My guest is Tom Segura, renowned comedian, writer, actor and director. We discuss the “how-to” of comedy writing and storytelling, and what the science of humor and the creative process reveal about human emotion and memory. We explore why surprise and the act of "saying the unspoken truth" activate the brain’s reward circuits, as well as the subconscious mechanisms that shape our sense of what is funny. The episode also examines the bi-directional influence between comedy and cultural standards. It will interest anyone curious about the science of humor, the art of performance and emotional contagion. Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Maui Nui: https://mauinuivenison.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman David Protein: https://davidprotein.com/huberman Function Health: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Tom Segura 00:01:45 Family, Sports, Running 00:09:35 Sponsors: Maui Nui & Helix Sleep 00:12:37 Ideas, Running, Sleep & Brain, Tools: Exercise for Energy; Phone Outside Room 00:20:16 Capturing Ideas, Cannabis, Storytelling, Experimentation 00:27:28 Ideas & Set List, Performance 00:31:52 Wife, Jokes, Reframing Content; Cancel Culture, Audience Reaction 00:40:56 Jokes, Self & Amusement; Evolution & New Material 00:48:26 Sponsors: AG1 & David Protein 00:51:24 Surprise, Hidden Thoughts; Acting 00:59:02 Voice Impersonation, Kids, Strength Training, Activities 01:05:40 Repeating Jokes; State Changes, Crowds & Energy 01:13:11 Silly Mindset; Audience, Emotional Contagion; Humor & Subconscious Mind 01:27:44 Sponsor: Function 01:29:32 Crowd Work, Comedy Clubs; Original Comedy 01:38:13 Comedy & Social Context; Dark Comedy 01:47:51 Drugs, Overdose, Comedian Deaths, Mental Health; Cynicism, Hope 01:54:21 Audience, Twin Comics; Vulnerability; Stand-Up & Performance 02:01:49 Comedy & Passion, Complaints; Childhood Struggle, Insecurities, Therapy 02:10:53 “Bad Thoughts” Show, Upcoming Projects 02:14:44 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What insights about comedy does Tom Segura share?
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Tom Segura. Tom Segura is a renowned comedian, writer and director.
During today's episode, we explore the neuroscience and psychology behind comedy and we explore the creative process more generally. Tom shares his approach to capturing and developing ideas into narratives that are once funny and thought provoking. We discuss the interplay between daily life observations and larger cultural dynamics when developing comedy routines.
We spend a fair bit of time discussing the neurobiological basis of humor and what data and brain lesion patients have taught us about why we find certain ideas novel, funny, or exciting. We also talk about how this relates to the activation reward circuits in the brain and the seemingly automatic way that things are either funny or not funny to people, suggesting that humor is like taste or smell.
You really can't negotiate what works for you or what doesn't. We also discuss emotional contagion and how skilled performers like Tom become masters at reading, shifting, and dancing with the collective energy of crowds, whether in small comedy clubs or large arena shows.
So if you're creative or you're curious about human psychology, or if you simply love to laugh, you'll come away from today's episode having learned a ton of useful information about the creative process and human nature. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Tom Segura. Tom Segura, welcome. Thanks for having me, cuz. We'll let...
people know who don't already know, yes, we are related. Yes, we are related. People have asked me so many times the details and I, you know, I was trying to like, because I learned about it obviously later that it was like, my mom's great-grandmother and your father's great-grandmother We're first cousins. They're both Basque, so northern Spain cousins.
And then, you know, generations later, they moved to South America, yours to Argentina, mine to Peru, and that's how we're cousins. Yeah. I guess distant cousins. And my dad was on the podcast a little while ago. How did that go? Because I remember we talked about him coming on.
It was great. I mean, he's a theoretical physicist by training. So we got to talk about physics, but we also got to talk about life. And I learned a lot from him. Did you? I learned a lot about him that I didn't know.
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Chapter 2: How does exercise influence creativity and mental health?
Yeah, but you can make a half court shot. I saw the clip of you in Lethal Shooter. We'll put a link to it. Okay. I mean, you're an excellent basketball player. I'm not. High level. Very high level.
