Greg Jenner is joined by Professor Jonathan Morris and comedian Sophie Duker to learn all about the bittersweet history of coffee.Coffee is undoubtedly one of the most popular drinks worldwide, and we consume an estimated 95 million cups of the stuff everyday in the UK alone. But where does coffee come from, and when did we start enjoying its caffeinated effects? From its origins in medieval Ethiopia and Yemen, through the coffeehouses of the Middle East and Europe, to its central importance to soldiers during the American Civil War, this episode traces the complex history of our favourite beverage. Along the way, it explores the uses people have had for coffee over the years, in religious rituals, as a stimulant to intellectual exchange, and even as a medicine. We also debunk some of the myths that have been brewed up about coffee’s history. Did the Pope really call it ‘the devil’s brew’? Was it discovered by an Ethiopian goatherd? And did a Dutch man really have to smuggle coffee trees out of Yemen? Listen to find out! If you’re a fan of delicious disputes over food, wild medical treatments from centuries past and murky historical myths, you’ll love our episode on the history of coffee.If you want more from Sophie Duker, check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini or the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. And for more on culinary creations of the past, listen to our episodes on the history of chocolate and ice cream.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Matt Ryan Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook
Chapter 1: What is the history of coffee and its cultural significance?
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are grinding our beans, popping on the kettle and plunging our cafetiere as we learn all about the history of coffee. And to help us get caffeinated and educated, we've invited over two very special coffee guests.
Chapter 2: Who are the special guests discussing the history of coffee?
In History Corner, he's a research professor in history at the University of Hertfordshire, where he's a historian of consumption, especially the history of coffee. Maybe you've read his book, Coffee, A Global History, or listened to his podcast series, A History of Coffee. It's Professor Jonathan Morris. Welcome, Jonathan. Thank you, Greg. Lovely to have you here and in Comedy Corner.
She's an award-winning comedian and writer. You will recognise her from loads of TV, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster. Maybe you've seen her new stand-up show, But Daddy, I Love Her. It's fantastic. And of course, you'll remember her from our back catalogue, including recent episodes on Naughty Nun, Benedetta Carlini and The Legend of Atlantis. It's Sophie Duker.
Welcome back for a sixth appearance, Sophie.
Hey, I'm actually fuming because I heard that you tried to get Sabrina Carpenter for this episode. Yeah.
Yeah. She was busy doing the Grammys or something.
I was busy watching the Grammys. So actually.
A key important question here. I'm relying on you. Do you drink coffee?
I restrict my coffee intake because I like the smell of coffee. Right. And I like it as a sort of cultural concept. It makes me feel like I want to die.
Perfect guest for the podcast.
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Chapter 3: How did coffee originate and spread across the world?
The seeds, which we for some reason call beans, are what we use to make the coffee. So we have to kind of get the seeds out and turn that into coffee.
And there's caffeine in those seeds beans.
There is caffeine in those seeds beans. And reputedly, it's there to put off some of the insects that might otherwise prey on the coffee. However, it also enchants the bees that pollinate it.
Oh, that's very wholesome.
Sophie, maybe you're being enchanted.
I'm being enchanted. I want to take some Joe back to the hive.
And it's the seeds, beans, that we import green and then roast to get the colour of coffee that we know and the smell of coffee that we know and the taste.
Where in the world do these beans, trees, shrubs, whatever they are, grow? Where is their natural habitat?
So the natural habitat is really in Ethiopia, southwest Ethiopia. And from there they have spread around the world. There are about 120 species of coffee, but the one that we use the most, which is called Arabica, is of course from Ethiopia.
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Chapter 4: Did a goat really discover coffee?
And that's an Ethiopian heritage. It's an Ethiopian heritage. It's really from the sort of the southwest of Ethiopia. There are a few other stories.
Yeah, there's one involving Solomon, King Solomon.
Yeah, that's right. Apparently the angel Gabriel came down and said to Solomon, you know, roast and throw some coffee beans and you'll cure the illness of the entire town. You'll make them lively and active again, etc.
I love that like animals getting intoxicated is our gateway into like medicine. Because I think there is a legend about the discovery of palm wine. And it's because that's why I asked if it was a big animal, because apparently elephants would be like sort of rutting at the trees and getting pissed. And you just have some really intense goats having like really deep conversations.
