kent. It's called Red House. Have you ever been, Cariad?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
It's a nice one. It's built in 1860 and Philip Webb, their old friend, designs it.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
But they get the gang in.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Which I think is what people refer to as the royal family as well. Yeah, yeah.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
They're doing all sorts of things. They're not just putting up a mural. They're not just hanging some lovely curtains. They're doing stained glass windows.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Amazing. So the company flourishes. And as you said, Cariad, we're used to artists being useless at the basic. Yeah, kind of falling apart.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
No, this goes really well. They expand into bigger premises near Wimbledon.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, I'm going to be an agent provocateur here, Isabella, because as a historian, I'm going to have to say, one of the reasons the company flourishes is because of the Industrial Revolution. Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
William Morris. He'd love to be Elizabethan. Yeah, he would.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
I mean, come on. I mean, they're rejecting it.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
I know I'm being annoying, but we have to be true. The Industrial Revolution creates a middle class.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, and that's always the case, right? You can have grand, lofty ambitions, but the economics are always going to underpin, does this work or not? What's interesting about Morris, he's obviously self-taught, as we've heard, all these things he's picking up. He's also getting other people to teach themselves. He's inspiring others. We know of an artist called William de Morgan.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
He teaches himself ceramics. He has a minor mishap. Just a little one. Do you want to guess what happens? Does he blow up a kiln? Yes, he does.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
It's like his house is on fire.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
There's another artist we should mention, actually, because she's slightly different in that she went outside. Gertrude Jekyll.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Who did interior, but she also did gardens.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, I mean, there's quite a lot of good names in this episode.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I imagine most people will have heard of the big dog of the arts and crafts movement, William Morris. His floral designs are still printed on curtains, wallpaper, notebooks, pencil cases, even on football kits.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
The thing that I find quite interesting is the arts and crafts ethos moves beyond Morris' control. And that happens, right? We happen to see that in music, we see that in comedy.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
But we get a sense of an arts and crafts movement out of England into Scotland, into Wales, into Ireland, maybe internationally, I don't know.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
What's more, modern homeware brands like Cathy Kidston owe a huge amount to the arts and crafts movement, and we see the design legacy in TV shows like Grand Designs and Queer Eye. But the wider history of the movement is perhaps more hidden. Beyond the cutesy curtains, what was arts and crafts really about? Why did traditional manufacturing methods have a resurgence in Victorian Britain?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And what is a strawberry thief? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Isabella, where do we start our story?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
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You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yes. How does the arts and crafts movement finish? I mean, do people just go, that's enough. Thank you.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
We need to eat on this table.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
It's back in fashion. Maybe it never left.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
The Nuance Window! Time now for The Nuance Window. This is where Cariad and I recline in our drawing room in Red House with our embroidery samplers while Dr Isabella has two minutes to tell us something we need to know about the arts and craft movement that we haven't heard already. So my stopwatch is ready. Take it away.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
But ironically, it's back to mass production again, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's the sort of memification. Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Great. Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Cariad the Quiz Queen to see how much she has learned. You are renowned in this show for the heroic achievements in quizzing. But we've got 10 questions for you, Cariad.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
That might work. Let's see. Okay. Question one. Yeah. Who coined the term Arts and Crafts Movement?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yes, very good. Yeah, well done. Thomas Cobden Sanderson. Very good. Well remembered. That was a hard one. Well done. Question two. What economic development was the Arts and Crafts Movement reacting against?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah. Question three. Can you name two other arts and crafts practitioners besides William Morris?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, sure. That's fine, yeah. Dante Rossetti, yeah. Philip Webb, Jane Byrne, yeah. There's lots of people. Question four. What went wrong with the Arthurian mural that Morris and his circle produced for the Oxford Union Debating Chamber?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
It was just bare brick and then some lovely Othi Rihanna. Question five. What was the name of the house designed for William and Jane Morris to live in by the architect Philip Webb?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Question six. Where did Morris and co hire a number of their employees from? Which school?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
That's it, yeah. Industrial school, industrial home for destitute boys.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Question seven. What two crafts was Gertrude Jekyll a practitioner of?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, what particular type of...
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
It was embroidery. Yeah, very good. Well done. It's always embroidery.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Question eight. What arts and crafts organisation was founded by Lady Victoria Welby in 1872 and is now looked after by a certain Dr. Isabella?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
The Royal School of Needlework.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Question nine. How did Mary Seaton Watts put radical arts and crafts ideas into practice when commissioned to do the Compton Mortuary Chapel?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And they didn't blow up their kilns.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, that's very... Question 10. What was it about the Art Workers Guild that did not enumerate them to women?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, exactly. Cariad Lloyd, never in doubt, 10 out of 10. Yes!
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
It was 10 out of 10, Cariad. Well done. Thank you so much for coming in again. And thank you, Dr. Isabella. Listener, if after today's episode you want more Cariad Lloyd in your life, you can check our episodes on Mary Wollstonecraft. Well, craft. Arts and Wollstonecraft. Yeah, baby. Got there in the end. Sorry.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Or, of course, the George and Valentine's episode where we talked about some surprisingly racy nudes being sent in the post. Yep.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Drawings of eyes. Fan work. Yep. Yep. And if you want to hear more about British artistic movements, why not listen to our 100th episode on the Bloomsbury Group, who were radical and also just incredibly randy. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the incredible Dr Isabella Rosner from the Royal School of Needlework. Thank you, Isabella.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And in Comedy Corner, we had the cracking Cariad Lloyd. Thank you, Cariad.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we reupholster another neglected historical subject. But for now, I'm off to go and teach myself ceramics and maybe blow up my house. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by John Norman Mason. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
LAUGHTER Yes, exactly. LAUGHTER This is how we investigate cybercrime. We look for the yachts.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
What is a movement? Are there rules? Is there a manifesto?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
We're not sure quite when it starts. You said 1860, you went into 1870s, but this is 1887 that it gets its name. So that's not very good branding if you've been going for 27 years. We should really call this something. There is a quote by Morris in an 1877 lecture.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
But that's also a mean average, which means mostly it's children dying.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
We have then a movement that comes along that's reacting to the trauma of the Industrial Revolution. It is a trauma, right?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I am a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are packing our William Morris tote bags and heading back to the 19th century to learn all about the arts and crafts movement. And to help us spin this story, we have two practitioners of very different arts.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
These artists are responding in a way that feels like they're looking for escapism. And they go hunting for escapism in the past. Cariad, what bygone age would you daydream about or do you daydream about?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Well, you live there half the time.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
I mean, the artists that we're talking about here, they're interested in Elizabethan, but it's the medieval world that they're particularly drawn to.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Sure. But it's a romantic medieval. I'm a medievalist by training. Oh my God, the pressure is on now. The medieval world was violent and dark and scary. And of course, there was art and beauty and philosophy. But this is not a time necessarily of great joy and pleasantness. But the arts and crafts movement, they see it as a romantic age.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And talking of great men of the Victorian era, we should probably mention Ruskin. Do you know Ruskin?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Try another man's name from the period.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
John Ruskin. John Ruskin, well done. There you go. You get there in the end. I've heard of him. He's an extraordinary figure in the 19th century. He's slightly debated these days. Everything. Amongst everything else. Absolutely everything. Architect, critic, painter, writer, philosopher, poet.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
He's what the Victorians would call him, a great man.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
He's a polymath. And he's kind of an inspiration for the arts and crafts movement.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Intellectual kind of figurehead, I would say.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
In History Corner, she's curator of the Royal School of Needlework and a research consultant at Whitney Antiques. She's an art historian of the material culture of the 17th to 19th centuries with a particular focus on needlework. You might have listened to her podcast, So What? It's a pun. It's Dr. Isabella Rosner. Welcome, Isabella.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Okay, so we have some of our intellectual figures. Let's move on to William Morris. We've name-checked him already.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, Daddy Morris. Which, I don't know, feels worse and feels slightly sordid. I don't know.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think many people would recognise a William Morris print. I don't think they're going to recognise a photo of him. He's not got one of those distinctive Victorian faces. Who was William Morris? Where was he educated?
