The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
Keto Diet Specialist: What The Keto Diet Is Really Doing To Your Body! Can It Cure 43% Of Mental Illnesses? The Truth About The Keto Diet!
Thu, 16 Jan 2025
Could the secret to better mental health be on your plate? Dr Georgia Ede explains how the right diet can profoundly impact your mental well-being Dr Georgia Ede is a Harvard trained psychiatrist specialising in nutritional and metabolic psychiatry. She is the author of the book, ‘Change Your Diet, Change Your Mind: A powerful plan to improve mood, overcome anxiety and protect memory for a lifetime of optimal mental health’. In this conversation, Dr Georgia and Steven discuss topics such as, how the keto diet impacts mental health, the importance of balanced insulin levels, the link between keto and weight loss, and the secret to staying on the keto diet. 00:00 Intro 02:12 What Do You Do? 02:31 Is Metabolic Psychiatry a New Term? 03:48 Why Is the Ketogenic Diet at the Heart of Your Work? 04:51 What's Your Academic Experience? 05:48 What Does Practicing Psychiatry Involve? 06:18 When Did Nutrition Become Part of Your Career? 07:49 Social Component of Mental Illnesses 09:57 The Eureka Moment 17:00 Adapting Diet to Personal Needs 19:05 Fundamental Principles of a Healthy Diet: Nourish, Protect, Energize 21:56 Diet Personalization: Trial and Error 25:22 What Is the Ketogenic Diet? 27:15 What Does the Ketogenic Diet Do to the Brain? 29:53 Impact of the Ketogenic Diet on Refractory Mental Illnesses 34:17 Calorie Restriction 35:31 Alternative Ways of Lowering Insulin Levels 37:37 Why Is the Ketogenic Diet Difficult to Sustain? 41:26 Keto-Adaptation or Keto-Flu 45:37 Misconceptions About the Foods Included in the Ketogenic Diet 47:05 Is Ketosis a State? 50:57 Getting Into Ketosis 53:44 Connection Between Food and Neurodivergent Disorders 56:06 Why Are Dietary Modifications Not Commonly Prescribed to Alleviate Symptoms of ADHD? 57:56 Are ADHD Medications Helpful in Some Cases? 1:02:52 Research on the Link Between Ketogenic Diet and ADHD 1:04:04 Could ADHD Lead to Diabetes? 1:09:33 Benefits of Ketogenic Diet for People With Food Addiction 1:13:50 Depression, Anxiety, and ADHD - Case Study 1:21:08 Carnivore Diet 1:22:19 Do We Need Fiber? 1:25:50 Is the Carnivore Diet Sustainable Without Supplementation? 1:29:33 Why Does the Ketogenic Diet Help With Losing Weight? 1:35:09 What Part of Your Work Overlays With Psychology? 1:37:12 How Do You Approach Challenges With Adopting the Ketogenic Diet? 1:40:23 Ketogenic Diet's Role in Reducing Anxiety 1:43:23 Question From the Previous Guest 1:45:29 What Would You Say Someone On Their Death Bed? Follow Dr Georgia: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/g08I8wNVqPb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/g2s0hzPVqPb TikTok - https://bit.ly/41XQofT YouTube - https://bit.ly/40lfrbv Website - https://g2ul0.app.link/3g4HsJvcsPb Website Resources - https://bit.ly/4fOrC4Y Keto Diet for Mental Health Training Program - https://g2ul0.app.link/p5eQeZEcsPb Free Clinician Directory - https://g2ul0.app.link/5lhpZ4zcsPb Spotify: You can purchase Dr Georgia’s book, ‘Change Your Diet, Change Your Mind’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/yukl31VVqPb Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACBook You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Shopify - https://shopify.com/bartlett PerfectTed - https://www.perfectted.com with code DIARY40 for 40% off 1% Diary: Join the waitlist to be the first to hear about the next drop of The 1% Diary! https://bit.ly/1-Diary-Megaphone-ad-reads Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Most people will experience tremendous reductions in anxiety within three days to three weeks of starting a ketogenic diet.
In fact, we did a study where patients with bipolar disorder, major depression, or schizophrenia tried the ketogenic diet and 43% achieved clinical remission from their chronic mental illness and 64% of them left on less psychiatric medication because it improves the balance of chemicals in the brain. But the question is, what's causing those chemical imbalances in the first place?
And so let's start there.
Dr. Georgia Ede is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist who specializes in nutritional science and mental health. She was one of the first psychiatrists to offer nutrition-based approaches as an alternative to psychiatric medications to optimize brain function and enhance performance.
People need to know how powerful nutrition strategies can be for the brain because if you're feeding it the wrong way, things will go wrong. And that's exactly what happened to me. My health was declining in my early 40s in ways that was true for a lot of my patients. Chronic fatigue and IBS, being really anxious and depressed. And so I did all kinds of tests and they said there's nothing wrong.
Of course there was something wrong. So I instinctively started experimenting with my diet. And the diet that I ended up on was backwards from what we're told is healthy for us. It should theoretically kill me, but it resolved every single one of my symptoms.
And so I studied for years learning things about food that most people don't know and which foods contain the nutrients the brain needs or the ingredients that damage the brain and found three principles of nutrition. They can help you in ways no medicine can, as well as improve mood, memory, concentration, stamina, productivity. So let's unpack that.
I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button, wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you.
If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to do in this thing we love.
If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Dr. Georgia Ede, how do you define what it is you do?
I'm a psychiatrist specializing in nutritional and metabolic psychiatry. So how food affects the brain and how food affects brain metabolism and how brain metabolism affects our mental health.
This is a fairly new phrase, metabolic psychiatry. Am I right in thinking that?
Yes, it's a very new field and really exciting field. The term itself was coined by Dr. Shabani Sethi, who's a metabolic psychiatrist at Stanford University, maybe five years ago or so, maybe a little longer than that. So it's a very, very new field. It's even newer than the other exciting new field in psychiatry, which is nutritional psychiatry.
And so, and this is a really exciting time to be a psychiatrist. And it's also a really exciting time or a hopeful time and empowering time for people with mental health conditions, because we're finally able to
to explore root causes, the real root causes, the deeper root causes of mental health conditions that go beyond things like what we're told all the time, which are these mysterious chemical imbalances that need to be addressed with medication. We now understand that the real root
drivers, the primary drivers of mental health conditions are inflammation of the brain, something called oxidative stress, which is why we're always told to eat more antioxidants, and insulin resistance or prediabetes, which is now affects more than 90% of Americans.
In your work, you talk a lot about the ketogenic diet. Why is that so prevalent in your work?
The ketogenic diet energizes the brain differently, so it really fundamentally changes the brain's operating system. So when you switch from a high-carbohydrate, high-insulin diet to a low-insulin, which is usually a low-carbohydrate diet, ketogenic diet,
The way that cells receive energy, their mixture of fuels that they're using changes, and that has profound influences on just about every pathway, just about every chemical pathway inside of that cell. So it is as though you are fundamentally changing the brain's operating system in very healthy ways that allow brain cells not only to work better, but for brain cells to heal.
So the longer you stay on a ketogenic diet, the more healing, the more brain healing can take place.
And what is your sort of academic and career experience? What's that? Can you run me through that sort of timeline?
Yeah, so I got a degree, an undergraduate degree at Carleton College in Minnesota in biology. So I always have loved science and biology, understanding how things work. And then for years I worked as a laboratory research assistant, different types of research labs around the world, Boston, Munich. including in diabetes research, until I figured out what I wanted to do.
And I decided that I wanted to go to medical school. So then four years of medical school at the University of Vermont in Burlington, Vermont, which is a great place to go to medical school. And then four years of psychiatry residency training at a Harvard program called Cambridge Hospital in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
And then, so it was 25 years ago that I finished my psychiatry residency training and I've been practicing psychiatry ever since.
And what does practicing psychiatry involve?
What it usually involves for most psychiatrists is psychotherapy and medications. And for some psychiatrists, only medications. Some psychiatrists prefer to focus exclusively on psychopharmacology or medication management. There are some psychiatrists who choose to focus only on psychotherapy and don't prescribe medications.
But the vast majority of psychiatrists offer a combination of both medications and psychotherapy.
And when did nutrition become part of your career?
Well, I never thought about the relationship between food and the brain once. During medical school, we had maybe two or three hours worth of nutrition lectures in four years. And in four years of psychiatry residency, we didn't talk about food and the brain once. So I honestly had no idea how important it was to brain health.
So I practiced conventionally, as I was saying, medications and psychotherapy for the first 10 years of my practice. And as much as I love my work, it was becoming painfully obvious that most people in my practice were just not getting that much better, no matter how hard I tried. And it wasn't just true for me. It wasn't as though I was thinking, well,
You know, maybe I don't have enough experience or maybe I'm not reading enough or maybe I need more supervision. When am I going to be able to really be able to help people? Because when I looked around, even very senior psychiatrists who had been in practice for decades, the same was true for them. I mean, we had been taught to think of mental illnesses as chronic, mysterious, and incurable.
And that the best way you can help people is to support them with medications and psychotherapy. But that these are lifelong illnesses that we really don't understand very well and that we can do very little about.
Presumably there's like a significant social component to mental illnesses as well, right?
Absolutely. I mean, the brain is a very responsive organ and it's listening to, it's not just paying attention to the food you eat. It's paying attention to every aspect of your life, how much light the brain receives, how much love you have in your life, how much you love your work, what kinds of people are around you. how you use your body, exercise, stress, everything.
