Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Tue, 24 Dec 2024
In conversations do you tend to dominate or take a backseat? In this Habits and Hustle episode, I’m re-sharing a conversation I had with etiquette expert Sara Jane Ho about using guidelines to foster a more interactive, balanced dialogue, and deeper connection. Listen as we discuss the challenge of dancing around the fine line between curiosity and intrusiveness, noting cultural differences in what's considered polite or rude, and the intersection of East meets West and female empowerment - especially in business! She also shares the true impact of making a strong first impression, especially in the world of modern dating, and the evolving norms of social etiquette in the post-COVID world. Sara Jane Ho is the star of Netflix’s “Mind Your Manners”, author of the book of the same name, founder of Chinese finishing school, Institute Sarita, where students are taught etiquette and lifetime skills. What We Discuss: (11:00) The legacy of etiquette and charm schools (20:00) How to master etiquette and dating in the modern world (22:18) The impact of a first impression (37:00) The essential guide to exceptional table manners (51:10) The key differences between curiosity and intrusiveness (58:34) Career choices and female empowerment (01:01:51 Herbal remedies and Eastern medicine (01:11:50) Innovative intimate wellness company and proper vulva hygiene education (01:25:14) Avoiding graveyard energy in your home, and the 20 second/40 second rule …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: AquaTru: Get 20% off any purifier at aquatru.com with code HUSTLE Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. BiOptimizers: Want to try Magnesium Breakthrough? Go to https://bioptimizers.com/jennifercohen and use promo code JC10 at checkout to save 10% off your purchase. Timeline Nutrition: Get 10% off your first order at timeline.com/cohen Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Sara Jane Ho: Website:https://www.sarajaneho.com/ Book: Mind Your Manners Instagram: @sarajaneho
Chapter 1: What is the legacy of etiquette and charm schools?
You know, I was always like between really different cultures and trying to figure out how to fit in, right, which is kind of the one thing about like being human, right, human connection and belonging. And so it was very much a survival tool for me to be in different microcultures and figure out, OK, how do I how do I fit in? What are the codes of conduct here? What is the how are people dressed?
What is the slang used? And later on, when I graduated from Harvard Business School in 2012, I well, first I went to a Swiss finishing school, which is it was where women used to go back in the day because we didn't have the opportunity to go to college. And so women would finish the education at these finishing schools. It's mostly in Europe, but in America, you have CHOM school.
You have etiquette schools very much in America too back in the day. And now, you know, women are emancipated. Women can vote. Women go to university. So we no longer go to these finishing schools. But for me, going to finishing school and starting a finishing school in China for women, because we don't do kids, we do adult women.
It was an opportunity I wanted to combine what I was passionate about with what I felt was a market need because no other country has been like China where they've gone through so much change in such a short amount of time. Like when you think about the Industrial Revolution, right, that alone took 150 years to play out in Europe.
And then you have like the services revolution, the technological revolution. In China, you've had industrial services technological in 30 years. So that's a huge amount of change in a really short amount of time because China only opened up with economic reforms in 1978. So you have all these people with newfound riches. Right.
And then but then trying to figure out how to navigate the world with confidence. And for me, when I was growing up, my mother was very much a she was a role model and she was always hosting in the house, creating magical moments between friends. Christmas would be dozens of people at our house. And then I lost it to cancer when I was 21 years old. And my life really changed. I'm an only child.
My dad didn't entertain in the same way on his own. And my home went from being really warm and loving and busy to very cold and lonely and empty until I realized, because I'm a Sagittarius and I love being with friends and organizing social events, I realized I could continue her legacy in something that I also enjoyed doing with etiquette.
And so that's why in 2012, I moved to Beijing and I founded my etiquette school.
Wow. So let me ask you, because you were saying something that was interesting. So the U.S. or North America has charm schools. The European version would be considered finishing school. This is actually very different. timely because some very close friends of mine are from, I have actually a lot of friends from London and they are, this one girl, her name's Amanda.
