James Petrigallo
Appearances
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Median household income here, though, is only thirty nine thousand five hundred sixty nine dollars a year. Oh, which is about thirty thousand less than the national average. It's not good. And the cost of living, though, one hundred is regular average. Here it is. Seventy one. It's a lower housing here, though, is the lowest one of all of everything.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's one of the bone thugs, guys. The bone thugs is behind us, too. See? Look at that. We're doing great.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's why you don't know his name, because he doesn't have a lot of parts. But when they're in there, you notice them.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The median home cost here is one hundred and forty thousand eight hundred dollars median average. Still too high. It seems high, yeah, from not making any money. But if we've convinced you, you know what? I'm going to West Virginia. If you have just John Denver just bouncing around in your head over and over and you need it. Gotta get it, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Thank you so much, everybody. From the bottom of our hearts, we cannot thank you enough for all that you do for us. We just really, really appreciate you. Thanks for everything, and especially your money on Patreon. That just... You keep the show at a place where we always can do what we want to do.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We're beholden to you guys. So that's what's great about this show and what we love about the show. And we hope that's what you love about it too. So keep hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media, shutupandgivememurder.com, drop down menu, take anywhere you want to go in the small town murder, your stupid opinions, crime and sports world.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That said, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We have for you the Princeton, West Virginia Real Estate Report. Average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $730 a month, which is $500 less than the national average. Yeah, very low. Here is a three-bedroom, one-bath, 1,000-square-foot house. All of the pictures are from a distance and from the outside, so that tells you a lot. No interior shots whatsoever. It is listed at $15,000.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Rocket Money found it and saved me lots of money since then because it's been a while. So they did a great job here. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending. and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But the listing says disregard listing price. Property will be sold at auction.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Cheaper. Property was sold at public auction ending Monday, February 17th at 6 p.m. And you do online bids only. So you can pick that house up for less than like a 10-year-old Toyota Corolla. Enjoy. Here is a four-bedroom, four-bath T-ball for each and every V-hole right here. 2296 square feet. It's a cool old house. Actually, this is it's very old. Really nice.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It has the listing says it has the old home charm, but with all the essential updates, they have all the original wood pocket doors entering the living room spaces and shit. Those doors that go into the walls. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people got rid of those back in the day, and they're kind of popular now because they're an old school feature.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
There's a lot of cool old features in this house. It's really nice. $295,000 for that. Okay. It's a big house, 2,300 square feet. Not bad. And then this house is goddamn awesome. Six bed, five bath, 6,600 square feet. Enormous. Holy cow. It's beautiful on one and a half acres. It's just a cool house. It's obviously haunted. Now, that's a separate issue. If you can live with the hauntings, fine.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, but it has a lot of it's kind of farty, like rooms will have old-timey wallpaper in them and stuff.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
All the original moldings around the ceilings are all there. There's a fucking library in this with a wall that's completely bookshelved.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's so cool. It's just a cool-ass house. The listing says, quote, it's your turn to own the Queen of Princeton, West Virginia. So this house is known as the Queen of Princeton, West Virginia.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
If you would like to be the Queen of Princeton, West Virginia, we have for you this house, $485,000. The best house in the entire county, $485,000. 6,000 square feet.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's beautiful, too. I'm telling you. If it was anywhere else, I'd be like, let's talk about this.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Big old nice property. It's fucking great. I mean, this is a great property. It's the queen, damn it. Things to do. Celebrate Princeton Festival. That's what it's called. Oh, yeah. This is just a shitload of performances by different people. And we'll get into all of them in the coveted 10 a.m. to 11 a.m. slot, which all the musicians love.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
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Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It is strings of green, green with an E. So it must be a guy named green. Uh, yeah, I assume our lady named green. I don't know. Then the 11 o'clock slot, you got the fluidity performance troop. I don't know what the hell they do. Um, at 1130 into the fog will perform.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Okay. Interesting. Um, one 30 Appalachian soul man, Aristotle Jones. It says we'll be there. Appalachian soul man. Yeah. Aristotle, named after a Greek philosopher.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow. 3.30, James Hart and Old Soul Reunion will be there. And then other ones that will just be popping up throughout the day. Lily Comer. Big fan of Lily Comer. James Hart, H-A-R-T.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Okay. Brett's brother. Miles Monique. It's Monique with a U instead of an O. Emma Shirey. And finally, of course, John Bolt will be there. You got to have John Bolt.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No. No E on that one. Just a bolt and a fucking... Yeah. A bolt and a piece of metal.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Fucking crazy. I don't think there's... Yeah, these are locals, I would imagine. Sure. From the area here. Also, all day, Ferris wheel, water slides, vendors, and other activities. Okay. That's great here. And they also have the Culture Fest World Music and Arts Festival in Princeton, West Virginia. They also have that. So I don't know what you want to do with that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And they have a workshop and healing arts section to that, which is a lot of yoga in the town square and things of that nature. So get on in there and do it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's something. You know what I mean? It's this or Applebee's. Jesus Christ. Or shirtless guys playing slots. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Otherwise, there's nothing else to do. Crime rate in this town. What we are interested in here, property crime almost double the national average. Oh, that's a lot. You guys really there's nobody here. Stop building. And they're all criminals should stop building fancy railroad stations. You don't need.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Jesus Christ. Or the drug rehab centers or something. Honestly, Jesus. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about 50% higher than the national average. It's dangerous as fuck. There's less than 6,000 people here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This should be a leave your doors open kind of town, and it is not at all leave your doors open. If you leave your doors open, you will wake up with your bed stolen out from under you, it sounds like. You'll wake up on the floor with your comforter and your pillow and your little sleep cap on going, what the hell happened?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Those criminals are good. Jesus, I didn't even hear it. So that said, let's talk about some murder here because this is deep, weird shit. All right, let's talk about a lady first. Mm-hmm. Mary Naomi Lewis. She's born in 1943. Mary Naomi. She goes by Naomi. Everyone calls her Naomi. The Mary, she's not interested in at all. Naomi's kind of a cooler name.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Mary, especially if you grew up in 1943, half the girls were named Mary.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Naomi sounds... She's like blonde.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
rocketmoney.com slash smalltownmurder. Now back to the show.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She's, like, blonde and curvy and sexy, too, everybody says. Like, she's, like, 5'1", but has a rack on her, everyone talks about. Like, literally, a guy described her as having a great, quote, a great rack. That's why I said that. It was later on. So that's the reason why it was put like that. Love that. Yeah. Shapely and attractive, the newspaper described her as. Yeah, that's not Mary.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No, that's a Naomi right there. She looked in the mirror and said, oh, I'm fucking Naomi. This is crazy. This ass is too smoking to be Mary here. So in 1972, she meets a man. Now, she seems to come from a half-decent background. Her father owns a business, I know, and has employees and stuff like that. So she's not from some – this isn't the wild and wonderful whites of West Virginia.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Put it that way. She's pretty classy, and later on we'll talk about another classy guy. But first we'll talk about a guy who's not classy at all. In 1972, she meets John Elmer Corprew Jr.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
John Elmer Jr. Yeah. I'm calling him John Elmer for the rest of the episode because... Elmer's. That's a good name. He's born in 1932, so he's about 11 years older than her. He is described as, quote, balding, middle-aged, and not particularly handsome. Wow, sounds like a great catch.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Ouch. Great catch there. And she finds him apparently irresistible.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Absolutely. She is working as his secretary. Okay. This guy, which is weird because the fact when we hear about his life, the fact that he has a secretary at any point in his life is insane to me. Mind-blowing, huh? Mind-blowing. It's good to be a man in 1972, I guess. I don't know. That's all it is because he's got nothing to offer, this guy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But he does have the fact that they've been continuously and enthusiastically in a sexual relationship since 1972 when she was his secretary at a frozen food business. Yeah, so that's how they met.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Man, nothing turns me on like fish sticks. That's the thing. That's all it is, man, I'm telling you. Those, oh boy, whatever potatoes there, the frozen, they drive me crazy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I got to stay out of the frozen food section, man. Just, I mean, tumescence all the way through it. I got to move on.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They're all shit. Except for like a Red Baron frozen pizza comes out wonderful. Outside of that, pieces of shit. There's a lot of things in there that are pretty good. All the pizza things are fine. Pizza rolls, great.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. Everything else, piles of shit.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Comes out like garbage. Unless you air fry it just right. Garbage. Yeah. So he's also a diabetic and has all sorts of physical problems. Really hot, right? Hot.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And she's loving it. And he puts all this on his military service. They said he injured himself in military service. And I don't know if he was in Korea. He was born in 32, so Korea would line up perfectly for him to be in any kind of combat situation. And I guess now he's on disability after the frozen food business. He ends up being... So he's a balding, middle-aged, diabetic...
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
who's not particularly handsome and is living on disability. Ouch. A catch. A real... That's a catch right there. How's he doing it? I don't know. Apparently, Naomi, as over the next few years that we'll talk about here, when she meets a man, she just keeps the relationship going with John Elmer here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Dude, this guy... That's amazing. I don't know if he... He must be really funny or something. I don't know what the fucking deal is, but... She gives him all sorts of money, everything from money to get his driveway paved to buy a boat. This man has a boat. I don't have a boat.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She's buying fucking floating vehicles.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This is crazy. Now, John Elmer's a high school graduate who did attend technical school. And he has to take medication daily for a nervous condition that he's been treated for at the VA hospital. So he also says he has to inject insulin daily because he's a diabetic as well. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That makes him feel so much better. So he's a balding, middle-aged, nervous-conditioned man who's not particularly handsome and living on disability. I'm adding up his stats.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow. And basically they would meet up regularly for sex on various points along Route 460, whatever motels, sometimes in the car. That's because a couple of years after they start hooking up, she gets married.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're, like, back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This week in Princeton, West Virginia, a brutal murder in a rural backyard at first seems like a robbery but soon develops into a horrifying conspiracy that is both cruel and completely idiotic. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And just never stops having sex with John Elmer. She just ignores the fact that she's married. Nice, right? This is good. She's married to David Cloud. Cloud, just like a cloud in the sky. Some people call him Dave, but most people call him DB for some reason.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, that's a middle initial is B. So DB, they call him. So DB Cloud. He's born in 1926. So almost 17 years older than her. And he's a real wealthy guy. Does real well for himself. She found stability with this guy. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about one of our favorites, SimpliSafe. Oh, SimpliSafe.com. S-I-M-P-L-I-S-A-F-E.com.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's absolutely correct. And if you're anything like us, the most important thing for you is probably protecting your family from harm. Right? I mean, nothing else matters if people are coming into your house and murdering your whole family and robbing your house. What's the difference?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's why us here at Small Town Murder, along with millions of other Americans, we trust SimpliSafe with our home security. It's great. Both our studios, our homes, everything that we have is protected with SimpliSafe because it is the best security you're going to get. You can install it incredibly. Now back to the show. Hey, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our stylish friends at Quince. That's right. Let's go elevate your styles, people. Get it going. Look good out there. And you can do it now without breaking your wallet, without breaking the bank. Because at Quince, you can get high-end, versatile pieces at prices we can all actually afford, which is very nice.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
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Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It looks good. And I've got the leather jacket. It's a very high-quality item. Real nice, soft leather. Jimmy's got his linen pants he's rocking.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
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Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He's the vice president and general manager of Carter Machinery Company, which is a Salem based company that has offices in West Virginia and like a headquarter, I guess, in Roanoke that he goes to sometimes, too. And basically she Naomi marries D.B. for a couple of months.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She puts the John Elmer relationship on the back burner and then just fires it right back up again like she's never got married.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She figured it out. She's in the local newspaper all the time, photographed at social events. She's like one of the queens of Princeton. I mean, she ends up owning a beauty parlor here. She's got her own shop. She's a business owner. Her husband's wealthy. They live in a nice house. They do much better than most of the people around here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they're kind of like local royalty, these people, is the way it works. Yeah. She is a member of the Downtown Merchants Association and all that shit. Very kind of stable. Exemplary, yeah. Yeah, they're just, I don't know how to put it, but they're civic leaders too and all that kind of shit. She also operates the Merle Norman Cosmetics franchise in the area.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So she got herself a cosmetics franchise as well. She operates that, and she's also active in a lot of social events and things like that. Everybody knows her from around here. I even found a newspaper article with her playing in some golf tournament.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It says there'll be 96 women golfers teeing off in the sixth annual Fincastle Women's Golf Championship tournament this morning on the Fincastle course. They're playing 36 holes.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's a lot. Yeah. So that's how that's going. But she's in the group here. So, I mean, I think that's one of the 1978, 79. So, I mean, I really think this is like a social thing, obviously. That's 96 richest women in town are going to go there.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
yeah i mean yeah nowadays you have people that are regular guys that go out and pay way too much money to do something they'll never get good at because they can't afford to get good at you have to be rich to get good at golf that's the problem right yeah yeah yeah yeah you have the most frustrating fucking thing on the planet it's crazy it's like hockey or something like you have to have ice time to be good at hockey so it's it's one of those things you need the ice you need the course it's you can't just practice at home
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So that's the setup here. Okay. That's everybody. She's got a great life with DB. They do all sorts of shit, you know, on the surface and that everybody sees and she's in the newspaper and all that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And then she goes and bangs the ugly middle-aged balding diabetic nervous, nervous issues who lives on disability room off of route 80 or whatever the fuck and gives her, it gives him like an envelope full of cash to get his roof fixed. You know what I mean? Like,
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This is really weird. So January 26th, 1980, we're going to start with, okay? Just before midnight, as the Rolling Stones once said here. Okay, they're out. They go to a party. It's a dinner party. This is what rich people do. Have you ever gone to a dinner party at the Sahara Club?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Thank you, folks, so much for joining us on another absolutely crazy episode of Small Town Murder. All I have to say is two words, West Virginia. That's where we are this week. You know it's crazy. We'll put it that way. There we go. We'll get to that. First of all, very quickly, shut up and give me murder dot com. Get your tickets for live shows this year. February 7th, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I went and ate at someone's house a couple of times. Wouldn't call it a dinner party, but, you know.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. They went to a dinner party at the Sahara Club in Bluefield, which is about 12 miles from where they live. And they have a great night, such a great night. And when they get home just before midnight. He is still holding a glass of booze from the event. He brought a glass home with him. He brought a roadie. He pocketed it, man. Not even like a little bottle, a full glass.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Fucking tink, tink, tink. Ice tinking around in there as they go over bumps and shit. So they're returning from this. I assume, you know, a little intoxicated, the two of them. It's obviously dark in the yard, which is weird because they have floodlights that usually are motion censored. So they're like, why the fuck aren't the lights coming on? This is stupid.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they go around to the back door, which I guess is how they usually enter. Everybody's got a different way they get in their house.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Some people front door. Some people it's a side door.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. My mother and stepfather, I don't think they opened their door for like 12 years. It was all garage access.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh, it's wild. Yeah. It just disintegrates in your hand. So they're just about he's got a glass in one hand, his keys in the other. And he's just about to put the key in the lock to open up the door. When out of nowhere, a masked man, according to Naomi, a masked man toting a 12 gauge shotgun jumps out from the shadows.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And demands money from Dave. Give me all your money. Weird place for a robbery. Weird place to get stuck up in your backyard. It's not even like in town. This is like rural outside of town. So unexpected. Before Dave can do anything, he's standing there with a fucking scotch in one hand and a goddamn, he's got a single malt in one hand and a house key in the other. He's standing there.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This guy from point blank range just blasts him in the face with the 12 gauge.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
taking a lot of his head with it as you can imagine yeah that's that's brutal I mean right in the face from from you know from me to you from right now you know what I mean four feet away that's fucking insane okay I guess this was just obviously loud there is spatter and brain matter and skull all over the fucking house all over Naomi who was right next to him when this happened this man after that
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
shoots him and then just runs out takes off through the takes off runs into the front got no money got didn't rob him ever that's the thing they didn't so that's really weird later on they'll find out he's got 150 in his pocket which is 1980 150 cash it's a good amount of money it's a good haul didn't take anything though and very strange give me all your money boom fuck it i'm running
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Real weird. It's not like Dave went for the gun or said, fuck you, and threw the drink at him or anything like that. He just turned like, huh? You're buzzed. He's been at a cocktail party. He's still got a drink. What's going on now? Boom. That's all it was. Now, this is obviously insane. Cause of death is massive head loss, basically. I mean, yeah. Half your head's missing.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You are on deck. Get in there the next night in Columbus. Sold out already. So no tickets for that. Thank you, Columbus, for selling that out. You guys are great. Yeah. Wow. Already. That was so it's crazy. So thank you so much, everybody, for doing that. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Get your tickets today for all the twenty twenty five live shows. Also, get yourself Patreon.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Do I need to go into any more autopsy details? I mean, it's horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's kind of what it is here. Yeah. A good portion of his head is all over the side of the house now and all over the lawn. So at this moment, obviously, Naomi calls 911. She's left unscathed minus some extra viscera covering her. She calls 911. Cops, ambulance, everybody gets there. It's a crazy scene. The whole neighborhood is cordoned off, everything like that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Now, when they canvas for witnesses, witnesses say they find multiple different witnesses, not just from the same household, that say they saw two men cruising in this neighborhood multiple times that night that don't live there.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Driving around. But the same guys in the same car multiple times cruising around the neighborhood. So they're like, that might be a place to start, obviously, because they don't belong here and they weren't stopping at anyone's house or anything like that. So the cops right away are a little bit suspicious of this whole situation.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
One, why would someone try to rob somebody, then shoot them and then not take the money and leave a living witness standing right next to them and not take her money either and even grab her purse on the way out? You know what I mean? Nothing. It's odd. It's odd.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, but also you might get a crackhead who got nervous and fucking pulled the trigger when he didn't mean to and then said, oh, shit, and ran away, and that happens too.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, holy shit. Yeah, oh, shit, I shot Marvin in the face. It'd be a Pulp Fiction moment, you know?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You hit a bump. I didn't hit no goddamn bump. So, yeah, they from the beginning, they said it just didn't make any sense. This is one of the county district attorney said it just didn't fit the mold. Why would he be sitting in their backyard waiting for them to come home, not knowing when they'd come home or who would be with them or not knowing what they were carrying?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He could have been coming home with his brand new gun he just got. He won in a raffle at the dinner party. You have no idea. Or he could have been coming home with his friend who's the chief of police. It wouldn't make any sense at all. Or they might have got home at 3 in the morning. Is this guy going to take a nap back there?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You never know. That's the other thing. Who the hell knows here? So they said Naomi, though, definitely appeared genuinely traumatized after this. They said, which anybody should be unless they're a really sick fuck. They would be traumatized by wearing a lot of their husband's brain matter on their fucking head. They said she had never seen this type of thing before.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And, yeah, she was described as grief-stricken. People said she was hysterical at times. And everybody said it was very normal distress. Because right away you look at the spouse. If you're at all suspicious of the whole thing, you look at the spouse first and look at her reaction. And if she's going, oh, boy, that sucks. Yeah. And shrugging her shoulders, you're like, that's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You want to see some tears, some horror, some shaking.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Something. Give me something here. So, yeah, they said that it was obviously horrible. So her family and friends rallied around her and things like that. They asked where she was standing and she said standing right beside him. So, I mean, while she was sobbing and everything else. So following this, they have the report of two men in a car driving around, and that's pretty much all they have.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They got nothing else. I mean, it's a shotgun pellet, so there's no way to trace anything there. You just have a dead guy and a woman who says, I don't know, it was dark. I had a mask on, asked for money, shot him, and ran away. I have no fucking idea. So we're at an impasse.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's 1980, January 1980. Yikes. Physical evidence is going to be scarce. Yeah, you better see the motherfucker do it if you want anybody to get in trouble. So this leads to a nine-month investigation. And David Cloud has adult children. This is his second marriage, obviously. He married a younger, attractive woman the second time here and had some kids from the first marriage.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So all of his kids are like, what the fuck here? You know what I mean? How can you not solve this in nine months? They put up a reward and everything like that. So they said, the investigators, they pieced together other things here. They got to piece together these two, David's life, DB's life.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
and Naomi's life because that's the wife piece it all together and they started noticing that the marital circumstances weren't exactly like she was saying and everything everything wasn't what it looked like from the outside which is the most upstanding couple in town and everything's you know hunky-dory and they find out except for the fact that she's been banging this other guy for years so there's that and they find out about it absolutely dig into somebody's shit enough you're gonna find out who they're having sex with and
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And they also said $150 remained in his wallet, which was in his pocket. Not a robbery. So they said that was weird. And they said the fact that she was completely unscathed. Is odd also who kills one person and not two. So after a while, they keep going over everything. All of Dave's, all of DB's office shit, just anyone he could have encountered that could have pissed him.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He could have pissed off or someone would have thought he had a lot of something that they could steal or something like that. So they found John Elmer's name written on his daily calendar in his office.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So John Corprew written down on there. So basically they were going through his calendar talking to every single person in his Rolodex, in his calendar. Yeah. Anybody. Who knows? Can't hurt.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's just written on his calendar. So they didn't know. They're like, did they meet or was this just he just write it down because there was paper right there. Yeah. Or is he suspecting? So investigating John Elmer, they figure out that John and and Naomi have been having an affair here. And they find out that there's been marital problems between Naomi and D.B.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Do yourself a favor. Patreon P.A.T.R.E.O.N. dot com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. $5 a month or above, you get everything, hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before, new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small-town murder, and you get all of it for that low, low price. And this week is no different.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
that nobody knew about except for those two. And that's gotten to the point where D.B. had begun his own investigation. Into his wife's activities.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Especially her telephone calls. He had phone records pulled and he was investigating. So police learn that John Elmer Corprew's telephone and utilities were in Naomi's name, but not Naomi Cloud, Naomi Lewis. She put it in her maiden name.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's why they didn't find it at first.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She's paying his fucking electric bill, dude.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's not good. No. That looks bad. That looks bad. Even if you had nothing to do with anything, it just looks bad.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That is weird. That's absolutely weird. And they also figured out that as a result of David's death, Naomi receives not only some property that they had together, but also between $90,000 and $100,000 in insurance money, which is probably a half million dollars nowadays. So now they're like, okay, we have all of this. We have a weird setting and a weird murder that happened.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And we have all of these things, but these are all just like parts floating by themselves.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Exactly. There's a lot of pieces and a lot of dots not connected here. Someone needs to take a big crayon on that Denny's menu and make a fucking... Start drawing the star. Make the moons over Miami breakfast, you know?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Please. So they've got to put all this case together, and they come up with a guy through a tip, and we'll find out about this. But they make an arrest, actually, in the case. Oh. They find a guy who we've never heard of to this point. His name is George Ballard Guthrie II, so junior. Junior. Another junior.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
George Ballard Guthrie II. He's born 1951, so he's the youngest of this lot of fucking luminaries that we've been discussing here. Fascinating folks. He's described as a, quote, chronic misfit and self-described drug addict who lives in Roanoke, Virginia. So that's who we're dealing with here. A piece of shit here. So anyway, they hear that they need to talk to Guthrie.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they go to Virginia, the West Virginia officers and accompanied by Virginia officers as well. They search for Guthrie and find him about 925 p.m. one night at a garage where he was doing body work on a car. Oh, so the Virginia officers arrest him because it's Virginia and drove him some distance away to their headquarters in Salem, Virginia. Now, here's the thing.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Rather than taking him to the local Roanoke magistrate for whom they had gotten the fugitive warrant for to get him. Yeah. The magistrate was on call and they were aware that they would return to present Guthrie.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This week for crime and sports, we are going to talk a little bit about Kobe Bryant's problems back in Colorado. Yeah, we're going to talk about Kobe's Colorado problems from 2005 or whatever it was. We'll get into that. We'll read the whole the deposition and we'll try to figure out what went on there, basically, because it's a big cloudy thing that everybody nobody really knows what happened.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But the West Virginia trooper requested, hey, can we make a detour so I can question him before we go actually take him to the magistrate to do the proper legal things that we have to do because you have to bring him there. And then before you can take him to Virginia, that guy has to say, OK, he has to waive extradition. It's a whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So instead here, Guthrie was read his Miranda rights in the police car and then once again at police headquarters. The trip to the police station took approximately 20 minutes and they arrived at about 9.45 p.m. at the police station. Guthrie was taken into a small office and they said he appeared normal at the time.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Now, all of his friends and family who'd been around him said he definitely wasn't normal that day. He was visibly intoxicated, couldn't stand up properly, had red and droopy eyes, and was very shaky. Uh-oh. Doing great is what that says. Please work on my fenders is what that says. Go ahead and bang that den out for me.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He was doing body work, yeah. So the Virginia... He's got a wavy fender. Yeah, I would say so. He's going to go, it's perfect.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow. The Virginia policeman who was there, he left to get supplies to fingerprint and process Guthrie because apparently they didn't have fingerprinting supplies at the police station. Yeah. So the West Virginia officer began questioning him. He signed a written waiver and confessed by 1040. Wow. Confessed that he was the trigger man in this whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We'll get to that. We'll get to that. Okay. Now, that's what's going on here. He says, yes, it's me. I did it by 1040. That's over with. And he's taken before the magistrate in Roanoke, which they were supposed to do first. Okay. Okay. Now, his older brother, Guthrie's older brother, had driven from Roanoke to Salem Police Headquarters at the same time that Guthrie went.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He demanded to see his brothers, but they said that they would not interrupt the interrogation. You're not his attorney and he's not demanding it. So, no. So the brother was unable to speak to him until later on. So he was like, shit. Now, that same night, John Elmer. is arrested in Virginia as well, but he's taken directly to a magistrate without being questioned. So, here is the allegation.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They claim here that Naomi got her boyfriend, John Elmer, to hire this guy, Guthrie, to kill DB.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Well, it's West Virginia, which, like I said, very low prices now.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
1980 in West Virginia. You could buy a house for that there. I'm not even fucking kidding you. You could probably buy a $2,500 house considering there's a $10,000 house available right now. This is fucking 45 years ago. So you could probably get a house there. Now, they go and they also arrest Naomi here. They said, yeah, let's name got to arrest him here. So they end up with they do that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They go to arrest her. They say, you know, she received between 90 and 100 thousand dollars and she got all the benefits for this. So they indict her. But she never spends a night in jail. Okay, right when they indict her, they give her a bail of $50,000, which she immediately puts a property of hers up for, a building she owns, an apartment building she owns in Princeton.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So we'll read and find out what actually happened. Then for small town murder back by popular demand, we're going to do another Internet salad here. OK, which means anything that's going on on the Internet the day we record except politics. Yeah, everybody. We did it around the election. When all the news is politics, we're going to say here's all the news that isn't politics.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they let her leave. She doesn't have to stay in jail, which is wild. This is a murder conspiracy, and they're like, well, I mean, $50,000 is fine, right?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. She's a good salesman, by the way, from what I've heard, salesperson. And she moves in with another man now, a new boyfriend, Bernie Stanley, who used to work for her father, who she's known for years. And we don't have any idea. She might have been having a relationship with this whole time as well. Yeah. Bernie, we can't get him to say shit. So Bernie.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
John Elmer's in jail sitting there. He doesn't have bail money. OK. He's in jail. They arrested John Elmer. Yeah. They took him right to the magistrate. Remember, they didn't take the sidetrack. But this guy, I mean, she went immediately into moving in with this guy in Huntington. So I feel like this has been going on for quite a while.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, and she is, God knows how much other shit she's been getting into.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
At the pre-trial stuff for Guthrie, his pre-trial stuff comes up first, a full suppression hearing is heard now because he wants his confession suppressed.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's April 1981. His counsel moves to suppress his inculpatory statement because it was made after a delay in presentment to a magistrate. And they also said it wasn't voluntarily given because Guthrie was too intoxicated to knowingly waive his rights. Trial court ruled the confession admissible. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they said that the delay was not unreasonable or so lengthy that it justified the exclusion of the confession. It was like two hours from the time they got to the police station to the time that he saw the magistrates. They go, that two hours isn't long enough to make it whatever. So he found that Guthrie had been under the influence of speed and beer.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
but was not so severely intoxicated that he was without capacity to know what he was doing when he confessed. They're like, listen, what person roaming around West Virginia at 9.30 at night isn't under the influence of some speed or beer?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, he's obviously shit hammered. So then they get John Elmer Corpru in there.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So Guthrie is now clammed up, wants the confession tossed. He wants to say he's being framed is what he says. So they get Corpru and Corpru just absolutely spills his fucking guts like he has been wanting to go to a therapist for 20 years and finally got to.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And the sweetheart deal he gets, he did the right fucking thing here. So he said that the husband's death came up in a conversation in late summer 1979. It's about a six month thing that we built up to. He says, quote, we were seeing each other, calling each other on the telephone and going to various motels and staying a while there, having dinner and things like that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And we're going to have a great time with it. It's going to be a lot of fun. Patreon dot com slash crime and sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show. So there you go. Jimmy will mispronounce your name, even though we'd love to get it correct. So that's how that goes. Disclaimer time. Number one, we're comedians. This is a comedy show, but the murders are insanely real.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
OK, just having an affair, basically. He said the first time that the murder was mentioned was in a, quote, motel in Blacksburg. She said that she would like to get somebody to kill her husband. And I said, well, it startled me at first. And I said, you had better forget that. That's a serious thing. Like, listen, we're fucking in motels and you're paving my driveway and everything.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But, you know, murder? Come on.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's crazy. I got a pretty easy life right now. I'm fucking without effort or money. This is great. That's too serious of a relationship.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's it. Well, no, they said that they were going to get married, they talked about, her and John Elmer.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So he said it was not too long after that, a week or 10 days at a motel, I believe it was in Rich Creek, Virginia, she said she needed to find somebody to really get rid of him. This time, she really meant it. She asked me if I would help her, and then he told her he would, quote, ask around, which sounds like, I'll stall for a while while you still buy me shit and pay my phone bill.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
yeah and fuck me and hopefully you'll forget about this because that's same response you give a friend that's like i'm moving can you help me find somebody to sublet my apartment yeah yeah i'll see what's going on i'll put it on facebook or something i don't know so he also john elmer said they talked several times on the phone and she asked me each time had i contacted anybody this was she was not giving up yeah like this wasn't going away
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So I told her I had checked around about some pills that could cause him to have a heart attack or something. And we met and talked about that. This is not the original plan, a shotgun murder in the backyard. The original plan is maybe I get a hold of some drugs that we can, you know, whatever.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So John Elmer says, though, Naomi feared what they would find in an autopsy and said, what if they find it? Who are they going to blame it on? They're going to blame it on me. That's crazy. So she said, no good. Pills bad. Not going to happen. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No, no, but a masked man in the dark is a ghost, I guess they thought.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, and who has access to his food, shit like that. So he says, I was very much involved with her, and she, I guess, she used her body to influence me on that, he says. She used her body. Oh, that's fucking hilarious. She was buying me this and buying me that. She just said that we would go to Hawaii and places like that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
