The Action Catalyst
Connection Over Perfection, with Matt Abrahams (Communication, Speaking, Behavior, Business)
Tue, 11 Jun 2024
Matt Abrahams, host of the Think Fast, Talk Smart business show from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, as well as an acclaimed Strategic Communication lecturer, and author of the new book Think Faster, Talk Smarter, explains why his name, in some way, led to his life’s work, and shares the secrets to spontaneous speaking, the construction of conversation, speaking up without freaking out, controlling your actual BODY during discussion, how to get out of a conversation you DON’T want to be in and how to answer a question you don’t have the answer to, listening to what’s NOT said, daring to be dull and maximizing your mediocrity, finding the third side of a coin, and the role of martial arts in all of this.
Many of us, when we're put on the spot, we want to give the best answer. We want to be the most interesting person in small talk. And that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on ourselves and makes it actually less likely we will achieve those goals. So we have to switch from perfection to connection. It's about structure, it's about focus, and it's about accessibility.
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Today's guest is Matt Abrahams, the host of the Think Fast, Talk Smart business podcast from the Stanford Graduate School of Business. as well as an acclaimed strategic communication lecturer and author of the new book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter, which focuses on actionable skills to help even the most anxious speaker under the most frantic circumstances communicate successfully.
Well, thank you for being here. We're super excited to have you. Yes. There is a lot that I want to talk about, but let me just start kind of a bigger picture and then we'll come down a little bit. So in reading a little bit about your background, I want to start with something about your name being later in the alphabet that has led to your life's work.
Yeah, not later in the alphabet, earlier in the alphabet. Earlier, okay. With the last name Abrahams, A-B, I always went first in school. I always knew where I would sit. I always knew who was going first. I was a high school teacher for a couple years, and I understand that for high school and elementary school teachers, it's really easy just to organize your life alphabetically.
But what that meant is I was always dealing with spontaneous speaking. And my latest work is really all about how to be a better spontaneous speaker. And it's something that I've been developing, some because of my last name and some because of circumstances I found myself in, really did initiate this interest in this notion of how do we speak better in the moment.
And if you think about it, most of our communication... is spontaneous. It's not planned. Somebody asks a question, ask for feedback, you're making small talk. And so we need to learn how to do this better so we can be more effective in these circumstances.
So you remember being called on, Matt, you get to go first.
Oh, even even more than that. It's like, OK, we just read the Scarlet Letter. Your turn to tell me what you think about whoever the main character was. Yeah, I was often called on first to answer questions, much to the relief of my fellow students. They were actually grateful because by the time it got to them, they had time to think and plan.
So what do you say? I would imagine, but please educate us. When you're in spontaneous conversation, there is the internal dialogue that you have to deal with at the exact same time as getting prepared to speak and attempting to not sound like an idiot. which I do enough for everybody. So tell me about that. How do you deal with that?
Well, I'm certainly happy to share. I mean, my whole goal is just to help people do better in any communication circumstance. It boils down to two things. It So we have to get our mindset and approach aligned with our goals of speaking in the moment. So first, we have to manage anxiety. Anxiety looms large in all communication, but especially in spontaneous speaking.
And then we have to reframe how we see this. First and foremost, the goal we have. Many of us, when we're put on the spot, we want to do our best. job right. We want to give the best answer. We want to give great feedback. We want to be the most interesting person in small talk.
And that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on ourselves and makes it actually less likely we will achieve those goals. So we have to switch from perfection to connection. Just have the goal be connecting and conveying the information you need rather than doing it right. And by the way, there is no right way to communicate. There are better ways and worse ways.
So the first thing we have to reframe is our goal. The second thing we have to reframe is the whole interaction. Many of us see these spontaneous speaking situations as threatening, as something we have to defend against. When somebody asks us a question, we feel challenged. When somebody asks for feedback, we feel put on the spot. And yet we need to reframe those as opportunities.
It's an opportunity to extend, to expand, to collaborate. So by reframing the goal and just the whole experience, we can do better. And then we have to think about messaging. So it's not just mindset, it's also messaging. Messaging in the moment, what can really help us is leveraging a structure. A structure provides a roadmap, a directionality.
Many of us, when we're put on the spot, we just blather. We just list information, itemize different things. And our brains are not wired for itemized information. Structure really helps. To give you an example of a structure, if you've ever watched a television ad, problem, solution, benefit is how that ad is most likely been constructed. There's a problem or challenge.
Here's a way of solving it through the product or service. And then here's the benefit. That's what a structure does. It's a logical connection of ideas. So by focusing on mindset and focusing on messaging, we can actually manage these situations very effectively and be not only less stressed, but more connected in the process.
