Support the D.A.W.G.Z. @ patreon.com/MSsecretpod Support James by Watching his new documentary 'The Program' - OUT NOW! Follow him on IG @jamesfoxdirector Go See Matt Live @ mattmccusker.com/dates Go See Shane Live @ shanemgillis.com yo0o0o0o0. We're here. This week Cusky is joined by author and documentary filmmaker James Fox. They take to the podiums to discuss his new film The Program (out now) and many other extraterrestrial / UAP phenomena. Please enjoy. God Bless. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames Exclusive $35-off Carver Mat at https://auraframes.com/. Use code MSSP at checkout to save! The Mountain is calling, you should answer #DoTheDew #MTNDEW Shop now @ https://lets.shop/2141/dothedew This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/MSSP and get on your way to being your best self.
James Fox, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on, man.
Thanks for having me on.
You have your new documentary, The Program, I believe.
Yes, it dropped today. Dude, that's crazy. Dropping right now.
How about the timing, dude? You couldn't have planned that better with the goddamn fucking...
I literally had an Air Force colonel text me, and he goes, so what's up with the promotion? You managed to get a full-on alien invasion on the release of your film. How did you coordinate that?
Hey, man, there's just larger forces at play, so that's all that is.
Yeah, no, I welcome it. I mean, you know, within reason. Yeah, for sure. I don't want people to panic.
Yeah, well, dude, here's all. So to be honest, I was watching the documentary last night and I was I was just like on the way to a holiday party and I just I got really stoned from a vape pen. I haven't been smoking like that. And I was just like launched and I started watching your documentary and I got like I started bugging out.
I started thinking about just the vastness of the cosmos and just kind of the, you know, the inevitability of there's got to be some other sort of consciousness there. or life form out there. And it's like, I was bugging. I was like with my wife and I was like, they turned it off.
I'm freaking out right now.
What point did you turn it off? When we got to that, the NASA conference or before?
It was before that. But we were, I just started thinking about it because there was all, it was all these like, you know, there's these like Congress meetings and all these people. And it was like the line that, I don't know if it was from that or someone said it, but it's like, why would these people put their credibility at risk for no reason?
No. Yeah. No.
Come on.
there's a there there yeah so it's like and so you know just tell us a little bit about the documentary how did you get into all that and like what did you what kind of like launched you into identifying uh the uaps now not ufos yeah well yeah so yeah ufos unidentified flying objects and it went to uap unidentified aerial phenomenon and then it because they're coming in and out of the oceans as well they changed it to unidentified anomalous phenomenon that's where we're at right now
To me, it's like they're just making it harder and harder to say to obscure the truth. That's what I'm coming. It's like you unidentified on alarm. I can't even say it.
So I'm like, now I'm out of the race. You know, and UFOs had a bit of baggage. There was always sort of that knee jerk reaction when you mentioned UFO. So I think they wanted to kind of, you know, steer away from that. Yeah, get into the UAP stuff. And it's really funny. I think it was today or it was last night. Senator Schumer, Senate Majority Leader Schumer, is being hammered in the press.
I don't know if you've seen it yet or not. And the guy's like, you don't know what it is. Therefore, it's a UAP. You wrote the legislation. Don't you remember? He's like, well, we don't know what they are. Therefore, it's a UAP.
He was probably so blazed when he wrote the legislation.
They want to say drones because UAP has people freaking out. Charged, yeah. And it's so funny, too, because they're going... Well, we have absolutely no idea what it is, but everyone's fine. Everything's safe. There's nothing to worry about here. Sure. So there are just like tons of drones popping up and everyone's freaking out because nobody knows whose they are.
I initially, you know, on first look, I was like, oh, it sounds, you know, conventional because, you know, UAP demonstrated technology that sort of light years advancement anything we have. But then I started doing a little deeper dive, and I'm hearing reports that they're evading the military, radar, FLIR. They go dark. Oh, really? They have a loiter time of hours and hours and hours.
Then the Coast Guard reported being followed over the ocean. I mean, just something weird is going on. I don't know exactly what it is or who's behind it, but people are scratching their heads.
That would be crazy if it truly was like an alien consciousness, but this was their like mall kiosk of them like flying around holiday toys and being like, check this out. Watch us freak out the humans. Look at them run. So just take us through. You don't have to obviously give the whole documentary away, but it's like, how did you get into that? And like, how...
Like, to what depth does this whole phenomenon go? Because like you were saying, when I grew up, it was just like aliens, and you'd get a poster with black lights of an alien being like, peace, man. Right. But yeah, the more you hear about it, like, it just came out of nowhere. Like, the government, I feel like a couple years ago, was like, oh, by the way, aliens are probably real.
And everyone was just like, what the fuck? What are you guys doing right now?
Yeah, well, I mean, so how that came about... I'll back up a little bit and tell you how I got into it. And I had a father who was a journalist. He was a quadriplegic with MS. And so at a very early age, I was traveling around the world with him because I was his legs. I was his chauffeur. I was his nurse, his secretary. You know, we just traveled together. He was a mainstream journalist.
We interviewed people like Stephen Hawking and race car legend Dan Gurney and just did a lot of cool stuff together. And so I had a sneak preview into journalism pretty early on in my life through my dad.
And then I had a high school buddy of mine that when we graduated, we were 18 and we flew to Europe and we bought a used car, Rene Harris, and we bought a used car, drove from London down to Portugal. We were really close, man. We were like brothers. And then we parted ways for like a year or two as things done. He had different things going on, whatever. And then I, you know, reunited with him.
And he was suddenly into this whole UFO thing. And I was like, oh, God, Rene, man. Like, I remember thinking I'm going to have to cut my best friend loose. Like, this is really unfortunate, you know. And he was talking about Roswell and UFO crash and alien bodies. And I honestly thought he'd lost his mind. I mean, I really did.
Yeah.
