Jeffrey Sachs
Appearances
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
If we decide we're the police, which we do, you can't imagine how cynical bullshit we use to justify our actions. We used the cynical bullshit that we're defending the people of Benghazi to bomb the hell out of Libya to kill Muammar Gaddafi. Why did we do that? Well, I'm kind of an expert on that region, and I can tell you maybe because Sarkozy didn't like Gaddafi.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
There's no much deeper reason except Hillary liked every bombing she could get her hands on. And Obama was kind of convinced. My Secretary of State says, go with it. So why don't we go with the NATO expedition? It had nothing to do with Libya. It unleashed 15 years of chaos, cheated the UN Security Council, because like everything else we've done, it was on false pretenses.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
We did the same with trying to overthrow Syria. We did the same with conspiring to overthrow Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine in February 2014. So the problem with this argument is we're not nice guys. We're not trying to save the world. We're not trying to make democracies. We had a committee, by the way, of all the luminaries you could mention, but they're the neocon crazies, but they're luminaries.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
The Committee for the People of Chechnya. Are you kidding? Do you think they even knew where Chechnya is or cared about Chechnya? But it was an opportunity to get at Russia, to weaken Russia, to support a jihadist movement inside Russia. This is a game. But it's a game that John has described better than anyone in the world. It's a game of power. It's not that we're defending real things.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
I think it's obvious. There's basically one deep state party. And that is the party of Cheney, Harris, Biden, Victoria Nuland, my colleague at Columbia University now. And Nuland is kind of the face of all of this because she has been in every administration for the last 30 years. She was in the Clinton administration wrecking our policies towards Russia in the 1990s.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
If you want to defend real things, go to the UN Security Council and convince others because the other countries are not crazy. And they don't want mayhem in the world. But we play games. So they say, that's a game, Iraq, which was obviously a game before we went in. Obviously, Colin Powell could not move his lips without lying that day. Obviously. And so they said, no.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
But if we're real about our interests, then you go to the UN Security Council. And then it's not just on us. It's actually then a collective security issue.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
David, could I just say, two-thirds right, perfect.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
I always give him an A minus. Oh, that's that great inflation? I just wanted to add a footnote, which is that China's also not a threat.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
China's a market. It's got great food, great culture, wonderful people, a civilization 10 times older than ours. It's not a threat.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Yeah, it would wreck California for one thing. it would destroy the economy that you guys are making completely. This economy has been the biggest beneficiary of China's rise probably in the whole world. So it's crazy. Maybe if you're worried, if you're really worried about whether a worker in Ohio has a particular job on a particular assembly line, then you can be anti-China.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
If you're worried about the tech industry, about California, about peace and the future, you should be pro-China. That's all.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Because John said it exactly right, and he predicted it better than anyone in the whole world in 2001. He said, when China becomes large, we're going to have conflict because that's John's theory. And it's right as a description of American foreign policy that we are for power. They are big. Therefore, they're an enemy. They're an enemy of our aspiration to global hegemony.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
She was in the Bush administration, junior, with Cheney. wrecking our policies towards NATO enlargement. She was in then the Obama administration as Hillary's spokesperson first and then making a coup in Ukraine in February 2014, not a great move, started a war. Then she was Biden's Under Secretary of State. Now that's both parties.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
It's not a bad way to say it, but I would put it in another way. I read a very good book, John's. And John described, I'm going to quote him, but he can quote himself afterwards. He said that the regional hegemons don't threaten each other, actually. Why? Because we have big ocean in between.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
deeply believe that China is not a threat to the United States, and I deeply believe the only threat to the United States, period, in the world, given the oceans, given our size, and given the military, is nuclear war. I deeply believe we're close to nuclear war because we have a mindset that leads us in that direction.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
It's a colossal mess, and she's been Cheney's advisor, she's been Biden's advisor, and makes perfect sense. This is the reality. We're trying to find out if there's another party. That's the big question.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
have a mindset that everything is a challenge for survival and that escalation is therefore always the right approach. My view is a little bit of prudence could save the whole planet. So why I don't like Ukraine is that I don't see any reason in the world that NATO has to be on Russia's border with Ukraine. I was as I said, Gorbachev's advisor and Yeltsin's advisor.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
And they wanted peace and they wanted cooperation. But whatever they wanted, they did not want the U.S. military on their border. So if we continued to push, as we did, we would get to war. John explained that better than anybody. We're now at war. And even this morning, there is further escalation.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Blinken has said, well, if the Iranians give these missiles, then we will give missiles to hit deep into Russia. This is a recipe. And then we had Bill Burns, the CIA director, say last week an absurdity that he knows, but CIA directors never tell the truth. If they do, they lose their job. But he said, don't worry about nuclear war. Don't worry about saber rattling.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
