All The Feelings • The Sins & Virtues
Temperance: A Surprisingly Progressive Crusade
Thu, 10 Oct 2024
Pete and Tom tackle Temperance in this episode of All the Feelings, and boy, do they have some!They dive deep into the history of temperance, from its philosophical roots with Aristotle to the rise of the temperance movement in the US. Expect a hilarious exploration of how "don't get drunk" somehow led to women's suffrage (thanks, Dave!), the surprising connection between the temperance movement and other social reforms, and a healthy dose of skepticism about moral crusades. Plus, Pete shares a truly horrifying story about his grandfather and a urologist at a golf club that you won't want to miss. So, get ready for prohibition, civic know-how, urinary health and everything in between, plus "Temper Temper," the game show that tests your knowledge of prohibition! ---Learn more about supporting this podcast by becoming a member. Visit our website to learn more.
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All the Feelings presents Sins and Virtues. This episode, Temperance. Tom, it's Temperance Day. We're teetotaling on the podcast. Are you excited?
I'm, no, I'm very restrained, actually. Along the lines of temperance. Yeah, I'm feeling very restrained. I'm modification. I'm feeling very weird. Yeah, exactly. All of those things. Temperance. This was an interesting one. I didn't see this one coming down the pike. And again, I was there when we came up with this idea.
I was vastly more interested in this topic than I thought I would be. Interesting. How come? Do you remember why? Well, first of all, because I expect it. I have an expectation now that all of the heavenly virtues are just straight-up religious tools of the early church. Sure. And it turns out this one has a much richer historical texture than I expected. Oh, interesting.
And it is rooted in... There's still a lot of just straight-up moral code that is driven by this, but just the fact that it is so anchored in our...
human history with alcohol i think is really funny yeah yes correct like the temperance movement yeah it's like the anthropocene like era had to work to make temperance be about stuff that wasn't don't get drunk like now it's about other things but if sure like when it was really big it was about don't get drunk those were the hands yeah it It leads to also women should have the right to vote.
Like that comes out of the temperance movement. Women's suffrage. That's fascinating.
This is what happens when you take whiskey out of people's hands. Everything goes haywire. We're letting women vote. We're busting up barrels and yeah.
Yes. Yeah. So I was just fascinated by it. I was fascinated by kind of the history of it. So, yeah, this one hit me out of left field. Where do you want to start? What do you want to do? Do you have a thing? Do you want to talk about anything specific?
Is there a quiz you want to run? First, I think we should, in case not everyone is as incredibly smart and clean shaven as us, why don't we go throw it to our friend the robot and say, hey, robot, what is temperance? Temperance.
Noun. A. Habitual moderation in the indulgence of the appetites or passions. B. Moderation in or abstinence from the use of alcoholic beverages.
100%.
Yeah, 100%.
So you start looking at temperance. You start looking at what is really the historical background? Well, it's derived, as you might expect, from the Latin temperantia. Temperantia. Yeah. It's just fun. Sure. Meaning moderation or self-restraint. It is obviously one of the cardinal virtues in classic philosophy and Christian theology. So sure, it's got one foot in religion.
It goes back to Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius and Immanuel Kant, as well as religious figures and movements. Interestingly, in classical philosophy, Aristotle, for example, in Nicomachean Ethics, defined temperance as a virtue that avoids extremes and finds a balance between excess and deficiency. and views it as essential for achieving eudaimonia, or human flourishing.
That's really interesting. Excess and deficiency, so it's driving it through the middle. So it's not saying abstain from it completely, but don't overdo it. Yes.
Yeah.
Well, that was the problem.
I feel like my view of temperance is Aristotelian. Who knew that I would be in the same camp?
100%.
