Konstantin Kisin
Appearances
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
So what would you say to those people who are saying that the reason Trump is being quite friendly to Putin and speaks about him in quite glowing terms in some instances is because he is worried that if he alienates Russia to such an extent and they side with China, that is going to cause major problems for the globe.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Well, we're talking about bad men who run countries, and I've been speaking to a lot of Australians, particularly high-ranking Australians in government and so on and so forth, and they're very concerned with China and its covetous eyes towards Taiwan. How... I mean, let's be blunt here. Do you think that's going to happen, the invasion of Taiwan, and how long do you think it's going to take?
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Because the one thing that I don't think people understand is China's tentacles extend to South America, and particularly Venezuela. Correct. My family in Venezuela tell me about Chinese investment. And Africa. Yeah. But it's more pertinent for America, the fact that Venezuela is only a couple of hours away from Miami. And you've got Hezbollah training on the island of Margarita. You've got Iran.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
This is a very serious problem. Quite literally, you have enemies stationed in the Caribbean.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Notes. Yeah. It's going to be a very small percentage. Tiny amount of people. I was being facetious, but it's actually true.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
It's interesting because on the one hand, Trump is saying that he doesn't want to have this neocon attitude where he puts troops on the ground and he influences regime change. But let's be brutally honest, Seb. Iran.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Unless you've sought Iran, whatever that means, that is the source of the poison which causes much of the disruption in the Middle East.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
So what does that actually mean? Are you going to ratchet up the sanctions?
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Because that is not only the only challenge. Obviously, you also have the situation in Gaza. The ceasefire has just been broken. This is going to take a long time to sort out.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
And what would you say, Liam, to those people who go, look, what COVID showed us is that we can't rely on China. China will act within its own interests. We're too reliant on the Chinese economy. We need to prioritize American-made goods. We need to prioritize infrastructure in America.
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
We need to prioritize America first, because if we look at the way things are going, it's going to become more and more antagonistic between these two countries. And as a result of that, we need to prioritize America. Well, if we spool back, you know,
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Yeah, and so, just to finish that thought, so... Really, it's Trump's priority is Russia within Russia-Ukraine and those negotiations. If we look at it with cold, hard eyes,
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
You might have seen in the news that DeepSeek, that AI app everyone's downloading, is actually sending unencrypted data straight to Chinese servers. And here's the thing, it's not just Chinese companies we need to worry about. ChatGPT has close ties to government agencies and big tech firms, raising important questions about how our data is handled.
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
If you've followed trigonometry for long enough, you'll know issues like this are close to our hearts. That's why we started using Venice AI, today's sponsor.
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Could we be better off in practice if major continental regions had each maintained internal self-sufficiency and traded mainly within themselves?
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Would getting people of different lines of work change things? And if so, how do we get these to the top of the food chain?
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
What do you mean by military conflagration?
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
So you think that by Trump's posturing and talking and talking about raising tariffs, even... He has raised tariffs on China and China have reciprocated. They're real. They're on now. But the possibility of him raising them even more would actually trigger them. And how likely do you think that is, Nick?
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Delete.me works continuously to keep your data off these sites so you don't have to. And as someone who speaks his mind publicly, I know firsthand how important privacy and security are. The reality is it's never been easier for strangers to find personal details about you online. That's why we at Trigonometry recommend Delete Me.
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
And how much of you do you think this is because of his experiences dealing with the Chinese during COVID with the fact that they were, to put it mildly, opaque when it came to the creation of the virus, how it was spread, et cetera, et cetera. And him thinking to himself, right, well, this is payback.
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your plan by texting TRIGGER to 64000. Text TRIGGER to 64000. That's TRIGGER to 64000. Don't let data brokers profit off your personal information. Take back control with Delete Me. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
The film was powerful. I thought it made some really important points. I am almost certain it's going to cause a moral panic.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
And I feel like when it comes to the idea of toxic masculinity, I use inverted commas, that often happens. Do you have any thoughts on that aspect of it?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Well, this is what I can ask you, because your area of expertise is evolutionary psychology. I imagine there are very strong evolutionary reasons why a male in a society would not want to be perceived as someone who's sexually unsuccessful.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
William, one thing I think would be interesting for you to break down is what are the critical factors that are likely to mean that someone is going to be persuaded by these sort of ideologies? I imagine in this particular film, there's a father and seemingly like a pretty good father present. He might not be there as much as he thinks he should be or whatever, but
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
But I imagine single-parent household is going to be a strong contributor. What are some of the markers that people watching can go, well, actually, these are the things that I probably should address with my boy?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
And I suppose the obvious question, I don't know whether there is any research on this, is I think this movie has resonated as much, this series has resonated as much as it has because it speaks to two fundamental fears that parents have. One of them is that the online world is something they don't really understand very well. You see that in the movie.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
And they don't know what's happening to their children online. Thank you. Thank you.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Well, what the film shows, I think, that school looked to me as someone who, unlike you two, has never worked in a school. When I looked at it from the outside, I was like, this is a very badly run prison. That's what it looks like, right? And, you know, it's interesting. You say the male teachers were aggressive. I didn't read it that way. What I saw is...
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
The inmates are running the asylum, and people who are supposed to be in charge are doing their best to cope with that fact. They're not actually in charge. So I don't understand how much learning is going to be happening in that environment. And I'll be honest with you, as a parent, the one thing it really made me think about is, do I even want to put my kid in a school?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
So I think we've got, you know, you'll be both of you will be much better able to talk about this. And Francis got a whole book about teaching coming out. But one of the things that seems to me is that there are just there is a complete lack of discipline and respect towards the adults in that environment.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
That will be terrifying, I think, to a lot of people.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Yeah. But just for people who haven't seen the film, I mean, in that school, you've got pupils assaulting each other left, right and centre, telling the teachers to fuck off. I mean, we could go down the list, but it's basic. It is not a place in which the adults are in charge.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Well, I was going to slightly disagree with you. Maybe it's not disagreement. Maybe we're just talking about different things. Would you not be in favor of banning phones in schools?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
There's a reason we don't all have our phones here. Yeah, exactly. Because we're concentrating on the conversation we're having.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
We should say as well, maybe a slight spoiler alert, which is the show is about a boy who, in a bout of rage, triggered by bullying in relation with a girl, stabs her to death, and there's an ensuing thing. And it is very powerful. It is very powerfully made. And I thought that there were lots of things about it that were well presented and really important and interesting.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
But isn't the counterargument to that exactly what you just said, which is to be fully prepared for the modern world, you do have to be familiar with all these tools and these technologies. I mean, we've had people working for us who've come to us at the age of 18, and they know more about YouTube than we do.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
And do you worry that, I have to be honest with you, I thought the film was powerful. I thought it made some really important points. I am almost certain it's going to cause a moral panic in which there are going to be all sorts of overreactions. An example, you know, Franz and I were talking about this after watching it. You know those harnesses that people have two-year-olds on in Britain?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
That happened after, I think, the Jamie Bulger killing. And Jamie Bulger wasn't killed, forgive me, because she wasn't on a dog lead. Do you know what I mean? And the way the parents do that, like, my wife looks at that in horror, right? So do you worry that there's going to be another... The reason I ask this is, like, when I was looking at some of the stuff that this film portrays,
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
I was thinking, do you know what? When I was a teenager and I was going on like gaming forums or playing video games, the sort of shit that I would have said and people were saying. Yeah. If you put that in the cold light of day in an interview room in a police station, I mean, there's probably dozens of hate crimes being committed in that space, right?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Because young boys especially talk a lot of shit, try and get a reaction, say all kinds of crazy nonsense. And they have done, I imagine, since the dawn of time.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
So you mentioned that I saw a big part of the conversation in relation to this being about the race of the people involved. And, you know, I only slightly jokingly went, well, look, at least it's an opportunity for a young white male actor to get a job. Right. But seriously, give us the statistics. Why is that, you know, a concern and why is that an issue?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
So what would you like to see with your knowledge of this area? What do you think... the government and also parents could be doing to really try and tackle some of the issues raised in the film without overreacting?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
There are a lot of problems with IVF. It's not as reliable as people like to pretend. And I wonder, you know, the point you're making with the choice between a career and children, I don't know if that circle is ever going to get, a square is ever going to get circled or whatever the expression is.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
William, thank you so much for coming on. Head on over to Substack where he's going to answer your questions.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
But come back to the racial thing, because there's a lot of statistical research on this. So break that down for us.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
William, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's great to have you on. You are a go-to guy on all things to do within sales, manosphere, etc. We had a great first conversation with you three years ago. And now we've got this series on Netflix, which is on course to be the most watched thing on there, Adolescence. You messaged us saying there's a lot to talk about. What did you make of it?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Coming back to adolescence, one of the other things that I think it explores is this idea of toxic masculinity, which is the kind of unconstructive...
