Josh Waitzkin

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's a beautiful soul. He's a real brother. He's a kindred spirit. Like every once in a while, you run into someone, you're like... In his book, Lion Tracker's Guide to Life, he has this gorgeous quote, which is the words of a master tracker, Reneas. I have no idea where I'm going, but I know exactly how to get there. When I read those words, I was just like, they resonated very deeply in my soul.

He's a beautiful soul. He's a real brother. He's a kindred spirit. Like every once in a while, you run into someone, you're like... In his book, Lion Tracker's Guide to Life, he has this gorgeous quote, which is the words of a master tracker, Reneas. I have no idea where I'm going, but I know exactly how to get there. When I read those words, I was just like, they resonated very deeply in my soul.

I think those words are really good. I would take out the exactly. I don't know anything exactly. So I don't know where I'm going, but I have a really beautiful sense that I'm tracking my way there.

I think those words are really good. I would take out the exactly. I don't know anything exactly. So I don't know where I'm going, but I have a really beautiful sense that I'm tracking my way there.

I have a big part of me, and it's a strength and a weakness. And I think a lot when I meet people, I think a lot about the entanglement of their brilliance and their eccentricity, or their genius and their dysfunction. And when you're working with peak performers, you need to understand it. And it's entanglement is often very, very complex.

I have a big part of me, and it's a strength and a weakness. And I think a lot when I meet people, I think a lot about the entanglement of their brilliance and their eccentricity, or their genius and their dysfunction. And when you're working with peak performers, you need to understand it. And it's entanglement is often very, very complex.

And people can think, oh, I can make this person more efficient by just removing this. But that will be connected to their genius. And you'll be like cutting some of it away, right? And so when you're working with like crazy, brilliant, and anyone who's really a virtuoso has some craziness built into what they're doing.

And people can think, oh, I can make this person more efficient by just removing this. But that will be connected to their genius. And you'll be like cutting some of it away, right? And so when you're working with like crazy, brilliant, and anyone who's really a virtuoso has some craziness built into what they're doing.

And the entanglement of their brilliance and their dysfunction is so complex and nuanced. And one should be very careful to not do anything until one understands that entanglement with huge nuance. And so the art of coaching people of that nature is like 99.9% listening, observing, not doing.

And the entanglement of their brilliance and their dysfunction is so complex and nuanced. And one should be very careful to not do anything until one understands that entanglement with huge nuance. And so the art of coaching people of that nature is like 99.9% listening, observing, not doing.

And one of the biggest mistakes that coaches make is doing, doing too much because they need to show that they're valuable, right? And so I think a lot about We need to really understand the nature of that entanglement. And in me, that entanglement's complex. And I have a profound allergy to being untrue to myself. Why?

And one of the biggest mistakes that coaches make is doing, doing too much because they need to show that they're valuable, right? And so I think a lot about We need to really understand the nature of that entanglement. And in me, that entanglement's complex. And I have a profound allergy to being untrue to myself. Why?

Well, I think a big part of the reason is that period when I was 15, 16, 17, 18 years old that I described where I got pulled into this externalized thing from the film and the public scrutiny when I wasn't ready for it. And being urged and not having the maturity to resist it, because that's ultimately on me, to take on chess outside of my self-expression. Like what would Karpov do here or not?

Well, I think a big part of the reason is that period when I was 15, 16, 17, 18 years old that I described where I got pulled into this externalized thing from the film and the public scrutiny when I wasn't ready for it. And being urged and not having the maturity to resist it, because that's ultimately on me, to take on chess outside of my self-expression. Like what would Karpov do here or not?

What would Josh do here? And I didn't have the understanding of learning Karpov through Kasparov, right? And so I moved into, like my first love was taken away from me or I allowed myself to have it taken away from me, which is how I'd actually frame it. And it was made static and stale and corrupted and externalized.

What would Josh do here? And I didn't have the understanding of learning Karpov through Kasparov, right? And so I moved into, like my first love was taken away from me or I allowed myself to have it taken away from me, which is how I'd actually frame it. And it was made static and stale and corrupted and externalized.

And there's so much existential heartbreak in me about the loss of that first love. That I have the gift of being just fucking allergic to being untrue to myself. And so that's part of how I track through life is if I don't love someone, I don't work with them, no matter what the temptation is. If something feels untrue to me, I don't do it.

And there's so much existential heartbreak in me about the loss of that first love. That I have the gift of being just fucking allergic to being untrue to myself. And so that's part of how I track through life is if I don't love someone, I don't work with them, no matter what the temptation is. If something feels untrue to me, I don't do it.

Now, sometimes we have to sit in the unknowing for a while and something can be off for a Right? It's like there's peaks and valleys of everything, right? And we're so in the learning process, right? We can have long plateaus.

Now, sometimes we have to sit in the unknowing for a while and something can be off for a Right? It's like there's peaks and valleys of everything, right? And we're so in the learning process, right? We can have long plateaus.

Like when I stopped playing chess, I felt like I'd lost the love, but I sat for two years with the question to be clear on whether I was in a plateau of the love or if I'd lost the love. And then I gained clarity. No, no, you've lost the love. And then I was done. Never played again. Never played a chess game again. So that factored in. Like I have this...

Like when I stopped playing chess, I felt like I'd lost the love, but I sat for two years with the question to be clear on whether I was in a plateau of the love or if I'd lost the love. And then I gained clarity. No, no, you've lost the love. And then I was done. Never played again. Never played a chess game again. So that factored in. Like I have this...

this it's so interesting how our like some of the like our our most powerful guiding principles or voices in us can come from our deepest wounds right they absolutely do i mean i think it's a because i think

this it's so interesting how our like some of the like our our most powerful guiding principles or voices in us can come from our deepest wounds right they absolutely do i mean i think it's a because i think

So they're like the diving birds. Those birds, yeah.

So they're like the diving birds. Those birds, yeah.

To calculate.

To calculate.

I'm going to do a study there. I want to learn about them.

I'm going to do a study there. I want to learn about them.

Well, how I relate to that personally, I've spent a lot of time thinking about day architecture. I call it, I call it day architecture. And, and yeah, And I think there's some very systematic things we can do. But I think like anything, they should be individualized, right? I don't think that everyone should follow a certain model because we're all very different.

Well, how I relate to that personally, I've spent a lot of time thinking about day architecture. I call it, I call it day architecture. And, and yeah, And I think there's some very systematic things we can do. But I think like anything, they should be individualized, right? I don't think that everyone should follow a certain model because we're all very different.

You know that old book that Tim actually produced, the audio book, Daily Rituals?

You know that old book that Tim actually produced, the audio book, Daily Rituals?

Like one of the best things about Daily Rituals is how few patterns there are through them. I love that book.

Like one of the best things about Daily Rituals is how few patterns there are through them. I love that book.

Well, he published the audio book of it, right? And I think I told Tim, he'll remind me, I think I might have, I think I told Tim about that book, like many, many years ago, and he did the audio book. And It's so good. It's so good. And it just follows the daily routine. It breaks down the daily routine.

Well, he published the audio book of it, right? And I think I told Tim, he'll remind me, I think I might have, I think I told Tim about that book, like many, many years ago, and he did the audio book. And It's so good. It's so good. And it just follows the daily routine. It breaks down the daily routine.

It's like two to three to four page chapters on like a hundred some brilliant artists and scientists and creators. And they're just so random how they live.

It's like two to three to four page chapters on like a hundred some brilliant artists and scientists and creators. And they're just so random how they live.

So I think we need to have like that awareness and that sense of humor and humility about it. And we can get systematic and structured at the same time. I think it's important to hold both of those. I mean, what you just asked, I do believe that that beautiful period when we first wake up. And that dream state is so powerful.

So I think we need to have like that awareness and that sense of humor and humility about it. And we can get systematic and structured at the same time. I think it's important to hold both of those. I mean, what you just asked, I do believe that that beautiful period when we first wake up. And that dream state is so powerful.

And I think that people, almost all people immediately pick up their phone and start checking messages, which just shuts down one's awareness of what's been happening beneath the surface all night. So I think that that's a real... lost opportunity. I remember when I was 11 years old, I read this, my dad actually gave me this Hemingway essay on his creative process.

And I think that people, almost all people immediately pick up their phone and start checking messages, which just shuts down one's awareness of what's been happening beneath the surface all night. So I think that that's a real... lost opportunity. I remember when I was 11 years old, I read this, my dad actually gave me this Hemingway essay on his creative process.

And there's one of my favorite, one of the most, sometimes there's like an insanely potent book that's put together. And it's two that come to mind are Lessons of History, which is this short compilation of Will and Ariel Durant, two of the greatest historians who've published tens of thousands of pages, This is a short compilation of a handful of thematic essays.

And there's one of my favorite, one of the most, sometimes there's like an insanely potent book that's put together. And it's two that come to mind are Lessons of History, which is this short compilation of Will and Ariel Durant, two of the greatest historians who've published tens of thousands of pages, This is a short compilation of a handful of thematic essays.

It's only like 100 pages of all their life's work boiled down to a few themes. It's unbelievably potent. And Hemingway on Writing is another book of that nature, which takes all of Hemingway's – from his books, from his letters, private letters, from his articles and essays and

It's only like 100 pages of all their life's work boiled down to a few themes. It's unbelievably potent. And Hemingway on Writing is another book of that nature, which takes all of Hemingway's – from his books, from his letters, private letters, from his articles and essays and

notebooks, like everything he's written about the creative process and boils it into this like short book on his principles of creativity. Just unbelievable. But before that book came out, I read this piece, this short thing he'd written about the creative process, which was essentially he'd always leave a sentence unwritten. He'd end his workday with a sentence like half written.

notebooks, like everything he's written about the creative process and boils it into this like short book on his principles of creativity. Just unbelievable. But before that book came out, I read this piece, this short thing he'd written about the creative process, which was essentially he'd always leave a sentence unwritten. He'd end his workday with a sentence like half written.

So leaving with a sense of direction. And then he would let it go. You know, he would go out drinking. He would do all the things that Hemingway did. And then he returned to it first thing in the morning. And that like unwritten sentence had become a paragraph and a page in his mind, and it would be a way to hit the ground running.

So leaving with a sense of direction. And then he would let it go. You know, he would go out drinking. He would do all the things that Hemingway did. And then he returned to it first thing in the morning. And that like unwritten sentence had become a paragraph and a page in his mind, and it would be a way to hit the ground running.

And that's what really spurred me to start creating this process in my chess life of always ending my chess study with something left, like posing my unconscious a question, like studying the complexity and then releasing it, which later became, and then tapping into it first thing in the morning, pre-input. which later became my MIQ process. And then I developed team-wide MIQ processes.

And that's what really spurred me to start creating this process in my chess life of always ending my chess study with something left, like posing my unconscious a question, like studying the complexity and then releasing it, which later became, and then tapping into it first thing in the morning, pre-input. which later became my MIQ process. And then I developed team-wide MIQ processes.

The teams that I work with all have versions of the MIQ that they utilize as individuals, but then as teams.

The teams that I work with all have versions of the MIQ that they utilize as individuals, but then as teams.

And it's an amazing way to develop a shared consciousness in a team, to have everybody be able to tap into the question that's top of mind for every member of their team, or for a leader to be able to be aware of what is the most important question for every one of my scientists or my analysts or anything. It's a really powerful way to cultivate shared consciousness, and it becomes our game tape.

And it's an amazing way to develop a shared consciousness in a team, to have everybody be able to tap into the question that's top of mind for every member of their team, or for a leader to be able to be aware of what is the most important question for every one of my scientists or my analysts or anything. It's a really powerful way to cultivate shared consciousness, and it becomes our game tape.

Because if we're tracking our MIQs, let's say I'm studying something for three weeks or for four weeks, and what do I think is most, if I'm tracking the questions that I think are most critical for that thing and I'm deepening my analysis of it, What I arrive at, what I think in day one will be very different from the MIQ in day 14. And then we can study the gap.

Because if we're tracking our MIQs, let's say I'm studying something for three weeks or for four weeks, and what do I think is most, if I'm tracking the questions that I think are most critical for that thing and I'm deepening my analysis of it, What I arrive at, what I think in day one will be very different from the MIQ in day 14. And then we can study the gap.

And then we can study the patterns of the gap, the gaps. And this is what I call MIQ gap analysis. So if I'm setting a chess position, like if I play a chess game against you and it's incredibly complex and I don't quite understand this position and then I do a deep, deep analysis of it, what I'll arrive at after 14 or 16 or 18 hours of study will be different from what I felt during the game.

And then we can study the patterns of the gap, the gaps. And this is what I call MIQ gap analysis. So if I'm setting a chess position, like if I play a chess game against you and it's incredibly complex and I don't quite understand this position and then I do a deep, deep analysis of it, what I'll arrive at after 14 or 16 or 18 hours of study will be different from what I felt during the game.

Now, what's interesting is, this is a cool thing about chess study. If my understanding was here during the chess game, after like a few hours, I might be like really far away from that. But after I've completed the study, I'll usually be like very similar but deeper. So it's often like... Deeper, like closer than where you were after a few hours of study, but it's like a deeper level in.

Now, what's interesting is, this is a cool thing about chess study. If my understanding was here during the chess game, after like a few hours, I might be like really far away from that. But after I've completed the study, I'll usually be like very similar but deeper. So it's often like... Deeper, like closer than where you were after a few hours of study, but it's like a deeper level in.

But what's the gap between that and that, between where I was in the game and what are the patterns in the gaps? And then if you think about those patterns in the gaps through those lenses of the technical, the thematic, and the psychological. right? We deconstruct it in that way. Then that becomes our game tape, right?

But what's the gap between that and that, between where I was in the game and what are the patterns in the gaps? And then if you think about those patterns in the gaps through those lenses of the technical, the thematic, and the psychological. right? We deconstruct it in that way. Then that becomes our game tape, right?

One of the hardest things for mental athletes is to actually have game tape the way basketball players do or foilers do or fighters do, where you can see the actual game tape. We need to create our mental game tape. So this is a way that I, it both enhances the creative process and creates the game tape for the training process.

One of the hardest things for mental athletes is to actually have game tape the way basketball players do or foilers do or fighters do, where you can see the actual game tape. We need to create our mental game tape. So this is a way that I, it both enhances the creative process and creates the game tape for the training process.

And then studying the gap analysis we do reveals what we need to focus our deliberate practice on.

And then studying the gap analysis we do reveals what we need to focus our deliberate practice on.

It's funny, I wore an Apple watch training a little bit on the ocean and it was good for me because I wanted to like align my intuition on speed with what actually it was showing and it was good to calibrate myself, but man, I took it off. It's so much better being on the ocean without technology. Like being liberated from it, tracking, but yeah.

It's funny, I wore an Apple watch training a little bit on the ocean and it was good for me because I wanted to like align my intuition on speed with what actually it was showing and it was good to calibrate myself, but man, I took it off. It's so much better being on the ocean without technology. Like being liberated from it, tracking, but yeah.

I think that you can – I mean it's a tool that one can utilize tactically or strategically, right? So it can be like if you're in creative flow, just leaving yourself with a sense of direction. Or it can actually be zooming out and thinking about like what is the highest order question. that I'm grappling with, right? But I think it's like one wants to stretch for the, if one is doing the latter,

I think that you can – I mean it's a tool that one can utilize tactically or strategically, right? So it can be like if you're in creative flow, just leaving yourself with a sense of direction. Or it can actually be zooming out and thinking about like what is the highest order question. that I'm grappling with, right? But I think it's like one wants to stretch for the, if one is doing the latter,

the higher order of strategic thinking. It's like, you can think of like one is stretching for the question that matters most with the same kind of intellectual or cognitive intensity that one is experiencing, for example, pushing yourself from like 168 to 176 in cardiovascular interval training, right? Like you're really stretching mentally. So you need to be at your stretch point.

the higher order of strategic thinking. It's like, you can think of like one is stretching for the question that matters most with the same kind of intellectual or cognitive intensity that one is experiencing, for example, pushing yourself from like 168 to 176 in cardiovascular interval training, right? Like you're really stretching mentally. So you need to be at your stretch point.

Growth comes at the point of resistance, right? So we – but intellectually, we're not used to really feeling when we're at our stretch point. So we're thinking about a question, but that's a question. What's the higher order question? What's the higher order question? What's the question that really matters?

Growth comes at the point of resistance, right? So we – but intellectually, we're not used to really feeling when we're at our stretch point. So we're thinking about a question, but that's a question. What's the higher order question? What's the higher order question? What's the question that really matters?

And one way to frame it is like our mind, if we're good at something, slices like a knife through butter through most things. But then there's a place we're stuck. Like those stuck points are the MIQs. Those stuck points are like, right? Like we don't need to wait. We don't need, like mind will just get there. Like, oh, but that's the thing. And then we explore there.

And one way to frame it is like our mind, if we're good at something, slices like a knife through butter through most things. But then there's a place we're stuck. Like those stuck points are the MIQs. Those stuck points are like, right? Like we don't need to wait. We don't need, like mind will just get there. Like, oh, but that's the thing. And then we explore there.

Like what, how do, that stretch within that stuck point.

Like what, how do, that stretch within that stuck point.

That's why we do our cold water training. Like that's where we like, we train at living on the other side of pain, of enjoying it. Like that place, that place that like itches, like bounce away from that, but that's where you need to sit. Right?

That's why we do our cold water training. Like that's where we like, we train at living on the other side of pain, of enjoying it. Like that place, that place that like itches, like bounce away from that, but that's where you need to sit. Right?

But we can practice that thematically, like loving that discomfort, wanting it, hunting for it, like finding the place where we're stuck, and then letting it sit, and then not bouncing away from it, but just releasing it and returning to it. And we have insights, right? Because often in those moments, like where we have our insights are like when we wake up in the morning are those stuck points.

But we can practice that thematically, like loving that discomfort, wanting it, hunting for it, like finding the place where we're stuck, and then letting it sit, and then not bouncing away from it, but just releasing it and returning to it. And we have insights, right? Because often in those moments, like where we have our insights are like when we wake up in the morning are those stuck points.

And I find it's very interesting. I'm sure you've done this. Like I've done like hundreds of diagnostics with people on my teams. Like where do they have most of their creative breakthroughs? And so many of them are in the shower. It's really interesting.

And I find it's very interesting. I'm sure you've done this. Like I've done like hundreds of diagnostics with people on my teams. Like where do they have most of their creative breakthroughs? And so many of them are in the shower. It's really interesting.

I think a big part of that is that like the full body somatic immersion moves them out of conscious thinking into like, because their mind is experiencing. And then the release of the conscious mind allows the unconscious to run and then they tap into it.

I think a big part of that is that like the full body somatic immersion moves them out of conscious thinking into like, because their mind is experiencing. And then the release of the conscious mind allows the unconscious to run and then they tap into it.

I 100% agree with you. And like, so first of all, I agree. First thing in the morning, that's the juice. And the whole MIQ process is geared toward harnessing that, like tapping into that, right?

I 100% agree with you. And like, so first of all, I agree. First thing in the morning, that's the juice. And the whole MIQ process is geared toward harnessing that, like tapping into that, right?