Yeah, exactly. Right. That it's not completely abstaining from it whole cloth, but it's not going over. Yeah, that seems to be the way to go. And potentially that was the big problem with prohibition or the idea of prohibition. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Well, and Marcus Aurelius too, the Roman emperor, the Roman emperor and Stoic philosopher described temperance the same way, a virtue that opposes the love of pleasure, emphasizing rational control over one's desires and appetites. Now, interestingly, opposing the love of pleasure is, I take issue with. I don't think we should oppose the love of pleasure. I love pleasure.
But emphasizing rational control over one's desires and one's appetites is not teetotaling to me. It sounds, again, pretty rational.
What were they, did they ever say, and we're doing this because of, meaning what were they worried about? The people were going to lose themselves to passions and appetites? Like what was the negative part?
I don't know, because it's not really until the 18th century that we start seeing temperance movements that exist as a response to something specific. Right. That it takes shape as a response to widespread alcohol abuse.
Right.
And we see we see public figures coming out and starting to criticize the social and moral impacts of specifically drunkenness.
right right okay and we're still idiots when we're drunk as humans like that's just that's settled science so uh we've learned we in fact through all of this have learned nothing and it wasn't until the 19th century that temperance societies emerged initially advocating moderate drinking and gradually shifting toward complete abstinence. So they even started Aristotelian.
They even started saying, you can drink a little bit if you're careful. And eventually we're like, you know what? You can't be trusted.
We're taking it away. It's like a nation of slippery slope. You say that the moderation, if left to the people, is impossible?
Is impossible, right. And here's where it comes back to tying social reform to moral reform and rooting it in the church. My hypothesis is, not being an expert on this, but my hypothesis is that the founders of the temperance movement, while being Christian themselves, knew that if you put moral weight to it behind the weight of the church...
people will use guilt and shame as a way to modify their own behavior, right? That's the idea. We've talked about it with lust and gluttony and all of the other ones. When you root them in the church, guilt actually will out. And we have a social movement and something to fight about.
So what do you think is the most effective in history? I'm just, is it making it against the law, like actual government or city? That worked really well. Yeah, or is it social pressure, like from the church?
I don't know that from the church is necessarily a modifier, right? Is social pressure the thing, right?
Well, I think the church leads to social pressure, I guess. Maybe I was making that a one, like a through line. Because God isn't going to, at least right now, God is not going to come and smack the bourbon out of your hand. Your judgment comes later. And so what we have instead is church leaders and pressure from the humans around you.
Okay, so talk to me then about cigarettes. Did the church smack the cigarettes out of your hand? Should they? Do they? No, they don't. They never did. No, they never did. Interesting. Right. And cigarettes, like, objectively, are works. Eventually, right? Do you know what you get from smoking cigarettes? A very high risk of lung cancer. Right.
So we pick. But what the thing about cigarettes, other than maybe, say, the smell or having to distance yourself from people when you do it in more modern times, you don't act. crazy when you smoke too many cigarettes right that's the thing is it's a that the social element when you drink too much you are a buffoon and potentially become violent cigarettes don't unleash your inner gross part
Well, and we're coming around to that same sort of feeling culturally around marijuana use, right? It doesn't make you act like a buffoon. It makes you munchy. And that's, I think, a really important thing. And one of the things that's different about the temperance movement related to alcohol is they never got to the thing that makes me drink only in moderation, which is
my grandfather standing next to his urologist at the golf club over a urinal and having his urologist see in my grandfather's urine stream pieces of his liver that have been decayed by his martini abuse. He abused those martinis. You've told this story before.
How did it come up before? Yeah. I'm trying to remember why would this story be a repeat here? It makes a thousand percent.
It does. And that's why I'm saying, I'm like, I know we've talked about it before because I, that's one of those like gravitationally powerful stories in my head. Any story will eventually come back to my dad peeing out or my grandfather peeing out his own liver. The point I'm trying to make here is the health and safety aspect of, of, of,
too much alcohol or alcohol abuse i feel like was overshadowed for a long time and it was strictly hey you act like an idiot and it makes you drinking too much alcohol causes social and moral failings in people ignorant of the fact that it's also poisoning you
Interesting. So that, yeah, that, that wasn't a part of it was, oh, and also you're killing yourself. It was more, you're being mean to people on the street or you're peeing on a horse. You're fighting a saloon. Right.