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
manifestation of male anger i think really that's kind of what they're getting and i saw there was a very clear line through from the way that the boy behaves particularly when he's being interrogated by the psychologist or you know not interrogated having the chat and the way the father behaves
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Which I thought was a very interesting thing because I didn't see the connection actually in the sense that the father is angry at stuff that a lot of people might be normally angry about. Whereas the boy clearly has a very... corrupted version of that, where he feels entitled to dominate other people, to manipulate them with language and also physicality, etc. But the connection is often made.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
So this is realist sphere of influence politics.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
We divide the world. Look, we're big men. We control this part. You control that part. Let's divide what's in the middle.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Okay. So one of the things, this got a lot of traction in the media. There was a conversation between the American presenter and podcaster Tucker Carlson and Steve Vitkoff, who is the U.S. special envoy, who is in charge of negotiating a peace deal with Ukraine and also in Israel and Hamas. And they talked about those two issues, but we'll focus on the Ukraine side of things.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
He said a lot of things in that interview that are just factually incorrect. He said that the five areas that Russia controls, which it doesn't control fully, by the way, were given to Ukraine by Khrushchev, who was a Ukrainian. That's not true. They weren't given to Ukraine. Only Crimea was. Khrushchev was not Ukrainian.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
I don't want to get too far into the details of that. I think what I'm saying is you as an expert and me as a layman would both agree that there were lots and lots and lots of things that he said. Those are just two easy examples which completely misrepresent the factual reality. What they do represent is the Kremlin position. Right. So why is the U.S.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
special envoy saying things that have no connection to the truth but have every connection to Kremlin propaganda? Why is that happening, Andrey?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
And especially your argument is because actually, why not send someone like that in to negotiate? Because ultimately what you care about is just get this wrapped up. It doesn't really matter how this ends. We need to deal with this quickly because we've got China to deal with.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Well, let's do that. Let's do that. And look, from our perspective, we don't have a line. I guess my to the extent that I understand Ukraine and Russia, you know, growing up in Russia, living in Ukraine for some time, having family, having relatives, speaking to people in both countries about what's going on from the inside, speaking to people who are involved in various things.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
at various levels in government. I'm just telling people in the West what I know and what I'm hearing. That's all I'm doing. And if I was hearing something else, I'd be saying something else. But I agree with you. One of the fascinating things, I'm not sure if you experienced this because we're both Russian speakers and I imagine we both consume Russian speaking media.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
is watching something become a talking point in Russian media, and then two weeks later, or three weeks later, or a month later, it appears in English-speaking media as this new thing. Have you seen that pipeline happen yourself?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Well, this is why I was going to flesh out Francis' question a little bit. I think we should all accept, whether we like it or not, that elections have consequences. The president of the United States is President Trump. That's not going to change. The vice president is J.D. Vance. That's not going to change. I imagine none of the other people around are going to change.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
So this policy of America will continue. The only question, therefore, remains is actually, based on what you're saying, what does Europe do about this?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
But European countries have nuclear weapons as a deterrent.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
I agree. I made this point recently, and I think it's actually an incredibly obvious point that no one... Other than you and me, I've not heard anyone talk about this, even though it's so obvious. But... Nonetheless, you're saying if the Americans let Ukraine be subjugated, the Ukrainians will be added to the Russian army and then that army can be used against Europe.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
And what I'm saying is European countries have nuclear weapons they can use to deter that. That's the comfort that a lot of Europeans will take. And they will say, well, actually, we don't need to do anything. We've got nuclear weapons. Britain and France will be fine.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
It's a good point, well taken. But I'm saying something else, which is your claim is that if Ukraine is forced to sign a ceasefire that leads to subjugation, Europe will then be attacked. And what I'm saying is Europeans won't be attacked, or at least people would argue Europeans won't be attacked, because Europe has the nuclear deterrent.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Well, Andrey, it's very serious things you're saying. I think people will be scared but also confused and it's very early days in the Trump administration. I will say very sincerely that I hope you're wrong about everything you're saying. But sadly, I'm afraid we're going to just have to wait and see.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Andrei, that's us. Thank you for coming on the show and giving us your perspective.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
But what's the other thing? Before Andrea answers the final question at the end of the interview, make sure you click the link in the description. Go to our Substack where you'll be able to see this. Do you think Putin would be more or less likely to use nuclear weapons as he gets older? Was there a time early in Putin's presidency when he was sincerely open to closer ties with the West?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
What role, if any, does geography play in Russian politics?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
What do you think is the likelihood of China invading Taiwan or trying to take it in some way? Guys, let us take a minute to recommend another podcast.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
This is a described... Francis, it's okay. The Jordan Harbinger Show is a perfect complement to trigonometry. Really? Absolutely. Just like Trigonometry, Jordan hosts weekly mind-broadening conversations with some of the most fascinating people in the world. But a key difference that I'm a big fan of is that Jordan is focused on pulling actionable, growth-oriented advice from his guests.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Sounds just like me, except, you know, I'm more SAS. You can't go wrong with adding The Jordan Harbinger Show to your podcast rotation. Search for The Jordan Harbinger Show, that's H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
And that's quite a claim. Can you give us some specifics? Like, personally, I've never heard him say he wants to destroy Western civilization. What are you talking about specifically?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Andrei Laronov, welcome back to the show. We had you on exactly three years ago to talk about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, what Vladimir Putin was doing. Our interest was you were someone who worked with Vladimir Putin closely for six years, and we talked about it then.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
And you messaged us recently saying that there are a lot of things being said in the English-speaking world that are not true and that need to be discussed, something we agree with you on, by the way. So... What are you talking about? What's going on? What do you think needs to be talked about in a different way?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Mike, welcome to Trigonometry. Thanks for having me. It's good to have you on. We are sitting here on the day that allegedly the JFK files are going to be released. Do we know what's in them?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, the reason people say that is it's kind of the obvious thing. Like if you get a pedophile to bring other people to his pedophile island, that's the perfect place for blackmail material to be generated, isn't it?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
So what's the real story of Jeffrey Epstein?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, one of the guests we've had on the show before is Michael Francis, who's a former New York mobster, basically. And he told us, I think it was in the Substack section, the paywall section, that the mafia were involved somehow.
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, you made the point, and I think it's a really valid point, which is that we might tolerate it. You know, if you're an American citizen, you might tolerate it when it's against the Taliban or whoever. But the JFK and the Epstein things as just two examples, those are things that involve U.S. citizens. You've got an American president being assassinated.
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
And you've got this guy who was, you know, up to God knows what. And the question with Epstein as well as interestingly is what do we Everyone thinks Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself Do we know enough to actually say that categorically?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, Mike, it's been great having you on. Before we head to Substack, where our fans get to ask you their questions, the one we always end with is what's the one thing we're not talking about that we should be?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Are you expecting that to be part of this conversation?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
If you're in charge, what is the first best bang for your buck thing that you would go after? He's thinking about Doge in this case.
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
All right, head on over to Substack where we ask Mike your questions. What countries around the world seem to have the purest form of government or at least minimal influence from the blob? It's what we call the deep state in the UK. Or similar style of corruption. Do any exist? Do any countries exist that don't have this?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, you mentioned Epstein, and that's something that... I really want to talk with you about because I haven't looked into it deeply at all. I don't really know much about it.
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
The Joe Public perception of this, I would say, is there was some rich guy who hobnobbed with all these famous people, some of them powerful people, and he was into young girls and some of these people were into young girls. So he brought them to his island and they all had a good time, basically, right? So what's the real story of Jeffrey Epstein?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Who was he, first of all? Just tell us his, like, story.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Oh, these people, they really, really, really do not like Europe. I wouldn't call it antagonism, but certainly... Why not? It is antagonism. One of the reasons America is so great is that there is a legal system that allows people recourse to appeal and so on.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But at the same time, if you've made an actual mistake, the best way to make that go away is to hold your hands up and go, that was a mistake, we're investigating, we'll find out what happened, and the right processes will be put in place so this doesn't happen anymore. Right. That's how you deal with it.
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And at some point you might have to admit culpability and some people might have to accept the consequences of that. But that is the way you maintain credibility. Anyway, it feels to me like we're in an interesting moment. But in terms of the stuff that you and I have picked up kind of on the ground here in America, I think one other thing that is really important to say is that.
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The wave of optimism, positivity that happened in America after the last election, which we were here for, and we did one of these conversations then, doesn't cover up the fact that a lot of ordinary Americans, left, right, center, up, down, a lot of people are really hurting. We heard this from guest after guest and ordinary person after ordinary person that we spoke to.
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A hell of a lot of people are in a position where they're financially very precarious. They're living hand to mouth. They don't have savings. Costs of things are going up. And they're looking for solutions to those things. And I think a lot of people hope that this re-industrializing America agenda, bringing jobs to America is going to work. But at this moment in time,
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a lot of people are in a very difficult situation.
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Francis, we have been in the US for two weeks. Now we're recorded about 16 episodes and 14 days. Intense. And we've learned a lot.
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And I whether whatever my personal view on it, forget about President Trump. It doesn't matter which side of the political debate you're on. I think that's by far and away the biggest issue. And I really hope that the current administration succeeds in making more giving more Americans access to the American dream, because.
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You know, I thought Charlemagne, who we had on the show, made this point very well. And Andrew Schultz talked about this as well when we interviewed him, which is the reason that you're seeing support for like that Luigi guy who killed a health insurance company executive and other movements of that kind is that a hell of a lot of people
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don't have the hope that their American dream is supposed to provide to them. And this reflects not only in the price of food and groceries and other things, but it's also about your ability to buy somewhere to live. It applies to your ability to have kids and provide a life for them. And that is a big, big, big issue.
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And I really hope that what the Trump administration is doing is going to be successful in that. We haven't talked about Doge yet. And we haven't talked about the immigration situation and the deportation thing, because I think on both of those things, what you're likely to find is that the solution is right and necessary. But when you move this quickly, mistakes are going to get made.
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Things that shouldn't really be cut are going to get cut. People who shouldn't be deported are going to get deported. And there does seem to be some of that going on.
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Look, I think I'm... You and I joke about this all the time. You are more high empathy than I am. I'm a lot lower empathy. And because of that, I will say that I think this is true in Britain. I think it's true in America. After at least a decade of... open borders, deporting criminals absolutely needs to happen. I have no reservation about that.
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Well, I think one of the things that happened with the election of President Trump is that a lot of people projected their own concerns and their own things onto him. And of course, he, like any good politician, like any effective politician, he would have encouraged that. So the people who were concerned about runaway wokeness thought that, you know, that's what he's going to deal with.
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I have no empathy for people who come here legally and murder people, rape people, commit crimes. They should be deported. I don't particularly care if they end up in a maximum security prison in El Salvador. Legally, there may be issues with that, and that should go through the proper process. Yeah.
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But my concern is that in attempting to deal with those issues, it's very, very important that there is due process.
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And we have seen one or two instances, and it's hard to know what you believe based on what's going on and what's being reported, of people who are not fitting of that description being deported to a country they've never even been to and being stuck in a prison with the worst criminals in the world. And likewise with those... Look... I'm on record as saying this, and I will say it again.
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Reducing the size of government is a massive, massive priority for every Western country. It needs to be done. And I'm not just talking about eliminating waste and fraud, which needs to be done. And I hope to God that happens, and it happens quickly.
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And I think part of the reason they're doing it quickly is the only way to do it, because otherwise the machine and the blob is going to swallow you up. But in that process, you're also potentially going to cause issues. And so all of these things have to be done quickly and carefully, and that's very, very difficult to do.
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So I am excited for Doge, and I hope we get one in the UK and in other countries. But again, you just worry a little bit that as that happens, some babies get thrown out with the bathwater. Gold just exploded past $2,800 an ounce, shattering all records. This isn't just another headline.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
It's part of what experts call the Great Wealth Shift, the largest transfer of money from the middle class to the elites in history. Here's what's really happening. While inflation devours your savings, the wealthy are converting their dollars into gold. They know that every time Washington prints more money, your retirement loses value. But their gold grows stronger.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
President Trump warned about this. He called it when he said, the dollar is going to hell. And now JP Morgan has quietly purchased nearly a thousand tons of gold and central banks are buying at the fastest pace in 55 years. They're preparing for something big. But here's the good news. You still have time to protect yourself if you act now.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And he has. The people who are concerned about the size of government thought that that's what he would deal with, and that's what he's doing. The people who were concerned about illegal immigration, which is a lot of people, thought that that's what he'd deal with, and he is dealing with it. But also, he's also doing quite a lot of things that he never talked about on the campaign trail.