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
We're delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she is a comedian, actor, improviser, writer and podcaster. You may know her from her podcast, Griefcast, an award-winning show. It's spin-off book, You Are Not Alone, her many TV appearances, her Weirdos Book Club podcast with lovely Sarah Pascoe, or her new children's book, The Christmas Wishtastrophe.
You're Dead to Me
The Arts and Crafts Movement: William Morris and his circle
And as a personality, I mean, he's a prodigious brain. He's another classic polymath.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Sharon, Marco Polo tells us some really interesting things about life in the Mongol court, but also kind of wider administrative aspects. And two of the things I think that are particularly interesting would be the postal system.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Welcome to the nerd show over here.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
I'm writing this down. I did. We knew you were coming in. We thought we'd go fully nerd. Sharon, the postal system and paper money are two things that Polo is particularly intrigued by. These aren't brand new inventions, but these are things the Mongol dynasty are renowned for. So can you talk us through them?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
It's Rialina. Welcome back to the show, Ria. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. We're delighted to have you back. Now, Ria, you are, I think, officially the most educated, therefore most hyper-intelligent comedian we've ever had on. You have a PhD.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Yeah, so we've got something like 1,400 waystop stations and there'd be 50,000 horses in the network, we believe. And as you said, Sharon, they can deliver a message immediately In 36 hours, to the furthest extent of the Mongol Empire.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
They were sealed, Sharon, if I remember rightly. There was a sort of security integrity system, wasn't there?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Tell us about paper money because Marco Polo is particularly fascinating because paper money is not in use in Europe, is it, at this time?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
The most educated, perhaps. Okay.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Amazing. Famously, Marco Polo tells us that the punishment for refusing the paper money was death.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
And I will be taking these kiwi fruits with me. Exactly that. Let's move on to something even shinier than paper money, which is jewels. Shiny, shiny jewels. Marco Polo listed three techniques for unearthing natural diamonds in India, interestingly enough, outside of China. Can you guess what these techniques might have been? I'll give you a clue, Ria. One of them involves eagles. What?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
That's definitely a technique, sure.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
That's a very sensible technique, yeah.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
None of those worked for me. Sorry. Sorry to hear that. Sharon, is Ria about to be a very, very wealthy person with her diamond industry? I mean, what was the Marco Polo technique that he tells us about? These three different ways.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Is it caramelized? Does someone put it in a sort of delicious jus so it's just kind of sticky?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Maybe, because then you're getting a free engagement ring.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Diamonds are a girl's best friend, but you do have to wait for them to come through an eagle's digestive tract first.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Yeah, and we've done a coffee episode if people want to listen to that. So there we go. It's all synced up.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Yeah, arguably that's not mining, that's theft. But sure, sure.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Sharon, I think at the top of the show we mentioned Marco Polo sheep, which sounds delightful. What's that about?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
I mean, that's amazing. So we call them Marco Polo sheep because he wrote about them. So this is him noticing these things and then modern day scholars going, oh yeah, the sheep that Marco Polo talked about. He also, he talks about luxury goods that were very valuable back in Europe and in the wider world that were from the animal kingdom.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Ria, if I say to you, ambergris and musk, do you know what those two things are? Whale vomit. It is.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
I didn't know there was a song, but yes.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
It's quids in, isn't it? Yeah, it's tens of thousands of pounds. Yes, it's whale phlegm. And so ambergris was very luxurious, used in perfumes, as you say. Musk was extracted from the anal glands of certain types of deer, I believe, Sharon. Is that correct? Yes.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Been a bit of a sausage fest so far. You know, I'm aware that we've really only talked about men so far. Marco, Maffeo, Niccolo, Kublai Khan. Marco Polo does write about the women he encounters on his 24 years. He talks about the women of Tibet as particularly interesting. Do you know why, Ria?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Yeah, yeah. We're not so good on the UK curriculum with the sort of medieval China.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Yes. I'll give you a clue about their romantic and sexual lives.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
That's a great guess. Did he, Sharon?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Exactly there. So instead of notches on the bedpost, these, I guess, are nomadic people without beds.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
So is Marco Polo a familiar name?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Fair point. And his final mission at the end of these 24 years is to escort a bride quite a long way, Sharon. Is this a sort of fairytale occasion? Is this a big royal wedding? Is it Harry and Meghan, Mark II?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Okay. Or in swimming. Talk us through the rules.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Marco has delivered the bride safely, not to the right husband, but never mind, to a husband. And then they sailed home. 50% of the right husband. Yeah, I mean, same surname, right?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
And they get back to Venice in 1295. And I'm thinking, warm welcome, right? He's been away 24 years. In 1295? In 1295. Remember, he's born in 1254. So he's an old man now. He's getting on a bit. Was it a warm welcome, Sharon? Was it, you know, street party, parades, trumpets? He's 41. I mean... I'm 42. So, you know, I'm feeling the age now.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Yeah. For me, that's... It really isn't.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Thank you, but I feel like I'm decaying quickly.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
I've written seven books. Does that count? Yes. Nice one. Sharon, talk me through the welcoming, the big arrival. Do the polos get off the boat and everyone's like, where have you been?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Okay, so he's in a Genoese prison. He has survived 24 years in the court of the terrifyingly, you know, famously fearsome Kublai Khan. He has survived thousands of miles of voyages. He's survived everything you can. He gets back home, and four years later, he's in jail. It's not ideal. It's quite bad luck.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Cartographically, is that how Marco Polo traveled the world, Sharon? By echolocating. Yes.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
He was just coasting around going, hello, hello, hello.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
So unlucky for him. Lucky for us, though, because, Sharon, we get the book because his cellmate is a renowned writer with a lovely name, Rusticello.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
You've gone through the hard work of all that scribbling in the cell. It's probably not very good lighting.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
That's the thing, isn't it? He extracted these stories from him. And the book, as you said earlier, Sharon, is not called Travels of Marco Polo. It is called Description of the World, composed in 1298, dictated to Rustichello. Rustichello. Thank you. Thank you.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
So, what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know, where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And you've probably heard of the name Marco Polo. Much like Rie, you may have known he was a medieval famous traveller. You may even have played the famous swimming pool game. Marco! Polo! Polo! career.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Now, sadly, this is a 20th century invention, not something that Marco did splashing around in the canals of Venice when he was a little boy. If you've travelled to Venice, oh, aren't you fancy? You will have flown to the Marco Polo airport. You may have stayed in the Marco Polo hotel. He's been the subject of a Netflix series.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
