Jia Tolentino
Appearances
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And the last two had basically nothing. And 92% of respondents chose the second option. And we are so far from it. And so I'm always like, there is so much populist economic energy that is not being harnessed by any person that I can see. Again, it's presented as this sort of leftist plank, but the energy exists everywhere. Anyway, I think economically...
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
It makes no sense for there to be a class of people making tens of billion dollars a year off of the backs of people who are struggling. And in this case, very, very directly. And in a case where the company is itself causing the struggling. or failing to address it in the way that they could. There is money out there to give everybody health care. We have the wealth in this country.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
We have the technology. We have the ability. There's no reason. There's no reason why people should be dying because they can't pay for insulin. There's no reason that that should happen in this country. And I think most people agree that the situation we're in is unjust.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
I think now would be a really wonderful time if this country's political process functioned enough that we could have sort of like a nationwide referendum on single payer health care. I do think the numbers might be quite different right now than they were two weeks ago.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And I do think that the Democrats in general would be profoundly foolish to not push public universal health care as a primary plank in 2028. I don't think they will. But I think that's, I mean... What does this show us if not that that's a layup, you know?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
Of course, the solution in the end can't be indifference, not indifference to the death of the CEO and not the celebration of it either. But who's going to drop their indifference first? At this point, it's not going to be the people who have a lifetime of evidence that health insurance CEOs do not care about their well-being.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
Can the CEO class drop its indifference to the suffering and death of ordinary people? Is it possible to do so while achieving record quarterly profits for your stakeholders in perpetuity?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
I think this has been an incredibly interesting story in part because I don't know if you have felt this within your own sort of group chats versus professional networks, but there's a big difference in the way people are talking about this in private and the way that they're talking about it in public. And that always strikes me as the right situation for someone to try to step in and merge them.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
I mean, I remember I was covering sexual assault, like, the couple of years pre-Me Too and afterwards, because that felt like, you know, another thing where there was this large social understanding of something being the way that it is, and then with the sort of public discourse lagging behind it, and then an explosive event that tried to merge the two.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And I was interested in that, you know, the mainstream media, of which I am a part, and politicians, everyone was giving these very sort of performatively somber and reverent sort of like, this is an appalling, inexplicable, devastating loss of human life. And then, you know, social media is just full of, you know, the UnitedHealthcare had to close comments on Facebook.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And there were thousands and thousands of like, ha ha, cry laugh emoji. It just struck me as really interesting that the reaction was so sharp. Were there any of the sort of memes or...
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
I would say the most common joke, you know, and it's, you know, even talking to you about this, it's nuts that we're having this conversation. Like, oh, well, the most common joke that was being made about this man that was murdered in Midtown at 6.45 a.m. or whatever. Like, it's wild. We're living in... wild, wild times, but an incredibly common joke and comment that was everywhere.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And I was checking, like I was checking conservative media outlets, comments. I was checking sort of like a down the road CNN. I was checking the New York Post. I was checking the Times. I was checking TikTok. I was really trying to make sure that I was not locked in my own bubble of maybe like disaffected DSA, Brooklyner, you know, people. And everywhere people were using the cold language
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
That the private health insurance industry uses to deny people medication and lifesaving procedures like thoughts and prayers were not prior authorized and denied. And it was a real reminder that of the way most of us have experienced these companies as individuals.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
cold and uninterested in not only our quality of life, but if we haven't experienced it ourselves, probably most of us know someone whose entire existence medically, if not their existence financially, and certainly their existence spiritually, egg freezing, whatever it is, right? IVF, endometriosis, whatever it may be.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
The vast majority of Americans have experienced health insurance as more or less cold-blooded,
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
you don't have to have any sort of ideology at all to, to think like, why, why is this happening to, you know, to get a bill from urgent care and say like, why, why, why, why, why do I pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for private healthcare? Why do I determine my entire employment life around how to get healthcare for myself and my family? And,
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And I'm getting billed $700 for taking a child with 105 degree fever to the ER, you know? Like, why is my bill before insurance discounted at $150,000 for, you know, an entirely normal labor and delivery, right?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
It is notorious, even within the sort of notoriously awful American healthcare system, it is is kind of known as the most rapacious, and it has gotten these profits, these record profits. It has grown to this size, not in spite of the fact that it denies so much care to so many people, but because of that fact.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
So one of the things that I was writing about in this New Yorker piece is that when we think about violence and when we sort of decry violence, it's a very particular kind of violence. It's direct physical violence caused by a person with an intention to harm. But there are a lot of other ways that people's lives are taken prematurely.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
There's a lot of ways that people's lives are taken away from them. And structural violence, you could also call that social injustice, but structural violence, like the denial of health care and denial of safe housing. It's like these are a lot of ways that people's lives are taken away from them.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
I think those of us who are not subject to it on a daily basis still kind of understand the major things through which people's quality of life or life itself is given, like health, housing, school. the environment. All of these things are structured by deeply unjust systems that spare some people and treat almost everyone like very, very, very badly.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And yeah, and I do think people are talking about that more now.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And obviously it's clear which side I fall on, right? It's like, why wouldn't you look upstream? And you're right. It's like, even where people are like, The sort of heartlessness, right? What heartlessness are we appalled by? You know, and even in the case of the, you know, there's a strange parallel. Daniel Penny just got acquitted for strangling Jordan Neely on the subway, right?
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And that ideologically lines up with my priors. Like, I am appalled that this man strangled Jordan. Like someone in the middle of a crisis and, you know, instantly became a folk hero among some conservatives. And I think this was something that like the protests in 2020, like they tried really hard to redirect us.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
Like, yes, this sort of murder that occurred in public is, you know, it's egregious, committed by one man, one police officer, one vigilante ex-Marine, whatever it is. But the real problem, you know, like the real problem is upstream.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
The real thing to be outraged about is the system, you know, which is not just like the New York City mental health care system, but it's part of it, that makes it possible for people to be so unsafe and feel so unsafe and thus then make other people feel unsafe, you know? Yeah.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
I do understand the tendency to fixate at the end point, but it doesn't make sense if you think about it for any longer than that.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
It kind of reminds me of the Sacco and Vanzetti case. Like, there were these two... young men that were part of this violent, overtly violent Italian anarchist sort of collective group in New York in the 20s. And they were wrongfully convicted for an armed robbery and all these things. But they became these sort of folk heroes and they became this sort of famous cause.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
I just think it's interesting whenever there's a clear reason to talk about something like the health care system where we all know, like, this doesn't make sense. This doesn't happen in places other than America. It's like school shootings, right? It's like these things that we know are so... are so profoundly hideous and so profoundly American.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And we feel kind of powerless to do anything about it and like it'll never, ever change. And maybe it will never, ever change. But these moments where everyone suddenly is talking about the morality of private health insurance and the immorality of it, you know, it would be a lot better if someone hadn't had to be murdered to make this happen.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
But, you know, and of course, like this is exactly what presumably, I mean, you know, who knows what the shooter wanted. And you hate to sort of think like, oh, like I'm happy about the thing happening that he wanted to happen aside from the murder. But I do think we ought to be talking about all these things more.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
And this energy belongs in other places other than group texts where we're, you know, like literally I'm two of my friends being like, oh yeah, I'm having endosurgery and my insurance won't cover it. And like, oh, I can't freeze my eggs until 2025 because the pre-approval has to come in three days before my period. And I was one day too early. You know, like it's,
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
When we're like, oh, you know, these assholes, like, oh, my prescription just went up to 500. And, you know, the people I'm talking to are all people like, we'll be fine. It's not going to drive us into bankruptcy. And the way a lot of people cope with this is just to not get the medical care or start a GoFundMe. And I hope that the conversation about this is alive for longer.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
I think there are many sort of populist economic issues that are presented as leftist when they're not. I read this book last year called Limitarianism, and it talks about this study from 2011 where researchers asked people to choose between three different models for wealth distribution in the country. And the first choice was perfect equality, that every quintile had 20% of the wealth.
Money Rehab with Nicole Lapin
The Killing of Brian Thompson and the Human Cost of Healthcare with Jia Tolentino
The second choice was each quintile receiving successively, like the top 20% has 36% of the wealth. Next has 21%. Next has 18%. Next has 15%. Next has 11%. And the last option was the actual wealth distribution of America in 2005, which meant that the first quintile, the top 20%, had 84% of the wealth. The second quintile had 11% of the wealth. The third quintile had four.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Right, or the indoctrination of.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And so we're excited to have him back to talk episode seven. I'm so excited to talk to Dan Savage, who I've been a fan of for a really long time. Dan is, of course, the host of the Savage Lovecast, author of Savage Love. Welcome.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And, you know, one thing that I wanted for Saxon from the second he started, you know, tossing off these mantras about how people just want to be used, people just want to be dominated, whatever. And then the student became the teacher, right? Like Lachlan's like, one day I'm going to take you down or whatever. I wonder if you can just talk about what is going on.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
It occurred to me that Saxon's like perpetual externalization of his mantras and his philosophy is a result of the opposite on the inside. That in fact like he takes one drug. He takes one pill. He loses like the slightest amount of control. And he actually underneath he's pliable and he's malleable and he's the one waiting for someone to use him kind of, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And he – As his father has used him. Right. He has this helplessness, like the way he even looks at Chelsea, like the way he's kind of trailing behind the girls being like, someone help me, someone give me direction, someone tell me what to do. Whereas Lachlan in his outward life, you know, he's following people around looking for a philosophy or looking for a love that will draw him in.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Let's talk about all the fucked up psychosexual dynamics going on in season three of The White Lotus. You talked on the Look Back podcast about how, you know, season two, it was the bedroom farce. It was, you know, this was much more about sex and romance in season one. Where do you place season three on the spectrum?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
He loses one layer of inhibition and he's like, you know what? I'm going to have a threesome with my brother. I'm going to jerk him off. Whatever, man. So, you know, like Lachlan actually has something inside him that Saxon does not. He actually has more of the instinct that Saxon has been trying to like inculcate in him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Right. Cloaked in a Lachlan outside.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Right. Right. Exactly. Well, and what you were saying about, you know, either he wanted to or he is kind of doing this sort of straight male threesome performance.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Totally. It's a gag. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Yeah. Saxon is afraid of it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
So let's talk about the three ladies and Valentin. I was thinking about there's that part in season two where Ethan tells Cameron, like— It's a kind of similar thing to what's going on with Lori and Jacqueline. That, like, Ethan's like, whenever I wanted to hook up with someone when we were younger, Cameron would just, like, swoop in and hook up with him first.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And he talks about mimetic desire, et cetera. And you kind of get a sense with the Jacqueline-Lori-Valentin thing. You know, you feel like Jacqueline's like, Lori, like, you're single, you're single, you should hook up with him. Yeah. It's kind of because she wants to. She's just being a little condescending towards single Lori. But then she fucks him, of course.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And Lori is like, well, you always do this.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Yeah. I mean, what do you think is going on? Like, I mean, I, I, for, you know, for the record, it's like, I agree. Like I, and I also like have a kind of identification with the Jacqueline. I was like, maybe that's exactly what I would have done.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
In the guise of love and caring.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Yeah. And there's like, they all want to be the Jacqueline too, right? It's like, they all kind of want to be the one that the most desirable one of the Russian men desires, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
I think so. I think so. Vlad, he can't recover from that shirt, you know, with the angel wings on the front of the shirt.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
He's like, I take cash out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Right. He's switched twice in like the span of 90 seconds in the scene, right? Yes. Gone from lover boy to con artist to like, to beta male with your like, you know, jujitsu trained girlfriend. Do you think there's, I mean, there is something interesting because I was wondering when I knew that this season would be set in Thailand, like,
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Yeah, talking about fully grown genitals, etc.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
You know, there is a backdrop of transactional and exploitative, like straight up exploitative sex hovers behind and around this whole season.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
We're seeing the paid girlfriends that are making out really, really, really well and not the vast like actually criminal depraved. And I kind of, you know, we don't I don't think we need a documentary version of that on White Lotus like nobody wants that. But it's there. We all know it's there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And I guess sex has been transactional in every season, you know, and of course, season two, you have our, you know, our iconic gal pal duo, you know, fucking all over the hotel, et cetera, getting paid for it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Well, and it's like, I mean, who is here looking for love? It's kind of Belinda, kind of, or who has kind of found a real-ish version of it. It's kind of Belinda. Guy Talk's looking for love. Mook is looking for a sufficiently aggressive man that can then arouse her sort of romantic loyalty or something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
But is there, I don't know, do you feel that sex is working a little any differently in this season with the, you know, the sort of loser was back home, the sort of that Alexi scene where he's like, I take cash out?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
human connection yeah that's kind of reaching through or around yeah like one thing that i think is so clear is that chelsea and rick's relationship seems like the most transactional of any of the guests when they step off the boat right you're like this here's this hot girl here's this older guy who's really cranky like she's kept around for vibes and cheer and like her hot Beautiful self.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And they have the most sincere and and on her end, the most thorough and lasting and like unbelievably committed in 11 dimensions, you know, whereas as as society would have it, the relationship between Tim and Victoria Ratliff is incredible. Putatively, you know, it's like they're loving, like long-term, whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And they have nothing but the money that he has given her and the sense of self-satisfaction, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Well, thank you so much for talking to me. I truly have been a longtime reader, learned everything I needed to know about sex in college from reading your column.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Piccillo, and Aaliyah Papes. Sound design and mix by Ewen Lai-Tremuwen. At Campside Media, our executive producer is Josh Dean.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
For the HBO podcast team, our executive producer is Michael Gluckstadt, senior producer Allison Cohen-Sarokach, and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Hi, everyone. I'm Gia Tolentino. And welcome to a midweek bonus episode of the White Lotus official companion podcast to season three. So White Lotus is always about desire and transgression and identity and what's buried and what comes to the surface.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Right. And it's as if she knows that she can't tame the bodyguards into being sort of emotionally available and forthright. But perhaps she could get Guy talked to. I mean, she has a point in that, like, he does need to get better at his job. He's actually quite a bad security guard.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why are you gift wrapping it for suicidal patrons?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Yes. Sweating bullets the entire time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Yeah, yes. What do you make of Rick and Chelsea's... I love them, personally.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Yeah. Well, before we get to the Ratliff drama, I wanted to ask you about Frank and, you know, the monologue. The shocking, perfectly delivered... That no one saw coming.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And probably not Frank himself either.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And so much of it bends itself around money, but because this is the show that it is, it all is focused around human relationships and specifically a lot of it around love and sex. That's where you see the way people hide from themselves and reveal themselves and what they say they want and what they really want and how they lie and whether they lie, etc., etc.,
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Being the one that wants to fuck them. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it speaks to to also like sex being a realm in which you can be something completely other. Right. Like you put aside all the specific dimensions of him, you know, first exploiting and then thinking that he is an Asian girl or whatever, et cetera, et cetera. It's you know, there is something within that where it points to.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
it is a zone where none of the rules have to apply per se.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Don't I know it, Dan Savage. You want to be the opposite of what you are.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And so we thought, why not talk to Dan Savage, the author of Savage Love and the host of the Savage Love cast. He is someone whose work I have been consuming since, I don't know, 20 years ago when I was 16 and kind of learning about what sex could be other than what had been taught to me in high school. I feel like I spent so much of college reading Savage Love columns.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Wow, Frank. I mean, all of this from two minutes of a monologue.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
I wanted to ask you about the mommy-daddy, save mommy from daddy origins of Greg's.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
cock fantasy when Chloe explains you know very rationally like oh you know actually it's just because he wants to you know he wants to take his mother back from his father and that's why we need to fuck in front of him and then he'll surprise us the two choices are either that he has actually like unearthed from his true childhood like a gem of originary sort of sexual experience and given it to Chloe
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
a girl that—he doesn't have a—I think they have kind of a wonderfully functional relationship, but not a tremendously deep one. Or he's just making this up because he wants to see his hot girlfriend fuck this hot guy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
I don't think they use the word cuck, but yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
You can retrofit any fantasy onto, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And I, you know, one could argue that to whatever extent we have developed a kind of healthy, open sexual culture in adulthood, we owe a lot to dance work over the last few decades. So I was really excited to talk to him. You might have already heard him on the Look Back portion of this podcast, Breaking Down Ethan and Daphne's Relationship.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Right. So what else is he going to do? He's going to tip her over into that dark water.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
