The Bill Simmons Podcast
A Cooper Flaggasm, NBA Trends, Lorne Michaels Stories, and a Celtics Pyramid With J. Kyle Mann and Susan Morrison
Fri, 28 Feb 2025
In anticipation of the upcoming HBO documentary 'Celtics City', Bill reveals his 15 greatest Celtics ever (0:51), before talking with J. Kyle Mann about Cooper Flagg as an NBA prospect, a clear top three of NBA title contenders have emerged, a more fun league post-trade deadline, the 2024-25 rookie class, and more (10:27). Finally, Bill talks with author Susan Morrison about her new book, 'Lorne: The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live.' They talk about Lorne Michaels giving Susan unprecedented access, shadowing him for an entire week of 'SNL', Lorne's exit and return to 'SNL', prolific Lorne Micheals quotes, and much more (01:15:29). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: J. Kyle Mann and Susan Morrison Producers: Kyle Crichton and Chia Hao Tat The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who are the top 15 Celtics of all time?
It is about eight decades, how they intersect with the NBA and the city of Boston. and America and all the great players and robberies and feuds. And we're all really proud of it. So Monday, March 3rd, it's coming. In the meantime, I have a little pyramid for you. Celtics pyramid. I narrowed it to 15 players and we're gonna do it right now. Here it is. 15 players. And the catch is,
It has to be the Celtics version of them. So this isn't like Kevin Garnett. I'm not taking Kevin Garnett's whole career. It's just Kevin Garnett on the Celtics. Anyway, pyramid. Top level. One guy, Bill Russell. I have him as the number three all-time guy. 11 of 13 titles. The most important on and off court NBA star ever. Relevant. Greatest winner in the history of sports. Also relevant.
He's at the top. Next two, Larry Bird, John Havlicek. I don't need to make the case for Larry Bird. I have him as the sixth best guy ever. Three straight MVPs, three titles. But here's a fun Larry Bird fact. MVP from 1980 to 1988. Fourth, second, second, second, first, first, first, third, second. That's over nine years. Larry Bird was amazing. And I think he even would have been better now.
John Havlicek, In the running for most underrated NBA superstar of all time, eight titles, 25,000 points, played 16 years, which is like playing 25 years now. I don't know how he did it. His three-year peak, 27, nine and eight. His four-year playoff peak, 27-9-6, was one of the most clutch players of his era, if not the number two clutch guy behind Jerry West.
And the greatest thing about him, all-time Swiss Army knife guy. Had this whole career as a six-man. He could play guard. He could play forward. Whatever your team needed, He could do it. And then eventually he ended up as a forward during the last couple of titles. But there's never been a career quite like that where you're just winning when you come in, you're winning when you leave.
And then the next level. So Bob Cousy, if I had to do a Mount Rushmore, he would be the fourth guy for that. Six rings, won an MVP, best non-center of the first 15 years of the league. The first fun, entertaining player in the history of the league. That's relevant. First great point guard ever. Relevant. 10 first all-NBAs, two second all-NBAs. He was just a dominant player.
By the time he retired, he was basically the Babe Ruth of the league when he retired. And then he passed the torch to his teammate Russell and Elgin and Wilt and everybody else. But that's the top four. So the other two on that level that I would put, Dave Cowens, who was one of the most important players of the 70s, won an MVP, won a couple titles, and
The 70s Celtics or the 70s Knicks, those were the best two teams of that decade. And he was the most important player, him or Havlicek at least, for this entire Celtics run. So he's on there. And then Sam Jones, who's another underrated all-time guy, who didn't even really get to start because the league was so stacked. They had eight teams, nine teams.
He was coming off the bench behind Bill Sharman, who was also awesome. Didn't get to start until the last two-thirds of his career. But is one of the great clutch players in the history of the league, even now, and made all kinds of crazy shots. We covered some of them in the documentary. So Russell, then Bird and Havlicek, then Koozie Collins and Sam Jones. Then these next four, pretty easy.
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Chapter 2: What makes Cooper Flagg a unique NBA prospect?
Yeah, if you're creating a stretch forward guy for the whatever, however we play basketball now, it would probably look something like this, right? Maybe you'd make him an inch taller. What is he, six, seven and a half without sneakers?
I think he's six, eight. Yeah. Okay, maybe he grew.
Yeah. So maybe you'd add an inch there, but he's got the long arms. But this is everything you want for somebody next to some sort of big man who could have his hands around the rim and... and do all that stuff. When you try to compare them to people, Bird is the obvious one that everyone keeps like Bayham did just because it's a white guy who does a lot of stuff.
There's more Tatum with me than I think maybe, and maybe there's a Duke parallel with them too, but the way the Celtics use Tatum now as a point forward who can defend all these different positions on defense. I feel like that's going to be Flagg's destiny.
The difference is when Tatum came into the league, we knew he had a chance to be like a special player, but there were so many things that still needed to happen with him. He was a scorer. He felt a little Durant-ish. But there wasn't any semblance of the passing game that he has now or the defensive level that he's gone up to or even how much better of a rebounder he is.
