In this episode, my guest is Josh Waitzkin, former child chess prodigy and the subject of the movie and true story Searching for Bobby Fischer. Josh is also a world champion martial arts competitor and the author of the book The Art of Learning. We discuss Josh’s childhood as a chess prodigy and how he learned to train and compete at the highest levels by facing his fears and overcoming points of weakness. He explains the principles that unify disparate physical and mental pursuits and how understanding the interconnectedness of the learning process enables ultra-high-level performance across disciplines. We explore how to structure one’s day to tap into the most creative, generative, and unique capabilities. Josh shares his approach to learning, including how to address flaws and mistakes and how to harness the subtle and overt energies of the learning and peak performance process. He also discusses how he structures his life and makes decisions related to career and family. This episode is sure to inspire deep thinking and practical life changes for all who listen. Read the full episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Wealthfront**: https://wealthfront.com/huberman Our Place: https://fromourplace.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman **This experience may not be representative of the experience of other clients of Wealthfront, and there is no guarantee that all clients will have similar experiences. Cash Account is offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC, Member FINRA/SIPC. The Annual Percentage Yield (“APY”) on cash deposits as of December 27, 2024, is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum. Funds in the Cash Account are swept to partner banks where they earn the variable APY. Promo terms and FDIC coverage conditions apply. Same-day withdrawal or instant payment transfers may be limited by destination institutions, daily transaction caps, and by participating entities such as Wells Fargo, the RTP® Network, and FedNow® Service. New Cash Account deposits are subject to a 2-4 day holding period before becoming available for transfer. Timestamps 00:00:00 Josh Waitzkin 00:03:21 Chess, Competition & Performance 00:10:50 Martial Arts, Tai Chi, Jiu-Jitsu, Foiling, Training Others 00:14:41 Sponsors: Wealthfront & Our Place 00:17:43 Theory of Mind, Chess, Strategy & Mindset 00:26:39 Early Chess Training 00:32:30 Failure & Change, Chess, Tension, Power of Empty Space 00:43:22 Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv 00:48:06 Grief, Competition Loss, Growth, Frustration Tolerance 00:57:22 Arousal, Frame Rates, Intense Moments 01:06:17 Frame Rates & Pupil Size; Firewalking, Training 01:13:12 Sponsor: Function 01:15:58 Stress & Recovery, Tools: Doing Less, Most Important Question (MIQ) 01:23:24 Tool: Still Body, Active Mind; Shame, Strengthening Weaknesses 01:32:02 Child Prodigies, Brittle; Chess Principles & Transfer to Life 01:43:22 Sponsor: Eight Sleep 01:44:48 Preconscious vs Postconscious 01:52:02 Hypoxic Breathwork Caution & Drowning; Foiling, Fear, Postconscious 01:57:05 Static vs Dynamic Mindset, High Performers 02:05:48 Comebacks, Hunting Adversity, Living on Other Side of Pain, Tool: Cold Plunge 02:19:20 Ego, Identity, Unbreakable Will 02:29:18 Studying People; Chess, Computers; Science & AI; Ocean & Control 02:40:37 Time, Future Direction, True to Self, Wounds 02:51:07 Daily Routine, Individualization, Waking Up, Tool: MIQ Gap Analysis 03:00:21 Tool: MIQ; Stuck Points, Distraction 03:05:58 Reflective vs Stimulus-Response, Optimize Quality not Quantity 03:14:12 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Social Media, Protocols Book, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures
Full Episode
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Josh Waitzkin. Josh Waitzkin is a former child prodigy who began playing the game of chess at six years old. And by the time he was 16 years old,
had become a national champion many times over as well as an international champion in fact he achieved the level of international master which is one of the highest levels of achievement in the game of chess for anyone of any age his early life achievements were the topic and focus of the book and movie searching for bobby fisher he then quit playing the game of chess and moved on to martial arts the study of philosophy at columbia university new york
and eventually foiling, which is essentially surfing over the water. Josh is not only a high performer, he has now become perhaps the most sought after professional coach in the domains of finance, in the domains of creative endeavors, professional sports, and military. Today's episode is one of my favorite Huberman Lab podcast episodes ever.
I know as a podcast host, you're not supposed to say that, but it's absolutely true. because not only is Josh Waitzkin so highly accomplished, but he is an exceptional teacher of the learning process. He took what he learned in chess and about learning chess and applied that to martial arts, to foiling, et cetera.
And from participating in all those endeavors, he was able to distill out the essential elements of learning and how to tailor one's learning process to one's own unique personality and style, flaws and tendency to make mistakes, and how to leverage all of that in order to be able to learn better.
In fact, throughout today's episode, I promise that you will constantly be reflecting on where you experience things like tension and fear, both in your personal life, your professional life, your educational life, whatever it is that you're trying to learn and pursue in life. Today's conversation, thanks to Josh, will allow you to look at that, understand it better,
and know where to apply work, when to relax, when to push forward, and in effect, how to become a better learner, both of yourself and whatever it is that you happen to be pursuing in life. We have a saying in science, which is that sometimes you encounter somebody who is truly N of one, meaning a sample size of one in a category all by themselves. Josh Waitzkin is truly an N of one.
I know of no other person like him or even close to him in terms of his ability to live a unique life path and to take what he learns and to put it out into the world so that others may benefit. He lives with a tremendous amount of intentionality for the people he loves, for the things he loves, and with the intention of helping others learn how to learn better.
I must say it was a true honor to sit down with Josh. I've been a huge fan of his work for a very long time. you'll also learn that he's a really nice person. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
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