Sara Jane Ho
Appearances
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits & Hustle. Crush it.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, you could have been doing, you could have been performing consistently well at work, for example. And if you screw up, you know, the most recent project, then that's the recency effect, right? In people's minds, okay, well, but she screwed up the last project. Right.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So the way to work around that is to then actively make good on a lot of projects in order to move the bad project further down the line.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
There's only been season one.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
We grapple with the digital world. And that's why at the end of every chapter, whether it's my social chapter, work, career, love and relationships, food and dining, at the end, there's always a subchapter. So I end every chapter with a subchapter that talks about the digital etiquette for these things. And I think that, you know, my Netflix show, Mind Your Manners, was delayed because of COVID.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So production was delayed because of COVID. It ended up coming out out of COVID, which was end of 2022. But in many ways, I felt that that was more timely because coming out of COVID, everybody had a bit of social anxiety. Our social skills are a bit rusty. We're feeling more isolated and alone than ever.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And you have we have this whole generation, like you said, where I mean, they're going through a mental health crisis and it absolutely is in line with social media and the digital age.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, so the top five things people should be mindful of when dating, whether online or offline, is first of all, for your first date, keep it casual. Keep it casual and have it so that you can control the time frame. Don't sit down for a three-course dinner. Have a coffee. Take a walk in the park. Because if it's not working out, don't waste your time.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Time is the most valuable thing in everybody's life right now, right? And then so you can control the time and then exit when you need to exit. Secondly, I would say the first three days are getting to know someone, but don't go too heavy. Like wait till date three to see if you actually, when you get to know somebody, you see if you're attracted to somebody.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Because by date three, you kind of should know if you're attracted or not before digging into all of their personal history, right? Before, you know, asking about their exes, their divorce, or, you know, kids, et cetera, all that stuff. When it comes to sex, because you just mentioned, right? And so in the book, I say, wait for as long as you can stand it.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Not that I'm saying a one-eyed stand is bad. Hey, like I don't judge. And I think everybody should have a bit of fun. But if you're looking for a serious relationship, then you should wait for as long as you can stand it. And actually it'll be better.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then I would say that, like, for me, I had my best relationships when I was the best version of myself. And listen, all of our issues stem from childhood. And there's no such thing as perfect parenting. Right.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So I think the sooner you can understand your own issues and the emotional damage from your childhood and the sooner you can work on that, whether it's reading self-help books, whether it's listening to podcasts. whether it's getting therapy, which I'm a huge proponent of, and the sooner you can become the best version of yourself, you're like a mirror.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
You will attract the best partner that you can attract.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
That is really interesting. And I can see that. I can see that we are becoming very coddled. So it's a fine balance and it's a balance that, you know, I think, I think we need to think critically for ourselves, you know, so, so much of his hood mentality and we just jump on and that's cancel culture too, as well. Right. It's like jumping on high behind the screen, no accountability.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
What happened to thinking for yourself and thinking about what's important to you and thinking about what you want to do about it?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I'm sure my ex-boyfriend is wearing this right now. But well, yeah, who knows? He blocked me. And by the way, obviously you changed his name, right? Or no, you didn't. Oh, obviously. I kept the first letter the same. So any good anecdote, good story where it's a praise, I keep the real name. If it's a negative story, I change the name, but I keep the first letter as the same.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
100%.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I love it. I love that. Okay. So tell us why. Okay. So explain that. And of course, I mean, it was a New York Times style profile that came out in January, 2023. Okay. And when I, of course they take the one thing that I say out of like a 36 hour, you know, of them shadowing me and they make that the headline.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I love it. Of course. So when I saw it, I, I cringed and then I sent it to my cousin, Adrian, who I'm closest with. And when she saw it, she was like, OMG. And I was dying. I mean, I really wanted to post it on Instagram or social media because it's a New York Times style profile. And I love the photo. And everything else about the article is great. And I was like, ah.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then 10 minutes later, when Adrienne finished, she finished reading the article. She was like, you know what? It's the perfect title. Because it talks about how etiquette is contextual. And so saying the etiquette guru who broke up with her boyfriend over text, it's contextual. And now I embrace the title. And that ex, his friend sent me the title along with comments like, what a title.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
terrible relationship and you get the courage in that moment to do it then just do it the problem is does it ever stick if in your case it obviously step you know stuck but a lot of times people go back and forth anyway it doesn't well you know we were on again off again and because he was in i i knew you know it i was on how he was very insecure and controlling and so i'm i was it was day nine of shooting my netflix show i was like here i am telling my students to live their best lives and over here i have this needy and controlling boyfriend who's making me cry all the time and show up on set with puffy eyes