Well, also, you know, like all sort of profoundly devastating context around the society. In a lot of ways, it's so much easier to love someone when there is a time limit. It's easier to embrace them and accept them. So you basically—so you think this is too neat. For you, it's giving like he has concocted this to get Khloe to fuck a hot guy in front of him. Or—
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
And he's not gonna, so he might as well own it in the form of desire.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
He's saying, I'm allowing you. I'm picking the target. I want to watch you do it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Inside Episode 7: A Deeper Dive with Dan Savage
I know, there's all sorts of poly rhythms going on there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's no consolation that they die together. It really does not mean anything in actuality. They should have just continued to... move on from the place that they were in at the dinner when he was like, okay, we're going to be together forever. Like, Chelsea was right about what would happen to them, but she ends her life in utter horror at what her beloved is doing to himself and thus to her.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Like, she ends the show knowing that the snake is out of the cage and coming for her calf and she's going to actually die this time or whatever. And we hate that for them.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, yeah, except dead.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Except, like, fully dead.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. Chelsea is too pure.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And she couldn't last in this world.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And he'll be like, I know, I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Do you think, what do you think about Guy Talk?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
The condition of being human is to live in a state of identity and desire. And these are the things that cause you to self-imprison. These are the things that cause your suffering. The things that we desire tend to be money and sex.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I think there's also, if I were to try to posit what this season thought some teleological idea to aspire towards is, it's like the people that also make it out are the people that understand themselves to be works in progress. Like constantly failing works in progress. But it's like, you know, Frank does, certainly. Chelsea does, certainly. Laurie does, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
So it's like, it's the same. It's always going to be the same mess of themes to me. I mean, there's an aesthetic tilt towards one thing over the other. Like, season two is so, like, hot Sicilian. It's a very bodily season, et cetera. And this... There's lots of eternal return. There's a lot of bouncing droplets.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And like Lachlan now, like he says it explicitly, like maybe it's just a test to see if you can become a better person day by day, year by year, whatever it is, White Lotus trip to White Lotus trip. And I think there is – I don't know. Like I do think that that stands up and the belief system that very clearly fails you in every possible way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Narratively, spiritually, emotionally, in terms of your various happy endings is like, you know, you know, and you've got it and you're good. Every single person that thinks that will fail.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Right. It's your instincts. It's your instincts about like, I don't know. Yeah. Like fixity and change or trying.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
There's, you know, there's a lot of, you don't know what time it is of the day because it's this golden Thailand hazy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's always magic hour. It's 10 a.m., it's magic hour. 3 p.m., magic hour. Middle of the night, somehow still magic hour. But you know what I mean? Like, I think your theory is correct. And I think it's also, yeah, I think it's every single story.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And I think that there's no real difference between the prison of identity and the prison of desire for money, the prison of desire for sex that you can't have or even sex that you can. Like, it feels like the same exact question to me.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I think that one of the things that this season is asking overtly, and that the other seasons were not, is like, do you have a soul? Do you have, like, simply, do you have a soul? Which of these characters has a soul? What would remain of you if your life changed drastically? Like, what is there actually to you underneath whatever? And that, to me, it's like...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's like Lachlan is the one kind of with the claim on it because he's not – he's the one that is not clinging to a belief structure yet. And he's the one that kind of has an intact soul almost as a result, you know? Like there's something where – like I was going to ask you – Which of these characters' belief systems sort of stands the test of this week at the White Lotus?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
You know, like I think kind of Chelsea's kind of does. Chelsea is a wackadoo. Like, hey, read this book about how we're all sorted into groups one through 12. And if we're in, you know. And we're both in group seven, and so that means we're something to each other. But she's right. Chelsea has a belief in something beyond the visible and given, and it's an extremely open-ended one.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's one that does not seek to establish or control anything. It's just her entire belief system is that there's something beyond this, and there's something we can do with that. And that I think she's kind of probably objectively correct in that she's— kind of vindicated.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And then the other ones that I think like their belief systems, like they're ones that obviously don't, like most of the Ratliffs, their whole belief system is going down the tubes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, right. And again, it's a belief system that does not – it doesn't seek to establish a rigidity of like this is how you should be, this is how you shouldn't. Like Laughlin is like – it's the motion of it. So it's Laughlin and it's – Chelsea, and I think it's Lori, too. You know, like, I think what she says at dinner is really nice.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's like, then I realize that perhaps the meaning is just simply that I have existed, and so have you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
There's something in here about whose sense of self is capacious enough to accommodate multiplicity. Like, the people whose sense of self and sense of identity fails are the ones who understand their identity to be one of It's the most rigid ones, right? It's like Victoria.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's like probably Jacqueline and Kate, you know, that their sense of self and identity is just very firmly in a bounded, checkmarked, good, admirable, visible, you know, and that is me and everything else is folded into that narrative. And the people whose senses of self don't trap them, but...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
ground them and free them or whatever are the people it seems to me whose senses of self are firm insofar as they are open-ended perhaps all the way to frank who seems to be able to accommodate a 45-hour crack binge or whatever too and he's just like yeah i'm in my underwear stabbing this mannequin and tomorrow i'll be doing my ablutions at the temple or whatever
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And welcome to the last hurrah, the bonus episode for our season three companion podcast. We'll be talking to Amy Lou Wood later on. But first, like, we're just going to be talking about the big things of this season. What the fuck was this all about?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
You kind of get the impression with Frank, you know, who's like, okay, here's my meth and my knife. And shift five of hookers from nightclub downstairs or whatever. And the next day I'll be back at the temple. I don't know if this is my personal projection onto this character. You're like, I get it. Do you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I don't think that Frank experiences anything as inherently better than the other. Like, I think he probably understands sobriety as something that is a necessary structure for his life to be clear about himself and his flaws and the danger zones. But I don't think he's beating himself up at the temple the next day as he's bowing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I think he's just like, wow, the great wheel of life contains multitudes. And that was me and this is me and I'm a terrible person and I am a transcended person. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
He is under zero illusions about who he is. You know? Like, he is not bullshitting himself. He's scrubbed out all of his bullshit. And I don't know, there's something to be said for that. Like, there's obviously a hard limit to where self-knowledge will get you morally, but...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
within the framework of the people we've been presented with this season, there is like a profound freedom he has in this absolute self-knowledge of his failures and his freedoms, kind of.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
There's something interesting about how Piper and Saxon almost switch places. There's a symmetry in the way that they begin the season, and Saxon is like, I'm American Psycho. I'm a man of the world. I'm about money. I'm about conquest. I'm about sex. Piper is like, I'm wearing a white nightgown. I have pure thoughts. I transcend my position.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I merely wish to be a beautiful flower floating on the wind. directing my thoughts towards peace or whatever. And then by the end, Piper is like, hmm, like, I'm going to text my girlfriends and set up cocktail night or whatever, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, she floats back down to earth. She's like, okay, what if actually I just stay rich and volunteer biweekly? And like, perhaps that's like the version of life that I... And Saxon is like, what if... everything I've ever believed is wrong and I need to find love and a soul. And that's fascinating, they slinch.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
I think, I mean, really specifically within the dynamic of female friendship that these ladies have been, you know, playing out this entire season, um, It's extremely important that the way she does that is by instantly unlatching them from mandatory happiness, which is the main thing that has caused all of the characters to deceive themselves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
The sort of layered, mirrored, reflecting self-consciousness and self-righteousness kind of builds into this nuclear relationship. arms race of just perpetual escalation of like, no, I'm happy and I've done it right and this is actually what I've always hated about you or whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
There are lots of different versions of the life you have, but you've chosen very specifically some relationship to the things that Lori says she's placed her religion in, right? In work, in love, in motherhood, in their beauty.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
They have chosen a particular relationship and they have to defend that to themselves as the correct one and objectively the correct one or something and that it has made them happy. There's this way in which that relationship like completely false structure of thinking becomes almost ingrained as a natural slash mandatory one for women, particularly when you approach or hit that age.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
And the incantation that she utters is like, but what if I didn't have to pretend that I did it right or that I was happy? And then suddenly they're all actually happy. And she says, and I'm just happy to be sitting at this table.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
That I found really, really well written, that that's the magic spell. Her just being like, yeah, I'm actually unhappy, but I'm really glad to be here. Yeah. And I guess the thing that it unlocks in them isn't, it's not happiness as they configure it. It's not happiness as they configured at the beginning, which is something that's visible, that you can photograph, that you can prove.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Like, I think it's the kind of happiness that comes from being at peace and honest. But to me, I'm like, that actually is what I think of as what being happy means. And I do think they are there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
It's interesting because people – I think people will have said – like, everyone liked to be like, first season is about money. Second season is about sex. Third season, it's about spirituality. It's about life and death. But all of these things are the same idea to me. Like, does that make sense to you?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Season 3: A Final Goodbye with Aimee Lou Wood
Rick and Chelsea, it's not. We were really sad watching it. That's not what I want for them. It's not what we want for them. I'm rewriting it in my mind.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Like he sees a sort of forking and then he gets cross-legged on the bed and he and he's trying to receive what it is to meditate. But then he's like, what are we going to fuck? And Chelsea's like, oh, no, are we going to fuck? And then she panics and she's like, I kind of want to. And she throws all these books at him and hides in the corner.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then he takes the message and leaves like he doesn't press it. But they almost fuck.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. Yeah. You know, ostensibly the real reason that the party was thrown is that Greg can get Belinda in a room and she's, you know, clutching her little purse. She's doing, she's got her hands on her little purse in her lap. And he offers her like a quite insulting $100,000 to not report him for murder to all of the police.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
No, I think that's what you do. It's like Delta offering those people $30,000 for the flight landing upside down.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
It's a briefcase thing for me. Like it's like he folds it up in the briefcase and then he's like getting on and someone snatches it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He's sending a signal, and it's Belinda's job to take that and be like, I need 10 times that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Actually, no. Yeah, way more than 10x on that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Honestly, I mean, I'd ask for more, but I'd frankly take the money. And then I'd still report him. And then what is he going to do? Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Like, have you ever set up an anonymous Gmail, Belinda? Like, pretty easy. Come on.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He's like, Alexi steps in and he's like, we take Cash App, we take Venmo.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
A mere $10,000 for the repatriation of my mom or whatever. And then Mook and Gaitak, they go on their date. It goes badly because Mook is like, I want you to be more violent because that's how you advance in this world. And they go to the Muay Thai fight and she's like, see, it's natural. This staged fight that people are paying for, this is actually so natural.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Exactly. Okay, before we get into the notarized revenge plot near murder we witnessed, we should say we're talking about episode seven. The title is Killer Instincts and it was written and directed by Mike White. So this is a dark episode. It's dark.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then but at the fight, like, I mean, it kind of seeds like we are supposed to think that something is going to happen when he recognizes, you know, in kind of a somewhat heavy handed flashback that, oh, these Russian guys with that girl from the hotel, they are the ones that punched me and robbed me. Right. And so you're supposed to think perhaps next episode he'll make a grand gesture.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He's got the gun back, you know, which Jason Isaacs realizes to his dismay. Now he's fantasizing about killing his son because his son has also said, I have nothing but what you gave me. And he's like, oh, no. I've got to put these people out of their misery. But, you know, in this incredible prop magician's cabinet, this filing cabinet, 45 compartments, none of which contain a gun.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I feel like this episode, I mean, the real here's a test and how are you going to pass it happens with both Rick and Frank. Like, unexpectedly with Frank, I think we're, you know, we're 45 seconds into this encounter at Sreetala's house. And he's like, I'll take a whiskey.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
God, don't do it for this.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
You should have thought about what, you know, let's get an IMDB for you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But I think that Rick doesn't know what he's doing, right? Like, I think that up until... I mean, it's very confusing, this confrontation. It's a strange one. Rick doesn't know what's going to happen here. And he has brought that spirit to Frank as the director, who has no idea what his name... They don't remember what each other's names are. They haven't looked at Sreeta Lala's IMDb, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
They're watching the VHS tape. He's like, it's giving Pippin.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And Jim, the legendary Scott Glenn –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
We were just going, it's what, Apocalypse Now, you were saying?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Oh my God, his outfit in Urban Cowboy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, everyone, almost everyone has kind of like a test, like a gauntlet that they are set. And it's like, what choice will you make? And not all of them have chosen.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He's got a cane. But he knows something is wrong almost immediately. Like he knows once Rick calls Frank, Frank. He knows. Like, there's a look in his eye and he's like, something is up here. But he engages Rick with it. He's like, OK, let's take it to the den. Like, he knows something's up.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But he's used to having enough power in his whole life that he's like, fine, let's see what this is fucking about.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
test that he passed but it's I mean I think I think to me what it is it's like you confronted reality as it is right you confronted the fact that this person was a different person then someone that was capable of murdering in cold blood now he's probably still capable Scott Glenn is still capable of murdering in cold blood but he's old he's frail now and you have power over him like he had ultimate power over here for how for 50 years right
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Now you functionally and completely physically existentially like this man is at the end of his life. You still have Chelsea waiting for you back home, not fucking Patrick Schwarzenegger. And and he's sort of like, OK, I mean, the test, so to speak, is different because of the actual reality that confronts him in the moment. It's not can I kill this man? Do I have the strength to kill this man?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But it's like, do I have the existential wherewithal to realize I don't need to? Right. And in that way, he does.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then they fucking go off. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then I'm so I'm legitimately upset for Frank. Like sobriety is a really important thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Is he doing meth or whatever? Yeah, crack. Whatever he's doing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, he's like, actually, I'm not going to take you up three topless girls offering me the Coke straw or whatever. Like, he's like, I'm actually okay. And I'm like, okay, Rick and Chelsea, are we going to make it?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I also think they could have done whatever this night and made it back. You know, like I really believe in them.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And I kind of wanted Chelsea to have a selfish – I mean, I kind of wanted her to have a little bit of a selfish moment, you know. But I like that they didn't. I like that, you know, they still kind of have a bit of a pure thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Like it's like hope seems kind of to be winning here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
That's exactly what I'm thinking. And what in her position I probably would have done. I feel like this whole season there's been this thing going on with age where, you know, I think maybe rightfully all the characters are a little disgusted by the old white dudes that are in Thailand, you know, with like hot girlfriends.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And, you know, there were the women, the women are self-conscious of their age and they're, you know, through the whole like competitive thing. Something that hits harder in the way they fight at the beginning of the episode is they are set in their lives now. They're not old, but they are too old to choose a radically different value set and have it reset their life. They're entrenched.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
children they have careers they've made their choices they have divorces they have marriages like they can't like there's this kind of fear of finality in them they're fearing that the narratives that have been in play for the last 30 years are going to be the narratives for the rest of their lives they're seeing that it probably is true and realizing that about each other but refusing to recognize it about themselves
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And I think there's also something with every character where it's sort of like... Are you going to go into the rest of your life kind of honest or are you not? You know, like there is this kind of hope embedded within each of them that they can just that they can work it out. They can work out something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And like they all kind of want to leave here and be like, I'm going to straightforwardly live the rest of my life kind of honestly. in clarity and peace, and they're all fighting up against whatever barrier it is to actually doing that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Can you go into the rest of your life not... hiding something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, and they're all wondering that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And we'll see. And now we'll be talking to Gary slash Greg, John Grice.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. Everyone's in this really weird flux. It really like I kept watching like throughout the episode, I was like, everyone is trying to see if they're going to pass some sort of test, it feels like. It really all comes to the surface with the ladies the most.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I mean, I just really have to immediately ask. We need to just clear the air slash cloud the air and know, did Greg slash Gary kill Tanya? Did he orchestrate the killing of Tanya? Are we going to be working from that premise or not as we speak?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
They're at dinner just like furiously looking at the menu. They're kind of being like, I'm fucking sick of Thai food. Like you can feel they're like, when's this bottle of rosé going to get here so we can stop just avoiding eye contact with each other.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And has he done this throughout his life and just like made fortune, spent them, made them, spent them?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But once Mike said diabolical, you thought, oh, that was just Greg being a spectacular actor.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
It's a victory to our lives.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And they're all correct. Like, they're all accurate. Like, the reads are accurate. They say to Lori, like, the thing that makes you disappointed changes, but you're always disappointed. And it's like, that's right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then she says, Kate, you're a fake bitch.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And it's like, yeah, it's all correct.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