And I think that's really, that's, that's like a big deal because as soon as you tell people not to behave a certain way in public, there is a subset of people that's specifically going to go out and behave that way in public. You're humans. That's what we do. Like we don't like authority. Right. You can't tell me what to do, tempers movement.
American thing in particular. Yes. There is an enormous subset that thinks that American, that the point of being an American is you don't have to follow rules. And that's just not true. Right. We broke away from some rules when we left from England. We didn't say, okay, like the First Amendment isn't free for all. We immediately started setting up a bunch of rules.
Yes, we really did. And so I think that's sort of my take on it. Like when there are rules as Americans, somebody has to push back on them. Right. And this one, particularly interesting because it is poison. Yeah. It's, I mean, and I'm not, I drink. I get it. Right. On this show, we actually made an entire member episode about us drinking hard liquor. Like that's, we're fine with it.
So let's just put that on the, that's table stakes. But sociologically, I think this is a much more interesting background. It's a good point. Yeah. Then the other piece that I came back to was like, how does this, how does this tie to, well, I, you know, I don't, I don't want to necessarily get too much into prohibition because I know you have a real corner on prohibition.
Go for it.
But what I, what I was interested in is, you know, how does the temperance movement, how did the temperance movement influence social policy?
Yes.
Yeah. And how do the states and the federal government kind of go – like what does that tug-of-war look like around the temperature movement? I mean do you have anything on that you want to talk about?
I don't. No, and I'm interested in that because you brought up marijuana and marijuana federally versus statewide. Yeah, because we're in the middle of it.
It's the same thing. It's the same thing. And so you do have – you did have a lot of states, individual states trying to regulate. Maine Law of 1851 was one of the earliest and most influential prohibition laws, which passed by –
advocate neil dow and served as the model for the other states that started popping up and what was the answer to the main law of 1851 as it over the next 50 years started to to propagate as more states uh joined the the united states was the 18th amendment in 1920 right which said hey we're gonna go ahead and not and not do booze anymore good luck everybody right
Yeah, it was the 18th Amendment and then followed up by the Volstead Act, which was the actual law in 1919. I do have that. That was like – that was the muscle behind it. What was going on in Maine? I don't – when was the last time Maine was the first – I would have – maybe I'm clearly being influenced by current politics. I would have thought it was maybe a real southern state.
Right now, southern states are the first to start enacting more, if you want to call it conservative policies. Yeah. So what was, why Maine?
That's a really good question. I mean, Maine was the 23rd state. It became a state in 1820. So it had, you know, 31 years of statehood under it. I've always had the impression that temperance moved South. Like, and when you think about like what I knew going into this was like, it started North moved South and by prohibition, Chicago was the big thing. Like that was the-
locus of violence and prohibition right and um and and so i don't know why specifically maine but you know let's just say this and no offense to mainers sure but when there are fewer states every state is more relevant that's a good point everybody's got a big spotlight on them sure there's no flyover states there's no no everybody can touch
I would love if you were somehow able to do this, really zoom in, like get smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller, like more and more close, close, close of Maine. It's Maine, and then this part of Maine, and then this section of Maine, and then this neighborhood of Maine, and then it's Dave. And Dave was such an ass when he drank.
The ramifications ended up taking down Maine and then the United States. And it was just this one guy who was always such a jerk.
It always starts with one guy. And when you have the name of Neil Dow as the guy who spearheaded legislation in Maine in 1851, whose buddy is
right made neil do this yeah because it was dave neil's buddy he lived right next door to dave who was embarrassing and he was constantly playing the fiddle late at night and not very well because he was drunk and neil woke up with like just trash in his yard and uh inappropriate signs no and and dave would come out with like a penis on his forehead that somebody had drawn he just embarrassed everybody
yeah he'd say what is this because it was so old like we didn't know what things were he invented the first sharpie it was terrible dave
So I think that's really interesting. And so from that – but then what – I mean what – how does – this is the next thing. I'm going to skip a lot of stuff because I want you to talk about it. But then how does temperance really take over a movement beyond alcohol, right? What other things did we try to temper? Oh, I don't know that. Did we? Well, I – you know, sort of.