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And so I was like, you know what? This is it. We're done. And at that point, I was maybe 34 years old. And you think like, oh, it's some cost fallacy, right? We learned this in Harvard Business School. It's like, oh, I invested four years in this relationship already and I'm already this age. Maybe I should just stay with it because who knows? It's hard to meet somebody these days.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, that's a great question. So by the age of 14 years old, I'd grown up in Papua New Guinea, the UK, Hong Kong, and Exeter, New Hampshire, because I went to boarding school at Phillips Exeter. And so I was very much a third culture kid.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Literally, when I sent that text, I was prepared to be single for the rest of my life. I was like, I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than be in a relationship that makes me unhappy. I felt as free as a bird after just cutting it off.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And I think I needed something as intense and overwhelming as shooting a Netflix show to push me to make that decision because I literally didn't have an ounce, not even like a millimeter of space for anything that was not adding value to my life.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then I spent the next eight weeks shooting my show, flew back to China where I spent Christmas Day and New Year's Eve in a 14-day hotel quarantine because it was COVID lockdown, all that stuff. Popped out of quarantine, had a first date with my now husband, seven months later was legally wedded. Are you kidding? I'm so happy.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Every day, I thank my husband for being such an incredible husband to me. So supportive, so kind, so letting me be myself. Yeah. How did you meet him? We met years ago at some event that I hosted at one of my finishing schools. Once you have a physical space, you always have to activate it. So every week, I'd have a couple events, non-etiquette related. Each event would be like 40, 50 people.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
2022.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. Wow.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Where does he live? You say he lives in Beijing. He lives in Shanghai. Oh, Shanghai. Right. And I feel like I have this double life because I'm... Obviously, I grew up very comfortable with the West. I went to Phillips Exeter. I speak English. But at the same time, I had to learn Mandarin.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then I went over there and then I had to open my etiquette school and teach customers who did not speak a word of English. I had to hire staff who didn't speak English. So I literally had to really localize. And to this day, that is one of my achievements that I'm most proud of.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
You know, I was always like between really different cultures and trying to figure out how to fit in, right, which is kind of the one thing about like being human, right, human connection and belonging. And so it was very much a survival tool for me to be in different microcultures and figure out, OK, how do I how do I fit in? What are the codes of conduct here? What is the how are people dressed?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
That when I speak Mandarin, I speak it so fluently and with such an accent that the locals don't believe I'm not a local. Wow.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It's really, really, really difficult. Yeah. So, and people will say, oh, what do you mean you're from Hong Kong? You must just have gotten Hong Kong passport. I'm like, no, no. Like I had to learn Mandarin later on in life. And they say that's not possible because your Mandarin is too good. So what languages do you speak then? English, Mandarin? English.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I speak Cantonese because in Hong Kong we grew up speaking Cantonese. Cantonese. Yeah. I studied French and German. In Hong Kong, I went to a German school. So I speak German and French and then Mandarin. What does he do back in Shanghai?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
But what happened was a production studio in based in Singapore that called beach house productions. They found me, they cold emailed me, they emailed my info at, you know, whatever email. Okay. In 2018. Oh, And then asked me if they could pitch me as an idea to some streaming platforms. And Netflix bought the show. And so what year did Netflix buy it?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And we were supposed to go into production, but then COVID hit. And then that put a spanner in the works. And then we ended up shooting end of 2021 in Sydney. And how many episodes did you do? Six episodes. So season one, six episodes.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
She stayed in China. You know, she has a family in China. And so she was just, she never expressed interest and Netflix never asked and it wasn't... So were you doing... If we shot in China, she'd probably be in it just because, right? No, no, it makes sense. But then at that time, they could only get me a visa to go to Australia. Australia was very strict with COVID at that time.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Even Australians couldn't get into Australia.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yes. Djokovic.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, I was crazy busy just focusing on China, but I got a lot of overseas media interviews. So people are racing. So people did kind of know who you were in this space. Yes, yes. In 2013, Forbes, I was one of Forbes' 12 women to watch. 2015, BBC, I was on their list of 100 women. So how did they know of you? It was really just word of mouth.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
There was five years when I started my business, I never even came back to America. Because I was so busy. I was literally like, my weekends were the busiest. When people had time off was when I was busy. I was teaching all the time. I would fly all over China. So not just in our schools, but I would fly to like Chongqing, Xi'an, Fujian, all these places.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I was doing like three cities a week to teach. And it was just, I mean, it was exhausting. So you are actually one of the people teaching at your schools. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Cause we're a boutique school and we don't have a lot of, we have three teachers, but we had a lot of like, we'd bring a lot of experts, like styling experts.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
What is the slang used? And later on, when I graduated from Harvard Business School in 2012, I well, first I went to a Swiss finishing school, which is it was where women used to go back in the day because we didn't have the opportunity to go to college. And so women would finish the education at these finishing schools. It's mostly in Europe, but in America, you have CHOM school.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
We'd have, uh, you know, well, Rebecca's, you know, a wine expert. We'd have, we have an art expert. So all these things teach their own modality, right? Yes. So what would be your modality that you would teach? Well, the thing I love most is Weston Table Manners. Yes. That's what I absolutely loved. And it was probably one of the, yeah, like the highlight classes that students really love too.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
stop doing yeah so don't hold your knife like a pen you'd be surprised how many people do that they hold their knife like a pen okay like this don't do this well when you write it's like you'd be surprised a lot of people hold their knife like a pen okay how to show us how to hold it the way you held it is correct like this oh really yeah versus so versus like cutting like this okay okay all right so so i was right see there amanda i was right there you go okay okay go ahead
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And so, okay, so here's something that people may not always know. So when you're at a restaurant, when the waiter gives you a menu and you've made your decision, you should close the menu because that is a signal to the waiter that you've already made your decision and he can approach you. If your menu still stays open, he thinks that you haven't made your decision yet.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