What year was this, roughly? 90, probably 93. Yeah. Maybe 94, 93. You were looked at as crazy back then for it. Oh, absolutely. And so anyway, I was apprenticing at a video production company, and I went into work, and I was telling my buddy Richard Van Sickle about it, and I had really looked up to. He was 10 years my senior and really professional, great guy.
And I was like, oh, man, my really good friend has suddenly gone off on the deep end. He's into UFOs and aliens and spaceships that crashed and Roswell and whatever. My buddy Richard looks at me, he goes, you didn't know about Roswell? I was like, how would I know about Roswell? No, I don't know about Roswell. How would I know about Roswell?
He goes, well, the government actually admitted that they did recover a fly. Really? He goes, yeah, check it out. Like, they actually admitted it. And then the very people that were involved in the cover-up came forward on camera before they died saying it was original, the original press release was correct. So I was like, oh my gosh. I started looking into it.
Went to a few conferences, met a few military guys, and I was like, God, maybe there's something going on here. And so I told my dad, I was like, you know, I was doing video production at the time, and I was doing PSAs and things of that sort. And I was like, I think I'm going to do a documentary on UFOs. And my dad was like, oh, my God, please, son, don't do that.
Like, there's... He literally said that it's a dead-end street. There's nothing to it. You're wasting your life. Please. Not only did he... was begging me, and he had all of my other members, because I was born in England, of the family, writing me letters, saying, your dad is very concerned about you. Oh, you were getting, like, English letters about it. Don't do it.
That'd be tough. There's, like, a scolding. I'm reading Bertrand Russell's autobiography, and there's a lot of, like, English letters, and they're pretty, yeah, they'll get you, man.
Anyway, so.
Stinging letter.
My grandmother used to call me a rapscallion, you know.
Hooligan, you scyther! Freaking into the house at all hours of the morning.
Yeah, she was hilarious. So my family's like, please reconsider. Your dad's very concerned. And I just was like, well, you know, of course, being a Taurus, I'm a bit stubborn. And I just went all in. And I think it took me about four years. And I was at the end of it. I was like, I'm never doing another UFO doc ever again. But I sold it to Discovery Channel. It aired on Learning Channel.
And I kind of got the last laugh. And then I got invited to Russia, because I'd been, I got invited to Russia, which I ended up going in the late 90s and meeting with generals and cosmonaut Pavel Popovich. And then I got an invitation to meet with Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper, because I'd been trying to get interviews with him on my first doc.
And then all of a sudden I was like, well, I guess I'm doing another doc, because I got all these amazing interviews and I went to Russia and stuff. And so I did another one, and that one was called Out of the Blue. And that took me five years. Okay. And I finished that and I said, never again. I remember my partner was in a fetal position crying and his wife's like, you're killing my husband.
Like, stop.
What was wrong with him? We're pushing each other so hard, so hard to do a good doc, right? It's like you just get to the end and you're, I mean, I'd been there myself. I just, you're broken. Yeah. And so I was like, well, I guess the documentary is done because I didn't really feel like it was where it needed to be. But we were all out of steam. We were out of money.
I pushed my partner to the brink of death.
and his wife was screaming at me like you know so I was like all right so then we sold that to NBC Universal and it aired as a two-hour special on the sci-fi channel and then three years later I owned the rights again and I was like I'm gonna I'm gonna pick this back up and make it to the film I always wanted it to be so I spent a couple more years on Out of the Blue and I released that as a director's cut and in the process of that I broke a big story with the governor of Arizona Fife Simonton who there's a very famous Phoenix Lights case that happened in
February, sorry, March 13th, 1997. And the governor poo-pooed it at the time. And then 10 years later, I met up with him. It's like, why did you poo-poo it? You had one of your aides dressed up as an alien. He came and mocked the whole thing and all your constituents were upset and He admitted that he saw it, too. So then that happened and exploded in the headlines. What did he see?
Oh, he saw the lights. Oh, he saw a craft. He saw a big, all-connected boomerang shape. He said it must have been a mile from wingtip to wingtip across because it was so big. Why did he poo-poo it, though? He said just well, he said that there was overwhelming fear, like people were just freaking out. He contacted the local Air Force base, Luke Air Force base.
He contacted the Pentagon and they all shrugged their shoulders, according to him, and said, we don't know what the hell that thing was. What? So anyway, I broke that story, and then I got... I hope you don't mind I'm giving you a longer version of this. No, no, I like it, dude. Yeah, yeah. So I broke that story, and it catapulted me into the limelight.
I mean, we were on all the talk shows, Larry King Live, with the governor, and I thought, gosh... this would be a really good time to capitalize on this attention because media coverage is very fleeting and it only happens, you're lucky if it happens once in a lifetime. So I was like, hey, let me capitalize on this and let me do an event at the National Press Club
And so I did with my friend Leslie Kane, and it was 2007, and we flew in 14 military and government officials from seven countries and held an event at the National Press Club. And I shot the whole thing on HD, and then I ended up making a movie about that, which I sold to A&E called I Know What I Saw, and it was a two-hour History Channel special. So then I was just like, I'm done with UFOs.
I'm done. One of the things I've learned is never say never because I've said that so many times in the past. But then I stepped away from it for a little while. Excuse me. I did a film on the BP oil spill in 2010. Has that ever gotten cleaned up?
Are the waters good now from that?
I don't know if they're going to realize the long-term environmental impacts because they were pumping Corexit 5,000 feet down into the oil, trying to keep it from surfacing because they get fined for all the surface oil. Oh, really? So they hide it with the Corexit, which they'd never done subsea injection before, so they did that. And just blanket it down on the bottom.
They dumped more corrections into the Gulf ever before, more than they'd ever done anywhere. It was a huge lab test in the Gulf. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
I've been personally boycotting BP forever since that.
I won't give a gas. So I got it. Okay, there's only two times where I've almost been killed. I've been threatened to be killed in all my filmmaking years. One of them was when I did the BP oil spill film.