Like feeding the mind, because that just happened to me so many dozens of times where I would just have the insight in the morning, but then I realized I should be finding the areas of stuckness and feeding it to myself to have the insight about. So it's like directing that creative process.

Like feeding the mind, because that just happened to me so many dozens of times where I would just have the insight in the morning, but then I realized I should be finding the areas of stuckness and feeding it to myself to have the insight about. So it's like directing that creative process.

But then if we open up our phones, like the moment we start to see emails without reading them or see anything, we're unconsciously solving for what's in the emails.

But then if we open up our phones, like the moment we start to see emails without reading them or see anything, we're unconsciously solving for what's in the emails.

And if it's four and a half hours, it's not like that's, the rest of the day is feeding into those being brilliant, right? So if it's four and a half hours of creative output time, Then there are other periods where one can have inputs that feed it.

And if it's four and a half hours, it's not like that's, the rest of the day is feeding into those being brilliant, right? So if it's four and a half hours of creative output time, Then there are other periods where one can have inputs that feed it.

I think it's very good for people to have an awareness of what their peaks and valleys are of their energy throughout the day and then align their peak creativity work with their peak energy periods. I think it's really important to not be in a constantly reactive state.

I think it's very good for people to have an awareness of what their peaks and valleys are of their energy throughout the day and then align their peak creativity work with their peak energy periods. I think it's really important to not be in a constantly reactive state.

One of the things I find fascinating is how people will have meetings scheduled everywhere and then fit their thinking between meetings and how liberating it is for them when they actually block out their time for creative output time right? They might be color-coded in their calendar and then have meetings fit around there.

One of the things I find fascinating is how people will have meetings scheduled everywhere and then fit their thinking between meetings and how liberating it is for them when they actually block out their time for creative output time right? They might be color-coded in their calendar and then have meetings fit around there.

So their day is driven by their self-expression as opposed to by a constant set of reactivity and just more and more and more and more, right? I think harnessing the undulation of stress and recovery throughout the day is hugely important.

So their day is driven by their self-expression as opposed to by a constant set of reactivity and just more and more and more and more, right? I think harnessing the undulation of stress and recovery throughout the day is hugely important.

I think having workouts throughout the day, even micro-workouts during their day, meditation periods during the workday, everything being quality over quantity, right? We can get so much more done. And if you think about it, like, I mean, you talk about, like, Elite performing competitive teams.

I think having workouts throughout the day, even micro-workouts during their day, meditation periods during the workday, everything being quality over quantity, right? We can get so much more done. And if you think about it, like, I mean, you talk about, like, Elite performing competitive teams.

It's all about – like if you saw how much video analysis and time the Boston Celtics coaching staff puts into what ends up being like a 35-second clip that's shown to a player or the team. Like it's so much work to then the most potent thing, right? It's like when you're an elite, because like the players are doing something so intense, right? Like it's all about quality, not quantity.

It's all about – like if you saw how much video analysis and time the Boston Celtics coaching staff puts into what ends up being like a 35-second clip that's shown to a player or the team. Like it's so much work to then the most potent thing, right? It's like when you're an elite, because like the players are doing something so intense, right? Like it's all about quality, not quantity.

They're not training basketball 17 hours a day. They could not possibly play then. Or they're training brilliantly for like, you know, maybe an hour and a half a day. Brilliantly, but like with scientifically. or if they're playing for a two-and-a-half to three-hour game, then what's the way to optimize for that? You don't stack six hours of training in before a three-hour game, no.

They're not training basketball 17 hours a day. They could not possibly play then. Or they're training brilliantly for like, you know, maybe an hour and a half a day. Brilliantly, but like with scientifically. or if they're playing for a two-and-a-half to three-hour game, then what's the way to optimize for that? You don't stack six hours of training in before a three-hour game, no.

So much of it is body work and studying some tape and then being primed in the right way to remember what you're looking at on tape and then taking breaks and returning to it and then understanding exactly how much load is in your body and your mind and having your sleep right and your nutrition right and getting everything optimized and then being a peak performer when it's on.

So much of it is body work and studying some tape and then being primed in the right way to remember what you're looking at on tape and then taking breaks and returning to it and then understanding exactly how much load is in your body and your mind and having your sleep right and your nutrition right and getting everything optimized and then being a peak performer when it's on.

But we don't have that discipline as mental beings very often, but we should in our creative process, in our relationships, in the art of being a mom or a dad or a husband or a wife or a friend. Why wouldn't we be cultivating ourselves and being brilliant at that? I really believe in quality as a way of life. That's another very important principle for me.

But we don't have that discipline as mental beings very often, but we should in our creative process, in our relationships, in the art of being a mom or a dad or a husband or a wife or a friend. Why wouldn't we be cultivating ourselves and being brilliant at that? I really believe in quality as a way of life. That's another very important principle for me.

We're either practicing sloppiness or practicing quality. If we do something shitty, then we're practicing shitty quality. And that will, just how like we can harness them, like thematic interconnectedness on the positive side, we can also really harness it brilliantly on the negative side. Every time we practice being sloppiness, we're using thematic interconnectedness to be sloppy in everything.

We're either practicing sloppiness or practicing quality. If we do something shitty, then we're practicing shitty quality. And that will, just how like we can harness them, like thematic interconnectedness on the positive side, we can also really harness it brilliantly on the negative side. Every time we practice being sloppiness, we're using thematic interconnectedness to be sloppy in everything.

I really believe that. So quality is a way of life is a beautiful way to practice quality everywhere because it will manifest everywhere, right? Not in a way that's like robotic or constrictive, no, in a way that's self-expressive and beautiful.

I really believe that. So quality is a way of life is a beautiful way to practice quality everywhere because it will manifest everywhere, right? Not in a way that's like robotic or constrictive, no, in a way that's self-expressive and beautiful.

Yes.

Yes.

Amen.

Amen.

Absolutely, man. Thank you for what you've just said. It's an honor. And I've learned so much from this jam. It feels like the beginning of a beautiful friendship. So just the beginning.

Absolutely, man. Thank you for what you've just said. It's an honor. And I've learned so much from this jam. It feels like the beginning of a beautiful friendship. So just the beginning.

I look forward to it. Thank you, man.

I look forward to it. Thank you, man.

Now, there's sort of like 15 really big questions.

Now, there's sort of like 15 really big questions.

There's some many delectable things to select there. Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, one-on-one competition is so interesting in mental and physical arenas. So if we think about Brazilian jiu-jitsu or chess as two of them, let's zone in on chess because that's when I was a kid. You're thinking about what your plan is and you're also thinking about what your opponent's plan is.

There's some many delectable things to select there. Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, one-on-one competition is so interesting in mental and physical arenas. So if we think about Brazilian jiu-jitsu or chess as two of them, let's zone in on chess because that's when I was a kid. You're thinking about what your plan is and you're also thinking about what your opponent's plan is.

And you have to, every move your opponent makes, you have to think, why did he do that? What's his plan? What is his tactical and what is his strategic plan, short term and long term?

And you have to, every move your opponent makes, you have to think, why did he do that? What's his plan? What is his tactical and what is his strategic plan, short term and long term?

Well, if they don't have a strategy, then they're not going to be a good chess player. And so then very quickly, if you're evolving in that art, you're only playing against people who are at your level or better if you're growing. If you're always playing down, then you're not improving.

Well, if they don't have a strategy, then they're not going to be a good chess player. And so then very quickly, if you're evolving in that art, you're only playing against people who are at your level or better if you're growing. If you're always playing down, then you're not improving.

And there's a beautiful filtration process in, like, the people who accelerate in their growth curve in the chess world are ones who are challenging themselves all the time, playing up, pushing their limits. And so, like, I spent my life against, you know, playing against strong players.

And there's a beautiful filtration process in, like, the people who accelerate in their growth curve in the chess world are ones who are challenging themselves all the time, playing up, pushing their limits. And so, like, I spent my life against, you know, playing against strong players.

And I always played a little up, except for when I was in youth competition, I always played up, which was important for me. And so... People had a plan. And they were very deceptive about their plans. And there are layers to the plans. There's the tactics they're trying to set up. There's their long-term strategy. But then there's what they want me to think their strategy is, which it isn't.

And I always played a little up, except for when I was in youth competition, I always played up, which was important for me. And so... People had a plan. And they were very deceptive about their plans. And there are layers to the plans. There's the tactics they're trying to set up. There's their long-term strategy. But then there's what they want me to think their strategy is, which it isn't.

And in fact, their strategy is to have misdirection. around what their strategy and their tactics are, and there are layers to it, and it can go many, many layers deep. Same thing in the martial arts, right?

And in fact, their strategy is to have misdirection. around what their strategy and their tactics are, and there are layers to it, and it can go many, many layers deep. Same thing in the martial arts, right?

So obviously, you need to have a theory of mind to play that game, at least the way I played chess at a high level, because you're, and there's this very interesting shared consciousness between players. You and I are sitting a little further apart than we would sit if we were playing chess.

So obviously, you need to have a theory of mind to play that game, at least the way I played chess at a high level, because you're, and there's this very interesting shared consciousness between players. You and I are sitting a little further apart than we would sit if we were playing chess.

So if we were like half the distance we are from one another, and we're just sitting for six hours with like a three-foot chessboard, three feet between us, studying this thing, our minds become connected. We often will share the same illusion. You might see something, and then I see it when you see it. If we have the same – we might have the same blind spot. We might have the same insight.

So if we were like half the distance we are from one another, and we're just sitting for six hours with like a three-foot chessboard, three feet between us, studying this thing, our minds become connected. We often will share the same illusion. You might see something, and then I see it when you see it. If we have the same – we might have the same blind spot. We might have the same insight.

The connectedness of minds is fascinating, and it's through chess. It's directly – like energetic, it's through eye contact, it's through body language, it's by seeing micro expressions, it's everything. So you're always reading the opponent. And as you get really good, you learn like what your tells are, what your opponent's tells are.

The connectedness of minds is fascinating, and it's through chess. It's directly – like energetic, it's through eye contact, it's through body language, it's by seeing micro expressions, it's everything. So you're always reading the opponent. And as you get really good, you learn like what your tells are, what your opponent's tells are.

Then you also learn, like I often would have tells on purpose and I'd have predictable tells that I would let people lean on for a long time until I didn't let them lean on it anymore. It's like in the martial arts where you, you know, you, you, you, you give someone comfort in a lean, right? And you give them a rep of something. They can lean on it. They can lean here.

Then you also learn, like I often would have tells on purpose and I'd have predictable tells that I would let people lean on for a long time until I didn't let them lean on it anymore. It's like in the martial arts where you, you know, you, you, you, you give someone comfort in a lean, right? And you give them a rep of something. They can lean on it. They can lean here.

Then they can lean here very comfortably five or six or eight or 10 times in a row until they can't. Then they're on the floor, right? So you're, this is happening in chess. It's happening in all of these things. And one-on-one competition is a relentless truth teller. If you have a weakness, it will be exposed. If your opponent has a weakness, you will expose it.

Then they can lean here very comfortably five or six or eight or 10 times in a row until they can't. Then they're on the floor, right? So you're, this is happening in chess. It's happening in all of these things. And one-on-one competition is a relentless truth teller. If you have a weakness, it will be exposed. If your opponent has a weakness, you will expose it.

If you go into a chess game and you've got a huge opening repertoire that's extremely complex, but there's like one little place that I just hope he doesn't go there, he always goes there. It's so bonkers. You can't hope your opponent's not going to see it. You can't make the second best move because maybe he'll blunder and I'll win. That never works if you're playing as real competition.

If you go into a chess game and you've got a huge opening repertoire that's extremely complex, but there's like one little place that I just hope he doesn't go there, he always goes there. It's so bonkers. You can't hope your opponent's not going to see it. You can't make the second best move because maybe he'll blunder and I'll win. That never works if you're playing as real competition.

And so you need to understand your mind. You need to understand your opponent's mind. You need to understand your opponent's understanding of your mind, right?

And so you need to understand your mind. You need to understand your opponent's mind. You need to understand your opponent's understanding of your mind, right?

Right away. When I was, I mean, just to keep in mind, my first teachers were hustlers, were chess hustlers from Washington Square. So they would mess with my mind all the time. And then they would teach me what they were doing. And they would do it again at a higher level, right? So you're distracting, they're distracting, they're setting traps, they're using Jedi mind tricks of every sort.

Right away. When I was, I mean, just to keep in mind, my first teachers were hustlers, were chess hustlers from Washington Square. So they would mess with my mind all the time. And then they would teach me what they were doing. And they would do it again at a higher level, right? So you're distracting, they're distracting, they're setting traps, they're using Jedi mind tricks of every sort.

They didn't kid gloves you at all. I wouldn't say at all. I mean, this was a rough and tumble crowd. You know, there were a lot of drugs in the park. There was a lot of, like, you know, fights in the park. I mean, these guys took me under their wing. I mean, there were moments where, like, some guy would be going off and the guy would say, hey, Josh is here. You know, cut that out.

They didn't kid gloves you at all. I wouldn't say at all. I mean, this was a rough and tumble crowd. You know, there were a lot of drugs in the park. There was a lot of, like, you know, fights in the park. I mean, these guys took me under their wing. I mean, there were moments where, like, some guy would be going off and the guy would say, hey, Josh is here. You know, cut that out.

Like, I was their protege. So they did. They did. But they also, you know, did not wear thick gloves. And the gloves were thinning out all the time. And I was getting better fast. Then we'd go to war. They were my teachers. They were my friends. I'm super grateful for, like, they – and then –

Like, I was their protege. So they did. They did. But they also, you know, did not wear thick gloves. And the gloves were thinning out all the time. And I was getting better fast. Then we'd go to war. They were my teachers. They were my friends. I'm super grateful for, like, they – and then –

And then what's interesting is that my first classical chess teacher, Bruce Pendolfini, saw me playing in the park and asked my father if I could work with him. And then we started training together. And one of the things that I feel really badly about is the way he was portrayed in the film, Searching for Bobby Fischer, because Bruce is still a dear friend of mine.

And then what's interesting is that my first classical chess teacher, Bruce Pendolfini, saw me playing in the park and asked my father if I could work with him. And then we started training together. And one of the things that I feel really badly about is the way he was portrayed in the film, Searching for Bobby Fischer, because Bruce is still a dear friend of mine.

Ben Kingsley played him as a much more severe person than he was. He was a beautiful teacher. And he really, he wanted me to express myself as did the guys in the park. But he was also filling in the holes and teaching me a classical chess foundation. And we were studying chess from the end game first.

Ben Kingsley played him as a much more severe person than he was. He was a beautiful teacher. And he really, he wanted me to express myself as did the guys in the park. But he was also filling in the holes and teaching me a classical chess foundation. And we were studying chess from the end game first.

Principles, studying positions of reduced complexity to touch high level principles and then learning to apply them to more and more complex positions. So my early chess education had both the classical study with Bruce and it had the street smart game with the hustlers at the park. And

Principles, studying positions of reduced complexity to touch high level principles and then learning to apply them to more and more complex positions. So my early chess education had both the classical study with Bruce and it had the street smart game with the hustlers at the park. And

But to answer your question right away, when I was six years old, like my opponents would mess with my mind and trap me and trick me and make me think here and then they go there and then I would learn to do that. And then I remember there was one like youth competition where I made a move instead of trap and went, oh, shit. I mean, it was like that obvious, right?

But to answer your question right away, when I was six years old, like my opponents would mess with my mind and trap me and trick me and make me think here and then they go there and then I would learn to do that. And then I remember there was one like youth competition where I made a move instead of trap and went, oh, shit. I mean, it was like that obvious, right?

It's like the worst, like, and then it gets increasingly subtle, right? But like, as my opponent said, Oh, he's unhappy, take the pawn, then you and then your opponent see it. And then you learn, you know, those things keep on the circles get smaller and smaller and tighter and tighter and more and more refined.

It's like the worst, like, and then it gets increasingly subtle, right? But like, as my opponent said, Oh, he's unhappy, take the pawn, then you and then your opponent see it. And then you learn, you know, those things keep on the circles get smaller and smaller and tighter and tighter and more and more refined.

Well, I'm really grateful for my early chess life. And I also would never choose to put that on my children. I mean, it worked out really well for me. I mean, I have my wounds, right? I mean, there's lots of things that I've had to grapple with. But I think if you put a lot of children through the pressures that I went through, it wouldn't work out well.

Well, I'm really grateful for my early chess life. And I also would never choose to put that on my children. I mean, it worked out really well for me. I mean, I have my wounds, right? I mean, there's lots of things that I've had to grapple with. But I think if you put a lot of children through the pressures that I went through, it wouldn't work out well.

And I watched a lot of my young, I mean, almost all my young rivals, or I mean, like very close to all of my young rivals ended up quitting and falling into crisis. And, you know, then you have parents and coaches who are expressing their own egoic needs through the children and the children are shouldering that. And then that becomes very difficult to deal with.

And I watched a lot of my young, I mean, almost all my young rivals, or I mean, like very close to all of my young rivals ended up quitting and falling into crisis. And, you know, then you have parents and coaches who are expressing their own egoic needs through the children and the children are shouldering that. And then that becomes very difficult to deal with.

And then you're dealing with heartbreak and you're putting everything on the line and you're losing and you're dealing with your own self-doubts. The heartbreak of your mother and your father and your coach and your friends. I mean, there are so many. And then as the pressures get more and more intense in chess, like you really are putting your heart and soul on the line through that chessboard.

And then you're dealing with heartbreak and you're putting everything on the line and you're losing and you're dealing with your own self-doubts. The heartbreak of your mother and your father and your coach and your friends. I mean, there are so many. And then as the pressures get more and more intense in chess, like you really are putting your heart and soul on the line through that chessboard.

In casual games, let alone in national and world championships. And you're being shattered when you lose. I was shattered many times over. I mean, I lost last rounds of national chess championships and world championships multiple times over. And those were the greatest moments of my life in retrospect. They taught me. the most important lessons of my life. I would never take it back.

In casual games, let alone in national and world championships. And you're being shattered when you lose. I was shattered many times over. I mean, I lost last rounds of national chess championships and world championships multiple times over. And those were the greatest moments of my life in retrospect. They taught me. the most important lessons of my life. I would never take it back.

And that's a pattern in my chess life and my fight life and everything I've gone through. The most heartbreaking, devastating moments ultimately were the ones that catalyzed the most growth. And they were beautiful. And I really relate to them that way. But they also can be brutal for young minds and they can destroy people.

And that's a pattern in my chess life and my fight life and everything I've gone through. The most heartbreaking, devastating moments ultimately were the ones that catalyzed the most growth. And they were beautiful. And I really relate to them that way. But they also can be brutal for young minds and they can destroy people.

Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah. Well, I think the study you sent me yesterday speaks to this.

Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah. Well, I think the study you sent me yesterday speaks to this.