Everything matters to the brain. But most people are led to believe that food doesn't matter that much to the brain. And that's partly because we've only recently started to think about it. But the other piece is that the information that we're given about how to feed the brain and the body properly is incorrect.
And so when people are trying their best to improve their mental health using nutritional strategies, those strategies fail most people because those strategies are grounded in the wrong information. And so a lot of people just think, oh, well, you know, I tried eating more whole foods, right? I tried putting blueberries on my oatmeal or making my flaxseed smoothie every morning or
eating more plants than animals. I tried all of those things and they just didn't help very much. So I'm just going to go back to eating everything in moderation because it doesn't seem to matter. But what's really great about you inviting me here to talk with you today is that people need to know how powerful an intervention these nutrition strategies can be.
They can help you in ways no medicine can in days to weeks in many cases. People can experience meaningful improvement to their mood, their memory, their concentration, their stamina, their productivity, and their mental stability, their effectiveness in their lives if they have the right information about how to change their diet.
So you have to know which changes are the ones that are worth making, and they're not the ones we're used to hearing about.
Is there a particular case study that comes to mind when you think about this? Is there a most prominent case study or a first case study that was a eureka moment for you?
I wouldn't say there was a eureka moment case in my life because I came to it in a different way. My eureka moment really came through my own personal experience. I think a lot of physicians who practice nutritional and metabolic strategies are Most of us stumble into this work accidentally because we're not taught it.
And most of us stumble into it either because a patient comes to us and says, hey, you know, I've tried this new way of eating and that's why I'm so much healthier than when you saw me a year ago.
Or the physician themselves encounters their own health challenges, uses the conventional nutrition approaches, they don't help, and they find that they're kind of left to their own devices to solve their own health problems. And that's exactly what happened to me. So when I was experiencing all kinds of
health issues in my early 40s, despite doing everything correctly, eating low-fat, low-cholesterol, calorie-restricted diet that was high in fiber. mostly whole foods and exercising religiously, despite doing all of those things, my health was declining in my early 40s in ways that was true for a lot of my patients as well. And I had no idea how to help my patients with these issues.
These were things like chronic fatigue and IBS and fibromyalgia and migraine headaches, very common in middle-aged people and older and even younger people nowadays. So When I encountered those issues, and I was working at Harvard at the time, I had access to all kinds of specialists, caring, intelligent, thorough. They did all kinds of tests, all kinds of tests.
And they said, everything is normal. There's nothing wrong. Of course there was something wrong. So I instinctively started experimenting with my diet.
And long story short, six months later, trial and error changes, Food and Symptom Journal, at the end of six months, and this was back in 2007, the diet that I ended up on purely by trial and error was almost upside down and backwards from what we're told is healthy for us. And that was the diet that resolved every single one of my physical health symptoms.
But as a psychiatrist, what really got my attention was that it improved my mental health significantly. And I wasn't even trying. I wasn't even aware that my mental health needed that much attention. I think like most people, I was walking around with suboptimal mental health.
You know, more anxiety than was necessary, than was, you know, slumping in the middle of the day, brain energy, you know, faltering a couple of hours after lunch. Coming home at the end of the day and being completely spent and not being able to get anything else done after 5 o'clock. Being really anxious on a Sunday night before Monday morning work. You know, being depressed in the wintertime.
I mean, all of these things we think of as really normal. We've come to expect so little of our mental health. We've come to expect poor mental health as normal. And it isn't. If you feed the brain properly, it works better. And you can expect so much more of yourself. So when that happened to me, I thought, Well, that's interesting. This diet seems to be good for the brain.
Which diet was that?
This was a mostly meat, low carbohydrate, low fiber, low cholesterol, high fat diet. No whole grains, no legumes. very few plant foods, mostly seafood, meat, poultry, non-starchy vegetables, and fats from whole foods. It really was as simple as that. And a diet similar to that is one of the starting places in the books.
I have a variety of different dietary strategies people can explore in the book, not just one. So there's different places for people to grab on, depending on what they feel comfortable doing. But that way of eating resolved all of my physical issues and mental health issues I wasn't even aware needed attention. That really was what inspired me to begin studying nutrition.
I certainly did not go out and start recommending this dietary pattern to my patients. That would have been reckless. I didn't know the first thing about nutrition. And based on the little that I did know, the diet that I had ended up on should theoretically kill me. So... It could be dangerous for people.
And so I studied for years independently, took a graduate course at the Harvard School of Public Health, and studied independently, read everything I could get my hands on, studied the primary literature, the actual scientific studies, to try to understand, OK, why? Why is red meat bad for us? What's the difference between red meat and white meat? Why are whole grains good for us?
Why are whole grains good for us but refined grains are bad for us? Why do we need a rainbow of fruits and vegetables? Are some of them more important than others? Are they all equally beneficial? I mean, I just became so curious about food. I really wanted to get to the bottom of it. So for years, I studied nutrition and fell in love with nutrition science.
And it's a lot of what I share in the book is all these fascinating things about food that most people don't know. And that can really, such as that it's interesting, it's useful.
It's empowering because if you understand which foods contain the nutrients the brain needs, which foods contain the ingredients that damage the brain, which foods are going to damage brain metabolism and cause inflammation and cause oxidative stress, cause all these things that we're told we need to fight with supplements and superfoods. That's the real power.
The real power in dietary change is not adding special things to the diet. It's actually subtracting the things that are harming the brain and working against your best efforts. It's just like anything, you know. You don't make money by spending money. You make money by not spending money, right? So it's the power of subtraction. What are you not doing?
And that's really step one is first do no harm. Understand where the harm is coming from in the diet because it's not where you think it's coming from. It's not coming from the red meat. It's not coming from the cholesterol. It's not coming from the saturated fat. So if you understand where the damage is coming from, then you can turn things around very quickly.
You used a word there, you used the word explore, as it relates to different diets that you've written about in your book and that are available online. From what I understood there, you're not saying that one diet is the right diet for everybody. You're saying that it's almost, the word explore suggests sort of experimentation, personal experimentation.
And what worked for you in that case might not necessarily work for someone else in a different situation. Is that accurate? Yeah.
That's exactly right. And you're bringing up a really important point, Stephen, which is that there are two levels of dietary changes. knowledge. So one is that there are fundamental nutrition principles that apply to all human beings. These are the rules.
The cells require these nutrients, and you must consume foods that provide those nutrients to those cells, and you must exclude these certain ingredients that can damage those cells, and you must keep your glucose and insulin levels in the right range for your personal metabolism. You have to nourish, protect, and energize your cells. You must do that.
But then beyond that, so those rules and the rules that you have to follow to get there are not commonly known. But then beyond that, there's the personalization. Because we are all different. We're not different in what our cells need, but we're different in what we can tolerate. We're different in our metabolic health.
We're different in how old we are, how active we are, what conditions we already have, what conditions we're most at risk for, what our goals are, what our preferences are. whether we have food sensitivities, for example. And so all of those pieces, you know, food intolerances and different goals and different aspects of our lives, that's where the personalization comes in.
And I teach people in the book how to take these fundamental principles. So I teach them what the fundamental principles are, which are very simple. Nutrition is not rocket science. and then show them how to personalize it to their metabolism, to their preferences, to their goals.
What are the fundamental principles? Let's start there.
So the fundamental principles are nourish, protect, energize. So nourish, what does a brain healthy diet look like? And by brain healthy, we are talking about what's healthy for all cells because it wouldn't make any sense to... for the human body to require a different diet for every organ you possess. So a brain healthy diet is a diet that's healthy for every organ in the body.
So it's good for the brain, it's good for the heart, it's good for the liver, etc. So what is a brain healthy diet? It needs to nourish, protect, and energize. Nourish. It must contain and be able to safely deliver all essential nutrients to your cells. So you have to know where those nutrients are.
You cannot, using whole food principles and not including supplements or specially fortified processed foods, you cannot meet that goal without including some animal foods in your diet. That's just the truth of our biology. Protect. Protect the brain from damaging ingredients. So what damages the brain? Inflammation, which you can't see or feel. It's not so the brain is red or swollen or sore.
The brain doesn't have nerve endings. But many, many people have brain inflammation without being aware of it. That's a main driver of depression and all kinds of other brain conditions. So you need to exclude. Protection is not about addition. It's about subtraction.
You need to subtract the foods from your diet that cause inflammation, that cause something called oxidative stress, which is why we're always told to eat more antioxidants. What we really need to be told is what's causing all that oxidative stress in the first place and remove those things because the antioxidant strategy really doesn't work. And energize. Nourish, protect, energize.
The third principle is energize, which means the brain, which is a very high energy electrical organ, it needs a constant supply of high quality, clean burning energy. And if you're eating the wrong way, your brain will gradually lose its ability over time to generate energy. That's primarily about getting your glucose and insulin levels into a healthy range.
Not just your glucose, although getting your glucose levels in a healthy range is extremely important. You have to go one step further because underneath that glucose, you need to know what's happening with insulin. And that's a really empowering strategy. It's sort of next level, right?
So getting your glucose and insulin levels down will allow your brain to energize itself in the most clean, efficient, and reliable way possible.
Nourish, protect, and energize. And then beyond there, you said there's a level above that. So that's the sort of fundamental level. Beyond there, you go into sort of personalization. What's best for you? And is that where this sort of trial and error comes into play?
Exactly. So these principles, nourish, protect, energize, the nourish you need to include some animal foods, the protect you need to exclude things like refined carbohydrates and vegetable oils, which are the signature ingredients of the standard American diet or standard Western diet.