There was a fisherman, he was head of fisheries for a number of different states, and he met with me secretly and he was giving me photographs of the fish impact that it was having on these species from the crexit and the oil. They had like cysts and boils and oh, just disgusting. He gave me these photographs and he goes, You reveal my identity, boy, I will hunt you down and slit your throat.
Do we have an understanding? I said, yes, sir, we do. He wasn't kidding. He was like, he goes, because I run the fisheries, I'm shooting myself in the foot along with a lot of other people, but I can't in good conscience let the people eat this stuff not knowing what's going on, like turn a big lab experiment. The other time I almost got shot in the face is when I was making Moment of Contact.
I don't know if you ever saw that film. It's about a UFO crash in Brazil. I was there with my buddy Marco Leal for like,
12 years on and off and i made a film called moment of contact it was released in 2022 yeah late 2022 and uh we tracked down a guy who'd been hiding for 26 years who allegedly was driving the car during the second capture of a live alien i know it sounds nuts i'm with you well no no explain that i don't know what you're talking about It was a UFO crash that took place in 1996 in Varginha, Brazil.
I had been looking into it for 12 years. I didn't believe it when I first heard about it. In fact, I was making my first UFO documentary, actually my second UFO documentary out of the blue when I heard about the crash. It happened in 96. I was making it in like 99, 2000 is when I started. I heard about it, but I was like, that's impossible.
They don't have a UFO crash and live aliens walking through the town. No way. So I took 10 years before I even, like almost 10 years before I would even, actually it was over 10 years before I would even look into it. And then I ended up spending about 12 years. But in any case. A UFO was spotted in trouble. It was a cylindrical shape object, like a cigar. It was like an aluminum kind of shape.
No wings, no visible means of propulsion. It had, according to the witnesses that I interviewed, and they're all on camera, it had a gash in the back of it and it had sort of a white...
vapor coming out the backside and it was definitely in trouble because all the people who claimed to have seen it said it was just it was struggling to stay in the air and then eventually crashed two days later in the town of Virginia just a few miles away people reported these strange creatures and and then there were two according to the authorities and military people that information had leaked out and the researchers locally two or three of the creatures were captured and
And the second capture was involving a police officer by the name of Marco Sherez. And the driver of that car, Ed, oh, sorry, Lopes, Eric Lopes. And Eric Sherez died within a couple of weeks of touching the creature. He manhandled it and took it to the local hospital. He got a weird infection and then died. Damn, dude, really? Yeah, it's true. Hey, no alien music. Sorry.
So so so the only other living witness to that second capture was was the driver, Eric Lopes, who's also a police officer.
And he was so he was just driving. The other guy apprehended.
Yeah, he was actually on duty that night and they were told him be on the lookout for some something strange, some real strange. They didn't say live aliens or anything like that. They just be on the lookout. We're looking for something. So he calls his buddy, Marco, who was actually off that night, Marco Cherise. And he's like, hey, I got this weird assignment tonight.
Like they're saying there's something weird, something weird on the loose or I don't know. You want to come with me? So they team up. He jumps in the car. Off they go. They see it. It ran across the road in front of them, slammed the brakes on. Marco jumps out of the car, grabs the thing, puts it in the back of the car, takes it to Humanitas Hospital.
What did they say it looked like?
It was brown. You could look it up. Varginha creature. It had a big head, big red eyes. It had brown, oily skin, frail, weak, struggling, suffering, all the witnesses said. And then Marco Chirisi had this like oily, greasy, he was like rubbing his body down with rubbing alcohol afterwards. And then he got this infection. We interviewed the doctors that worked on him.
He died and they couldn't explain it. They were like, they'd never seen anything like that bacteria ever. Somehow his body just had no defense against it and he died. So the only living witness to that incident, that particular capture is Eric Lopes.
so the driver yes so i got in touch with the with the with the mayor i they actually interviewed the mayor of the town this guy uh verge verge and um and he's like hey is there anything i can do to help you guys i believe this happened i want to get the story out i think the world needs to know i was like yeah there's something you could do could you help me locate this guy eric lopes he's been mia for 26 years and he was apparently driving the car so we go to his house
Really spooky, right? The guy's off the beaten path, get to his house, and... Oh, you got... Yeah, that's the creature. That's it.
Jesus, man.
Yep, that's it. Mm-hmm.
Oh, fuck.
Yep, that was witnessed in broad daylight by three girls, Valkyria, Liliani, and Katya. Two of them are sisters. Broad daylight. They got within 10 feet of that creature in broad daylight. Damn. Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah.
So anyway, we get to Eric Lopes' house, and he... I don't speak Portuguese, but he was, like, apparently telling everyone, you know, get the hell out of there, or he's going to start spraying bullets.
What?
And he said it, like, three or four times, and then I looked over at the guy, the translator, and he looked at me, and he was just like this. Eric Lopes was looking out the window right above me, and I was looking at his eyes going, God, that guy's seen something. I don't know. Man. He had looked like he was so burdened with... with something. You see it in his eyes.
I remember I'd never looked into someone's eyes that had that profound, like he was just burdened with something really intense. Did he look like afraid or he just looked kind of like just distant? He looked like he'd been shouldering something so profound, so deep, so deeply, profoundly disturbing, and that he couldn't share it with anybody. That's what it looked like.
Oh, man.
But anyway, I was confused. But anyway, that was a second time. Only, yeah, two times where I actually was, like, threatened.
Threatened to be shot. Okay, wow, okay.
Yeah, threatened to be shot. That's crazy. So you didn't even get to talk to the guy. He wouldn't talk. Well, funny enough, it's really funny, actually, because he said, and you can see it in the movie, when we rolled up, he's like, if you're here to talk about the E.T., Eric won't talk. And he referred to himself in the third person, which is weird. And then he was like, Eric's not here.
