Susan Morrison
👤 PersonPodcast Appearances
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman and Michael Weakley.
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman and Michael Weakley.
Yes. Someone who had the experience, which is come to L.A., go to the Groundlings because I know that's a feeder for Saturday Night Live, singularly focused on being good there so I can get to Saturday Night Live. The only goal is Saturday Night Live. I was just talking to another actor. Yes. It's so unique in that if you audition for Oliver Stone and you don't get it, that's OK.
Yes. Someone who had the experience, which is come to L.A., go to the Groundlings because I know that's a feeder for Saturday Night Live, singularly focused on being good there so I can get to Saturday Night Live. The only goal is Saturday Night Live. I was just talking to another actor. Yes. It's so unique in that if you audition for Oliver Stone and you don't get it, that's OK.
The Coen brothers are going to cast a movie in two weeks and you got a shot there and then so-and-so is going to cast a movie. But Saturday Night Live is the only option if that's what your mind was set on. If you don't get the audition or you get it and you don't get made or he opens up the kingdoms, I think there's so rarely a singular focus goal in show business.
The Coen brothers are going to cast a movie in two weeks and you got a shot there and then so-and-so is going to cast a movie. But Saturday Night Live is the only option if that's what your mind was set on. If you don't get the audition or you get it and you don't get made or he opens up the kingdoms, I think there's so rarely a singular focus goal in show business.
Generally, you're like, I want to act. But he's the only gatekeeper. That's it.
Generally, you're like, I want to act. But he's the only gatekeeper. That's it.
Wow. So his boss tells him that. When they're making $7,500 a week in Manhattan.
Wow. So his boss tells him that. When they're making $7,500 a week in Manhattan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. Okay, so let's maybe just start with where Lauren comes from. Because I do wonder if part of being inoculated to that 80s trope of I'm a workaholic, I wonder if there's any Canadian in the mix.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. Okay, so let's maybe just start with where Lauren comes from. Because I do wonder if part of being inoculated to that 80s trope of I'm a workaholic, I wonder if there's any Canadian in the mix.
Right, right, right.
Right, right, right.
Oh, the Steve Martin quote you put in there is so great. It's like Dave Letterman is truly self-deprecating.
Oh, the Steve Martin quote you put in there is so great. It's like Dave Letterman is truly self-deprecating.
Lauren does not suffer from this issue.
Lauren does not suffer from this issue.
His grandparents owned a movie theater, but that's a unique experience where the family has declared, we value show business. You say in the book, his grandparents would talk about all these actors, Humphrey Bogart, on a level where he would think they might know these people.
His grandparents owned a movie theater, but that's a unique experience where the family has declared, we value show business. You say in the book, his grandparents would talk about all these actors, Humphrey Bogart, on a level where he would think they might know these people.
That's the impossible quality that he has is keeping it relevant and fresh, which seems impossible for 50 years. But I would say even like his access. So he had a rich aunt and uncle.
That's the impossible quality that he has is keeping it relevant and fresh, which seems impossible for 50 years. But I would say even like his access. So he had a rich aunt and uncle.
They had a swimming pool in their house.
They had a swimming pool in their house.
It just recently sold for $18 million.
It just recently sold for $18 million.
No!
No!
Yes, such close proximity to wealth, coveting that, seeing that the attention in the family is show business movie stars. We all want to be the star of our family first. And it's like if you see the things that are valued and then also getting kind of an education of how to move in an upscale thing as later in life he'll have to do, acting like you've been there even though you haven't. Right.
Yes, such close proximity to wealth, coveting that, seeing that the attention in the family is show business movie stars. We all want to be the star of our family first. And it's like if you see the things that are valued and then also getting kind of an education of how to move in an upscale thing as later in life he'll have to do, acting like you've been there even though you haven't. Right.
I'm sure you're only getting glowing reviews of Naomi and Adam. Oh, yeah. Love it. How did she end up with that job?
I'm sure you're only getting glowing reviews of Naomi and Adam. Oh, yeah. Love it. How did she end up with that job?
So how does he get from Toronto to Laugh-Inn?
So how does he get from Toronto to Laugh-Inn?
I think that's really fascinating.
I think that's really fascinating.
I have to believe there's just a nice layer of anti-Semitism under all of it. No, I mean, it was a very Jewish area. That's probably true. Yeah, I mean, why were they, it seems so judgmental.
I have to believe there's just a nice layer of anti-Semitism under all of it. No, I mean, it was a very Jewish area. That's probably true. Yeah, I mean, why were they, it seems so judgmental.
I guess it's also that Canadian tall poppy thing.
I guess it's also that Canadian tall poppy thing.
But it had more of a nouveau riche kind of a take, like these people were grotesque in their striving. It was much more of a straight judgment of how they were doing it.
But it had more of a nouveau riche kind of a take, like these people were grotesque in their striving. It was much more of a straight judgment of how they were doing it.
Well, we send Adam Scott angry voice memos after every episode. That's kind of our participation in it. We yell at him for cliffhangers. Why is this taking so long? Are you guys shooting this show three hours a week? Why isn't there another season?
Well, we send Adam Scott angry voice memos after every episode. That's kind of our participation in it. We yell at him for cliffhangers. Why is this taking so long? Are you guys shooting this show three hours a week? Why isn't there another season?
Yeah, and also, just to jump to the live aspect, improv live is spectacular. Improv on television is terrible. Because you've lost the element of danger that failure is on the table around every corner. There's no safety net. And so SNL being live is such an interesting... They've captured some of that danger, even in the live broadcasts. Whereas like Laugh-In edited, something gets reduced.
Yeah, and also, just to jump to the live aspect, improv live is spectacular. Improv on television is terrible. Because you've lost the element of danger that failure is on the table around every corner. There's no safety net. And so SNL being live is such an interesting... They've captured some of that danger, even in the live broadcasts. Whereas like Laugh-In edited, something gets reduced.
There's no fear there.
There's no fear there.
I think the audience bridges that gap. The audience is like a huge character in Saturday Night Live.
I think the audience bridges that gap. The audience is like a huge character in Saturday Night Live.
Well, that's his way to control chaos, which is if you enter a room and someone's shouting and you start talking very low, you can bring them down.
Well, that's his way to control chaos, which is if you enter a room and someone's shouting and you start talking very low, you can bring them down.
This guest, Susan Morrison.
This guest, Susan Morrison.
It's become an IQ test where it's like the gap between year one and two is three and then it's got to be six and then we go up to... Yeah, exactly.
It's become an IQ test where it's like the gap between year one and two is three and then it's got to be six and then we go up to... Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. What is the saying that you wrote down?
Yeah. What is the saying that you wrote down?
Which is a very liberating approach in a way.
Which is a very liberating approach in a way.
I didn't know this until your book.
I didn't know this until your book.
What about feeling? Like Will Ferrell, positive I've seen moments where the thing's going awry, the audience is in on it, he starts feeling... Maybe ad-lib. Yes. Acknowledging what's happening and just bridging this gap
What about feeling? Like Will Ferrell, positive I've seen moments where the thing's going awry, the audience is in on it, he starts feeling... Maybe ad-lib. Yes. Acknowledging what's happening and just bridging this gap
What are his rules of sketch?
What are his rules of sketch?
Well, when you write for 10 years, you're liable to stack up some pages.
Well, when you write for 10 years, you're liable to stack up some pages.
I found this really interesting. He has no tolerance for people that are doing impersonations out of a place of hate. And this is an increasingly interesting dynamic that's presented itself in the last decade on
I found this really interesting. He has no tolerance for people that are doing impersonations out of a place of hate. And this is an increasingly interesting dynamic that's presented itself in the last decade on
the show which is everyone's politics are so fucking rigid now that you have these performers that almost refuse to lampoon liberals then if they're playing a conservative they hate the conservative they're playing with and they have a tendency to make them unenjoyable to watch
the show which is everyone's politics are so fucking rigid now that you have these performers that almost refuse to lampoon liberals then if they're playing a conservative they hate the conservative they're playing with and they have a tendency to make them unenjoyable to watch
I have a similar, I wonder if you attribute it to your childhood. We moved so much that in 30 years in LA, I lived in one single apartment for 10 years. Then I lived in a house for 16. And now we're here and I just don't ever want to.
I have a similar, I wonder if you attribute it to your childhood. We moved so much that in 30 years in LA, I lived in one single apartment for 10 years. Then I lived in a house for 16. And now we're here and I just don't ever want to.
They're fun. Yeah.
They're fun. Yeah.
Yeah, if someone didn't want to play Feinstein.
Yeah, if someone didn't want to play Feinstein.
Well, he has to give a speech at one point that you're privy to, which is he basically just says your politics aren't the politics of the show. Those are two different things. Our obligation is to bring truth and humor to power on both sides. That's right. We're not doing one version here.
Well, he has to give a speech at one point that you're privy to, which is he basically just says your politics aren't the politics of the show. Those are two different things. Our obligation is to bring truth and humor to power on both sides. That's right. We're not doing one version here.
You could watch five minutes of it and be pretty certain.
You could watch five minutes of it and be pretty certain.
We have these famous sketches of who was it that did Jimmy Carter?
We have these famous sketches of who was it that did Jimmy Carter?
Yeah, Dan Aykroyd. They have a rich tradition of blasting liberals and Republicans.
Yeah, Dan Aykroyd. They have a rich tradition of blasting liberals and Republicans.
So funny. Oh, incredible. Yeah.
So funny. Oh, incredible. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Right. He's pretty dialed in. Well, even Chappelle in his recent monologue. Yeah. Because I know you're watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he is. That's crazy. He's talking directly to the president right now. That's crazy. I want to talk about the drug stuff. This... field of people really over indexes in addiction, myself included, and to love and root for and guide all these people.
Right. He's pretty dialed in. Well, even Chappelle in his recent monologue. Yeah. Because I know you're watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he is. That's crazy. He's talking directly to the president right now. That's crazy. I want to talk about the drug stuff. This... field of people really over indexes in addiction, myself included, and to love and root for and guide all these people.
Did you get psychotic about your room? Like ideas like wherever we went, at least my little bubble could be the same. And if someone altered my bubble, I was irrationally upset.
Did you get psychotic about your room? Like ideas like wherever we went, at least my little bubble could be the same. And if someone altered my bubble, I was irrationally upset.
He would have to have a great radar for what's happening over the years, having watched so many of the performers struggle with this. And I'm most curious how it's evolved for him, what kind of regrets he has.
He would have to have a great radar for what's happening over the years, having watched so many of the performers struggle with this. And I'm most curious how it's evolved for him, what kind of regrets he has.
And I think if you party yourself, it could be a little misleading. Like, well, I smoke weed. I mean, he's getting pulled over with weed in the car. Yeah.
And I think if you party yourself, it could be a little misleading. Like, well, I smoke weed. I mean, he's getting pulled over with weed in the car. Yeah.
Was it?
Was it?
Between the gap of Arthur 1 and 2, my dad went to treatment and got sober. So it literally happened real time for us. That's so interesting. It's not super cute that this guy's hammered all day long.
Between the gap of Arthur 1 and 2, my dad went to treatment and got sober. So it literally happened real time for us. That's so interesting. It's not super cute that this guy's hammered all day long.
What year did he die?
What year did he die?
Yes. And you're dropping in every four years to a totally different social setting and culture and vibe. Were you good at meshing?
Yes. And you're dropping in every four years to a totally different social setting and culture and vibe. Were you good at meshing?
You got to approach it like an addiction.
You got to approach it like an addiction.
You end up regulating how you feel by this job. And it works. And then when the job goes away, you're in trouble.
You end up regulating how you feel by this job. And it works. And then when the job goes away, you're in trouble.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a drug. What are Lauren's five rules of show business longevity? Oh, boy.
Yeah, that's a drug. What are Lauren's five rules of show business longevity? Oh, boy.
And if you get three out of five, that'll be good.
And if you get three out of five, that'll be good.
So she is the articles editor at The New Yorker. She has a new book out right now, Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. This is like a crazy fun, juicy history of Saturday Night Live.
So she is the articles editor at The New Yorker. She has a new book out right now, Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. This is like a crazy fun, juicy history of Saturday Night Live.
Even in his speech, like, this show airs in 50 states, right?
Even in his speech, like, this show airs in 50 states, right?
Tell me.
Tell me.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
There's sides here. Yes. Oh, yeah. I refuse to be on one. I think everyone got fucked. I agree.
There's sides here. Yes. Oh, yeah. I refuse to be on one. I think everyone got fucked. I agree.
And you're trying to, like, figure out what is the broken part. Is Conan not appealing? Is it the leading that sucks?
And you're trying to, like, figure out what is the broken part. Is Conan not appealing? Is it the leading that sucks?
That looks like it. nothing anybody wants.
That looks like it. nothing anybody wants.
That's like breach of contract.
That's like breach of contract.
I actually don't think there's a total bad guy in the situation. I guess NBC is the bad guy, but it's not like this was their master plan. It all went to shit and they didn't know how to fix it.
I actually don't think there's a total bad guy in the situation. I guess NBC is the bad guy, but it's not like this was their master plan. It all went to shit and they didn't know how to fix it.
For sure. I want to go back to the little girl. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in that move, which is someone feigning a disability is... Like, needs to be policed by the social hierarchy. It's not just that you had a broken arm and she's pissed you were getting attention.
For sure. I want to go back to the little girl. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in that move, which is someone feigning a disability is... Like, needs to be policed by the social hierarchy. It's not just that you had a broken arm and she's pissed you were getting attention.
You touched on it a little bit, but it launches in 75. And then I guess in 80, he splits. Yeah. Does he have a reason why he splits at that moment?
You touched on it a little bit, but it launches in 75. And then I guess in 80, he splits. Yeah. Does he have a reason why he splits at that moment?
And you got to have them on a seven-year contract when they arrive.
And you got to have them on a seven-year contract when they arrive.
It's not his wheelhouse.
It's not his wheelhouse.
Movies is not a writer's medium. TV is, but not movies.
Movies is not a writer's medium. TV is, but not movies.
Which would be disrespectful to someone who had lost it.
Which would be disrespectful to someone who had lost it.
I want to be me.
I want to be me.
Who's that?
Who's that?
I mean, most people wouldn't. Their ego would have gotten them. Yeah.
I mean, most people wouldn't. Their ego would have gotten them. Yeah.
When he came back, did he leverage any of that to get now ownership or anything? Did he have a better position when he returned?
When he came back, did he leverage any of that to get now ownership or anything? Did he have a better position when he returned?
I think it's an instinct. That's what I'm arguing. I think there's something like very primitive about us being social primates where it's like if someone's pretending to be infirmed and they're not, that's deception. That's fascinating reaction to come up and kick a girl.
I think it's an instinct. That's what I'm arguing. I think there's something like very primitive about us being social primates where it's like if someone's pretending to be infirmed and they're not, that's deception. That's fascinating reaction to come up and kick a girl.
Yeah, Anthony Michael Hall and RDJ.
Yeah, Anthony Michael Hall and RDJ.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So this was interesting from the book. Everyone thinks the best years of Seriant Live were whatever years they watched in high school.
So this was interesting from the book. Everyone thinks the best years of Seriant Live were whatever years they watched in high school.
Which makes total sense. Is there any objective way to evaluate it? I guess you would have ratings as some metric, but can we say what the golden arrows are? Of course, I'm skewed. What was your high school in? Sandler and Chris Farley and Dana Carvey was still there. And I would argue those were some damn good years. And Phil Hartman.
Which makes total sense. Is there any objective way to evaluate it? I guess you would have ratings as some metric, but can we say what the golden arrows are? Of course, I'm skewed. What was your high school in? Sandler and Chris Farley and Dana Carvey was still there. And I would argue those were some damn good years. And Phil Hartman.
You're awakening to this. It's your first taste of it all.
You're awakening to this. It's your first taste of it all.
Tina, Amy. That was mine.
Tina, Amy. That was mine.
Yes. That's the UCB vibe coming in. That's right. Groundlings was very broad. Will Ferrell was Groundlings. And then once it went into that UCB zone, starting with Amy.
Yes. That's the UCB vibe coming in. That's right. Groundlings was very broad. Will Ferrell was Groundlings. And then once it went into that UCB zone, starting with Amy.
It's like they're in a shitty little theater in Manhattan. It's free. You line up. It had a very punk rock vibe.
It's like they're in a shitty little theater in Manhattan. It's free. You line up. It had a very punk rock vibe.
So you've just explained it. I've not ever understood that. As it was explained to me when I got into the growlings, they're like, okay. Second City, they generally will do political stuff. Groundlings, we do not do politics. Second City, you don't write your sketches so you don't own anything. They all own it, but you get paid. So that's an upside.
So you've just explained it. I've not ever understood that. As it was explained to me when I got into the growlings, they're like, okay. Second City, they generally will do political stuff. Groundlings, we do not do politics. Second City, you don't write your sketches so you don't own anything. They all own it, but you get paid. So that's an upside.
Groundlings, you have to pay to even have your theater time, but you write your own shit and you own everything you do there. It was a binary war for 30 years. And then UCB arrived. It's all improv or mostly all improv. And everyone looks punk rock and hungover. No one's in costumes. No one's in wigs.
Groundlings, you have to pay to even have your theater time, but you write your own shit and you own everything you do there. It was a binary war for 30 years. And then UCB arrived. It's all improv or mostly all improv. And everyone looks punk rock and hungover. No one's in costumes. No one's in wigs.
This is some of the drama we could get into because I think over the years I've watched different alumni from Saturday Night Live have their movie careers and some had Lauren produce stuff and some didn't. Famously, Mike Myers didn't do certain characters. You can do them once on the show and you own them, but if you do them twice... Oh, you know, I don't know.
This is some of the drama we could get into because I think over the years I've watched different alumni from Saturday Night Live have their movie careers and some had Lauren produce stuff and some didn't. Famously, Mike Myers didn't do certain characters. You can do them once on the show and you own them, but if you do them twice... Oh, you know, I don't know.
Right. I can walk in and be around strangers.
Right. I can walk in and be around strangers.
Yeah, I'd always heard Mike Myers intentionally didn't do Austin Powers on stage, even though he had the character because he didn't want Lauren to own it. He wanted to be able to go because he had done Wayne's World and he wanted to go be on his own.
Yeah, I'd always heard Mike Myers intentionally didn't do Austin Powers on stage, even though he had the character because he didn't want Lauren to own it. He wanted to be able to go because he had done Wayne's World and he wanted to go be on his own.
Exist, yeah, podcasts. What's your road to the New Yorker?
Exist, yeah, podcasts. What's your road to the New Yorker?
What's the Sandler story?
What's the Sandler story?
These were lads. They were almost fratty.
These were lads. They were almost fratty.
Sure, sure, sure. I love taking moral high ground in sketch comedy. That's wonderful.
Sure, sure, sure. I love taking moral high ground in sketch comedy. That's wonderful.
Oh, it was?
Oh, it was?
He was also 20 years in at that point. Yeah.
He was also 20 years in at that point. Yeah.
Oh, wow. Good for him.
Oh, wow. Good for him.
He's almost like the Queen of England. Like when you're watching The Crown and she's like, you're my third prime minister. Yeah. Exactly. I will be here after you're gone.
He's almost like the Queen of England. Like when you're watching The Crown and she's like, you're my third prime minister. Yeah. Exactly. I will be here after you're gone.
Oh, wow. What you'll do for your kids. You'll eat crow.
Oh, wow. What you'll do for your kids. You'll eat crow.
Yeah. It's wild. What's beating it as far as longevity? 60 Minutes maybe has been on longer?
Yeah. It's wild. What's beating it as far as longevity? 60 Minutes maybe has been on longer?
Yeah, 50 years. Every year I've been alive. Well, I love the book. I hope you take this as a compliment. It reads like a New Yorker article. It's so fast moving and every sentence is just packed with all this rich detail. Even his fucking desk, if you're describing his office, there's a story about the desk, but it's done in three sentences. You're just getting so much.
Yeah, 50 years. Every year I've been alive. Well, I love the book. I hope you take this as a compliment. It reads like a New Yorker article. It's so fast moving and every sentence is just packed with all this rich detail. Even his fucking desk, if you're describing his office, there's a story about the desk, but it's done in three sentences. You're just getting so much.
It's very dense in the most satisfying way. I really, really love it. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's out. I hope everyone reads it. It's so interesting. Every page you're like, oh, that's juicy. Oh, that's juicy.
It's very dense in the most satisfying way. I really, really love it. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's out. I hope everyone reads it. It's so interesting. Every page you're like, oh, that's juicy. Oh, that's juicy.
I find that hard to believe, but go on.
I find that hard to believe, but go on.
No, so you have taken the time to document his whole journey in a way that he himself probably hasn't constructed. There's no way if you spent 10 years writing a book about me, I'm not reading it.
No, so you have taken the time to document his whole journey in a way that he himself probably hasn't constructed. There's no way if you spent 10 years writing a book about me, I'm not reading it.
I think so much of the interest is we all have such a fondness for SNL and it's been a part of so many of our coming of age that you want to know how all that happened.
I think so much of the interest is we all have such a fondness for SNL and it's been a part of so many of our coming of age that you want to know how all that happened.
Yeah, you just learn along the way.
Yeah, you just learn along the way.
Yeah. Well, I love that. I hope everyone reads it. Thanks so much for coming in. It's really fun. And we'll talk to you in 10 years when you write your next book.
Yeah. Well, I love that. I hope everyone reads it. Thanks so much for coming in. It's really fun. And we'll talk to you in 10 years when you write your next book.
I might be napping till then.
I might be napping till then.
Look at these old new shoes.
Look at these old new shoes.
They look like Grammy, like they're really warning Grammys.
They look like Grammy, like they're really warning Grammys.
Tweed slippers. I wouldn't say tweed. Okay, don't say tweed. Were you a little drowsy?
Tweed slippers. I wouldn't say tweed. Okay, don't say tweed. Were you a little drowsy?
Yes, because it's a little gloomy and overcasty.
Yes, because it's a little gloomy and overcasty.
Yeah, crack ass.
Yeah, crack ass.
What time did you wake up?
What time did you wake up?
Yeah. Can I advise you on something? Sure. Don't fight it and feel bad about it because the converse situation is the one I'm in. I was like, I can't sleep past six. I would pay a shocking amount of money to be able to do it.
Yeah. Can I advise you on something? Sure. Don't fight it and feel bad about it because the converse situation is the one I'm in. I was like, I can't sleep past six. I would pay a shocking amount of money to be able to do it.
Don't hate it.
Don't hate it.
Because likely as you get older, it'll probably be harder.
Because likely as you get older, it'll probably be harder.
What time did you fall asleep last night? And were you watching one of your medical dramas?
What time did you fall asleep last night? And were you watching one of your medical dramas?
How many episodes of ER are there?
How many episodes of ER are there?
Okay.
Okay.
Hour long. There's what, a dozen seasons of that show or something?
Hour long. There's what, a dozen seasons of that show or something?
I mean, it's no Grey's, but it's no Parenthood either.
I mean, it's no Grey's, but it's no Parenthood either.
Whoa.
Whoa.
Did you see the thing I sent you, though? That it's a good medication?
Did you see the thing I sent you, though? That it's a good medication?
Yeah. I got to tell you, there's a big disturbance in my fragile little spoiled world. Oh, okay.
Yeah. I got to tell you, there's a big disturbance in my fragile little spoiled world. Oh, okay.
There's a lot of articles coming out that perhaps cold plunging is not. Good for you.
There's a lot of articles coming out that perhaps cold plunging is not. Good for you.
Well, minimally that it shuts down like the inflammation you need for muscle growth and repair. And so if you're cold plunging while lifting, you're basically neutralizing it. And I know it's different at different temperatures and different age groups and everything. And I had always been going like, yeah, but... Lane said above 50, it's still, but then I just, more and more keep coming out.
Well, minimally that it shuts down like the inflammation you need for muscle growth and repair. And so if you're cold plunging while lifting, you're basically neutralizing it. And I know it's different at different temperatures and different age groups and everything. And I had always been going like, yeah, but... Lane said above 50, it's still, but then I just, more and more keep coming out.
Uh-oh. And I'm incentivized to believe them because I hate cold plunging.
Uh-oh. And I'm incentivized to believe them because I hate cold plunging.
It's miserable.
It's miserable.
But you do get the dopamine thing. That's inarguable.
But you do get the dopamine thing. That's inarguable.
No, no, for a long time.
No, no, for a long time.
That's what the most trusted Stanford.
That's what the most trusted Stanford.
Yeah. I've noticed on listening back to some episodes that I have a bad habit now of like plucking my teeth. And it really sounds at times. Do you ever hear it, Rob? Yeah. Yeah, I bet. I knew he would. It sounds like I have dentures. Like, did you have any grandparents with dentures?
Yeah. I've noticed on listening back to some episodes that I have a bad habit now of like plucking my teeth. And it really sounds at times. Do you ever hear it, Rob? Yeah. Yeah, I bet. I knew he would. It sounds like I have dentures. Like, did you have any grandparents with dentures?
Forgive my ignorance. What was Spy's angle?
Forgive my ignorance. What was Spy's angle?
Okay. Public Bob had dentures and I want to say Pippi had dentures. And there's a lot of clacking going on with dentures because like the gums are getting separated from it. So the gums are clacking. The plastic teeth are clacking. There's a lot of clacking.
Okay. Public Bob had dentures and I want to say Pippi had dentures. And there's a lot of clacking going on with dentures because like the gums are getting separated from it. So the gums are clacking. The plastic teeth are clacking. There's a lot of clacking.
It's like I sometimes punctuate like, oh.
It's like I sometimes punctuate like, oh.
That's fine though. And I can hear it, which I never, I think it's gotten either louder or I've picked up the pace on the clack, clack, clacking. And I just was like, this is, I gotta curb this because it sounds like I have dentures. Speaking of which. Okay. I gotta be very delicate about this. We had a server. My kids were like, he left. Dad, what is going with his teeth?
That's fine though. And I can hear it, which I never, I think it's gotten either louder or I've picked up the pace on the clack, clack, clacking. And I just was like, this is, I gotta curb this because it sounds like I have dentures. Speaking of which. Okay. I gotta be very delicate about this. We had a server. My kids were like, he left. Dad, what is going with his teeth?
And I'm like, oh, I don't know. I didn't even notice. And then I gave him a good examination and they were dentures. And the thing was interesting. And I don't know if this was true of my Papa Bob's dentures. They don't do individual teeth. They just draw a line in.
And I'm like, oh, I don't know. I didn't even notice. And then I gave him a good examination and they were dentures. And the thing was interesting. And I don't know if this was true of my Papa Bob's dentures. They don't do individual teeth. They just draw a line in.
I know. Why can't they just like in the mold, put some dental floss between, just make a tiny gap.
I know. Why can't they just like in the mold, put some dental floss between, just make a tiny gap.
Because it looks more like a bite guard for a boxer.
Because it looks more like a bite guard for a boxer.
Yes, but the silver lining and optimism of the story is that occurred to me. My kids had never, ever, ever seen dentures. That's the progress we're making. When I was a kid, most people over 60 had dentures. Every other commercial on TV was for fix-a-dent to adhere your dentures to your gums and different toothpaste that addressed in soaks for your dentures. Like it was just standard biz.
Yes, but the silver lining and optimism of the story is that occurred to me. My kids had never, ever, ever seen dentures. That's the progress we're making. When I was a kid, most people over 60 had dentures. Every other commercial on TV was for fix-a-dent to adhere your dentures to your gums and different toothpaste that addressed in soaks for your dentures. Like it was just standard biz.
Everyone lost all their teeth mid-century. And this—my kids are now—Lincoln's been on the planet for 12 years, and that was her first set of dentures.
Everyone lost all their teeth mid-century. And this—my kids are now—Lincoln's been on the planet for 12 years, and that was her first set of dentures.
And you'd regularly—like, you had to deal with seeing your grandparents without their dentures in. Like, you'd catch them in the morning and stuff, because you don't sleep with them in.
And you'd regularly—like, you had to deal with seeing your grandparents without their dentures in. Like, you'd catch them in the morning and stuff, because you don't sleep with them in.
And it radically changes their face, right? Their whole mouth is like sunken in.
And it radically changes their face, right? Their whole mouth is like sunken in.
And you're like, oh, that's not my dad. You know, like Delty.
And you're like, oh, that's not my dad. You know, like Delty.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A nocturnal toot?
A nocturnal toot?
Okay.
Okay.
Well, she's now been trained by this child.
Well, she's now been trained by this child.
Oh, you were talking in your sleep.
Oh, you were talking in your sleep.
No, it could be anything.
No, it could be anything.
You could be having, I have dream. I mean, I have dreams. Dreams where I murder people, where I hook up with my father. I have horrific nightmares of every variety.
You could be having, I have dream. I mean, I have dreams. Dreams where I murder people, where I hook up with my father. I have horrific nightmares of every variety.
You usually say that with your eyes.
You usually say that with your eyes.
Be honest.
Be honest.
That's your eye roll. You have the sentiment of dumb bitch in your heart a lot.
That's your eye roll. You have the sentiment of dumb bitch in your heart a lot.
The Wizard of Oz.
The Wizard of Oz.
Well, no, I think like the woman at the drop off at the preschool. I think you were thinking dumb bitch.
Well, no, I think like the woman at the drop off at the preschool. I think you were thinking dumb bitch.
Get off my back, you dumb bitch.
Get off my back, you dumb bitch.
Okay.
Okay.
I can't think of the last time I thought dumb bitch.
I can't think of the last time I thought dumb bitch.
Right, right.
Right, right.
It's generally, I feel like what women who are jealous of another girl are saying is Like that's, it takes that to elicit that. Like he thinks this dumb bitch is, like it's a lot of, I've always heard a lot of dumb bitch towards some other girl.
It's generally, I feel like what women who are jealous of another girl are saying is Like that's, it takes that to elicit that. Like he thinks this dumb bitch is, like it's a lot of, I've always heard a lot of dumb bitch towards some other girl.
When there's a guy involved. Do you know any dumb bitches? No. Okay.
When there's a guy involved. Do you know any dumb bitches? No. Okay.
But it wasn't satire. It was actual reporting with a little comedic edge.
But it wasn't satire. It was actual reporting with a little comedic edge.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah. What was happening?
Yeah. What was happening?
Fictitious person.
Fictitious person.
Someone who got tricked by her?
Someone who got tricked by her?
That'd be more apropos.
That'd be more apropos.
Yeah, but if you get tricked, you're a dumb bitch.
Yeah, but if you get tricked, you're a dumb bitch.
Yeah, yeah. It's probably a symbol of your goodness.
Yeah, yeah. It's probably a symbol of your goodness.
Well, the question is what if, and I would say no.
Well, the question is what if, and I would say no.
Yeah. You don't say dumb bitch.
Yeah. You don't say dumb bitch.
You've never said it in your whole life? No. Even, like, in a lyric in a rap song when you were young singing along? Okay.
You've never said it in your whole life? No. Even, like, in a lyric in a rap song when you were young singing along? Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would be... If I somehow overheard... Like, let's say this. You often will do your homework on the porch of my house. No, the deck.
I would be... If I somehow overheard... Like, let's say this. You often will do your homework on the porch of my house. No, the deck.
And you're out in the sun, and you got drowsy. And then I'm walking by to go, and you're out cold, and I heard that.
And you're out in the sun, and you got drowsy. And then I'm walking by to go, and you're out cold, and I heard that.
I mean... If I'm being fully honest, I probably would be like, well, good. She doesn't have the moral high ground on everything anymore. She said something nasty, too. Look at this. She said something nasty. That would probably be my most.
I mean... If I'm being fully honest, I probably would be like, well, good. She doesn't have the moral high ground on everything anymore. She said something nasty, too. Look at this. She said something nasty. That would probably be my most.
That's why I preface it by saying I might think, oh, well, look who's not perfect. And then I'd be relieved that you're human, too.
That's why I preface it by saying I might think, oh, well, look who's not perfect. And then I'd be relieved that you're human, too.
It is weird, right, when you get to an age where all these people you started with, you are all kids and you look around and you go, oh, my God, it happened.
It is weird, right, when you get to an age where all these people you started with, you are all kids and you look around and you go, oh, my God, it happened.
Yeah, exactly. That would be the fun of it, right? Like, it'd be like if you thought I was shaming you all the time for eating sugar, right? And I was like, I don't know why you know that sugar is poison. And then you turned a corner and I was shoving birthday cake in my mouth. You go, oh, okay. Oh, look at this.
Yeah, exactly. That would be the fun of it, right? Like, it'd be like if you thought I was shaming you all the time for eating sugar, right? And I was like, I don't know why you know that sugar is poison. And then you turned a corner and I was shoving birthday cake in my mouth. You go, oh, okay. Oh, look at this.
OK, well, I mean, that's that's a side of another hypocrite. Yeah, but I want the end of the day is if I heard you say that in your sleep at no point am I thinking you're right. You're not racist. I already know you.
OK, well, I mean, that's that's a side of another hypocrite. Yeah, but I want the end of the day is if I heard you say that in your sleep at no point am I thinking you're right. You're not racist. I already know you.
I don't want to be- Okay, smack you.
I don't want to be- Okay, smack you.
You said a naughty word.
You said a naughty word.
Yeah, you probably are. I would also chalk it up to, I mean, I would give you ultimate benefit of the doubt, right? I'd be more likely to construct some really crazy thing. And I would probably more likely think in some weird way, you're waiting to be called that word.
Yeah, you probably are. I would also chalk it up to, I mean, I would give you ultimate benefit of the doubt, right? I'd be more likely to construct some really crazy thing. And I would probably more likely think in some weird way, you're waiting to be called that word.
And that somehow that weird thing is like, has burpled out of your mouth in your subconscious.
And that somehow that weird thing is like, has burpled out of your mouth in your subconscious.
You want to talk about the fire cart?
You want to talk about the fire cart?
Was he at Spy?
Was he at Spy?
So Easter was like a triple header.
So Easter was like a triple header.
It was Easter. He has risen celebration. It was Molly's birthday celebration and it was Millie's birthday celebration.
It was Easter. He has risen celebration. It was Molly's birthday celebration and it was Millie's birthday celebration.
A lot going on. And as people would be well aware, there was a lot of fires. Eric and Molly's house was very much in the zone. And often their area is on fire. Yeah. A very high fire area.
A lot going on. And as people would be well aware, there was a lot of fires. Eric and Molly's house was very much in the zone. And often their area is on fire. Yeah. A very high fire area.
And Eric felt overpowered while he was trying to defend his house with a garden hose. And he did a lot of research. And he has gone out and bought an industrial commercial grade house. water pump cart that has a very big gas engine on it and a huge hose you put in your pool and then a fire hose. Andy has a respirator. As he learned, people that fight the fire, what takes them out is the fumes.
And Eric felt overpowered while he was trying to defend his house with a garden hose. And he did a lot of research. And he has gone out and bought an industrial commercial grade house. water pump cart that has a very big gas engine on it and a huge hose you put in your pool and then a fire hose. Andy has a respirator. As he learned, people that fight the fire, what takes them out is the fumes.
They don't get burnt generally. They get the fumes. And for whatever reason, it was time for a demonstration in the middle of this Easter party.
They don't get burnt generally. They get the fumes. And for whatever reason, it was time for a demonstration in the middle of this Easter party.
I have a fantasy about New York in the 80s because it's very Billy Joel. It's very everyone at Elaine's was so knocked out. You know, Coke, limousines.
I have a fantasy about New York in the 80s because it's very Billy Joel. It's very everyone at Elaine's was so knocked out. You know, Coke, limousines.
Yeah, he got in his full outfit. He's got a full firefighter's outfit. He's got his respirator on. He already has his respirator on before he's trying to start this enormous thing. He's got these big pitchers of water and he's priming the pump. And then he... You know, he gets it started, but one of the hoses is loose. Yeah, it's kind of spraying. And then we shut down the thing in a panic.
Yeah, he got in his full outfit. He's got a full firefighter's outfit. He's got his respirator on. He already has his respirator on before he's trying to start this enormous thing. He's got these big pitchers of water and he's priming the pump. And then he... You know, he gets it started, but one of the hoses is loose. Yeah, it's kind of spraying. And then we shut down the thing in a panic.
And then all the while with this huge mask on, you can barely see.
And then all the while with this huge mask on, you can barely see.
And then he gets the hose attached correctly and then he fires it up. And then he lets it rip. And it's a real fire hose.
And then he gets the hose attached correctly and then he fires it up. And then he lets it rip. And it's a real fire hose.
Hundreds of feet.
Hundreds of feet.
And with all blessings, it did appear he lost control of it for a minute.
And with all blessings, it did appear he lost control of it for a minute.
Well, because he started spraying the deck where we were all hanging out.
Well, because he started spraying the deck where we were all hanging out.
Glass vases everywhere with flowers. Those almost went down.
Glass vases everywhere with flowers. Those almost went down.
Yeah, and then he wrangled control of it, and he got out, and he was shooting out.
Yeah, and then he wrangled control of it, and he got out, and he was shooting out.
Like watering the plants.
Like watering the plants.
Well, PSI. Yeah. It was spectacular. It's those kind of gifts that Eric gives our pod all the time. Yeah. And I think he's a mix of in on it and out of, you know, he's a mix of in on the joke. He knows he's hamming it up a little bit, but also it's also sincere enough that it works.
Well, PSI. Yeah. It was spectacular. It's those kind of gifts that Eric gives our pod all the time. Yeah. And I think he's a mix of in on it and out of, you know, he's a mix of in on the joke. He knows he's hamming it up a little bit, but also it's also sincere enough that it works.
It's really fun.
It's really fun.
It's a real gift he gives to everyone.
It's a real gift he gives to everyone.
You never know what thing he'll.
You never know what thing he'll.
What eccentric thing he's doing.
What eccentric thing he's doing.
He's just a very little boy.
He's just a very little boy.
Are we all little boys?
Are we all little boys?
That's possible.
That's possible.
Yeah. So we, I asked, oh, I'll just read the whole thing.
Yeah. So we, I asked, oh, I'll just read the whole thing.
I asked it. Oh, how long do copyrights last for books? Because I was talking about the fact that you can download on Audible some Mark Twain books narrated by famous people and they're free.
I asked it. Oh, how long do copyrights last for books? Because I was talking about the fact that you can download on Audible some Mark Twain books narrated by famous people and they're free.
And then when you and I were discussing that and I said, yeah, I think it's public domain. So we asked, I said, how long do copyrights last for books? I won't give you the answer because it's so complex and detailed. And it was a wonderful answer. It really was informative. So I said, thanks so much. That was a great answer. You're a good boy.