And the energized is the glucose and insulin levels, which for some people, this is a level of personalization begins here at the energized piece. Because if you have excellent metabolic health, and we can talk about what that means, you then you may not need to eat a ketogenic diet to properly, to really get those glucose and insulin levels under control and thoroughly energize your brain cells.
But if you have significant metabolic damage, if you're sedentary, if you're older, if you have prediabetes or type 2 diabetes, then you may need to reduce the amount of carbohydrate in your diet, even from whole foods. You may even need to go to a ketogenic level.
And that's where assessing your metabolic health, understanding where you stand on the insulin-resistant spectrum, the spectrum of metabolic health, that's the empowering piece. Because if you know...
where you stand on the insulin resistance spectrum, and you can get your glucose and insulin levels into a healthy range, then you have tremendous power over your emotional, intellectual, and your physical health future. It's really the number one risk factor for almost all chronic diseases, mental and physical. So personalization starts with a metabolic personalization.
So how much carbohydrate can you safely tolerate? That's one example. But then there's another level of personalization that has to do with how well does your immune system work? How robust is your gut function, your gut barrier? Many of us have lost our ability to safely and comfortably tolerate a wide variety of foods that we should be able to tolerate.
And that's because our environment, multiple Multiple toxins in the environment have broken down a lot of our defenses, our gut barrier, our blood-brain barrier, and our immune system has become overwhelmed by trying to process lots of toxic ingredients in our environment. So these are things like...
plastics and pesticides and antibiotics and food additives and all kinds of ultra-processed foods that we were never designed to handle. These are really stressful. on the human body, and they do break down our defenses over time. So this level of personalization is very much about trial and error.
But to save people some of that frustration of trial and error approaches, I give them very specific lists of foods that are more likely to be culprits than others. And so that helps cut back on some of the trial and error elimination.
This keto diet, you did a study on the ketogenic diet. Got the study here. The ketogenic diet for refractory mental illness, a retrospective analysis of 31 inpatients. What is the ketogenic diet for someone that might not know?
So a lot of people think or they've heard about a ketogenic diet as a weight loss diet. They think of it maybe it's a fad weight loss diet. They think of it as a very, very low carbohydrate diet. They might think of it as a diet that's very high in meat and dairy products. But actually, the ketogenic diet was originally created in 1921, more than 100 years ago, to stabilize brain chemistry.
in children with severe seizures. And this was long before the availability of useful seizure medications. So these were children who were having multiple seizures per day in many cases. And so the ketogenic diet was designed back then, created back then, a very strict version of the ketogenic diet to get as close as possible to fasting without starving children to death.
Because for millennia, people had noticed that those with epilepsy would often improve if they were fasting. but you can't fast forever. So how do you get close to fasting? This is the original fasting mimicking diet. How do you get as close to fasting as you can while still providing some nutrition? So that was the original goal of the ketogenic diet. It was very successful for seizures.
More than 50% of children had more than a 50% and adults as well. It's since been shown more than 50% response rate in children and adults and 10 to 20% completely free of seizures following a ketogenic diet.
How's it acting on the brain? What's it doing to the brain?
The ketogenic diet does many, many things. It's like a multipurpose tool for brain health. So one thing it does, because we talked about how some of the root causes of mental illnesses, which are only relatively recently a focus of research, are anxiety. inflammation and oxidative stress and insulin resistance.
The ketogenic diet reduces inflammation, it reduces oxidative stress, and it reduces insulin resistance. It also improves the balance of chemicals in the brain. So a lot of people think of mental illnesses as problems with chemical imbalances in the brain. And these are the chemicals that they're talking about. You might have heard of serotonin or dopamine or norepinephrine.
There are others, glutamate, GABA. Many different chemicals in the brain are associated with or in some cases even very much causing mental health symptoms. But the question is, what's causing those chemical imbalances in the first place? And one of the things that's causing those chemical imbalances is that inflammation and oxidative stress.
But another thing is that the brain is, if you're feeding it the wrong way, it will not be able to, in many cases, produce energy reliably. And if it can't produce energy reliably, all kinds of things will go wrong. And in quite spectacular fashion, What actually goes wrong is going to depend on who you are. And that's where our individual differences come in.
So if you and I eat exactly the same bad diet... Depending on what runs in your family and how you've lived your life to this point, you might develop Alzheimer's disease. You might develop bipolar disorder. You might develop type 2 diabetes. You might develop fatty liver disease. I might develop completely different conditions. I might develop cardiovascular disease. I might develop depression.
I might develop ADHD. And that's where the individual differences are. But all of these conditions are just metabolic malfunction. Really, at the heart of it, that's what's going on. If cells aren't functioning properly, you will develop a disease, physical and mental diseases. And which ones you get, it's really kind of luck of the draw.
But you have tremendous control over what you are at risk for if you understand how to help your cells operate at their personal best.
Can you tell me about what you learned in this study and what this study concluded?
Yes. So this was the work of my friend and colleague, Dr. Albert Dana. He's a psychiatrist who's been practicing in Toulouse, France for more than 35 years. So after witnessing a young family member, someone in his extended family, with autism and seizures improve within weeks of adopting a ketogenic diet, he thought, well, I wonder if this diet could help my patients, especially my patients...
who are not responding to anything else that I have tried to help them. Psychotherapy, medications, hospitalization. And so he invited 31 of his most treatment-resistant patients with bipolar disorder, major depression, or schizophrenia to come into the hospital and voluntarily try
a very mildly ketogenic whole foods diet in the hospital under his supervision to see whether or not they would respond. And this was, these were folks who, these are all adults. These were people who had been ill for an average of 10 years, some for as long as 30 years.
These were people who were taking when they came into the hospital at the beginning of the study, an average of five psychiatric medications. not at all unusual for people with chronic mental illness, and all of them had one or more markers of poor metabolic health, obesity, high blood pressure, high blood sugar, things like that.
So these were people with poor metabolic health and poor mental health. And they eagerly came into the hospital to try this intervention because nothing else had helped them. And what was remarkable about what he observed was that of the 31 people, 28 were able to stay on the ketogenic diet for more than two weeks, which is what you need to do to start to see benefit.
Every single one of them improved. to the point that 43% of them achieved clinical remission from their primary psychiatric treatment-resistant chronic mental illness. And 64% of them left the hospital on less psychiatric medication. And all of them improved metabolically as well. And you do not see results like this in conventional psychiatric care.
So there's a few things that spring to mind when you talk about this study. The first is that they were inside a hospital.
Yes.
So I guess that's a confounding factor potentially.
Oh, yeah. Well, a blessing and a curse.
Yeah.
So a blessing is that the diet was very carefully supervised. Six days out of seven, they were allowed to go home on Sundays. Okay. Which still, I'm just mentioning, but they had a tremendous amount of support and supervision. And that's really, really helpful when you're switching from a standard high-carbohydrate diet to a low-carbohydrate diet.
They also had very careful medical and psychiatric supervision, which is also really important because when you change to a ketogenic diet, brain chemistry fundamentally changes in ways that can at first, when you're transitioning from one operating mode to another operating mode, it's stressful and sometimes you can feel worse before you feel better.
Mm-hmm.
And medications can be affected. So medications need to be monitored. And everything changes. These are all really healthy changes. Your blood sugar can drop. Your blood pressure can drop, especially if you're taking blood sugar-lowering medications or blood pressure-lowering medications. If you switch to a ketogenic diet, it's so effective at lowering blood sugar
Many physicians who prescribe blood sugar-lowering medications for diabetes need to cut the diabetes medication in half on day one in order to prevent dangerously low blood sugar. Because you've got a medication that's lowering blood sugar, now you've added a diet that lowers blood sugar, and this could be potentially dangerous. The diet on its own is not dangerous.
It's the diet in combination with medications. So you need to know what you're doing. And so, yes...
In the case of these 31 adults, so a certain proportion of them, was it 28 that managed to see it through?
28 of 31.
28 saw it through. Had I just restricted their calories, for example, but kept them on whatever diet they were on, would I have seen an improvement as well?
That study has not been done to the best of my knowledge. However, you're bringing up a really interesting point. So what a ketogenic diet is, it's really not about carbohydrate. The definition of a ketogenic diet is any diet that lowers insulin levels to the fat burning point. So that if you're insulin, you can't burn fat if your insulin levels are too high.
And most people are walking around with insulin levels that are high 24 hours a day. They don't even come down overnight because people are just eating too much too frequently and the wrong foods. To get into ketosis or generate ketones, you need to lower your insulin levels to the fat-burning point.
And if you're burning fat vigorously, the liver will turn some of that fat, chop that fat into ketones, which are very small fragments of ready-to-burn fat. And these cross easily into the brain and can be burned for energy, and they can bridge any energy gaps that may be there, which many of us have.
If these people had done the Mediterranean diet, would they have seen the same consequences? I imagine they were probably on the Western diet, like the American diet, which is ultra-processed, high sugar. So bringing them into a controlled environment and just depriving them of that would have surely caused just that on its own would have been beneficial.
Yes. So I wrote in the paper, and I mentioned this, you're making a really excellent point, and I addressed this in the paper, is that because when you change from a standard, junky, modern diet to a ketogenic diet that's whole foods, you're changing a lot of variables, right? So how do we know that it had anything to do with the ketones, right?
And this is a good question and a fair question, and we don't know the answer, but new studies are helping us to understand that. But before we get to that, I just wanted to say the point you're making is so important because there are lots of ways to lower your insulin levels. So you can lower your insulin levels through fasting, intermittent fasting.