And then it's like, I'm going to start shooting right now. Bullets out of here. And I kept asking, I didn't know what he was saying. So I kept trying to get a question in like to my translator and the translator could looking at me like, dude, just chill, you know? And then finally he looked at me like, it's time to go like this, that look, you don't need to speak any language to get that look.
It was like, we're leaving now, period. Yeah. And I was like, shit, what's going on? Anyway, so yeah, that was... What do you think happened to him?
Do you think he got inhabited or something?
Just imagine for a moment if he really was the driver that was involved in the capture of a live alien. I'm not saying believe it or unbelieve it, but if it did happen and then your best friend dies...
yeah and now the family and the world wants to know what happened you can't talk and if because your life has been threatened right yeah so you have to shoulder that burden for 26 years right yeah so if it happened you can imagine how disturbing that was and you know he's military intelligence so you know he's armed to the teeth i'm sure and i would talk to some other fellow brazilian ufo researchers uber de jaro rodriguez this guy pacaccini
And he was like, oh, yeah, back in 26 years ago, we wouldn't go near air globes. I was like, why not? He goes, everybody knew that guy was packing. He was going to open fire. I was like, well, now you guys tell me. Jesus Christ, I went to the guy's house. I probably almost got shot in the face. That would have sucked so bad.
That would have been a real bummer. Oh, that would have sucked. Yeah.
So anyway, so coming off the heels of that. I, you know, because I did a film called The Phenomenon, right, which covers the phenomenon from the 40s up to relatively modern day, 2017, 2020, whatever. Yeah. And then I naturally, the natural progression would have been to go on from The Phenomenon to the program, which is out now. But I had unfinished business with this alleged UFO crash case.
And so I went back to Brazil like a fifth time, and I filmed Moment of Contact, right? And at the very end of it all, and I totally believed it. In fact, I remember taking one of the audio guys, he lived in Rio de Janeiro, and this guy Guy, and he goes, Oh, yeah, we heard about that story back 26 years ago. Nobody believes it. It's like, you know, kind of like Roswell, you know? For sure, yeah.
Then I took him on all the shoots, and he was like, holy shit, this happened, you know? And I said, yeah, I wouldn't waste 12 years of my time if I didn't. Yeah. So at the last week or so of filming in Brazil, a flight control officer with the Brazilian military, because flight control, fire department, police, they're all connected to the military, said,
He came forward and said, yeah, I saw the United States Air Force plane come in and land in Campinas. Wait, what did you say, what? So it was confirmed the United States Air Force was involved with this UFO crash case. Okay. That the United States Air Force flew in to a place called Campinas. And then from Campinas, I know, right? I know, Virginia and Campinas, right?
It doesn't get any better than that.
It's Campinas. Can you believe it? Virginia Camp Penis. I know.
Sorry. I thought my mind was just making tricks. I thought you might have known about this case. I'm sorry. No, Camp Penis. Joe Rogan talked about it for a year. Virginia Camp Penis. Yeah. I wish I knew. I know. I know. So there was an alien invasion.
Virginia.
I know, you can't make this stuff up. I know. Okay, so what happened? So the last time I was there after 12 years of filming on and off, a guy comes forward and he was with flight control with the Brazilian government, military. And he's like, yeah, I was on duty that night and I saw, this is January 20th, 1996, and I saw USAF come in. And I was like, USAF? Oh, United States Air Force, USAF.
Flight come in and didn't have authorization to land. So he told some folks, like, I can't let this guy land. You need authorization. And then a higher-up stepped in the room and said, let him land. So he goes, yeah, this thing landed. Then two helicopters, one or two helicopters, were unloaded, and they were flown to Virginia.
They picked up some stuff, came back to the Campinas, loaded it on the plane, and the United States Air Force plane, back to the United States. Yeah. So that was when I became aware of the fact that, wow, there probably is a crash retrieval program going on. So when I started doing the program... the film that's out now, it was almost personal for me, right? Because I had no idea.
Like I was on Joe Rogan talking about Moment of Contact in April of 2023. Well, in July of 2023, the highest level intel officer, David Grush, testified under oath to a bipartisan group of lawmakers that there is a crash retrieval program and he found it. Damn. Yeah. So the program kind of covers...
This unprecedented push for transparency on what the intel agencies really know about the phenomenon, right?
What kicked that off? I was curious about that. This is my thing. If things are top secret, you have these giant mechanisms of power controlling and hiding things. I do find it funny that they're like, you swear you're telling the truth? And they're like, nah, you fucking got me, dude. Yes, I pinky promise. It's a weird system we still do.
It's like, you better tell the truth. You got me. So people think that the government suddenly had an epiphany and decided to be more transparent on the UFO phenomenon. That's not what happened.
Yeah, I doubt that.
Yeah, right. What happened was there were a couple of intel insiders, Christopher Mellon being one of them, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, along with Lou Elizondo and a handful of others, just a small handful, that protested because of excessive secrecy.
They found a loophole and walked some evidence from the Pentagon out on the front page of the New York Times, and that happened in December of 2017. So they can't put the genie back in the bottle, right? The more people keep coming forward now, more people coming forward. And then Congress started getting wind.
They were having behind-doors meetings with some of these witnesses, and they were like, ooh, there's a there there. Wow. Then they had the first congressional hearing by a guy named Andre Carson, Congressman Andre Carson. That was 2022. They had a hint of a crash retrieval program that was revealed through a memo, the Davis-Wilson memo.
Then they had congressional hearings in July of 2023, and that's when it was all out. David Grush said, yeah, we have a crash retrieval program. And then recently, just a month ago, we had more congressional hearings, which I attended. And Lou Elizondo, who ran AATIP or was one of the members on AATIP, he confessed under oath that there is a crash retrieval program.
So they have been going around and scooping these things up. Yes. So what do you say to people who are like, it's just super advanced military technology they're hiding from everybody?
