Reid Hoffman
Appearances
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So even if there's a bunch of smaller models that are specifically capturing other kinds of market opportunities, which is part of what I've been doing and investing in AI since 2014, 2015, there's going to be a set of those things that are all a whole bunch of startup opportunities.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So I think that the A versus B is a good dramatic framing, but it's really on which specific opportunities, because there's going to be wins and opportunities across them.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Yeah. I think the mistake that people make is they think precisely it's like the one model to rule them all. It's like Sauron's ring. And actually, in fact, already today, like for example, one of the things that
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
happens with all the model providers at Microsoft and OpenAI, which I've seen, is they'll sometimes sub in, like GPD 3.5, as it was before, to see what the answers are, because there's a cost of compute. Even as you learn to bring the cost of the compute of the larger models down, the larger models are always going to be a lot more expensive.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And by the way, they're going to be more expensive kind of probably loosely on the order of magnitude, right? So it's like, well, it's 10x larger, it's 10x more expensive. And so when you're trying to say, hey, I'm trying to make business models work,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And so what I think you're going to see is networks of models and like kind of traffic control and escalation and all the rest. And agents are not going to be one model. They're going to be blends of models. And that's one of the reasons why you say, well, there's actually, in fact, a lot of room for startups. Because it's not like we say, well, we take GPT-7 and we just serve it for everything.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's like, well, it's going to be super expensive. And there's a whole bunch of things about serving it more cheaply. And for example, one of the really great technical papers that I love from Microsoft is, all you need is textbooks.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's like you can train very specific models on kind of like high quality data, along with, by the way, the larger model helping train it, that all of a sudden you have a functional smaller model. And, you know, the question will be a blend of these things. So I think the multi-model approach is, I think, going to be, you know, quickly universal.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Donation and investment. I led the first commercial series, first commercial round.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So it's a 501c3 is the governor thing, that's what started. And when Elon and Sam were starting this and said, look, we need philanthropic support, and we're trying to make sure that there is open access to AI, which is gonna be an instrumental technology, and we've got some great technologists who wanna come do this, we started as a 501c3 for doing it. That persists, as far as I know, till today.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Co-founder.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Then one of Sam Altman's pieces of genius was that he kind of said, look, we're gonna need scale capital and I'm trying to go out to raise, and the commercial round was 600 million, I'm trying to raise 600 million in philanthropy and it's not working. So I have this idea, which is the 501c3, which is doing this kind of research mission of AGI for humanity is also producing commercial benefits.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And we can create initially an LP, which has a kind of a revenue right on the commercial things that investors can invest in. And Reed, it'd be really helpful if you led this because, and I was like, well, but you don't have a go-to-market plan. You don't have a... product plan, business plan. He's like, yeah, but we need to show that we're actually serious with the business.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I said, all right, fine, I will lead it from my foundation. Because even though none of these things we like to see as investors were there, but I was like, look, okay, I'll lead it as an investment, I'll manage it as an investment, but I'll do it as an investment for my foundation in order to do this.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And, and what, you know, you know, kind of that was kind of as we were beginning to get into, you know, like, kind of, we, we hadn't seen anything, they were still doing Dota and, and robot hands and much of this. So it was like, we're betting on the scale thesis of generating something magical. And so we hadn't seen GPT-3 yet.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And of course, once that started coming, then it was like, well, we need a bunch more capital, let's do a strategic strategy. you know, connection and let's talk to all the hyperscalers and let's work out a deal by which one of them invests in us. And then, you know, the Microsoft Open AI deal came together with, you know, converting the LP into a subsidiary of the nonprofit.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
