The Tucker Carlson Show
Jeffrey Sachs: Tulsi Gabbard’s Confirmation, and the Dangerous Global Chess Game Trump Is Winning
Tue, 18 Feb 2025
Can Donald Trump actually end the Ukraine war? Jeffrey Sachs thinks he can. (00:00) Jeffrey Sachs’ Story on How He Met Viktor Orban (02:55) Bill Clinton’s Shadowy Deep State Project (11:05) The Three Most Important Things Donald Trump Has Done So Far (14:55) Why Can’t We Have Rational Conversations Anymore? (23:55) The Global Chess Game of American Dominance Paid partnerships with: ExpressVPN: Get 4 extra months free at https://ExpressVPN.com/Tucker PureTalk: Get an iPhone 14 or Samsung Galaxy for $0 https://PureTalk.com/Tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who is Jeffrey Sachs and what is his connection with Viktor Orban?
Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to introduce someone who I consider one of the smartest people I know and whose understanding of the world is matched only by his ability to synthesize huge themes and illustrate them with precise detail. Someone who's traveled the world for 40 years, a man who not only writes about leaders of the world, but knows them personally, Professor Jeffrey Sachs.
Thank you very much, Jeff. Thank you. So how long, you were telling me backstage, I didn't realize this, for those who enjoyed Prime Minister Orban, I'm one of them. Tell us when you first met the Prime Minister.
We met 46 years ago, 36 years ago, sorry, 36 years ago, 1989. He was just getting out of jail at that point. No, yeah, they were just opening up and this young guy was starting a political party. And he gave me a call and we sat in our my backyard and in Boston for a few hours. And I thought, OK, this guy is going to be prime minister for most of the next 36 years. It's very, very impressive.
Very impressive now. So you said that you saw in him and it's not just about him, but it's about what are the markers of enduring leadership? What makes this politician impressive while most of them are not impressive? What did you see in him? What do you see in leaders like him who have been successful?
This was 1989. It was even before the Berlin Wall fell, but Hungary had cut the barbed wire. So people were that was the beginning of the end in 1989 of the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. And this young guy said, I'm going to make a political party, and I'm going to be a leader, and I'm going to make a new Hungary. And what he showed was vision that, look, we're a great country.
We've been held back for the last 45 years. I'm going to help lead the way. And it was Fidesz, Young Democrats, I think was the translation of it. And he just had the idea, we're going to move forward. He was a kid. And we were all kids then. And you could see that there was energy, vision, foresight. And it proved right.
Yeah. And a toughness. So you heard his analysis, I think, of where we are with the war in Ukraine, election of Trump on the basis in part of his promise to to try to end this if he can.
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Chapter 2: What was Bill Clinton's role in the NATO expansion?
you saw the new secretary of defense say no we're not going to support ukraine's entry into nato where are we now you know yesterday was the most important day for peace in maybe decades actually this war in ukraine resulted from a very bad idea of the United States taken in 1994. It's a project. The project was a project to expand NATO Forever. Anywhere. Just keep moving east.
Keep moving not only to the first wave, which was the prime minister's country, Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia, but then move eastward, closer to the former Soviet Union, into the former Soviet Union, surround Russia. in the Black Sea region, go all the way to a little country in the South Caucasus, Georgia. It was mind-boggling. Clinton signed on to that in 1994.
It became what we call the Deep State Project, meaning it didn't really matter who the president was. Each president would come and basically would be informed, NATO's moving eastward, you're part of that process. So Clinton started it in 1994.
And as Prime Minister Orban said, he mentioned briefly, in 1990, on February 9th, 1990, in unequivocal, clear as can be terms, the United States had said to President Mikhail Gorbachev, NATO will not move one inch eastward. And if you have any doubt about it, all the documents are now online, available. You can scrutinize everything.
Hans-Dietrich Genscher, the German foreign minister, said the same thing same day. He's on tape actually explaining, no, no, I don't just mean within Eastern Germany. I mean anywhere to the east. being Clinton, and the US deep state being the US deep state, started this project in 1994. They already had the idea, by the way, in 1991, 92, as soon as the Soviet Union ended.
Aha, now we move, now we move eastward, now we control everything, now we are the sole superpower. So this has gone on for 30 years. And each president got into it under George Bush Jr. Seven more countries were added, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria and Romania in 2004. Then in 2007,
President Putin said at the summit that's taking place right now, the Munich Security Summit, said, stop. You told us no expansion, not an eastward expansion, even an inch, you said. You've now done 10 countries. Stop. Perfectly reasonable. Stop. I don't think our president, Donald Trump, would much like to see China and Russia building their military bases up from Central America.
This was how the Russians saw this. Why are you coming to our border when you told us you weren't gonna move? And there was one other thing that was very important in this, which was probably the most decisive thing and almost not even recognized. The U.S. did something really, really, really destabilizing, and that is it unilaterally left the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.