Well, if that's the case, that would be an even bigger story because somebody has kept it secret for over 80 years. Wow, okay, that's cool. Yeah, no, I hear you. These things exhibit a technology that's just so beyond anything that we have in our arsenal. And what are the examples of the technology that we can't really wrap our heads around? So you have objects that can hover.
without displaying any kind of visible means of propulsion. They can accelerate from a standstill to out of sight in the blink of an eye. Right angle turns at high speeds. No sonic boom, no air disturbance. Very little noise. Sometimes you'll hear a slight buzzing or humming noise, but that's it, within certain proximity, some of the witnesses. And they fly rings around our fastest jets.
I mean, like, they make a mockery of our fastest jets. I mean, you could just talk to David Fravor about that, 2003 off the coast of San Diego. So... And I think the big secret is they don't know what it is. I mean, they know it's engineered, right? They know it's technological, but there's a psychic component to it as well.
So it would be very difficult for any governing body to come forward and say, Hey, ladies and gentlemen, my fellow Americans, it has been brought to our attention that there are structured craft of unknown origin whizzing around with impunity.
They fly rings around our fastest jets, so we don't know who they are, where they come from, and if they turn out to be hostile, we have no visible means of defense against them. Thank you and good night. Yeah, true. Everyone would be like, fuck this. Everyone would be like, no!
That's why right now, when they don't know what these drones are, they're calling them drones because drones are a little less scary than UAP, right? So they're calling them drones, but they're saying, you have nothing to fear, and yet we don't know what the hell they are. So that's a little strange because how could you say what something isn't when you don't know what it is? Yeah, true.
Isn't it funny how the people we love most are often the hardest to shop for? Luckily, there's one gift that everyone on your list is sure to enjoy, an Aura digital picture frame. Named number one by Wirecutter, Aura Frames make it incredibly easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame.
And when you give an Aura Frame as a gift, you can personalize and preload it with a thoughtful message and photos using the Aura app, making it an ideal present for long-distance loved ones. It's a gift so special, they'll use it every day. I mean, they want me to talk about the hunt for the perfect gift. Yeah, man, it is hard getting the perfect gift.
And there's nothing better and selfless than just, you know, giving a photo of yourself to a person. No, you're giving a photo. I'm joking around. It's the holidays. Everyone's having a tough time. Please don't drop us, dude. Our corporate sponsors are mad right now. Guys. Guys, it is nice. Your mother would love your mother loves you so much and your father. They just want to see your face.
Just give him a picture of you and your brothers, dude. Back when you were young and beautiful before you became old and decrepit. Yeah. So, you know, look, I love it. My mom has one. She loves seeing it. Hey, Bill, I'm recording advertisements, dude. I know you broke your leg, but please. Yeah, so very good.
Hey, guys, and if that's not personal enough, you can even upload a video message to play on the frame as soon as they plug it in. So the first thing they hear is your voice and how much you love them. Save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carvermat frames by using promo code MSSP at checkout. That's A-U-R-A, frames.com, promo code MSSP.
This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. How do you stay cozy during the winter months? For some, wrapping up in a blanket with a mug of hot chocolate or watching a movie with the family is the best way to spend the month of December.
Therapy is a great way to bring yourself some comfort that never goes away even when the season changes. I mean, what a beautiful message. Because your family will go away, but you can always do therapy. That is beautiful. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online.
Designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule, just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched up with a licensed therapist and switch therapist anytime for no additional charge. Find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash MSSP today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash MSSP. And, guys, it is the holiday times.
A lot of people get sad and freak out. You know, maybe you're an advertiser and you're saying, this ad shouldn't have been a fucking minute long. So maybe I'm just wasting time and trying to get to a minute. But, guys, it is the holidays. People get sad. I get cheerful. I get full of holiday cheer. I love it. So I'm not sad during the holidays. I like the holidays. But some of you get very sad.
So do what you need to do in terms of finding your supports. All right. You know what we all could use a little more of? Getting off asses. I have no problem with that sentence.
With bold flavors and a crisp, refreshing kick, Mountain Dew gives you that extra push to get moving and feel like you're on top of the world, a world where the sun is always shining, your crews ready for action, and unforgettable adventures are just around the corner. Call out your favorite flavor. I mean, obviously, guys, I'm classic. I'm keeping it cool on this one.
My corporate partners were a little upset. So, look, I just want to keep it all business right now. This is a Mountain Dew. Check that out. Some of the verbiage is great tasting, refreshing, and has a citrus kick, which is very nice. Talk about what game slash activity you'd play with friends. Honestly, I like to talk about that.
I thought I was being pretty open and candid, you know, with my branding partners, talking about what I was doing with my friends. But I don't know if they like my candidness or my candid nature. So I'm just going to say, me and my friends, we drink Mountain Dew. We hype each other up. We watch the game. We watch the game with each other. And then our wives come over and...
I'm not going to talk about wife swapping or anything like that with our corporate partners, but we just have a good time, dude. Whatever, man. Just fucking do you, bro. The mountain is calling. You should answer. Grab your friends. Grab an ice cold Mountain Dew wherever refreshing beverages are sold and do the do.
Yeah, it's also, yeah, it is deeply unsettling to be like, because, you know, human beings just have this idea. We're kind of like top dog in the universe. Yeah, it does threaten. It does threaten. I mean, I feel kind of weird. Like, what do you think the I have two questions. What's the telepathic element you're talking about?
I'll give you an example. And there's examples like this that go on for decades. So David Fravor, the encounter that took place, it's now commonly referred to as the Nimitz case. It was off the coast of San Diego in 2003. And he chased this tic-tac-looking object.
and it had no wings, no propulsion, it could hover, it was hovering right over the ocean, he could see it down below, there was two military jets that saw it, four people that got visual, and that picked up on the radar, and they chased after it, and as they were close, so the plane, the object was down just above the ocean surface, and it was darting around kind of like this,
And Fravor said he was going to get a closer look at it at whatever altitude he was. So he started spiraling down to get a closer look at it. And the tic-tac object starts spiraling up. So it was mimicking his movement but backwards. So he's spiraling down. It's spiraling up. And then he decides to kind of do a maneuver and intercept it, like cut it off. He gets right at it.