Okay. So what is a good structure?
Oh, there's so many good structures. Don't get me started. Problem, solution, benefit, as I mentioned, comparison, contrast, conclusion, past, present, future. My favorite structure in the whole world is three simple questions. What? So what? Now what? You start with the what. The what is your idea, your feedback, your update, your product or service.
The so what is why is it important to somebody you're speaking to? What value does it bring? And then the now what is what comes next? So by leveraging a structure like this or many others, the whole second part of my new book is all about structures for different circumstances. You can actually do better. So I encourage people to find structures that work from them and then leverage it.
Now, I want to take a quick time out. I just used what, so what, now what to answer that question. I told you what the best structure was. I told you why they're important. And I encouraged everybody to find one and use it. So it's just a simple, easy way to package up information for me as a communicator. But it hopefully helps you as a listener understand it and then act on it better.
That's the power of structure.
Well done. Well done. Touche.
Thank you. Thank you. I score a point. Good.
Okay. So you talk a little bit about some science-based strategies to manage the anxiety. I think for a lot of us, that's a big part of it, that if we could just quiet that, we actually can communicate relatively well. So give me a couple of thoughts on when what's between your ears goes nuts and answering a question, how do you get that to chill out?
Yeah, it's not just what goes on between the ears. It's what goes on in your body as well. So in managing anxiety around speaking, you really, again, have to take a two-pronged approach. Everything comes in twos here. You have to manage symptoms and sources. Symptoms are the things that we physiologically experience. What happens in our body? Our heart beat faster. We might get shaky.
For me, I turn red and I blush. What happens for you, Stephanie, when you get nervous in speaking situations?
I don't know if I actually turn red, but I feel like I'm turning red.
Yeah, we feel that getting hotter. Yes, absolutely. These are very normal and natural reactions, symptoms. And then there are sources that we can deal with as well. Let's start with the symptoms. There are many things we can do. My first book was called Speaking Up Without Freaking Out. And there were 50 techniques based on academic research that can help us feel better. Let me give you just a few.
One is to take deep belly breaths. Deep breathing tends to work for most people. By taking a deep inhalation, filling your lower abdomen. If you've ever done yoga or tai chi, it's that deep breathing. And then the key is the exhalation. You want your exhale to be longer than your inhale. And the longer your exhale is, the more impact you have.
So just taking two or three deep breaths like this slows down your heart rate, slows down your speaking rate, stops some of the shakiness, and allows your voice to be deep and resonant. When we get nervous, we breathe shallow and our voices change.
If you get shaky, besides deep breathing, big, broad movements, moving your body forward if you're physically in front of people standing, that allows that adrenaline, which is causing the shakiness, to dissipate. And if you're like me and you, turning red or feeling hot, that's the result of your heart beating faster, your body tensing up. It's like you're exercising.
Your blood pressure is going up. And what we need to do is cool ourselves down. And a great way to do that is hold something cold in the palms of your hand. The palms of your hand are thermoregulators for your body. On a cold morning, I am certain you've held a warm cup of tea or coffee and felt it warm you up just by holding it.
We can do the reverse by holding a cold bottle of water and it causes you to sweat less, blush less. So those are some things we can do for symptoms. Sources are the things that initiate or exacerbate our anxiety. We've talked about some of that reframing we can do in terms of connection over perfection, seeing it as an opportunity.
A good one also is many of us are made nervous by the goal that we are trying to achieve. When you're speaking, you have a goal. My students want to get a good grade. The entrepreneurs I coach want to get funding. You might have a great idea you want people to adopt. And we're nervous that we won't achieve it. So that means we're afraid or being made afraid of something that is in the future.
And the best way to short circuit that is to become in the present. So you can do something physical. You can listen to a song or a playlist like athletes do. You can start at 100 and count backwards by a challenging number like 17s. There's a lot you can do to bring yourself in the present moment.
So by managing symptoms and sources, we can actually tame that anxiety beast and be more comfortable speaking planned or spontaneously.
So you are quoted as saying, daring to be dull.
Yes. So this goes back to that notion that we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do our communication right. So I borrow an idea from the world of improvisation. When I did the research I did into speaking spontaneously, I looked across many fields, psychology, anthropology, neuroscience, and even improvisation. And it would probably have these wonderful sayings, dare to be dull.
I've actually turbocharged that and encouraged people to maximize their mediocrity. By striving just to get it done rather than to do it perfectly, you actually free up more cognitive bandwidth to focus on what you're doing. Think of it this way. If I am constantly judging and evaluating everything I say, I have less bandwidth to focus on what I'm saying.