yeah this the the gender roles are real reversed here it's wild she also promised to marry him like she promised they were he would she would get him pregnant too yeah i swear the rest of my life yeah he said that db cloud worked occasionally in roanoke and after he contacted guthrie in november and discussed a price of twenty five hundred dollars With a $500 bonus, too, they said.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's the thing is nothing is embellished for comic effect or no silliness like that. These are absolutely meticulously researched murder stories that are insanely factual that we make jokes on. That's what happens. But you say, how the hell do you do that? Well, number one, we think it makes it a little more digestible. I don't know. Sure.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Maybe a bonus if you get it done here. And, you know, a signing bonus. You've got to have that. All murder. Good murderers need a signing bonus. Otherwise, they'll sign with somebody else. That's what happens. So they considered killing Cloud in Roanoke, but Corpru said that Guthrie didn't like that idea.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So John Elmer Corpru said that on the day of the murder, he and Naomi had several conversations. Quote, she had called and she said she thought tonight would be a good night to do it because they were going to dinner at some nightclub in Bluefield. He said they talked about how the murder would be done. It was decided that it would occur outside the Princeton home, which that's the other thing.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Because then they changed their mind at one point and decide to do it inside. He said, quote, she said she would leave the keys under the milk box. They still had a milk box. Look at that. Isn't that cute?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She said probably the best way to do it would be to unscrew the floodlights and wait for them to come home. And then he could commit the crime there. and for him to go into the house and ransack the house and wait upstairs for them, basically. Go in, ransack, I'll break off from him once we get in the house, you shoot him and take the fuck off. That's how it works.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Or you get your boy to shoot him.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They were definitely out. The lights were gone. One of them was broken, as we'll talk about. They found one of the floodlights smashed and broken. Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a very cool place, Thrive Market. Yes, we are both looking to get into the healthy swing this year.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The problem is I don't know what's in everything and I don't know if even I'm qualified to even read the labels to know if that's good or that's bad. There's chemicals and things and there's things floating around. I don't know what I'm doing out there. One of my favorite features, and I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, it's simple. You scan any item and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding these safe, healthy foods. For example, like I'm trying to get my protein intake up. Yeah. for energy. I'm always moving around. I need stuff.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And I love that you can filter their site by the high protein options. It's very cool. And you can personalize this portion and you can put filters on it and get ready. You should be ready for a junk free start to 2025. Get ready for it and head to thrive market.com slash small town murder and get 30% off your first order. plus a free $60 gift.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash smalltownmurder, thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January, it's a whole new slate. Clean. You bet. It is blank pages all the way around.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here. A little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to fade away by February, right after New Year's, think of therapy as an editorial partner. There you go. That's a good way to put it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The somberness of a lot of these, it makes me very uncomfortable, and it's hard to listen to stories like that. A little joke here and there, but when it's appropriate. See, what you don't do is you don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes. Yes, but? But we're not scumbags.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Helping you write new chapters and creating the story of your life that you should have, that you want to have. That's what it's all about.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The one you deserve. And we can't say enough about therapy. Yeah. We all have problems and we all have issues and none of us are above.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash SmallTownMurder.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about a big-time hero that we've just encountered. I'm a bread enthusiast. And with Hero Bread, you can focus on these health goals that you have, that we all have, trying to get ourselves better and still indulge in the luscious, wonderful, soft... Mmm, just so good. The fluffy goodness of bread that you love.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But guilt-free with the Hero Bread. That's the thing. You like enjoying a nutritious breakfast wrap, avocado toast, grilled cheese, maybe with some soup on a cold, rainy day. Maybe a family burger night. Well, their products are delicious and flavorful. And they have ultra-low net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and are high in fiber. Mmm. They're pretty delicious. I really like the Hawaiian rolls.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh. They're good, yeah. I got the Hawaiian rolls.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They're so, they're like, they still feel like buttery and stuff.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh, God, yeah. These are good for you. They're not bad at all. And the texture. This is the thing. I'm a nut with bread texture. I don't like different textures, but they have a really nice, good bread texture. It's delicious. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use the code smalltownmurder at checkout. That's the code smalltownmurder at h-e-r-o.co.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
OK, so Naomi called him again about 730 p.m. to tell him they were leaving the house to go to the dinner party. So, you know, you got a few hours here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said that Naomi contacted him before they went to the party. So that was then and that he said he took Guthrie to Princeton to wait for them to return to their home. With, you know, with the shotgun and everything. He said that he'd been to the house on several occasions and had no problems finding the house. He said, quote, it was getting a little after 11 then.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So I let him out at the gate at the back of the house. He took the gun and he went in the yard. I drove off approximately a block and a half, two blocks down to the next corner to the main drag. He said it was not too long, approximately 20 minutes to 12 or something like that, that I saw Naomi and Dave turn in on College Avenue where they lived.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's great the way it works. And the show works wonderfully. We think you'll love it. If you don't love it, then I don't know. Maybe true crime and comedy doesn't ever go together for you. But for the rest of people who really want to hear a crazy story about this, we got a wild one for you here. I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs, shall we, here?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It was not too many minutes that went by that George came back to get in the car and I had the door locked and he could not get in. Finally, I unlocked the door and he got in and we drove off like it was nothing going on. It was Saturday night. There was a lot of traffic and we just got back in the traffic and came back to Roanoke. He said he never heard the gunshot.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
There's some details that we'll get into that he left out there.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said he never heard the gunshot. He then said that they went to Roanoke, they went to a bar, and he gave Guthrie $40. Gas money. $40 he gave him.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So John Elmer said the next morning, a relative of Naomi's called him and told him, quote, a prowler shot Dave and killed him and they were in tears. And then Naomi got on the phone and she was in tears. I asked where David was and she said they had taken him to Charleston for an autopsy. And he quotes Naomi as saying, quote, you ought to send some flowers and maybe come up.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He's because he said that they had known D.B. because D.B. had loaned him money two or three times. Oh, okay. And his wife on top of it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Fuck. John Elmer said he didn't go to the funeral, but he went to the house and he sent flowers. So he did like the friend thing. He said he had occasional contact with Naomi after the shooting. He said she told him she waited five minutes before she called the police after the shooting and said that she even reached down and felt for a pulse and she couldn't find any.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, dude, that's cold. She sat there with him for five minutes. Yeah, make sure that all the light is gone. Wow. He said then Naomi delivered $3,000 in cash inside two children's hardback books.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Some golden books. This is ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She hollowed out an Olivia for this. That's what she did.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
unbelievable this is fucking wild um and she said that was about two weeks after he said that was about two weeks later and he said that was for the killing of her husband god so he spills it now there's some other bumbling that goes on here by the way that we'll talk about that happened which is hilarious because guthrie being a fucking a drug addict and a mess yeah
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
could barely pull this off as we'll talk about. He's a goddamn disaster. It's a wonder he didn't shoot himself. It really is. Like the fact that this came off is like a miracle. It's wild. So John Elmer is offered a plea deal and he takes it really for saying all that shit.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Now the prosecuting attorney during his plea arrangement hearing calls him quote a dirt bag in the first degree, which is fucking hilarious. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Let's go arms to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We have to. We have to. We're going to Princeton, West Virginia this week. Yeah. Princeton, like the Ivy League. That is Princeton, New Jersey. Yeah. Absolutely. Princeton. And then you get to West Virginia and go, wow, this isn't what I expected.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
objectively that's hilarious a dirtbag in the first degree i would have if i was in the jury i would have went i would have died laughing i am changing my instagram bio dirtbag in the first fucking degree everybody should that's great that's amazing yeah that's awesome first degree dirtbag uh they said his meticulously detailed sworn deposition you know throws everybody under the bus yeah
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they said that he embraced the role of a jilted sap who'd been cynically manipulated all along because that's what he says. I was just some poor guy and she was using me for years for this.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
My secretary. The plea bargain deal reduces John Elmer's accessory to murder charge to voluntary manslaughter, which is nowhere near accessory to murder, by the way, in the lineup of felons.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow. That's insane. He portrayed himself as a victim who'd been beguiled to act on Naomi's behalf as he's basically the lust made me do this.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And the judge actually is like, been there, buddy. I swear to God, this judge, you know it's not a female judge because he's like, the judge totally buys everything he fucking says. Like, man, I get it. A fine ass woman.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh, boy. I'll tell you what. I got a story for you. I'll wait till after the hearing.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Before you take him off to jail to bring him to my chambers, we're going to have a chit chat because we got a lot in common. Let me just say that right now.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said he's only human. That's what he said. That's what John Elmer said. I'm only human. This is what he said. They asked him what he got to say for yourself. He said, quote, she used her body. I was under, I guess, her spell. She just came onto me with her body and her promises.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh, my God. This is wild.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She used her body. When asked by the prosecution if his regular meetings with Naomi usually resulted in sex, they said that his response conveyed more nostalgia than remorse. He sat there and he's like, oh, let me tell you about this one time. Boy, she got some lingerie.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She came out of the bathroom all sexy and I put my thing in there.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It was wild. We needed a mop afterwards. I had to go down to the office and talk about it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
gonna fill the two liter bottle wow uh so they said he said yeah almost definitely he said it was you know obviously oh he was like thinking oh man taking deep breaths so he also says that naomi was the mastermind of the murder plot against her husband and it was naomi who wanted him dead and said that the middleman who claimed he'd been you know i'm the middleman i've been emotionally manipulated i i believe that she would eventually marry me
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And, you know, I was just doing what she wanted. She said it was her that prompted me to research chemical agents that might induce David Cloud to have a heart attack, which was one of the plot that was abandoned. He said it was Naomi who settled on the ruse of an armed robbery gone wrong. And Naomi, who told him she waited five minutes before calling the cops so she could check the pulse.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It was also Naomi that suggested that John, who'd known DB well enough to borrow money from him, send flowers and show condolences. It was all her idea. It was also Naomi that provided him with $3,000 cash payment for Guthrie. And by the way, he didn't even give him the whole $3,000. What? He fucking pocketed $500. What?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And Naomi thought the whole 3,000 was going to Guthrie, and Guthrie always said he thought he was getting 2,500. So that's pretty fucking special.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. So he said, all I did was purchase the ammunition, get the gun, load it for him, give it to him, and drive him there. Which is pretty much everything. This guy just pulled the trigger. You did everything else, like everything, even the planning. He said he sent Guthrie out to deactivate the home's outdoor floodlights and locate a set of keys. And listen to this.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Especially where this is. This is like rural southern West Virginia. It's about an hour 40 to Roanoke, Virginia. So it's down by the Virginia border. It's about 55 minutes to Sky Gusty, West Virginia, which was our last West Virginia episode. The Trust Game, which was a bad game.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Corporal's not a moron either, this guy. He said that Guthrie couldn't manage to deactivate one of the floodlights, couldn't get them all off. And he said he didn't want to go inside the house because there was dogs barking inside, and he was afraid of dogs.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He's like, Jesus fucking Christ, man. Why did I pick the wrong guy? Corporal's got to be saying, I picked this jerk. I have to basically pull the trigger for him, essentially. He can't even unscrew all the floodlights. That's what a dipshit he is.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, how many Polish murderers does it take to unscrew one light bulb? No, so Guthrie then returned to the vehicle saying, I didn't get the floodlights out. And he's like, well, you needed to. That's the point. So Corpru said, take my cane and go smash it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He's got a cane. So this is a ridiculous comedy of errors right here. I mean, imagine this. This is a silly movie is what this is. Where you get back, I couldn't smash them all. You fucking idiot. Take my cane then. So he goes on. He said, Corporal, after he did, he goes in there and he smashes the cane, smashes the last floodlight with the cane.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Then Corporal said, well, let's get the fuck out of here now in case somebody heard that shit glass breaking and everything else and calls the cops.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they drove around the neighborhood until it was evident that no cops were coming. That's why they kept being seen driving around the neighborhood, because they were just like, they just drove around for like a half hour just to see what happened.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's right. So then they returned to the scene, and he said, go on. Now go on and get, do your thing. So, wow. It's wild, by the way, that after this guy, okay, if I have hired a murderer, And it's all on me. I'm responsible for the murder. OK, I got to get him ready. I got to tell him the plan. Naomi doesn't know Guthrie. So I got to tell him the plan. I got to get him a gun.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I got to get him shells. I got all this shit. And this guy can't execute part fucking A of the plan. Unscrew the floodlights. I'm calling this off with this guy. Never mind. This is crazy. Fuck this shit. Give him $500 and send him on his way. This is ridiculous. What are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. Like, honestly. But he said, nope, let's plow through this here. Unbelievable. He said that he cruised Princeton on a circuitous route that would bring him back to the spot where he'd pick him up to flee the scene. He said he never heard the shot. He said when Guthrie got in the car, Guthrie said, is it done? And Guthrie said, he'll never drink another drink.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's what he told him. So two weeks later, he gave the guy $2,500, pocketed $500 for himself. He said that neither Guthrie nor Naomi knew that he was pocketing the money on his own. So, yeah, that's how it goes. That's what he has to say here. His sworn statement here, they said that...
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Terrible, terrible game. You don't want any part of that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And probably the thing that they came up with, too, is they were like, if this is true, Naomi was probably genuinely taken aback by the fact that this happened way before she thought it was going to happen. She didn't think she'd have brain on her. She was shocked. Yeah. She didn't think she thought they'd go in the house. She'd go over here. He'd go over there, get shot. And that would be that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But instead, she said it was I guess he said that she must have been surprised because the plan, as far as she knew, was to separate them. And they'd be upstairs waiting for him. So as long as she stayed out of upstairs, she'd be fine. Interesting. And they said, so you planned on marrying Naomi? And he said, yes, I did. So the judge then questions him a bit, too.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And it's really close to Parisburg, Virginia, which we did about a month ago for the Appalachian Trail killer guy. So this is a real interesting area around here. It's in Mercer County, area code 304. And the motto here is it is the, quote, heart of Mercer County.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And, you know, he said your statements indicate that you helped plan, cooperated, schemed, counseled, aided, abetted all this shit.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
These fucking people in the offense. Do you understand that?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
and he said yes sir i do and he said he was dressed he was even dressed in a suit which is nice you wouldn't expect that from these guys i don't think i wouldn't expect either of these people to have suits on i expect them to come to access yeah i expect them to come in like fucking torn up overalls or something like yeah this is ridiculous no shirt on oh yeah the shirt's part of these pants well yeah this counts as a shirt covers my nipples don't it
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's it. So the judge continued, it is not clear from the indictment whether you were present, but I take it from the wording of the indictment that you were not. And he says that he, quote, in the same town, in town, but not at the exact scene, is what he says.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So the judge pointed out that according to state law, a person who helps plan, scheme, counsel, all this shit, a crime is as guilty as if the plans go forward as if he were present. Yeah, there you go. When proved for the facts, which made him guilty, he told the judge, I aided her. I provided transportation for him to West Virginia.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The defense attorney elaborated on the night of the shooting that he provided the transportation. And they said, did you know and understand that George Guthrie was there for the purpose of murdering David McLeod? He's like. Fuck yes, I did. The pussy was on my mind. Of course I did. I was thinking of other things.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So the sentencing, because he pleads guilty to voluntary manslaughter, he is sentenced to, he got the gun, drove him there, planned it, basically did everything. You, sir, may fuck off one to five years in prison.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He's released after eight months.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Eight months in prison. He does for murdering. Basically, essentially, this is a fucking planned, executed and did everything but pull the trigger.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's wild. Eight months. Are you kidding me? Holy shit. That judge really had something. I get that they, that's what I mean. The judge was like, I hear you, buddy. Like, I guess they really want to nail her and they really want to nail the trigger man, I suppose. So they're giving this guy a huge break. Unbelievable deal.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Like rather than saying, okay, rather than first degree murder, the second degree murder, 20 years, something like that. They go all the way. Voluntary manslaughter. You'll be out by Christmas. That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's what I mean. So then the state makes an agreement with Guthrie as well. Oh, a plea agreement here. But the trial court, the judge refuses to accept the plea agreement that he makes with the prosecutor. So this guy thought he was good. And the judge is like, fuck, no, he's the shooter. Hell no. Nope. And the judge has the right to not accept plea agreements. That's part of it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I guess. I don't know what that means.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So he's going to trial Guthrie and he is going to be presenting evidence of insanity. That's what he's going to prevent. Present.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's insanity, and they should have thrown out the confession. Those are his two big deals here. Now, the insanity defense, this is one of the jurors, by the way. This is the vaudeer of the juror in the beginning of what the fuck they think about insanity. Because when insanity is on the table, you've got to ask a whole bunch of separate set of questions, like when the death penalty is going.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they said, in general, do you believe that psychiatrists and psychologists can help people? And the juror says no. All righty. Do you know any psychiatrists or psychologists? No. I was going to say, he probably said, yeah, my ex-wife. But no. He said, you say you don't in general think they can help people. Is that based on prior experience or just a feeling?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
A lot of heart of and a lot of live, work, and play bullshit they like to throw in there. A little bit of history of this town. Not too much, but a little bit. In southern West Virginia, late 19th century, so late 1800s, coal mining and transportation became a big deal here. That was a...
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And he said, it's just general feelings. I'm just ignorant. That's all he said.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I'm just an ignorant shit kicker. That's all. That's what he might as well have said. I get inklings from shit I see on TV and then make judgments based not on reality and fact. You know how most do.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I ain't believing it. I heard it said sarcastic one too many times. So they said, do you think people who work in the mental health profession, such as psychiatrists and psychologists might be weird or seem to be weird? He said, the answer is, like I said, I don't know any of them, but from what I've read, that's a stretch. And from what I see on television, there you go.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It looks to me like they have got as much problems as the people they talk to. And it is two bothered people getting together and talking over problems. So you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, just talk about it. No. Idiot. He saw a movie.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Where there was a psychiatrist and that's what happened. And he said, well, that's what that is. And then moving on, they said, is someone who is emotionally ill considered sick? And then he said, yes.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Okay. They said, can they help the way they are? The answer is, well, I believe they could if they really had someone in the family, someone close to them to get them into a routine. I believe in work myself. And I think if you work hard and concentrate and keep your mind off things that bother you and do something else and see if that would help.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
next right everybody no no hey everybody out there this is a message from james and jimmy you got some mental issues some problems you know you need help don't seek help just work harder That'll help you.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Basically, if you work so hard that you're too tired to think about shit and that you're so depressed.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You ain't got no problems. Wow. Okay. This guy's great. That's who I want on my jury. How about you?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He's really open to different ideas and, you know, open to a lot here. They said, what's your opinion of someone claiming to be disabled on psychological or psychiatric grounds? I guess, first of all, I ought to ask you, do you think someone can be disabled for psychiatric or psychological reasons? He said, not really. Oh, my God. Oh, okay.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So, you know, you had the railroads and they were in with the coal mines and because you needed to get the coal out of there somehow. So a lot of the region's coal was sent northwest to the Great Lakes or over to Baltimore and the coal piers in Baltimore or to the world's greatest ice free port of Hampton Roads in East Virginia. That's what they say. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You've never met anyone with paranoid schizophrenia or anything, apparently. They said, is it possible to experience psychological pain? And he said, I suppose so.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Apparently everything's fine with this guy. He just saw a movie once and psychiatrists are assholes. They said, we thank you. After the jury left, this juror left the court's chambers. Guthrie's counsel moved to strike her because she indicated she had a prejudice against psychiatrists and that she couldn't accept any of their opinions. And the court said, nope, she's good.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yep, they're on the jury.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Can't have a woman who doesn't believe that insanity exists.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. It's maybe one thing if she said, yeah, I think a lot of people use that as an excuse criminally or something. That's fine. I'm with you. Yeah. You know, we can talk about that. But to say there's nobody who's not fine is is fucking insane.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So for his insanity evidence here. He presents lay and expert testimony. So just friends of his that say he's a fucking cuckoo. And then also experts here who have degrees that say it, too. They say he had not only does he have organic brain damage anyway.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Smashed his head or something.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But a long history of drug and alcohol abuse, blackouts from substance abuse, and had drug abuse mental disorders. They found he is within the normal range of intelligence, which is shocking, honestly. His experts were subjected to cross-examination, and they tried to equivocate the shit to a jury, basically, here. Right. Right. They didn't ask him to explain or expand on it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They just said, yeah, questions. Yeah. Is he capable of understanding or waiving his rights? Yes. Is he suffering from a disease that makes him incapable of understanding? No, that was it. Thank you. No further questions.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Thanks a lot, Doc. And then there's a woman just with her arms crossed shaking her head in the jury. Liar. Fucking liar. What are your problems? Wow.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
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Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. Now, John Elmer's got to earn his eight months in jail here by testifying. And he testifies during the three-day trial that he helped plot the killing. in hopes of marrying Naomi, exactly what we said. Guthrie claimed that he rejected John Elmer's attempt to hire him as a hitman and instead was framed. He said, this guy came to me.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
His lawyer said, yeah, John Elmer came to him and he refused. He said, I'm not doing that. But then once they did it without him, they said, well, let's just say it was him since we talked about him anyway.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said, quote, I guess I was under, I guess you'd call it, her spell. She just came on to me with her body. He loves saying that. He said that in both trials. Then he said, with her body and her promises, then he said, I was like a spider in a web. She was the spider, and I was in the web, and I couldn't get out. I'm sorry this happened.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Ice-free, I guess. They're not going to freeze ice over for some reason. Princeton's location was east of the coal fields, and most of the coal mining and railroad activity was somewhere else at first. But then it became a thing that ended up being with Princeton. Princeton got real tied up in the railroad, the Virginia Railroad, which is called the VGN.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I don't know if it means anything to anybody, but I'm sorry.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I'm just a little tiny little aphid just stuck up in here. She wraps her beautiful, smooth silk around me. My dick gets hard and I can't help anything that happens.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Just a little old silkworm here. Now, the verdict comes in and they find Guthrie guilty of first degree murder.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
yeah okay uh sentencing here we go uh this is crazy you sir may fuck off life in prison but there's a big but yeah with the eligibility of for parole do you know how long until he's eligible for parole oh my god 50 years 10 years oh wow that's it wow first degree murder it could be out in 10
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Throw you down a coal mine? Throw you down an abandoned mine shaft or something?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And then we're going to have one of our shit local bands play underneath the rain of a viscera. And while it's happening, we're all going to dance to It's Raining Men. That's what's going to happen.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Jesus Christ. So, yeah, that is 10 years.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow. Unbelievable. So, now, the two guys are taken care of. We got him and we got this one. Now, the point of that is to now put her up for trial. Right. She's going to be in so much trouble. OK, so remember, though, she's being held. She was out on that fifty thousand dollar bond. She put property up for and moved to Huntington to sell cars at a Chevy dealership. Like, let me show you the new.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Let me show you the new citation. It's wonderful. I'm trying to think of what shit cars were out.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No, it was the worst time we've ever had for cars. Even Corvette sucked.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, the Beretta was later, I think. I'm going Citation, man.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Monte Carlo, I think, probably was out. There would have been a bunch of them.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She was slinging them, though. Yeah. So during this year, so she is being called, her case is being called here. It's 943 a.m. and the state calls the state or they call the state of West Virginia against Mary Naomi Cloud. The state said the state is ready. But then they approached the bench saying the defendant's not here. No, she's not here right now.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Busy showing a fucking hundred and thirty horsepower fucking Z28 right now. It's exactly what she's busy doing. So they said that the defendant hasn't appeared yet. The judge says the trial date, I guess the defense is asking for a continuance. And the judge says the trial date was set six weeks ago. And he said, let's do the usual procedure when a defendant fails to report for trial.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And but the problem is that coal is basically, you know, coal, a mountain that's filled with coal doesn't last forever.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And he was out of the courtroom for several minutes before he returned and announced, quote, she is not in the courthouse.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So, yeah, well, that's the thing that's going on at that point. The judge orders a bond for the considers the bond forfeited and it tells the state to issue a bench warrant for arrest of her immediately. Yeah, this is May of 1982. And he said a warrant will be issued. And yeah, there were unconfirmed rumors circulating around the courtroom that Naomi had written her parents a note or a letter.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
However, the contents of that was never revealed to the media or it's not in the court records either. But there was a big, big kerfuffle going on around there saying that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Well, let's talk about it. No. That would be, yeah. She forfeited the property, but she's a little slicker than that, as we'll find out. A spokesman for the Huntington Police Department's Detectives Bureau told the newspaper that he was contacted last week by her friend Bernie Stanley, the guy she's with. Yeah, yeah. Stanley's employer concerning a missing car. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So once that's depleted, then you just got the companies leave and then that's that. And they leave behind depleted mines and things like that. And the same thing happens with the railroads that are no longer needed either.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But he said no warrant had been obtained by the company. And the officer indicated that Stanley had been an employee there for about six years. Now, she's gone. They go to her house. They can't find her. No one knows where the fuck she is. She disappeared. So did Bernie. He's gone, too. Oh, Bernie. They're ghosts like the fuck out. Oh, boy. Yeah. They put wanted posters up with a $5,000 reward.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I mean, she's like Billy the Kid now.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So that's fucking wild. Actual fugitive. She actual fugitive. Wait till you hear her nickname. It's great. All the newspapers use it. It's fantastic. She basically rounded up all her liquid assets and took the fuck off.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
With a younger call in the newspaper. What's described as a younger, handsome male companion. Bernie D. Stanley.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So the prosecution believed that she probably took off well in advance of her court date, but they couldn't do anything about it because the court will do nothing until she's officially a no show. They're not going to say, oh, well, she can't arrest her for we think she might not show up.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's possibly, yeah. They said she'd never spent a minute in jail yet for this, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yep. She didn't even forfeit the property bond she had to put up to secure her bail. And we'll find out why here. Wow. They said, yeah, the prosecutor said that this was anticipated, but they couldn't take any official action until the judge opened the court at the assigned time. And it was officially recorded that she hadn't shown up.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
For the coal. So by 2006 here, the VGN Prince, that's the Virginia Railroad Princeton shops facilities were demolished there. And these were like really old buildings, too, that kind of gave the town some character. So the residents were really upset about this, that they all got torn down. So they built a replica of the VGN's two story Princeton passenger station and offices.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So apparently what she did is she sold the building she put up for bail before she left town.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She's got the money and they don't have the property because it belongs to someone else now.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they're just fucked holding their dicks in their hand going, maybe we should have made it higher.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Maybe something like that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they the judge orders the forfeit of the fifty thousand dollar bond issues. The bench warrant does all that. They said there's no indication of where she might have gone. from any of the prosecution or defense witnesses at the courthouse, but all persons involved in the case appeared to assume that she probably fled the state and possibly the country.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She's got some money. It's 1982 at this point. It's not like, you know, you can go anywhere you want. So they said the prosecuting attorney told the newspaper immediately following the brief session of court that he and his staff will pursue this case, quote, to the limit. and make every effort possible to have Cloud caught and returned to Fayette County to stand trial for the murder.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Every tax dollar. We will put aside the fancy oldie new railroad station that will make y'all happy. We'll put it aside for 25 years. Spend all this money.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So all over the country now, there is articles everywhere. She's on the front page all over the place. Whole country known as, quote, the Fugitive Temptress, which is absolutely the name of this episode. Unbelievable. The Fugitive Temptress, which is fucking hilarious. They describe her as 5'1.5", 105 pounds, and they put her social security number in the newspaper. What? 428-828-259.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's in the newspaper. Anybody can find it. I'll say it, too. Fuck it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Jesus Christ. Are you kidding me? A thousand people would steal her identity in 12 seconds.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Pretty much, yeah. Temptress fugitive. Hey, murder skank, come over here a minute. We call her the slut of death. Nah, that's no good. What about fugitive temptress? Yeah, that's better, right? Slut of death is crazy to put on a headlight. You can't put that. That's offensive. Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow, so there's no warrants pending for her boyfriend somehow. I would think aiding and abetting, a fugitive, something like that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's the thing. He's described as a white male, 6'2", tall, weighing about 240 pounds with dark hair, about 40 years old.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Probably dumb as fuck. Wet dick, that's for sure.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Raw dick, that we know about. So at the same time she sold that building, she also sold her downtown cosmetics business to her sister Sylvia as well. Wow. Yeah, the state didn't know she was doing this, but she was liquidating and getting as much cash as she could fucking gather. In July 1981, she sold the building she'd put up for her bond to her brother and his wife.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
aided by her lawyer, John Frazier, who, since that happened, had been appointed a circuit judge now. Oh, my. Frazier was accused in a lawsuit filed by the family of Cloud of helping Naomi sell the building when both knew it was being used for bond. Frazier dropped out of the Cloud case after being appointed a judge and declined to discuss his former client.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I don't want to talk about the shady shit I did before. Now I'm upstanding. I'm not doing that anymore. Family members and other Princeton residents who knew Naomi also refused to discuss the case. They said that Dave's will DB's will is still in probate. And they said a lot will depend on the outcome of the trial because she's found not guilty.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She's going to get a whole shitload more than she would have if she isn't. Wow. She has apparently has a really high powered lawyer after that. Haddad is his last name. Nationally known lawyer from Louisville. He told the newspaper that he was surprised at Naomi's decision to attempt to evade trial, quote, because she's been very strong throughout the time we've been working on all of this.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They just there's no they just built it. It does. So people and they said it's the largest effort in the entire state. This is a state that is dying from like opioid epidemic and it has the lowest income in the country, the lowest housing price. Like everything here is depressed and low. And they're like, what if we spent a bunch of money? To build a replica of a building that made people smile.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She's full of shit, too. They said, are you going to keep working with her now since she took off and made you look like kind of an asshole? You know, when you beg on your face, man. Yeah. When you say you beg for bail for a client, you're kind of vouching for him. You know what I mean? You say, I trust them. And he said, oh, yes, I won't bail out on her now. Why do they do that?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I won't bail out on her. She got bailed out. Why do they always have people?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. Like I said, it's like when we go on something that we're on live TV on the news in Chicago that time, and it's 6 a.m., and neither of us have slept, and they're like, don't curse. And we're like, oh, shit. Oh, God damn it. That's all I'm going to do now. How you doing? James fucking Petrogallo here. Good to meet you. Oh, shit, I can't say that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Fuck, it's early, right? You fuckers look good this morning. How's it going? I just can't help it at that point.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Jesus Christ. Balls, this is early.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Fuck, right? Wouldn't you? Come on. Back in the studio, huh? So Stephen Cloud, who is DB's son, said that he suspected his stepmother wouldn't stick around for her trial, but he remains hopeful... that she'll be recaptured. I would think eventually, yeah. He said, I certainly hope so, but I don't know. I think she'll end up paying in the end.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And the prosecutor gives a, this is a really, this will make you feel better if you're a family member and you really want her caught. He says that he's pretty confident that Naomi will be found, quote, one of these days.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Dude, look harder. What are you talking about? One of these days they said the task of tracking down Naomi is just hard to do. They can't find her. They said where and there would be newspapers all over the place. They would just have where's Naomi articles every once in a while. Where is she? What's going on here? And that will also hurt D.B. Cloud's kids.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Basically, they call the cops in the prosecutor's office every week. Right. Where's Naomi? You find her yet? What's going on? You got any leads? I'd like every fucking week, which is what you kind of seems like you have to do this. Apparently.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they said they failed to define her despite pursuing clues in many states and countries. The pursuing clues everywhere. So the authorities say in an effort to defraud the state, she sold the property that she claimed was her bond. The prosecutor announced that his office investigation had revealed that an apartment house in Princeton was the property used for the bond.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And in September of 1980, she sold that to her brother, sold her business to her sister. And he said that he would take legal action to have the property turned back over to the state to meet the bond requirements.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
In the civil action, they said the deed between Mary Naomi Cloud and E. Howard Hill and Betty Hill be set aside on the grounds the property was subjected to the bond and that the couple had conditioned reason to believe that the property was subject to bond. It's hard, though, because they just go, we didn't know. Yeah. It's all through already. Like, I don't know how you. That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Eighty four. He maintains his confession should have been suppressed because he was not promptly presented to a magistrate.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Hammered. But instead was taken to police headquarters and interrogated. He was arrested at 925 p.m. and taken before a magistrate at 1145. So 220. That's how long that is. His thesis is that the officers had probable cause to arrest the warrant founded on the indictment so that the pre-presentment interrogation was unnecessary and the only reason he was not presented was to get him to confess.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's what he's saying in these filings. Now, Virginia's arrest and presentment statute, and also is similar to West Virginia's, provide that the persons arrested under warrant shall be taken before a magistrate, quote, without unnecessary delay. Which sounds like take you right there unless the car breaks down.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Like, what the hell are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Unnecessary delay doesn't mean we feel like interrogating him. Necessary to me means the car broke down. There's a blizzard outside. Yeah. Aliens are invading. Someone's getting their dick sucked by Naomi. Something like that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Whatever it is, Guthrie could have easily been presented to a magistrate. This is his filing advised of his rights, informed of the charges and his state of intoxication could have been assessed at that point. Now, the state says that we are not to apply our prompt presentment statute extraterritorially and Virginia applying her own law would admit this confession.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Okay, so now you're talking about which state's law are we going to go with? Yeah. What the fuck? They said there is authority for the government's position, but the court says they disagree. This is not a question of extraterritorial application of our prompt presentment rule. We must decide whether a confession elicited under the facts in this case is admissible in our criminal courts.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Guthrie's not being tried in Virginia for his crime. He's being tried here. Okay. So he also says the insanity thing. He said he offered evidence he was insane. He argues that the state failed to rebut the evidence sufficiently because all they got was a yes and a no from their psychologist. And the jury said, good enough for me.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they said that there exists in the trial of an accused a presumption of sanity. However, should the accused offer evidence that he was insane, the presumption of sanity disappears and the burden is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was sane at the time of the offense. A lot of states, that's the opposite.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Like Florida, it's your burden to show you're crazy, not theirs to show you're sane.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's a totally different thing, which is a big difference actually. Yeah, that's a lot of burden. That's why no one ever gets off on it. When the issue of sanity has been fully developed at trial and it conclusively appears that the defendant was not criminally responsible at the time the crime was committed...