He goes, this is about a quarter of a mile. And he goes, that sounds kind of far away or half a mile, whatever it is. But in flight, it's, it's very close. Yeah. No rivets, no seams. Like what is this thing? And then he said, it took off. Like you just impossible like this. It performed, it did something that's just not even possible.
And then it ended up at their, it's a strategic Latin launch that's like predetermined before. I'm trying to think of the technical name they use for that. But in any case, it just showed up right at that exact tactical spot at their Latin launch.
It's like, and he said he had like the hair on the back of his neck stand up straight because that was like it basically like I'm five steps ahead of you guys.
Yeah.
I even know where your Latin launch is. Nice, man. Yeah. So and again, there's I could give you example after example. For sure. Yeah. No, that makes sense. That's pretty crazy. Yeah.
So what do you think are like the implications on like day to day kind of like human thinking and affairs? Say it's just like it's out.
proven without you know uh any sort of doubt or whatever it's proven that there there is like a life forms that just dwarf our kind of technology and understanding of the universe what do you think that does to human beings i think that's a good or you think they'll like spin people out or maybe maybe make us be a little nicer knowing we have like other yeah yeah yeah yeah i think i always felt that it would be a little scary right
But that's OK. I mean, you know, reality is reality. It's been going on for a long time. It doesn't seem to be here to hurt us because others might argue with me on that point. But for the most part, seems to be a fairly benign. I mean, there are other aspects of the phenomenon that one might argue is a little scary, but whatever. That's a whole nother.
I would argue... Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
I would argue if they're that advanced, there's a huge chance they're not kind of like predacious and like... You know what I mean? Because it'd be hard to be that advanced while you're still dealing with kind of like those more animal aggressive kind of instincts.
Yeah.
You think you would implode like human beings. If we don't kind of get our kind of aggressive instincts under control, we might exactly... We might like blow ourselves up.
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it's really funny actually. To your point... I interviewed this guy, Robert Salas, who was a launch control officer during the height of the Cold War. And I think he was in charge of Minuteman missiles, but they were nuclear arms.
And I'm not sure if it was Minot or anyways, one of these bases housing nuclear weapons and objects were seen over the base, documented over the base. And then all of their vast majority of nuclear weapons went into a no-go situation. They were just shut off and they're all independently controlled. I report about it in my film, The Phenomenon. And I talked to Salas about this and it was funny.
I could see why he was a launch control officer because he's got this demeanor where he's just like super mellow and calm and just measured and just doesn't, you know, he's like, well, James, the message I got from that is almost like taking matches out of the hands of a baby. Maybe you shouldn't be playing with these things. Yeah, and I was like, wow, never thought of it that way.
I never heard of that, so they all just deactivated. Yeah, oh, there's 50 cases in my film, The Phenomenon. I literally did a deep dive in there with the help of this guy, Robert Asins, who wrote the book on it. And yeah, you'll hear officer after officer after officer about incursions over military bases. They seem to be like some people would put it like a moth to a flame.
Like anytime there's nukes around, the phenomenon kind of just comes around to check it out. Wow. Damn, that's crazy. Yeah, Senator Harry Reid, former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, gave me an interview. I think it was like 2019. Yeah. And he was the one that started this, one of the key people that started this UFO investigation, ATIP, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program.
Before that, it was OSAP. But in any case, I asked him. It went on for 10 years. It was never meant to go public. But again, people had protested from the inside from excessive secrecy and walked some evidence out of the Pentagon onto the front page of the New York Times. And it went on for 10 years. It was found out in like 27 at the end of 2017.
It started around 20, sorry, 2008, 2007, something like that. And I said, what was some of the more astonishing aspects of the phenomenon that you learned during that 10 year Pentagon investigation? And he goes right away, just like that. He goes, they're interested in our nukes. And I was like, Oh, Whoa. I'd heard about that a little bit.
So we did a whole segment on it within the phenomenon of, of yeah. Wow. That's pretty crazy. Yeah. And there are a lot of incursions going on, military bases all over the place still. So I don't know. I think it's a far more complex issue than one might, you know, gather. Yeah, true. It doesn't have like one easy explanation. I've been doing this 30 years and I don't know what the hell's going on.
Yeah, it's one of those things that does that. I wish I did. It kind of dwarfs the perceived power of governments where you're like, you know, the United States, we have all these missiles or the cutting edge of technology. Then you see something that's so much more advanced if it's really buzzing around. Kind of like it makes the government less authoritative almost.
You're kind of like, all right, dude.
I thought it would have a unifying effect on all of humanity, quite honestly. I mean, if there's an outside force. I mean, Reagan had talked about it, but he used it more of a threat. But if you have something that's – I think it would unify us. Yeah. Excuse me. I remember interviewing Apollo astronaut Edgar Mitchell. And he was Apollo 14, sixth man to walk on the moon.
And he said on the way to the moon, he was so caught up in all the data, and he might as well have been a simulator. But coming back... He got to kind of really just look at the earth and look at what he, and really feel what he was doing. He was hurling through this little tin can through the vastness of space and darkness. And he goes, you don't know dark until you've been into space.
Like it's just, it's a vacuum out there. And he goes, I looked at earth and I watched it slowly getting bigger and bigger and all those invisible lines. I didn't see any territories. And I was imagining all the wars that were taking place and all this. And he really felt, not just saw, but felt like humankind as one race, one people kind of thing.
And I think that this reality will help accelerate that, in my opinion.
I think it's a good thing. We get a lot of people who start being like, they're trying to use this to start up a new world government and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like,
I don't think they have control of it. I really don't.