He thinks you're still deciding. Yes, that makes sense. And will not come by. Okay. Okay. That's a good one. And let's say you started eating, you picked up your cutlery, you started eating and you want to take a sip of water, right? You need to put your cutlery down, but just as a rest, right? Then your cutlery should be in an upside down V shape on your plate. Upside down V shape.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Like this is a V. Yeah.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Did you put half on the table, half on the plate? That's a big no-no.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
After you eat, they should be parallel, right next to each other parallel, and they should stay on the plate.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Oh, here's a fun one. So when you let's say if you're a woman and you have lipstick on. Right. And you're drinking from your wine glass. Well, you do not want to drink around the rim of your wine glass because that will leave stains all over your wine glass. It'll just look really bad. Make sure you're just drinking from the same one place.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
The guest of honor. Yeah. Well, yeah, if it's just, yeah, if it's just you two, the host and the guest, it should be the guest who should get the best seat. Exactly. And so for example, let's say if you're in a restaurant and there's a banquette, let's say there's like one, there's one chair that's with its back against the wall. Let's say that, right.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
There's one, let's say there's one chair facing a wall. There's one chair facing the room. Then the better seat is the one facing the room. And you should give that to your guests. That makes sense. But how about at the head of the table? Should that not be the host? Yeah. It depends if you're seating French style or English style.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So let's say the table is rectangular and English style would place the host and hostess at the ends of the table. French style would place host and hostess at the middle of the long table. Oh. So there's a difference between French style and English style. And usually French style is reserved for a big party. So if it's like a 20 person dinner or even more like a state dinner, right? If...
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
You have etiquette schools very much in America too back in the day. And now, you know, women are emancipated. Women can vote. Women go to university. So we no longer go to these finishing schools. But for me, going to finishing school and starting a finishing school in China for women, because we don't do kids, we do adult women.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
let's say King Charles is hosting a state dinner, then usually the host and hostess sit in the middle of the long table. That way, all the VIPs that sit near the host and hostess can speak to each other. And then the less important you are, the further away from the middle you sit.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then English style is reserved for small, like at home, for example, a dinner of six people, eight people, 10 people. And the host and hostess are at the ends of the table. And then the VIPs are next to them. And then the less important people are towards the middle of the table. So everybody feels cocooned. But this works for small dinners.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. Body language is a big part. Yeah. Yeah. This is a nonverbal communication, right? So actually, if I'm, let's say, at a gathering or a social function, sometimes I'll sit or I'll stand with my hands like this and my palms facing up. Because actually, when you show your palm, it's an open gesture. It's an open gesture. Whereas if it's like this and this is a closed gesture. Right.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I mean, this we all know. Right. Right. So so even just small. And so if you're standing, if you're standing and you're like feet are all like tangled up, then that's kind of closed. But if you're if you're like, you know, if your feet are relaxed like that, comfortable in ballet, it's the fifth position. Right. The V. And it's just an open and open gesture.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. Well, here's a fun thing that's history related. The history behind shaking hands, why do humans shake hands? It's to show that we don't have weapons in our hands. That was the beginning of shaking hands. Toasting, toasting wine. I mean, now we just raise our glass, right? But back then people would really go at it and then wine would fly around into each other's cups. And why was that?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
To show that the host had not poisoned their guests' wine. That was the purpose of toasting. So why do we still do it? Do we need to? Because hundreds of years of tradition. And so it's still a nice gesture to toast, to welcome someone or to kick off an event or to, you know, it's just to have that is nice.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, and that's fine. But hey, listen, we just went through three years of the first... ever kind of event in the world that affected literally the whole world. So we change with the times and etiquette should be updated with the times.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It was an opportunity I wanted to combine what I was passionate about with what I felt was a market need because no other country has been like China where they've gone through so much change in such a short amount of time. Like when you think about the Industrial Revolution, right, that alone took 150 years to play out in Europe.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So, I mean, the one that you just mentioned, handshake is a big thing. Let's see. I would say, so here's something funny. In Asia, whenever you are sick, you wear a mask. That was always the case before COVID. So if you see an Asian person wearing a mask, it usually means because they have a sniffle and they don't want to give it to you.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Very different from the West where it's like, okay, I'm going to wear it to protect myself.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
In Asia, it was more of a sign of respect where I have a cold. I don't want to pass on my office. Thus, I'm going to wear a mask.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It wasn't. It definitely was not as widespread. And in China, at least, it's more you wear a mask because you are sick and you don't want to. And in Japan as well. You don't want to pass that on to somebody else. But now wearing a mask is much more commonplace. Now when I fly around America, I see Americans wearing masks.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It depends. It really depends. I mean, when I flew back from New York to Hong Kong, on that flight, I got COVID. And then I gave it to my dad who ended up in hospital. And he made it okay. But after that, that made me a lot more careful. So if I'm about to see an old person, then I try to protect myself so that I don't get anything to pass on to an old person.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Well, I would say that if you are really sick, if you've come down with something, then it's better to excuse yourself from a social gathering than to show up coughing and sneezing all over the other guests. Yeah, I think it's also it's also a you'd be surprised, but it's also a really handy way to cancel last minute. It's always that in kids, you know, there's exactly.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So let's say like you want it. You're single. You don't have the kid excuse. I know you can use that excuse. Yep. You know, you can't.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then you have like the services revolution, the technological revolution. In China, you've had industrial services technological in 30 years. So that's a huge amount of change in a really short amount of time because China only opened up with economic reforms in 1978. So you have all these people with newfound riches. Right.