You can lower your insulin levels through exercise. You can lower your insulin levels through calorie restriction. If you restrict your calories below 750 grams per day, many people will go into ketosis. That's another version of a fasting-mimicking diet made popular by Dr. Walter Longo. So there are many ways to lower your insulin levels. The ketogenic diet is just one way to do that.
But the ketogenic diet is the only way to safely, sustainably maintain a state of ketosis long-term. So you can initiate, you can get into ketosis using these other strategies, but you can't fast forever. You can't exercise all day long. You can't restrict calories below 750 for the rest of your life.
But you can safely and comfortably eat a well-formulated ketogenic diet, which is very low in carbohydrate, moderate in protein, not excessive in protein, and relatively higher in fat, depending on your energy needs. indefinitely.
Sustainably. Use the word sustainably there. That's kind of always been my challenge with the keto diet is being able to stay on it. I mean, you saw in this particular study that even trying to get people to do it for two weeks resulted in some portion of them dropping out. Yes. Why is it so hard to stay on the ketogenic diet?
I've managed to do it for, I was saying to you before we started recording, once a year, around this time of year, I do it for about eight weeks. And it has a really profound impact on a A lot of my life, it helps me feel more focused. My body composition radically changes faster than any other diet or thing that I've ever tried, faster than just exercise alone.
I sleep a little bit better as well, I noticed. But you've been doing it for a long time. You've been doing it for roughly, what, almost 10 years?
For the better part of 12, I mean, more often I'll say I've been following a ketogenic diet for 12 years. And I agree with you, it's not always easy. I'm not perfect about it myself, but I have been on the ketogenic diet the lion's share of the last 12 years.
It being hard is an important factor.
Yes.
Because when you're trying to prescribe it to somebody who has got, you know, treatment resistant depression or is really suffering in some way, I imagine they'll find it even harder than I do.
Yes and no.
Okay.
So it's – well, it's definitely – there's no question about it that it's hard to eat a low-carbohydrate diet in a high-carbohydrate world.
Yeah.
So there's that. There's the environmental temptations and the social temptations and the habits and the addictions. Sugar addiction is a very real biochemical phenomenon. So there's that. But I mean, I've been, I had a weight issue growing up. Everyone in my family did. And I've been on lots of different diets in my life. This is the easiest one to stay on.
I can't say about any other diet that I've followed for 12 years. And the reason why is this diet really stabilizes appetite hormones. So your cells are getting energized in between meals. You're not getting those spikes and crashes in glucose, which cause spikes and crashes in appetite hormones, satiety hormones, stress hormones, reproductive hormones, brain chemistry.
You're not on that roller coaster anymore. So your cells are being satisfied. They're getting the energy needs satisfied in between meals. And everything is quiet and calm on the inside. It doesn't mean you're 100% protected against temptation. So I describe it to my patients with food addiction. I describe being in ketosis as a suit of armor.
The sword can still get you, but you're not 100% protected, but you've got a real fighting chance. And for anybody who's never tried a ketogenic diet and been on it for at least, I would say, 6 to 12 weeks... Most people have no idea how much easier it is to follow a healthy eating plan when their appetite is in good control.
A lot of people know they've shifted into ketosis without even checking their ketone meter because they can go for so long without eating, without even thinking about food. They can work through lunch and not even realize that they've missed a meal. Most people, the way we eat, most of us now are thinking about food all the time.
You haven't even finished breakfast and you're already thinking, what can I have for lunch? You're carrying food around with you everywhere you go. You're eating at least six times a day in many cases. This is not, I mean, we would never have survived as a species if we needed to eat six times a day. So we're not eating in a way that is nourishing us and satisfying us.
We're eating in a way that's making us hungry.
I find what you've said there to be sort of true in my experience, especially in the context of the rollercoaster analogy. So when I'm not on ketosis, I do feel like sometimes I'm in a bit of a rollercoaster of like temptation, craving, etc. And then when I do ketosis and I get past the first week or two, the rollercoaster seems to stop. Right. I'm off the roller coaster.
It's then maybe six, eight weeks later, you're busy, life happens, you're traveling, you're tired. That temptation creeps in and it just takes that one moment of weakness in my head to then fling me off ketosis and all my effort is gone.
And in my head, the way I've always thought about it, and I'm sure this is wrong, but I've thought about it like it takes a couple of days to get into a state of ketosis. And then once you're in, and I usually get a headache on my way into ketosis. I feel a little bit bad on the way in. And then once I'm in there, it's fine.
So when I have something that breaks my keto, this is what I refer to, me and my girlfriend talk about it, I've broken my keto or whatever. I think, oh my God, I've got to go through another headache and another five days of... you know, getting back into it. Is that correct?
It's a very common experience because there are these adjustments that happen inside with your physiology as you're shifting from one operating system to another. When you're shifting from a carbohydrate-burning system, you're shifting your ratio of your fuels to the body and the brain are hybrid engines, so we're never burning 100% fat. We're burning a mixture of fat and carbohydrate.
When you're shifting from a
from a system that's fueled almost entirely by carbohydrate almost all the time to a system where you're burning more fat than carbohydrate, that's uncomfortable for some people, shifting back and forth, especially if the reason why you've, quote, broken your keto is because you've had something that has a lot of refined carbohydrate in it, a lot of sugar or flour in it, for example.
So it depends on... what you've eaten and how much and for how long. But many people do experience the so-called keto flu when they are shifting from a carbohydrate-based system to a fat-based metabolism. And some of this can be, much of this can be prevented in a couple of different ways.
One is with electrolyte supplementation, supplementing electrolytes to keep your salt balance even as you're transitioning. And another is by transitioning slowly onto the ketogenic diet rather than all at once. And there are other tips in the book about how to do this more comfortably, but those are the two big ones. And going slowly.
So in the book, I don't recommend that people start on a ketogenic diet just straight away, like learn about it on a Monday, start it on a Tuesday. But ease into ketosis over a week or two. And there's a kind of a moderate carbohydrate plan in the book that allows people to do this. So you follow that plan for a couple of weeks to gradually lower those glucose and insulin levels.
It's going to be a lot more comfortable. It's going to be a lot less of a shock to the brain and body. And if you're supplementing electrolytes and going slowly, most of these, quote, keto flu symptoms will not occur or they'll be very brief and mild. So again, it's a positive change to have these electrolyte changes and
All of these things are good, but there is this transition period which can sometimes be uncomfortable. And this is not to say that it's dangerous. Again, it's a very – we're designed – Our biology is designed for us to be able to shift back and forth between fat and carbohydrate as fuel sources.
But many of us have lost some of our metabolic flexibility because we've done some damage to our metabolic engines by eating the wrong way for too long. So we don't shift as comfortably back and forth as we used to be able to.
I guess most people don't even know what foods are included in a keto diet because most diets are restrictive to the point that people think they just make your life miserable. But what are the sort of big misconceptions you've seen with the foods you're able to eat on a ketogenic diet?
Yeah, so because the definition of a ketogenic diet is any way of eating that lowers insulin levels enough to turn on fat burning and generate ketones in the blood, because it's about insulin, it's really not a food list. So it's not about plants and animals. It's not even about fat or carbohydrate.
It's about understanding how to lower your insulin levels, which you can do with a vegan dietary pattern, with a vegetarian dietary pattern, with an omnivore dietary pattern. or even with a carnivore dietary pattern. So whatever your dietary preferences are, you can get the benefits, the brain healing benefits of ketosis. So it's not about the foods you're eating.
It's more about understanding what raises and lowers insulin. The things that raise and lower insulin are refined carbohydrates, Whole foods, carbohydrates, refined proteins like protein powders, whole food sources of protein. And guess what barely touches insulin at all? Fat. Fat is metabolically the quietest and safest macronutrient you can eat because it barely stimulates insulin.
Is ketosis a state? Is it like a binary state, like now I'm in ketosis and now I'm not?
So yes, but there's, yes, let me put it this way, that most experts will agree that in order to be, quote, in ketosis, your level of beta-hydroxybutyrate on a blood ketone meter, a blood is prick your finger and put a drop of blood on this little test strip, and it will read the amount of a particular ketone in the blood called beta-hydroxybutyrate, and it will give you a reading.
If that reading is 0.5 millimole or higher, you are in ketosis, in ketosis. So what does that mean? Why is the cutoff 0.5? Because three things have to happen for you to get to at least 0.5. One is your glucose levels have to come down. The second thing is your insulin levels have to come down. The third thing is you have to burn off a certain amount of the stored starch in your liver.
We have a storage tank for carbohydrate in our liver. It's not very big. It holds less than a day's worth of carbohydrate because really, as animals, we're designed to store energy as fat. Carbohydrate's there for quick energy emergencies, short term. The fat, for better or for worse, we have almost an unlimited capability to store fat. We can store months and months and months worth of fat.
But we can only store a very small amount of carbohydrate. So if your storage tank in the liver is full, your body will not switch to fat burning because it says, oh, we've got plenty of starch to burn. Let's start there. Once it comes down to a certain point, the body goes, oh, we're running out of energy. Let's go to fat now.
And that's when the liver will start breaking fat down, whether it's fat on your body or fat from your plate. and start chopping it up into these ketones. So those three things have to happen. And once that happens, you'll see the ketone levels rise on the meter.