If you're a diehard Doctor Who fan and you've seen the original 1960s mini series, you'll know that Marco Polo's in there too. He gets around, this famous traveller. But what was the real historical story behind the big name? Did Marco Polo really go to China? And why is there a sheep named after him? Let's find out. Professor Sharon, can we start at the beginning? When was Marco Polo born?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
And what was his family situation like? Was he wealthy? Is he born into privilege?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
That's really interesting. So the age of exploration in the 13th century, then you get the age of conquest and colonialism where these men of science and learning but also administrators are looking at earlier texts and going, ah, yes, I can see that plant. He's written about it earlier. It's very interesting to see a book having that kind of legacy in life.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Find me a Marco Polo sheep. I want to ride it.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
This is the part of the show where Ria and I sit quietly and study our navigation charts, while Professor Sharon has two minutes to tell us something we need to know about Marco Polo. My stopwatch is ready, so Professor Sharon, please take it away.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Right. So we know he was born in 1254. And that's it. That's right. Helpful. Okay. I'll turn to you, Ria. What do you imagine his childhood was like in medieval Venice before little Bambino Marco was splashing around in the canals?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Amazing. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so much. Ria, that's a really interesting note to finish on, isn't it?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Cannibalism. Oh. Yes. So what do you know now? Well, there we go. So it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Ria, who is wincing, panicking. What's the word?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
It's a delightful polo sheep. It has a hole in the middle. Because it's got a hole in the middle.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
And bowls for horns. All right. I've got 10 questions for you.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Let's see how you do. Question one.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Question one. What was the title of Marco Polo's book when he first wrote it? Description of the World. It was very good. Question two. In which city was Marco Polo born?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
It was. Oh, very nice. Yes. Venice. Venezia. Very good. Question three. Who was the Mongol emperor that the Polos worked for?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Very good. Question four. What was the name of Kublai Khan's capital city? Do you remember?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
You've taken some very good notes. Yeah, absolutely. Khanbalak and Dadu, which would be Beijing. Also there was Anadu as well, which I think was a separate capital. Question five. What did Marco Polo say about the women in Tibet?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
That's right. Question six. Describe one of the three ways that you can mine diamonds in India.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Yeah. They're going to guano on you. Okay. That's an amazing answer. Well done. Question seven. What was the final mission that Marco Polo carried out for Kublai Khan?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
This is an incredible answer. You've got an incredible memory, honestly. Absolutely.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
You had tons of people. It was, absolutely. Question eight. Which famous Italian writer did Marco Polo co-write the description of the world with?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
It was 24 beds for 24 years away, I guess, maybe. I don't know.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
This were a perfect 10. Which famous explorer was known to be a big Marco Polo fan in 1492?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
But Christopher Columbus. It was Columbus. Ten out of ten, Rialina. Well done. What an extraordinary reciting of what we talked about. Incredibly accurate. Well done. And also well done, Sharon, for such instructive teaching there. That was amazing. I've had such a lovely time. Thank you, Sharon. And thank you, Ria.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Oh, yeah. And listener, if you want more Chinese history with Ria, you can check out the episode on the iconic pirate queen, Chunyi Cao. What an extraordinary life she led as well.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
The fact that she got to retire with all her riches. Incredible. They were just like, all right, you know, incredible.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
And of course, you can listen to our episode on Chinggis Khan as well. And if medieval travellers are your thing, we also have an episode on Ibn Battuta. And remember, if you've enjoyed the episode, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear the episodes one month before all the other platforms. It's very important.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
And if you get on there, make sure to switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we have the spectacular Professor Sharon Kinoshita from UC Santa Cruz. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Yeah, it was absolutely fascinating. And in Comedy Corner, we have the sensational Ria Lina. Thank you, Ria.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
It's been a delight. I've learned all about eagle poo and diamonds and all sorts. Eagle guano. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Why not? Why not? I'll come with you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we navigate more historical wonders. But for now, I'm off to go and train a bunch of eagles, then chuck some juicy steaks into my local jewellers. I'm going to be rich. Bye! Your Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Sharon, I think we have done very well there. I think that's a very interesting summary of the 13th century of Venice. Can you tell us any more or are we good?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
So we call this the Silk Road, despite it being seas, the Silk Road is this trade network.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are packing our trunk and boarding a ship to 13th century China to learn all about medieval traveller Marco Polo. And to help us on our way, we have two very special travelling companions.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
That's a very different type of website, Ria.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
So that's Venice. Sharon, tell us about Polo's family relations. Do we know of his siblings, mother, father?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
In my head, I'm thinking Marco Polo is the big exciting explorer, but the dad and uncle have already done it. So there's already a trade network there, which is kind of interesting. What is the court? Where is the court?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
In History Corner, she's Distinguished Professor of Literature at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Her research focuses on the intercultural relations of 12th and 13th century Asia and Europe, and in literature particularly. And luckily for us, she's the most recent translator of Marco Polo's book, as well as the author of Marco Polo and His World. It's Professor Sharon Kinoshita.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
So Ria, Marco grew up not really seeing his dad or his uncle because they were off gallivanting around Western Asia. And then suddenly one day they came back and they came back with a message for the Pope from the Mongol Emperor. But daddy makes it up to little Marco by saying, I've come back, I've delivered my message to the Pope. And actually, I quite fancy going back out again.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
So the polos now, our pack of polos, let's call them that. So Maffeo, Niccolo and Marco, they head back out to Mongol China in 1271. Marco is a young, he's what, 17, 18? He's a young man. That's right. And they travel to Acre, which is in the Holy Land of what we now call the Middle East.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
And they definitely go to China, Sharon, because when I was a student about 20 years ago or something like that, there was a big sort of like, oh, did he really go to China? Did he make it up? Was he telling stories? But he definitely went to China, right?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Listeners, if you want to know more about the Mongols, we did an episode on Genghis Khan, the grandfather of Kublai Khan. Genghis Khan, I guess, more famous name, but Genghis is what we called him. I mean, he's there. He's quite impressed by Kublai Khan and the capital, Dadu or Khanbaliq. Do you want to guess how long the Polos stay in this part of the world?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Well, let's call it a trip, but it's quite a long trip.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
That's a really good guess. It's 24 years. Yes. So you've done very well. You're very good at this, Ria. You've got incredible knowledge here.