kind of saying, look, there's all kinds of benefits that both OpenAI and Microsoft can get from a business deal. And so that's what's led to the structure that I was familiar with before I left the board.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, what is the, I'm not very charitable about those lawsuits. I would like to be, because Elon's one of the entrepreneurial heroes of our time and generation. But I think it's the, I think it's, you know, frankly, I think probably the most charitable thing to say is sour grapes. Because, you know, for example, I know Sam offered him as much of the investment round as he wanted, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Like he could have done the whole thing. He could have let it, you know, it was kind of like, hey, look, we still love you. And he was like, no, it's not a company that I control. It's going to fail. So I'm not interested in investing. And I was like, okay, right. And so now you're getting these lawsuits that are like, you know, like I was misled.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And it was like, you were offered everything at every opportunity other than converting OpenAI into a company that you completely owned. And so, you know, I think it's without basis, without merit.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think it was a jurisdiction issue, Jamal. Oh, that makes sense. I can track that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I, by the way, put in $10 million at the same time, and I don't have any shares from those $10 million.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, look, I can understand the emotion of that, but it's not like Elon's short of money, right? And so if you go, look, I'd like to have shares like I did, invest in the other thing. I didn't get any shares for the 10 million that I put in. And by the way, it's not just legal technicalities. It's actually really important that you're not doing private enrichment off philanthropic donations.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And so, you know, it's... But isn't that what's happened? No, from a viewpoint of... they're held separate, right? And so, you know, and the 501 continues to control the, you know, kind of control the kind of the mission and destiny and so forth.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And so the question about its mission is still guiding things and you're essentially investing in that mission and you recruited people, you know, on that mission. And so, you know, I think that the, you know, you know, I think, like I said, sour grapes,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Yeah, I met David because Peter had known him from Stanford and hired him in. And David very quickly, because he has a strong learning curve as he plays these things, kind of got the instinct of what the game we were playing with PayPal was. And it's part of the reason why I think each of the execs have had kind of key contributions to making you know, kind of PayPal successful.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, as a content creator too. Look, I think that it tends to be a little bit of a, we do want content creators to benefit economically from the work. It's part of the reason why we have copyright. It's part of the reason why we have payrolls, you know, other kinds of things that I think are very important. And I think it's a complicated thing that needs to be sorted out.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Now, that being said, I think we also want to say that we can train these models, like, you know, like training is like reading and like reading things is, you know, like when something's available to be read and you've engaged in the right economic thing for reading it, I think that's a kind of a reasonable fair use thing.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Now maybe we update the terms of service, maybe we update copyright law and other things to say, okay, that now changes. I think we don't want to forbid changes in the future. This is one of the problems we get, it blocks innovation when we do that. It blocks innovation in kind of Hollywood, it blocks innovation in music, it blocks innovation. So you want to allow some new changing landscape.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I think this is a changing landscape that arguably is reading. So I think that, Both of those things are true in terms of what do we want to sort through. I think that one of the reasons why this is kind of like, when I give advice to various news organizations and so on, I say, look, don't try to hold out for money on the training side of things.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
because we're gonna create synthetic data, we're gonna do all kinds of other things that are gonna mean that no one's particular data is really going to matter. What you should be is on freshness, on brand, on other things, and we should work out ongoing sustaining economic arrangements like that. That would be my two cents suggestion for it. And I do think we wanna design an ecosystem
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
that includes that, and when I was involved in those conversations at OpenAI, they agreed with that. Microsoft certainly agrees with that in terms of how do we make sure that economics are fairly apportioned and so forth for what we're doing for this phase of, and ongoing, but there's a current new technological wave that's coming, and how do you do that?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So that's a messy answer, but unfortunately it's a messy subject.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, the thing I think that's happened was, you know, very early days, you had things like, you know, we're doing an agent and if Pi had launched before ChatGBT, it'd probably be in a different circumstance, but like ChatGBT got the, oh my God.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Pi is the inflection agent, yeah. And so by the time that Pi, we got the trend right and the interest of the market right, but we got the timing, you know, too late, happens with startups. So it was like, okay, we need to pivot. We need to pivot from a B2C model to a B2B.