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The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And Kate's like, I suppressed that. Excuse me.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
That's not, we suppressed that together. I did like the line of dialogue where Jacqueline tells Laurie, you always choose the short stick. And then you think you got the short stick.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. And that was kind of brutal.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But do you think Jacqueline meant it was like you chose the thing that was going to be hard? Like, you know, like you chose the thing that was not going to be easy. You're having to fight your way up at this firm. You know, presumably this relationship with this man was also not easy. And then you're upset about it not being easy. Right, exactly. That's good. That's devastating.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
You can't feel self-righteous about choosing the path that's hard work and then feel like a victim for having had to work for your shit.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He also, you know, he didn't like his life and he fucking changed it. He was like, I'm going to get on stage.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And no one cares because they're all busy being like, I've hated you for 30 years.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He's pursuing it and it doesn't matter to anyone else.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I know, and his angry, hot girlfriend is there trying to slap fight everyone.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, you really want to be at loose ends? Like, it's time to be at –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Oh, but so the thing that happens with Alexi, I mean, that we all know was coming, but that Lori didn't know was coming was that the jewelry that was heisted.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Alexi, you got 10 grand right there. Sell the damn snake choker.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Hello, and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But like, I was like, Lori should have taken it back. That's my quibble there. It's like, Lori, put it in your bag. Put it in your dang bag. I liked when her drawstring pants were falling off her ass.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
It was like perfect pants for that as well. Like there's no, you really, it's a really PJ style Thailand band, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Chloe is dressed like a majorette. Like a Taylor Swift heiress to our costume. I love the moment where Parker Posey's got her sort of elaborate silk scarf on and the statement necklace. And she's like, the boat people. We're going to go talk to the boat people.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah, she's fun at this party. She's like, well, I guess it's boat people or, you know, everything's going to shit. My daughter is a Buddhist.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And she's really, you know, at the party, she's like, she thinks that girl is being sex trafficked and she's like, come to North Carolina.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And later in this episode, we'll be talking to John Grice. My question for you, Josh, is in Sam Rockwell's imaginary film trilogy, which we hear about. It's the, hold on, it's the, help me.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
She's like, are you scared of him?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Yeah. But I loved also the look in Jason Isaac's eyes. You know, he's having the conversation. He's like, everything's good. Everything's fine. And it's like... His eyes are in the afterlife, you know? Like, his eyes are fully in eternal return. Like, he's thinking he's no longer there. And he's at peace with it. And I found that it's a good scene.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Well, but it's also because he wants to have sex with her and she has said outright, I won't fuck you because you have no soul. Yeah. And but I kind of I mean, I like their dynamic in this episode. I like how it feels. I like how he is still reeling from the revelation of his incestuous threesome. And I mean, like they're sitting. It's like a classic. The party's going on. You're kind of.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And he and he's giving off this thing in this encounter where he's like he's almost ready for something to be revealed to him. Right. He like sees in her the possibility of some lesson that he's become vaguely aware because of the Jason Isaac storyline that he he needs some sort of lesson. He needs something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
something to his life other than like i'm gonna do whatever will allow me to use people for their own and my pleasure like he's on the cusp of realizing that something needs to change he understands that chelsea perhaps holds some sort of insider tool whether it is directly sexual through an encounter with her body or if it's just actually whatever she thinks in her mind they are sitting on these pool chairs and they're and he's about to receive this wisdom
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then she explains it's a battle between hope and pain. And he's just like, you're never going to fuck me. And the window kind of closes. It opens again later in the episode. But it's like he's in this episode, he's almost realizing he needs something. And then he can't tolerate what that would actually mean. He's following her around being like, am I going to learn something? Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He says it, the executor. But I was confused because I thought he was going to say executioner.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
That there's something beyond the immediate surface.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
So Saxon gets one offer for one kind of identity for the night, which is Chloe's like, well, it turns out I'm going to explain for two minutes Gary's elaborate parental cuck fantasy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
But if it's like a will, aren't you like the executor?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
He wants to be cucked by his dad from his mom. The one thing I don't buy here is that Saxon wouldn't have immediately understood what Chloe was asking him to do. He'd be like, I've seen 1,000 videos in this category before.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
I did think when he was like, yeah, I've had threesomes with two girls. And I was like, maybe you haven't actually. Like he's kind of giving maybe he hasn't and just says he has. And there's kind of a symmetry to the fact that Saxon and Laughlin both fucked Chloe with each other the episode before. And now they are lost and confused.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
aggressively so but Lachlan is no longer in the sort of like morning after reflexive triumphalism that he was last time we saw him and they are both looking to girls you know Chelsea and Piper respectively to be like okay teach me your belief system I'll do it I can't fuck my brother anymore right the radio is tuned we're ready to receive the transmission
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
There's kind of a flowers in the attic moment with Lachlan and Piper, you know, like they're on the bed and they're having this sort of and he's like, I want to be here with you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
She's in her little white nightgown.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And it's like, I'm going back to my room.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
She wanted to go. She wanted to leave her family. She wanted to be decontextualized and discover who she is outside of Laughlin. And now she's like, get your own damn identity, Laughlin. You know, go to go make your college choice. Don't come here with me.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
And then the notary has to come and sign it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 7: “Killer Instincts” with Jon Gries
Well, he he does. It's like his posture when he's like he's following behind her. He's kind of his shoulders are a little down. He says something that he probably has never said before, which is like, I could be someone else. Like I could be there could be more to me than this.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
They're in the reaping phase. The show is in its reaping phase.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And in the conversation with the monk, there's like a strong insinuation that she has had a moral problem with her family's way of life for a long and perhaps unarticulated time. And she's maybe coming here to make sense of it. But yeah, so she's 21. But as if she's 12 or something, she asks the monk, like, can you just tell my parents that it's okay that I stay here?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
So Timothy goes in and asks, what do you think happens after you die?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, I feel especially conscious of the fact that, like, you know— This monk is not saying anything about and here they will find it. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Like the point is just about what people believe that they're going to get here. It also kind of goes back to the way that Piper ostensibly what she wants is meaning, but she put it as happiness. And, you know, there's the way in which this entire framework has been imported as a 90 minute wellness seminars at AI companies in Silicon Valley. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
It's like you're either—unless you're off of it, you're still on it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
But he was the one that rocked it. He was the one that was telling his little brother that he needed to get laid, get everything.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And we have the sort of classic, this visual of a drop of water kicking up in the sea spray and then melding back into the great consciousness. Right. But it's really kind of beautiful the way that it's played here because what does this mean to Timothy at this exact point in time? Like this is making him both want to die more.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right. Like it's making him want to die more. It's giving him some sort of access point, some sort of ladder has dropped out of the nothingness to like find some sense of forgiveness or something. Right. Like some sort of absolution. Like this this idea that you just go back, you just go back into the great universal and that's it. And all of life is just you come up and you go back down. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And there's a profound relief to him in thinking of that, that what's happening to him right now is not like the Empire State Building crumbling in front of everyone's eyes, right? Like it's actually just one more drop of water going back into the ocean. But then it makes him want to die a little more. You know, it makes him want to live more and it also makes him want to die more.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And I find that – I mean I guess that's –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, but the way he puts it to his family, you know, like Parker Posey's like, how was it or whatever? And he's like, he's legit. You know, like whatever he says.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Like, as if, like, you know, he's just job interviewed an intern or something, you know? Another thing that happens with the Ratliffs towards the end is that, you know, Victoria's worried Piper is not going to have the creature comforts that she's used to.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And in fact, she should never get used to anything but those creature comforts. She needs to be afraid of poverty like me and everyone else I know. Because otherwise, how will she make good decisions? And Timothy's like, well, we want her to be resilient. You know, what if, you know, we want our children to be able to handle whatever comes their way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And Victoria is basically like, if I'm not rich, I'd rather be dead. Like that is functionally what she says. She says, I don't know if I'd want to live, which is the fantasy that bookends the episode on the other side is a new version. Compassion, murder, suicide.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
We didn't talk about Rick at all.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, and one of the main things I think we can expect to see in the next episode, you know, Walton Goggins has a really good prolonged shot at the end of the episode when he and Frank, who's pretending to be director, director Frank, they have made it to Srutala's house. The husband has walked down the stairs. We don't have a clear look at him, but we look at Rick, look at him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And he has assured Frank that he's not going to murder him. He just needs to have the gun for a reason that doesn't have anything to do with murdering him. He just needs to sit with him for 10 minutes and make him understand. He just has to almost murder him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
He's trying to old boy this guy. He doesn't have enough time to old boy this guy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
So Rick is going to do a 10-minute old boy next episode, and I can't wait to see what it looks like.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I've kind of had some uptake of Rick's fantasy as I imagine it. Like, I... I think he thinks he will have this confrontation and he will look this guy in the face and say, I never got to meet my father because of you. And there will be some recognition of the humanity within Rick that even Rick himself has been suppressing for 50 years or whatever it is. and that he will say sorry.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
It's the morning after episode. Yeah. It's the morning after episode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
He thinks that he will get what he's looking for, which is a recognition from this man. I think he just wants a recognition. He wants a moment of mutual recognition of, you did this to me. I did this to you. You should be sorry. I am so sorry. And then he can leave it behind as his beautiful therapist has been telling him to do.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I feel like Frank's going to do something, too. Frank might get crazy somehow. Frank's like, I'm out of this life. But you're like, are you? Are you, Frank?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
The other thing that might happen is Rick could die.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Chelsea's been like, it comes in threes. I have a really bad feeling. I have bad feelings. Like Rick could also die. Right. And then thus be released from the prison of the identity that this man gave him, which was fatherless orphan.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
He's kind of into it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
For the record, I did see him at the hotel gym that morning.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I feel like maybe he just has to say that. He can't say, this is why I took this role.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Great interview.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Okay, well, and now I get to talk to Leslie Bibb.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah. Thank you, Leslie. I wanted to start by asking you first, what attracted you to Kate as a character and to the opportunity to explore this complex friendship dynamic on screen?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
The monk says to Timothy, you know, he's like, people run towards pleasure and they get there and they just find more pain.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
They could have had just a wonderful sort of skinny dipping time in the pool and watching the fireworks and making out on the full moon party. But it's like, you know, the message that is coming through the screen is that we as humans are not content with that. We have to take it one step farther. We have to cheat on our partners. We have to have sex with our brothers. We have to...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Thank you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Thank you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
You know what I mean? Like our desire for more.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
We have to become an Asian woman. You know what I mean? It's like there could be places where pleasure could be contentment. And yet the message of specifically Buddhism, right, it's like if you are not mindful of what pleasure is, it will hurt you. Your relationship to it will hurt you. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Completely. It's so good. Leslie, thank you so much. I'm so glad to get to talk to you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Well, that was lovely. Thank you to Leslie Bibb and Patrick Schwarzenegger for coming on the show. And thank you to you all for listening.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Unfortunately, one feels that Belinda is marked for death because of how good this episode has been for her.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, like she had this hot, sweet night with this guy that's so nice and like so respectful, but like... you know, is, like, snuggled up close to her in the morning, and he starts this conversation about, you know, maybe we could start our own spa.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right. And she, when she encounters Greg, when Greg forcibly encounters her, you know, she's shaking. You know, she's shaking because Greg is now, he's made a full transformation into murderer, murderer vibes. It's hard to get a clear read on what he's doing. You know, like my Occam's racer for his behavior towards Chloe is that he's in a profound case of sort of anhedonia.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
You know, where he's incapable of experiencing any pleasure whatsoever and cannot like he's not really interested in having sex with his incredibly hot 28 year old girlfriend or whatever. He just he can only like process increasingly sort of violent versions of it. You know, like he's interested now in harm in some way. Like he's just he's radiating like interested in harm.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Like a party or something?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
It's very unhappy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
He slept over with Jacqueline. I thought this was played really well and funnily. So Kate tells Laurie, you know what happened last night? Like, you know, I think I had a sleepover, you know, and breaks the snooze. Obviously, Kate at some level knows that this will be devastating to Laurie, right? She has been talking shit with Jacqueline about how...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
You know, how hard the divorce has been for Laurie and how unbelievably single she is. And they treat her as if she is someone that is, you know, the third wheel, the friend that's not chosen first. And she knows how much it would mean. And kind of the charity case. The charity case. And they've both been sort of talking up this Laurie possibility, although Jacqueline more so than Kate.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Like, she knows when she says, actually, Jacqueline... Fucked Valentin. Like, she knows it's not going to be received neutrally. But when Laurie also tries ostensibly to play it cool, Kate's like, I thought you would think this was funny. Like, you're getting mad. Why are you getting mad?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Well, I think that Kate is having it both ways where she truly believes that she's just engaging in little girl talk. But deep down underneath, she knows that she has an upper hand because she has this information that one person desperately wants but doesn't know and the other person desperately doesn't want her to share.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
But she doesn't want to believe herself to be a person that would do this kind of thing. Like she's just like, I thought we were having fun. And I also thought that the way that Carrie Coon plays –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
her own response which is like oh i just think it's interesting i just think it's really interesting jacklyn you know like she um like she now has the opportunity which is i think the character is experiencing as unpleasant because it is coming out of a place of being like profoundly slighted and put back on the bottom but the way she handles that information gives her the ability to kind of be on the top here like she gets to speak to jacklyn as if she is superior to her
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And I was thinking, you know, when they were having this discussion at breakfast, it was like, okay, now we're going to see which is worse in their eyes, being a Trump voter or a cheater. Right, right. Or even not really just a cheater. It's like a cheater who fucks over your best friend.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
If Jacqueline had just hooked up with a rando at the club, this would not be... It would not be the same as... Not even close.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And I have a question for you about episode six. Who's in the most trouble right now?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Well, at what point in the night you think she got his number, his personal cell?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
You never saw her texting him before.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Oh, yes. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, I think that Jacqueline, I read her as the type of person that does a lot of this hierarchical assertion of dominance just purely on instinct. You know, I don't think she I don't think she knew she was going to do it until she was doing it. And then she was doing it. Laurie says at some point, it's like nobody ever changes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And the thing is, you know, a walk of shame is a walk of shame. You know, the concept itself feels very sort of Bush-era American pie. You know, it's like we're past that as a culture. And yet, if it's your own brother... I can't remember last night at all.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Who's in the worst place?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I don't remember that. You know, we're laughing at it because it's extremely funny, but it is it is a really sort of dark like Saxon is acting as if he were assaulted. You know what I mean? Like they're in this strange position where like Saxon is having the morning after trauma, like genuinely, you know, like he did not offer consent.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yeah, like of someone that did not consent to something and the look that he gives Lachlan, the posture that he has, the way he holds himself when Lachlan is around and the ease that Lachlan has in his body. You know, maybe I'm projecting here, but it feels very recognizable. When he thinks about this, he gets nauseated.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
You know, like he's giving like there has been a power reversal this entire time. He's had the upper hand. He's been telling Lachlan what to do. And didn't you think there was a palpable shift? Like Lachlan comes up, he's more or less at ease. He's giving hungover, but he's more or less at ease and he's like, I blacked out. And I'm not saying that I think Lachlan did.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
I mean, like, I don't think that Lachlan assaulted Saxon. I don't think that he took advantage. But there is, you know, I don't think what he did was something I would ever want to participate in personally. But I don't think he was deliberately exploiting his brother sexually, whatever. Right. But they have that dynamic. Like Lachlan is at ease.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Like Patrick Schwarzenegger is, you know, he is sweating. He's gulping things. He's slapping bugs off his body. He's profoundly uncomfortable in his own skin.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
And Saxon is trying to blame his bad mood on the fact that Chelsea wouldn't fuck him. Right. And Chelsea's like so sincerely like, I could never because you don't have a soul.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
Yes. Well, it's like up till the full moon party, everyone was sewing. And now they have to reap.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
