For Valentine's Day, stories from the heart of heartbreak. Visit thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners to sign up for our premium subscription.Prologue: Host Ira Glass talks with Lauren Waterman, who's in the middle of a break-up right now and grappling with totally contradictory feelings. (5 minutes)Act One: In the wake of a break-up, writer Starlee Kine finds so much comfort in break-up songs that she decides to try and write one herself—even though she has no musical ability whatsoever. For some help, she goes to a rather surprising expert on the subject: Phil Collins. (29 minutes)Act Two: Eight-year-old Betsy Walter goes on a campaign to understand her parents' divorce — a campaign that takes her to school guidance counselors, children's book authors, and the mayor of New York City. (10 minutes)Act Three: Ira talks with divorce mediator Barry Berkman about why it's bad when the justice system gets involved in a break-up. (8 minutes)Act Four: What divorce looks like from the dog's point of view. (5 minutes)Transcripts are available at thisamericanlife.orgThis American Life privacy policy.Learn more about sponsor message choices.
Chapter 1: What feelings do we experience during a breakup?
From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.
It's so embarrassing. I don't want to get upset. But, like, he has a car. So the last time I saw him on purpose was just in the car in front of my house. And, I don't know, it's just bad.
Bad like when you walk out of your house, you think, like, there his car was.
Yeah, I still look for it. It's crazy.
Okay, now we're about a block from your house.
Like on that, in front of that building. Right there. This like churchy looking building. It was where we were parked when we first had the conversation where we decided we were going to be exclusive. Which was a joke. Like I don't really date around and I don't think he does either. But you know, it's kind of a big conversation.
But yeah, we were parked in the middle of that block right where that white car is.
And so every time you walk down this street, you'll think like, oh, yeah, there's the spot.
I don't walk down this street. I just don't. Like, I haven't even seen him for a month. You know what I mean?
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Chapter 2: How can music help during heartbreak?
I don't know, we used to just... It's not that we took a ton of walks, but... We took some walks.
And what happened down here?
You know, I can't... I can't say that anything of substance happened. It's not like any one specific thing. It's just... I don't know.
It's just that there was an us.
I know, there really was. That's the thing that's so weird. It's like... You know, you just... You put so much energy into something and then one day it's time to stop. I don't know.
During a breakup, you just stare at what happened. There's a before and there's an after, and you just can't believe it. Lauren says she still doesn't even understand what went wrong between her and him. And that's part of it, too, so much of the time. Well, we got the idea for today's radio show from an email that a listener sent. It says... here.
Dear This American Life, I'm suffering from a gut-wrenching breakup with my former boyfriend, and I searched your site for shows about breakups and general heartbreak to commiserate. But to my surprise, I didn't find many stories specifically regarding the act of breaking up. I hope you consider it. A show like that would really cheer me up.
And so, with that in mind, we devote our show today to breakups. Partly today we have an anatomy of the completely contradictory feelings that are part of a breakup. I think that's what makes it such a special and particularly cursed state. And we have stories today about people trying in some very unusual, very resourceful ways to make themselves feel better during a breakup.
Key word there would be trying. Our show today in four acts. In Act 1, Starlee Kine heads out on a breakup mission unlike any we have ever heard of. In Act 2, an 8-year-old heads out into the world to get some answers about her parents' breakup. In Act 3, a man who has turned his back on the ways of his people. His people, in this case, being divorce lawyers. Act 4, Meryl Markle.
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Chapter 3: What challenges do children face during divorce?
How can I just let you walk away Just let you leave without a trace When I stand here taking every breath with you
We liked how honest and sad it was. How can I just let you walk away, just let you leave without a trace? You're the only one who really knew me at all. We pictured Phil Collins at the piano, writing it, the tears running down his face.
I wish I could just make you turn around Turn around and see me cry There's so much I need to say to you So many reasons why
Anthony broke up with me on New Year's Eve. I told you, corny. I didn't really see it coming, and I definitely didn't want it to happen. He said, you're going to be okay. I just cried and cried. I wanted to stop it, to fix it. I searched deep inside myself for the right words to say, and out of my mouth popped this. How can you just let me walk away? I'm the only one who really knew you at all.
