Lulu Garcia Navarro
Appearances
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
So from the review of my book, there's been a steady evolution of thought amongst the public, even on Wall Street, about what I've been saying, what the president has been saying, what others in our camp have been saying. And I guess I'm mainstream now. That's scary. Yeah.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
So I'm pleased to see you after four long years of exile.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
Tariffs do not cause inflation when they're imposed by the largest market in the world. And that has been demonstrated by the fact that we aggressively imposed tariffs during the first term. We had zero inflation as a result.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
Let's do this. So who are the studies by?
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
All the ones that were wrong about Trump, you know, like the biggest... Ones that you don't believe in and that you kind of felt... Well, but I think it's fair, Anna, for you to go back and look at those analyses who said it and then look what they said, for example, when Trump came into office and how they predicted there would be chaos and
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
recession, inflation, stagnation that has never happened. I think my point here is that the academic community can't be trusted to critique Trump economics. And they have a credibility problem because they've been crying this wolf. They did it all through the first term. None of that happened. They're just wrong. We're right. They're wrong. End of story.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
I actually listen to The Daily. I have it on my podcast.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
It's the American people who've borne the brunt of this for going on, what, 40 years now. How many times do you have to be told by politicians and corporate flacks that this free trade stuff's good for you? And then you lose your job and your community falls down around you for you to stop believing them. I mean, you know, that's why Trump got elected in 2016.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
All right, let's walk through that, okay? There's a rhyme to the reason why we did that.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
Here's the thing. We are the biggest market in the world. which gives us buying power, okay? So particularly export-dependent economies, the Chinas of this world, who heavily rely on Americans buying their products, if that becomes more difficult to do, what's the first thing these countries are going to do in response to tariffs? What are they going to do? We slap a tariff on.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
What are the producers over there going to do? What are they going to do? Tell me.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
You're a producer over there, and suddenly tariffs are up, and you've got to compete with an American producer. What are you going to do?
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
That's exactly what they do. It's not an assumption. That's just a fact.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
So here's one of the iron laws of manufacturing. If manufacturing goes abroad, the supply chains follow and vice versa. Okay.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
So you want us here? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
You can have a domestic investment come quickly.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
You see wages go up, and that gives consumers more spending power and offsets any rise in prices. If real wages rise faster than any other types of inflation, people are still better off.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
When I was a campaign advisor in 2016, I had a mantra. It was tax cuts, deregulation, strategic energy dominance, fair trade. Those were the four components, the tires on the car towards economic prosperity.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
that we're trying to accomplish, that President Trump is trying to accomplish, is more stable and resilient supply chains, which we have learned to be an enormous problem in the wake of the pandemic. So that's a major national security and economic security risk.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
We get screwed. by everyone and we could afford it in the 1950s. We can't afford it. That's the thing the rest of the world needs to understand. It's like when they want to come to Uncle Sam for support, for democracy, if we don't have manufacturing in the defense industrial base because it all got exported because people are cheating us on trade, We're not going to be there.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
And that's why in the first term when President Trump said economic security is national security, it was a very important message and foundation for the way we here in Trump land think about things.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
It's not going to be painful for America. It's going to be a beautiful thing. President Donald John Trump has proven that tariffs work for the American people. And they're going to be even more, much more important this second term. This is all set in motion now, Ana. So... Stay tuned.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
The... It went from being kind of a Democrat to being a Trump Republican. And the reality is that there's not much difference between that. The traditional Democratic Party was a lot like MAGA in that it was the party of the working class, American manufacturing, blue collar workers. The goal of that party, at least what it said it was, was to
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
Increase the real wages and prosperity of blue collar workers. And I was very comfortable with that. I grew up in a single family household with my mom. We had a hard life. And I identify to this day with the working class.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
I became really intrigued by Thailand and one day as I was thinking that maybe I should go there.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
And I looked over and it was the Peace Corps table.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
Of course, I had to say yes because of the synchronicity of the whole thing. I don't want to get too Californian on you, but that was an interesting moment.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
I mean, the whole ability to see the world from outside the United States, it makes you very humble. And when I came back, it motivated me to go into policy.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
My only goal as mayor was to address the problems of traffic congestion, the overcrowded schools. the awful sewage system. I mean, it was a populist campaign, just at the local level on a different set of issues. I mean, I sometimes joke I was like mini-Trump before Trump.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
I was the macroeconomist teaching business students how to forecast the economy. And in about 2002 and 2003, I began to notice that the business students who were in the fully employed program were losing their jobs. And it was like, what's going on here?
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
Like currency manipulation, like counterfeiting and piracy, the use of pollution havens, things like that.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
Oh, it's just, you know, it's just radical, crazy guy, you know, this kind of thing, right? And I thought, look, these people don't get it, except among all of the corporations and unions and plain old folk that were getting just hammered by that. It's like, okay, let's keep going on this. And I'm thinking, you know what? People...
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
read books but not a lot of them anymore so let's do the movie and then he also creates a documentary which is narrated by martin sheen and it was the same kind of reaction hollywood and it's like oh you're exaggerating stuff
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
When I did my Death by China movie I went to Dayton and I saw the people who would otherwise be in factories walking around with shopping carts, stealing copper out of homes and buildings, whatever they could, and then going and using the money to get high.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
President Trump, the way we intersected was through an interview, interestingly enough, that he did for the Los Angeles Times in 2011.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
And he proceeded to do something I'm not sure I could even do. He listed his top 10 books by title and author. And I was number six, the Coming China Award.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
What I try to do is see problems and solve them. And the problem I saw crystal clear is the unfair trade that was driving up these large trade deficits. and shutting down our factories and creating just all sorts of misery for blue-collar workers.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
It was always the same, like Mnuchin and Cohn and Kudlow and all these people, they just didn't buy in. And the defining moment for me in terms of when I finally was able to, um, began doing what the president wanted me to do, it was about four months in, and he made the famous where's my Peter call.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
It's like he's sitting around with these guys, four months in, nothing's happening at all, and he goes, where's my Peter? I go over there, and I have this like battle with Cohn and whatever, and then some months later, I'm able with Wilbur Ross to get the steel and aluminum tariffs in, and Cohn leaves like a crying little baby in a huff.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
So just to clarify, I went to prison not because I didn't want to cooperate with an investigation, but because it was my duty— as a senior White House official, to refuse to appear when issued an unlawful congressional subpoena. That case is being litigated. It was unfortunate. They put me in prison until they should have waited until my appeal ran its course.