Flag's kind of already doing all those things, and I just don't know what he looks like when he's 25. Because I assume he's just going to keep working as three point shot and eventually he'll just be like a 40 to 45 percent three point shooter. I assume he'll add a couple of low post things. I assume he'll get really good at passing out of double teams.
But for the most part, to be this close to a finished product at age 18 from a skill standpoint, that's what's so unusual, I think.
Yeah, it's really, I mean, it's really, really well-rounded. You mentioned, I mean, the bird thing is funny just because Cooper, I think, as you know, grew up with a heavy Boston connection. Well, that's the thing.
Yeah, he got indoctrinated in the 86 Celts highlights from his great mom. One of the great moms of the last 40 years just showing him highlights.
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Chapter 3: How do NBA team strategies impact player development?
Chapter 4: What are the key NBA trends this season?
Some signs the other night. I'm all in. I haven't sold any of my Dillingham stack.
Mm-hmm.
I like that he seems like a great teammate and a real competitor too, which I like.
Yeah. You know what I realized after we had finished the draft work last year? I was like, Nick Van Exel. I kept saying he just.
Oh, that's a good one.
Yeah. I said he was in the Nick Van Exel spiritual lineage. And I was like, that's perfect. He's the guy. Maybe you don't lean on him heavily because you could fall down and kill yourself. But, you know, here and there in spurts, he comes in and he's obviously really talented, him and Ant. I don't know if he's going to solve Minnesota's problems or anything like that. But I still believe in Rob.
Who's your favorite non-Cooper flag college guy right now?
Oh, boy. Let me pull up my list here. I mean, of the... Let's see. Of the guys at the top.
I'm fascinated by the other Rutgers guy. And I know he's either going to break hearts. Ace? I'm fascinated by Ace. I don't know what he is. If I was a GM, I think I'd be afraid to be like, all right, this is my third pick. I'm going all in on this guy because... There's a chance it just is not going to translate to the NBA in the right way.
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Chapter 5: How does Jimmy Butler fit with the Golden State Warriors?
Yeah, the context is just so infuriating whenever you hear people talk about the history of the league. Talking about Koozie, people just drive me nuts because they'll go back and use the lens of today and watch the way he's dribbling. The officiating of dribbling is one of the things that single-handedly changed the way the game is played. It just blew the walls down.
You're talking about the carrying. Yeah, they they used to. It was so strict. Your hand had to be directly on the top of the ball. And, you know, I made a video at this one time. You just watched over the decades. The hand the hand went from the top to kind of on the side to totally on the side to under. Now it's. Yeah. And I think it's been a good thing.
I think it promoted self-expression, which is what the league marketed itself on and exploded. But I just think.
koozie is one that is funny to watch if you imagine a game where you had to dribble the way that he did it was pretty creative granted the league wasn't i don't know integrated or anything like that definitely was that well you had so you had you the dribbling thing you had the sneakers the fact that they're playing and you know just these rinky-dink converses and uh
And then it was really, really physical. You know, you're just, people are just like, it was more like hockey. They called them cagers, you know, the first 15 years of the league. So it's a, it's a different sport. The other thing with the assists, like they're scoring all these points.
You only got an assist if it was like the guy is catching the ball and like laying in or the guy is catching it and shooting immediately or they didn't count it.
So I've heard old guys complain about that.
Oh my God. I mean, they complained, they must complain about so many different things, but, uh, like the equipment they had, the money they didn't make, uh, all the statistical rules against them. But, uh, but yeah.
And then, you know, it's, it's, we try to use the Celtics as a lens to look at the league and the sport and how it changed and how it intersected with America and all these different ways. And, it is hilarious how the footage changes over the years. Even you watch the stuff from the 80s, like we have a big part about the Boston Philly series in 1981, which is like probably my favorite series ever.
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Chapter 6: Why is the NBA more fun post-trade deadline?
It's a tough one. And Marcelo never wavered on Cade. Neither did I. I don't understand it. But I think, you know, he was a different guy than he was this year. Yeah. And everyone's admitting, really, from the last couple months, anyone who listened to any of our stuff or any of the stuff we were doing, it was like something really good is happening with Cade Cunningham here. Mm-hmm.
And it keeps going and going and going. And the veteran shooters they put around them, I think is a good model for how to build a team. It's interesting though, Like right now they're sixth. They have a chance to bump to four or five. If I were them, I'd want to be in that sixth spot and I'd want to play the Knicks because I think they could give the Knicks a shitload of trouble.
They're a really tough physical team. They're probably, if they're not the best rebounding team in the league, they're in the top three. Um, I just would want to see them in a playoff series and it's probably a year too early. It's probably like what Orlando is like last year. It was like, Oh, watch out for these guys. And then they shoot 20% in a game seven.
But, uh, when you can rebound and you have veteran shooting and you have one guy that you can go to in the last five minutes, I just, I'm taking you seriously. So I knew they were going to beat the Celtics last night. No Jalen Brown, third game and fourth night. It's kind of a bad matchup. Celts are kind of stuck in the second spot.