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And we have a unique model, but let's sell that to other people who already have audiences, because we're not going to be able to easily grow our audience. And then, you know, once we had that as a conversation, there were employees like, well, we want to do the direct agent thing, and that's what we want to do. And maybe we'll go somewhere in order to do that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And we're like, okay, how do we fund this? And how do we make that work? And how do we make it work for investors? And we said, hey, there's a deal structure that could work, which is with a kind of outside party, you can get paid enough in a non-exclusive IP license and an ability to selectively hire folks. And then you can dividend some of that out to investors.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So investors get back kind of a 1X and then kind of an ongoing position. So as investors, it's great to have a kind of optionality on its B2B business in order to play that out. And this is a structure that works for everybody in this pivot to B2B. And that's essentially the structure that we did. I see.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And David's was this kind of like maniacal focus on the kind of the cycle of how the product worked on eBay. And like, there was just a whole bunch of stuff I learned from him. It's part of how I track, you know, kind of you know, people I respect is what do I learn from them? And that was one of the things that I would say I learned from David at PayPal. That's nice.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So it was funny, because I kind of made an off-the-cuff, you know, kind of remark about Lena Kang, which turned into a whole news cycle.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I'm like, no, because I don't believe in that kind of corruption of politics. The only way she's going to learn about it is either she asks me or she watches this television show. And so... So she's done a good job on the price cartels, she's done a good job on the anti-competes, both of which I think are very good for competitive markets.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
The problem is I think she has a misunderstanding of these large tech companies. And for example, on the M&A thing, her theory is you gotta prevent the aggregation of power, so you gotta fight every acquisition of note. And the problem, of course, is that actually quells venture capital investment.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's just like, okay, part of the returns is if I'm going to invest in something that might be competing with one or more of the large tech companies, I need to have acquisition exits as part of being able to fund enough capital to really make that acquisition, that investment possible. Because if it doesn't work, I want to be able to at least recover my capital by an investment.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So the right way to look at it is, is there competition amongst the top tech companies. Because if one of them is like squashing all the other ones, that's a problem. If we're five large tech companies heading to three, then I'm much more sympathetic to our point of view. But we're actually five heading to 10, right? Or five to seven heading to 12.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Because like Nvidia is now in the mix and others I think are coming in the mix.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Yes, and so you have this ability. So the thing is, is they're competing on the acquisitions just like they're competing in the marketplace.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And if you're trying to quell the whole thing, because your theory is like they should just, you know, the startup should just be able to grow up to compete, that actually means that those will never get the capital that they need in order to do that, which means you're actually having the opposite of your intent, right? What you're doing is you're actually making there be less competition
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Because, you know, capitalists can't say, if I'm gonna put 100 million, 500 million, a billion dollars into this company, I at least have a chance of getting my capital back, or I can possibly create a competitor. And that's the reason I was speaking out against it as an expert. It was interesting.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think it's TBD. But the reason I'd take the opposite point of view and say no, the thesis for no is that they are very strong American companies that get, in most cases, over half the revenue from overseas. They create technology platforms that beneficially differentiate the US versus many other countries in kind of global circumstances like the internet and other kinds of things.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think that they are competing ferociously with each other. You know, Jason just mentioned that, you know, it's kind of like, look, we've already got like chat GPT competing with Google search and other kinds of things. And I think it's competitive pressure, right? This is, I think what capitalism is about is competitive pressure that essentially creates the thing.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And that's the reason why, like, if it's, if, if we were shrinking, like it was Google Uber Alice, or I actually frankly think that the, Everyone likes to talk about Google. I think the prime candidate is likely to be, and I'm speaking as an individual and as a venture capitalist here, is Apple with the App Store, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Yeah, no, for sure. And look, especially when, you know, we all know it's nonsense. It's like, look, you could just give the consumers the option to allow sideloading. You could just say, it's technically very simple to do. And you can say, look, we don't want you to sideload because we view it to be safety and security, but we're giving you the option, right? Fine, give people the option, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Right.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So I think in mandating breakups... you know, like I think is a, look, I think we should operate through competitive networks and competitive ecosystems. I think it's part of what's smart about capitalism. And I think mandating breakups is only when essentially capitalism is failing on specific things. You wanna do the least,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