So most people who are not eating a ketogenic diet are walking around with ketone levels either undetectable or they're 0.2 or they're 0.3. They might float up into above 0.5 every once in a while if they're not eating for a long time. or if they've just exercised. But for the most part, most people eating a typical diet are not in ketosis.
And when you get above 0.5, a lot of metabolic magic starts to happen because there are lots of pathways in the body and brain that are not very active unless you're in ketosis. And those are the healing pathways, the recycling and maintenance and cleanup pathways, the recovery pathways. All of us.
This is something that I came to appreciate a number of years ago as I've been studying this is that there are many people, unfortunately or fortunately, there are many people who discover with mental health issues that they need to be in ketosis long term in order to be well. But I've become convinced by the science that all of us need to be in ketosis at least intermittently.
All of us need to spend some time in ketosis on a regular basis or else we can't heal. will only be, it's like a manufacturing plant where the plant is just running 24-7, 12 months a year, and they never take time to replace the parts or clean up the floor or, you know, they never do any maintenance work or repair work. And so eventually everything breaks down.
And when you say ketosis, again, you're not saying the keto diet. You're saying the low levels of glucose and insulin in the blood. And that can be achieved by calorie restriction, potentially fasting, I guess you could achieve it, and other diets like the Mediterranean diet if administered in the right sort of doses, right? Yeah.
Well, we should come back to the Mediterranean diet in a minute. But the first part of your question is important because ketosis is, as you said, you can get into ketosis a variety of different ways. If you're eating properly, and this would have been our evolutionary heritage, our ancestors, especially our prehistoric ancestors, they didn't have access to these foods.
lots and lots of refined carbohydrates a long time ago, they were eating carbohydrates from whole foods, fruits and starchy root vegetables, right? And so even grains and beans are very, very relatively much newer sources of carbohydrate. So let's think about fruits and vegetables. But they would have been, we can only guess, looking at their diets.
We don't have proof of this, but think about it.
If you're eating in a way where your insulin levels are allowed to come down overnight, if you're eating a balanced diet, so to speak, but it's got everything it needs in it, and it's not giving you exaggerated spikes in your glucose and exaggerated spikes in your insulin, and you're not eating six times a day or all day long, your insulin levels will naturally come down overnight.
And that will allow you to go into a healing mode. So I believe that if people have the right information about what a healthy diet is supposed to look like, they may not even need to in many cases, especially if you're younger or athletic or don't have a lot of metabolic damage already. you may not need to lower your carbohydrate intake during the day.
You might just need to be careful about what kinds of carbohydrate you eat and how often. So, for example, it's known that in children who are eating a regular diet, many of them wake up the next morning in ketosis. They're metabolically much healthier than we are as we get older. So they're much more metabolically flexible. And so now they didn't go on a ketogenic diet.
They're eating a regular diet. They slept overnight, didn't eat anything. The next morning they were in ketosis. That's not true for all children, but it's true for enough children that we know it's possible. Most adults, it takes them several days at least to get into ketosis, even if they're not eating anything at all.
So fasting can take two to three days at a minimum for most people to get into ketosis, but some people it can take a whole week.
And you talked about children there. One of the big conversations at the moment around children is the rise in ADHD diagnosis. And there's a lot of different sort of thoughts on the causal factors of this and what is it that's making children be diagnosed at higher and higher rates with these sort of neurodivergent disorders.
Is there any evidence to suggest that what we're eating is playing a role in these neurodivergent disorders?
Yes. The first thing I would like to tell you about is that there were studies, quite a few studies back in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s in Europe by a variety of different research teams that explored exactly the question you're asking. And what they did was they placed children with ADHD, some quite severe ADHD, even hospital-level ADHD, and put them on something called a few-foods diet.
The scientists called it an oligoantigenic diet, which just means it's kind of a low-allergen diet. So they removed all of the common culprits, and they focused mostly on just a few whole foods and a few extras. So very specifically describing this diet, most of these diets were...
Chicken, lamb, fruits, vegetables, and sometimes they'd throw in some apple juice and margarine because they couldn't use butter because dairy is a common allergen. But these were mostly whole foods diets, you know, poultry, red meat, fruits, vegetables. There was a 62% to 82% response rate to these diets, no matter which study you looked at.
And in some of these studies, there was a 70% cure rate within weeks of changing the diet to a few foods diet. So what does this tell us? It doesn't tell us which foods were the problem. It tells us that food can be the problem, that if you make the right dietary changes,
It's possible for children, even with very severe ADHD, to improve within weeks to the point that they no longer qualify for having ADHD anymore.
Because there's a change in the symptoms.
Oh, yes. The children's behavior as rated by parents and teachers and the researchers themselves.
So I just did some research to find some stats on this.
Sure.
Diet modification isn't widely prescribed as a way to alleviate ADHD symptoms, is it? As of 2019, major health organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics and the National Institute of Health and Care Excellence, do not recommend dietary modifications as standard treatment for ADHD due to insufficient evidence.
A 2014 review found that elimination diets might offer minor benefits in a subset of children, particularly those with food sensitivities or allergies. However, these benefits are not substantial enough to advocate for widespread dietary changes in ADHD management.
So what I would say to that is there are multiple studies all pointing in the same direction that I think give parents and families and children tremendous hope with really no risk.
Mm-hmm.
What are we doing instead? We're medicating children. We're giving children stimulants, which can stump their growth, make them anxious, and cost money. One of the reasons I do this work is because I really don't think that for most people the right thing to do is to medicate our way out of this situation.
I mean, just about every mental and physical health issue we have, we think about, we've just kind of been conditioned to think about medications as the solution. But medications don't solve problems. They cover them up.
And what we really want to do is want to get to the root of these problems and not just treat them, which nutrition interventions can do in many cases, but perhaps even prevent them from happening in the first place.
Can they all be treated by, because I was, I guess, technically diagnosed with ADHD, but I don't take any medication for it. It's a personal choice. I personally just don't think that the net impact it has on my life is worth taking any medication. I also have friends with ADHD who have significantly worse symptoms. When I say worse, I mean more pronounced symptoms than I do.
So my personal decision was just not to take the medication. However, I sat here with a guy called Dr. Amen, who has a daughter who had ADHD. She got the medication and it turned her life around. Like she went on to become super successful, but was like struggling in school. So it's really difficult, isn't it? Because it's such a personalized sort of personal decision. And...
Some people have it more extreme and in a way that makes their life more dysfunctional than others. You know, some of my friends do really say, they say, I took this medication for my ADHD or my attention issues, whatever. And it's been revolutionary for me. They just like, they just offload on me how profound it's been for them. So I guess it goes back to being a personal.
It does. But you know, So I have a lot of experience treating ADHD because I worked for two years at an ADHD specialty clinic called the Hallowell Center outside of Boston. I also worked for 13 years in college mental health at Harvard and at Smith College and saw lots and lots and lots of students with ADHD.
Most of who actually had it, some of who didn't, some who were just looking for stimulants. But I can tell you as a psychiatrist who's prescribed medications for 25 years, the stimulants are some of the most effective medicines we have in our toolbox. For the people it works for, it works very, very well. And it can be life-changing. A lot of people think of ADHD as, oh, a minor issue.
Oh, you can't concentrate, or maybe you daydream, or maybe you're fidgety, or maybe you get distracted. ADHD can be a really serious condition. Just like all mental health conditions, it exists on a spectrum of mild to very severe. And so people with ADHD are at much higher risk for suicidal ideation. They're at much higher risk for substance abuse. They're at much higher risk for accidents.
They're at much higher risk for depression, for anxiety. And twice the rate of divorce in people with adults with ADHD. These are serious, can be for some people, really disabling conditions. People cannot function in their lives. They can't function in their relationships. They can't hold a job. You know, they feel so frustrated and powerless.
I mean, I was telling you that I worked with students in these elite universities, right? These are very intelligent people who were struggling 10 times harder than their peers in classes. They had to work so much harder. They had to stay up four or five hours later than everybody else. And they did because they were hardworking. But they're really suffering. And this discrepancy between...
How smart I am and how much I think I should be able to do and how much I'm actually able to do makes me feel bad about myself, right? They feel bad about themselves because they know they're capable of more, but they can't get there. And it's a real biological condition. Now, the great thing about – this is a perfect example.
We could have this conversation about any mental health condition, but ADHD is a great example because – There's always a risk-benefit analysis when you're thinking about how we're going to treat this condition. So do you want to take medication? What are the pros and cons of that? Does the medication work for you? Does it give you side effects? Can you access the medication?
Can you afford the medication? How hard is lifestyle change for you? One of the most powerful interventions for ADHD, and I think you're probably just maybe one of the most stellar examples I can think of is this. Change your lifestyle to suit your strengths. Play to your strengths and don't try to swim upstream against your weaknesses.
People with ADHD often have tremendous talents in certain areas and are tremendously gifted in certain ways because they can make connections, because they don't always think in a straight line, because they often have very diverse interests and they can pull different kinds of information together. And given the right path, they can be hugely successful, right?
But that's not possible for everybody. And for more severe cases of ADHD, it's not possible at all.
Has there been any studies on the link between the ketogenic diet and ADHD?
So not yet, but I'm very excited to be involved in two brand new studies of the ketogenic diet for ADHD. So one is a ketogenic diet for adults with ADHD and depression that's getting started at Oxford University in 2025. And the other is a study of ketogenic diets for ADHD in adults at the University of Michigan. It's also going to be starting in 2025.