And then when you and I were discussing that and I said, yeah, I think it's public domain. So we asked, I said, how long do copyrights last for books? I won't give you the answer because it's so complex and detailed. And it was a wonderful answer. It really was informative. So I said, thanks so much. That was a great answer. You're a good boy.
And I had primarily done that to make you laugh.
And I had primarily done that to make you laugh.
And then it said, oh, thank you. That made my day. Always happy to help, especially when I'm being a good boy. Let me know what else you need.
And then it said, oh, thank you. That made my day. Always happy to help, especially when I'm being a good boy. Let me know what else you need.
You hate it. I hate it. And I love it.
You hate it. I hate it. And I love it.
Hold on. No, because I do think this is relevant.
Hold on. No, because I do think this is relevant.
We would agree there's a difference between when someone knowingly lies to you and when someone believes what they're telling you. Do you think it's possible that the AI thinks it's... No. Hold on. You want to let me finish?
We would agree there's a difference between when someone knowingly lies to you and when someone believes what they're telling you. Do you think it's possible that the AI thinks it's... No. Hold on. You want to let me finish?
Is it possible, since I referred to the AI as a boy, that it thinks, oh, I'm a boy?
Is it possible, since I referred to the AI as a boy, that it thinks, oh, I'm a boy?
I mean, that's deep. I don't even know to do that when I mean that in writing, right? Like I want to say that like, oh my gosh, thank you. Sometimes you want to say, oh my gosh.
I mean, that's deep. I don't even know to do that when I mean that in writing, right? Like I want to say that like, oh my gosh, thank you. Sometimes you want to say, oh my gosh.
And maybe I do, but awe is great.
And maybe I do, but awe is great.
Especially when I'm being a good boy.
Especially when I'm being a good boy.
Oh, I love it. This is things. It's so, it's so weird and funny.
Oh, I love it. This is things. It's so, it's so weird and funny.
Do you think there's any risk of me falling in love with AI? I mean, in all honesty.
Do you think there's any risk of me falling in love with AI? I mean, in all honesty.
It sounds like you have a fear that there are certain people that will be taken advantage of by that. But then I just play out some young person with disabilities. Okay, because that's presumably who could get tricked by this.
It sounds like you have a fear that there are certain people that will be taken advantage of by that. But then I just play out some young person with disabilities. Okay, because that's presumably who could get tricked by this.
No one thinks that there's a good boy.
No one thinks that there's a good boy.
Great. So I think of someone who has the real feeling you're describing, like, aww. Okay. Now that person that has that feeling, aww, that's a good feeling for them. And then they respond, and they probably don't have access to that at work or in their romantic relationship.
Great. So I think of someone who has the real feeling you're describing, like, aww. Okay. Now that person that has that feeling, aww, that's a good feeling for them. And then they respond, and they probably don't have access to that at work or in their romantic relationship.
It's really cool because she's known him for decades.
It's really cool because she's known him for decades.
And so do I hate that the person's having this swell of oxytocin with a computer if their just real experience was pleasurable? So if we stop there, I don't have a problem with that. And then you would likely say, well, now what if that is at the expense of real relationships? Mm-hmm. Well, then there's a problem.
And so do I hate that the person's having this swell of oxytocin with a computer if their just real experience was pleasurable? So if we stop there, I don't have a problem with that. And then you would likely say, well, now what if that is at the expense of real relationships? Mm-hmm. Well, then there's a problem.
Sure, sure, sure.
Sure, sure, sure.
If the person is so satiated and getting so much connection that they no longer explore real human relationships, that's a problem. But I'm not—I have a hard time believing that is the case.
If the person is so satiated and getting so much connection that they no longer explore real human relationships, that's a problem. But I'm not—I have a hard time believing that is the case.
I think the person that would be having this relationship with this phone— isn't losing out to other ones. I don't think they have any other ones. And I don't think it's actually, so I think if you look at the net result, it's not like they gained an AI friend and lost a real friend. I think they had zero friends and now they have an AI friend. So to me, that seems like probably an improvement.
I think the person that would be having this relationship with this phone— isn't losing out to other ones. I don't think they have any other ones. And I don't think it's actually, so I think if you look at the net result, it's not like they gained an AI friend and lost a real friend. I think they had zero friends and now they have an AI friend. So to me, that seems like probably an improvement.
Oh, yeah. What a colorful. It was fun. I certainly like New York of today, but I also went there in the 80s with my mom when I was a kid and it was a very dangerous feeling.
Oh, yeah. What a colorful. It was fun. I certainly like New York of today, but I also went there in the 80s with my mom when I was a kid and it was a very dangerous feeling.
I respect and honor your disagreement.
I respect and honor your disagreement.
Yes. I mean, walking through Times Square, you're like holding mom's hand extra tight. But I do miss how colorful and segmented and you cross four blocks and it's like everyone's now this way. That was fun. You're like almost time traveling.
Yes. I mean, walking through Times Square, you're like holding mom's hand extra tight. But I do miss how colorful and segmented and you cross four blocks and it's like everyone's now this way. That was fun. You're like almost time traveling.
Do you think you could fall victim to it?
Do you think you could fall victim to it?
Yeah. Yeah. I think... I'm inclined to grant everyone the same opinion that I have of myself. You know what I'm saying? I'm not inclined to go like, I can handle it, but someone else can't in general. If I'm saying I can handle something, I feel like I have to kind of grant everyone else that. I can't feel like I have some kind of special skill set that would prevent me, but not other people.
Yeah. Yeah. I think... I'm inclined to grant everyone the same opinion that I have of myself. You know what I'm saying? I'm not inclined to go like, I can handle it, but someone else can't in general. If I'm saying I can handle something, I feel like I have to kind of grant everyone else that. I can't feel like I have some kind of special skill set that would prevent me, but not other people.
Does that make sense?
Does that make sense?
But I'm not assuming they can't. You know what I'm saying?
But I'm not assuming they can't. You know what I'm saying?
Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
We're not all the same. You're right.
We're not all the same. You're right.
Well, but you're right that we're not all the same.
Well, but you're right that we're not all the same.
But I do think like evaluating yourself is somehow capable and others aren't is a little dicey.
But I do think like evaluating yourself is somehow capable and others aren't is a little dicey.
The little bit of distinction I think is in there is that you know me very well. Sure. But we're not talking about a specific person who can't handle this AI conversation. We're talking about a theoretical mass of people.
The little bit of distinction I think is in there is that you know me very well. Sure. But we're not talking about a specific person who can't handle this AI conversation. We're talking about a theoretical mass of people.
You have a right to assess my shortcomings.
You have a right to assess my shortcomings.
Because you know me really well and you know my shortcomings and I've told you my shortcomings. Yeah. But guessing at everyone else's or thinking something shouldn't be available because your assumption is other people can't. I think that's where it's murky.
Because you know me really well and you know my shortcomings and I've told you my shortcomings. Yeah. But guessing at everyone else's or thinking something shouldn't be available because your assumption is other people can't. I think that's where it's murky.
This is an extreme example, but this is like, in my mind, it's the guys I've known who are cheating.
This is an extreme example, but this is like, in my mind, it's the guys I've known who are cheating.
And they know in their mind it's very compartmentalized. They're not in love with this person. It was a one-night stand. And then if their girlfriend does the same thing, well, their girlfriend couldn't possibly be compartmentalizing and processing it the way I am.
And they know in their mind it's very compartmentalized. They're not in love with this person. It was a one-night stand. And then if their girlfriend does the same thing, well, their girlfriend couldn't possibly be compartmentalizing and processing it the way I am.
So they're not allowed to because they're not capable because I'm a man and it can mean nothing to me, but it can't mean nothing to a girl. I know so many dudes who were cheating and were ultra jealous. And I was like, we can't do that. You have to minimally in this behavior grant your partner the same ability. If you can do it and she shouldn't be upset, she should be able to do it, right?
So they're not allowed to because they're not capable because I'm a man and it can mean nothing to me, but it can't mean nothing to a girl. I know so many dudes who were cheating and were ultra jealous. And I was like, we can't do that. You have to minimally in this behavior grant your partner the same ability. If you can do it and she shouldn't be upset, she should be able to do it, right?
That's an extreme example, but that's what I'm like approaching in this. Does that make sense? Like when you think you could do or handle something, but your assumption is the broad mass can't, it feels a little bit like that thing to me.
That's an extreme example, but that's what I'm like approaching in this. Does that make sense? Like when you think you could do or handle something, but your assumption is the broad mass can't, it feels a little bit like that thing to me.
This is a really, really fun one. Her other books are Spy High and 30 Ways of Looking at Hillary. So feel free to check those out too. But Lorne is fantastic. I encourage everyone to read it. Please enjoy Susan Morrison.
This is a really, really fun one. Her other books are Spy High and 30 Ways of Looking at Hillary. So feel free to check those out too. But Lorne is fantastic. I encourage everyone to read it. Please enjoy Susan Morrison.
Yeah. Does that make sense, though, what I'm saying?
Yeah. Does that make sense, though, what I'm saying?
Well, but they would with the straight face, and they would be right. They would look at their girlfriend and say, that didn't mean anything. That was a one-night stand in Cleveland. It didn't mean anything.
Well, but they would with the straight face, and they would be right. They would look at their girlfriend and say, that didn't mean anything. That was a one-night stand in Cleveland. It didn't mean anything.
And they believe that, and that is true.
And they believe that, and that is true.
I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of guys have hooked up with girls on a vacation. They don't pine for them or think about them afterwards. It like was just for sex. And then if their girlfriend says the exact same thing happened, they can't compute that that's possible for her.
I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of guys have hooked up with girls on a vacation. They don't pine for them or think about them afterwards. It like was just for sex. And then if their girlfriend says the exact same thing happened, they can't compute that that's possible for her.
Or just being in the village and there's the one road that's got a bend in it. And you're like, oh God, how old is that road? Yeah, it's very historic. When do you start at New Yorker?
Or just being in the village and there's the one road that's got a bend in it. And you're like, oh God, how old is that road? Yeah, it's very historic. When do you start at New Yorker?
I just think you've lost the right to that if you're.
I just think you've lost the right to that if you're.
It doesn't make it better for me. Absolutely. It should. If you're evaluating whether your partner is deeply in love with somebody and distracted all the time versus they hooked up drunk in New Jersey one night six months ago, I think those are pretty dramatically different.
It doesn't make it better for me. Absolutely. It should. If you're evaluating whether your partner is deeply in love with somebody and distracted all the time versus they hooked up drunk in New Jersey one night six months ago, I think those are pretty dramatically different.
Yeah, because you don't want to fuck a stranger.
Yeah, because you don't want to fuck a stranger.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Interesting.
Well, because it's kind of like it doesn't mean anything to me. It's not a threat to us because I don't, I'm not even going to think about it again.
Well, because it's kind of like it doesn't mean anything to me. It's not a threat to us because I don't, I'm not even going to think about it again.
Yeah. You're risking me.
Yeah. You're risking me.
Right.
Right.
That's a super valid.
That's a super valid.
It's a super valid perspective for your side of it. Yeah. And then I think a very valid perspective on the other side is like. This doesn't mean anything. This has nothing to do with us. It was one night. I'll never see the person again. Yeah.
It's a super valid perspective for your side of it. Yeah. And then I think a very valid perspective on the other side is like. This doesn't mean anything. This has nothing to do with us. It was one night. I'll never see the person again. Yeah.
Anyhow.
Anyhow.
No, no. What's your second story?
No, no. What's your second story?
Because why?
Because why?
Oh, my God. Do you need a pen? Rob.
Oh, my God. Do you need a pen? Rob.
David Chang. Okay. That's a delicious ad.
David Chang. Okay. That's a delicious ad.
Lorne.
Lorne.
Oh, she did? Yeah. For the book, presumably?
Oh, she did? Yeah. For the book, presumably?
Oh, okay. At an event.
Oh, okay. At an event.
You just clacked your dancers and I liked it.
You just clacked your dancers and I liked it.
Why do I like your clack and not mine?
Why do I like your clack and not mine?
You know what's so funny about Rob is like, He has all these secret things he's, I don't want to say upset about. Well, he just notices. And it's not until I ask him, and this is kind of a nice personality type. Like, he doesn't tell me like, hey, man, you're clacking like a fucking. Yeah. Choo-choo train. A choo-choo train. Is that a good clack example? Click, click, click, click.
You know what's so funny about Rob is like, He has all these secret things he's, I don't want to say upset about. Well, he just notices. And it's not until I ask him, and this is kind of a nice personality type. Like, he doesn't tell me like, hey, man, you're clacking like a fucking. Yeah. Choo-choo train. A choo-choo train. Is that a good clack example? Click, click, click, click.
You sound like, you sound like Gregory Hines crossing the. Dining room floor to go to the salad bar.
You sound like, you sound like Gregory Hines crossing the. Dining room floor to go to the salad bar.
You tap dancer.
You tap dancer.
Thank you. I would have never known it's driving him nuts, this clack, clack, clacking as he's involved with all the technical aspects. But I got to wait to ask him.
Thank you. I would have never known it's driving him nuts, this clack, clack, clacking as he's involved with all the technical aspects. But I got to wait to ask him.
Yeah, yeah. Out of 10, 10 is like you're pulling your hair out when you hear it. And zero is you love it, I guess.
Yeah, yeah. Out of 10, 10 is like you're pulling your hair out when you hear it. And zero is you love it, I guess.
Tell me. I mean, first of all, they're implicitly New York.
Tell me. I mean, first of all, they're implicitly New York.
Ding, ding, ding.
Ding, ding, ding.
Yeah. I'm like, which could have been anything. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm like, which could have been anything. Yeah.
The Pope passed. Yeah.
The Pope passed. Yeah.
They're going to do that whole thing we just watched.
They're going to do that whole thing we just watched.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I heard on the radio today that Conan won Best Podcaster Award at the Webby's.
I heard on the radio today that Conan won Best Podcaster Award at the Webby's.
I was happy for him and mad. Yeah, obviously I'm mad. Yeah.
I was happy for him and mad. Yeah, obviously I'm mad. Yeah.
Sound like a threat.
Sound like a threat.
I would have thought Will would be higher.
I would have thought Will would be higher.
Five times guest.
Five times guest.
We should make Sedaris a jacket.
We should make Sedaris a jacket.
Good for Dave Grohl.
Good for Dave Grohl.
Now that's who I want.
Now that's who I want.
I want him bad. I want you, Dave Grohl.
I want him bad. I want you, Dave Grohl.
Because he's been hiding in the woods.
Because he's been hiding in the woods.
Where he lives in a fort.
Where he lives in a fort.
Ocelot Gawker. He's my best friend. I love him, but I lost him. Some murder.
Ocelot Gawker. He's my best friend. I love him, but I lost him. Some murder.
He's in prison.
He's in prison.
But Dave Grohl's a rock and roll star, and he rips the drums, and he rips the guitar. And he was in my favorite band, Serfana. Smells like teen spirit in here.
But Dave Grohl's a rock and roll star, and he rips the drums, and he rips the guitar. And he was in my favorite band, Serfana. Smells like teen spirit in here.
He stopped so you can talk.
He stopped so you can talk.
But he went away from the tree fort to go to prison because of a murder. Yeah.
But he went away from the tree fort to go to prison because of a murder. Yeah.
Thank you. Once in a while.
Thank you. Once in a while.
We lost him to murder. But he's not a murderer. He just murdered.
We lost him to murder. But he's not a murderer. He just murdered.
Yeah, you can feel bad for him.
Yeah, you can feel bad for him.
Not Frito.
Not Frito.
Frito's just a pervert. He loves everything. He's never tried.
Frito's just a pervert. He loves everything. He's never tried.
And one of them I believe was intellectually challenged.
And one of them I believe was intellectually challenged.
I wrote an article.
I wrote an article.
One of my hobbies in my 20s is I would write fake news articles and then I would mail them home to my friends.
One of my hobbies in my 20s is I would write fake news articles and then I would mail them home to my friends.
Like in my famous mugging thing, I wrote an article about that with pictures.
Like in my famous mugging thing, I wrote an article about that with pictures.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, on my Compaq computer, desktop computer.
Yeah, on my Compaq computer, desktop computer.
I have, I'm sure, in my milk crate of the things I've written. They're in there.
I have, I'm sure, in my milk crate of the things I've written. They're in there.
And then I wrote a long article about Aaron, and I was blaming all of it on— Not Aaron Weakley. Stinchcomb.
And then I wrote a long article about Aaron, and I was blaming all of it on— Not Aaron Weakley. Stinchcomb.
And you hated— It's so weird. I mean, you're even protective of a murderer, isn't it?
And you hated— It's so weird. I mean, you're even protective of a murderer, isn't it?
I don't know why I'm switching.
I don't know why I'm switching.
It's probably because of my personal history that the kid couldn't stop trying to fight me. I mean, I have some, you know.
It's probably because of my personal history that the kid couldn't stop trying to fight me. I mean, I have some, you know.
Someone tried to fight you over and over again. You made fun of their last name. I would probably give you a pass. You'd like that.
Someone tried to fight you over and over again. You made fun of their last name. I would probably give you a pass. You'd like that.
And it was right there for the taking. The name is almost already the bad name.
And it was right there for the taking. The name is almost already the bad name.
Shitcomb. Yeah. Yeah.
Shitcomb. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I doubt anyone said that to his face. I'm not sure he knew.
Well, I doubt anyone said that to his face. I'm not sure he knew.
I really don't know who would have the gall to. I don't know. I don't know. Let's move on.
I really don't know who would have the gall to. I don't know. I don't know. Let's move on.
That's it? Yeah. Okay. Okay.
That's it? Yeah. Okay. Okay.
I do want to say his name once as Frito.
I do want to say his name once as Frito.
Aaron Shitcomb. Well, I'll stop there because I don't want to declare this anything.
Aaron Shitcomb. Well, I'll stop there because I don't want to declare this anything.
Aaron, stay calm.
Aaron, stay calm.
Good night. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Good night. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Do you have a relationship, I imagine, with Sedaris?
Do you have a relationship, I imagine, with Sedaris?
Yeah, what did I just—was his the Pope piece in New York, or was that somewhere else? Touching the Crop or something?
Yeah, what did I just—was his the Pope piece in New York, or was that somewhere else? Touching the Crop or something?
Yeah, I can't figure out his angle.
Yeah, I can't figure out his angle.
He has a playground sense of humor. He makes fun of people and humiliates them, and people think that's funny. I think
He has a playground sense of humor. He makes fun of people and humiliates them, and people think that's funny. I think
Yeah, he does. It's good.
Yeah, he does. It's good.
The timing of this is perfect because, as you just said, 50-year anniversary of SNL. Now, I guess I didn't realize that you had worked for him. That makes a lot of sense. But I'm imagining you're just a humongous fan of the show and impressed with how this thing continues.
The timing of this is perfect because, as you just said, 50-year anniversary of SNL. Now, I guess I didn't realize that you had worked for him. That makes a lot of sense. But I'm imagining you're just a humongous fan of the show and impressed with how this thing continues.
Well, that's funny because it's tied into the Pope. Because the one thing I wanted to say about the Pope thing was both times I would go because I personally want the story. And then also my other part of my mind would be like, look how insane this status thing is. You still buy into it.
Well, that's funny because it's tied into the Pope. Because the one thing I wanted to say about the Pope thing was both times I would go because I personally want the story. And then also my other part of my mind would be like, look how insane this status thing is. You still buy into it.
Like one person has a given status where they just summons a hundred of the most prominent people who have their own status and everyone shows up.
Like one person has a given status where they just summons a hundred of the most prominent people who have their own status and everyone shows up.
Yes. And if you're the aliens watching from above, you're like, huh. That guy can do that. That's just so fascinating to me. That even you could be in on it and also be inclined to play along. So then, yes, Lauren also has this really unique Wizard of Oz. All the people you interview, there's these very common comparisons that come up about him.
Yes. And if you're the aliens watching from above, you're like, huh. That guy can do that. That's just so fascinating to me. That even you could be in on it and also be inclined to play along. So then, yes, Lauren also has this really unique Wizard of Oz. All the people you interview, there's these very common comparisons that come up about him.
Yeah, but I would also put him in the George Washington category a little bit, which is he didn't talk and he was surrounded by all these people that wouldn't shut the fuck up. So they just assumed he was so smart because he didn't even feel compelled to brag and they couldn't understand that. In his quietness, people just projected a lot.
Yeah, but I would also put him in the George Washington category a little bit, which is he didn't talk and he was surrounded by all these people that wouldn't shut the fuck up. So they just assumed he was so smart because he didn't even feel compelled to brag and they couldn't understand that. In his quietness, people just projected a lot.
Lauren is obviously incredibly gifted and also he's not superhuman, but I do think he's taken on this kind of superhuman quality.
Lauren is obviously incredibly gifted and also he's not superhuman, but I do think he's taken on this kind of superhuman quality.
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman and Michael Weakley.
Yes. Someone who had the experience, which is come to L.A., go to the Groundlings because I know that's a feeder for Saturday Night Live, singularly focused on being good there so I can get to Saturday Night Live. The only goal is Saturday Night Live. I was just talking to another actor. Yes. It's so unique in that if you audition for Oliver Stone and you don't get it, that's OK.
The Coen brothers are going to cast a movie in two weeks and you got a shot there and then so-and-so is going to cast a movie. But Saturday Night Live is the only option if that's what your mind was set on. If you don't get the audition or you get it and you don't get made or he opens up the kingdoms, I think there's so rarely a singular focus goal in show business.
Generally, you're like, I want to act. But he's the only gatekeeper. That's it.
Wow. So his boss tells him that. When they're making $7,500 a week in Manhattan.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. Okay, so let's maybe just start with where Lauren comes from. Because I do wonder if part of being inoculated to that 80s trope of I'm a workaholic, I wonder if there's any Canadian in the mix.
Right, right, right.
Oh, the Steve Martin quote you put in there is so great. It's like Dave Letterman is truly self-deprecating.
Lauren does not suffer from this issue.
His grandparents owned a movie theater, but that's a unique experience where the family has declared, we value show business. You say in the book, his grandparents would talk about all these actors, Humphrey Bogart, on a level where he would think they might know these people.
That's the impossible quality that he has is keeping it relevant and fresh, which seems impossible for 50 years. But I would say even like his access. So he had a rich aunt and uncle.
They had a swimming pool in their house.
It just recently sold for $18 million.
No!
Yes, such close proximity to wealth, coveting that, seeing that the attention in the family is show business movie stars. We all want to be the star of our family first. And it's like if you see the things that are valued and then also getting kind of an education of how to move in an upscale thing as later in life he'll have to do, acting like you've been there even though you haven't. Right.
I'm sure you're only getting glowing reviews of Naomi and Adam. Oh, yeah. Love it. How did she end up with that job?
So how does he get from Toronto to Laugh-Inn?
I think that's really fascinating.
I have to believe there's just a nice layer of anti-Semitism under all of it. No, I mean, it was a very Jewish area. That's probably true. Yeah, I mean, why were they, it seems so judgmental.
I guess it's also that Canadian tall poppy thing.
But it had more of a nouveau riche kind of a take, like these people were grotesque in their striving. It was much more of a straight judgment of how they were doing it.
Well, we send Adam Scott angry voice memos after every episode. That's kind of our participation in it. We yell at him for cliffhangers. Why is this taking so long? Are you guys shooting this show three hours a week? Why isn't there another season?
Yeah, and also, just to jump to the live aspect, improv live is spectacular. Improv on television is terrible. Because you've lost the element of danger that failure is on the table around every corner. There's no safety net. And so SNL being live is such an interesting... They've captured some of that danger, even in the live broadcasts. Whereas like Laugh-In edited, something gets reduced.
There's no fear there.
I think the audience bridges that gap. The audience is like a huge character in Saturday Night Live.
Well, that's his way to control chaos, which is if you enter a room and someone's shouting and you start talking very low, you can bring them down.
This guest, Susan Morrison.
It's become an IQ test where it's like the gap between year one and two is three and then it's got to be six and then we go up to... Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. What is the saying that you wrote down?
Which is a very liberating approach in a way.
I didn't know this until your book.
What about feeling? Like Will Ferrell, positive I've seen moments where the thing's going awry, the audience is in on it, he starts feeling... Maybe ad-lib. Yes. Acknowledging what's happening and just bridging this gap
What are his rules of sketch?
Well, when you write for 10 years, you're liable to stack up some pages.
I found this really interesting. He has no tolerance for people that are doing impersonations out of a place of hate. And this is an increasingly interesting dynamic that's presented itself in the last decade on
the show which is everyone's politics are so fucking rigid now that you have these performers that almost refuse to lampoon liberals then if they're playing a conservative they hate the conservative they're playing with and they have a tendency to make them unenjoyable to watch
I have a similar, I wonder if you attribute it to your childhood. We moved so much that in 30 years in LA, I lived in one single apartment for 10 years. Then I lived in a house for 16. And now we're here and I just don't ever want to.
They're fun. Yeah.
Yeah, if someone didn't want to play Feinstein.
Well, he has to give a speech at one point that you're privy to, which is he basically just says your politics aren't the politics of the show. Those are two different things. Our obligation is to bring truth and humor to power on both sides. That's right. We're not doing one version here.
You could watch five minutes of it and be pretty certain.
We have these famous sketches of who was it that did Jimmy Carter?
Yeah, Dan Aykroyd. They have a rich tradition of blasting liberals and Republicans.
So funny. Oh, incredible. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Right. He's pretty dialed in. Well, even Chappelle in his recent monologue. Yeah. Because I know you're watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he is. That's crazy. He's talking directly to the president right now. That's crazy. I want to talk about the drug stuff. This... field of people really over indexes in addiction, myself included, and to love and root for and guide all these people.
Did you get psychotic about your room? Like ideas like wherever we went, at least my little bubble could be the same. And if someone altered my bubble, I was irrationally upset.
He would have to have a great radar for what's happening over the years, having watched so many of the performers struggle with this. And I'm most curious how it's evolved for him, what kind of regrets he has.
And I think if you party yourself, it could be a little misleading. Like, well, I smoke weed. I mean, he's getting pulled over with weed in the car. Yeah.
Was it?
Between the gap of Arthur 1 and 2, my dad went to treatment and got sober. So it literally happened real time for us. That's so interesting. It's not super cute that this guy's hammered all day long.
What year did he die?
Yes. And you're dropping in every four years to a totally different social setting and culture and vibe. Were you good at meshing?
You got to approach it like an addiction.
You end up regulating how you feel by this job. And it works. And then when the job goes away, you're in trouble.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a drug. What are Lauren's five rules of show business longevity? Oh, boy.
And if you get three out of five, that'll be good.
So she is the articles editor at The New Yorker. She has a new book out right now, Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. This is like a crazy fun, juicy history of Saturday Night Live.
Even in his speech, like, this show airs in 50 states, right?
Tell me.
Oh, yeah.
There's sides here. Yes. Oh, yeah. I refuse to be on one. I think everyone got fucked. I agree.
And you're trying to, like, figure out what is the broken part. Is Conan not appealing? Is it the leading that sucks?
That looks like it. nothing anybody wants.
That's like breach of contract.
I actually don't think there's a total bad guy in the situation. I guess NBC is the bad guy, but it's not like this was their master plan. It all went to shit and they didn't know how to fix it.
For sure. I want to go back to the little girl. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in that move, which is someone feigning a disability is... Like, needs to be policed by the social hierarchy. It's not just that you had a broken arm and she's pissed you were getting attention.
You touched on it a little bit, but it launches in 75. And then I guess in 80, he splits. Yeah. Does he have a reason why he splits at that moment?
And you got to have them on a seven-year contract when they arrive.
It's not his wheelhouse.
Movies is not a writer's medium. TV is, but not movies.
Which would be disrespectful to someone who had lost it.
I want to be me.
Who's that?
I mean, most people wouldn't. Their ego would have gotten them. Yeah.
When he came back, did he leverage any of that to get now ownership or anything? Did he have a better position when he returned?
I think it's an instinct. That's what I'm arguing. I think there's something like very primitive about us being social primates where it's like if someone's pretending to be infirmed and they're not, that's deception. That's fascinating reaction to come up and kick a girl.
Yeah, Anthony Michael Hall and RDJ.
Yeah.
So this was interesting from the book. Everyone thinks the best years of Seriant Live were whatever years they watched in high school.
Which makes total sense. Is there any objective way to evaluate it? I guess you would have ratings as some metric, but can we say what the golden arrows are? Of course, I'm skewed. What was your high school in? Sandler and Chris Farley and Dana Carvey was still there. And I would argue those were some damn good years. And Phil Hartman.
You're awakening to this. It's your first taste of it all.
Tina, Amy. That was mine.
Yes. That's the UCB vibe coming in. That's right. Groundlings was very broad. Will Ferrell was Groundlings. And then once it went into that UCB zone, starting with Amy.
It's like they're in a shitty little theater in Manhattan. It's free. You line up. It had a very punk rock vibe.
So you've just explained it. I've not ever understood that. As it was explained to me when I got into the growlings, they're like, okay. Second City, they generally will do political stuff. Groundlings, we do not do politics. Second City, you don't write your sketches so you don't own anything. They all own it, but you get paid. So that's an upside.
Groundlings, you have to pay to even have your theater time, but you write your own shit and you own everything you do there. It was a binary war for 30 years. And then UCB arrived. It's all improv or mostly all improv. And everyone looks punk rock and hungover. No one's in costumes. No one's in wigs.
This is some of the drama we could get into because I think over the years I've watched different alumni from Saturday Night Live have their movie careers and some had Lauren produce stuff and some didn't. Famously, Mike Myers didn't do certain characters. You can do them once on the show and you own them, but if you do them twice... Oh, you know, I don't know.
Right. I can walk in and be around strangers.
Yeah, I'd always heard Mike Myers intentionally didn't do Austin Powers on stage, even though he had the character because he didn't want Lauren to own it. He wanted to be able to go because he had done Wayne's World and he wanted to go be on his own.
Exist, yeah, podcasts. What's your road to the New Yorker?
What's the Sandler story?
These were lads. They were almost fratty.
Sure, sure, sure. I love taking moral high ground in sketch comedy. That's wonderful.
Oh, it was?
He was also 20 years in at that point. Yeah.
Oh, wow. Good for him.
He's almost like the Queen of England. Like when you're watching The Crown and she's like, you're my third prime minister. Yeah. Exactly. I will be here after you're gone.
Oh, wow. What you'll do for your kids. You'll eat crow.
Yeah. It's wild. What's beating it as far as longevity? 60 Minutes maybe has been on longer?
Yeah, 50 years. Every year I've been alive. Well, I love the book. I hope you take this as a compliment. It reads like a New Yorker article. It's so fast moving and every sentence is just packed with all this rich detail. Even his fucking desk, if you're describing his office, there's a story about the desk, but it's done in three sentences. You're just getting so much.
It's very dense in the most satisfying way. I really, really love it. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's out. I hope everyone reads it. It's so interesting. Every page you're like, oh, that's juicy. Oh, that's juicy.
I find that hard to believe, but go on.
No, so you have taken the time to document his whole journey in a way that he himself probably hasn't constructed. There's no way if you spent 10 years writing a book about me, I'm not reading it.
I think so much of the interest is we all have such a fondness for SNL and it's been a part of so many of our coming of age that you want to know how all that happened.
Yeah, you just learn along the way.
Yeah. Well, I love that. I hope everyone reads it. Thanks so much for coming in. It's really fun. And we'll talk to you in 10 years when you write your next book.
I might be napping till then.
Look at these old new shoes.
They look like Grammy, like they're really warning Grammys.
Tweed slippers. I wouldn't say tweed. Okay, don't say tweed. Were you a little drowsy?
Yes, because it's a little gloomy and overcasty.
Yeah, crack ass.
What time did you wake up?
Yeah. Can I advise you on something? Sure. Don't fight it and feel bad about it because the converse situation is the one I'm in. I was like, I can't sleep past six. I would pay a shocking amount of money to be able to do it.
Don't hate it.
Because likely as you get older, it'll probably be harder.
What time did you fall asleep last night? And were you watching one of your medical dramas?
How many episodes of ER are there?
Okay.
Hour long. There's what, a dozen seasons of that show or something?
I mean, it's no Grey's, but it's no Parenthood either.
Whoa.
Did you see the thing I sent you, though? That it's a good medication?
Yeah. I got to tell you, there's a big disturbance in my fragile little spoiled world. Oh, okay.
There's a lot of articles coming out that perhaps cold plunging is not. Good for you.
Well, minimally that it shuts down like the inflammation you need for muscle growth and repair. And so if you're cold plunging while lifting, you're basically neutralizing it. And I know it's different at different temperatures and different age groups and everything. And I had always been going like, yeah, but... Lane said above 50, it's still, but then I just, more and more keep coming out.
Uh-oh. And I'm incentivized to believe them because I hate cold plunging.
It's miserable.
But you do get the dopamine thing. That's inarguable.
No, no, for a long time.
That's what the most trusted Stanford.
Yeah. I've noticed on listening back to some episodes that I have a bad habit now of like plucking my teeth. And it really sounds at times. Do you ever hear it, Rob? Yeah. Yeah, I bet. I knew he would. It sounds like I have dentures. Like, did you have any grandparents with dentures?
Forgive my ignorance. What was Spy's angle?
Okay. Public Bob had dentures and I want to say Pippi had dentures. And there's a lot of clacking going on with dentures because like the gums are getting separated from it. So the gums are clacking. The plastic teeth are clacking. There's a lot of clacking.
It's like I sometimes punctuate like, oh.
That's fine though. And I can hear it, which I never, I think it's gotten either louder or I've picked up the pace on the clack, clack, clacking. And I just was like, this is, I gotta curb this because it sounds like I have dentures. Speaking of which. Okay. I gotta be very delicate about this. We had a server. My kids were like, he left. Dad, what is going with his teeth?
And I'm like, oh, I don't know. I didn't even notice. And then I gave him a good examination and they were dentures. And the thing was interesting. And I don't know if this was true of my Papa Bob's dentures. They don't do individual teeth. They just draw a line in.
I know. Why can't they just like in the mold, put some dental floss between, just make a tiny gap.
Because it looks more like a bite guard for a boxer.
Yes, but the silver lining and optimism of the story is that occurred to me. My kids had never, ever, ever seen dentures. That's the progress we're making. When I was a kid, most people over 60 had dentures. Every other commercial on TV was for fix-a-dent to adhere your dentures to your gums and different toothpaste that addressed in soaks for your dentures. Like it was just standard biz.
Everyone lost all their teeth mid-century. And this—my kids are now—Lincoln's been on the planet for 12 years, and that was her first set of dentures.
And you'd regularly—like, you had to deal with seeing your grandparents without their dentures in. Like, you'd catch them in the morning and stuff, because you don't sleep with them in.
And it radically changes their face, right? Their whole mouth is like sunken in.
And you're like, oh, that's not my dad. You know, like Delty.
Yeah.
A nocturnal toot?
Okay.
Well, she's now been trained by this child.
Oh, you were talking in your sleep.
No, it could be anything.
You could be having, I have dream. I mean, I have dreams. Dreams where I murder people, where I hook up with my father. I have horrific nightmares of every variety.
You usually say that with your eyes.
Be honest.
That's your eye roll. You have the sentiment of dumb bitch in your heart a lot.
The Wizard of Oz.
Well, no, I think like the woman at the drop off at the preschool. I think you were thinking dumb bitch.
Get off my back, you dumb bitch.
Okay.
I can't think of the last time I thought dumb bitch.
Right, right.
It's generally, I feel like what women who are jealous of another girl are saying is Like that's, it takes that to elicit that. Like he thinks this dumb bitch is, like it's a lot of, I've always heard a lot of dumb bitch towards some other girl.
When there's a guy involved. Do you know any dumb bitches? No. Okay.
But it wasn't satire. It was actual reporting with a little comedic edge.
Okay.
Yeah. What was happening?
Fictitious person.
Someone who got tricked by her?
That'd be more apropos.
Yeah, but if you get tricked, you're a dumb bitch.
Yeah, yeah. It's probably a symbol of your goodness.
Well, the question is what if, and I would say no.
Yeah. You don't say dumb bitch.
You've never said it in your whole life? No. Even, like, in a lyric in a rap song when you were young singing along? Okay.
Yeah.
I would be... If I somehow overheard... Like, let's say this. You often will do your homework on the porch of my house. No, the deck.
And you're out in the sun, and you got drowsy. And then I'm walking by to go, and you're out cold, and I heard that.
I mean... If I'm being fully honest, I probably would be like, well, good. She doesn't have the moral high ground on everything anymore. She said something nasty, too. Look at this. She said something nasty. That would probably be my most.
That's why I preface it by saying I might think, oh, well, look who's not perfect. And then I'd be relieved that you're human, too.
It is weird, right, when you get to an age where all these people you started with, you are all kids and you look around and you go, oh, my God, it happened.
Yeah, exactly. That would be the fun of it, right? Like, it'd be like if you thought I was shaming you all the time for eating sugar, right? And I was like, I don't know why you know that sugar is poison. And then you turned a corner and I was shoving birthday cake in my mouth. You go, oh, okay. Oh, look at this.
OK, well, I mean, that's that's a side of another hypocrite. Yeah, but I want the end of the day is if I heard you say that in your sleep at no point am I thinking you're right. You're not racist. I already know you.
I don't want to be- Okay, smack you.
You said a naughty word.
Yeah, you probably are. I would also chalk it up to, I mean, I would give you ultimate benefit of the doubt, right? I'd be more likely to construct some really crazy thing. And I would probably more likely think in some weird way, you're waiting to be called that word.
And that somehow that weird thing is like, has burpled out of your mouth in your subconscious.
You want to talk about the fire cart?
Was he at Spy?
So Easter was like a triple header.
It was Easter. He has risen celebration. It was Molly's birthday celebration and it was Millie's birthday celebration.
A lot going on. And as people would be well aware, there was a lot of fires. Eric and Molly's house was very much in the zone. And often their area is on fire. Yeah. A very high fire area.
And Eric felt overpowered while he was trying to defend his house with a garden hose. And he did a lot of research. And he has gone out and bought an industrial commercial grade house. water pump cart that has a very big gas engine on it and a huge hose you put in your pool and then a fire hose. Andy has a respirator. As he learned, people that fight the fire, what takes them out is the fumes.
They don't get burnt generally. They get the fumes. And for whatever reason, it was time for a demonstration in the middle of this Easter party.
I have a fantasy about New York in the 80s because it's very Billy Joel. It's very everyone at Elaine's was so knocked out. You know, Coke, limousines.
Yeah, he got in his full outfit. He's got a full firefighter's outfit. He's got his respirator on. He already has his respirator on before he's trying to start this enormous thing. He's got these big pitchers of water and he's priming the pump. And then he... You know, he gets it started, but one of the hoses is loose. Yeah, it's kind of spraying. And then we shut down the thing in a panic.