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The trial judge may in instance and instances must direct the verdict in favor of the defendant, meaning before it even goes to the they must throw that jury the jury verdict out and do a directed a directed verdict because they didn't take the facts into consideration.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they said that in this case, the conflicting evidence adduced at trial forecloses the possibility that the evidence was conclusive of insanity, even if the appellate alleges that his psychiatric experts were superior to the state's psychiatric expert.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Defendant's position is that he produced sufficient evidence of insanity to repeal the original presumption of sanity and that the state's submission of two curt, unexplained answers by its expert was equal to no rebuttal at all. And therefore, as a matter of law, He must be found insane.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They also question whether the trial court erred in refusing to strike that juror who indicated that she didn't think that people were mental illness was real.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, that is fucking wild. Now the decision here, the West Virginia police, they said, worked hard to find, and the Virginia police worked together to arrest Guthrie. Virginia's only involvement was her fugitive warrant predicated on a crime committed in West Virginia.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
At all times during the arrest, questioning, processing and presentment, the Virginia officers were accompanied by our West Virginia authorities. Finally, the evidence is clear that Guthrie's delay was prompted by our officers and untimely interrogation was conducted by them. OK, now intoxication was Guthrie unable to give a voluntary confession.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The trial court found that he had ingested speed and beer, but that he was capable of waiving his rights. The troopers all testified he appeared normal, while his family and friends said the opposite. The trial judge heard the testimony and was in the best position to evaluate the credibility of the witnesses. So that's basically, they said, our hands are off of this one.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
To warm his house like an American hollow, like on the ground going in the mountain to pick it. Yeah. Oh, my God. That's so sad. That's fucking horrible.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The insanity, the judge had that thing, the intoxication. The judge would know best, so that's not on us. Okay, great. The juror, they said, we cannot conclude that this juror was unable to render a verdict solely on the evidence and the court's charge. Therefore, the trial court did not err by refusing to strike her for cause, which is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Then they say the confession, West Virginia officers may not avoid our state's rules about prompt presentment of arrestees and admissibility of confessions when they cross our borders to apprehend a fugitive criminal suspect. The tangential involvement of Virginia police in the arrest process in Guthrie's case did not obviate the requirement that our officers follow our laws.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We conclude Guthrie's confession was inadmissible, reversed and remanded. Oh, boy. New trial. New trial. Absolutely. So November 1984, they do a new trial here. And in the opening statements, the prosecutor says, the first-degree murder case cries out for justice. It was a contract killing here in this county for no reason other than gain by Mrs. Cloud, gain by Corprew, and gain by Guthrie.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It was a senseless, brutal killing. Defense says that his client had no part in the killing, and his confession is not admissible here, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Which, good luck. They have court proofs. You know, they have John Elmer, but that's uncorroborated.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yep. I don't think a lot of people realize that there's people living a Charlie Bucket lifestyle.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. Usually from a co-defendant or a co-criminal, you have to have corroboration for their shit. So they said, you know, it's this guy who talked about getting rid of David Cloud in various ways and all this. Not my guy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They said Corpru is the one that he should be sitting right here. So the defense attorney says that he intended or contends that his client had no part in the killing and that Corpru is the culprit. He said Naomi Cloud and Corpru had been lovers who schemed to get rid of David Cloud, you know, including ways, including poison before the shooting.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So they said that Guthrie, whose first degree murder trial ended today, they go goes pretty quick. He claims that he rejected the offer again and that he's being framed. Same thing as the first time. In closing arguments, they said that the prosecutor said that he plea bargained with Korpuru because he's the sole link in the events involving the killing.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said, I wish I was up here in front of you trying him, too. Believe me. Yeah. Scumbag. But got to do what you got to do.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Right now. I don't think people realize that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yes, literally. No matter how much they want to, they'd have to go to a McDonald's to do it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So the defense lawyer said there are two guilty people, Naomi and Corpru. And George Guthrie is not the third. No, he's the second. Verdict comes in. He is found guilty of first-degree murder. Again. Again. With mercy, though, again. Okay. Okay. Which leads him to be sentenced to you, sir, again. May fuck off. Life in prison with eligibility of parole in 10 years. That's with mercy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Ten years. You shot a guy point blank in the face with a shotgun on purpose for monetary gain. That is like the most clear cut first degree murder you know in a prison forever. Shit I've ever heard in my life. Cold blooded to cold blooded as fuck. That's cold dude. Dark.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Sit there to break a light. He sat there. And waited. With plenty of opportunity to go, what am I doing? The fuck is wrong with me? Never mind. Even when they came in, he could have just said, never mind, and stayed behind a bush and not alerted them to his presence and taken off. There's so many ways to get out of this.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. Okay. Naomi still missing. Oh, three years now. It's been since she took off. A twenty thousand dollar reward is being offered for information leading to her arrest. This reward is offered by cloud stepchildren. One of them here talks about it and says that, you know, the reward is, you know, they just hope that she's found.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They'll give any amount of money they can to get her back to get her back here to be fucking put away. which they shouldn't have to put the reward up, I don't think. Again, maybe if you had one less fucking fancy replica building of an old railroad station, you could put up a goddamn fucking reward for murder fugitives who have fled your state, who you go, hope we find her someday.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh, my God. All sorts of rewards. And every once in a while there's articles around, hey, where's this Naomi lady?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But technically they could if they really wanted to.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh, man. So April 23rd, 1988, Kennewick, Washington. State. State.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Other side of the country, near the Oregon border, I believe, as a matter of fact here. Authorities get a tip in West Virginia that she is living in Kennewick, Washington. So a former state trooper travels to Washington with State Police Sergeant Charles Blizzard, just like the blizzard. That's fucking awesome for the arrest. I will arrest you like a blizzard. You won't even see it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They receive a tip on where Cloud could be found. The information likely, they said, if they find her, they should be good for this reward that's been put up. So the investigator said he basically went to Kennewick and flashed pictures from wanted posters to people all around the town. And they said, oh, yeah, we know that lady. That's her. We know her. So they staked her house out.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That is wild. So reviews of this town. They got that, though. That's very important. Reviews of this town. Four stars here is the first one. Depends on who you ask, I suppose. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They arrived about 7.30 p.m. and no one was home. So they said that Bernie Stanley arrived at about 8 p.m. Oh, she's still with him.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
by himself he walks in the house so they wait they're like fuck did she maybe they broke up maybe we don't know what happened then about 11 20 p.m here comes naomi strutting on up the driveway she goes in the house they wait for some reason they don't arrest her outside they wait till she goes in the house and i guess to coordinate a raid or whatever but they don't even raid they just knock on the front door
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And Bernie is talking to the cops. While Bernie's talking to the cops, she tries to run out the back door and take off.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And walked right into police. Better than a guy with a shotgun. True, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I picture, like, Lorraine Bracco in Goodfellas, like, cutting up bags of Coke and dumping them in the toilet. Like, shit like that. Freaking out. So the police, the guy who arrested her, said she looked totally shocked. She was very upset. She didn't say a word to me after we arrested her. Just gave me the dirty looks she used to give me before.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This shit's beneath me looks.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I don't give a shit about your tits right now. They said that Stanley and Cloud apparently have been living in this home since July of the previous year of 87. So they've been here for a while. Cloud was working and had a Washington's driver's license under the name Carol Donna Johnson.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
By the way, you know what everyone called her?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Donna. She went by her middle name still, even on her driver's license. See the little things people give away? She didn't need to do that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's what I mean. She made her fucking name up. It doesn't matter. They said the cops said it was obvious she tried to disguise her appearance in the license picture. But when we arrested her, she looked the same. Anybody would have known her. Same hair, same makeup. The only thing is she gained a little weight in the hips. That is hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You're the one leaving the review. Okay? That's the thing. If someone brings you food and you eat it and they go, how was your lunch? And you go, depends on who you asked. Who the fuck else am I asking? You ate the sandwich. Tell me whether it was good or not.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She still puts makeup on from eight fucking years ago and she's ass is a little fat. We'll just say right now a little outside the realm of what you know.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But she looked just like she did last time I saw her. During the six years on the run, where has she been? What's she been doing? It's shocking. Okay. She was alleged to have had a number of aliases on credit cards and other documents belonging to her. I don't know how she does all this, but back then it was probably a lot easier.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You could also like fake documents.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No shit. Yeah, they said that she went by Bonnie Naomi Bright, Mary Naomi Bright, Bonnie Naomi Hancock, Mary Naomi Hill, Carol Donna Johnson, Mary Naomi Lewis, which is her fucking maiden name, which is pretty stupid. Mary Hill Stanley, which is her boyfriend's last name, and Carol Donna Marie. Okay. Marie is a last name. Yeah. OK. OK. In one of her fucking lives, one of her fucking identities.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She worked as a sales rep for a water softening firm and her sales in the company ranked third nationally. Oh, my God. She was living her life, dude. They weren't. I mean, they weren't hiding like, you know, God looking out the window. She's fucking selling things to people.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This is the third best person of it in the whole nation. So during her extradition, it became evident she'd become quite popular in her new area because when they go to extradite her and get her on the plane, 20 to 30 people show up to see her off. The whole town shows up because they're so sad.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Holy shit. Yeah. They said that they acted like she was a celebrity. Wow. And it wasn't like, ooh, to gawk at her. They had signs showing support for her.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They had signs declaring their love and support for Donna, the cop said.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's okay, kind of quiet, and used to be low crime, but the past couple years it has spiked due to the high drug activity that's taken over the whole county that Princeton is in. And that's pretty much all of West Virginia at this point. Mostly property crimes or theft. We'll see about that later. We have the stats here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She doesn't even fucking exist. He said they acted like she was a movie star or something. They said there was 11 different people carrying signs and expressing their fucking support. They waved and hugged goodbye to her. And one said, we believe, or the sign said, we believe in you. We love you, Donna, said one of the signs. Another just said, be positive.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
which is a really okay being extradited for murder there's not a lot of positive going on be positive here uh even with everything here they said that she seemed relaxed as she waited with her boyfriend bernie who's gonna board the plane with her and go back even though he's not under arrest at all um cloud was dressed in a yellow sweater and slack she was accompanied by two law officers from west virginia but was not handcuffed they didn't even handcuff her
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
What is going on? They let her hang out at the airport, talk to her friends, hug people. She's in custody. For murder. For fucking murder. And they let her get on the plane with her boyfriend. They put her in first class too? What the fuck is happening? Make sure to get her the headphones so the movie isn't a waste.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No, it's a United Express flight.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
A United Express flight to Seattle where they fucking then get a flight.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, to probably some other city to where they have to drive 12 hours to fucking West Virginia. So, unhandcuffed. Wow. One of her friends, Cindy Fenwick of Idaho, who identified herself as a friend of Donna, Naomi, whoever the fuck, said, quote, she's innocent. This is totally out of character for her. This lady drove two hours to say goodbye at the airport.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This lady said, she's that good of a friend to me. You don't even know her.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Rocket Money. It's the start of a new year. It's the perfect time to get organized, set your goals, prioritize what matters most. And for me, top priority is getting myself together here. Financial wellness, doing that, which that feels important.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She's a very nice person. She was special to everyone she has been in contact with. And this lady said, these people at the airport have only known her a couple months. That's how much she touches people. We've heard how she touches people. Apparently, she's the best at it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow, so this lady said she met Naomi through business dealings in Denver, Colorado, but she wouldn't say what type of business she was in. She said that she lived with Cloud and Stanley in Denver for a short time.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
She said, and they took others in who were having hard times, too. Lay low. Lay low, which is how they get caught, because there was a tip saying she lived here. If she wasn't making friends with everybody, no one would have spent any tips in. So they said that. Wow, that's fucking wild. Yeah. They said some people here declined to comment.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So it depends on which part of Princeton you live, but the more rural areas in Mercer County outside of Princeton, in my opinion, are better choices on where to live if you're going to move here. That's where our story takes place. Go more rural? Yes, outside of this tiny town we'll talk about. It's not very big.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
One man at the airport went so far as to hide an insignia on his cap with tape and paper. So, no, I guess it's probably where he worked or something. Stanley declined to talk to reporters as well, and he's not charged, but he had a seat booked on the same flight with her. They boarded the plane together with one officer in front and one behind.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Before she got on the plane, she turned to wave at her friends like... See you next time. Yep, standing on the airport's outside observation deck with their signs. Once the plane flew off, an unidentified boy said, she's gone. There she goes into the clouds. Oh, man.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I don't know. It beats the shit out of me. I assume so. You would hope they're handcuffed if they're murderers, but, you know, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, yeah. We're going to handcuff you to the toilet back here. Stanley's not arrested. The only West Virginia charges, auto theft that were placed against him, remember when they disappeared, were dropped years ago. Wow. For lack of anything.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So, yeah, they said they couldn't arrest Stanley for harboring a fugitive because the arrest was not in West Virginia, where if it was in West Virginia, then he's harboring. If it's somewhere else, it's not harboring. That's wild. They said Meadows said Stanley made no attempt to evade authorities during the arrest. He just talked to her. The cop said this is kind of a hard trip for her. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said him and his fellow officer were trying to make her as comfortable as possible. Why? Why? Make her uncomfortable. No. Can you get her something to drink? Absolutely not.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No. You sit up straight. We get headphones and watch the movie. You fucking watch it in silence. The whole thing. No peanuts.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. Bullshit. So back in West Virginia here, they get back there and they get off the plane about 11 p.m. on a Saturday night to be met by a shitload of news media and cameras and several members of Naomi's family who hadn't seen her in six years, they said here. The cop said there was a lot of tears and it was very emotional. It was really emotional scene when they first saw her.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I don't think they had seen her since she left. He said that he anticipated news media coverage about this, but he said he didn't expect the mob of cameramen and reporters who greeted them. He said, we went straight through the terminal to the car, but they followed us, and some of the members of the family got upset. There was a problem when one of her family members grabbed at a camera.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The job market in Princeton, to me, are much to be desired as there are way more banks, fast food restaurants, and used car lots than anything else, leaving not a lot of choice unless you're fine with these types of jobs. So that's every small town. Limited employment. That's what you get. Three stars. Crime is everywhere. Whether wherever you go, you are going to have crime. There's crime here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This has just turned into a shit show. He said they allowed Cloud a few minutes with her elderly mother while at the airport. She is taken directly to a magistrate here to plead not guilty. here at our hearing. Stanley, like we said, not arrested, doing nothing. He was using the name of Robert D. Johnson.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's the thing, yeah. She was formally charged as a fugitive during a court hearing. They set her bail bond at $100,000 this time, and she doesn't have that now. They said they asked that... A prosecution asked, can she be held without bond until there's a formal hearing on evidence? And they said that... You know, she fucking fled last time.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They said we found her clear across the country using an assumed name with identification on her showing she used several aliases. And we have a judgment on her for 50,000 already. So, you know, can we maybe keep her here? Now, the arrest came as a result of a telephone call to the cop. He said he declined to release the name, but he said that someone I had talked to knew that I knew and trusted.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said the first call by the informant was made to the prosecuting attorney's office on Monday, April 18th, when he was in Roanoke. He said there had been no indication that any information on the cloud case was forthcoming and that he was surprised because it's been six years. I forgot about it by now. Um, the informant asked the, a receptionist to speak with Meadows about the cloud case.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And when told he was out of town, the guy said that he would, uh, another call would be made later. The informant called back at 9 15 AM and, they told Meadows that he wanted the information. It could be revealed about where they were living. That's what the guy said. This is what it's about.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And, um, they said the informant was reluctant at first Meadows said, and indicated the information would be revealed in a week. Uh, I'll tell you in a week, is what the person said. So the cop said, we talked for about 45 minutes or an hour. I didn't want to take a chance of waiting a week and I finally got the information.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said, in the informant, it was somebody I know and it was the first time we had ever gotten a street address in a town. That was the reason why I was convinced it was a good tip because they had an actual address.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So he and Blizzard were unable to make the trip until Thursday because they had to get airline tickets and the services of federal marshals to accompany them for the arrest. A lot of arranging to do. Yeah, that's a lot. And they said, yeah, the informant will probably get the reward. So they indicated their defense indicates that they want the case resolved as promptly as possible.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Let's get it going. Yeah. Now you want to get it done. Where were you six years ago when we wanted to get this done? They said they asked for a date to be set soon because he will need a minimum of 60 days to locate witnesses in the eight-year-old case. They said a number of key witnesses are from out of state, necessitating sending out-of-state subpoenas.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We had a difficult time finding one witness for the last trial, and he's the owner of the shotgun used. Yeah. They said that the past six years we've spent our time looking for her and have not kept up with the witnesses. It will take the state a minimum of 30 days to crank everything back up again. This has been collecting dust on a shelf. We put this away.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Guthrie's already, he's almost on fucking parole already. The other guy, Corpus, lived three lives since then.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Fucking A, man. So the detective's reaction here is, Mrs. Meadows said, quote, well, she finally spent a night in jail. I waited a long time for this. He said, you don't know the nights I've laid awake trying to find out where she was. It's been a long time and it's a relief. He said, we're relieved that we, and one of the kids of DB's kids said, we are relieved they finally found her.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We always knew they would because we knew they never gave up on the case. He said that because he kept badgering them, not badgering, doing the right thing.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You just don't hear of it that often. OK, so it's not affecting you. That's good. I think that mainly the problem is neighbors disrespecting neighbors. Really? That doesn't sound like crime. That just sounds like people are dicks.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Let's crank it up, guys. What are we doing? Where are we going today? And they're like, huh? What's that now? Good morning. Now, one of her attorneys tells the court that a plea deal would be in her best interest because she fears a first-degree murder conviction based solely on Corp Rue's testimony.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So the state agrees to a plea deal with her for second-degree murder.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Okay. They made the plea to the judge. They said in a low voice she made the plea, barely audible to spectators, including about 10 of her family members and friends and the victim's three children and brother. Her lawyer then asked for probation.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
For second-degree murder. There's no probation for that. What are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
From a murder charge. This is crazy. So the plea bargaining was arranged by her lawyers. She still had the same lawyer. He didn't back out on her. Christ, it was still six years later. Frank Haddad is his name. And yeah, she never takes the witness stand to have to tell her part. They do not make her allocute shit. She just has to plead guilty. Sentencing comes around. You, ma'am. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
May fuck off. Five to 18 years.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
What the fuck? She was gone for six.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I assume they've changed the sentencing laws. Right. They have to. Her attorneys asked that she be considered for probation after a background reports given to the court. And they were like, I don't fucking think so. Uh, DB's daughter said, quote, it's my birthday and this is one of the best birthday presents I've ever had. And Sharon cloud. Um, she said that we've waited a long time.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's been a long eight years. Holy shit. They said it was great to finally hear her say guilty. His son, DB's son, who came all the way from Texas at a moment's notice, said it's been a long time and naturally we would have preferred it and it would have been nice to see her get first degree. But it was good to see her finally admit her guilt. She can compose a plea any way she wants to.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We all know she's guilty. So, yeah. They said, we're glad it is where it is and has finally come. I don't know whether it's right or not, but who cares? And Sharon, the daughter, said, the worst of it is it will never be over.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I know I've had to call the cops a few times at where I live just because of the neighbors. Either they're being too loud or simply being rude. You call the cops because your neighbors are rude? We can't do that. You can't be building fucking replica train stations and wasting resources because your people – you've got to think for a minute where you live, and this is valuable resources here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No. So 1989, assets left from this are being sought now. They're trying to get assets. Authorities tried to seize the building she put up, and that was gone. They said the $90,000 in insurance money also, that's fucking God knows where. So they said they planned to investigate to determine how much money she has.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They said, we're going to find out if she has other assets and see if she has money in somebody else's name. We have a judgment against her for $50,000 plus $50 in costs and 10% interest every year since May 1982. Wow. But as far as I know, she doesn't have any assets to collect.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So there's that. They said she expects the victim's children to pursue the money that she received after her husband's death. But she said, I don't think that she has much money now.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Which is surprising, right?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Who knew? If you're thinking about going into the water softener sales game...
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You maybe should not best and still be broke, still be fucking poor as shit.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So, yeah, this is trying to find this. Yeah, she I believe she I don't know if this is her or not. I found an obituary.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
for uh for someone who fits her name um but i don't know if it's her or not though it's hard to tell so i'm not positive about that yeah that's a that's a tough one so who knows well but she's definitely everyone's out of prison no one served too long a time for this yeah is the age right Not quite. Yes. But it's I don't know if it's her, though. It's one of those things.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I can't be positive of it to say, yes, she's dead or yes, she's not. Or here's her Instagram. I don't know because the one has an Instagram. So I'm not sure. Yeah. Now, like we've done before in West Virginia, because it's a wild style kind of place here. Wanted to tell that first story and then tell a shorter story at the end here. That is because that was, you know, West Virginia.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
But that was I mean, yeah, there was some fuckery and panhandlery going on here. But it was also like rich people and all this type of thing. So I feel like some people might go, man, I didn't get like a real West Virginia groundhog for breakfast panhandle kind of thing here. So I got another case for you here that we'll run through real quick here. From 1956. Yeah. Mingo County, 1956.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. Known as bloody Mingo County. Okay. Not good here. This is Delorme. It's in Delorme, West Virginia. D-E-L-O-R-M-E. Yeah. Delorme or Delorme, one of the two. Yeah. Okay. This is in the middle of the afternoon, by the way. We'll cut to this. 1956, October 19th, 1956, 4.30 in the afternoon, between 4 and 4.30 at what is called a beer tavern known as Don's Place.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Now, it's operated by Noah Farrell, who is the stepfather of the wife of the defendant. All right. Stepfather of his father-in-law. All right. It's a one-story building in which the tavern is operated locally about 25 feet from the edge of a road. It's West Virginia Route No. 49 and fronts on that highway.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The open space between the highway and the building extends along and beyond the front of the building for several feet in each direction. At the front entrance is a large single door, which when open, swings inside the building, and the bottom of the door is several inches above the level of the area between the building and the highway.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So it sits up. It's on a step base. It's elevated. So floods don't come in when it rains. Got it. So it's a big highway, big parking lot type space in the beginning here. Outside the building and directly in front of the door is one concrete step of normal height above the ground at the top of the step.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And the top above the ground and the top of the step is a few inches below the level of the door of the building and the bottom of the door. That's really, okay. There's a step. It's a step going into a door that has another small step. That's all it is. Like most houses do, a little step up.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's a high crime area, but rudeness is really what we should worry about. Wow. But I've come to realize that no matter where you go, you're going to have problems. Yeah. You just described everywhere. One star. I love this one star. There is no nightlife in Princeton. The Applebee's in town is open until 11. That's the nightlife, the Applebee's.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Inside the building is a large room, which are several booths on one side, a service counter, and a bar on the opposite side of the booths. You know, a bar.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, in the middle of fucking Mingo County, West Virginia.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So the early afternoon, like we said, between 4 and 4.30 on this date in 1956, Clyde Fields, enter Clyde Fields. He is age 40 to 45, he's said at. Somewhere around there. We don't know. We don't keep good records around these parts. And it's 1956, so he was born in, you know, 1910 or 1915. Yeah. So they said he's about 5'10", about 155 pounds. Not a big guy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He limped noticeably because he has an artificial leg, which will do that to you here. And not great artificial legs in the mid-50s in West Virginia either.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No, but they're a shitload better than this.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This was just wood strapped to your body. That's all that shit was.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Fucking brutal, man. Yeah, that's hard. Probably dragging it around with you would be difficult. So now this guy, Clyde Fields, is hanging out with Luther Daniels, who's a 19-year-old man. So 45 and 19.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I was going to say, it's probably too young. It's 18 back then. It didn't switch to 21 until the 80s.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. And I'm thinking West Virginia back then is probably like going to Mexico where they're like, yeah, I do. That's cute. Yeah, sure. That's fun. So, yeah, he's 19. They sat together visiting, drinking beer and moonshine whiskey at two other taverns in the neighborhood of Don's place before they came to Don's place between three and four o'clock for the purpose of doing what?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I don't know what day of the week it is, but it's the middle of the fucking afternoon.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, 1940, no jobs between them. Okay. They had no money. which is when you go to bars to drink. Oh, my God. This is crazy. And so the one, the guy who ends up the stepson of the owner here talks about, I got lost. Okay, yeah, stepson of the owner here of Don's Place, Noah Farrell's stepson here. He decides he's going to step in. Hayes is, what the fuck is his, Hayes?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I got to find his last name here. Oh, boy. It's confusing because it's from an old document. So I'm trying to like piece it together here. So anyway, this guy, they had no money. And the guy and the stepson who helps his stepdad operate the tavern wouldn't give them beer on credit.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No, absolutely not. Yeah, Luther Daniels asked for it. They said no. Then Clyde Fields asked for it. He said, I'm not letting you have beer either. Neither of you. Not happening. They said both of them were intoxicated and trouble occurs between Daniels, who's the 19-year-old Luther Daniels. A 19-year-old can't hold his moonshine. Shocking.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And that's the closest thing to nightlife that this town gets. The bars here are dives and so full of crime. Any decent person will be too scared to go in them.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow. Crazy, right? So they're intoxicated, and Daniels starts some trouble with a customer named Artemis Mounts. Artemis? Artemis Mounts. Oh, boy. Yeah, Mounts what? So during the altercation between them, Fields, the 19-year-old, or no, yeah, Fields is Clyde Fields, the other guy. Yeah, 45-year-old.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He steps up during all this and invites anyone here who wants to fight me, step the fuck up and fight me right now. He gives an open invitation to the whole bar to fight him. Taking all comers right now.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Either way, even if they're not armed, it's the middle of fucking West Virginia somewhere. Someone's going to go, I'll take you up on that. Sure. I haven't had a drink yet. Let's go. Let's do it. I just got off work. What have you two been up to? So I just came out of a coal mine, for Christ's sake. I'll whoop your ass.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Anyone who wants to engage in a fight with him to do so. So that's fucking amazing. So they tell him, you both have to leave the fucking building. Yeah. All right. So Fields, Clyde, the older guy, he says, sure, leaves the room but remained outside in the open space in front of the entrance.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia. Picture those bars.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, Daniels refuses to leave and tells the owner and his stepson that if he left, if you want me to leave, you're going to have to put me out of the fucking building to do it, pal.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So he's a little younger. He's more in his age range here. During which the stepson of the owner hits Daniels three or four times with a wooden nightstick. He said, you want to get put out? I'll fucking put you out.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, one of the blows striking his head and ear. Daniels was knocked to the floor, and while on the floor, he and the stepson here struggled to get a nightstick, to fight over the nightstick. So the stepson's on top of Daniels, and while both of them are on the floor, the stepson bashes Daniels in the head with a .32 caliber revolver.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Shirtless slot players and pill snorting off the back of a dirty toilet.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Which he drew from his pocket.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
After being struck with the revolver, Daniel says, all right, I had enough. Literally.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He is quoted as saying, I've had enough. Booze or beating?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Both. I've had enough of everything. So the fight between them ended and Daniels either rose to his feet or was helped up to the floor by the stepson here and walked out without assistance. And, you know, that was that. So he opens the door to the front entrance where the stepson pushed him through the doorway. So get the fuck out of here now.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
When he's pushed out, Daniels bashes into Fields, who was standing in front of the building there near the entrance, and both of them fell down.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This is so drunk that imagine that. You shove one drunk into another drunk and they both fall down.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They didn't invite me, and it smells good, too. They got ribs. That is downright rude. I smell groundhog cooking. All right, one star. Lived here for 20 years. The Princeton and surrounding areas have to become terrible. Have to become terrible. Okay. I think have become terrible, and they put two in there for some reason. The roads around here are extremely dangerous with no police presence.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Drunk in croquet now we're playing. This is hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I'm going to use the 19-year-old cue ball. We'll put the 40-year-old in the corner pocket there.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Both on the ground. Boom. Ah, look at me. I called it. Holy shit. So they both fell down. Daniels gets up and leaves the scene. But while walking away, he hears a gunshot. Oh. And he turns around, and he saw Fields, and he saw him put his hand to his stomach and fall to the ground. Oh. Fields did, the 47-year-old. Now, after Fields was knocked down, Daniels was pushed against him.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I guess he had arose or either stood up on the ground in the front of the door or approached the door and attempted to enter the building. But before he could get inside the building, the stepson, who stood inside the rear door, fired fire. inside the building near the door fired one shot from the revolver. And that's what struck fields in the region of his chest.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It passed entirely through his body through and through severing a main artery. Oh, and he dies pretty goddamn quick. He bleeds out there. Sure. So, yeah, the testimony from internal hemorrhages, the testimony of witnesses produced by the state was to the effect that Fields didn't even participate in the fight between Daniels and the stepson staff.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He left voluntarily and was just waiting for his friend outside. So they said they're charging him with murder. They're charging the guy with murdering him.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. He fucking shot him while he was outside not doing anything.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. They said that Fields made no threats and committed no hostile act against the defendant. All he did was ask for beer. They said, no, you guys got to leave. And he left.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So he didn't do anything. They said that while the defendant, I mean, this was after a fight, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Emotions are high. He did offer to fight anybody in the place. But then he left. It was over.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
With booze. This is the point. They said that he made no hostile act against the bar owner or anything. So that while the defendant here, the stepson, was near the door with the revolver in his hand, Fields swore at him and told the stepson that he was not scared of you or nothing you got and go ahead and shoot. And he said, all right, pow, and shot him.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You can't do that. You can't go, well, he asked for it. That's not okay.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He said it's all right. So each of the five witnesses produced in behalf of the state who were on or near the tavern and observed Fields testified that he did not see a knife in his possession before or when the shooting occurred.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
After Fields was shot, he did not go on to he didn't go to his assistants, but told someone nearby to take care of Fields, then went from the door toward the rear of the room. The stepson. So the stepson shot him and then was like, someone help him.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. By six witnesses, including the bar owner and her and the stepson and everybody testified on his behalf. The there's him. There's Noah Farrell, who is the stepfather, Jesse Farrell. I guess that's the mother of the defendant. And one other witness testified to the effect that on other occasions before the shooting occurred, there had been trouble between fields and the defendant.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And on each occasion, Fields made threats to kill him. And that Fields has made several similar threats outside the presence of the defendant, which were communicated to him before he shot Fields that day. They said he would tell other people, I'm going to kill that son of a bitch.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So other than the testimony of some of the witnesses that Fields was attempting to attack the defendant and to enter the building for that purpose with a knife or some instrument when the defendant shot him, there's no evidence that Fields was armed with any weapon ever attempted to execute any threat made by him to injure or kill the defendant.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He's just a drunk who was standing outside talking shit.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
There's all kinds of trash and debris everywhere. I'm giving it a one star town. It used to be a nice place to live, but no more. There's very little activity for children. It's pretty much right disgusting of a place. The crime rate is at no punctuation at all here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They had to say he started coming toward the door with a knife. That's why I shot him. That's just what they had to say. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh, I was a bouncer for a long time. I would have a body count of 300 fucking people on me.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Every fucking night. Oh, this lippy bitch. And this fucking big jacked up douchebag.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Hold on. Let me talk to the manager. Who do you think sent me here to throw you out? Stupid.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah, I don't fucking care. He said, get that guy out of here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That was a sports bar. You can wear anything you want in there.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
It's mainly just drunk guys groping girls. You have to throw them out for it.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Well, you had both hands on her ass. One on each cheek.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
You know, it just feels like adult stuff that you have to do. And thanks to Rocket Money, my goals feel achievable now. They show me all my subscriptions in one place, help me easily cancel ones I forgot that I've been paying for, which happened to me. Absolutely happened to me. For years, I was paying for something. I was like, what is going on here?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Oh, my God. Oh, shit. So everybody also on the defense side testifies to the effect that Fields was in the room in the fight between...