But she, like, I loved this Chelsea moment. And she's, you know, to a certain extent, like, she's completely right. Like, hooking up with sex would 100% be an empty experience, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 6: “Denials” with Patrick Schwarzenegger and Leslie Bibb
No, I mean, Saxon is the one that needs to spend a year at the meditation retreat. Like, I mean, if we're talking about what should happen, you know. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right. And I think that here there will be this sort of reinvention sort of recurrence thing that will be happening that's sort of thematically consistent with the setting and Buddhism and whatever. And it's like Rick is, you know, he is... on his second, third, fourth iteration of a life, it feels like.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
There's that moment where he and Greg, who's still going by Gary, Tanya's Greg, it's like they talk about doing this and that, and it's like every fucking white American is here for having done this and that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah, exactly. And so it's like, quote unquote, Gary is trying to leave his life behind. Rick is trying to either leave something behind or step into a new version of himself. I feel like Piper is doing that. The Ratliff dad is trying to, you know, take the $10 million, the mere $10 million he got out of whatever –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
fraud bribery situation went on in Brunei and try to leave it behind, but he can't. It's catching up with him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
But I do think for most of the characters, like, I think there tend to only – I think that there are like a couple of journeys per season that really cut at a strange angle against character's destiny. But mostly people kind of end up where – do you know what I mean? Right. Like it's like everyone – there's something surprising happens to everyone in the course of their week at the White Lotus.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I'm lessening on my Chelsea identification. It's really the party girl aspect of her that I connect with. But she is a little bit more naive and sweet in this episode than I am necessarily. I unfortunately am beginning to identify more with the three women who are constantly talking shit about each other.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
But – You know, it's like, you know, Jake Lacey's coming out of there, same guy, same wife. You know what I mean? Like there's, but it is interesting to wonder like who it's going to be, who it's going to be that's going to get out of the ringer, you know, kind of.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And now we're so excited to be joined by Lisa Manibal and Tame Tap Tim Tong, who play our friends Mook and Guy Talk.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Thank you for having us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
We've been loving watching the season. I wanted to ask you guys, you know, Mike White always casts people from the country, the place where he's shooting. How did you guys feel in these roles as the primary Thai voices in the show? And what do you hope viewers sort of take away about Thailand?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
You have to not know what you're doing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
You could have secured that promotion to be the bodyguard, the international bodyguard.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Oh, God. Well, unfortunately, I'm not. I mean, I'm not a lorry. Never been a lorry. Just kidding. I probably have been a lorry at times in my past. It is one of the women that are eager to be the alpha. This episode is called Special Treatments, and it's once again written and directed by Mike White. The episode starts where the last episode ends, which is like after Carrie Coon has gone to bed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
How did you guys, you know, the romance from the very first scene when the motorbike breaks down and you're kind of making the joke, like, give me a hundred baht or whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
It's like, it is truly such a sweet and lovely and, like, totally, like, I was immediately invested from that. And I wonder if you guys can talk about that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
The relationship, like we start the show and your characters have clearly have had a slow burning little flirtation for a bit now and are still moving very slow despite Guy Tuck's desire to make it move faster by saying your family already loves me, et cetera. But yeah, tell me about how you sort of together sort of conceived what this relationship and kind of slow burning romance would be.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
That was the you coming out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Oh, let's not talk about it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I wonder if y'all can talk about the, you know, these are sort of notoriously fun experiences for the cast, everyone on there together. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about what the actual filming experience was like and how you, maybe how the two of you supported and grounded each other as this, you know, like important pair within the cast at large. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Say more. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And Kate and Jacqueline, Leslie Bibb and Michelle Monaghan can really get into the gossip. And the dynamic on display between these three women is that everything that they are doing when it's the three of them together is completely fake. And then as soon as one of them leaves, they snap into the mode of truth-telling.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
How did you guys think about what each of these characters individually wants their life to look like in five years, ten years? Did you have a sense of that? Does Guy Toc want to be the bodyguard traveling internationally? You were saying that Mook is ambitious, right? Where do they see themselves post White Lotus?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah. For sure. Do you think that Mook wants to perform?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
We're loving this evening. Thank you very much.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I can't believe that I was just invited to join Blackpink.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I'm going to start my intensive dance training tomorrow.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I started in preparation and hoped that she would say that to me. Okay, now to Sam Nivola plays Lachlan.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I want to know what the casting notice was like. What was the description of Lachy?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
You were the precise type of virginal teen. Exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Your character is presented from the beginning as like there are these two sort of poles in terms of the older siblings, in terms of Piper and Saxon. And they are on two kind of extremes in terms of aggression and gentleness, whatever you call it, masculinity, femininity. Did you have a sense of the character as truly in the middle, truly not knowing where he was going to land?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Talking about Michelle Monaghan.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And here in New York, you can just have both for about three decades. We were talking about that in each season there has been a gentle boy, right? Like a gentle moldable boy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
There's Quinn season one and Albie season two. And now you. Yeah. I don't know. Did you like I mean, Lachlan is such a classic youngest. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Was it fun to, I don't know, be the baby? Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Well, but there's, like, some... The one time that you really see Lachlan assert himself is when Victoria is rude to Leslie Bibb, when Parker Posey's rude to Leslie Bibb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's actually, like... Mom, what were you doing? Yeah, like, how do you understand their relationship, those two characters?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And, yeah, it felt like that moment was Lachlan kind of calling his mom out on, like, this is actually – The defense mechanism is overwhelming.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah. Lachlan is sort of obsessed with tsunami videos.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Something I relate to. What do you make of that? Is he afraid that something is going to come undone?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Like everyone in the family is aware that it could go away any second in very different ways. Exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I don't think they ever see each other. Yeah, and now we just have to wait for the shit talk about Leslie Pipp.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Sam, thank you so much for talking to us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Thanks to our guests, Tame and Lisa and Sam, and we'll see you all next week.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
But it's like you find out when they're talking about Jacqueline that it's like both of those women have been profoundly sexually unfulfilled for a long time and you find it out just in the way that they kind of...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I'm obsessed with him. I'm obsessed with him. When he drifts away to what you know is a montage in his head of him, you know, like Follia, just him taking the stage in a grand review with feathers and diamonds everywhere.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Hello, and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Well, but then he kind of wins her sympathy again because there is a actually truly surprising interlude in here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
With the robbery where Valentin is distracting Guy Tuck at the gate. Yes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
they just steal some jewelry i'm like that's not that much stuff you know like you didn't get a cash register like is that i mean it's never established is that really expensive it must be expensive i guess that's the assumption she really wants that snake choker i know we're gonna get that back but that's gonna reoccur yeah but we got the gun i mean i was surprised that we physically physically that we physically saw a gun i was expecting to not see the gun until the last episode i mean who knows if it's the same gun etc but i enjoyed it yeah right we saw a gun
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
But so on the way back out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, no. I'm not squeamish about violence, but I hate the sound of something colliding with a head. But clearly, Mook is attracted to more aggressive signs of masculinity. She's kind of interested in the dirtbag bodyguards or whatever, right? She is giving all of the classic signals of this nice man is too gentle to me and I don't like that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And I'm here to warn you that if you haven't watched episode two of season three, watch it right now before listening to this, because we will spoil every single beat of the episode for you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Oh, that's so funny. Right. But so once he is sort of bandaged up, she comes to him and is like, I was so worried or whatever, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right, in which Chelsea and Rick get to feel like a functional and loving couple compared to the other two.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Totally.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Occasionally he lets her and then she feels happy about it. And then he obviously feels happy about it. But he doesn't always let her. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And then the continued psychosexual horror show that is Patrick Schwarzenegger. Like, he has gotten a boner during a massage. I mean, you know, I'm not going to fault him for that, but is mad that nothing happened to it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
But fresh out of, you know, Delta whatever it got to.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
He's kind of like a ball of flame. Like, his presence is just this, like, unidirectional, like, nearly pansexual, you know? Like, it's really specifically masculine, but it's just, like, he is just so horny and so aggressive. I mean, he's sexually harassing both of his siblings so hard. Do you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
He's two seconds away from, like, trying to see his younger brother's dick. Just, like, trying to be like, okay, but how big is it when it's hard? You know, like, he's just like, oh, he's so... Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And then his sister has found out when she is on this sort of hammock situation in the water that I've never personally experienced and I'd really like to now.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
How do I—and it seems actually like we can't. Like, I had that thought, and I was like, actually, I can't replicate this. It cannot be done. I need open ocean. But she finds out then from Lachlan, the younger brother, who's just been in a sensory deprivation tank, basically is asking, like, are you a virgin? We've been talking about how you're hot, but you're not having sex.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And understandably and rightfully so, the sister's like, what?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Why are you talking about this? Well, and we learn from Piper that she believes in God—
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
We don't know exactly in what sort of presentation format, but my guess for her is that she is kind of a recent convert to spirituality or, you know, like something. And she had such a strong, like I feel, I mean, not that this is any of my business, but it was part, I feel like she has had sex and she is re-devoting her, like that she is trying to deny the life of the flesh at the moment.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
She's trying to transcend, you know, the prison of one's body and identity. We'll see.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Josh, I have a question for you before we get into all of this. This is my toxic sex in the city assortative behavior question. After following these characters for two episodes, who are you? Are you still Goggins?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
I know. And it's such a good—I hadn't thought about her feelings that she would have. I mean, because at what point does she already know that Tanya is dead? Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Does she know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right. Because I feel that she will feel an implicit alliance with Tanya despite Tanya having configured herself as her enemy. Like it should kind of be like the enemy of my enemy is my friend. But they're not going to form an alliance. Right. Right. Like you just kind of feel that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Now I'm like, you know what, Greg, Gary, would you come back to a third White Lotus property? Would you associate yourself? Wouldn't you want to go down the other side of the hill to the different resort? Greg is courting danger, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
And there's no way he remembers her at all, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
There's no chance he remembers her, which I hope she is to her advantage.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Those three actors, when they are doing, having fun, but primarily, like, in a way that's like I'm performing a woman on vacation having fun.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
They're so profoundly self-conscious when they're around each other. And then the way it totally collapses and changes as soon as one of them leaves the room. It's just, it's amazing. It's amazing stuff.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
Well, and they make it clear in almost everything the parents say that the primary sort of locus for them and like what is a good family is the sort of successful performance and edifice, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
It's like you have to not basically like you've got this beautiful facade, like don't let it slip. Leslie Bibb, she has that line where she's like, Well, you know what they say, the bigger the front, the bigger the back or whatever. Yeah, right. You know, and it's like – and this is an operative line for everyone but especially that family. It's like they're – it is so core to their identity.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 2: “Special Treatments” with Tayme Thapthimthong, Lalisa Manobal and Sam Nivola
You feel that these children have heard since they were like little kids in perfect Christmas outfits posing for their perfect Christmas picture in front of a giant, you know, tree at a country club that like – The virtue exists in the performance of that virtue. Like there is no sense of the internal unless it is what you're projecting.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
You're doing it right. And, yeah, Leslie Bibb is in her full, like, button-up PJs, like, ha, ha, ha, ha.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. Well, as the party breaks up, Laurie has a moment with Valentin, right? Like she's kind of cuddling and like they have this sort of close goodbye. And Laurie, it's coherent with her character that she's not making a move. And instead, she's just in this glow of having felt desirable and she's doing her little moves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Second only to when Saxon totally out of his depth is doing like Saturday Night Fever hands at the full moon party. And I was like, not Saturday Night Fever hands at the full moon party. But then Jacqueline is back in her room. She gets a text. I actually thought, you know, my dumb ass, I was like, oh, my God, Harrison finally texts back and they're going to like have FaceTime sex or something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, I didn't see you either.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But it's Valentin, and she has been plotting behind Laurie's back the whole time, and the alliances are about to switch again. But maybe we have been saving the most shocking sexual revelation of all for last, which is that Lachlan asserts dominance over Saxon by making out with him, by giving him...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But it arrived in the... It was not what you were expecting. I never expected it to be lock-lit. I mean, we knew there was going to be incest from... Something's happening. Something, you know, the psychosexual dynamics are too. But I loved...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
You know, despite, you know, the impulse perhaps being toxic, asserting dominance of your sibling by sexually aggressing upon them, like they got the guy that Chelsea in particular has been feeling antagonistic to do something that will kind of horrify himself the next day. And when he takes the drug, he's like, now no one take advantage of me. Oh, right. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, we'll watch it again just for you. Yeah, just to see. All right. So this episode is called Full Moon Party. It is written and directed by Mike White. There is sort of two tracks happening on it. There is quieter stuff happening at the hotel with three of the Ratliffs, Belinda, Mook and Guy Talk, et cetera. And then everyone else is lepting loose. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
What did you think when that happened?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
You thought it wasn't?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, Lachlan has, Lachlan is, to me, he's the winner of this episode. Yeah. Hugely.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
We should talk, though, about the reason why I asked you, Josh, a white man, if actually you felt that you were an Asian girl on the inside is because of Sam Rockwell's, as Frank, his monologue in the bar to Wilton Goggins. I mean, Walton Goggins is giving his face as it shifts between like, you're kidding me. And then it goes to like, whoa, you're not kidding me.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And then by the end, in his mind, he's like, damn, everyone's got problems. You know, he's like, damn, I'm not the only one that's like, actually, you might be more fucked up than me.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Well, the first line is quite a lot. And it's like he's drinking chamomile tea. Yes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I don't know what that story is. And Frank is still enough in the life or whatever it is that he can be a fixer. He can be a purveyor of, you know, some whatever. We don't know what he gives Rick exactly. Right. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
We can assume, but we don't know at all. And I was wondering if and when, and probably when, this show was going to deal— because it's kind of obliquely dealt with this, you know, the subtext of setting the show in Thailand, which, I mean, it is like a place of profound sexual exploitation by Westerners, you know, whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And it was like, how are we going to get that square in the face at some point? Because it feels like we have to and we will. And we did in the wildest— The Wildest Way where Sam Rockwell starts talking in the mode of all of the other guys that we've met in the show, which is just like, yeah, I like Asian girls. So I came here and I'm here to fuck Asian girls. And then this crew turns about.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Seven more times all the way around. The delivery of it is amazing. Like, how would we even describe the way he delivers it? It's not deadpan. It's almost like there is definitely some connection to the way that people who are sober and Al-Anon or whatever it is are accustomed to delivering.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
He's sharing. He's accustomed to, you know— He absolutely bonkers years-long periods of people's life being boiled down to 45 seconds and delivered with a completely straight-facing, unblinking eye contact. And he's doing it here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah. Right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. It turns out that I need to put on lingerie and perfume and pretend I am an Asian girl. And also I have to pay an Asian girl to sit in the corner of the room and stare at us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And later in this episode, we get to talk to two queens, Carrie Coon and Parker Posey.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. Actually, Frank has found out. Frank has has a very particular angle on the idea of identity being a prison.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And he's found a very particular solution. And it is one that it's like, oh, this man has more access to the deepest, darkest, truest parts of himself. You know, but also you can't look at Frank and say, oh, he's enlightened. You know, it's like he's still giving like every other person is an instrument to me. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Like it's like the way that he conceives of this profound truth of his sexual identity is only reached through Frank. blunt force, mass scale, instrumentalization of other people's identities and bodies. So it's like he's transcended and yet he's deeper in the shit than anyone else too.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, and there's a way in which it's this very funny perversion of this Buddhist idea of reincarnation and different souls in different bodies and that in a past life we could have been this other thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Oh, he's so good, this episode. The shift from swaggering business dad to broken sack of Play-Doh.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
We had learned earlier in the episode that he was an altar boy. He prays for deliverance.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
He actually humbles himself for the first time in this entire plot arc. Like every other tactic that he has taken is one of evasion or confrontation. And here he prostrates himself existentially and it's like, I can't find my way out on my own. And it's like, can he be saved is the question.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. It's like everyone has come in with a very fixed, verbalized, clear idea of who they are and what they are about and what value system they abide by. And these things have all been externalized in conversation. And we have watched these characters say who they are and what they believe in.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