Yeah, maybe I'll answer that question experientially. Maybe you could then talk about the study and we can riff on it a little bit. This is so much fun, by the way, because I've lived my life in the arena, just like pushing myself. I'm not a scientist, but I'm like my own laboratory. You said to me yesterday at the game, like,

Yeah, maybe I'll answer that question experientially. Maybe you could then talk about the study and we can riff on it a little bit. This is so much fun, by the way, because I've lived my life in the arena, just like pushing myself. I'm not a scientist, but I'm like my own laboratory. You said to me yesterday at the game, like,

I think the way that I, like if I think about the most painful losses of my life, the most devastating injuries of my life. I think about dying, drowning. I drowned on the bottom of doing hypoxic breath work in a pool. I was on the bottom of the pool four and a half minutes after that. It led to arguably the best decision of my life to move into the jungle.

I think the way that I, like if I think about the most painful losses of my life, the most devastating injuries of my life. I think about dying, drowning. I drowned on the bottom of doing hypoxic breath work in a pool. I was on the bottom of the pool four and a half minutes after that. It led to arguably the best decision of my life to move into the jungle.

I think about losing the last round of the Under-18 World Chess Championship on the first board. That's a very interesting story I could describe a little bit. Or I think about my first national championship I lost when I was seven, eight, first board, last round, just unobstructed learning until then. And then I lost the last round for the title. Fell into an opening trap.

I think about losing the last round of the Under-18 World Chess Championship on the first board. That's a very interesting story I could describe a little bit. Or I think about my first national championship I lost when I was seven, eight, first board, last round, just unobstructed learning until then. And then I lost the last round for the title. Fell into an opening trap.

Like that's the loss that was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. You were how old? I think I'd just turned eight or maybe I was late seven. And like that was, it was, because if I had won that game, I would, I easily could have associated winning with just no pain, no heart, just cruising up into the end. That was the moment that like I got my ass kicked.

Like that's the loss that was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. You were how old? I think I'd just turned eight or maybe I was late seven. And like that was, it was, because if I had won that game, I would, I easily could have associated winning with just no pain, no heart, just cruising up into the end. That was the moment that like I got my ass kicked.

I had to go back, you know, deal with these demons, come back, train for the next year. And then I won the next year and then it was off to the races. my life might look very different if I'd won that game. And actually, the kid who beat me in that game, David Arnett, became, two years later, we became best friends. For all of our childhood, we were on the same chess team and best friends.

I had to go back, you know, deal with these demons, come back, train for the next year. And then I won the next year and then it was off to the races. my life might look very different if I'd won that game. And actually, the kid who beat me in that game, David Arnett, became, two years later, we became best friends. For all of our childhood, we were on the same chess team and best friends.

And I think he gave me the greatest gift of my competitive life by kicking my ass that game. The most devastating loss of my chess life Was – so I was 17 years old. I was competing in the world under 18 chess championship in Szeged, Hungary. Every – so every year there's another 12, 14, 16, 18, 21 world championship and I was always representing the US in those tournaments around the world and I –

And I think he gave me the greatest gift of my competitive life by kicking my ass that game. The most devastating loss of my chess life Was – so I was 17 years old. I was competing in the world under 18 chess championship in Szeged, Hungary. Every – so every year there's another 12, 14, 16, 18, 21 world championship and I was always representing the US in those tournaments around the world and I –

travel to India or Brazil or Hungary or Germany or somewhere and compete in the world championship. And under 18 Worlds, I played the tournament. I just was playing very inspired chess. I had just picked up On the Road three weeks before Jack Kerouac. I had become – I was just on fire with Kerouac's vision and I was –

travel to India or Brazil or Hungary or Germany or somewhere and compete in the world championship. And under 18 Worlds, I played the tournament. I just was playing very inspired chess. I had just picked up On the Road three weeks before Jack Kerouac. I had become – I was just on fire with Kerouac's vision and I was –

just so like appreciating life with this freshness and intensity than I'd ever had, more than I'd ever had. I was like totally on fire in chess, in life, in love, in everything. And I was paired against Peter Svidler, who was the Russian. We were on the first board last round. We were playing for the world championship.

just so like appreciating life with this freshness and intensity than I'd ever had, more than I'd ever had. I was like totally on fire in chess, in life, in love, in everything. And I was paired against Peter Svidler, who was the Russian. We were on the first board last round. We were playing for the world championship.

Every country sends their national champion, so it's a long tournament to get there. Early in the game, I think it was move 12, he offered me a draw. So if I'd accepted the draw for – it would have gone to tie breaks. I didn't know exactly what was happening, but I thought that he was slightly favored in tie breaks.

Every country sends their national champion, so it's a long tournament to get there. Early in the game, I think it was move 12, he offered me a draw. So if I'd accepted the draw for – it would have gone to tie breaks. I didn't know exactly what was happening, but I thought that he was slightly favored in tie breaks.

I wasn't sure, but basically the world championship would be determined or the gold medal would be determined by how our opponents in previous rounds did in the last round. But I hadn't calculated it out before, but I had a feeling it – It was like – maybe it was like 40-60 or 30-70 against me. But it was my style. I never accept a draw first. That wasn't my style. I always wanted to fight.

I wasn't sure, but basically the world championship would be determined or the gold medal would be determined by how our opponents in previous rounds did in the last round. But I hadn't calculated it out before, but I had a feeling it – It was like – maybe it was like 40-60 or 30-70 against me. But it was my style. I never accept a draw first. That wasn't my style. I always wanted to fight.

So I declined, pushed for a win. Now, the beauty of his decision was also he offered me a draw in the critical position where I had to make a very specific decision. which is a trick that chess players play on one another, which is that like if you're, we should talk about tension at one point. It's a really beautiful theme to explore in different sports.

So I declined, pushed for a win. Now, the beauty of his decision was also he offered me a draw in the critical position where I had to make a very specific decision. which is a trick that chess players play on one another, which is that like if you're, we should talk about tension at one point. It's a really beautiful theme to explore in different sports.

So one thing that happens in chess games is that you have this building tension between minds and often the tension on the chess board and the tension on the minds are mounting together. And the urge, the need to release psychological tension often leads to the decision to release chess tension. in the chess pieces.

So one thing that happens in chess games is that you have this building tension between minds and often the tension on the chess board and the tension on the minds are mounting together. And the urge, the need to release psychological tension often leads to the decision to release chess tension. in the chess pieces.

And when you release chess tension, usually the person who releases the tension will be on the wrong side of tactics. So a lot of chess, the chess game is about putting mental pressure on the opponent to force them to break the tension on the chess board. So in that game, he offered me a draw. So you think about it, we're 17 years old, we're 10 days into a world championship battle.

And when you release chess tension, usually the person who releases the tension will be on the wrong side of tactics. So a lot of chess, the chess game is about putting mental pressure on the opponent to force them to break the tension on the chess board. So in that game, he offered me a draw. So you think about it, we're 17 years old, we're 10 days into a world championship battle.

Even no matter how much we love the battle, some piece of ourselves wants a way out. Like we want to release the tension. It's just elemental to who we are when we're living with that much pressure. So all I have to do then is like accept the draw, shake hands. And the tournament's over and then it's out of our hands what happens. So in that moment, I have to also make a critical chess position.

Even no matter how much we love the battle, some piece of ourselves wants a way out. Like we want to release the tension. It's just elemental to who we are when we're living with that much pressure. So all I have to do then is like accept the draw, shake hands. And the tournament's over and then it's out of our hands what happens. So in that moment, I have to also make a critical chess position.

So the urge to release the tension is subtly entering into my chess decision. And in that move, I declined the draw and I made a slightly overaggressive move. which turned and he ended up playing a beautiful game, big attack, beating me. I lose the world championship. Just this close to like your dream. You're shattered, right?

So the urge to release the tension is subtly entering into my chess decision. And in that move, I declined the draw and I made a slightly overaggressive move. which turned and he ended up playing a beautiful game, big attack, beating me. I lose the world championship. Just this close to like your dream. You're shattered, right?

I then went and hitchhiked across Eastern Europe to meet my girlfriend at the time in a little town in Slovenia and we broke up and ended up meeting again in a street corner in Brazil, the world under 21 championship three weeks later. lots of drama, you know, being a 17 year old kid. I didn't study that chess loss for two and a half months. It was so painful to me.

I then went and hitchhiked across Eastern Europe to meet my girlfriend at the time in a little town in Slovenia and we broke up and ended up meeting again in a street corner in Brazil, the world under 21 championship three weeks later. lots of drama, you know, being a 17 year old kid. I didn't study that chess loss for two and a half months. It was so painful to me.

I always studied games immediately afterwards. And I always, you might study a chess game for anywhere between three and 15 hours studying one chess game. And that's that say 10 hours is focused on the two or three critical positions of the game. And this was before chess computers were rampant and you had chess engines that could always just tell you the answer to, um,

I always studied games immediately afterwards. And I always, you might study a chess game for anywhere between three and 15 hours studying one chess game. And that's that say 10 hours is focused on the two or three critical positions of the game. And this was before chess computers were rampant and you had chess engines that could always just tell you the answer to, um,

That's also something we should talk about later, how chess engines and AI chess engines change the nature of who chess players are because you can have the answer right away versus having to sit in cognitive and emotional dissonance for sometimes weeks or months at a time without knowing the answer. But we'll come back to that maybe. So I didn't study that loss for –

That's also something we should talk about later, how chess engines and AI chess engines change the nature of who chess players are because you can have the answer right away versus having to sit in cognitive and emotional dissonance for sometimes weeks or months at a time without knowing the answer. But we'll come back to that maybe. So I didn't study that loss for –

two and a half months because it was so painful to me. Then I was, my family spent a lot of time at sea, which was an interesting part of my life and my chess life, living on a little boat, catching our own food, doing our own engine work. And I was at sea after competing in both of those world championships and some other things. And I sat down to study that game.

two and a half months because it was so painful to me. Then I was, my family spent a lot of time at sea, which was an interesting part of my life and my chess life, living on a little boat, catching our own food, doing our own engine work. And I was at sea after competing in both of those world championships and some other things. And I sat down to study that game.

And I spent, you know, dozen plus hours studying that one critical position of the game. And then I realized what the Like the move I should have made was outside of my conceptual scheme in that critical position. I wasn't ready to make the move I had to make. And he was also, I think, a slightly stronger chess player than me. I was a great fighter. I loved the battle.

And I spent, you know, dozen plus hours studying that one critical position of the game. And then I realized what the Like the move I should have made was outside of my conceptual scheme in that critical position. I wasn't ready to make the move I had to make. And he was also, I think, a slightly stronger chess player than me. I was a great fighter. I loved the battle.

But I think objectively, he was a better... His name is Peter Svidler. He ended up becoming a world-class grandmaster and is just an incredible chess player today. At the time, he was just amazingly brilliant, beautiful, fluid mind. But I was confident going into the game. So I had to make this move...

But I think objectively, he was a better... His name is Peter Svidler. He ended up becoming a world-class grandmaster and is just an incredible chess player today. At the time, he was just amazingly brilliant, beautiful, fluid mind. But I was confident going into the game. So I had to make this move...

that would essentially be his attack was on the king's side, my expansion was on the queen's side. I had to remove my final defensive piece from in front of my king, away from my king's side, which is super counterintuitive because you think you want to defend your king. What I didn't realize is like harnessing the power of empty space against aggression.

that would essentially be his attack was on the king's side, my expansion was on the queen's side. I had to remove my final defensive piece from in front of my king, away from my king's side, which is super counterintuitive because you think you want to defend your king. What I didn't realize is like harnessing the power of empty space against aggression.

His attack needed my defense like fire needs fuel to burn. Moving my last defensive piece, his attack couldn't break through. But that principle was something I didn't understand at all. And so it's not like I would have found that move, but it was a real pop in my mind, right? So then I was 17, 18 years old. And then a year later, I started studying Tai Chi.

His attack needed my defense like fire needs fuel to burn. Moving my last defensive piece, his attack couldn't break through. But that principle was something I didn't understand at all. And so it's not like I would have found that move, but it was a real pop in my mind, right? So then I was 17, 18 years old. And then a year later, I started studying Tai Chi.

So I was studying Taoist meditation, Taoist philosophy, the Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu, the inner chapters. And then I get into Tai Chi, I started moving meditation, and I started doing Tai Chi Chuan, push hands. without making the connection. Push hands is the martial art, which is like the essence of push hands is learning to utilize empty space against aggression.

So I was studying Taoist meditation, Taoist philosophy, the Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu, the inner chapters. And then I get into Tai Chi, I started moving meditation, and I started doing Tai Chi Chuan, push hands. without making the connection. Push hands is the martial art, which is like the essence of push hands is learning to utilize empty space against aggression.

But I hadn't connected it to that moment. Then you fast forward to 2004 World Championship, which is what the art of learning ended with. The final chapter of that is the World Championship finals. I'm fighting this guy bigger than me, stronger than me. He's been training since childhood. Final fight in a big stadium, everyone wanting me to be destroyed in the biggest fight of my life.

But I hadn't connected it to that moment. Then you fast forward to 2004 World Championship, which is what the art of learning ended with. The final chapter of that is the World Championship finals. I'm fighting this guy bigger than me, stronger than me. He's been training since childhood. Final fight in a big stadium, everyone wanting me to be destroyed in the biggest fight of my life.

And I won that fight by harnessing the power of empty space, by letting him feel my weakness, by leaning on him, and then disappearing. So it's very interesting how there was no mental process. There's no conscious processing of that connection. But the biggest loss of my chess life and then the principle, which I wasn't ready to understand yet,

And I won that fight by harnessing the power of empty space, by letting him feel my weakness, by leaning on him, and then disappearing. So it's very interesting how there was no mental process. There's no conscious processing of that connection. But the biggest loss of my chess life and then the principle, which I wasn't ready to understand yet,

was how I won the world championship in the martial arts so many years later in a completely different discipline, right? So it's an example of, like, and of course that principle is manifest in every part of my life today. But, like, that's one of many stories in my life where, like, a loss spurs an insight which might consciously or often unconsciously lead to something incredible down the road.

was how I won the world championship in the martial arts so many years later in a completely different discipline, right? So it's an example of, like, and of course that principle is manifest in every part of my life today. But, like, that's one of many stories in my life where, like, a loss spurs an insight which might consciously or often unconsciously lead to something incredible down the road.

And I think that one of the biggest challenges that we have, it's so interesting that the loss of a world chess championship final leads to the win, direct lesson, leads to the win of a world championship in a fighting realm. And how common that is.

And I think that one of the biggest challenges that we have, it's so interesting that the loss of a world chess championship final leads to the win, direct lesson, leads to the win of a world championship in a fighting realm. And how common that is.

And one of the things that I think about, like when you sit down with great competitors, again and again, when you hear their inner journey, the most heartbreaking losses lead to the transformational change, which leads to the biggest wins of their life. whether it's in basketball, whether it's in fighting, whether it's in business, it's in finance, it's in writing. Love. Oh, and love.

And one of the things that I think about, like when you sit down with great competitors, again and again, when you hear their inner journey, the most heartbreaking losses lead to the transformational change, which leads to the biggest wins of their life. whether it's in basketball, whether it's in fighting, whether it's in business, it's in finance, it's in writing. Love. Oh, and love.

Yeah, sure. Well, thank you, man. It's an honor. I appreciate what you said. Yeah, so I started playing chess. I grew up in New York City, downtown Manhattan. I started playing chess when I was six years old. And I discovered chess walking through Washington Square Park with my mom. And I remember watching a day or two and then at one point I broke away from her.

Yeah, sure. Well, thank you, man. It's an honor. I appreciate what you said. Yeah, so I started playing chess. I grew up in New York City, downtown Manhattan. I started playing chess when I was six years old. And I discovered chess walking through Washington Square Park with my mom. And I remember watching a day or two and then at one point I broke away from her.

I was going to play on monkey bars and I ran over and I asked an old man if I could play. And he said yes and my mom was surprised and we started playing. I played my first game of chess. And I remember the very distinct feeling of... it was as if I was just discovering or rediscovering a lost memory. It wasn't like I was learning something new.

I was going to play on monkey bars and I ran over and I asked an old man if I could play. And he said yes and my mom was surprised and we started playing. I played my first game of chess. And I remember the very distinct feeling of... it was as if I was just discovering or rediscovering a lost memory. It wasn't like I was learning something new.

Yeah. Well, even sitting with you now thinking about it, it seems ridiculous for a chess game to be, losing a chess game to be anywhere near like the absolute heartbreak of losing a loved one. And yet we can make things very large in our minds and in our beings, right? I think that human, I mean, one thing I think about is how hard we fight to maintain our conceptual schemes, our identities.

Yeah. Well, even sitting with you now thinking about it, it seems ridiculous for a chess game to be, losing a chess game to be anywhere near like the absolute heartbreak of losing a loved one. And yet we can make things very large in our minds and in our beings, right? I think that human, I mean, one thing I think about is how hard we fight to maintain our conceptual schemes, our identities.

even if they're torturing us.

even if they're torturing us.

It was like I was wiping away the dust or the cobwebs between something, between me and something I had known very deeply at one point. Very strange feeling for a six year old boy. And then I just fell in love with the game. I got really intensely into it. My first teachers were the hustlers in Washington Square.

It was like I was wiping away the dust or the cobwebs between something, between me and something I had known very deeply at one point. Very strange feeling for a six year old boy. And then I just fell in love with the game. I got really intensely into it. My first teachers were the hustlers in Washington Square.

Right. And one of the things that I reflect on and that I've cultivated, it's very hard, but that I work to cultivate, is when you're in those moments of rupture, to both be in the rupture and have the perspective that we will have later about the rupture. Which is not to say... not being in the rupture.

Right. And one of the things that I reflect on and that I've cultivated, it's very hard, but that I work to cultivate, is when you're in those moments of rupture, to both be in the rupture and have the perspective that we will have later about the rupture. Which is not to say... not being in the rupture.

One of the things I feel badly about in, like when I wrote The Art of Learning, I spoke a lot about process and outcome and it had a big impact in the chess world. And then what happened is there were generations of parents who had young kid chess players who their kids would go to compete and the parents would say, it doesn't matter if you win or lose, all that matters is the process.

One of the things I feel badly about in, like when I wrote The Art of Learning, I spoke a lot about process and outcome and it had a big impact in the chess world. And then what happened is there were generations of parents who had young kid chess players who their kids would go to compete and the parents would say, it doesn't matter if you win or lose, all that matters is the process.

It doesn't matter if you win or lose. And the kids are like putting on their armor to go to battle Mental battle. And chess is fucking intense. Like when you're playing chess, you're putting your mind, your body, your psyche, everything like on the line. And if you lose, you feel shattered. Like that's just how you feel.

It doesn't matter if you win or lose. And the kids are like putting on their armor to go to battle Mental battle. And chess is fucking intense. Like when you're playing chess, you're putting your mind, your body, your psyche, everything like on the line. And if you lose, you feel shattered. Like that's just how you feel.

If you're not trying your hardest, then we can't even, we shouldn't even be talking about you. So let's say you are trying your hardest. You're putting it all on the line. It's on the line. And you lose and you're shattered. Like every part of you didn't, you feel destroyed. So the kids are putting on their armor to go to battle and the parent tells them, it doesn't matter if I win or lose.