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
daniels and the stepson began or while it was in progress and that he threw a beer bottle at the defendant which either grazed or struck him still you can't shoot him 20 minutes later for that yeah you can't beer bottle anymore if he's throwing shit loads of them at you maybe you're allowed to shoot him then but if he had like a a huge supply if he's got an arm full of them and just chucking one maybe then but
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Not later. So they said that Fields, while standing in the door during the fight, called Daniels to give the defendant a good one. Said, yeah, give it to him good, you son of a bitch. Which, again, isn't a shooting-worthy offense. And also yelled to the defendant, I will kill you when this is over.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That is that when the defendant was standing near the door holding the revolver fields with a knife or some other instrument in his hand was standing with one foot on top of the step in front of the door. See what they described all that to you in front of the door of and the other foot on his way in and the other foot in the doorway.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They said that the defendant told fields not to come in the place again and that he would shoot him if he did. That Fields told the defendant that the defendant would not shoot him and that he didn't have enough guts to shoot him. Uh-oh. You ain't got the guts. And that he called him, quote, a vile name.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The crime rate is high with a bunch of drug overdoses. People are stealing items all the time. It really looks bad on the state for people visiting the area. There definitely needs to be more police on patrol. People are just doing as they please. Five exclamation points. That's the first punctuation we've come to. At one time, this town used to be very nice.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And that the defendant then shot Fields as he was attempting to enter the doorway. When the defendant was asked why he shot Fields, he replied, I was scared. He was aimed to kill me.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And when asked why he did not run from fields, he answered, quote, I had no place to run except run and run in where my family was.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I'm not running from shit. And I'm not going to take him. He's going to go and stab my mom now, I guess he's trying to say.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So he also testified that when Fields attempted to enter the doorway before he fired the shot, that he had one hand on the doorframe and struck at the defense and said that Fields had one hand on the doorframe and that Fields struck at me with a knife, which he had in his other hand. Nobody else saw this knife except for him and his father and the other people in the bar.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So Noah Farrell, the father, testified to the effect that while Fields was at the door, he had some kind of instrument in his hand, but the witness could not say it was a knife. Eddie Dodson, who was in his automobile at a filling station near the tavern where he went with his wife and two children for the purpose of getting gas produced in behalf of the defendant.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He testified that when he came to the filling station, he saw two men, one near the filling station, the other standing in the front entrance of the tavern. That's very descriptive. Gouging at something in there with something. Wow. That the witness then heard the shot but did not see who fired it and that the man at the door was shot.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He jumped backward, turned around and sank to the ground and that the witness then left the station in his automobile and didn't immediately make any report of the events to which he's seen. He watched a guy be shot to death and was like, back in the car, kids, let's go and just took off.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
The defendant and some of the witnesses who testified on behalf of the state as well as some of the witnesses who testified on behalf of the defense made and gave signed written statements concerning the matter in which the shooting occurred and what took place in the tavern before the shooting to a member of the Department of Public Safety who investigated the shooting shortly after it occurred.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Don't send homicide detectives or anything. Yeah. And these statements in some particulars differ from the testimony given at trial by each witness who signed a signed statement. Can't do that.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
During the argument of the case to the jury, attorneys representing the state commented upon the failure of the defendant to produce the knife at trial in support of their contention that Fields, when shot, didn't have a knife. They're like, where's the fucking knife then? If you shot him, he went down.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Yeah. They said upon substantially the foregoing evidence, the jury found the defendant guilty of murder in the second degree. Okay. And they they rejected the contention that he was shot in self-defense. And, yeah, he's to get 20 years for that. So he got 20 years. You, sir, may fuck off. He got 20 years in prison for a bar fight shooting.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I apologize to people visiting our area. Wow. Apologies. Yeah. Five exclamations after that apology, too. Population of this town, 5885. So less than 6000. It's a small area. It really is. Fifty one percent male, which is not normal. It's usually a few little extra female, but more male. But you get anywhere where there's like coal jobs and stuff. You have a couple more males.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
I just love a bar fight where someone goes, I'll fight anybody in this fucking play. Something about that really cracks me up and really makes me happy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Sent him to the tavern. And this is like a legitimate, I don't know, sort of legitimate, kind of. It's not a conspiracy murder for hire, which is... Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So on appeal here, they allege that after he was convicted of murder in the second degree, he learned that the knife possessed by Fields at the time of the shooting had been discovered in the possession of Julius Estep of Roseanne, Virginia, and that Estep and Condie Stanley of Mohawk, West Virginia, were eyewitnesses and knew that the knife possessed by Fields was removed from the place on the ground where it had fallen after Fields was shot.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That he didn't know Estep or Stanley and that they were present at the scene of the shooting until after the trial had ended and that he could not have discovered or learned of these new facts concerning the removal of the knife and the presence of these two men before or during the trial. So basically new evidence is what he's saying here.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
So the statements in the affidavits of Julius Estep and Condie Stanley, dated February 8, 1957, are to the effect that on the day of the murder, they were residents of Virginia, and that Estep was then employed by Knox Creek Coal Company. And when they made their affidavit, Stanley was hired by the Herbert Coal Company.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They said about 4.30 in the afternoon, while traveling through West Virginia to their home in Virginia, they stopped at DeLorme on the side of West Virginia Route. Oh, boy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
He then raved and cursed, waving the knife in his right hand, moved toward the door of the tavern, and at the time, another man appeared in the door of the tavern holding a pistol in his right hand and told the man with the knife not to come back in the tavern. The man with the knife advanced to the steps of the tavern, grasped the door with his left hand. Everybody seems to get that part.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
and had one foot on the door sill and thrust forward with the knife and that the man who held the gun backed away.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That at the time there was a shot and the man with the knife staggered backwards from the doorstep to the road for a short distance, placed his left hand near his chest and stomach, slumped to the ground, and that as he fell, the knife in his right hand slipped from his fingers and dropped to the ground. After the man fell to the ground, another man who Estep knew as Fonzo Blankenship. Great name.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
F-O-N-S-O. F-O-N-S-O. Fonzo.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
OK, Blankenship ran from the door of the tavern to the man on the ground and leaned over him and that the man on the ground asked for water. And they the people who ran people, witnesses here who ran across the road from the automobile to the place where the wounded man lay on the ground near the edge of the highway. They thought he was intoxicated and not seriously or mortally wounded.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They thought he was farting around. Estep saw the knife on the ground about a foot and a half to two feet to the right of the man and almost opposite his waist. The knife was open and the blade was exposed. Estep picked up the knife, closed it. It's a fuck. Are you stupid? Touched it. He picked it up, closed it, and put it in his own pocket.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That's a nice knife you got there. You call that a knife?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Wow. He said at the time, many people came in the front of the tavern and other people in the tavern came outside. They said they did not know the man who had been shot or the man who shot him. They just stole knives.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Median age is about five years higher than the normal. It's 43 here. Family here, it's less than the 50-50 are married. More people that are single with children. It's kind of a, yeah, less of a, seems like usually a small town like this has like, you know, high like quote unquote family numbers. And this doesn't. So that's interesting.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
They said when people congregated in the front of the tavern, the Afians became apprehensive that there would be further shooting and fighting. And for that reason, they hurried back to the automobile and continued out of there. that on the way they looked at the knife and talked about the shooting. Hey, I just stole a major piece of evidence from a murder trial.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And that Estep took the knife to his home, showed it to his wife. And put it in a jar on top of the refrigerator in his dining room.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And, yeah, he said the affiants were not in the neighborhood of DeLorme after that day and did not know that the man who had been shot had died or that the defendant had been tried and convicted of murder until they were informed of those facts by somebody else in February of 1957. And that's when they did these affidavits saying that. Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Here and the judge, though, in this, I mean, or the appeals court. Yeah. Pretty good piece of found evidence. Some idiot saying I stole the thing. They say, we don't believe that guy. We don't know him. No evidence he was even there or had a knife. Affirmed. Keep on keeping on.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And they send him back. So, wow. Justice in that one. But the first one is a little sketchy.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Didn't see it the first time, and I don't know, this fella here saying he's got it. It's on a jar in his kitchen. That ain't going to cut it. So there you go, everybody. That's West Virginia. Just wanted to squeeze in a little crazy day at the bar at the end there because that is just some wild shit.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
No, it is just different, dude. It's like this weird little podcast. Like a little like D-something zone.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
D-saturation zone where they're like, listen, we need coal from here. Y'all do whatever you want to each other or whatever the fuck's going on. Just as long as the coal gets on the rail cars, we're all right. That's how it used to be there. It's crazy. I don't know what's going on. They're still recovering from that basically.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
There you go. That is West Virginia. Hope you liked that show. If you did, you can tell the world about it by getting on whatever app you're on and giving us five stars and saying something lovely about us. It helps a lot. We don't ask. We usually don't. We don't ask for a lot, but that's something you definitely want to do. It really, really helps the show a lot.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Helps us drive up the charts, and that's the currency of this business. That's how it works there. Speaking of that, of the currency of our business, patreon.com slash crimeinsports is where you get all of your bonus material, and we have a ton of it. Anybody $5 a month or above, immediately upon subscription, you're going to get hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
popping right up, and then you get new ones every other week, too. One crime in sports and one small-town murder, and you just get it all. Just take everything.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We walk out, our pocket's empty. Episodes falling out of them.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Take it all. This week, what you're going to get for crime in sports, we are going to talk about the Kobe Bryant Colorado incident there. I don't know what else to call it, because we'll decide what we think about it. We have depositions, and we have the court case, and we're going to decide...
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Based on what everybody says, what we think and who the hell knows, because that kind of got pushed under the under the rug there. Then for small town murder, it is time again for Internet salad, which is where we're going to go around. Just whatever's online, whatever the stories are of the day, we're going to talk about them. We're going to fuck around on the Internet and just just find stories.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
Race in this town, 85.4% white, 6.6% black, 0.4% Asian, 3.8% Hispanic. And let's see here. The unemployment rate here is 7%, which is a good site higher than the rest of the country where it's hovering in the fours here, which is not uncommon for West Virginia because those jobs go away.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And it's a comedy show. We're just going to. It's to loosen everybody up. Anytime that we see that it's just political stuff going on, and in either direction, none of that shit matters, just constant political stuff, whether you're happy with what's happening or shit pissed off about what's happening, either way, it's just a lot of stress and it's a lot, so...
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We're going to tell you what's out there, what's going on, without you having to see 50 political stories because there will be no politics in this whatsoever.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
This is what we're bullshitting about before we hit the record button. This is so you can find it and hang out with us and be just like before an episode. So I would suggest listening to that, then listening to a regular episode.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
just like you're here why not so that's patreon.com slash crime and sports uh you also get a shout out which we'll get to the shout outs in a second but i do want to say head over to shut up and give me murder.com tickets for live shows are available and i'll tell you what pittsburgh february 7th you are the first show please buy the tickets because all the other shows are selling so much better than you honestly columbus is sold out the next night it's been sold out for a week we
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
In November, Portland is 99% sold out. Seattle's close. Washington, Philly, those are getting sold out.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
We just announced Madison like three days ago. It is gone just about. It's getting sold out. Very few left. Pittsburgh has more than a few left. Get your goddamn tickets, Pittsburgh. Get in there and come see us because we love it there and we like the crowds in Pittsburgh. That's why we go there. When our agents go, let's go here, we go Pittsburgh. And they go, really?
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
And we go, yes, we like it there. They go, all right, if you like it. And then they book us. So don't make jerks out of us is what we're saying. You're making us look dumb. So get in there. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all that shit and more. And also follow on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook.
Small Town Murder
#565 - The Fugitive Temptress - Princeton, West Virginia
That said, Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever have a huge murder conspiracy against us. And then.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, they gave her the jury record. This is the jury recommends it and then the judge gives it. So that's that. The jury voted for death for her, which is rare. She is literally the only woman on Oklahoma death row.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Only one. Just her. So she says, quote, the verdict which sentenced me to the death penalty is an egregious miscarriage of justice. I'm an innocent woman wrongfully convicted. That's right. She said, I love my children dearly and I'm a loving and gentle and compassionate mother. I noticed the supposed God fearing people who celebrated my death sentence. And I see that as human sickness.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Oh, you're judging people morally now. Shut up. You're a murderer. I agree with you, but I never killed anybody. So, you know what I'm saying? I can say that you can't.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's what it is, but it's still kind of flat. What are you going to do out there? You know what I mean? Honestly. Yeah. Things to do here. All right. We have Simpson's Old Time Museum. This is not an old time museum about the Simpsons either, which is what I thought, and I got excited.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, that's the point. And and tried to get money for it. So the district attorney said that he wasn't surprised by Brenda's comments. She district attorney said Ms. Andrew has shown absolutely no remorse for her criminal actions from day one. It certainly doesn't surprise me that she continues to show no remorse after being found guilty of murder.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And the other DA, Fern Smith, said the fact that she said the jury was wrong in what they did, that it wasn't based on the evidence, that her conviction was egregious, was disrespectful to the court and the jury. Now, she is the only person on death row, which means she's in solitary. There's nobody else there. It's just her.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She's the only one sitting there. Yeah. That's it. So Brenda appeals, obviously, based on I'm just going to go over the factors. I'm not going to go over what they are. Change of venue. She said they refused to do that. Hearsay evidence. That's why I was saying that hearsay exception before. That's the hearsay evidence. The brake lines cut. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Well, she said that James asked his daughter to call Rob to tell him that he needed to come to Norman to pick Brenda up at the hospital. It's an obvious attempt to get Rob to drive some distance with faulty brake lines. Brenda claims there was insufficient evidence linking her to this incident. So they also talk about her other affairs. She cites the Agatha Christie thing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Saying that was inflammatory. The main thing, though, is the thong and the slut puppy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's a tough one here. Also saying newly discovered evidence. It has nothing to do with the actual murder. Teresa Sullivan, the one who said she wasn't getting anything, the amount of the South here, actually, she got a new sentence after that and allowed her to be released five months after testifying, even though she had 22 months left on her sentence.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The sentence also, after reviewing the entire record, who's trying to get the sentence, she's saying she was sentenced to death because of an arbitrary factor, passion or prejudice. They're prejudiced based on slut puppy and things like that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So they find the Supreme Court or the court here says we find that there was sufficient evidence to support the finding of statutory aggravating circumstances as of a train, heinous, atrocious or cruel. Yeah. Fuck off. In other words. No. 2017. The James is appealing and a three judge panel in a two to one ruling overturn his death sentence. Really?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
On the grounds the state failed to prove the shooting death of Rob was especially heinous, atrocious or cruel. I mean, I think that's in the eye of the beholder, man. That's yeah.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
2019, though, the full 10th Circuit Court of Appeals voted 10 to 3 to overturn the three-judge panel and put his ass back on death row.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You could have it now. Yeah. So they say, visit Simpson's Old Time Museum and Skeleton Creek Productions movie studio. Okay. And step back into the old west. So it's like old Tucson, basically. Same shit with, you know, the fucking... Are there a lot of movies filmed in this area? Not that I know of. I don't know. I mean, maybe. I have no idea. You never heard about it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Much bigger. February 2020, Brenda's moved to Gen Pop.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Where according to her lawyer, she's doing great. She got a job. She joined a quilting circle.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Oh, boy. And she writes slut puppy on a big blanket. In January, two days after her attorneys filed the writ with the Supreme Court, she was returned to solitary given no reason. They said, we're going to let you fuck around. 2023, Brenda's federal appeals court here thing on federal appeals court.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The judges uphold her ruling despite the defense claiming an unfair trial and irrelevant information about her sex life and gender stereotypes. June 11th, 2024, supposed to be James's execution day, but Oklahoma Attorney General Gentner Drummond has requested that several of the upcoming scheduled executions be rescheduled to allow more time between them.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They're currently understaffed and preparing for an execution is time intensive. So he hasn't received a new execution date yet. So he's just being delayed.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The Attorney General. Oklahoma Attorney General. G-E-N-T-N-E-R. Gross. Very German, I think that is. Finally, January 22nd, 2025. Yeah. The Supreme Court of the United States. Big one. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
According to this decision says that the prosecution in Brenda's case, quote, elicited testimony about Andrew's sexual partners reaching back two decades about the outfit she wore to dinner or during grocery runs about the underwear she packed for vacation and about how often she had sex in her car.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The prosecutor also displayed her thong underwear to jurors while urging them to convict her of capital murder and calling her a slut puppy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They said that the argument here, they say this violated Payne versus Tennessee, a 1991 decision in which the Supreme Court made clear that the due process clause provides relief when evidence is introduced that is so unduly prejudicial that it renders the trial fundamentally unfair.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
A Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals decided that that pain exception did not qualify as clearly established precedent, but the Supreme Court disagrees and said that was wrong. Due process protects defendants from the introduction of evidence so prejudicial as to affect the fundamental fairness of their trials. The U.S. Supreme Court grants her relief and quashes her death sentence.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So it commutes it? I think they have to do either a resentence or a commution here. We're not sure. This just happened like two months ago. The court ordered the federal appeals court to assess whether the irrelevant evidence about her demeanor as a woman deprived her of a fundamentally fair trial. That was a 7-2 decision, by the way, on that one. I'll give you a guess of one of the dissenters.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I'll give you one hint. Brenda probably had a pube on her Coke can at the end of it there. Yeah. There is a site save Brenda Andrew dot org. Oh, there's all these save. Really? This has become a cause for like. But if you look at the narrative now, they completely take out of it that she's a murderer.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Hopalong Cassidy memorabilia, baseball collectibles, train sets, and a wide range of military items from the cavalry days through World War II. So just any old shit they can find, they throw in there. That's all cool stuff, but they usually have their own museums. Here it all is in one thing here.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Because like they didn't call James a slut puppy, but James is still on death row because he fucking killed somebody.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They're acting like now. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot which neither do I. But there's a lot of a lot of sites and a lot of people who think that she's should be just innocent because they called her a slut in court. It's like they were going to. Yeah, they're going to convict her whether she was a slut or not. They're going to convict her based on the evidence that had nothing to do with it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, it probably was inflammatory, though, to an Oklahoma City jury to all that. It could have very well been inflammatory. At least they think so. So either way, I don't think she's getting out anytime soon.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. Oh, she absolutely did it. Yeah. So there you go, everybody. There is, we'll say, Enid, Oklahoma, even though it's not. There you go. Hope you enjoyed that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, well, only if they bring it up, though. Only if otherwise you just got a bad taste in your mouth for no reason. If you enjoy the show, tell everyone about it. Get on whatever app you're on. Please give us five stars. It helps so fucking much. It takes 20 seconds. It takes so long to put these shows together. So please, please do that. Also, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Tickets for live shows, baby. 420 virtual live show. Saturday, April 19th, just like a regular live show, except you're in your living room. We got costumes, weed, the screen, pictures, everything. Can't wait for it. Also, tickets to the regular live shows. We have May in Chicago. Get your tickets right this goddamn instant for that one. Please, St.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Louis is sold out the night before, so don't find yourself in the same place that many St. Louisians are finding themselves. So do that. Get in there. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You are going to get so much stuff. Hundreds of back episodes immediately upon subscription of bonus things you've never heard before. There's so much good stuff. Then you get new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder and God damn it. You take them all. Just take them. You got it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
This week for crime and sports, we're going to talk about the Spanish Paralympic team that was not handicapped or disabled or whatever in any way, shape or form. And some other little weird scams in sports. Then for small town murder, American Nightmare. It's a documentary on Netflix and it's probably the craziest story I've ever heard.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They thought these people were faking a kidnapping, a la Sherry Papini. They called these people the Gone Girl people because they thought it was that, and it's a whole other thing, man. It is fucking wild.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. No other one. So it's crazy. So there you go. There is that. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. Plus, you get a shout-out at the end of the show, which happens right now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever call us slut puppies in court.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Happy birthday to you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Kyle, we love you, damn it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Back again, old Pat McCrotch.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, it's the senator from... That would be amazing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now we got a museum. They say they have their own indoor movie sets. Having their own indoor movie sets was always one of the goals of our production company. With this in mind and having space to build, we began our first movie set in 2003. Since that year, we've increased the number of our sets and now have, how many do you think? Seven. Several. They don't even say.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Listen to honky-tonk piano music and sip an ice-cold sarsaparilla in the 1880s saloon. Okay? If you get too rowdy, you might get taken to the marshal's office and thrown in our 1880s jail. Jesus Christ. Visit our 1880s hotel lobby complete with stairway and see our hotel hallway and authentic hotel room. It's just old time stuff here. Surrounding, what is this?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Oh, in the center of the museum is an authentic chuck wagon complete with a campfire and a cook.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, we really are. Crime rate in this area, what we are interested in here, obviously, property crime is about 50% higher than the national average. Oh. Shit is going down in Enid, man. Barring my ass, this place is hopping. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is exactly average. Oh. Exactly the national average.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So I don't know what's going on in this town that's making people so angry or so upset or whatever it is, but there's some shit popping off here. That said, damn it, let's talk about some murder.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, first of all, I have to say something here. This murder technically takes place within the boundaries of Oklahoma City. Now, the people are from Enid. They moved to Oklahoma City. Now, we did not realize, Team Small Town Murder did not realize that this took place because when you hear it and you see the pictures, it's in this neighborhood. It's not like downtown Oklahoma City.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It's out in the burbs and it looks very small townish. And then the people and the story, it's our show. It's Small Town Murder. Exactly. It actually technically takes place in Oklahoma City.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But the people are from Enid, and they're in northwestern Oklahoma City, which is technically on the way to Enid. So if you just go a little further, you're going to end up in Enid. We'll put it that way. So it's almost Enid, and we apologize for that. But like I said, when you hear the story, you're going to go, yeah, this is a small-town murder all the way, so it's fine.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But we apologize about the screw-up there. Either way, here we go. It's suburban town murder. Either way, it's out there. Let's talk about a woman first here. Brenda Evers, let's talk about. E-V-E-R-S, Evers. She's born on December 10th, 1963.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
just like a regular live show, except you can be anywhere in the world with internet, and you can watch it and buy it or do whatever you want with it for two weeks after the show, too. Very exciting. Get in there and do that, and also get your tickets for regular live shows. May, we are in St. Louis and Chicago. St. Louis has been sold out.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She is described in a newspaper article as growing up, quote, in white bread normalcy, living a life so vanilla it was as if she'd stepped right out of a 1950s sitcom. That's Brenda's growing up life.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Oh, yeah, that doily and just a lot of going down to the soda shop.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Making, like, food for all of the men in the house. You know what I mean? Make your brother some food. Oh, okay.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. She was raised in Enid. See, there's Enid. In a very conservative, very Christian household. Very, like, Christian-ish. And the family would... You know, do a big prayer before they ate and all that. Just kind of your standard middle-of-the-country kind of Bible Belt type of shit here. You know, big home-cooked meals and all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
One of her best friends from back in the day said she was just a typical sort of small-town girl. I mean, she was nothing out of the ordinary. That's what they say about her. Her family now, the Evers family... One neighbor said, I remember them being really quiet. The whole family was. They weren't very outspoken or anything. These are a stoic, quiet people here. Sure.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They said that a lot of that they thought might have been caution. You know what I mean? That's just how they were. I guess her sister, Kim, said that she and Brenda learned to be very private growing up because they have a severely mentally disabled brother.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And in the 60s, you basically hid that person in the attic. Like there was no, you know, people were a lot less likely to be, you know, just proud of their kids no matter what they are. And it was considered there must be something wrong with you or God cursed you or whatever it is. There was a real kind of a stigma with that for a long time. It's too bad. It is. And they said that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But she said it actually Kim said it actually helped them become stronger. Having a brother that had problems, she said, because of my brother, we've both been very strong individuals, very careful and very guarded, though. So a lot of a lot of private type of thing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
One of her friends said she loved hanging out with Brenda and thought her parents were really nice and she had a lot of respect for them. She said about Brenda's family, they were a lot like my family. So, you know, that's made me feel comfortable. In the seventh grade, Brenda enrolled in baton classes at Enid Twirling Academy. A whole academy just for twirling.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And this is in like 1970, so there's probably a shitload. I bet there was 15,000 people back then. They still had a twirling academy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Wow. There was eight to ten other girls her age at 6 p.m. every Wednesday. So they found...