You know, the girls through gossiping, the Ratliffs through this overt conversation, Chelsea and Rick through their gossip. interaction with each other. And now this has all been tested in various ways. Even Chelsea's commitment to love and connection and this eternally recurring partnership she believes she has. All of these things are tested.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And the question for me is like, which characters will end the season with this thing that has been exposed just instantly recovered with the exact same facade that was there before and which are going to stay cracked open. Right, right, right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, and I think that this season is opening up to that possibility of transformation more so than other ones, like inherently because of the themes that are emerging. And it's dangling the possibility of actual transformation. I mean, even in the conversations that Rick is having with the therapist, right? Like there's a who will be converted to something else and who will not. And I don't know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yes. Okay, so the dynamic between the three girlies is longstanding. They've been friends forever. How conscious is Laurie of the power dynamic between them and how does she think about it sort of coming into the vacation?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And in this case, though, she's correct, right? As she finds out at the end of, you know, it's like not just you think it, but she sees them gossiping about her. And that's when we have that great moment at the end of the first episode. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But if you're not, you know, sniping people's love interests on vacation, then you're not really, you know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I think what the dynamic shows, though, that even in the most natural, long-standing, old, you know, long-founded relationships, it's still complicated. Like, it's still, there's still knives in there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. You know what? I was saying last time that Saxon needs to confront, you know, the unassimilatable other or whatever. And it's like he goes in the zone at the end of the party, right? Like he's, I was waiting for something like this moment for Saxon when he can't, you know, he says, he's like, I don't do drugs. I am the drug because he can't handle drugs. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
They're like, your doctor is not as good as ours.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I have a question for you. Playing Bertha and then playing Lori and also being the Jacqueline of your high school friend group... I wonder if you could talk about, you know, playing the alpha, being an alpha, and then the fun, the particular fun and the nuance of playing a character like Laurie that's at the bottom of the pecking order.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Valentin plus one of the other guys.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She has that little triumphant walk when they leave.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for talking to us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Of course she's the Jacqueline.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But then she was like, I'm the nice Jacqueline.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah. And now we're going to talk to Parker Posey.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Thank you. Nice to be here. We're really excited to talk to you. And my number one question is, does Victoria Ratliff know that she's in Thailand?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I was wondering, was there, thinking about how Jennifer Coolidge had sort of done some improv in the first couple of seasons, was there room for improv with Victoria, the sort of scratch my arm moment?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right, and he's also constantly articulating more than anyone his framework of how the world is and how the world works. And it seems like Lachlan was like, you know what, like, don't talk about it, just be about it, you know? Like it's like Saxon is it's as if he's living within this sort of fortress of mantras about strength and domination. Oh, right. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, there is kind of a grandeur in the way she's doing it. And I'm from Texas, so I... You know. I know. I know so well. I was like, oh, I've met a version of this family. I've been at their lake house getting kind of vaguely yelled at by the dad about my internship or lack thereof, right? And you're like, I'm not your daughter.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But it's sort of also like the drama of the repression. I mean, there's so much power in that, too, and when will it break through? perhaps the lorazepam begins to run out and perhaps, you know, what she might overhear late at night becomes a bit clearer. You know, how did you understand that as you were doing it?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But he is constantly constructing this by like advising other people about how he knows everything. Oh, right. And then the drug renders him nonverbal. Right. And the drug does what these drugs do, which is a layer is removed and you have nothing but your deepest inner resources and instincts because you can't talk and have no idea what's happening.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Okay, so we asked Jason Isaacs this question, and I feel that we must ask you, who is Victoria's favorite child?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I love how she's giving sort of stage diva, you know, like the cat on a hot tin roof moment she gave us. It was really good.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, it is. I think she grew up in the South. Yeah. Spectacular guests this episode, if I must say so myself. And we'll see you guys for the next one.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And Saxon is finding that he he's kind of in awe, you know, like he actually is left with kind of a gentle and profoundly vulnerable. Like like Lachlan is actually like his inner self is much more in command when stripped away than Saxon's is. And I love to see that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Oh, no, yeah, he's like a diet beer type. You know what I mean? Like he's doing Miller High Life and alternating, you know. And my girls, Chelsea and Chloe are like, yeah, whatever. I'll do this on a Tuesday, you know. It doesn't matter. Chloe and Chelsea's conversation when they're girl talking on the yacht and Chelsea's like, he's like my child. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And she's on a yacht and she's going to a full moon party and she's in this beautiful place and all she can do is think about her 50-year-old boyfriend who might be about to murder someone.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
The foursome at the full moon party, they're not aggressive there. You know, they're kind of feeling out what's going to happen later. They're sitting on the beach beholding the fireworks.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Because they're all thinking about existence, kind of, right? It sort of feels like all four of them are in a space of not quite discontentment, but sort of existential transition in a little bit of a way where Chloe is like, I got into this business for like money and constant attention from this man. The relationships run its course. The relationships run its course.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And Chelsea is wondering if hers has too. Like, why am I just on the hook for this guy? And Lachlan is like, what will become of me? What is the form my power will take? And do I have any? And can I exert it over my brother? And is he right about everything or is he not? And, you know, my sister is about to leave me. And like, what does that mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And and Saxon is like, I know exactly what the world is. And he takes this drug and he's like, whoa. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And what the crowd is sort of like lucid heel backpackers that are on month seven. Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of that. Like white people in Tevas.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And wow, what an episode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And you did it just through the experience rather than through the candies, sweet tarts or whatever Chloe says.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I adored it. Yes. I adored it for so many reasons. I was thinking back to when we talked to Michelle Monaghan and she was saying Jacqueline is very interested in sort of control but also letting loose. And this was the episode. Like Jacqueline is on an unarticulated journey that's nonetheless extremely clear to the viewer. Right? Like we see her at the club.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
We knew that stuff was going to happen in the Full Moon Party, but before we start talking about the episode, I have a question for you. I feel like this is a valuable opportunity for us. I'm an Asian woman in front of a white man. This is, I want to give you a safe space to say, like, if you have always, if you believe that on the inside you too are an Asian woman, you could say it now.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She's finally – she's found the party she wanted to get to the whole time. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Exactly. She's found the place where she can look at herself as if someone else is looking at her, which is what this character kind of wants. She wants to be looking hot, to be looking young, to have younger hot men all around her. And watching her. And we literally get her audience. There are these other three hot girls who are looking at her with great animosity.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
And the more they look at her with animosity and jealousy, the more she is just... Lusciously loving it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
The three actresses were so good. Like the entire time you can see that Leslie Bibb is uncomfortable. Even when the other girls are dancing, absolutely free of inhibition. She is conscious that she's sweaty. She's conscious that she's a little tired. You can see immediately that she's already hoping the night will be over. She's checking her watch.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She's like, okay, maybe another hour and then we can just go to bed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. Well, and unfortunately, Kate got assigned to Vlad, the guy with the live, laugh, love mural on his chest, the silver ring. He had a tough life. He had such a tough life, but he can't – he simply can't stop talking about it. They're all like, yeah, like, what a fun party. You're so hot. And he's like, my mother died when I was 12. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She got the dud.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yes, in this context. And she's hating to be the dud.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Kate does not consider herself a dud. No. You know, she's like, I'm prettier than Lori. Why do I have that?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
So Belinda has her lovely romantic moment. I love that for her. Yeah. I really felt so happy for her.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, she's like, do you guys have consent in Thailand? Yeah, it's so funny.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, I thought it was so sweet. The performance is great. She's like, there's room in this bed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She suggests calling all the police.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Let's call all the police. And then Fabian goes into full Swiss banker mode, whatever. She's like, someone here might be a killer. He's like, that's none of my business.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Parker Posey is really giving us so much. She's really on a lorazepam comedown. She's like, you're going to be a NXIVM. You could return with a completely different set of values. And Piper's like, that's the point. But Piper also says that she feels that she needs to do this because she needs to understand what's going to make her happy. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to make sure we had that in this room. Okay, my real question for you was, are you sad that you didn't show up in the Full Moon Party?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Yeah, there's a lot in here about, like, virtue structures and ideas of pleasure and an idea of, you know, like, what everyone's personal code of ethics are and how that flings them onto this kind of mad evening.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
But I just thought it was really funny that Enlightened Piper, ostensibly the voice of the purest version of the show's thematic searching, is, I think, quite tellingly, she's saying, I want to know what's going to make me happy, not... I mean, maybe the closest that anyone gets to saying it here is Lachlan...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Right. She understands the falsity in her parents' values with a capital V.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
I was... For people that maybe missed earlier episodes, Josh was on set bragging, bragging, having been on set for the full moon party.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She's like, what is pleasure? What is it? Sitting alone in your hotel, you're like, what is it? And then the other, everyone else is just like, well, let's try it on.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Well, yeah, it's like everyone is approaching this episode with like a very clear idea of what will make me happy. And they're either aligning with or totally at odds with the circumstances in which they find themselves. One suspects that if Piper had just gone with her siblings and done some drugs and sat on the edge of the ocean and looked at the fireworks, she...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She would feel the feeling that she seeks when she prays and feels that presence. You know what I mean? Like, it's sort of like you... I kind of, I want that for her. I was so happy for Lori in a lot of this episode, you know, until the very end, where she is getting, you know, to hear from Valentin that she's a sexy dancer. She's whipping her hair around. She's taking the shot.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
She's like, I'm the girl that takes the shots. She's getting to feel... cool and reckless and desired.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 5: “Full Moon Party” with Carrie Coon and Parker Posey
Like, she gets one of my favorite situations in the world, which is when you're in a pool and someone outside the pool gives you a new drink. I'm like, wow, that's just, that's living. When that happens, you're living. And, you know, it's four in the morning or whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
She's a former yoga teacher just along for the ride, trying to get him to relax, being like, should we get fucked up? Should we try some tantric? Would you like that? And he's just so angry the whole time. And so like they get into, you know, finally he gets sick of her, kicks her to the bar.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Are you holding back your greatest tidbit about this season specifically, which is...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Like one of the last scenes of the episode, she befriends another girlfriend, another beautiful girlfriend of an older man. And they decide to get drunk together. And they talk about all the bald white men that are in Thailand. And we sort of pan around to the respective bald white men. And then to this specific one who is?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
The employee of Black Lives Matter. Yes, exactly. Bureau of Land Management. He's here. Did we find out exactly what the shady thing going on? Was he trying to kill her for insurance money?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
That they had sort of a profit-sharing agreement with the gays?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And he's been living in Thailand for a year. We learned that from Chloe, the girlfriend.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Do you?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
So I know you have a theory about the White Lotus.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah. What is your metathesis about White Lotus?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, I'm Gia. I write for The New Yorker. I'm one of those toxic people that believes, like, but if I went to The White Lotus, I would just have an amazing time and be happy. Funny enough, though, I have been to all three shooting locations. I mean, not in connection to specifically the filming of The White Lotus, but I have been... more or less a vacationer in all three places.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
You could call it that, sure, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
But sorry, your theory is that the real sort of thematic subtext is that desire is the thing that causes suffering. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
But season two is too. I mean, my argument is that like— All plots are about this. That desire is what gives something stakes and the thing that instigates the plot, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And the needs are what puts the spikes in the plot, you know? But, right, it's interesting because now we are in the home of this ideology.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
That seems to be the difference that the hotel is configured around awareness and spirituality and gratitude really overtly. You know, I mean, it was interesting. The part of the Buddhist writing that Piper is listening to on audiobook is about identity being a prison, that we build a prison, we step into it, we lock it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I mean, we're supposed to take it as that. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
But this time there's someone with a gun. You know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I think there's also something funny happening in the writing too, which is like being aware of something is not morally additive necessarily, right? Like there's this strange weight placed on like, okay, like being self-aware or just being aware of suffering, of privilege or whatever. That scene is somehow redemptive when in fact it's not.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
You can be completely aware and still be doing the same horrible shit.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Exactly, yeah. And I feel that there is something funny going on in the writing where – Previously, the characters were often not self-aware. They were taking their experiences for granted, the ability to be at these gorgeous places. And they're more sort of aware and self-conscious here, perhaps because they've chosen to go to a place that's kind of wellness and awareness focused.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
So I'm an asshole just like the rest of them slash us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And I think that that will be like this kind of growing tension and joke in the writing where everyone is so aware of their blessings. And it makes them actually so much worse. Yeah. Now, we have the pleasure of talking to Michelle Monaghan, who plays Jacqueline Lemon, famous TV star on the show. So excited to be here, you guys.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Michelle, your character comes with a backstory that is supposed to be immediately legible to the viewer and is. You're a big star. The owner of the hotel is dying to meet you. I wanted to ask you, what are the pleasures as a movie star of playing a movie star? What does that allow you to get to do?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
It's true.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Tell us, as you read through all the scripts, what were those nuances that emerged for you, that deepened the part for you and showed you the specificity of who Jacqueline was going to be? And specifically, that was not you, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Before we get into the recap of the episode, I have a burning question. Who did you have the most immediate identification with on this season?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
It's just very relatable. Yeah, there's something in there about the three of them have been friends for so long that any decision that any one of them makes, it's personal to the other two. It's somehow a referendum. It's somehow a judgment. Some shadow is cast over the other two no matter what.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, and you were like, this shows up in the first episode when the women are watching the mask performance.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
They all have clearly this ingrained memory of having been sort of... You know, of Jacqueline as the star and the face. And then they're like, we were here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Of course, you're the pretty face. And Jacqueline was like, what? What are you talking about? And it left an impact on them. And Jacqueline's like, oh.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
You know, we were discussing, we were talking about it yesterday and I was like, this is, you know, deeply familiar to me as a woman. Yeah. The framework that this sort of when one person leaves the room or when you're on a side chat where it's like, There is a specifically feminized way of laundering the most unkind impulses through the most kind language, you know? Ooh, wow.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
That's a deep statement right there. You know, and it's just like, I just want her to be happy, you know, and you're just saying the meanest shit.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
So I think we're close to running out of time, but I have a dumb question, if you will humor me. I love dumb questions. There's really no dumb questions. Well, we've been debating.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
It's the key question, really, here. I love it. Extremely curious about what Jacqueline Lemon's show is. It's never stated, right? It hasn't been stated yet, but like, what are we talking here?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Is it like a Grey's Anatomy vibe?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And I was like, you're right. It doesn't matter, dude. Michelle, thank you so much for talking to us. It was such a pleasure. Yes. Thank you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
So, Josh, what do you think the show that Jacqueline stars in is? Is it a Grey's Anatomy? Is it a good wife?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, great.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Have you guys been friends for 20 years?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Okay, so let's talk about Thailand. Was it always the plan to come here for season three?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
You never leave. I'm a Chelsea through and through.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Josh, should we do recreational nebulizers?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, every season and its themes end up connecting to the setting in a particular way. Could you talk more about how this season's themes came to sort of coalesce around Thailand?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
You know, every season of this show, I've identified with the person that gets brought there but, like, definitely can't pay for it. You know what I mean? Although I will say... When I have been to, respectively, Hawaii or – like I never have a bad time on vacation. I believe like very – I have a strong like moral belief in one should never have a bad time in a beautiful place.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, and as Josh has been talking about with his private theory about the show, I mean, the entire show has in a way been about desire being the thing that drives people to suffering. And so here you really get it full force.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Okay, so I think we knew, people knew coming into this season that Natasha Rothwell was going to come back. We were going to get Belinda, but it comes as a shock in the first episode when Greg is one of the many white bald men sitting at the White Lotus. He made it to three.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
At what point did y'all know that Greg was going to be, or Gary perhaps I should say, at what point did y'all know he was going to be in this season?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