The problem, I think, is one of words, because really the abstinence movement is a temperance movement for sex. Like they already have it. I was wondering if the temperance movement actually ever tackled sex. And it turns out, I think they already had a movement for that. They didn't need to glom on. to something else.
But there were sexual morality campaigns and educational efforts from the Women's Christian Temperance Union, WCTU. They were founded in 1874. They have been big in this space for a long, long time. And they promoted sexual morality campaigns. So they promote conventional sexual morality. So chastity and don't sex if no baby. And this was part of their effort. That's their bumper sticker.
It goes on the back of all their wagons.
Just on their horses.
Their horses' asses. It was part of their broader effort to protect women and children from the perceived dangers associated with male drunkenness and sexual exploitation. Male drunkenness.
We're tying the two back together. And yes, of course, male.
Of course. Yeah. So so I thought that was really interesting. But really, the temperance movement came back for not specifically towards sexual maladaptive behavior, but just broader moral reform over the years. And it has been they've had sort of tried to tried to have their shadow sit over public morality issues.
um urban centers uh prostitution and domestic violence as another big category which is important that's one of the things that's so interesting about this that when you look at their legislative influence like i'm not kidding when i talk about the women's rights to vote and
The temperance movement, the temperance movement, temperance activists included Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and they were early advocates for women's voting rights. That's just awesome. It's awesome. So the temperance movement, while I don't love the moral judgment that kind of comes with the whole vibe, there's some legit history of getting some good progressive things done.
Right. under their sort of movement their their gangbanger advocates is what they are like they are they they know how to get stuff done sure early punk rock you know who we have to thank in effect i mean we just switched to women but dave uh women next time you vote
Thank Dave. Use the write-in. You're not voting for Dave, but just give a little tip of the hat to old drunky Dave with his fiddle. We're hauling it together.
In the shadowy corners of American history, a movement was brewing. It was the year 1869, and temperance, an idea as old as the republic itself, found a new champion in the form of the Prohibition Party. Born from the righteous fervor of its founders, this party sought to cleanse the nation of its most insidious vice, alcohol. Picture this, a dimly lit room, smoke curling from a single candle.
Around a table, men and women of stern conviction plot a course that would change the nation. Their weapon? Not bullets or bombs, but ballots. They aim to elect politicians who would outlaw the sale and consumption of intoxicating spirits. Thomas Nast, the famed cartoonist who gave us the Republican elephant and the Democratic donkey, gave us the Prohibition Party symbol too.
The mighty and noble camel, a creature that drinks only water. The Prohibition Party was a trailblazer. It was the first political party to welcome women as full members, recognizing their critical role in the temperance movement, and their efforts bore fruit. By 1920, the 18th Amendment was law, and America entered the dry era of prohibition. Yet, as with all Crusades, there were shadows.
Prohibition gave rise to speakeasies and bootleggers, the underworld thriving in the darkness created by the law. The Prohibition Party's influence waned, but it never disappeared. Even today, it stands as a testament to a time when the nation's moral compass... pointed fiercely towards temperance.
A relic, perhaps, but one that whispers of a time when the battle for the soul of America was fought over a bottle. Want to join a party that isn't shouting at the kids trying to spike the prom punch? Become a feeling friend today. For just $35, you can get drunk on the knowledge that you're a supporter this season of All the Feelings.
Plus, you'll get access to your very own members-only podcast feed, chock full of member-only extended editions of our episodes, member-only episodes, our trailer archive, and just so much stuff.