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Chicago, still some tickets there at the Riviera, beautiful venue. Get your tickets for the rest of the year, too, because they're selling fast. I think San Diego, Madison, Portland, a lot of sellouts so far. Grand Rapids, so... Get in there if you'd like to go to a show. Definitely this year. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Listen to our other two shows as well. Crime in Sports, which we have.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Ten girls a Wednesday to do this. Her instructor said for her to take baton twirling in junior high, that's kind of a wholesome sport. She was from a very wholesome family. But these Belva Lamb, her senior twirling coach, said that she was, quote, an average baton twirler at best.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
everything about her right up the middle imagine no matter what you did if 35 40 years later they're like you know he really sucked at that when he was eight couldn't hit a t-ball for shit when he was seven i'll tell you that right now i still remember that dumb bastard yeah he wasn't very good he just this kind of a non-achieving just a real right at the middle useless fuck
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Kind of a loser he was. I'm not going to lie. I mean, I could tell. I looked at the eight-year-old and I said, the kid's a loser. He's never going to get any better.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I'm sure there's somebody who's got that quote locked and loaded for me. I'm sure. But she's really good at schoolwork, and she's very nice to her friends. She gets good grades. One of her friends said she was one of our little group of students who all got straight A's. She played the trumpet and twirled for the band. She didn't talk about boys very much.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
just real i mean this is like she's frustrated she can't yeah can't fucking figure out this trumpet or that fucking baton but she's going to high school in like the 70s though this is like you know dazed and confused times and she's active this is like she's in the 40s you know what i mean it's a totally different disconnect so brenda was not that she should be out like sucking dick and doing drugs i'm not saying that i'm just saying i don't know maybe
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
there's a different lifestyle going on i mean this is post woodstock for christ's sake you know it's just a different deal uh her friend said she was interested in school studying going to church and helping others she was always the first one to offer to help she's also really good in home ec class cooking cooking and sewing that yeah yeah or especially her her specialties here um this iron's like a bastard jesus oh you never never know anything about that
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Can't twirl a baton. Even. Even iron. Just even. No wrinkles, no burn marks. Oh, forget about it. Like a trumpet. A layer cake like a queen. So the problem is none of this, she's not good socially really. She has friends, but it's like her little group of like smart kid friends and that's that. Some people considered her kind of an oddball. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
One of her classmates named Brad said there wasn't much associating with her. She was so quiet and shy. She went to the football games, of course, but she never went out to the parties with us afterwards. Yeah, she'd go home once the game was over. He then said she never drank or smoked or anything like that. She was always real meticulous in how she dressed, real conservative.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She always buttoned her clothes all the way up.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
All the way up to the neck, baby. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It's looking like it's going to be about a nine or ten part Evil Knievel series going on right now. So you don't have to like sports. You just have to like crazy people to enjoy that. And also listen to Your Stupid Opinions, where we talk about some of the craziest reviews of anything and everything on Earth. So it's a lot of fun. Then you should get Patreon. Patreon.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You cover your collarbones. No one wants to see that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
No, no, no, no. Save some. No, you can't. If you have any room open, then Satan can get right in there. That's how it works. The devil just jumps right in. Once he's in there, you want to lock them all up, make sure he stays. So in 1982, she's a senior in high school, and she's starting to be less shy when she gets a senior in high school here.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And she began dating a man here, or a young man, I should say. He's a year older than her, so not like anything untowards going on. She began dating a man named Rob Andrew. who was about almost two years older than her. He studied advertising at OSU. So he went to Oklahoma State. Cowboy. Cowboy there. That's the college. And he's just rooting for Barry Sanders like he wouldn't believe.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So Brenda met Rob at the swimming pool during summertime, is what Brenda's sister Kim said. So he got to see everything on display. I mean, granted, she was wearing a full wetsuit buttoned up to the top. I mean, it was... She was real buttoned up. But still, yeah, she had one of those like 1910s, like, you know, down to the knees outfits on.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But she said, like Brenda, Rob came from a tight knit religious family as well. So same thing. Her sister said, I think their values are pretty much the same, even though he was Baptist and she was Lutheran and were their religious beliefs. They were a lot alike. Yeah. Wow. Being a non-religious person, it's all the same. It's the same book.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
If you're in whatever sect it is, you'll notice the tiny differences. But from the outside, you're all praying in the same place. So it seems similar. Same book. Same guy. And like I said, that's just my ignorance of the matter. But still. But in their religious beliefs, they're a lot alike, which you'd imagine so. So Brenda graduates from high school and she's dating Rob Andrew here.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Robert is his full name. And his younger brother, I guess, used to frequent the same pool as Brenda. And that's how she met him. This is Rob's brother. Tom said she always asked me about him. I went back and told him, quote, this chick at the pool has been asking about you. Oh. That's how they met. Hey, there's a little hot piece of number here at the pool. Hot piece of number.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Hot piece of number. You get three or four of those layers she's wearing off, I think she's got something going on under there. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Hot piece of number. She's a... God, I'm an idiot.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports. Tell you right now, the best bargain in podcasting. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get a whole lot. First of all, as soon as you subscribe, you're going to get hundreds and hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before immediately upon subscription. Then you get new ones every other week.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Oh, man. So this is another friend said, I'm not surprised he fell for Brenda. She was so kind and sweet and so soft-spoken, but he was a catch.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's the brother talking.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Look at Brenda getting married now.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And they get married. What church are they getting married in? That's the thing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The Redeemer Lutheran Church in Enid. So he said, listen, whoever's got more buttons wins. I can't compete with her. She's buttoned.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He does, yeah. They seem to really love each other, too.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's great. So they start setting up their life here. They lived and worked in Oklahoma City. Then they relocated to South Texas, where Rob got a job down there. Rob went to school for advertising, and he gets a job in advertising, and... Later on, he'll be an advertising executive and make a six-figure salary back and do pretty well for himself here.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So Brenda stayed behind in Oklahoma as he settled in, and then she quit her bank job in Oklahoma and followed him down there. Houston or what? I think it's outside of Houston, I believe. So she found work at a bank down there and, you know, made some friends and all that kind of shit. And now they settled in and became part of the fabric of the community wherever they were. Now, Rob, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder, and how much of that do they get, Jimmy?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It was less religious at one point than he became or he had like a lapse in it or something here. Because, yeah, one of his friends said that, quote, I knew he was a Christian because we had covered that ground early on. But I also knew that he lived on that ragged edge and he liked to party.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. This is how he described to his friend how he was going to change his partying ways. He went to his friend and he said, on this day, this is his friend quoted here, Rob wanted me to know that things were different. He held up a Susan B. Anthony silver dollar and asked, do you know the story of the Susan B. Anthony silver dollar?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Every drop of it. That's right. This week for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about some cheating scandals, including maybe the craziest thing I've ever heard, the Spanish Paralympic team where no one was actually disabled in any way, shape, or form. We'll talk about all of that. Then for Small Town Murder, honestly, one of the craziest stories I've ever heard in my life.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And he said, I replied, of course, I've seen them and have passed many through my hands. And he said, Rob said, no, no, that's not what I mean.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, I know. Yeah. So do you know why they stopped making them? Which he really should have started out with that. Be specific. The story of the dollar is that's that sounds like the origin. Yeah. Fuck. That's vague. Yeah, that's vague. So the guy said, no, not really. But I'm sure you're going to tell me about it. You know, let's go after it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So Rob said, look at this one. He held it in full view, then reached in his pocket and pulled out a quarter and said, see, see how closely the quarter and the dollar are in size and appearance, which is true. This guy said, I examined them with astonishment. Yeah, they are pretty close. He never noticed this before. He's had them in his hand, but never noticed. That's about the size of a quarter.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Anything that's that size, yeah, it's about the size of a quarter. Like, I think you'd notice that. So he said he explained further, people were always confusing them for quarters. They often passed in change as quarters.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
By accident. So this guy said, I scratched my chin and looked at him with an expression that said, I suppose there's a point to this, but waiting. Summit Mount, what's your point? Any minute now. Tap, tap, tap, motherfucker. What do we got? So he said he continued they were discontinued because they were too much alike and people were giving up dollars for quarters.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And he said the guy goes on to say then the real reason for Rob's conversation with me was revealed. Rob said, quote, I was a Susan B. Anthony dollar. He's really making some analogies and doing some metaphor here. People wanted me to attend parties because I always brought the party to life. And a lot of people said he was the life of the party back in high school and college and shit.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Life of the party guy. He said, I told jokes and brought the liquor. And to everyone at the party, I was one of the gang. So the guy says, now the look on Rob's face grew grave and tears formed in his eyes. And he said, Rob said, when I heard the Susan B. Anthony dollar story and why it was canceled, I knew it was me. I'm the dollar that was mistaken for a quarter. I cheapened myself.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yes. He's passed off with the rest of the quarters out there, you know, drinking and having fun in college, doing normal shit.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Documentary on Netflix called American Nightmare. And I read the whole I read a book about it, too, like a 12 hour audio book. It's a lot. And it is kind of you think it's a Sherry Papini situation. It's a stage kidnapping and people are lying. But then maybe not. But then maybe it's crazy. Oh, my God. I can't wait to tell the story. It's going to be so much fun. Patreon dot com.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
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Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
slash crime in sports. So check all that out and more over there. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. That said, disclaimer time. Here we go. Yes, Jimmy, you'll mispronounce your name on that shout out. Real good. Don't worry about that. Disclaimer, it's a comedy show. We are comedians and we will make jokes.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But that doesn't mean that the story isn't 1000 percent completely real in every detail. Nothing is exaggerated for comedic effect or anything stupid like that. No, no, no. We we stay on it. And what we do is here. There's a lot of jokes to make. That's the thing. Here's what we don't do, though. We don't make jokes about the family or the victim or the victim's family.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. See how that works there? Yeah, there's plenty to make fun of. The fact that someone's going, I think I can get away with this with zero murder experience. That's a crazy thought right there and plenty to make fun of. We'll talk about all that and more.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, this is family friends. Rick isn't divorced from his wife yet. This is two intact couples and the two partners here are going to go after each other.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Oh, Destroying Trivial Pursuit Night. Destroying Trivial Pursuit Psalm Edition. Is there one of those? Probably. It should be if there isn't because I bet it would sell. So this continued and goes on and on and on for a while. And other people started to notice it, too. This goes on for over a year, this affair. This isn't one and done.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
A little bit. Jennifer Jones, who was a college student at the time and a nanny back then, She babysat for Brenda and recalled two occasions when she sensed something odd was going on. She testified that once Brenda told her that, I'm going to go get groceries. And she left wearing a tight leather skirt and top to go to the grocery store.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Well, when she returned, she had no groceries and wasn't wearing her wedding ring.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, we might not be the show for you, but we might be. That's the other thing. You never know.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Well, that's actually the next line, as she said, and her hair...
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
was a miss incredibly disheveled she came back with disheveled hair no groceries and minus a wedding ring i mean she might as well have a hand mark on her ass you know what i mean like why don't you just carry your panties inside oh she might as well walked in and said do you have an extra morning after pill no okay spinning your undies on your finger yeah like a six shooter
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Spinning them like a six-shooter. But they had plenty of man. All out of groceries.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Plenty of man. And Rick Nunley over here knows Rob really well. They're buddies. They go fishing and shit together, and he's screwing his wife. This is pretty bad shit for everybody involved here. It's pretty fucked up. Another time, Brenda left wearing a, quote, provocative dress, and Jennifer Jones said, I felt like something was going on, and I did not want to be a part of it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I don't want to be here just to help this lady cover up her affairs.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Give it a try and no complaining later because you've been warned. That said, I think it's time, everybody. Let's go. Let's all sit back. Let's clear the lungs here, arms to the sky, and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You've done Jenny Jones.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I want to know it all. Tell me. So I staged a fucking surprise ambush.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
of rob to tell him that his friend and his wife are fucking each other another guy named rod lot who uh used to work for rob at jordan and associates he said that he often accompanied rob on business trips to tulsa and he said that he and rob once um he asked rob once why he never told brenda he loved her when they ended phone calls you don't tell your wife i love you at the end of your call
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. Lott said, quote, he said he tried to do that when they first got married, but she said it made her feel uncomfortable and told him not to do it. I don't want to tell you I love you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, it makes me feel real weird. Oh, man. So he also said, this friend said, quote, they hadn't had sex in years. Oh. He would come home and see lingerie that was bought and he'd get his hopes up and he'd get his feelings hurt in the end. Where's the lingerie going? If you come home and you see there's all this sexy underwear and it's never on or you'd be like, what the fuck is happening here?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Hey, why don't you put that one thing on? Oh, I left it at, I mean.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Good God. So that affair ends in about 1997. Or 98, I'm sorry, started in 97, ends about mid-98. Then, in 2000, she has an affair with the dude who works at the grocery store. James Higgins is his name, and I guess he has about a 16-month affair with Brenda as well. Wow. He said that Brenda used to come into the store flirting with him and wearing, quote, low-cut tops and short skirts.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Then one day, this is incredible, by the way, if you work at a grocery store and you're like a young guy and you see like, you know, like these housewives coming in and some of them are like, you know, sexy. You're like, man, one of them is going to ask to hook up with me one of these days. It's some weird, you know, teenage fantasy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Well, quote, one day she brought him a motel key and handed it to him and winked. And that was that. It was on.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's some shit that happened to Frank Sinatra in 1958, like some women after a Vegas show would throw him a hotel key.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Can you imagine? While you're stocking the Froot Loops, this lady's like, here you go. Wow. What the fuck? Yeah. She gave him a key to a motel room. They met that afternoon at the motel room. And then these type of meetings occurred several times a week during those two years. This wasn't like once in a while. This was like every day. They also had sex at her home, you know, the family home.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And in the car as well. You know, sometimes you just can't get a location. You just got to throw down in the front seat.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She also told him that she wished Rob was dead. Now, if you're this Higgins guy, you're going, anyway, you're not in this for all this seriousness.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
We're going to Oklahoma here, middle of the country madness, baby. We are going to Enid, Oklahoma, and we will explain a little bit more about the town stuff after we get done with the town stuff. But for now, we'll start off Enid, Oklahoma, northwestern Oklahoma. It's about an hour and a half to downtown Oklahoma City from Enid. Okay. About an hour 45 to Tulsa.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Wow. So that's amazing. So the affair continues. She ends up breaking things off with him in about May of 2001. But the problem is she broke up with him because there's somebody else. And it's not her husband.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
We'll talk about that. But there's other things that people say about Brenda in the neighborhood. And I'm going to say, first off, this is a very conservative religious area. And people expect a different... I don't know. They're a little judgier in terms of sexuality, in terms of just having any sexuality at all here at the time. But it's still like the year 2000. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
In the United States of America. So it's really weird to be like, look at her with her skirt on. Who cares?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Married and fucking people from the grocery store is one thing, but going out in a skirt is a completely different. Who cares? That's not an issue. Very normal. Non-issue. But here's some stuff that happened here. There were neighborhood boys that were doing some work on the Andrew family deck. I guess they were painting it or doing something.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They came home and told their mother that Brenda had come on to them. The group? These were like 15-year-olds. Yeah. Like, she came out being all fucking, you know, whatever. I don't know. Who wants some lemonade type of shit here? I've seen that corner. That's what I mean.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, the movers are a bit, or pizza delivery, which is the most unrealistic one because he's got other orders he needs to go deliver.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Someone's getting cold wings is what I'm saying in the end.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Although when I was a teenager, I delivered pizza, and one time I delivered to this motel in Fishkill, and this lady opened the door. She was like probably 45 or whatever. I was like 17. She opened the door just nude.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
and i just i not i wasn't into it because she was like older than my mom so i was just like that'll be 14 and like i was pretended like she wasn't naked it was the weirdest thing through the pizza box james hey i brought you pizza for you what do you say extra sauce it's extra so you would you want italian sausage on that i got you covered honey
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So she also told a friend of hers that she liked having workmen at her house and used them to babysit. What? Watch my kids for a minute. I'm going to go hook up with the guy from the grocery store.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, like roofers and shit. Yeah, that's who you want with your kids.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. Apparently at one point she heard that a guy she knew liked redheads, so she dyed her hair red and told her friend about it. Okay. And then at another time, this is non-sexual completely, during an argument with a plumber, she threatened to kill him. Which I don't think a lot of plumbers get death threats from housewives, so she's like, this is wild.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So anyway, she breaks up with the grocery store guy, James Higgins, to find another James, a guy named James Pavitt. P-A-V-A-T-T, or Pavott, however you want to fucking say it. James. Yeah. He's born in 1952, so he's about 11 years older than her. Yeah. He's an insurance broker at Prudential he works for. He's described in a newspaper as, quote, an Arkansas native.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So right between a rock and a hard place there, right between the two. Yeah. Tulsa has, I believe, the most terrifying first 48 episodes ever. Every one of them is terrifying. It's about an hour and 20 minutes also to Sealing, Oklahoma, which was our last Oklahoma episode, episode 535, The Murder Bones Mystery. Sure. That was a wild episode. This is in Garfield County. Area code 580.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Pavat had the aw shucks grin of a schoolboy and a face that would look at home in a bluegrass festival. He seems as harmless as dry wheat toast and about as memorable. This is hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The preacher that at the church he attended every week said that he remembered Pavitt existing but couldn't really recall anything he ever said. That's how nondescript you are.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Like I know he's been around. But, like, you know what I'm saying? I don't know anything he's ever said at any point in time. So that's interesting. Now, he was in the Air Force for a while, and he was, I guess, a police officer in the Air Force, like an MP there. And he was at Tinker Air Force Base for a while in the 80s.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He tells everybody he was in the Special Forces and killed a bunch of people, but his military records don't mention any of that. So...
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Anything you ever said.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
No, no, no. Actually, I remember something he talked about. Something to do with Jesus. I'm not sure exactly, but I'm pretty sure that was the thrust of the conversation. We were getting at there. So other people have said that James told them he had a second or a secret job in which he killed people as well. Who tells people that, first of all?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So before he worked for Prudential Life Company, he attended the University of Oklahoma, then enlisted in the Air Force. He's a military police officer from 74 to 95. We're talking career Air Force guy. He served in Korea, Guam, Alaska, Mississippi. He picked up a wife in Korea, too, we'll talk about. He does. He has a Korean wife. He also did a multi-year stint at the Tinker Air Force Base.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Records do not indicate that Pavitt saw combat or received any specialized commando training, as he claims. In fact, aside from basic training, he attended only three other courses, including two academies for non-commissioned officers and a supervisory development course. So, like, yeah, like administrative shit, not like, you know, this is how you break a neck like Steven Seagal in a movie.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The motto for Enid, they have several.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Like, one hand next to that. That's how you do it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, how do they meet? Well, Rob and James. She noticed him. Rob and James are both church deacons. Isn't that nice? And they know each other real well. And then she's, oh, here's my lovely wife. Oh, that's great. And then he's like, I'd like to also have sex with her. Yeah. So the Pavitt and Andrew's families socialize together. Yeah, they ate dinner at each other's houses and all that shit.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Rob Andrews' brother, who rode in a truck with James Pavitt for hours on a hunting trip, didn't think he'd ever met this guy. This is crazy. He never thought he met the guy until later on when he saw them on videotape together. Even though he had spent hours in a truck with him on a hunting trip. That's how nondescript he is.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Which, I mean, sure, I'll buy that. You seem like there's probably a lot growing there. The Queen Wheat City of Oklahoma. They're really leaning on the wheat. If you're the capital of the United States, you're obviously the queen wheat city of your state. And then, I don't even know what this is, the Purple Martin capital of Oklahoma.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You're in a three-by-three enclosed space with someone for hours and you don't remember them.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Wow. This guy is just forgettable. That is crazy. This is wild. Even James Pavitt's attorney called him a, quote, little poindexter guy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So he doesn't seem like the type of guy where you'd be like, marriage be damned, I need that cock. It just doesn't seem like that kind of guy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She won't even know I'm down there, for Christ's sake.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He has like 45 kids, but he doesn't pay any child support because none of the women can remember ever having sex with him. It's incredible. It's wild. So Brenda and James started teaching Sunday school classes together. And obviously the mix of the children and the Jesus got them all horned up for each other.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
If you can't get all sexified when you're teaching Jesus to children, I don't know when you can, really. On a Sunday morning, also. None of these things lend to any sexuality. So they do. They began having a sexual affair at this point. Around this same time, conveniently.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The Brenda tells Rob he really should get some life insurance, I think, and you should get it through with Prudential James. You know, he can hook you up. So Rob ends up with a life insurance policy worth about eight hundred thousand dollars.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's a pretty decent one. But he makes good money. So, I mean, it makes sense. He's making 150 grand a year or something. So it's it's fucking wild. So anyway, he's got his James sells him this policy. And Brenda is the beneficiary, obviously. Now, over the summer, this summer of 2001, after they start hooking up, James divorces his wife.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Oh, yeah. He serves her with divorce papers. Prudential dork is done. He's done. Suck Hugh Pavitt is his wife's name. S-U-K. I'd marry her too. You know? Separate name, H-U-I. Yeah. Yeah. Suck Hugh. I mean.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He met her and he was like, no, no, no, no, I don't want that. She was like, that's my name. And he's like, I don't have any money.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yes, ma'am. So, yeah, she was shocked when her husband brought up a divorce, she said. Shocked. I'm sure. I bet. She's like, I've been doing it all. She said that at first James told her that he wanted a divorce because she didn't get along with his family.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Is that a euphemism for a hard-on? I don't know what that is exactly. I'm not sure. So a little bit of history quickly here. Prior to the land run of 1893, the land where Enid is was part of O County in the Cherokee outlet and was occupied by the Cherokee people following the Trail of Tears. Yikes. Yeah, they were sent here. It was then known as Skeleton. Okay, this place.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Like, that's not getting along. So James then said the divorce was for her protection at that point. Listen, I didn't want to tell you this. It's not about my family. It's actually for your own protection because of problems with his previous duty in the Special Forces. You know, like the Musads after him or something. They heard. Yeah, I don't know what's going on.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's crazy. Suk-Hyu said, he said, I know, Suk, I'm sure it is, but still. Suk-Hyu sounds like, just sounds like a Korean version of Suk-Hyu. So fucked. So she said, quote, he said Korea was the only place that was safe in the whole world and sent her to Korea. Go back to Korea.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She said she stayed a short time in Korea before returning to Oklahoma City because he told her that he had made the biggest mistake of his life later on. Then she said, when I got back there, she said, I found a different man than I knew before. She said, quote, he wasn't the same Jim I knew for nine years. He was the most kind person while we were married. Something was not right with him.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So he switched it up a little bit here. Now, through all of this, Rob is not an idiot. That's the other thing. Rob suspects that his wife and James are having an affair. He just does. I mean, it's got to be kind of obvious. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, Suk-Yoo said – I'll say it like that. She said that James denied having an affair with Brenda because she confronted him, too. Are you having an affair with the church lady? No, I'm not. Okay. While in South Korea, she said she received divorce papers from James to sign and return, and they were divorced September 6th.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She came back and then went back to Korea and then he just mailed her divorce papers. Take these. She said that, yeah, he was just a different guy when she had come back to Oklahoma. She said he was nervous. He wasn't the same person. Yeah. Nervous you're going to catch me plowing Brenda here. She said that he said that the other thing is he said you have to go back to Korea because
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I want I need to protect myself and protect you. And suck you said he said Rob was accusing him of something. So now she also his wife also said that they had money problems about thirty thousand dollars in credit card debt. Oh, that's rough. And in 2001, that's even more money.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. So she yeah, she said when she learned about the debt in January 2001, she made arrangements with the credit card companies to make specific monthly payments in an effort to pay off the bills. Do a structured. Yeah. They were, I guess, paying fifteen hundred dollars a month on credit cards trying to pay it back.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That is rough. She said, I had to drop out of school to pay off the credit cards. I asked him if he paid my school off. He said he did, but he didn't for the divorce.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Enjoy. Terrible. She said, I believed him 100%. He was the most lovable man in the whole world. I still care for him. Well, that's going to be crazy. Then also she said that James, to get her back to Korea... To get her an airline ticket to Korea since they don't have any money, James, quote, borrowed a credit card from Brenda and Rob.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So he said, I need money to send my wife back to Korea so we can fuck at my house. And she was like, well, use my Amex. And that was that. So September 19th, 2001, Brenda and James are brought into the principal's office there at the North Point Baptist Church because of concerns about their actions. And they are told they are not allowed to teach Sunday school anymore.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You're two married people fucking each other in the well, I guess one married person now.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Then that's in September 19th in the next 10 days or so before the beginning of October. Brenda asks Rob to move out of the house as well. They have a nice house too. It's like a 6,000 square foot fucking house. It's a nice, it's a big old house, man. It's nice.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You could just ignore the person if you don't like them. Just stay on the other side of the house. There's three houses in there. It's like 6,400 square feet. That's three decent-sized houses. Two big houses, three nice houses. It's big. And he does. He moves out. A next-door neighbor recalled seeing James' truck at the residence with increased frequency after that. Then he was stopping by.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And then in 1889, some guy from the railroad said, that's a terrible, what is it called, skeleton? That's crazy. So he renamed the station, the railroad station, Enid, after a character in Alfred Lord Tennyson's Idols of the King. As we, you know, we all know that, obviously. Very well aware. I don't know. So that is how it happened.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They said it was very common to see James' truck in the Andrews driveway when shortly after Brenda had put the kids on the school bus. He pulls right in. Man, that is crazy. James also, for some reason, told his adult daughter, Jana, or Yana, J-A-N-N-A. Is that Yana?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Jana? Jana. Yeah, it's Oklahoma. It's Jana. told his adult daughter, Jana, that he was having a sexual relationship with Brenda. I bet you can't wait to tell your daughter about your sexual relationships. I have an adult daughter. I would never tell her anything about sex, about me. I'm not telling her sexual relationships. She doesn't want to know, and I don't want to tell her.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But even if you were with somebody and you wanted her to meet them, you wouldn't be like, I'm having a sexual relationship with her. She just probably assumed that, I would assume.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I go down on her. No, she's reciprocal. She returns the favor.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So he also told Jana that his plan was to marry Brenda and have a child with her. I'm going to fucking put one.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I'm going to put one in the oven there.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Starting all over, even though I've already started all over. Yeah. From your mom. This is the third time. So Brenda continued to talk about.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
about to anybody that she could especially even the grocery store guy who she's not even having an affair with anymore about that she hates Rob hates her husband at one point she told him I don't know if this is you know right outside the fucking Red Baron frozen pizzas or what but she told him that she wished Rob would just die so she could get the money and go on with her life anyway lemons two for one yeah
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So October 1st, 2001, remember Rick Nunley, the first affair she had there? Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, Brenda and Nunley, for some reason, she keeps in contact with him on the phone all the time. She's always talking on the phone with this guy. It's like a dick in a glass case. It's a case of emergency break. Break glass and you got this. So they did that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Nunley met Brenda in downtown Oklahoma City about the 1st of October, and Brenda told him that she's going to get a divorce. That's what she said. She's going to get a divorce. Rob moved out of the house. At some point during the month of October here, Brenda told Nunley that she was upset about Rob trying to change the beneficiary on the life insurance policy. We'll find out why.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Cell phone records indicate that 87 phone calls between Brenda and Nunley were completed during the months of September, October, and November 2001. It's about 30, about one a day that averages. You talk to this motherfucker every day. Every day. Every goddamn day. Outside of my wife and probably you, there's not a lot of people I talk to every day.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You know, like that's every day is a lot to my mom every day. No, no. She's sick. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's a lot. It's every day is a lot. It's just you really got to want that. Now, October 3rd, 2001, Brenda files for divorce. Officially, Rob doesn't want a divorce. He wants to get back together. That's what he wants. He told his friends Brenda could have the house, the money, whatever, but he just wants to be able to share custody of the kids. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He just loves the kids and he doesn't want to lose the kids. So October 26th, 2001... Our first police involvement happens here. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But there's actually a different story of how the town got his name. That's more fun, actually, than that. And dumber. One is about like some literary thing, a classic. And then this is this. According to this tale, in the days following the land run, some settlers decided to set up chuck wagons and cook for people that were coming by. Little roadside first roadside diners type of thing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Absolutely. We got worse shit happening here.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So on this day, he spotted some fluid under his car when he went to get in his car. And he's getting in his car for a very specific reason, because he's been called and told to go somewhere because Brenda's been hurt in a car accident. Oh, my. Been told to go to the hospital. But he spotted fluid under his car.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So he drove to a repair shop that was very close by, and they told him, your brake lines have been cut. Yeah, how'd you make it here? Yeah, they were like, I guess it was still in the lines. Whatever was in the lines. So they said, your brake line's not ripped. Cut clearly intentionally, obviously. Someone cut them. They don't just explode in a perfect cut.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. So Rob calls 911 because he's like... That's attempted murder. He says to the 911 operator, tells her what happened, then says, that sounds like attempted murder, don't you think?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Someone tried to kill me, right?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So, yeah, he started, I guess, him and Brenda have been fighting as well. She's been flooding him with accusatory calls and leaving messages on his answering machine that are really nasty and yelling at him and openly telling everyone she knows that she hates him openly.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So he tells police that he thought that Brenda and James were plotting to kill him. They said, that's who cut my brake lines. This is fucking nuts. He goes, I got phone calls. The reason I was even going anywhere to find out my brake lines were cut is I got mysterious phone calls. telling me that Brenda was in the hospital and was in a car accident. So that's what this was.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And we'll find out where those phone calls came from. He got phone calls from a man and a woman telling him this. You need to go to the hospital and get Brenda or go see Brenda. So, yeah, he tells police that he suspects his wife and James are having an affair.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He says that James is very angry with him and, quote, has talked about being a special forces commando and that he's killed numerous people while in the military.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. That's the go-to there. Yeah. That's how he took down Hitler. That's what it was.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It wasn't, you know, just the Russians and us invading. It wasn't a D-Day or any of that stuff. Brake lines. He went right off a cliff. Right off a cliff like a soap opera. Whee! Poof.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
This week in Enid, Oklahoma, the horribly cruel murder of a well-liked church deacon seems like an awful random attack, but there's actually a tangled web of plot that makes the whole thing so much more dastardly. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So, yeah, this is good that he notified the police anyway. He told his friend, though, it feels like he has a target on his back now. He has to check his car before he gets in it like a gangster.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You know, like, you want to start my car for me? So the next day... Brenda called Rob after the brake cutting incident and said that she read in the newspaper that someone cut his brakes. Are you okay? In the newspaper? It was not in the newspaper. No media covered it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She figured it would be a story, but it wasn't. And the only people who knew that the brake lines were cut were Rob, the mechanic, the police, and fucking Brenda, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You fucking asshole. So that's interesting. Now, another thing is the insurance here. After his brakes were cut, he inquired about removing Brenda completely as a beneficiary.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So the problem, this is fucking wild here. He asked James that because James is his insurance guy. So he thinks James just tried to kill him. But yet he goes to James because that's his insurance guy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
First food trucks. Yeah, first food trucks. They hung a sign that said dine.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So this is fucked up. At one point, by the way, there is a change of ownership form that's backdated to 2001. That's going to be suspicious. But anyway, Rob goes and tells and says to Jamie James, he wants to change it. Now, James tells him you can't change it because you're not the owner of the policy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's not true, though. No. So Rob then went to James's boss... And said, can I change this beneficiary? You know, what the fuck here? And the guy said, of course you can. It's your policy. You're the owner of it. You pay for it. You can change it to anybody you want. You can have Michael Jackson get it if you want. He wasn't dead yet. I don't give a shit who it is. It doesn't matter.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So they said that when James found out that Rob had went over his head at work, he was furious and called Rob up and said, quote, if you think you have problems with Brenda, you haven't seen anything until you've messed with me.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, while all this is going on, Rob is keeping a journal. This is his prayer journal, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That would have been amazing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Who did Ed McMahon work for besides Johnny Carson?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
