Greg Jenner is joined in 16th-Century Mexico by Dr Amy Fuller and comedian Jen Brister to learn about Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés and his translator Malintzin.In 1521, the powerful Aztec empire was brutally conquered by the Spanish, led by the ambitious and fanatical Hernán Cortés. After a falling-out with his boss in Cuba, Cortés disobeyed orders and led an expedition party into Mexico. He was helped in his conquest by local peoples who bore a grudge against the Aztecs, chief amongst them the woman who became his translator: Malintzin. A skilled linguist, Malintzin was given to Cortés upon his arrival in Mexico, but after gaining her freedom was central to Cortés’s success. The two even had a son together.This episode tells the story of Cortés and Malintzin before, during and after the conquest, exploring how an Indigenous woman came to translate for a conquistador. From Malintzin’s murky childhood to Cortés’s desperate attempts to impress the king of Spain, via the rumours that he killed his first wife and the complicated politics of Mexico, we examine these two intertwined lives. If you’re a fan of bloody conquests, Indigenous histories and women surviving at any cost, you’ll love our episode on Cortés and Malintzin.If you want more from Jen Brister, check out our episode on Emma of Normandy. And for more Latin American history, listen to our episodes on the Aztecs and the Columbian Exchange.You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Aida Abbashar Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook
Chapter 1: Who are Hernán Cortés and Malintzin?
Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today we are sharpening our language skills and sailing across the Atlantic to 16th century Mexico to learn all about the conquistador Hernan Cortes and his indigenous translator Malintzin.
And to help us understand this pair, we have a pair of very special guests. In History Corner, she's Senior Lecturer in the History of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University. Her research focuses on early modern Spain and Mexico, specifically religion, identity and empire. It's Dr Amy Fuller. Welcome, Amy. Thanks for having me. Delighted to have you here and in Comedy Corner.
She's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the TV shows, including Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen her on tour or read or listened to her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother, I Love the Audiobook, or her podcast, WTB, which I think is short for a slightly ruder title.
And you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Emma of Normandy, an absolute classic. It's Jen Brister. Welcome, Jen. Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure. We had a lot of fun last time in medieval England trying to remember that everyone was called Elfgivu.
Oh my God, what a name, Elfgivu. And not only that, not having any knowledge about my own history, that is quite something. And now I'm half English and I'm half Spanish, so what I've realised is in the last episode I knew nothing about English history and today it'll be proven I know nothing about Spanish history. LAUGHTER
and mexican history mexican history even less okay do you know the name cortez i feel like he's a fairly big name from history i recognized the name cortez but it wasn't and i thought i don't know who is this chap and it was after i i did a cursory google amy i hope you won't mind but i went oh that guy yeah yeah so i do unlike last time i was on the podcast where i had
absolutely no knowledge at all of what was going on i would say i have three and a half percent more knowledge on this particular subject so yeah guys wait to be wowed so what do you know
This is the So What Do You Know, where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. I'm guessing you've heard the name Cortez, the Conquistador. I feel like it's a name that's in the ether. He's appeared in all kinds of TV shows and films, most notably as the big baddie in the DreamWorks animation The Road to El Dorado.
But unless you are Mexican or maybe American, I suspect Melintzin, I imagine she's perhaps a lot less familiar as a name. She's the subject of several Spanish language plays, operas and books, and appears in some famous murals, one painted by Diego Rivera. In Mexico City, he was the husband of Frida Kahlo.
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Chapter 2: What was Hernán Cortés' early life like?
It is. It's greedy. And what about his childhood?
Was he, goes to school, educated? Yeah, we don't know a massive amount about him, to be honest. There's differing ideas about how educated he was. Some people say he went to the University of Salamanca for a time. We think he probably had some legal training. Fairly well educated, I'd say. He tells us a lot about himself. He... He is his favourite subject. Gotcha.
So there's an element of him telling his own history that he wants people to know. Oh, very much so, yes. Fair enough. But in 1492, do you know what happened in 1492, Jen? Oh my gosh, don't ask me.
Do you want me to guess? Yeah, go on. So he's born in 1485, so in 1492 he is, what, seven?
He is.
So he is sent away. That's a good guess. He's sent away to school.
Yeah, well, more broadly in history, what do you think is happening in terms of Spanish history or global history in 1492? Some kind of war. I mean, there are a lot of wars, but it's Columbus.
Right, so I was going to ask you to contextualise Columbus in this. OK, go on.
Hernán Cortés is seven years old. Columbus sails on behalf of the Spanish king and queen in search of India and bumps into what's called the New World, inverted commas. It's obviously not new to the people who live there. So what makes Hernan Cortes decide he wants to follow in Columbus's wake? Because soon after, like 10, 12 years later, he's on a ship.
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Chapter 3: How did Cortés rise to power in Cuba?
No, no one has at this point.
And he is, well, we've already heard he's doing horrible things to the indigenous peoples. He's trying to get cash, but he's got a job.
Yes. Is he a legal job? Yes. So he's a notary for a while. And then in 1511, he takes part in the conquest of Cuba, which was organized by Diego Velasquez, who then becomes the governor of Cuba. Yes. Initially, Velazquez is very impressed by him. He becomes his secretary. And that's when Cortés starts to rise to prominence. He gains more wealth and power.
He's granted what's called an encomienda, which is essentially... It's legal slavery, basically. Oh, dear. Yeah, OK. It's a grant of indigenous labour. So you don't actually own the people because they're supposedly Spanish citizens, right?
Yeah.
But you have control of their labour. So it is basically slavery.
OK. Yes. So forced labour that the Spanish crown is allowing to happen. Yes.
Yes, yes.
So the encomienda system is obviously being cooked up to exploit the indigenous peoples. But the relationship with Velazquez, who's sort of his boss, sort of his patron, sounds quite tense, Jen. It sounds quite... Competitive? Competitive, yes. Why do you think they fell out? What do you reckon the spark was?
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