The Bill Simmons Podcast
Tatum Suffers a Devastating Injury, and Dallas Wins a Wild NBA Lottery With J. Kyle Mann and Joe House
Tue, 13 May 2025
The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by J. Kyle Mann and Joe House to react to the Celtics losing Game 4 against the Knicks after Jayson Tatum went down with an injury (1:44). Then, they discuss the NBA draft lottery and the Mavericks landing pick no. 1 (13:45). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: J. Kyle Mann and Joe House Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is brought to you by Degree Deodorant. Grab the original Cool Rush at Walmart or Target today. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What happened to Jayson Tatum during Game 4 against the Knicks?
I mean, I've had a lot of sports injuries, but I'm not going to pretend to know these kind of things. But the fact that we were arguing about ankle or not, I mean, the fact that he was neutral and there was the plant and then the reverse angle where you see the pressure and then you just kind of see his ankle just kind of wobble like the stability gave out, which made me worry.
But you and I were saying that the pain part of it was the interesting reaction because to me, I've never torn that God, you know, God willing, I don't go, go there. But, uh, he, his reaction to it was what made me think because every basketball player fears that, right? I mean, it's, it's increasingly getting more, you know, doable and navigable, but with surgery and everything.
But I think his reaction was he knew that's kind of my speculation. It was, he, he knew what it was and it was just that like, holy shit, why me kind of a thing, less than a writhing in pain type thing.
Yeah. House. Usually with the Achilles, the guy almost doesn't seem like they knew it happened and they grab like for something behind their thing. So I was, I was studying it like, well, he's grabbing the side of his ankle. Maybe it's not, but it doesn't look great. And the irony of it was that was one of the best games of his career up to that point.
I mean, he's single-handedly kept the Celtics in that game for three plus quarters and was outrageously good.
That's the bummer. We were being treated finally in this game four to the mano-a-mano that we basketball fans deserve. We were waiting for a Brunson game, and then Tatum was there to match him blow for blow, shot for shot, and that fourth quarter was getting very exciting down that stretch there, and that's it. It's over.
The season's over for the Celtics, and who knows what happens over the summer and next season.
It looked like the Knicks were about to pull away when that play happened. And the irony, normal pass to Jalen Brown, who just didn't have it the whole night. He was fouls, turnovers. And for some reason, the pass just to flex off him goes back to Tatum. Tatum jumps for it. has the injury, but the Knicks, you know, it was really just Tatum and white tonight for the Celtics.
Um, even before that injury, nobody else really showed up. The Porzingis minutes were horrible. The two older guys, Horford and Andrew holiday brought nothing to the table. Pritchard didn't really give them the boost off the bench. And then conversely, Brunson was awesome. Um, Bridges made some big, big, big little eight, 10 footers. OG made a couple of threes.
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Chapter 2: How did Jayson Tatum's injury impact the Celtics' chances?
They were good. But the key, and I'm not here to rub it in anybody's face, if Porzingis isn't effective, then the Celtics, it makes it super duper hard for them to compete. They just don't have enough dudes. The Hauser injury turns out to be really impactful. And if Porzingis is this version of Porzingis, then it's tough because the Knicks do have... Six dudes. They have six.
That's exactly the number. They don't have more. Maybe even just call it five and a half. But they are dudes. They're all dudes. And look, here's the crazy thing to me. I'm looking at the numbers here. How did the Knicks get up 13 more shots? They had 13 more attempts from the field. I know. That's right. They beat them by 12 on the boards. That's the answer.
It's crazy because the turnovers were pretty even. And the Celtics were getting to the free throw line. That wasn't an issue. And they both shot, you know, good from three, 38% for the Celtics, 35% for the Knicks. Those are good, good numbers, but 13 more attempts because the Knicks own the boards. And this is the second consecutive game where that happened.
And, you know, it just goes, it's very basic. It goes, it comes back to like, you know, your dudes, who's going to go get a rebound when you need it.