What's the name of the people who come to the door?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And they said some of the people turned the sign backwards, and then it read Enid, and that's the name stuck. But that's not true. But they find that to be a better origin story than a literary reference. They're like, I like that better. Okay. You know, books and stuff. Never mind that. Here is five reviews of this town since we've never been here. We don't know anything about it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
No, he worked for another one that popped up to compete with Publishers Clearinghouse. And everyone thinks that Ed McMahon worked for Publishers Clearinghouse. He has never worked for Publishers Clearinghouse for a day.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Isn't that amazing? Get out of here. I just heard that the other day.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
One of the guys who was running Publishers Clearinghouse wrote a book and was like, everyone thinks it's Ed McMahon. Never Ed McMahon. He goes, but we got the most free advertising out of that because you just put him with that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Here's five stars. Like I have said before, where? Okay. You're in public now. Like I've told my family for years. Great.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Like I have said before.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
This is the first time. But she has Alzheimer's, though. Your grandmother might have actually thought she did say it. Or she might have said it in 1968 and think that was five minutes ago. We don't know.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cleketketketketketketketketketketketket cle cle cle Athlet Athlet Athlet Athlet Athlet Athlet Athlet Athlet Athlet Athlet cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cle cleketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketketket famili cleketketketketketketketketketket familiacos住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住住osket
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Thank you. Thank you. That's it. Not even the minivan they didn't want. So acting on their information, police began searching for these people that struck without motive or anything else all over the place. And they were like, I don't understand it. There's only one escape route on the street. And it's at a time of day when there's a lot of activity. It's six o'clock at night.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's the other thing. Yeah, yeah. She's... Cut her some slack, Jimmy. Like I have said before, this experience is amazing, but it is kind of off small. I think they mean of small. It's kind of a small town. Here's four stars. Enid is very boring, but I like that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I like the boring. I've lived here for about three years, and it's fine for me. I have no problem with Enid being boring, unlike all my friends. Nothing bad here happens. A low crime rate here in Enid. We'll be the judge of that. We have stats. There only was one big issue that has happened in Enid, but again, nothing happened.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
People are coming home from work. They're going out to the grocery store. They're doing things. The men are never found in the neighborhood. Oh, no one else on the street saw anybody wearing all black in masks, carrying guns, nothing of them, even just two guys. They didn't see any of that. Nobody saw anything. No one in the neighboring areas saw them either running away.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So they didn't know, you know, there's none of that. Yeah. That Frost officer said about Brenda, she was crying like fake crying. She wasn't hysterical like most people involved in this kind of crime. So he said, you know, he had this Frost guy said he's familiar with the neighborhood because he works as an extra job as security in this neighborhood.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
For the last 13 years, and he had written a drive or a traffic ticket in front of their house less than an hour before the shootings.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I was just in front of this fucking house, he said. So he was doing these extra patrols because Brenda had asked the security company for extra patrol around her home after they separated. She was saying she was scared of Rob.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, which there doesn't seem to be much reason to be scared of Rob. He's just not like that. So the wounds here, Rob was shot twice with a 16-gauge shotgun. Okay. A spent 16-gauge shotgun shell was found in the garage on top of the family van.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
No. We'll talk about that. Now, Rob owned a 16-gauge shotgun, but had told several friends that Brenda refused to let him take it when they separated, and it's usually in a closet in the bedroom. The shotgun is missing from the home, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The issue was threats made the Enid High School, which I go to, and nothing happened. When this threat was made, the police were on it. They covered the whole school in secret, of course, but you could tell. I got to admit, nothing happens at all, not even crime, so it's a little boring. All right. Here's one star. Sure.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yes. One witness, by the way, comes forward and says they saw Brenda at an area used for target practice near her family's rural Garfield County home eight days before this murder and later found several 16 gauge shotgun shells at the site out there. Now, Brenda's wound was caused by a 22 caliber bullet. Who's got one of those?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So Rob was shot once in the side and once in the neck.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
With a shotgun? Yes. Goddamn. From pretty close range. Pellets from the first shot entered his right lung, trachea, and liver. The second shot came downward into his neck. So right over him. It's cold-blooded. Making a fist-sized tear in the skin. That is horrifying, man. And hitting his aorta. Yeah. A medical examiner said that the wounds would cause him to bleed to death in less than 10 minutes.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Whether there's no way, he was conscious and trying to talk probably with half of his neck missing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And she said if there was in the house, it would be in the hall or the bedroom closet. So there's that. Now, James Higgins, who, by the way, was helping Rob move out of the house. Jesus Christ. He said he saw the shotgun in the bedroom closet back then, which was a month ago, a month and a half ago. The murder weapon is never found. We'll talk about it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But the evidence shows that he was shot with a single-shot shotgun.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Reload, which would make sense for the one shell. If you cock it, the shell pops out. That's on top of the minivan. And then the second shell is probably still in the gun.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Because that's not one that automatically ejects, correct?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You've got to take those out.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's what I kind of thought. I'm glad I got that half correct.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You can murder a man pretty easily with it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Don't talk shit about it. It seems like it's doing its work.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
No, no, it's not. If you miss, you're in deep shit. So, yeah, they're talking about, you know, they think he was trying to shield himself with cans and all of that kind of thing. So they say she goes on to say that and all the facts say he might have been conscious for a few minutes.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
during this now in the door leading from the garage into the house they found an embedded metal projectiles they find an embedded bullet because it was mashed up they couldn't figure out the caliber at the scene but upon expert examination it was determined to be a 22 caliber so that's the one that went through brenda's arm i think it's her left her left bicep like right and on the side there i'm trying to remember the picture which side it was on
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So when she called James... to ask him about it because, or did she find it or did they find it? Yeah, I guess they found it here. Oh, the projectile was damaged, like we said. It was too damaged to conclusively determine the manufacturer.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So the state presented later on, they have experts that say the projectile was consistent with .22 caliber live rounds collected over the course of the investigation that we'll find. Now, there's a live round that she finds in the house, and when she called James to ask him about it, he told her to throw the bullet away and not tell anybody about it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. Give me some goddamn action in this joint. Like a drug gang maybe.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, that's real interesting there. And by the way, the shot to Brenda's in the back of her arm, so it looks impossible to be self-inflicted, basically. So Brenda's taken to the hospital for treatment.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Her behavior was described by several witnesses, and these are people in the hospital that deal with this all the time, as uncharacteristically calm for a woman whose husband had just been gunned down in front of her and she was shot also. It was wild.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So the Brenda says she agrees to speak with police because she wanted to help the police catch those responsible for shooting her husband, she said. So she's taken to be questioned still with the smock on and everything from the hospital. And she really has no fucking choice. I mean, she's she's they got to talk to her.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. So the detective tells her you're a witness, not a suspect. Don't worry. You know, all that. After the interview, they took her to a friend's house and everything like, you know, they tried to be whatever. She was not under arrest at any time, never handcuffed or restrained or anything like that. The police. The problem is here. They guess they she is wounded and medicated at the time.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Big like a North Hollywood bank robbery type of deal. One of those. Give me something like that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So they're still trying to talk to her. She repeatedly told the officer she needed to leave. And the officers would ask more questions rather than letting her leave. So at one point, about an hour and 20 minutes into the interview, she said, can I go see my kids? And they just didn't answer and they just kept talking.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
40 minutes later, she asked again if she could go, you know, care for her children. And the detective told her she could only leave after they finished the questioning. Now, by that time, by the time she ends up being released from the police station, it's after 1 o'clock in the morning. And they said that a lot of the questions were pointed and confrontational.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Here's five questions that are considered accusatory here. About 30 minutes into the interview, a police detective asks Brenda what had been going on with Rob, why he'd moved out, and what they fought about. which is reasonable. He's dead. You're trying to divorce him. He also then the detective left the room for about 20 minutes.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's okay. One star. The city of Enid as a whole is one of the most boring cities I've ever lived in. This person doesn't like the boring apparently. It's like the city doesn't want to build anything that will attract out-of-town tourists. Yeah, there is the Stride Center. Oh, yay. You all won't pay for good entertainment.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
When he returned, he asked Brenda if she had loved or hated her husband because he probably went and talked to someone who said, I hate him. I hate him. I hate him is what she's been saying and expressing a belief that she seemed to lack emotion. And they said, did you hate him that much that you don't show any emotion about it? And then he said, how do you feel about the fact that he's dead now?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Then the detectives pressed her on her affairs, her relationship with James, the increases in the life insurance policy. This guy's got an $800,000 life insurance policy. You're having an affair and just filed for divorce.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And you hate him, hate him, hate him. So, I mean, obviously we have to talk to you. The detective then asked her about the incident with the brake lines, asking if Rob had suspected her of the cutting of the brake lines. Near the end of the interview, the detective questioned her about her promiscuity and said, how many guys did Rob accuse you of having affairs with?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And then they asked her if she was currently having an affair. At times during the investigation, she curled up in the fetal position, knees pulled up to her chest under the hospital gown, wounded arm dressed and wrapped across her chest, back hunched over the chair of the interrogation room. So she's just shrinking. Yeah. That's not good.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Well, when you shrink, that usually means you're trying to protect yourself. Yeah. So it's Brenda was the only living eyewitness to the crime. So, I mean, it was because she was complaining that they took her in there and asked her all these questions. It's like, yeah, we're trying. We got according to you, we have two wild murderers out there who randomly shoot people. We'd like to catch them.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You know what I mean? That's very interesting here. And they said that it was very strange that she couldn't remember the words spoken by her attackers. Any of them. Not one. Even a gist. Something.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
No, and then evidence that the crime scene is starting to be a little goofy, too, here. There's no blood trail in the house, even though Brenda said that after being shot, she ran from the garage to grab the phone and check on her two children. No blood trail. Not even blood on the handle of the telephone. Also, the police find out about the affair.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They ask her about that and everything like that. Then they go, once they find out about the affair, they go search James' apartment. They search his apartment and they seize a name change document. Oh? That's got stuff on it filled out. A black book containing a list of weapons and ammunition and two .22 caliber bullets. Not the type used to shoot in the murder here, but different type.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
.22 caliber, not the shotgun shells. Okay. Then all of a sudden, Brenda and Rob's next door neighbor, Dean Gigstad, pops up here. Now, Dean says here they found some suspicious things in their home and they call the police.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
In their house. They had been on vacation the night of the shooting. And by the way, Brenda has a key to their house.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I guess they have a venue where people can come, but they don't draw there, apparently. Yeah, we don't get suggested, do you guys want to go to Enid on your next tour ever? That never comes up. City of Enid officials don't do what the residents that elect them to do. They do what they want to do and at their own pace.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Okay. The families would get together over time and eventually he said, you know, he gave them a key to their house in case I'm out of town and something's going on or, you know, it's good to have somebody extra have a key to your house just in case.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Also, if you lose your keys, you can go get a key from Brenda. He said that Brenda had that key for years. Now, they said they were on the gig stats were on a retirement trip to Colorado before leaving town. They helped the Andrews break in a new hot tub. And yeah, I was like, that's gross. That doesn't sound very churchy. You guys are talking about hoochie mama. You're all in a hot tub together.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Sounds disgusting. And listened as Rob talked about buying his wife a larger home. Oh, this is before he moved out. So these people have been gone for a couple of months now. Now, Gigstad says that he thinks the killer ran into his garage, climbed into the attic and remained inside the house all night as the investigation went on next door.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, they said that the killer left 22 caliber bullets, a spent 16 gauge shotgun shell and a broken footstool inside the house.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Not bad. So, yeah, then police go over. They find evidence that someone had entered the Gigstad's attic through an opening in a bedroom closet.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They snuck up there. A spent 16 gauge shotgun shell was found on the bedroom floor and several 22 caliber rounds were found in the attic itself. There were no signs of forced entry into the home, you know, like you needed a key. Yeah. So the, the round, um, they also had found a 22 caliber round in Jana, Jana Larson's car. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
James' daughter's car, which was one of the same brand as the three rounds found in the attic. The .22 caliber bullet fired at Brenda was retrieved from the Andrews garage, appeared consistent with the bullets in these unfired rounds as well. The rounds were capable of being fired from a firearm that he purchased two days before the murder as well.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And they couldn't test it further because they never found that handgun. That's the other thing. He buys a gun and then three days later, he's like, no idea where it is.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I just put it, you know, I threw it in the river, and, you know, that's what you do. You get a gun, you look at it, you shoot it a couple times, you throw it in the river. That's what people do. What do you want from me?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I don't know. So the 16 gauge shotgun shell found in the gig stats home was one of the same brand as the 16 gauge shotgun shells found in the garage spent shell. This is not good. Ballistics comparison showed similar markings indicated they could have been fired from the same weapon.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Whether the shells were fired from the 16 gauge shotgun that Rob had left at the home was impossible because that gun remains missing as well. Doesn't look good. Does not look good. So Gigstad's got a theory of the crime. And at this point, I'll take Gigstad's theories. He seems smarter than anybody else investigating this fucking thing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
If you want to open a business, the paperwork will be held back and you won't be able to. What? I don't even know what the hell you're talking about. That's crazy. So, yeah, you want boring like retirement style boring, come to Enid. Actually, you want to be able to enjoy your days off with the family and drive downtown plus hours, then, well, you make the decision.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He's pretty good. And he's like an old guy, too. He says the killer approached Rob Andrew and shot him twice with a single-shot 16-gauge shotgun, perhaps the same gun that Rob's father had given him when he was a boy. This is his, like, heirloom gun. Yeah. And the same one that stumped the friend told police that Brenda would not return to her husband.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Gigstad thinks after firing the first shots, the killer had to eject the shell and load another after the first shot. In the process, he lost track of the spent shell, which was resting on top of the minivan. They say from what we can gather, he made the 20 steps over here.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It's only 20 steps from the garage to his house in about 10 seconds, came through the garage and went up through a crawl space into the attic where he stayed through the night. The next morning, he came down from the attic and stepped on this footstool. It broke under his weight and he stashed it under the bed in the master bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He's not either. This must have been a weak stool.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, shit ones. Probably for a kid. One of those for a kid to brush their teeth or something. Not meant for your ass coming out of a fucking attic. Before leaving the attic, the killer abandoned the 22 bullets. When it appeared safe, the killer peeked out of the windows, staring out at the detectives and technical advisors who remained near the Andrew home until about 4 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He said, I think he was probably waiting for everyone in the neighborhood to go to work the next morning. And then he walked out. But Gigstad's son arrived at the house at about 8 a.m., unaware that anyone was in the house. The killer must have heard the key turning in the lock and slipped into a bedroom closet to hide. While inside the closet, he realized he hadn't reloaded the shotgun.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
and fumbled to slide a shell into the chamber, and the spent shell dropped to the floor where it was found later. This guy's a fucking homicide detective. This is the neighbor. This isn't the homicide detective's theory. He's got it nailed because it's here. He must have done that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Dip shit. Probably not good at this and not doing a lot of murders. Maybe the first time. So the Gigstad said, when I heard they found such a critical piece of evidence in the bedroom, I couldn't figure out why he'd leave it there, but this makes sense to me. Gigstad's 26-year-old son walked into the bedroom and stood with his back to the closet.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He found the piece of nursery equipment he was looking for on the bed. They said if it hadn't been there, this guy would have looked in the closet and he would have probably been shot, would have probably been killed. Because Gigstad said when he reloaded that shotgun, I think he made up his mind that if anyone saw him, he wouldn't be allowed to escape.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Also, police never found the house key that he gave to Brenda either. She doesn't know where it is. No idea where it is.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Nope. It gets weirder. November 26, 2001 is the funeral for Rob. So Brenda's got to show up with the kids and, you know, put her least tight dress on and go there and look sad.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So Wade Burleson is the pastor who presided over the funeral. He said he met with Brenda a few days before the funeral to plan the service, and he found her demeanor to be cold, flat and unemotional. Uh, Burleson said, I want to help the people who grieve at the funeral service to understand the person who has died. I have a standard question that I always ask.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Would you tell me what it is that you will miss about your loved one? So he can use that as a theme. And they said, well, did she respond? And Burleson said, she did not say anything to me. She just stared at me. I thought she didn't understand the question. So I asked it again. Again, she said nothing. So I prompted her. I said, is there a character quality?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Is there a story to help me relate to others your love for Rob? And then she said one word. Nothing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Nope. Don't give a fuck. So he said he officiated this here and he said that they're waiting to start the funeral. And at the time of that, it's supposed to be is here. But there's no Brenda, no kids, nothing. We can't start it without the spouse. So he said in 40 years, this is the first time that the spouse who planned the funeral didn't show up for it. I've done a lot of funerals, man.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And then finally, one star, maybe the greatest review of anything I've ever heard. This is for a whole town, mind you. There is one taxi that is very sleazy looking. One star, whole town. One shitty taxi, the whole town's ruined. People of this town, 52,129. It's a decent-sized place. It's a small town, but it's a big, small city. A few more males than females, which is odd.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
This has never happened before.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Fuck, wait till you hear where she's going. So the funeral director whispered in this guy's ear, what do we do? What the fuck do we do? It's packed in here. This is a famous thing, and now a lot of people are here. This is at the Crossroads Community Church in Oklahoma City. They said, Brendan, the two children aren't here, and we're already 15 minutes past the start time.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So Burleson said, start the service anyway. Brenda's not coming.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's all there is to it. So the funeral director said, I spoke with her on the phone 30 minutes ago. She said she and the kids were on their way. Burleson said, quote, no, she's not coming. Brenda murdered her husband. She's on the run. That's what he said. And the funeral director was like, holy shit, and went up and started the service. That was that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I think I got this. Now, on November 26th, this same day, someone attempted to use James's ATM card or credit card at a cash machine in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
A border town here. So neither James's car nor Brenda's minivan have been spotted despite a global manhunt by law enforcement and international media exposure on America's Most Wanted and Inside Edition. They did two America's Most Wanted on this shit. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, James, on Thanksgiving, he's last seen on Thanksgiving by anybody where he met with his attorney and ate turkey sandwiches in the guy's office.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. He went to meet with his attorney on Thanksgiving and ate turkey sandwiches and denied any connection to the crime whatsoever. Now, Brenda's family, because they go, the press go to her family and they're like, she didn't show for the husband's funeral. This isn't good. Her family says, no, no, no. She's super innocent.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And that's she's a Girl Scout leader and a homeroom mom and a Sunday school teacher. She's incapable of violent crime. She's been abducted. Oh, okay. Yeah. They said that, quote, this is from the family's attorney, quote, she may have, God forbid, met the same fate Rob did. These people are back for her, man. They didn't finish her off the first time.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yep. So it's at this point where James's daughter, Jana, steps forward and tells the cops everything. Because they had searched her car, found the bullet, and they're like, well, you have a bullet that's making you look bad, so you better start fucking talking.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, there's that. Now, she said that both James and Brenda told her they were leaving because they were anticipating being arrested for murder after the funeral.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yes, they were going to wait till they lowered him in the ground and then they were going to slap the cups of the cups on her in front of her kids. She thought James called his daughter several times from Mexico and asked her to send them money. Now, she cooperated with the FBI, the daughter, and local authorities to try to track them down instead.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So this daughter here testifies later on that in late October, a month before the murder, James told her that Brenda had asked him to murder Rob. Hmm. Yeah. She said that, quote, he said, quote, you're never going to believe what that nuttier than a fruitcake woman asked me to do. He's heard how forgettable he is. I'm going to put a baby in it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Sure. And then he told me that she asked him if he would kill her husband or if he knew someone that could do it. You don't have to do it personally. I mean, just, you know. Push me in the right direction. Is there a store at the mall I can go to? What are we talking about here?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So the conversation occurred around the end of October about the same time that James had asked his daughter to call Rob and tell him to drive to Norman, Oklahoma to pick up Brenda after the brake lines had been cut. She was the female caller. She called. Yep. That's absolutely right. I guess the breaks were cut on the night of the 25th going into the 26th.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Maybe that has to do with farming and oil stuff, possibly.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The next morning, James persuaded his daughter to call Rob from an untraceable phone. It was a pay phone and claimed that Brenda was at a hospital in Norman, Oklahoma, and needed him immediately. An unknown male also called Rob that morning to plea for this.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Rob's cell phone records showed that one call came from a payphone in Norman near the daughter's workplace, by the way, like right by her job. And the other came from a payphone in South Oklahoma City. So, yeah. And we're talking about we told you about the gun, the bullets that matched from her car to the attic.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And she says the daughter, Janice, says that James had her car on the day Rob was killed. and that the next time she drove the car, she saw the bullet on the floorboard. Yeah, so he borrowed his daughter's car to commit a murder apparently.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I know I've heard of it for 20 years. Oh, it is, yeah. Every time I've driven through Oklahoma, I've been in some sort of tornado warning every single time I've done it. It's crazy. We had to stay there one time, and the lady at the hotel was like, oh, yeah, there's a tornado warning, so keep an eye on that. Go in the bathtub. And we're like, what? And she's just like, in case it comes through.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She obtained, I guess James in the days following the murder, James obtained information over the internet, they find through his searches, about Argentina because he told people that he heard that Argentina had no extradition agreement with the United States. Idiot. Yeah, he just like saw Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and were like, we can do that. It's fine.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So then after that, after the murder, Brenda and James asked the daughter here to help them create a document with a with the forged signature of Rob granting permission for his children to travel with Brenda out of the country.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
We'll figure it out later, but we'll get the other stuff. We've got to get the insurance in place first. That's the most important thing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I hear. It's lovely. So Brenda also asked Jana to transfer funds from her bank account to Jana's own bank account so that Jana could wire them money after they left. So she said, my bank account is going to be a no-go, so you need to – we'll do it from yours. Now, inconsistencies in Brenda's story besides all of this, which is kind of – it's over.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But they need evidence besides one person. So her superficial wound was caused by the 22 fired at close range, which was inconsistent with her claim that she had been shot at a good distance. She was supposed to be across the garage from these people. Expert testimony opines that the wound to her arm was not self-inflicted, but looked like part of a scheme to stage a scene.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
to make it look like she's a victim. So, you know, it's less suspicious. James obviously purchased a .22 caliber handgun from a local gun shop two days before the murder. Yeah, he borrowed his daughter's car, claiming he was going to have it serviced for her. He's going to be a good dad.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You come back, oil's still gunky, but there's a bullet on the floor now. Perfect. When it came back, the car had not been serviced, but a .22 caliber bullet was in her car. In a conversation later that day, James told Jana never to repeat that Brenda had asked him to kill Rob, and he threatened to kill his own daughter if she did. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Okay, don't tell your daughter about your sexual activities or your murders, and never threaten to kill your daughter, ever. Yeah. What kind of an outlook mentally can she have at this point? My father threatened to kill me and used me in a murder.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He also told her to throw away the 22 rounds she found in her car, which she didn't. She turned it over to the cops.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
A handwriting expert determined that Rob's signature on insurance papers that renamed Brenda as beneficiary after he had taken her off with the boss were doctored, and they were forged signature. Apparently, in the last year, Rob had began signing his name with a Jesus fish. He put a Jesus fish on it at the end. Everybody know what that is? The little Jesus fish?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
We're like, is it going to come through? She's like, you never know. Okay, great. Sounds good.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Absolutely. But it was not on the papers that he claimed were genuine, that James claimed were genuine documents. But it was on other ones. So they forgot to do it. That's wild. That's a big mess. Yeah. On the actual valid documents, Rob did change the beneficiary, but to Tricity and Parker as children. With a fish. Pow. Now, Brenda is in Mexico. They're all in Mexico. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Remember Nunley there, the guy she had an affair?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He gets a call from her. Oh, boy. While she's in Mexico. And he's like, whoa, this is fucking crazy. Brenda was wanting his help in getting in touch with an attorney and her sister.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now it's time to pay up. Ten years worth. Fucking loser. So she said she had told him, this is his quote, she said she had an important or had important attorney papers in the children's luggage, a written confession. This, there is a written confession. It is a written confession written by James R.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's it. Just hang out in the bathtub. Median age, 34.9. 48% married here. 18% are single with children, so less married than average. A few more single with children than average. Race here, 72.8% white, 3.5% black, 0.8% Asian, 13.5% Hispanic.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It's in letter form to Tricity, the daughter, and it is basically explaining that he killed the father and that he's sorry.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Expert in handwriting verifies that James wrote this letter, by the way. November 29th, 2001, Oklahoma County prosecutors file first-degree murder charges against Brenda and James. I mean, you have to here, obviously here. And Rob's parents file for guardianship of the children at that point, too, which is smart.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
An attorney for Brenda suggested she would return to surrender, but prosecutors and the FBI said bullshit. She's not coming back to surrender. One of the agents said, we felt like they would be running out of money. So they're either going to give up, get a job, which would be very difficult because they're south of the border, or seek help.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
We felt like at this point, since there had been no spottings and no sightings, that they were probably seeking some help. And they were. They were getting Janet to send them money. Now, November 30th, 2001, federal authorities now charge them with illegal flight to avoid prosecution as well. They're still gone, though.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
February 7th, 2002, Brenda's attorney tries to trade a confession letter, because he found the confession letter, James's, for a dismissal of the charges against Brenda.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I'll give you this if you dismiss against my client, because in the letter it says Brenda had nothing to do with it. That's part of it. Your mom had nothing to do with it, I should say. The district attorney said, fuck out of here with that shit. One person was getting the money and it wasn't him. So she's more than involved. February 28th, 2002. The authorities here, it's about 1140 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And it's a Thursday. And there's a guard here, last name of Huerta, who's working at the border. Okay. He spots in a minivan. Oh, they took two men down, two men and two children in a minivan. He finds two men and he finds a very sad little girl with who's crying, eyes red, crying, crying, crying.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And she he said he didn't know what the fuck this was. He just was a crying little girl. So he was like, oh, shit, I want to, you know, want to help this crying little girl. So two other people were in the van. It is Tricity there. She's accompanied by a crying boy as well, as we know, and an older man. The older man, I'm sorry, so it's a boy, a girl, and an older man. The older man is Jim Bolin.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That is Kim, Brenda's sister's husband. Brenda's brother-in-law. He's there. So the huerta searches the bags, and the contents of the girl's suitcase included a diary and an assortment of hand-drawn pictures of dogs. So this guy, the border guy, said, I could tell she liked dogs. You know, he said she had pictures and drawings everywhere. And, you know, so there was that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So that'll come in handy for him in a minute. So the FBI and customs officials said the two children were in a 2000 white van driven by James Bolin, who's Brenda's brother in law. So they said that his story didn't seem to add up. They felt like his story was somewhat suspicious. Why an uncle was coming up from Mexico with two young children makes no sense.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He's not even the blood relative, you know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Hers is Maroon, yeah. Whatever he was telling the customs officers sounded suspicious to them, and they opted to detain him for further investigation, which they said happens quite often. So in an attempt to calm the little girl down, this border guard guy popped up with some trading cards that customs officials have for children. They're cards that feature photographs of the sniffer dogs.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
3.3 percent Hawaiian Pacific Islander which is that right as high as I've seen in any place other than Hawaii and California or Alaska really so yeah it's that's a lot I don't know if there's a community here that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, they're like trading cards of the dogs, basically.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It has details of what kind of dog they are and their histories and careers and all that kind of shit. So this guy said, I went up to her and asked her if she liked dogs, and she nodded yes. So I opened up a couple of packs of cards and started showing them to her. She just started crying again.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So eventually this guy, because there's a million, if you've ever been to the border, there's all sorts of guys. You don't just get stuck with one guy. They're moving all around. So he said he lost track of the girl after that because he moved on to help with other inspections. Then about 20 minutes later, something else happens.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
About 20 minutes after this happens, an automatic tag reader on the Hidalgo side of the bridge registers a hit on an Oklahoma license plate. They had tag readers in 2001, which is shocking, honestly.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Probably, yeah. Customs inspectors soon confirmed the car's occupants were wanted by the FBI. Who's in the car? It is Brenda and James.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She left her fucking kids with her brother-in-law to try to get into the country.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They called her a raven-haired woman in her 30s and a slim man in a blue shirt and sunglasses. They offered no resistance. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I know in Utah there's a big Samoan population there, so I don't know if half of Fiji has come to Enid. I'm not sure. Who the hell knows? Religious here, they're pretty religious. 58.7% of the people here are religious, and the biggest one is 17.6% Baptist. As we know, the Baptists are the Catholics of the wheat fields, obviously, now we found out here.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Both parties rejected the letter as an accurate version of what happened, although for different reasons.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
since the Northeast is all Catholic and otherwise there. The unemployment rate here is 3.7, which is below the national average. It's very low. Really low, 3.7. The median household income here is $57,772 a year, which is less than the national average. It's about $69,000. But everything's so fucking cheap. And that's the thing. The cost of living here is low.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
100 is regular average in the United States. Here, it's 72. Oh, my God. So, way low. Housing is the cheapest of everything.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Median home cost here, $126,400. What? That's extremely inexpensive. That's unbelievable. If you want to be bored, we have for you the Enid, Oklahoma Real Estate Report. OK, average two bedroom rental goes for about nine hundred forty bucks, which is about three hundred dollars less than the national average and three fifty.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
While the letter may have borne some relevance to show his complicity, it was perhaps more relevant to show how jealousy and greed can fuck everything up here is what they say in there. Also, the numerous other witnesses who spoke with and observed Rob and Brenda and James as their relationship with one another evolves.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The evidence against James is largely circumstantial, but I mean, that's not that unusual, obviously. But there's a... shitload of circumstantial. I mean, it's a mountain.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I mean, it's not guaranteed bullets.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He just heard about it. The letters were handwritten, but practically identical. The one he wrote, he wrote two different ones. It appeared that one had been copied verbatim from the other or that they had both been copied from another source. While the letters were detailed, they were perhaps too detailed and appearing to parrot certain key features of the state's case.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So, yeah, there's all of this shit, and they had publicly done everything, so that's all public. September 15, 2003 is the verdict for James. Jury deliberates for two and a half hours and they find him guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
OK. Sentencing comes around here. October of 2003. Here it comes. You, sir, may fuck off death penalty.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. He got death penalty on that one.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, that's that. So anyway, his lawyer said Mr. Pavitt has great Christian faith. He believes that everything happens for a reason and that God is directing his life. This isn't the first time an innocent man's been convicted and sentenced to death in Oklahoma County. We'll work on that. Now, June, July 2004, another Tupac song, Brenda Had a Trial. That's on another album.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Brenda killed her baby, and now she's on trial for it. It's a real tragic thing here. We'll call you bitch. That's a Tupac lyric, by the way. It's a song. Not everyone's going to know that. That's what I'm saying. People are going to be like, that's Jimmy saying that. No, that's Tupac saying that in 1992. Don't worry about it. So Brenda's trial here. Oh, man.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They talk about her lawyer says it's really going to be hard to get a jury. That is the kind of thing that has caused people to do change of venue motions. It's amazing how often something can happen in a town and no one knows about it. This case was a big deal in town and may have polluted the potential jury pool to the sense that everyone knows about it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you so much for joining us today on another wild, crazy, incredible episode of Small Town Murder. It's...