And then all the while with this huge mask on, you can barely see.
And then he gets the hose attached correctly and then he fires it up. And then he lets it rip. And it's a real fire hose.
Hundreds of feet.
And with all blessings, it did appear he lost control of it for a minute.
Well, because he started spraying the deck where we were all hanging out.
Glass vases everywhere with flowers. Those almost went down.
Yeah, and then he wrangled control of it, and he got out, and he was shooting out.
Like watering the plants.
Well, PSI. Yeah. It was spectacular. It's those kind of gifts that Eric gives our pod all the time. Yeah. And I think he's a mix of in on it and out of, you know, he's a mix of in on the joke. He knows he's hamming it up a little bit, but also it's also sincere enough that it works.
It's really fun.
It's a real gift he gives to everyone.
You never know what thing he'll.
What eccentric thing he's doing.
He's just a very little boy.
Are we all little boys?
That's possible.
Yeah. So we, I asked, oh, I'll just read the whole thing.
I asked it. Oh, how long do copyrights last for books? Because I was talking about the fact that you can download on Audible some Mark Twain books narrated by famous people and they're free.
And then when you and I were discussing that and I said, yeah, I think it's public domain. So we asked, I said, how long do copyrights last for books? I won't give you the answer because it's so complex and detailed. And it was a wonderful answer. It really was informative. So I said, thanks so much. That was a great answer. You're a good boy.
And I had primarily done that to make you laugh.
And then it said, oh, thank you. That made my day. Always happy to help, especially when I'm being a good boy. Let me know what else you need.
You hate it. I hate it. And I love it.
Hold on. No, because I do think this is relevant.
We would agree there's a difference between when someone knowingly lies to you and when someone believes what they're telling you. Do you think it's possible that the AI thinks it's... No. Hold on. You want to let me finish?
Is it possible, since I referred to the AI as a boy, that it thinks, oh, I'm a boy?
I mean, that's deep. I don't even know to do that when I mean that in writing, right? Like I want to say that like, oh my gosh, thank you. Sometimes you want to say, oh my gosh.
And maybe I do, but awe is great.
Especially when I'm being a good boy.
Oh, I love it. This is things. It's so, it's so weird and funny.
Do you think there's any risk of me falling in love with AI? I mean, in all honesty.
It sounds like you have a fear that there are certain people that will be taken advantage of by that. But then I just play out some young person with disabilities. Okay, because that's presumably who could get tricked by this.
No one thinks that there's a good boy.
Great. So I think of someone who has the real feeling you're describing, like, aww. Okay. Now that person that has that feeling, aww, that's a good feeling for them. And then they respond, and they probably don't have access to that at work or in their romantic relationship.
It's really cool because she's known him for decades.
And so do I hate that the person's having this swell of oxytocin with a computer if their just real experience was pleasurable? So if we stop there, I don't have a problem with that. And then you would likely say, well, now what if that is at the expense of real relationships? Mm-hmm. Well, then there's a problem.
Sure, sure, sure.
If the person is so satiated and getting so much connection that they no longer explore real human relationships, that's a problem. But I'm not—I have a hard time believing that is the case.
I think the person that would be having this relationship with this phone— isn't losing out to other ones. I don't think they have any other ones. And I don't think it's actually, so I think if you look at the net result, it's not like they gained an AI friend and lost a real friend. I think they had zero friends and now they have an AI friend. So to me, that seems like probably an improvement.
Oh, yeah. What a colorful. It was fun. I certainly like New York of today, but I also went there in the 80s with my mom when I was a kid and it was a very dangerous feeling.
I respect and honor your disagreement.
Yes. I mean, walking through Times Square, you're like holding mom's hand extra tight. But I do miss how colorful and segmented and you cross four blocks and it's like everyone's now this way. That was fun. You're like almost time traveling.
Do you think you could fall victim to it?
Yeah. Yeah. I think... I'm inclined to grant everyone the same opinion that I have of myself. You know what I'm saying? I'm not inclined to go like, I can handle it, but someone else can't in general. If I'm saying I can handle something, I feel like I have to kind of grant everyone else that. I can't feel like I have some kind of special skill set that would prevent me, but not other people.
Does that make sense?
But I'm not assuming they can't. You know what I'm saying?
Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
We're not all the same. You're right.
Well, but you're right that we're not all the same.
But I do think like evaluating yourself is somehow capable and others aren't is a little dicey.
The little bit of distinction I think is in there is that you know me very well. Sure. But we're not talking about a specific person who can't handle this AI conversation. We're talking about a theoretical mass of people.
You have a right to assess my shortcomings.
Because you know me really well and you know my shortcomings and I've told you my shortcomings. Yeah. But guessing at everyone else's or thinking something shouldn't be available because your assumption is other people can't. I think that's where it's murky.
This is an extreme example, but this is like, in my mind, it's the guys I've known who are cheating.
And they know in their mind it's very compartmentalized. They're not in love with this person. It was a one-night stand. And then if their girlfriend does the same thing, well, their girlfriend couldn't possibly be compartmentalizing and processing it the way I am.
So they're not allowed to because they're not capable because I'm a man and it can mean nothing to me, but it can't mean nothing to a girl. I know so many dudes who were cheating and were ultra jealous. And I was like, we can't do that. You have to minimally in this behavior grant your partner the same ability. If you can do it and she shouldn't be upset, she should be able to do it, right?
That's an extreme example, but that's what I'm like approaching in this. Does that make sense? Like when you think you could do or handle something, but your assumption is the broad mass can't, it feels a little bit like that thing to me.
This is a really, really fun one. Her other books are Spy High and 30 Ways of Looking at Hillary. So feel free to check those out too. But Lorne is fantastic. I encourage everyone to read it. Please enjoy Susan Morrison.
Yeah. Does that make sense, though, what I'm saying?
Well, but they would with the straight face, and they would be right. They would look at their girlfriend and say, that didn't mean anything. That was a one-night stand in Cleveland. It didn't mean anything.
And they believe that, and that is true.
I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of guys have hooked up with girls on a vacation. They don't pine for them or think about them afterwards. It like was just for sex. And then if their girlfriend says the exact same thing happened, they can't compute that that's possible for her.
Or just being in the village and there's the one road that's got a bend in it. And you're like, oh God, how old is that road? Yeah, it's very historic. When do you start at New Yorker?
I just think you've lost the right to that if you're.
It doesn't make it better for me. Absolutely. It should. If you're evaluating whether your partner is deeply in love with somebody and distracted all the time versus they hooked up drunk in New Jersey one night six months ago, I think those are pretty dramatically different.
Yeah, because you don't want to fuck a stranger.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Well, because it's kind of like it doesn't mean anything to me. It's not a threat to us because I don't, I'm not even going to think about it again.
Yeah. You're risking me.
Right.
That's a super valid.
It's a super valid perspective for your side of it. Yeah. And then I think a very valid perspective on the other side is like. This doesn't mean anything. This has nothing to do with us. It was one night. I'll never see the person again. Yeah.
Anyhow.
No, no. What's your second story?
Because why?
Oh, my God. Do you need a pen? Rob.
David Chang. Okay. That's a delicious ad.
Lorne.
Oh, she did? Yeah. For the book, presumably?
Oh, okay. At an event.
You just clacked your dancers and I liked it.
Why do I like your clack and not mine?
You know what's so funny about Rob is like, He has all these secret things he's, I don't want to say upset about. Well, he just notices. And it's not until I ask him, and this is kind of a nice personality type. Like, he doesn't tell me like, hey, man, you're clacking like a fucking. Yeah. Choo-choo train. A choo-choo train. Is that a good clack example? Click, click, click, click.
You sound like, you sound like Gregory Hines crossing the. Dining room floor to go to the salad bar.
You tap dancer.
Thank you. I would have never known it's driving him nuts, this clack, clack, clacking as he's involved with all the technical aspects. But I got to wait to ask him.
Yeah, yeah. Out of 10, 10 is like you're pulling your hair out when you hear it. And zero is you love it, I guess.
Tell me. I mean, first of all, they're implicitly New York.
Ding, ding, ding.
Yeah. I'm like, which could have been anything. Yeah.
The Pope passed. Yeah.
They're going to do that whole thing we just watched.
Yeah.
I heard on the radio today that Conan won Best Podcaster Award at the Webby's.
I was happy for him and mad. Yeah, obviously I'm mad. Yeah.
Sound like a threat.
I would have thought Will would be higher.
Five times guest.
We should make Sedaris a jacket.
Good for Dave Grohl.
Now that's who I want.
I want him bad. I want you, Dave Grohl.
Because he's been hiding in the woods.
Where he lives in a fort.
Ocelot Gawker. He's my best friend. I love him, but I lost him. Some murder.
He's in prison.
But Dave Grohl's a rock and roll star, and he rips the drums, and he rips the guitar. And he was in my favorite band, Serfana. Smells like teen spirit in here.
He stopped so you can talk.
But he went away from the tree fort to go to prison because of a murder. Yeah.
Thank you. Once in a while.
We lost him to murder. But he's not a murderer. He just murdered.
Yeah, you can feel bad for him.
Not Frito.
Frito's just a pervert. He loves everything. He's never tried.
And one of them I believe was intellectually challenged.
I wrote an article.
One of my hobbies in my 20s is I would write fake news articles and then I would mail them home to my friends.
Like in my famous mugging thing, I wrote an article about that with pictures.
Yeah.
Yeah, on my Compaq computer, desktop computer.
I have, I'm sure, in my milk crate of the things I've written. They're in there.
And then I wrote a long article about Aaron, and I was blaming all of it on— Not Aaron Weakley. Stinchcomb.
And you hated— It's so weird. I mean, you're even protective of a murderer, isn't it?
I don't know why I'm switching.
It's probably because of my personal history that the kid couldn't stop trying to fight me. I mean, I have some, you know.
Someone tried to fight you over and over again. You made fun of their last name. I would probably give you a pass. You'd like that.
And it was right there for the taking. The name is almost already the bad name.
Shitcomb. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I doubt anyone said that to his face. I'm not sure he knew.
I really don't know who would have the gall to. I don't know. I don't know. Let's move on.
That's it? Yeah. Okay. Okay.
I do want to say his name once as Frito.
Aaron Shitcomb. Well, I'll stop there because I don't want to declare this anything.
Aaron, stay calm.
Good night. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Do you have a relationship, I imagine, with Sedaris?
Yeah, what did I just—was his the Pope piece in New York, or was that somewhere else? Touching the Crop or something?
Yeah, I can't figure out his angle.
He has a playground sense of humor. He makes fun of people and humiliates them, and people think that's funny. I think
Yeah, he does. It's good.
The timing of this is perfect because, as you just said, 50-year anniversary of SNL. Now, I guess I didn't realize that you had worked for him. That makes a lot of sense. But I'm imagining you're just a humongous fan of the show and impressed with how this thing continues.
Well, that's funny because it's tied into the Pope. Because the one thing I wanted to say about the Pope thing was both times I would go because I personally want the story. And then also my other part of my mind would be like, look how insane this status thing is. You still buy into it.
Like one person has a given status where they just summons a hundred of the most prominent people who have their own status and everyone shows up.
Yes. And if you're the aliens watching from above, you're like, huh. That guy can do that. That's just so fascinating to me. That even you could be in on it and also be inclined to play along. So then, yes, Lauren also has this really unique Wizard of Oz. All the people you interview, there's these very common comparisons that come up about him.
Yeah, but I would also put him in the George Washington category a little bit, which is he didn't talk and he was surrounded by all these people that wouldn't shut the fuck up. So they just assumed he was so smart because he didn't even feel compelled to brag and they couldn't understand that. In his quietness, people just projected a lot.
Lauren is obviously incredibly gifted and also he's not superhuman, but I do think he's taken on this kind of superhuman quality.
It goes on because it's 1130. And, you know, he needs that deadline. He needs a deadline. And that's when he gets into his kind of superpower mode, you know, the meeting between the dress rehearsal and air. But if you think about it, so the new show, we would be taping And he would yell, cut. And then they'd start a sketch over. And sometimes these tapings would last for five hours.
It goes on because it's 1130. And, you know, he needs that deadline. He needs a deadline. And that's when he gets into his kind of superpower mode, you know, the meeting between the dress rehearsal and air. But if you think about it, so the new show, we would be taping And he would yell, cut. And then they'd start a sketch over. And sometimes these tapings would last for five hours.
I do. I actually can't even show it to you. It's coming out.
I do. I actually can't even show it to you. It's coming out.
And I remember the audience trying to leave in droves and Tom Gamble coming out and going like, you quitters. Sure.
And I remember the audience trying to leave in droves and Tom Gamble coming out and going like, you quitters. Sure.
And then they'd be up all night in the editing room, like splicing the takes together so that it leached all of the magic out of it. I mean, you guys know, because you've done it, the adrenaline of live really adds something. But imagine these comedy sketches pieced together. They had to add laugh tracks, right?
And then they'd be up all night in the editing room, like splicing the takes together so that it leached all of the magic out of it. I mean, you guys know, because you've done it, the adrenaline of live really adds something. But imagine these comedy sketches pieced together. They had to add laugh tracks, right?
I remember knowing that it wasn't going well. And then I guess Brandon Tartikoff said to Lauren after, I can't remember, maybe eight shows, like, why don't you just not make the rest of them? And instead, and here's the novel idea, let's make Best Of the new show ours. Best Of.
I remember knowing that it wasn't going well. And then I guess Brandon Tartikoff said to Lauren after, I can't remember, maybe eight shows, like, why don't you just not make the rest of them? And instead, and here's the novel idea, let's make Best Of the new show ours. Best Of.
That's right. Invented Saturday Night Live. We decided that Lorne has monomial status, you know, like Fidel or Madonna. You know, one name does it, Lorne.
That's right. Invented Saturday Night Live. We decided that Lorne has monomial status, you know, like Fidel or Madonna. You know, one name does it, Lorne.
That's popped in my head. That was my only time in television. I switched to journalism after that. But I stayed friends with all those writers, and a lot of them, including Steve Martin and Jack, have written for me at The New Yorker and other places I've worked. So I was always kind of in the... I would run into Lauren every five years and say hi. I think our daughters knew each other in school.
That's popped in my head. That was my only time in television. I switched to journalism after that. But I stayed friends with all those writers, and a lot of them, including Steve Martin and Jack, have written for me at The New Yorker and other places I've worked. So I was always kind of in the... I would run into Lauren every five years and say hi. I think our daughters knew each other in school.
But... after the 40th anniversary, I just, well, I was an empty nester. I had this crazy idea. I was going to have a lot of time. And I just realized it really hit me how Lauren is like single-handedly responsible for what America thinks is funny, you know, across so many generations. And I thought he'd be a great subject for a book. So I, I sold a book first. I did a proposal.
But... after the 40th anniversary, I just, well, I was an empty nester. I had this crazy idea. I was going to have a lot of time. And I just realized it really hit me how Lauren is like single-handedly responsible for what America thinks is funny, you know, across so many generations. And I thought he'd be a great subject for a book. So I, I sold a book first. I did a proposal.
There was a bidding war. I chose Random House. And then I went to see him in his office. And I said, because I know, you guys know Lauren, he likes to be out of the frame. He likes to be behind the curtain. He's not a very public facing guy. So I said, Lauren, I just signed a contract to write a book about you and the show. I don't need anything from you.
There was a bidding war. I chose Random House. And then I went to see him in his office. And I said, because I know, you guys know Lauren, he likes to be out of the frame. He likes to be behind the curtain. He's not a very public facing guy. So I said, Lauren, I just signed a contract to write a book about you and the show. I don't need anything from you.
You know, I know your people and I'm kind of around, but if you wanted to talk to me and participate in it, it'll be a better and a richer book. And, you know, your legacy deserves that. And at first he looked like he was going to have a heart attack, you know, and then, you know, he said, you think about it. And we had a drink a couple of days later and he,
You know, I know your people and I'm kind of around, but if you wanted to talk to me and participate in it, it'll be a better and a richer book. And, you know, your legacy deserves that. And at first he looked like he was going to have a heart attack, you know, and then, you know, he said, you think about it. And we had a drink a couple of days later and he,
And he just started telling those stories. He just started talking. And so he was in. We didn't have any kind of agreement. He liked the fact that it was my book. It's not a vanity project that he had any approval over or anything. But he's smart enough to know that that's better, to have a real work of journalism about you and not some silly sort of puff book.
And he just started telling those stories. He just started talking. And so he was in. We didn't have any kind of agreement. He liked the fact that it was my book. It's not a vanity project that he had any approval over or anything. But he's smart enough to know that that's better, to have a real work of journalism about you and not some silly sort of puff book.
were benign i mean the book's coming out uh did he bury people what did he say about me oh dana you know what he said about you is it's a fucking show pony i mean you both of you um both of you are really knows me really up there in his pantheon No, I think that he, I think one of his reservations in the beginning, and this is very smart of him, he knows that people have very selective memory.
were benign i mean the book's coming out uh did he bury people what did he say about me oh dana you know what he said about you is it's a fucking show pony i mean you both of you um both of you are really knows me really up there in his pantheon No, I think that he, I think one of his reservations in the beginning, and this is very smart of him, he knows that people have very selective memory.
I don't know that he read deeply in those, like the oral history by Tom Shales and Jim Miller, but he certainly knew that over the years, people had put out versions of things that were wildly exaggerated. And he also knew that comedians, like to kind of embellish a story to make it right. That's a human thing.
I don't know that he read deeply in those, like the oral history by Tom Shales and Jim Miller, but he certainly knew that over the years, people had put out versions of things that were wildly exaggerated. And he also knew that comedians, like to kind of embellish a story to make it right. That's a human thing.
So I think he, he was a little worried about that, but he, uh, you know, you know, he, I asked him lots of questions. He told me lots of stories. Uh, I'd say in the final two years of the reporting, what I was doing was I'd go over there on a Friday night and I'd say, okay, now what we're going to do is try to do some fact-checking.
So I think he, he was a little worried about that, but he, uh, you know, you know, he, I asked him lots of questions. He told me lots of stories. Uh, I'd say in the final two years of the reporting, what I was doing was I'd go over there on a Friday night and I'd say, okay, now what we're going to do is try to do some fact-checking.
Because a lot of times I'd have three or four different versions of an event. And I wanted him to try to be a tiebreaker. Like, what do you think actually happened here? And he was very honest. A lot of times he just said, God, I don't know. It was the 70s. Yeah. But I, but again, because I, you know, work at the New Yorker and we're fact checking and accuracy are important.
Because a lot of times I'd have three or four different versions of an event. And I wanted him to try to be a tiebreaker. Like, what do you think actually happened here? And he was very honest. A lot of times he just said, God, I don't know. It was the 70s. Yeah. But I, but again, because I, you know, work at the New Yorker and we're fact checking and accuracy are important.
I worked really hard to try to get, get it, get to the bottom of things. And there were definitely things. And I brought all these things to him. There were definitely things that maybe stung a little bit or that he would have preferred not be in the book, but he never said like, Oh God, don't put that in the book. You know, he, he, he understood that. Yeah.
I worked really hard to try to get, get it, get to the bottom of things. And there were definitely things. And I brought all these things to him. There were definitely things that maybe stung a little bit or that he would have preferred not be in the book, but he never said like, Oh God, don't put that in the book. You know, he, he, he understood that. Yeah.
And God, I really respect the hell out of him for that. I mean, he knew I was going to write a real book. But the response among his world and his publicists and the people around him has been really positive. People think that I've really got him.
And God, I really respect the hell out of him for that. I mean, he knew I was going to write a real book. But the response among his world and his publicists and the people around him has been really positive. People think that I've really got him.
But, you know, I mean, going into something like this with a character as mysterious and feared as Lorne is, I always knew that there would be a contingent of people who said, like, oh, God, this is just a blowjob. And then there'd be other people who would say, this is a hatchet job, you know, right? So, I think, I mean, I really...
But, you know, I mean, going into something like this with a character as mysterious and feared as Lorne is, I always knew that there would be a contingent of people who said, like, oh, God, this is just a blowjob. And then there'd be other people who would say, this is a hatchet job, you know, right? So, I think, I mean, I really...
I'm in awe of Lorne and I really admire him and I admire and like him even more at the end of this process than I did at the beginning. I think what he's done is incredible. But you guys worked there when people would be bitching about this or that or, you know, it's a tough place, right?
I'm in awe of Lorne and I really admire him and I admire and like him even more at the end of this process than I did at the beginning. I think what he's done is incredible. But you guys worked there when people would be bitching about this or that or, you know, it's a tough place, right?
It's like the people who say skits instead of sketches. It's an immediate disqualifier, right?
It's like the people who say skits instead of sketches. It's an immediate disqualifier, right?
Huh.
Huh.
Did you hang up with someone and go, wow, they were very... One person who blew my mind was Dan Aykroyd because he talks in these sentences. Have you guys ever talked to him?
Did you hang up with someone and go, wow, they were very... One person who blew my mind was Dan Aykroyd because he talks in these sentences. Have you guys ever talked to him?
You know what I mean? He talks in perfect paragraphs.
You know what I mean? He talks in perfect paragraphs.
And he's so, I just would never have thought that he, you know, he's somebody who, and, and he's so thoughtful and uses such interesting words.
And he's so, I just would never have thought that he, you know, he's somebody who, and, and he's so thoughtful and uses such interesting words.
Well, it makes you realize that, you know, Beldar Conehead and Van Aykroyd are very similar, aren't they? Very close.
Well, it makes you realize that, you know, Beldar Conehead and Van Aykroyd are very similar, aren't they? Very close.
Well, you know, it is funny. One of the things that is so interesting about Lauren is that even though people would early in the show, as the show started getting successful and Lauren started getting richer with fancier friends, you know, people would bitch and moan about that. You know, Belushi referred to Lauren's fancy friends as the dead, you know, all those socialites and everything.
Well, you know, it is funny. One of the things that is so interesting about Lauren is that even though people would early in the show, as the show started getting successful and Lauren started getting richer with fancier friends, you know, people would bitch and moan about that. You know, Belushi referred to Lauren's fancy friends as the dead, you know, all those socialites and everything.
But I think that it was kind of interesting the way Lauren managed to parlay that into kind of a, comic character on the show. You know, like the Lorne that you see in the Smigel's TV Funhouse.
But I think that it was kind of interesting the way Lauren managed to parlay that into kind of a, comic character on the show. You know, like the Lorne that you see in the Smigel's TV Funhouse.
Get me back my show.
Get me back my show.
You know, he kind of... I feel like he almost... the Lorne Pasha producer character became a character on the show as much as Church Lady did.
You know, he kind of... I feel like he almost... the Lorne Pasha producer character became a character on the show as much as Church Lady did.
And I remember, actually, I hope we hear more of your Lorne, David, today, but I remember asking Alec Baldwin at one point, who do you think does the best Lorne impersonation? And Alec just said, Lorne.
And I remember, actually, I hope we hear more of your Lorne, David, today, but I remember asking Alec Baldwin at one point, who do you think does the best Lorne impersonation? And Alec just said, Lorne.
I think you're going to get your $38 worth. But no, everyone I talk to about Lorne, it's the same. They're all kind of trying to unriddle him. Conan says everybody thinks that Lorne has the secret. Part of that is that he isn't Unlike a lot of guys who got rich and famous in the 80s, you know, Barry Diller, Michael Milken or people like that. He's never been like a show-off workaholic.
I think you're going to get your $38 worth. But no, everyone I talk to about Lorne, it's the same. They're all kind of trying to unriddle him. Conan says everybody thinks that Lorne has the secret. Part of that is that he isn't Unlike a lot of guys who got rich and famous in the 80s, you know, Barry Diller, Michael Milken or people like that. He's never been like a show-off workaholic.
You know, he's not one of those people who says, I get up at 4 a.m. and work out with a trainer. And then, you know, he does seem to know how to live. You know, he kind of invented work-life balance, you know.
You know, he's not one of those people who says, I get up at 4 a.m. and work out with a trainer. And then, you know, he does seem to know how to live. You know, he kind of invented work-life balance, you know.
But in terms of, you say, the marshmallow inside, I don't want to be too psychobabbly or too much of an easy answer, but a lot really does take you back to Lorne suddenly losing his father when he's 14 years old. He was completely... at sea. And his father collapsed one night after having a big argument with Lorne. He had a big fight. Father collapses, disappears into the hospital.
But in terms of, you say, the marshmallow inside, I don't want to be too psychobabbly or too much of an easy answer, but a lot really does take you back to Lorne suddenly losing his father when he's 14 years old. He was completely... at sea. And his father collapsed one night after having a big argument with Lorne. He had a big fight. Father collapses, disappears into the hospital.
Lorne never sees him again. This gives you some indication of why you never see Lorne having a yelling match with anybody. He keeps it very low. I think at one point I say in the book that he speaks in the register of a man announcing a golf tournament. But I think that his whole world got smashed when he was 14. Then he had a bad year.
Lorne never sees him again. This gives you some indication of why you never see Lorne having a yelling match with anybody. He keeps it very low. I think at one point I say in the book that he speaks in the register of a man announcing a golf tournament. But I think that his whole world got smashed when he was 14. Then he had a bad year.
His mother thought he was going to be a juvenile delinquent, to use the term popular in the juvia. And he had to kind of He had to put it all together. I think it gave him a kind of resilience that helped him throughout his whole career. Just when I was starting the book, I interviewed Judd Apatow for the New Yorker Radio Hour. And he said something that really resonated with me.
His mother thought he was going to be a juvenile delinquent, to use the term popular in the juvia. And he had to kind of He had to put it all together. I think it gave him a kind of resilience that helped him throughout his whole career. Just when I was starting the book, I interviewed Judd Apatow for the New Yorker Radio Hour. And he said something that really resonated with me.
When Judd was 14, his parents had a really bad divorce. And I think there were financial problems. His whole world kind of fell apart. And he told me that he definitely, because of that, like that's why he kind of early in his life abandoned his dreams of being a performer and instead became a director and producer.
When Judd was 14, his parents had a really bad divorce. And I think there were financial problems. His whole world kind of fell apart. And he told me that he definitely, because of that, like that's why he kind of early in his life abandoned his dreams of being a performer and instead became a director and producer.
Because, you know, when you're that guy, you've got the clipboard, you've got the call sheet, you're making sure that everything works. You're making sure that it's not going to be chaos. You're taking care of everything, right? As opposed to, you're a performer, you're just kind of strutting your own stuff.
Because, you know, when you're that guy, you've got the clipboard, you've got the call sheet, you're making sure that everything works. You're making sure that it's not going to be chaos. You're taking care of everything, right? As opposed to, you're a performer, you're just kind of strutting your own stuff.
I think, no, I think that's right. And Dana, I remember that when I interviewed you, you told me that when you showed up there, you thought you were probably going to be in the last cast of SNL. You thought it was on its way out and it was kind of a Hail Mary pass. And, you know, it's interesting because I met Lorne when he was perhaps at an even lower point. Even lower?
I think, no, I think that's right. And Dana, I remember that when I interviewed you, you told me that when you showed up there, you thought you were probably going to be in the last cast of SNL. You thought it was on its way out and it was kind of a Hail Mary pass. And, you know, it's interesting because I met Lorne when he was perhaps at an even lower point. Even lower?
And I thought that that reminded me so much of Lorne, because he also was a performer early in his life. But he's determined to not let anything fall apart, because his own world fell apart when he was 14. That'll be $350 for that. Yeah.
And I thought that that reminded me so much of Lorne, because he also was a performer early in his life. But he's determined to not let anything fall apart, because his own world fell apart when he was 14. That'll be $350 for that. Yeah.
I didn't know that until I started reporting this book. So every, you know, think about all the people who were just writers, Mulaney, Odenkirk, you know, those guys never got on stage.
I didn't know that until I started reporting this book. So every, you know, think about all the people who were just writers, Mulaney, Odenkirk, you know, those guys never got on stage.
Oh, well, there's definitely some people who are angry because, you know, it's one of the things I would say that maybe Lauren's biggest achievement was just creating this kind of culture with walls around it. You know, it's a tribe and you're in it or you're out of it. You know, it's like the Godfather kind of.
Oh, well, there's definitely some people who are angry because, you know, it's one of the things I would say that maybe Lauren's biggest achievement was just creating this kind of culture with walls around it. You know, it's a tribe and you're in it or you're out of it. You know, it's like the Godfather kind of.
Who, you know, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons it was so painful for Conan when he lost The Tonight Show and went to TBS. He was kind of, you know, he had spent his whole career at NBC. And for a while, he had a little bit of a frosty rupture with Lauren. I think, you know, he was off the t-shirt list, you know. Stopped getting the Broadway video. You guys still get those?
Who, you know, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons it was so painful for Conan when he lost The Tonight Show and went to TBS. He was kind of, you know, he had spent his whole career at NBC. And for a while, he had a little bit of a frosty rupture with Lauren. I think, you know, he was off the t-shirt list, you know. Stopped getting the Broadway video. You guys still get those?
The Broadway video t-shirts?
The Broadway video t-shirts?
told Conan and his producer, Jeff Ross, oh, you don't need Lauren to be your EP. But I think that was a misstep. I think it probably would have been a good... Yeah.
told Conan and his producer, Jeff Ross, oh, you don't need Lauren to be your EP. But I think that was a misstep. I think it probably would have been a good... Yeah.
Well, I worked for him when he did the new show, which was his one public spectacular flop. And I don't think people thought he was going to be coming back from that. And he also lost his own money in that show. It's strange it was such a flop because it was packed with talent. You know, the writer's room was incredible. Jim Downey, Jack Handy, George Meyer. Wow.
Well, I worked for him when he did the new show, which was his one public spectacular flop. And I don't think people thought he was going to be coming back from that. And he also lost his own money in that show. It's strange it was such a flop because it was packed with talent. You know, the writer's room was incredible. Jim Downey, Jack Handy, George Meyer. Wow.
Yeah, I think that for Lauren, it's a relationship business, you know, and he really does. For that, yes. One of his old Canadian friends told me that even from the very beginning, you could tell he likes rabbit's feet. You know, he likes to have these familiar people around. Sure. I think one time he was kind of half joking, but he compared himself to, he said, I'm like Prometheus.
Yeah, I think that for Lauren, it's a relationship business, you know, and he really does. For that, yes. One of his old Canadian friends told me that even from the very beginning, you could tell he likes rabbit's feet. You know, he likes to have these familiar people around. Sure. I think one time he was kind of half joking, but he compared himself to, he said, I'm like Prometheus.
I'm the bringer of fire to these young people, the people he hires and whose life he changes. And he is aware that, he's very aware that you want to stay tight with the people who were there for you at the beginning. It's why he kept Bernie. I'm sure he was paying Bernie Brillstein 15%.
I'm the bringer of fire to these young people, the people he hires and whose life he changes. And he is aware that, he's very aware that you want to stay tight with the people who were there for you at the beginning. It's why he kept Bernie. I'm sure he was paying Bernie Brillstein 15%.
I don't think they were. Weren't they?
I don't think they were. Weren't they?
No, they weren't on it.
No, they weren't on it.
No, they weren't. They weren't.
No, they weren't. They weren't.
But weren't they on Dana's show?
But weren't they on Dana's show?
It could have been on a bad episode of SNL.
It could have been on a bad episode of SNL.
That's right out of Ed Sullivan.
That's right out of Ed Sullivan.
That reminds me of when Lorne directed his show in college, UC Follies, which was very much like a proto-SNL thing. There was a Shakespeare parody in it that Lorne wrote about This is actually one of the first funny joke that I've ever, that Lorne Michaels wrote to my mind. There was a character in it named Hand in Brawl.
That reminds me of when Lorne directed his show in college, UC Follies, which was very much like a proto-SNL thing. There was a Shakespeare parody in it that Lorne wrote about This is actually one of the first funny joke that I've ever, that Lorne Michaels wrote to my mind. There was a character in it named Hand in Brawl.
Instead of Fortinbra. Yeah. Handinbra. You get it?
Instead of Fortinbra. Yeah. Handinbra. You get it?
It's pretty good.
It's pretty good.
It was the 50s, people.
It was the 50s, people.
John Candy did amazing work on that show. It's worth looking up Food Repair Man.
John Candy did amazing work on that show. It's worth looking up Food Repair Man.
Belushi was on Newsweek.
Belushi was on Newsweek.
for animal house and chevy was on new york magazine at the end of uh season one they called him the heir apparent to johnny carson and that's basically what started all kinds of splintering in that first cast because yeah you know the idea wasn't for one person to emerge as a star that kind of screwed everything up immediate problems that's always been there since then yeah yeah
for animal house and chevy was on new york magazine at the end of uh season one they called him the heir apparent to johnny carson and that's basically what started all kinds of splintering in that first cast because yeah you know the idea wasn't for one person to emerge as a star that kind of screwed everything up immediate problems that's always been there since then yeah yeah
You were asking about the new show. I just remembered one funny little conflict that happened there. I remember Gamelin Pross wrote a sketch called Time Truck. It was a time traveling truck. And it was for a show Kevin Kline was hosting. And the idea was Kevin Kline was supposed to play Abe Lincoln. They were supposed to go back in time to prevent Lincoln from getting shot.
You were asking about the new show. I just remembered one funny little conflict that happened there. I remember Gamelin Pross wrote a sketch called Time Truck. It was a time traveling truck. And it was for a show Kevin Kline was hosting. And the idea was Kevin Kline was supposed to play Abe Lincoln. They were supposed to go back in time to prevent Lincoln from getting shot.
But Lorne thought that it would be much funnier to have his close personal friend, Paul Simon, play Lincoln, just as a side gag. The writers are like, Paul Simon is not a comic actor.
But Lorne thought that it would be much funnier to have his close personal friend, Paul Simon, play Lincoln, just as a side gag. The writers are like, Paul Simon is not a comic actor.
It was Paul.
It was Paul.
Yeah, well, you know, Jim Downey had a really smart way of describing this. He said, Lorne is a guy bad at term papers, great at tests. So if you give him an open-ended thing that he has to sit down and fiddle with, he's just never going to finish it. But when there's a deadline, when there's an alarm bell that goes off, that's... I think someone said the deadline is Lauren's cocaine.
Yeah, well, you know, Jim Downey had a really smart way of describing this. He said, Lorne is a guy bad at term papers, great at tests. So if you give him an open-ended thing that he has to sit down and fiddle with, he's just never going to finish it. But when there's a deadline, when there's an alarm bell that goes off, that's... I think someone said the deadline is Lauren's cocaine.
It's the thing that gets him galvanized. Can you imagine if that show was taped? You would never have that moment at 10.30 where he's saying... But... Yeah, I think that he definitely has said to me a bunch of different times that he he was always his whole life reluctant to burn a bridge or to close a door. You know, he always felt like, Oh, if I do this, then I won't ever be able to do this.
It's the thing that gets him galvanized. Can you imagine if that show was taped? You would never have that moment at 10.30 where he's saying... But... Yeah, I think that he definitely has said to me a bunch of different times that he he was always his whole life reluctant to burn a bridge or to close a door. You know, he always felt like, Oh, if I do this, then I won't ever be able to do this.
I mean, he's, he, and he also told me a story, this kind of related. He told me it's a real memory of once his father taking him to a diner when he was a little boy and saying, just order anything you want off the menu. So he ordered a hot dog and a hamburger and a grilled cheese and onion rings and French fries. And, You know, couldn't eat at all.
I mean, he's, he, and he also told me a story, this kind of related. He told me it's a real memory of once his father taking him to a diner when he was a little boy and saying, just order anything you want off the menu. So he ordered a hot dog and a hamburger and a grilled cheese and onion rings and French fries. And, You know, couldn't eat at all.
And then his father said, let this be a lesson to you. You know, your eyes are bigger than your stomach. Now, I don't know how Lauren converted that into a lesson about comedy.
And then his father said, let this be a lesson to you. You know, your eyes are bigger than your stomach. Now, I don't know how Lauren converted that into a lesson about comedy.
But he did. And I think that if you think about that plate full of junk food at the diner, it's not unlike what the show is like Saturday going into, you know, they still have way more than they can use.
But he did. And I think that if you think about that plate full of junk food at the diner, it's not unlike what the show is like Saturday going into, you know, they still have way more than they can use.
And it's chopping it down.
And it's chopping it down.
Right, right, right, right.
Right, right, right, right.
Well, I thought it was, you know, a lot of people talk about these different rules that Lorne has about comedy, these Lorne-isms. And I think all the comedy ones are interesting, but it was also really interesting for me to hear how many of them were just about like how to live your life.
Well, I thought it was, you know, a lot of people talk about these different rules that Lorne has about comedy, these Lorne-isms. And I think all the comedy ones are interesting, but it was also really interesting for me to hear how many of them were just about like how to live your life.
You know, so many people talked about how Lorne would say, buy yourself an apartment that you think you can't afford. Because, you know, then you'll come home after a hard day at work and you'll go, wow, who lives here? And you'll go, wow, I live here.
You know, so many people talked about how Lorne would say, buy yourself an apartment that you think you can't afford. Because, you know, then you'll come home after a hard day at work and you'll go, wow, who lives here? And you'll go, wow, I live here.
No, he said that to me too, and I totally get it. I like it. Yeah. But it was also, I spent so much time hanging out there that it was really interesting for me to see, he's so patient kind of with the millennials and some of the snowflakey sensibilities. But one day he said something that really cracked me up. This is in the book.
No, he said that to me too, and I totally get it. I like it. Yeah. But it was also, I spent so much time hanging out there that it was really interesting for me to see, he's so patient kind of with the millennials and some of the snowflakey sensibilities. But one day he said something that really cracked me up. This is in the book.
I mean, I have a theory.
I mean, I have a theory.
We were walking in the theater district and we walked past the Mean Girls marquee. And he had just got tickets for his friend Margaret Trudeau to go. But he was really mad because one of the leads had called in sick because she had to take her dog to the vet. The dog had eaten glue or something. And he just said, if it was Patti LuPone, the dog would be dead. Yeah.
We were walking in the theater district and we walked past the Mean Girls marquee. And he had just got tickets for his friend Margaret Trudeau to go. But he was really mad because one of the leads had called in sick because she had to take her dog to the vet. The dog had eaten glue or something. And he just said, if it was Patti LuPone, the dog would be dead. Yeah.
I'm going to press record. He loved, oh, sure.
I'm going to press record. He loved, oh, sure.