Yeah. There was one point I looked at Tatum and wait, where I combined 13 for 25 from three. And then the Celtics were still like down by a point. I'm like, that's not a good sign. If you had told me. that that was going to be the number. It was six minutes, seven minutes left in the fourth quarter that those two guys were going to have that and they would still be losing.
So Jalen rollercoaster game. Before Tatum got hurt, I just thought he was so good on both sides. I mean, he had five steals, two blocks. He was all over the place, just over and over again, attacking towns, attacking towns, attacking towns, and really kept them in it. And the irony of what happened late was that it felt like this was going to be
you know, potentially another version of the Jason Tatum game. He's had a couple of those. Like he had the game in Milwaukee, he had the game in Philly, but this was, I thought the best all around game I had seen him play a couple of dumb threes here and there. But for the most part, uh, was, was awesome. Did the Knicks seem like a finals team to you, Kyle?
I mean, based on what's on the board, yeah. Yeah, I guess that Tatum's going to be down. Yeah, I just thought as far as brilliantly as Tatum played, though, he was living a tough life. I mean, nine isolations on the game, and a lot of it was working. They talked a lot about on the broadcast that Carl is really vulnerable in drop.
He's really vulnerable side to side, but he is decent at kind of staying down, and he's long enough to contest. They were talking about how he bothered Durant. Tatum just kept working hard, and he wasn't really getting by him. And a lot of the shots that he was getting to, he was making them. But he was just kind of doing his thing where he steps backwards. I don't know.
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Chapter 3: What were the key factors in the Celtics vs Knicks Game 4 performance?
And I didn't think Tibbs did a good job offensively the first three games, but I thought they mixed it up better in this game. It felt like everybody was a little more involved. So this could go down as... We'll see what happens with Tatum, but this could go down as one of the darker Celtic days. I mean, honestly, because especially the timing of... Not to mention, he's at the peak of his career.
He's never had a major injury, Tatum. And if this is a major one, it doesn't just take him out for this playoffs, but it takes him out for, I think, all of next year, too. Uh, as you said, he is late twenties and you just wonder, like, is he going to be able to get back to the point that he was at tonight? So we'll find out.
The shame of it is the Celtics should have just tanked down the stretch, got themselves into the play and lost in the play in game and then used a half of a percent chance. chances. It's a miracle what happens in the NBA. Miracles happen, Bill Simmons.
It's amazing how it shifted, though, from what you're talking about, Bill, like the conversation that we were on this night. And if you're lucky, you get to have this conversation about your career and everything has to go right. And it just speaks to how difficult it is.
But Tatum gets to this point in his mid to late 20s where we're starting to have this conversation about like, well, what are the levels are there left? And now it's like, do we get to have that conversation again? You know, now it's shifted to like, you just spelled it out. Can he, it shifts to, can he get back?
And yeah, that's, I mean, that's a huge fucking bummer, man, because, um, and I was just thinking, I was talking to how about this before we got on that. Um, can you ever remember one night where there were more fan bases that were just absolutely depressed for a wide variety of reasons than tonight?
Because I can't like somehow houses fan base didn't crack the top two for, for, uh, Most depressed. Yeah. Well, we'll see what happens with Tatum. But this speaks to A, how hard it is to win a title. B, how important injury luck is. And C, how hard it is to just put together some really good years in a row.
Even to be in the finals two years in a row with how basketball is played now and how physical and intense it is. Tatum was playing 40, 43 minutes a night and doing everything. He was the leading rebounder on the team. He was guarding Brunson. you know, a few times in this series. And, and today he was kind of their best option to guard Brunson. He was the point forward over and over again.
He's attacking the rim. I thought when heart tripped him, I couldn't, I thought that was a dirty play. They didn't even review it. Um, but he, you know, he was getting pounded on the whole game and, uh, You know, you need some luck with this stuff. We're gonna take a break for the podcast. This episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush Deodorant.
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Chapter 4: How did the NBA draft lottery results shock fans and experts?