Yeah. Very fast. That's our kind of mythic origins. But what about an actual historical reference, Jonathan? Have we got something that we can we can say this is the first mention of coffee?
I think what we can best say is we've got the first Arabic manuscript that mentions coffee that we can definitively say mentions coffee. And that's written in about 1515, written by a guy with a very long name that ends in Al-Jazari. It concentrates and tells his version of the story of coffee. And in it, he highlights that another sort of Sufi mystic, a man called Al-Dubani, was
said that the Sufis should bring over coffee to Yemen from Ethiopia to consume in place of cat, which was in short supply, because this would enable them to sort of stay awake and go into their trance-like state while they were carrying out their nightly devotions. So that seems to be the most viable option, as it were, for what we can say is sort of the earliest clear use of coffee in that way.
But it may have been older. That's just our earliest reference.
That's our earliest reference. There's bits in the famous physician who we used to call Avicenna, who kind of wrote loads of books. There's some references there to something that you might think is coffee, but you could equally label as almost anything else based on that description. So we don't know for sure.
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Chapter 5: How did coffee become a social beverage in Islamic and European cultures?
It comes from a tiny wooden boy who used to lie all the time. Pretty sure that's not where it comes from. Cappuccino. I, yeah, I can't, no, I'm going to stick with lying puppet boy. Strong guess. I also think that's, I wish I was like a grime MC or something because cappuccino is the best thing I've ever said. What's the, what's the like, what's the root?
What's the etymological? It comes from, so we have, I guess in our typical language, we have two words for cappuccino. One would be a type of monkey.
Oh yeah.
The other one will be a type of monk. So it's named after the monks. It's named after the Italian Capuchin friars who wore brown robes. And so cappuccino is named after the type of brown robes that they wore.
This is a fun one because people kind of look at a cappuccino today and think it looks like a monk because it's got the white on the top. So it must be the bald shaved monk. Right. And then it's got a little bit of brown on the outside. But actually, it originates from Vienna and it's cappuccino.
And really what it is, is the amount of milk I want in my coffee to make it the color of the robes that cappuccins wear. Because actually, cappuccins don't do tonsure.
Yes.
So a bit more boring than it.
No, I love a bit more boring. That's very much over here. But that has brought us on to the idea of Catholicism and coffee. So we've already mentioned Islam and that kind of big debate over those sort of theological questions of can you have this as a licit or illicit drink? How do you think the Pope, Pope Clement VIII, where do you think he stood on the moral question of coffee in the 1600s?
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Chapter 6: How did the coffee house culture influence intellectual and commercial activities?
So the Turkish... are the enemy, and yet this is a Turkish drink. I mean, what... Is there a rebranding? Is there a sort of awkwardness there?
There are both of those things, I think. I mean, there's a fascination and a repulsion, and they both come into it. Okay. In the sense that, you know, you get this thing that, you know, when the Turks come and visit, usually in delegations, they might bring their coffee with them. People get very turned on, as it were, to, you know, the Turkish way of life and the things that they do.
And, I mean, the great example is in France, where... Yeah. There's this sort of story, and we're not quite sure how it happened, but sort of somebody comes. The idea is that they're going to be the emiracy to Louis XIV. And they essentially tell Louis XIV that, yes, they're actually from this absolutely grand sultan. And Louis XIV says, no one's more grand than me, mate. Go away.
And so he stays there for a year. Now, exactly how this works, but they set up a whole kind of Turkish house for this delegation. And they start hosting members of the French nobility and French court and plying them with coffee and other sort of Turkish delicacies. And this creates this whole phenomenon of what they call Turkomania.
And that sort of does, in one hand, fuel the sort of the start of coffee. And it's that sort of trendy thing. But then on the other, there's this thing about, well, what do we do with this coffee?
Yeah.
How do we kind of make it a little bit more us? The answer to that is, well, we'll throw in milk, our milk.
So cafe au lait. So cafe au lait. So it's a French compromise. They are willing to accept an exotic foreign import, but they have to find a way to... Yeah, to kind of Frenchify it. We need to talk about the darker side of this coffee boom. Where do these things originate from? We've heard they came from Ethiopia, then Yemen, then the wider Islamic world.
But by the 1600s and definitely 1700s, we're getting coffee plantations? Yeah.
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