If you're not trying your hardest, then we can't even, we shouldn't even be talking about you. So let's say you are trying your hardest. You're putting it all on the line. It's on the line. And you lose and you're shattered. Like every part of you didn't, you feel destroyed. So the kids are putting on their armor to go to battle and the parent tells them, it doesn't matter if I win or lose.

It's deeply confusing. And the kids actually usually know that the parents are full of shit. The parents actually care so much and they feel guilty about how much they care about their kid's result. They're telling their kid that to feel less guilty about the fact that they're putting their own egoic needs on their child. And it's all like, and the kids see it all.

It's deeply confusing. And the kids actually usually know that the parents are full of shit. The parents actually care so much and they feel guilty about how much they care about their kid's result. They're telling their kid that to feel less guilty about the fact that they're putting their own egoic needs on their child. And it's all like, and the kids see it all.

That's the hilarious thing is you get an eight, 10, 11 year old, like they see it all. And they're like, mom, give me a break. And the parents are just stuck in their guilt and absurdity. seen this so many times. So like the discussion of process and outcome is so subtle, right? Because yes, it's about the process. It's about the journey. It's about the long-term process.

That's the hilarious thing is you get an eight, 10, 11 year old, like they see it all. And they're like, mom, give me a break. And the parents are just stuck in their guilt and absurdity. seen this so many times. So like the discussion of process and outcome is so subtle, right? Because yes, it's about the process. It's about the journey. It's about the long-term process.

But if we don't care about the results, the process won't work. So we need to put ourselves on the line enough to be shattered and the process is what really matters. But it's not that we can liberate ourselves from caring enough to be shattered because then we're not engaged.

But if we don't care about the results, the process won't work. So we need to put ourselves on the line enough to be shattered and the process is what really matters. But it's not that we can liberate ourselves from caring enough to be shattered because then we're not engaged.

So it was just like a raucous crowd of guys who took me under their wings, started teaching me the tactical street side of the game. And I was just unhindered as a learner, which is interesting from my perspective now as a dad because my little boy, Charlie, is taking on surfing with that same kind of freedom, just that liberated, uncomplicated, out-of-his-own-way kind of vibe.

So it was just like a raucous crowd of guys who took me under their wings, started teaching me the tactical street side of the game. And I was just unhindered as a learner, which is interesting from my perspective now as a dad because my little boy, Charlie, is taking on surfing with that same kind of freedom, just that liberated, uncomplicated, out-of-his-own-way kind of vibe.

And it is something about putting our egos on the line that is what leads to the growth surges that great competitors have, the ones who become virtuosos, right? And so then that stated, how can we experience the simultaneity of being shattered and having the perspective that this is probably the greatest thing that ever happened to me?

And it is something about putting our egos on the line that is what leads to the growth surges that great competitors have, the ones who become virtuosos, right? And so then that stated, how can we experience the simultaneity of being shattered and having the perspective that this is probably the greatest thing that ever happened to me?

It's a very interesting thing when you're talking about competitors. What is the right balance between like playing up and playing down, right? Like how much do you want to build the confidence of a young competitor or artist or person or any of us, young, whatever age? And how much do you want to be stretched a little bit beyond your ability so that your weaknesses are exposed?

It's a very interesting thing when you're talking about competitors. What is the right balance between like playing up and playing down, right? Like how much do you want to build the confidence of a young competitor or artist or person or any of us, young, whatever age? And how much do you want to be stretched a little bit beyond your ability so that your weaknesses are exposed?

You have to take them on and you have to grow. And getting that balance right. is hugely important. And it's not simple. Like a lot of boxing training camps are based around the boxer's confidence being everything. And you want them to feel invincible going into the ring, right?

You have to take them on and you have to grow. And getting that balance right. is hugely important. And it's not simple. Like a lot of boxing training camps are based around the boxer's confidence being everything. And you want them to feel invincible going into the ring, right?

And then from another perspective, it's something very powerful about having a training camp that's so intense that all your weaknesses are exposed. You have to take them on. If you're not sparring against people who can expose your weaknesses, then you don't know what they are. You don't have the chance to grow, right? I mean, I...

And then from another perspective, it's something very powerful about having a training camp that's so intense that all your weaknesses are exposed. You have to take them on. If you're not sparring against people who can expose your weaknesses, then you don't know what they are. You don't have the chance to grow, right? I mean, I...

I live at this point with a trying to be at max stretch without snapping, right? Like, for example, if I look at my foiling, like if I'm not falling enough during a foil session, then I'm not pushing my turns hard enough. And if I'm, yeah, if you're just succeeding all the time, then you're not pushing yourself enough.

I live at this point with a trying to be at max stretch without snapping, right? Like, for example, if I look at my foiling, like if I'm not falling enough during a foil session, then I'm not pushing my turns hard enough. And if I'm, yeah, if you're just succeeding all the time, then you're not pushing yourself enough.

Yeah, and then by the time I was seven, I started competing, and then I was a top-rated player for my age in the country for most of the years from age 7 to 23, my whole chess career. So it was a very strange...

Yeah, and then by the time I was seven, I started competing, and then I was a top-rated player for my age in the country for most of the years from age 7 to 23, my whole chess career. So it was a very strange...

upbringing in some ways, which has led to some quirky elements in my psychology, which was that I was living in a pressure cooker of competition from age six on, and my whole childhood was spent as the target.

upbringing in some ways, which has led to some quirky elements in my psychology, which was that I was living in a pressure cooker of competition from age six on, and my whole childhood was spent as the target.

I spent a lot of time playing with frame rates. And I had this experience that I wrote about that slowing down time chapter of The Art of Learning where I And I had these experiences both in chess and in fighting. One time I was fighting against a super heavyweight dude in a competition and my hand shattered. And I broke my hand right here.

I spent a lot of time playing with frame rates. And I had this experience that I wrote about that slowing down time chapter of The Art of Learning where I And I had these experiences both in chess and in fighting. One time I was fighting against a super heavyweight dude in a competition and my hand shattered. And I broke my hand right here.

And it was interesting because the fight was very intense, reasonably hard, and my hand broke and instantly time slowed down. And he was moving in slow motion. And I was able to just so easily play with someone with like a broken hand compared to what had been a war before. We know what that is.

And it was interesting because the fight was very intense, reasonably hard, and my hand broke and instantly time slowed down. And he was moving in slow motion. And I was able to just so easily play with someone with like a broken hand compared to what had been a war before. We know what that is.

It's adrenaline. Adrenaline. Yeah. Adrenaline and that tunnel vision and then the frames are fat.

It's adrenaline. Adrenaline. Yeah. Adrenaline and that tunnel vision and then the frames are fat.

So then the question then became for me, and this would be fun to talk, I've never spoken to a scientist about this process, like how do I learn to do that at will, right? And then how can I train, because I can't just pump myself with adrenaline all the time, or maybe I can learn to have that physiological response. You can deploy it. Right, so then how can I deploy it, right?

So then the question then became for me, and this would be fun to talk, I've never spoken to a scientist about this process, like how do I learn to do that at will, right? And then how can I train, because I can't just pump myself with adrenaline all the time, or maybe I can learn to have that physiological response. You can deploy it. Right, so then how can I deploy it, right?

What are triggers for having that chemical change? And then also, how can I train so that, I have the experience of more frames than my opponent. And so Marcelo Garcia, he's known as the king of the scramble, he spends his whole time in transition. So if you're training jujitsu with most people, they're always finding a position and holding it.

What are triggers for having that chemical change? And then also, how can I train so that, I have the experience of more frames than my opponent. And so Marcelo Garcia, he's known as the king of the scramble, he spends his whole time in transition. So if you're training jujitsu with most people, they're always finding a position and holding it.

And so, like, if you're competing in national championships, you know, I would compete in youth national and world championships, and then otherwise I'd be competing against adults, everything else. But then you're the target, so any mistake you make – and kids make mistakes all the time, we all do –

And so, like, if you're competing in national championships, you know, I would compete in youth national and world championships, and then otherwise I'd be competing against adults, everything else. But then you're the target, so any mistake you make – and kids make mistakes all the time, we all do –

Marcelo, one of the unique things about his training life for most of his life was that he never held positions. He was always moving, he was always in the in between. And it's true in most arts is that people think that the art is the positions that they see, but the real high level art is the space in between the positions.

Marcelo, one of the unique things about his training life for most of his life was that he never held positions. He was always moving, he was always in the in between. And it's true in most arts is that people think that the art is the positions that they see, but the real high level art is the space in between the positions.

So if we have this position leads to this position, that's going to be like, there's going to be no frames in between for most people. For some people that might be four frames, but if I have a hundred frames, then I can play in pockets that you don't see. And so if you're living your life in the training process in the in-between, in the transition.

So if we have this position leads to this position, that's going to be like, there's going to be no frames in between for most people. For some people that might be four frames, but if I have a hundred frames, then I can play in pockets that you don't see. And so if you're living your life in the training process in the in-between, in the transition.

If you're always, the way that manifests in the actual, like, for example, jujitsu training or submission grappling training is if you're not holding positions, you're always moving and you're spending all of your time in the in-between while people who are holding position are always static. So if you go to a jujitsu school and you sit and watch, it's interesting to look for this one thing.

If you're always, the way that manifests in the actual, like, for example, jujitsu training or submission grappling training is if you're not holding positions, you're always moving and you're spending all of your time in the in-between while people who are holding position are always static. So if you go to a jujitsu school and you sit and watch, it's interesting to look for this one thing.

Notice the amount of time static versus in motion. Marcelo was always in motion. There's a beautiful clip of him that you got, people can look up. It's in Arte Suave. It was an old documentary back in the day. like 25 years ago, I think it was, it's on YouTube. It's like an eight minute clip of him training as an, I think an 18 year old.

Notice the amount of time static versus in motion. Marcelo was always in motion. There's a beautiful clip of him that you got, people can look up. It's in Arte Suave. It was an old documentary back in the day. like 25 years ago, I think it was, it's on YouTube. It's like an eight minute clip of him training as an, I think an 18 year old.

And you watch him just like in the early days of him learning this transitional approach. And he's just never stopping. He's always allowing the person, but you have to get past the egoic dynamics. Cause you can't, you're like, you're giving up on dominating people all the time. Cause when you're in a dominant position in jujitsu, you want to hold it cause you've won.

And you watch him just like in the early days of him learning this transitional approach. And he's just never stopping. He's always allowing the person, but you have to get past the egoic dynamics. Cause you can't, you're like, you're giving up on dominating people all the time. Cause when you're in a dominant position in jujitsu, you want to hold it cause you've won.

And there's all this bullshit passing between men who are fighting or women who are fighting each other. We want to dominate, but, If you release that and you're thinking about the learning process and you stop holding, then you're moving and you're getting nonstop exposure to the in-between. So if you spend your life training in the in-between, then you have more frames than other people do.

And there's all this bullshit passing between men who are fighting or women who are fighting each other. We want to dominate, but, If you release that and you're thinking about the learning process and you stop holding, then you're moving and you're getting nonstop exposure to the in-between. So if you spend your life training in the in-between, then you have more frames than other people do.

That's a lot of what illusionists are doing. They spend all of their time training in the spaces that other people don't look at. And so it's not magic. It's brilliant training. It's the art of illusion at the in-between. And a lot of the things that you can do, a high-level martial artist can do to a lower-level martial artist or someone who doesn't train, it feels mystical.

That's a lot of what illusionists are doing. They spend all of their time training in the spaces that other people don't look at. And so it's not magic. It's brilliant training. It's the art of illusion at the in-between. And a lot of the things that you can do, a high-level martial artist can do to a lower-level martial artist or someone who doesn't train, it feels mystical.

It's all about that principle manifest in interesting ways. And in general, like for me, and this goes back to the question you asked two or three brilliant, expansive questions ago around intense moments. A lot of what my training has been is having some serendipitous intense moment and then learning, and then it becomes a beacon.

It's all about that principle manifest in interesting ways. And in general, like for me, and this goes back to the question you asked two or three brilliant, expansive questions ago around intense moments. A lot of what my training has been is having some serendipitous intense moment and then learning, and then it becomes a beacon.

My rivals and their coaches who are strong masters and international masters and grandmasters would be able to study. And adult strong players can see very easily the weaknesses in a child. And so they would be prepared for them. So if I didn't take on a weakness, it would be exploited and I would experience pain.

My rivals and their coaches who are strong masters and international masters and grandmasters would be able to study. And adult strong players can see very easily the weaknesses in a child. And so they would be prepared for them. So if I didn't take on a weakness, it would be exploited and I would experience pain.

So for example, there was a moment I was playing in a world chess championship in Calicut, India, and I was deep into a calculation, couldn't find the solution, and then there was an earthquake. And everything started, in the actual world, everything started shaking, right? But I experienced the earthquake from inside of the chess position, And I knew there was an earthquake, but I also was lost.

So for example, there was a moment I was playing in a world chess championship in Calicut, India, and I was deep into a calculation, couldn't find the solution, and then there was an earthquake. And everything started, in the actual world, everything started shaking, right? But I experienced the earthquake from inside of the chess position, And I knew there was an earthquake, but I also was lost.

My brain was lost in the labyrinth. And I found the solution. And then I got up and left, vacated, because we had to leave the playing hall. Then we came back and I made my move and went on to win. And it was so interesting because it was like, and then I,

My brain was lost in the labyrinth. And I found the solution. And then I got up and left, vacated, because we had to leave the playing hall. Then we came back and I made my move and went on to win. And it was so interesting because it was like, and then I,

The earthquake, like a lot of what happens in chess is that you're reaching so deep into the complexity, like into the cupboard, but the solution is right here at the front. And all you have to do is come back out and surface.

The earthquake, like a lot of what happens in chess is that you're reaching so deep into the complexity, like into the cupboard, but the solution is right here at the front. And all you have to do is come back out and surface.

One of the best ways, by the way, to prevent, to minimize chess blunders with like talented young players or players of any age is to shift the order of decide, make the move, and then write it down because you notate your chess games to... decide, write it down, and then make the move. The write it down is a resurfacing, and you have common sense, look at the position.

One of the best ways, by the way, to prevent, to minimize chess blunders with like talented young players or players of any age is to shift the order of decide, make the move, and then write it down because you notate your chess games to... decide, write it down, and then make the move. The write it down is a resurfacing, and you have common sense, look at the position.

Almost all chest blunders, you realize you've blundered instantly. You can think for 20 minutes, make your move, you know instantly you've blundered. Because there's not that surfacing, right? But then you can learn to just do the surfacing before making the actual move. It's true with human decision-making in general. Right, we realize the screw-up right as we complete it.

Almost all chest blunders, you realize you've blundered instantly. You can think for 20 minutes, make your move, you know instantly you've blundered. Because there's not that surfacing, right? But then you can learn to just do the surfacing before making the actual move. It's true with human decision-making in general. Right, we realize the screw-up right as we complete it.

Yeah, because we're caught up in all of our bullshit. We make the move, and then we've left our thought process, and like, oh, that was just absurd, right? And we see it.

Yeah, because we're caught up in all of our bullshit. We make the move, and then we've left our thought process, and like, oh, that was just absurd, right? And we see it.

I mean, you think about the heartbreaking literature, you know, studies in how people who have jumped off a bridge relate to it the moment after they've jumped off the bridge, those who have survived, right, the interviews afterwards. Yeah, they report wishing they hadn't jumped. Right.

I mean, you think about the heartbreaking literature, you know, studies in how people who have jumped off a bridge relate to it the moment after they've jumped off the bridge, those who have survived, right, the interviews afterwards. Yeah, they report wishing they hadn't jumped. Right.

And so from a very young age, not taking on my weaknesses was outside of my conceptual scheme. which is a really interesting thing to grow up with. And it's in many ways like lay the foundation for a lot of what I've done since. And there are lots of things about that upbringing, which could be unhealthy. Being in the public eye.

And so from a very young age, not taking on my weaknesses was outside of my conceptual scheme. which is a really interesting thing to grow up with. And it's in many ways like lay the foundation for a lot of what I've done since. And there are lots of things about that upbringing, which could be unhealthy. Being in the public eye.

It's interesting. So I have this term I use called firewalking, which for me what it means is cultivating the ability to learn from experiences one doesn't have with the same somatic intensity that one learns from really intense experiences that we have.

It's interesting. So I have this term I use called firewalking, which for me what it means is cultivating the ability to learn from experiences one doesn't have with the same somatic intensity that one learns from really intense experiences that we have.

So for example, let's just say you're a jiu-jitsu fighter and you overextend your arm and you're in a world championship and you get your arm broken. or your shoulder ripped off or something. So you've lost the world championship and you got a shattered arm. You're not gonna overextend your arm that way again. You've learned that that lesson is burned in.

So for example, let's just say you're a jiu-jitsu fighter and you overextend your arm and you're in a world championship and you get your arm broken. or your shoulder ripped off or something. So you've lost the world championship and you got a shattered arm. You're not gonna overextend your arm that way again. You've learned that that lesson is burned in.

Yeah. Super. Yeah. And I've never been on social media in any way, which has been a choice. Yeah. So when I was 11, the book Searching for Robbie Fisher came out. And then when I was 15, the movie came out. And at that point, I was completely in love with chess. It was my first love. I was an unobstructed learner. I loved competition.

Yeah. Super. Yeah. And I've never been on social media in any way, which has been a choice. Yeah. So when I was 11, the book Searching for Robbie Fisher came out. And then when I was 15, the movie came out. And at that point, I was completely in love with chess. It was my first love. I was an unobstructed learner. I loved competition.

But like, if you're watching a jiu-jitsu fight and someone overextends their arm and gets armbarred and then taps out, it's very, very different experience. How can we cultivate the ability to study other people's like worst, most heartbreaking blunders, worst moments, et cetera, and learn from that with the same somatic intensity that they learned from it, right? So much of that is physiological.

But like, if you're watching a jiu-jitsu fight and someone overextends their arm and gets armbarred and then taps out, it's very, very different experience. How can we cultivate the ability to study other people's like worst, most heartbreaking blunders, worst moments, et cetera, and learn from that with the same somatic intensity that they learned from it, right? So much of that is physiological.

So I spent a lot of time doing biofeedback and a lot of time doing visualization practices and doing very intense visualization practices and many, many years working with triggers for my own psychology and physiology so that I can get my physiology primed to have an intense learning experience while studying something that might otherwise just feel intellectual.

So I spent a lot of time doing biofeedback and a lot of time doing visualization practices and doing very intense visualization practices and many, many years working with triggers for my own psychology and physiology so that I can get my physiology primed to have an intense learning experience while studying something that might otherwise just feel intellectual.

And then combining that with my own experience of things. And it's such a, I mean, if we can 100x or 1,000x or 10,000x our learning curve by being able to learn from other things with the same intensity that we can learn from our own things, but people don't harness that.

And then combining that with my own experience of things. And it's such a, I mean, if we can 100x or 1,000x or 10,000x our learning curve by being able to learn from other things with the same intensity that we can learn from our own things, but people don't harness that.