the least you can to get back to competitive networks in terms of how you're operating. And so when you say, hey, look, iOS has this kind of monopoly, and you say there's no side loading, you have to use App Store, you have to use the payment mechanism, et cetera, et cetera, it's like, well, that quells a ton of startup innovation.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
We all know this as investors, because we look at anyone who's prospectively doing a business like this and say, no chance, you're not going to succeed. And so then you say, well, what's the least thing that we can do, right? And, you know, a classic Andy Truss was like, well, let's break off the app store from Apple as well, right? Unclear that that would really fully work.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
You know, that's like socialism mandating how the thing should work. Let's try to get it so that we allow competition to determine these things. And like, for example, saying, hey, like you have to allow consumers the option of sideloading. You have to allow consumers the option of installing an alternative app store, right? Like that kind of stuff. I think, you know, what's the minimal set?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think that's the kind of intervention we want to have because I think there's all kinds of benefits that come from- But why do you think that the case against Apple has made less progress than the case against Google? I think it's less politically easy, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's kind of like everybody loves their iOS phone and there's less of a blue and red kind of combo tackle where the blue feet people are like, hate big companies. Apple's less offensive, basically. Yes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, like most of us, I was pretty dismayed by the debate performance.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Because when I talked to him, detailed, thoughtful analysis with no notes on Gaza, questions about AI, and what kinds of things, what did I think about what the progress, the thing they were doing with the voluntary commitments, the executive order, and what kinds of things should happen in the future, and all that kind of stuff, being on the game a little slower, Right.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Then then, you know, a 50 year old would be. But but, you know, like cogent and totally worth it. And then you kind of looked at the debate, oh my gosh, this is a disaster. And so it was like, look, is the debate a one-off thing? Were you ill?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Like trying to reconcile the two and spent a little bit of time trying to figure that out to what was going on because it was the first time I'd seen something like that. And, you know, you know, I don't you know, I'm not enough of a D.C.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
insider to know exactly what the set of conclusions were other than I, you know, I plotted, you know, Biden for having the kind of integrity to go, look, I'm maybe I'm ill, maybe I'm old, maybe I'm slower, but. You know, it's about the country more than it's about me because I'm, you know, not, you know, it's important to be about the country, not about yourself. I'll step aside.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And ultimately, it's a decision. There's nothing that anyone can force. Pelosi couldn't force it on anyone else. It's ultimately his decision. He came to that decision. So, you know, I applaud that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, it's hard to know. I mean, I think they were definitely leaning towards an open primary, and then all the people who would be the most natural contenders all endorsed Kamala. And by the way, you say, well, kind of democratic process. It was like, well, there was a democratic process that picked the Biden-Harris ticket, which turned into the Harris-Waltz ticket.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And so that's not anti-democratic. But I think if you look at the sequence of events, it was kind of like, well, you know, we're going to sort out, you know, what we're going to do. And then, you know, all of the key folks, you know, Shapiro and Whitmer and everyone else all endorsed Kamala. I was like, okay, let's just, let's get back to, you know, kind of the choice of two candidates.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And so I, you know.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, I mean, from post fact, seems not, right? With the level of kind of energy and all the rest, it seems that with the pure polling and kind of level energy and kind of what's going on. They're happy with what they got. Yeah, they're happy with what they got.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
so for the president for the president yes we do live in a republic all right and there are there is various like you know some people have much more influence than others um whether it's media platforms whether it's um you know economics and ability to spend whether it's you know a history and a brand and and and other things and so you know this melee and and and kind of
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
you know, whole integration set of things. Now, ultimately, you know, voters are going to decide in November, right? So, you know, people do have a, you know, and I think that staying to our democratic process is what's really key. Like, you know, people go on the polls.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
You know, I think we should want to live in a country where everyone does, you know, everyone who is legally allowed to vote does vote. And I think that that's you know, ultimately a good thing. Now, you know, are there things that I would like to change? Sure. I'd like to change. I'd like to have ranked choice voting. You know, I'd like to have open primaries.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