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Chapter 2: How can you master etiquette and dating in the modern world?
I'm going to give her a shout out. She is all about etiquette and manners and she has impeccable manners and she always teases me about certain things. And so I find it's a very European thing. I haven't seen that same type of I don't know. Well, you wouldn't in California. Let me just put it this way. You wouldn't in California. Yeah. I mean, look how like it's. So it's very culture.
It's very culture based, isn't it? Like it's not. Well, you tell me. You said something.
Chapter 3: What impact does a first impression have on relationships?
Yeah. So California is very casual. It's convenient. It's casual. It doesn't have the same sort of depth of history as the North as New England. Right. Yeah. Whereas like New England and then the South.
Mm hmm.
So the South is a lot of focus on charm school. That was a big thing. Debutantes coming out, their debut into society. So America is so big that you're right. It is very culturally different.
So right. So now that you said that, you're right. Because again, my friends who are very Southern, their children say Miss Jennifer. It's true. It's very specific to the culture and where you actually live. So then let's say, is it also...
I guess it's not just a socioeconomic thing because in itself, no matter where you are socioeconomically, your manners and the way you speak to people and how you address people is very different than how you would, like you said, in California or in different cultures. So that is actually quite interesting.
But back in the day, it would be. So for example, in Europe, if you're from a good family, then you'd be sent to, actually, if you're a man, you'd be sent on a grand tour of Europe to go study the arts, to go see, let's say like, you know, to go to Italy, to go to Greece, to go here and there, to finish your education, right?
Women would be sent to finishing schools to prepare them for life as a hostess. Princess Diana, for example, went to finishing school in Switzerland.
Right. And so what did you, what do you learn there? Give me an example of what were you, what would, what did they teach you? How was the day? Give me a day in the life of what you do.
Yeah. So I was there for two, two and a little bit, two months, a little over two months. And it's a very intensive course schedule. you know, from morning till late afternoon. The course itself is called a hostess course.
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Chapter 4: What are the essential table manners everyone should know?
But does it ever, do people ever get like, I kind of joked around, like I got nervous when I have, I am nervous because even the way you're sitting and the way you're so, you're so polite and you know, you, you kind of know your P's and Q's. It makes the other person feel more uncomfortable. Does anyone ever get uncomfortable with you? If you're nervous around me, then I'm doing something wrong.
Oh, I'm not nervous around you actually. That's what's funny though. You're not making me nervous. It's just the fact that you have that title in front of your name.
Yes. And because to me, etiquette... And this is how I'm trying to redefine etiquette. People think that etiquette is... They think it's very traditional, that it should be taught by a strict middle-aged lady with her hair in a bun or something and wearing a suit. And to me... Etiquette is just about, it's about putting people around you at ease. That is really what the spirit of etiquette is.
That people feel comfortable around you and then you feel comfortable around them. And that goes again back to human connection, human belonging, which is what makes us human.
Because it's funny because when you think about it, the people who are the most, the best manners, the most highly... I guess they seem, they come across conservative or much more stuffy than the average person, right? Like, so there has to be a good balance of understanding human nature and like EQ, like having a good EQ to know how to make the other person feel comfortable.
Yes, exactly. EQ. And knowing how to read the air is what I talk about in my book. When you go into a room and when you meet a new person, you can kind of pick up on the vibes, I guess, is what you'd say in American culture. In China, we'd call it the Qi, Q-I, the energy. We read energy. And so even for me, let's say we're sitting at a dining table, I'm speaking with you like this.
Actually, out of this corner of my eye, I can see who's bored, who's shy, who's playing on their phone, who needs a top up for their wine glass, right? All these things. So having that self-awareness and sensitivity. And I think part of it is also... You know, the reason why I decided to target adults for my finishing school is because I believe that it begins with upbringing.
And the most beautiful gift a parent can give their child is good manners.
