Lulu Garcia Navarro
Appearances
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
You said three ways that you can travel. You can travel as a tourist.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
A traveler. And then the third one was as a pilgrim.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Explain to me the third one. I get the distinction between the first two.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I'm listening to you talk, and the philosophy is beautiful. This idea of communion with the world, with connection with other people. But there is a shift happening in the world right now, I think, towards isolationism, nativism, a fundamental suspicion of difference. We're in a world that travels... More than it ever has. And yet, what seems to be happening is not what you would hope.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And I'm just wondering what you make of those changes.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
But isn't that what a guidebook is ultimately? It's, I mean, they're just placing value on a different thing, which is an image and a place. But I mean, a guidebook points you to a certain direction and tells you this is the thing that you need to go do in this particular place.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
When you reread those diaries, what did it evoke in you when you looked at that 23-year-old with the hindsight of age now?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Do you think social media is ruining travel? I'm thinking about how most people I know, especially younger people, get their travel recommendations from TikTok and from Instagram.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
What did that make you feel?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
We've seen protests in Europe over tourism. In Barcelona, residents this summer were squirting visitors with water guns and chanting things like, tourists go home.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Is there anywhere that you regret having popularized?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
So wait, I'm hearing a lot of different things.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
How do you feel about that transformation? Because there's the good stuff, they're affluent, but then there's the bad stuff that their way of life is changing, which is at the center of this industry that you've given your life to.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
That's so interesting that you have to consider that now.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I am going to talk to you again. But in the time we have left, I want to return to the question of the world and how it's changing. Because you responded to my question about nativism and fear of difference by talking about social media. But I think there's something more fundamental going on.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Perhaps you might be overstating the transformative power of this thing that you do.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
After the break, I call Rick back to ask about what he's sacrificed for a life on the road.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I'm good. How are you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I see that you're at home right now. I want to ask you about your home because you have traveled all over the world, and yet you have always lived in the place where you grew up. Why is that?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Oh, my goodness. That's an amazing view. And indeed, I can see your school.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Most people would not want that memory infused.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Rick, I did want to ask you about something pretty significant in your life. You've been very open about receiving a diagnosis of prostate cancer. How are you doing?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Has it given you more of an urgency to do things you haven't done before?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I just want to stay for a moment with that idea of regret. I mean, what happened, the sacrifices of being on the road so much? Because You have spent such a huge portion of your life going out elsewhere and discovering and exploring.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
So reading this book really brought me back because when I was 23, I went on my own version of the hippie trail. And I went to different countries. I went to Asia. But the thing that changed the course of my life happened there. I was in Vietnam. And it was the 20-year anniversary of the fall of Saigon. And I was not interested in journalism in any way, shape, or form.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Well, it's interesting. You use two different words. One is mission and one is choice. I mean, mission sounds like it's a calling and that it doesn't feel like it's a choice, that it doesn't feel like it's optional.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And it relates to this idea that you have talked about with me, which is of being a pilgrim. It seems like the way that you view your career has been infused with this sense of a calling, of something greater than yourself that you're trying to do.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
If you couldn't travel anymore or you had to travel differently because of age or sickness or something else, do you worry that that would be a big identity shift for you?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Okay. What place, if I'm going to Europe, should I skip? And what place can't I miss? I've stumped Rick Steves.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And I happened to be at this bar called Apocalypse Now.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Which is named, of course, after the film. And I happened to run into a whole bunch of journalists that were there to commemorate the 20th anniversary that had covered the war. And I met them and hung out with them for a while. And that was my first exposure to journalism and being a foreign correspondent, which is what ended up being my career. Yes.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Rick Steves, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
That's Rick Steves. His new book, On the Hippie Trail, publishes early next year. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orme. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Afim Shapiro and Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baitube, Pat McCusker, Leah Shaw-Dameron, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Devin Yalkin.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Our senior booker is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Bareilly, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddy Maciello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnick. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes.com slash The Interview. And you can email us anytime at theinterviewatnytimes.com. Next week, David talks with actor Jonathan Rumi about playing Jesus on the TV show The Chosen and the responsibility he feels meeting fans in real life.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And so it resonated so much reading this because through the journey, right, not everything ends up changing the course of your life, but the seeds of maybe what you're going to become, you know, you can often find them when you have these incredible experiences. And I just found that to be true reading about 23-year-old Rick Steves.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Instead of traveling to discover, I now travel to retreat. I'm often overwhelmed by the demands of daily life, so when it's time for vacation, I choose a destination that doesn't ask too much of me, and I don't give much back. Rick Steves has been helping millions of people, including people like me, expand their travel horizons since he was in his 20s.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Absolutely serendipitous.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Travel teacher. Is that how you see yourself?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Rick, in those days when you were doing that sort of circumambulation of Europe, what did you learn about Americans abroad? Like, what did you see in having these experiences over and over and over again with your countrymen in Europe?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
The prolific guidebook writer and beloved PBS personality believes that travel can make not only the world a better place, but you a better person. He's 69 now, but his upcoming book is about how it all began, with a trip he took after university like me. It's called On the Hippie Trail, and it's the journal entries he wrote as he traveled the 3,000 miles from Istanbul to Kathmandu in 1978.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. The minute I left university, I put on a backpack and went to see the world. I climbed the Andes in Ecuador. I taught English in Cambodia. I spent months visiting monasteries in Tibet. It was the most transformative period of my life. Lately, though, I feel like my travel mojo is gone.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
And so that's what you'd say the Rick Steves philosophy is. It's to take something and come back changed for the better by it.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I do want to pick up on this idea of escape travel versus reality travel. That's a really nice framing because I hear you making the case for a particular type of immersive, respectful kind of travel. And I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that that's not how most people approach their vacations.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
I'm thinking of especially the modern idea of going somewhere simply because you're going to be able to post on social media about it. What do you think of that approach of how things seem to have changed now where the performative nature of travel has taken over or has it?
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
It's full of the joy of exploration and discovery. And I wanted to talk to him to relearn how to feel that sense of communion with the world. Here's my conversation with travel guru, Rick Steves. I was reading your newest book, which are the diaries of a trip that you took in 1978 when you were 23 years old on what was called the hippie trail.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
In the 1980s during the civil wars in Central America.
The Daily
'The Interview': Rick Steves Refuses To Get Cynical About the World
Which is a Catholic idea that you help the poor, that you try and give liberation through spiritual teaching. And it was very popular in the 1980s. And he was assassinated.