I think people are really amazingly unreflective about the training process. I told you, I haven't written a book since The Art of Learning, and I'm a couple years into this beautiful process of writing my next book, which is going to be called, I think, The Art of Training, which is really what I've been cultivating for the last decades.

I think people are really amazingly unreflective about the training process. I told you, I haven't written a book since The Art of Learning, and I'm a couple years into this beautiful process of writing my next book, which is going to be called, I think, The Art of Training, which is really what I've been cultivating for the last decades.

And I'm deconstructing my, you know, my approach to training in mental and physical disciplines. And it's really interesting to go through that process myself. Like, what do I do? What have I done? And what have I helped others do? And it's interesting that the art of learning kind of was a birthing process. That's what it felt like to me. I took notes to it for five years.

And I'm deconstructing my, you know, my approach to training in mental and physical disciplines. And it's really interesting to go through that process myself. Like, what do I do? What have I done? And what have I helped others do? And it's interesting that the art of learning kind of was a birthing process. That's what it felt like to me. I took notes to it for five years.

And then after 2004 Worlds, I wrote it in nine months. It just kind of came out of me. And I'm kind of in that process now with this. So it feels really organic and intrinsic, the creative process. And I don't know.

And then after 2004 Worlds, I wrote it in nine months. It just kind of came out of me. And I'm kind of in that process now with this. So it feels really organic and intrinsic, the creative process. And I don't know.

It's very interesting when you talk to people who are really playing at elite levels of different fields or who are just below full self-expression or they're just on the edge of virtuosity but not quite there. And you start to deconstruct what they do. There's so much low-hanging fruit that they can do. Why? I don't know. I think in many ways people – I mean there's lots of reasons.

It's very interesting when you talk to people who are really playing at elite levels of different fields or who are just below full self-expression or they're just on the edge of virtuosity but not quite there. And you start to deconstruct what they do. There's so much low-hanging fruit that they can do. Why? I don't know. I think in many ways people – I mean there's lots of reasons.

I think of one thing, people who are very talented in arts don't have to be so deliberate about their training often to reach a certain level. Often people have other people building their training process and they're not reflective about their own training process because they have big teams of coaches who are creating it for them.

I think of one thing, people who are very talented in arts don't have to be so deliberate about their training often to reach a certain level. Often people have other people building their training process and they're not reflective about their own training process because they have big teams of coaches who are creating it for them.

People haven't cultivated the art of deconstruction, which is an art that's very important. People haven't cultivated the art of loving training, which is a hugely important meta skill to learn. People haven't taken on all of the skills around physiological triggers, around changing one's physiological state at will. People haven't practiced visualization very intensely. There are all of these...

People haven't cultivated the art of deconstruction, which is an art that's very important. People haven't cultivated the art of loving training, which is a hugely important meta skill to learn. People haven't taken on all of the skills around physiological triggers, around changing one's physiological state at will. People haven't practiced visualization very intensely. There are all of these...

A lot of my opponents were trying to control the game, memorize openings, figure out how to win by force. But I love the battle. My style was to create chaos, like in Washington Square Park. Find hidden harmonies in chaos. And I love that. So As the game went on and they moved away from their opening preparation and controlling things, we moved into my power zone, which was the fight.

A lot of my opponents were trying to control the game, memorize openings, figure out how to win by force. But I love the battle. My style was to create chaos, like in Washington Square Park. Find hidden harmonies in chaos. And I love that. So As the game went on and they moved away from their opening preparation and controlling things, we moved into my power zone, which was the fight.

these skills that we can put together in order to train at a world-class level. But it takes patience and creativity and not just being subject to whatever else does, but being able to look expansively at everything.

these skills that we can put together in order to train at a world-class level. But it takes patience and creativity and not just being subject to whatever else does, but being able to look expansively at everything.

I love the fight. And then my chess life in many ways was free-flowing. And then the movie came out when I was 15. And then you can imagine what that was like as a young teenager, all the attention, the media, cameras everywhere, groupies, all the temptations. And I didn't ask for it. And it was a really, it was an alienating period for me relative to chess.

I love the fight. And then my chess life in many ways was free-flowing. And then the movie came out when I was 15. And then you can imagine what that was like as a young teenager, all the attention, the media, cameras everywhere, groupies, all the temptations. And I didn't ask for it. And it was a really, it was an alienating period for me relative to chess.

Many ways my life is built around creating that space. And it's interesting, when I was playing chess, I experimented with studying chess from everywhere between 45 minutes a day to 16 hours a day to see where the sweet spot was. And what I came to was about four and a half hours a day. But that four and a half hours a day was like a 10 out of 10, like fucking just on fire.

Many ways my life is built around creating that space. And it's interesting, when I was playing chess, I experimented with studying chess from everywhere between 45 minutes a day to 16 hours a day to see where the sweet spot was. And what I came to was about four and a half hours a day. But that four and a half hours a day was like a 10 out of 10, like fucking just on fire.

And then the rest of the day became about cultivating those four and a half hours. And my life today has that kind of rhythm as well. And, you know, training, like I've spent many years working with people who are just brilliant in the investment space has been a really interesting way because it's a great laboratory because people are very driven. They want to, they're all in, they're motivated.

And then the rest of the day became about cultivating those four and a half hours. And my life today has that kind of rhythm as well. And, you know, training, like I've spent many years working with people who are just brilliant in the investment space has been a really interesting way because it's a great laboratory because people are very driven. They want to, they're all in, they're motivated.

they'll take themselves on and it's a great place for me to over the last couple decades to like refine the art of training because I don't like solving for motivation that's one thing and I think part of that relates to that quirky dynamic from when I was seven that I described of always being the target and so never having Like not taking on my weaknesses was outside of my conceptual scheme.

they'll take themselves on and it's a great place for me to over the last couple decades to like refine the art of training because I don't like solving for motivation that's one thing and I think part of that relates to that quirky dynamic from when I was seven that I described of always being the target and so never having Like not taking on my weaknesses was outside of my conceptual scheme.

And so in many ways, I don't – I haven't really had to struggle with motivation myself for better or worse. And I love working with people, partnering with people who are all in, who want to take themselves on. I don't love having to motivate people. And so a great laboratory for me is with people who have all sorts of problems, who might be obstructed but who are all in.

And so in many ways, I don't – I haven't really had to struggle with motivation myself for better or worse. And I love working with people, partnering with people who are all in, who want to take themselves on. I don't love having to motivate people. And so a great laboratory for me is with people who have all sorts of problems, who might be obstructed but who are all in.

And, like, you're working with world-class investors, and, you know, they're grinding themselves out 14, 15, 16 hours a day. Doing less is a huge part of doing much more. And you start to see, like, they might be at, like, if you think about a 10 out of 10 as being, like, in terms of, like, when they're at their very best creatively, they could slip from, like, a 10 to a 2 and not even notice.

And, like, you're working with world-class investors, and, you know, they're grinding themselves out 14, 15, 16 hours a day. Doing less is a huge part of doing much more. And you start to see, like, they might be at, like, if you think about a 10 out of 10 as being, like, in terms of, like, when they're at their very best creatively, they could slip from, like, a 10 to a 2 and not even notice.

Right? And then you begin to cultivate an awareness of where one is in one's creative spectrum, right? And then you start to cultivate the art of stress and recovery and like amping oneself up and then releasing. And you see that the ability to turn it on is directly connected to the ability to turn it off, as you know.

Right? And then you begin to cultivate an awareness of where one is in one's creative spectrum, right? And then you start to cultivate the art of stress and recovery and like amping oneself up and then releasing. And you see that the ability to turn it on is directly connected to the ability to turn it off, as you know.

If you walk into a fight gym and you study a bunch of fighters in the mats, one great read you can make is looking at the depth of physiological relaxation when the guys aren't fighting, and you'll see who the highest level fighters are. The best guys, man, they can turn it on with wild intensity, but their bodies are so mellow. When they're not going. And then men. They're so efficient.

If you walk into a fight gym and you study a bunch of fighters in the mats, one great read you can make is looking at the depth of physiological relaxation when the guys aren't fighting, and you'll see who the highest level fighters are. The best guys, man, they can turn it on with wild intensity, but their bodies are so mellow. When they're not going. And then men. They're so efficient.

It's so – that oscillation, that range is so huge, right? But people don't cultivate the art of turning it off in order to learn how to turn it on. For many, many years, decades, I've been practicing what I call now the MIQ process, most important question process. And the essence of it is – it's what I came to as the –

It's so – that oscillation, that range is so huge, right? But people don't cultivate the art of turning it off in order to learn how to turn it on. For many, many years, decades, I've been practicing what I call now the MIQ process, most important question process. And the essence of it is – it's what I came to as the –

Most potent way so far that I've found to train analysts or thinkers in mental arenas, you're training people in the art of discovering what matters most. If you talk to like a great chess player actually looks at less than a lower level chess player, but they look at the right direction.

Most potent way so far that I've found to train analysts or thinkers in mental arenas, you're training people in the art of discovering what matters most. If you talk to like a great chess player actually looks at less than a lower level chess player, but they look at the right direction.

So you might think a great chess player, people often think like, oh yeah, I can calculate 50 moves deep, 100 moves deep. It's all irrelevant. Move two was inaccurate. So it was just all an illusion. The great chess players might look at much less, but they're looking in the most potent directions. The lower level chess players are lost in a sea of complexity.

So you might think a great chess player, people often think like, oh yeah, I can calculate 50 moves deep, 100 moves deep. It's all irrelevant. Move two was inaccurate. So it was just all an illusion. The great chess players might look at much less, but they're looking in the most potent directions. The lower level chess players are lost in a sea of complexity.

And around the same time I started training with a Russian chess trainer who started urging me to move away from my self-expression as a chess player and to study the players who were the opposite of me. attacking player, aggressive. I played kind of in the style, not at a level, but in the style of like Bobby Fischer or Gary Kasparov or Mikhail Tal, world champions who were like hot-blooded.

And around the same time I started training with a Russian chess trainer who started urging me to move away from my self-expression as a chess player and to study the players who were the opposite of me. attacking player, aggressive. I played kind of in the style, not at a level, but in the style of like Bobby Fischer or Gary Kasparov or Mikhail Tal, world champions who were like hot-blooded.

So if you're working with, let's say, a scientist or an investor or whatever, them straining their mind for what is the most important question, ideally to begin the practice toward the end of their workday with like a recovery period with full intensity in a peak performance state, stretch one's mind for what matters most and then release it. Release the workday completely.

So if you're working with, let's say, a scientist or an investor or whatever, them straining their mind for what is the most important question, ideally to begin the practice toward the end of their workday with like a recovery period with full intensity in a peak performance state, stretch one's mind for what matters most and then release it. Release the workday completely.

Don't work all night grinding yourself out at a low level. And then first thing in the morning, waking up, pre-input, return one's mind to the critical question and brainstorm on it. It's very powerful because you're opening up the, you're systematically opening the channel between the conscious and the unconscious mind.

Don't work all night grinding yourself out at a low level. And then first thing in the morning, waking up, pre-input, return one's mind to the critical question and brainstorm on it. It's very powerful because you're opening up the, you're systematically opening the channel between the conscious and the unconscious mind.

You're feeding critical questions to the unconscious, which is processing overnight. And I know you know all this. The consistency with which you come up with an insight in the morning is incredible. Interestingly, and you'll probably know why much more than me,

You're feeding critical questions to the unconscious, which is processing overnight. And I know you know all this. The consistency with which you come up with an insight in the morning is incredible. Interestingly, and you'll probably know why much more than me,

improved dreamer call often happens simultaneously when one starts to have more and more insights about the MIQ in the morning, which is fascinating. Then over time, you can have micro manifestation of this throughout the day before going for a workout, before taking a walk, before taking a break, before taking a piss.

improved dreamer call often happens simultaneously when one starts to have more and more insights about the MIQ in the morning, which is fascinating. Then over time, you can have micro manifestation of this throughout the day before going for a workout, before taking a walk, before taking a break, before taking a piss.

Instead of going, when you're gonna go to the bathroom in the day, instead of like checking your phone while taking a piss, you pose yourself at MIQ, you release it. You do not do anything but piss in the bathroom and breathe and then return to the question and you'll have an insight, right?

Instead of going, when you're gonna go to the bathroom in the day, instead of like checking your phone while taking a piss, you pose yourself at MIQ, you release it. You do not do anything but piss in the bathroom and breathe and then return to the question and you'll have an insight, right?

So you're learning to just oscillate between the conscious and unconscious states and you're opening up that channel and you're practicing stress and recovery. And then your physiological workouts are also stress and recovery all the time. So you're building that theme in everything that you do.

So you're learning to just oscillate between the conscious and unconscious states and you're opening up that channel and you're practicing stress and recovery. And then your physiological workouts are also stress and recovery all the time. So you're building that theme in everything that you do.

And you realize that like when you're at your very best for four or five hours a day, you're doing multiples of the work that you're doing if you're just grinding yourself at, you know, what I've called in the past a simmering six or whatever at, you know, for 15 or 16 hours a day. And so people can do so much more in less time. And my lifestyle is based on that.

And you realize that like when you're at your very best for four or five hours a day, you're doing multiples of the work that you're doing if you're just grinding yourself at, you know, what I've called in the past a simmering six or whatever at, you know, for 15 or 16 hours a day. And so people can do so much more in less time. And my lifestyle is based on that.

You know, I'm training very intensely physically and I'm doing really intense mental work and I oscillate between them. in beautiful ways. And I have a lot of empty space for reflection, for meditation, for zoning my mind on what matters most. It's about quality, not quantity. But it's so interesting how we live in this culture where just quantity is just consuming everyone.

You know, I'm training very intensely physically and I'm doing really intense mental work and I oscillate between them. in beautiful ways. And I have a lot of empty space for reflection, for meditation, for zoning my mind on what matters most. It's about quality, not quantity. But it's so interesting how we live in this culture where just quantity is just consuming everyone.

And I was being urged to study the more cold-blooded, prophylactic side of chess, Petrosian, Karpov, more conservative defensive players. So I was being told, instead of saying like, what does Josh feel here? What would Karpov play here? Who's the opposite of me?

And I was being urged to study the more cold-blooded, prophylactic side of chess, Petrosian, Karpov, more conservative defensive players. So I was being told, instead of saying like, what does Josh feel here? What would Karpov play here? Who's the opposite of me?

And so the combination of that public eye and then the movement away from my self-expression led to a period of obstructedness and self-consciousness. And an interesting theme we could talk about at one point is that passage from a pre-conscious to a post-conscious competitor. In many ways, I went from that freedom of pre-conscious competition into the tunnel of existential crisis.

And so the combination of that public eye and then the movement away from my self-expression led to a period of obstructedness and self-consciousness. And an interesting theme we could talk about at one point is that passage from a pre-conscious to a post-conscious competitor. In many ways, I went from that freedom of pre-conscious competition into the tunnel of existential crisis.

Yeah, it was interesting. When I wrote The Art of Learning, it was in many ways cathartic for me because there were parts of my life that I had felt like I had let myself down. Like there were parts, like my chess life I moved away from and like there were certain moments of it where I felt like I hadn't fully expressed my potential. And I just wrote them all. I just shared it all.

Yeah, it was interesting. When I wrote The Art of Learning, it was in many ways cathartic for me because there were parts of my life that I had felt like I had let myself down. Like there were parts, like my chess life I moved away from and like there were certain moments of it where I felt like I hadn't fully expressed my potential. And I just wrote them all. I just shared it all.

And it was so beautiful. It was so cathartic. When I think about leadership, I think that it's so important to, like leading with vulnerability is such an exquisite, I spent, Joe Mazzulla and I spent the day a couple days ago with Sean McVay, who's the head coach of the LA Rams, who just a few days after this big, the big loss against the Eagles, and we had this

And it was so beautiful. It was so cathartic. When I think about leadership, I think that it's so important to, like leading with vulnerability is such an exquisite, I spent, Joe Mazzulla and I spent the day a couple days ago with Sean McVay, who's the head coach of the LA Rams, who just a few days after this big, the big loss against the Eagles, and we had this

We actually ended up watching the tape. It was his first watching of the tape of this heartbreaking playoff loss he had and watching him process it. And, you know, he's such a great leader. Both Joe and Sean, like, lead. They both take themselves on more intensely than anything, but they lead with vulnerability. Like, they go up against their stains.

We actually ended up watching the tape. It was his first watching of the tape of this heartbreaking playoff loss he had and watching him process it. And, you know, he's such a great leader. Both Joe and Sean, like, lead. They both take themselves on more intensely than anything, but they lead with vulnerability. Like, they go up against their stains.

And like being authentic there as opposed to being a leader or a father or a mother or a coach who just keeps it in the pocket as if they're perfect. There's something so inauthentic about that. I think in human relationship and in the cultivation of oneself as an artist, going right at one's weakness. is so powerful.

And like being authentic there as opposed to being a leader or a father or a mother or a coach who just keeps it in the pocket as if they're perfect. There's something so inauthentic about that. I think in human relationship and in the cultivation of oneself as an artist, going right at one's weakness. is so powerful.

Now, of course, there's also the tender balance of how much we should cultivate our strengths and how much we should be spent shoring up our weaknesses. And one of the most important principles which I learned too late in my chess life is that we can take on our weaknesses through the lens of our strengths, right?

Now, of course, there's also the tender balance of how much we should cultivate our strengths and how much we should be spent shoring up our weaknesses. And one of the most important principles which I learned too late in my chess life is that we can take on our weaknesses through the lens of our strengths, right?

Remember this brilliant sage Russian coach, Yuri Razovayev, said to me at one point, you can learn Karpov through Kasparov. His point being, you can learn about the great defensive chess through the great defense of great aggressors like you. As opposed to just studying Karpov and thinking, what should I, what would Karpov do here, which was urged to do by other people?

Remember this brilliant sage Russian coach, Yuri Razovayev, said to me at one point, you can learn Karpov through Kasparov. His point being, you can learn about the great defensive chess through the great defense of great aggressors like you. As opposed to just studying Karpov and thinking, what should I, what would Karpov do here, which was urged to do by other people?

like learn defense through offense, right? So it was part of my self-expression. I learned that principle too late for my chess life, but it's manifest everywhere else, right? So while we're cultivating our strength, which I think we should do as a way of life, how do we go up against our stains? But in ways that were not fundamentally It's not shame. I don't relate personally.

like learn defense through offense, right? So it was part of my self-expression. I learned that principle too late for my chess life, but it's manifest everywhere else, right? So while we're cultivating our strength, which I think we should do as a way of life, how do we go up against our stains? But in ways that were not fundamentally It's not shame. I don't relate personally.

That's a word I don't, like shame. It's not shame. It's like when it becomes just like a breath pattern, like we lose, we put ourselves on the line, we lose. We go at it. We study it. We study how. We study about what.

That's a word I don't, like shame. It's not shame. It's like when it becomes just like a breath pattern, like we lose, we put ourselves on the line, we lose. We go at it. We study it. We study how. We study about what.

The other thing that's incredible to me is that when you study your losses, when you go up against what you're calling, like that's a beautiful image, like the shadow of the lighthouse, right? Yeah. The interconnectedness of the technical, the psychological, and the thematic is so powerful in the learning process.