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I think it's also contextual. If we were in Asia and somebody saw you and they said, oh, you've gained weight or, oh, you've lost weight or, oh, are you dating anyone out? When are you getting married? These are actually signs of care. And if let's say I saw a friend in China and the first thing he said, oh, you've gained weight, I actually would not be offended.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I would not be offended because it's a way of showing they notice you.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. People either take it extremely personally or they would just think very poorly of you. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so that's why it's very contextual. There is no right or wrong. It's contextual.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I completely agree. And I say that in my book as well. And people think that etiquette is one big no. They think it's limiting. I have friends who tell me, oh, I have terrible etiquette. I'm too honest to have good etiquette. And I'm like, then you don't really understand the essence of etiquette. And when I say etiquette should be empowering and enabling, you can get what you want.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
You can ask for what you want. You can set boundaries. You can go speak to the person you want to speak to. It's all about how you do it.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then but then trying to figure out how to navigate the world with confidence. And for me, when I was growing up, my mother was very much a she was a role model and she was always hosting in the house, creating magical moments between friends. Christmas would be dozens of people at our house. And then I lost it to cancer when I was 21 years old. And my life really changed. I'm an only child.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Well, North American on, I mean, it's kind of, it's exactly, that's true.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And you know what's actually very funny is that when I'm in China, I come across as much more strong, more aggressive. But it's funny because in America, people may not necessarily say that about me. But in China, I am. And that goes to show you again the contextual of it.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And it's like subconscious. It's even subconscious. And I remember like, so for example, I mean, when I'm in America, I speak with an American, my American accent comes out. But when I'm with an English person or somebody with a UK accent, then I sound more English. And in fact, when I read in my audio book, I sound more English. And I always wondered, oh, why do I do that?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I can't even help myself. And what somebody told me years ago was they said, actually, it's a form of good manners because you're trying to speak in a way to let the other person understand you better.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Subconsciously. So you're subconsciously switching over to that.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Also, UK culture, I mean that it's, you know, silence is golden. So people like quiet time. And, you know, there's a culture of never complain, never explain, right? So, I mean, it's just, it's very, it's very different. Whereas American culture is like, speak up for yourself, like complain if you want to, right?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I still do. If I'm not speaking on the phone or on Zoom, I will mute myself. And only when the other person finished speaking, then I unmute. So my sort of resting face is mute, basically. Like I'm always on mute unless I'm speaking. That's a great tip because then you don't interrupt somebody. Yeah. And then you don't have any background noise, right?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Like an ambulance passing by, or if somebody's in the house, right? That you're not distracting the other person. Because if the other person on the phone hears some distraction, they're going to be distracted.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
My dad didn't entertain in the same way on his own. And my home went from being really warm and loving and busy to very cold and lonely and empty until I realized, because I'm a Sagittarius and I love being with friends and organizing social events, I realized I could continue her legacy in something that I also enjoyed doing with etiquette.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
No, I was at Perella Weinberg. Oh, excuse me. Sorry. So basically I interned for Morgan Stanley the summer of my, before my senior year in investment banking in Hong Kong. When I graduated, I moved to New York City and I worked for Perella Weinberg, which was the two founders, Joe Perella and Peter Weinberg. One came from Morgan Stanley, the other came from
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
When I was graduating from Harvard Business School and trying to think about what I wanted to do, I basically narrowed my choice down by geography. And I thought at that time, China was at that point a global power in 2012 with a lot of eyes on China. So it was becoming the second power, second to America. And it was very exciting.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And I'd lived in Beijing as a volunteer for a nonprofit before I went to Harvard Business School. So I spent one year there. And I thought me as a Hong Kong Chinese person, I really wanted to go experience this and be part of China and see what I could do. And so that was how I made my choice. I never considered anything else. I'm very much a here and now kind of person.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I never really think about, oh, what would I be doing otherwise? And in my mind, I was like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to make it happen and it's going to work.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yes. Okay, so here's the thing. Everything I've done in my career has been across two realms. One is East meets West. The other one is female empowerment, helping women move through the world with confidence. And great spin. I love it.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And so, you know, and so two years ago when I was hanging out with my now co-founder for my, for anti-water, my intimate wellness business, when we're hanging out and we were thinking, you know, we want to do something that we're really passionate about and that can, can, that, you know, can bring the best of Chinese culture and traditional Chinese medicine, which actually is her family business.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So she's Taiwanese and Her grandpa founded his first traditional Chinese medicine TCM clinic in Taiwan in the 1940s. It's operating to this day by her cousins. So it was passed down because it's her maternal grandmother and Taiwan's very patriarchal. So it was passed down to the son and the son's son. And so she grew up with this in her family business.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