The Daily
A Conversation With the Architect of Trump's New Trade War
But I want to be really clear about why I went to prison. I was defending the Constitution. Now, to your point,
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
All right. I want to talk a little bit about the Democrat strategy more broadly. Last month, you said in an interview that Trump will screw up.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Do you really think, though, that there's something that will move the needle for either Republican legislators or voters? I ask because that feels like a familiar argument against the president. Surely this will be the final straw for someone.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I'm sure. Yes, it's not a sight you want to see. Before we move on from this, I do want to ask you about the last election, especially around President Biden's decision to run for a second term. Yes. Did you know about President Biden's declining faculties before that disastrous debate?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
And if you didn't know, why didn't you know? Was it because they were keeping him secluded?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
There have been allegations of a cover-up. What do you say to those allegations?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I want to come back to your book. That's good. Senator, Jews in America have always been closely allied to the Democratic Party. Yes. But Trump in this past election clearly saw an opening to win some of them over. And it does seem like the events of the past year and a half have shifted things for American Jews.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Do you think the political landscape has changed in any lasting way when you look at sort of that alliance?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
And it cost him.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
There is this big debate, though, about where the line is between anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of Israel's government. I mean, where is that line for you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I know.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
No, please.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I can see how passionate you feel about this issue.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I will say it's a word that a UN special committee has used.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I'm curious how you think about how protests then should be addressed, considering the context of what you just said. The Trump administration just announced they're pulling $400 million in funding from Columbia University, giving the reason is, quote, relentless violence, intimidation and anti-Semitic harassment. I'm wondering what you make of that.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
And what do you make of what happened over the weekend when ICE arrested Mahmoud Khalil, a Columbia graduate who is Palestinian, an activist, and a green card holder, who was one of the few participants in last year's campus protest to identify himself publicly? And apparently Trump has made good on his campaign pledge and is set to deport him because of his participation.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
What does breaking the law mean to you in this context?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
That sounds easy, but when we're talking about the right to protest, which you were a part of, breaking the law, not breaking the law, those things can be weaponized for political purposes, right? You can arrest political protesters, put them in prison, but they're actually taking part in what is their constitutionally protected right.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I want to ask about your own state, which has been seen as a bit of a bellwether these days for some of the political currents in the country. As you know, this past election, Trump improved on his 2020 numbers by six points in New York State, including a seven-point shift in New York City. What do you make of that drift?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Throughout your career, you've talked about this fictional couple.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
The Bailey's, Joe and Eileen. And you think of them as sort of your representative voter, constituent. You said the Bailey's voted for Trump in 2016. They split Trump-Biden in 2020. I'm wondering who they voted for in 2024.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
So what do you got to do to get them back?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
The direction of his party, how Democrats are communicating their opposition to President Trump, and also, on a more personal note, his fears about the rise of anti-Semitism in America. Schumer's written a new book on that topic. It's called Anti-Semitism in America, A Warning. It's part history, part memoir.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I mean, little things— But there's also cultural issues, aren't there?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Well, it brings me to Mayor Eric Adams, the embattled mayor of New York City. He was indicted last year on federal charges of bribery and fraud, among other things. February, the Trump administration directed prosecutors to dismiss the charges against him in an apparent quid pro quo, leading to these extraordinary series of resignations at the Justice Department and the U.S. Attorney's Office.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Do you think Eric Adams should resign?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Well, but Eric Adams is a sitting mayor. So this isn't about a primary. This is about someone who is going through very serious allegations against him and the Trump administration getting involved in that.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
And it's your home state.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
All right. Let me ask you this about Andrew Cuomo. Just in this way, he obviously is another very controversial figure in democratic politics in your state. And he recently entered the New York City mayoral race. So it brings up a philosophical question about his candidacy, which is not really about him, but the kind of politician that he is.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
No. Because I think there's a wider issue here, which is he's pulling far ahead of the rest of the pack at this point. And I wonder what you think his popularity says about what kind of Democrat voters can get behind right now. I mean, do Democrats need to run candidates that are more like Trump?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
you know
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. I spoke to Senator Chuck Schumer of New York twice last week, in what turned out to be quite a week for the Senate minority leader. In our first conversation, we talked about a lot of things.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Since our first conversation, Senator Schumer has released a statement about Mahmoud Khalil, writing that if the Trump administration's Department of Homeland Security can't show that there are criminal charges against Khalil, they are violating the First Amendment and should let him go. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew. And Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Reid Epstein, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash theinterview. And you can email us anytime at theinterview at nytimes.com.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Next week, David talks to Dr. Lindsay Gibson, author of the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, which has gone viral on social media.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I'm also not sure that everyone understands the important relationship between Jews and the United States itself. What did you want people to understand about the way American Jews feel about their place here and the way that that's changing?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I hope I did. You did write it in your book, but it's true. It is a very good summation of Jewish holidays. You know, we seem to be at a moment in American life where issues of identity have become very charged. When you were entering politics, how did you navigate how much to make Jewishness part of your brand in your life? Not that much.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
And in it, he tracks the long record of prejudice against Jews in the world and its recent surge here at home. That was Monday. When we spoke again on Saturday afternoon, it was after an extraordinary few days in Congress where Democrats had to decide whether or not to vote for a Republican federal spending bill or allow a government shutdown.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Who was that?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
You just mentioned this idea of inauthenticity when you were talking about recruiting. And you wrote that in the book. You said voters can smell inauthenticity the way bloodhounds track assent. Yeah. And it did bring to mind the situation Democrats find themselves in at the moment. Do Democrats have an authenticity problem?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
But you know that's not how the American people views the Democratic Party right now.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I've heard this from Democrats before, though. This isn't new. I mean, I think that that is something that has always been the rallying cry of Democrats against Republicans.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
House Democrats had voted in near unanimity against the bill. Schumer initially said that he would as well, but in a shocking about-face on Friday, he joined Republicans and it passed. The aftermath has been brutal and led to open warfare in the party and questions about Schumer's future as its leader. So when I called him back, we had a lot to discuss.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I am glad you brought this up. What I'm hearing you say is that you need to get back to the original message that Democrats have had.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
There is a sense, though, that whatever messaging Democrats are doing right now is either too little, too late, or, to use a little bit of Internet speak, a little cringe. I mean, I've noticed a discernible increase in the way party leadership, including you, is attempting to use social media since the election. Yeah, you are. With more direct-to-camera videos, more explainers.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
It feels so that it's coming from consultants. I use that word again, authenticity, isn't it?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
So all these things helped them win.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
As you know, you got a rough ride because of your protests that you had. I know.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
What did you think about that? Whose idea was that?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Here are my two conversations with Senator Chuck Schumer. Senator Schumer, in your book, you write that you rarely faced anti-Semitism when you were growing up in Brooklyn. What was the moment that you felt that things changed in this country that made you want to write the book now?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
Former Ohio Representative Tim Ryan called it depressing, wrote it on X. Is it Saturday Night Live or Real Life?