The other thing that's incredible to me is that when you study your losses, when you go up against what you're calling, like that's a beautiful image, like the shadow of the lighthouse, right? Yeah. The interconnectedness of the technical, the psychological, and the thematic is so powerful in the learning process.

And I grappled with it for a lot of years. And when I was 18, when I graduated high school, and during that grappling, I was still the top rated player in the country. I was winning national championships every year. So from the outside, it looked good. But from the inside, I was in turmoil. I was fighting with myself. I had all these demons. And then I left the US.

And I grappled with it for a lot of years. And when I was 18, when I graduated high school, and during that grappling, I was still the top rated player in the country. I was winning national championships every year. So from the outside, it looked good. But from the inside, I was in turmoil. I was fighting with myself. I had all these demons. And then I left the US.

Almost every technical mistake that we make in an art, if we're pushing ourselves to our limits, if we're like, if you and I are like around the same level and we're competing in something where we're about in anything, like any technical mistake I made will have a psychological dimension because I most likely, my technical weakness was

Almost every technical mistake that we make in an art, if we're pushing ourselves to our limits, if we're like, if you and I are like around the same level and we're competing in something where we're about in anything, like any technical mistake I made will have a psychological dimension because I most likely, my technical weakness was

emerged because I was so psychologically pressured that I wasn't able to solve the technical position, right? Or if I make a psychological error, it's often because I was a little technically out of my water. And so it put extra pressure on my psyche that then you were able to exploit, right? And every technical... Mistake is local, right? But there's themes.

emerged because I was so psychologically pressured that I wasn't able to solve the technical position, right? Or if I make a psychological error, it's often because I was a little technically out of my water. And so it put extra pressure on my psyche that then you were able to exploit, right? And every technical... Mistake is local, right? But there's themes.

There's like a theme that houses hundreds of those technical manifestations. So if we are always thinking about the technical, the thematic, the psychological, and we have what I call a six-dimensional introspective process, right? And we're looking at all of these, the interconnectedness of those different parts of the human experience of an art or anything else.

There's like a theme that houses hundreds of those technical manifestations. So if we are always thinking about the technical, the thematic, the psychological, and we have what I call a six-dimensional introspective process, right? And we're looking at all of these, the interconnectedness of those different parts of the human experience of an art or anything else.

then the growth curve is incredibly explosive because we recognize – we make a technical mistake and we learn the theme. We take on the theme that houses that one but also houses dozens of others. And so as we turn that theme into a strength, into a power zone, then that technical mistake goes away but as do the other manifestations of that theme.

then the growth curve is incredibly explosive because we recognize – we make a technical mistake and we learn the theme. We take on the theme that houses that one but also houses dozens of others. And so as we turn that theme into a strength, into a power zone, then that technical mistake goes away but as do the other manifestations of that theme.

And if we're also studying the psychological weakness that allowed that technical weakness to manifest, to like unearth itself, then that psychological dimension becomes something that we take on. And then we're studying thematic interconnectedness as a way of life. Because then that lesson we learned through that chest, like I made a subtle chest mistake, but that connects to my love life.

And if we're also studying the psychological weakness that allowed that technical weakness to manifest, to like unearth itself, then that psychological dimension becomes something that we take on. And then we're studying thematic interconnectedness as a way of life. Because then that lesson we learned through that chest, like I made a subtle chest mistake, but that connects to my love life.

It connects to my fatherhood. It connects to my, like my foiling, my jujitsu, my everything. Because it connects to the theme and it connects to my psychology and it manifests. I don't believe in compartmentalization. I believe in thematic interconnectedness, right? And like the core themes of my life, I would say if I had to boil it down would be love, interconnectedness and receptivity.

It connects to my fatherhood. It connects to my, like my foiling, my jujitsu, my everything. Because it connects to the theme and it connects to my psychology and it manifests. I don't believe in compartmentalization. I believe in thematic interconnectedness, right? And like the core themes of my life, I would say if I had to boil it down would be love, interconnectedness and receptivity.

I only do what I love and I spend time with people who I love and that's how I live. The study of interconnectedness is my way of life in some of the ways I've been describing. And receptivity is what I cultivate every day in my life, in the ocean, with people, with humans. But we always get isolated. We get siloed. Oh, yeah, is this chess mistake? One of the things I've found so confusing...

I only do what I love and I spend time with people who I love and that's how I live. The study of interconnectedness is my way of life in some of the ways I've been describing. And receptivity is what I cultivate every day in my life, in the ocean, with people, with humans. But we always get isolated. We get siloed. Oh, yeah, is this chess mistake? One of the things I've found so confusing...

is why don't more great chess players who try successfully translate their level from chess to other things? Because chess is so hard. And chess is such a relentlessly truth-telling art. If you become a world-class chess player, you're fucking good. Because there's no luck in chess.

is why don't more great chess players who try successfully translate their level from chess to other things? Because chess is so hard. And chess is such a relentlessly truth-telling art. If you become a world-class chess player, you're fucking good. Because there's no luck in chess.

I spent a number of years after high school studying East Asian philosophy, meditating, reflecting. And then my study of chess in those years, and I was deeply in love with chess still, it became much more of an introspective process. I was competing as intensely as ever, but chess became connected to life. And then when I was 19 years old, I started training at the Human Performance Institute.

I spent a number of years after high school studying East Asian philosophy, meditating, reflecting. And then my study of chess in those years, and I was deeply in love with chess still, it became much more of an introspective process. I was competing as intensely as ever, but chess became connected to life. And then when I was 19 years old, I started training at the Human Performance Institute.

I have no identity in being a prodigy. Just to be clear. So I don't relate to that word at all. I mean, that word's been put on me from the outside, but I have, I just don't associate with it. I don't relate to it at all. Because I was, you know, maybe somewhat talented in chess compared to most people.

I have no identity in being a prodigy. Just to be clear. So I don't relate to that word at all. I mean, that word's been put on me from the outside, but I have, I just don't associate with it. I don't relate to it at all. Because I was, you know, maybe somewhat talented in chess compared to most people.

But then very early in my, like, by the time I was like six and something, I was only competing against people who were better than me and kids who were as talented as me. And then on the world stage, kids who are more talented than me. And I couldn't rely on my talent at all. Because, I mean, I had to work my ass off. And I won and I lost and I got my ass kicked.

But then very early in my, like, by the time I was like six and something, I was only competing against people who were better than me and kids who were as talented as me. And then on the world stage, kids who are more talented than me. And I couldn't rely on my talent at all. Because, I mean, I had to work my ass off. And I won and I lost and I got my ass kicked.

And so for me, it was all about the battle and taking myself on. And I think what happens, it's funny, many years ago, I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition and I showed up at this place and all these kids were there and they're all excited to play against me. And then the organizer of it said, my son hasn't lost a chess game in two years. And like, that's all you need to know.

And so for me, it was all about the battle and taking myself on. And I think what happens, it's funny, many years ago, I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition and I showed up at this place and all these kids were there and they're all excited to play against me. And then the organizer of it said, my son hasn't lost a chess game in two years. And like, that's all you need to know.

Because it's just like, that means you're just, and of course he was the one kid who didn't want to play against me, right? Because if you haven't lost a chess game in two years, you're not taking your shit on. You're finding people who you can beat and you're only playing against them. So there's a couple levels to this. Let's dig into it.

Because it's just like, that means you're just, and of course he was the one kid who didn't want to play against me, right? Because if you haven't lost a chess game in two years, you're not taking your shit on. You're finding people who you can beat and you're only playing against them. So there's a couple levels to this. Let's dig into it.

So I think that people who have identity in being a prodigy, develop a brittleness often because they associate their level of mastery with talent, with something innate, with being smarter, more brilliant, more gifted, whatever. And then that is, you think about Carol Dweck's work in entity incremental theories of intelligence, right? That's an entity theory of intelligence.

So I think that people who have identity in being a prodigy, develop a brittleness often because they associate their level of mastery with talent, with something innate, with being smarter, more brilliant, more gifted, whatever. And then that is, you think about Carol Dweck's work in entity incremental theories of intelligence, right? That's an entity theory of intelligence.

So I think there's that, and there's something fundamentally brittle about that. And then what, then one doesn't take risk, One doesn't expose oneself. One associates one's great moments with something ingrained or innate versus the hard work that it took to get there. And there's all sorts of paralyzing dynamics there.

So I think there's that, and there's something fundamentally brittle about that. And then what, then one doesn't take risk, One doesn't expose oneself. One associates one's great moments with something ingrained or innate versus the hard work that it took to get there. And there's all sorts of paralyzing dynamics there.

At the time, it was called LGE, Laird, Groppel, and Etcheberry. It was a performance training, cross-disciplinary performance training center that Jim Laird opened up. And then it became the HBI later on.

At the time, it was called LGE, Laird, Groppel, and Etcheberry. It was a performance training, cross-disciplinary performance training center that Jim Laird opened up. And then it became the HBI later on.

To themselves and to others. That's right. But the lying to oneself is the really interesting part, right? So there's that dimension, right, which you and I have both seen just countless manifestations of. And believe me, like when you're competing against someone who you see has that kind of psychological construction, they're done. You can just break them, right?

To themselves and to others. That's right. But the lying to oneself is the really interesting part, right? So there's that dimension, right, which you and I have both seen just countless manifestations of. And believe me, like when you're competing against someone who you see has that kind of psychological construction, they're done. You can just break them, right?

There's so many chinks in the armor. So there's a brittleness there. Like you can just find where their mind stops in false constructs, where the energy stops, where their body's crimped, right? Like you can just find their connection to the ground and explode through it.

There's so many chinks in the armor. So there's a brittleness there. Like you can just find where their mind stops in false constructs, where the energy stops, where their body's crimped, right? Like you can just find their connection to the ground and explode through it.

in mental and physical disciplines, if someone has that kind of identity in being the more brilliant one, the more gifted one, whatever, they're prey from a competitive perspective, which is ultimately good for them if they expose themselves to it, because then they have to take themselves on.

in mental and physical disciplines, if someone has that kind of identity in being the more brilliant one, the more gifted one, whatever, they're prey from a competitive perspective, which is ultimately good for them if they expose themselves to it, because then they have to take themselves on.

But the dynamic that I was reflecting on in chess players is a little next door to this, which is that I think that if you're learning how to play chess, and let's just say I was teaching you, do you play chess? Trivially. Okay, so let's say I was teaching you to play chess, right? I could teach you to play chess with a language that is chess-specific, right?

But the dynamic that I was reflecting on in chess players is a little next door to this, which is that I think that if you're learning how to play chess, and let's just say I was teaching you, do you play chess? Trivially. Okay, so let's say I was teaching you to play chess, right? I could teach you to play chess with a language that is chess-specific, right?

Or I could teach you chess principles. I could teach you very effectively with chess principles. But I could also teach you just as effectively or maybe somewhat more effectively. But it's to say just as effectively with chess principles that are also life principles. Right? And it's interesting when you watch most chess teachers, they teach in a localized manner.

Or I could teach you chess principles. I could teach you very effectively with chess principles. But I could also teach you just as effectively or maybe somewhat more effectively. But it's to say just as effectively with chess principles that are also life principles. Right? And it's interesting when you watch most chess teachers, they teach in a localized manner.

So people can spend 20 years inside of chess but never break beyond the 64 squares. Or they can, from the age of six or seven on, be learning that principle as it connects to chess, but also seeing how it connects to life.

So people can spend 20 years inside of chess but never break beyond the 64 squares. Or they can, from the age of six or seven on, be learning that principle as it connects to chess, but also seeing how it connects to life.

And I'll never forget the moment that I was working with these performance psychologists and I was at the gym and I was working with nutritionists and I was doing this intense workout and I looked next to me and there was Jim Harbaugh, who was the quarterback at the time of the Colts NFL team. And we got into this amazing dialogue about performance.

And I'll never forget the moment that I was working with these performance psychologists and I was at the gym and I was working with nutritionists and I was doing this intense workout and I looked next to me and there was Jim Harbaugh, who was the quarterback at the time of the Colts NFL team. And we got into this amazing dialogue about performance.

Everything transfers, first of all. Like, I mean, if we're open to it, then everything in chess connects. So when people ask me, do you still play chess? I say metaphorically. I mean, I play chess all the time. I just have not moved a piece in many, many, many years, right? So, but okay, to be specific. So I could give you many examples, but all right.

Everything transfers, first of all. Like, I mean, if we're open to it, then everything in chess connects. So when people ask me, do you still play chess? I say metaphorically. I mean, I play chess all the time. I just have not moved a piece in many, many, many years, right? So, but okay, to be specific. So I could give you many examples, but all right.

So in chess, there's a bishop and there's a knight, right? They're both worth about three pawns. Now I can teach you, okay, so the knight moves like an L and can jump over pieces. The bishop moves diagonally and is stuck on one color for its whole life. They're both worth about three pawns.

So in chess, there's a bishop and there's a knight, right? They're both worth about three pawns. Now I can teach you, okay, so the knight moves like an L and can jump over pieces. The bishop moves diagonally and is stuck on one color for its whole life. They're both worth about three pawns.

But knights are, and I can just say to you, but like knights are a little bit better in closed positions because they can jump over things. Bishops are a little better if the pawns, if your pawns are on the opposite color from them, right? But you should also know that rooks and bishops are more, The bishops and knights are about the same.

But knights are, and I can just say to you, but like knights are a little bit better in closed positions because they can jump over things. Bishops are a little better if the pawns, if your pawns are on the opposite color from them, right? But you should also know that rooks and bishops are more, The bishops and knights are about the same.

Rooks and bishops are much stronger than rooks and knights. And you should also know that queens and knights are a bit stronger than queens and bishops. So the bishop's value is a little bit stronger compared with a rook, and the knight's value is a little bit stronger with a queen, and pawn structure influences them, right?

Rooks and bishops are much stronger than rooks and knights. And you should also know that queens and knights are a bit stronger than queens and bishops. So the bishop's value is a little bit stronger compared with a rook, and the knight's value is a little bit stronger with a queen, and pawn structure influences them, right?

So I could teach you a very simple set of principles through which you can understand how to evaluate bishops and knights, right? And there's many other layers to that, but that's some of it, right? I could also teach you the same thing and be teaching you the nature of relativity. I could be teaching you the nature of interdependence.

So I could teach you a very simple set of principles through which you can understand how to evaluate bishops and knights, right? And there's many other layers to that, but that's some of it, right? I could also teach you the same thing and be teaching you the nature of relativity. I could be teaching you the nature of interdependence.

I could teach you the nature of, I could teach you the pawn structure play, the way you can play with pawn structure that influences bishops and knights in ways that are chess specific or in ways that just allow you to understand dynamic quality and static quality.

I could teach you the nature of, I could teach you the pawn structure play, the way you can play with pawn structure that influences bishops and knights in ways that are chess specific or in ways that just allow you to understand dynamic quality and static quality.

It's like matchups with humans or in basketball. This team is better than this team. But again, there's some matchups that are hugely favorable. A lot of the inside game of basketball is around which teams thrive against which other teams, even though they might be inferior because of the nature of the construction of the team. And you have networks of those teams.

It's like matchups with humans or in basketball. This team is better than this team. But again, there's some matchups that are hugely favorable. A lot of the inside game of basketball is around which teams thrive against which other teams, even though they might be inferior because of the nature of the construction of the team. And you have networks of those teams.

And how do you deal with lineups? How do you deal with rotation patterns? The inner game of basketball is all based on The same stuff that dictates the bishop and the knight and the rook and the queen and how they influence it, right? It's interdependence. Beautiful. It's relativity. It's dynamic quality.

And how do you deal with lineups? How do you deal with rotation patterns? The inner game of basketball is all based on The same stuff that dictates the bishop and the knight and the rook and the queen and how they influence it, right? It's interdependence. Beautiful. It's relativity. It's dynamic quality.

And it was a real eye-opening moment for me because I realized that we spoke the same language. I was like, holy shit, this guy's an NFL quarterback, and I'm this crazy chess player, but we're doing the same thing. And it was this crystallization moment where I realized that all of these arts are fundamentally connected at the highest levels. And what we're doing is much more similar.

And it was a real eye-opening moment for me because I realized that we spoke the same language. I was like, holy shit, this guy's an NFL quarterback, and I'm this crazy chess player, but we're doing the same thing. And it was this crystallization moment where I realized that all of these arts are fundamentally connected at the highest levels. And what we're doing is much more similar.

And you can think about Robert Persick's work in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Lila around dynamic quality versus static quality. And you can be teaching a student, while you're teaching about rook and bishop and rook and knight or knights and bishops, you can be teaching them about dynamic quality. And then you can expand into the study of the metaphysics of quality.

And you can think about Robert Persick's work in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Lila around dynamic quality versus static quality. And you can be teaching a student, while you're teaching about rook and bishop and rook and knight or knights and bishops, you can be teaching them about dynamic quality. And then you can expand into the study of the metaphysics of quality.

And then you can have a seven-year-old student who's learning chess or a 12-year-old who's learning chess or who's learning about life and philosophy and everything, and you can do it in the same amount of time. But you're trapping a mind inside of 64 squares or you're teaching a mind about life through the 64 squares. And I think so many of the reasons that

And then you can have a seven-year-old student who's learning chess or a 12-year-old who's learning chess or who's learning about life and philosophy and everything, and you can do it in the same amount of time. But you're trapping a mind inside of 64 squares or you're teaching a mind about life through the 64 squares. And I think so many of the reasons that

People who become excellent in one thing can't translate it into other places. It's not will later on in life. They have the will. It's because they didn't learn with universal principles. They didn't study their art with a presence to the importance of interconnectedness, which is a lot of what my life's work is in.

People who become excellent in one thing can't translate it into other places. It's not will later on in life. They have the will. It's because they didn't learn with universal principles. They didn't study their art with a presence to the importance of interconnectedness, which is a lot of what my life's work is in.

I observe that people who are at the pinnacles of different arts are often doing things that are much more similar than people who are in the same art from them, but at lower levels. There's something in that qualitative experience. And then I began studying the principles that connected these things. And then I had this interesting experience.

I observe that people who are at the pinnacles of different arts are often doing things that are much more similar than people who are in the same art from them, but at lower levels. There's something in that qualitative experience. And then I began studying the principles that connected these things. And then I had this interesting experience.

This is a really important theme, and it's a gateway into so much. We can explore a lot through this tunnel. When I use this term pre-conscious and post-conscious artist or competitor, it's my own language, so I'll describe what I mean by it. Well, you think about myself in the chess world, right?

This is a really important theme, and it's a gateway into so much. We can explore a lot through this tunnel. When I use this term pre-conscious and post-conscious artist or competitor, it's my own language, so I'll describe what I mean by it. Well, you think about myself in the chess world, right?

Like one discovers an art, one feels a passion for it, one, it's beautiful, it's joyous, it's self-expressive, I love the battle, I'm winning, I'm losing, I'm having fun, I'm just letting it rip, right? There's a naivete to that. There's a freedom, there's a playfulness, right?