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We are here. And what the left did is they destroyed language and they destroyed faith in the mainstream media. So now... Words like Nazi don't mean anything anymore. And reporting in publications like Time Magazine, which is where that story was originated, or Forbes, et cetera, we don't really know what to believe.
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But I do also think, I think if you're objective about this, if you're not partisan, you have to recognize that when you're rounding up hundreds and hundreds of people, it is not unlikely that one or two people are going to get caught up in it who are not supposed to be there, right? Mm-hmm.
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And so what you'd hope is that there is a process for making sure that the people to whom this happens have access to due process, they can appeal, et cetera, which, you know, I hope that happens. The problem is, you know, as we talked about with the Signal story, when a government does things that it shouldn't do, the incentive structure is not likely to encourage them to admit that and correct.
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The incentive structure is to pretend it didn't happen, to cover it up, et cetera. So I just, look, I really hope that in dealing with illegal immigration, the US administration, and also if we ever get to that point in our country. I hope it gets dealt with quickly.
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I don't massively care about, you know, we joke all the time about there was a guy who couldn't be deported from the UK because his kid likes chicken nuggets that are all of this stuff. I don't give a shit about any of that. If you come to a country illegally and commit crime, I don't massively care about making sure you're okay in every way. If you get deported and you end up in prison, good.
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But we can't throw away the baby with the bathwater. And I think one of the reasons America is so great is that there is a legal system that allows people recourse to appeal and so on. And I think that's really important.
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All of this stuff about Canada and Greenland and the Panama Canal, etc. I don't remember that being an issue that was discussed. Another interesting thing that's happening is we had a lot of conversations with people behind the scenes, not even on camera particularly, about... the rise in the impact of the religious aspect of the right.
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Now, look, here's where I'll say something that I think is a very complicated issue. My understanding, I don't know the law very well. I have read a few things about it, and my understanding is it's very complicated. However, you and I, I think, are always going to err on the side of people being allowed to speak their mind and not be punished for it.
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And so from that perspective, I think deporting people who express their lawful opinion in public, even if it's at a protest, I think is totally wrong. On the other hand, and this is not about the specific incident, so just to be clear, I think people who say things that people don't like shouldn't be deported from the country.
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Just as a matter of principle, I'm not talking about these specific cases because I don't know the details exactly. The claim is they were pro-Hamas or whatever. I don't know if that's true. But if they are pro-Hamas, I think that needs to be established in court as opposed to someone just saying it and then these people being removed. On the other hand... It's not even on the other hand.
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That is said, and I don't take back any of that. But you and I are visitors to the United States. Would you go to a protest to protest about stuff in this country as a visitor? No. And neither would I. And I think the reason for that is there's a fundamental recognition that there's a difference between being a citizen of a country and being a visitor there or having a visa to come there.
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And we've got a conversation that will come out in a while with Barry Strauss, who's one of our favorite historians, talking about the collapse of the Roman Empire and how he sees parallels in the modern world. And one of the things he mentioned is once you erode the concept of citizenship,
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and the privileges and the duties that come with that that's when you're going down a very dangerous path and i think that's true and my sense is that again i say i think the legal system in america in relation to this issue is quite complicated and so i'm not commenting on that i'm just saying as a matter of principle i think it's perfectly fine
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for a distinction to be made between citizens and non-citizens. And I think actually that distinction needs to be made stronger and wider. And I think we need to say that in order for us to have a cohesive society, you gain lots of rights and duties when you become a citizen of the country. And until you are, you may not be subject to all the exact same rules.
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And I say that as someone who was for a very long time in that position in Britain as a first-generation immigrant and someone who visits the United States. I don't feel entitled to act like a dick in America because this isn't my country.
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And when we talk about American politics and policy and things that happen here, I think we both always try to do it from a place of understanding that this isn't our country and we have a respect for it. And there's certain things we don't understand about it.
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And I think if setting aside the legalistic arguments and setting aside the fact that we already said people who just expressed their opinion in our view, should not be removed from a country.
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But Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, makes the point that if you told us when you made your visa applications, and you and I both know that the process for getting an American visa is quite involved, and rightly so, you know, why shouldn't you be able to just come here?
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That was your experience with the embassy, but not mine. And my point is this. I think that if you what he's saying is if you told us that this is what you would do on your visa application, we never would have let you into the country. And I think that distinction is also important. I think we have to, as a culture in Britain, certainly, and I would argue in America as well as an outsider,
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And we hosted some conversations on camera in which that was also discussed. But I think the main question that a lot of people don't know the answer to is there's quite a lot of stuff that the Trump administration is doing that most people would agree with. like their domestic policies and a lot of things, like dealing with mass illegal immigration, closing the border.
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make the distinction very clear between people who are here as visitors and people who have taken on the opportunity and also the burden of citizenship. And when you take on the duties and burdens of citizenship, that comes with an expanded set of rights.
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I don't think it is in the interest of our country or in the interest of America to welcome lots of people from other countries so that they can then start basically slagging off this country. I don't really see how that is... appropriate. And so what I'm saying is I think we really have to dial in on this idea that Thank you.
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Tariffs are something that people kind of thought that he would do, maybe not to the same extent. But I think the big question is, what is his overall posture towards the world. Why is he talking so much about these territories near the United States and what he wants to do about that?
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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And also how he's going to deal with Ukraine, how he's going to deal with Israel, how he's going to deal with Iran. And this is the real thing that I don't think anyone expected to be the way it has been. How is he going to deal with Europe? Because we have seen quite a lot of things coming out of the Trump administration. with J.D.
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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So, yeah, I'm glad that efforts are being made to secure peace in Ukraine. That's important and necessary. I'm very, very concerned that the way that's going to get done is not the way that it should be.
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Vance, those leaked signal messages, etc., where you go, oh, these people, they really, really, really do not like Europe.
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And the worst thing is... We don't know which one of those is right. It seems to me that there isn't any logical reason why the invasion wouldn't be repeated and then the entire world wouldn't find itself right here again.
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The one thing for balance that I think we can be very positive about, or at least it seems like at the moment, is what's happening in the Middle East. Because what you see, the current White House understands very well that the conflicts, not just in Israel and Gaza, but elsewhere in the Middle East are about one thing, which is Islamists versus everybody else.
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And so what I see them doing is they're attempting to align the moderate Arab governments
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with israel against those forces because the the the arab rulers of those countries who are muslims they don't want anything to do with islamists because islamists are a direct threat to them because islamists don't believe in national states they want a caliphate they want to remove those people who lead those countries and replace them with one big caliphate um and of course we all know that that is being funded and encouraged by iran so
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Donald Trump was able to make quite a bit of progress in his first term, and it looks like they are very clear-headed about what's happening in the Middle East and are moving in the right direction. Gaza aside, you know, that's obviously a big mess, and, you know, we hope that that ends because it's terrible what's happening there.
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But I think I'm much more hopeful about their plan for the Middle East.
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And I don't think it's just him, by the way. I think it's a broader thing within the Trump administration now. And it's understandable. And you and I, I think, would agree that when it comes to defense spending, for example, Europe has been absolutely taking the piss. Yeah. Absolutely taking the piss.
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And I think part of it is, like you say, the rhetoric. Part of it is also, and I think Charlemagne made this point and it made a lot of sense to me, which is people begin to care. Let's be honest, right? Let's be honest. Americans don't mind spending a bit of money bombing a country on the other side of the world. Right. They've never had an issue with that. Yeah.
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Americans like having a powerful military and they're prepared to use it.
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The problem is when ordinary people are hurting, that's when they suddenly start going, well, why are we sending money to this country? Why are we sending money to that country? And of course, they're not hurting because they sent a hundred billion dollars worth of weaponry to Ukraine. That sounds like a lot of money. And it is.
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But that is a drop in the ocean when it comes to the United States budget, right? The reason they're hurting is decades of government mismanagement of the economy. And that's where, again, I'm very excited. I think the re-industrialization agenda is great. I really hope that happens in America, and I really hope that inspires us in the UK in particular, but elsewhere in the Western world,
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We have got to recognize that we do not live in the Francis Fukuyama wonderland. We have to be able to produce our own steel. We have to be able to produce our own energy. We have to be able to make things. And that's important not only for defense. It's important for our people to have meaningful jobs that allow them to make money, put food on the table, have a family.
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These things are very, very important. And reindustrializing our countries is a big part of that. And it's necessary.
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We've been living under the American nuclear umbrella, not investing in our own defense, not investing in our own services, running them down to completely... ridiculous levels, while at the same time increasing over time and spending more and more money on welfare. And I totally understand the American position. The American position is, look, we don't have a huge welfare state.
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Well, the real world is about to wake Britain up because we're headed for bankruptcy. And this is not an exaggeration. Liam Halligan, who we just had on the show, he wrote about this on the Substack. We are heading to an IMF bailout. That's the direction we're going in. And no amount of raising taxes is going to help that, right? We've got to grow the economy.
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We've got to scrap net zero immediately. We have got to do everything possible to produce our own energy. I don't care how much carbon it produces. I'm sorry, I don't. We have to look after our people today and our children and our grandchildren who are going to be paying these debts off for the next 60 years, if we're lucky. So we've got to grow the economy.
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We've got to cut all of these luxury beliefs and... That is going to be a big shift. And it's not going to be easy. And it's not going to be painless. But our country needs to wake up. People in America have had that wake-up call. And to the extent that they're doing good things, I think we should be inspired by that.
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And we should bring that to the UK and take the best of it and do everything we can. Because otherwise, we're just going to continue to decline. And I don't want that for our country.
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Did he have a license for that opinion, mate?
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What's happening in Britain is just we're becoming the laughingstock of the world.
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So all of that shit needs to end. Obviously, we've got a Labour government who I'm sure are going to do everything in their power to sort that out. But even the Labour government, I mean, if you look at the economics of it, the Labour government is making massive cuts.
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They're not big enough for what we need, but they're still making cuts because everyone knows we're in a completely unsustainable situation. So that wake-up call... And if we don't... Look, and this is what's going to happen. This much I can tell you with some confidence. Either we heed that wake-up call now or things are going to get worse until there's a wake-up call we simply cannot ignore.
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Yeah. That is the choice that Britain faces today. And that's where we are. Yeah. That is where we are. But look. All right. America's fucked. Britain's fucked. The world's fucked. Thanks for watching. Give us money. To give us money, head on over to Substack, where we're about to answer questions that you guys have sent in. The link is in the description.