I'm feeling, I'm feeling the, this is the all time night for me to feel that way. Yeah, listen, they had 8.5% odds to move into the top four and 1.8% to win the thing. So when we went into commercial, I was like, all right, 8.5% makes sense. Charlotte had 14%. Charlotte's probably going to win. Dallas will get like two, three, or four.
I was more mad that Philly somehow got their bacon saved and ended up staying in the top six. I think that was another thing, House, for conspiracy bill. They couldn't let OKC have the seventh pick in the draft. They had to maybe do something on that. What?
I mean, I'll just interrupt you for a second. Another miracle. Daryl Morey and Nico Harrison both get rewarded. Two of the top three worst contract responsible for the worst outcomes in terms of their franchises during the course of this season. It's just a miracle that both of them land where they land.
I mean, JKM had to use a real-life miracle to make the analogy to the miracle that we witnessed at the NBA.
I liked yours over text, Joe. I don't know if you're willing to say it, but yours was pretty good.
I'll give you the actual numbers. 0.014 for that top three to go the way it did, which I think says it all. And Utah somehow falls to five. And House's stupid team, the Wizards, who were either one of the worst or second worst teams of the season, and they fall to six. And you can't make this shit up, House.
I mean, I had the good fortune of going on with Kyle on the NBA draft show last week, and he was very kind. He said, let's do a State of the Wizards. Within all reason, we think that they're going to get one of the top four picks, like at the very outside. You know what pick we didn't discuss under any circumstances whatsoever? The sixth fucking pick. We didn't talk about number six.
You didn't talk about three teams jumping you? We didn't. We didn't.
I guess four teams.
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Chapter 5: What are the implications of the Mavericks winning the No. 1 draft pick?
What is out of the realm of possibility for them in terms of what they could do to just springboard off of this?
Well, and the other thing with him, he just turned 18. Like, yeah, he grew because he just turned 18.
I mean, he's a young, young, young fella, but go ahead. Right. He's still taking like the long naps and getting up at three in the afternoon. I think he can play right away next year and be good.
So for what they're trying to do, the question for me now is, could they flip Gafford or Lively and try to get one more score and try to buy time and just be in the playoff picture and then hope that Kyrie can come back April range and be in really good shape. I do wonder there's two trades. Actually, there's three trades and I don't think they should trade flag. I think they should keep them.
I'm just going to say that.
Yeah.
But would you, would you trade him to get Luca back would be the first trade. That would be the funniest outcome of all that, right?
That's the funniest.
That would be hilarious. I mean, they'd have to throw in contracts, but what would the Lakers do if they called and said, hey, we want Luka back. We'll give you Cooper Flagg and some contracts. Second, now, I'll do a quick Giannis thing. That story today, I don't know what the hell that story was about.
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Chapter 6: How does Cooper Flagg compare to other prospects in the draft?
If you really, and again, I would not trade flag, but if San Antonio was like, we'll just flip spots and here's a whole bunch of stuff.
They have a war chest of picks.
I probably would include anyone except Castle and obviously Wemba Nyama. But I just wonder, could Dallas actually turn this into a real haul? You didn't exclude De'Aaron Fox? You're putting him on the table? Well, what am I going to do with him and Kyrie? Kyrie's still on the team. Kyrie ain't playing next year, buddy. I know, I know it's not.
The Aaron Fox could play. It'd be interesting to see if Kyrie's ever the same again, but I'm not ready to assume that at his age. I just think the Mavs, the Mavs, the more you think about the roster, they are going to have some, they have some dissonance in the Gafford.
I know that it's kind of up in the air, the Gafford, Lively, AD, like flag thing, even if they did somehow get into the Giannis conversation. Giannis and AD is fun to think about, but Do we talk about the aging curve for Giannis enough, though? He's 31 years old. He's a heavily downhill player. Can't really shoot. I love him to death, but I just wonder how his game is going to age.
And you just start to think about trading him. And what's the upside? How much time are you really going to get? I don't know.
Can I ask you a Cooper Flag roster question?
Yeah, let's go.
Could you play him at small forward? Yeah.
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Chapter 7: What trade scenarios could the Mavericks explore after the lottery win?