Did you play ball growing up at all? No, foot sports.
Are you skateboarded? Foot sports. Soccer. I'm pretty coordinated with my feet.
Well, the kid of an Argentine, you got to give it a shot. Yeah. Every kid where I grew up played soccer. Really?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Obsessed. Were you good at soccer? I was all right. I played goalie. I like playing goalie or fullback. I like to wait back there and just stick people. That was fun. Maybe you should get into lacrosse or something. No, I like running. I ran cross country my senior year. You ran cross country? I did.
Yeah.
I was a little lighter than I am now. I'm like 210 now. It's probably 160, 170. Yeah.
okay yeah like two mile races were okay um i just did a 5k oh yeah two days ago yeah how'd that go i hated that i knew i had to do it and so i just made myself i was like you know you got to do it so it's gonna suck you trained for it well the training for me is like just get in a bunch of three mile runs right so i mean i would do them purposely at like
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Chapter 3: What is Tom Segura's process for capturing comedy ideas?
a slow pace like try to stay as close to zone two cardio as possible just to get like used to the mileage and then we get there because it was it was our 5k like it was I I put it on with Bert and Spartan Race and like it was a Bert did a 5k shirt off the whole thing of course what are you crazy weight vest weight belly I mean sorry bro dude yeah he was uh we give him a hard time because we're still trying to get Bert to quit drinking or reduce his drinking I think he's reduced his drinking a little bit no okay
So, yeah, we did one last year in Pasadena. We did the Rose Bowl. And so this time we did Raymond James in Tampa. It's the Two Bears 5K. We had more than three times people sign up this year for Tampa. So we had like close to 8,000 people there. Wow. And, you know, Jelly Roll came out, Jason Kelsey, Tristan Wirfs, like a bunch of, you know, John Feliciano, like all these football players. Fun.
And it was a very fun day, a very fun event. But here's the thing. Like at the Rose Bowl, the path was like basically through the parking lot and then on these side roads in Pasadena. And, you know, they loop it out and then you cross back basically across this parking lot and you hit the 3.1 sign. At Raymond James, I didn't know. They were like, oh, there's some inclines.
I'm like, yeah, all right. Did we get there? It's all in the stadium. And the only way you're running 3.1 miles in a stadium is we're running through the corridors and then up the ramp. Well, the ramp is nine stories up. I mean, you're literally— One long incline. Bro, so you're doing like a quarter mile up the— And then it would flatten out. Then you go down. You're like, oh, this is nice.
And then you go up again. So but I was just I think when you're also running with people, you kind of get tunnel vision. Yeah. And, you know, you see somebody you're like that person's ahead of me. Like this pig is in front of me right now. Are you competitive by nature? Yeah, I think so. And so like I would, you know, like I definitely was like I have to beat Bert.
i have to be you have to be john my friend feliciano i was like i have to beat these guys they're both like you know 300 pounds i'm definitely beating them and so that was just like in my head every time i would see like think of them i was like you just have to keep going Um, and then Bert got beat by a guy in a wheelchair. So that was also kind of sweet because I beat both of them.
Um, Jerry, what's up? Shout out to Jerry. Um, I think he had a little advantage cause those wheels on the way down definitely pick up some speed, but on the way up, it's pretty, pretty bad-ass, you know? Uh, but, but yeah, so like getting in those miles, like was, was the, just like the training for it. And, um, It was, it was a whole thing. And I don't like running.
Like it's not, you know, there's some things you like, if you were like, let's go work out, let's go live. I'd be like, cool. I enjoy that. I don't enjoy running, but I guess that's the best.
You like running? I love working out with weights. I've been doing that since I was 16, but I love running. You love running? Running three times a week, a long run, a medium run and a short run. What's a long run? An hour, hour and a half.
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Chapter 4: How does Tom Segura adapt his material for different audiences?
I will say that like as much as I say I hate running, the fact that I made myself keep doing – I was doing like daily runs almost, like five days a week just of like getting used to the mileage. You know, obviously it becomes easier and then you kind of go like, okay, I can do this. But yeah, I think I get a lot of like mental anxiety about the running.