So I've got a question. The White Lotus is one of the best shows to play the sex in the city. Who are you on the show game? And I've been discussing it with Josh ad nauseum. Well, first, can you guess which character Josh identifies with the most on this season?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Okay.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And I don't think I ever have. But again, that's toxic denial on my part. But Chelsea, just clueless, happy, you know – party girl along for the ride, just trying to get people to get drunk with her. I guess I'm sort of aging out of that phase of my life, but the part where she's at the bar and meets another girl that's there for no reason, basically, and is just like, should we get pissed?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Getting a vision through a nebulizer after bronchitis, it sounds like a plot on White Lotus, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Dave, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, it has been so fun. Thanks to our guests, Michelle Monaghan and David Burnad, and to all of you guys listening. We'll see you next time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
and producer Kenya Reyes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Well, the part where I most identified with her, obviously, is when she gets poured the taster of wine. And she's like, I'm sorry to complain, but it's actually not very much you poured me. And she doesn't know that it's a normal thing that rich people do. That was what I was like, oh, she's me, I'm her.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Okay, so this episode is called Same Spirits, New Forms, like all the White Lotus episodes. It's written and directed by Mike White. And like all of the season openers, we get, you know, a shot of paradise. We get a monkey sitting on a tree branch overlooking this gorgeous sort of twilight paradise, you know, pastel sky Thailand scene. We're meeting a ton of people.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
The first two we get are Zion and Amrita. Amrita is teaching Zion to meditate in this beautiful pagoda. And this beautiful scene is broken up by the sound of gunfire. He leaves the pavilion. He jumps into a pond trying to stay clear of the gunfire. And then he sees the body, the traditional body in this season floating in the water.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Hello, and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast, Companion to Season 3. I'm Chia Tolentino.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Well, I also think it's like the previous deaths were more or less accidental, right? And this one is, you hear a gunfire and you're like, okay, I mean, someone is shooting to kill.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Someone set out to kill somebody, right? With more sort of violent intention that was previously there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
We also get two hotel employees, Mook and Guy Talk, which I didn't know until about 30 seconds ago.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
This is Lisa from Blackpink. I had no idea.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
We will be your co-hosts throughout this journey in Thailand. We'll be recapping and breaking down the episodes, discussing some of the larger big picture themes. We'll be speaking with the cast and the crew.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
It's funny. It's like it's different from the idol where Jenny was playing like still an idol, you know. But here she, Lisa, is playing this health mentor because this hotel has this like extreme sort of wellness meditation focus. Guy Tuck is a security guard. He's like very clearly in love with her who wouldn't be. She seems to be keeping him a little bit more at the distance.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
We can't really tell whether she's just being demure or if she's like, no, no, no, you're my friend. Please leave me alone.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I honestly, I love their vibe. There's that one scene where later in the episode where they're flirting and she is talking to the bodyguards of the hotel's owner. And he's sort of being protective. And I found them to have really wonderful, very sincere chemistry. Do you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And I kind of feel like maybe they will. I don't know. And then we have our recurring character.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Okay, then there's the Ratliffs, the family of five, an upper-class family from North Carolina, clearly extremely invested in tradition. What did you think about the accent work here?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I grew up in Texas. I went to school at the University of Virginia. This exact kind of family is as familiar to me as the back of my hand. I was legitimately, you know, this is as the kids say, but I was literally screaming.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
So Jason Isaacs and Parker Posey play Timothy and Victoria Ratliff. Victoria, the mom, just seems to really be on a steady drip of lorazepam. But that part at dinner where she's like, scratch my arm.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Their three impeccably named adult children are Saxon, played by Patrick Schwarzenegger, Piper, played by Sarah Catherine Hook. Piper, incredible name today. She would be Hadley, but this girl this age is Piper. and Lachlan, played by Sam Nivola. They normally vacation in the Caribbean. They are in Thailand because Piper is a senior at Chapel Hill.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And if you haven't had a chance yet, I strongly recommend you check out the Look Back episodes of this podcast in which host Evan Ross Katz dives deep into the first two seasons of White Lotus and speaks with everyone from Mike White to Jennifer Coolidge. You can find those episodes on this very podcast feed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
She's writing a thesis on Buddhism, and Parker Posey's character also went to Chapel Hill. Lachlan is deciding whether to go to Duke or Chapel Hill. The oldest son went to Duke, as did the dad. This is a classic sort of house divided. Victoria assures the sort of Very funny staff member named Pam who's assigned to them.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
There's a part where she's like, how good for you, how good for you, or whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
But she like assures them they're a totally normal family, which, yeah, you know, why not?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Yeah, yeah. Well, like, yeah, they – like not only normal but also kind of the best, clearly. They're invested in that idea. They're all – the men are upset about there not being sort of Wi-Fi privileges in the villa. Oh, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Oh, yeah. We don't actually have Wi-Fi in the villas.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I think it's a great idea.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Okay. But... It probably would have been better for the father if he had just locked up that phone because at some point of the episode, he gets like the nightmare call from a journalist being like, hi, we're trying to close this story in two days and we need to know. Can you give me a call back as soon as possible?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Nightmare call that it sounds like he deserves it every way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I'm actually astonished he called that guy back.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Like he wouldn't have called, like in real life.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
there is this immediate sort of psychosexual thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Where, like, there's three bedrooms, and they're trying to decide, like, where they're going to distribute the two kids, and Saxon tells Piper, like, he can't stay with you because you have full-grown genitals now.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And there's clearly like a sort of gendered thing. It's like, are you going to fall in line with the alphas?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Because of the profoundly disturbing end of the episode where you think that Saxon is about to just watch porn, you know, jerk off in front of his little brother to show him like what you're supposed to do with the penis. I honestly thought he was going to do that. And I'm just very glad we didn't have to...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
I'm not like a squeamish person, but I'm probably would rather not see, you know, incest, see the incest get. I'd rather see it get paced out teaspoon by teaspoon as it is going to presumably throughout the season rather than get it all at once in episode one.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Oh, yeah. I mean, I could go on this for an hour. There is objectively unequal distribution of power and ability and money, really. I mean, like – and the ability to move in the world where it's kind of – I mean, Carrie Coon is gorgeous, but they're kind of trying to – she is styled and she moves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
She's supposed to be the dowdy one, which is crazy because it's Carrie Coon. But, you know, she's very clearly positioned that way. And the other two – look like the movie stars that they are the entire time, are styled as such, have gotten, as they admit, impeccable work at their prestige, unnamed doctors or whatever.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
But the dynamic between women that are trying so hard to not admit that there is tension and competitiveness in any way is one of the funniest things to watch, if not necessarily to experience in the world. Can't wait to see what happens.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
The moment that I found most painful about the dynamic between the three women is when they are trying to complain about their lives. And Jacqueline is, you know, saying she can't have a bad day in public anymore. And Kate is saying she doesn't know if someone really likes me. For me, I mean, I think I'm cool, but what if they just want a board seat or whatever?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
And they're just reassuring each other back and forth, like, we're so lucky, we're so lucky. And nothing is, you know, if there's anything worse than people, like, being huge assholes, it's people being huge assholes while insisting they are so lucky and so grateful.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 1: "Same Spirits, New Forms" with David Bernad and Michelle Monaghan
Like, that is an echelon of pure sort of madness and cringe that I hope this season pushes into so hard because it makes me want to die. Yeah. Lastly, we've got Chelsea and Rick, who I love immediately. Chelsea's played by Amy Lou Wood. Rick is played by the iconic Walton Goggins, giving so much Walton Goggins. Yeah, you need to sort your shit out. You've got issues.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I continue to love, you know, like having appeared off the boat to have a certain kind of relationship. They actually, you know, the thing that prompts this admission from Rick finally is that she pulls him out and she's like, I'm about to leave. You know, she's like, I'm going to leave you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And she does it calmly and honestly. Yeah. And I was like, good for you. You guys are communicating. I know. They're actually a great couple.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
They're actually communicating so honestly. And then Rick's like, okay, I'll tell you. Okay, here's the answer. And he tells her.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
He comes in as the person with the most, seeming like he has the most to hide, and he is the only one currently being honest.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And Lachlan is like, you know what? I'm going to do that because my sister is about to leave me. I found that so... Yeah, that was very sweet. Yeah, he's like, what about me? Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Spicy episode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And she's like, sweetie, you'll be at college. And he's a little bit trying not to cry. It was so sweet. And then he's like, well, fuck it. I'm just going to get laid. He starts doing magic.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It's what he's got.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It would absolutely slay if everyone is drunk and you start doing close-hand magic. That would work.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And later in this episode, we'll be talking to Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook, who play Tim and Piper Ratliff. This episode is called Hide or Seek and written and directed, like all of them, by Mike White.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Years are changing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You're becoming more sympathetic to him because of the way he is towards Lachlan.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Is it also the introduction of his possible lack of business acumen?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, I like his teeth.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I'm slightly triggered by it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Having had all of this work on me seamlessly in so many years of my life.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It's incredible. There are some guys that just – that walk into a situation. They are absolutely sure they're going to come out of it with what they want. And there is like a pleasure in being around that kind of guy even – and especially sometimes if what they want is you or what they want is to get something out of you or, you know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
So I kind of inherently have a soft spot, so to speak, for that person. But I don't know. I need Saxon to sort of confront the terrifying divine in this situation. You know what I mean? I need him to be humbled before an encounter with the other.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
He's got a dynasty hanging over him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
But there's something interesting about Saxon's character specifically where it's like, I would bet $100 right now that that character has never been in love. You know, like I think when he's talking about like, I love work, Dad. Like he's so, he thinks that the world is conquerable. And it's been so easy for him to conquer in so many specific ways.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
But I just like have a feeling that this guy has never actually been in love. And I want something that terrifying to happen to him. Another way that the cue balls are scattering is the Belinda and Greg situation, which is tightening up. We don't know if Greg was in her room or if it was simply a monitor lizard. She's also afraid of the wildlife. It's been established.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
But we know that the sun is on his way. They're researching each other. They are researching each other. They are mutually Googling each other. And it's a little like it's – the stakes are high.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
They're eyeing each other in the lobby.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I mean the question is like what is there to – what would you do if you're either of them? Like I'm trying to be like what would I do if I was – like if I was Belinda, do I trust Chloe enough to care? No. Not telling Chloe. He's not connected to the White Lotus in any way. You can't tell the White Lotus. Right. You know, like who do you report to?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Well, kind of the second hint, right? Because the ladies were already saying, like, I don't think they even see each other.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
She doesn't have any recourse. And his only recourse is I am going to do something to the son to make her keep quiet basically, right? Like that's the only thing.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
He's looking for some sort of angle. And he finds nothing but, you know, I mean he finds the quickest thing to hold over a parent's head, which is the well-being of their child. Right, right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, like giving serial killer actually. Exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Well, and they both say, you know, he's like, I'm on vacation with my family. And he's like, just got to get out of the rat race. You motherfuckers. Yeah. As Parker Posey says when they get off the yacht, I bet some of those guys were actual killers. And I was like, she sees. She sees and she knows. And then so Timothy, you know, resurfaces from his haze and is like, Pam, I need my phone, Pam.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And it's kind of an unlikely pairing, which maybe is attributable to the fact that he's 10 years younger. We know he's on set all the time. We know he's super hot. And our minds go where Jacqueline's mind is going, which is he's... He's fucking.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
He gets the phone, gets the horrific news that he's going to lose everything. And, you know, his muscles and bones are melting, you know, in front of us. And he's slumped over the guardhouse kind of railing and he sees the gun.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Guy talk is honestly horrible at his job.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It's on the counter. It's on. Right. Well.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And it's sort of like gift wrapped. You know what I mean? It's in this gift box. By the way, this is for you. It's like, do you need a gun, sir? At this moment, it's like the fifth time or whatever that Chekhov's gun has appeared. Yeah, I know. It's just coming up every single episode. It's kind of.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah. He takes it. He immediately beforehand says, I would rather die than go to prison. And so I was like, OK, he's going to take the gun. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It's tremendous, yeah. But it also – I was like this is also giving me when I was 25 trying to follow the conversation at brunch when I was hungover. Do you know what I mean? You know when you're like at a wedding event after the wedding on Sunday and like you're like trying to talk to somebody's mom and you're just like –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, but your eyes are kind of wandering off in different directions.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
But it's also kind of a I mean, there's a joke aspect to it also. Right. Where it's like the show is playing with exactly, you know, you're just going to keep seeing the gun and it's just not going to be doing the thing that you think that you expected it to do. Right. Like it's like you're going to see the gun, but it's not going to be the mass shooting or whatever. That's right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Starting episode one.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And now we're so excited to talk to Jason Isaacs.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yes. And then the girlies' age becomes kind of, like, they've come into the White Lotus being like, this is our victory tour, we're hot, we are, you know, we're beautiful, all this stuff. And then they spend a lot of this episode kind of feeling like they're not at the center of anything, like they're not valuable.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
So I'm from Texas and I went to college in Virginia. And so the character that you are playing, I feel like I've known him my whole life because I have known versions of him my whole life. And I wanted to ask you about playing this archetype. Like, were you familiar with this?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
He comes off the boat as someone you think you know, right? He's giving, like, golf dad in finance, you know, taking this break. But I wanted, you know, how did you go about inhabiting not the archetype, but this...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
In your mind, as Tim is unraveling, you know, there's so much in the story about the Ratliff family values and what they stand for and how important that is.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Well, yeah, and the way that you are not talking is incredible. That's like when Parker Post is like, say something and you're like, oh, you know. But I was wondering, as you experienced it, do you think that Tim is reevaluating those values or is he simply thinking about how can I not lose my house? You feel something building, such as like perhaps
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
the most money in the biggest house was not the thing that I've been directed my entire life to want and build. Perhaps that has led me here, and it shouldn't have, to what extent is he thinking about it?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah. Do you understand him as someone, I was like, what is his relationship to pleasure? What is his relationship to, does he have any sense of his own identity aside from?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, who can't, you know, who want to go to the White Lotus but can't. And, you know, Jacqueline is looking around at loose skin, which she has not seen in years as a denizen of L.A. Which is her worst fear. Yeah, she's looking around at her worst fear made real. And it's like Jacqueline who, you know, everyone's been telling her for years and years and years, like, you look unbelievable.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Can I ask, who is Tim's favorite child?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, we knew it. We knew it. Of course it's Piper he loves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And do you think that, right, there's this sense that he respects her because she's chosen also what she wants?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Thank you so much for talking to us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Well, there was never any doubt in my mind who the favorite was going to be.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You know, you're how old? Like, you look like you're in your 30s still. You know, all of these things. Suddenly she has this thought, like— Did he send us here because he thinks we're old? And she freaks out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, confirmed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And now I get to talk to that favorite child, Sarah Catherine Hook or Piper Ratliff. Sarah Catherine, thank you so much for coming on the HBO Companion Podcast.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
We are loving the show. Yay. And I have to say, so I'm from Texas. You're from Alabama, right? Yes, yes. And, you know, when the Ratliffs walk off the boat, immediately everything, the clothes, the, you know, the way that Jason Isis is carrying himself, the way that the siblings are – everyone is well-groomed and a little bit repressed and a little bit about to act out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And, you know, there's so much that felt – and I went to college in Virginia. It just felt very – Oh, cool.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Uh-huh.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Like I flirted with this boy with a solo cup over a cat. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
It's all too true. I didn't know that you were the middle girl of two boys. Tell me more about that dynamic. Are you quieter than your other two siblings? Tell me about that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Well, yeah, and presumably the psychosexual dynamic is perhaps particular to the Ratliffs here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I wondered for you, as you were thinking about Piper, she seems like she's been a good girl her whole life. She's been smart. She's had it together. She's neat. She's held up that sort of obligation of that role in her family. And now she has her sights on something else. And did you think of this as this is the first time that she's perhaps about to rebel? Is this the first time?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I know. You get it. I know. I really know. And I sort of wondered watching Piper, I was like, it's sort of like you get out of that context and maybe you've had some kind of unnamed discontentment or sort of like, why is this the way it is? I don't love this. But you don't really have the language or the framework to understand that discontentment.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And then you, maybe in college, you experience something, an alternate framework that's like, you kind of realize, oh, I was perhaps a little more searching for something new than I thought, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, and I think we can see that she is searching to see who she is outside of the identity of her family and outside. She wants to test it, right? She wants to see what is in me that is not just this talk I'm getting from my mother about who the kind of person we are, what kind of people we are. It's like she wants to know what kind of person she is underneath it, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Well, last question. We asked Jason Isaacs who Timothy's favorite child is. correctly that he would say Piper. Piper?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