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
Well, amazing. But yeah, they're there for 24 years. And Sharon, we get a sense then that Marco Polo, even though he arrives as a 17-year-old, he becomes a man in China, in Mongol-controlled China. What does he tell us about his life in Mongol China?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
24 years, Marco. Come on. He's too busy having fun. You talked about a book. What have we got?
You're Dead to Me
Marco Polo: history’s most famous travel writer?
We're delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, actor and writer. You might have seen her on loads of things on TV, including live at the Apollo QI, Pointless, having news for you. Maybe you've seen her stand-up tour, Reawakening, or heard her on Radio 4's News Quiz or The Now Show. And you will definitely remember her from our episode on Pirate Queen, Chung-I Sao.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
We've got Ear, son of Hera. He's got fantastic hearing.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
I feel like the guy who stands on his head didn't get the memo on.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Someone's got to stay behind and guard the castle. Upside down. Slowly shuffling around the moat. Mike, what talent do you think Lip, son of Placid, possesses? Lip? Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Too useful. I mean... Magical kisses? I guess. Can he kiss it all better? That would be... What a wonderful thing. For the Indian knights. Oh, that would be so good.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
No, his skill is... Well, I'll read you the quote. On days when he was sad, he would let his bottom lip drop down to his navel... And on the other day, it would be a hood over his head. Yeah, so the party trick he does with his bottom lip is it goes down to the navel. But I should clarify, actually, the top lip goes up over the head, like a hood. How do you see? Wow.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
I don't see how that's particularly useful.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Interesting. I mean, you're a total legend, but King Arthur, total legend. What do you know?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And after this charmingly weird Mabinogion, we get our first English horse, Mary. And it's not entirely English, because Geoffrey of Monmouth... Is a bit Welsh?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Because he claims to be, he says he found a very ancient book of an ancient tongue.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
But then obviously he doesn't name it and we don't have it. And you're like, did you?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, that's incredible.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Oh, that's, yeah, that's huge. That's, like, you know, for most of our text, we've got, like, 20, 25, 30 sometimes.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, he's the John Grisham of the 13th century.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It's hugely important, inspiring European intellectuals to think about history in a new way. So you suddenly get this sort of splitting of history into three categories. Matter of Rome, ancient history. The Matter of France, Charlemagne's empire. And the Matter of Britain... Because in Geoffrey of Monmouth's text, King Arthur unifies England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And then he's like, that's not enough. I'm going to go conquer some stuff. And he adds to that Brittany, Denmark, Germany, Iceland, Norway, France and Romania. He's basically a one man Eurovision. Wow. Yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
There is a gap, isn't there? So this King Arthur is a conqueror and king of half of Europe, as well as king of Britain, a unified Britain, which is an interesting political idea, obviously.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And, of course, you've mentioned he's important, but Geoffrey of Monmouth, we would call him a chronicler, we would call him a historian, but he's hugely important for the literature aspects of what becomes Arthuriana. So do you want to talk us through that?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Who's not a baddie.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Because I think most people will hear the name and go, Morgan Le Fay, baddie, sorceress, evil queen, witch lady.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So in this early... In Geoffrey of Monmouth, she is a positive figure. She heals Arthur when he's injured. Later on, she will be turned into a villain.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
We do get... We sort of get Excalibur-ish.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Hard. We'll find out if there's any detail. So, what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I think like Mike, you definitely would have heard of Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Merlin. Most people will have seen an Arthurian screen adaptation, I think.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Because X means from, so Excaliburnus, from Caliburn.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
He advises Uther Pendragon. Yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Now, why do you think Merthyn was renamed to Merlin by Geoffrey of Monmouth? This is just a possibility. We're not sure this is true, but why might that be the case? That's interesting.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Oh, you're thinking murder? Yeah. No, in French, merde means shit. Of course!