Lauren loved variety TV. You know, he grew up watching, you know, Sid Caesar and your show shows and all that stuff. And when he went to LA in the sixties and seventies, he just bounced around from one karate variety show to the next, you know, Perry Como, Burns and Schreiber. What about Burns and Schreiber where he met his wife? But, but, um,
Lauren loved variety TV. You know, he grew up watching, you know, Sid Caesar and your show shows and all that stuff. And when he went to LA in the sixties and seventies, he just bounced around from one karate variety show to the next, you know, Perry Como, Burns and Schreiber. What about Burns and Schreiber where he met his wife? But, but, um,
Yeah. No, he has a lot of things like that that can kind of close off discussion. Like he'll say, it'll get there, you know, or he'll say it knows what it is. Stuff like that. Yeah. Really good, good things. Yeah.
Yeah. No, he has a lot of things like that that can kind of close off discussion. Like he'll say, it'll get there, you know, or he'll say it knows what it is. Stuff like that. Yeah. Really good, good things. Yeah.
I thought it was also interesting that even though, you know, in that meeting between dress and air, he really is like a general, you know, and that's, that's the time at which he famously yelled at Bob Odenkirk once. Odenkirk, if you talk again, I'll break your fucking legs, you know, but mostly that's when he's most confrontational because there's no time left.
I thought it was also interesting that even though, you know, in that meeting between dress and air, he really is like a general, you know, and that's, that's the time at which he famously yelled at Bob Odenkirk once. Odenkirk, if you talk again, I'll break your fucking legs, you know, but mostly that's when he's most confrontational because there's no time left.
Right, but even though that is his moment, he rarely forces somebody to change something. I mean, writers are always telling me.
Right, but even though that is his moment, he rarely forces somebody to change something. I mean, writers are always telling me.
Yes, he'll give you the note. He'll say maybe this, maybe that, but he isn't going to say you have to change the ending. He lets it belong to the writers, which is so unusual.
Yes, he'll give you the note. He'll say maybe this, maybe that, but he isn't going to say you have to change the ending. He lets it belong to the writers, which is so unusual.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But he might say, as David was just saying, he might say, well, do you think it's working? Yeah, stuff like that.
But he might say, as David was just saying, he might say, well, do you think it's working? Yeah, stuff like that.
Do you think it's working? But Dana, this is reminding me, what David just said is the story you told me about the time he thought church lady got too dirty with the football players. Yeah.
Do you think it's working? But Dana, this is reminding me, what David just said is the story you told me about the time he thought church lady got too dirty with the football players. Yeah.
You know, that superior dance thing. I mean, I didn't know he didn't like that because, boy, I think that's so funny.
You know, that superior dance thing. I mean, I didn't know he didn't like that because, boy, I think that's so funny.
The thing is, he liked the form, but he thought that it was like stuck in the 50s. You know, the people writing those shows were guys who had written for radio. And his big idea was to take that format and bring it into the modern world, you know. Movies were cool. You had Terrence Malick and Robert Altman. Music was cool. But television was like a really weird backwater.
The thing is, he liked the form, but he thought that it was like stuck in the 50s. You know, the people writing those shows were guys who had written for radio. And his big idea was to take that format and bring it into the modern world, you know. Movies were cool. You had Terrence Malick and Robert Altman. Music was cool. But television was like a really weird backwater.
Yes, she became a signature. Because I know Conan told me that Or maybe Lorne told me, maybe they both told me, rare instance of everybody agreeing that Lorne was always telling Conan to get rid of that string dance thing that he did, you know, where he would touch his nipples and go, yeah, Lorne hated that. But Conan stuck with it and it worked.
Yes, she became a signature. Because I know Conan told me that Or maybe Lorne told me, maybe they both told me, rare instance of everybody agreeing that Lorne was always telling Conan to get rid of that string dance thing that he did, you know, where he would touch his nipples and go, yeah, Lorne hated that. But Conan stuck with it and it worked.
You know, there are people, you know, people, I guess.
You know, there are people, you know, people, I guess.
Right. Well, Mark McKinney told me that at the original, at the initial read through of the kids in the hall series, uh, The one thing that Lauren just didn't like, didn't understand was the, I'm crushing your head guy. And that when Mark, and you know that sketch.
Right. Well, Mark McKinney told me that at the original, at the initial read through of the kids in the hall series, uh, The one thing that Lauren just didn't like, didn't understand was the, I'm crushing your head guy. And that when Mark, and you know that sketch.
When Mark first read it, Lauren said like, oh, so it's a funny voice thing, you know, but he didn't.
When Mark first read it, Lauren said like, oh, so it's a funny voice thing, you know, but he didn't.
Dana, you can say that better than me. But then when he saw it, when he saw that it was a visual, you know, like that, then he got it and he liked it. So again, you have to have, you really have to have a sense of yourself, I guess, right? Because a more of a fading violet kind of performer would have just said, okay, we'll cut that sketch.
Dana, you can say that better than me. But then when he saw it, when he saw that it was a visual, you know, like that, then he got it and he liked it. So again, you have to have, you really have to have a sense of yourself, I guess, right? Because a more of a fading violet kind of performer would have just said, okay, we'll cut that sketch.
So many people told me about how they would come off stage and just feeling like they really killed. And, you know, then in the Monday meeting, he wouldn't talk about that, but he would say, you know, like. Nora, you were breathtaking as the fourth waitress. That kind of thing.
So many people told me about how they would come off stage and just feeling like they really killed. And, you know, then in the Monday meeting, he wouldn't talk about that, but he would say, you know, like. Nora, you were breathtaking as the fourth waitress. That kind of thing.
The Cowbell one is great. We've got to watch that. It's a whole documentary.
The Cowbell one is great. We've got to watch that. It's a whole documentary.
You were great in it, Dana.
You were great in it, Dana.
Well, it took me so long to write it. Only 10 years. This wasn't part of the plan.
Well, it took me so long to write it. Only 10 years. This wasn't part of the plan.
It really worked. And I'd say, I mean, it definitely works. And especially because so much of the hoopla, so much of the other stuff, it's like snippets of sketches. But my hope is that people really don't know that much about Lorne. The comedy cognoscenti know that he's Obi-Wan Kenobi and everything else. But I think that the greater world doesn't know
It really worked. And I'd say, I mean, it definitely works. And especially because so much of the hoopla, so much of the other stuff, it's like snippets of sketches. But my hope is that people really don't know that much about Lorne. The comedy cognoscenti know that he's Obi-Wan Kenobi and everything else. But I think that the greater world doesn't know
So he was the first person who said, let's make variety TV something that has something to do with what people in their 20s are like. Let's put drugs on screen.
So he was the first person who said, let's make variety TV something that has something to do with what people in their 20s are like. Let's put drugs on screen.
how complicated and fascinating and strange and brilliant he is. And, you know, I hope, as you were saying, Dan, I hope I'm kind of able to explain that a little bit.
how complicated and fascinating and strange and brilliant he is. And, you know, I hope, as you were saying, Dan, I hope I'm kind of able to explain that a little bit.
Yeah, I think that's a really good question because I know there was a time in the 90s when he was trying to do the changeover between the Hartman cast to the Sandler cast. He was hiring a lot of people. I thought it was maybe just a
Yeah, I think that's a really good question because I know there was a time in the 90s when he was trying to do the changeover between the Hartman cast to the Sandler cast. He was hiring a lot of people. I thought it was maybe just a
ease the you know create a buffer um and then there was like some big budget cut back and he had to get rid of a bunch of them but yeah i i don't know the answer to that unless and i'm speculating here unless it's in a diversity effort you know to just try to get a more diverse cast but i don't think it serves the show because i think that there's so many people you're kind of who's that you don't know for sure you don't know for sure it's too hard people
ease the you know create a buffer um and then there was like some big budget cut back and he had to get rid of a bunch of them but yeah i i don't know the answer to that unless and i'm speculating here unless it's in a diversity effort you know to just try to get a more diverse cast but i don't think it serves the show because i think that there's so many people you're kind of who's that you don't know for sure you don't know for sure it's too hard people
What was yours, David? What was the thing that made you feel like... God, it took a long time.
What was yours, David? What was the thing that made you feel like... God, it took a long time.
And the assistants, yeah.
And the assistants, yeah.
You know, the thing about the huge cast... It's even harder now, Dana. And when I was hanging around there a few years back, the cast would also, they would let you know. I mean, of course, it's thrilling for them when geniuses like you and Alec and everybody come in to play these cameos. But during the first Trump administration, you have all these stars coming in. Yeah.
You know, the thing about the huge cast... It's even harder now, Dana. And when I was hanging around there a few years back, the cast would also, they would let you know. I mean, of course, it's thrilling for them when geniuses like you and Alec and everybody come in to play these cameos. But during the first Trump administration, you have all these stars coming in. Yeah.
And if you were in the cast, you might be pissed.
And if you were in the cast, you might be pissed.
Well, I firmly believe... I don't think he's going to just say, over and out. You know, he's never missed a show. He's never missed a show. I think they'd have to carry him out of there in a stretcher. But I don't think that any of... I don't buy any of the replacement theories. I don't think Tina or Seth or I can't see any of them doing it.
Well, I firmly believe... I don't think he's going to just say, over and out. You know, he's never missed a show. He's never missed a show. I think they'd have to carry him out of there in a stretcher. But I don't think that any of... I don't buy any of the replacement theories. I don't think Tina or Seth or I can't see any of them doing it.
What I think is the likelier idea, and I hope this doesn't sound too McKinsey, you know, but the way I see it, Lauren is completely essential two days of the week. He has to be there during read through because he really pays attention to the room.
What I think is the likelier idea, and I hope this doesn't sound too McKinsey, you know, but the way I see it, Lauren is completely essential two days of the week. He has to be there during read through because he really pays attention to the room.
And then he picks the show after that with his deputy's help. And then Saturday, when he's sitting there under the bleachers.
And then he picks the show after that with his deputy's help. And then Saturday, when he's sitting there under the bleachers.
And so I think he has this great team of people who could do the other stuff. And if he came in, was wheeled in on Wednesday afternoon and on Friday and on Saturday evening.
And so I think he has this great team of people who could do the other stuff. And if he came in, was wheeled in on Wednesday afternoon and on Friday and on Saturday evening.
Yeah, I think that's right. And all those people, Doyle and Kenward and Higgins, they really know him, so they can give a pretty good approximation.
Yeah, I think that's right. And all those people, Doyle and Kenward and Higgins, they really know him, so they can give a pretty good approximation.
But there's no one could do what he does under the bleachers. I mean, when I'm sitting there under the bleachers with him, and you guys, I'm sure you've done this, right? And he's I mean, the funniest one, I was there for the Jonah Hill show and Maggie Rogers, who was then just starting out as a singer, comes out on stage at dress wearing this big red caftan and no shoes.
But there's no one could do what he does under the bleachers. I mean, when I'm sitting there under the bleachers with him, and you guys, I'm sure you've done this, right? And he's I mean, the funniest one, I was there for the Jonah Hill show and Maggie Rogers, who was then just starting out as a singer, comes out on stage at dress wearing this big red caftan and no shoes.
And Lauren just goes, barefoot? Where's she from? A place with roads? He was so mad. Yeah.
And Lauren just goes, barefoot? Where's she from? A place with roads? He was so mad. Yeah.
He seems very, you know, he's very with it and alert. And I've never seen him sick. You know, he's taking good care of himself.
He seems very, you know, he's very with it and alert. And I've never seen him sick. You know, he's taking good care of himself.
Well, one thing he did tell me when the Reitman movie came out, you know, that was sort of the beginning of you know, like his anonymity being blown in a way. I mean, he, he told me he didn't see it. I mean, who knows, who knows if he did.
Well, one thing he did tell me when the Reitman movie came out, you know, that was sort of the beginning of you know, like his anonymity being blown in a way. I mean, he, he told me he didn't see it. I mean, who knows, who knows if he did.
But he said, he said, I just feel like I've lost control of my life. It's like as a 50th approach, I think he's really excited about the show and he's excited about seeing everybody. He loves everybody. But he does feel, I mean, even to some extent with a book, it's just like he's kind of stepping out. The Reitman movie put him center stage. This book puts him center stage. It's a shift for him.
But he said, he said, I just feel like I've lost control of my life. It's like as a 50th approach, I think he's really excited about the show and he's excited about seeing everybody. He loves everybody. But he does feel, I mean, even to some extent with a book, it's just like he's kind of stepping out. The Reitman movie put him center stage. This book puts him center stage. It's a shift for him.
I mean, the other thing that Lorne will say is that when he was pitching a show like SNL for years and nobody wanted it. And what happened is that they needed something in late night on SN, you know, on NBC to replace Carson's reruns. And Lauren had never thought of late night.
I mean, the other thing that Lorne will say is that when he was pitching a show like SNL for years and nobody wanted it. And what happened is that they needed something in late night on SN, you know, on NBC to replace Carson's reruns. And Lauren had never thought of late night.
And he's funny. He's a funny person, which a lot of people don't know.
And he's funny. He's a funny person, which a lot of people don't know.
February 18th. Thank you so much.
February 18th. Thank you so much.
This was really, really fun, you guys.
This was really, really fun, you guys.
Call back anytime, okay?
Call back anytime, okay?
Bye.
Bye.
You too.
You too.
And, but the thing, it ended up being what made the show work because the way he put it, you know, the network thought of late night as like a vacant lot on the edge of town. They weren't going to pay attention to what was going on there. They weren't going to meddle. You know, he just got to do whatever the hell it felt like. And, and, But no notes, you know, no interference.
And, but the thing, it ended up being what made the show work because the way he put it, you know, the network thought of late night as like a vacant lot on the edge of town. They weren't going to pay attention to what was going on there. They weren't going to meddle. You know, he just got to do whatever the hell it felt like. And, and, But no notes, you know, no interference.
Yeah, I think he thought they were probably not even watching.
Yeah, I think he thought they were probably not even watching.
Well, I guess I had several simultaneous reactions. You know, the journalist in me was watching and my head exploding because there were so many things that were fictionalized or, you know, five years worth of events were kind of crammed into one night.
Well, I guess I had several simultaneous reactions. You know, the journalist in me was watching and my head exploding because there were so many things that were fictionalized or, you know, five years worth of events were kind of crammed into one night.
But I did think that it captured some of, as you guys know, you've lived this, just some of the nail-biting, knife-edge chaos that I think gives the show, continues to fuel the show. It's funny, I talked to some of the current People at the show now, some of the writers and cast, and they were indignant about it.
But I did think that it captured some of, as you guys know, you've lived this, just some of the nail-biting, knife-edge chaos that I think gives the show, continues to fuel the show. It's funny, I talked to some of the current People at the show now, some of the writers and cast, and they were indignant about it.
They said that it was sort of like watching somebody screw up your song at a karaoke bar or something. They were feeling proprietary about it. What did you guys think?
They said that it was sort of like watching somebody screw up your song at a karaoke bar or something. They were feeling proprietary about it. What did you guys think?
I mean, I found it enjoyable to watch. It kind of, you know, it felt like the Poseidon adventure or something. It was almost like an adventure flick.
I mean, I found it enjoyable to watch. It kind of, you know, it felt like the Poseidon adventure or something. It was almost like an adventure flick.
Other people I know told me they had similar reaction to mine at the very end when it comes off and they do the Wolverine sketch and Chevy comes out and says, live from New York, it's Saturday night. I mean, I kind of teared up a little bit because it made you realize... How improbable the whole show was and how close it came to not happening. It could easily have not happened.
Other people I know told me they had similar reaction to mine at the very end when it comes off and they do the Wolverine sketch and Chevy comes out and says, live from New York, it's Saturday night. I mean, I kind of teared up a little bit because it made you realize... How improbable the whole show was and how close it came to not happening. It could easily have not happened.
That was real.
That was real.
They were hammering those bricks in the day of the first show. And of course, the old timers on the crew
They were hammering those bricks in the day of the first show. And of course, the old timers on the crew
looked at eugene lee the designer you know who wanted brought in old oak doors and bricks and they said what the fuck are you doing you know we just use cyclorama walls and you know the way it used to be in old variety shows where instead of a set you'd have like you know a window frame or a tree in a pot yeah suggests a park but lauren's idea was that you wanted this hard wall reality and um
looked at eugene lee the designer you know who wanted brought in old oak doors and bricks and they said what the fuck are you doing you know we just use cyclorama walls and you know the way it used to be in old variety shows where instead of a set you'd have like you know a window frame or a tree in a pot yeah suggests a park but lauren's idea was that you wanted this hard wall reality and um
Well, one thing I was just going to say to, you know, we were talking about the improbability of it and how those people weren't famous. It's one of the things that was fascinating for me to learn is Lauren had trouble hiring people. Like who wanted to be on this late night show with this weird Canadian guy no one had never heard of. had ever heard of.
Well, one thing I was just going to say to, you know, we were talking about the improbability of it and how those people weren't famous. It's one of the things that was fascinating for me to learn is Lauren had trouble hiring people. Like who wanted to be on this late night show with this weird Canadian guy no one had never heard of. had ever heard of.
And, you know, Chevy almost didn't come on because he was doing a play like a dinner theater with Paul Lind, you know, I like Broadway.
And, you know, Chevy almost didn't come on because he was doing a play like a dinner theater with Paul Lind, you know, I like Broadway.
And I love that Paul Lind stood in the way of another hire. Alan Zweibel almost didn't come to work because he had been offered a job in primetime writing the questions for Paul Lynde in the center square of Hollywood Squares.
And I love that Paul Lind stood in the way of another hire. Alan Zweibel almost didn't come to work because he had been offered a job in primetime writing the questions for Paul Lynde in the center square of Hollywood Squares.
Anything about Paul Lynde.
Anything about Paul Lynde.
Yeah, I was brought into the Brill Building in 83 by Tom Gammill, Gammill and Pross, who I'd gone to college with. And I met Jim Downey for the first time. And Jim hired me.
Yeah, I was brought into the Brill Building in 83 by Tom Gammill, Gammill and Pross, who I'd gone to college with. And I met Jim Downey for the first time. And Jim hired me.
And I sort of forgot, I had forgotten until recently the wonderful accent thing that everybody says, the eagles.
And I sort of forgot, I had forgotten until recently the wonderful accent thing that everybody says, the eagles.
So Jim, in a rare act of decisiveness, hired me that day. A rare act of decisiveness.
So Jim, in a rare act of decisiveness, hired me that day. A rare act of decisiveness.
To be his assistant.
To be his assistant.
I was 23 years old. My job chiefly consisted of ordering shitloads of food from the Carnegie Deli. I mean, if I didn't know what chicken in the pot was then, I knew it.
I was 23 years old. My job chiefly consisted of ordering shitloads of food from the Carnegie Deli. I mean, if I didn't know what chicken in the pot was then, I knew it.
And, you know, it was a great thing for me. I was really young. My mom had just died suddenly and I was kind of at sea. And so I got to go to this place with all these funny people every day. And they were so kind to me, you know, and think about it. I you know, it was really, it was fun.
And, you know, it was a great thing for me. I was really young. My mom had just died suddenly and I was kind of at sea. And so I got to go to this place with all these funny people every day. And they were so kind to me, you know, and think about it. I you know, it was really, it was fun.
So I didn't have a lot of one-on-one time with Lorne, but it was a, it was a pretty small operation and we were all just in this little, on the ninth floor of the, of the Brill building. So, yeah, I mean, I, I knew him a little bit. And again, I didn't realize that what I was witnessing was this soul crushing failure on his part. Yeah.
So I didn't have a lot of one-on-one time with Lorne, but it was a, it was a pretty small operation and we were all just in this little, on the ninth floor of the, of the Brill building. So, yeah, I mean, I, I knew him a little bit. And again, I didn't realize that what I was witnessing was this soul crushing failure on his part. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it wasn't, there were, I think we did like eight shows. And this is the thing that was really weird about it. Lauren had been used to working live, but the new show was taped on Thursday to air on Friday. So it brought out all of Lauren's you know, less genius impulses. I mean, people always say that, Lauren always says that the show doesn't go on because it's ready.
No, it wasn't, there were, I think we did like eight shows. And this is the thing that was really weird about it. Lauren had been used to working live, but the new show was taped on Thursday to air on Friday. So it brought out all of Lauren's you know, less genius impulses. I mean, people always say that, Lauren always says that the show doesn't go on because it's ready.
It goes on because it's 1130. And, you know, he needs that deadline. He needs a deadline. And that's when he gets into his kind of superpower mode, you know, the meeting between the dress rehearsal and air. But if you think about it, so the new show, we would be taping And he would yell, cut. And then they'd start a sketch over. And sometimes these tapings would last for five hours.
I do. I actually can't even show it to you. It's coming out.
And I remember the audience trying to leave in droves and Tom Gamble coming out and going like, you quitters. Sure.
And then they'd be up all night in the editing room, like splicing the takes together so that it leached all of the magic out of it. I mean, you guys know, because you've done it, the adrenaline of live really adds something. But imagine these comedy sketches pieced together. They had to add laugh tracks, right?
I remember knowing that it wasn't going well. And then I guess Brandon Tartikoff said to Lauren after, I can't remember, maybe eight shows, like, why don't you just not make the rest of them? And instead, and here's the novel idea, let's make Best Of the new show ours. Best Of.
That's right. Invented Saturday Night Live. We decided that Lorne has monomial status, you know, like Fidel or Madonna. You know, one name does it, Lorne.
That's popped in my head. That was my only time in television. I switched to journalism after that. But I stayed friends with all those writers, and a lot of them, including Steve Martin and Jack, have written for me at The New Yorker and other places I've worked. So I was always kind of in the... I would run into Lauren every five years and say hi. I think our daughters knew each other in school.
But... after the 40th anniversary, I just, well, I was an empty nester. I had this crazy idea. I was going to have a lot of time. And I just realized it really hit me how Lauren is like single-handedly responsible for what America thinks is funny, you know, across so many generations. And I thought he'd be a great subject for a book. So I, I sold a book first. I did a proposal.
There was a bidding war. I chose Random House. And then I went to see him in his office. And I said, because I know, you guys know Lauren, he likes to be out of the frame. He likes to be behind the curtain. He's not a very public facing guy. So I said, Lauren, I just signed a contract to write a book about you and the show. I don't need anything from you.
You know, I know your people and I'm kind of around, but if you wanted to talk to me and participate in it, it'll be a better and a richer book. And, you know, your legacy deserves that. And at first he looked like he was going to have a heart attack, you know, and then, you know, he said, you think about it. And we had a drink a couple of days later and he,
And he just started telling those stories. He just started talking. And so he was in. We didn't have any kind of agreement. He liked the fact that it was my book. It's not a vanity project that he had any approval over or anything. But he's smart enough to know that that's better, to have a real work of journalism about you and not some silly sort of puff book.
were benign i mean the book's coming out uh did he bury people what did he say about me oh dana you know what he said about you is it's a fucking show pony i mean you both of you um both of you are really knows me really up there in his pantheon No, I think that he, I think one of his reservations in the beginning, and this is very smart of him, he knows that people have very selective memory.
I don't know that he read deeply in those, like the oral history by Tom Shales and Jim Miller, but he certainly knew that over the years, people had put out versions of things that were wildly exaggerated. And he also knew that comedians, like to kind of embellish a story to make it right. That's a human thing.
So I think he, he was a little worried about that, but he, uh, you know, you know, he, I asked him lots of questions. He told me lots of stories. Uh, I'd say in the final two years of the reporting, what I was doing was I'd go over there on a Friday night and I'd say, okay, now what we're going to do is try to do some fact-checking.
Because a lot of times I'd have three or four different versions of an event. And I wanted him to try to be a tiebreaker. Like, what do you think actually happened here? And he was very honest. A lot of times he just said, God, I don't know. It was the 70s. Yeah. But I, but again, because I, you know, work at the New Yorker and we're fact checking and accuracy are important.
I worked really hard to try to get, get it, get to the bottom of things. And there were definitely things. And I brought all these things to him. There were definitely things that maybe stung a little bit or that he would have preferred not be in the book, but he never said like, Oh God, don't put that in the book. You know, he, he, he understood that. Yeah.
And God, I really respect the hell out of him for that. I mean, he knew I was going to write a real book. But the response among his world and his publicists and the people around him has been really positive. People think that I've really got him.
But, you know, I mean, going into something like this with a character as mysterious and feared as Lorne is, I always knew that there would be a contingent of people who said, like, oh, God, this is just a blowjob. And then there'd be other people who would say, this is a hatchet job, you know, right? So, I think, I mean, I really...
I'm in awe of Lorne and I really admire him and I admire and like him even more at the end of this process than I did at the beginning. I think what he's done is incredible. But you guys worked there when people would be bitching about this or that or, you know, it's a tough place, right?
It's like the people who say skits instead of sketches. It's an immediate disqualifier, right?
Huh.
Did you hang up with someone and go, wow, they were very... One person who blew my mind was Dan Aykroyd because he talks in these sentences. Have you guys ever talked to him?
You know what I mean? He talks in perfect paragraphs.
And he's so, I just would never have thought that he, you know, he's somebody who, and, and he's so thoughtful and uses such interesting words.
Well, it makes you realize that, you know, Beldar Conehead and Van Aykroyd are very similar, aren't they? Very close.
Well, you know, it is funny. One of the things that is so interesting about Lauren is that even though people would early in the show, as the show started getting successful and Lauren started getting richer with fancier friends, you know, people would bitch and moan about that. You know, Belushi referred to Lauren's fancy friends as the dead, you know, all those socialites and everything.
But I think that it was kind of interesting the way Lauren managed to parlay that into kind of a, comic character on the show. You know, like the Lorne that you see in the Smigel's TV Funhouse.
Get me back my show.
You know, he kind of... I feel like he almost... the Lorne Pasha producer character became a character on the show as much as Church Lady did.
And I remember, actually, I hope we hear more of your Lorne, David, today, but I remember asking Alec Baldwin at one point, who do you think does the best Lorne impersonation? And Alec just said, Lorne.
I think you're going to get your $38 worth. But no, everyone I talk to about Lorne, it's the same. They're all kind of trying to unriddle him. Conan says everybody thinks that Lorne has the secret. Part of that is that he isn't Unlike a lot of guys who got rich and famous in the 80s, you know, Barry Diller, Michael Milken or people like that. He's never been like a show-off workaholic.
You know, he's not one of those people who says, I get up at 4 a.m. and work out with a trainer. And then, you know, he does seem to know how to live. You know, he kind of invented work-life balance, you know.
But in terms of, you say, the marshmallow inside, I don't want to be too psychobabbly or too much of an easy answer, but a lot really does take you back to Lorne suddenly losing his father when he's 14 years old. He was completely... at sea. And his father collapsed one night after having a big argument with Lorne. He had a big fight. Father collapses, disappears into the hospital.
Lorne never sees him again. This gives you some indication of why you never see Lorne having a yelling match with anybody. He keeps it very low. I think at one point I say in the book that he speaks in the register of a man announcing a golf tournament. But I think that his whole world got smashed when he was 14. Then he had a bad year.
His mother thought he was going to be a juvenile delinquent, to use the term popular in the juvia. And he had to kind of He had to put it all together. I think it gave him a kind of resilience that helped him throughout his whole career. Just when I was starting the book, I interviewed Judd Apatow for the New Yorker Radio Hour. And he said something that really resonated with me.
When Judd was 14, his parents had a really bad divorce. And I think there were financial problems. His whole world kind of fell apart. And he told me that he definitely, because of that, like that's why he kind of early in his life abandoned his dreams of being a performer and instead became a director and producer.
Because, you know, when you're that guy, you've got the clipboard, you've got the call sheet, you're making sure that everything works. You're making sure that it's not going to be chaos. You're taking care of everything, right? As opposed to, you're a performer, you're just kind of strutting your own stuff.
I think, no, I think that's right. And Dana, I remember that when I interviewed you, you told me that when you showed up there, you thought you were probably going to be in the last cast of SNL. You thought it was on its way out and it was kind of a Hail Mary pass. And, you know, it's interesting because I met Lorne when he was perhaps at an even lower point. Even lower?
And I thought that that reminded me so much of Lorne, because he also was a performer early in his life. But he's determined to not let anything fall apart, because his own world fell apart when he was 14. That'll be $350 for that. Yeah.
I didn't know that until I started reporting this book. So every, you know, think about all the people who were just writers, Mulaney, Odenkirk, you know, those guys never got on stage.
Oh, well, there's definitely some people who are angry because, you know, it's one of the things I would say that maybe Lauren's biggest achievement was just creating this kind of culture with walls around it. You know, it's a tribe and you're in it or you're out of it. You know, it's like the Godfather kind of.
Who, you know, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons it was so painful for Conan when he lost The Tonight Show and went to TBS. He was kind of, you know, he had spent his whole career at NBC. And for a while, he had a little bit of a frosty rupture with Lauren. I think, you know, he was off the t-shirt list, you know. Stopped getting the Broadway video. You guys still get those?
The Broadway video t-shirts?
told Conan and his producer, Jeff Ross, oh, you don't need Lauren to be your EP. But I think that was a misstep. I think it probably would have been a good... Yeah.
Well, I worked for him when he did the new show, which was his one public spectacular flop. And I don't think people thought he was going to be coming back from that. And he also lost his own money in that show. It's strange it was such a flop because it was packed with talent. You know, the writer's room was incredible. Jim Downey, Jack Handy, George Meyer. Wow.
Yeah, I think that for Lauren, it's a relationship business, you know, and he really does. For that, yes. One of his old Canadian friends told me that even from the very beginning, you could tell he likes rabbit's feet. You know, he likes to have these familiar people around. Sure. I think one time he was kind of half joking, but he compared himself to, he said, I'm like Prometheus.
I'm the bringer of fire to these young people, the people he hires and whose life he changes. And he is aware that, he's very aware that you want to stay tight with the people who were there for you at the beginning. It's why he kept Bernie. I'm sure he was paying Bernie Brillstein 15%.
I don't think they were. Weren't they?
No, they weren't on it.
No, they weren't. They weren't.
But weren't they on Dana's show?
It could have been on a bad episode of SNL.
That's right out of Ed Sullivan.
That reminds me of when Lorne directed his show in college, UC Follies, which was very much like a proto-SNL thing. There was a Shakespeare parody in it that Lorne wrote about This is actually one of the first funny joke that I've ever, that Lorne Michaels wrote to my mind. There was a character in it named Hand in Brawl.
Instead of Fortinbra. Yeah. Handinbra. You get it?
It's pretty good.
It was the 50s, people.
John Candy did amazing work on that show. It's worth looking up Food Repair Man.
Belushi was on Newsweek.
for animal house and chevy was on new york magazine at the end of uh season one they called him the heir apparent to johnny carson and that's basically what started all kinds of splintering in that first cast because yeah you know the idea wasn't for one person to emerge as a star that kind of screwed everything up immediate problems that's always been there since then yeah yeah
You were asking about the new show. I just remembered one funny little conflict that happened there. I remember Gamelin Pross wrote a sketch called Time Truck. It was a time traveling truck. And it was for a show Kevin Kline was hosting. And the idea was Kevin Kline was supposed to play Abe Lincoln. They were supposed to go back in time to prevent Lincoln from getting shot.
But Lorne thought that it would be much funnier to have his close personal friend, Paul Simon, play Lincoln, just as a side gag. The writers are like, Paul Simon is not a comic actor.
It was Paul.
Yeah, well, you know, Jim Downey had a really smart way of describing this. He said, Lorne is a guy bad at term papers, great at tests. So if you give him an open-ended thing that he has to sit down and fiddle with, he's just never going to finish it. But when there's a deadline, when there's an alarm bell that goes off, that's... I think someone said the deadline is Lauren's cocaine.
It's the thing that gets him galvanized. Can you imagine if that show was taped? You would never have that moment at 10.30 where he's saying... But... Yeah, I think that he definitely has said to me a bunch of different times that he he was always his whole life reluctant to burn a bridge or to close a door. You know, he always felt like, Oh, if I do this, then I won't ever be able to do this.
I mean, he's, he, and he also told me a story, this kind of related. He told me it's a real memory of once his father taking him to a diner when he was a little boy and saying, just order anything you want off the menu. So he ordered a hot dog and a hamburger and a grilled cheese and onion rings and French fries. And, You know, couldn't eat at all.
And then his father said, let this be a lesson to you. You know, your eyes are bigger than your stomach. Now, I don't know how Lauren converted that into a lesson about comedy.
But he did. And I think that if you think about that plate full of junk food at the diner, it's not unlike what the show is like Saturday going into, you know, they still have way more than they can use.
And it's chopping it down.
Right, right, right, right.
Well, I thought it was, you know, a lot of people talk about these different rules that Lorne has about comedy, these Lorne-isms. And I think all the comedy ones are interesting, but it was also really interesting for me to hear how many of them were just about like how to live your life.
You know, so many people talked about how Lorne would say, buy yourself an apartment that you think you can't afford. Because, you know, then you'll come home after a hard day at work and you'll go, wow, who lives here? And you'll go, wow, I live here.
No, he said that to me too, and I totally get it. I like it. Yeah. But it was also, I spent so much time hanging out there that it was really interesting for me to see, he's so patient kind of with the millennials and some of the snowflakey sensibilities. But one day he said something that really cracked me up. This is in the book.
I mean, I have a theory.
We were walking in the theater district and we walked past the Mean Girls marquee. And he had just got tickets for his friend Margaret Trudeau to go. But he was really mad because one of the leads had called in sick because she had to take her dog to the vet. The dog had eaten glue or something. And he just said, if it was Patti LuPone, the dog would be dead. Yeah.
I'm going to press record. He loved, oh, sure.
Lauren loved variety TV. You know, he grew up watching, you know, Sid Caesar and your show shows and all that stuff. And when he went to LA in the sixties and seventies, he just bounced around from one karate variety show to the next, you know, Perry Como, Burns and Schreiber. What about Burns and Schreiber where he met his wife? But, but, um,
Yeah. No, he has a lot of things like that that can kind of close off discussion. Like he'll say, it'll get there, you know, or he'll say it knows what it is. Stuff like that. Yeah. Really good, good things. Yeah.
I thought it was also interesting that even though, you know, in that meeting between dress and air, he really is like a general, you know, and that's, that's the time at which he famously yelled at Bob Odenkirk once. Odenkirk, if you talk again, I'll break your fucking legs, you know, but mostly that's when he's most confrontational because there's no time left.
Right, but even though that is his moment, he rarely forces somebody to change something. I mean, writers are always telling me.
Yes, he'll give you the note. He'll say maybe this, maybe that, but he isn't going to say you have to change the ending. He lets it belong to the writers, which is so unusual.
Yeah.
But he might say, as David was just saying, he might say, well, do you think it's working? Yeah, stuff like that.
Do you think it's working? But Dana, this is reminding me, what David just said is the story you told me about the time he thought church lady got too dirty with the football players. Yeah.
You know, that superior dance thing. I mean, I didn't know he didn't like that because, boy, I think that's so funny.
The thing is, he liked the form, but he thought that it was like stuck in the 50s. You know, the people writing those shows were guys who had written for radio. And his big idea was to take that format and bring it into the modern world, you know. Movies were cool. You had Terrence Malick and Robert Altman. Music was cool. But television was like a really weird backwater.
Yes, she became a signature. Because I know Conan told me that Or maybe Lorne told me, maybe they both told me, rare instance of everybody agreeing that Lorne was always telling Conan to get rid of that string dance thing that he did, you know, where he would touch his nipples and go, yeah, Lorne hated that. But Conan stuck with it and it worked.
You know, there are people, you know, people, I guess.
Right. Well, Mark McKinney told me that at the original, at the initial read through of the kids in the hall series, uh, The one thing that Lauren just didn't like, didn't understand was the, I'm crushing your head guy. And that when Mark, and you know that sketch.
When Mark first read it, Lauren said like, oh, so it's a funny voice thing, you know, but he didn't.
Dana, you can say that better than me. But then when he saw it, when he saw that it was a visual, you know, like that, then he got it and he liked it. So again, you have to have, you really have to have a sense of yourself, I guess, right? Because a more of a fading violet kind of performer would have just said, okay, we'll cut that sketch.
So many people told me about how they would come off stage and just feeling like they really killed. And, you know, then in the Monday meeting, he wouldn't talk about that, but he would say, you know, like. Nora, you were breathtaking as the fourth waitress. That kind of thing.
The Cowbell one is great. We've got to watch that. It's a whole documentary.
You were great in it, Dana.
Well, it took me so long to write it. Only 10 years. This wasn't part of the plan.
It really worked. And I'd say, I mean, it definitely works. And especially because so much of the hoopla, so much of the other stuff, it's like snippets of sketches. But my hope is that people really don't know that much about Lorne. The comedy cognoscenti know that he's Obi-Wan Kenobi and everything else. But I think that the greater world doesn't know
So he was the first person who said, let's make variety TV something that has something to do with what people in their 20s are like. Let's put drugs on screen.
how complicated and fascinating and strange and brilliant he is. And, you know, I hope, as you were saying, Dan, I hope I'm kind of able to explain that a little bit.
Yeah, I think that's a really good question because I know there was a time in the 90s when he was trying to do the changeover between the Hartman cast to the Sandler cast. He was hiring a lot of people. I thought it was maybe just a
ease the you know create a buffer um and then there was like some big budget cut back and he had to get rid of a bunch of them but yeah i i don't know the answer to that unless and i'm speculating here unless it's in a diversity effort you know to just try to get a more diverse cast but i don't think it serves the show because i think that there's so many people you're kind of who's that you don't know for sure you don't know for sure it's too hard people
What was yours, David? What was the thing that made you feel like... God, it took a long time.
And the assistants, yeah.
You know, the thing about the huge cast... It's even harder now, Dana. And when I was hanging around there a few years back, the cast would also, they would let you know. I mean, of course, it's thrilling for them when geniuses like you and Alec and everybody come in to play these cameos. But during the first Trump administration, you have all these stars coming in. Yeah.
And if you were in the cast, you might be pissed.
Well, I firmly believe... I don't think he's going to just say, over and out. You know, he's never missed a show. He's never missed a show. I think they'd have to carry him out of there in a stretcher. But I don't think that any of... I don't buy any of the replacement theories. I don't think Tina or Seth or I can't see any of them doing it.
What I think is the likelier idea, and I hope this doesn't sound too McKinsey, you know, but the way I see it, Lauren is completely essential two days of the week. He has to be there during read through because he really pays attention to the room.
And then he picks the show after that with his deputy's help. And then Saturday, when he's sitting there under the bleachers.
And so I think he has this great team of people who could do the other stuff. And if he came in, was wheeled in on Wednesday afternoon and on Friday and on Saturday evening.
Yeah, I think that's right. And all those people, Doyle and Kenward and Higgins, they really know him, so they can give a pretty good approximation.
But there's no one could do what he does under the bleachers. I mean, when I'm sitting there under the bleachers with him, and you guys, I'm sure you've done this, right? And he's I mean, the funniest one, I was there for the Jonah Hill show and Maggie Rogers, who was then just starting out as a singer, comes out on stage at dress wearing this big red caftan and no shoes.