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
I guess it brings in just this wider concern that I've heard from Democratic voters. You know, there's real grief, anxiety, worry. I don't have to tell you that. And many feel that Democratic leadership are operating with an old playbook.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
You describe yourself as an institutionalist. You've been a Democratic leader through a period of American politics, though, where the rules were understood. Politicians on both sides of the aisle operated under mostly agreed-upon norms. Yes. And I think it's fair to say that that no longer feels true.
The Daily
'The Interview': Chuck Schumer on Democrats, Antisemitism and His Shutdown Retreat
So are you the right person to lead the party at this moment as someone who basically championed the rules-based order, which is now fundamentally offensive?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Did you feel during that period that people were turning their back on you? Like, because there had been this big flame out at NBC, that just all that world that you had inhabited had sort of rejected you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
This was the moment when, you've talked about this on your new show, when you sort of decided the mainstream media is not for me.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
When you walked through that door, were you a tough person?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Yeah. I mean, you've talked about finding a third version of Megyn Kelly with your new show, which is on YouTube. Looking at the early days of your show, when you first started, it was very much like you were an anchor on television. And now you look a lot looser. Yes.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
One of the things that you just did, which is a red line for most journalists, is that you showed up at one of Donald Trump's rallies right before the election and you formally endorsed him. Once you endorse a politician on stage at a rally, I don't think you can reasonably be called independent anymore. Or do you see it differently?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
But then going and actively campaigning, standing on stage and, you know, giving him a hug and a kiss. It is different. And I think a lot of people saw you endorsing Trump as caving, as essentially going to where the power is.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
And you know the symbolism of it, of course, which is someone who so famously had been at odds with him that he had done so much to, to publicly stand up and embrace him, was significant to a lot of people.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
I understand the fervor within which you embrace some of his policies. But what you were talking about there was the person himself, the things that he has been accused of, credibly accused of, and what you yourself experienced. I'll give you the perspective on it.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
You really think it's fair game that you as a journalist ask a fair question based on things that he'd said and he put you through that for a whole year? You think that's fair?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
I know there was a time when you were working days as a lawyer and then nights and weekends learning TV journalism. What did you feel that you could do as a journalist that you couldn't do as a litigator?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
I just want to understand something clearly. Donald Trump was found liable for sexual abuse in a civil court. He's been accused by many women.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
There are other women who have. I've interviewed some of them.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Do you see yourself as a journalist still? Or would you not describe yourself like that anymore?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Do you think you could be at Fox now in the way that you were before?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
What's left if that happens? I mean, the way that the algorithms work now is that, I agree with you, they elevate individuals, that you have a personal relationship with them, but you're given more of the same thing that you want, right? So if I like Megyn Kelly, I might get Megyn Kelly-adjacent So however great Megyn Kelly may or may not be, that is a very narrow slice of what's out there.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
After the break, I call Megan back, and she says what we were both thinking.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Hi. Hi. I was thinking a lot about our conversation and you were talking about how you still consider yourself a journalist, even though the way you do the work has sort of changed over time.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
And so I did want to ask you, as someone who supports the president, what you make of the various ways that he attacks the press from calling reporters the enemy of the people to sort of popularizing the term fake news, sometimes calling out individual reporters. What do you make of that dynamic?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
President Trump has chosen a lot of people who are in the media, especially on Fox for his administration. The most high profile, of course, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, whom you worked with, Deputy Director of the FBI Dan Bongino. There are many others. As someone who spent so much time in that world, I'm curious what you make of that. I'm excited about it.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Well, you interviewed him, and it was a fair interview, a tough interview. But you opened it by saying, you know, that he was a friend. You said, I've been really dismayed by the amount of pylon that he's been suffering, and I've been outraged by the unfairness of the media's coverage of the allegations, and that's a direct quote.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
And so I'm curious what you're doing in that interview, because you're setting up the interview— Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
In 2004, you get to Fox. What were your politics then? Did you feel attracted to the news organization because it was conservative, or were you just thinking, this is my way in, it's the big time?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Why do you think that was? Because it was good TV or because he thought they should be challenged?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Kelly built her career in the mainstream media. She spent nearly 15 years at Fox News, where she earned a reputation as one of the channel's sharpest interviewers, before she moved briefly to NBC. But that Trump rally speech was the clearest sign yet that Kelly has moved on to her next chapter.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Last year, on the night before the election, Megyn Kelly did something she'd never done before. She got up on stage at Donald Trump's final campaign rally, and she endorsed him.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
So that approach became one of your hallmarks, this thing of being able to call balls and strikes specifically on a conservative network against conservatives. That was unusual. And in 2015, there was the very famous Republican primary debate, and you had a question for Donald Trump where you asked him to explain why he had called women fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
And then he retaliated against you. His attacks were relentless after that year. You've talked about this a lot, but what I would like to understand in hindsight now, why do you think he came after you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Over the past few years, she's found a new lane for herself in podcasting and on YouTube, where she has a daily talk show that fits squarely into the MAGA-loving media universe.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
You've talked a lot about what a terrible year that was and having to go with armed guards and, you know, having his supporters come after you. Do you have sort of residue from that period?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
It's just one of the reasons why I was so interested to talk to her about her professional evolution, her volatile relationship with President Trump, and what she thinks some people, myself included, don't understand about how the media has changed forever. Here's my conversation with Megyn Kelly. Thank you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
In 2016, you and other female Fox employees accused Roger Ailes of sexual harassment. And again, this is a pretty well-documented time in your life. There was a movie about it. And ultimately, you were instrumental in getting him fired. Did you feel at Fox that people were angry at you because of what you'd done, certain people?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
What was that call with Lachlan like, though, when you called him up and told him?