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
That's it. Wow, that's great.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It's a beautiful name in Welsh, but when you translate it to French, it's literally a crap name. It's like one of the earliest examples of rebranding, is it?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So Merlin, or Merlin in French, I suppose, but Merlin in English. The other thing that Geoffrey of Monmouth brings in is something you've already mentioned, the idea of Arthur as the once and future king as well, doesn't he? The idea of his return.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Exactly that. And that then kickstarts what we might charmingly, cheekily call fan fiction. It's not necessarily fan fiction, but it's a sudden surge of other writers going, oh, I can run with this. I can add to this. And it starts straight away, doesn't it?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Do you know why they're called romances, Mike?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
That's your Disney Sword in the Stone, your boisterous King Arthur with Keira Knightley and Clive Owen, your John Borman's weird and wonderful Excalibur. You've got the kid who would be king. You've got the sing-along Camelot. You've got the BBC series Merlin. There's Dev Patel in the swoon-worthy Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Quite weird, but good.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Because we now use the word romance to mean, you know, love stuff, bouquet of flowers and all that. But it's a linguistic history, right? It's just the romance language. Right. Yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
He's a lover and a fighter, ladies. Yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Well, let's do a mini quiz for you, actually, Mike. So Chrétien de Troyes is probably the most important writer of this period, writing in sort of the 1170s, 1190s, adds quite a lot of iconic elements to the Arthurian canon. So which of these five iconic elements was not Chrétien's invention? So I'm going to give you five. One of them is not from Chrétien. One, Camelot. Two, Lancelot.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Three, Lancelot's tragic romance with Guinevere. Four, The Round Table. Five, The Quest for the Holy Grail, which was not Christiane's invention. I'm going to say The Quest for the Holy Grail. It's a good guess, but it's the round table. Is it really? Yeah, the round table.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Chrétien didn't come up with that. Chrétien came up with the others. So who invented the round table?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, siège means chair in French. Yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Robert Wass, that's the Roman de Brut. So that's the story of Brutus. That's 1155. So that's 15 years before Chrétien. But Chrétien de Troyes describes something that he does invent, which is the Holy Grail.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Obviously, the best Arthurian movie ever is Monty Python and the Holy Grail. A film I love so much, I wrote my master's thesis about it. I am on home turf today. Amazing. Finally, something I know about. And that's not mentioning all the operas, plays, poems, video games, paintings and books about King Arthur. But where do these stories come from?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Now... What do you think of when you think of a Holy Grail? Beyond the Monty Python film. What do you think of in terms of what it looks like, what it is?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
I need to ask also, we've mentioned the round table. Yeah. How many knights are sitting around the round table?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
You're thinking 13?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
You're bang on for one of the sources. But we also get various numbers, right?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
1,600 knights. And this thing is portable, we're saying. So the round table can seat 13 or 1,600. Or somewhere in between. Or somewhere in between. It really depends. So each Arthurian text was changing core elements, Mary. We're seeing here writers coming in, adding bits, tweaking bits, taking a name, running with it.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
We get Morgan Le Fay being transformed from helpful healer into traitorous sister to Arthur, becoming the incestuous mother of their child, Mordred. And then we've also got the knights who become the prominent, the famous knights of the round. How many can you name off the top of your head?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Was the medieval Arthur the same as our Arthur today? And just how big was a round table anyway? Let's find out. Right, Dr. Mary, Hollywood's vision of Arthur, or Arthuriana, I think is what we call it, the collective world of King Arthur. Hollywood makes it all sort of shiny armor, knights riding around, ladies in pointy hats, dangerous forests. It's very 14th century.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Sir Mordred, Sir Gehaerys, Sir Gareth. Tristan, of course, yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah. We also need to mention Marie de France.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
But also rooting perhaps to the British tradition, the Breton, Brittany, that sort of link.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
She was writing in the late 1100s. Yes. There's also Robert de Boron who invents another motif. Do you want to guess what Arthurian motif he adds into the canon?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yes! Is it? God, you're doing very well at this.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
That's amazing. And what's interesting after that is we get what's called the Vulgate cycle.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
A slight pivot in the direction of the themes.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
When is this? Early 1200s. So we start to see a slight pivot away from the adventures of knights and it's becoming a little bit more about Christian purity and the idea of the ideal knight. And this is the time of Crusades, right?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Have you heard of Le Morte d'Arthur as a book by Thomas Mallory? Have you read it?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
You know your stuff, don't you, Mike?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, you're spot on. Yeah, so, OK, you haven't read it, but you know that he's a bit of a character. Yeah. I mean, Mary, this is very much the Marvel Cinematic Universe of the 15th century. Here is someone trying to grapple with an enormous, sprawling collection of stories where people are rewriting, rewriting, rewriting, and he's gone, oh, we need to standardise this.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
We need to bring this all into one coherent narrative, a beginning, middle and end, about King Arthur, and he dies at the end. So what is the mess that he tries to cohere?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Is that where we start our quest for King Arthur?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
We call it Le Morte d'Arthur, which sounds pretty sexy. Yes, no, it wasn't called... And it was a major spoiler. Yeah, yeah, actually, that's true. You're right, actually, yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So it's just before the Tudor era. It's right at the end of the Middle Ages.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
You can check out.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
He was the sort of first great printer in English, the English language. And so Le Morte d'Arthur is his sort of rebrand of this great text. Mallory is a politician. He's a sort of... Sheriff. He does some bad stuff. He ends up in prison. So tell us, who was he?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yes. So Le Morte d'Arthur is a sort of compendium of stories. We break it down into eight tales.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It's got 150, hasn't it?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, a good round number.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And it's worth just saying also that Galahad sits on the siege perilous, the sort of the scary chair. Yes, he's the dude, isn't he?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And he does it. He does a grail. He's like, bosh, nailed it.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So this is the kind of classic text that students read, well, try and read, and then very quickly give up. So it's a romance, but it's not that romantic as everyone dies at the end. Yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So we've discussed literature. We should talk quickly about Arthurian artefacts, or Arthur-facts, if you will, which is to say that in the Middle Ages, people started finding proof. Yeah. Question mark.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, that's Richard the Lionheart. Richard the Lionheart gives Arthur's sword.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
We've got King John. He's got Sir Tristan's sword. Yep. Some say it's still used in royal coronations.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It's not. It's not.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And Dover had Gawain's head.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Winchester built a round table.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
My favourite one of all, Cambridge University in the 1400s claims that King Arthur had given them a tax exemption and it was hand-delivered by Sir Gawain himself.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
But the real Arthur aficionados in the medieval world were big on it. But the Victorians, they loved a bit of Arthurian honour.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
He's a conqueror. He unifies Britain.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
We also get, of course, Victorian print books have beautiful illustrations. That's another big appeal. You see gorgeous art. And in a previous episode, we've talked about the arts and crafts movement and they were obsessed with Arthur as well. Paintings. Paintings and all sorts of things. So we've got kind of really rich sort of Arthurian poetry and so on.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
But there's also women involved here, too. We've got more important figures here.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, fan fiction unleashed. Yeah. Nice. So Gawain out on the porch with his shotgun. Yeah. A cool box.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