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Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. When we aren't doing that on a consistent basis, everything suffers.
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Chapter 5: What role does emotional contagion play in comedy?
And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, our physical health, and our performance in all endeavors improves markedly. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night.
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Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night? Things of that sort. Maybe you know the answers to those questions. Maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K. I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
So if you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com slash Huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for your unique sleep needs. Right now, Helix is giving a special offer to Huberman podcast listeners of up to 27% off site-wide, plus free bed sheets with any Lux or Elite mattress order. What about the running itself?
I was going to ask you whether or not it changes your mental frame so that you – I don't know. Do you get ideas while you run? Do you get ideas after you run more readily or are you just cursing the thing the whole time?
I feel like it's a goal to let my mind drift because sometimes the negative side of it is like you're doing a run and your mind is like this sucks, right? You're thinking about how much time is left and that doesn't produce anything and it's not –
an enjoyable thing but like if the mind goes if you can let your mind drift um it's less about ideas i feel like in those moments you're you're kind of just you're off thinking about more like life not like create creative thoughts more like you know people and relationships and different and like that's kind of a nice place to be because then all of a sudden you're like oh you know
couple miles just went by yeah there's something to be said for these states of wordlessness where you're not constructing things in complete sentences there's no sensory input like through a phone or through even i do listen to podcasts or books when i run sometimes in the long run but there's this idea that uh a lot of learning and creativity is about purging all the noise and i find that those long runs they just kind of i come out of them just feeling like a bunch of
clutter just got cleared yeah more than i had some like insight during the run itself yeah incidentally 90 of the effect of exercise on improving brain function when it comes to long slow distance work is that it raises your level of alertness and arousal so you can do really great work afterwards yeah high intensity stuff has a bunch of other effects brain derived nootrophic factor etc but when you see like exercise improves brain function
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Chapter 6: How does Tom Segura address cancel culture in his comedy?
for something like six hours by changing the neurochemical state of your body and your brain. And so it's not a surprise that when you work out before a long day, that long day goes better. Whereas if you hit the work of the day kind of fresh, you're generating the adrenaline drink from all that stuff.
This is when people feel a bit more anxious, they feel a bit more irritable, they feel a bit more tired. So this whole concept of exercise gives you energy, that's how it gives you energy. It's not caloric energy. You still need to fuel, et cetera. You're talking about neurochemical energy. It fundamentally changes the way you show up to everything else.
The way that I always feel like is, you know, a lot of times when you wake up, you have what I would describe as like a fog. Oh, good. It's not just me. So like that fog. Sometimes, you know, you can you carry it like it just it's in the day and you're just kind of like, oh, there's this. But I always feel like that that exercise just completely wipes it out.
You know, where you're like, oh, like I'm actually alert now and I don't feel that post wake up just fog that sits there. That's my favorite thing that to knock out.
I love that. I've got this crazy thing that I do now. You can try this. I bought a 70-pound kettlebell. It's about a third of my body weight. And I have it set in the hallway. So when I get up, because I wake up really groggy, really foggy, I grab that thing and I suitcase carry it to the end and back twice. And then I switch hands and I suitcase carry it back to the end and back twice.
Just trying to, like, teach my body that it can do work right away. And I'm careful how I do it. But I find that now I wake up and I've got, like, I think my body's anticipating that. carry. And so I'm more alert from go. And I was like, ah, this is, there's something because your nervous system learns to anticipate things, right?
Because that phenomenon is setting your, um, your alarm clock for 7am. You wake up at six 59. What happened? Like your brain is clocking things in your sleep.
So many times. And I always feel like that's such a bizarre, like also for like, I'm not a big napper. Sometimes I'll be like, I'm going to lay down. Like I have a hour window before I have to go do something in a hotel. Like I'm on the road. And I'll be like, well, just in case I fall asleep, I'll set the alarm. And I'll lay there, eyes closed, and I'll look as it's one minute before.
Your brain's clocking it.
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Chapter 7: What makes surprise an essential element of humor?