She went to UChicago, so she's very Americanized like me. And then she moved to Shanghai and she worked for some very exquisite luxury women's wear brands where she was CEO. So she was CEO of Stella McCartney for Asia Pacific for five years, managing hundreds of people. Wow, these are Stella McCartney. I know, I actually noticed that. And then she was CEO of Asia Pacific for Diesel Jeans as well.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And so that's why in 2012, I moved to Beijing and I founded my etiquette school.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And when we were meeting up, actually even before that, she was GM of Shanghai Tang, which is gorgeous, exquisite Chinese brand. It was under Richemont, Shanghai Tang.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yes. Yeah. So that was where she began early days. And then we were sitting down and we've always exchanged TCM wellness tips. And she was like, you know, I'm so bored at my job. I'm not learning anything new. I don't feel like I'm doing something that's meaningful to me. I really care about life sciences. She got a PhD in neuroscience, by the way. She sounds like a real loser this week.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And she's 5'11". Oh, God. What's her name? Annie. Annie Ho. Oh, my God. Okay. So me going to my sort of etiquette makeover mode, I was like, well, if you don't like your life, then do something. Then change your career. Do something that's meaningful to you. And she's like, yeah, that's a good idea. What do you think I should do?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then as we were thinking about this, like what we both loved, what we were passionate about, what we grew up with, we grew up with herbal remedies because of her family business, me, because in Hong Kong, you know, I grew up with acupuncture, herbal soups, all these things because my parents were really into it. Right.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And, and, you know, and, and then, and then she, and we were, we realized that like in TCM, a woman's health begins in her ovaries. So your female reproductive health system, it like, that's like, that is the most important thing. And if that's good, then the rest of your body is good, basically.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Very different. Yeah. And, you know, in the East, it's about prevention. So Eastern medicine is about prevention. Western medicine is about treatment. It's about that quick fix, instantaneous, which I think is a fundamental problem in how we approach health in the West. And I've grown up with both and I use both. So, for example, you know, two months ago I did the prenuvo scan and it was amazing.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
But I also get my weekly acupuncture and cupping and all that stuff as well. Right, right, right. Even when I'm traveling. You said that.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, and it helps me stay regular on my menstrual cycle because- The acupuncture does. Acupuncture does. It's the only thing that, and in fact, this morning I met a, I was at a beauty store and the girl behind the counter was also telling me she does acupuncture every week because it's the only thing that, and she's white, never been to China.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And she was saying it's the only thing that keeps her regular. And a Georgetown girlfriend of mine who I saw in New York, she said when she was 34, she stopped her, she didn't have her period for a year. She decided to go see an acupuncturist. It came the next day. The next day, the next day. So I mean, like it's now acupuncture for women trying to conceive fertility.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It is like one of it's like the number one thing every woman in America is doing now in Europe for fertility. Right. So, I mean, also they say NAD is very helpful. Do you know what NAD is? It's like that Western chemical.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Interesting.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So the top three things that Americans go to acupuncture for are mental health. So whether it's sleep or migraines or just anxiety, you put the needles in the head and you will sleep like a baby. Needles in the head that night will make me sleep so well. Really? The second thing Americans go to acupuncture for is digestion, so digestive issues.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Honestly, all that ice, drinking cold things is not good for your digestive system. That's why I brought my flask of hot water. Even Europeans do not drink stuff with ice.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
If you want to go to the bathroom and do number two in the morning, the first thing you should do is drink a big glass of hot water.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, that's, that's good too. Ginger has warming properties. It's particularly good for women. And it's also just good to get your energy going. How much ginger are you putting in there? I put three slices. Three thick slices is fine. You can adjust as much as you want. The only thing is don't take ginger at night because it will affect your sleep. Because ginger actually helps with circulation.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So particularly for people who get cold easily, who have cold hands, cold feet, Or in the wintertime, like the first thing in the morning, you have ginger. And you can have it up to maybe like afternoon. But in the evening, don't have too much ginger. It'll affect your sleep because it gets your metabolism going, right? Does it? Yes, ginger does. That's how it warms you up.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So this is, I mean, you're not even an acupuncturist or a doctor. This is like the most basic thing that all Chinese people know about. about, about foods. TCM, there's a diet therapy and you know, each food, whether it's cooling or warming and what exactly what it does to your body.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I mean, you wash it. Well, yeah. Yeah. And then just stick it in. It's easy. So it's great. I mean, ideally, if you're at home, you could put three slices of ginger in a pot of hot water and you boil it. And that really like, you know, gets the good stuff out. But hey, if I'm like, I'm on the go, I'm right. If I'm staying in a hotel, like I don't have time to do that. So yeah.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
But the most important thing is the hot water.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
In traditional Chinese medicine, you know, I didn't forget about your product. Don't worry. Your feminine health is very important. And even your period is a report card of your health. Are you regular? Do you have blood clots? Heavy your life flow? Are you entering early menopause?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Then in that case, I mean, if you're always irregular, then you go to a TCM doctor and you figure out why.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Oh, okay. So what we wanted to do was we wanted to come out with a product that was rooted in traditional Chinese medicine, which is 2,500 years of history, and that makes me and Annie happy and healthy, and be able to share that with the world through our brand, Antivorta, which in Roman mythology means goddess of the future. So we have four SKUs.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
We have our cleansing gel, which is basically what you use in a shower on your vulva. We don't believe in douching. Everything is external for the vulva. So we have our cleansing gel. We have our spray in two different sizes. And then we have our intimate wipes, which are individually packaged and biodegradable and flushable. So it's a daily care bundle because we're focused on preventive.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