Like one discovers an art, one feels a passion for it, one, it's beautiful, it's joyous, it's self-expressive, I love the battle, I'm winning, I'm losing, I'm having fun, I'm just letting it rip, right? There's a naivete to that. There's a freedom, there's a playfulness, right?

I'm kind of compressing a life into a minute or two, but I... In my early 20s, I ultimately moved away from chess, and I'm happy to talk about why and that journey. And then I moved into the martial arts. My study of East Asian philosophy moved me into the study of Taoism and Tai Chi and then into Tai Chi push-hands. And I had this really interesting experience where...

I'm kind of compressing a life into a minute or two, but I... In my early 20s, I ultimately moved away from chess, and I'm happy to talk about why and that journey. And then I moved into the martial arts. My study of East Asian philosophy moved me into the study of Taoism and Tai Chi and then into Tai Chi push-hands. And I had this really interesting experience where...

There's a lack of complexity, a lack of self-awareness, a lack of awareness of my own mutability, a lack of awareness that I can be shattered or I can die. A lack of awareness of the existential absurdity of the fact that I'm devoting my life to 64 squares and 32 pieces of wood on top of 64 squares. I haven't reflected on the fact that this is ridiculous, right?

There's a lack of complexity, a lack of self-awareness, a lack of awareness of my own mutability, a lack of awareness that I can be shattered or I can die. A lack of awareness of the existential absurdity of the fact that I'm devoting my life to 64 squares and 32 pieces of wood on top of 64 squares. I haven't reflected on the fact that this is ridiculous, right?

Or if you're fighting, like, what am I doing? I'm spending my life in combat. Like, what about love? What about saving the planet? What about everything else? I haven't reflected on the fact that this is just a joke in its absurdity, right? And one's liberated from those kinds of things.

Or if you're fighting, like, what am I doing? I'm spending my life in combat. Like, what about love? What about saving the planet? What about everything else? I haven't reflected on the fact that this is just a joke in its absurdity, right? And one's liberated from those kinds of things.

And then there comes this moment, and for me it was triggered by the movie, by losing that sense of self-expression, by thinking what would someone else do here instead of what's my freedom, my playfulness tell me to do. It can happen when one has a near-death experience. It can happen when one has one's heart broken. It can happen when one...

And then there comes this moment, and for me it was triggered by the movie, by losing that sense of self-expression, by thinking what would someone else do here instead of what's my freedom, my playfulness tell me to do. It can happen when one has a near-death experience. It can happen when one has one's heart broken. It can happen when one...

starts reading existentialist literature and reflecting on the absurdity of things. Or one has a friend who starts pointing out over and over like, this is fucking ridiculous. You're just playing chess. What are you doing? Right?

starts reading existentialist literature and reflecting on the absurdity of things. Or one has a friend who starts pointing out over and over like, this is fucking ridiculous. You're just playing chess. What are you doing? Right?

Or it can happen when one wins the world championship or the NBA finals, because suddenly the thing that you have oriented yourself around your whole life, the goal you had your whole life, you've now accomplished. And now you're on the other side of it. And so suddenly your world has shifted. The things that motivated you no longer motivate you.

Or it can happen when one wins the world championship or the NBA finals, because suddenly the thing that you have oriented yourself around your whole life, the goal you had your whole life, you've now accomplished. And now you're on the other side of it. And so suddenly your world has shifted. The things that motivated you no longer motivate you.

The things that felt so important to you now seem somewhat trivial because you've already accomplished that. Like where's the intrinsic motivation? Where's the deep self-expression, right? You think about... Like as we gain complexity in our psychology, and we can gain that complexity in many different ways, we hit this tunnel, right?

The things that felt so important to you now seem somewhat trivial because you've already accomplished that. Like where's the intrinsic motivation? Where's the deep self-expression, right? You think about... Like as we gain complexity in our psychology, and we can gain that complexity in many different ways, we hit this tunnel, right?

And often when someone becomes self-aware, or when someone becomes less liberated, or like the chains set in, or when one, I guess you say you're an extreme athlete, but you feel invincible. And then suddenly you have a terrible accident. You realize, holy shit, I could actually die. I can break.

And often when someone becomes self-aware, or when someone becomes less liberated, or like the chains set in, or when one, I guess you say you're an extreme athlete, but you feel invincible. And then suddenly you have a terrible accident. You realize, holy shit, I could actually die. I can break.

Then how do you get back to that freedom of taking the wild risks that you've been taking as that extreme athlete with an awareness of the fact that you can die? Like for me, I had, you know, I foil now in the biggest waves that I can find in where I live in Costa Rica. And, you know, you have big hold downs. You're foiling on top of a long mass, which is a carbon mass, which is very sharp.

Then how do you get back to that freedom of taking the wild risks that you've been taking as that extreme athlete with an awareness of the fact that you can die? Like for me, I had, you know, I foil now in the biggest waves that I can find in where I live in Costa Rica. And, you know, you have big hold downs. You're foiling on top of a long mass, which is a carbon mass, which is very sharp.

And then a wing, which is sharp. So you're basically going 40, 45 miles on top of a guillotine. And if you're trying to, you know, you're really cultivating high performance foiling, you're pushing turns really hard. You're breaching wingtips like you can taco and have the thing come right at your head or your neck.

And then a wing, which is sharp. So you're basically going 40, 45 miles on top of a guillotine. And if you're trying to, you know, you're really cultivating high performance foiling, you're pushing turns really hard. You're breaching wingtips like you can taco and have the thing come right at your head or your neck.

Like you can die at any minute if you get something wrong, which is very different from just like foiling straight or e-foiling. We're talking about high-performance training. Like you, by definition, have to be risking these things in order to push the limits of what's possible. And if you're not, you're not at that stretch point, right? But then suddenly like you have a terrible injury.

Like you can die at any minute if you get something wrong, which is very different from just like foiling straight or e-foiling. We're talking about high-performance training. Like you, by definition, have to be risking these things in order to push the limits of what's possible. And if you're not, you're not at that stretch point, right? But then suddenly like you have a terrible injury.

Or let's just say you're – like I drowned on the bottom of a pool yesterday. Um, some 11 years ago, 10, 11 years ago.

Or let's just say you're – like I drowned on the bottom of a pool yesterday. Um, some 11 years ago, 10, 11 years ago.

Yeah. It was a, I was doing, um, hypoxic breath work. I did not realize, which maybe if I'd, you could have taught me if I'd known you that carbon dioxide will gives you the urge to breathe. I didn't realize that. So I had all the CO2 flushed out of my body. I felt blissful. I was swimming underwater. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a, I was doing, um, hypoxic breath work. I did not realize, which maybe if I'd, you could have taught me if I'd known you that carbon dioxide will gives you the urge to breathe. I didn't realize that. So I had all the CO2 flushed out of my body. I felt blissful. I was swimming underwater. Yeah.

At that point, the introspective process of studying chess had become much more about studying life. And so I was in an exploration of interconnectedness. But I was not playing chess anymore, and I was all in on the martial arts. But I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition, which I did every year for many years, for Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy Research.

At that point, the introspective process of studying chess had become much more about studying life. And so I was in an exploration of interconnectedness. But I was not playing chess anymore, and I was all in on the martial arts. But I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition, which I did every year for many years, for Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy Research.

Or drive a car. Don't do it while driving a car.

Or drive a car. Don't do it while driving a car.

I know people who have done that. Right. Actually, rather exceptional people who I know.

I know people who have done that. Right. Actually, rather exceptional people who I know.

And shallow water blackout usually happens to very high-level athletes, Navy SEALs, right? Because they're training at pushing their limits. They're learning to suppress the urge to breathe. And if you're flushing CO2, you're learning, you're training yourself not to feel it. And I've been a free diver my whole life. I grew up free diving, spearfishing in the Southern Bahamas.

And shallow water blackout usually happens to very high-level athletes, Navy SEALs, right? Because they're training at pushing their limits. They're learning to suppress the urge to breathe. And if you're flushing CO2, you're learning, you're training yourself not to feel it. And I've been a free diver my whole life. I grew up free diving, spearfishing in the Southern Bahamas.

But I wasn't doing hypoxic breath work while free diving. Here I was at the NYU pool. I drowned. I was in the bottom of the pool for four and a half minutes after blacking out.

But I wasn't doing hypoxic breath work while free diving. Here I was at the NYU pool. I drowned. I was in the bottom of the pool for four and a half minutes after blacking out.

Yeah. I should have, which I know because- You should be dead. I should be dead or brain damaged in a big way. Yeah. I know the time it was because there was an old man who I knew who was in the locker room who saw me in the bottom of the pool lying there and he timed his laps and he did four laps and he said, after the third one, I'm gonna check on him.

Yeah. I should have, which I know because- You should be dead. I should be dead or brain damaged in a big way. Yeah. I know the time it was because there was an old man who I knew who was in the locker room who saw me in the bottom of the pool lying there and he timed his laps and he did four laps and he said, after the third one, I'm gonna check on him.

And then he did his fourth lap, pulled me and his laps were a little bit over a minute. And I was unconscious for 25 minutes. I was totally blue, except my face was blown out red, my eyes, my body, my training, almost killed me and also saved me. My body handled it really well. I had no water in my lungs. I spent that night in the hospital, of course.

And then he did his fourth lap, pulled me and his laps were a little bit over a minute. And I was unconscious for 25 minutes. I was totally blue, except my face was blown out red, my eyes, my body, my training, almost killed me and also saved me. My body handled it really well. I had no water in my lungs. I spent that night in the hospital, of course.

And I was like testing, I remember doing, like remembering old chest variations, like testing my mind in any way, like was I ruined? And I somehow survived and I survived intact.

And I was like testing, I remember doing, like remembering old chest variations, like testing my mind in any way, like was I ruined? And I somehow survived and I survived intact.

And that's one of those moments, shattering moments, which I am ultimately grateful for, because it's what catalyzed me to, I emerged with more of a commitment and I've had this kind of commitment in my life for most, for many years, but a more intense commitment to live life as truly and beautifully and authentically as conceivable.

And that's one of those moments, shattering moments, which I am ultimately grateful for, because it's what catalyzed me to, I emerged with more of a commitment and I've had this kind of commitment in my life for most, for many years, but a more intense commitment to live life as truly and beautifully and authentically as conceivable.

And then soon after we moved to the jungle and we lived life, we live now, which is awesome for my family. But I bring that up now, because imagine how one relates to big wave surfing or big wave foiling pre and post drowning. One has to have an integrated sense for one's own mortality versus being naive to the fact that it can happen.

And then soon after we moved to the jungle and we lived life, we live now, which is awesome for my family. But I bring that up now, because imagine how one relates to big wave surfing or big wave foiling pre and post drowning. One has to have an integrated sense for one's own mortality versus being naive to the fact that it can happen.

So that tunnel from the pre-conscious to the post-conscious performer is a passage where during that passage, most people are locked up. They underperform where they were when they were more naive. And I don't personally relate to it as a return to the preconscious state.

So that tunnel from the pre-conscious to the post-conscious performer is a passage where during that passage, most people are locked up. They underperform where they were when they were more naive. And I don't personally relate to it as a return to the preconscious state.

I relate to it as an integration of one's mortality, of the existential absurdity, into one's consciousness, and then a discovery of a deeper sense of liberation, of freedom, but that is not in denial of what we've learned in that tunnel or what triggered that tunnel, but that is more complex than

I relate to it as an integration of one's mortality, of the existential absurdity, into one's consciousness, and then a discovery of a deeper sense of liberation, of freedom, but that is not in denial of what we've learned in that tunnel or what triggered that tunnel, but that is more complex than

I feel that way. And I think it's also pretty... You can't go back. You can't pretend you're not... Dying is impossible. You can't pretend that you're unbreakable. We are breakable. Some people do it without being really reflective. But I think that if you ask anyone who really...

I feel that way. And I think it's also pretty... You can't go back. You can't pretend you're not... Dying is impossible. You can't pretend that you're unbreakable. We are breakable. Some people do it without being really reflective. But I think that if you ask anyone who really...

has been in life and death situations as a way of life for a long time, whether they relate to the idea of fearlessness, if they really reflect on it, they'll say no. Because fearlessness isn't a thing. It's how one works with fear. Usually what locks people up isn't fear. It's the fear of fear. We're afraid of our fear. We're afraid of being afraid.

has been in life and death situations as a way of life for a long time, whether they relate to the idea of fearlessness, if they really reflect on it, they'll say no. Because fearlessness isn't a thing. It's how one works with fear. Usually what locks people up isn't fear. It's the fear of fear. We're afraid of our fear. We're afraid of being afraid.

And I was playing 50 chess games at once. And I was walking around this big square playing against 50 young up and coming strong players at the same time. And I realized at one point, I wasn't playing chess. I was moving chess pieces, but I was thinking in Tai Chi language. I was feeling flow, feeling space left behind, riding energetic waves of the game.

And I was playing 50 chess games at once. And I was walking around this big square playing against 50 young up and coming strong players at the same time. And I realized at one point, I wasn't playing chess. I was moving chess pieces, but I was thinking in Tai Chi language. I was feeling flow, feeling space left behind, riding energetic waves of the game.

But like you ask a great Navy SEAL, they work with their fear. You ask like a great MMA fighter, they're not without fear. Of course they have fear. If they don't have fear, they have a problem, right? And there are some examples of people who might be wired a little bit differently, right?

But like you ask a great Navy SEAL, they work with their fear. You ask like a great MMA fighter, they're not without fear. Of course they have fear. If they don't have fear, they have a problem, right? And there are some examples of people who might be wired a little bit differently, right?

But the integration of the more complex worldview into one's liberation is the post-conscious performer, right? And it can play in lots of ways, right? It can also play. And so like one thing that when you think about a sports team that has accomplished like everyone's dreams, right? and now we want to win a championship again.

But the integration of the more complex worldview into one's liberation is the post-conscious performer, right? And it can play in lots of ways, right? It can also play. And so like one thing that when you think about a sports team that has accomplished like everyone's dreams, right? and now we want to win a championship again.

We can't go back to what worked before because they're different men, right? One needs to find a different kind of mission, a different kinds of internal relationship to the mission, a different kind of freedom.

We can't go back to what worked before because they're different men, right? One needs to find a different kind of mission, a different kinds of internal relationship to the mission, a different kind of freedom.

I don't think we ever want to hold on to, like that's static. Like we need to, we want to, like you think about predator and prey dynamics in the world or in competition or in anything. Like you want to be competing with, Now, there's a fusion of the predator and prey. You want to have the awareness that prey has, but one wants to be playing to win, not to lose.

I don't think we ever want to hold on to, like that's static. Like we need to, we want to, like you think about predator and prey dynamics in the world or in competition or in anything. Like you want to be competing with, Now, there's a fusion of the predator and prey. You want to have the awareness that prey has, but one wants to be playing to win, not to lose.

The moment we're trying to hold on to something we already have, we're falling into the static quality, right? Or you think about, for example, brilliant investors, right? They'll have success. Then they'll try to figure out how to replicate their success. So they'll build mental models, frameworks to replicate their success. And those become grooves, like neural pathways.

The moment we're trying to hold on to something we already have, we're falling into the static quality, right? Or you think about, for example, brilliant investors, right? They'll have success. Then they'll try to figure out how to replicate their success. So they'll build mental models, frameworks to replicate their success. And those become grooves, like neural pathways.

So then they follow those grooves, but then the grooves become a rut and the water stops. And they get stuck in an old, like, so they succeeded. They built mental models. They recreated the patterns. It was beautiful. But then it got static. And then it's that stuck energy. It doesn't apply to the world because the world's changing.

So then they follow those grooves, but then the grooves become a rut and the water stops. And they get stuck in an old, like, so they succeeded. They built mental models. They recreated the patterns. It was beautiful. But then it got static. And then it's that stuck energy. It doesn't apply to the world because the world's changing.

And what actually made them succeed was dynamic quality, was being at what Robert Persick would call the front of the freight train, driving through space-time, pre-intellectual consciousness, right? And then they're trying to recreate it. They're getting too stuck in things and they create mental models that are stale. And then other people replicate those stale mental models.

And what actually made them succeed was dynamic quality, was being at what Robert Persick would call the front of the freight train, driving through space-time, pre-intellectual consciousness, right? And then they're trying to recreate it. They're getting too stuck in things and they create mental models that are stale. And then other people replicate those stale mental models.

And you have huge industries that emerge from static quality later on top of static quality, which is most of humanity, right? So I think that as a world-class competitor who's trying to win after winning, one needs to have the same dynamic mindset one had when one was hunting for it in the first place. Rediscovery. Marcelo Garcia, one of my most... One of my favorite moments of Marcelo was...

And you have huge industries that emerge from static quality later on top of static quality, which is most of humanity, right? So I think that as a world-class competitor who's trying to win after winning, one needs to have the same dynamic mindset one had when one was hunting for it in the first place. Rediscovery. Marcelo Garcia, one of my most... One of my favorite moments of Marcelo was...

So we were – so Marcelo, nine-time world champion in the grappling arts, five-time ADCC – five-time Brazilian jiu-jitsu, four-time ADCC. ADCC is when Abu Dhabi Combat Championship, when all the different grappling arts come together. It happens every two years. So Russian sambo, judo, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, right?

So we were – so Marcelo, nine-time world champion in the grappling arts, five-time ADCC – five-time Brazilian jiu-jitsu, four-time ADCC. ADCC is when Abu Dhabi Combat Championship, when all the different grappling arts come together. It happens every two years. So Russian sambo, judo, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, right?

And it was like I was winning all these chess games but I hadn't played chess in a long time and I wasn't playing chess. And it became like and then my study of Tai Chi became extremely accelerated and then I started winning competing and then I won in the fighting application and I started winning national championships and then

And it was like I was winning all these chess games but I hadn't played chess in a long time and I wasn't playing chess. And it became like and then my study of Tai Chi became extremely accelerated and then I started winning competing and then I won in the fighting application and I started winning national championships and then

Everything comes together and you see who's the strongest grappler in all the different arts. He's known by many as the greatest pound-for-pound grappler to ever live. Just for context, Marcelo is one of my dearest friends. We own a school together in New York. We trained together for a very, very long time. He's in an amazing moment right now.

Everything comes together and you see who's the strongest grappler in all the different arts. He's known by many as the greatest pound-for-pound grappler to ever live. Just for context, Marcelo is one of my dearest friends. We own a school together in New York. We trained together for a very, very long time. He's in an amazing moment right now.

He and his wife, Tachi, who's also one of my dearest friends, had a terrible tragedy years ago. They lost a baby. And just devastating period. And then Marcelo had cancer. He had stomach cancer. He had surgery, eight rounds of chemotherapy. He hasn't competed in 13 years and he's actually competing tomorrow for the first time in, I think it's 13 years, in Bangkok.

He and his wife, Tachi, who's also one of my dearest friends, had a terrible tragedy years ago. They lost a baby. And just devastating period. And then Marcelo had cancer. He had stomach cancer. He had surgery, eight rounds of chemotherapy. He hasn't competed in 13 years and he's actually competing tomorrow for the first time in, I think it's 13 years, in Bangkok.