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That's not the American way. So why should we be paying for yours?
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Frederick says, how did you find the White House? And what was the feeling walking into the building?
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There's a couple of questions about whether we plan to move to America. Yeah.
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Well, right, that's one of the arguments people here will make about Ukraine. It's like, you guys say you want to support Ukraine, but Europe... got more money, spent more money on Russian gas, rather, during the course of the war than it gave to the Ukrainians in support. So you were telling us we've got to pay for that while you guys de-industrialize, don't produce our own energy.
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Like the UK is, I think, the Chinese owner of the UK's last steel-making facilities. It's just made the decision to shut them down. So Britain has four times the industrial energy prices of America. We're not able to make our own virgin steel, which is what you need for military use. Why would an ally like that be valuable to the United States? So I do understand that. I also think that...
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there is a risk that that rhetoric becomes self-fulfilling and Europe and America do end up just kind of going in separate directions, which I think would be bad for both countries, actually, for Europe and for America.
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We're becoming the laughingstock of the world.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Because J.D. Vance, and by the way, I agree with a lot of what he said in Munich. I agree with a lot of the stuff he said at the AI Summit, and I thought it was a really interesting speech that he gave for reasons we can get into. But if you look at what they're saying in those group chats in the Signal thing.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And we'll see how that plays out. Like I say, I think I see the American argument and I am deeply, deeply frustrated with the British government of the country that we are from and many, many European countries that have lived... Let's be honest, this is cloud cuckoo land. You cannot...
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
destroy your own industry, your own jobs for the sake of quote unquote saving the planet, which we're absolutely not doing. And we won't be able to do when China, India, and now the United States are completely just not pursuing those policies at all. Those are the three countries that produce the most CO2 in the world, if that's your concern.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Clearly, this notion that Britain can save the world by leading the way on those issues is ridiculous because no one's following.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
So when we suicide our country in order to reduce our contribution to global carbon emissions from 2% to 1% or even to 0%, when no one follows that, we are not helping anything and we're ruining our own economy, which means that we're not able to project our power, which means we're not a good ally to the United States. I think that will play out.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And my understanding of many of the Trump policies is that he's going out to an extreme in order to encourage Europeans to do more, which they're doing. And hopefully, you know, the argument we've heard about tariffs is something we haven't mentioned yet, is that the reason Donald Trump is doing this is he actually wants a zero tariff world, which it isn't.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And the way to achieve a zero tariff world is to make people see that when you put tariffs on American stuff, it's not good for America. It's also not good for you. So let's all go to zero. We're not there yet. That is still ongoing.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But I think the other thing, and this is important because we talked about this with Joe Rogan on his show. What we also saw from the Signal Group chat is the reaction to it from a lot of people in the new media and in the old media. where, look, obviously the people on the left are going to jump on that as an opportunity to try and criticize the administration. And so they should.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And so they should. But you also see that those of us who have called out the craziness of the woke period that has been ongoing for some time, we, I think, you and I and others, try to be honest and say, look, this was not a good thing. Like, if you add a journalist to a signal group in which... Plans for U.S. attacks on Yemen are being discussed. That's not a good thing.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But you also saw that a lot of people are just partisan and they try and pretend it away, claim that this journalist is a bad person. Maybe he is a bad person. Doesn't mean that...
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
adding him to his signal group is a good thing and i think one of the things that you're about to see is a big pivot that i think this space is going to split into those people and look i'll give you an example i've had run-ins with glenn greenwald online we've had him on our show i said some things about him that were not complimentary after you know in part of of our discussions whatever
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But he's been very principled on things like this, as have many other people. But there's also going to be a section of people who they never really cared about the truth. They never really cared about being balanced. They just care about their side. And to them, it's like red team, blue team.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
They're on team red, and they'll ignore everything that team red does that's bad and focus only on what team blue does. And I think that's going to be a big split in this space.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But that guy is in, and I think, look, neither of us is American, so this is just an outside perspective, and it's up to Americans how they run their government and blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's 100% accurate. But from my perspective, I would say the same thing about the U.K.,
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
If you get people into power that you think are better than the people that are there now, you nonetheless want them to be accountable. You nonetheless want them to admit mistakes and correct mistakes. You nonetheless want them to... to have their feet held to the fire for things that they do that are fair.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I think the strategy that the White House employed in this issue was very strange because they admitted it was a mistake. They admitted it was real. Several people, Tulsi Gabbard included, said it was a mistake. I think Mike Walsh himself said it was a mistake. But they also, at the same time, tried to attack the journalist for... reporting being added to a signal group.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Every journalist in history would have done that, right? Would have published that story and would have done it the way that he did. So it's just an attempt to pretend that a mistake wasn't made, even though you've admitted a mistake. It doesn't make any sense. And I think the fastest way to lose credibility with sensible people
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
the overwhelming majority of this country, is to pretend that you didn't make a mistake when you did, when you obviously did, and not to admit it and not to apologize and not to say, we're going to investigate this and find out what's going on.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
That's probably what they think. But the difference is that the problem with cancel culture was people being unfairly treated and misrepresented and lied about. And if someone accuses you of something that you haven't done, or if someone claims that you've said something that you haven't said, and you and I both had those experiences, of course you should never apologize in that situation.
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But the question is, can there be a sense in America that the American dream is alive, that you do not have to work three gig economy jobs to pay your rent, that you're going to be able to buy a house, that you're going to be able to afford to have children, that you're going to be able to raise a family, perhaps on a single income, something that most people only dream about nowadays.
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That's really what this whole economic conversation is about. And we will see over the next four years if Donald Trump is able to slightly even change the direction of travel towards those things that actually Americans of my generation and older used to take for granted as the promise of the country that they live in.
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Well, I'm glad you asked me about Elon Musk because the thing that I love most about the media having this massive meltdown about, oh no, these Americans are interfering in our political. These are the same media commentators who are constantly banging on about American politics and saying, Donald Trump needs to do this. You need to vote for this. Like all of this stuff is ridiculous.
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The reality is we download our culture, our politics, our music, almost everything from America. America has become what Britain used to be, which is the center of Western civilization.
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And my request and ask and begging of British people is, if we're going to download American culture and politics, let's at least take the good stuff instead of all this terrible woke shit that we downloaded from them, the DEI and all this other nonsense.
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and actually take the entrepreneurial spirit and all these other things that are really great about America, the optimism, the positivity, the willingness to have a go, to take a risk, as Scott was talking about. So I wish we took more of that. And it speaks to your question about are we a failing nation. Look, I think...
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It's a deliberately inflammatory question, which I don't want to kind of actually accept in that way. But what I think we should acknowledge is, are we trending up or are we trending down? And when you talk about over 10,000 millionaires have left, I hear that through a normal British person's ear.
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And I worry that there's quite a lot of British people who will hear that and say, oh, good, all of these rich parasites have left. Because that's our attitude in the UK to a very large extent. We see wealthy people not as what they are, which is for the most part, not everybody, but for the most part, people who've created a tremendous amount of value financially.
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for their fellow human beings, and as a result of that have been rewarded. We see them because we have this history of the landed gentry. And so to us, a millionaire is someone who has these ill-gotten gains that they don't deserve, right? That is not really the world we live in. When I talk to wealthy people in this country and pretty much everywhere else,
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For the most part, especially in the Western world, these are people who've created something that has fundamentally helped other human beings do something better, do something easier, buy products cheaper, whatever it is. That's who the successful people really are. And we just need an attitude shift. That's what we should be downloading from America.
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What we should be saying inside our heads is this person is successful because they've helped other people. Great. How do we get more of those people into our country? And I'm afraid I'm telling you something that you know better than anyone, Stephen. If you don't have entrepreneurs in your country creating businesses and creating jobs, the economy is going to stagnate for the rest of eternity.
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We have to get smart, talented, driven people into our country instead of chasing them out.
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It was almost like demonizing men for decades has consequences. I mean, this is what's been happening. Men are the root of all evil, the root of all evil, the root of all evil. Every advert is about, you know, the woman is strong and capable, the guy's pathetic. In every movie, the woman's kicking ass and the man is pathetic. This has been going on for decades.
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It's a cultural thing as well as an economic thing. And many of us have been saying that when you take meaning and opportunity away from men, if you create an education system that punishes boys for being boys, if you create a society in which traditional masculine virtues become vices... then you will create exactly the sort of thing that Scott is talking about.
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It's a terrible thing that's been done. Having said that, my message is always the same to young men who I hope are listening, which is the answer to your problems is never going to be, as Scott says, porn and this and that. The answer to your problems is going to take responsibility, go out and get a job or create a business and actually make your life better. No one's coming to save you.
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No one's coming to help you. There is no... the sort of programs that we have for women where we sort of go, well, you know, let's give them an opportunity here. None of that's happening for men. It's not going to happen because for evolutionary reasons, we just don't feel sorry for men the way that we do for women. That's a reality.
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I know it sucks, but the answer for men is going to be the answer that's always been the answer for men, which is for you to get off the sofa, to get off the couch and go out and actually do and create and build and find your own way through it.
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Even if you have to acknowledge that the society you live in has been conditioned for quite a long time to think that you're a piece of shit because you happen to have the genitalia that you do. Now, that I think is the harsh reality of it. And I think Scott is right to point this out as a problem. And I hope that we start to have...
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both in terms of economic policy, but in terms of also just the cultural conversations and the way we talk about these issues.
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We come back to something that human beings have known through the entire history of our species, which is men and women are both good and need to work together in order to thrive and succeed together, in order to have families, in order to have children, and in order for us to have healthy communities and healthy societies. You need healthy femininity and
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and you need healthy masculinity, and they need to come together and work together. That's what we're supposed to do. And these stupid gender wars and this idea that men as a group are this and women as a group are that, all of that just needs to end.
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That's exactly right. That's exactly right, Stephen.
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And I think if we take a step back and look at why DEI has become such a big part of the conversation, it's precisely because instead of addressing the reality of people's lives, which is some people are disadvantaged and some people are advantaged, actually what we've mainly done, and Scott alluded to at the very beginning of our discussion, is we've given a leg up to very...
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wealthy, ethnic minority people from successful families. And they now, their children now get into prestigious universities, which they probably would have done anyway, some of them, because they come from very advanced backgrounds. And the kids that are growing up in poverty, black and white, have no shot whatsoever.
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But the reason that it's become such a big issue around the Western world, actually, I don't think it's the nuances that we've delved into here, but actually something else, which is we have created... the most ethnically diverse societies in history.