My advice to you is worry a lot about nuclear war. And so be prudent. You don't have to put the US military on Russia's border. And my advice to Russia and to Mexico when I'm going to Mexico tomorrow, I'll give them a piece of advice. Don't let China or Russia build a military base on the Rio Grande. Not a good idea for Mexico. Not a good idea for Ukraine. Not a good idea for Russia.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Not a good idea for China. Not a good idea for the United States. We need to stay a little bit away from each other so that we don't have a nuclear war. By the way, I do recommend another good book, and that is Annie Jacobson's Nuclear War, A Scenario. It takes two hours to read. The world ends in two hours in the book. And it's a very persuasive book.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
a guide that one nuke can ruin your whole day, as they say. Jeffrey, can I... My strong advice on this, therefore, is recognize China, first of all, is not a threat to the United States' security. Big oceans, big nuclear deterrent, and so forth. Second, we don't have to be in China's face. What do I mean by that? We don't have to provoke World War III over Taiwan.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
That's a long, complicated issue, but this would be the stupidest thing for my grandchildren to die for imaginable. And I resent it every day when we play that game. We have three agreements with China that say we're going to stay out of that, and we should. And then China would have no reason for war either.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
China, and then on the economic side, let me just reiterate, because I was asked yesterday and there was some surprise, was it good to let China into the WTO? I said, of course. It enriched all of you, by the way. It enriched me. It enriched this country. It enriched the world, including enriching China. That's normal. Economics is not a zero-sum game. We all agree on that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
I believe that security doesn't have to be a zero sum game either. We can stay a little bit away from each other. And China does not spend its time bemoaning America being a Western hemisphere hegemon. They don't. That's not their greatest interest to bring down American power in the Western hemisphere.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Hold on. Let's let John respond to this.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Then they behave like us.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
It's not my great fear. They have no interest in doing so because they don't want to get blown up either.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
I'm sorry, say it again.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Doesn't have military bases there.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
I'm all in favor of that. Let's go compete that way. I'm all in favor of that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Yeah, if you try to prevent them from being a regional hegemon, we're going to end up in World War III because, as you say yourself, that this can absolutely spill over into war. I don't want it to spill over into war on the theory. that maybe someday they behave differently. That's not a good theory for me, that part.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Okay, let's think of this from an engineering point of view, if we could. Why are the Chinese developing the Navy? Because for 40 years, I've read essays on all of the choke points in China. The South China Sea, the East China Sea, the Indian Ocean against China. That's our policy. Choke points. Look at the Malacca Straits. Look what we can do here. First island chain. This is American strategy.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Can we keep the Chinese submarines out of the Pacific Ocean? First China, first island chain, and so forth. So, of course, they react. They're rich, they're going to build a navy so that they can get their oil on which their economy runs.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Can we be a little bit sensible with them and decide how we're not going to have choke points and then we don't have to have a nuclear war, which is really going to ruin our day? That's the point. We can think a little bit. We can understand it from their perspective. We can understand it from our perspective. Deconfliction. By the way, I don't believe India is an ally. India is a superpower.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
India is going to have its own very distinctive interests, thank you. It's not going to be an ally of the United States. I happen to like India enormously and admire their policies. But the idea that India is going to ally with the United States against China, in somebody's dream.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
in Washington because it's another delusion in Washington because they should get a passport and go see the world and understand something.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
These are my failed students in Washington right now, because they didn't listen to their professor.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
OK, first of all, Invite me back 10 years and we'll see how smart all these decisions are. Xi Jinping? No, I'm talking about, yes, we've moved to India. That's our great ally. And then we're going to have other issues. And Vietnam. Okay. I think you said that Xi Jinping's trade policy is self-imploding or something.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
No, it's not. Let me explain what the wounds are. Okay. The wounds are the United States' deliberate policy to stop you from selling things to China and to stop China buying things from you. That's not self-inflicted wounds. Oh, no, you're wrong here. You're wrong here. Wait a minute. Just to say, let me say, please, because it's very important for the economy of the people in this room.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
This is a decision that was taken around 2014 to contain China. And it's been systematically applied since then. And it's not a surprise that Biden kept all the things that Trump did and added more. And now Trump says, I'm going to do all the things that Biden has kept in place and I'm going to do more. This is not a self-inflicted wound. The United States has closed the market to China, okay?