I totally agree. I think one of the ugliest things is when a child has bad manners and table manners and Like I always notice those things as I joke around about myself. I try to be much, I'm very cognizant of those things for my own children because it does, it doesn't present well about, it says a lot about the person and then the individual, but sometimes don't you have to start young?
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Chapter 5: How do you navigate the line between curiosity and intrusiveness?
Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So I opened my Beijing school in 2013, followed by a Shanghai school in 2015. Okay. So at some point I was between two cities. My co-founder, Rebecca, who's my co-founder for my finishing school to this day, she's based in Beijing. And actually she does, because now I'm traveling a lot and she does most of the teaching now.
And during COVID, China had pretty stringent lockdowns. And during that time, it was just impossible to hold a class to teach. And so I closed down both physical schools. And now we're, so actually what we do now is whenever we have classes, we have them in the Waldorf Astoria in Shanghai, for example.
Or we work with different, we'll just choose different venues and different hotels to hold our courses in. And how long is the course? Well, the hostess course is 10 days long. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then the debutante course is eight days long. But we also have weekend courses. And we also work with a lot of luxury brands to hold etiquette workshops for their VIPs. So for their customers. Okay.
I love this. So you teach like, would you do like how to set a table? Absolutely. We do.
Like what are the top British afternoon tea table manners is the most popular and most practical course. Yeah. I would imagine. Right. Cause in China, everybody uses chopsticks. Right. So, and, and even Western dining is a really new concept. Really? It really just came about. I mean, in the nineties, it was a Very basically no Western restaurants in China.
And then in the 2000s, a couple of started springing up. Now, every Michelin chef is going to China.
Yes, I agree with you. And I know that to be true. What I actually love about how you present or how you even in your book, it's kind of like to me like a coffee table book. where you don't have to read it all at once. It's an easy read. And there's so many great tips. There's a dating section. There's a table manners. There's different sections.
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Chapter 6: What role does female empowerment play in etiquette?
Chapter 7: How has etiquette evolved in the post-COVID world?
Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So I opened my Beijing school in 2013, followed by a Shanghai school in 2015. Okay. So at some point I was between two cities. My co-founder, Rebecca, who's my co-founder for my finishing school to this day, she's based in Beijing. And actually she does, because now I'm traveling a lot and she does most of the teaching now.
And during COVID, China had pretty stringent lockdowns. And during that time, it was just impossible to hold a class to teach. And so I closed down both physical schools. And now we're, so actually what we do now is whenever we have classes, we have them in the Waldorf Astoria in Shanghai, for example.
Or we work with different, we'll just choose different venues and different hotels to hold our courses in. And how long is the course? Well, the hostess course is 10 days long. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then the debutante course is eight days long. But we also have weekend courses. And we also work with a lot of luxury brands to hold etiquette workshops for their VIPs. So for their customers. Okay.
I love this. So you teach like, would you do like how to set a table? Absolutely. We do.
Like what are the top British afternoon tea table manners is the most popular and most practical course. Yeah. I would imagine. Right. Cause in China, everybody uses chopsticks. Right. So, and, and even Western dining is a really new concept. Really? It really just came about. I mean, in the nineties, it was a Very basically no Western restaurants in China.
And then in the 2000s, a couple of started springing up. Now, every Michelin chef is going to China.
Yes, I agree with you. And I know that to be true. What I actually love about how you present or how you even in your book, it's kind of like to me like a coffee table book. where you don't have to read it all at once. It's an easy read. And there's so many great tips. There's a dating section. There's a table manners. There's different sections.
So you can just pull and just read a little bit and then put it down and go back. It's not sequential like that, right? Exactly. And it's a combination of anecdotes, A lot of anecdotes, right? So each section is maybe one to two pages. Exactly. And it's like, like I said, an easier read. So I want to ask you a few questions. Okay.
So, or go through a couple of things that I thought were very interesting. Let's just talk about, you said in the book, it takes eight positive encounters to change someone's negative impression of you. So can you just talk about that and how did you, how did, who figured that out? How do you know this to be true? Please just expand on that.
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