And this is why memorizing is so bad for us. When we memorize, we've created the right way to say it. And as I'm speaking, I'm constantly comparing back and forth. And that means I have less energy to focus directly on the communication that I'm trying to do.
So daring to be dull, maximizing mediocrity is all about focusing on the audience we're speaking to, that connection, and letting go of that perfection. So we're dialing down the volume on how we're internally focused, and we're actually increasing the volume on how we're externally focused. Okay.
There's another phrase in improv that I think is so powerful for many of us when it comes to spontaneous speaking, which is do what needs to be done. Nothing more, nothing less. Many of us get in our heads and say, how do I answer this right? How do I not offend somebody? So sometimes daring to be dull, doing what needs to be done is all you need to do.
And that helps you be effective in that moment.
Love it. Okay. How do you get out of a conversation that you don't want to be in?
Okay. Yes. So that can be very challenging. So one of the main areas I talk about in the second part of the book is small talk. And small talk is one of these things where we often find ourselves in conversations that we don't want to be part of and we need to get out of them. I, on my podcast, Think Fast, Talk Smart, had the pleasure of interviewing someone named Rachel Greenwald.
Rachel is fascinating. She is an academic and a professional matchmaker, and she has wonderful advice. And she taught me what I call or what she calls and what I use is the white flag approach. And it doesn't mean surrender. It doesn't mean you're in a situation, a conversation you don't want to be in and you surrender. Rather, in auto racing, they signal the last lap by waving the white flag.
It tells all the drivers that we're about to end the race. In conversation, you can exit politely by simply waving the white flag. Simply say, in a few minutes, I want to go talk to somebody over there. But before I go and you ask another question or you share some information with them about something they said.
So you continue the conversation just a little bit longer and then you excuse yourself. Now, because you've previewed that you're excusing yourself, nobody's surprised. There's less awkwardness. It gives the other person or people a chance to figure out what they're going to do so they're not just left there in a strange way.
And it gets us away from the exiting of most awkward conversations that we do, which is through biology. I'm hungry. I'm thirsty. I have to go to the bathroom. So instead, by waving the white flag, it's just much easier. It's much more graceful. And I use it all the time. And it works.
OK, second part of that. How do you answer a question that you don't have an answer for?
Yes. And many of us find ourselves in these situations. So you say, I don't know. Right. So when somebody says, you know, ask you a question and you don't know the answer, you say, I don't know. But you immediately follow it up with what you're going to do to find the answer out and give a time frame for when you will get back to them.
And if you have a hunch or an inkling as to what the answer might be, you can say that. So I might say something like, I don't know that answer. I'm going to go talk to Stephanie and I'm going to get back to you within 24 hours. My hunch is the answer is this. Now, many of us feel that when we don't know an answer, that that's horrific, that that's awful.
In fact, the expectation that you know everything is pretty strange, right? It's not reasonable, right?
also many of us feel that we lose credibility in those moments we don't know answers there's some preliminary research that says actually saying you don't know saying how you're going to find out and then actually following up bolsters your credibility as much if not more than when you had you initially answered the the question
Now, obviously, you don't use this as a ploy and purposely do this to boost your credibility. But we worry that it's going to put us at a disadvantage. And in fact, by demonstrating tenacity, by demonstrating that you have the wherewithal to figure out and find out information, that actually helps you in these circumstances. So we need to let go of that notion that we need to know everything.
Now, obviously, if people are asking lots of questions and you don't know many of the answers, that's a different situation, one where there's probably a mismatch between your expertise and the demands of the circumstance. So saying I don't know is not the end of the world, and it may actually be OK and helpful. Super helpful.
Okay. Negative feedback. What's a good way when you know, and again, I am not talking about being mean or mean spirited or anything with malintent, but constructive, but you know, will be received as negative feedback.
Yes. So first and foremost, I am a disciple of Kim Scott and Radical Candor. I think her work is fantastic. Kim is a friend. She's actually a neighbor. And so that approach that feedback is something that can be beneficial and is something that needs to be given constantly, not just constructive feedback, but positive feedback, neutral feedback.
And in giving feedback all the time, any one instance of constructive feedback is perceived very differently than if there's no feedback and then all of a sudden constructive feedback. I see constructive negative feedback as an opportunity to problem solve. And when you reframe it as such, it changes the way you approach the whole thing.
Now, certainly there are things that people do that need to be stopped right away. It's inappropriate. It's wrong. You're not going to say, hey, let's have a conversation about it. No, you just have to stop it. But for most constructive feedback. It is in your best interest to collaborate with the person to actually achieve results.