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Is that smart? No, it's not smart. Is it leading to, is it, by the way, recuperating American manufacturing jobs? Zero. It may shift them a bit. It may make things less efficient. It may make all of you lose a bit more money or not make as much money. But is it going to solve any single economic problem in the United States? No way.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Yes, I know.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
The reason is you've described a world. You've described, I think, better than any person I ever read or know how American foreign policy works. I think it's likely to get us all blown up. You title, not because of John, but because he's made an accurate description of a profoundly misguided approach, which is power-seeking.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
He is known as one of the world's leading experts on economic development. One of the most famous political scientists in history. We're talking about moral and political principles here. I would suggest that all four wars could be ended quickly.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Even if you're safe as a regional hegemon, you're never safe if another regional hegemon does what you do. No, you can't allow that to happen, so you have to meddle every single place in the world. Now, all I'm saying, let me just finish, because it's important. It is important to say, try this in the nuclear age. You don't get a second chance.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
So this, to me, is the most definitive fact of our lives, which is we are now in a war, direct war, direct war, not proxy war, direct war with Russia, which has 6,000 nuclear warheads.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
I can't think of anything more imbecilic than that, aside from the fact that I know step by step, because I saw it with my own eyes, how we got into that mess because we thought we had to meddle up to including putting NATO into Georgia in the caucuses of all places. and Ukraine. So we made that because we have to meddle because we couldn't let good enough stand.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
If we do the same with China, there will be a war, but it's not like reading about the Crimean War or World War I or World War II. That's my difference. This is a fine theory that explains a lot of things, but damn if you can make chat GPT or you can make Optimus or you can make all the rest, we can avoid nuclear war. So just do a little bit better than saying it's inevitable.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Can I start and have John have the last word? I work each day at the UN and discuss this issue with ambassadors from all over the world. There is, over the last 50 years, an agreement on what would make for peace. And the agreement is two states, maybe with a big wall between them, on the 4th of June 1967 borders with a state of Palestine
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
being the 194th UN member state and its capital in East Jerusalem and control over the Islamic holy sites. And that is international law. The International Court of Justice just reaffirmed that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal. The International Criminal Court
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
is likely to find, or ICJ is likely to find, that Israel is in violation of the 1948 Genocide Convention, which I very much believe it to be in violation. So my own solution to this is implement international law to states, build the wall as high as you need to build, but you give Palestinian rights, you establish a state of Palestine, you stop the Israeli slaughter,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
of Palestinians, you stop the Israeli apartheid state, and you have two states living side by side. Israel is dead set against that. The entire Israeli political governance now is dead set against that. Hundreds of thousands of illegal settlers in the West Bank are dead set against that. Smotrich, Ben-Gavir, Galant, Netanyahu are dead set against that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
So my view is it has nothing to do with what Israel wants. It has to do with enforcement of international law. So I want to see this imposed, not because Israel agrees to it, but because it is imposed. And there is one country that stands in the way of imposing this, not Iran, not the Saudis, not Egypt, not Russia, not China, not any country in the European union, one country in one country alone.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
And that is because of the United States of America and the Israel lobby. Somebody wrote a very good book about that too that I know, the best book ever written about it by John. And that's what stops the solution that could bring peace.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
And I believe we should bring peace because not only would that bring peace to the Palestinians and peace to the Israelis, but it would avoid potentially another flashpoint that could easily end up in World War III.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