We're all about prevention. And this daily care bundle, it helps you fight odor, irritation, and dryness.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yes, we just launched in the States two weeks ago on our .com.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, no, we would love it. And in fact, before coming here, I literally just like, I went to some boutique, sort of high-end boutique independent retailers that I felt were aligned with our brand and dropped off pitching sets.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. So California is very casual. It's convenient. It's casual. It doesn't have the same sort of depth of history as the North as New England. Right. Yeah. Whereas like New England and then the South.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. So the most expensive item is our cleansing gel, which is our Hero product. And that's $33. And then our sprays, we have two sizes. So the big at-home spray is $29. The pocket spray is $31. So what, you spray your vulva? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, totally. You turn it upside down and you, you know, four inches away and you spray your vulva.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And the pocket spray is actually a great hit for people who like going to the gym. You know, they go to yoga, have lunch with a girlfriend afterwards, but don't have time to shower. It also works as a great deodorant. A lot of our customers have been using it under their arms as well.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And these are all free of harmful ingredients, all formulated with traditional Chinese medicine, clean, vegan, everything over here. I love it. Who helped you formulate this whole thing? Well, Annie is our chief scientist. I'm CEO and creative. And then she is our COO. And she's head of product. She's head of formula. This is like when we travel to the factory, I'm on the plane watching Netflix.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I'm looking at her. She's reading research journals about different ingredients. Wow. So who else is doing this now? Is there a lot of competition? We're actually the first intimate wellness brand to be formulated with traditional Chinese medicinal herbs, to be inspired by TCM.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
The douching company? Yes. And they're still around. They are? Yeah. They are around. And I, but listen, I would just say whatever you buy, especially for sensitive skin, which is down there, check the ingredients.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It's about helping women move through the world with confidence. And you would be surprised that, okay, so there's this book and it's called Everybody Lies and it's written by a Google engineer. And he says, everybody lies if you ask them face to face, but Google search never lies. Okay. The most Googled body part by men is, you can guess, penis size.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So the South is a lot of focus on charm school. That was a big thing. Debutantes coming out, their debut into society. So America is so big that you're right. It is very culturally different.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
The most Googled body part by women is vaginal odor. Really? I was shocked. Vaginal odor. And young girls who feel crippled by their vaginal odor. Girls of every age.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And it's in a book called Everybody Lies. You can tell sex with Emily that.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. I mean, of course, of course. But, you know, for us, I mean, like even what I do with etiquette, I feel that so much of the media today is telling us you shouldn't care, right? You shouldn't care about anti-aging is a bad word now, right? You shouldn't care that you're aging. But we do, right? The media is saying, you shouldn't clean your vagina or your vulva. But actually, you should.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And we do because, you know what? Who says we shouldn't do that? A lot of people say we should not clean it. And a lot of people say that you should just use water. But here's the thing. Back in the day when we walked around buck naked, right? Like, okay. But now we're wearing Lululemon all day long. We are on Western medication, which messes with our hormones.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
We're traveling long haul, which also messes with our bodies. Stress, alcohol, all these exercise, all these things will affect your microflora and your pH levels. Yeah, totally. Makes sense. So you should clean your vulva. Are you saying vulva because it's a less... No, vulva is the external. The vagina is internal. We don't promote douching. Right, so you don't promote douching.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
That's why you keep on saying it. People refer to the whole area as vagina, but actually... But those wipes, don't you wipe everything? Yeah, but you can't go up into a vagina.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
You need to help me. The good thing is that your back is against a wall and you are facing out onto the room and to the window because the wall is what we call a khao shan. Khao is support. Shan is mountain. And when you sit, you want a wall behind you because that's your supporting mountain that protects you. The worst is to have your desk up against the wall where you're facing the wall, right?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And if you're facing the wall, it's like you have, it inhibits growth because, I mean, you're looking at a wall. Yeah. And then you're defenseless because your back is to the room, your back is to the window.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Now, one thing I would say, instead of a glass table, you should have a wood table because glass is transparent. It's not solid enough if it's a working table. Would, or just something that's like, you know, that's not transparent. Why? Because what would it be? Would be best. So it's, I mean, gloss, like you want your work desk to be a place of security and of productivity and wealth, right?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Bringing in money. Right. And in fact, we say the best work desk is something that even covers over the side so that when somebody, when you're sitting at it, people can't see your legs.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Okay. In this room, I would say your TV is too high and that shelf is a bit high and it creates pressure, especially if you're sitting down.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Just the placement of it. It's like looming over you. So what does that mean? it creates pressure. So it's, it's like added burden.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Well, that's fine. But just in terms of like, I mean, you want to be in the power position, right? So when you're sitting at your desk, you ideally are the highest thing. Yeah, I got you. So you have this TV, like just look at a TV right now. Don't you feel it's like looming over you and about to fall on you? Not until you said it, but okay. And it's so much higher than you. Yeah.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