A very famous photographer, really important.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And often we'll see lots of exhibitions about her these days. She's sort of back in vogue.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
These are people who also were using Arthuriana to justify the British Empire.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
stick a flag in it home for neighbours I think it might be your moustache Mike but there feels like a 19th century leadership quality to you I feel like I want to follow you into battle but you won't be invading Britain any time soon I'm assuming I'll try not to I'm fighting the urge every day of learning There are lots of landmarks. I know we've talked about some already.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Just very quickly, what are sort of the real classic landmarks? Tintagel, Mike's mentioned.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And the grave of Arthur and Guinevere was found.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
When they needed some funding. Yeah, and it's been visited ever since. Oh right, so it's genuine.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It was a very useful discovery. Why not upgrade to annual membership?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
They had a fire and they needed to rebuild and suddenly, out of nowhere, King Arthur! What are the chances?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Everywhere's got one of those.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
The polls have got one of those.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Your Polish heritage is coming out there.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh, of course.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Mike, do you know which British city has Arthur's seal, Arthur's coat of arms on their modern civic seal? I want to say Winchester. It's a good guess. They've got the round table, right? Yeah, exactly. I would guess Bath because, you know, we talked about the Bath button. It's none of those. Aberystwyth. No, it's... It's Hull. Is it really?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yes, Kingston upon Hull.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So it's time now for the nuance window. This is where Mike and I sit quietly at the round table for two minutes with our many, many, many other nights. And we give Dr. Mary two minutes to tell us something we need to know. So my stopwatch is ready. Without much further ado, the nuance window, please.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Amazing. Thank you so much. There you go. To King Arthur. He's the once and future king because actually he keeps coming back.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So there we go. How do you feel about King Arthur now, Mike?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
You said earlier on that you had like rough outlines.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
First night, not so good.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Exactly, exactly. So what do you know now? It's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Mike to see how much he has learned. Are you feeling confident? I don't think I am feeling confident.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
I feel like you contributed very well to the overall conversation, so I'm not going to hold it against you if this is where you fall down. So, ten questions. Here we go. Question one. Which English chronicler wrote A History of the Kings of Britain, inspiring others to create Arthurian romance literature? Your friend and mine, Geoffrey of Monmouth. It was. Question two.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It was way too many knights. Question three. In the story of Colic and Elwynn, what weird talent did Lip, son of Placid, possess?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
What a skill. OK, question four. Why might Geoffrey of Monmouth have changed Merlin's name from Mervyn?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Beautifully done. Question five. How did Morgan Le Fay's character arc change over the medieval period?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, a treacherous half-sister. An incestuous mother of Mordred, yes. Question six. Name one Arthurian artefact that allegedly medieval kings claimed to own.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Giving it to the King of Sicily or some Duke of Sicily? Yeah, Tancred. Yeah, well remembered. Very good. You could have also had the Sword of St Tristan after his crown as well. And Gawain's head was in Dover for some reason. Question seven. Who wrote Le Morte d'Arthur while in prison? Thomas Mallory. He was. He was the Geoffrey Archer of his age. Question eight.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
According to Chrétien de Troyes, what was the Holy Grail? Oh, it was a serving platter.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Not a cup after all. Yeah, it was a serving platter for the Eucharist. Question nine. Juliet Margaret Cameron's photographs illustrated the ideals of the king written by which famous poet laureate? Tennyson. This for a perfect ten, Mike. Which British city has King Arthur's supposed coat of arms in its crest? Hull. Ten out of ten. That's amazing. Mike Wozniak. You are King Arthur after all.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
You're back. It must be true.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
You're great at this.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
There you go. All right, well, thank you so much. Listener, if you crave more Wozniak in your life, of course you do. Check out our episodes on Stone Age Chattel Hoyuk. Chattel Hoyuk, do you remember that?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Or, of course, Dickens at Christmas, a very festive episode. And for more lovely legends, we've got an episode on Atlantis, which was not real, but very interesting. And remember, if you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review, share the show with friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
But I just want to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the brilliant Dr Mary Bateman from the University of Bristol. Thank you, Mary.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It's been lovely. And in Comedy Corner, we have the marvellous, king himself, Mike Wozniak, the once and future Arthur. Thank you, Mike. It's lovely. I've loved it. Thank you so much. Fabulous. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we ride off on another historical quest. But for now, I'm off to go and trim my beard. First, I just need to find a wild boar. Bye!
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by John Norman Mason and Hannah Cusworth. It was written by John Norman Mason, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So King Arthur, not necessarily a king, possibly a Roman. Yes. Might be a Briton or a Romano-British. Right.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
I learned it was Nennius when I was at university.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Pseudo-Nennius. I know people like that.
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are saddling our noble steeds and galloping back to the Middle Ages in search of the legendary King Arthur. And to help us on our quest, we have two chivalrous companions at arms.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah. Wearing woolens. Going to a farmer's market on a Sunday.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
They've been looking after the environment.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And then Brutus shows up. Yeah. With his Greek ways and stabs them. Exactly. Swinging it about.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
That's right. It's not very nice. No. Come on. So this document, Historia Britannum, or The History of the Britons. Yes. We're not sure who writes it. Maybe Nennius, Pseudo-Nennius. He doesn't call Arthur King Arthur.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, dux bellorum. Lovely. It's nice, isn't it? That's a really lovely phrase. So I have to ask the big question, is he real?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So we don't know if there was a real King Arthur. Not to say that there wasn't, but I'm not convinced. Maybe King Arthur is just a friend we made along the way. He's just an idea. It brings us together. So the next text we have to talk about would be a Welsh classic. My pronunciation is going to be dreadful, but Mabinogion...
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
In History Corner, she's a lecturer at the University of Bristol, where her research focuses on the literature of late medieval and early modern England. Luckily for us, she's also the author of the prize-winning book, Local Places and the Arthurian Tradition in England and Wales, 1400 to 1700. It's Dr Mary Bateman. Welcome, Mary.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
So written maybe sort of post-Norman conquest, but possibly even older stories.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
All I'm hearing here, Mary, is he invented Taskmaster. That's what I'm hearing. Mike, 40 tasks, off you go.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It's wonderfully weird, but it's brilliant. It's amazing, but it's quite Studio Ghibli. It's quite like talking animals and weird forests. There's lots of people turning into boars.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
It feels quite, I don't know.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
How did you know that?
You're Dead to Me
Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
And in Comedy Corner, making a triumphant return to the show, he's a comedian, an actor, a podcaster. You'll have seen him in Taskmaster, Man Down, and again in Taskmaster as Rosematter Fayot's assistant on the wonderful Junior Taskmaster, which is lovely. Plus, you'll have heard his dulcet tones on many podcasts, including my absolute fave comedy podcast, Three Bean Salad. Check it out.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah. What's Excalibur called? Because it's not called Excalibur yet, the sword.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Sure, yeah, multi-powered, yeah.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
That's good, isn't it? So we're definitely edging towards Guinevere. We're getting towards Gawain. So it's starting to feel Arthurian. Beginning to feel familiar, yeah. But it's not quite there yet.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
Yeah, and according to the tale of... How do you pronounce it? Killuck?