And Lauren just goes, barefoot? Where's she from? A place with roads? He was so mad. Yeah.
He seems very, you know, he's very with it and alert. And I've never seen him sick. You know, he's taking good care of himself.
Well, one thing he did tell me when the Reitman movie came out, you know, that was sort of the beginning of you know, like his anonymity being blown in a way. I mean, he, he told me he didn't see it. I mean, who knows, who knows if he did.
But he said, he said, I just feel like I've lost control of my life. It's like as a 50th approach, I think he's really excited about the show and he's excited about seeing everybody. He loves everybody. But he does feel, I mean, even to some extent with a book, it's just like he's kind of stepping out. The Reitman movie put him center stage. This book puts him center stage. It's a shift for him.
I mean, the other thing that Lorne will say is that when he was pitching a show like SNL for years and nobody wanted it. And what happened is that they needed something in late night on SN, you know, on NBC to replace Carson's reruns. And Lauren had never thought of late night.
And he's funny. He's a funny person, which a lot of people don't know.
February 18th. Thank you so much.
This was really, really fun, you guys.
Call back anytime, okay?
Bye.
You too.
And, but the thing, it ended up being what made the show work because the way he put it, you know, the network thought of late night as like a vacant lot on the edge of town. They weren't going to pay attention to what was going on there. They weren't going to meddle. You know, he just got to do whatever the hell it felt like. And, and, But no notes, you know, no interference.
Yeah, I think he thought they were probably not even watching.
Well, I guess I had several simultaneous reactions. You know, the journalist in me was watching and my head exploding because there were so many things that were fictionalized or, you know, five years worth of events were kind of crammed into one night.
But I did think that it captured some of, as you guys know, you've lived this, just some of the nail-biting, knife-edge chaos that I think gives the show, continues to fuel the show. It's funny, I talked to some of the current People at the show now, some of the writers and cast, and they were indignant about it.
They said that it was sort of like watching somebody screw up your song at a karaoke bar or something. They were feeling proprietary about it. What did you guys think?
I mean, I found it enjoyable to watch. It kind of, you know, it felt like the Poseidon adventure or something. It was almost like an adventure flick.
Other people I know told me they had similar reaction to mine at the very end when it comes off and they do the Wolverine sketch and Chevy comes out and says, live from New York, it's Saturday night. I mean, I kind of teared up a little bit because it made you realize... How improbable the whole show was and how close it came to not happening. It could easily have not happened.
That was real.
They were hammering those bricks in the day of the first show. And of course, the old timers on the crew
looked at eugene lee the designer you know who wanted brought in old oak doors and bricks and they said what the fuck are you doing you know we just use cyclorama walls and you know the way it used to be in old variety shows where instead of a set you'd have like you know a window frame or a tree in a pot yeah suggests a park but lauren's idea was that you wanted this hard wall reality and um
Well, one thing I was just going to say to, you know, we were talking about the improbability of it and how those people weren't famous. It's one of the things that was fascinating for me to learn is Lauren had trouble hiring people. Like who wanted to be on this late night show with this weird Canadian guy no one had never heard of. had ever heard of.
And, you know, Chevy almost didn't come on because he was doing a play like a dinner theater with Paul Lind, you know, I like Broadway.
And I love that Paul Lind stood in the way of another hire. Alan Zweibel almost didn't come to work because he had been offered a job in primetime writing the questions for Paul Lynde in the center square of Hollywood Squares.
Anything about Paul Lynde.
Yeah, I was brought into the Brill Building in 83 by Tom Gammill, Gammill and Pross, who I'd gone to college with. And I met Jim Downey for the first time. And Jim hired me.
And I sort of forgot, I had forgotten until recently the wonderful accent thing that everybody says, the eagles.
So Jim, in a rare act of decisiveness, hired me that day. A rare act of decisiveness.
To be his assistant.
I was 23 years old. My job chiefly consisted of ordering shitloads of food from the Carnegie Deli. I mean, if I didn't know what chicken in the pot was then, I knew it.
And, you know, it was a great thing for me. I was really young. My mom had just died suddenly and I was kind of at sea. And so I got to go to this place with all these funny people every day. And they were so kind to me, you know, and think about it. I you know, it was really, it was fun.
So I didn't have a lot of one-on-one time with Lorne, but it was a, it was a pretty small operation and we were all just in this little, on the ninth floor of the, of the Brill building. So, yeah, I mean, I, I knew him a little bit. And again, I didn't realize that what I was witnessing was this soul crushing failure on his part. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it wasn't, there were, I think we did like eight shows. And this is the thing that was really weird about it. Lauren had been used to working live, but the new show was taped on Thursday to air on Friday. So it brought out all of Lauren's you know, less genius impulses. I mean, people always say that, Lauren always says that the show doesn't go on because it's ready.
Last week.
Last week.
It was just about a decade. Yeah, just about a decade.
It was just about a decade. Yeah, just about a decade.
I did, and I recognize how unusual that was, and I think it's worked for me. Well, basically, after the 40th anniversary 10 years ago, I started thinking about the show and the enormous impact of Lorne himself. Nobody has been more responsible for what makes generations of Americans laugh, what we all think is funny. And, you know, it was a huge legacy.
I did, and I recognize how unusual that was, and I think it's worked for me. Well, basically, after the 40th anniversary 10 years ago, I started thinking about the show and the enormous impact of Lorne himself. Nobody has been more responsible for what makes generations of Americans laugh, what we all think is funny. And, you know, it was a huge legacy.
And I knew Lorne a little bit because I worked for him briefly in 1984 on The New Show, which was his one spectacular public failure, his attempt to do SNL in primetime. And I was just a kid. I was a munchkin then, you know, but I had a front row seat to this interesting situation. And I made a lot of friends there, even though I switched to journalism, I kept in touch with all those people.
And I knew Lorne a little bit because I worked for him briefly in 1984 on The New Show, which was his one spectacular public failure, his attempt to do SNL in primetime. And I was just a kid. I was a munchkin then, you know, but I had a front row seat to this interesting situation. And I made a lot of friends there, even though I switched to journalism, I kept in touch with all those people.
So I would see Lorne maybe every eight or 10 years. And We always said hi. And so I decided, I knew Lorne wouldn't say yes to having a book written about him. So what I did is I wrote a proposal, sent it around. I was surprised by the interest it generated. There was a big bidding war. I signed a deal with Random House. I had not promised them Lorne's involvement.
So I would see Lorne maybe every eight or 10 years. And We always said hi. And so I decided, I knew Lorne wouldn't say yes to having a book written about him. So what I did is I wrote a proposal, sent it around. I was surprised by the interest it generated. There was a big bidding war. I signed a deal with Random House. I had not promised them Lorne's involvement.
And then I wrote a note to Lorne and I said, I'd love to come see you in your office next So I went to see him and I said, Lauren, I've just signed a deal to write a book about you and the show. I don't need anything from you because, you know, I'm connected in your world. But if you would like to talk to me, it'll be a bigger and better and richer book, you know, which your legacy deserves.
And then I wrote a note to Lorne and I said, I'd love to come see you in your office next So I went to see him and I said, Lauren, I've just signed a deal to write a book about you and the show. I don't need anything from you because, you know, I'm connected in your world. But if you would like to talk to me, it'll be a bigger and better and richer book, you know, which your legacy deserves.
And, you know, the truth is he looked like he was going to faint. Yeah. He was surprised and he doesn't like to be surprised, as you know, if you've read the book. But he was incredibly polite, as he always is. And we chatted about this and that for a while. And he said, let me give it some thought. And so a few days later, I followed up and we met for a drink at a bar in a hotel.
And, you know, the truth is he looked like he was going to faint. Yeah. He was surprised and he doesn't like to be surprised, as you know, if you've read the book. But he was incredibly polite, as he always is. And we chatted about this and that for a while. And he said, let me give it some thought. And so a few days later, I followed up and we met for a drink at a bar in a hotel.
I thought we were gonna be negotiating. That's that it would maybe be like, well, this and that. But as often happens with Lorne, people say that sometimes you sit down with Lorne and he starts a conversation and you're like, wait a minute, did I miss the previous conversation? Like you'll just kind of leap ahead. And that's what happened. We sat there. He was drinking his Belvedere on the rocks.
I thought we were gonna be negotiating. That's that it would maybe be like, well, this and that. But as often happens with Lorne, people say that sometimes you sit down with Lorne and he starts a conversation and you're like, wait a minute, did I miss the previous conversation? Like you'll just kind of leap ahead. And that's what happened. We sat there. He was drinking his Belvedere on the rocks.
And he just started telling stories about his childhood, about his parents. And I realized, oh, he's going to do this. You know, I didn't have a notepad or a tape recorder. So I would run to the ladies room and write stuff down so I didn't forget it. And, you know, he asked nothing of me. There were no terms. There was no deal. He just... I think, you know, he liked me. He respected the magazine.
And he just started telling stories about his childhood, about his parents. And I realized, oh, he's going to do this. You know, I didn't have a notepad or a tape recorder. So I would run to the ladies room and write stuff down so I didn't forget it. And, you know, he asked nothing of me. There were no terms. There was no deal. He just... I think, you know, he liked me. He respected the magazine.
I think he knew there was going to be a book written about him. Better it be written by me than, you know, some kind of entertainment business hack who was going to turn something around really fast. And so then I just started visiting him in his office, you know, a couple Friday nights a month. And we would have these leisurely talks. And it was very civilized and really fun.
I think he knew there was going to be a book written about him. Better it be written by me than, you know, some kind of entertainment business hack who was going to turn something around really fast. And so then I just started visiting him in his office, you know, a couple Friday nights a month. And we would have these leisurely talks. And it was very civilized and really fun.
And, you know, talked to everyone else in his world. And The real charm of it for me was that I didn't have to deal with any publicists. That can really be the back-breaking part of a project like this. I think that once word went out that Lorne was talking to me, all these people just said, sure. Everyone loves to talk about Lorne.
And, you know, talked to everyone else in his world. And The real charm of it for me was that I didn't have to deal with any publicists. That can really be the back-breaking part of a project like this. I think that once word went out that Lorne was talking to me, all these people just said, sure. Everyone loves to talk about Lorne.
So after we had done that for a year or so, then I realized, okay, if I'm gonna write this guy's biography, you want to avoid it being like a death march through the years. 1986 turned to 1987, turned to 1988. I'm a magazine editor, so I wanted some of that up close in the room material like you have in a magazine profile.
So after we had done that for a year or so, then I realized, okay, if I'm gonna write this guy's biography, you want to avoid it being like a death march through the years. 1986 turned to 1987, turned to 1988. I'm a magazine editor, so I wanted some of that up close in the room material like you have in a magazine profile.
I said, how about if I just come to the show one week and just stay at your elbow and watch everything so I can convey to people the magic and the insanity of how this show comes together every week. And I kind of related to it a little bit because it's not completely unlike the way we put together an issue of The New Yorker. We have a weekly deadline, a lot of crazy egomaniacs. And he liked me.
I said, how about if I just come to the show one week and just stay at your elbow and watch everything so I can convey to people the magic and the insanity of how this show comes together every week. And I kind of related to it a little bit because it's not completely unlike the way we put together an issue of The New Yorker. We have a weekly deadline, a lot of crazy egomaniacs. And he liked me.
And so I was able to sit there through all these very intense, usually confidential meetings and got to see all the complicated levers that he has to push and the egos that he has to solve. And it was... I sometimes said to my editor, this book could be published by Harvard Business School. I mean, it's a funny, interesting book, but it's a real management Bible, too. So...
And so I was able to sit there through all these very intense, usually confidential meetings and got to see all the complicated levers that he has to push and the egos that he has to solve. And it was... I sometimes said to my editor, this book could be published by Harvard Business School. I mean, it's a funny, interesting book, but it's a real management Bible, too. So...
Well, the first thing I'll say is certainly Lauren, neither Lauren nor I knew that it was going to take that much longer. Oh, interesting.
Well, the first thing I'll say is certainly Lauren, neither Lauren nor I knew that it was going to take that much longer. Oh, interesting.
I mean, I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, the book took this long just because it took this long. You know, I interviewed hundreds of people. I have a demanding day job. You know, I did that on the weekends, but still, I don't think, I don't think Lauren's that strategic. I don't, I don't think he's thinking like, oh, this will be some years. Yeah.
I mean, I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, the book took this long just because it took this long. You know, I interviewed hundreds of people. I have a demanding day job. You know, I did that on the weekends, but still, I don't think, I don't think Lauren's that strategic. I don't, I don't think he's thinking like, oh, this will be some years. Yeah.
I think he just felt like he, again, it was a great honor for me that he just trusted me. And I did say to him at the beginning of that week, I said, I know how this goes. If somebody blurts something out that's really controversial or disgraces themselves or some confidential thing happens that you would like to be off the record, let's check in at the end of each day and you can tell me.
I think he just felt like he, again, it was a great honor for me that he just trusted me. And I did say to him at the beginning of that week, I said, I know how this goes. If somebody blurts something out that's really controversial or disgraces themselves or some confidential thing happens that you would like to be off the record, let's check in at the end of each day and you can tell me.
That's the way at the magazine we would maybe deal with it if we had a journalist visiting at a meeting or something. But he never did. He never said, oh, you know, when so and so blurted out, blah, blah, blah. Let's let's erase that. Oh, interesting. He never did.
That's the way at the magazine we would maybe deal with it if we had a journalist visiting at a meeting or something. But he never did. He never said, oh, you know, when so and so blurted out, blah, blah, blah. Let's let's erase that. Oh, interesting. He never did.
And, you know, but again, I think it's that, you know, he respected me as a journalist and and knew that I wasn't going to, you know, I wasn't out to hang anybody or burn the place down. And so. And I'll tell you the truth. I mean, there were a handful of things, particularly the Saturday night, the party after the show where people were wandering around, you know, a little blitz.
And, you know, but again, I think it's that, you know, he respected me as a journalist and and knew that I wasn't going to, you know, I wasn't out to hang anybody or burn the place down. And so. And I'll tell you the truth. I mean, there were a handful of things, particularly the Saturday night, the party after the show where people were wandering around, you know, a little blitz.
You know, I mean, just because I'm a, you know, I'm a good journalist, but I'm also not out to nail anybody. And I think I probably protected a couple of people here and there. But but the book is really true to what happened and to my experience. And I, as I said, I felt honored by being trusted that way.
You know, I mean, just because I'm a, you know, I'm a good journalist, but I'm also not out to nail anybody. And I think I probably protected a couple of people here and there. But but the book is really true to what happened and to my experience. And I, as I said, I felt honored by being trusted that way.
Yes, it's true that he has always had a policy that there isn't much to be gained by talking to the press. You can be quoted out of context, you know, all these things can happen. And they did feel burned by Belushi, I'm sorry, by Wired. A lot of people, including Jim Belushi, told me that they felt that they had been misquoted in the Woodward book and that things were taken out of context.
Yes, it's true that he has always had a policy that there isn't much to be gained by talking to the press. You can be quoted out of context, you know, all these things can happen. And they did feel burned by Belushi, I'm sorry, by Wired. A lot of people, including Jim Belushi, told me that they felt that they had been misquoted in the Woodward book and that things were taken out of context.
You know, I mean, that kind of, that happens a lot in this business. I, um, I'm not in a position to fact-check Woodward's book, but I was really careful. I've been working at The New Yorker for 30 years. I was really careful in the research. I had a fact-checker check everything. I think that there was a level of comfort with how I was going to be doing it. But you're right.
You know, I mean, that kind of, that happens a lot in this business. I, um, I'm not in a position to fact-check Woodward's book, but I was really careful. I've been working at The New Yorker for 30 years. I was really careful in the research. I had a fact-checker check everything. I think that there was a level of comfort with how I was going to be doing it. But you're right.
I think that the only reason that he kind of went against his usual dictum, which is nothing to be gained by talking to the press, is that it was right after the 40th, the 40th anniversary, as you remember. It was a beautiful show. It was very emotional. I think Lorne was a little softened by it.
I think that the only reason that he kind of went against his usual dictum, which is nothing to be gained by talking to the press, is that it was right after the 40th, the 40th anniversary, as you remember. It was a beautiful show. It was very emotional. I think Lorne was a little softened by it.
And I think he felt it, that they were celebrating the 40th and Phil Hartman was gone and Belushi and Gilda and so many people and Tom Davis and And I think he thought, God, it's going to be even a smaller group at the 50th. I think he was, for the first time, really thinking about his legacy. And I just happened to kind of get him at the right time.
And I think he felt it, that they were celebrating the 40th and Phil Hartman was gone and Belushi and Gilda and so many people and Tom Davis and And I think he thought, God, it's going to be even a smaller group at the 50th. I think he was, for the first time, really thinking about his legacy. And I just happened to kind of get him at the right time.
And I definitely felt that he was reflective in a way that isn't maybe his norm. I mean, you've interviewed him, you've talked to him. He's not naturally that interior person. So I think that it was just good timing. He also, you know, I'll say he's, I think he's a little bit superstitious, which I love. And when we met that first time in his office,
And I definitely felt that he was reflective in a way that isn't maybe his norm. I mean, you've interviewed him, you've talked to him. He's not naturally that interior person. So I think that it was just good timing. He also, you know, I'll say he's, I think he's a little bit superstitious, which I love. And when we met that first time in his office,
You know, I told you he knew me from the 80s, but I told him something he didn't know, which is that when I was 16 in the during the first season of the show, I took the Metro North train in from Connecticut and was in the audience for one of the Elliot Gould shows, which was magic. And it was one of his favorite shows from that season.
You know, I told you he knew me from the 80s, but I told him something he didn't know, which is that when I was 16 in the during the first season of the show, I took the Metro North train in from Connecticut and was in the audience for one of the Elliot Gould shows, which was magic. And it was one of his favorite shows from that season.
And I think there is something that kind of that sparked something in his brain. It felt right to him.
And I think there is something that kind of that sparked something in his brain. It felt right to him.
Yeah, I mean, one of the things, Chris Rock was a great source, very smart guy. And he said, think about it, this guy has been hundreds, if not thousands of people's boss. And if that doesn't make you an expert on human behavior, you know, what does? I mean, he's almost like a shrink. He's seen so many people go through this weird crucible right, of change.
Yeah, I mean, one of the things, Chris Rock was a great source, very smart guy. And he said, think about it, this guy has been hundreds, if not thousands of people's boss. And if that doesn't make you an expert on human behavior, you know, what does? I mean, he's almost like a shrink. He's seen so many people go through this weird crucible right, of change.
You think about Bill Hader comes from Oklahoma in his early 20s. His only job had been working, you know, as an assistant on Iron Chef, right? And you see these people working And then they become famous overnight. You know, Lauren says he's the world's expert on watching people get famous. And very often he's fully aware there's like an asshole phase. You know, you become a big jerk for a while.
You think about Bill Hader comes from Oklahoma in his early 20s. His only job had been working, you know, as an assistant on Iron Chef, right? And you see these people working And then they become famous overnight. You know, Lauren says he's the world's expert on watching people get famous. And very often he's fully aware there's like an asshole phase. You know, you become a big jerk for a while.
Yeah, so he knows how to shepherd people through this. But in terms of like the management approach, I think that, I think it's largely intuitive. Like I, you know, I remember Judd Apatow hearing once about how when he was a 25 year old or 26 year old, young show runner working on Ben Stiller's Fox variety show in the 80s, which is a great show that got canceled right away. He was terrified.
Yeah, so he knows how to shepherd people through this. But in terms of like the management approach, I think that, I think it's largely intuitive. Like I, you know, I remember Judd Apatow hearing once about how when he was a 25 year old or 26 year old, young show runner working on Ben Stiller's Fox variety show in the 80s, which is a great show that got canceled right away. He was terrified.
He didn't know how to manage people. He was holed up in his office reading, you know, management for dummies, like trying to learn how to do it. Laura never did anything like that. I think he, a lot of it is intuitive. He's got great EQ, but also, and this was the fun part about researching the book, I mean, sometimes I think he's almost like a young character out of Dickens or something.
He didn't know how to manage people. He was holed up in his office reading, you know, management for dummies, like trying to learn how to do it. Laura never did anything like that. I think he, a lot of it is intuitive. He's got great EQ, but also, and this was the fun part about researching the book, I mean, sometimes I think he's almost like a young character out of Dickens or something.
Like every stop along the way, every bad job that he had, he nonetheless learned something important from it. Like you can see him going through the first 30 years of his life, gathering the little individual skills to becoming a producer. And especially his interactions with stars.
Like every stop along the way, every bad job that he had, he nonetheless learned something important from it. Like you can see him going through the first 30 years of his life, gathering the little individual skills to becoming a producer. And especially his interactions with stars.
Exactly. Yeah. And the other thing that's unusual about him is that not only is he good at dealing with those kinds of incandescent creative egos or narcissists, but at the same time, he's a guy who has the mellow confidence to be able to deal with the suits.
Exactly. Yeah. And the other thing that's unusual about him is that not only is he good at dealing with those kinds of incandescent creative egos or narcissists, but at the same time, he's a guy who has the mellow confidence to be able to deal with the suits.
You know, a lot of Conan O'Brien said to me, you know, in the Game of Thrones of show business, you know, Lauren will be the last one standing. And if you think about the number of, uh, administrations of NBC ownership he has outlived. Mike Schur, the SNL writer who's now created a lot of different shows, I quote him talking on a podcast once about what it's like to work for GE.
You know, a lot of Conan O'Brien said to me, you know, in the Game of Thrones of show business, you know, Lauren will be the last one standing. And if you think about the number of, uh, administrations of NBC ownership he has outlived. Mike Schur, the SNL writer who's now created a lot of different shows, I quote him talking on a podcast once about what it's like to work for GE.
GE owned the network for a long time. He quotes the network or pretends to quote a network saying something like, gee, how come our laser guided missile department is doing so much better than our fart joke division? Right. So you're working for people who are basically making toaster ovens, you know? Right. And he knows how to kind of ride it out when those people turn into pests.
GE owned the network for a long time. He quotes the network or pretends to quote a network saying something like, gee, how come our laser guided missile department is doing so much better than our fart joke division? Right. So you're working for people who are basically making toaster ovens, you know? Right. And he knows how to kind of ride it out when those people turn into pests.
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
It's kind of held before what happened, what Conan did, you know, with the tonight show when, when he made this social movement out of team, which Lauren hated. Yeah. That, that to me, that Lauren, that was like exactly what you don't do. You know, what you do do is you just keep your head down and, and ride it out.
It's kind of held before what happened, what Conan did, you know, with the tonight show when, when he made this social movement out of team, which Lauren hated. Yeah. That, that to me, that Lauren, that was like exactly what you don't do. You know, what you do do is you just keep your head down and, and ride it out.
And then stay on the air thing again, to look at the lessons that he garnered along the way in the, in the, in the sixties and seventies, when he was working in LA on variety shows, uh, You know, he was on Laugh-In, but he knew that the cooler show was the Smothers Brothers. That's where Steve Martin wrote and Rob Reiner. And he kind of wished he were on the Smothers Brothers.
And then stay on the air thing again, to look at the lessons that he garnered along the way in the, in the, in the sixties and seventies, when he was working in LA on variety shows, uh, You know, he was on Laugh-In, but he knew that the cooler show was the Smothers Brothers. That's where Steve Martin wrote and Rob Reiner. And he kind of wished he were on the Smothers Brothers.
But then the Smothers Brothers basically allowed themselves to become martyrs. They wouldn't let up on their Vietnam stuff. You know, they had Pete Seeger on singing Waste Deep in the Big Muddy. And the president called Bill Paley and got them taken off the air. And Lauren, I think always felt like, yeah, they did great material, but they didn't, you know, they didn't get to stay on the air.
But then the Smothers Brothers basically allowed themselves to become martyrs. They wouldn't let up on their Vietnam stuff. You know, they had Pete Seeger on singing Waste Deep in the Big Muddy. And the president called Bill Paley and got them taken off the air. And Lauren, I think always felt like, yeah, they did great material, but they didn't, you know, they didn't get to stay on the air.
And if you're not on the air, you're nowhere.
And if you're not on the air, you're nowhere.
Yeah, and he thought his TV life was over then. He thought, oh, I did my TV thing. Now I'm going to have my Mike Nichols moment. He always wanted to make a film like The Graduate, and he thought that was his destiny. His grandparents owned a movie theater. He grew up besotted with the movies. And what's interesting is that he was working on an adaptation of Pride and Prejudice.
Yeah, and he thought his TV life was over then. He thought, oh, I did my TV thing. Now I'm going to have my Mike Nichols moment. He always wanted to make a film like The Graduate, and he thought that was his destiny. His grandparents owned a movie theater. He grew up besotted with the movies. And what's interesting is that he was working on an adaptation of Pride and Prejudice.
He had bought the rights to Don DeLillo's oh gosh, you know, the one that Noah Baumbach just made, White Noise. And, you know, these are really highbrow pictures. They weren't like Animal House, which is what you might have expected him to do, you know, go in a bit of boffo comedy direction. So that didn't work out. And, um,
He had bought the rights to Don DeLillo's oh gosh, you know, the one that Noah Baumbach just made, White Noise. And, you know, these are really highbrow pictures. They weren't like Animal House, which is what you might have expected him to do, you know, go in a bit of boffo comedy direction. So that didn't work out. And, um,
The thing, the only thing he did during those years that brought him pleasure is he wrote Three Amigos with two of his best friends, you know, Steve Martin and Randy Newman.
The thing, the only thing he did during those years that brought him pleasure is he wrote Three Amigos with two of his best friends, you know, Steve Martin and Randy Newman.
And he described that to me as like the one time where he just felt like, this is what I always pictured it to be like, you know, like George S. Kaufman staying up all night with the Marx Brothers, drinking too much coffee and fixing the third act. And I think he realized that, you know, he doesn't, He doesn't want to sit alone in a room with a typewriter.
And he described that to me as like the one time where he just felt like, this is what I always pictured it to be like, you know, like George S. Kaufman staying up all night with the Marx Brothers, drinking too much coffee and fixing the third act. And I think he realized that, you know, he doesn't, He doesn't want to sit alone in a room with a typewriter.
He wants to be brainstorming with his friends. He likes a clubhouse. His whole life he's been looking for a tribe. And so that's what made him go back to SNL in 1985.
He wants to be brainstorming with his friends. He likes a clubhouse. His whole life he's been looking for a tribe. And so that's what made him go back to SNL in 1985.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, he was horribly in debt. He'd lost his own money on the new show. He had a mortgage, his apartment. I mean, the idea of Lorne...
Oh, he was horribly in debt. He'd lost his own money on the new show. He had a mortgage, his apartment. I mean, the idea of Lorne...
And financial distress was something that he, it almost reminds me of Scarlett O'Hara, I'll never be poor again, because when he was 14, his father died suddenly, and his whole life changed, and there was financial uncertainty, his mother was depressed, and he's one of those guys with catastrophic thinking who kind of lived his whole adult life to make sure that never happened to him again.
And financial distress was something that he, it almost reminds me of Scarlett O'Hara, I'll never be poor again, because when he was 14, his father died suddenly, and his whole life changed, and there was financial uncertainty, his mother was depressed, and he's one of those guys with catastrophic thinking who kind of lived his whole adult life to make sure that never happened to him again.
So when he was presented with the offer to come back and save SNL after five years away, First, he didn't know what to do. His pride felt a little wounded. Like, oh, is that just going backwards?
So when he was presented with the offer to come back and save SNL after five years away, First, he didn't know what to do. His pride felt a little wounded. Like, oh, is that just going backwards?
So it was, save your baby or we're going to kill it. And so he asked... for advice from two mentors. And he always had a lot of mentors in his life in the same way that he would go on to be everybody else's mentor. So the first one he asked was David Geffen, who was his first agent way back in the day. And Geffen said, you know, Lauren, you should not go back and take that job in New York.
So it was, save your baby or we're going to kill it. And so he asked... for advice from two mentors. And he always had a lot of mentors in his life in the same way that he would go on to be everybody else's mentor. So the first one he asked was David Geffen, who was his first agent way back in the day. And Geffen said, you know, Lauren, you should not go back and take that job in New York.
You know, you've done that. Someone who wants to be you should do that. And I love Lauren's response to that because it's very honest. He said to me, he said, well, you know, I always kind of liked being me. So then the second person he asked, much more sage, an older man, Mo Austin, who was the chairman of Warner Brothers Records. Mo was much more clear-eyed.
You know, you've done that. Someone who wants to be you should do that. And I love Lauren's response to that because it's very honest. He said to me, he said, well, you know, I always kind of liked being me. So then the second person he asked, much more sage, an older man, Mo Austin, who was the chairman of Warner Brothers Records. Mo was much more clear-eyed.
He said, look, you're great at that job. You love New York City. There are very few big entertainment jobs in New York City. It's a perfect fit. You should go back. And I think that the penny dropped and Lorne realized, yeah, I'm good at live television.
He said, look, you're great at that job. You love New York City. There are very few big entertainment jobs in New York City. It's a perfect fit. You should go back. And I think that the penny dropped and Lorne realized, yeah, I'm good at live television.
And Jim Downey, one of the longest serving head writers on the show, has a great way of summing up what he thinks Lorne's strengths are that make him so good at live TV. He said, Lorne's a guy, not that great at term papers, really good at tests. In other words, the hard deadline is necessary for him.
And Jim Downey, one of the longest serving head writers on the show, has a great way of summing up what he thinks Lorne's strengths are that make him so good at live TV. He said, Lorne's a guy, not that great at term papers, really good at tests. In other words, the hard deadline is necessary for him.
With movies, he could kind of noodle around with rewrites and never actually get to the end of it.
With movies, he could kind of noodle around with rewrites and never actually get to the end of it.
As he always says, the show goes on because it's 1130, no matter what.
As he always says, the show goes on because it's 1130, no matter what.
People have told me, and I'm pleased, but people have told me that when they're reading that section of the book, their heart starts pounding. And when you're in that room, and think about it, it's not a big room. This is the ninth floor office. Every square inch of the carpet, I mean, people are kneeling on their knees because there isn't even room to sit down, Indian style.
People have told me, and I'm pleased, but people have told me that when they're reading that section of the book, their heart starts pounding. And when you're in that room, and think about it, it's not a big room. This is the ninth floor office. Every square inch of the carpet, I mean, people are kneeling on their knees because there isn't even room to sit down, Indian style.
Everyone's crammed in there. It really is like a scene, they're about to go into battle, and And you can feel the tension. It's thrilling. And that's obviously what drives the adrenaline and the magic in the show, that tension. Because many people have critiqued it over the years and said, wait a minute, why don't we just pick the actual seven sketches on Wednesday?
Everyone's crammed in there. It really is like a scene, they're about to go into battle, and And you can feel the tension. It's thrilling. And that's obviously what drives the adrenaline and the magic in the show, that tension. Because many people have critiqued it over the years and said, wait a minute, why don't we just pick the actual seven sketches on Wednesday?
And then we don't have to have this whole Hunger Games rigmarole.
And then we don't have to have this whole Hunger Games rigmarole.
But I think Lauren knows that keeping that creative tension and the competition and the, that that is good for creativity.
But I think Lauren knows that keeping that creative tension and the competition and the, that that is good for creativity.
yeah it's it's steve higgins calls it like five-dimensional chess he's thinking yeah do i keep the host happy do i make sure like the show i was at you know i think one of the reasons that you know one of the sketches got canned it's just because it was these huge movie theater seats they were just too damn hard to get in and out of the doors so like next you know and um and it's like twenty thousand twenty thousand dollars down the drain the moment they say no thanks someone
yeah it's it's steve higgins calls it like five-dimensional chess he's thinking yeah do i keep the host happy do i make sure like the show i was at you know i think one of the reasons that you know one of the sketches got canned it's just because it was these huge movie theater seats they were just too damn hard to get in and out of the doors so like next you know and um and it's like twenty thousand twenty thousand dollars down the drain the moment they say no thanks someone
have time to get the prosthetic head on, you know? And there's so many things that, you know, All week, I mean, this probably is a decisive management choice. One of the things that's so cool is that all week long, Lorne is soliciting opinions from everybody. And not just the writers and the cast, but the costume assistants, the pages. He wants to hear from everybody.
have time to get the prosthetic head on, you know? And there's so many things that, you know, All week, I mean, this probably is a decisive management choice. One of the things that's so cool is that all week long, Lorne is soliciting opinions from everybody. And not just the writers and the cast, but the costume assistants, the pages. He wants to hear from everybody.
He likes to think of it as an egalitarian enterprise, that everyone is as necessary as everybody else. And I know that sometimes in meetings even, he has a sheet of paper and he'll jot down every time someone has spoken because he wants to make sure everybody in the room says something. And then, so he's metabolizing all those points of view all week.
He likes to think of it as an egalitarian enterprise, that everyone is as necessary as everybody else. And I know that sometimes in meetings even, he has a sheet of paper and he'll jot down every time someone has spoken because he wants to make sure everybody in the room says something. And then, so he's metabolizing all those points of view all week.
And then there's a moment after the dress rehearsal When he walks up this little cinder block staircase, it's like the least glamorous place in the building, up to his office. And I just thought of this now. It's almost like, do you watch Severance?
And then there's a moment after the dress rehearsal When he walks up this little cinder block staircase, it's like the least glamorous place in the building, up to his office. And I just thought of this now. It's almost like, do you watch Severance?
You know how they go in the elevator and then they go... It's like he goes up the staircase and he becomes the other guy. So then he's in his office and suddenly... he's not thinking about what everybody else says. It's just him.
You know how they go in the elevator and then they go... It's like he goes up the staircase and he becomes the other guy. So then he's in his office and suddenly... he's not thinking about what everybody else says. It's just him.
And then he goes upstairs, becomes Superman. And then he is the decider and everything that comes out of his mouth, like it's him, it's him, it's him, it's him. And so to see that transformation, like it is really, it's really interesting.
And then he goes upstairs, becomes Superman. And then he is the decider and everything that comes out of his mouth, like it's him, it's him, it's him, it's him. And so to see that transformation, like it is really, it's really interesting.
I know, I know. And I remember thinking, you know, Louisa, Louisa Carey and the amazing makeup and prosthetics guy, he worked all week on those heads.
I know, I know. And I remember thinking, you know, Louisa, Louisa Carey and the amazing makeup and prosthetics guy, he worked all week on those heads.
And Lorne wasn't completely getting it. First, he said, oh, I feel like it's just kind of Conehead's redux. And then he also didn't understand why Jonah kept being in profile, which he thought looked really awkward. And then somebody had to say, no, no, in Beavis and Butthead, you always see him in profile. But it just wasn't really gelling.
And Lorne wasn't completely getting it. First, he said, oh, I feel like it's just kind of Conehead's redux. And then he also didn't understand why Jonah kept being in profile, which he thought looked really awkward. And then somebody had to say, no, no, in Beavis and Butthead, you always see him in profile. But it just wasn't really gelling.
But yes, I mean, kudos to the writing staff that they hung on to that.
But yes, I mean, kudos to the writing staff that they hung on to that.
Well, I saw it in dress and I'll tell you, it was a whole lot better when Gosling did it.
Well, I saw it in dress and I'll tell you, it was a whole lot better when Gosling did it.
But you know, another thing that was fun to learn, like I didn't know that the cowbell sketch existed before Walken and that they did it. They tried to do it when Norm MacDonald hosted. And yet you can see like, can you imagine anyone but Walken doing that now? No.
But you know, another thing that was fun to learn, like I didn't know that the cowbell sketch existed before Walken and that they did it. They tried to do it when Norm MacDonald hosted. And yet you can see like, can you imagine anyone but Walken doing that now? No.
I think Phil Hartman. Definitely. I mean, and all of these people you've just mentioned, like they're, they're actors, you know, I mean, they're really in it. They can, yeah. You know, somebody described Ackroyd as the kind of guy who kind of zipped himself into a character and disappear into it.
I think Phil Hartman. Definitely. I mean, and all of these people you've just mentioned, like they're, they're actors, you know, I mean, they're really in it. They can, yeah. You know, somebody described Ackroyd as the kind of guy who kind of zipped himself into a character and disappear into it.
You know, very different from like the way Belushi performed, which is he's always a Belushi-esque character, you know.
You know, very different from like the way Belushi performed, which is he's always a Belushi-esque character, you know.
That's right. I think that among the women, I think... Kristen Wiig has to be, right? Kristen Wiig, definitely. And one of the things that's amazing about Kristen Wiig, and when I started re-watching the shows more carefully, you see that what she does that's different from a lot of comedy performers is... Her acting, everything she does is so small.
That's right. I think that among the women, I think... Kristen Wiig has to be, right? Kristen Wiig, definitely. And one of the things that's amazing about Kristen Wiig, and when I started re-watching the shows more carefully, you see that what she does that's different from a lot of comedy performers is... Her acting, everything she does is so small.
You know, she does so much with less, like just little movements of her eyes or even like if you look at her Denise character with the forehead, like it's so subtle.
You know, she does so much with less, like just little movements of her eyes or even like if you look at her Denise character with the forehead, like it's so subtle.
Yeah, yeah, no, no, I think definitely. I mean, I think Kate McKinnon is a great actor. I think Jan Hooks was just incredible. And she also tends to, I mean, of course... She gets shoved under the rug.
Yeah, yeah, no, no, I think definitely. I mean, I think Kate McKinnon is a great actor. I think Jan Hooks was just incredible. And she also tends to, I mean, of course... She gets shoved under the rug.
Well, one of the things that I loved getting, because I hadn't really gotten it until I spent a whole lot of time there, is that the thing is that all of them, at the end of the day, they're just theater kids. They're all people who did Guys and Dolls in high school. Even like Lorne, there's a bit in the book where Lorraine Newman described how
Well, one of the things that I loved getting, because I hadn't really gotten it until I spent a whole lot of time there, is that the thing is that all of them, at the end of the day, they're just theater kids. They're all people who did Guys and Dolls in high school. Even like Lorne, there's a bit in the book where Lorraine Newman described how
once she was with him in the seventies and she had just had a bad breakup and he, and Lauren launched into that song from West side story. Forget that boy. Yeah.
once she was with him in the seventies and she had just had a bad breakup and he, and Lauren launched into that song from West side story. Forget that boy. Yeah.
