Konstantin Kisin

When you look at Trump, do you think that he's a man who uses these laws of power effectively?

And Robert, social media must have changed that enormously because power now comes with

having a large social media account.

If you've got a large social media account, that means that you can influence, you can change the way people think, you can put your message out there, you can create things that were previously unimaginable, certain political movements, etc.

Do the laws of power change when it meets the social media age?

I think one of the things that social media has done, and look, this has always been true,

But we now see more and more people obsessed with appearing to be a good person, to be moral, to be virtuous in the way that I didn't see as much in the 90s before social media.

I saw it because I was raised Catholic.

So I saw the priests and the people who worked in the church and saw some people on a Sunday wishing to appear holier than thou.

But now it seems that's the game everyone's playing.

And it's fascinating talking about power because I love Greek myths and I love Shakespeare.

And a lot of Shakespeare's plays are about the lust for power and how ultimately it destroys you.

Think about Macbeth, for example.

At what point does the desire for power ultimately become self-sabotaging?

It's a great point because you look at Trump and his greatest weapon, I think, is his sense of humor.

Sense of humor?

His sense of humor is that whenever he's in a position where it looks like he's on the back foot, he's very sharp with a quick comeback.

He makes people laugh.

Laughter resets the room.

People momentarily lose where they are.