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
According to the tale of Killuck and Oren, we've got King Arthur and a host of 260... Oh, blimey. Quite a lot of people he's gathered around his table. They've got some special talents. Some of them are quite weird special talents, Mary. Yes. We've got Sight, son of Seer.
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Legends of King Arthur: from medieval literature to modern myth
But you'll know him best from our previous episodes, including our festive special about Charles Dickens himself. It's Mike Wozniak. Welcome back, Mike. Thank you very much for having me back. I'm very excited.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
No, I love a bit more boring. That's very much over here. But that has brought us on to the idea of Catholicism and coffee. So we've already mentioned Islam and that kind of big debate over those sort of theological questions of can you have this as a licit or illicit drink? How do you think the Pope, Pope Clement VIII, where do you think he stood on the moral question of coffee in the 1600s?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Welcome back for a sixth appearance, Sophie.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
That's a shame, though, because the line, this devil's drink is delicious, is a really good line. It's a good one. Stick that on a T-shirt.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Someone phone up Mespresso and say, we've got a new marketing line for you. So we've seen in the Ottoman world that the idea of the coffee house could be seditious and dangerous, but also there would be intellectual activity there. People gathering, discussing, debating political ideas. Does the same thing happen in Europe?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Yeah. She was busy doing the Grammys or something.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Do we see the sudden arrival of a kind of coffee culture that is philosophical and enlightened and scientific? Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
A key important question here. I'm relying on you. Do you drink coffee?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Esquerose, Greek Orthodox, was it? Yeah, exactly. Immigrant to London. He published an advert for his coffee shop, which he listed coffee as having many health benefits, Sophie. He said it aided digestion, prevents drowsiness, prevents miscarriages, helps sore eyes and headaches, cures coughs, consumption, which is tuberculosis, scurvy, dropsy and gout. Wow.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
What's modern? I mean, it's a wonder drug, clearly, in the 17th century. How would you market coffee now if you were going to add extra things it does? What's your additional claims?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
We'll settle on that. It's not a ringing endorsement, but we'll settle for that, Jonathan. OK, so we've heard health benefits and claims being advertised by Pasqua Rose, who opens the first coffee house in London in 1652. And we get this intellectual culture in coffee houses. You know, they become places of more than just socialisation. Is that right? Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
The insuring firm. The insuring firm. The stock exchange that powers the City of London and the insurance industry both start in coffee houses. Correct. That's quite impressive.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Perfect guest for the podcast.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
And we also get some quite famous names from the 1600s showing up in these coffee houses to have some big, big old chats. Isaac Newton. Oh, yeah. And Edmund Halley, famous for his comet spotting abilities. They were founding members of the Royal Society of Science. They met and did a public demonstration in London's Grecian Coffee House. What did they demonstrate, Sophie? What did they do?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
If I say to you dissection, what animal do you think they might be dissecting live in a coffee house? A frog.
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
A live dissection of a dolphin in a coffee house.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Oh, boy. We also need to talk about Voltaire. You studied French. Yes, I did. So you know who Voltaire is. I do know who Voltaire is.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
He enjoyed his coffee. How many cups a day do you think he drank?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
That's a lot of coffee.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So the intellectual revolution was, you know, the Royal Society, powered by coffee, the insurance industry, the economic industry. I mean, coffee is powering everything. And I suppose the interesting question is, this is an import from the Arab world via the Ottoman Empire, who sometimes are the enemy, right? In the 17th century, we have these huge wars between Christianity and Islam.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So the Turkish... are the enemy, and yet this is a Turkish drink. I mean, what... Is there a rebranding? Is there a sort of awkwardness there?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
I don't drink coffee at all. I don't know anything about coffee. So Jonathan, I'm assuming you're a coffee drinker.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So cafe au lait. So cafe au lait. So it's a French compromise. They are willing to accept an exotic foreign import, but they have to find a way to... Yeah, to kind of Frenchify it. We need to talk about the darker side of this coffee boom. Where do these things originate from? We've heard they came from Ethiopia, then Yemen, then the wider Islamic world.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
But by the 1600s and definitely 1700s, we're getting coffee plantations? Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
All right. And you're going to talk us through the history of coffee. So we're going to learn plenty today. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So by the 1780s, 80% of the world's coffee supply comes from the Caribbean. Yes.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Right, okay. So where does Britain muscle in to this history?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
And whether you've got a crippling caffeine problem, whether you keep it decaf, whether, like Sophie, it is a dangerous thing for you, or if you're like me, you just can't stand the bitterness, you all know what coffee is. I don't know if it explains to you what coffee is. In terms of pop culture, coffee is just part of our life. Coffee shops crop up all over our favourite pop culture.
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
OK, so we've had some pretty horrible history there. Let's try and be a little cheerier. Sophie, when do you think America fell in love with their cup of joe, the US? What do you think their kind of inciting moment is where they go, hang on a second, we're coffee drinkers?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Oh, you've gone late?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
You've gone, okay, so you're like 1880s.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Okay, fine. If I say to you, Boston Tea Party. No. You just reject that outright. No.
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So you've gone too early now, I think, maybe. Or maybe you haven't. Jonathan, the Boston Tea Party is obviously in the 1770s.
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
As a patriotic act.