So first, see it as an invitation to problem solves, which means you want to invite the person in rather than making them defensive. So it changes the tone and the language that you use. I have a structure that I love to use for problems. Feedback, especially spontaneous feedback. It's four I's, four I's like glasses.
It helps you see better, but each step starts with the letter I. The first is information. It's the objective reason I'm giving you the feedback. Imagine you're a manager and you have an employee who consistently shows up late and unprepared to meetings. I might start the feedback by saying, this is now the third time you've been over five minutes late for the meeting. That's information.
It's level setting. It's here's what the feedback is on. It's objective. Anybody attending the meeting would say, yep, that person's late and it's the third time. The second I is impact. What does this mean for you, the giver of the feedback? And this is where we use I language. I feel, I think, I believe. When I use you language, that sounds accusatory and likely makes you defensive.
So I might say, I feel you're not prioritizing this meeting the same way the rest of us are. The third I is the invitation. I might ask it as a question. I might say, what can we do to help make sure you show up on time to the next meeting? That's an invitation as formed as a question. I could make an invitation that is a declarative sentence.
I'd like for you to attend the next meeting five minutes early. And then finally, the final I, the fourth I is implication. These are consequences. They can be positive or negative. If you show up on time to the next meeting, we'll finish this project earlier and get a new really cool one. Or I might say, if you don't show up on time next time, we might have to remove you from the team.
So it's information, impact, invitation, and implications. And if you remember the four I's, not only does it package up the feedback in a way the recipient can understand it, It also helps you as the giver to prioritize what you say so that the feedback is clearer. We have all been the recipient of feedback that's vague, and we're trying to figure out, what do I do? What was actually asked of me?
So having it structured this way as an invitation can help you and the recipient.
I'm going to go flip the coin a little bit.
Mm-hmm.
So we talk a lot about communication as a society and as a culture, both professionally and personally or as individuals. There has been this like tremendous ramp up over the last 20 years to really understanding the importance of communication. And now what I'm hearing a lot of is the word communication saying, hey, it's not just the communication, it's the comprehension.
Share with me the other side of the coin, the comprehension.
Yeah. So communication is a two-way street, right? There's a very simple but famous model of communication that's called the transactional model. There's a sender and a receiver, and the sender has to get the message to the receiver in a way that they understand it. So it's not just about broadcasting, it's about helping people comprehend. And there's several things that help do that.
One we've already talked about, and that is the structuring of a message. Our brains are not wired to receive lists. We don't remember lists well, bullets kill, don't kill people with bullet points. You know, in fact, I'd ask you, Stephanie, how many items do you need to have on a shopping list before you actually have to write it down? For me, it's three.
If I have to go to the grocery store and get more than three things, I have to write it down or I'll forget something. Our brains just aren't wired for lists. So structure helps. The other thing we have to do to help is we have to focus our messages. I believe the most precious commodity we have in the world today is attention.
One of the reasons people don't comprehend, remember, or act on our messages is they're being bombarded with so many. So we have to focus our messages to make them clear and concise so our audience understands it. So we need to make sure that we package them up through structure, but also make them incredibly relevant and goals focused.
If they're focused on a goal and relevant to our audience, they're more likely to understand and comprehend what we're saying. And the final thing we have to think about is whenever we speak, we suffer from the curse of knowledge and the curse of passion. We know a lot about what we're speaking on and we're really passionate about it.
We need to make sure that we translate our messages so our audience understand it. We often will use jargon and acronyms and terminology that our audiences don't necessarily understand. So we have to translate it so that they can really appreciate it. So it's about structure, it's about focus, and it's about accessibility. That's what helps people comprehend our messages.
Very good. OK, so I heard this phrase last week and I really liked it. And we are all very familiar with the term two sides of the coin. And this person that was going to explain something said to me, hey, there are two sides to every coin, but there's also the ring around the coin.
the outside of the coin so while it's not perceived as a side of a coin it is part of it so for in listening to you and hearing this message of communication and setting ourselves up to communicate in a way that can be comprehended my understanding is that you have had some extensive martial arts training as well and maybe this has been the circle around your coin
There are lots of circles around my coin. Thank you. Yes, I grew up in a family of people who talk all the time, so I had to learn to be louder and more focused. I grew up in a family of teachers, so I've always been focused on that. But yes, martial arts has played a big part of my life. I've studied martial arts for over four decades, many different styles. I've taught martial arts.