Yeah, I would argue that.
Someone who's investigated all around the world for 30 years. There's no way. I don't think that we're... No, I think that they're doing what they're doing.
True. And it's one of those things where it's like if they're... Just say, for argument's sake, say there were some just human beings who were so powerful they were engineering these kind of crafts. It's like, well, guess what? They're going to do whatever they want. You know, whatever. Yeah. But yeah, I think it's awesome, man. I think it's pretty cool. And I think it is a... I don't know.
I think it's good for people to have kind of shocks to their system. And I think the UAP kind of like reality of their life forms does a good shock to the system in a way.
I mean, if you look at the program, you'll see... refreshingly, you'll see a bipartisan effort. You'll see Democrats and Republicans working together, being civil, and like really trying to get to the bottom of it. And I love that.
Yeah.
About that. It's uniting Congress and our elected officials, no question about it. You're looking at AOC with Tim Burchett being really kind to each other and calling each other colleagues. And it's very, yeah, I love that. I think we need more of it.
Yeah. Yeah. Because you can get so into your like hometown versus the country. You know, you're like ants on a hill. You're like, this is this huge place. Then you get a cosmic perspective and you're like, right.
Fucking. Yeah. Right. Nothing. They should send all politicians into space. They should be awesome. Or just give them a ton of LSD.
There you go. Either or. Sure.
Is it possible that this is, and it's us, but an ancient civilization, like if Elon Musk or Bill Gates, if something happened now, they would just go into their bunkers and they have huge bunkers and their civilization would grow for thousands of years. Everybody else on top, we decelerate and we become back to cavemen. And now 12,000 years later, they're finally coming to the surface again.
But it's us, just a more advanced civilization that was able to keep going.
I've heard that theory. And one of the things that I'm coming to terms with is that all options are on the table as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I've heard interdimensional. I've heard future, coming back from the future. I've heard interplanetary. I've heard they're right here all along, down in our oceans and in specific locations around the world. And I can't say no to any of them.
I have to keep all options on the table. And at one point, jokingly, I said, I'm a huge universe. I said, you know, maybe it's all of the above. Maybe it's not just one race. Maybe it's a number of different things. It's one of the reasons why I showed some incredible Hubble telescope photography from space and galaxies. And one photograph in particular from NASA is...
They look like almost stars, there's so many of them, but then you realize they're not stars. You're looking at galaxies, and each one of those galaxies has like 400 billion stars, right? And you're looking at all these pinpoints of light, and those are all galaxies, and you're thinking, you've got to be kidding me. That's just incomprehensibly big, right?
It's like, and we're just like, there's more stars... There's 10,000 times more stars than there are grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. It's like 10,000 times. So you can't even wrap your head around it. And it's getting bigger by the day. And now they're talking about multiverses and stuff. It's like God only knows, man. Sometimes it's like my mind hurts thinking about it.
I don't know, man. Sometimes when I think about the vastness and how it keeps going on, and if it's not infinite... Then where does it stop?
This is the thing that fucks me up. It has to be infinite because if it were to stop, it could only stop by a sort of border. There'd have to be something on the other edge of the border, so it has to be, by definition, infinite.
It's so insane.
The universe really is ruled by dream logic. That's the only place a thing can be infinite and non-infinite is in a dream. Don't get me started, dude.
I was freaking out at the Uber last night.
It blows my mind, seriously. I'm just like...
but you know what i'm talking about though it has to be infinite because if it were finite there'd be a bordering edge and there'd have to be some physical thing on you can't have something that borders that doesn't have another side of it so it can't be bored it has to be infinite otherwise i remember one time thinking to myself like i have no idea why i'm here what the hell's going on i do that i don't think we're here to hate each other yeah that does that's one thing i feel like you know come on
Yeah. It doesn't feel good in your body. That's what I've been doing. It's like people say like, you know, oh, you know, this is this is crazy. It's all airy fairy talk. It's like, well, dude, if you like just assume where these kind of like struggling animals with nothing other than animal instincts and our whole sense of consciousness is like, you know, just wafting off these.
It's just like this nonsense that's wafting off our instincts. It's like to take that worldview hurt. It literally hurts your body.
Yeah.
So it's like, yeah, I agree with you. But I think if you kind of open yourself up to like the kind of cosmic scale, becoming basically a cosmic patriot rather than your country or what, you know, people will be mad at me for that. But you can like your country, but also be like, I'm also a citizen of the universe.
Absolutely.
Open yourself up to that scale.
Feels good. I remember asking Edgar Mitchell, it was really funny because we're in the middle of talking about UFOs and he like, Kind of grew up in Roswell, excuse me, the surrounding areas. And so he knew all the ranchers from back in the late 40s, early 50s, actually even earlier than that.
And I was like, God, I'm so sorry to ask this question of you because I'm sure you get asked this all the time. What was it like to go to the moon? And he's like, well, James, if you'd like, I'll tell you. And so I got such a detailed description of what it was like right down to when they landed on the lunar surface. They were hearing these macro meteorite
meteorites pelting the skin of their craft and they've been up basically for three days and nasa's like you guys need to go to sleep and they were like oh no man i want to which they tried to go to sleep and then they were too excited they were like told nasa we're we're overriding your recommendations we're gonna we're putting our suits on we're going
Wait, so they were up for three days straight and they were just like... Yeah, and they couldn't sleep.
They were on the lunar surface and he said, they put their suits on and they went out there and he's walking around the lunar surface and he says he sees off in the distance this blue marble. I love sharing this story because it's so crazy. This blue marble suddenly rise. It was an earth rise from the moon.