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So the American Civil War was in the 1860s, obviously. And this extraordinary thing, soldiers' diaries mention the word coffee more than the word bullet or rifle. We also have a soldier called Lieutenant Colonel Walter King. It's a soldier in Missouri Cavalry Regiment who designs a rifle which has got an inbuilt coffee grinder.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
You've got Central Perkin Friends. You've got Luke's Diner and Gilmore Girls. You've got Will Ferrell enjoying the best cup of coffee in the world in Elf. Giles from Buffy, featuring in the Sexy Nescafe adverts from the 90s. You've got Sabrina Carpenter, already mentioned by Sophie, the espresso summertime hit.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
If you can install a coffee grinder into any everyday item, what would you go for? Put you on the spot.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
I feel I know where you're going with this. OK. But... Moving on. Thank you for your contribution, Sophie. Okay. We also get, Jonathan, at this time, customers buying loose green coffee beans. They're roasting them at home. So you can now make coffee at home. We get mechanical improvements too, don't we? Jabez Burns is important.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
And my personal fave would be Paul Rudd ranting in Role Models about the stupidly inconsistent name of all the different coffee sizes. Venti means 20, he shouts. But what about the history of coffee? How did it become the world's favourite beverage? And what do goats have to do with it? Let's find out. Right, Professor Jonathan, can we start with the basics?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Thank you. Thank you.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
I'm pretty sure Nespresso pods do not grow on trees. That is correct. Good. They do not. Good. No.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
And there's caffeine in those seeds beans.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
It is Starbucks. And this is important, I suppose, for economic reasons, for corporate reasons, but also just the sort of taste reasons in terms of the idea of speciality coffees, the idea of coffee as something you can enjoy, almost like you can enjoy red wine.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Sophie, maybe you're being enchanted.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So there we go, Sif. We've done a lot of latte history. We've gone around the world. We've seen coffee was religious, medical, political, colonial, cultural, industrial. Does it change your view? Are you more tempted to go out and drink a coffee now or are you less tempted? Yeah.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Yeah, we've heard a lot today about people getting together and being together and socialising, chatting, communing.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
This is where Sophie and I sit silently and sip our moccas for two minutes while Professor Jonathan tells us something we need to know about the history of coffee. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Jonathan.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Where in the world do these beans, trees, shrubs, whatever they are, grow? Where is their natural habitat?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Wonderful. Thank you. Sophie, any thoughts on that?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So what do you know now? It's time now for So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Sophie to see how much she has learned. We have fired a huge amount of history at you across the globe. You're one of our quiz queens, however. You are notoriously good at this. Are you feeling the pressure?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Amazing. OK, I've got ten questions for you. Here we go. Question one. A man named Kaldi allegedly discovered coffee beans when dancing with which over-caffeinated animals? It was a goat. It was his goats. They were enjoying the bean. Question two. Which Arab country was at the centre of the first coffee trade?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
It was Yemen. Well done. Question three. Why did Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent close coffee shops in 1565?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Lovely. There is a story. There's a sort of lovely myth that people like to talk about. The first time people got hooked on caffeine in these wild coffee plants involved an animal. Sophie, do you want to guess what the animal was and what the story was?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Question four. What did Pope Clement VIII never do but allegedly call coffee?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Very good. That's right. He never actually said it, but we like it so much it's in the quiz. Question five. What patriotic coffee drink was invented in France in the 18th century?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Café au lait. Café au lait. Question six. What did Isaac Newton and Edmund Halley get up to in London's Grecian coffee house?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Flipper. Question seven. Can you name two supposed health benefits of coffee according to Pasquale Rose's 1652 advert?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Very good. That's two. That's good. Very good. You could add sore eyes, dropsy, gout, scurvy, drowsiness. It does everything. Of course, it doesn't. Question eight. What ingenious coffee-related device was invented by a soldier during the American Civil War?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
He did put a grinder in his rifle. Well done. Question nine. What didn't the original Starbucks sell?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Well, I mean, it's been extraordinary history. Thank you so much, Jonathan. Thank you, Sophie. OK, listener, if you want to double down on Duca, you can check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, Ashanti Garner, The Chevalier de Saint-Georges, if you want some musical history.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
And for more foodie historical stuff, we have episodes on the history of chocolate, on the history of ice cream, and on celebrity chef Alexis Soyer, which is one of my favourite episodes. That's a very fun one. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear the episodes one month before other platforms, lucky you, Make sure also to have your notifications switched on so you never miss an episode. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the coffee historian himself, Professor Jonathan Morris from the University of Hertfordshire. Thank you, Jonathan.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
I will. I will give it my best. And in Comedy Corner, we had the ever-sensational Sophie Duker. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you so much. Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we savour another historical delight. But for now, I'm off to try and convince the Pope to sanction my debilitating hot chocolate habit. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Matt Ryan.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse and our executive editor was James Cook. You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios audio production for BBC Radio 4.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
It is a goat. So tell me the story. Recount for me this fabled myth.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Fighting trolls is a lovely reference.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Yeah, there's one involving Solomon, King Solomon.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grinding our beans, popping on the kettle and plunging our cafetiere as we learn all about the history of coffee. And to help us get caffeinated and educated, we've invited over two very special coffee guests.
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Yeah. Very fast. That's our kind of mythic origins. But what about an actual historical reference, Jonathan? Have we got something that we can we can say this is the first mention of coffee?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
But it may have been older. That's just our earliest reference.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Ethiopia to Yemen crosses across the Straits and into Yemen, so we're into the Arab world. From Yemen, do we get it then spreading out through those sort of trade routes out through the Middle East?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Gotcha. And so it spreads through trade routes. You've got Mecca, Jeddah, Medina, Cairo, these big, big cities in the Islamic world. At what point do people go, But it tastes nice and I'm not a sophistic, but could I just drink it? When does it become a beverage?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
So it's within the rules of Islam, you can drink coffee.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Sophie, this Pasha, which means governor really, he's called, I think, Kayir Beg. Why do you think he wants to ban coffee? What do you think is a problem about it?
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History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
In the caffeinated.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
In History Corner, he's a research professor in history at the University of Hertfordshire, where he's a historian of consumption, especially the history of coffee. Maybe you've read his book, Coffee, A Global History, or listened to his podcast series, A History of Coffee. It's Professor Jonathan Morris. Welcome, Jonathan. Thank you, Greg. Lovely to have you here and in Comedy Corner.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
I think there's a good instance. I mean, that's probably about right, I think, Jonathan.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Gosh. So students of the 1500s. And it's Suleiman the Magnificent. He closes down the coffee houses in Istanbul and Aleppo and Damascus. And yet somehow, as you say, the coffee house culture starts to thrive.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Yeah. I see. Okay. By the 1600s, I think we find coffee in Europe. So how does it come into Europe, Jonathan?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
She's an award-winning comedian and writer. You will recognise her from loads of TV, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster. Maybe you've seen her new stand-up show, But Daddy, I Love Her. It's fantastic. And of course, you'll remember her from our back catalogue, including recent episodes on Naughty Nun, Benedetta Carlini and The Legend of Atlantis. It's Sophie Duker.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
And this stuff, this is called a fin can. Is it a fin can?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
Sophie, would you take a prescription of coffee? It doesn't sound like it would do you any good.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
I wanted to ask you actually, Sophie, do you know where the name cappuccino comes from?
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
What's the etymological? It comes from, so we have, I guess in our typical language, we have two words for cappuccino. One would be a type of monkey.
You're Dead to Me
History of Coffee: from devil’s brew to our favourite beverage
The other one will be a type of monk. So it's named after the monks. It's named after the Italian Capuchin friars who wore brown robes. And so cappuccino is named after the type of brown robes that they wore.