That it creates like, ideally you could maybe put this on a lower shelf. maybe half the height.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So feng means wind, shui means water. So feng shui is wind, water. Okay. Every feng shui master, if let's say you want to stop arranging the feng shui in your house, the first thing they do is they find out your birthday. So your date of birth and your time of birth, because a lot of it is very customized.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And let's say like your home, you have you, your husband and your children, then usually you provide all the birth dates to them while they're like, you know, calculating which spaces are what. But this room, for example, is just you. So it's just more about you. Feng shui can be applied to your, it can help your love life, your career.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It's about maximizing, it's about making the good things better and making the bad things, like minimizing the negative effects, basically. So it's about arranging your furniture in a way that feels comfortable. If something is good feng shui, it will feel good. Because again, this is the chi, this is the energy.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And so people usually go to a feng shui master when something bad happens in their life. Find out their partner's cheating. Maybe they just got divorced or break up. Something just got fired, maybe. Something not going well at work, a deal just fell through. That's usually when people will turn to feng shui. because something happened and they need help. And then usually we do feng shui.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Feng shui is only, like feng shui generally speaking, so for example, you know, the placement of your desk, you want it to be in a good position where you feel safe, you feel strong, you feel powerful, right? These things are evergreen. But if you want to go to the detail of, okay, put a, um, you need water in this corner.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So you have like some moving fish tank, or you want to put red curtains here, blah, blah, blah. That feng shui lasts only 12 months from Chinese new year in January, February to Chinese new year the next year. So usually every year, because you know, it's a different year, like you'd be year of the ox, year of the tiger, year of the rabbit, right? Right now it's year of the dragon.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
But back in the day, it would be. So for example, in Europe, if you're from a good family, then you'd be sent to, actually, if you're a man, you'd be sent on a grand tour of Europe to go study the arts, to go see, let's say like, you know, to go to Italy, to go to Greece, to go here and there, to finish your education, right?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And so based on each year, details of the feng shui changes, but the general feng shui of like, okay, The placement feels good. Generally that's evergreen.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Absolutely. Like I'll walk into your home and I'll know like, okay, you know, this is, this is a jagged edge or this feels blocked. I mean, but also that's like, what did you feel when you walked in here? Well, I mean, here everything's been pushed aside in order to do the podcast.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Right? So I haven't seen it when it normally is. But, you know, I mean, it feels cozy. It feels bustling. Maybe a little bit... Yeah, like the main thing for me is that the TV is too high.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, but I mean, you know...
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It's not about the aesthetics. It's not about, like, oh, you know, it's... It's about the feeling of everything, the harmony of everything together. So, for example, let's say avoid sharp corners. If you want harmony in the family, then go for rounded corners, or let's say your dining table, or... It can be a rounded corner. It can be a round table. So interesting.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
If you want to do feng shui, let's say you're single, then make sure that you can put some pink in your room that attracts. That's like peach blossom color that attracts love. And then you want to have everything in your bedroom be symmetrical. So if you're single and you're looking for a relationship, the last thing you should have is a single bed.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
You should have a double bed, which invites space for somebody into your life. You should not have your bed pushed up against a wall. You should have space on both sides for somebody to enter. You should not have just one nightstand. You should have a pair of nightstands, right? Again, symmetrical. So kind of act as if.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I love that. You don't want your closet to be totally like completely packed. You want to leave a little bit of space for somebody else to put their clothes in. Are there three key rules of feng shui or?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Let's see. Three, what are some three good rules? Well, so I'd say rule one is
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
rounded corners are preferred over sharp corners right that that's one thing although it's actually okay for for a work desk to have sharp corners okay good rule number two no disturbing art in the house and i say this in my netflix show because you don't you don't want to bring that energy into the home yeah number three never put the bones or ashes of a loved one or a pet inside the home
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
because it turns the house into a graveyard. It gives it too much yin energy. You'd be surprised at how many Westerners do that. You would be shocked. One of my students in my Netflix show did that. First of all, she like, buried all the dead fish in their garden. And then when I said, that's a big no-no, she, a day later, she was like, you know how you said that was a big no-no?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I have a question. I have my dad's ashes in my bedroom. No. And I was like, oh my God. I was like, can we turn the cameras on right now? I was like, oh my God, did you guys catch this?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Women would be sent to finishing schools to prepare them for life as a hostess. Princess Diana, for example, went to finishing school in Switzerland.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, that's fun. By the way, I have about like 10 minutes left. Is that okay?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
I like to think of dialogue as traffic lights. So if you're speaking, if you stay within 20 seconds, green light, you're in the clear. If you're approaching 40 seconds, orange light, like you're edging on boring. And if you've gone over 40 seconds, red light, you're officially self-obsessed. I love that. The only issue I have is what if you're telling a story? Oh, that's different.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
That's different. I'm talking about like a conversation.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. Well, if somebody's asking you a question which requires a lengthy answer, then you just have to be the judge of that, right? You have to be the judge of that. And also, usually, that's why I think it's important to get out there and go to as many social functions as possible and to meet different people.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. So I was there for two, two and a little bit, two months, a little over two months. And it's a very intensive course schedule. you know, from morning till late afternoon. The course itself is called a hostess course.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
It's less about counting the seconds and more about like, okay, like I know I should be mindful. And for me, if I'm ever on the receiving end of somebody who just keeps droning on, on, on, what I like to do is I'm already thinking, because I have a short attention span and I'm already thinking like, how do I get out of here?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And if there's other people nearby, I'll just introduce them to somebody else, which, yeah, some people would be like, that is so immoral of you to push this person onto another person. But it's like, I'm not claiming to be Miss Goody Two Shoes. Right. And so I'm not teaching morals. I'm Miss Manners with a touch of Machiavelli. Yeah.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And there were a lot of modules and everything from dining to dressing to table conversation, greetings and introductions, a lot of country learnings because etiquette is contextual. So there's no right or wrong in etiquette. It really, it's contextual. It depends on where you are, who you're with. For example, let's say if I give a gift to you and we're in the West, right?