And he said, there it was, this oasis of life and suspended in the darkness of space, the vacuum of space, such a hostile environment around it, right?
and there it rose and he had these big gloves on and he put up one hand and he blocked out the entire earth right from the lunar surface uh-huh he's like all that i know all that i've learned all the borders all the people and i'm blocking it out with one hand damn yeah isn't that cool wait so the earth rises when you're on the moon yeah it was earth rise yeah earth rise yeah that's so crazy that's so cool
Yeah, and it was like a blue marble. Like you said, suspended in a vastness. He goes, you don't understand the vacuum of space until you've been there. Like, it's dark, it's hostile, and there's this oasis, this life oasis.
Yeah, it's really... It does suck, and it sucks to waste it just being this fucking miserable dick.
It's all we got.
I know. And I'm, I'm, I'm guilty of that. I can be a miserable dickhead, but it's like, it really is. Especially when you look at it, it's like, if you look at the scale and then you get into like the, the math behind, like, what are the, if they go guard, it all happened by chance. Well, what is like the mathematical probability of that?
And it's, it's, it's like literally if you were a math person, you beg, well, yeah, my own math proves that this happening for no reason is so statistically improbable. It's crazy. Yeah. And they go, well, it's because the universe is infinite and that anything can happen. It's like, okay.
All right. Yeah. That's cool. You know, I wonder sometimes if we just like, I used to think back when I first started this, cause I was like, I would go into the field. I wouldn't just read books or go to conferences. I would actually go to locations and meet with witnesses on UFO sightings all over the place. And so I knew the phenomenon was real.
I mean, unless everybody I was talking to, including pilots and FAA officials and some civilians and governors all line, I was like, well, maybe, you know, it's such a big universe, you know, the galaxy, whatever, Milky Way. We probably just get periodic visitation for whatever reason. The governments decide to cover it up. That's what I thought.
But now, all these years later, I'm like, oh, my gosh. Now I feel like I know less today than I did when I started. Yeah. Because like you said, like, could it be time travelers? Yes, it could. Could it be interdimensional? Yes, it could. Could it be interplanetary? Sure could. Why not? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, well, Tucker Carlson now is like... He's freaked out. And he's like big on the interdimensional thing.
I'm done.
Yeah, he's like out of nowhere. He tapped out. He got off a fox, and he was just next thing you know, it was just like there's interdimensional entities, blah, blah, blah. And everyone's like, what the fuck, dude? Yeah, no, he tapped out. What do you mean he tapped out?
He's not doing the UAP anymore. He just doesn't even want to talk about it. He learned certain things and he's like, we're done. I'm not doing this. And it's funny, actually, because one of the things that Senator Harry Reid said to me was that they were just trying to get some of these senators to look at the data, look at the evidence. And they were so dismissive of they said it's demonic.
And I'm not going to engage with that. So because he couldn't explain it or for whatever reason, it was just written off. So there's that wing of the elected officials that have looked at it that way. I don't know if they're still looking at it that way, but they were like, it's demonic and we don't want anything to do with it. I'm not even going to look at it. Damn. That's what he told me. Yeah.
And even people within the Pentagon saying that.
Yeah. I mean, it makes sense if you're if especially if you're like, you know, an older man and typically politicians. And I would say even more so like military people.
A lot of them are sort of kind of like a rigid kind of like, you know, insulated and like not like they're not saying like they're egoic, but it is like they have a very kind of top down way of thinking and like stuff like this is like there's no time for it.
You know, one of the people in the part of the UAP task force, I'm not sure what year he was involved, but his name is Len Val Logan. Great guy. And he goes, you know, it's crazy. He goes, we pick up a Russian make or something on the radar and it's all hands on deck. And yet when it doesn't have any markings on it, we can't identify it. It's like nothing to see here, folks.
It's like, it's like, he's like, well, how could that be? What? Like. Like, if it had a Russian flag or a Chinese flag, it would be all hands on deck. But because it doesn't have that, it's flying rings around, we can't stop it, control it, whatever. It's like, nothing to see here, folks. Yeah. Oh, that's kind of nuts. That's what he said, yeah.
There's got to be some sort of directive. Like I said, if you're military, there's rules for everything. So it'd be like, eh, we'll get that later on.
He's like, how can that be? I was like, it's a great quote. It's one of the quotes in the credit. I always like to, like when I'm editing a film, I'll get a lot of what are called GMs or golden moments. And I always paint those, I color those like a gold color. And then I put them, if I can't find a place for them in the movie, I tuck them aside and in my GM basket.
And then at the end of the film, I'll go, oh, God, can I squeeze these in somewhere? And if I can't squeeze them in, one time I was like, why don't I just sprinkle them throughout the credits? So now I always love doing that. What I'll do is I'll get my little GMs, and that moment with Len Val Logan, who's part of the UAP task force, is sprinkled in the credits at the end. That's awesome.
If you do watch the program, watch it all the way through to the end because there's lots of cool stuff sprinkled throughout the credits.
That's awesome, man.
Yeah, isn't that fun?
That is a good idea. Yeah. Damn, man. So we'll wrap this up. I think this has been awesome, by the way. Thank you. Oh, cool. Thanks. My question is, so say if somebody, you know, the biggest doubting Thomas or one of the, you know, if someone pretty close minded is like, I don't even want to think about this stuff. Do you have like one kind of like silver bullet you'd be like, check this out?
Or would you just?
I would have to say that. If you watch the program and you still think there's nothing to it, I think that's going to be nearly impossible.
I really do.
Just because of the bipartisan effort, the congressional hearings, people testifying under oath, some of the video photographic cases and radar. And look, you know, the DOD is, you know, begrudgingly admitting that the phenomenon's real. They're not lying anymore about that. Yeah, yeah. Right? I mean, they're trying to control how this stuff comes out, but it's happening. It's coming out, okay?
So one can speculate all day long as to where it's coming from and what its objective or agenda. That's up for speculation. But the phenomenon is real, and it defies a conventional explanation.
Awesome. Dude, thank you so much.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for doing this, man. Of course. Watch the program. Thank you, James. Of course. Later on.