On all levels. Yeah. Like. Afraid of becoming her, afraid of.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Such a delight to talk to you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Amazing how Sarah Catherine and I are just, you know, literally the same person. Just really wonderful to connect in that way about being the same person. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. And there's this way in which when the camera starts panning around, the camera is operating as if it's Jacqueline's eyes and it becomes kind of this horror.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Or just like actual life when you're not within this extremely rarefied.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, and you kind of are implicated as the viewer, you know, in the fact that by your own – I'll just say by my own enjoyment of the show, it is also implicitly my enjoyment of being in a space where I can only look at beautiful, rich – you know, it's like the whiteness part is built into this. It's like the show is a critique of it, but it also is giving us –
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
this setting that can shut out, you know, anything that resembles real life, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
They've got to get out of here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And Jacqueline, like, she's also doing this extremely recognizable girl thing, I got to say, where it's like she's really in search of, like, the perfect party. Right, right. You know, she wants a really specific vibe. And as it eludes her, she just psychologically unravels. You know, like Jacqueline, who's the picture of ease.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And just gracious victory for the first couple of episodes here is in cold sweat the entire time that she's like, but we just need to have fun in this exact specific way that will make me feel young and make me feel like I'm still – And it kind of recurs later and there's a similar thing where they're like, okay, let's do something like authentic.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Like let's go somewhere that's like bustling with, you know, Jacqueline starts the episode by being like, it's quiet here. It's dead. Like we need to be in the mix. We need to really be in the mix. And then we're finding out what being in the mix means.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And there's also a thing where people go to Southeast Asia slash Thailand slash anywhere and they're like, we just want to like be in like among the locals, you know, like do something the locals do. Yeah. You know, like be around like more local color. And they go around local color and they're just around a bunch of Thai kids that start pummeling them with water guns.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Ruining their hair. Ruining their look.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Which is also kind of. of shot like a horror movie. It's kind of like they're in the trenches in World War I, sort of dodging fire.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And they're no longer able to see kind of the entire world as just, you know, an interchangeable backdrop for their victory tour, right? Like it's like actually the world has impulses and people of its own, remember?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino. And I'm Josh Behrman. And we saw Dick. We saw Dick in episode four.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, I mean, Rick is having begun the show broken. Like, Rick, the tsunami came for Rick at age 10 or whatever, right? Or age zero. It came for him in the womb. And he has been on this journey where it's like, will he choose to heal himself here with this girl who loves him and wants nothing more than for him to be healed and accept him in all of his brokenness and is not afraid of it?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Or is he going to lean harder into it and murder the co-owner of the hotel?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I found it extremely funny, the scene when Rick and Chelsea are talking at breakfast and he's like, I'm going to Bangkok. And she's like, but you have to be on the boat first. And he's like, I'm not getting on that boat. And that face she makes, I mean, we both have toddlers.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I have seen that face and it is a fake face and it works and it still works plenty of the time. And it worked on Rick. Rick's like, fine, I'll get on the boat, which is a boat that like, If someone's like, come get on my yacht and sail all day, there was a lot of resistance to this in the heart of the characters. I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And Parker Posey's like, I don't want to go. And they're like, why? And she's talking about, we hang out at the country club, Mom. And she's like, well, that's different. I know them. They know me. I know they're decent.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
I'm truly excited to see her withdrawal spiral. I hate to say on the next episode, which she no longer has access to, you know, Xanax every three to four hours. But how she's on a yacht and she hides her. She's so worried about her purse. It's safe there, right? She hides her purse behind a cushion. And her husband is the one, obviously, that steals the drugs.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. But she should just be hiding it from her husband. And there's something like, you know, wonderfully the show is not going to go hard on this, but, you know, they are an upper class family in the South. It's like, where do you think all this money came from in the first place?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You know, where do you think your beautiful house, this beautiful land, like, where do you, like, you think, oh, like, there's a certain, she's like, well, he's in finance, you know. And as we all know, American contemporary, you know, financialization is completely upstanding, not exploitative, you know. It's like she has this idea that he's making money the clean way.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Exactly, exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
And then in season two... We see Theo James's, if I'm recalling correctly, prosthetic dick in here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Right. Also the sort of recurring identity as a prison thing. Yeah. That's what I was thinking about when the dad was talking about his grandfather, his father. You know, he has been imprisoned by the requirement to have $10 million. Do you know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Including both rooms, like the fictional room. Yeah, right, right. The children also screamed. That's right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah, but it's also funny. It's like there's lots of ways for a story not to be the point, right? Like, for Rick to escape the past and the future means one thing to, you know, escape the way that he's been living under the curse of his father's murder. You know, which, like, Walton Goggins is pulling off this highly melodramatic storyline, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You're like, I'm locked in.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You're locked in as Goggins.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
But it's different for him versus like when they finally get to the boat. So a lot of this episode is they're preparing to get on the boat and they get on the boat. And once they're on the boat, the class of sort of white men from various places in North America or Australia who are just talking about how they've come here to hide money. From their ex-wives, hide money from the government.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Someone says a line about you're either here, you're running from something or looking for something.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Rick has a reason to transcend his past currently, and you see Timothy Ratliff considering this all the time. He has a very particular reason to transcend his past and start over and live in a sort of eternal return of the present.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
Yes. And, you know, I mean, the reason that we saw Dick is because Timothy has been taking too much lorazepam. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 4: “Hide or Seek” with Jason Isaacs and Sarah Catherine Hook
You know, it's like it's salvific for Walton Goggins and it is undeserved amnesty for Timothy Ratliff.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Death smoothie and rom-com, like, in the same 15 minutes. You can tell, though, like, after she comes back, she stops dressing like Wendy from Peter Pan and, like, puts on, like, a... Exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It's funny to hearing you talk about it. Right. It's like Lachlan he's, you know, these siblings have this idea of how the world should be approached. And Lachlan's like, yeah, Yeah, I'm going to go 200 times as hard on it as you have. And both Saxon and Piper are like, oh, actually, no, no, no, no, no. Like both of them immediately like, oh, they withdraw.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
It's like he's the stress test for their ideology and both crumble instantly. Like, actually, don't jack me off. Actually, don't move to the monastery. I'm good. We're good.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I wanted to ask about Mook and Guy Talk, who go from, you know, having this unbelievable sort of quiet intimacy and fondness. And they've known each other since they were kids. And, you know, you're really rooting for them. And then as their storyline develops, you're like, Mook's like, unless I see you kill someone, I will not even go to dinner with you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
You know, like, I'm unhappy sitting across from you unless you were showing me that you're fluent in masculine aggression, which is what I want, and you be the bodyguard, et cetera.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And Guy Talk, despite being horrible at his job all season, snags via a good shot at the end of the finale the prized position of Sreeta Love's bodyguard, and he's sort of, like, putting on the sunglasses and sort of compromising his sense of self, but he's got the girl. I wonder if you could talk about That storyline and whether you think, is he happy? Is she happy?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Are they going to stay together? I think they are happy. You do?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
You have to add another person watching to give you the mirror of yourself. Yeah, exactly. I'm wondering if there's stuff you can tell us that viewers wouldn't know, like things that came together last minute or things that didn't happen the way you originally planned that people might not know about yet but would want to know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
I wonder, can you tell us anything about season four? Scouting, themes floating around in your head?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Wait, you're going to do a G7 summit? Sorry, could you say more about that?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Well, thank you for talking to us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah, we had so much fun. Bring us to season four.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah, there you go. We'll see you there. See you there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Mike, thank you so much for talking to us today.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Yeah, it's like everyone gets scrambled. Like there are some people get their fortunes reversed completely. Some people like Belinda just ascend at the very last minute. Did you have a sense when you thought about putting Belinda back in, you were like, OK, like she's going to she's going to get hers at this season?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
And Tanya and someone else, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
Dave Burnad told the story about you being on a nebulizer when you were in Thailand early on, and the season materializing in your mind, almost fully formed from that nebulizer.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
At the beginning of the season, we're introduced to the Ratliffs. I wonder if you can talk more about that plot line and the sort of, like, Southern Gothic, you know, like, dynamic between the siblings and the parents. You know, there's a lot going on with that family. I wonder if you could just talk about that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
A Look Back at Season 3 with Mike White
A bit of an Austro-Hungarian royalty vibes, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He's doing his best. And then Lachlan's like, you know what? It's been a confusing week. I'm just going to make a smoothie with one scoop of protein powder, water, and this poison stuff.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He tells his dad that he thinks he just saw God, but what we see him see is four figures hovering above him in the daylight that he's trying to swim to through black water. And at first I thought it was the family, then it is the silhouettes of four monks.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
That's what I thought was going to happen. Yeah, that's what I thought too. I mean, the general sort of Oedipus-esque trajectory of the thing you fear the most is the thing that you cause.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
It was a good fake out of the of the Jason Isaacs being the pure tragedy. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But also, you know, we were talking about people passing tests in the last episode. It's like he, you know, arguably he passed the test. Like the second when he knocks the coconut milk out of Saxon's hand, he's actually saying I am stronger than I thought I was and I don't have to actually kill my family. Yeah. You know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, although when he's clutching Lachlan in his hands, he's like, oh, there are things more important than money, such as your child being alive. And I bought that. Like, I bought that. He felt that. And he was like, that would have been a worse loss than all of it. And here I was 12 hours ago thinking, actually, I would kill everyone.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
In fact, I would give everything to just have everyone be alive.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I know. I want to talk about the gal pals.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Well, how I thought it was actually going to work out was the way the dinner starts, which is they are far more distant than they were when they started the vacation. You know, like you can feel the sort of the vacation ennui of the very privileged, you know, sinking in where they're just like, this is done with, you know, like, let's get out of here. I'm tired from my vacation.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And you think it's what Jacqueline and Kate start snapping into, which is the beginning register, which is like, isn't this just the most fun we've ever had? Like, I have felt so good, ladies, when I'm with you. Like, I feel, I just feel at home. My heart is so full when I'm with you. And they're just fucking lying through their teeth.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
She's like, the garden has bloomed.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And it's like me hating my friends more than I've ever hated anyone. My garden has bloomed so much. And then Carrie Coon steals the show, of course, as always. But her monologue is so beautiful. It's so good. Her face is so amazing, the way she delivers that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Jacqueline says, like, my other friends dislike me because of superficial reasons, but you guys can dislike me because of profound ones, which I think is a beautiful thing to say about old friends. Yeah. But Lori breaks it all open.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Well, the part where Chelsea is like, get me a donut. And then when Rick gets the look in his eyes, it's like, I'm going to murder someone in 30 seconds if I can't talk to my therapist. And she's like, no, Rick, no. And eats the donut as she's running after him. Like that's that's she's still my girl. She's still my girl. She's still my overbite representation queen. I do think.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And by admitting how unhappy she is and has been with them, the girls end up, like, they transcend the sort of Hegelian dialectic that they've been in the entire time, where they're either being honest bitches or fake happy. And they're actually real happy. They're honestly happy with each other because one of them has admitted their profound unhappiness.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
They've already said them out loud. It's already been out in the open. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And there's, like, a nice, like, it's very sweet when they're kind of cuddled up on the, like, their whole physicality changes. Oh, yeah. Like, they've been all carrying themselves in such particular ways that correspond to the relative sort of self-consciousness and truth-telling versus not of every scene that the girls have.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But they're finally, like, they're collapsed into each other like children. And it's nice. It's nice to see.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And they did get to die together.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Together in eternity, as Chelsea knew. And throughout this episode, like, you know it's going to happen. Like, they have their peace too early. You know the wheel's going to turn again.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Like, the moment they have that, like, truly sweet thing over... breakfast where she's like, I think we're going to be together forever, don't you? And Rick's like, that's the plan. And it's the first time he's ever. And she has this profoundly sweet, like shocked, mutually gratified, like, wow, this is as real as I ever thought it was. And we're going to do this.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
We're going to be together forever. And you're like, yes, because Scott Glenn's going to kill both of you. He both is the father and the person that took away the father because he absented himself to take over Thailand or whatever. Right. And he basically reveals this to Walton Goggins in the restaurant, but Walton Goggins doesn't guess it at that moment. One doesn't know for sure. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I mean, Chelsea doesn't have any bad qualities. Like, I refuse to assign to that angel.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Now, let's really get into what matters.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. I mean, and I just really can't underscore enough. Why is Rick there the next morning?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
It's like the hugest plot hole, we must say, of like, oh, I tried to kill the guy that owns this hotel, but I'm just going to spend a nice, relaxing night, leisurely breakfast here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
She's a perfect person. Yes, she's credulous. But I'm not willing to say that she has any negative qualities. If I am to search myself for my most negative qualities, I'm probably a Jacqueline. Yeah. Like the self-interest, self-centeredness. Queen B. I wouldn't even describe myself as a queen. But, you know, the sort of behavior I'm feeling. I'm feeling a little Jacqueline. And who are you?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I feel like there's some sort of implicit blame being placed on Amrita here who's like, sorry, I really have to do this therapy session that this kid doesn't even want, you know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
You're presenting an acute mental crisis. You're shaking and sweating and on the brink of tears.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Like she could have been like, Zion, can you wait seven minutes? I just need to talk to this man that's on the brink of murder.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But then Chelsea comes running, you know, she's finished her donut and and she's and he's like, go away. I'm in snake mode.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
For me, I was giving OC, Ryan and Marissa. You guys know what I'm talking about?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He's kind of doing this death walk. He's not looking for help. Like, he knows she's dead. Like, that's not—he's staggering as slow as a person could ever walk.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. And then in the process, like Guy Tuck is having his own test of like, am I going to kill this man? Yeah. And choose the way of violence, and in doing so, get money and the girl, and be unhappy with myself forever, but have sunglasses and a black top, which signifies worldliness, which he does. I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Kind of tamping down, like he's hammering the nails on the box of his previous self-righted personality. He's like, well, Mook didn't like him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Right. It's like women are selfish. Men are violent in this season. Only Chelsea and Tim. Perhaps some of the girls transcend.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And now, Natasha Rothwell. Natasha, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk to us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Before we get into it, I must ask you, what would you do right now if someone direct deposited $5 million into your checking account?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Get a massage, perhaps from a nice therapist named Belinda or something like that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
What do you think that Belinda's doing with her hair?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
That's right. That's right. Right. You think because I had, you know, another question I had for you was like, is towards the end of this episode, you're like, oh, no, Belinda's becoming Tanya. Belinda is now Tanya. Yeah. But maybe she's actually Greg.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
You would have stayed in the sweet dinner moment.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
She's been she's been taking care of people professionally. Her son's finally in college, like he's on the NBA track. He's an incredible negotiator. Yeah, you can feel the blend is like, who am I? What is my personality actually even like when I'm not having to just take care of people like what I even want to do?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
You thought you were getting out of this. You're really getting it a different way now.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And it's like, is her dream actually to open a spa or was that just the grandest thing that was possible?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I think part of the reason that we jumped to the Tanya reading is because you get to be so funny in this episode, right? Like I was, you know, Belinda is such a caretaker. She's forced to be sweet, but you get that she is, she's a lovely, wonderful person who sincerely wants to connect and have these things.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But as a result, like so much of the comedy on the show is generated from people being huge assholes. And Belinda just never gets the chance to be a huge asshole. And it is incredibly fun to watch beginning with that negotiation scene where you think Belinda is walking out for real. And she's actually like, no, make him think I'm nuts. You know? Yeah. And I wonder if you could talk about that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
This episode, the last episode, XL-sized, is called Amor Fati. It's written and directed by Mike White. And later in this episode, we'll be talking to Natasha Rothwell, who has a real big moment.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
We all were like, what would we do if we got $5 million? We'd immediately stop working today.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Well, thank you, Natasha, for coming on the show. And we will see you guys for a bonus episode after this. The White Lotus Podcast is a production of HBO and Campside Media. This episode was hosted by Gia Tolentino and Josh Behrman. Natalia Winkleman is the managing producer. Our associate producers are Allison Haney, Anthony Piccillo, and Aaliyah Papes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. Unless you're Chelsea, who accepts that, you know, all we have is the here and now, and she gets fucking murdered by a security guard. Caught in the crossfire. I know. Poor Chelsea. Moog and Kai Talk, they do end up together.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I know. I know. We hate her now.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Hello and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Come on. Oh, yeah. She's red-billed. Yeah. She's fully red-billed. And by the end, she's like, she's, it's so the look of love snapping on and off in her eyes. And he's like, weakness? Ew. I know.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But she wants him to be the, she's like, oh, you murdered someone? Oh, you killed someone? It's very sad. But he gets the girl.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He's an incredible negotiator. The point is, is there enough money here for everyone to get their happy ending?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Say I'm crazy. Say I'm crazy. Yeah, exactly.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