If you ask them to do simple math problems during rapid eye movement sleep, you say, hey, what's two plus two? They'll blink with your – wink with your right eye if it's four, wink with your other eye if it's five. People can do math correctly in their sleep. They can answer not sophisticated questions, but the brain is tracking what's happening all around you.
This is why taking the phone and putting it outside the room while you sleep, people sleep better. People say, oh, it's because of the EMFs. Nobody really knows for sure, but it's because your brain is anticipating picking up the phone even while you're sleeping. Wow. So there's – I'm hitting with a lot of data here, but it's well-known now that if you give students a test –
and their phone is in their bag in the room, they perform less well than if their phone is in their bag in another room. This is true for adults too. Your brain is tracking sort of potential movements, potential thoughts, potential actions. Like the way brain circuits work is to create sort of dominoes of circuit sequences.
So when you're up, for instance, you've gone on stage so many times to do comedy. As you walk out, your brain is queuing up a whole library of things related to that without you realizing it. It's all context-dependent behavior. And when you get home, it's a different set of context-dependent behavior. So your brain is sort of like a magic library.
I always think of this like as you get to a particular idea or thought or emotional state, the books change right in front of you to kind of match the set of things that you expect. So if your phone is in the room, your brain is operating that way even if you're asleep. That's –
insane yeah what's your writing process let's talk about comedy that's um i've been i've got about a gazillion questions i'm going to try and make them really succinct what what is your typical process of capturing um you call them bits right yeah for stand-up it's a bit yeah what's your typical process of capturing ideas like do you do you voice memo into the phone do you write things down i've done pretty much every every version of it uh voice notes um
Well, hi. Sometimes you listen to them later and you're like, holy shit. Are you a cannabis user? I mean, sometimes. I'm not like a heavy user. But a lot of times at night, if you take something and you go to sleep, you're trying to go to sleep, your brain's like, nah, I got ideas. Is that right? Oh, yeah. I haven't done cannabis since a long time ago. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then sometimes you listen because you're convinced. You're like, this is one of the most brilliant ideas. Have you ever had great ideas that stick? Yeah, I've had good ones that stick.
Sometimes the wording's a little off, but yeah, I've had ones that I actually do enjoy afterwards, and then sometimes you're like, this is, you can hear yourself smiling, like, you know, because you can tell someone's emotion by their voice, so I can hear that I'm like, dude, that, like. Oh, because you're recording into that voice of emotion.
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Chapter 8: How do Tom's kids influence his comedy?
So it would be like, oh, like, I'm thinking about Norman, right? I won't try and do one of his jokes, but I like Norman's comedy skateboarder, too. Same non-biological first family. So he... I've heard him do things like, so my wife and I were on vacation recently, this kind of thing. Like a setup where it's very clear. I mean, he clearly knows where he's going with this. Yeah.
We're on vacation and we're picking out rooms and then at some point there's a punchline pivot.
Right.
Okay.
So there's like some of those are – especially when you feel like they're quite short, if it's like over quickly, that's going to – a lot of times be something that you knew, I'm going to say it exactly like this. It's like the most traditional form of a joke. Here's the setup, here's the punchline.
And, like, I've written jokes like that in stand-up, but I do a lot more, you know, long form, I think, like storytelling stuff. And so, you know, to write that all out, I feel like you almost... You almost get in your own way because you're just like... Because then what happens is what you write and what you say, it's never quite the same.
So you kind of go through what you think is funny about what happened. And then you take that on stage. And then... you take that on stage and maybe in a room with like 80 or a hundred people. And then, you know, that's the nice thing about standup is you learn right away if that shit is funny or not.
Like people are laughing hard and you're like, and that's what's such a rush because you go, this was an idea, this thing happened, you try it, it works. It's like, it's a really euphoric feeling. And then if it doesn't, you know, that's when like kind of the, um, I guess like the real work of it comes in.
Because then you're trying to figure out, you're like, especially if you're like married to the idea, if you're like, this is funny, but it didn't work. So then you start thinking about, is there not enough information for it to work? Is that the problem? Is there too much? Because we always say like trim the fat.
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