There's a set of things like, like actually my principal frustration in all of this stuff is, you know, what's, what's one of the fundamental things that the two parties agree on that, that, that, that shouldn't be is that there should be only two parties. Right. And I think that's, I think that's something that you, you need to fix and you can't fix it
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's the Will Rogers line. It's politics is the art of saying nice doggy while you hunt for a stick.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Unfortunately, I think with independent candidates, because the whole system is really set up for kind of two parties and independent candidates are almost always spoilers one way or the other. I mean, like on the RFK stuff, I understand there was a bunch of Democrats who were trying to prevent him from getting on the ballot.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I actually prefer him on the ballot because I actually think his anti-vax stance really fit very well. with Trump. And so I think he was going to take more from Trump.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I wouldn't be surprised if we look at all the money that goes to all the different organizations, if Organization X kind of had some kind of ballot thing. My voice and instruction was always like, no, no, no, don't do that. That's anti-democratic. But you can't control everything just like you invest in a company and CEO sometimes the dumb ass that you can't do anything about.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think it's, I frankly think that everyone who follows the legal process to get on the ballot should be on the ballot, and we should follow the legal process. I'm very much of a legal process kind of person. What I'm opposed to is calling Raffensperger and asking for 11,000 votes, which is not legal. So yeah, sure, is that bad, and do I advocate against it? The answer is absolutely yes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
But it's – follow the legal process.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, but you want them to remove RFK from the ballot.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I'm just trying to figure out.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Can't you agree with that? Look, yes, fundamentally from a viewpoint of like, for example, my direct actions, and yes, you fund a whole bunch of different groups and you have different groups doing different things, but you funded them to do this thing that you were thinking of and things happen. It's just like companies.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
My thing was actually, in fact, making people aware of RFK's anti-vax statement, his anti-science stuff, because I thought that would be relevant in the polls in November. That was the actual strategy that I believe. And I think that would differentially hit Trump more. And so, therefore, it would be a spoiler. right, as these independents are.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, part of it is that, and this is, you know, among the things I was learning from Peter, was that Peter and Max recruited just a tremendous focus on intense learning curves. So it was one of the things that Peter later was like, okay, I guess you have to interview for being on sports teams and so forth, because this teamwork thing does matter, but like high performers.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
By default, I would oppose it. I don't know any of the details.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So I know Josh Shapiro. I think he's great. I've broken bread with him and he was meaningfully considered. I think we should be so lucky that he would run for presidency someday, some year. I actually didn't know Walt at all and was initially kind of surprised because I was like, oh, I thought it was probably going to be Shapiro.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I was like, well, I think it was probably a close call down to those two. And it looks like in making decisions, I think Harris made a good decision with Waltz. So I think it's a... Now, on the anti-Semitism topic, I do worry that
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
you know, broadly, we're seeing, you know, kind of more rise of anti-Semitism and that's extremely important to fight, you know, because I think, and I think there are people in the, you know, it's a weirdly like, there's some lefties who are doing it and there's some righties who are doing it. It's both a blue and a red issue in different shape. And I think it's very important that we,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
you know, we stand against that as a country. And so, you know, I've been, you know, kind of mostly just trying to say, hey, look, we gotta be anti-racism, anti-Semitism, and also anti-genocide. And we gotta figure that out.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
What'd you think of her handling of that? I think that's rational, right? Like you should be anti-genocide both of Palestinians and of Jews. Right. And and like it's obviously a very, very thorny topic. Yes. Right. So so I think, you know, saying that I'm going to try to protect civilians on both sides, anti-genocide, I think that's a human caring place to be looking out for people.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And it was kind of like a, and that was part of the reason why there was such intense learning curves you know, kind of innovation and capability. You know, probably the most stunning memory I had at PayPal is we, you know, we're all young, we're all, first time we're kind of doing a startup that matters, you know, kind of making this stuff happen.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Look, I think we should speak out against both the far left and the far right. I think it's important to do both. you know, since, you know, I'm playing the Democrat here on this conversation, I'll ask you guys to play the, or especially Sachs, play the Republican and speak out against the far right too. But the short answer is, yes, there are amongst the extreme left, that's not everybody in the