So jump in now, support the season, and know that you're also supporting Pete and Tom as they launch their own political party, the Anxietatem Party, under the banner of the ostrich, a symbol of unrealized potential, and voted a top three most anxious creature. Visit allthefeelings.fund to learn more, and thank you for your support. On with the show!
Welcome back to Temper Temper, the only game show that tests your knowledge of the temperance movement and the United States prohibition. Let's get to know today's contestant, Pete. Pete, it says here you used to have a beard and have a potato that doubles as a taser. In basic overall terms, what do you know about the prohibition?
I know they told me not to drink and that my eyes aren't as bloodshot as they would have been.
Exactly right. From 1920 to 1933, we've already talked about the 18th Amendment and the Volstead Act. Now we have four or five, we'll see how you do, true or false questions to see temper temper what you know. About the prohibition. Are you ready, Pete? I'm ready, Tom. True or false? Prohibition made it illegal to consume alcohol.
Okay. See, just asking the question makes me think that I'm going to fail the test. Interesting. I'm going to say no. I think it was prohibited.
Not one of the answers. True or false? False. Correct. The 18th Amendment actually just banned the manufacture, transportation, and sale of intoxicants. Correct. Any hooch you had stored away before 1920 was totally legal, and you could enjoy it to your drunk heart's content in the privacy of your own home. Yeah.
In fact, some avid spirit hounds bought out entire liquor stores before the hammer dropped and stored the liquor in large cellars built under their houses, and it was all legal. Correct.
that sounds particularly american we did the same thing with toilet paper in 2020. exactly right yes and of course i was like well i'm not going to hoard liquor and then it was all gone and i was like well i guess i'll wipe my ass with this bourbon bottle thank god prohibition was repealed yeah Pete, are you ready for question number two? I am. All right. True or false?
Prohibition led to unity among different races and a surprising decrease in xenophobia due to common feelings against the 18th Amendment.
Oh, that sounds exactly right on. That sounds like enemy of my enemy is my buddy territory right now. I'm going to say true.
False. America becoming less xenophobic. That's adorable, Pete. In addition to vilifying black cultures for their supposed love of the sauce, World War I allowed politicians to paint America's largely German brewing industry as a threat. One pro-temperance person said, was quoted as saying, quote, we have German enemies in this country too.
And the worst of all of our German enemies, the most treacherous, the most menacing, are Pabst, Schlitz, and Miller. End quote. An actual quote. Politics is stupid. All right. Are you ready for number three? So far, you're one to one. Okay. True or false.
Arguably, the population most affected by prohibition were the politicians themselves who were forced to model temperance behavior for the general public. There's no way that's true.
There is no way that's true. They're the worst.
100% false. You are right. Adorably, Congress had its very own bootlegger. You can look him up. His name was George L. Cassidy, and he was known as the man in the green hat because when he was arrested once, he was wearing a green hat on his head while making his rounds. He would make up to 25 deliveries of illegal booze to members of Congress a day. all under the nose of the Capitol Police.
He later wrote that he helped over 80% of Congress break prohibition law. That is, if we need a new spirit animal for this podcast, it's George L. Cassidy, the man in the green hat. It's a green hat, yeah. Last one. So far, you're doing great. Here we go. True or false? In addition to liquor brewers, the wine industry was decimated by the 18th Amendment.
I'm trying to game it a little bit. Because wine is a spirit. It's booze. It's an alcohol. Yeah, yeah. It's an intoxicant.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. But... Was there some 18th Amendment loophole where they called wine art or something and art was protected somewhere else?
No, actually, there was a loophole for medicine, that you could get alcohol medicine. I did not include that question, but you're right. That was the loophole, was you could get alcohol prescribed.
So did they start saying that alcohol was medicine? No. This is just about wine. I'm going to say no. The wine industry was not decimated because that would just seem right.
Correct. False. And avid listeners will learn that every answer was false this entire game show. You know what winemakers did? They almost immediately started selling chunks of grape concentrate called wine bricks.