That was a core strategy to stop a nuclear war between the two superpowers, because what ABM had done for 30 years was to say, we each have deterrents. If you strike us, we can strike back. We'll limit our anti-ballistic missiles so that both sides maintain deterrence. In 2002, the United States unilaterally, unprovoked, Walked out of ABM said, no, no, we're not gonna do it anymore.
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Chapter 3: How has Donald Trump influenced the Ukraine situation?
I don't know how many people here play or played in their childhood the game of risk. The game of risk was a big game for me. You wanted your piece on every part of the world map. That was the game. When you took over the whole world, world hegemony, we now call it, you won. They're playing that game. until this administration.
So the two most important, three important things have happened in my view in this administration so far. First, our new Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, told the fundamental truth. We are in a multipolar world. First time the sentence was uttered, he told the truth. What does it mean? The American mindset for 30 years was we run the show. Marco Rubio said, well, we don't run the show.
We live with other powerful countries. Great start. Second and third were the two events yesterday. So I'm feeling about peace that this is really something that happened yesterday. If they follow through, we know what Washington is like. There's every...
crazy idea swarming still a project of 30 years doesn't go down necessarily in one phone call or one statement by the secretary of defense but it's pretty important that it was said so publicly and so visibly and of course europe is in a tizzy Because Europe signed on to the U.S. project. All these politicians in Europe are there where they are because they were part of the U.S. project.
And now the U.S. is reversing its project. And you didn't tell us. What are we supposed to do? We're way out there. And so they're completely befuddled. And I have to say, I told them.
personally many of these leaders and i mean personally one by one for years you are going to get trapped this way because this project doesn't work it doesn't make sense it's a game for the americans but it's life and death for the russians so it cannot be won by the american side it's impossible and i tried to tell them and nobody in europe
either had the clarity or the guts to see it, except the person that preceded me in this seat, Prime Minister Orban, because he was completely clear about this from the first day. Now others are starting, but even till today, the Europeans can't get it because they're so deeply invested in something that makes no sense. They should have said, Russia's big. It lives near us. Let's cooperate.
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Chapter 4: Why are rational conversations in foreign policy challenging?
I hated this for the next 30 years, I have to tell you, because we just could not take yes for an answer. A couple of months ago, someone sent me from the archives, the first time that I'd ever seen it, the National Security Council minutes rejecting the proposal. Fascinating to read, because that's your life before your eyes, watching this.
There was a guy named Dick Darman who was a former colleague of mine. The technical term, I don't think I can say it in mixed company, actually. So I won't say what I would say about him. But it's an unpleasant English word. It's really nasty. Too nasty for polite company. He says in this thing, we should do the minimum job. necessary so that there's not a collapse but nothing more.
And he quotes Machiavelli and we're not interested and we're not gonna do this. And it's really watching stupid people taking important stupid decisions, fools. By the way, they never called to say, can we discuss stabilization? This guy knew nothing. They don't understand anything. They don't care. So what were they doing? They actually reached a conclusion at the end of the meeting.
We're going to do the minimum possible. I mean, minimum, minimum. It's not our business to help. We're not going to do any of that. That's arrogance of power. We don't have to do anything. Why? We're the United States. We don't have to do anything. They didn't even... Look, the stakes for the world were very high. You could have a 30-minute phone call to understand financial stabilization.
You could say, in history, when countries are destabilized this way, here's how stability has worked. That was my specialty. That's what I knew and taught at Harvard and knew a lot about. But they're so arrogant. That it's not even to discuss for a half an hour any of this. And they didn't. And they took a terrible decision.
And by the way, my point is not that that led on to this and this and this. No. They took terrible decisions for the next 35 years. This could have been stopped at any moment. Not one thing led to the next thing, no. One stupid decision, then the next one, then the next one, then the next one. You have to learn to behave. The way you behave in this world is mutual respect.
The way you behave is thinking you're not gonna be more secure if they're completely destabilized. That's what you have to understand. And that is not so hard to understand. We teach it to our kids. At age four, we start teaching that. And then suddenly, if you want your passport to Washington, you have to forget it at age 40 or something. And that's how they behave.
So that's my feeling about this, that it's just a kind of arrogance. And you can see it in this writing, which I find fascinating to go back and watch this tragedy unfold. 1997, another wonderful moment if you want to just watch hubris and tragedy. Very good book. Good in that it's insightful. terrible book in that it's all wrong, by Zbigniew Brzezinski.
And many of you have probably read it, called The Grand Chessboard. And he could have called it The Game of Risk. It would have been a little bit more accurate. But it was about how to make American dominance in the world. And he has a chapter about expanding NATO to Ukraine. Exactly that. And he talks about Europe and NATO expanding eastward.
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Chapter 5: What are the implications of the global chess game on American dominance?
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