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
misunderstandings about why it's important to defend anti-genocides like, from the river to the sea. It's like, yeah, that's a genocidal statement. Don't use that one. Understand what language you're using. And to be like, look, we've had a great genocidal moment with World War II, and we're still trying to recover from it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Two, questions around what I think is a foolish wealth tax, even though it's, by the way, narrow to like 80%. And then on the price gouging stuff, you know, one of the things is I started scratching at it, you know, it was interesting. I think this week Kroger said, yes, we did actually artificially raise prices to profit from the pandemic, you know, and yeah, you should stop price gouging.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's not quite the same thing as price capping. And apparently there's laws that affect even in Florida, right. Or in Texas where some of, you know, you guys are living. So like, it's kind of interesting. It's like, okay, I need to understand this issue in more depth, but I don't think it's as simplistic as the political headlines are having it.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Look, I agree that you have to have good monetary policy. And so I think we probably agree on that. And I think some printing of money is part of the normal functioning economy, but too much is...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
is bad and I don't think look I think price it look part of the reason why we just talked about antitrust stuff earlier you do have to look at places where there's a there's a possibility of kind of commanding stuff from your your privileged position and like you know the like I want to go we all agree we all agree that monopolies have to be controlled no no no debate there but that's not what's caused the inflation right because we've had inflation of commodities not just monopoly products but commodities like just food staples eggs you know
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And we do this merger with x.com and, you know, like pre the merger closing, You know, Elon is saying, oh, I got this CEO, Bill Harris. He's the best ever. That's part of the reason why you should give so much percentage of the company to x.com and the merger, you know, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Yeah, and look, I, generally speaking, as I was saying earlier, I'm like, make sure the network sorts it out versus centralized control. Totally, totally. So it's kind of like you have to look at, is there a place where you're going, okay, that's the reason I focused, her words were price gouging.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And if you're focused on the kind of gouging side of it is like, oh, there might be a market inefficiency that you're essentially correcting, then that's I think the same kind of thing we were talking about with like the FTC and the Apple App Store and so forth. If it's like the, I'm just gonna set a fixed price on eggs, right? That's a bad idea.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And by the way, there's bad ideas like the wealth tax thing that I disagree with. Her economic thing also had housing, which I think is a good kind of thing to kind of lower costs for Americans and kind of make that kind of stable work. Like, I think she's been good on immigration.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think the Langford Cinema bill, which was from the Republican side, was something they were fully prepared to endorse. And Trump killed it because he wanted to campaign on it. It's like, look, we care about the actual running in the country. I think there's a bunch of good things, but if you said, do I defend price capping? The answer is not as an independent principle by itself.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And by the way, are there people lefties? Like, you know, a lot of what Elizabeth Warren says about capitalism, I disagree with, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, as I understand it, on that tax as it's proposed, is you have to have 80% of your net worth liquid.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Look, I think it's definitely a quelling impact and it's definitely stupid and definitely shouldn't happen. Okay. So it's stupid.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And then after the merger, literally the first meeting I had with Elon is Bill Harris is a complete disaster. We need to fire him right away. Like before we get to the first board meeting, we need him fired. And I'm like, Uh, Elon, you need to talk to Peter about this.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
But one thing, by the way, look, in the spirit of the All In podcast, I wanted to be clear about like there's stuff on the Dems and some of their economic policy for the far left people that, you know, kind of, you know, they're advocating for that I'm opposed to. You know, Sachs, I'd love to hear from you what parts of Trump's thing you're opposed to. Here we go.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And why? Look, the information did an actual data poll as opposed to us being talking heads saying, we say that Silicon Valley does X or Y. And the information's poll showed that there was much broader support for the Democratic ticket than the Republican ticket.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think where that came from. But the information, a news source that ran a poll, did it objectively, ran the whole thing to try to answer the question, came out with more folks in favor of the Biden-Harris ticket than Trump did. Why do you think that is? I believe that. Why do you think that is? Well, because look, taxes is an important issue.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I think if you ask any Silicon Valley business person, they say, look, lower capital gains, promote long-term investment. Ask me, that's what I would say too. But you kind of go, well, what actually, in fact, you most need for business is stability, rule of law, not grifter capitalism, where it's like, give me an ability to launch my own NFT, et cetera, et cetera.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