There's a very interesting interview of Putin in Figaro in 2017. And he says, I've dealt with three presidents now. They come into office with some ideas even. But then the men in the dark suits and the blue ties, and then he says, I wear red ties, but they wear blue ties. They come in and explain the way the world really is. And there go the ideas. And I think that's Putin's experience.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
That's our experience. That's my experience, which is that there's a deeply entrained foreign policy. It has been in place in my interpretation for many decades, but arguably a variant of it has been in place since 1992. I got to watch some of it early on because I was an advisor to Gorbachev and I was an advisor to Yeltsin.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
And so I saw early makings of this, though I didn't fully understand it except in retrospect. But that policy has been mostly in place pretty consistently for 30 years, and it didn't really matter whether it was Bush Sr., whether it was Clinton, whether it was Bush Jr., whether it was Obama, whether it was Trump. After all, who did Trump hire? He hired John Bolton. Well, pretty deep state.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
That was the end of it. They told, you know, he explained, this is the way it is. And by the way, Bolton explained also in his memoirs When Trump didn't agree, we figured out ways to trick him, basically.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
You know, if I were lucky to sit next to the world's greatest political... philosopher, which I am, he'd give you a good answer, which is the right answer, which is if you want to interpret American foreign policy, it is to maximize power. And John gives an explanation of that. We have some differences, but I think it's a very good description of American
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
foreign policy, which is that it's trying to maximize global power, essentially, to be global hegemon. I think it could get us all killed. This is because it's a little bit delusional in my mind. But not his interpretation of their idea, but the fact that they hold that idea is a little weird to me. But in any event, that's the idea. And every time a decision comes inside that I've seen
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
If we are anything as a world community, we have to implement what we've said.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
I'm an economist, so I don't see the security decisions the same way, but every decision that I've seen always leans in the same direction for the last 30 years, which is power as the central objective. So Clinton faced an internal cabinet, really, debate should NATO be enlarged. This is a post-Cold War phenomenon? Well, I'll let John take that.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Let me step in for one moment. Okay, sure. Very quickly.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
What an irony. Let me disagree just a bit because we agree actually on the behavior and I've learned I'd say most of that from you, that it's power-seeking. Truly, John, in my work 40 years overseas, I don't think the U.S. government gives a damn about these other places. I don't think they really care if it's a liberal democracy, if it's a dictatorship. They want the right of ways.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
They want the military bases. They want the state to be in support of the United States. They want NATO enlargement. I know you've written, and there are some who believe in state building. God, if they do, they are so incompetent, it's unbelievable. But... Professor Sachs... I'll give you an example, if I could. Just one example. I'm a friend with one of the only Ph.D.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Afghani economists, senior person in the U.S.,
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
academia over the last thirty years you would think that this state department if they were interested in state building would ask him one day one moment something about afghanistan never happened never happened not even one question never happened he asked me can you get me a a meeting with the state department they were completely uninterested this is this is about power
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
You're too idealistic, John. They don't care about the other places. They may feel we should be whatever we want, free and so forth. But freedom, I've seen with my own eyes the coups, the overthrows, the presidents, Democratic presidents led away. They don't care at all. This is Washington. Be a realist. Come on.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
Could I come in here? Could I clarify a few things? Yeah, yeah. Look, first of all, almost all the time that we intervene, it's because we view this as a power situation for the US. So whether it's Ukraine or Syria or Libya or other places, even if we define it as defending something, believe me, it's not about defending something. It's about a perception of US power and U.S.
All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg
John Mearsheimer and Jeffrey Sachs | All-In Summit 2024
interest, and it's in objectives of U.S. global hegemony. And if we analyze the Ukraine conflict just even a little bit below the surface, this is not a conflict about Putin invading Ukraine. This is something a lot different that has to do with American power projection into the former Soviet Union. So it's completely different.