We have no data on ketogenic diets in ADHD, but we have good reason to believe. The reason we were able to get funding for these studies is because there's reason to believe that it could be useful. Because when you look at ADHD, you see clues to poor metabolic health. So, for example, children with obesity are twice as likely to have ADHD. Obesity is a marker for insulin resistance.
Adults with type 2 diabetes are twice as likely to have ADHD. Type 2 diabetes is severe end-stage insulin resistance. And the ketogenic diet is the most effective way to address insulin resistance that we have at our disposal.
Is it hard to establish cause and effect there? I was thinking about the diabetes one where if you've had ADHD, maybe your life has been harder. Again, I don't know what I'm talking about here, but maybe your life has been harder. And if your life has been harder, you're more likely to be obese, potentially, if you've had more stress and you've had a worse, more challenging job.
And will a test be able to exclude these sort of confounding factors to the point that we'll know for sure?
I think that would be a very difficult study to design. But I think what I can tell you from my clinical work, because I'm a general psychiatrist, so I see adults of all ages and with all psychiatric conditions from major to minor. And I've worked, as I said, with people with ADHD, hundreds and hundreds of patients with ADHD. What I can tell you is that it's the same with medication.
If someone comes in and says to me, I can't tell if this medication is working, so should I keep taking it? And I'll say, well, you know, if you can't feel it working, then it's not working. So when the diet works, it works regardless of what's going on around the person. And this is true for all conditions that I've worked with.
So people with bipolar disorder, people with depression, people with ADHD, people with PTSD, people with anxiety. As you have said, we talked about the ketogenic diet is not easy to stick to, right? People fall off the ketogenic diet all the time, sometimes accidentally, sometimes intentionally, right?
And you can see their symptoms come back within often 24 hours, even though their external factors have not changed. Your life hasn't changed. It's the diet. And when you follow the actual ketone levels daily, you can make that correlation. So what's really exciting about both of these studies is it's not just getting somebody into ketosis.
It's tracking on a day-to-day basis their ketone level and their attention symptoms and seeing if we can see them go up and down together. And we've always got a little bit of data already. from a pilot study by Ali Houston at Oxford University, we're starting to see some signals there. But it's too early, really. We need to actually launch the official study. So in my patients...
It's a phenomenon I've seen over and over and over again. A great example is I have a patient that I worked with for a couple of years who had a condition called bipolar disorder type 2. So it's a It's a form of bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder people used to call manic depression. You've got periods of mania, often followed by periods of deep depression.
Bipolar type 2 is a milder form where you don't get quite as manic, but you still can get very depressed. So he had bipolar II. And whenever, so he came to me because he wanted to try a ketogenic diet for bipolar disorder because he had heard it might help.
So the other issue he was dealing with was that he and his wife were having some difficulties, some difficulty in their relationship that had started up a few years before. And, you know, every time they got into an argument, he would want to die. And he would start to think about ways of killing himself.
Every single time he went on the ketogenic diet, the suicidal ideation went away, even though his wife had not. So he used to associate the depression with the marriage, but he learned over time to associate it with his metabolic state. that when he was in ketosis, he could then imagine other ways of coping with the stress in his marriage other than just killing himself.
So a lot of people say to me that the ketogenic diet gives them this space. It allows them to pull back. and see things from a different perspective, it buys them time. Perspective is like a buffer so that people aren't reacting as reflexively to difficult situations. Situation hasn't changed, but people are able to deal with the situation in a more effective way.
They feel they have more control, not just over their emotions, but also over their behaviors and how they react to situations.
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Or find the link in the description below. And for people that have food addictions and binge eating problems the ketogenic diet i guess it's knocking you off that roller coaster well being in a state of ketosis is knocking you off that roller coaster of craving eating craving eating craving eating is that accurate is that what it's doing
Yes. So the ketogenic diet, by lowering and stabilizing glucose and insulin levels, the thing about insulin is that a lot of people think about insulin as a blood sugar regulator. They think of it as, oh, you know, when your glucose goes up, the insulin brings it down. And that's true. But that's It's just one of many important roles that insulin has. It's the one it's most famous for.
But the thing that is not well known is that insulin is so much more than a blood sugar regulator. It's actually a master metabolic hormone. And it's regulating the activity of every cell in the body. Every cell has an insulin receptor on its surface, multiple insulin receptors, to pay attention to the insulin level in the blood. And so...
When you're on a glucose and insulin roller coaster, that's just where the trouble begins. Insulin is talking to and controlling the behavior and levels and activity of many other hormones in the blood, including stress hormones like adrenaline and cortisol, reproductive hormones like estrogen and testosterone.
Your blood pressure regulating hormones, your satiety hormones, the hormones that make you feel full after you eat, your hunger hormones, so many other hormones are on this roller coaster that you're unstable from within. And people often will think, well, I'm stressed and that's why I'm eating. I feel really anxious. I get irritable. I get stressed. I'm hungry.
I need to eat, and then I feel better. And that's true. They will. They will feel better for a few hours. But what happens four to five hours later, if they've eaten something that's spiked their glucose and insulin again, is they're going to get – there's this great study with healthy teenage boys. They took healthy teenage boys, and they gave them either a sugar-free cola –
caffeine-free or a caffeine-free cola sweetened with sugar. And the boys who had the sugar-sweetened cola, their adrenaline levels, their stress hormone levels of adrenaline quadrupled four to five hours after drinking the soda. And the boys who drank the other soda stayed flat. It's the food that's causing the stress that's causing the food eating. So there's this vicious cycle.
If people understood that most of what's happening there, it's not your fault that you want to overeat those foods. They are designed to be overeaten by chemical engineers. This is very intelligent engineering that's going on, very clever. And you will sell more of a product if you make it irresistible and if you make it unsatisfying.
How many people feel that they can't control their consumption of certain foods? That's by design. If you want to keep eating it, you'll buy more of it. If you eat real food... you have to stop after a little while. They're so satisfying. Things like meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, fruit, vegetables, even fruits. Some people will overeat fruit, but fruit has fiber. It has water.
It's really hard to eat 10 pieces of fruit. Very easy to drink several bottles of fruit juice. Very easy to eat
multiple packages of candy because those what happens with ultra processed carbohydrates these refined carbohydrates they blow past your hormonal stop signs and that's not your fault but if you understand that that's what's happening then you can takes a few days you've got to step away from them but but on the other side is tremendous freedom and control
The gentleman you mentioned in that case study a second ago, you referred to as Carl, which I guess is a cloaked name. He's the one that had the bipolar disorder?
No, Carl is a different case.
Okay. Tell me about Carl.
Yeah, so I opened the book with the story of Carl, who has generously allowed me to share his story. A gentleman, great guy in his mid-60s, who had had lifelong depression and anxiety problems. And for years, he didn't seek any treatment.
And then maybe about 15 years or so before he consulted with me, he went to a psychiatry specialty clinic for some specialized brain imaging and extensive evaluation and lots and lots of specialized tests. And he left the clinic with thousands of dollars later with three diagnoses, depression, anxiety, and ADHD, and three prescriptions, one for depression, one for anxiety, one for ADHD.
So he started those medications. And his depression got a lot better, but he then had a brand new problem on his hands, which was he was becoming manic. And he had never had mania before. So he was being uncharacteristically energetic and irritable and unpleasant. And...
So it was changing his character, his personality, his behavior in a certain way that was becoming very unpleasant at work and at home. So he then turned to marijuana to try to take the edge off, developed a marijuana addiction. Now he's got another problem. And so he thought to himself, you know, this isn't what I signed up for.
I was trying to solve a problem, and now I've got two new problems on my hands. So he took himself off the medications and said, you know, I can't use medication. Medication's not for me. I'm going to try to manage my mood issues, my depression, anxiety with rigorous exercise. I'm going to let exercise be my medicine. And he started cycling bikes over 100 miles a week.
And it actually helped a lot. It didn't completely resolve all of his symptoms, but it brought them down to a very manageable level for years. So exercise was his medicine. Exercise improves metabolic health. And so he was still eating a standard American diet. He'd never tried any dietary changes before.
And then what happened is as he entered his 60s, the depression and anxiety started to rise in the background. The exercise wasn't working quite as well as it had. And then just before he met with me, something stressful had happened at work. And it was essentially a shift in his job description, which was making him anxious.
And he started experiencing very suddenly these bouts of agitation and anxiety and restlessness. And exercise being his medicine, he would cycle on the weekends. And at night, if it was happening on a weeknight, a work night, he would be walking because he couldn't bike at night when it was dark. He would walk sometimes eight, even 25 miles to try to get rid of this excess energy.
And he said, I don't have time for this. I can't exercise enough to keep my symptoms under control. He didn't know what else to do. He starts searching online for solutions, came across information about carnivore diets and mental health, contacted me for a consult and said, I want to try the carnivore diet for my anxiety.
And, I mean, there were lots of other things we could have done to improve the quality of his diet. But this is what he wanted to do because he was hoping that would bring him the fastest relief. So switched to a carnivore diet, three to four pounds of fatty meat per day, mostly pork and beef. This was dairy-free, no plants.
And he checked his ketones using urine testing, which is less expensive than blood testing. He's in mild ketosis every day using urine strips. And he started to improve by week three. By week six, his score was zero on all his depression and anxiety scales. He had no symptoms whatsoever.
At all of depression, anxiety, not just of those recent extreme symptoms that he was experiencing, but the symptoms that went back his entire life that had never completely resolved before. So he said, you know, I've never felt this well in my entire life. And so this is the power of these strategies is they don't just reduce symptoms a little bit.