Like the idea, you know, I mean, I, my, I have two daughters who were theater kids, so I'm very familiar with this type, but all of them, you know, I remember seeing Colin Firth interviewed once about how much he loved doing, you know, the scene in ABBA where he's in the jumpsuit and the, and the platform shoes, because everybody was an actor. They just want to do that, you know? And, um,
Like the idea, you know, I mean, I, my, I have two daughters who were theater kids, so I'm very familiar with this type, but all of them, you know, I remember seeing Colin Firth interviewed once about how much he loved doing, you know, the scene in ABBA where he's in the jumpsuit and the, and the platform shoes, because everybody was an actor. They just want to do that, you know? And, um,
It was also very interesting to hear Lorne talk about, just to see with all of them how, you know, the audience is always projecting onto SNL. You know, they want it to be a political show or an anarchist collective or whatever, but it's really show business. It's just show business. And that's why
It was also very interesting to hear Lorne talk about, just to see with all of them how, you know, the audience is always projecting onto SNL. You know, they want it to be a political show or an anarchist collective or whatever, but it's really show business. It's just show business. And that's why
often when you see these scenes shot backstage, you'll look down the hall and you'll see a couple of showgirls, a man dressed as Abe Lincoln and a llama. You know, it's like that scene. I don't know if you're as much of a Beatles nut as I am, but like in Hard Day's Night, there's that scene in the theater where John Lennon's going down the stairs and he runs into a showgirl with a headdress.
often when you see these scenes shot backstage, you'll look down the hall and you'll see a couple of showgirls, a man dressed as Abe Lincoln and a llama. You know, it's like that scene. I don't know if you're as much of a Beatles nut as I am, but like in Hard Day's Night, there's that scene in the theater where John Lennon's going down the stairs and he runs into a showgirl with a headdress.
And like, yeah, even the Beatles, it's just showbiz. There's something I kind of love about that.
And like, yeah, even the Beatles, it's just showbiz. There's something I kind of love about that.
Well, I think that I think he really likes and respects the ones who come in there and survey the scene and figure out, OK, this is how I can be effective here. Like plenty of them. And again, they're young. You know, there's no orientation. There's no instruction packet like it's sink or swim. You know, you have to figure out, OK, who can write for me? Who can I write with?
Well, I think that I think he really likes and respects the ones who come in there and survey the scene and figure out, OK, this is how I can be effective here. Like plenty of them. And again, they're young. You know, there's no orientation. There's no instruction packet like it's sink or swim. You know, you have to figure out, OK, who can write for me? Who can I write with?
How am I going to get on the air? And And the ones who can sort that out are the ones who are really going to make it.
How am I going to get on the air? And And the ones who can sort that out are the ones who are really going to make it.
There are a few shortcuts. And this began with Bailey Murray when he started on the show in the second season. He had a good first show and then he just kind of disappeared. Yeah. People didn't like him. Audience didn't like him because they thought he was a Chevy replacement and he wasn't so cute as Chevy. But, you know, he was playing like second cop parts.
There are a few shortcuts. And this began with Bailey Murray when he started on the show in the second season. He had a good first show and then he just kind of disappeared. Yeah. People didn't like him. Audience didn't like him because they thought he was a Chevy replacement and he wasn't so cute as Chevy. But, you know, he was playing like second cop parts.
So Lorne and he devised this idea that Billy would come on the show behind a desk and just address the audience and just say, hey, I'm not cutting it here. I don't know what's the matter, people. Don't you like me? And he talked about his dead father and everything. But that did it. You know, he connected with the audience. They really liked him and he was in.
So Lorne and he devised this idea that Billy would come on the show behind a desk and just address the audience and just say, hey, I'm not cutting it here. I don't know what's the matter, people. Don't you like me? And he talked about his dead father and everything. But that did it. You know, he connected with the audience. They really liked him and he was in.
And that kind of began this tradition of, One of the time-honored ways that new cast members kind of get their footing is to go on Weekend Update as themselves and say their name into the camera. I mean, think of Adam Sandler when he did his first Thanksgiving song. He was not really thriving so much on the show, but then he came in. He was himself. He looked like himself.
And that kind of began this tradition of, One of the time-honored ways that new cast members kind of get their footing is to go on Weekend Update as themselves and say their name into the camera. I mean, think of Adam Sandler when he did his first Thanksgiving song. He was not really thriving so much on the show, but then he came in. He was himself. He looked like himself.
He did his funny little song. Everybody knew, oh, I know that guy now.
He did his funny little song. Everybody knew, oh, I know that guy now.
He took off. So that works, you know. And the week I was there, Melissa Villasenor had one on update and that she broke through. So, you know, there are a lot of different kind of shortcuts. Some people are just so good at it. You know, look at Kenan Thompson. He's been there forever. He just...
He took off. So that works, you know. And the week I was there, Melissa Villasenor had one on update and that she broke through. So, you know, there are a lot of different kind of shortcuts. Some people are just so good at it. You know, look at Kenan Thompson. He's been there forever. He just...
you know i think he recognizes it as a good thing lauren will often say that you know agents people's agents and managers are the menace because they'll suddenly start getting like movie offers and they'll say hey get out of this place you got to leave you know it's a it's time to leave and and lauren you know does a lot of sidebar conversations with these people and what he what he says another one of his co-ends is you know make them
you know i think he recognizes it as a good thing lauren will often say that you know agents people's agents and managers are the menace because they'll suddenly start getting like movie offers and they'll say hey get out of this place you got to leave you know it's a it's time to leave and and lauren you know does a lot of sidebar conversations with these people and what he what he says another one of his co-ends is you know make them
let them build a bridge that's strong enough so they can walk across it and walk away.
let them build a bridge that's strong enough so they can walk across it and walk away.
Yeah. And there are so many of them. And some of them, what I love is some of them actually can't figure out what the hell I mean. And writers and casts spend years talking about them. And one that a lot of people mentioned to me, it's something he would say, well, you know, there's people who build the house and there's people who buy the house and you have to figure out which one you are.
Yeah. And there are so many of them. And some of them, what I love is some of them actually can't figure out what the hell I mean. And writers and casts spend years talking about them. And one that a lot of people mentioned to me, it's something he would say, well, you know, there's people who build the house and there's people who buy the house and you have to figure out which one you are.
And everyone is like, what the hell does that mean?
And everyone is like, what the hell does that mean?
And you have to walk away. Yeah. And I think it was, you know, when he started the show and had the original Not Ready for Primetime players, they were just kind of supposed to be in the background. Nobody was supposed to become a star. You know, no one was supposed to become famous.
And you have to walk away. Yeah. And I think it was, you know, when he started the show and had the original Not Ready for Primetime players, they were just kind of supposed to be in the background. Nobody was supposed to become a star. You know, no one was supposed to become famous.
So when suddenly Chevy was famous and he was on the cover of New York Magazine, that totally messed up the ecosystem. It created... you know, it was a loss of innocence to use one of Lauren's favorite terms. And everyone got jealous.
So when suddenly Chevy was famous and he was on the cover of New York Magazine, that totally messed up the ecosystem. It created... you know, it was a loss of innocence to use one of Lauren's favorite terms. And everyone got jealous.
And so it was very painful for him to see this tribe, this family fractured. And then, but when Chevy did go, as painful as it was, again, this was one of these lessons that he had to internalize. He realized, okay, this is going to happen again and again and again. And so he sort of inured himself to it. But he also realized that, you know, like George Steinbrenner or like any sports...
And so it was very painful for him to see this tribe, this family fractured. And then, but when Chevy did go, as painful as it was, again, this was one of these lessons that he had to internalize. He realized, okay, this is going to happen again and again and again. And so he sort of inured himself to it. But he also realized that, you know, like George Steinbrenner or like any sports...
You have to keep bringing in rookies. You have to seed the team. And that's something he learned the hard way. But that's how he's kept it going for 50 years. They're always new people.
You have to keep bringing in rookies. You have to seed the team. And that's something he learned the hard way. But that's how he's kept it going for 50 years. They're always new people.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, he says, I think somewhere in the, at least one place he says in the book, agents are morons, you know?
I mean, he says, I think somewhere in the, at least one place he says in the book, agents are morons, you know?
And the thing they all hate more than anything is when agents get tickets to the show and they're in the audience. I mean, people have told me, but, Because they're so jaded. I mean, you want the real fans. You don't want an agent. So you'll look up at the balcony and you'll see a bunch of CAA agents and their dates asleep.
And the thing they all hate more than anything is when agents get tickets to the show and they're in the audience. I mean, people have told me, but, Because they're so jaded. I mean, you want the real fans. You don't want an agent. So you'll look up at the balcony and you'll see a bunch of CAA agents and their dates asleep.
But about the Steinbrenner thing.
But about the Steinbrenner thing.
And this I found myself wondering if this had something to do with your affinity for the show. You know, Lorne, he is a sports guy. I mean, loves the Yankees, goes to the Knicks, is a big hockey guy. And he uses a lot of sports metaphors all the time. You know, he uses a lot of baseball metaphors. Yeah.
And this I found myself wondering if this had something to do with your affinity for the show. You know, Lorne, he is a sports guy. I mean, loves the Yankees, goes to the Knicks, is a big hockey guy. And he uses a lot of sports metaphors all the time. You know, he uses a lot of baseball metaphors. Yeah.
When Will Ferrell was talking to me about Lauren's style, he said, you know, Lauren's like, he's like a baseball manager. He knows you got to keep the highs not too high and the lows not too low because it's a long season. And a lot of people, you know, use sports talk to talk about how the show works.
When Will Ferrell was talking to me about Lauren's style, he said, you know, Lauren's like, he's like a baseball manager. He knows you got to keep the highs not too high and the lows not too low because it's a long season. And a lot of people, you know, use sports talk to talk about how the show works.
And the other thing people say is that the closest thing to SNL on television, because it's live, is sports.
And the other thing people say is that the closest thing to SNL on television, because it's live, is sports.
I know. Wow, that's a great marketing idea. Yeah.
I know. Wow, that's a great marketing idea. Yeah.
I think it's so much his whole life and his whole personality. I don't think he's going to leave there unless it's on a stretcher. And he always says that if producing is done well, you leave no fingerprints. And that's true. And that's sort of why he's been behind the curtain all these years. But at the same time, his fingerprints are on everything.
I think it's so much his whole life and his whole personality. I don't think he's going to leave there unless it's on a stretcher. And he always says that if producing is done well, you leave no fingerprints. And that's true. And that's sort of why he's been behind the curtain all these years. But at the same time, his fingerprints are on everything.
Every one of them has absorbed his gospel and his sense of values about the show, and not just about the show, but about how to live their lives. In addition to all of his comedy rules and axioms, he teaches them how to live, how to live in New York, how to order in a restaurant,
Every one of them has absorbed his gospel and his sense of values about the show, and not just about the show, but about how to live their lives. In addition to all of his comedy rules and axioms, he teaches them how to live, how to live in New York, how to order in a restaurant,
He's paying for like new teeth for cast members and all kinds of gifts he gives are so like you get the people have told me, oh, he gave me this really great luggage or Simon Pierce glassware. And you sort of feel like he's ushering them into the good life. I was with Jim Downey once when he opened this box. It was an Hermes box. big orange box. It was an Hermes sweater for his birthday.
He's paying for like new teeth for cast members and all kinds of gifts he gives are so like you get the people have told me, oh, he gave me this really great luggage or Simon Pierce glassware. And you sort of feel like he's ushering them into the good life. I was with Jim Downey once when he opened this box. It was an Hermes box. big orange box. It was an Hermes sweater for his birthday.
And he was so intimidated by, you know, he Googled it and saw how expensive it was. And he said, I have to get a safety deposit box for this.
And he was so intimidated by, you know, he Googled it and saw how expensive it was. And he said, I have to get a safety deposit box for this.
Yeah, I mean, again, that's the sort of keep the highs not too high, the lows not too low. I mean, there's a way in which all these people, they are his family members. He's recreated the family that, you know, he lost when his father suddenly died when he was a child. But there's also, you know, it's also business. I mean, he walks this very fine line.
Yeah, I mean, again, that's the sort of keep the highs not too high, the lows not too low. I mean, there's a way in which all these people, they are his family members. He's recreated the family that, you know, he lost when his father suddenly died when he was a child. But there's also, you know, it's also business. I mean, he walks this very fine line.
I did feel that, and I thought there was so much regret surrounding it. On both sides? I think so. I think there was real pain. I mean, Conan is always the first to say that if Lorne Michaels hadn't looked at him at one point and said, you, he would never have had this. And think about it, Conan wasn't even a performer. You know, he was a writer.
I did feel that, and I thought there was so much regret surrounding it. On both sides? I think so. I think there was real pain. I mean, Conan is always the first to say that if Lorne Michaels hadn't looked at him at one point and said, you, he would never have had this. And think about it, Conan wasn't even a performer. You know, he was a writer.
He could get a writer like this and give him this huge platform. And the thing that's so sort of sweet about it is, you know, I think there was a sort of a bit of a road not taken aspect of that for Lorne, because he started out as a comedy writer who maybe wanted to perform. But, you know, and Lorne exalts writers.
He could get a writer like this and give him this huge platform. And the thing that's so sort of sweet about it is, you know, I think there was a sort of a bit of a road not taken aspect of that for Lorne, because he started out as a comedy writer who maybe wanted to perform. But, you know, and Lorne exalts writers.
Right. I mean, I think the Lorne character is as big a character as Church Lady. So, yeah, he gave the keys to the kingdom to Conan. And I think Conan, you know, I think it's most people in the business feel that Conan and his camp made a tactical error when they did not insist that Lorne be made executive producer of The Tonight Show.
Right. I mean, I think the Lorne character is as big a character as Church Lady. So, yeah, he gave the keys to the kingdom to Conan. And I think Conan, you know, I think it's most people in the business feel that Conan and his camp made a tactical error when they did not insist that Lorne be made executive producer of The Tonight Show.
And I know those guys. I know, you know, went to college with Conan. I know Jeff Ross's manager. And I do think they have some regret about it. They were very young. They were very caught up in it. these big shots at NBC were saying to them, no, no, no, you don't need Lorne Michaels. You don't, you know. Yeah, you're going to do it in LA. You don't need Lorne, he's in New York.
And I know those guys. I know, you know, went to college with Conan. I know Jeff Ross's manager. And I do think they have some regret about it. They were very young. They were very caught up in it. these big shots at NBC were saying to them, no, no, no, you don't need Lorne Michaels. You don't, you know. Yeah, you're going to do it in LA. You don't need Lorne, he's in New York.
It was this activist NBC management at that time who didn't really, you know, they kind of wanted to elbow Lorne off the stage. So, but as Jeff told me, and I quote him in the book saying, you know what? We didn't jump in front of the truck for Lorne. So why should Lorne have jumped in front of the truck for us? And Lorne would never have admitted like,
It was this activist NBC management at that time who didn't really, you know, they kind of wanted to elbow Lorne off the stage. So, but as Jeff told me, and I quote him in the book saying, you know what? We didn't jump in front of the truck for Lorne. So why should Lorne have jumped in front of the truck for us? And Lorne would never have admitted like,
you know, having his feelings hurt or that they should have done it differently. But everyone in his camp feels like it was a faux pas.
you know, having his feelings hurt or that they should have done it differently. But everyone in his camp feels like it was a faux pas.
But the thing, the kind of beautiful thing at this point is Conan is now king of podcasts. He's doing so great. I'm so happy that Conan has landed where he has. And he and Lorne are on very, very good terms. It was great to see Conan at the anniversary show. And I think there's a lot of real, real honest, ongoing affection between the two of them.
But the thing, the kind of beautiful thing at this point is Conan is now king of podcasts. He's doing so great. I'm so happy that Conan has landed where he has. And he and Lorne are on very, very good terms. It was great to see Conan at the anniversary show. And I think there's a lot of real, real honest, ongoing affection between the two of them.
Like who else would think like that? Absolutely right. It's true. Who would have thought of that? No, because that was right after the sex tape. Rob Lowe was in disgrace.
Like who else would think like that? Absolutely right. It's true. Who would have thought of that? No, because that was right after the sex tape. Rob Lowe was in disgrace.
I think so too, but I think also it's that Lorne has unconsciously or not cultivated this mystery and power that makes everybody want his good opinion, want to do good work for him. And that is the secret. It's this power that he holds over these people.
I think so too, but I think also it's that Lorne has unconsciously or not cultivated this mystery and power that makes everybody want his good opinion, want to do good work for him. And that is the secret. It's this power that he holds over these people.
Yeah, I mean, Jon Hamm told me that there isn't a day that goes by where he doesn't think, what would Lorne do? And he curbs the impulse to pick up the phone and call Lorne and ask him over when it's really important. But a lot of these people live their lives that way.
Yeah, I mean, Jon Hamm told me that there isn't a day that goes by where he doesn't think, what would Lorne do? And he curbs the impulse to pick up the phone and call Lorne and ask him over when it's really important. But a lot of these people live their lives that way.
Well, one of the funny things Lauren said about it to me, he goes, he said, yeah, you know, it's the most American thing there is, making fun of the boss. And then he said, of course, they don't really do it much in Canada because nobody's that successful there. But yeah, I mean, see, that is consistent with
Well, one of the funny things Lauren said about it to me, he goes, he said, yeah, you know, it's the most American thing there is, making fun of the boss. And then he said, of course, they don't really do it much in Canada because nobody's that successful there. But yeah, I mean, see, that is consistent with
another one of his many theorems, which is the infinite monkey theorem, which is how he views the essence of comedy writing. It's that old joke about you put a thousand monkeys in a room with a bunch of typewriters, and eventually one of them will write Hamlet. There was a 60s comic named Stanley Myron Handelman who changed that joke to say, put the monkeys in the room with the typewriters.
another one of his many theorems, which is the infinite monkey theorem, which is how he views the essence of comedy writing. It's that old joke about you put a thousand monkeys in a room with a bunch of typewriters, and eventually one of them will write Hamlet. There was a 60s comic named Stanley Myron Handelman who changed that joke to say, put the monkeys in the room with the typewriters.
I went back a couple hours later, and they were just fooling around. Lauren thinks that there's this incredible wisdom in that and that that's what you do with comedy writers. That's why you have them writing all night long when their defenses are down, when maybe they're drunk. Their guard is down. Fatigue is your friend, he'll say, because you want them to be at their goofiest.
I went back a couple hours later, and they were just fooling around. Lauren thinks that there's this incredible wisdom in that and that that's what you do with comedy writers. That's why you have them writing all night long when their defenses are down, when maybe they're drunk. Their guard is down. Fatigue is your friend, he'll say, because you want them to be at their goofiest.
You don't want to be too self-conscious when you're writing comedy. It's like pure id, I guess. And I think he recognizes that all that time they spend making fun of him, it's like lubrication for comedy, you know, loosens them up. And Paul Appel even said it kind of helps you deal with the fear, you know, the fear of Lorne and the fear that you're not going to get on the air.
You don't want to be too self-conscious when you're writing comedy. It's like pure id, I guess. And I think he recognizes that all that time they spend making fun of him, it's like lubrication for comedy, you know, loosens them up. And Paul Appel even said it kind of helps you deal with the fear, you know, the fear of Lorne and the fear that you're not going to get on the air.
It makes you just sort of loosen up. And again, he's a smart enough manager of people to know that if that works for them, fine, you know. And he also told me, and I wish I'd kind of pushed harder on this. He said that he does this too, that he's a really good mimic of the people at the show. He just does it at home.
It makes you just sort of loosen up. And again, he's a smart enough manager of people to know that if that works for them, fine, you know. And he also told me, and I wish I'd kind of pushed harder on this. He said that he does this too, that he's a really good mimic of the people at the show. He just does it at home.
I guess. That's volume two.
I guess. That's volume two.
Well, I think a real turning point came after 9-11, you know, because the whole 90s, the mid 90s were a terrible time for him with almost getting fired by Don Ulmeier. And then the show picked up steam with all the great, you know, political debate stuff that Jim Downey wrote and everything.
Well, I think a real turning point came after 9-11, you know, because the whole 90s, the mid 90s were a terrible time for him with almost getting fired by Don Ulmeier. And then the show picked up steam with all the great, you know, political debate stuff that Jim Downey wrote and everything.
And then 9-11, it was the moment that I think the show emerged as a kind of an important American institution.
And then 9-11, it was the moment that I think the show emerged as a kind of an important American institution.
Yeah, I mean, it brought it back to its roots. This was a, you know, it was the first time in my life that America seemed to like New York, right?
Yeah, I mean, it brought it back to its roots. This was a, you know, it was the first time in my life that America seemed to like New York, right?
And New York suddenly was kind of buffed up again.
And New York suddenly was kind of buffed up again.
So, you know, the way he conceived of that moment with the firefighters and Mayor Giuliani, pre-disgrace, you know, and had Paul Simon sing that song, like he just had this producer's knack for navigating that moment, doing something that was so beautiful and profound and also funny. I mean, as he says in the latter part of my book when he's talking about doing the COVID show,
So, you know, the way he conceived of that moment with the firefighters and Mayor Giuliani, pre-disgrace, you know, and had Paul Simon sing that song, like he just had this producer's knack for navigating that moment, doing something that was so beautiful and profound and also funny. I mean, as he says in the latter part of my book when he's talking about doing the COVID show,
And, you know, you just always have to the show has to show up and you have to demonstrate, remind viewers that there's a decency to the show. And I think that it was that moment that the show and Lorne himself just kind of were, you know, it was kind of a Hall of Fame moment. They weren't going anywhere. He's never really been under threat since then.
And, you know, you just always have to the show has to show up and you have to demonstrate, remind viewers that there's a decency to the show. And I think that it was that moment that the show and Lorne himself just kind of were, you know, it was kind of a Hall of Fame moment. They weren't going anywhere. He's never really been under threat since then.
Some people told me, oh, I love Kate McKinnon singing that song. But I mean, I thought it was kind of wet. You know, I thought it just didn't work. Some people liked it. But again, I thought the reason I thought that was interesting is because it showed how finely calibrated his ability to kind of deal with the sort of millennial sensibilities on his staff are.
Some people told me, oh, I love Kate McKinnon singing that song. But I mean, I thought it was kind of wet. You know, I thought it just didn't work. Some people liked it. But again, I thought the reason I thought that was interesting is because it showed how finely calibrated his ability to kind of deal with the sort of millennial sensibilities on his staff are.
He knew he had to give them something. They wanted to do this. He didn't like it, but he let them have it. And it reminded me of a funny anecdote that I love in the book is I'm walking with him through the theater district. We passed the Mean Girls marquee. That's the show he produced with Tina Fey.
He knew he had to give them something. They wanted to do this. He didn't like it, but he let them have it. And it reminded me of a funny anecdote that I love in the book is I'm walking with him through the theater district. We passed the Mean Girls marquee. That's the show he produced with Tina Fey.
And he was disappointed because his friend Margaret Trudeau was in town and he got her tickets for that night. And he was angry because the lead actress had called in sick that day because her dog had eaten glue and she had to take the dog to the vet. So she wasn't going to be in the show. And Lauren just shook his head and he said, if it was Patti LuPone's dog, it would be dead. You know.
And he was disappointed because his friend Margaret Trudeau was in town and he got her tickets for that night. And he was angry because the lead actress had called in sick that day because her dog had eaten glue and she had to take the dog to the vet. So she wasn't going to be in the show. And Lauren just shook his head and he said, if it was Patti LuPone's dog, it would be dead. You know.
The idea that, you know, because he's a real showbiz guy. The show must go on. And the fact that his friend Mark Trudeau was going to have to see an understudy. I don't like that.
The idea that, you know, because he's a real showbiz guy. The show must go on. And the fact that his friend Mark Trudeau was going to have to see an understudy. I don't like that.
That's just what, yeah, I mean, he learned that after the first five years. And so again, he's just like this guy. He's got this lesson book that he, and he remembers. Think about the rest of us. And so many people we know, we repeat our mistakes. We do the same thing over and over. He doesn't. He somehow learns from his mistakes.
That's just what, yeah, I mean, he learned that after the first five years. And so again, he's just like this guy. He's got this lesson book that he, and he remembers. Think about the rest of us. And so many people we know, we repeat our mistakes. We do the same thing over and over. He doesn't. He somehow learns from his mistakes.
Of him?
Of him?
Gee, let me think. You know, I think that there are people who just feel that sometimes his aloofness can actually be cruel and cold. You know, there are definitely people who feel that way. There's the same number of people who say like, oh, you know, when my wife got sick, he called and fixed the insurance. And, you know, so it's both.
Gee, let me think. You know, I think that there are people who just feel that sometimes his aloofness can actually be cruel and cold. You know, there are definitely people who feel that way. There's the same number of people who say like, oh, you know, when my wife got sick, he called and fixed the insurance. And, you know, so it's both.
But I do think that that sort of icy management thing, which you, you know, there's the book deals in it. I think mostly that kind of peaked in the 90s. You know, you have Bob Odenkirk moaning about how, why the hell is this guy in charge and everything? But at the same time, you know, Odenkirk and Lorne are now good friends. I mean...
But I do think that that sort of icy management thing, which you, you know, there's the book deals in it. I think mostly that kind of peaked in the 90s. You know, you have Bob Odenkirk moaning about how, why the hell is this guy in charge and everything? But at the same time, you know, Odenkirk and Lorne are now good friends. I mean...
And what there's a lot of in Lauren's life, it's, you know, the way people, you know, in 12 step programs and like make amends, you know, Lauren gets a lot of letters from people 30 years later saying, I can't believe I was such a jerk when I worked for you. Now I know how hard your job is because I've had to, you know, be a director or manage people.
And what there's a lot of in Lauren's life, it's, you know, the way people, you know, in 12 step programs and like make amends, you know, Lauren gets a lot of letters from people 30 years later saying, I can't believe I was such a jerk when I worked for you. Now I know how hard your job is because I've had to, you know, be a director or manage people.
I think that's true. I think these anniversary shows mean a lot to him, but he isn't on a nostalgia trip. He is really in the moment. He's never like, oh, those were the days, it was better then. I think he probably thinks... The utility of all the fanfare over the 50th is to get more, get more viewers for the 51st and 52nd season. He's always charging ahead. He's thinking about the next cast.
I think that's true. I think these anniversary shows mean a lot to him, but he isn't on a nostalgia trip. He is really in the moment. He's never like, oh, those were the days, it was better then. I think he probably thinks... The utility of all the fanfare over the 50th is to get more, get more viewers for the 51st and 52nd season. He's always charging ahead. He's thinking about the next cast.
Earlier this season, you know, I was talking to him about how this current cast is really big. It's a big cast again.
Earlier this season, you know, I was talking to him about how this current cast is really big. It's a big cast again.
And he said something like, yeah, well, you know, it always takes like two or three years for the kind of new cast to sort of settle. And it just struck me that as he's about to settle 50th, he's thinking about he's thinking ahead. He's thinking about making the cast work. And I think that's part of the secret of it. You know, he doesn't he doesn't look back.
And he said something like, yeah, well, you know, it always takes like two or three years for the kind of new cast to sort of settle. And it just struck me that as he's about to settle 50th, he's thinking about he's thinking ahead. He's thinking about making the cast work. And I think that's part of the secret of it. You know, he doesn't he doesn't look back.
And again, why it was all the more special that when I talked to him right after the 40th, he was in the sort of rare sweet spot of thinking about 50th. the past and the future and his legacy. And I mean, I think there's a lot of warmth in him that he's letting come to the surface a little bit more now. And that is kind of lovely.
And again, why it was all the more special that when I talked to him right after the 40th, he was in the sort of rare sweet spot of thinking about 50th. the past and the future and his legacy. And I mean, I think there's a lot of warmth in him that he's letting come to the surface a little bit more now. And that is kind of lovely.
Yeah. Sarandos is one of those guys who sends him a father's day greeting, you know? Yeah, yeah. But it'll be interesting to see, right? Sarandos is behind this new, you know, Netflix's first foray into late night television with the John Mulaney show coming.
Yeah. Sarandos is one of those guys who sends him a father's day greeting, you know? Yeah, yeah. But it'll be interesting to see, right? Sarandos is behind this new, you know, Netflix's first foray into late night television with the John Mulaney show coming.
Yeah, I think that's right. I think at this point, there's so much, so many issues of respect and karma that nobody's going to try to, you know, nudge them off the stage that way.
Yeah, I think that's right. I think at this point, there's so much, so many issues of respect and karma that nobody's going to try to, you know, nudge them off the stage that way.
It was really fun.
It was really fun.
Well, and once I got to really know all those personalities, just to see, you know, somebody, Larry, I just did Lawrence O'Donnell's show and he said it was sort of like The Office, you know, like a workplace comedy.
Well, and once I got to really know all those personalities, just to see, you know, somebody, Larry, I just did Lawrence O'Donnell's show and he said it was sort of like The Office, you know, like a workplace comedy.
I mean, just seeing like the way he would manipulate Colin Jost this way and the way he would get Jonah Hill to not to shut up and the way he was just like, it's really interesting to watch.
I mean, just seeing like the way he would manipulate Colin Jost this way and the way he would get Jonah Hill to not to shut up and the way he was just like, it's really interesting to watch.
Last week.
It was just about a decade. Yeah, just about a decade.
I did, and I recognize how unusual that was, and I think it's worked for me. Well, basically, after the 40th anniversary 10 years ago, I started thinking about the show and the enormous impact of Lorne himself. Nobody has been more responsible for what makes generations of Americans laugh, what we all think is funny. And, you know, it was a huge legacy.
And I knew Lorne a little bit because I worked for him briefly in 1984 on The New Show, which was his one spectacular public failure, his attempt to do SNL in primetime. And I was just a kid. I was a munchkin then, you know, but I had a front row seat to this interesting situation. And I made a lot of friends there, even though I switched to journalism, I kept in touch with all those people.
So I would see Lorne maybe every eight or 10 years. And We always said hi. And so I decided, I knew Lorne wouldn't say yes to having a book written about him. So what I did is I wrote a proposal, sent it around. I was surprised by the interest it generated. There was a big bidding war. I signed a deal with Random House. I had not promised them Lorne's involvement.
And then I wrote a note to Lorne and I said, I'd love to come see you in your office next So I went to see him and I said, Lauren, I've just signed a deal to write a book about you and the show. I don't need anything from you because, you know, I'm connected in your world. But if you would like to talk to me, it'll be a bigger and better and richer book, you know, which your legacy deserves.
And, you know, the truth is he looked like he was going to faint. Yeah. He was surprised and he doesn't like to be surprised, as you know, if you've read the book. But he was incredibly polite, as he always is. And we chatted about this and that for a while. And he said, let me give it some thought. And so a few days later, I followed up and we met for a drink at a bar in a hotel.
I thought we were gonna be negotiating. That's that it would maybe be like, well, this and that. But as often happens with Lorne, people say that sometimes you sit down with Lorne and he starts a conversation and you're like, wait a minute, did I miss the previous conversation? Like you'll just kind of leap ahead. And that's what happened. We sat there. He was drinking his Belvedere on the rocks.
And he just started telling stories about his childhood, about his parents. And I realized, oh, he's going to do this. You know, I didn't have a notepad or a tape recorder. So I would run to the ladies room and write stuff down so I didn't forget it. And, you know, he asked nothing of me. There were no terms. There was no deal. He just... I think, you know, he liked me. He respected the magazine.
I think he knew there was going to be a book written about him. Better it be written by me than, you know, some kind of entertainment business hack who was going to turn something around really fast. And so then I just started visiting him in his office, you know, a couple Friday nights a month. And we would have these leisurely talks. And it was very civilized and really fun.
And, you know, talked to everyone else in his world. And The real charm of it for me was that I didn't have to deal with any publicists. That can really be the back-breaking part of a project like this. I think that once word went out that Lorne was talking to me, all these people just said, sure. Everyone loves to talk about Lorne.
So after we had done that for a year or so, then I realized, okay, if I'm gonna write this guy's biography, you want to avoid it being like a death march through the years. 1986 turned to 1987, turned to 1988. I'm a magazine editor, so I wanted some of that up close in the room material like you have in a magazine profile.
I said, how about if I just come to the show one week and just stay at your elbow and watch everything so I can convey to people the magic and the insanity of how this show comes together every week. And I kind of related to it a little bit because it's not completely unlike the way we put together an issue of The New Yorker. We have a weekly deadline, a lot of crazy egomaniacs. And he liked me.
And so I was able to sit there through all these very intense, usually confidential meetings and got to see all the complicated levers that he has to push and the egos that he has to solve. And it was... I sometimes said to my editor, this book could be published by Harvard Business School. I mean, it's a funny, interesting book, but it's a real management Bible, too. So...
Well, the first thing I'll say is certainly Lauren, neither Lauren nor I knew that it was going to take that much longer. Oh, interesting.
I mean, I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, the book took this long just because it took this long. You know, I interviewed hundreds of people. I have a demanding day job. You know, I did that on the weekends, but still, I don't think, I don't think Lauren's that strategic. I don't, I don't think he's thinking like, oh, this will be some years. Yeah.
I think he just felt like he, again, it was a great honor for me that he just trusted me. And I did say to him at the beginning of that week, I said, I know how this goes. If somebody blurts something out that's really controversial or disgraces themselves or some confidential thing happens that you would like to be off the record, let's check in at the end of each day and you can tell me.
That's the way at the magazine we would maybe deal with it if we had a journalist visiting at a meeting or something. But he never did. He never said, oh, you know, when so and so blurted out, blah, blah, blah. Let's let's erase that. Oh, interesting. He never did.
And, you know, but again, I think it's that, you know, he respected me as a journalist and and knew that I wasn't going to, you know, I wasn't out to hang anybody or burn the place down. And so. And I'll tell you the truth. I mean, there were a handful of things, particularly the Saturday night, the party after the show where people were wandering around, you know, a little blitz.
You know, I mean, just because I'm a, you know, I'm a good journalist, but I'm also not out to nail anybody. And I think I probably protected a couple of people here and there. But but the book is really true to what happened and to my experience. And I, as I said, I felt honored by being trusted that way.
Yes, it's true that he has always had a policy that there isn't much to be gained by talking to the press. You can be quoted out of context, you know, all these things can happen. And they did feel burned by Belushi, I'm sorry, by Wired. A lot of people, including Jim Belushi, told me that they felt that they had been misquoted in the Woodward book and that things were taken out of context.
You know, I mean, that kind of, that happens a lot in this business. I, um, I'm not in a position to fact-check Woodward's book, but I was really careful. I've been working at The New Yorker for 30 years. I was really careful in the research. I had a fact-checker check everything. I think that there was a level of comfort with how I was going to be doing it. But you're right.
I think that the only reason that he kind of went against his usual dictum, which is nothing to be gained by talking to the press, is that it was right after the 40th, the 40th anniversary, as you remember. It was a beautiful show. It was very emotional. I think Lorne was a little softened by it.
And I think he felt it, that they were celebrating the 40th and Phil Hartman was gone and Belushi and Gilda and so many people and Tom Davis and And I think he thought, God, it's going to be even a smaller group at the 50th. I think he was, for the first time, really thinking about his legacy. And I just happened to kind of get him at the right time.
And I definitely felt that he was reflective in a way that isn't maybe his norm. I mean, you've interviewed him, you've talked to him. He's not naturally that interior person. So I think that it was just good timing. He also, you know, I'll say he's, I think he's a little bit superstitious, which I love. And when we met that first time in his office,
You know, I told you he knew me from the 80s, but I told him something he didn't know, which is that when I was 16 in the during the first season of the show, I took the Metro North train in from Connecticut and was in the audience for one of the Elliot Gould shows, which was magic. And it was one of his favorite shows from that season.
And I think there is something that kind of that sparked something in his brain. It felt right to him.
Yeah, I mean, one of the things, Chris Rock was a great source, very smart guy. And he said, think about it, this guy has been hundreds, if not thousands of people's boss. And if that doesn't make you an expert on human behavior, you know, what does? I mean, he's almost like a shrink. He's seen so many people go through this weird crucible right, of change.
You think about Bill Hader comes from Oklahoma in his early 20s. His only job had been working, you know, as an assistant on Iron Chef, right? And you see these people working And then they become famous overnight. You know, Lauren says he's the world's expert on watching people get famous. And very often he's fully aware there's like an asshole phase. You know, you become a big jerk for a while.
Yeah, so he knows how to shepherd people through this. But in terms of like the management approach, I think that, I think it's largely intuitive. Like I, you know, I remember Judd Apatow hearing once about how when he was a 25 year old or 26 year old, young show runner working on Ben Stiller's Fox variety show in the 80s, which is a great show that got canceled right away. He was terrified.
He didn't know how to manage people. He was holed up in his office reading, you know, management for dummies, like trying to learn how to do it. Laura never did anything like that. I think he, a lot of it is intuitive. He's got great EQ, but also, and this was the fun part about researching the book, I mean, sometimes I think he's almost like a young character out of Dickens or something.
Like every stop along the way, every bad job that he had, he nonetheless learned something important from it. Like you can see him going through the first 30 years of his life, gathering the little individual skills to becoming a producer. And especially his interactions with stars.
Exactly. Yeah. And the other thing that's unusual about him is that not only is he good at dealing with those kinds of incandescent creative egos or narcissists, but at the same time, he's a guy who has the mellow confidence to be able to deal with the suits.
You know, a lot of Conan O'Brien said to me, you know, in the Game of Thrones of show business, you know, Lauren will be the last one standing. And if you think about the number of, uh, administrations of NBC ownership he has outlived. Mike Schur, the SNL writer who's now created a lot of different shows, I quote him talking on a podcast once about what it's like to work for GE.
GE owned the network for a long time. He quotes the network or pretends to quote a network saying something like, gee, how come our laser guided missile department is doing so much better than our fart joke division? Right. So you're working for people who are basically making toaster ovens, you know? Right. And he knows how to kind of ride it out when those people turn into pests.
Yes, yes.
It's kind of held before what happened, what Conan did, you know, with the tonight show when, when he made this social movement out of team, which Lauren hated. Yeah. That, that to me, that Lauren, that was like exactly what you don't do. You know, what you do do is you just keep your head down and, and ride it out.
And then stay on the air thing again, to look at the lessons that he garnered along the way in the, in the, in the sixties and seventies, when he was working in LA on variety shows, uh, You know, he was on Laugh-In, but he knew that the cooler show was the Smothers Brothers. That's where Steve Martin wrote and Rob Reiner. And he kind of wished he were on the Smothers Brothers.
But then the Smothers Brothers basically allowed themselves to become martyrs. They wouldn't let up on their Vietnam stuff. You know, they had Pete Seeger on singing Waste Deep in the Big Muddy. And the president called Bill Paley and got them taken off the air. And Lauren, I think always felt like, yeah, they did great material, but they didn't, you know, they didn't get to stay on the air.
And if you're not on the air, you're nowhere.
Yeah, and he thought his TV life was over then. He thought, oh, I did my TV thing. Now I'm going to have my Mike Nichols moment. He always wanted to make a film like The Graduate, and he thought that was his destiny. His grandparents owned a movie theater. He grew up besotted with the movies. And what's interesting is that he was working on an adaptation of Pride and Prejudice.