That's really satisfying. And I will say, like, something that I – have quibbled with in White Lotus's past is that, like, by nature, I mean, it's built into the nature of the show that the non-white characters have to be the nice ones because they're the employees. And so they're forced into, like, a structural niceness.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
They're on the wrong side of the entitlement that generates all the comedy of the show, like, necessarily. And, you know, it sucks to see Belinda immediately Tanya Pornchai.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I'm fucking sad. It's a sad finale.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Like stuff has changed. I'm not going to go into this any further.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
She has like the look of sort of distant condescension in her eyes.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I think she plays, I think Natasha Rothwell plays this episode really wonderfully. Like I think she's funny in the negotiation scene. It's funnier when you realize she's faking. You love getting to see her be like, oh, I'm a rich bitch now. Mm-hmm. When that direct deposit hits, we were all like, can you just deposit that much money? Do checking accounts do that?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But it is nice to see her get out ahead. And I wanted this whole season to see her just be selfish, like to see her be like cunning and selfish. Because that's what every other character gets to do all the time. Although I guess in the case of Mook and Guy Talk, like Mook is being selfish and I hate it. I want her to love Guy Talk for who he is. But...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I'd like to make a toast to Thailand. And I just can't wait to get back home. But to Thailand, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Oh, sweetie, you don't have to prove anything. She wants to be absolved of that guilt. She wants to be absolved.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Oh, yeah. I mean, I found that conversation so painful and so funny. Her problem is now that she's too privileged and she needs someone to comfort herself out of being too privileged. But then Parker Posey's like giving the thumbs up over her shoulders. She's one of us after all. She's a fucking spoiled brat. Honey, we did it. She'll never be poor because she's afraid of it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Up till this point, she has looked like Wendy in Peter Pan, you know, and then now she's wearing color. Right. Like, she's been wearing white in every single episode, and now she's wearing, like, sequined blue.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I'm going to get my job at Sotheby's and, like, you know. Yeah. And marry just as rich as I ever have been.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
I got to kill everyone, yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Well, but he doesn't know yet. He asks Lachlan, and then he's like, okay, so I don't have to kill him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah, four smoothies it is.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
There's not like a gag at the end of the, like usually there's kind of a gag. Like you have Portia in her insane outfit, you know, like you've got Jake Lacey still being a dickhead or whatever. Like here it's fucking sad.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Because that's what the—like, sometimes stuff is just poisonous, Josh. That's nature.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But isn't there a lot of stuff that's just poisonous if you eat it wrong? You know what I mean? Like, aren't, like, apricot pits poisonous if you— That's true. That's a good point. I see your point, though.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
It's also, you know— We don't need to see it, but I'm like, look up the dosage, dog. You got to look up the dosage. Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Oh, he doesn't have the phone. You're right. You can't look up the dosage.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
He's ripping them all open. He's doing animal crossing. He's gathering all of his little fruits.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
We love you, too. Love you, too.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
They'd be shitting all night. Yeah. But this is like arguably a whole thing about how you shouldn't take so much Klonopin that you end up leaving the dregs of your death smoothie in your blender.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And he wakes up the next morning and he's like, he immediately looks at the blender. It's like he was relaxed enough the previous night that he was like, you know what? I guess I'm not killing my whole family and myself. I'll leave this dish for tomorrow. I'll clean up those dishes tomorrow.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
You know, there's that moment where Patrick Schwarzenegger comes down to the beach and tells Chelsea that he read the whole book, almost the whole book. And she's like, oh, amazing. And then she sees Rick and runs to him and they have that, you know, lens flare moment. And Patrick Schwarzenegger, like, he has a tear in his eye, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And he realizes for the first time that he's lonely. You know, he has realized that he's incredibly lonely. If he hadn't realized that he was so lonely, he would have had sex with Chloe in the last episode in front of Greg. You know, he's realized he wants someone to love him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
It's like the best we can get out of this character changing is like the realization that he's not, you know, American Psycho after all or whatever. He looks at Chloe, the female version of him, and is like, no.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
About life being a prison, about death being the eternal return and the release from suffering.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Whereas the first episode, he was like, that's all I want.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And he realizes, like, again, he's vulnerable after the Lachlan thing, but he has realized that he's soulless and no one will ever get close to him unless he has a soul. And I do remember thinking, like, what I want for him.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Do you remember when I said, like, I wanted for him this season to confront the unknowable other, to confront the sort of unassimilability of just another person right in front of you and how kind of terrifying and amazing that is. And he's never experienced that. And I wanted him to brush right up against it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
Yeah. And when you have our, you know, our faves from episode one, Chelsea and Rick, they were our self-identification characters and we knew they were doomed. But we hoped episode by episode that they would make it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And I thought he was doing it in the funny way when he accidentally had a threesome with his brother.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
But instead, he was doing it when he saw that Chelsea actually loved that something seemed so transactional. And actually, it was love, illogical love. And he wanted it. And we love that for him. The family interaction that precedes the death smoothie is when Saxon is like, worship me, but don't jack me off, bro. Lachlan's reading his tsunami book that is foreshadowing his near death.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep.8: “Amor Fati” with Natasha Rothwell
And he's like, I'm a pleaser. I come from a family of narcissists. And he clearly feels trapped by his family. And Saxon says, he's like, he says, no one's going to make you a man, okay? You got to do it yourself, which is like him talking to himself. You know, you're not talking to Lachlan at all.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
He's the truth teller.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
So he gets too high or so he says. They're at the snake show and he lets a bunch of snakes loose.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
So you would put your phone in the pouch?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I think he – well, I didn't read it as a noble motive. But I do think, you know, he was – it seems the episode is trying to make it really clear. He was in his therapy session saying that he has been caged in by circumstance more or less. And he feels misunderstood and he probably feels misperceived.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Kind of, yeah, right? Like he's clearly sick of everyone else's sort of – he seems like someone that wearies immediately of any stab at propriety. And he's just – he would prefer the truth of snake bites and chaos.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I mean, I need to quiet my mind. I would say that that is also a constant need in my own life. No, but I'm like, I'm coming here. I'm being like, my goals are external. I'm trying to do yoga twice a day. I'm trying to be on the beach and get a nice tan. Mostly I would just try to be reading and talking to no one and quieting my monkey mind in that sense.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And unfortunately, my personal identification with the Chelsea ended in their final scene where she's like, I will follow you into the next life.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And the next life and the next. And I was like, you will never catch me saying that to a man.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Well, there's something really sweet earlier in the episode. She's like, you know, like, I'm your soulmate. Like, I am your soulmate. And I really believe it from her. Like, she sees a hole in him that can be filled by her.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. With the snakes in this episode, with the preponderance of snakes that is sort of amassing in this season. We had the choker. Now we have the, you know, the pile of cobras that Rick unlocks out of their home. The Garden of Eden biblical stuff is getting more overt. The first episode, you had Saxon pick up a fruit. And Pam, Australian Pam, says, you know, this fruit can kill you.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, it could actually. It's very poisonous. We have everyone in paradise and then there's the snake figure. There is the presence of entropy and sin and like the freedom to unleash, you know, the way that it figures in the biblical story. It's like the presence of him causes Eve to eat the apple and causes just the entire world to turn off of its axis from there.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. There's something interesting, too, as a fellow person that grew up heavy within evangelical Christian indoctrination, where in the myth of the Garden of Eden, the snake tells Eve to eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and it's knowledge of the world that… destroys paradise, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And, you know, there are like very clear echoes here about Timothy would prefer oblivion, like the knowledge is poisonous to him. There's a way in which plenty of people here are trying to enter the zone of the lotus eaters and to lose the knowledge of the world and to exist in that as its own sort of constructed paradise. But, you know, the knowledge.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But I don't think I'd really be able to embrace the spiritual journey. I'd be just like, oh, my child's not here. I'm going to read.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And now we're so excited to talk to Walton Goggins, also known as Rick.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Thank you so much for having us on your show.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Okay, so we are loving your arc, and I wanted to ask you... Episode one, you seem like, Rick seems like one of the most closed off characters on the boat, coming in, chip on the shoulder, you know, chain smoking, opening the beer angrily.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But it's revealed like you're actually coming to Thailand in this profoundly vulnerable place, more so than almost anyone else in the cast. I agree. And can you talk about that?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
OK, so episode three, the title is The Meaning of Dreams, as always, written and directed by Mike White. I love the way this one started with the tsunami dream. Yeah, I thought it was gorgeous.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Can I ask you a burning question that Josh and I have had? Where in your mind did Rick and Chelsea meet?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Well, she also I liked how you saw how she's not entirely straightforward with either her family herself. She was like. a really intense dream. And I was like, well, you walked into a tsunami. Like, is that all?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Oh, we're rooting for Rick and Chelsea quite hard.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Goggins was locked in.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
We have to kind of paint a picture for the listener about just simply how much gold jewelry he was wearing and how jacked.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Pleated pants. Yeah, he looked great.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, he looked really good. We could talk about this for 10 minutes, but now we're going to talk to Amy Liu.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Amy Liu, thank you for coming on the HBO Companion Podcast. Josh and I are big Chelsea and Rick stans.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Okay, so first, so I wanted to ask you, we heard that you yourself are quite into astrology. And I wanted to ask, you know, how much of Chelsea is in you? How much of you is in Chelsea?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
She was like, it was dark. Our house was there. And I was like, and? And what else happened? So the tsunami being, at this point, the FBI is fully at Timothy's office.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
How do you know she's a Scorpio moon? Was that written in?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
You just knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You triangulated the birth time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
She profoundly thinks they are soulmates and is bringing all of that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. I mean, it's really beautiful. But I was wondering about your experience. You are the repository for that optimism in this show in many ways, right? Chelsea is the character that is carrying this sincerity and optimism that's such a necessary sort of tonal counterpart to the value systems and things that other characters are bringing. Yeah, I mean, was that fun to just get to be this...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
The ray of sunshine.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
So after this, Timothy has an extreme reaction, which is to, after resisting Pam's entreaties to give me your phones, he's suddenly like, you know what? Phones in the bag. Phones in the bag.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
How do you think Chelsea understood what Rick did?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Thank you so much for talking to us.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Thank you so much for talking to us. It's been lovely. Bye. Bye.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I think we do have to get a spinoff podcast where she reads everyone's charts. Everyone's charts in the cast.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah. Do you think that this is him standing there like – is this him standing there waiting to accept it and not fighting it? Or is it him running away from the tsunami?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
and producer Kenya Reyes. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah, but also trying to delay it because he doesn't even want to.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And he's dipping into those benzos. Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I mean, frankly, I would be too if I were him. If I was that man and the FBI was at my office, you better believe I would be taking Xanax and hiding my phone. I thought the moment was interesting when Saxon is – the phone moment of putting all the phones in the bag, it comes when someone from the office is calling Saxon. It's leaking. It's about to leak.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And he has this one-on-one father-son chat with Saxon.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
That is like full of pathos because you see how eager this – Overconfident, blustery son is to just— Just wants his father's advice and validation. And you kind of get a second of like, maybe you're actually not that good at your job either. You know what I mean? Like, oh, maybe you're a little—maybe you're slipping at work also, you know?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And you can tell it had been about 18 months since the last time, right?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
What else happens to the family? Lachlan goes for his posture corrective treatment where the perceptive posture man tells him, you're very defensive and you're protecting with your feminine side, which I adored. And Saxon is trying to tell him that he's got to get laid.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Saxon is, you know, one episode away from sleeping with Chloe, probably. I'm also getting a bit of fear that Saxon is going to try to make Lachlan have sex with Chloe in some way. He's like, Saxon is quite determined that his younger brother should return from this not a virgin. And there's not really, no one else is giving, you know, possibility other than Chloe.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I mean, that would be kind of iconic. She's really hot. Piper also, in this episode, she finally goes to the monastery to set up her meeting. And, you know, there was a part of me that was deeply relieved. I was like, girl, you've got to be lining that shit up months in advance. You're going to travel all the way here.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Hello, and welcome to the White Lotus official podcast companion to season three. I'm Gia Tolentino.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
She's going to set up the interview.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
You've got to set that up, yeah. Piper is the sort of designated aware one, right? She calls the White Lotus Malibu Disneyland for rich people. And she has styled herself as like, I'm aware of privilege. I'm aware of existence. I'm aware of all of these things. But then she waltzes into the monastery and she's like, hi, I'm here to I'm here to get everything I want.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
You know, and you see her out of the context of her family that she's still in many ways. And I say this as like an American that did the Peace Corps, like who knows from, you know, clueless foreigner walking in and being like, this actually belongs to me and my journey. She's not apart from that.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And later on, we're going to be talking to our favorite couple, Rick and Chelsea, Walton Goggins and Amy Lee Wood. Today, my question for you is, if you were a guest at the White Lotus, what would your sort of holistic goal be for the week? What kind of treatments would we be having?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And then they're all going to go party on Gary's boat.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Just because people are rich doesn't mean they're not trashy.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
A slow burn with porn giant.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Do you think that he recognized her?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But I have a question for you about Belinda. She's there for three months. I'm like, are you just going to be experiencing the spa for three months?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And receive treatments from hot guys for three months. Right. And then we've got our three gossiping girlies. We've got Jacqueline, Lori, and Kate. Episode one ends with two of them making fun of Lori, gossiping about her behind her back. Episode two ends with two of them talking about Jacqueline. And then this one, it's Kate's turn and the ringer.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
This was the part of the episode where I was like, I was cringing to the deepest core of my cells.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Yeah.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
I mean, I would truly not like to be on vacation with someone I considered a close friend that reveals that they voted for Trump. Like that would frankly stress me the fuck out.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
And you see exactly what the other two friends and they're like, I can't wait for her to go to bed so we can talk about this for three hours.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
They're all really good families. You know, like this recurring is like.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
They're nice people, really good families. And what people in the South mean when they say that is like they're rich and they keep their shit under wraps.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Like they're rich and they successfully repress any outer sign of disorder. That's literally all people mean.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
There's something interesting about while I don't doubt that Jacqueline and Laurie, you know, or whatever, variously sincere, progressive, liberal, however they consider themselves.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But it is something that I feel quite aware of in my everyday life where there are plenty of people in my orbit who think of liberal or progressive politics mostly as kind of a consumer identity who were really offended by Trump mostly as an aesthetic signal about like, like, this is just embarrassing. Like...
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
There's a way in which Kate having voted for Trump is on an equal plane in terms of moral and aesthetic importance as kind of not having a really good doctor for your Botox, right? Like they have the—they are appalled as if they are talking about a serious political topic, but there's a way in which it's sort of like, ooh, you know, you've made a lifestyle choice. You've made an aesthetic choice.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Right. And there was that part in the first episode where Laurie's like looking at you guys, it's like looking at a mirror. And there's something interesting about what this crew will not do, which is like probably they are all living extremely similar lives with extremely similar consumer choices, you know, etc. But the exact same life.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
If the person voted for Trump, that life will then be viewed as sort of like immoral and false.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But yet I'm sure those women are making quite similar choices about their children, their children's schooling, how much they fly on planes, whatever. You know, their degree of civic engagement. And that, you know, I don't know. I doubt a lot of that will reach the surface. But I was like, ooh, I can feel it.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
That they exactly make, yeah. So the themes really come out. The themes being the snake in the Garden of Paradise or whatever with Chelsea and Rick.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
But the snake show is also prompted by another meditation session.
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
His mask is the thing that it's masking. Like he's giving like broken man. And he is. You know what I mean?
The White Lotus Official Podcast
Ep. 3: “The Meaning of Dreams” with Walton Goggins and Aimee Lou Wood
Like he's the only one that's sullen on the boat and as such he's the only one telling the truth about existence.