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And what I mean by that is not that we've created societies in which there are large groups of people who are different from each other, but for the first time, probably in human history, we've created societies in which there is a lot of ethnic diversity and there is no overt discrimination against some groups of people in the sense of
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You know, the imperial societies in the past would have had one dominant ethnic group, which is, you know, the Russians in the Soviet Union or the Turks in the Ottoman Empire or the Brits in the British Empire, whatever. That was the ethnic group that was like the dominant one. And everybody else was a kind of second class citizen and everybody knew it. Right. We don't have that anymore.
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We have highly diverse societies where people of every single background exist. in which we have this idea that we're all supposed to be equal. When we have programs that explicitly discriminate against people, there were times when the discrimination was explicit against black people.
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Well, we've gone full circle now where the discrimination was going the other way in university admissions, in hiring, in corporate America, in government, in all sorts of things. In this country, the BBC has internships that aren't available to white people. etc.
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When you get to that point, as Scott said earlier on, everyone just goes, look, I know I'm not supposed to say this, but the reality is this is racism. This is a form of racism. And I thought we were trying to get away from the racism.
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So to the extent that the elimination of DEI is about creating a merit-based society in which people are given an opportunity because they're skilled and talented and they have the potential to actually achieve things, and create wealth. You know, we all know this. We all employ people, right? How many of us are thinking about the races of the people we hire?
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I don't think we think about that at all. What we're thinking about is I run a business. I need the very best person to very best possible person for this job at the price I'm willing to pay. I don't care if they are purple, green, blue, white, whatever. It doesn't matter. What matters is are we getting the best person for the job? And my concern about identity politics has always been
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that if we do not adopt that worldview, then what we will do is create a worldview in which we have different racial groups competing with each other on the basis of race. And that is a very, very dangerous mix for a multi-ethnic society like ours, which is why I've been begging people to let go of this stupid idea
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of identity politics and to say, first and foremost, we are all Brits or we are all Americans. We have this umbrella identity under which we all operate and our personal ethnicity or sex or whatever is secondary to that. And actually for the purposes of employment, for the purposes of college admission, et cetera, is irrelevant.
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Yes, if there is disadvantage, if we grew up in a single parent home with a low income, we may need some extra support there. If we had terrible schooling or our education was not good, we may need extra support. If there's certain things that make it easier for us because of the disadvantages we've had to fulfill our talent and potential, I'm all for that.
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But what we've created so far, and that's why I'm delighted it's being eliminated, is an anti-meritocratic system which says, we don't care what you bring to the workplace. We don't care whether you deserve this place or not. We don't care about the potential you have. Actually, we just needed an insert category tick box to fill this slot. And you filled it.
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It doesn't really matter that you're not doing your job very well because now we can say, you know, we're a diverse company. I don't care about that. And we shouldn't care about that as a society. And thank God that's now gone.
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I think it's incredibly unwise to make bold predictions about what's going to happen over the next six to seven months. I do think what America had at the election and what the election of Donald Trump represents is something that we in the UK don't have, which is choice.
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Net, yes. But I think what people hear when you say that is there's no problems with this system compared to the ones we had before. There are definitely disadvantages to a free platform like X now. And one of them is... inevitably, when you remove censorship, one of the things the censorship was doing was keeping all the deeply unpleasant people away from being able to shove things in your face.
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And that happens quite a lot on X. So I don't enjoy that aspect of it. But I've always said that would be the price that we would pay for freedom. Freedom always has a price, and that's what we're seeing. As for Zuckerberg, His miraculous transformation into a free speech warrior is just wonderful. And I'm delighted to welcome him.
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I'm sure it's entirely genuine and not anything to do with the election results we've just seen in any way whatsoever. And the fact that the culture shifted and those of us who were being censored by people like him for years actually winning the argument. Well, what it shows you is we've won the argument on free speech. when it comes to the big tech platforms. And it's going to be messy.
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They had a very clear choice between two very different perspectives on the world, between two very different approaches, between two very different candidates. And ultimately, criticisms of President Trump are necessary and legitimate. Of course, they are.
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And I always said it was going to be messy because inevitably when you create these large platforms that are algorithmically driven, where the truth and the moderate reasonable take is not what usually gets attention, you're going to see a lot of unpleasantness. I value the ability to hear and communicate truthful ideas and facts over my own subjective feelings.
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Oh, someone said a thing I don't like or someone was racist or someone was misogynistic. I don't enjoy the fact that that happens, but I would rather that happened and also we were not being censored from saying, you know, COVID probably came from a lab in China, which we were. You know, the... The Hunter Biden laptop story isn't Russian disinformation.
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Actually, it's an important piece of information that American voters need to hear when they're making their decision about the election. And all of these other things that were being suppressed and censored across social media for years.
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they're not anymore and i think that's a good thing and i think that's helpful and if you look at you know to bring it back to the uk for a moment stephen uh as you know on trigonometry we've tried to cover the grooming gangs uh scandal and is as an outrage what happened in this country over decades we've we've been covering that for years since about 2019 2020 to very little purchase
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And one of the reasons is it was just something that the media sort of covered and then moved on when it actually should have been something we talked about on a daily basis until serious action was taken. And we saw real, real change, real change in policing, real change in social work, real change in government, real change in the way that these racially aggravated hate crimes were treated.
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Well, none of that was really being talked about seriously until Elon kicked up a fuss amplified the voices of survivors, amplified the voices of campaigners on X, which he bought, and now the British government is forced to do whatever it can to actually address those issues to the extent that it will. A lot of people will say it still doesn't go far enough.
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Well, if it doesn't go far enough, we now have a platform from which we can continue to have that conversation until there is the sort of inquiry and the sort of outcomes that people want to actually deliver real change. So is that a positive? God, yes. God, yes. We needed that.
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But at the end of the day, I believe, having spent quite a lot of time in America around election time and also just generally and traveling around real America, not just in D.C. and L.A. and New York, The reason that he was elected was that the American people are not prepared to accept what Europeans have decided they're prepared to accept, which is managed decline.
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Those women who were raped on a mass scale needed their voices to be amplified by someone like Elon Musk on a platform like X, which is now free. to the point where Keir Starmer is forced into defensive action. I wish that was around 30 years ago, because a hell of a lot of young girls and women wouldn't have suffered the way they did if we had the opportunity to get that message out.
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So, God, yes, it's a net positive.
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I think there are several reasons. One of the reasons that it's happening now is actually most Americans were completely unaware of this issue until recently. I remember a year ago speaking at a private event in New York and somebody said to me, well, you know, what is the consequence of political correctness? Why are you so against it? Why are you so against censorship?
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And I talked about the grooming gangs and people were horrified. They hadn't even, and these are well-informed, educated people who are media savvy and whatever. So one of the reasons is I think to a lot of Americans, this issue is only coming to the fore now in front of their mind.
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The second issue, I think, is that Elon Musk understands what I said earlier, which is we have a global Western culture now. And so what happens in Britain matters just as much as what happens in America because we are symbiotic with each other now.
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When there's a restriction of speech in the UK, when we have laws about what people are and aren't allowed to say, that has an impact across the world. When you see the European Union trying to pass legislation about online censorship, that has an impact because if something...
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exists in the UK and in many European countries, it's only a matter of time before people in America are going to say, well, look, they've got this in Europe. Why don't we bring it over here? And vice versa. So what happens in America affects us in Europe and in the UK. And what happens in Europe and the UK affects America. So what Elon, I think, is trying to do
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is to say we care about our civilization. Elon doesn't really talk that much about the United States. He talks about our civilization as I do, because I believe that we are now one thing to a very significant extent.
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Now, from our civilizational point of view, is it a good thing that mass rape gangs in the UK are being insufficiently investigated and treated improperly by the police and the government? No, it's not. It's a very bad thing. So how do we address that? Well, we address that by putting pressure on the government of the day. Now, I don't see the grooming gangs as a party political issue.
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The Tories didn't really do anything about it properly either, although there were individual members of the cabinet that tried to do something like Suela Braverman. But he's putting pressure on the government of the day. You can see him going after Nigel Farage, of all people, and saying Nigel Farage is not the right leader for reform.
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So he's attempting to shape British politics in the direction that he feels is the right way. What does he want?
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Look, I don't know what Elon Musk wants. I don't know him personally. I haven't even yet had a chance to interview him, which I really look forward to doing because I think he's one of the great visionaries of our time. Whether you like him or not, I think that's undeniably true. But my sense is he's trying to talk about all the things that we've been discussing, freedom of expression,
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The American people do not want their country to become weaker. They do not want it to become poorer. They do not want to impoverish their fellow citizens through net zero. What they want is their country to be great, their country to be powerful, their country to be influential. The economic realities for most Americans are not really reflected in the figures that we are told.
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the end of identity politics and the pursuit of meritocracy, a pioneering, inspiring vision of the future, which is why he's talking about Mars and a vision for our civilization that goes beyond the narrow squabbling that we do here on Earth. and the understanding that human beings are meant... We left the cave.
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We're not supposed to stay in a place with the walls closing in on us and feel like we're in decline. We're not supposed to be a civilisation that has 1.5 children per woman and that is simply just leaving the planet Earth because we can't reproduce. We're supposed to look at the future with hope and optimism. We're supposed to say, I want things to be better.
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I want things to be better for my children. I want to have children. I want the vision of our society being one of positivity and optimism and a sense of a pioneering vision and inspiration. That's what I think he wants. And...
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i don't really see any of that in the current government in the uk and i think he's right to go after them and say you are destroying your country's economy you're destroying its culture you're destroying its sense of cohesiveness by allowing illegal immigration you are destroying that sense of optimism and vision and you're not saying to people let's build something better you're saying let's stay small let's play small let's not rise above our station and i think
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We need people like that, imperfect as they may be in all sorts of different ways, to drive our civilization forward, to say to us there is an inspiring vision to which we're all moving as opposed to just sitting there and waiting to die, which is what we've been doing for far too long.
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So when people talk about inflation, the reality of people's lives on the ground is that their cost of living has gone up very, very significantly over the last few years. And that's not always reflected directly in the overall inflation figure that we're shown because certain things are much more influential in people's lives than others.
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And so whether the decision to elect President Trump ends up being this positive thing for which there should be lots of optimism is a matter of the next four years? Are we going to see a presidency that really does everything it promises? And by the way, you know, if you look at the things that Donald Trump is promising,
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They thought that before the internet. I remember watching all the 9-11 truth of movies and all of that. But your point overall is right. I totally agree. And by the way, Elon agrees with you. When he bought X, he talked about the bot problem. He talked about the amplification of outrage.