That's what they go, we want that. And by the way, we can navigate a higher tax rate. It'll be less fast on growth and everything else, but we can still invest, create businesses, et cetera, et cetera. But we can't do it with kind of a corroding the rule of law. Like, you know, I think both, David, both you and Chamath spoke out against the January 6th stuff. I'm curious where you're on that now.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's still top of mind for me. That's the reason why the kind of the rule of law thing is my red line, not a tax policy.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, it's kind of not relevant whether or not I did or not. What I funded was an ability to have, you know, kind of a woman who doesn't have power, who's being threatened by a rich man with a lot of money and power to try to silence her, to have her day in court where 12 everyday Americans can come to a judgment.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And their judgment was that there was an assault and there was slander about the assault. And they did it twice. And so that was the reason I funded it. And I think that that's important. The laws apply more importantly to rich and powerful people than it does to poor people. That's the important about, the one thing I love about America is a rule of law system.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I think that's what's most important and that's what's really fundamental. That's my red line relative to the kind of lines in the sand that we're talking about. And that's the reason why in the various kind of lawsuits that seem to be that that's what's being emphasized, then I'm happy to support them.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
So, look, I think it's, you know, it's definitely possible to have some versions of law affair, although I think most people use the term when it's the legal process and the law enforcement that they don't like. You know, I think that in the Bragg case, you had, you know, an indictment and 12 jurors. There's jurors, I think, as I recall, one of the jurors said he got
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
That juror got their principal news from Truth Social. It was a unanimous conviction. I think that you have Vice President Pence who comes out and says, Trump asked me to overturn the election illegally. That's your own vice president. So I don't think that that kind of suggests that there's this rampant political persecution, that there's a lot of fire where there's all this smoke.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It doesn't mean that every single thing
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think if he broke laws that says he should go to jail, I think the laws apply to powerful people as much as they apply to everyday people, right?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Actually, I don't think if you look at the – look, speaking factually, Trump's lawyers are always trying to delay the stuff, right? I think they were trying to follow every legal process and Trump's lawyers keep asking for deferrals.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Look, after January 6th – This was last year and the year before, asking for deferrals, setting out trial times. Like all of the stuff was from his side trying to delay it. If it got delayed into this year, that's a bad judgment on his part.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Okay, Reid, your thoughts? So, look, the first thing is January 6th, I think, is a red line. I think it's you did incite a riot, whether or not the legal process for it. Let's let Reid finish. Yeah. You know, I was fair enough. Go ahead.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Right. So I think it was the, you know, there was an incitement of a riot. I think that the rioters went in and, you know, killed police officers, were looking to kill Vice President Pence. You know, from the court testimony, courts are the best proxy that we have for finding truth in this stuff.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's one of the reasons why, you know, by the way, and when, for example, the Supreme Court says, no, that's great. That's legal process.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I think there was one died from his injuries very soon after.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's just not true. Well, and then there's the one who committed suicide, too, which is a question of causation. I don't know how you can attribute that. Yeah. So anyway, so you got the, you know, the storming of the Capitol. You know, he says these people are American heroes. He's going to pardon them. He's going to hire them into his administration. Right.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And if that's not encouragement for other people doing similar things, you know.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, we'll get you the Trump speech. There's all kinds of wonderful things in Trump speeches.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
I'm fine to do it. I mean, it's... Totally your choice. Yeah. It's one of the things I like about your all-in podcast is, you know, kind of like, let's try to speak truth. Okay.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