He had bought the rights to Don DeLillo's oh gosh, you know, the one that Noah Baumbach just made, White Noise. And, you know, these are really highbrow pictures. They weren't like Animal House, which is what you might have expected him to do, you know, go in a bit of boffo comedy direction. So that didn't work out. And, um,
The thing, the only thing he did during those years that brought him pleasure is he wrote Three Amigos with two of his best friends, you know, Steve Martin and Randy Newman.
And he described that to me as like the one time where he just felt like, this is what I always pictured it to be like, you know, like George S. Kaufman staying up all night with the Marx Brothers, drinking too much coffee and fixing the third act. And I think he realized that, you know, he doesn't, He doesn't want to sit alone in a room with a typewriter.
He wants to be brainstorming with his friends. He likes a clubhouse. His whole life he's been looking for a tribe. And so that's what made him go back to SNL in 1985.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, he was horribly in debt. He'd lost his own money on the new show. He had a mortgage, his apartment. I mean, the idea of Lorne...
And financial distress was something that he, it almost reminds me of Scarlett O'Hara, I'll never be poor again, because when he was 14, his father died suddenly, and his whole life changed, and there was financial uncertainty, his mother was depressed, and he's one of those guys with catastrophic thinking who kind of lived his whole adult life to make sure that never happened to him again.
So when he was presented with the offer to come back and save SNL after five years away, First, he didn't know what to do. His pride felt a little wounded. Like, oh, is that just going backwards?
So it was, save your baby or we're going to kill it. And so he asked... for advice from two mentors. And he always had a lot of mentors in his life in the same way that he would go on to be everybody else's mentor. So the first one he asked was David Geffen, who was his first agent way back in the day. And Geffen said, you know, Lauren, you should not go back and take that job in New York.
You know, you've done that. Someone who wants to be you should do that. And I love Lauren's response to that because it's very honest. He said to me, he said, well, you know, I always kind of liked being me. So then the second person he asked, much more sage, an older man, Mo Austin, who was the chairman of Warner Brothers Records. Mo was much more clear-eyed.
He said, look, you're great at that job. You love New York City. There are very few big entertainment jobs in New York City. It's a perfect fit. You should go back. And I think that the penny dropped and Lorne realized, yeah, I'm good at live television.
And Jim Downey, one of the longest serving head writers on the show, has a great way of summing up what he thinks Lorne's strengths are that make him so good at live TV. He said, Lorne's a guy, not that great at term papers, really good at tests. In other words, the hard deadline is necessary for him.
With movies, he could kind of noodle around with rewrites and never actually get to the end of it.
As he always says, the show goes on because it's 1130, no matter what.
People have told me, and I'm pleased, but people have told me that when they're reading that section of the book, their heart starts pounding. And when you're in that room, and think about it, it's not a big room. This is the ninth floor office. Every square inch of the carpet, I mean, people are kneeling on their knees because there isn't even room to sit down, Indian style.
Everyone's crammed in there. It really is like a scene, they're about to go into battle, and And you can feel the tension. It's thrilling. And that's obviously what drives the adrenaline and the magic in the show, that tension. Because many people have critiqued it over the years and said, wait a minute, why don't we just pick the actual seven sketches on Wednesday?
And then we don't have to have this whole Hunger Games rigmarole.
But I think Lauren knows that keeping that creative tension and the competition and the, that that is good for creativity.
yeah it's it's steve higgins calls it like five-dimensional chess he's thinking yeah do i keep the host happy do i make sure like the show i was at you know i think one of the reasons that you know one of the sketches got canned it's just because it was these huge movie theater seats they were just too damn hard to get in and out of the doors so like next you know and um and it's like twenty thousand twenty thousand dollars down the drain the moment they say no thanks someone
have time to get the prosthetic head on, you know? And there's so many things that, you know, All week, I mean, this probably is a decisive management choice. One of the things that's so cool is that all week long, Lorne is soliciting opinions from everybody. And not just the writers and the cast, but the costume assistants, the pages. He wants to hear from everybody.
He likes to think of it as an egalitarian enterprise, that everyone is as necessary as everybody else. And I know that sometimes in meetings even, he has a sheet of paper and he'll jot down every time someone has spoken because he wants to make sure everybody in the room says something. And then, so he's metabolizing all those points of view all week.
And then there's a moment after the dress rehearsal When he walks up this little cinder block staircase, it's like the least glamorous place in the building, up to his office. And I just thought of this now. It's almost like, do you watch Severance?
You know how they go in the elevator and then they go... It's like he goes up the staircase and he becomes the other guy. So then he's in his office and suddenly... he's not thinking about what everybody else says. It's just him.
And then he goes upstairs, becomes Superman. And then he is the decider and everything that comes out of his mouth, like it's him, it's him, it's him, it's him. And so to see that transformation, like it is really, it's really interesting.
I know, I know. And I remember thinking, you know, Louisa, Louisa Carey and the amazing makeup and prosthetics guy, he worked all week on those heads.
And Lorne wasn't completely getting it. First, he said, oh, I feel like it's just kind of Conehead's redux. And then he also didn't understand why Jonah kept being in profile, which he thought looked really awkward. And then somebody had to say, no, no, in Beavis and Butthead, you always see him in profile. But it just wasn't really gelling.
But yes, I mean, kudos to the writing staff that they hung on to that.
Well, I saw it in dress and I'll tell you, it was a whole lot better when Gosling did it.
But you know, another thing that was fun to learn, like I didn't know that the cowbell sketch existed before Walken and that they did it. They tried to do it when Norm MacDonald hosted. And yet you can see like, can you imagine anyone but Walken doing that now? No.
I think Phil Hartman. Definitely. I mean, and all of these people you've just mentioned, like they're, they're actors, you know, I mean, they're really in it. They can, yeah. You know, somebody described Ackroyd as the kind of guy who kind of zipped himself into a character and disappear into it.
You know, very different from like the way Belushi performed, which is he's always a Belushi-esque character, you know.
That's right. I think that among the women, I think... Kristen Wiig has to be, right? Kristen Wiig, definitely. And one of the things that's amazing about Kristen Wiig, and when I started re-watching the shows more carefully, you see that what she does that's different from a lot of comedy performers is... Her acting, everything she does is so small.
You know, she does so much with less, like just little movements of her eyes or even like if you look at her Denise character with the forehead, like it's so subtle.
Yeah, yeah, no, no, I think definitely. I mean, I think Kate McKinnon is a great actor. I think Jan Hooks was just incredible. And she also tends to, I mean, of course... She gets shoved under the rug.
Well, one of the things that I loved getting, because I hadn't really gotten it until I spent a whole lot of time there, is that the thing is that all of them, at the end of the day, they're just theater kids. They're all people who did Guys and Dolls in high school. Even like Lorne, there's a bit in the book where Lorraine Newman described how
once she was with him in the seventies and she had just had a bad breakup and he, and Lauren launched into that song from West side story. Forget that boy. Yeah.
Like the idea, you know, I mean, I, my, I have two daughters who were theater kids, so I'm very familiar with this type, but all of them, you know, I remember seeing Colin Firth interviewed once about how much he loved doing, you know, the scene in ABBA where he's in the jumpsuit and the, and the platform shoes, because everybody was an actor. They just want to do that, you know? And, um,
It was also very interesting to hear Lorne talk about, just to see with all of them how, you know, the audience is always projecting onto SNL. You know, they want it to be a political show or an anarchist collective or whatever, but it's really show business. It's just show business. And that's why
often when you see these scenes shot backstage, you'll look down the hall and you'll see a couple of showgirls, a man dressed as Abe Lincoln and a llama. You know, it's like that scene. I don't know if you're as much of a Beatles nut as I am, but like in Hard Day's Night, there's that scene in the theater where John Lennon's going down the stairs and he runs into a showgirl with a headdress.
And like, yeah, even the Beatles, it's just showbiz. There's something I kind of love about that.
Well, I think that I think he really likes and respects the ones who come in there and survey the scene and figure out, OK, this is how I can be effective here. Like plenty of them. And again, they're young. You know, there's no orientation. There's no instruction packet like it's sink or swim. You know, you have to figure out, OK, who can write for me? Who can I write with?
How am I going to get on the air? And And the ones who can sort that out are the ones who are really going to make it.
There are a few shortcuts. And this began with Bailey Murray when he started on the show in the second season. He had a good first show and then he just kind of disappeared. Yeah. People didn't like him. Audience didn't like him because they thought he was a Chevy replacement and he wasn't so cute as Chevy. But, you know, he was playing like second cop parts.
So Lorne and he devised this idea that Billy would come on the show behind a desk and just address the audience and just say, hey, I'm not cutting it here. I don't know what's the matter, people. Don't you like me? And he talked about his dead father and everything. But that did it. You know, he connected with the audience. They really liked him and he was in.
And that kind of began this tradition of, One of the time-honored ways that new cast members kind of get their footing is to go on Weekend Update as themselves and say their name into the camera. I mean, think of Adam Sandler when he did his first Thanksgiving song. He was not really thriving so much on the show, but then he came in. He was himself. He looked like himself.
He did his funny little song. Everybody knew, oh, I know that guy now.
He took off. So that works, you know. And the week I was there, Melissa Villasenor had one on update and that she broke through. So, you know, there are a lot of different kind of shortcuts. Some people are just so good at it. You know, look at Kenan Thompson. He's been there forever. He just...
you know i think he recognizes it as a good thing lauren will often say that you know agents people's agents and managers are the menace because they'll suddenly start getting like movie offers and they'll say hey get out of this place you got to leave you know it's a it's time to leave and and lauren you know does a lot of sidebar conversations with these people and what he what he says another one of his co-ends is you know make them
let them build a bridge that's strong enough so they can walk across it and walk away.
Yeah. And there are so many of them. And some of them, what I love is some of them actually can't figure out what the hell I mean. And writers and casts spend years talking about them. And one that a lot of people mentioned to me, it's something he would say, well, you know, there's people who build the house and there's people who buy the house and you have to figure out which one you are.
And everyone is like, what the hell does that mean?
And you have to walk away. Yeah. And I think it was, you know, when he started the show and had the original Not Ready for Primetime players, they were just kind of supposed to be in the background. Nobody was supposed to become a star. You know, no one was supposed to become famous.
So when suddenly Chevy was famous and he was on the cover of New York Magazine, that totally messed up the ecosystem. It created... you know, it was a loss of innocence to use one of Lauren's favorite terms. And everyone got jealous.
And so it was very painful for him to see this tribe, this family fractured. And then, but when Chevy did go, as painful as it was, again, this was one of these lessons that he had to internalize. He realized, okay, this is going to happen again and again and again. And so he sort of inured himself to it. But he also realized that, you know, like George Steinbrenner or like any sports...
You have to keep bringing in rookies. You have to seed the team. And that's something he learned the hard way. But that's how he's kept it going for 50 years. They're always new people.
Yes.
I mean, he says, I think somewhere in the, at least one place he says in the book, agents are morons, you know?
And the thing they all hate more than anything is when agents get tickets to the show and they're in the audience. I mean, people have told me, but, Because they're so jaded. I mean, you want the real fans. You don't want an agent. So you'll look up at the balcony and you'll see a bunch of CAA agents and their dates asleep.
But about the Steinbrenner thing.
And this I found myself wondering if this had something to do with your affinity for the show. You know, Lorne, he is a sports guy. I mean, loves the Yankees, goes to the Knicks, is a big hockey guy. And he uses a lot of sports metaphors all the time. You know, he uses a lot of baseball metaphors. Yeah.
When Will Ferrell was talking to me about Lauren's style, he said, you know, Lauren's like, he's like a baseball manager. He knows you got to keep the highs not too high and the lows not too low because it's a long season. And a lot of people, you know, use sports talk to talk about how the show works.
And the other thing people say is that the closest thing to SNL on television, because it's live, is sports.
I know. Wow, that's a great marketing idea. Yeah.
I think it's so much his whole life and his whole personality. I don't think he's going to leave there unless it's on a stretcher. And he always says that if producing is done well, you leave no fingerprints. And that's true. And that's sort of why he's been behind the curtain all these years. But at the same time, his fingerprints are on everything.
Every one of them has absorbed his gospel and his sense of values about the show, and not just about the show, but about how to live their lives. In addition to all of his comedy rules and axioms, he teaches them how to live, how to live in New York, how to order in a restaurant,
He's paying for like new teeth for cast members and all kinds of gifts he gives are so like you get the people have told me, oh, he gave me this really great luggage or Simon Pierce glassware. And you sort of feel like he's ushering them into the good life. I was with Jim Downey once when he opened this box. It was an Hermes box. big orange box. It was an Hermes sweater for his birthday.
And he was so intimidated by, you know, he Googled it and saw how expensive it was. And he said, I have to get a safety deposit box for this.
Yeah, I mean, again, that's the sort of keep the highs not too high, the lows not too low. I mean, there's a way in which all these people, they are his family members. He's recreated the family that, you know, he lost when his father suddenly died when he was a child. But there's also, you know, it's also business. I mean, he walks this very fine line.
I did feel that, and I thought there was so much regret surrounding it. On both sides? I think so. I think there was real pain. I mean, Conan is always the first to say that if Lorne Michaels hadn't looked at him at one point and said, you, he would never have had this. And think about it, Conan wasn't even a performer. You know, he was a writer.
He could get a writer like this and give him this huge platform. And the thing that's so sort of sweet about it is, you know, I think there was a sort of a bit of a road not taken aspect of that for Lorne, because he started out as a comedy writer who maybe wanted to perform. But, you know, and Lorne exalts writers.
Right. I mean, I think the Lorne character is as big a character as Church Lady. So, yeah, he gave the keys to the kingdom to Conan. And I think Conan, you know, I think it's most people in the business feel that Conan and his camp made a tactical error when they did not insist that Lorne be made executive producer of The Tonight Show.
And I know those guys. I know, you know, went to college with Conan. I know Jeff Ross's manager. And I do think they have some regret about it. They were very young. They were very caught up in it. these big shots at NBC were saying to them, no, no, no, you don't need Lorne Michaels. You don't, you know. Yeah, you're going to do it in LA. You don't need Lorne, he's in New York.
It was this activist NBC management at that time who didn't really, you know, they kind of wanted to elbow Lorne off the stage. So, but as Jeff told me, and I quote him in the book saying, you know what? We didn't jump in front of the truck for Lorne. So why should Lorne have jumped in front of the truck for us? And Lorne would never have admitted like,
you know, having his feelings hurt or that they should have done it differently. But everyone in his camp feels like it was a faux pas.
But the thing, the kind of beautiful thing at this point is Conan is now king of podcasts. He's doing so great. I'm so happy that Conan has landed where he has. And he and Lorne are on very, very good terms. It was great to see Conan at the anniversary show. And I think there's a lot of real, real honest, ongoing affection between the two of them.
Like who else would think like that? Absolutely right. It's true. Who would have thought of that? No, because that was right after the sex tape. Rob Lowe was in disgrace.
I think so too, but I think also it's that Lorne has unconsciously or not cultivated this mystery and power that makes everybody want his good opinion, want to do good work for him. And that is the secret. It's this power that he holds over these people.
Yeah, I mean, Jon Hamm told me that there isn't a day that goes by where he doesn't think, what would Lorne do? And he curbs the impulse to pick up the phone and call Lorne and ask him over when it's really important. But a lot of these people live their lives that way.
Well, one of the funny things Lauren said about it to me, he goes, he said, yeah, you know, it's the most American thing there is, making fun of the boss. And then he said, of course, they don't really do it much in Canada because nobody's that successful there. But yeah, I mean, see, that is consistent with
another one of his many theorems, which is the infinite monkey theorem, which is how he views the essence of comedy writing. It's that old joke about you put a thousand monkeys in a room with a bunch of typewriters, and eventually one of them will write Hamlet. There was a 60s comic named Stanley Myron Handelman who changed that joke to say, put the monkeys in the room with the typewriters.
I went back a couple hours later, and they were just fooling around. Lauren thinks that there's this incredible wisdom in that and that that's what you do with comedy writers. That's why you have them writing all night long when their defenses are down, when maybe they're drunk. Their guard is down. Fatigue is your friend, he'll say, because you want them to be at their goofiest.
You don't want to be too self-conscious when you're writing comedy. It's like pure id, I guess. And I think he recognizes that all that time they spend making fun of him, it's like lubrication for comedy, you know, loosens them up. And Paul Appel even said it kind of helps you deal with the fear, you know, the fear of Lorne and the fear that you're not going to get on the air.
It makes you just sort of loosen up. And again, he's a smart enough manager of people to know that if that works for them, fine, you know. And he also told me, and I wish I'd kind of pushed harder on this. He said that he does this too, that he's a really good mimic of the people at the show. He just does it at home.
I guess. That's volume two.
Well, I think a real turning point came after 9-11, you know, because the whole 90s, the mid 90s were a terrible time for him with almost getting fired by Don Ulmeier. And then the show picked up steam with all the great, you know, political debate stuff that Jim Downey wrote and everything.
And then 9-11, it was the moment that I think the show emerged as a kind of an important American institution.
Yeah, I mean, it brought it back to its roots. This was a, you know, it was the first time in my life that America seemed to like New York, right?
And New York suddenly was kind of buffed up again.
So, you know, the way he conceived of that moment with the firefighters and Mayor Giuliani, pre-disgrace, you know, and had Paul Simon sing that song, like he just had this producer's knack for navigating that moment, doing something that was so beautiful and profound and also funny. I mean, as he says in the latter part of my book when he's talking about doing the COVID show,
And, you know, you just always have to the show has to show up and you have to demonstrate, remind viewers that there's a decency to the show. And I think that it was that moment that the show and Lorne himself just kind of were, you know, it was kind of a Hall of Fame moment. They weren't going anywhere. He's never really been under threat since then.
Some people told me, oh, I love Kate McKinnon singing that song. But I mean, I thought it was kind of wet. You know, I thought it just didn't work. Some people liked it. But again, I thought the reason I thought that was interesting is because it showed how finely calibrated his ability to kind of deal with the sort of millennial sensibilities on his staff are.
He knew he had to give them something. They wanted to do this. He didn't like it, but he let them have it. And it reminded me of a funny anecdote that I love in the book is I'm walking with him through the theater district. We passed the Mean Girls marquee. That's the show he produced with Tina Fey.
And he was disappointed because his friend Margaret Trudeau was in town and he got her tickets for that night. And he was angry because the lead actress had called in sick that day because her dog had eaten glue and she had to take the dog to the vet. So she wasn't going to be in the show. And Lauren just shook his head and he said, if it was Patti LuPone's dog, it would be dead. You know.
The idea that, you know, because he's a real showbiz guy. The show must go on. And the fact that his friend Mark Trudeau was going to have to see an understudy. I don't like that.
That's just what, yeah, I mean, he learned that after the first five years. And so again, he's just like this guy. He's got this lesson book that he, and he remembers. Think about the rest of us. And so many people we know, we repeat our mistakes. We do the same thing over and over. He doesn't. He somehow learns from his mistakes.
Of him?
Gee, let me think. You know, I think that there are people who just feel that sometimes his aloofness can actually be cruel and cold. You know, there are definitely people who feel that way. There's the same number of people who say like, oh, you know, when my wife got sick, he called and fixed the insurance. And, you know, so it's both.
But I do think that that sort of icy management thing, which you, you know, there's the book deals in it. I think mostly that kind of peaked in the 90s. You know, you have Bob Odenkirk moaning about how, why the hell is this guy in charge and everything? But at the same time, you know, Odenkirk and Lorne are now good friends. I mean...
And what there's a lot of in Lauren's life, it's, you know, the way people, you know, in 12 step programs and like make amends, you know, Lauren gets a lot of letters from people 30 years later saying, I can't believe I was such a jerk when I worked for you. Now I know how hard your job is because I've had to, you know, be a director or manage people.
I think that's true. I think these anniversary shows mean a lot to him, but he isn't on a nostalgia trip. He is really in the moment. He's never like, oh, those were the days, it was better then. I think he probably thinks... The utility of all the fanfare over the 50th is to get more, get more viewers for the 51st and 52nd season. He's always charging ahead. He's thinking about the next cast.
Earlier this season, you know, I was talking to him about how this current cast is really big. It's a big cast again.
And he said something like, yeah, well, you know, it always takes like two or three years for the kind of new cast to sort of settle. And it just struck me that as he's about to settle 50th, he's thinking about he's thinking ahead. He's thinking about making the cast work. And I think that's part of the secret of it. You know, he doesn't he doesn't look back.
And again, why it was all the more special that when I talked to him right after the 40th, he was in the sort of rare sweet spot of thinking about 50th. the past and the future and his legacy. And I mean, I think there's a lot of warmth in him that he's letting come to the surface a little bit more now. And that is kind of lovely.
Yeah. Sarandos is one of those guys who sends him a father's day greeting, you know? Yeah, yeah. But it'll be interesting to see, right? Sarandos is behind this new, you know, Netflix's first foray into late night television with the John Mulaney show coming.
Yeah, I think that's right. I think at this point, there's so much, so many issues of respect and karma that nobody's going to try to, you know, nudge them off the stage that way.
It was really fun.
Well, and once I got to really know all those personalities, just to see, you know, somebody, Larry, I just did Lawrence O'Donnell's show and he said it was sort of like The Office, you know, like a workplace comedy.
I mean, just seeing like the way he would manipulate Colin Jost this way and the way he would get Jonah Hill to not to shut up and the way he was just like, it's really interesting to watch.
I mean, first of all, it's an incredibly funny bit, and it was Lauren's idea. But it was an example of what Lauren calls the show itself speaking. One of the things that was very unusual about early SNL, or SNL even now, is the meta aspect, the sort of taking apart the show and looking behind the scenes of the show, be part of the action.
I mean, first of all, it's an incredibly funny bit, and it was Lauren's idea. But it was an example of what Lauren calls the show itself speaking. One of the things that was very unusual about early SNL, or SNL even now, is the meta aspect, the sort of taking apart the show and looking behind the scenes of the show, be part of the action.
I'm talking with The New Yorker's Susan Morrison. Her new book is titled Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. And we'll continue our conversation in just a moment. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour.
I'm talking with The New Yorker's Susan Morrison. Her new book is titled Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. And we'll continue our conversation in just a moment. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour.
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I've been talking about the 50th anniversary this year of Saturday Night Live with Susan Morrison. Susan's my longtime colleague at the New Yorker and the author of a new book about the producer Lorne Michaels. Michaels launched Saturday Night Live in 1975 as a brash young man of 30. He's still running the show with an iron hand 50 years later.
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I've been talking about the 50th anniversary this year of Saturday Night Live with Susan Morrison. Susan's my longtime colleague at the New Yorker and the author of a new book about the producer Lorne Michaels. Michaels launched Saturday Night Live in 1975 as a brash young man of 30. He's still running the show with an iron hand 50 years later.
As a producer, Michael stays largely behind the scenes, but he's cultivated a character, a larger-than-life personality, which is catnip for the comedians who have worked for him over the years.
As a producer, Michael stays largely behind the scenes, but he's cultivated a character, a larger-than-life personality, which is catnip for the comedians who have worked for him over the years.
When I was researching this book, I remember asking Alec Baldwin, so who do you think does the best Lorne? Because as you say, a lot of the people on the show impersonate Lorne. And Alec said, Lorne. And David, I hope I'm not the first to tell you that there are a lot of pretty good David Remnick impersonations around this place. I have no doubt. But, you know, it's a way to blow off steam.
When I was researching this book, I remember asking Alec Baldwin, so who do you think does the best Lorne? Because as you say, a lot of the people on the show impersonate Lorne. And Alec said, Lorne. And David, I hope I'm not the first to tell you that there are a lot of pretty good David Remnick impersonations around this place. I have no doubt. But, you know, it's a way to blow off steam.
And it has to do with what you were saying before about people having this strange fascination with Lorne and trying to figure him out.
And it has to do with what you were saying before about people having this strange fascination with Lorne and trying to figure him out.
Well, let's listen. We grabbed a few Lorne imitations from Bill Hader, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, Dana Carvey, and Mike Myers, too.
Well, let's listen. We grabbed a few Lorne imitations from Bill Hader, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, Dana Carvey, and Mike Myers, too.
I didn't know initially that Dr. Evil was based on Lorne Michaels.
I didn't know initially that Dr. Evil was based on Lorne Michaels.
Dr. Evil originated with an impression that Dana Carvey used to do, sitting in the makeup chair at SNL wearing a bald wig. Well, he was waiting for his George Bush wig before he went out to do his George Bush impersonation. And he used to do this funny impersonation of Lorne. And, you know, he's a particular cadence. Sometimes it's kind of pretentious, bloviating.
Dr. Evil originated with an impression that Dana Carvey used to do, sitting in the makeup chair at SNL wearing a bald wig. Well, he was waiting for his George Bush wig before he went out to do his George Bush impersonation. And he used to do this funny impersonation of Lorne. And, you know, he's a particular cadence. Sometimes it's kind of pretentious, bloviating.
And so Dana Carvey, the first time he saw Austin Powers... He saw his own Lorne impersonation when Dr. Evil appeared on the screen. He didn't know that Mike Myers did it. Mike Myers is one of the people who did not do a Lorne impersonation around the office. That's hilarious. And complete with the pinky to the lips, which— That's a Lorne Michaels thing, too? A million dollars?
And so Dana Carvey, the first time he saw Austin Powers... He saw his own Lorne impersonation when Dr. Evil appeared on the screen. He didn't know that Mike Myers did it. Mike Myers is one of the people who did not do a Lorne impersonation around the office. That's hilarious. And complete with the pinky to the lips, which— That's a Lorne Michaels thing, too? A million dollars?
Dana took the pinky thing. It's an exaggerated form of— How Lorne, I think, sometimes would bite his nails at read-through. When I asked Lorne about this, though, he said, well, in terms of fingers, I might be more thumb. Wow.
Dana took the pinky thing. It's an exaggerated form of— How Lorne, I think, sometimes would bite his nails at read-through. When I asked Lorne about this, though, he said, well, in terms of fingers, I might be more thumb. Wow.
No.
No.
He's got a mystique and what you're saying is that he's cultivated this mystique. What is the nature of it and what kind of hold does he have on the people he works with?
He's got a mystique and what you're saying is that he's cultivated this mystique. What is the nature of it and what kind of hold does he have on the people he works with?
Anything that begins as a kind of anti-establishment renegade thing like SNL. and I'm thinking of Rolling Stone also, which began a little bit before that. The magazine. As it gets successful, you know, it's tough to stay a renegade and be making gazillions of dollars.
Anything that begins as a kind of anti-establishment renegade thing like SNL. and I'm thinking of Rolling Stone also, which began a little bit before that. The magazine. As it gets successful, you know, it's tough to stay a renegade and be making gazillions of dollars.
One of the ways Lorne, I think, dealt with that, consciously or not, was by playing into that with his characters, this kind of bored, self-satisfied, pasha kind of character. You know, he is... in some ways, you know, he plays his cards close to the vest. He is inscrutable. He can be aloof. People are always saying that he is stinting with sort of obvious praise.
One of the ways Lorne, I think, dealt with that, consciously or not, was by playing into that with his characters, this kind of bored, self-satisfied, pasha kind of character. You know, he is... in some ways, you know, he plays his cards close to the vest. He is inscrutable. He can be aloof. People are always saying that he is stinting with sort of obvious praise.
Like if you go out there and you kill in a sketch, he's not going to say at the Monday meeting, that was fantastic. But he'll single out somebody who had like a tiny role and he'd say, you know, you're breathtaking as the third cop. So he, you keep people off balance a little bit.
Like if you go out there and you kill in a sketch, he's not going to say at the Monday meeting, that was fantastic. But he'll single out somebody who had like a tiny role and he'd say, you know, you're breathtaking as the third cop. So he, you keep people off balance a little bit.
It seems like everybody there is, even years after starting to work with him, kind of terrified of him. And he tells them how to live.
It seems like everybody there is, even years after starting to work with him, kind of terrified of him. And he tells them how to live.
He also has rules for comedy itself. And you get into this in the book, and I think it's absolutely fascinating. What are those rules?
He also has rules for comedy itself. And you get into this in the book, and I think it's absolutely fascinating. What are those rules?
One that a lot of people talk about is do it in sunshine. And what that means is don't forget that comedy is supposed to be an entertainment. He's always warning, especially young people, against going for kind of a gritty indie vibe. If you think about the posters for the movies he produces...
One that a lot of people talk about is do it in sunshine. And what that means is don't forget that comedy is supposed to be an entertainment. He's always warning, especially young people, against going for kind of a gritty indie vibe. If you think about the posters for the movies he produces...
like Wayne's World and many, many others, they're very often the character standing against a bright blue sky dotted with puffy white clouds. He, Lorne, does never have a coffin in a sketch. You just, you don't want to bring people down.
like Wayne's World and many, many others, they're very often the character standing against a bright blue sky dotted with puffy white clouds. He, Lorne, does never have a coffin in a sketch. You just, you don't want to bring people down.
So even while he's ostensibly being politically, at least oppositional to the moment... It's never that renegade.
So even while he's ostensibly being politically, at least oppositional to the moment... It's never that renegade.
One of the things that I think Lawrence sometimes has difficulty with in our age is that from the beginning, his idea was that you just, you wanted to be needling who's ever in power. The show would make fun of Jimmy Carter. The show made fun of, you know, Bill Clinton, all kinds of Democrats as well as Republicans.
One of the things that I think Lawrence sometimes has difficulty with in our age is that from the beginning, his idea was that you just, you wanted to be needling who's ever in power. The show would make fun of Jimmy Carter. The show made fun of, you know, Bill Clinton, all kinds of Democrats as well as Republicans.
And I think that's one way that he and the show think of themselves as differing from some other kind of political group. talk shows and comedy shows. Do you think it's gotten more politically toothless over the years? That's been some of the critique of it. I think that Lorne is always pushing his people to make fun of liberals as well as conservatives.
And I think that's one way that he and the show think of themselves as differing from some other kind of political group. talk shows and comedy shows. Do you think it's gotten more politically toothless over the years? That's been some of the critique of it. I think that Lorne is always pushing his people to make fun of liberals as well as conservatives.
And in the current climate, which is something we say here all the time at The New Yorker about our own younger staff members, that's much harder to do. I don't think that the show has gotten more politically toothless. I think if anything... We live in this kind of cataclysmic time where I think people feel that if they're not just going after kind of MAGA Trump Republicans and treating –
And in the current climate, which is something we say here all the time at The New Yorker about our own younger staff members, that's much harder to do. I don't think that the show has gotten more politically toothless. I think if anything... We live in this kind of cataclysmic time where I think people feel that if they're not just going after kind of MAGA Trump Republicans and treating –
That they're not doing right.
That they're not doing right.
That they're going to go to hell. And that kind of an attitude is, that's oppositional to comedy, I think. Right. There's a term, Seth Meyers coined it, called claptor. And that means when you get an audience reaction, usually to a political joke, which isn't laughing, but it's more this kind of, I agree with that sentiment kind of clapping. Right. And
That they're going to go to hell. And that kind of an attitude is, that's oppositional to comedy, I think. Right. There's a term, Seth Meyers coined it, called claptor. And that means when you get an audience reaction, usually to a political joke, which isn't laughing, but it's more this kind of, I agree with that sentiment kind of clapping. Right. And
That's not really something a real comedy person wants. And it's not satisfying. It's not satisfying. A comedian really wants somebody to have this, you know, laughing. It's an uncontrollable physical reaction. And that's really what you want.
That's not really something a real comedy person wants. And it's not satisfying. It's not satisfying. A comedian really wants somebody to have this, you know, laughing. It's an uncontrollable physical reaction. And that's really what you want.
Let's listen to Lorne Michaels talking about his culture that he established and his management style.
Let's listen to Lorne Michaels talking about his culture that he established and his management style.
He's describing a process, and it's a weekly process, and it has a rhythm to it every week. How does it take shape? How does the fooling around take shape from Monday to Saturday?
He's describing a process, and it's a weekly process, and it has a rhythm to it every week. How does it take shape? How does the fooling around take shape from Monday to Saturday?
Like putting together an issue of The New Yorker. Every day of the week has a particular – there's something that has to get done that day. And Lauren says all the time, we don't go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 1130.
Like putting together an issue of The New Yorker. Every day of the week has a particular – there's something that has to get done that day. And Lauren says all the time, we don't go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 1130.
And so it is – Jim Downey, one of the show's most long-term head writers, used to say that if you got a lot of Swiss engineers to try to look at everything that has to happen in a week in SNL and figure out how long it would take, they would say, oh, probably about 17 days to get these things done. But you have six days.
And so it is – Jim Downey, one of the show's most long-term head writers, used to say that if you got a lot of Swiss engineers to try to look at everything that has to happen in a week in SNL and figure out how long it would take, they would say, oh, probably about 17 days to get these things done. But you have six days.
But so it is interesting that within that incredibly tight framework, there is just this amount of foolery. I mean, just goofing around. And that is because that's the petri dish. That's a medium you need for comedy. And that's, you know, a good portion of that is them just making fun of Lauren.
But so it is interesting that within that incredibly tight framework, there is just this amount of foolery. I mean, just goofing around. And that is because that's the petri dish. That's a medium you need for comedy. And that's, you know, a good portion of that is them just making fun of Lauren.
You've been watching Saturday Night Live and studying it to some degree for 50 years, as long as it's been on TV. A lot of people talk about their favorite season. What is yours? Because it seems axiomatic that your favorite season is when.
You've been watching Saturday Night Live and studying it to some degree for 50 years, as long as it's been on TV. A lot of people talk about their favorite season. What is yours? Because it seems axiomatic that your favorite season is when.
Well, Lauren always says, people, everyone says that their favorite season is when they were in high school. When I was in high school was, as same with you, was the first cast. But my favorite cast is, I love the sort of Bill Hader, Kristen Wiig, Armisen cast. I think they worked really tightly together.
Well, Lauren always says, people, everyone says that their favorite season is when they were in high school. When I was in high school was, as same with you, was the first cast. But my favorite cast is, I love the sort of Bill Hader, Kristen Wiig, Armisen cast. I think they worked really tightly together.
I think it was, in a way, maybe as much as the original cast, like kind of the coolest cast, you know. And, you know, for somebody... As old as he is, and people make fun of him for this, Lorne really cares about cool. I also thought that the Amy Poehler, Tina Fey cast, Will Ferrell cast, the thing is that, as you know, they all blend.
I think it was, in a way, maybe as much as the original cast, like kind of the coolest cast, you know. And, you know, for somebody... As old as he is, and people make fun of him for this, Lorne really cares about cool. I also thought that the Amy Poehler, Tina Fey cast, Will Ferrell cast, the thing is that, as you know, they all blend.
And, of course, the great Phil Hartman, Jan Hooks, that period was incredible.
And, of course, the great Phil Hartman, Jan Hooks, that period was incredible.
There was a period somewhat early on that Lorne Michaels left the show. Why did he leave the show and what effect did it have?
There was a period somewhat early on that Lorne Michaels left the show. Why did he leave the show and what effect did it have?
Well, he had been doing the show for five years. It was punishing. They did many more shows a year then. And I think they were all just completely out of gas. They had lost, you know, first they lost Chevy, then they lost Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, and they were going on fumes. And Lorne, basically, he said... if I come back for the sixth season, it was just negotiation gone wrong.
Well, he had been doing the show for five years. It was punishing. They did many more shows a year then. And I think they were all just completely out of gas. They had lost, you know, first they lost Chevy, then they lost Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, and they were going on fumes. And Lorne, basically, he said... if I come back for the sixth season, it was just negotiation gone wrong.
I need three or four months to regroup. I'm going to need to hire a lot more people. I need to rest up. And the network said, we don't want to do that. And in fact, they had The line was that they had sold the ads already in September and October. The next thing Lorne knew, they had hired somebody else to take over the show.
I need three or four months to regroup. I'm going to need to hire a lot more people. I need to rest up. And the network said, we don't want to do that. And in fact, they had The line was that they had sold the ads already in September and October. The next thing Lorne knew, they had hired somebody else to take over the show.
Which was a shocker to him because even though he didn't own the show, I think he had this idea. It was his child and the idea that NBC felt that they could carry it on without him took him by surprise. That was Jean Domanian. She had been the talent coordinator for the show and she did a disastrous partial year which ended abruptly when one of her actors said, fuck, on the air.
Which was a shocker to him because even though he didn't own the show, I think he had this idea. It was his child and the idea that NBC felt that they could carry it on without him took him by surprise. That was Jean Domanian. She had been the talent coordinator for the show and she did a disastrous partial year which ended abruptly when one of her actors said, fuck, on the air.
Well, they were going to pull the show off the air. So at that point, it was really like, save your baby, come back and save it, or it's going nowhere.
Well, they were going to pull the show off the air. So at that point, it was really like, save your baby, come back and save it, or it's going nowhere.
What's the difference in his level of engagement and the way he lives his work life now, 80, things have been on for 50 years, as opposed to 30, 40 years ago?
What's the difference in his level of engagement and the way he lives his work life now, 80, things have been on for 50 years, as opposed to 30, 40 years ago?
These days, you know, he's in the office every day, but the really key, you know, there's a Monday meeting where everybody meets the host. There is read-through on Wednesday, and that's key. He's there. He listens to everything, and then he kind of picks the sketches that they're going to proceed with with the help of a handful of deputies. And then it really is just Saturday night.
These days, you know, he's in the office every day, but the really key, you know, there's a Monday meeting where everybody meets the host. There is read-through on Wednesday, and that's key. He's there. He listens to everything, and then he kind of picks the sketches that they're going to proceed with with the help of a handful of deputies. And then it really is just Saturday night.
That's the crucible. You And he barks commands, you know, notes and changes, all kinds of things that need to be fixed. And then, you know, just an hour before air, gathers the whole group and, you know, pretty much rips the show apart. And, I mean, we occasionally do this here at the magazine, but not that often.
That's the crucible. You And he barks commands, you know, notes and changes, all kinds of things that need to be fixed. And then, you know, just an hour before air, gathers the whole group and, you know, pretty much rips the show apart. And, I mean, we occasionally do this here at the magazine, but not that often.
It doesn't come on live for an hour and a half.
It doesn't come on live for an hour and a half.