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He hasn't done as much as I hoped he would have done so far, but I hope that they do address that because that isn't an Elon or an X problem. It's a technology problem of the modern world.
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The reality is that the more we live our lives online, the more you're going to have the problem of the ability of foreign governments, of individual people to create fake accounts, bot farms, et cetera, to influence the way we look at all of these things. And we are going to have to come to terms with that reality because...
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It's a technological issue that we're going to have to solve for, and we haven't yet.
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I think whether you're left or right, you have to acknowledge that they are things that are worth doing. Having a secure border so that people don't come into your country illegally is a basic duty of government. Economic prosperity is a basic duty of government. Withdrawing America from a kind of
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No, no. I think we're living through an era of the fragmentation of our reality. And it comes, you know, Scott's point about people behaving better in person is true. Although I would say there is the windscreen effect or the windshield effect, which is if you someone cuts you up in traffic and you feel that there's some kind of physical separation between the two of you.
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most people behave slightly differently in that context than they would if they were sitting next to somebody face to face in a bar.
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So it's, it's, there's something about being physically present with other people that changes it, which is one of the reasons, you know, I know you have pretty much all your interviews face to face and we do as well, because I generally speaking is very difficult to connect authentically with people.
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Obviously we've managed to do it in the course of this conversation, but beyond that, it's difficult. Um, And so we're going to have to work on that. But the point I'm trying to make is this isn't a political issue. It's not an X issue. It's not an Elon Musk issue. It's a technological issue. We're living through, probably already have lived through most of the digital revolution.
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And I used to, as a kid, love Isaac Asimov's science fiction books. And one of the reasons I did enjoy reading them so much is it was a world in which there was an exploration of, What does the creation of robots, which is what we're living through,
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mean for morality what does it mean for philosophy what does it mean for humanity what does it mean for uh what how do we build rules in a world in which you have these machines that take every rule literally and suddenly you find that uh you know the desire to protect humanity results in the end of humanity how do you how do you navigate all of this and that is what we're living through we are also living through a period when our realities are being fragmented and so
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simultaneously aggressive but weak posture around the world where America sort of says, yeah, yeah, we're going to get involved in these foreign conflicts, but we're not actually going to then practically help Ukraine win that war is a kind of stupid position on both whichever side you're on. So on all of these things, and of course, you know, Scott mentioned wokeness.
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we believe a very small set of things that other people like us somewhere in a very different part of the world, as Daniel was saying earlier, also believe. And we now live in this, we don't live in England or in Scotland or in America. We live almost like in a world of people who think like us in the West, right?
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And then other people live right next door to us who live in a whole different world because they consume a whole different set of information. That is the reality. We can complain about it. That is not going to change. And the only thing I really want to raise where I disagree with Scott about this idea that Facebook and X, et cetera, they are... and not platforms.
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I don't think you can apply the same media organisation section to them. I don't think it's appropriate. They are platforms in which people publish information. The artificial amplification is a fair point. We need to deal with that. We need to deal with the bot problem. That's a very difficult one because...
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One of the challenges is the only way to really deal that I can see with the bot problem is to get people to verify their identity online. That obviously has a lot of questions around that because once you start forcing people to give their identity over to some anonymous blob online, who's collecting that data? What are they doing with it?
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And, you know, if you don't like Elon Musk or if you don't like the previous Twitter regime, as I didn't, then the question for you is, well, you know, let's say right now I look at Twitter and I'm like, yeah, I'm happy to verify my identity. I'm happy to confirm who I am. Well, what if, you know, George Soros buys X off Elon at some point? Are you still happy that that information is being held?
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Are you still happy that the anonymous account you've now made You know, what happens to the anonymous activists speaking about the Ayatollah's regime in Iran? What happens to them when they've had to verify their identity and the wrong person buys our platform or someone hacks it, et cetera?
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So it's a conversation that's not – if there were easier solutions on these issues, they would have been solved by now. This is a very difficult thing for humanity to navigate, and we're going to have to find a way to do it, and incrementally so.
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I think he's absolutely right that there is a massive backlash happening around the world because lots and lots of people who were completely apolitical until the last three or four years or maybe until 2016 just feel like the world has gone crazy and suddenly they're supposed to pretend that men can change sex and become women and now they're entitled to be in female prisons and
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I agree. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think some of the ideas that you're putting forward, right or wrong, I don't know, but these are the conversations we should be having. How do we make sure? I mean, my son is two and a half years old, and my wife has become a complete screen Nazi, so he's probably not going to get a phone until he's about 40.
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But I think your point about people shouldn't be on social media.
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People shouldn't be on social media until they're 16. Absolutely correct. What that's doing to the minds of, well, everybody, but particularly young people who are really susceptible to it. You're completely right. The verification dimension is difficult, as I say. We're going to have to hash this all out as humanity. We're just going to have to work this all out.
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How do we live in this new world that we now live in? It's going to take some time, and I hope it's not as bad as the last time the information space was revolutionized, which was the printing press. That caused about two centuries of religious war. Hopefully we can avoid that. And part of the way to do that is to create environments which are uncensored, where people can express different ideas.
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We can have these battles and eventually come to some sort of mutual understanding. I hope that happens.
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you know, if your teenager says that they are the opposite sex, you're supposed to chop their breasts off, and all of this other stuff that ordinary people just look at and go, this is crazy. Like, I am liberal, but this isn't liberal. This is some kind of weird thing that's going on.
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In the UK and in most of Europe, it's an issue that Daniel raised earlier, which is in the UK, our energy prices are four times what they are in the United States. That is an ideological decision. It's done because we're saving the planet. That's what we're being told. The reality is our contribution to global carbon emissions is we're responsible for 2% of global carbon emissions in the world.
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And I see the backlash against all of that all over the Western world, and I think Donald Trump signifies that people are fed up of that. And I have been warning for a very long time that if the woke left continues to exercise this level of influence on our public debate, the reaction will be the rise of the right.
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Making British pensioners freeze to death every winter because they can't afford fuel bills is not the solution to climate change. And if you amplify that further, driving businesses out of business, making our economy uncompetitive, making Britain unable to generate wealth for itself and for its future is not the moral position. Net zero.
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which is the impoverishment of our society for ideological reasons, has been positioned as the moral cause where we're saving the planet, we're ending climate change. We're not doing any of that. All we're doing is virtue signalling and making our fellow citizens suffer. So what we should be talking about is how do we make energy cheap again so that we can have a prosperous economy?
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And guess what? When people are prosperous, that's when they actually start being responsible about pollution, about throwing away things they don't need. And also, when you have money, that's when you can invest money in scientific research, which allows you to find cleaner, better forms of energy. That's what we should be doing.
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We should be making sure that we generate as much wealth for our fellow citizens as possible because a lot of people are struggling.
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And I think it's deeply, deeply immoral to impoverish already poor pensioners in this country and to prevent businesses from hiring people and giving them jobs and opportunities, including the young men that Scott is talking about, because we are saving the planet and we're trying to keep little Greta happy. We're not doing any of that. We're not successful in that.
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We should stop pretending and we should do what Donald Trump said he plans to do, which is drill, baby, drill. We should be exploring and exploiting all the energy reserves we have in this country in order to create clean energy and better forms of energy for the future, as well as to improve the well-being of our fellow citizens.
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That's what we should be talking about a hell of a lot more than we are.
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And in the UK too. And Stephen, let me just, before you wrap up, fill the stats out a little bit more. Obviously, everyone understands that geopolitically we're in a pretty tense time and there's conflicts happening. Britain is in a position now where we would struggle. You've got to remember British history. Britain is... Britannia rules the waves, right?
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The way that Britain has become a great nation throughout history is by having a powerful fleet. We would struggle to build warships now because we've closed down all our steelworks because we're green. Right. It's insanity. And on every other issue to do with energy and industry, we have basically deliberately moved our production facilities to other countries. OK, great idea.
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And Donald Trump is one of the most diplomatic and pleasant versions of what you're likely to get if the left keeps going crazy. We will see. what challenges the world throws at him over the next four years, and whether he's capable of responding to them.
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Globalisation, make things cheaper, ship things. Wonderful. OK. What happened during COVID? What happened when suddenly the entire chains of production weren't quite operating the way that they normally do? Oh, China's suddenly hoarding all the masks. Interesting. So what do you think is going to happen when there's a war?
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Oh, they're just going to keep shipping the steel to us to make the battleships and the warplanes that we need to fight them? That's what you think is going to happen? This whole thing, this whole agenda is ideological insanity. And what Ed Miliband is about to do to this country when it comes to this issue needs to talk about way more. And it is about economic prosperity.
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It is about housing because one of the reasons we don't build as much housing as we need to is, again, building housing produces emissions and we don't want to be not green. So that's why people in their 30s and 40s are now living in flat shares for four people. Right. We have got to let go of this obsession with net zero. We have got to build. We have got to drill. We have got to produce energy.
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And we have got to stop thinking that the moral thing to do is to make our poor citizens suffer in order that we feel good about saving the planet, which we're not even remotely saving by doing this.
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For me, my son's two and a half, so it's a little bit early for this pep talk. But my message to him when he's old enough to hear it is going to be this. Your grandfather, your great-grandfather, my grandfather, was taken as a slave laborer from Soviet Ukraine to Nazi Germany. Your great-grandmother was born in the Soviet gulag.
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Your great-grandmother lived through the German occupation and is now living through Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine. You are not living in the worst time ever.
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You're surrounded by pussies if you are a man and if you do your job and if you learn the skills that you need to do and if you pursue the things that you want to do with your life to the best of your ability, if you believe in yourself, if you believe that you're talented, if you actually achieve the things that you set your mind to, there's never been a better time in the history of humanity than now.
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You're surrounded mostly by people who feel sorry for themselves. If you're not one of them, you're going to clean up Young women are looking for a young man like you who's actually going to stand up for himself, who's actually going to go out there and achieve and be confident. Be that, and you're going to clean up when it comes to finding the right partner for yourself.
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You're going to clean up when it comes to making money. You're going to clean up when it comes to your career. You're going to clean up on every front because the bar has never been lower. The bar has never been lower. So just go out and be a man, and life is going to be great.
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Well, politics is about marketing, and Trump is the marketer in chief. He's very good at branding and selling ideas, and partly that's what politics is about. But in terms of the economy, I think Scott is entirely right. It's one of the reasons I admire America so much, the sense of dynamism and economic growth and the desire to create things and build things.
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It's an observation I've had every time I've been there. You know, if you have a successful restaurant in the UK, you go, well, I've got a successful restaurant. In America, if you have a successful restaurant, you open a second one and a third one and you create a chain, right? So their attitude to business more broadly is fantastic and I love it.