The against the arguments was how San Antonio just got Tim Duncan and Victor went down somehow. Right. Those would be the two. Uh, San Antonio at number two, Kyle. So there, they get a lot. I mean, there's so much basketball news today. The Knicks are up three, one Tatum. God only knows how bad that injury was. We still don't know. Flag goes to Dallas. Nico Harrison, I guess saves his job.
And yet buried in underneath all of this is, oh shit. I hope San Antonio doesn't get another awesome pick and they end up getting number two, which you think is going to be Dylan Harper, right?
Yeah, yeah, I do. I thought a lot about it. And, you know, I think for them, if San Antonio does stay in the thinking that we were just talking about, where they are definitely, they could play this a number of ways. They could play this where they could potentially look at getting a bigger piece because we know Victor is,
ready to roll i mean he's he's he's ready he has been ready sooner than we thought you know he's already on that defensive player of the year you know track they go and they get deer and fox to show their seriousness are they going to make one more move but i think taking harper if you look at it just in the right now basketball sense i wrote in our mock draft that just went up if you want to check that out we're going to talk about it more on the ringer nba draft show tomorrow but
He can play with Fox. He can play. He can play with any. They can bring him along slowly because he has such great positional size. But I also think that he's if they do choose to make a move, I think he's the best asset available. So he kind of serves both purposes because Harper isn't quite the flag level.
He's probably more on the Cade level of a number one pick type player if Flag wasn't there. But I think he's the most attractive asset for if there's a team out there that is heartbroken, that wants to make a move, that wants to start over, let's say hypothetically, just pulling the name out of the hat, Milwaukee. A great square one starting point, I think Harper serves that purpose.
So I think they can do both there. I don't think I would go any other direction than Harper there.
Hey, news just broke that Giannis is open-minded about barbecue tonight. But would also consider Ty. So did Frank. House, what needs to be in a Giannis trade if the number two pick is the prize of the trade to get Giannis? What else needs to be in there? Do I have to get Castle if I'm Milwaukee? Is it number two and I have to get both? Am I good with number two and a bunch of picks?
Does Devin Vassell have to be in that trade? Who else needs to be in it?
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Chapter 8: What are the biggest historical NBA draft lottery miracles and controversies?
I was saying Daryl loves fill-the-box score guys. He loves like the 18 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals. What's not to love? Ace is kind of the opposite. But Kyle, you had Ace going to the Sixers anyway, but I thought you had a good case for it.
Well, I mean, if you're thinking about the Sixers, and I'll throw this to some of you, for you guys, for how you feel about what they're going to be thinking about. Are they going to make a serious run at rebooting this in the short term? I mean, you might as well. Well, the Embiid thing is a whole other conversation. But I'm thinking of...
If you're going to run this back and try one more time, Bailey does fit with what they would be doing because their touches are spoken for with Embiid, with Paul George, with Maxie, with McCain when he comes back. Bailey is a guy who, for people who haven't watched him, the most similar guy in terms of his shot diet is Michael Porter Jr. and the fact that he makes a lot. He's a non...
You both made faces.
He's a tough shot maker, you know, and I think he's somebody and one of his his efficiencies were hurt by what we were talking about before. He can he loves to he's somebody that like at the end of the clock, he can just make something out of nothing. So he has that. But he's also a pretty good athlete. There was a lot of Zach and I were talking about his measurement coming in.
There were people that thought he was six foot ten. I had heard that he was closer to six foot eight and a quarter. It turns out that's kind of closer to what he is. But he's somebody he's a supplementary kind of a guy, but he's long and explosive off of one step. So he can kind of block shots.
But my thing that I was saying to you about Vijay, which is what you thought Vijay absolutely could fit the bill and what you're talking about in terms of he could he could turn it. He's somebody that's not going to be really role insistent early on. He's going to be able to play off the ball. He's a crazy athlete. He measured really well. I think it's six foot five. I need to get the exact number.
We needed him to get to six foot five to be, I think the third pick, right? Cause you were worried he was going to basically be like a two guard.
Yeah.
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