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
Megan, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because you're really forging this new path. And I think to fully sort of understand your career, I wanted to start early. Before you were a journalist, you were a lawyer at Jones Day, which is one of the toughest, notorious firms out there for being just like a big international law firm that only takes the best of the best.
The Daily
'The Interview': Megyn Kelly Is Embracing Her Bias and Rejecting the 'Old Rules'
I don't want to spend too much time here because I do want to get to today. Because of your comments about blackface and Halloween, ostensibly, there was a lot of other things going on at that moment. But ostensibly, that was the reason that you were arrested.
The Daily
'The Interview': Dr. Lindsay Gibson on What We Owe Our 'Emotionally Immature' Parents
Mm hmm.
The Daily
'The Interview': Dr. Lindsay Gibson on What We Owe Our 'Emotionally Immature' Parents
The only way one succeeds in this medium is by violating all those rules that we used to have in journalism, where you don't really talk about yourself at all. You don't talk about your opinions. You might have a bias. Your only goal is to hide it. It's just a whole new world.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I want to turn to the subject of class. I interviewed J.D. Vance before the election. And, you know, even though your politics are obviously very different than his, your backgrounds do share similar traits. Working class, raised by single mothers, military service in Iraq, went to the Ivy League. And that story of class transition does seem to resonate with voters.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Something I really struggle to reconcile is On the one hand, you have voters saying that the economy and inflation are their top issues, and they feel the pain of price increases, which is completely understandable. On the other hand, under Trump, we now have the richest cabinet in modern history. The world's richest person is gutting the federal government.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Yet polls show the president starting his second term with higher approval ratings than when he began his first term. Mm-hmm. And it sends this confusing message about what the electorate actually wants. You have class as a central part of your story. So why don't you think it's a confusing message?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
So the Democratic message among some Democrats have sort of eat the rich, right? Right.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
That's not the right message.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
So Elon Musk, Donald Trump, are these the people who have actually figured out how to connect with the working class? Yes, yeah.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
And it occurs to me, you're a first-term senator, but you were in the House for about 10 years before that. And you were in Congress during the first Trump administration.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
They're salesmen, essentially.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
And they understand who the client is.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
After the break, I asked Senator Gallego about a contentious issue where he's challenged his party, immigration.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Yeah. So I guess I'm wondering, does this time feel different?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I want to ask you specifically about immigration, which was one of the central issues of the election, as we mentioned, and one that really hurt Democrats. I'm curious how your own story affects your view of the immigration debate. Your parents emigrated from Colombia and Mexico. What was your family's experience with the immigration system?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
As senator, your first vote was for the Lake and Riley Act. You were one of two Democratic co-sponsors of the bill, the other one being John Fetterman of Pennsylvania. Many in the immigrant advocacy community were, shall we say, unhappy with that position. They have criticized the law. They say it raises due process concerns for immigrants.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Another big concern is that it will give states more control over immigration policy, essentially gutting federal authority over that. What was your thinking behind voting for the Lincoln-Raleigh Act?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
This bill does seem to want to change the nature of how immigration is done in this country. And writ large, the architect of this administration's immigration policies is Stephen Miller, who in the past has promoted hardline views by citing the work of white nationalist websites. And that's according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
There does seem to be a strain in this administration that does want to change the makeup of this country.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Do you worry that voters' legitimate concerns about our immigration system are being weaponized for ideological ends?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
So then was it hard for you to cast that vote knowing that context?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Do you blame President Biden for that?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Just understand where you stand on specific issues. For example, should local law enforcement be helping ICE carry out deportations?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Should migrants be sent to Guantanamo, to prisons in El Salvador?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Do you see a shift in how seriously the party is taking this moment?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I think there is a concern that people that get put into these systems, it's sort of like a black hole. It's a legal limbo.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
But not ones that have been in the United States or people who have been caught at sea.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
How have you seen the deportation working in the last three weeks since Trump has taken over?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
You think it's ineffective? Yeah.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Do you take Donald Trump and his administration at face value that what they're interested in doing is deporting criminals as opposed to deporting immigrants?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
As we've discussed, there are concerns about Democrats being too deferential to the more liberal parts of the party. Yes, on immigration, but also gender, LGBTQ rights, DEI, whatever it is. And these are all things that the right has been hammering Democrats on for a while. And it seems to be working.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
So how do Democrats stand for what they believe in without being seen by voters as being outside of the mainstream?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Senator Ruben Gallego, thank you very much.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
That's Senator Ruben Gallego. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Special thanks to Kellen Browning, Ron Hansen, Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dulnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, David talks with Pulitzer Prize-winning science writer Ed Yong about experiencing burnout after his years reporting on COVID and how burning helped him recover.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
And I guess the big question for Democrats is what it means to be an effective opposition party. And I think there are two issues here, right? One is what Democrats should actually do effectively. to counter Trump's actions. And the other is how you should communicate what you're doing. On the first, there is talk of using government spending, which has to be negotiated by March 14th as leverage.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Obviously, the risk is that if there is a shutdown, the Democrats will be blamed for that at a moment when, indeed, the party is trying to beach voters, rebuild itself, communicate that it is a party worth voting for. Is the risk too high?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Democrats, having lost the Senate and the presidency, are struggling to come up with a unified strategy, not only to stop Trump's agenda, but also to win back the voters they need who moved towards him in the election. It's a real moment of soul-searching for the party.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I could see you in your brain changing the word.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I want to take a step back because, as we've mentioned, Democrats are trying to redefine their party. And your victory in a state that Trump won has been framed as possibly offering a model for what kind of message actually works. You outperformed Harris in your state, meaning that you won over some Trump voters. Why do you think that happened?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
So over the next month, I'll be having a series of conversations with influential Democratic politicians to understand their internal debates about the way forward. My first is with Arizona's junior Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego. Gallego's win over Republican Kerry Lake was one of the few bright spots for Democrats in November.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I want to talk through some demographic groups that Democrats really need to win back if they want to be competitive.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. It's been a blizzard of political news over the past few weeks as President Donald Trump and his billionaire backer, Elon Musk, try to remake America's government. From dismantling federal agencies to the mass firing of federal workers, the duo's frenzied efforts are testing both the courts and the opposition.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I mean, men, for example. Yeah. You've been described to me as a bro. And not in a bad way.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
You won Latino men by 30 points in an election that saw Trump dominate that group.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I know men are a very sort of broad group, but what do you think Democrats have misunderstood about men?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I mean, I think one of the difficulties maybe for Democrats is that what you're describing is more traditional values, right? But people vote on value. But are you saying that Democrats should recognize that people want more traditional gender roles?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Be less afraid of that? No.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
A former member of the House, Gallego won in a tight race by overperforming Kamala Harris among key demographics that Democrats have struggled with, especially men and Latinos. Gallego is the son of an immigrant single mother and grew up poor.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
Hmm. You know, after the midterms in 2022, when Democrats did better than expected, many Democrats, and you included, seemed to take away that there wasn't this rightward shift among the Latino community. In fact, you said, and I'm quoting your reporters, we're talking about realignment. There's no effing realignment.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
That's not the word you used. Why did you get it wrong?