But something that's really important that a lot of people don't understand is that because it's a live show... everything, you know, there can't be any surprises. So when something unscripted happens, like Sinead O'Connor tearing up a picture of the Pope on camera, or when Elvis Costello decides to switch songs, two bars in to switch songs, you know, the myth out there is that
But something that's really important that a lot of people don't understand is that because it's a live show... everything, you know, there can't be any surprises. So when something unscripted happens, like Sinead O'Connor tearing up a picture of the Pope on camera, or when Elvis Costello decides to switch songs, two bars in to switch songs, you know, the myth out there is that
is that those people are banned from the show because they did something without telling Lorne. But it's really about deference to the camera operators and the tech guys. And discipline. Yeah, discipline, just because everything has to be a certain number of seconds because then you have a commercial slot, and it's live television.
is that those people are banned from the show because they did something without telling Lorne. But it's really about deference to the camera operators and the tech guys. And discipline. Yeah, discipline, just because everything has to be a certain number of seconds because then you have a commercial slot, and it's live television.
And if somebody tries to improvise, or in the first five years Milton Berle was on the show, and had all these ideas about just going off script and improvising. It drove everybody nuts because even though improv is a big part of at least comedy as we know it in 2025, this is a very tightly scripted show. It has to be because it's live.
And if somebody tries to improvise, or in the first five years Milton Berle was on the show, and had all these ideas about just going off script and improvising. It drove everybody nuts because even though improv is a big part of at least comedy as we know it in 2025, this is a very tightly scripted show. It has to be because it's live.
You've reached this point 50 years of the show. Lorne Michaels is 80 and we wish him nothing but good health going forward. At some point, the discussion of retirement succession has to come up. Where is this discussion now?
You've reached this point 50 years of the show. Lorne Michaels is 80 and we wish him nothing but good health going forward. At some point, the discussion of retirement succession has to come up. Where is this discussion now?
Last year, there was a flurry of rumors of people who would take over. Tim Faye, Seth Meyers, Colin Jost. I just don't think he'll ever leave until he has to, until he's carried out of there on a stretcher. He describes the show as the TV equivalent of a David Lean epic. It's very expensive. It's very wasteful.
Last year, there was a flurry of rumors of people who would take over. Tim Faye, Seth Meyers, Colin Jost. I just don't think he'll ever leave until he has to, until he's carried out of there on a stretcher. He describes the show as the TV equivalent of a David Lean epic. It's very expensive. It's very wasteful.
You know, cutting all these sketches at the last minute means scrapping very expensive sets and costumes. And I just, it's really hard for me to even think that NBC would keep it going without him. Is it still profitable? Oh, I think it is, yeah. So why would they keep it going if they could? I think his personality is just a huge part of it.
You know, cutting all these sketches at the last minute means scrapping very expensive sets and costumes. And I just, it's really hard for me to even think that NBC would keep it going without him. Is it still profitable? Oh, I think it is, yeah. So why would they keep it going if they could? I think his personality is just a huge part of it.
How many people are watching it now or are they watching it in bits the next morning? Amy Poehler famously said at the 40th anniversary, SNL is the show that your parents used to have sex to and now you watch on your computer at work the next day. So people consume it. You watch a sketch on the phone on the subway. But you must hate that. Well, I don't know.
How many people are watching it now or are they watching it in bits the next morning? Amy Poehler famously said at the 40th anniversary, SNL is the show that your parents used to have sex to and now you watch on your computer at work the next day. So people consume it. You watch a sketch on the phone on the subway. But you must hate that. Well, I don't know.
I think that he likes it if people watch it live. It's the same way recording artists still make LPs and they think that someone's going to sit down and listen to, you know, they pay attention to the sequencing. We'll sit around and talk about, oh, should this be a column or should it be a well piece? And we all know that as the average reader, this means nothing.
I think that he likes it if people watch it live. It's the same way recording artists still make LPs and they think that someone's going to sit down and listen to, you know, they pay attention to the sequencing. We'll sit around and talk about, oh, should this be a column or should it be a well piece? And we all know that as the average reader, this means nothing.
Zippity-doo.
Zippity-doo.
But I think that for us and for Lorne Michaels, the fact that What we do, these things are so modular, you know. I mean, people can read Talk of the Town piece on the subway and then switch to the fantastic Alice Monroe piece in the same way that somebody can sit on their phone and watch a cold open and then watch the musical act. And it's actually beneficial to all of us.
But I think that for us and for Lorne Michaels, the fact that What we do, these things are so modular, you know. I mean, people can read Talk of the Town piece on the subway and then switch to the fantastic Alice Monroe piece in the same way that somebody can sit on their phone and watch a cold open and then watch the musical act. And it's actually beneficial to all of us.
So just for the record, you think that he'll go as long as he possibly can physically, and then when he ends...
So just for the record, you think that he'll go as long as he possibly can physically, and then when he ends...
It ends? I think that's not an impossible idea. The other thing I would think of is that I could imagine a kind of coalition of a handful of people taking it over. Like after the death of Stalin.
It ends? I think that's not an impossible idea. The other thing I would think of is that I could imagine a kind of coalition of a handful of people taking it over. Like after the death of Stalin.
They had a few people and then finally Khrushchev prevailed.
They had a few people and then finally Khrushchev prevailed.
Good analogy.
Good analogy.
Susan Morrison, thank you.
Susan Morrison, thank you.
Thank you, David. It was great to walk down the hall and sit here and talk to you.
Thank you, David. It was great to walk down the hall and sit here and talk to you.
Susan Morrison's new book is Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. You can read an excerpt of the book, which ran in the magazine, at newyorker.com. And you can subscribe to The New Yorker there as well, newyorker.com. That's The New Yorker Radio Hour for this week, and thanks for listening. See you next time.
Susan Morrison's new book is Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. You can read an excerpt of the book, which ran in the magazine, at newyorker.com. And you can subscribe to The New Yorker there as well, newyorker.com. That's The New Yorker Radio Hour for this week, and thanks for listening. See you next time.
Tina Fey, reading from The New Yorker's review of Saturday Night Live from 1975. That's an excerpt, and you can find Michael Arlen's piece at newyorker.com. Now, we don't normally know the producers of television shows, but Saturday Night Live is a real exception to that rule. Lorne Michaels was a Canadian.
Tina Fey, reading from The New Yorker's review of Saturday Night Live from 1975. That's an excerpt, and you can find Michael Arlen's piece at newyorker.com. Now, we don't normally know the producers of television shows, but Saturday Night Live is a real exception to that rule. Lorne Michaels was a Canadian.
who had been writing comedy shows in LA, and he had a very specific idea about what he wanted to do in comedy. He promised NBC executives that his show would be different, very different than anything else on television. Michaels has always been full of maxims and rules about comedy. And over the years, he cultivated a kind of mystique on the show.
who had been writing comedy shows in LA, and he had a very specific idea about what he wanted to do in comedy. He promised NBC executives that his show would be different, very different than anything else on television. Michaels has always been full of maxims and rules about comedy. And over the years, he cultivated a kind of mystique on the show.
Lorne Michaels also doesn't like to talk to the press very much. So a new book by Susan Morrison about Michaels sheds a lot of light on one of the most important people in show business in our time. Susan spent years talking to Michaels when she wasn't at her day job as an editor at The New Yorker.
Lorne Michaels also doesn't like to talk to the press very much. So a new book by Susan Morrison about Michaels sheds a lot of light on one of the most important people in show business in our time. Susan spent years talking to Michaels when she wasn't at her day job as an editor at The New Yorker.
Susan, I don't want you to give away your age or mine, but what's your first memory of watching Saturday Night Live?
Susan, I don't want you to give away your age or mine, but what's your first memory of watching Saturday Night Live?
I definitely watched it in the first season, but my chief first memory is being at the show in the first season. 50 years ago. 50 years ago, we got in, we sat right next to the stage in Studio 8H, and it was Elliot Gould and Leon Redbone.
I definitely watched it in the first season, but my chief first memory is being at the show in the first season. 50 years ago. 50 years ago, we got in, we sat right next to the stage in Studio 8H, and it was Elliot Gould and Leon Redbone.
But what I really remembered was the kind of strange thrill of sitting in a working television studio with sets being hustled by you and cameras on cranes flying over your head. So what really hit me was the kind of strange deconstructed aspect of it. I'm sure I didn't get most of the comedy. So let's start from the beginning of the beginning.
But what I really remembered was the kind of strange thrill of sitting in a working television studio with sets being hustled by you and cameras on cranes flying over your head. So what really hit me was the kind of strange deconstructed aspect of it. I'm sure I didn't get most of the comedy. So let's start from the beginning of the beginning.
You've been an editor at The New Yorker for a long time. Why write about Lorne Michaels, somebody who people think they know who he is, And maybe they only see him as a sort of fleeting image once in a while on a show on a Saturday night.
You've been an editor at The New Yorker for a long time. Why write about Lorne Michaels, somebody who people think they know who he is, And maybe they only see him as a sort of fleeting image once in a while on a show on a Saturday night.
My first job in New York City was working for Lorne on his one big public failure. It was a show called The New Show that was a primetime kind of quasi version of SNL. on NBC, and the show flopped terribly, but it opened the world to me in a very interesting way. And, you know, I would say hi to Lorne. And so I always was interested in the culture.
My first job in New York City was working for Lorne on his one big public failure. It was a show called The New Show that was a primetime kind of quasi version of SNL. on NBC, and the show flopped terribly, but it opened the world to me in a very interesting way. And, you know, I would say hi to Lorne. And so I always was interested in the culture.
And around the time of SNL's 40th anniversary, 10 years ago, I was a new empty nester, and I had the preposterous idea that I was suddenly going to have a lot of free time. Right. So I went to Lorne, who knew me a bit, and told him, I've signed a contract with Random House to write a book about you.
And around the time of SNL's 40th anniversary, 10 years ago, I was a new empty nester, and I had the preposterous idea that I was suddenly going to have a lot of free time. Right. So I went to Lorne, who knew me a bit, and told him, I've signed a contract with Random House to write a book about you.
Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.
Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.
I don't need anything from you because you know I'm familiar with your world and your friends and these people, but it would be a better book if you wanted to be involved. And after... you know, looking like he was going to pass out for taking a few deep breaths. He, you know, he loves The New Yorker. He agreed to give me a lot of time and open a lot of doors.
I don't need anything from you because you know I'm familiar with your world and your friends and these people, but it would be a better book if you wanted to be involved. And after... you know, looking like he was going to pass out for taking a few deep breaths. He, you know, he loves The New Yorker. He agreed to give me a lot of time and open a lot of doors.
A lot of people don't know that in the very first season of SNL, The New Yorker's famous writer, Lillian Ross, and William Shawn, the editor of this magazine, showed up at the show one day because they were huge Richard Pryor fans. And they loved Lorne, and they kind of took him under their wing and showed him around town. He didn't really know New York at the time.
A lot of people don't know that in the very first season of SNL, The New Yorker's famous writer, Lillian Ross, and William Shawn, the editor of this magazine, showed up at the show one day because they were huge Richard Pryor fans. And they loved Lorne, and they kind of took him under their wing and showed him around town. He didn't really know New York at the time.
He's Canadian.
He's Canadian.
He's Canadian, and he had been in L.A. And so he learned a lot from them, and they learned a lot from him. A lot of people don't know that William Shawn was a real comedy nerd. And in his later years, his favorite film was This is Spinal Tap.
He's Canadian, and he had been in L.A. And so he learned a lot from them, and they learned a lot from him. A lot of people don't know that William Shawn was a real comedy nerd. And in his later years, his favorite film was This is Spinal Tap.
Wait, I have to absorb that. You know, the stereotype of him or the caricature of him was very buttoned up, let's just say, and that was his favorite. He loved it, yeah. Incidentally, after Sean was deposed in the mid-'80s, there was this thought that entered Lorne Michaels' head at some point that he would succeed William Sean as the editor of The New Yorker. I want to know everything about that.
Wait, I have to absorb that. You know, the stereotype of him or the caricature of him was very buttoned up, let's just say, and that was his favorite. He loved it, yeah. Incidentally, after Sean was deposed in the mid-'80s, there was this thought that entered Lorne Michaels' head at some point that he would succeed William Sean as the editor of The New Yorker. I want to know everything about that.
Sean was a mentor. If you think about our two enterprises, 50 years apart, The New Yorker's 100, SNL is now 50. A lot of what these guys do is very similar. They're corralling a gang of needy egos, figuring out how to keep the thing afloat every week, once a week. You know, they have to say no more than they can say yes. And Sean talked a lot to Lauren about succession.
Sean was a mentor. If you think about our two enterprises, 50 years apart, The New Yorker's 100, SNL is now 50. A lot of what these guys do is very similar. They're corralling a gang of needy egos, figuring out how to keep the thing afloat every week, once a week. You know, they have to say no more than they can say yes. And Sean talked a lot to Lauren about succession.
And it turned out that, you know, Sean didn't manage his own succession terribly well.
And it turned out that, you know, Sean didn't manage his own succession terribly well.
No, and was under the delusion that he would go on forever somehow.
No, and was under the delusion that he would go on forever somehow.
Yeah, and so Lauren definitely got this idea that... he would perhaps be asked to step into Sean's shoes. So I think when I came along, part of the New Yorker, wanting to write this book, I think a penny dropped with Lorne, and he felt there was kind of a continuity.
Yeah, and so Lauren definitely got this idea that... he would perhaps be asked to step into Sean's shoes. So I think when I came along, part of the New Yorker, wanting to write this book, I think a penny dropped with Lorne, and he felt there was kind of a continuity.
What's been its cultural import and importance, and why has it been able to last this long?
What's been its cultural import and importance, and why has it been able to last this long?
Well, in the beginning, it really was renegade. It started at a time when television was the Brady Bunch and Lawrence Welk. And because it was on at 11.30 late night, that time slot was like a vacant lot at the edge of town. No executives paid attention to it. No one gave notes. They could do whatever they wanted. But I think the reason it's lasted is that Lorne
Well, in the beginning, it really was renegade. It started at a time when television was the Brady Bunch and Lawrence Welk. And because it was on at 11.30 late night, that time slot was like a vacant lot at the edge of town. No executives paid attention to it. No one gave notes. They could do whatever they wanted. But I think the reason it's lasted is that Lorne
He had a lot of really oddball jobs in L.A., writing for people from Phyllis Diller to Perry Como to Flip Wilson and, you know, a lot of schlock. It was that strange period of the early 70s when, you know, some of television felt like the 60s, some felt like the 50s. It was, you know, Dean Martin would have the Stones on his variety show, just almost out of obligation and, you know,
He had a lot of really oddball jobs in L.A., writing for people from Phyllis Diller to Perry Como to Flip Wilson and, you know, a lot of schlock. It was that strange period of the early 70s when, you know, some of television felt like the 60s, some felt like the 50s. It was, you know, Dean Martin would have the Stones on his variety show, just almost out of obligation and, you know,
would introduce them in this disparaging way, saying, like, I've been rolled and I've been stoned, but I've never been any... Right, and even Ed Sullivan didn't seem entirely comfortable with the Beatles and rock and roll on his Sunday night show. Exactly. So the reason I bring this up is that I think Lauren was a real student of what I call sort of the hinges between eras.
would introduce them in this disparaging way, saying, like, I've been rolled and I've been stoned, but I've never been any... Right, and even Ed Sullivan didn't seem entirely comfortable with the Beatles and rock and roll on his Sunday night show. Exactly. So the reason I bring this up is that I think Lauren was a real student of what I call sort of the hinges between eras.
In 1975, the New Yorker reviewed a new television show that aimed pretty deliberately to redefine comedy, and it came to be called Saturday Night Live.
In 1975, the New Yorker reviewed a new television show that aimed pretty deliberately to redefine comedy, and it came to be called Saturday Night Live.
He noticed how one time slid into another. And I think he was always determined to not be that, you know, the grandmother with a hula hoop. He wanted the show to stay current. He paid attention to replenishing the cast's In a sort of seamless way so that it would never seem like an old guy trying to do an entertainment for young people.
He noticed how one time slid into another. And I think he was always determined to not be that, you know, the grandmother with a hula hoop. He wanted the show to stay current. He paid attention to replenishing the cast's In a sort of seamless way so that it would never seem like an old guy trying to do an entertainment for young people.
So in a way, the show, which was replacing Dead Air on Saturday night and kind of replacing a Johnny Carson repeat on the weekend, was to become itself rock and roll as well as just the guests being rock and roll.
So in a way, the show, which was replacing Dead Air on Saturday night and kind of replacing a Johnny Carson repeat on the weekend, was to become itself rock and roll as well as just the guests being rock and roll.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, Lorne, you know, when he was toiling in L.A. at these kind of lame shows writing for Perry Como, a bunch of times he thought, God, television is just a backwater. You know, the movies, you had John Cassavetes and Terrence Malick really pushing into new territory and rock and roll was so exciting. And television was, you know, it was still the boob tube.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, Lorne, you know, when he was toiling in L.A. at these kind of lame shows writing for Perry Como, a bunch of times he thought, God, television is just a backwater. You know, the movies, you had John Cassavetes and Terrence Malick really pushing into new territory and rock and roll was so exciting. And television was, you know, it was still the boob tube.
And he was determined to help television catch up.
And he was determined to help television catch up.
Why did he want to have this be? in our capital.
Why did he want to have this be? in our capital.
When he finally got an offer from NBC to come to New York and make this show, he almost said no. He didn't want to come to New York. He wanted to do it in California. NBC's President Herb Schlosser wanted to do this show out of Rockefeller Center, which was Deadsville. Lawrence said, you know, there were deer running in the halls back then. At that time, New York was on the brink of bankruptcy.
When he finally got an offer from NBC to come to New York and make this show, he almost said no. He didn't want to come to New York. He wanted to do it in California. NBC's President Herb Schlosser wanted to do this show out of Rockefeller Center, which was Deadsville. Lawrence said, you know, there were deer running in the halls back then. At that time, New York was on the brink of bankruptcy.
crime everywhere, graffiti everywhere. It was very cold. Remember, this is a furrier son from Canada. He wasn't eager to get back into that climate. And he considered New York the anxiety capital of the world. But he decided it was worth it to make the show that he'd always dreamed of. And what is the show that he always dreamed of? What was it based on and how is it unique?
crime everywhere, graffiti everywhere. It was very cold. Remember, this is a furrier son from Canada. He wasn't eager to get back into that climate. And he considered New York the anxiety capital of the world. But he decided it was worth it to make the show that he'd always dreamed of. And what is the show that he always dreamed of? What was it based on and how is it unique?
What it is, it's a combination of comedy sketches that reflect kind of real-world 1970s preoccupations, politics, short films, rock music. If you were to compare it to, say, Carol Burnett, which was a popular, huge hit show at the time, which I, as a kid, adored, that was for an older generation.
What it is, it's a combination of comedy sketches that reflect kind of real-world 1970s preoccupations, politics, short films, rock music. If you were to compare it to, say, Carol Burnett, which was a popular, huge hit show at the time, which I, as a kid, adored, that was for an older generation.
The cast was a bunch of unknowns. Dan Aykroyd, Gilda Radner, Chevy Chase, John Belushi. But it became such an institution, you can barely think of a comedian in the last half century who didn't go through SNL as a writer or as a performer. Here's Tina Fey, reading from the review by Michael Arlen, the New Yorker's television critic at the time, published just after the show's debut.
The cast was a bunch of unknowns. Dan Aykroyd, Gilda Radner, Chevy Chase, John Belushi. But it became such an institution, you can barely think of a comedian in the last half century who didn't go through SNL as a writer or as a performer. Here's Tina Fey, reading from the review by Michael Arlen, the New Yorker's television critic at the time, published just after the show's debut.
Their pieces were about the PTA and alcoholism and parents in the suburbs getting the garage door to work. I mean, Lorne wanted the show to be about drugs and romance and sex and just wanted it to be for his generation.
Their pieces were about the PTA and alcoholism and parents in the suburbs getting the garage door to work. I mean, Lorne wanted the show to be about drugs and romance and sex and just wanted it to be for his generation.
So, Susan, now when we see Lorne Michaels in those little snippets on Saturday Night Live, he's wearing an exquisite suit and he's a guy of a certain age, but he did have one big moment in the show's first season. This is from 1975. Thank you.
So, Susan, now when we see Lorne Michaels in those little snippets on Saturday Night Live, he's wearing an exquisite suit and he's a guy of a certain age, but he did have one big moment in the show's first season. This is from 1975. Thank you.
I mean, first of all, it's an incredibly funny bit, and it was Lauren's idea. But it was an example of what Lauren calls the show itself speaking. One of the things that was very unusual about early SNL, or SNL even now, is the meta aspect, the sort of taking apart the show and looking behind the scenes of the show, be part of the action.
I'm talking with The New Yorker's Susan Morrison. Her new book is titled Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. And we'll continue our conversation in just a moment. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour.
This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. I've been talking about the 50th anniversary this year of Saturday Night Live with Susan Morrison. Susan's my longtime colleague at the New Yorker and the author of a new book about the producer Lorne Michaels. Michaels launched Saturday Night Live in 1975 as a brash young man of 30. He's still running the show with an iron hand 50 years later.
As a producer, Michael stays largely behind the scenes, but he's cultivated a character, a larger-than-life personality, which is catnip for the comedians who have worked for him over the years.
When I was researching this book, I remember asking Alec Baldwin, so who do you think does the best Lorne? Because as you say, a lot of the people on the show impersonate Lorne. And Alec said, Lorne. And David, I hope I'm not the first to tell you that there are a lot of pretty good David Remnick impersonations around this place. I have no doubt. But, you know, it's a way to blow off steam.
And it has to do with what you were saying before about people having this strange fascination with Lorne and trying to figure him out.
Well, let's listen. We grabbed a few Lorne imitations from Bill Hader, Jimmy Fallon, Seth Meyers, Dana Carvey, and Mike Myers, too.
I didn't know initially that Dr. Evil was based on Lorne Michaels.
Dr. Evil originated with an impression that Dana Carvey used to do, sitting in the makeup chair at SNL wearing a bald wig. Well, he was waiting for his George Bush wig before he went out to do his George Bush impersonation. And he used to do this funny impersonation of Lorne. And, you know, he's a particular cadence. Sometimes it's kind of pretentious, bloviating.
And so Dana Carvey, the first time he saw Austin Powers... He saw his own Lorne impersonation when Dr. Evil appeared on the screen. He didn't know that Mike Myers did it. Mike Myers is one of the people who did not do a Lorne impersonation around the office. That's hilarious. And complete with the pinky to the lips, which— That's a Lorne Michaels thing, too? A million dollars?
Dana took the pinky thing. It's an exaggerated form of— How Lorne, I think, sometimes would bite his nails at read-through. When I asked Lorne about this, though, he said, well, in terms of fingers, I might be more thumb. Wow.
No.
He's got a mystique and what you're saying is that he's cultivated this mystique. What is the nature of it and what kind of hold does he have on the people he works with?
Anything that begins as a kind of anti-establishment renegade thing like SNL. and I'm thinking of Rolling Stone also, which began a little bit before that. The magazine. As it gets successful, you know, it's tough to stay a renegade and be making gazillions of dollars.
One of the ways Lorne, I think, dealt with that, consciously or not, was by playing into that with his characters, this kind of bored, self-satisfied, pasha kind of character. You know, he is... in some ways, you know, he plays his cards close to the vest. He is inscrutable. He can be aloof. People are always saying that he is stinting with sort of obvious praise.
Like if you go out there and you kill in a sketch, he's not going to say at the Monday meeting, that was fantastic. But he'll single out somebody who had like a tiny role and he'd say, you know, you're breathtaking as the third cop. So he, you keep people off balance a little bit.
It seems like everybody there is, even years after starting to work with him, kind of terrified of him. And he tells them how to live.
He also has rules for comedy itself. And you get into this in the book, and I think it's absolutely fascinating. What are those rules?
One that a lot of people talk about is do it in sunshine. And what that means is don't forget that comedy is supposed to be an entertainment. He's always warning, especially young people, against going for kind of a gritty indie vibe. If you think about the posters for the movies he produces...
like Wayne's World and many, many others, they're very often the character standing against a bright blue sky dotted with puffy white clouds. He, Lorne, does never have a coffin in a sketch. You just, you don't want to bring people down.
So even while he's ostensibly being politically, at least oppositional to the moment... It's never that renegade.
One of the things that I think Lawrence sometimes has difficulty with in our age is that from the beginning, his idea was that you just, you wanted to be needling who's ever in power. The show would make fun of Jimmy Carter. The show made fun of, you know, Bill Clinton, all kinds of Democrats as well as Republicans.
And I think that's one way that he and the show think of themselves as differing from some other kind of political group. talk shows and comedy shows. Do you think it's gotten more politically toothless over the years? That's been some of the critique of it. I think that Lorne is always pushing his people to make fun of liberals as well as conservatives.
And in the current climate, which is something we say here all the time at The New Yorker about our own younger staff members, that's much harder to do. I don't think that the show has gotten more politically toothless. I think if anything... We live in this kind of cataclysmic time where I think people feel that if they're not just going after kind of MAGA Trump Republicans and treating –
That they're not doing right.
That they're going to go to hell. And that kind of an attitude is, that's oppositional to comedy, I think. Right. There's a term, Seth Meyers coined it, called claptor. And that means when you get an audience reaction, usually to a political joke, which isn't laughing, but it's more this kind of, I agree with that sentiment kind of clapping. Right. And
That's not really something a real comedy person wants. And it's not satisfying. It's not satisfying. A comedian really wants somebody to have this, you know, laughing. It's an uncontrollable physical reaction. And that's really what you want.
Let's listen to Lorne Michaels talking about his culture that he established and his management style.
He's describing a process, and it's a weekly process, and it has a rhythm to it every week. How does it take shape? How does the fooling around take shape from Monday to Saturday?
Like putting together an issue of The New Yorker. Every day of the week has a particular – there's something that has to get done that day. And Lauren says all the time, we don't go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 1130.
And so it is – Jim Downey, one of the show's most long-term head writers, used to say that if you got a lot of Swiss engineers to try to look at everything that has to happen in a week in SNL and figure out how long it would take, they would say, oh, probably about 17 days to get these things done. But you have six days.
But so it is interesting that within that incredibly tight framework, there is just this amount of foolery. I mean, just goofing around. And that is because that's the petri dish. That's a medium you need for comedy. And that's, you know, a good portion of that is them just making fun of Lauren.
You've been watching Saturday Night Live and studying it to some degree for 50 years, as long as it's been on TV. A lot of people talk about their favorite season. What is yours? Because it seems axiomatic that your favorite season is when.
Well, Lauren always says, people, everyone says that their favorite season is when they were in high school. When I was in high school was, as same with you, was the first cast. But my favorite cast is, I love the sort of Bill Hader, Kristen Wiig, Armisen cast. I think they worked really tightly together.
I think it was, in a way, maybe as much as the original cast, like kind of the coolest cast, you know. And, you know, for somebody... As old as he is, and people make fun of him for this, Lorne really cares about cool. I also thought that the Amy Poehler, Tina Fey cast, Will Ferrell cast, the thing is that, as you know, they all blend.
And, of course, the great Phil Hartman, Jan Hooks, that period was incredible.
There was a period somewhat early on that Lorne Michaels left the show. Why did he leave the show and what effect did it have?
Well, he had been doing the show for five years. It was punishing. They did many more shows a year then. And I think they were all just completely out of gas. They had lost, you know, first they lost Chevy, then they lost Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, and they were going on fumes. And Lorne, basically, he said... if I come back for the sixth season, it was just negotiation gone wrong.
I need three or four months to regroup. I'm going to need to hire a lot more people. I need to rest up. And the network said, we don't want to do that. And in fact, they had The line was that they had sold the ads already in September and October. The next thing Lorne knew, they had hired somebody else to take over the show.
Which was a shocker to him because even though he didn't own the show, I think he had this idea. It was his child and the idea that NBC felt that they could carry it on without him took him by surprise. That was Jean Domanian. She had been the talent coordinator for the show and she did a disastrous partial year which ended abruptly when one of her actors said, fuck, on the air.
Well, they were going to pull the show off the air. So at that point, it was really like, save your baby, come back and save it, or it's going nowhere.
What's the difference in his level of engagement and the way he lives his work life now, 80, things have been on for 50 years, as opposed to 30, 40 years ago?
These days, you know, he's in the office every day, but the really key, you know, there's a Monday meeting where everybody meets the host. There is read-through on Wednesday, and that's key. He's there. He listens to everything, and then he kind of picks the sketches that they're going to proceed with with the help of a handful of deputies. And then it really is just Saturday night.
That's the crucible. You And he barks commands, you know, notes and changes, all kinds of things that need to be fixed. And then, you know, just an hour before air, gathers the whole group and, you know, pretty much rips the show apart. And, I mean, we occasionally do this here at the magazine, but not that often.
It doesn't come on live for an hour and a half.
But something that's really important that a lot of people don't understand is that because it's a live show... everything, you know, there can't be any surprises. So when something unscripted happens, like Sinead O'Connor tearing up a picture of the Pope on camera, or when Elvis Costello decides to switch songs, two bars in to switch songs, you know, the myth out there is that
is that those people are banned from the show because they did something without telling Lorne. But it's really about deference to the camera operators and the tech guys. And discipline. Yeah, discipline, just because everything has to be a certain number of seconds because then you have a commercial slot, and it's live television.
And if somebody tries to improvise, or in the first five years Milton Berle was on the show, and had all these ideas about just going off script and improvising. It drove everybody nuts because even though improv is a big part of at least comedy as we know it in 2025, this is a very tightly scripted show. It has to be because it's live.
You've reached this point 50 years of the show. Lorne Michaels is 80 and we wish him nothing but good health going forward. At some point, the discussion of retirement succession has to come up. Where is this discussion now?
Last year, there was a flurry of rumors of people who would take over. Tim Faye, Seth Meyers, Colin Jost. I just don't think he'll ever leave until he has to, until he's carried out of there on a stretcher. He describes the show as the TV equivalent of a David Lean epic. It's very expensive. It's very wasteful.
You know, cutting all these sketches at the last minute means scrapping very expensive sets and costumes. And I just, it's really hard for me to even think that NBC would keep it going without him. Is it still profitable? Oh, I think it is, yeah. So why would they keep it going if they could? I think his personality is just a huge part of it.
How many people are watching it now or are they watching it in bits the next morning? Amy Poehler famously said at the 40th anniversary, SNL is the show that your parents used to have sex to and now you watch on your computer at work the next day. So people consume it. You watch a sketch on the phone on the subway. But you must hate that. Well, I don't know.
I think that he likes it if people watch it live. It's the same way recording artists still make LPs and they think that someone's going to sit down and listen to, you know, they pay attention to the sequencing. We'll sit around and talk about, oh, should this be a column or should it be a well piece? And we all know that as the average reader, this means nothing.
Zippity-doo.
But I think that for us and for Lorne Michaels, the fact that What we do, these things are so modular, you know. I mean, people can read Talk of the Town piece on the subway and then switch to the fantastic Alice Monroe piece in the same way that somebody can sit on their phone and watch a cold open and then watch the musical act. And it's actually beneficial to all of us.
So just for the record, you think that he'll go as long as he possibly can physically, and then when he ends...
It ends? I think that's not an impossible idea. The other thing I would think of is that I could imagine a kind of coalition of a handful of people taking it over. Like after the death of Stalin.
They had a few people and then finally Khrushchev prevailed.
Good analogy.
Susan Morrison, thank you.
Thank you, David. It was great to walk down the hall and sit here and talk to you.
Susan Morrison's new book is Lorne, The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live. You can read an excerpt of the book, which ran in the magazine, at newyorker.com. And you can subscribe to The New Yorker there as well, newyorker.com. That's The New Yorker Radio Hour for this week, and thanks for listening. See you next time.
Tina Fey, reading from The New Yorker's review of Saturday Night Live from 1975. That's an excerpt, and you can find Michael Arlen's piece at newyorker.com. Now, we don't normally know the producers of television shows, but Saturday Night Live is a real exception to that rule. Lorne Michaels was a Canadian.
who had been writing comedy shows in LA, and he had a very specific idea about what he wanted to do in comedy. He promised NBC executives that his show would be different, very different than anything else on television. Michaels has always been full of maxims and rules about comedy. And over the years, he cultivated a kind of mystique on the show.
Lorne Michaels also doesn't like to talk to the press very much. So a new book by Susan Morrison about Michaels sheds a lot of light on one of the most important people in show business in our time. Susan spent years talking to Michaels when she wasn't at her day job as an editor at The New Yorker.
Susan, I don't want you to give away your age or mine, but what's your first memory of watching Saturday Night Live?
I definitely watched it in the first season, but my chief first memory is being at the show in the first season. 50 years ago. 50 years ago, we got in, we sat right next to the stage in Studio 8H, and it was Elliot Gould and Leon Redbone.
But what I really remembered was the kind of strange thrill of sitting in a working television studio with sets being hustled by you and cameras on cranes flying over your head. So what really hit me was the kind of strange deconstructed aspect of it. I'm sure I didn't get most of the comedy. So let's start from the beginning of the beginning.
You've been an editor at The New Yorker for a long time. Why write about Lorne Michaels, somebody who people think they know who he is, And maybe they only see him as a sort of fleeting image once in a while on a show on a Saturday night.
My first job in New York City was working for Lorne on his one big public failure. It was a show called The New Show that was a primetime kind of quasi version of SNL. on NBC, and the show flopped terribly, but it opened the world to me in a very interesting way. And, you know, I would say hi to Lorne. And so I always was interested in the culture.
And around the time of SNL's 40th anniversary, 10 years ago, I was a new empty nester, and I had the preposterous idea that I was suddenly going to have a lot of free time. Right. So I went to Lorne, who knew me a bit, and told him, I've signed a contract with Random House to write a book about you.
Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.
I don't need anything from you because you know I'm familiar with your world and your friends and these people, but it would be a better book if you wanted to be involved. And after... you know, looking like he was going to pass out for taking a few deep breaths. He, you know, he loves The New Yorker. He agreed to give me a lot of time and open a lot of doors.
A lot of people don't know that in the very first season of SNL, The New Yorker's famous writer, Lillian Ross, and William Shawn, the editor of this magazine, showed up at the show one day because they were huge Richard Pryor fans. And they loved Lorne, and they kind of took him under their wing and showed him around town. He didn't really know New York at the time.
He's Canadian.
He's Canadian, and he had been in L.A. And so he learned a lot from them, and they learned a lot from him. A lot of people don't know that William Shawn was a real comedy nerd. And in his later years, his favorite film was This is Spinal Tap.
Wait, I have to absorb that. You know, the stereotype of him or the caricature of him was very buttoned up, let's just say, and that was his favorite. He loved it, yeah. Incidentally, after Sean was deposed in the mid-'80s, there was this thought that entered Lorne Michaels' head at some point that he would succeed William Sean as the editor of The New Yorker. I want to know everything about that.
Sean was a mentor. If you think about our two enterprises, 50 years apart, The New Yorker's 100, SNL is now 50. A lot of what these guys do is very similar. They're corralling a gang of needy egos, figuring out how to keep the thing afloat every week, once a week. You know, they have to say no more than they can say yes. And Sean talked a lot to Lauren about succession.
And it turned out that, you know, Sean didn't manage his own succession terribly well.
No, and was under the delusion that he would go on forever somehow.
Yeah, and so Lauren definitely got this idea that... he would perhaps be asked to step into Sean's shoes. So I think when I came along, part of the New Yorker, wanting to write this book, I think a penny dropped with Lorne, and he felt there was kind of a continuity.
What's been its cultural import and importance, and why has it been able to last this long?
Well, in the beginning, it really was renegade. It started at a time when television was the Brady Bunch and Lawrence Welk. And because it was on at 11.30 late night, that time slot was like a vacant lot at the edge of town. No executives paid attention to it. No one gave notes. They could do whatever they wanted. But I think the reason it's lasted is that Lorne
He had a lot of really oddball jobs in L.A., writing for people from Phyllis Diller to Perry Como to Flip Wilson and, you know, a lot of schlock. It was that strange period of the early 70s when, you know, some of television felt like the 60s, some felt like the 50s. It was, you know, Dean Martin would have the Stones on his variety show, just almost out of obligation and, you know,
would introduce them in this disparaging way, saying, like, I've been rolled and I've been stoned, but I've never been any... Right, and even Ed Sullivan didn't seem entirely comfortable with the Beatles and rock and roll on his Sunday night show. Exactly. So the reason I bring this up is that I think Lauren was a real student of what I call sort of the hinges between eras.
In 1975, the New Yorker reviewed a new television show that aimed pretty deliberately to redefine comedy, and it came to be called Saturday Night Live.
He noticed how one time slid into another. And I think he was always determined to not be that, you know, the grandmother with a hula hoop. He wanted the show to stay current. He paid attention to replenishing the cast's In a sort of seamless way so that it would never seem like an old guy trying to do an entertainment for young people.
So in a way, the show, which was replacing Dead Air on Saturday night and kind of replacing a Johnny Carson repeat on the weekend, was to become itself rock and roll as well as just the guests being rock and roll.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, Lorne, you know, when he was toiling in L.A. at these kind of lame shows writing for Perry Como, a bunch of times he thought, God, television is just a backwater. You know, the movies, you had John Cassavetes and Terrence Malick really pushing into new territory and rock and roll was so exciting. And television was, you know, it was still the boob tube.
And he was determined to help television catch up.
Why did he want to have this be? in our capital.
When he finally got an offer from NBC to come to New York and make this show, he almost said no. He didn't want to come to New York. He wanted to do it in California. NBC's President Herb Schlosser wanted to do this show out of Rockefeller Center, which was Deadsville. Lawrence said, you know, there were deer running in the halls back then. At that time, New York was on the brink of bankruptcy.
crime everywhere, graffiti everywhere. It was very cold. Remember, this is a furrier son from Canada. He wasn't eager to get back into that climate. And he considered New York the anxiety capital of the world. But he decided it was worth it to make the show that he'd always dreamed of. And what is the show that he always dreamed of? What was it based on and how is it unique?
What it is, it's a combination of comedy sketches that reflect kind of real-world 1970s preoccupations, politics, short films, rock music. If you were to compare it to, say, Carol Burnett, which was a popular, huge hit show at the time, which I, as a kid, adored, that was for an older generation.
The cast was a bunch of unknowns. Dan Aykroyd, Gilda Radner, Chevy Chase, John Belushi. But it became such an institution, you can barely think of a comedian in the last half century who didn't go through SNL as a writer or as a performer. Here's Tina Fey, reading from the review by Michael Arlen, the New Yorker's television critic at the time, published just after the show's debut.
Their pieces were about the PTA and alcoholism and parents in the suburbs getting the garage door to work. I mean, Lorne wanted the show to be about drugs and romance and sex and just wanted it to be for his generation.
So, Susan, now when we see Lorne Michaels in those little snippets on Saturday Night Live, he's wearing an exquisite suit and he's a guy of a certain age, but he did have one big moment in the show's first season. This is from 1975. Thank you.