The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller & Adam Scott
S2E5: Trojan's Horse (with Michael Chernus)
Fri, 14 Feb 2025
This week, Ben and Adam welcome Michael Chernus — who plays Ricken Hale, the visionary author of “The You You Are” — to help unpack Season 2 Episode 5. And while you might expect Ricken to host a podcast of his own, Michael reveals that Ricken is actually post-podcast, so today’s episode is a really big deal. Together, they discuss Ricken’s writing, his relationship with Devon, and the actorly impulse to be liked. Then, Ben and Adam break down the rest of the episode and the challenges of crafting this soft-reset for the MDR team. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: How does Confluence improve workplace productivity?
Hey, Adam. Yeah? Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know. I think it's... it's... Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.
Oh my god, well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.
Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before. Where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for, while discovering important contexts they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster.
In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year.
So that would equal out, like if we're playing with like, let's just say 100%, 5.2 of those percentage points. Yeah. That's the improvement.
I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close. Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great. So why not keep your team unsevered? In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at Atlassian.com slash Confluence. That's A-T-L-A-S-S-I-A-N dot com slash C-O-N-F-L-U-E-N-C-E. Hey, Adam.
Yeah? Apparently a lot of people have been calling the hotline after watching episode four and had some pretty strong opinions about it. What? Yeah. And they left some messages. Oh.
Can we listen to them?
Yeah. If you haven't watched episode four, you probably shouldn't listen to these voicemails. But for those of you who have, let's listen to a couple of them. Get Ben Stiller on the phone. We've got questions.
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Chapter 2: What are listener reactions to Episode 4?
Hi, I just watched the episode of the show that runs called Lowest Hollow. How the fuck could you end episode four like that? Oh, my God. Just watched the episode. Got some questions for you. First of all, what the fuck? Hi, Ben and Adam. This is Sydney H. And I'm just calling to ask, who gave you the audacity? Second of all. What the fuck? I was pretty sure that Helena was actually Helly.
So, yeah, I figured that out.
I knew it. I knew it.
But I can't figure out the next episode. Tell me. I need to know what is happening. How could you? I'm also way more mad than this, but I'm in an Airbnb right now and we're in quiet hours. And thirdly, and probably most importantly, what the fuck? Great stuff. Love the show. I hope Adam's having a good day.
That's great. Well, I love the energy and the, yes, the what the fuckness of everybody's reaction.
Yeah. It's amazing to hear people reacting rather than like reading reactions, you know?
Yeah. And obviously it's a lot of stuff that happens in the episode that's probably... It seems unexpected coming off of episode three in terms of the Helly Helena reveal, which, you know, a lot of people had very strong feelings about and different opinions.
Yeah.
Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.
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Chapter 3: Who is Ricken Hale and why is he important?
We're gonna go deep. It's been so much fun to see how the people who watch the show are paying such close attention to it. I mean, I know we've talked about this before, but it's crazy to me the level of scrutiny that people are looking at scenes with and freezing the frame and looking at details. And I just want to say I appreciate so much how much thought people put into the show.
It's like there's no better feeling when you're working on something to see that people are really, you know... It's so cool. Just digging in.
And that shot that in episode two, the shot of everyone going into the elevator timed with episode one, like that really worked and people found it. And I know how excited you and Sam were about that.
Yeah, it was literally maybe like an hour after the episode came out, somebody had put together a cut. Oh, is that right? Both scenes. Yeah. And we had planned that out. And Sam and I worked together and Jeff, our Richmond, our editor, we made sure that we edited it so that the timing worked. And I'm just so relieved that it actually happened. came out the way that we wanted.
I remember Sam had the Innie version on set while we were shooting the Audi version.
Yeah, we were there and we each were like, you know, coordinating and like the episode's a beautiful looking episode. And I have to also shout out Susie Lavelle, who's our cinematographer on episode two and just beautiful composition, beautiful lighting. And, you know, it's the first all Audi episode. So yeah. It was definitely uncharted territory for us, right?
Yeah. Just that scene in particular, see them at their lockers and stuff. That was really fun. But also, yes, getting to really dive into their Audis is so fun. It's just fascinating getting to know them better. And speaking of people in the outside world, today we have with us our very own Michael Chernus, who plays Rickon.
Michael, first of all, thanks for standing by while we did all that just now on the Zoom as a silent audience. What did you think of our intro and stuff?
Oh, my God. I thought it was really good. You guys sound very professional. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. What a relief.
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Chapter 4: What is Michael Chernus' approach to playing Ricken?
Yeah, I think one of the things that's hard for me with him is, you know, fighting the actor's impulse to want to be liked. And I think that's an impulse that Rickon has too. But, you know, knowing that there are some people out there are going to be like, ugh, Rickon and his friends are so annoying.
And having to remember like, well, maybe that's a good thing that people are kind of put off by him at first. And then eventually the onion starts to get peeled back and you start to like – discover, oh, there's more to him than that. Or he has sensitivity, he has vulnerability.
And so continuing to discover those ways in for the audience to see a different side of him is really what's been a fun challenge.