It was gonna be in Denver and I was gonna fly there between the Lakers and the Mavs games, but it's in Bangkok, so I can't get there. But he's weighed in, he's doing great, he's feeling awesome. So the story I'm about to tell is about this epic, beautiful human being who in many ways He's the innovator that led to much of what is modern grappling today.

It was gonna be in Denver and I was gonna fly there between the Lakers and the Mavs games, but it's in Bangkok, so I can't get there. But he's weighed in, he's doing great, he's feeling awesome. So the story I'm about to tell is about this epic, beautiful human being who in many ways He's the innovator that led to much of what is modern grappling today.

So back in, I think it was 2005 and 2007, this story, or maybe 2007, 2009. I think it's 2005 and 2007. Chronology is not a strong point for me in terms of my recollection in general. We were in a training camp. And we were training all the time. He had this innovative repertoire.

So back in, I think it was 2005 and 2007, this story, or maybe 2007, 2009. I think it's 2005 and 2007. Chronology is not a strong point for me in terms of my recollection in general. We were in a training camp. And we were training all the time. He had this innovative repertoire.

He goes into ADCC, dominates it, and it's a very specific repertoire, back-taking repertoire, guillotines, just dominates, blows the grappling world away. For the two years that followed him winning that ADCC, the entire grappling world was studying what he had just done. or a lot of the grappling. We were setting, we were just learning to recreate it.

He goes into ADCC, dominates it, and it's a very specific repertoire, back-taking repertoire, guillotines, just dominates, blows the grappling world away. For the two years that followed him winning that ADCC, the entire grappling world was studying what he had just done. or a lot of the grappling. We were setting, we were just learning to recreate it.

It was so beautiful, innovative, powerful, playing up weight classes, just unbelievable. I was on the mats with Marcelo the next day, the Monday after he fought Sunday. I also want to say, Marcelo never, I never, in all the years I had of training with Marcelo, I never saw him miss a Monday training after winning a major competition on Sunday. Wow. Everyone takes time off.

It was so beautiful, innovative, powerful, playing up weight classes, just unbelievable. I was on the mats with Marcelo the next day, the Monday after he fought Sunday. I also want to say, Marcelo never, I never, in all the years I had of training with Marcelo, I never saw him miss a Monday training after winning a major competition on Sunday. Wow. Everyone takes time off.

And then I began to think about, like, or become more and more deeply involved in the study and the exploration of thematic interconnectedness, which has really become a life's work. And then my martial arts life ended up ending, you know, and taking me all over the world. And I won some world championships.

And then I began to think about, like, or become more and more deeply involved in the study and the exploration of thematic interconnectedness, which has really become a life's work. And then my martial arts life ended up ending, you know, and taking me all over the world. And I won some world championships.

I never saw him miss a Monday. You talk about dynamic quality and humility and a way of life, right? Yeah. The Monday he was on the mats, he shed the entire repertoire. So we just won the world championship. Everyone spent the next two years chasing his quality, which was dynamic. They turned it static. He shed the whole repertoire and created a whole new repertoire.

I never saw him miss a Monday. You talk about dynamic quality and humility and a way of life, right? Yeah. The Monday he was on the mats, he shed the entire repertoire. So we just won the world championship. Everyone spent the next two years chasing his quality, which was dynamic. They turned it static. He shed the whole repertoire and created a whole new repertoire.

And he was playing this omoplotic game, which he then went on the next ADC two years later and won again with this brand new thing. Just shedding the snake skin or shedding the old shell, right? It's such a beautiful example of like pushing one's limits as a way of life, not being stuck in old mental models. right? Breaking new ground as a way of life, dynamic quality. That's what it takes.

And he was playing this omoplotic game, which he then went on the next ADC two years later and won again with this brand new thing. Just shedding the snake skin or shedding the old shell, right? It's such a beautiful example of like pushing one's limits as a way of life, not being stuck in old mental models. right? Breaking new ground as a way of life, dynamic quality. That's what it takes.

Jordan had just an incredible competitive drive, incredible competitive drive. It's very hard to replicate success in an art because one that shouldn't replicate, one should drive to rediscover, right? It's like a recreation of something new, not old, right? I think the impulse once one wins is to do what one did before. But the world changes.

Jordan had just an incredible competitive drive, incredible competitive drive. It's very hard to replicate success in an art because one that shouldn't replicate, one should drive to rediscover, right? It's like a recreation of something new, not old, right? I think the impulse once one wins is to do what one did before. But the world changes.

Like one of the gifts the Celtics have this year is that everyone is targeting us, right? Because we're the champions. Like we won it last year. And so everyone brings like an extra 30% every night, every team. And the NBA is stacked with brilliant athletes.

Like one of the gifts the Celtics have this year is that everyone is targeting us, right? Because we're the champions. Like we won it last year. And so everyone brings like an extra 30% every night, every team. And the NBA is stacked with brilliant athletes.

Even the lower level teams from the outside in are filled with amazing athletes who, if you're the game of the week or the month for them, they bring it all. So all of our weaknesses are being exposed, which is what we want, right? And so you have, there's growing pains. You work through it all.

Even the lower level teams from the outside in are filled with amazing athletes who, if you're the game of the week or the month for them, they bring it all. So all of our weaknesses are being exposed, which is what we want, right? And so you have, there's growing pains. You work through it all.

And so the good thing about the competitive truth-telling world is that our competitors, our rivals, help force us to take our shit on, which makes it very hard to sit in static quality unless we're happy with mediocrity.

And so the good thing about the competitive truth-telling world is that our competitors, our rivals, help force us to take our shit on, which makes it very hard to sit in static quality unless we're happy with mediocrity.

The Celtics have, you know, one of the most – Joe Mazzulla is the head coach of the Boston Celtics, and he's one of – he and I are dear friends, and for the last two and a half years or so, we've been thought partners and brothers in this journey –

The Celtics have, you know, one of the most – Joe Mazzulla is the head coach of the Boston Celtics, and he's one of – he and I are dear friends, and for the last two and a half years or so, we've been thought partners and brothers in this journey –

And I've never seen anyone in my life better at turning weaknesses into strengths than Joe, which is a huge statement because I spent my life with these all-in performers. Not taking weaknesses and like making them less weak or like leveling them out, but turning like an area of core weakness into a core power zone. That's a superpower.

And I've never seen anyone in my life better at turning weaknesses into strengths than Joe, which is a huge statement because I spent my life with these all-in performers. Not taking weaknesses and like making them less weak or like leveling them out, but turning like an area of core weakness into a core power zone. That's a superpower.

And I moved into Brazilian jiu-jitsu and trained in that art for many years and was training for the world championship for Brazilian jiu-jitsu. This is after winning worlds in the Tai Chi Chuan. And I broke my back in a training camp. I own a school with Marcelo Garcia, who's a dear friend, who's nine-time world champion, perhaps the greatest grappler, pound for pound, to ever live.

And I moved into Brazilian jiu-jitsu and trained in that art for many years and was training for the world championship for Brazilian jiu-jitsu. This is after winning worlds in the Tai Chi Chuan. And I broke my back in a training camp. I own a school with Marcelo Garcia, who's a dear friend, who's nine-time world champion, perhaps the greatest grappler, pound for pound, to ever live.

And that's something that Joe trains harder than anybody else. And he leads by example. And he leads with vulnerability. And there's something, he embodies dynamic quality. And that's really special. And that's something I have unbelievable respect for. And you look at Joe now, like Joe just has learned to just thrive in pain and discomfort in his limits, in living at his limits.

And that's something that Joe trains harder than anybody else. And he leads by example. And he leads with vulnerability. And there's something, he embodies dynamic quality. And that's really special. And that's something I have unbelievable respect for. And you look at Joe now, like Joe just has learned to just thrive in pain and discomfort in his limits, in living at his limits.

And that's like the leadership, which I think will lead to beautiful things.

And that's like the leadership, which I think will lead to beautiful things.

Well, going back to back is an approach way of framing that. Like going back to back is different from protecting the title.

Well, going back to back is an approach way of framing that. Like going back to back is different from protecting the title.

And I was training at a really high level. And I was thinking about this, like I was getting ready to begin my surge toward black belt world championships in jiu-jitsu. And I ruptured my old 405 disc. And it was the first time I'd been moved away from an art Not on my own terms.

And I was training at a really high level. And I was thinking about this, like I was getting ready to begin my surge toward black belt world championships in jiu-jitsu. And I ruptured my old 405 disc. And it was the first time I'd been moved away from an art Not on my own terms.

One of the things that I...

One of the things that I...

very difficult in modern society and in the life of a professional athlete or team in modern society is that, you know, you think about NBA players, they're always being interviewed by the media and the media is always trying to drum up drama and always trying to ask, the media always asks the question that is exactly what the performance psychologist of the player would not want the player to think about.

very difficult in modern society and in the life of a professional athlete or team in modern society is that, you know, you think about NBA players, they're always being interviewed by the media and the media is always trying to drum up drama and always trying to ask, the media always asks the question that is exactly what the performance psychologist of the player would not want the player to think about.

So for example, like they might ask something about like, how do you feel knowing the expectations of you are so large you can never live up to them? Right? Like, or is it shameful? Do you feel ashamed about your performance now because of the expectations on you? The questions like that will be framed.

So for example, like they might ask something about like, how do you feel knowing the expectations of you are so large you can never live up to them? Right? Like, or is it shameful? Do you feel ashamed about your performance now because of the expectations on you? The questions like that will be framed.

Right. There's something, because like you want a player to be liberated from self-consciousness. You don't want a player to be playing with an awareness or a fixation on external emotions. expectations or the external eye.

Right. There's something, because like you want a player to be liberated from self-consciousness. You don't want a player to be playing with an awareness or a fixation on external emotions. expectations or the external eye.

Like I remember the feeling in my chess life when I transitioned from losing myself in thought to thinking about how I looked thinking to the cameras or the groupies or whatever on the outside. Like wildly different mindsets as a chess player, right? And so you have all these pressures that are trying to pull you out of an ideal performance state.

Like I remember the feeling in my chess life when I transitioned from losing myself in thought to thinking about how I looked thinking to the cameras or the groupies or whatever on the outside. Like wildly different mindsets as a chess player, right? And so you have all these pressures that are trying to pull you out of an ideal performance state.

And so one needs to learn, develop thick skin or a way of integrating it or be playful with it. And I really believe in Embracing adversity. We have this theme, hunting adversity on the team, which is like these things that could be seen as detrimental or problems or things that could get in the way of our liberation. We welcome them, like cold water.

And so one needs to learn, develop thick skin or a way of integrating it or be playful with it. And I really believe in Embracing adversity. We have this theme, hunting adversity on the team, which is like these things that could be seen as detrimental or problems or things that could get in the way of our liberation. We welcome them, like cold water.

Getting in cold water every day is a very important, I think it's a beautiful opportunity to train it so much. But we don't want to get in cold water gritting our teeth and hating it. No, we want to love the fact that we're about to suffer in that cold water. I've been cold plunging for many, many years, maybe 15 years.

Getting in cold water every day is a very important, I think it's a beautiful opportunity to train it so much. But we don't want to get in cold water gritting our teeth and hating it. No, we want to love the fact that we're about to suffer in that cold water. I've been cold plunging for many, many years, maybe 15 years.

And it's not like when you get into 34 degree water, even if you've been training for a very long time, you're thrilled about this five minute or 10 minute plunge you're about to do.

And it's not like when you get into 34 degree water, even if you've been training for a very long time, you're thrilled about this five minute or 10 minute plunge you're about to do.

And it was a brutal injury that I ended up, as we do and we're madmen, coming back and training for a year and a half with the broken, busted up back. And then the doctors told me I had to let this one go or I'd be crippled for life. And around that period is where I started to go all in on the art of training others.

And it was a brutal injury that I ended up, as we do and we're madmen, coming back and training for a year and a half with the broken, busted up back. And then the doctors told me I had to let this one go or I'd be crippled for life. And around that period is where I started to go all in on the art of training others.

I agree. I have this principle I call living on the other side of pain. And I think that pain, mental discomfort, physical discomfort, or confronting some issue one doesn't want to think about, or taking on one's bias pattern, or if you're, let's just say, a professional decision-maker, taking on whatever

I agree. I have this principle I call living on the other side of pain. And I think that pain, mental discomfort, physical discomfort, or confronting some issue one doesn't want to think about, or taking on one's bias pattern, or if you're, let's just say, a professional decision-maker, taking on whatever

the network of your cognitive biases tends to lead to... Like these are all forms of pain, right? I think the cold water training is such an exquisite way to practice living on the other side of pain in a way that is thematically resonant. And you can train at that... Doing that physical practice can liberate you in your mental arenas to...

the network of your cognitive biases tends to lead to... Like these are all forms of pain, right? I think the cold water training is such an exquisite way to practice living on the other side of pain in a way that is thematically resonant. And you can train at that... Doing that physical practice can liberate you in your mental arenas to...

to take on shit you don't want to take on one thing i've found is that when you're training peak performers there can be the impulse to go right at their weakness in the place they're they're making the error but it's usually much less potent to do it that way because they're well calloused over in that area so if you're like a poker player who has like some control issue right

to take on shit you don't want to take on one thing i've found is that when you're training peak performers there can be the impulse to go right at their weakness in the place they're they're making the error but it's usually much less potent to do it that way because they're well calloused over in that area so if you're like a poker player who has like some control issue right

It's – you could like take on the control issue in poker. But they're so brilliant at poker. Like they've built calluses around it. They've built ways of dealing with it and they're able to play at a high level despite – but like – but they're probably very controlling at home as well with their spouse or their kids or whatever.

It's – you could like take on the control issue in poker. But they're so brilliant at poker. Like they've built calluses around it. They've built ways of dealing with it and they're able to play at a high level despite – but like – but they're probably very controlling at home as well with their spouse or their kids or whatever.

And if you take on the control issues in places they're much less developed, it will be much easier to take it on because it's less calloused. and it will be massively liberating in their poker game. So I often, like this is this idea of interconnectedness and thematic interconnectedness.

And if you take on the control issues in places they're much less developed, it will be much easier to take it on because it's less calloused. and it will be massively liberating in their poker game. So I often, like this is this idea of interconnectedness and thematic interconnectedness.

I'll identify a theme someone needs to work with, but then we'll practice that theme in other areas of their life. And then you could have core habits which manifest that theme. And then there comes this amazing moment where the theme just becomes like internalized because one practices it in things that are away from where it manifests professionally. And then it just releases.

I'll identify a theme someone needs to work with, but then we'll practice that theme in other areas of their life. And then you could have core habits which manifest that theme. And then there comes this amazing moment where the theme just becomes like internalized because one practices it in things that are away from where it manifests professionally. And then it just releases.

And then all the manifestations of that theme just become your way of life. So for example, Like if one wants to take on one's resistance to discomfort, to pain, to pushing one's limits, right? One can practice things like cold plunging, like cardiovascular interval training, like, you know, other things like withholding orgasm, whatever.

And then all the manifestations of that theme just become your way of life. So for example, Like if one wants to take on one's resistance to discomfort, to pain, to pushing one's limits, right? One can practice things like cold plunging, like cardiovascular interval training, like, you know, other things like withholding orgasm, whatever.

You can have ways of practicing like the theme that are completely separate from where it's manifesting or hindering you in your professional life where you're probably very good at dealing with it. And then the unlock will just happen. And you'll be liberated from it. Right? This is one of the most powerful ways that I've found to train.

You can have ways of practicing like the theme that are completely separate from where it's manifesting or hindering you in your professional life where you're probably very good at dealing with it. And then the unlock will just happen. And you'll be liberated from it. Right? This is one of the most powerful ways that I've found to train.

And I said, okay, if I can't be all in training as a competitor, as an athlete myself, I'd been training elite competitors in mental and physical performance for some time then. But I wanted to take on the challenge of loving training others with the same intensity that I love training myself. And I went all in on that art. And I'm still all in on that art.

And I said, okay, if I can't be all in training as a competitor, as an athlete myself, I'd been training elite competitors in mental and physical performance for some time then. But I wanted to take on the challenge of loving training others with the same intensity that I love training myself. And I went all in on that art. And I'm still all in on that art.

I also find cold plunging is just unbelievable for sleep quality, for – I do contrast training now. And I agree with you. Like I've spent a lot – for years I was doing like really long, cold, like 36-degree water for 11 or 12 minutes. And I pushed myself really hard. Wow. And man, 11 minutes is so different from nine minutes. Different world. And now I found that I have a practice of...

I also find cold plunging is just unbelievable for sleep quality, for – I do contrast training now. And I agree with you. Like I've spent a lot – for years I was doing like really long, cold, like 36-degree water for 11 or 12 minutes. And I pushed myself really hard. Wow. And man, 11 minutes is so different from nine minutes. Different world. And now I found that I have a practice of...

I'll do three to four rounds of 42 to 44 degrees between that and the sauna. And I'll do like one longer plunge a week. But like in daily practice, I don't feel the urge to do very long breath holds or very long cold plunges.

I'll do three to four rounds of 42 to 44 degrees between that and the sauna. And I'll do like one longer plunge a week. But like in daily practice, I don't feel the urge to do very long breath holds or very long cold plunges.

I'm asking you because you know this stuff.

I'm asking you because you know this stuff.

And we're on the West Coast. You can think what time that is East Coast time.

And we're on the West Coast. You can think what time that is East Coast time.

But I never actually got to the place where I love not being in the arena myself as much as being in the arena myself. And then in this chapter of my life now, I fall in love with the ocean arts, initially surfing and now foiling. And for the last eight years, I've been living in the jungles of Costa Rica with my family. And I train three to five hours a day in foiling.

But I never actually got to the place where I love not being in the arena myself as much as being in the arena myself. And then in this chapter of my life now, I fall in love with the ocean arts, initially surfing and now foiling. And for the last eight years, I've been living in the jungles of Costa Rica with my family. And I train three to five hours a day in foiling.

We had, so Graham Duncan, my dear friend, joined us at the game last night. And Graham, I consider to be in the realm of like elite mental talent, mapping and assessment to just be in the league of his own. He's such a genius in the realm of... of just finding and identifying people who have world-class potential in mental arenas in really quirky ways. He's a beautiful soul.

We had, so Graham Duncan, my dear friend, joined us at the game last night. And Graham, I consider to be in the realm of like elite mental talent, mapping and assessment to just be in the league of his own. He's such a genius in the realm of... of just finding and identifying people who have world-class potential in mental arenas in really quirky ways. He's a beautiful soul.

And one of the ways he frames this in the investment space when he's looking at high potential investors is he doesn't want to find people who have too specific an identity in the way that they relate to what they do, to make money, to invest, to whatever.

And one of the ways he frames this in the investment space when he's looking at high potential investors is he doesn't want to find people who have too specific an identity in the way that they relate to what they do, to make money, to invest, to whatever.

because there's something static in I am a X, Y, or Z, versus I am something more broad, which leads to one's relationship to dynamic quality, to rediscovery, to changing as the world changes. I think that this relates a little bit to what I was describing in terms of learning chess locally versus learning chess in a way that connects to all of life, which is so dynamic.