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They tell her to fucking pound sand, but pound sand here, not away from us because we're doing it here. The openings here, the prosecution in his opening statement told the jury Brenda had extracurricular activities. She liked to cheat on Rob. This is a quote, by the way. Throughout the marriage, Brenda had a boyfriend on the side.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They go on to talk about how she's accused of making passes at teenagers who are working on her deck and all of that shit. Another thing they really tout here, oh my goodness, this really means she's guilty, is the book the cops found in the second drawer of the nightstand next to her bed. Think about it. It's dark, man. Dirty, dark. 203 Ways to Drive a Man Wild in Bed by Olivia St. Clair.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So she's dirty. It's a long Cosmo article, basically. You know what I mean? You can sell that at a checkout line at the grocery store.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Here's house number one, three bedroom, one bath, fifteen hundred seventy eight square feet. And the listing is as such. This is the entire real estate listing. OK, quote, this home had a fire. H.A.D.E. sells as is.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah, there's an old joke about, it's like a hacky stand-up joke from like the 80s. Yeah, Cosmo, 100 ways to satisfy your man. I can think of one. That's all you need, lady. Can't remember whose it is, but it's some bullshit from the early 90s.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
What is it? That's what I mean. There's going to be ones that are probably not like that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. Yeah. Now, the prosecutors put a lot of emphasis on this book and her affairs and all this type of shit. Meanwhile, all they need to concentrate is altered insurance policy. Bingo. Period. Yeah. Period to me. That's it. Altered insurance policy. No fish. You ran away to Mexico. Fucking case closed. Fuck off.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. Give me a goddamn break. Also, they talk about the Sullivan, the mouth of the south snitch there. Right, right.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She was not facing state charges. She testified that she did not expect any benefit from testifying because she's testifying in a state trial while being held by federal authorities. She just happened to be held at the county jail. She said she did not seek out authorities with which to share her story.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She, as well as other incarcerated inmates in the county jail with Brenda, were contacted to determine whether they had information. The cops went there and talked to everybody around her and said, is she talking? So there's that. Anyway, they do give the instruction that she's a jailhouse informant and take that to the jury. Take that as what you will here.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She's fighting the shotgun evidence here. Brenda's claim is basically she's got different things here. They start with testimony concerning Rob's 16-gauge shotgun. The fact that Rob owned a 16-gauge shotgun was not in dispute. The fact that he was killed by a 16-gauge shotgun, also undisputed.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The fact that that's significant considering the fact that a 16-gauge shotgun is less common than a 12 or a 20.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So he said the fact that his shotgun was in the house and now it's not. And the murder weapon was that and it's never been recovered. Pretty big coincidence.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Pretty big deal. The statements here, they talk about a revolve around Rob's desires and expressed to witness Ron Stump to get his shotgun out of the marital home after Brenda had changed the locks and security codes on him. Rob told Ron that Brenda would not let him have the shotgun. The statement was made a week prior to the murder.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
However the statement was introduced to show that Rob did not have the shotgun inferring that it was still in Brenda's control. She also, they're trying to get hearsay. They're saying something's hearsay and they don't want it in. Rob's statement to Ron that Brenda finally found someone to kill him after the break line thing. And it was James, he said, too. It was James Pavick guy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The statement was made just shortly after Rob had moved out of the house. Okay, it's before the break lines. The statement's clearly a statement showing Rob's state of mind at the time, and the court has ruled such antecedent declarations by a decedent are admissible in a homicide case to show the decedent's state of mind toward the defendant or to supply motive for the killing.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Those reasons only, and it falls into that exception range. Testimony showing ill-feeling threats or similar conduct by one spouse toward another in a marital homicide case is relevant and statements by the deceased expressing fear of a spouse are admissible under the state of mind exception to the hearsay rule. Right. That's some legal shit for you people out there.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It's all burnt and like charred. Like on the outside, you see where fire came and like lick the fucking walls from the inside. It's crazy. There's no interior pictures. Looks like it's going to fall down any minute now. Three bedroom, one bath, fifteen hundred seventy eight square feet of fire damage. Twenty nine thousand nine hundred dollars for that.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
We give you all sorts of shit here. We give you crazy stories. We give you groundhog for breakfast. We give you dick jokes. But we also give you insanely detailed legal fucking nuances, which is crazy. Our show is fucking weird, Jimmy. It's a weird show.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
We've had a lot of lawyers tell us nobody gets into the legal shit like we do and they love it and all that stuff. And then people are like, nobody gets into the crazy fucking trash shit like you guys. What weird things there. So also the statements to insurance people, Rob's belief that Brenda and James tried to kill him by cutting the brake lines to his car.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Those are those that would be inadmissible. But the tape statements were introduced through prudential employees about that. After the evidence was introduced to show Rob's state of mind, his fear of Brenda and the motive for the killing, the insurance money. That's what they do there. The conversations Rob had with the insurance company were introduced to show why Brenda had motive to kill Rob.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He was trying to keep Brenda from bringing the primary beneficiary to his life insurance. The conversation shows why he would change the beneficiary to his brother. The phone calls were also introduced to show why the insurance company would not change the beneficiary over the phone at Brenda's request, increasing her anger and resentment of Rob. She tried to change it back on her own.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You can't change the fucking thing on somebody else's after they took you off of it. That's crazy. Wow. One of Brenda's main complaints, there's a testimony of attorney Craig Box. Rob Andrew hired Box to represent him in the divorce proceedings.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Box testified that Andrew told him about a series of calls from Brenda and James, which led him to believe that they were responsible for the brake line incident attempts on his life. meaning the, I read it in the newspaper and all that kind of shit here. Um, so the statement supported the conspiracy charge by showing when an agreement may have been consummated.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They also support the theory that the motive for murder was for insurance money. Okay. So, um, They also talk about the tape recordings of James trying to change the ownership of the insurance policy with Prudential. His threats toward Rob and statements he made concerning Brenda's request that he kill Rob were all properly admitted.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The same can be said of other statements Rob made to others about the trouble he was having changing the beneficiary of the policy. Which he was telling everybody. They had people testified. Yeah, he told me he was trying.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They said the remainder of the statements Rob made to others about being kicked out of the house, Brenda hiding money, Rob's statement regarding Brenda's belief that he was having a homosexual affair. Oh, come on. You must be gay because I fuck all your friends. That makes sense.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
His statements about Brenda's affair with Nunley and Rob statements regarding the changing of the locks and Brenda's refusal to let him see the children. All of that there was also let in. Now, Rick Nunley, he testifies saying Brenda called me from jail when she was arrested, not only from Mexico, but from fucking jail.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, evidence of their sexual affair was limited to one question. Did you have a sexual affair? Yes. That was it. The evidence of the sexual affair between them was remote. Its significance was a minimal part of the relationship for this purpose. James Higgins here testifies also because she's told Nunley and James Higgins that she hates Rob.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And she wishes he was dead. So that's interesting. So they're basically trying to show that James was just the latest guy that she got in here and told that she hated her husband. She was basically just looking for a guy who would eventually kill her husband, basically. So the evidence of her affairs proved motive and intent, and that's how that went.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
You have to knock the house down. There's no way to fix this. Here's a four bedroom, three bath, twenty three hundred thirty nine square feet. It looks like it's like that weird, you know, that Arizona like Santa Fe style with like the the archway. Yeah, that's what it is. It's weird. It's way too southwesty for I know Oklahoma is sometimes considered the southwest, but yeah.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, Brenda argues that her statements to police were the result of custodial interrogation. Thus, their introduction was unconstitutional because she had not been advised of her Miranda rights.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Because they say she wasn't a suspect. They make a point to tell her she's not a suspect, but then they start asking suspect questions and they still didn't Mirandize her. Luckily for her, luckily for the prosecution, she didn't say shit to have it be. That's not the crux of their case. She didn't really say much anyway. She said stuff she had already told them 10 times.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So here's more stuff that doesn't look great. Um, other evidence, uh, included testimony that Brenda had, uh, come on to his, a neighbor said that Brenda had come on to his two, uh, their two sons, adult sons when they were building a deck, not the kids. This is the adults. Now, uh, somebody's testimony that she was dressed provocatively. Well, this is David Ostro. This is the hoochie quote guy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. When they went out to dinner together, this was only six to eight weeks before the murder, the hoochie comment there. So an inappropriate talk about a trip to Mexico as well. She was talking about Mexico. Ron Stump's testimony that Brenda changed her hair color after learning what color Ron liked and what color he himself liked, like her husband's best friend.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And David Head's testimony about Brenda threatening to kill him. That's the plumber. Additional evidence included the guy, the funeral guy, the pastor, the testimony about Brenda's demeanor while making the funeral arrangements and then not showing up for the funeral. Also, one of her friends talking about Brenda bragging about hiding money.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Testimony regarding Brenda's attempt to influence the children with a puppy. She got it today. She's like, your dad's going to be dead. You're going to need something. You need a puppy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Hang on to that for later. You're going to need that in about two days. Trust me. Jana Larson's testimony that she told her father, James, that she thought Brenda lied when she told him she had not slept with any other men other than her husband and James.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Like recently, obviously in the past testimony that James told her his daughter that the Andrew children were all trained and would not tell of the affair between he and Brenda. She made her kids fucking keep the secret. That's gross, man. Evidence consisting of a tape recording of conversations between Brenda and Rob recorded the days before the murder.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
These recordings included conversations between Tricity and Rob. Brenda next. Also, they talk about evidence that the prosecution introduces two Agatha Christie mystery books that Brenda had.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
In Mexico with her, like, entitled Murder is Easy and Sparkling Cyanide.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. You lying bitch, Agatha Christie. You lied to me.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Also, there's a birthday card from James to Brenda, photographs of Brenda, James and the children taken on a trip while on a trip to Six Flags over Texas. They're supposed to stop there. Evidence of James's infatuation with Brenda. And finally, the contents of Brenda's luggage, including her thong underwear. They're going to make a big deal out of that shit because this is 2001.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
This is like straight New Mexico, Arizona type shit here. It's really weird. Four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,339 square feet. It's $299,900. That's almost 3,000 square feet.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So Cisco is singing that shit right now. Yeah. That shit is out there. The ladies are putting thongs on fucking UTIs be damned. Let's do it.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
All of this evidence or yeast infections, actually, all this evidence was introduced to show that the extent and the nature of the relationship between James and Brenda and their intentions of fleeing to Mexico, you know, not as a grieving widow, but as a free fugitive living large on a Mexico beach with 800 grand. Plenty of money there.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Oh, yeah, you can make that work for a long time there. Now, the prosecutor, Galen Geiger, yes, Galen Geiger, like a Geiger counter, hauling a suitcase toward the jury box from which he took out a pair of the thong underwear, waved them in front of the jury. I was just going to say, he spun them around like her coming home from the grocery store.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
quite the adventure today man it is stuff going everywhere a wild time can't wait to get into this before we do very very quickly definitely make sure to show head over to shut up and give me murder.com get your tickets first of all tickets for live shows virtual live show is the next one up that is april the 19th it's our 420 virtual live show which means costumes which means i have crazy bongs to force jimmy to smoke out of at different intervals in the show
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
And then said, this thong is what we found in the suitcase. It's been introduced into evidence. The grieving widow packs this to run off with her boyfriend. The grieving widow packs this and pulls out a black thong and a red thong to go sleep in a hotel room with her children and her boyfriend. The grieving widow packs this and pulls out a lacy bra. In her appropriate act of grief.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Now, you still need bras and underwear, no matter how sad you are.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Sorry she's not wearing fucking bloomers, but, you know, what do you want here? Sorry she's a fucking party. Not only did the prosecution suggest that Brenda was a sex-crazed adulteress, they also argued that Brenda was a bad mother who, you know, if you convicted her and executed her, would benefit her children. If you got rid of her.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Not bad. Not a lot of land, though. It's a small lot. Then here's a three-bedroom, four-bath, T-bowl for each and every b-hole and one leftover, 3,995 square feet. This is on 21.7 acres.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
They said, would a good mother allow her children to read murder mysteries with their father laying in his grave? Would a good mother take them out of school and have them eat tuna fish and wash dishes in a pot and live on the beach? Live like a beach hobo? I mean, I guess. So at this point, he then says two words here that are going to come back to haunt the prosecution later. Uh-oh.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
He calls her a, quote, slut puppy. Oh. I don't know what that even is. A slut puppy.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That is wild. Skank duckling.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Is that puppy a slut puppy? That's what you buy someone? I don't know what that is. I don't think the word slut should probably come up in the trial of... I don't think that should come up at all here. That's probably beside the fact, I would say.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Yeah. How about a friendly gal? Now, during deliberations here, there's a problem, a problem that causes the defense attorney to ask for a mistrial because the jury had to leave and go sit outside on the sidewalk for a little while because there's a gas leak and an evacuation of the courtroom during deliberations. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The jury had been deliberating more than an hour when the work crew outside hit a three-inch natural gas line near the northwest part of the courthouse.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
That's a biggie there. That's a big fucking line. The jury was taken across the street on the southeast side of the building under guard by Oklahoma County Sheriff's deputies. They didn't say go to Subway and mingle. They just, you know. The leak was stopped, and the jury resumed its work after about 15 minutes. And they said, we should have a mistrial for that. They had to go outside.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
It's a seven-man, five-woman jury, and they deliberate for about seven hours over two days. Before they come to a verdict here, they find her guilty of murder and conspiracy. Right. Now, in sentencing, they're asking for the death penalty. Really? And they say she deserves the death penalty for things that are.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
big lot yeah the zillow listing says living space as a highlight which yes it is they say it's a thoughtfully designed living space upon entry you'll be greeted by a stunning wood cathedral ceiling that leads into a large living room with captivating views of the gas fireplace and outdoor area it's nice but it's not 1.5 million dollars which is what it costs it's not that nice 21.7 acres
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The problem is some of the arguments are for things that aren't counted as aggravating circumstances. The only things you can present are things that are aggravators. You can't just say they're kind of a dick, so you should kill them. That's clouding the issue at that point. So they argued that, quote, she killed Rob because she wanted the money. She wanted the custody of the children.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The prosecutor also said that she deserved the death penalty for the way she treated Rob after he had forgiven her time and time again. Now, there's no objection from the defense for any of this shit. So that makes sense. The prosecution, they're going to claim that the prosecution was intentionally misleading the jury by pointing out to them that Tricity Andrew did not beg for her mother's life.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She would understand. Did she say, please don't kill my mother during sentencing? No. So, yeah, the defense counsel had planned and had informed the court that he intended to ask Tricity if she wanted her mother to get the death penalty.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
But then the defense attorney never asked that question, possibly due to the fact that Tricity was having an emotional time on the stand and it was really kind of beaten on her too much here. So then they also attacked the fact that the defense used Brenda's 15 year old niece to ask to spare Brenda's life by and then told the jury, would you put your 15 year old niece on the stand to do that?
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
I wouldn't. So, yeah, the defense calls these low blows. Right. here um now um brenda here in her defense here she um the prosecutor i'm sorry the prosecutor says rob andrews parents would like to visit him in prison the only place they can visit him is in a grave brenda has many relatives who would visit her in prison if given the opportunity so you should kill her basically
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
The defense attorney said, quote, you have got children who have already lost their father and now the only parent they have left is mommy. Now, I am assuming them or some family member would make the argument to the jury. Why deprive the children with the right to have at least one parent, even though she's in prison? Why leave them parentless? It's just pointless.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
Also mitigating evidence as follows. She had no history of prior criminal activity, has never committed acts of violence in the past, was considered a good mother who loves her children very much. The death penalty would deprive Tricity and Parker of their only living parent. She has a family who loves and values her life.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
She has many relatives who would visit her in prison if given the opportunity, was a kind, giving neighbor and friend, has an education and might be able to help other inmates, was a dedicated employee who worked hard, had been a model inmate since being incarcerated in county jail, and has always been active in school and church activities. She didn't help. So help. She said, show me any arm.
Small Town Murder
#581 - Sexy Sunday School Teacher Slaughter - Enid, Oklahoma
So she says, quote, I plan to fight for my freedom to the end. And the end is neither execution nor imprisonment. It is the complete vindication of my name. God knows my heart and he will deliver me out of this situation. Yeah. And the judge says, you, ma'am, may fuck off death penalty.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He also drew a map of some woods in Silver Spring where he said he had buried Michelle Dorr, which is where they found it. Jesus told his wife what Clark has said, and she called a state trooper she knew, and that's how this whole thing fucking happened. They end up digging up. They go to the gravesite there. They dig up a bucket that he described to Jesus. It was two feet below ground.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Attached to it was a shred of plastic, which had been torn loose from a plastic bag. The bucket contained 230 pieces of jewelry, valuable bracelets, earrings, little bead chokers strung on rubber bands like kids wear. One of the items was a brooch with a winged female figure reclining against a blanket. Television reporters called it the Angel of Death. He said he wore that when he killed someone.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That was his killing brooch. He said someone else must have given it that name because he sure didn't. But he said the brooch belonged to a girl named Debbie whose car broke down in Pennsylvania during the 70s. He gave her a ride and she kept asking to drive his car and he got annoyed so he killed her and buried her.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They just look at you and go, ugh. So that's one end of it. Yeah. Affluent. They love the word affluent in there. Yeah. Then the other end of it is Porky the Little Eater.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Also in a bucket were a ring and a watch that Penny later recognized as having belonged to her daughter. 200 pieces of women's jewelry, dude. He stole this.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
These are his trophies. Wow. He claimed they all came from victims. That's crazy. So 2000s, they find the bathing suit that Michelle Dorr was wearing in a wooded area near a playground with the help of Haddon and Jesus. He's currently serving two consecutive prison terms at the Eastern State Correctional Facility in Maryland.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
However, Luciano says, if you're comfortable with this guy living in your basement or renting a room from you, then you put him on parole because I don't know if he's getting parole. No. In prison, he occupies himself by reading the Bible. He's often given to attributing quotations to it that aren't there. This is great.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He will say, like it says in the Bible, ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. That part's not in the Bible.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
As it says in the Bible, a penny saves a penny earned. I mean, that's just how it is.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said at one point, like father, like son. You ever read the Bible? No.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's just insane. He's fucking insane. He plays chess by correspondence with people whose names he gets from chess magazines. What? Plays with other prisoners, too. And he says if he feels they're cheating, he cheats, too. Michael Bay made a documentary about him, that Michael Bay, which is incredible because there's that whole story, almost three hours. Did you hear one explosion? No.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No explosions at all. Called Born Evil. It's on Max. Oh, man. There's also a guy named John F. George wrote a book called Knowing Haddon, My Correspondence with the Cross-Dressing Cannibal. Yeah. That is available in paperback only on Amazon. There is also Born Evil, The True Story of Cannibalism and Serial Murder. That is available. That's by Adrian Havel.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Okay, that is, I'll show you a picture. That is this. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Some good information from this story came from that. Got to give that credit. There's that. I guess Havel interviewed and corresponded with Haddon Clark more than a dozen times for the account. The only names they change out of anything are Jeffrey Clark's kids because who cares. And then there's his art. Okay, Jimmy, let's look at some of his art.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
First of all, you can buy one of his letters at SerialKillersInc.net for $30.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, yeah. Look, here's the one you saw that's creepy. Here's another creepy one.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's so fucked. Look at the nose.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, it's like Peter Griffin's chin. And he writes things on them. He writes coffee. It's almost like an ad for coffee. And it says, circle the S hands over and under each other several times. And he has people doing sign language in all of these. Wow. Here is Dog. It's a little girl. It's always little girls.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Six foot high brick house with a pig with its mouth open. Looks like a glory hole. That looks like a pig glory hole is what that does.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And it says, pat the side of the leg, then snap the fingers. I guess that's how you make a dog do stuff. And it's very nice. It looks like a Disney dog.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Very Disney-ish. Here, this one, it's a picture of actual someone with a cat, a woman with a cat. And it says, love cat. And it has another drawing here, and it says, Reagan Revord love cats.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Reagan loves cats. Marijuana. There's a weed leaf and making a smoking gesture with this little girl that says, using the F hand, make the motion as if you are smoking a marijuana joint. That's the sign language for that in his mind. Library. The right L hand is a circle. That's library. Look at how creepy they are. That looks a lot like Laura, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Look at the same girl he draws.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's Michelle.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You fuck its face and you're like, okay. It says Cabin John Regional Park is a peaceful picnic spot in Montgomery County that features one very unusual resident, an environmentally conscious talking pig.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's Michelle that he's drawing. And that is Laura, because if you see a picture of Laura, it just looks like her. Here's another one. Circle the A hand toward the body alternately several times. TV and acting. My favorite actor is Clint Eastwood, but I have plenty of actresses I really like. Demi Moore, Michael Learned, Mary Beth McDonough, and quite a few others. That's what he writes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Quite a few. Home. And it says Los Angeles up there. That's for Reagan Reverd. Home is in Los Angeles.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Must have been the chick with the cat. Onion. Onions make some people cry. And it's that same little girl with tears coming down her face there. Then there's a picture of Garfield that just looks traced.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That looks like a coloring book picture. It's Garfield on a skateboard with a backwards hat. I don't get that. Then there's a frog here. Again, that looks like a colored frog, but it sits on top of her head. Of a girl that he drew. For some reason. Candy. Okay. He's got M&Ms, like a Photoshopped M&Ms on there. Lightning. He's got that. Money.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yep, the girl's exactly the same.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Those are new bills. There you go, everybody. That is Haddon Clark. And like I said, top ten crazy in the history of this show, obviously. This guy is fucking nuts.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And the world. Yeah, I'm sure there's crazier people, but I haven't heard of them. So we'll get through the end of this very quickly here. Definitely shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. The 419. It's on 419. It's a Saturday night, April 19th. The 420 virtual live show.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Crazy story, just like a live show, but in your living room or wherever the hell else you want to watch it. Anywhere.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
with wi-fi jimmy's gonna get super stoned i got all sorts of crazy shit to mess them all up there do that also tickets for live shows st louis chicago you're up next early may i think it's the sixth and seventh get your asses in there and come see us there it's going to be great chicago the riviera some tickets available there st louis almost sold out shut up and give me murder.com head over to uh um where am i talking about social media oh okay well that's next that's my
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
oh boy he has been and treating visitors to his chatty maw with refuse since the park opened in 1966 the push of a button located near his smiling face it's not smiling he's making an o-hole for a dick there's not a person this is just a uh it's like a plastic pig yeah yeah yeah it talks if you press the button okay is all the prodding he needs to start his pitch.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
We're at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of your bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get all the whole bonus shit, whole catalog of hundreds of them immediately upon subscription. New ones every other week, including this week. One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder. And how much do they get?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, you get all.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
whole fucking thing here so this week for crime and sports we are going to talk about the miami dolphins bullying scandal again i almost just said dolphins bullying which would be a nature show not a sports show um and then for small town murder we're going to talk about the amazon review killer who's a sick fuck who kept people kept young ladies chained up inside shipping containers it's crazy shit crazy
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Talk about him. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful fucking people who would never, ever do any of the shit that this guy did this week. Hit me with them right now.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That was very, very kind of you. You are wonderful. Honestly.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Every week with Janice Hill. Thank you, Janice Hill. I hear your name every week. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You fucking rock.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Jordan Bennett and Peyton Meadows. Yeah, thank you. Liz Vasco. They're our regulars. Thank you, guys.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That sounds like a magician. The great Goldino.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
After a couple of snorts and grunts, the low voice of one-time park caretaker Ted Gurney issues the following cheery message. Hi, kids. I'm Porky the Little Eater and I sure like to eat. You can feed me paper and cardboard, soft drink cans, but never feed me bottles or broken glass. Glass gives me a stomach ache.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Old-timey beer money.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Fall staff person is going to be here bringing that old money.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Beau Harnois. You broke him. I don't know. You broke Jimmy with his last name.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's all together. Back to back. At the same time. Fascinating.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's a recycle bin that doesn't do glass.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's got a vacuum-powered mouth. You know people have stuck their dick in here. How many people have stuck their dick in this big mouth? How many? I'd love to know.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's going to be crazy. I have apparatus that will scare Jimmy to death that he's going to have to smoke out of while we tell you a wild murder story. It's going to be so much fun wherever you are in the world. If you have Wi-Fi, you can do this and you can get this show. Absolutely get it. Shut up and give me murder dot com right now and also get tickets for the regular live shows as well. St.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Maybe that's funny. You got to go there, man. There's this park with this. You just stick your dick in there, buddy. I'll tell you what.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It will suck you into the next farm, boy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, my God. That is funny. Porky wasn't the first talking trash receptacle in Montgomery County. That honor was held by Billy the Litter Goat. Who in 1965 was at Wheaton Regional Park. But Porky is the only one that remains.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No, that's why I guess that's why glass gives you a stomachache. Yeah, they'll eat the clothes of a dead person, I think, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and a dead person.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Holy shit, that is crazy. So crime rate here, what we're interested in, property crime is actually less than the national average, about a third under the national average. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault is about half the national average. Okay. Pretty goddamn safe in this town. It's super wealthy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, if you're riding down the street in anything less than a $90,000 car, everyone's going to notice you, and you'll be caught for murder, I think.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
What are you doing staring at the art installment? Don't do that. You're not up to that. So that said, let's talk about, holy shit, some murder here. This is, wow. Okay, let's just start by talking about this guy here. All right, there's no other way to do this. Hadden, H-A-D-D-E-N is his first name, Hadden Irving Clark. He is born in 1951 and he's from Troy, New York originally.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's where he's born, but he's going to move all over the place. Just a constantly moving as a child. His parents are always going to, his dad's always going to a different job trying to make more money. And, uh,
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything in upstate New York there is a dump. So bad. These are burnt out industrial towns that still have SUNY colleges. Now they're just little college towns now.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now his parents are married and together. his whole life, which normally you'd go, okay, well, that's good. It'll be a stable upbringing. But this is not a stable upbringing. And judging by the actions of Haddon and his brother, something went wrong in this house, for sure. Like, this is not an okay household here. They move all the time, at least, like, sometimes twice a year. Oh, really?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And not just to a different house, to a different city.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, like, move to a different place completely a couple times a year, which is different. Like, I moved a lot.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Well, no, not instability. He his dad. His dad's a chemist and apparently a like top tier gun for hire to chemist back then where people were always trying to hire him away. And so he was always moving jobs to get more money. His dad's name is also Haddon. They called him Haddon Junior. This Haddon Young Haddon, even though they his dad doesn't have a middle name, but he does.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
But they still call him Junior all the time. Now, his dad was on the team that invented and was one of the heads of the team that invented saran wrap. Yeah. His dad invented plastic wrap. Wow. Every time you save something and put it in your fridge, this guy's dad had something to do with this shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Louis just about sold out. I think there's a couple of tickets in the back there left in May. And then Chicago the next night. Get your tickets. You can come to Chicago at the Riviera. San Diego sold out. I think Madison is sold out. There's a lot of sold out shows. Portland sold out. So get your tickets right now and get in there. Shut up and give me murder.com.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's very interesting.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You got to put something over it. This guy did it. He did it. How many picnics has this man saved the food of? How many picnics? How much food has he saved? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's—what are you going to do? You can fix it. When it's twisted now. Now it's twisted.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It doesn't fit. It won't go down on this side. Over here it pops up if I push down over here.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He'll take it. He's like, hold on. Got you covered.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Also helped invent fire-retardant carpeting as well.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's all carpeting now. Every carpeting is fire-retardant, whereas it used to be. It's got to have something, right? Yeah, it used to be just the most flammable thing in your house. Just burst into flames. Cotton. Yarn beneath your feet. Or worse, by then they were using synthetic shit, so it would burn even better. Yeah, they were using nylon and shit like that. Jesus. Yeah, that's a big deal.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
His father had an MBA and a PhD in chemistry. Smart son of a bitch. Used it. Very smart. But he's always wanting more money, more status, so that's why they move all the time, different jobs. Yeah. His mom's a homemaker. She takes care of the kids at home. There's four kids, so three boys and a girl. And her name is Flavia, F-L-A-V-I-A, Flavia.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now, she sounds like she's ethnic, like, ooh, maybe his mom's Spanish or something. Absolutely not. She is as blue blood. Her lineage goes back to the actual Mayflower. That's how blue blood they are. That's wild shit. And she bragged about it, that she was direct descendant from heroes of the Revolutionary War.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now, Haddon's grandfather on his father's side served as the elected mayor of White Plains, New York as well, which is a good-sized city, White Plains, just north of the Bronx. It's a decent-sized city right outside New York City.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's very nice in that area. It's expensive. It's an expensive area. Boy, oh boy. Hotels are crazy. A little pricey in that area to do anything. Now, both of the parents, Haddon Sr. and Flavia, are super nasty alcoholics, by the way. That's a problem. And not alcoholics to the point where anyone outside of the house notices it. Oh, he goes to work. He does his work very well. Comes home.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She goes to her society events, does all of her things and ties it on when they get home. Then they lock the door, drink like fish and fight with each other in front of the kids.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So, yeah, and the kids are horrified by it, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now, here's the family, the way the kids go. Brad is the oldest. Bradfield is his name. That's the first son. Bradfield goes by Brad. He's a year older than Haddon, born in 1950. Then Jeff, with a G, he's born in 1955, another brother. And then the last child is Allison, finally you have a girl. She's born in 1959.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So they had Brad. He was a boy. Terrific. They wanted Haddon to be a girl, especially mom. Flavio really, really wanted Haddon to be a girl and was super pissed that he wasn't a girl.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You are definitely also going to want to listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports and Your Stupid Opinions. Crime in Sports right now, we're doing a series on Evel Knievel, which is just amazing. What a guy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
But she will not accept that he's not a girl, which is weird. We'll talk about this. Really? Now, Allison, things are so fucked up in this house. Allison will, as a teenager, will run away from the house, never talk to her family again. Done. For a teenager to leave and never fucking come back, there's bad shit going on there. For sure. She later on, years later, said, quote, I never had a family.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, that's her quote. It's this house is a mess and it has to be a little bit about Haddon and his strange behavior as a child. He's got very strange behavior. He was late to walk, late to talk also. Oh, late bloomer, late bloomer and all sorts of shit here. Now, when he was very young or young, he rammed his brother with a bike.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And we'll talk about that and give you a little more detail on that. Oh, I'm totally on purpose. I mean, his brother's head bounced off the sidewalk. Jeffrey.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Bleeding profusely and everything like that. His mother blames his strange behavior on the doctor using the forceps wrong when he was a baby and being born and fucking fucked up his brain, squeezed his brain. Stupid. That's what she said. So, yeah, she would speculate that that had to be a brain injury from birth.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She would say it was a difficult delivery and the doctor had to use forceps to get him out. And she even claimed also that this had to have resulted in injury and left a long-lasting impact and fucked up his judgment, basically. His mother brought him to Yale University's Child Study Center at age four. These are wealthy people with education and resources.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Got to hear that. It's so much fun. You don't have to care about sports at all. The guy's...