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But I think the difference is that I don't think Americans were comparing the American economy under Joe Biden to the European economies. They were comparing the American economy under Joe Biden to the American economy under Donald Trump in his first term and also what they expect him to do for the future.
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When they look at the fact that he's got real business leaders in government now, like Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk talking about government efficiency.
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We have to admit that all Western countries have a massively bloated civil service, what we call civil service in the UK and the administrative state in the US that wastes a huge amount of money that produces very little in terms of output in many cases. And that needs to be slimmed down. And people, I think, are very excited about that. And when I talk to
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business leaders in America, including ones that were never on the Trump train, so to speak. So many of them went over to his side in this election cycle because they just felt that he was going to continue to accelerate American growth. and continue to deliver prosperity for the American people.
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Now, Scott's point about tariffs and all of these other things, you know, I've listened to Donald Trump enough now to know that you should not necessarily be taking him literally. I think many of the things he says are negotiation tactics and signaling. So when he says, I'm going to build this or do that or do this, you have to sort of read between the lines.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
EMERGENCY DEBATE: What Trump’s Return Really Means for America & The Real Reason Men Voted for Trump! Is the UK About to Collapse?!
When he says, you know, this will be the worst thing that you just go, he's saying to people like, you better work with me. Otherwise, this is going to work out badly for you on all of these things. And so it remains to be seen whether he's successful in those tactics of getting what he wants. Look, America is always going to be an unequal society.
The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
EMERGENCY DEBATE: What Trump’s Return Really Means for America & The Real Reason Men Voted for Trump! Is the UK About to Collapse?!
It's designed in a way that is going to make it that way. In America, the focus is how do we grow the pie? In Europe, the focus is how do we divide it up so everyone gets their fair little share, right? So Americans are about expanding the pie and then the people who bake the pie get as much of it as they possibly can.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And this is what happened with all that woke cancellation stuff as well, where it was a very small number of people who made themselves look a lot bigger online. Right. In order to then get companies to back down, to get universities to back down, in order to get other organizations who were just scared of the bad attention to back down. I look at a lot of stuff that happens on social media.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I'm going, there's no fucking way that has got 80,000 likes organically. That's not real. You know?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's one of the things that I'm really hopeful Elon can solve with X. That was one of the things he said when he took over. We need to deal with the bot problem. I think there's more to do on that front for sure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And that comes back to our Lord of the Rings conversation because even well-intentioned people who are doing things that we might like, everyone's got an agenda, especially billionaires.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And your show is how many times a week do you guys do it? We put two episodes out every week. So Wednesdays and Sundays is interviews.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
So yeah, on our Substack, on the Trigonometry Substack, you get to hear the guest answer your questions. So people send in questions ahead of time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. That's what we're always thinking about is how do we offer people who support us extra value? Because unlike the people on the internet who say we're controlled opposition paid by blah, blah, blah, we're actually just paid by our fans.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
A lot of them are good ones. And what we often do as well is we look through them before the interview. And if we can't get them in at the end, we'll actually try and incorporate them into the discussion itself.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, the hope is, man, the reality is the best teacher, right? So the Democrat brand is so destroyed now, so toxic, that they're going to have to work something out. Because if not, they're just going to keep losing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. And because they destroyed language, now it sort of logically makes sense, right? If these people are Nazis, if you actually thought they were Nazis, like if you actually thought Nazis had taken over your country, you'd pick up a gun, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, but you are someone who's got a family. You're well-adjusted.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. This is what I'm saying. A lot of these people, when you look at their mugshot... I don't want to be unkind, but they don't look particularly well.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And it's very tribal. And you see it now as well, you know, now that the right is in political power. a lot of the people who kind of made their bones challenging the excesses of the left, they're afraid to say anything about the right as well, even though there's things to say. I don't know if you followed the signal group thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Is that true? I don't think so. I think the guy who added him has basically said, like, it was our mistake.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I don't think the investigation has been done to say definitively, but I think the White House said we're looking into this. But Tulsi, I think, said it was a mistake. I think Mike Waltz said it was a mistake. Such a crazy mistake.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. They were debating how to do the strikes, whether to do them. There was some debate about that initially. And then initially this journalist, I think he's editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, I think. Which is, he is like the worst guy to get this information to. Absolutely, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
If you had to pick somebody, that is not who you pick, right? He must be so pumped.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You know, we had an investigative journalist on the show, and we haven't released the episode yet, but as part of our after the show questions, he mentioned something, which is he said, I'm going from memory here, so Francis, correct me, but basically that Signal had been installed on government devices under the previous administration.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
So it may be the case that that guy's number had been pre-installed during that time. And because of that, the mistake was then made to add him to the group. So we don't know exactly what happened. But at the same time, what I'm saying is, like, the White House admitted it, and then they started having a go at the journalist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
If that happened to me... Voltaire? Voltaire. There you go. If that happened to me and my Russian grandmother, we'd be just like, God is punishing you. Yeah, and that's why Russians are scary to fight.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Like, that is not his fucking fault that you added him to the group, right? Not at all.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
A journalist is never going to do that. And that's not his job to do that either. No.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They do. What is it? I think it's called a skiff or something like that. It's a special place where you go. No, but that's a room. I mean an app. Oh, you mean an app?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I love that press conference as well because it's like Bret Baier from Fox interviewing Elon and like seven other Aspie guys and they're all just rattling off numbers. It's 10,000 filing cabinets, 400,000 paper documents. But when you look at it, it basically hasn't changed since the 1950s. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Now you learn lesson. Yeah. We have business to discuss. Yeah, man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They're saying they're going to do it in two months. Digitize that in two months.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Low-level autism plus Adderall. Problem solved.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Look at this. This is all the data. Well, bro, you make such a good point about nobody giving them credit. I don't know if you've ever had access to other people's money, like in any way, right? Taxpayer money or anything. But I can tell you, Francis and I, we even spent trigonometry, which is our business, money differently to the way that we spend our own because it's slightly different.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's not entirely yours in a way, you know? So when you're dealing with billions of taxpayer dollars, of course it's getting wasted. Of course it's going to corrupt shit. Of course. Of course. It's inevitable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And the question is, what I don't understand is, look, I think it's very possible that when you move quickly, you're going to cancel some things that you might not want to cancel. Things are not going to go perfectly every time, whatever. But ultimately, the question all Western countries have to answer is we're running debt at more than 100 percent of GDP. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
What are we going to do about that? We have to deal with it somehow. What's this we shit? You're actually... Bro, you're worse than we are.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, you're 126%, we're about 110%. God damn, really? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, that's why you're trying to deal with it. That's what Elon is trying to do. He's trying to cut the deficit in half and then the idea is you grow the economy and you actually get back to surplus.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I didn't realize Nancy Pelosi was well-endowed. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Really? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You know, I've got to say, this is a great start to the podcast, and we aren't even stoned.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I do not know. You're a grown man. Look at the size of those fucking sweater hammers. That is incredible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's a fucking dirty business, man. Oh, it's crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Especially schools. Decades and decades. Especially schools. I mean, we were talking about adolescents earlier. They show a school. I've got a three-year-old. I was looking at it. I think, Jesus, I'm homeschooling all the fucking wake. And Francis was saying the school they show in that series, which is terrifying if you're a parent, is not as bad as some of the schools they used to teach in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Jesus. And what you're watching, essentially, it looks like a badly run prison. So the adults are not in charge. The kids are telling the teachers to fuck off left, right and center. No one is in control. Most of the kids are learning by watching shit on the screen. They're not interacting with the teacher, etc. And you're right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
If you don't fix that system, those kids don't have a good opportunity.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But I don't think it's no chance. I do think that even in that environment, there are people who follow certain paths. I take a point about music and athletics and sports, et cetera, but there are still people who find a way through that. Sure, there's entrepreneurs that come up with a business idea and get out. It does happen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And those habits, if they were taught properly to all of those kids, would give them all a better chance. That's not to say they would all become successful, but it would give them structure, discipline, and understanding of how do you advance in the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You got it from Joe Rogan. You gotta be 13. Let's not be unreasonable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
We banned katana knives now, so we're safe.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I don't know if I've seen the latest.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
100%. Well, there's your positive message for the day, everybody. Fuck me, that is terrifying.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I know you find that shocking, Joe, but in England, in Britain, that is like run of the mill. So in the 70s and 80s, each football team, and to some extent now, they had their own what's called a firm. which are these hooligans whose only thing, they didn't really give a shit about the football, the soccer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. I'm pretty good at debating. I'm not sure I'm going to win that one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You have to be very, very, very careful when you give power to people in order to keep you safe. Yes. Very careful. And we talk about this all the time. We have a couple of younger guys working for us. And we say to them, you guys don't know what the world was like before 9-11. You don't know. You walk into an airport, barely any security. You were a lot more free back then.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And those things are getting taken away for your safety.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You're never going to go back to a pre-9-11 world when it comes to airport security.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Same with liquids. Yeah. Same with liquids. It's all goofy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They would get together with the supporters of the firms of other teams to have fights in the car park outside the stadium. And they would travel all around the country doing that. So it's actually the, it's one thing I love about American sports. Like you can go to the game with your kids and not worry about the stuff that people are going to be screaming and shouting and all that violence.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. You've got to be very careful giving power and information to government. That's why government should be as small as possible, but the right size, right? You need government. Yes. But you have to be so careful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Most people don't know it because they've grown up in a very comfortable environment, particularly in the West. Francis and I obviously his family from Venezuela and from the Soviet Union. Like you don't. That's kind of a red pill right there. You know, going through those experiences. You know, you can you can trust this government if you support it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But there's going to be another government of a party that you don't like. At some point. And you've got to think very carefully about what powers you're giving them. Very careful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You are a lot more chilled out than we are in Europe about that stuff, believe it or not.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, the same thing happened in Russia in the 90s. So when Vladimir Putin came to power under Boris Yeltsin, there was a kind of liberalization. There was an opening up. There was comedy shows about politics that would make fun of politicians, etc., The moment Vladimir Putin became president ended on day one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He closed down the NTV, took it over, gave it to somebody else, shut down all the comedy that made fun of politicians. And, you know, that's how you kind of know, you know. That's how you know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's going to be ethical and reasonable. You're scaring me today, man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, it's going to be like arguing with a person who's using a computer, says the computer doesn't let me. That's what it's going to be like. It's going to be much worse. Much worse.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Why is he doing this? He just brought us in here to just talk to us about the dark, dark future. Or not. Or not. Yeah, sure, Joe. Thanks, mate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, I did that to him. I did that to him during the pandemic. So at the height of the pandemic, when things were looking like pretty fucking dark, everything's getting like shut down. You can't go out. You can't do this. I showed him V for Vendetta. Have you ever seen that movie?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. And he was like, oh, my God. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