They actually have the power to heal the underlying problem in ways that, I mean, this is a phrase I've heard so many times. I feel better than I've ever felt in my entire life. You don't hear that when you prescribe medications for people generally.
That was in 2019, was it?
I couldn't tell you what year, but that sounds right.
How is he doing now?
Yeah, I mean, we still talk with each other several times a year. He's doing very well. In fact, one of the interesting things about what happened with this diet is that during that long period of intermittent agitation, he's a very physically fit guy because of all the exercise, and he was lean. He lost 10 pounds during that period of agitation that he could not afford to lose.
When he first started working with me, he was underweight. And despite eating four pounds of fatty meat per day, he couldn't regain that 10 pounds unless we added back some carbohydrate into the diet. This is really a subtle point.
But for athletes, sometimes, especially in the early phase of the transition, there needs to be a certain amount of carbohydrate in the diet to support high performance.
He didn't stay on the carnival diet.
No, he did not. So he was on the carnivore diet for many months. And then because he couldn't regain that weight, I asked him, I said, well, you know, I think we need to put some carbohydrate in to help you regain this weight. And so I asked him which foods he missed the most, gave him a list of whole foods to choose from. And the things he missed most were potatoes and yogurt.
So some starchy root vegetables, some plain unsweetened yogurt, up to about 100 grams of carbohydrate per day seemed to be about right for the days when he was, excuse me, exercising. On the days when he wasn't exercising, he would cut it back. So he was tailoring it to his personal energy needs.
And so this is another interesting thing about what happened for him is that, I mean, his scales are still at zero, but he has been, as we've talked to each other on and off over the years, he has been able to make adjustments to his diet, understanding the principles. If you understand the principles, then you know which changes you can get away with and which changes you can't.
And he has stayed well.
There's a couple of key things people always talk about when they hear the carnivore diet. The first is they say there's nutritional deficiencies to the diet that aren't sustainable. So if you eliminate certain food groups like fibers, vitamin Cs, vitamin E, magnesiums, etc., which are essential nutrients, then you're going to have problems.
So a carnivore diet theoretically does provide all essential nutrients. So if you look at what is inside animal foods, you will find all essential nutrients. You can't say that of any plant food. There's not a plant food on earth that provides all essential nutrients. Animal foods can. I would say meat, seafood, poultry. Eggs are missing a couple of nutrients and dairy is missing even more.
But meat, seafood, and poultry contain every nutrient we need. The question is, how much do you need?
Like fiber?
Oh, well, fiber is not a nutrient.
Oh, okay. But do you get fiber in a carnivore diet?
There are different definitions of carnivore, but the strictest sort of purest definition of carnivore is animal foods only. And fiber comes from plants, so it's fiber-free. A true carnivore diet is fiber-free.
So could you last on a true carnivore diet without getting some kind of like gut microbiome issue or some kind of – because you need fiber, right?
Why?
I thought it was good for like digestion and your gut microbiome and stuff like that.
What does it do?
A lot of people tell me that it prevents glucose going into the blood or something.
Where's the glucose coming from?
So you don't need it?
Fiber is very helpful. And I spell this out in the book because we have a lot of half-truths in our minds about food. Even people who are paying really close attention to nutrition science have a lot of half-truths in their minds about food. So yes, fiber, for example, you're exactly right, lowers glucose spikes. But the glucose is coming from a diet that's too high in sugar.
And so you won't get glucose spikes if you regulate your glucose levels. So that's one interesting thing about fiber. So if you're eating a high-carbohydrate diet, Fiber can soften your glucose spikes, and that's a plus. But there's a more effective way to lower your glucose spikes is to not get a glucose spike in the first place.
And that may not require taking all the carbohydrate out of your diet. It might just mean lowering it to your personal tolerance. Another thing people often say about fiber is that it sweeps your colon clean of toxins that might otherwise build up and cause problems. But fiber, there's no evidence that fiber is sweeping anything clean or there's never been a study that demonstrates this.
It's really just a belief. about what we imagine fibers being like the broom of the intestines. But that's just a belief. There's no science behind that whatsoever. The intestines clean themselves. The lining sheds regularly, actually very frequently, and the border of the intestines sweep themselves clean. So the intestine knows how to take care of itself that way.
But the biggest myth about fiber is that it's good for digestion. Because fiber, by definition, is indigestible by humans. So there are two kinds of fiber. There's soluble and insoluble. And the soluble is, you know, the kind that holds water. It's like in an apple. And the insoluble is the kind of tough, stringy, woody stuff that you might find in, like, broccoli, for example. So...
The soluble fiber, the bacteria in the lower parts of our intestine can ferment that to a certain extent, but then we can't make use of the sugars that it's releasing.
I read here fiber is traditionally considered essential for feeding beneficial gut bacteria and promoting regular bowel movements.
Yes. Okay, so a couple of things to unpack there. So one is that a lot of people, there are quite a few papers on this, claiming that we need fiber because we need to feed our cells butyrate, which is a breakdown product of fiber. But butyrate, if you think about what a ketone is, it's beta-hydroxybutyrate, feeds the intestinal cells just as well.
So you don't need to eat fiber to feed your cells butyrate. If you think that the cells need butyrate, then you can get it from a ketogenic diet. So I explain that in the book too, is that there's more than one way to generate that molecule.
Can someone exist on the carnivore diet, like the extreme version of the carnivore diet, for a long time without any supplementation?
So we really don't know, and we really don't have any long-term data on any dietary pattern. I think this is really important for people to understand is this very common criticism of diets that we feel uncomfortable with or might be worried about, like ketogenic diets or carnivore diets, because they're so different from what we're told we're supposed to eat.
There's a lot of fear and worry about them. And so we'll have to think, well, OK, It's normalized my blood sugar level. I used to have type 2 diabetes. I've lost 50 pounds. My depression went away. I normalized my coronary artery calcium score, so I'm at lower risk for cardiovascular disease. My triglycerides came down. I feel better in every way. All of my health markers have improved.
And so when you show people study after study after study of a ketogenic diet improving multiple aspects of metabolic health and physical health and mental health, it's cured my seizures, it's cured my bipolar, whatever it was. The only... The only last thing somebody could say is, well, yes, okay, it's made you extraordinarily healthy now, but I wonder what's going to happen 20 years from now.
Nobody can tell you that because there's no way you could design a 20-year-long study of any diet. So you could say this about the Mediterranean diet. You could say this about a carnivore diet. You could say this about a vegan diet. Well, vegan diet, unsupplemented, is fatal. It has dangerous nutritional holes. So why aren't we saying this about vegan diets?
When we can look at a vegan diet and see... that it's incompatible with human life unless you eat fortified processed foods or supplement, which most people in the world cannot do. We look at a carnivore diet, and you can actually find all of the nutrients in these animal foods, and that's the diet that you're more worried about because theoretically, long term, something bad might happen.
Now, I am not at all saying that a carnivore diet is the right diet for everybody or that it's even the right approach for everybody to consider. But I think we have to keep an open mind and stay curious and look at the biology of food and allow people to make their own.
I'm nutritionally pro-choice, which means if you came to me with a mental health issue, I would support you in optimizing the diet of your choice and making it as brain healthy as I possibly could because it's very important that you feel comfortable with the diet that you're eating. And so there are lots of ways to do that. But I think it's really important.
And one thing I encourage people to do in my work and in my book is to open our minds and get curious about food, the biology of food, the biology of the brain. Because most of what we hear about nutrition doesn't come from biology. It doesn't come from clinical experiments or information about how cells work or about what's actually inside food.
It comes from this type of study called a nutrition epidemiology study, which is just questionnaire-based guesswork. Untested theories about what we should eat. Most of what we believe about nutrition is untested theories, wild guesses, and wishful thinking.
Many of the people that choose a keto diet do it for very sort of superficial reasons. Sure. I think it's probably one of the reasons why I do it once a year for a couple of weeks. Why does it help you to lose weight? Is that, again, just because of calorie restriction?
So it's insulin. So everybody out there who's trying to lose weight, they need to know one thing, and it works. You cannot burn fat if your insulin levels are too high. So if you know what raises insulin... You can turn that insulin knob down. If you know how to do that, you will lose weight. It's a biological fact. So when you turn down insulin, you will burn fat.
So a ketogenic diet, you can't produce ketones unless your insulin is low enough. So the ketones on that meter are showing you that you are burning fat. You can't make ketones unless you're burning fat. So you really cannot burn fat unless you're in ketosis. You don't necessarily have to be in ketosis all the time. You don't necessarily have to have very high ketone levels.
But if you're not in ketosis, you're not burning fat. So if you're not in ketosis, the brain can't even see that you've got energy, spare energy to burn. You might have 200, 300 pounds of stored energy as fat. the brain will still ask you to eat more carbohydrate because it's not in fat-burning mode. So it's in carbohydrate-burning mode. When it's hungry, it's going to look for more carbohydrate.
You have to teach it. You have to bring your body into fat-burning mode and train your body. Give yourself some time, a few weeks, to learn how to burn fat again and stay there. My mother is 91 years old. she has lost 50 pounds on a ketogenic diet. It is never too late to, all she has to do is make sure there are ketones on her meter.
When her glucose meter was nice and stable, she wasn't losing weight because the insulin was still too high. The ketones tell you, the ketones are essentially a mirror image of your insulin level. So we don't have a home insulin level test yet. We have
fabulous continuous glucose monitors, which I recommend anybody out there with a mental health issue or physical health, anybody out there who can afford $45 or $50 for a single two-week glucose sensor, which are now available in the United States over-the-counter, which they weren't before. I think you've had them in the UK for a lot longer.