Like that felt like a loss, but it's still a really nice win for Detroit. Like they've won eight straight. I'm taking them. I'm taking them seriously as at least the first round upset threat. I think you have to think of them that way now.
Yeah, they're in that position where they may not beat the Knicks, but they're in the position to really take a bite out of them as they enter the next round, which is, they're definitely not going to be a pushover. And I think you're right about, they had the guys that were athletic, you know, Asar and Jalen Duren. Durin is somebody that I was really high on.
I couldn't believe the way he got stolen in that draft. He was somebody that very obviously fit the archetype of somebody that could switch, and he's just super athletic. So sort of a poor man's band type of archetype guy. And in the shooting, a lot of the times, that's the simplest answer. You got a downhill guy, just add some space around him.
It seems like it's not rocket science, but Pistons finally did it. I mean...
their top five net last 15 games or plus 7.6. That's like you're, if you're in the top five for a 15 to 20 game stretch at this point of the season, I think you have to be taken seriously. Anyway. All right, Kyle, man, I'll, I'll, we'll, you'll come back at some point when we're in the March madness throws, but it was good to see you as always.
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Chapter 7: Which NBA rookies are standing out this season?
It seems like he's probably put more thought into this than just about anybody. Cause a lot of people have managed successful companies and,
not a lot of people have managed a successful company that also has to do with all the things that come with fame and managers and agents and the temptations and, you know, whether you stay loyal to the infrastructure of the show or you leave and you do something else. And it just felt like he had put like an extraordinary amount of thought into it.
And that was one of the things I loved about your book is like, it's really in there. Like you really feel like all these different examples of like, it's time for them to go or they're going to find out the hard way that they shouldn't have left. Like he, it just seems like that's like one of the legacies of Lauren basically.
Yeah, I mean, one of the things, Chris Rock was a great source, very smart guy. And he said, think about it, this guy has been hundreds, if not thousands of people's boss. And if that doesn't make you an expert on human behavior, you know, what does? I mean, he's almost like a shrink. He's seen so many people go through this weird crucible right, of change.
You think about Bill Hader comes from Oklahoma in his early 20s. His only job had been working, you know, as an assistant on Iron Chef, right? And you see these people working And then they become famous overnight. You know, Lauren says he's the world's expert on watching people get famous. And very often he's fully aware there's like an asshole phase. You know, you become a big jerk for a while.
But it's the thing, like if it lasts more than 15 minutes, you just stay an asshole or you had some quote like that.
Yeah, so he knows how to shepherd people through this. But in terms of like the management approach, I think that, I think it's largely intuitive. Like I, you know, I remember Judd Apatow hearing once about how when he was a 25 year old or 26 year old, young show runner working on Ben Stiller's Fox variety show in the 80s, which is a great show that got canceled right away. He was terrified.
He didn't know how to manage people. He was holed up in his office reading, you know, management for dummies, like trying to learn how to do it. Laura never did anything like that. I think he, a lot of it is intuitive. He's got great EQ, but also, and this was the fun part about researching the book, I mean, sometimes I think he's almost like a young character out of Dickens or something.
Like every stop along the way, every bad job that he had, he nonetheless learned something important from it. Like you can see him going through the first 30 years of his life, gathering the little individual skills to becoming a producer. And especially his interactions with stars.
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Chapter 8: How has basketball evolved over the decades?
Now, maybe somebody would just approach it completely differently and be fine. But I just hadn't thought about it before.
yeah it's it's steve higgins calls it like five-dimensional chess he's thinking yeah do i keep the host happy do i make sure like the show i was at you know i think one of the reasons that you know one of the sketches got canned it's just because it was these huge movie theater seats they were just too damn hard to get in and out of the doors so like next you know and um and it's like twenty thousand twenty thousand dollars down the drain the moment they say no thanks someone
have time to get the prosthetic head on, you know? And there's so many things that, you know, All week, I mean, this probably is a decisive management choice. One of the things that's so cool is that all week long, Lorne is soliciting opinions from everybody. And not just the writers and the cast, but the costume assistants, the pages. He wants to hear from everybody.
He likes to think of it as an egalitarian enterprise, that everyone is as necessary as everybody else. And I know that sometimes in meetings even, he has a sheet of paper and he'll jot down every time someone has spoken because he wants to make sure everybody in the room says something. And then, so he's metabolizing all those points of view all week.
And then there's a moment after the dress rehearsal When he walks up this little cinder block staircase, it's like the least glamorous place in the building, up to his office. And I just thought of this now. It's almost like, do you watch Severance?
Yeah.
You know how they go in the elevator and then they go... It's like he goes up the staircase and he becomes the other guy. So then he's in his office and suddenly... he's not thinking about what everybody else says. It's just him.
It's just, so the whole week is about him peaking for that hour. Yeah.
And then he goes upstairs, becomes Superman. And then he is the decider and everything that comes out of his mouth, like it's him, it's him, it's him, it's him. And so to see that transformation, like it is really, it's really interesting.
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