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
He eventually went to Harvard and then became a Marine fighting in Iraq and ultimately ended up in politics where he says his story of struggle and success helped him connect to voters. He has a lot of advice for and criticism of Democrats right now, as I discovered when I sat down with him earlier this week in Washington, D.C., Here's my conversation with Senator Ruben Gallego.
The Daily
'The Interview': Senator Ruben Gallego on the Democrats’ Problem: ‘We’re Always Afraid’
I was actually shocked to learn that President Trump was the first sitting president to go to a Super Bowl game.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
You said three ways that you can travel. You can travel as a tourist.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
A traveler. And then the third one was as a pilgrim.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Explain to me the third one. I get the distinction between the first two.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I'm listening to you talk, and the philosophy is beautiful. This idea of communion with the world, with connection with other people. But there is a shift happening in the world right now, I think, towards isolationism, nativism, a fundamental suspicion of difference. We're in a world that travels... More than it ever has. And yet, what seems to be happening is not what you would hope.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And I'm just wondering what you make of those changes.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
But isn't that what a guidebook is ultimately? It's, I mean, they're just placing value on a different thing, which is an image and a place. But I mean, a guidebook points you to a certain direction and tells you this is the thing that you need to go do in this particular place.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
When you reread those diaries, what did it evoke in you when you looked at that 23-year-old with the hindsight of age now?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Do you think social media is ruining travel? I'm thinking about how most people I know, especially younger people, get their travel recommendations from TikTok and from Instagram.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
What did that make you feel?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
We've seen protests in Europe over tourism. In Barcelona, residents this summer were squirting visitors with water guns and chanting things like, tourists go home.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Is there anywhere that you regret having popularized?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
So wait, I'm hearing a lot of different things.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
How do you feel about that transformation? Because there's the good stuff, they're affluent, but then there's the bad stuff that their way of life is changing, which is at the center of this industry that you've given your life to.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
That's so interesting that you have to consider that now.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I am going to talk to you again. But in the time we have left, I want to return to the question of the world and how it's changing. Because you responded to my question about nativism and fear of difference by talking about social media. But I think there's something more fundamental going on.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Perhaps you might be overstating the transformative power of this thing that you do.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
After the break, I call Rick back to ask about what he's sacrificed for a life on the road.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I'm good. How are you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I see that you're at home right now. I want to ask you about your home because you have traveled all over the world, and yet you have always lived in the place where you grew up. Why is that?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Oh, my goodness. That's an amazing view. And indeed, I can see your school.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Most people would not want that memory infused.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Rick, I did want to ask you about something pretty significant in your life. You've been very open about receiving a diagnosis of prostate cancer. How are you doing?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Has it given you more of an urgency to do things you haven't done before?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I just want to stay for a moment with that idea of regret. I mean, what happened, the sacrifices of being on the road so much? Because You have spent such a huge portion of your life going out elsewhere and discovering and exploring.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
So reading this book really brought me back because when I was 23, I went on my own version of the hippie trail. And I went to different countries. I went to Asia. But the thing that changed the course of my life happened there. I was in Vietnam. And it was the 20-year anniversary of the fall of Saigon. And I was not interested in journalism in any way, shape, or form.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Well, it's interesting. You use two different words. One is mission and one is choice. I mean, mission sounds like it's a calling and that it doesn't feel like it's a choice, that it doesn't feel like it's optional.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And it relates to this idea that you have talked about with me, which is of being a pilgrim. It seems like the way that you view your career has been infused with this sense of a calling, of something greater than yourself that you're trying to do.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
If you couldn't travel anymore or you had to travel differently because of age or sickness or something else, do you worry that that would be a big identity shift for you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Okay. What place, if I'm going to Europe, should I skip? And what place can't I miss? I've stumped Rick Steves.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And I happened to be at this bar called Apocalypse Now.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Which is named, of course, after the film. And I happened to run into a whole bunch of journalists that were there to commemorate the 20th anniversary that had covered the war. And I met them and hung out with them for a while. And that was my first exposure to journalism and being a foreign correspondent, which is what ended up being my career. Yes.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Rick Steves, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
That's Rick Steves. His new book, On the Hippie Trail, publishes early next year. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Afim Shapiro and Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baitube, Pat McCusker, Leah Shaw-Dameron, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Devin Yalkin.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Bareilly, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddy Maciello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash The Interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, David talks with actor Jonathan Rumi about playing Jesus on the TV show The Chosen and the responsibility he feels meeting fans in real life.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And so it resonated so much reading this because through the journey, right, not everything ends up changing the course of your life, but the seeds of maybe what you're going to become, you know, you can often find them when you have these incredible experiences. And I just found that to be true reading about 23-year-old Rick Steves.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Instead of traveling to discover, I now travel to retreat. I'm often overwhelmed by the demands of daily life, so when it's time for vacation, I choose a destination that doesn't ask too much of me, and I don't give much back. Rick Steves has been helping millions of people, including people like me, expand their travel horizons since he was in his 20s.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Absolutely serendipitous.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Travel teacher. Is that how you see yourself?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Rick, in those days when you were doing that sort of circumambulation of Europe, what did you learn about Americans abroad? Like, what did you see in having these experiences over and over and over again with your countrymen in Europe?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