And I meant it. In fact, I go so far as to say that in that moment, no one could have conveyed how I was feeling better than Phil Collins.
Take a good look at me now Cause I'll still be standing here And you coming back to me Is against all odds It's the chance I've got to take
If I thought I'd been in a Phil Collins phase before, it was nothing compared to what came next. I was no longer listening to his songs for pleasure, but for pain. They were breakup songs, and hearing them was the only thing that made me feel better. And by better, I mean worse. There's something so satisfying about listening to sad songs.
They're like how you would actually be spending your day if you were allowed to just break down and sob and grab hold of everyone you met. They make you feel less alone with your crazy thoughts. They don't judge you. In fact, they understand you. A breakup song won't ever suggest you start online dating or that you're better off without him.
They tell you that you're worse without him, which is exactly what you want to hear because it's how you feel. I didn't want to be cheered up. I didn't want to bounce back. I didn't want to meet someone new. I wanted to wallow, big time, deeply, and with the least amount of perspective possible. And the only way to do that was by turning off my phone and turning up the sad, sad music.
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Chapter 4: What happens when the justice system gets involved in breakups?
you do want to know what love is. There's nothing restrained or subtle about being crushed by the person you care most about in the world. It's big and gaudy, and so it only makes sense that songs about it are too. It was after listening to all these songs for months that I knew what I had to do. I had to write one myself. I needed to take charge of my pain.
I needed to take wallowing to the next level. It wasn't enough just to be lying on the floor in my pajamas listening to these songs at 3 in the afternoon. I wanted to be the songs. I wanted to be the pain. I wanted to be inside the stereo speakers, to be the sound waves coming into my own head. I wanted to be the thing creating the feeling I was feeling.
And I knew just what kind of breakup song I would write. A torch song. Torch songs are about the most pathetic, desperate, and lonely part of yourself. The part you'd never admit to your friends. The part of you that knows, without a shadow of a doubt, that you would take him back. Not only that, he wouldn't have to beg or even apologize. Dusty Springfield made a whole career out of these songs.
I Just Can't Make It Alone, I Only Want To Be With You, All I See Is You, Losing You, or this one, which might be the most pitiful sentiment ever uttered out loud.
You don't have to say you love me, just speak closer than that. You don't have to stay forever, I will understand. Believe me, believe me, I can't help but love you. But believe me, I'll never tie you down.
It's just so pathetic. And deep down, it's how I felt too. And it felt good to have someone just come out and say it. There are some words you can never speak, but somehow you can sing. So I knew what kind of song I was going to write, but I had no idea how to go about writing it. I needed some advice.
And out of thousands of musicians who write about heartbreak, there was only one I cared to talk to. Hi.
Hi. Hi, Starlin. Can you hear me okay?
Yeah, I can hear you great. Phil Collins, of course. What? Is that weird? I got it into my head that it'd be great to ask Phil Collins how to write a breakup song. The same way you might think to yourself, I'd really love to talk to Michael Jordan about free throws. I never thought it would actually happen.
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Chapter 5: How do pets perceive divorce?
Oh, really?
And I didn't want it at all. So that's something that, you know, you always remember these things, you know, like, you'll always remember New Year's Eve, and I'll always remember my birthday.
I know. It makes you want to skip those days, doesn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
Up until this conversation, I never thought I had much in common with Phil Collins. He started playing in Genesis at the age of 19. I didn't. He performed in Live Aid while I only watched it on TV. He was in the movie Buster, which I never actually saw. But talking to him was easy. He told me that when he was in Genesis, he just played drums and sang. He didn't write.
Against All Odds is one of the first songs he wrote himself when he was working on his first solo album.
That song particularly was written during my... first divorce. My first wife and the kids had gone and I was just left there. So it was written totally out of experience as opposed to this is a what-if song. You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. Do you think you could have written that song if you hadn't gone through, if your wife hadn't left?
Probably not. I mean, frankly, if that personal stuff had not happened to me at that time, I probably would never have made an album. And if I was to have made an album, eventually it would have been more of a jazz rock thing, because that was what I was actually, that was my output. Apart from Genesis, I was in the back of Brand X. And that's, you know, I was a player.