We have not. Pleasure to meet you. Likewise. Pleasure.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, I got asked that question unsurprisingly by many public market investors over the year. And I basically told them and say, hey, look, it's sustainable for two years, which for you guys means forever. Yeah. Eight full quarters. Yes, exactly. So that's infinity, right, in terms of time.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
You know, NVIDIA has a very sharp, you know, kind of lead on the importance of the chips for the training clusters. You know, they're effective on inference. But I do think that as you kind of scale the demand, there'll be a lot of inference chips coming in. You know, I think... Chamath, you're invested in one of those.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I think there's going to be a bunch of those kind of coming in and the bulk of the demand will be on the inference side. And then NVIDIA will have this challenge of, do I try to keep my prices and my margin? Or do I do what, why we like competition? Do I have to respond to the competitive market?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And then that I think will play out, you know, start playing out probably in a year, two at the latest. and then kind of go. So I think it's not sustainable. The pure heat is not sustainable, but I think it's, you know, NVIDIA's got a very strong position and, you know, I definitely, I would recommend people not be short on NVIDIA. Yeah.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Well, one, board members speaking for Microsoft is forbidden. So I'm not speaking for Microsoft, just speaking for me.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
It's just one of the principles in the Microsoft thing is the company speaks for itself, board members don't speak for them. But I think Satya is the best public market CEO of our generation. I think he is stunning in kind of blending common combination of strategic insight with also kind of being kind of return on capital, sensible risk taking, et cetera.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
The actual thing between your guys' questions in terms of, because I can comment on how Satya thinks with this stuff, is he's both thinking about it's a platform change and you have to be there for the platform change, for productivity, for cloud, et cetera. And, okay, let's rationalize the capital to when are we expecting revenue?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
How do we get revenue sooner to have that as a good productive cycle? How do we be not trying to just spend like drunken sailors, which is easy to do, but to be targeting business outcomes.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And it's part of the reason why he's very focused on what are we doing with Office, what are we doing with Cloud, what are we doing with... As opposed to... You rarely hear him talking about AGI or never digital gods because it's kind of the question of I am focused on this in a business sense. And I think that's kind of the way he's doing it. But there is obviously a...
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
you know, kind of a, it's hard to predict the future when it's novel and unknown in platforms. And it's part of the reason why you have all the hyperscalers now, you know, kind of fully engaged and intelligently engaged.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Because if you say, well, if even it's just the new platform by which, you know, kind of software, everything with a computer unit in it, whether it's a phone or a speaker or a computer or anything else, Anything with a kind of a CPU or a GPU gets more intelligent. You can't miss out on that platform. And so that's, I think, the thing that's motivating everybody.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
But it's obviously how to do that smart is one of the things that everybody is, I'd say, obsessing about every week.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Yeah. Look, from the very founding of OpenAI, I was never claiming it was going to be open source. I was claiming it was going to be one safety open access and not differential or controlling access for that. And I think they've stayed true to that principle, which is, I think, what the genesis of the word open is there.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And look, I think the key thing is there's going to be winners all over the place. I think there's going to be winners in the open source side.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I don't know if Lama is going to win from its open source thing as much as it's just trying to say, hey, we're training these models, so we're going to put them out there because our closed system, closed loop, doesn't require selling for tokens and so forth. But there's also Mistral and other folks who are doing competent models
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And then I think that the, but you know, there'll be wins in different ways. So it's not like, I think like for example, you know, I think there's going to be a bunch of different startups they're going to win, whether it's coding agents or, you know, kind of very specific applications within medical or other kinds of things. And I think they will, you know, generate big companies.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And I think large companies like, you know, the hyperscalers are going to succeed as well. Now in the pure model competition, The question is, when do we start seeing a asymptote to scale? And my guess is, and kind of the GPT landmarks is each order of magnitude, my guess is the soonest will be GPT-6. And it may even be after that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
And that's part of what the bet that OpenAI and Anthropic and the hyperscalers are all making is that that return to scale. And then that has a lot of downstream effects because even if you say we can train smaller models to do effective things, part of what's going to be really instrumental for training those smaller models is the larger models.