The prolific guidebook writer and beloved PBS personality believes that travel can make not only the world a better place, but you a better person. He's 69 now, but his upcoming book is about how it all began, with a trip he took after university like me. It's called On the Hippie Trail, and it's the journal entries he wrote as he traveled the 3,000 miles from Istanbul to Kathmandu in 1978.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. The minute I left university, I put on a backpack and went to see the world. I climbed the Andes in Ecuador. I taught English in Cambodia. I spent months visiting monasteries in Tibet. It was the most transformative period of my life. Lately, though, I feel like my travel mojo is gone.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And so that's what you'd say the Rick Steves philosophy is. It's to take something and come back changed for the better by it.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I do want to pick up on this idea of escape travel versus reality travel. That's a really nice framing because I hear you making the case for a particular type of immersive, respectful kind of travel. And I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that that's not how most people approach their vacations.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I'm thinking of especially the modern idea of going somewhere simply because you're going to be able to post on social media about it. What do you think of that approach of how things seem to have changed now where the performative nature of travel has taken over or has it?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
It's full of the joy of exploration and discovery. And I wanted to talk to him to relearn how to feel that sense of communion with the world. Here's my conversation with travel guru, Rick Steves. I was reading your newest book, which are the diaries of a trip that you took in 1978 when you were 23 years old on what was called the hippie trail.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
In the 1980s during the civil wars in Central America.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Which is a Catholic idea that you help the poor, that you try and give liberation through spiritual teaching. And it was very popular in the 1980s. And he was assassinated.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
So as part of a series of conversations I'm having with Democrats, I wanted to talk to Healy about how she views her role as the governor of a blue state in this second Trump term and how she thinks her party can wage an effective fight. Here's my conversation with Massachusetts Governor Maura Healy. Governor Healy, you just returned from D.C.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
But I'm curious, Governor, because, I mean, I think if you talk to any Democrat, the Biden administration on down, they would say that that was their focus. I mean, you know, they would say that that is precisely what they did during the last four years. They really tried to build up the economy out of a massive recession. They, you know, tried to tackle inflation, et cetera, et cetera.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
I am curious how you see that being different than what happened before.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Do you blame part of the failure to defend the Democratic brand, to articulate the vision on the Biden administration? Because you were the first Democratic governor to publicly urge President Biden to exit the race in July of last year. I mean, how much do you think it hurt the party? in voters' eyes, that it seemed like Democrats were sort of hiding President Biden's failing acuity?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Do you think the party is adequately reckoning now with the effects of what happened, though? Because I just saw one of Biden's senior advisors, Mike Donilon, say that the Democratic Party, quote, lost its mind after Biden's poor debate and basically threw an incumbent under the bus and that cost them the election.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
After the break, I asked Governor Healy about the migrant crisis that has played out during her time in office. And we talk more about the Trump administration's campaign against diversity, equity and inclusion.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Governor Healey, the number two issue in your state, according to polling, is immigration, which is something that has plagued Democrats in the last election. 2023 was the year where states like yours saw a big surge. That's also when you became governor. Can you tell me how you've seen this particular issue play out?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
for the annual National Governors Association meeting. And you attended an event with the president along with other governors. What did you discuss with the other governors, both Democratic and Republican, while you were there?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
One of the most visible strategies Republican governors adopted during the height of the migrant crisis was sending buses and planes of migrants to blue states like yours. Very memorably, Martha's Vineyard. It was a stunt, but you could argue that it worked. It made immigration enforcement into a blue state issue, which it had not been. Shouldn't it always have been, though?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
I mean, is it not fair to say that Democrats really did not take this issue seriously?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
And yet a poll just came out from UMass and WCBV showing that immigration is very important to people here and a majority of voters don't approve of the way that you've handled it. Why do you think that is?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
I mean, you've said before that the right to shelter law wasn't actually made to help waves and waves of people sort of settle here. And you are now seeking to change it. I am curious, why did you come to that decision? Because I think what you're trying to do, among other things, is require anyone seeking shelter to prove that they're in the country legally.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Is that one of the changes that you're trying to make to the law?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
As you know, Trump's borders are Tom Homan singled Boston out at CPAC last week. He called out Boston's police commissioner who said because of state law, he won't be enforcing immigration orders against migrants. Homan then said, and I'm quoting here, I'm coming to Boston and bringing hell with me. And I'm wondering what your response to that is.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
I think your police commissioner said basically that they weren't going to help ICE remove people with orders of removal, as happens in many sanctuary cities.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Another place where the federal and state governments are linked is on education. President Trump has made rolling back DEI, which is diversity, equity and inclusion, central to his political project. He has said now that he's going to be cutting federal funding for schools that include it. We don't know exactly what that means. It's sort of open to interpretation.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
You've said that Massachusetts schools are going to stay true to themselves. What do you mean by that?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
As is not so traditional, President Trump took the opportunity to scold Maine's Democratic governor, Janet Mills, over her opposition to his executive order banning transgender women from women's sports.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Why do you think we're seeing such a backlash to DEI, though? You know, people have expressed that they do feel that sort of mandated diversity, equity, and inclusion, they feel that it hasn't been beneficial to relations between races and ethnicities, and that, you know, there is a feeling specifically on the right that this has become a sort of left-wing orthodoxy.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
You were, as you mentioned, the country's first openly gay attorney general. Prior to that, you worked in the civil rights division of the AG's office, where you led the first successful challenge to the Defense of Marriage Act. I sued President Obama. You did.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
There is some concern among Democrats that after Roe v. Wade, we are going to see Obergefell, the Supreme Court's decision that made gay marriage legal at the federal level, overturned. Next.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
And there was a huge amount of fury after Roe fell, but that dissipated. A lot of Democrats thought in this election that Roe was going to be something that was going to galvanize people, and it didn't enough. And so I guess when you look at marriage equality— Does it seem more imminent to you that perhaps people won't stand up for the things that seem to have been settled?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