So you know the truth, my friend.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. Well, that's the thing that scares me. We interviewed Andrew Schultz and then Charlemagne back to back. And they both made the same point, which is that a lot of people who are not doing well in society right now are really not doing well. They're really hurting. Things are getting more expensive. Things are getting more difficult.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And a lot like I think it was I think it was Andrew who made this point that, you know, this whole free Luigi thing. It's one of the reasons that that got you're looking at on Twitter and basically going people are celebrating the guy who killed someone. Thank you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
The hysteria we have about warming now, we had about cooling. It was ice age. It was ice age. We're all going to freeze to death. We're so fucking arrogant as a species, aren't we? It's not arrogance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
That's basically what professional sports is, especially soccer. It's like you're trying to do your best in front of 50,000 people who are all screaming that you're a cunt.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You can't let them have that kind of control over you. Do you know what we're doing in the UK now? What? Industrial energy prices are four times what they are in America. And we can't even make our own virgin steel.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Because of net zero. And not only that, what we're doing is we're not actually reducing our carbon footprint because we still need the steel, right? And we still need the stuff that you make with energy. So we outsource it to India. We outsource it to China. And then we ship it back. And we're like, no carbon footprint. Oh, my God. That's so crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And so we're destroying our own industry, basically.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
By the way, someone having autism doesn't mean they're wrong. But you don't want a young girl leading a global movement.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Can you imagine being famous, Joe?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Jamie, see if you can find that story. I heard about one or two students that are getting... Yeah, I heard about them as well. But this is a different thing. This is a different one. This is a director.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Do you know what they, I mean, they're blinding them. Oh, my God. That's what the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is doing. They're blinding the men.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And I think that's why Lord of the Rings is such a powerful thing that everyone can relate to because it's ultimately about the relationship with power. And Frodo is trying to make small government, right? That's what he's trying to do. But every one of us... Every single one of us has a Boromir inside of us who wants to come along and go, no, no, no, we'll take this and we'll use it for good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Right. We'll use the power. No, no, give it to me. I'll take care of it. I'll sort everything out. You know, why don't we use this against the enemy? And that person lives inside of every human being. The person who says, give me the power. I'll take care of this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Power is like that, man. Yeah. It is. And it doesn't matter how much power you experience. Even a little bit of power that you didn't have before. Oh, I've got this. I can do this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But it's also bad if you have good intentions as well. I give you this example. I don't know if you are familiar with Tarkovsky. He's like a Russian director and he based – he did the Stalker film. You're familiar with it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. It's not about a guy who stalks women. It's a different thing. It's based on a book by the Strogatzky brothers. Yeah. It was called Roadside Picnic. And it's basically about a zone where the aliens came and they did something there nobody knows. And there's all kinds of crazy artifacts and all that kind of stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But anyway, in that book, there is a scene where there are people who oppose this alien thing. And they say, we mustn't use this. We mustn't touch this. We need to get these aliens out of here. And another guy says to him, why do you fight these aliens? Like, they want good. They're trying to help us. They're trying to improve things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And he says, I don't fight them because I think they're going to do evil or they want to do evil. I fight them because they're going to do good as they understand it. Whoa. And that's why power is dangerous, because everyone can say, I don't want power to do bad things. I want power to do good things. Now give it to me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Stalin. We did a great episode with a guy called Stephen Hicks. He's a historian of philosophy and a philosopher. And he basically explained to us that the Nazis, they saw themselves as heroic. They weren't doing evil in their heads. They were saving the world in their minds.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And they were German, too. So they were very efficient.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And you're sitting across from somebody, so at an energy level, you go, oh, hello. Yeah, there it is. There it is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
There it is. Give me the power. Give me the power.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And we do need those people, but there have to be checks and balances.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
that's why I brought up the signal story because like the obvious thing that happened there somebody made a mistake mistakes happen you make mistakes I make mistakes you admit it you accept it you investigate you find out what happened and you move on but there are a lot of people doing exactly what you said but what about this what about Hillary Clinton well she's not in fucking power now we're not talking about Hillary Clinton we're not talking about Huma and the laptop we're talking about what just happened but here's what I was going back to earlier why don't they have their own encrypted app
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
If the government is doing it, about a trillion, mate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And look, I want all these people to crush. I want them all to be incredibly successful at what they do in your country and in our country. That's interesting. Because it makes our country better, right? Yeah. Yeah, of course you do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
The Britain is the greatest country in the world? I don't know. She just moved there. Well, give her a couple of years. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I think that's one of the big fundamental debates between left and right. Thomas Sowell has a great book about this called Conflict of Visions. It's really fundamentally about what you see as the truth about human nature. The right thinks human nature is imperfect. And that's what it is. And you have to deal with that reality. Some people are going to be criminals.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Some people are going to be drug addicts. And the left, particularly at the extreme ends, thinks in a utopian way. Everything is changeable. Everything is perfectable. Everybody can be improved.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Anybody can become a woman. And that's where you get like, you know, the homelessness problem in America. It partly is about that. It's about the idea, well, we'll shut down these terrible and they were terrible mental institutions. Right. Right. And then we give people freedom. Because anybody can handle freedom, right? Freedom is great in and of itself. It's wonderful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And then you leave mentally ill people and drug addicted people on the streets where they have a horrible life. And that's really the big difference. Whereas the right, obviously, it really believes in this idea that human nature is corrupted, I suppose. And you have to put things in place to manage that. And both those extremes can go in the wrong direction.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And that's why you need a balance between the two.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Biracial bitch. That's what I am.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. And what did you guys do to cause this? Nothing. We're just walking down the street. Wow. Yeah. See, we walk around a lot in America, which I think a lot of people, most people drive here. So we encounter a lot of that. And in every major city that we've been to, there is a hell of a lot of people who are just mentally ill, man. That's what they are. And they need help. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They don't need to be there with a fucking shopping cart on the street with all their belongings out of their brains.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You invite Xi Jinping over, they clean the streets right up, man. Immediately.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He's doing an interesting pivot at the moment, isn't he, Gavin Newsom?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, well, we interviewed someone. Have you seen Adolescence, this thing that's doing, it's supposed to be the most watched thing on Netflix. It's on course.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. So it's about, spoiler alert, so if you don't want to just tune out, but it's basically about a 13-year-old kid who is getting bullied by a girl at school. She calls him an incel or whatever, and he goes and stabs her and kills her. And it's crazy. And it's all about that. And we had a big, we had this guy, an incel expert on to talk about it, a guy who was actually in Austin here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. That's very British, though. British people love pets a lot more than they love people, in my experience. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you hurt an animal in Britain, you're like a fucking pedophile.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's also got a class thing as well. Fox hunting is seen as a very privileged thing to do because not everyone has a horse, you know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Why wouldn't he kill any of those chickens?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. Not practicing. I understand. That's why he came to see us, Josh.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He researches incels. He actually works with David Buss. You've had him on the show, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. We wanted to have him on. Yeah, David Buss, evolutionary psychologist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Just Texas. Do you know, Francis, we forget something. This country is fucking wild. This country is crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He bought a lion on the black market. That does not sound true to me, mate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You never stand around when someone's doing stupid shit, huh?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, we actually just had a report in the UK, which shows that for a long time, people were saying, actually, these people commit crime at a lower level. Who said that? Why would they say that? Oh, people say that all the time when they defend illegal immigration. It's such a fucking bullshit argument.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He's one of the greatest evolutionary psychologists in the world, I think. He's one of the pioneers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, yeah. The gay barber guy? Yeah, yeah. It's scary, man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, from what I read, I think it was in Time magazine, Jamie, if you can pull it up and maybe we can get it accurate. But basically, with a bunch of these Trend our Agua guys, allegedly they got one guy who at least one guy who wasn't a criminal, who was just a gay barber, who I think, according to the story, came here legally. He was here legally. That's what they said.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I don't know what the details are. Maybe Jamie can find it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
From what it said in that story. Now, this is the problem, right? Because the mainstream media has been putting out so much shit that I don't know what to believe anymore, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And so it's difficult. But it's something that we actually brought up in one of our conversations. We interviewed the guy from the Heritage Foundation. We brought this up. Because I think we talked about this with Doge as well. When you do things quickly and you do things aggressively, that's how you get shit done. But that's also when mistakes get made.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And I think a human being being plucked out of nowhere and ending up in a country he's never been in, in a maximum security prison with gang members, seems like a bad thing to happen to me. It's horrific. It's horrific. I don't think that should be controversial.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, if you think about it from a government perspective, and this is where I think it gets quite sinister, is once you've done that, the incentive structure is never going to be to admit that and deal with it. The incentive structure is to say nothing, to cover it up, to pretend it didn't happen. That is horrible. So someone ends up in a black hole. But we've seen it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
We've seen it in every country, including in America.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
There's one in Forbes as well, Jamie.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I sent you the Forbes story, John. If you can forward it to Jamie, maybe he can pull it up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But if you think about it, Joe, like I say, if you're rounding up hundreds of people, mistakes are going to get made because everyone's human. And you then have to have a system, I think, that allows you to amend and make adjustments for that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And this is the trouble with government. The incentive structure is all wrong. Like to admit that is now embarrassing. Right. That's crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They're saying they are, but they're not removing them. Interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
That's not even his country. Right. You deport people back to their country. Right. It's nuts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Is that the Khalil guy? No, the woman.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Have you seen this one? No. I saw it, but I haven't delved into it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
She engaged in activities in support of Hamas, a foreign terrorist organization that relishes the killing of Americans.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I don't know what the law of that is because she's not an American national. Right. But instinctively, I'm just like, that's a lot. That's like crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I thought she had a student visa.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
She'd previously been arrested in April 2024 for taking part. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And I'm in two minds about that because I think on a free speech basis, unless I don't know the law.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
We don't know, right? But I think there's – the legal thing from what I've read is very complicated because if someone is not a US national, they may be subject to different rules or they may not. I think that's a kind of live debate. But from a purely principles perspective, someone being arrested for writing an article seems extreme.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
She engaged in activities in support of Hamas. But what does that mean?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You know, look, the counter argument on this, and I think it's one that I as someone who visits the United States also feel is like I don't think the United States would have given this person a visa if she had told them this is what she plans to do in America. Right. So that's their argument.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
That's the argument that Marco Rubio is making, which is if we'd known you were going to do this, we were never going to give you a visa.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, there have been a lot of protests, pro-Palestine protests in Columbia.