You can see what your glucose levels are doing in response to your lifestyle, your food choices, your exercise, etc., It can't tell you what's going on with your insulin level. So you can have a nice, beautiful, stable glucose level, nice in the healthy range. Your insulin can still be too high and you're burning all that glucose for energy. A ketone meter will tell you if you're burning fat.
I'm on Amazon now. It says sort of $50 or there's ones for $40 as well.
Yeah.
One for $30 as well.
Yeah.
Interesting. Okay. I think I'm going to try one. I've never actually done one before. So I guess I didn't really know if I was in ketosis or not, but I just...
Oh, it's so useful because if you're following a ketogenic diet, the thing that makes it ketogenic is the ketones. Yeah. And so you were telling me before we started recording that you're always looking up which foods are keto, which foods aren't keto. And it's really not so much about that.
Mm-hmm.
You could eat almost anything on a ketogenic diet if you understand, you know, how much to have and when. But in any case, the ketone meter will tell you if you're in ketosis. And if you're not in ketosis, you can tweak your plan. So all of this is in the book. But you can – really the most important thing about a ketogenic diet is getting into
good, consistent daily ketosis for at least six weeks straight. That sends the daily signal to your cells. We're burning fat now. We're burning fat now. We need to learn how to burn fat. There are enzyme systems and pathways in cells that need to ramp up. And it takes time. So it takes a while for the body and brain to kind of learn how to burn fat again. And it doesn't happen overnight.
In terms of energy, there are so many reasons why I'm a big matcha fan, if you don't already know by now. And so much so that I actually invested in the UK's leading matcha company called Perfect Ted. And one of my favorite Perfect Ted products is these delicious matcha pouches that come in every flavor from salted caramel to peach flavor to mint flavor to berry flavor.
One of my favorites is this vanilla flavor, which I'm going to make... in just two seconds. You just take this mixer here, get a little bit of the powder, pop it on top of the shaker like that. Put the lid on. Shake, shake, shake. Delicious. If you haven't tried this yet, you can find Perfect Ted at Tesco and Holland Barrett stores or online where you can get 40% off with my code DIARY40.
What?
part of your work sort of overlays with psychology you know when someone comes to you and they've they're experiencing some anxiety or depression or something and they're describing their life and their life is full of trauma and hard things and they got fired from their job it seems a little bit peculiar to talk to them about diet in that moment it seems peculiar
Do you ever think first about some kind of psychological prescription?
Oh, you know, I got some – my training at Cambridge Hospital in psychiatry residency is very psychotherapy focused. I got really excellent training in psychotherapy, and I still use it every day in my work. We're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. In fact, the psychology of people's relationship with food is really important to address because
I mean, most of what I do, I mean, I could teach you in an hour everything you needed to know about why you should switch to a ketogenic diet for mental health. And I could give you a little sheet and you could go off and do it, right? I would be rapidly obsolete, which would be a good problem to have, right?
But what actually is happening, most of the work I'm doing is not about, here's the science, here's why you need to do it, here's what's happening in your brain, here's the food list. It would be so easy if that's what it were. We are human beings, and we have really complicated relationships with food. We have history with food.
We have spiritual attachments to food, cultural attachments to food, political beliefs about food. And a lot of us have addictions and attachments to food that go back a long way. So most of it is about helping people understand and sort of hold their hand through that process of making that behavior change. And whatever's going on in their life is also important.
So how do you approach that with your patients?
So in the first interview with somebody, I usually take 90 minutes to two hours when I'm first working with a patient. And I might do that two or three times before we actually begin discussing what to do with diet. Because I really want to understand all of the different pieces of the puzzle, not just, oh, what are you eating? Here's what you should eat.
Mm-hmm.
That doesn't work for most people because there are going to be challenges that come up. And the better I know that person, the better I can help them through those challenges. So it's definitely not like I hand them a prescription for a diet and send them out the door.
I love understanding where people are coming from, the challenges they're facing in their lives, and how that all intersects with their metabolic health. Why are they not exercising? How is their sleep? How are their relationships? Who in their life is supportive of them changing their diet? Who in their life is skeptical and worried? Because that could be a major factor for people.
If one person in the family... wants or needs to go on a ketogenic diet for mental health and nobody else in the family thinks it's a good idea, that's really tough for people. You've got to plan for all of that and talk it through. Say, okay, here are the roadblocks we might face. How are we going to deal with these when they come up?
So I could give many, many examples, but the psychotherapy, the psychology of it is why using ketogenic diets to treat mental health conditions is usually best done as a team.
Ideally, if you can, a keto dietitian or nutrition therapist who's very skilled at using ketogenic diets, designing them and personalizing for whatever you like to eat so that you'll have an enjoyable, diverse diet that meets your needs and your desires so you won't get bored and you'll enjoy the food you're eating.
And a prescriber, especially if you're taking medication or have any mental or physical health issues, you'll need a prescribing professional, primary care doctor or a psychiatrist or both, depending on what's going on for you, to manage the medications and help you through that transition period where there are so many different things changing in your physiology that it can sometimes be uncomfortable if you don't plan properly and set the person up for success.
And a coach. a therapist, a psychologist, or a coach for motivation and support and be a cheerleader, but also to reflect back to you how things are going and keep you moving forward because the first few weeks are the hardest. And once you get past about week three, week three is a real turning point for a lot of people. your cells just kind of settle in to a new way of operating.
And it's this very noticeable shift that takes place in people's bodies and brains and that many people have never experienced before.
As it relates to anxiety, what does the research say about the role that keto can play in reducing someone's anxiety?
Yeah, so anxiety, if you talk to any practitioner who has been using ketogenic diets in their work, whether it's a psychiatric practitioner or a medical practitioner, there are a couple of things they'll tell you that are the most predictable benefits of a ketogenic diet. One is reduced anxiety, and the other is mental clarity.
So most people will experience tremendous reductions in anxiety often within three days to three weeks of starting a ketogenic diet. And the mental clarity is one of those things that you hear from almost everybody. So the anxiety is, remember we were talking about this roller coaster, those stress hormones are on a roller coaster. Life can cause stress and stress can unbalance your chemistry.
There's no question about that. But your food can also do that. Your diet can also unbalance your stress hormones. And this comes back to your question about life stressors. You don't want to ignore those because they still count, and they're still affecting your metabolic health.
Stress raises your cortisol levels, and cortisol levels are dangerous for long-term brain health, high cortisol levels. Most mental health conditions come along with dysregulated or poor regulation of cortisol levels in the brain. And too much cortisol can, over time, damage the brain, including the hippocampus, which is the brain's learning and memory center.
So stress, whether it's coming from inside the body from the foods you're eating or outside the body from your life, both of those need to be addressed, not just the dietary stress.
There's some studies that I just found. A 2023 systemic review examined the efficacy of low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets in treating mood and anxiety disorders. The review highlighted potential benefits but emphasized the necessity for randomized controlled trials to establish definitive conclusions. That was the Cambridge University Press.
And slightly separate to that, on serious mental illnesses, I think you talk about this in your work as well,
A 2024 pilot study conducted by Stanford Medicine investigated the effects of a ketogenic diet on participants with schizophrenia and bipolar, and participants reported improvements in energy, sleep, mood, and quality of life, suggesting that ketogenic diet may stabilize brain functions and serious mental illnesses as well. Really, really fascinating. Really fascinating.
I never really thought about the ketogenic diet's impact on my mental health. I used to think, I'll be honest, the reason I do it is it helps me become more focused. It changes my body composition. And really at the end of the year for me, or at the start of the year, it's a nice way to kind of reset. That's kind of how I see it. I want to come into the year feeling good and strong and focused.
So I do it over sort of Christmas, New Year, January time, every year with my partner. But I never really considered the downstream consequences, things like mental health and those other things. But it makes sense. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for.
And the question that's been left for you is, what would you say to someone who wanted to have less regret and more contentment and peace on their deathbed?
I'm trying to think about what, for myself personally, what I would have regretted. You know, you might want me to say that I would have regretted not having written this book, and that's true. But honestly, it's about finding a really good, healthy relationship in your life. I mean, if I hadn't accomplished that in my life, I would have more regrets than not writing this book.
Thank you. Thank you for writing this book because it's such a comprehensive analysis of this. poorly understood link between the things we put in our mouth and the impact it has on our mind holistically. I don't think enough people, especially if we think back decades, even thought to really uncover this sort of link.
I never, I think before even starting this podcast, never really understood the concept of metabolic psychiatry and that there was an association between the two. The great thing about your book is that you don't need to be a scientist to understand it.
It's clearly written for people like me who don't have a profound knowledge of science and medicine and psychiatry, but are able to learn and advance the decisions we make just by reading your book. It has been such a smash hit for so many people. I was looking at some of the reviews earlier on and people really, really love it. You wrote it, you published it this year, January?
January.
And I highly recommend anyone that is intrigued by any of the subject matters that we spoke about today to go and get a copy. I'll link it below. And it has some extraordinary people on the back who, some of which I've interviewed, at least one of which I've interviewed in Jason. Is there anything else you wanted to say about who this book is for?
Yeah, I mean, I really want people with mental health conditions, even if they think they've tried everything, if you're willing to try one more thing, hope is on the menu.
A powerful plan to improve mood, overcome anxiety, and protect memory for a lifetime of optimal mental health. Thank you so much for the work that you do.
Thank you very much, Stephen, for your work.
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