And we should say this was about transgender rights and about his executive order to do with transgender rights. And then he called her out. Right. And then she responded immediately. basically, that she would follow the laws of her state and the federal government and the federal government and that she would see him in court. And that didn't seem to go down well.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Were you surprised to see the level of importance that trans rights had in this election? And do you think Democrats misread the electorate on the issue, as Seth Moulton, the representative from your own state, said?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Barring change to the Constitution, President Trump can't be reelected.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
You know, when I speak to Democratic voters— There is an enormous amount of anger towards the Democratic Party that allowed this to happen. They look at this and they say it was the failure of the Democratic Party that opened the door to Donald Trump coming in. And I just wonder, as a sitting governor and a Democrat, how you respond to that. I agree.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Thank you. Special thanks to Reed Epstein, Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, David talks to Lady Gaga about her new album, Mayhem, and what she's learned after almost 20 years in the music business.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
What was the feeling afterwards among the Democratic governors in particular after that exchange?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Governor, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is because I am interested to know how Democratic governors are seeing this moment and how to maneuver in the second Trump era. Until now, you've been not as publicly combative as perhaps other governors have been.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Last weekend, governors from both parties converged in Washington for their annual gathering. As is traditional, they met with the president as a group.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
And I'm wondering if that's because Donald Trump is seemingly more willing to be punitive or is it because his policies have been popular? I mean, what are you weighing when you're thinking about how to talk about this administration?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
That interaction is one example of the increasingly antagonistic relationship between the president and Democratic governors. This time around, Trump is adopting a more punitive posture towards those he perceives as defying him. And liberal governors now have to decide how to respond. Among them, Maura Healey of Massachusetts.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
You, of course, were AG. You have direct experience with this. I am curious if you really do think that how the AGs are operating, if it's the best way. Because, for example, you were accused of politicizing the AG's office by jumping into national issues. It's something that is often said about AGs. Right. Right. It's become this kind of pattern.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
And I'm curious, do you think that AG should be getting in these federal fights so consistently?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Then you saw Republicans do the same, obviously, during the Biden administration. And they would argue that they were doing the same thing.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
I was about to say, are you confident that the courts can actually constrain this administration?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
I did seem to catch Democrats by surprise. I mean, we have seen Democrats take a beat and have trouble coming to an agreement about what kind of resistance or opposition they're going to pose. You've talked a little bit about what's happening publicly.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
I'm curious what has been happening privately, because one of my colleagues reported that you were part of a group of Democratic governors in January who privately urged Senator Chuck Schumer to to fight harder or at least differently against Trump. And I'm curious, like, what you were wanting to see that you weren't seeing.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Keeley is a former civil rights lawyer who, in 2014, became the nation's first openly gay state attorney general. In 2022, she won the governorship. And while she may not have the same national profile as some of her colleagues, like J.B. Pritzker of Illinois or Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, she's known as being deeply influential in the party behind closed doors.
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
Do you think the leadership in Congress is the right leadership to enact what you're envisioning?
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is that I was told by quite a few Democrats that you are very influential in the party beyond your state. And so as you have been having these conversations about moving the party forward, I did want to get your temperature on just the Democratic brand writ large, because polling is showing that
The Daily
'The Interview': Gov. Maura Healey Wants Democrats to Put Up a Fight
The Democratic brand is really underwater, regardless of what's happening with Donald Trump and what's happening in the White House. The losses were steep in the last election. You are the governor of a solidly blue state. What was your big takeaway about why the Democrats did so badly?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
You know, I'm imagining this beautiful utopia where we have communal spaces where there's no Internet. And obviously you can get that by going out into the wilderness. But the way that our society is moving is that we are now having wearable devices like glasses. There are discussions about implants in our heads. And we have, of course, the rise of artificial intelligence.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
I mean, the New York Times just published a profile of a woman who fell in love with her AI boyfriend. I mean, it seems like a lot of these technologies are actually going in the direction to pushing us to even more engagement.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
After the break, Dr. Lemke shares her theory about why modern life is making us so susceptible to addiction.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
You published your book, Dopamine Nation, in 2021 with the thesis that the overabundance of modern culture has us constantly stimulated by dopamine. And that's only accelerated since your book was published. And I'm just wondering, broadly, does it feel like a whole new world for your research has opened up just since you've written your last book?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
So even as we've seen the rise of temptations, we've also seen the rise of other things to counterbalance them. In 2021, I was an early adopter of the Zempik, which is part of that class of drugs known as GLP-1s. And I had done everything to lose weight, including surgery, but this was the first thing that really worked for me.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
And I know we don't know exactly how these drugs work, but one thing that we are seeing is that it seems to curb other addictive behaviors. And I'm wondering what you make of that.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
You know, in your book, you seem to be skeptical of medical interventions. And one undercurrent of the conversation around GLP-1s is how long people should stay on them. Do you encourage people to create new habits to try and get off the medication? Or is there no problem as far as you can see it with staying on them long term?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, you know, talking to you because one of the things that you emphasize a lot are like the systems that we live in, the food systems, the pharmaceutical systems, the cultural systems that we inhabit. And I also do wonder what you make of these large cultural shifts that we're seeing in regards to behaviors.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
You know, a lot is being written now about the sober curious trend and And I guess this is the other side of the spectrum, which is not medical. It's cultural. But do you actually see those shifts as producing long term results or are they just fads?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
That's interesting, the idea that we're retreating from real-world dopamine fixes to digital-world dopamine fixes.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
I mean, big question. Are we just playing whack-a-mole with our addictions?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Let me break this down for a moment to see if I understand what you're saying, which is that modern life requires us to just constantly think about ourselves and be on display. And the use of these ways to take us out of ourselves is increasing because we're constantly narcissistically thinking about ourselves. Is that right?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