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Chapter 6: What are the key elements in writing a breakup song?
Did it help?
Well, it helped in as much as, you know, it was kind of, well, when she hears this, it's all going to be okay, you know.
Really? Is that what you thought?
I did, yeah. Foolish, huh? But, I mean, I did.
Um...
there's various people in your life that you never quite get over. I mean, that's kind of the cliche. And then, you know, sometimes, I mean, with me, for example, because of children, you are morally obligated and you need, because of you want to be with the kids as much as possible, you have to be in touch with this person that's really hurt you.
So it's not like, you know, you can just walk away and leave without a trace because, you know, in this instance, there's a couple of little guys that are looking up to you saying, what am I going to do, Dad?
Okay, there are so many crazy things about this. First of all, even Phil Collins can't help but quote Phil Collins. Second, if it hadn't been for his wife leaving him in 1979, Phil Collins would never have become Phil Collins. Heartbreak turned a jazz rock fusion drummer into an international pop icon. But the other crazy thing was how honest and normal he was about it.
Once again, Phil Collins put into words what I was feeling. There's a part of me, and it is not a small part, that wants my ex, Anthony, to hear the song I write and ask to come back. I told Phil that I'd been trying to write my songs, but they just didn't feel right. They were too wordy or something.
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Chapter 7: Why is Phil Collins significant in breakup music?
I met up with Joe and also Julia Greenberg, a musician and songwriter who plays with Joe a lot. I'd written about a dozen songs, some of them more finished than others. When I printed them out, I had six freshly typed pages of lyrics, and then about 15 crazy-looking pages, with a few lines here and there separated by random spaces. I had sent these all off to Joe and Julia before our meeting.
Here's Joe reading the one I thought was farthest along.
Okay. Imaginary boyfriend. I can't help but think this all could have been prevented if I'd just gone to a small liberal arts school because then I would have met my imaginary boyfriend at a stand-up comedy open mic. It was love at first eye roll. He said he drew comic books like David on Roseanne. Wow.
I thought I'd been working on a song, but I don't even know how to describe what that was. A creative writing class essay, maybe. It was clear that I'd ignored Phil Collins' advice. Keep it simple, not clever. Joe and Julia agreed. I think that, like David on Roseanne, I can't turn into a song. Then Julia pulled out her favorite of my songs from the very bottom of the stack.
I'd been so sure it wasn't a contender that I'd almost not included it at all.
You had the lyric, it doesn't do me any good, in fact it does me bad. Then it kind of seems impossible to me that that hasn't been in a pop song before, but that's a classic kind of pop song.
Yeah, that's a classic pop song line. I have to admit I was skeptical. That lyric was from The Crazy Pile. Just note for an idea I had for a Torch song. I tried to think of the most pathetic scenario I could. What I came up with was this. Anthony goes back to his ex-girlfriend.
But rather than letting him go, I agree to be this awkward third wheel, as long as it means still getting to see him occasionally. The lines were literally, I liked you, and you liked her, and I sort of liked her because you liked her. Julia had run with the idea, with one minor change.
Do you know that you had it all like, and I changed it to love? That was the biggest.
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Chapter 8: How can writing a song transform heartbreak?
Oh, yeah.
Well, it's something. I don't think you really want to get over it. I think you're kind of enjoying it. So that's kind of a dilemma you have to sort out.
You really have me pegged. It feels, like, important or big or something. Like, it feels like I felt really... Like, I felt so much for him when I was with him, and the only way to still feel, like, that strongly about something is to not let it go. I would love to be the person who is just like, he meant nothing to me.
But instead, I'm the person who's like, okay, I'm going to write a breakup song and play it over the airwaves. And, you know, like, it's so... I've, like, lost all my cool.
Well, I don't see it like that. You're just...
addressing something you need to address and this is getting amongst other things getting it out of your system you know you've had the satisfaction of actually getting something tangible that you can play yeah um you know out of this relationship that's true but i don't know don't you sometimes wonder like is it better to have the song in the end or the relationship
Oh, no, it's probably better to have the relationship.
Yeah.
Yeah.
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