I still teach martial arts. So yes, it's had a huge impact on my life. And quite frankly, I think everybody should have some physical outlet that helps them explore the issues of their lives in a different way. You know, I have chosen a very cerebral profession where we do research, we teach, we talk about, we discuss, we debate.
And I think it's important to have some physical outlet where you can still deal with some of those same issues. And maybe it's hiking, maybe it's a musical instrument, maybe it's doing something else with your hands. But really for me, martial arts has been really, really important.
So how? I mean, thank you for saying that. But for people who don't have a super physicality to them, they often go, yeah, I hear it's great. Okay.
Right. So the martial arts for me helps me be helps me be more present oriented. You know, people see the martial arts as just physical and you watch these things on TV where people are just pummeling each other. And that's maybe one tiny portion of the martial arts.
But martial arts are very spiritual, very connected, very, very psychological endeavor, as is, I believe, any sport at a certain level. And so for me, it helps me be more present oriented. It helps me when I'm practicing to just be in the moment, gets me in touch with my body and my breath. When you're working with another person, let me tell you, the feedback comes in lots of ways.
But in the martial arts, it's very direct and sometimes quite painful. And you learn from it. So it's helped me be present. It's helped me listen. And people think listening in the martial arts. You know, when you're doing what you do in the martial arts, you have to pay acute attention and you're focused and listening to how somebody moves, how they breathe, what their tendencies are.
These are all skills that help me, I believe, in my day to day life. It also is a space where I do it for me and it's a way of recharging and revitalizing myself. So I have a whole lot of benefit that comes to me personally, just like I think anybody can find in any physical endeavor.
Very cool. Okay, tell me a little bit about the books and then tell me a little bit about your podcast.
Excellent. Thank you for the opportunity. So I've written two books. The first book is Speaking Up Without Freaking Out. It really tries to help people find ways to manage anxiety. Everybody is different when it comes to anxiety. The one thing that is true is most people feel anxiety when speaking.
And so the book is really designed to present different options, tools, and tactics that you can use. Even though there are 50 in the book, the hope is that three or four will work for you. Not everybody responds the same way. And then the newest book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter, is all about what we started to speak on, which is how to speak better in the moment.
So the first part of the book is a methodology. It's a methodology I developed to help our Stanford MBA students, but it applies to everybody. And then the second part of the book highlights very specific situations like we talked about, feedback and small talk, but also how do you make apologies? How do you introduce yourself? How do you answer questions?
So these are all very specific, spontaneous speaking situations that the book addresses. And then finally, the podcast, Think Fast, Talk Smart. We've been on air for almost four and a half years now. We focus exclusively on communication. We're sponsored by Stanford's Graduate School of Business. 20-minute episodes where I get to interview just amazing experts in communication.
And we talk about everything from how to be persuasive, how to negotiate, how to manage conflict, how to brand yourself and actually position yourself well. Super fascinating, super fun. And I'm really excited that we've won lots of prestigious awards, but we were also nominated in a one best dog walking podcast because we're exactly 20 minutes.
And apparently that's how long people walk their dog.
That's awesome. What a great recognition. Anything at all we have not spoken on or talked about that you want to?
So there's one thing that's important, I think, to think about, and that is listening. Listening is actually a really important communication skill, but it's actually critical for spontaneous speaking. You know, I've talked a lot about what we do to communicate our messages out, but we also have to listen to understand better what is needed in the moment. We all don't listen that well.
We listen just enough to get the top level of what somebody is saying. So we need to listen deeper. We need to listen for the bottom line, not the top line. We need to listen not just to what's said, but what's not said, how it's said, where it's said. And that can actually influence how we respond. I'll give you a quick example.
Imagine you and I come out of a meeting and you say, hey, Matt, how do you think that went? If I'm just listening for the top line, I say, oh, she wants feedback. And I might start diving into here are all the things we could have done better. Here are the things that weren't great. But if I would have listened more fully, I might have noticed you came out the back door, not the front door.
You spoke more quietly than usual. You were looking down. All of this might clue me into the fact that you really don't want feedback. What you really want is support because you're not feeling that that went well. So by listening more astutely for the bottom line, I can respond better and perhaps help our relationship rather than hurting it.
Okay. This sounds like a preview to your next book.
I don't know if there's a next book, but I definitely am spending a lot of time talking about listening and talking a lot about how to collaborate with people and manage through conflicts and challenges that happen.
And thank you so much for being here. This has been incredible. I've taken a page and a half of notes. I hope you didn't mind.
No, not at all.
And I just really appreciated your time and willingness to share.
This was fun. I enjoyed the conversation very much. It was lovely to chat with you. Thank you. And I appreciate the opportunity.
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