But this is weird for a therapist to say because so much of our culture is now inundated with this Yes, it's true.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
This naturally, I think, leads us to how we break the cycle of addiction. For me, it's something that I think about a lot simply because my sister died of her addiction and it was one of the catalysts for making me stop drinking. And it's the two different paths. I took sobriety and she, with a lifetime of struggle of trying to be sober, it ended up defeating her and she lost her life.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
What have you learned about why some people can do it and others can't?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
I do wonder what made you become an addiction specialist. I mean, was there a reason or was it just something that you were interested in?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
So we've mostly talked about forms of addiction that have obvious negative consequences in a person's life. But I also, you know, do wonder about what we say we can become addicted to. You know, when we started talking, you used this example of struggling with romantic novels. I'm also a big fan, by the way. But, you know, is there something trivializing about calling stuff like that an addiction?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Because you can die from alcoholism, but you can't die from reading romanticism.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
You work in Stanford's Addiction Medicine Dual Diagnosis Clinic, which is a bit of a mouthful, but essentially you see patients, right, about addiction. Yes. So generally speaking, have you seen things in your practice that weren't there before that you're seeing now since the pandemic? Yes.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Exactly. So we've been just having this very wide-ranging conversation about all sorts of different types of addiction and all the struggles that we have. And I mean, I don't want to land this on you, but what are we supposed to do?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
You know, that is something that I, in my own personal journey, did. But the other side of this, of course, is that while I'm happier and healthier, I also sometimes wonder if I'm becoming an amoeba. You know, that all this abstinence is just making me into, you know, someone who is always saying no to dopamine and to pleasure. Do you hear that concern often?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
That's Dr. Anna Lembke. She's the author of Dopamine Nation. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Marian Lizano. Photography by Devin Yalkin. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme is our producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Maddy Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash the interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Next week, David talks with Denzel Washington.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
In fact, in the developed world, we are more lonely, anxious, and depressed than ever. Dr. Anna Lembke likens it to the plenty paradox. The more we have, the less satisfied we are. Lemke is a psychiatrist who works at Stanford University, and she's written extensively, including in her bestselling book, Dopamine Nation, about the science behind addiction.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
This is like a timeline of like our culture that that is very, very and I'm going to use the word sobering because it is very sobering. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to sort of establish some of the basics of your work and some of the language that you've already used so we can understand what it means. How do you define addiction?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Is there a difference between addictive behaviors and being an addict?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
And I'll tell you why I asked this. Because my understanding has always been that addicts cannot control their compulsion. And then addictive behaviors are more habits that can be moderated or controlled. But I think what I'm hearing from you suggests that that's not the right way to think about it.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
And when you're saying it's like a judgment call, is that a judgment that one makes oneself or is that a judgment that someone like you would make if I went to go see you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. We live in a moment where things are more available than ever. You can whip out your phone right now and order lunch, bet on sports, listen to this podcast, watch porn, buy a car, meet a friend, get therapy from an AI bot. But all that convenience isn't making us any happier.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Turns out our brains are wired to constantly seek stimulation, which our modern era delivers in overdrive. I'm sure if you look at your life, maybe there's something you are indulging in a little too frequently than is good for you.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
So, you know, we've become extremely attached to our phones. And phones do seem to be like the gateway to a lot of these new addictive behaviors. Online sports betting has exploded. Pornography use, as you mentioned, is up, even as actual sex is down. I mean, I was reading a study that said in 2024, Gen Z spent six to seven hours a day scrolling on average.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
So I guess it seems like it's more a systemic problem than an individual problem.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
You've called this the plenty paradox, right? Which is the more we have, the worse off we are because we're being bombarded all the time with dopamine producing things and that makes us actually feel worse.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
For me, the turning point came at the start of the pandemic, when my sister died of liver failure brought on by alcoholism, something I shared with Dr. Lemke before our interview. It made me take a hard look at my life. After a lifetime of obesity, I ended up taking Ozempic, which curtailed my obsessive relationship with food. Then two years ago, I stopped drinking alcohol.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
Do you see us all as addicts now?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
I mean, you know, you have great authority and expertise on this area, but also you are part of the Anthropocene era and you are a human in this world and also a mother. And I'm just wondering how you navigate this for yourself and for your family.
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
You didn't even have internet in your home?
The Daily
'The Interview': Digital Drugs Have Us Hooked. Dr. Anna Lembke Sees a Way Out.
I am going to tell the New York Times that I am just unplugging from the Internet and I don't think it's going to go very well.
The Daily
Trump 2.0 Arrives in Force
We're essentially struggling with endemic narcissism. where our culture is demanding that we focus on ourselves so much that what it's creating is this deep need to escape ourselves.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Megyn's NYT Interview, WHCA Fires Unfunny Comedian From Dinner, and Newsom's Failed Shift, with Emily Jashinsky and Eliana Johnson | Ep. 1038
I think you're right that there is some way that we are seeing things or discussing something different, right? I guess what I'm trying to understand is what are the rules of this new world that you are inhabiting? Are you sort of making them up as you go along and you're sort of seeing what it is or do you adhere to some of those old values that you used to embrace?
The Megyn Kelly Show
Megyn's NYT Interview, WHCA Fires Unfunny Comedian From Dinner, and Newsom's Failed Shift, with Emily Jashinsky and Eliana Johnson | Ep. 1038
Well, you interviewed him and it was a fair interview, a tough interview, but you opened it by saying, you know, that he was a friend. You said, I've been really dismayed by the amount of pile on that he's been suffering. And I've been outraged by the unfairness of the media's coverage of the allegations. And that's a direct quote.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Megyn's NYT Interview, WHCA Fires Unfunny Comedian From Dinner, and Newsom's Failed Shift, with Emily Jashinsky and Eliana Johnson | Ep. 1038
And so, you know, I'm, I'm curious what you're doing in that interview because you're setting up the interview with, in a particular kind of way that perhaps it wouldn't be set up in the mainstream media.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Megyn's NYT Interview, WHCA Fires Unfunny Comedian From Dinner, and Newsom's Failed Shift, with Emily Jashinsky and Eliana Johnson | Ep. 1038
Do you see yourself as a journalist still? Or would you not describe yourself like that anymore?