You can see a picture of a wine brick on the internet and they came with a snarky warning on the rectangular package that said, quote, after dissolving the brick in a gallon of water, do not place the liquid in a jug away in the cupboard for 20 days because then it will turn into wine. End quote. They were barely hiding. And winemakers did fine because they were just selling fruit, buddy.
So this is unprecedented, but I actually have a few questions for you. Oh, no. Pete, this is exciting. Wait, is this still a game show? Or are we done with that? You can do what you want with it. All right. Welcome back to this. I did it. What famous brotherly duo was the angel and the devil of Chicago's Prohibition Empire? Brotherly duo? Yeah. Elliot and Stephen Ness? I have no idea.
Other side, Al Capone's oldest brother was a prohibition enforcement agent, James Vincenzo Capone, who later changed his name to Richard Joseph Hart. And he enforced prohibition laws while his brother built a criminal empire. Wow. What do you think of that? That's pretty good.
That's very exciting, and I bet Thanksgiving sucked.
Okay. You want to find a place to drink in Chicago or Boston or New York. What signal are you going to be looking for as you wander around town? I'm going to make a guess and say a green door. Oh, you're right ahead of me. And I wonder, the reason I asked that is I wonder if that's connected to Green Hat Man.
Is that the deal? They don't make that connection in everything that I read. No one ever said, hey, green is the color that my drunk lady wore. Yeah, no, they don't ever say that. That seems to be a coincidence.
It's fantastic. And the last, oh, I have maybe two more. So this is the reason I got that one question wrong about bringing together things, groups. Races and groups. Because in the age of segregation, prohibition did bring groups together and created a lasting effect thanks to their love of alcohol and jazz. Whoa. Do you know what those were called?
Hop, hop, hop, hop rooms. Like it'll be something like, hey, baby, meet me down at the hop, hop. Okay, I'm done.
You are a real hep cat. I am talking, of course, about black and tan clubs where white and black patrons came together to drink. and listened to jazz music. And that was from 1920 to the end of Prohibition. I thought that was interesting. That's very interesting. The end of Prohibition made U.S. constitutional history. How so?
I actually know the answer to this question. It is the only amendment that was erased, taken back.
unamended right it was the 21st amendment is the only amendment written all the time that we that the constitution has been amended by state conventions instead of state legislatures too and so i think that is amazing it's like congress says we need a do-over because poor cat george cassidy
yeah well you've really ruined things for him and what an argument against like originalism constitutionalism the idea of the constitution is set in stone like we did when all the founding fathers if they were here today they'd be like ah what's that what's that what's that what's that what's that yeah that's my impression of all the founding fathers
100%.
It'd be littered, mostly with Hamilton, but a lot of John Adams, too. Yes.
This has been Temper Temper. We'll see you next time.
We're going nowhere fast as we can.
That was much more fun than I expected. I thought this was going to be a real drag.
Well, this and Sloth. I was looking in of like, why are we starting with Sloth? Even when I said, let's start with Sloth, I was like, why are we doing this? And this has been an enlightening podcast for everybody. Everyone's talking about it. I actually heard from our listener.
Well, thank you all so much for joining us on this episode. This week's tune is Nowhere Fast by Ateller. What are we doing next week, Thomas?
Literally no idea. I forgot to look it up.
We're doing greed.
Greed. Ooh, I know it's good. Greed works. Is it? I heard somebody say that once. He's very, very, very handsome. Oh, so handsome.
I honestly, I'm worried because apart from, apart from lust, it's possible that, this is an episode that could get us both canceled somehow.
Is that what we're aiming for?
If you're not a feeling friend, get in. We don't have a group for feeling foes yet, but if you give us money, I'll set one up. Agreed. That'll be a good one.
Yeah, I'm excited about that one. Excellent. Until then, I'm Pete Wright. I'm Tommy Mitz from 3rd. Thank you all so much for listening. We really appreciate it. We will see you next week on All the Feelings, Sins, and Virtues.
Limping to the end.
Yeah, that was a real 9-10. Virtues.