It's just fascinating. And there's nothing that makes me laugh harder whenever we're working than Rickon, but also it's just so fascinating whenever we get that peek behind his sort of grandiosity, like in the finale of season one, where Ian E. Mark and Ricken have that moment outside where Ricken is kind of like, I know you think I'm a fool.
And you kind of see his humanity, certainly, but you also see shades of these two guys that have known each other for a long time and maybe shift or change they've kind of gone through together. It really is an incredible performance, the fact that you're able to do so many things at once.
Well, right back at you. I mean, I remember that night that we shot it. It was such a dance between us because we're holding so much. You had so much going on of like any Mark meeting his idol, but all the other circumstances of the larger scene in that moment and trying to keep it together. Yeah.
not be found out and so you had all that going on and then I had all the stuff that Rickon's going through going on and so I think I love that scene so much and it's such a simple scene but there's so much packed into it I think that speaks to the tone of this show so precisely of
Trusting the audience to the audience is smart and that they're going to be watching and listening and knowing all that nuance that we don't have to play everything at once. Right. You know, there may be all of this stuff happening, but you as an actor can't do all those things. You just have to be there and sort of listen and play the scene with your partner. Yeah.
But maybe that idea, though, that Rickon wants to be liked as an actor, I want to be liked. You know, you're right. Like that instinct, right? When you play a part, it's like you don't want people to think you're an asshole, even if you're playing a character that sometimes can be like that. And maybe that, in a way, works for you, too.
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Chapter 5: What moral dilemma does Ricken face with his book?
I don't know if anyone had shot a frame. I think it was the camera test. And I came in and yeah, I didn't know really who Rickon was. And we tried a bunch of different like hairdos. And I remember Ben being like, could he look like Leaf Garrett?
Yeah. And the You, You Are, the book, it was actually written by Dan. He wrote a good portion of the book and it's actually available on Apple Books now. And you read it. Yeah, there's an audio book too, right?
There's an audio book read by Rick and Hale.
Now, was Balfe there when you recorded to have the neti pot in case your throat got dry? He had to be. I mean.
Yeah. Yeah. Balfe 13 was there actually rubbing my feet and my feet cramp when I read. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That was really fun and really hard. Really? Yeah. I mean, joking aside, my voice was like a mess after those. I needed a Balfe. It's so funny. Yeah.
I mean, it's really great.
It's so good. Dan is just so smart. And as we know, is just so invested in this world that literally every corner has been thought about. There are passages in what he wrote that just blew me away. And I was reading a lot of it for the first time in the recording studio and just laughing out loud. I mean, it's so good. And there's some passages that are really actually affecting too.
in it well that's the thing because rick and yeah rick and is not a joke rick and is there's some real something there that we can't hold on to i mean we have to there is and we learned some stuff about him in the audio book i won't give anything away but there's some some history and backstory that gets revealed that i think hopefully fleshes him out a little bit more for for viewers yeah and relates to the story that we're telling so check it out the you you are so so fun
Michael, thank you so much for coming and doing the show.
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Chapter 6: What is the relationship dynamic between Ricken and Devin?
Dylan becomes hyper-focused on Irv and needing everyone to acknowledge Irv dying, essentially, and not getting quite what he wants from anybody. And Helly, like, no one's quite giving her what she needs either. She's like, what the fuck? I'm just like, you know, everybody's sort of off in their own world now.
And how does Milchik explain that Helena was down there spying on them?
Yeah.
And so he comes up with this story of the Graksupan.
Have you ever heard the story of the Graksupan?
Let's assume we haven't.
In ancient times, the king of Sweden himself was known to go incognito amongst his people in the hopes of learning their true grievances. he would don an old gray robe, a grokshupan, the name for which he was remembered.
The grokshupan was based on a true story, the true legends of the king or queen who would go undercover amongst the people when they didn't know what the king or queen looked like to understand the needs of their people. And the grokshupan is actually a true story. I will say that we came up with that idea of that story.
And then Tramiel, I think he called me up the night before we shot, and he was asking about the pronunciation of Grakapan. And I did not know that. And so he came in with this Grakshupan, pronunciation. I don't know where he got it from, but I think he did some research on it.
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Chapter 7: How does the episode explore the MDR team's challenges?
There's something about that with that little, it has that little like papal cap on it. He looks like little Pope Irving, right? He does, he does. And I could see John- I mean that totally respectfully.
I could see John being the Pope. He could pull it off.
He should have been in Conclave. I agree. I haven't even seen Conclave, but I feel like he should have been in it.
I saw Conclave. Yeah. Everyone's incredible. Totoro should have been in there somewhere.
But then Dylan gives this very sweet eulogy for Irving.
He asked me for help with something near the end, and I didn't listen. And in his final moments, he would have been totally justified in telling me to suck my own fuck. But he didn't. He was awesome and I miss him.
Thank you, Dylan G. A little sugar with your usual salt.
I remember shooting that and just thinking, Zach is so great. Yeah. I love Ms. Wong and her theremin playing, how she just, the sound design on that one. I know you and Jeff probably found the timing of this. The one little peep of theremin we get before Milchick tells it. It's just a perfectly timed comedic.
Yeah, they've got their own little, you know, kind of work situation happening, the dynamic going on between the two of them. And you get the sense that she's not really being given the chance to spread her wings as much as she might want to.
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