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Ideally by end of day, but longest 24 hours. Work-wise? Oh, work-wise, work-wise. Actually, there's data that suggests people expect a response within an hour, but at minimum end of day.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yes, my Instagram is Sarah Jane Ho.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah, everybody should. Everybody with a vulva should get one. Everybody who knows somebody with a vulva can get them one.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
You would open the gift in front of me to show importance to the gift. You would read the note in front of me. You'd make a big fuss of it and show gratitude. Now, in Asia, if I gave you a gift and if you opened it up straight away, it would show greediness and that you have no self-control. So in Asia, if I receive a gift, I put it aside. I don't make a fuss of it. Just put it aside.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then maybe on my own is when I'll open it up. And then later on, then I'll thank the person who gave it to me.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So when I went to Swiss finishing school in Switzerland, it was very European based. But they would talk about different countries on their own. So there'd be country modules. Now, I actually tweaked a lot of the core schedule for my local market for China. And everything we teach, we do what you just asked about, which is a Chinese and Western comparison.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And because I spent my life being between both extremely different cultures, it comes very naturally for me to say, well, this is how we do it in China. This is how we've done it in the UK or in Europe. And this is how it's done in America.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yes. And because to me, etiquette... And this is how I'm trying to redefine etiquette. People think that etiquette is... They think it's very traditional, that it should be taught by a strict middle-aged lady with her hair in a bun or something and wearing a suit. And to me... Etiquette is just about, it's about putting people around you at ease. That is really what the spirit of etiquette is.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
That people feel comfortable around you and then you feel comfortable around them. And that goes again back to human connection, human belonging, which is what makes us human.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yes, exactly. EQ. And knowing how to read the air is what I talk about in my book. When you go into a room and when you meet a new person, you can kind of pick up on the vibes, I guess, is what you'd say in American culture. In China, we'd call it the Qi, Q-I, the energy. We read energy. And so even for me, let's say we're sitting at a dining table, I'm speaking with you like this.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Actually, out of this corner of my eye, I can see who's bored, who's shy, who's playing on their phone, who needs a top up for their wine glass, right? All these things. So having that self-awareness and sensitivity. And I think part of it is also... You know, the reason why I decided to target adults for my finishing school is because I believe that it begins with upbringing.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And the most beautiful gift a parent can give their child is good manners.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
So, so yeah. So my, my finishing school, it's for ladies and, And many are mothers. So like 90% of my clients are mothers. So they can then teach their children.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Right. Because they want to be role models for their children. And to me, that is the most important thing. And I do have some young adults, like actually sometimes I have mothers and daughters because I have a hostess course for married women and a debutante course for unmarried women. So sometimes I'll have a mother in hostess and then her daughter in my debutante class. Okay.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So I opened my Beijing school in 2013, followed by a Shanghai school in 2015. Okay. So at some point I was between two cities. My co-founder, Rebecca, who's my co-founder for my finishing school to this day, she's based in Beijing. And actually she does, because now I'm traveling a lot and she does most of the teaching now.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And during COVID, China had pretty stringent lockdowns. And during that time, it was just impossible to hold a class to teach. And so I closed down both physical schools. And now we're, so actually what we do now is whenever we have classes, we have them in the Waldorf Astoria in Shanghai, for example.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Or we work with different, we'll just choose different venues and different hotels to hold our courses in. And how long is the course? Well, the hostess course is 10 days long. Oh, okay. Yeah. And then the debutante course is eight days long. But we also have weekend courses. And we also work with a lot of luxury brands to hold etiquette workshops for their VIPs. So for their customers. Okay.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Like what are the top British afternoon tea table manners is the most popular and most practical course. Yeah. I would imagine. Right. Cause in China, everybody uses chopsticks. Right. So, and, and even Western dining is a really new concept. Really? It really just came about. I mean, in the nineties, it was a Very basically no Western restaurants in China.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And then in the 2000s, a couple of started springing up. Now, every Michelin chef is going to China.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
Well, we need to dial it back to first impressions. And first impressions, some research says two minutes, some research says not even a second, right? So somebody's forming a first impression of you within a second of seeing you. So that's before you even speak, before you say anything. And usually, I mean, we want to make good first impressions. That's why it's so important.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
And whenever we make a negative, let's say if we have if somebody forms a negative impression of us, then it takes it's varying. So some people have said it takes a certain number of hours. But generally speaking, everybody points to some Harvard research study that, you know, that doesn't really exist. I haven't been able to find it.
Habits and Hustle
Episode 409: Sarah Jane Ho: Mastering Etiquette for Dating and the 20-40-2 Rule for Better Conversations
But generally speaking, they say it takes eight positive encounters to change a mind of somebody's negative impression of you. So if you know that, then it's much better to make a good first impression rather than to make a bad impression and then have to work really hard to turn that around.