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Well, the smartest people on the planet completely misdiagnosed him as having cerebral palsy, which he absolutely does not have, and perhaps some mild brain damage.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Which he probably does have, but definitely doesn't have cerebral palsy. And so that was a wasted trip to Yale there. Wasted trip to New Haven that day.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Jesus. Kids doesn't have palsy. Look at him for Christ's sake. What are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, Jesus. So the Clark family moves around Connecticut, New Jersey, and all over the place. It's around the Northeast where all this stuff is going on here. Rarely staying at a place for more than a year, sometimes moving twice in a year. And the parents, they have a lot of money. obviously, but they have to move around and do all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Jumping cars on a motorcycle. It's not sports.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And if you know, if you've done that as a kid, it's hard.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I did that a lot. I went to a lot of different schools and moved across the country and back. It's really hard to keep your footing and, you know, feel like you have any planted roots.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
nicer and those kids are so fucking mean oh yeah cruel you know i mean they're openly and you're not part of their yeah you're not your parents don't go to the country club with their parents for the last 20 years and all that kind of shit so are they as alcoholics are they drinking like really good you know i mean i don't know exactly who knows i assume it's why would they drink rot gut if they yeah they probably probably drinking she's probably drinking good wine he's drinking like a single malt i think they're
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So many people. Hugely popular. Also, Patreon. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of your bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get. Everything. First of all, hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before immediately upon subscription. New episodes every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So it's tough, though. Basically, he never had a solid friendship group. You have to constantly adjust to new surroundings, which will make you either quiet or will make you a comedian like me. So that's what happened.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Well, I guess I figured out if I'm funny that people will like me and I'll make friends easier. It's a lot easier to do. So, yeah, so they had to do that. A lot of moves, a lot of shipping around and everything like that. So you have to figure it out, figure it out and figure out how to do it. And he's not good at this stuff.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And part of it is he doesn't really have a good base of him, like a good base of knowing who he is at home. At home, he's teased at school and at home. Basically, he's picked on everywhere, mainly by his parents.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Well, his father had a nickname for him.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's what he'd go, where's the retard, he would say. And that meant hadn't. Yep. And he would say, hey, retard, come here. I get that this isn't nice, but this is what he would call his fucking son.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. This is when he's like five, six.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They all knew that was his nickname. We call him Sonny, we call him Spanky, and that's the retard. Like, that's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You get it all, my friends. This week, what you're going to get for crime and sports. We're going to talk about the Dolphins, Miami Dolphins bullying scandal. I just say dolphins. You'll think dolphins are bullying each other, which would be. It's a scandal, man. I don't know how we'd even quantify that. You bottom-nose fuck. Hey, quit doing that. Quit stealing his tuna.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's so fucking mean, man, and terrible. It's his own father.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. Later on, while talking to a psychiatrist, this is horrifying when he's an adult talking to a psychiatrist. He said that when he was growing up, before he like knew what you like, your official name was like on a birth certificate or something. He thought that retard was part of his name. He thought that was he thought he was hadn't retard Irving Clark. Like he thought that was his name.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Like the Bill Cosby joke. Yeah. I thought my name was Jesus Christ. That's exactly what it is. God damn it. God damn it. Jesus Christ. Get in the car. Yeah. Wow. So that's what he thought. He actually thought that.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now, his mother gave him a different nickname for a completely different reason.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
His mother, upset that he was not a girl.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No, no, no. Upset that he wasn't a girl and not having a girl until he's eight years old would dress him up in girls clothes and call him Kristen. No, you can't do that. So, like, this kid has no idea who he is, essentially.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, that's in his mind. He has no idea.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he thinks his name is Haddon Retard Kristen Irving Clark. That's a lot of names.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And the parents, while they're doing this, while they're being horrible to him, abusive as shit, they're also, like I said, alcoholics who fight not only verbally but physically in front of the children as well.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So this is a mess, a goddamn mess. One classmate said that he remembered both Bradfield and Haddon, the brothers, were both mean and quick-tempered. and said that Haddon had a learning problem and a speech impediment, and he attended a special school as well.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. So he went to a special school from the time he was 6 to 15.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yes. And then obviously he would think that of himself anyway, and then rather than the dad going, no, no, no, it's just some people learn at different paces, buddy. He'll be fine. His dad goes, hey, retard, which is not going to help this kid at all.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And the kids in the neighborhood are going to pick on him for that, obviously. Forever. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. This classmate said Haddon would get angry and go into a corner and pout all the time. The kids didn't want to play with him. Oh. That's how he was. Another childhood friend of his said that he had a speech impediment and a quick temper and said that sometimes he couldn't control himself. If something didn't go his way, he'd get very upset.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't even know what you do. So we'll talk about that from back in 2012, Richie Incognito and all that. There's some new stuff that's come out recently. And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about the Amazon review killer, one of the craziest, weirdest guys we've ever heard of. So we'll talk about him, that and more. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well here.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
All the kids would walk away and wait for him to calm down. He'd have a tantrum and they all knew to just leave him alone, basically. So the next door neighbor here, this is the next door neighbor for a while until the Clark family moved to Rhode Island in 1962.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
called had an amik child mischievous at times but i don't remember him as a problem child no because he's he's just beaten down that everybody's beaten up on and not a problem child Well, all this is going on. His parents are active in all the outside activities. They're active in the Boy Scout troops. They go to PTA meetings. They're in the church group. They are members of civic organizations.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
All this nice stuff is going on on the surface. They look like the perfect family. And then you know what goes on behind closed doors. It's messed up. So the only thing that the father did with Haddon that didn't involve insulting him or beating him up was they took him hunting. That was the quality time they spent together was hunting.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, let's teach this kid. But that could go either way. That could be something that he could be interested in and whatever. Or you could just be teaching an angry person how to be violent. That's the other thing.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You never know. Or it could be good for him.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's because neither of us had that with our fathers, too, so we don't know. You didn't know your dad. My dad has never been a hunter. He's never hunted anything.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't care. I'm not judging anybody. I don't give a shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Don't kill anything endangered, please. That'd be nice.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, yeah. It seems odd. It's bizarre. It depends on where you are, too, because some people live in the woods and they, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's the problem. It's the shitting.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
There's going to be too much poop on the forest floor here. We've got to clean this up. Can't even hike. Okay. So the elder Haddon was a big hunter, and he taught Junior here how to trap animals. Mm-hmm. So Haddon here, the young Haddon Jr., rather than keep just doing this on hunting trips, he would trap all sorts of shit in the backyard.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
See, this kid isn't right in the head to be teaching him this stuff. So he would trap every little furry animal he could find, fucking rabbits and possums and squirrels and raccoons and anything here. So, yeah, he would do this. He would torture them. Until they died. Every once in a while he would let one live for some reason, though, which nobody ever understood here. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
One of them that he let live was a raccoon that he caught and he kept it as a pet.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's funny as shit. He trained it. He trained it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He would ride his bicycle around with the raccoon clinging to his head and neck. What? Yeah, just hanging off his head and neck.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Jimmy will mispronounce your name, even though we'd love to get it correct. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. That said, disclaimer time. It's a comedy show, everybody. It is. We are comedians. These are terrible stories with awful things that happen. And there's also jokes. It happens to be. It happens to be jokes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It would hold on to him, yeah. Amazing. And so the kids thought it was like basically a live action Davy Crockett hat because back then that was a popular thing, the coonskin cat. Yeah, sure. He had a real one. He also did bad things with these animals, like dissecting them, which is weird, unless you're in science class. And if kids picked on him, he would catch their pets and decapitate them.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yes, that's how he would get them back.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Fuck yeah. Catch a little dog and kill it if you want to, I'm sure, if you're a sick fuck. So obviously he's got mental problems. This is not normal. He's in and out of psych wards and special treatment facilities as a child as well. And the parents, this is a lot of money that's going out. They're paying for this. They're not putting them in some county facility in some padded room.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They're sending them to some fancy psychiatrist and shit like that. But his dad always had the money for it, so that wasn't a big deal here. His brother now, Brad, issues as well. Brad began doing drugs when he was about 10 years old and was very aggressive. At one instance, he got a hold of a gun and used it to shoot out the windows of the next door neighbor's vehicle.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And they said, why did you do that? Why were you mad? He said, I wasn't mad. Just did it, quote, for the heck of it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Just felt like window shatter would be fun.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You find a car in the woods abandoned and you do that. That's how you do that. Every town has a car in the woods abandoned somewhere that you can shoot up.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Take something. Now, Brad had at one point told his mother that his brother Brad had taken him up in a tree house and sexually assaulted him.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
His brother denied it and his mother just ignored it and acted like it didn't happen. So Brad was doing things to his brother here. Haddon fails two grades in elementary school. His intelligence later on is found to be average to low average IQ wise and shit like that. Haddon's brother, Jeff, talks about the younger brother, about four years younger. He talked about Haddon having a mean streak.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And they said he didn't even know where it came from. And oftentimes Jeff was the target of the meanness because people would pick on him. He can't get them back, but he can get his little brother and make him hurt. So he said something always seemed off about Haddon here. He said, quote, Haddon was always strange. He was always different.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
As a child, he'd ignore people when they asked him a question sometimes or run away. It's an odd reaction to that. How was school today?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I'm running. It wasn't that he was being rude. The concept of rude wasn't there for him. It's like someone who doesn't taste sweet. If you give them a plate of strawberries, they're not going to taste them. Rude didn't occur to him. Never even thought about it. He just never thought about it. As he got older, a lot of his emotional development didn't move beyond being eight or 10, which is true.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
We'll find out later. As a kid, he did a lot of impulsive things, but it didn't matter. As he got older, it began to matter. This is all a quote from Jeff that continues. There were a lot of times when I got hurt from something stupid he did. I have the scars. One time we were riding our bikes and we were trying to learn to ride one handed and I told him not to ride too close to me, but he did.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now, the jokes don't happen during the murders because there really isn't anything funny about murder. The actual act of murder isn't very funny, but the actual act of I think I can get away with murder.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And when we were just learning, so we didn't have that much control, he swerved in front of me and I fell and hit my head. Hadden ran home. By the way, hit his head, split his head open, bleeding all over the sidewalk, unable to move. Hadden ran home and when he saw my parents, he said, don't worry, the bike's all right.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, I remember having my dad at one point having two cars, and one was nicer than the other. And he said, that's death, and this one is mega death. Don't hit that one. Because we were playing basketball. So all of my friends knew, don't hit the car with the ball or James' father will kill us. So it was like everyone was terrified of him.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said that in front of my friends when I was like 12. They were all like, oh, shit, don't hit the cars. Goddamn. So, yeah, you get that in your head. But I said he just didn't have the care. The one place, there's one place in the world where Haddon feels comfortable and safe. And that is at his grandparents' house.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yes. Somehow his grandparents here. I don't know. They're decent people, even though they've raised either one of these people. His parents are monsters.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And here's what I'll do to do that. That can be a lot of fun. So that's where we try to concentrate on all that. The stories are as real as they get, unfortunately. No details are made up or embellished and all that kind of thing. But what we do, though, here is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Something. So this was in Cape Cod. His parents lived.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Very nice. So he'd go there. His grandparents were always there. He visited them every summer. He'd come. He would fish. Sounds like a fucking dream. I'd love to do that.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Going to the Cape every summer?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's like Tom Hanks in Splash, this fucking guy. I'm jealous.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He would fish and... do all the nature stuff. And he said, these were the happiest days of his life. And Jeff said, the days we spent there were the most wonderful time of Haddon's life. They were for all of us.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I mean, his grandparents treat them great, and it's just like it's a totally different life for them. Totally different life. So that's nice. Now, as a teenager, he is discovered to enjoy wearing adult women's clothing sometimes. Yeah. Now, he is much like Ed Wood. Ed Wood is a filmmaker. I don't know if everybody's heard of Ed Wood, but Ed Wood is known as like the worst director of all time.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He made Plan 9 from Outer Space, which is considered like, you know, the one of the worst movies that's ever been made back in that era. Ed Wood, I know a lot about him because he's from Poughkeepsie, actually. He worked at the Barnabas Theater when he was a kid and shit. But there's a good movie, the Tim Burton movie with Johnny Depp, as Ed Wood do. It's very good.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
But I've read books and stuff about Ed Wood, and Ed Wood liked to wear women's clothing. He was an extremely straight guy. He was a World War II veteran, and he was a paratrooper, for Christ's sake. I mean, fucking big balls on this guy. And he said that he was never scared of... of being killed, he was only scared of being injured and having the medics find his bra and underwear.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Under the uniform, yeah. He said that's all he was scared of, was that. That's what was terrifying him about being in the army.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No, no, no, absolutely not. This is a big thing like this. There's a lot of, apparently a lot of men who like, that are like straight and that are not... They're not even like, you know, there's no transness or there's no. They just like wearing women's clothes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't know. So I don't know what that is. And he once told his mother, I like my lady's clothing. Don't try and change me. OK. He hadn't said that to his mom when he was like 12. Don't try to change me. He's like burst into a Lady Gaga song after that. And they were like, I guess just let him wear the bra. Yeah. Just let him wear it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
This week in Bethesda, Maryland, a sick, twisted man quietly kills for years using an odd alter ego and even eating parts of certain victims while drawing strange pictures and confessing to a man that he thinks is Jesus. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So weeks after he got caught doing that, he was involved in a peeping Tom incident that resulted in police intervention, which isn't great. That's heavy. Apparently, his father would try to change him in his saying that he said, I'm going to change this boy by beating this out of him with a belt. Oh, boy. He would get hadn when he would come out of the bathtub naked.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. That's how that works. See? It's real easy. So if you think that that sounds good to you, you're going to hear one of the craziest stories ever. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, they don't mix, then, I mean, I don't know. Maybe we're not for you, but maybe we are. Either way, no complaining later.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
His father would rush in the room with a belt and start beating the shit out of him when he was, like, wet and drying off.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, it's wild. So at 15, he was sent to a conventional school away from the special school, regular high school out of the special education school and immediately fell behind again and couldn't keep up. And, you know, it was a hard time. OK, now 19. 64, age 14. This is when he claims to have murdered his first victim.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
We don't know anything about this because it's very vague, but he said he murdered his first victim who was a boy, a child, and he says his father helped cover it up.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Which kind of would make sense because his father wouldn't want that being public for himself. But we don't know the details about that or anything about that. That's just something he mentions later. But when he was 16, a woman hired him to work in her yard, you know, do yard work, found him in her house. He's supposed to be out in the yard. Instead, he's in the house wearing her nightgown.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Goddamn. Yeah, that'll get you fired from the yard work pretty quick. Yeah. That is interesting. A year later, his mom, this was before, well after the incidents of catching him wearing, quote, catching him wearing women's clothing, but his parents came across him wearing a nightgown and standing in front of a mirror.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So his mother mentioned these incidents to the therapist he was seeing because this is the thing. He's in therapy this entire time. This isn't like, oh, you know, these parents don't know what to do and they just stick him in a room. He's in therapy. He goes to see doctors. All of this shit is, you know, documented.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So the therapist recommend that she not confront him and just let him just leave him alone about it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. The doctor knows, too, that it's not like – It's not a trigger.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It doesn't matter. Exactly. Just leave them alone.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, more than that. Yeah, absolutely.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They always say, this many drug addicts started out by smoking this or smoking pot or drinking alcohol. I bet 100 out of 100 started out by drinking milk. Like, where do we stop going back and figuring it out?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's these fucking Gerber people. Those are the people you blame. Like, who are you going to blame? Big Gerber. Big Gerber. So 1972, he graduates from high school at 21 years old.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That said, I think it's time, everybody. Let's all sit back, clear the lungs. What do you say here? And let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah, we shall. Let's do it. We are going to Maryland this week. We are in Bethesda, Maryland. This is in Central. It seems like a popular place. It is. We've all heard of Bethesda.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Who's coming to the bar afterwards? Oh, just me? Okay. Never mind. Just me and the mill workers? Okay. Shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That sucks. He's a big guy too. He's 6'2". He sounds like a little squirrely guy, but he's not. He's a big guy. He's a man. Not like a big heavy guy. He's kind of lanky, but he's 6'2". He's a big guy. So he likes cooking. That's what he likes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So his family was... absolutely fucking thrilled to find out he had an interest they're like you're interested in something apart from girls clothing or trapping and killing animals great a normal thing that's actually a career fucking terrific they don't care if it's oh we want you to be a chemist or go to Yale A job is great for this fucking weirdo.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's it. And he wants to be a cook, which is, that is also a profession where weird behavior, things like that, completely ignored. If you can keep up during rush, no one cares what you do. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You can keep all those steak temps straight while keeping up during a rush from six to seven. I don't give a shit if you go out in the fucking parking lot, rip kittens' heads off and drink their bloods from their body like a mug. Doesn't matter.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No one cares. Nobody cares. And that is one of the biggest things in the industry of restaurants is no one cares what the fuck you do if you can keep up in the kitchen. He ends up there. They want to do everything they can to help him do this. So they use all of their resources and connections and everything else to get him a spot at the Culinary Institute of America.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
CIA up the street from my house there in High Park, New York. Now, this is, by the way, the exact same time that Anthony Bourdain was here. Oh, this is really weird. He has like I wish Anthony Bourdain was alive for a lot of reasons, but I really want to know if he knew this guy because he not only went to culinary school at the same school at the same time or within a year.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
But they also both worked in Provincetown and restaurants. There was a big like a pipeline between the Culinary Institute and all of their while they were working there like summers while they were going to school. And also like when they graduated a lot of them worked in Provincetown.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Which is off Cape Cod. It's a big, kind of a big gay place.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's a huge party. So that, that's all tons of restaurants. And that was a place that had big kitchens that would hire culinary Institute people and a good place to get your feet wet. And Anthony Bourdain worked there for years, for a couple of years when he first started. So, so did this guy. So they must've known each other.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Cause all these, all of the cooks would all end up with the same bars after shifts. Cause they all get off at the same time. So, It's really interesting. So they get him into CIA, which is, you know, on a beautiful place, a beautiful school and everything like that. And not only is he a decent cook, he's fucking amazing at ice sculptures. Amazing. Incredible. Like really good.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's so weird. Yeah, he's got definite things he's skilled at. Like so good they were saying, holy shit, you're going to do really well because these fancy parties, they all have ice sculptures. And if you can do that, you charge a fortune for those.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Crush that shit. So apparently he was very skilled with a knife and they said he could carve anything out of a block of ice, just anything he wanted. Graduates from the Culinary Institute of America in the spring of 1974. Gets lucky he graduated because he got in trouble a couple times. Number one for urinating into vats of mashed potatoes. What?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
In retaliation against slights that he perceived against him. Because the students cook, the way the CIA works is students cook for the other students. So you're always either cooking for the other students or eating what the other students have cooked. So he was mad at the other students. So he pissed in the potatoes. He made pissy potatoes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Bethesda has been... I don't know why. Was it... I don't know. I feel like those old TV ads... There was people that were like, you know, send a self-addressed stamped envelope. It was something. I think a lot of that shit came maybe there. Slap chop. Yeah, I think that's what it was maybe. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
This is my specialty. You're going to taste that. This is my specialty, pissy parsley potatoes. You're going to love them. You can taste that. That's piss and parsley.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, you can smell that.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, it's in there. Don't worry. So after graduation, he can't keep a job, though, for more than a few months because he is to show up every day and do your job and leave. You have to have some form of stability, at least at work. He was hired by a few really nice restaurants, too, because back then, you know, if you were a CIA graduate, anybody would hire you. In their kitchen.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You know what I mean? There wasn't a lot of – it's not like now where there's so many chefs and cooks and people. Back then, cooking was not a glamorous job. It wasn't a cool job. It wasn't anything like that at all. So he would always get fired though. And, man, people weren't going to deal with this shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Basically, the way these employers put it is he tried to act like he did with his family with them and they weren't putting up with this shit basically. Yeah. here you show up, you do your job, you go home, shut the fuck up.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's a lot. He got fired for doing weird shit, like chugging beef blood in the kitchen at one point.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Just chugging it. So they were like, OK, he's too weird. You're fired. Sorry.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't know if it's to keep him away. His grandparents, who he loves and who have always taken care of him. His grandfather dies in 1975. Fuck. And his grandfather was apparently taking care of his grandmother, who was in poor health. His grandmother ends up going to a nursing home after that.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The peak of culinary importance. Cruise ship cuisine. Making buffets for old people at that point in time. That's what that was. People in wheelchairs. Yeah, making food that is friendly to dentures. Denture-friendly fare. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. Soft, mushy shit. This is on the SS Norway. And that was after a while. That's all he could do was be a chef on a cruise ship because restaurants wouldn't hire him anymore. Essentially, he would recall later that most of the other cooks were Korean. And so and they didn't speak any English.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he was just talking to people in English and they would talk to him in Korean. But the weird part is this worked out well for him because they didn't think he was weird because they didn't know what the fuck he was saying or doing. So they thought he was fine. He didn't know what they were saying. Everybody got along because they couldn't talk. Yeah. He stayed in this for almost a year.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
This is the longest he's ever had a job at once. After that, he ends up taking jobs at a couple different Long Island banquet halls. Wow. And he actually has a three-week assignment at the 1980 Olympic Games in Lake Placid as well. Awesome. I don't know if those athletes – maybe that was the thing that propelled our hockey team over Russia was urine potatoes. That's what did it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Remember, allow six to eight weeks for shipping or whatever the hell. You want this thing off TV, you can have it two months from now.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The power of this man's urine propelled them to the biggest upset in Olympic history. the potatoes these potatoes so he his mother and his father are going to divorce in the early 80s they're going to get separated yeah his father goes on to marry a much younger woman obviously because he's got money he's got saran wrap money he wraps her in saran wrap to keep her fresh
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he and his father completely ignored the kids after that, even though they're all adults. It was like, oh, well, now I got I'm banging this young lady now.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So Haddon, by 1982, he's between jobs. He's having a hard time. He ends up moving in with his mother, who's living by herself at the time. And she wanted to help him get his shit together and told him, listen, you can live here. No rent. All you need to do is do a few chores here or there. But after a while, they started to argue and things kind of got out of control.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
At one point, an argument escalates to the point where Haddon beats his mother up so bad she calls the cops. So this resulted in him being brought up on assault charges, but then it was dismissed.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Well, we'll find out some stuff about it here. It's in central Maryland. Maryland's like a lot of panhandles all together.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
But she didn't want to press charges on him that's why she just didn't but she did realize that they couldn't live together any longer so she felt sorry for him she would let him sleep in a shed on the property if he had nowhere else to go he was allowed to sleep in the shed. Soon, he said, I have to get my life together here, by the way. This is crazy. I'm sleeping in a fucking shed.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I have no job. And he's a skilled chef and stuff. I mean, he's literally a Culinary Institute graduate. He knows how to do things, but he can't keep it together long enough. He says, I know what I'll do here. He ends up joining the Navy. That's his fucking solution to this. Yeah. Now, a couple of things.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Back in the 70s, when he graduated from Culinary Institute, his first few jobs were in Provincetown, just like Anthony Bourdain was there. He says later on that while in Provincetown, we'll have more details later, he said he killed several women in the sand dunes and buried them in the sand dunes. Really? Really. Yes. He said he he cut. Wow. He Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The middle one here. Yeah, they definitely kind of made that one up as far as the land goes. There's no natural borders to it where you go, yeah, that's where it ends. Oh, yeah. Apart from the-
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He cut this one woman up because she bit him. So he killed her. I guess he tried to rape the first woman, but after he murdered her, but it didn't work. He couldn't do it. So he tried to be a necrophiliac and couldn't get do it here. Another woman here, he claims that and we'll get more details later.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He claimed he murdered her, buried her nude under the sand dune, first removing her hands and wrists and then cutting her fingers off and cutting them at the knuckles and using the pieces of finger as bait for surf fishing. That is insane. Yeah, that's fucking wild.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I'd never heard if he caught anything. I was curious, too. He's like, I got the biggest sailfish, boy. It's beautiful.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No, it didn't work. So he joins the Navy, and he's a below-deck cook. He's got cooking skills. That's what they're going to have him do. He works on a nuclear aircraft at the time called the USS Carl Vinson.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's a big one. It's a big one, yeah. He's one of the cooks. He was assigned as a cook, and his duties were basically the same as the cruise ship. He's on a ship, and he's putting shit out there. So he's going to try. He's going to try to make it go, but after a while, he, of course, gets pissy with everything. He doesn't like being bossed around.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
In the ocean and the rivers. It's about 20 minutes to Washington, D.C. from here. Okay. And about 45 minutes to Baltimore, so it's actually closer to D.C. than Baltimore here.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He doesn't like the commanding officers telling him what to do, which is the whole point of the military. Yeah. If you don't like people telling you what to do, the military is not for you. You got to be able to deal with that shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He had some run-ins here after one of a little problem with some fellow sailors. Some of the fellow naval people stuffed him in a meat locker for over three hours.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
made him stay in there um that is pretty interesting here uh he also he got transferred a couple times he was sent to a different ship the uss theodore roosevelt and things didn't get better there um he at one point uh people who were mad at him waited for his shift to end then jumped him and his head was viciously smashed against the deck of the ship multiple times
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Well, they asked, what the hell happened here, Haddon? And he said, quote, they were jealous of my cooking skills. So he beat him nearly to death because he cooked well. That's pretty ridiculous. It's more likely it's just he's a weird guy and he does weird things and he doesn't know how to fucking talk to people.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He'll also later say they found out that he wore women's underwear and they didn't like that about him to begin with. He was sent on. He was his stint on Iwo Jima was pretty brief as well. He goes there. He had apparently a break with reality at some point, lost his mind. I mean, he's had a break for a while and was sent to a psychiatric hospital for a an evaluation and was deemed unfit for duty.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Possibly, yeah. That's a possibility. About two hours and 45 minutes to Pocomoke City, Maryland, which is our last episode in Maryland, Gone Like a Ghost. That was a very weird episode there, just a disappearance completely. This is in Montgomery County, area code 301. The motto here is an uncommon mix of life and style.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So they beat him half to death. That makes sense. So Jeff, his brother, said that a massive head injury from this beating is kind of what caused, quote, his danger potential to become unleashed. This head injury fucked him up. He said this about his brother. Something in this beating changed him.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Probably it was a combination of the actual beating of his head and some emotional stuff that happened afterwards. Instead of just being carelessly dangerous, he was then somehow able to justify his acts of violence.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yes, this is real weird. So June of 85, he's discharged from the Navy, diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, and given a medical discharge.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He told them he thought he had a split personality. He said he doesn't like hurting people, but he sometimes does things that he wasn't aware that he did. Whoa. He also said he heard voices tell him he couldn't trust anyone. That's a problem. And as a result, he only talked to himself. Whoa. He'd see things that weren't there. He'd hallucinate.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
At times, his speech would wander off into weird shit. He would say things that don't make any sense. It's really weird. He was given a 30% disability status at the time, which gave him a small pension.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He can't hold a job. He's a wacky son of a bitch. So he's having a lot of this little bit of money helps him, obviously. So he gets home, gets discharged, and he has nowhere really to go. So lucky for him, his brother Jeff is in the middle of a divorce. So he moves into Jeff's basement. This is on Sudley Spring Road in Silver Spring, Maryland.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
By the way, Haddon will not take the medicine they prescribed him for his paranoid schizophrenia. He's not doing that at all. He just doesn't give a shit and won't do it. So Jeff here, he's got other problems as well. Jeff earned a degree in microbiology at Ohio State University. Wow. His brother, Brad, also had an advanced degree. Really? Yeah. He married his childhood sweetheart.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I mean, he's living the American fucking John Cougar Mellencamp song dream here. And made their way to the Maryland suburbs, and he got a job with the Food and Drug Administration.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They had a nice house. They have three kids. And then shit turns ugly and they get a divorce.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Well, Marcia accuses Jeff of physically abusing her twice. And he was convicted on charges of that, getting a suspended sentence for domestic battery as well.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You know, well, speaking of like childhood, let's talk about his other brother, Brad.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
What did he do? Brad's a bad guy, real bad guy. What's he up to? Now, Brad's a successful guy. He's good at college and a job and all that kind of thing. He married a woman in 1977, and they got divorced by 79. Nice. In fact, that'll work.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
About two years. You're like, well, this isn't working. Well, that's giving it a chance, and it ain't working. Okay. Because there are people who get married and then get divorced in like a year. You're like, you didn't even try. You didn't even give it a chance. Two years, you go, that's enough. So he had moved to California by the early 80s. He started a good job at a computer firm then.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, God, Jesus. That's uncommon. That's such a marketing. They hired a company. Yeah, they paid five grand for that, and someone gave them that slogan. Some of the history here, a little bit. Most of the settlers here were tenant farmers who paid their rent in tobacco. Oh. Try that now. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't understand it. It was like seeing this girl for a little bit, seeing this woman, not even for that long, and when she didn't want anything to do with him anymore. He's a divorced man. He's had relationships fall apart. But this one broke his ass, man. It fucking broke him. Even people at work noticed he got weird all of a sudden.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Anyway, he ends up meeting another woman named Patricia Mack, or Mack, M-A-C-K. She showed up at work there. And Brad liked her. And she liked him. That's great. Problem is, she's married.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Which isn't good, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They, I guess, had a little affair, but then she chose to stick with her husband. Which will happen. And but she still ended up talking to Brad and being kind of they said they don't know if it was physical at that point, but it was at least an emotional affair. They were saying with Brad, she stayed in contact with him even after she got a different job and left.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So she didn't even have to see him every day.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She wants something.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, for sure. Why else are you keeping in touch with someone you had sex with unless there's something going on there?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Something you never know. At least it's like a dick in a glass case at that point. Case of emergency, smash away. And he looks at it the same way. So there is one time here where Patricia's husband is out of town on business and Brad invites Patricia over for dinner. Uh-oh. So she accepts. Why not? I guess she's going to come over. I mean, yeah, well for her, it's why, why let's do it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Patricia's shirts off and, you know, everything like that. And apparently he starts going to work on her nipples. Right. Just, you know, licking and stuff like that. He starts biting.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
starts biting hard oh what to the point where she said hey stop that hurts yeah too hard um so he but she was she said you're gonna leave marks and my husband's gonna see them you know how that works but he kept doing it so she like slapped him like hey stop biting you know i get that you're all into it but you gotta chill the fuck out thanks for the enthusiasm but yeah
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So Brad gets angry at being slapped, and rather than stopping, he bites the tip of her nipple off. Oh, my God. That's horrifying. Dude, that's horrifying. Yeah. He fucking bit her nipple off, man. I don't even know. She's in trouble now. Yeah. So she got away from him, but fell down crying in pain and bleeding, obviously. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So apparently a neighbor hears these screams but doesn't know what's going on. So she doesn't call the cops.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Just tobacco. Just give them a pile of Marlboros and see if that's – is this good?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I bet she wished she would have, or at least this Patricia woman wished she would have. So as Patricia tried to get away, Brad corners her in a room in his house and just beats her beyond recognition. Oh, no. He beat her head so hard that he knocked her out, obviously. And that's when he was like, oh, shit, I've been beating this woman so hard that he fucking said I knocked her out.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he ends up grabbing his keys getting a pack of cigarettes and leaving. He takes off on foot apparently deciding to walk around because he's drunk. She is unconscious and bleeding on his floor. So he walks and smokes and does all this type of shit. And you'd think he's trying to calm down. That's the thing. Instead, he must have been coming up with some crazy fucking plan because he gets back.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And instead of trying to save her and take her to the hospital, he drags her still unconscious body to his bathroom and cuts her right breast off of her body. The one he bit the nipple off of. Yes. Then he took it, left her unconscious on the floor.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Is that all right or no? We're square. A couple reviews of this town here. We'll get through them pretty quick because we have a lot of crazy story here. Here's five stars. Okay. What I love the most about Bethesda is its safety. Having lived in several countries, that doesn't sound good when we're talking about on a show called Small Town Murder.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. He totally fucking he beat her savagely. And he's a big guy. Savagely beat her. He took. That's not the weird part, though. Yeah. He took her breast outside and put it on the grill and cooked it and ate it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He cooked. That was the idea. Her breast and ate it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I got it. I got it. I'm a little.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I'm peckish. I could go for a bite.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So that's wild. He then went inside. He doused Patricia's crotch with rubbing alcohol and set it on fire.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
This is fucking crazy. So he then got a butcher knife from the kitchen and absolutely carved her up with it. I mean, came in there and it's fucking horrifying. He cut off her arms. He cut off her legs.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He cut off her head and even cut her torso in half with very good precision, by the way. Knew what he was doing.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
From blood loss. We don't know at what point she died. Who knows? She had a broken skull and we have no clue what exactly killed her. But it is horrifying. He then stuffs everything into plastic bags and throws them out in a remote location, just trash bags. So that's that. So the problem is when her husband gets home, he's pretty worried that his wife is missing.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She's a real stable lady with a steady job and everything like that. So one thing leads to another, and next thing you know, the cops are talking to Brad.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They talk to her job and they go on her friends and they know that she's been seeing this guy and all this type of shit. He lied. So she wasn't with me. I don't fucking know. So the cops leave and then Brad starts to feel some remorse, apparently. So shortly after the police left, he had a mental breakdown and stabbed himself in the stomach in an attempt to commit suicide.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
But he didn't bleed to death. So he ended up calling an ambulance. So then when he's at the hospital, he confesses to the police about what he did. Remember how you came by earlier asking about her? Well, yeah. So that is pretty fucking interesting here. Brad is put on trial for first degree murder and he he cooperates and confesses and he gets 15 years to life for the murder.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
By the way, he's eligible for parole in 2002. At that point, we'll talk about how that worked out. Okay. So back to Haddon. But that's Brad at this point. So while Haddon is losing his fucking mind doing weird shit, his brother has gone completely off the deep end into cannibalism.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
What happened in that house to cause this? You know, like to cause with the parents to cause this shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Wow, she is. She took off and said, I never had a family. She just made her own life. Fuck these people. She's the only one who got out unscathed, I feel like. Wow. So October 1985, this is a young nine-year-old girl named Sarah Pryor. Okay. that Haddon kills this young girl. She vanished after going for a walk on Route 26 in Wayland at 4 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said it's definitely the safest place I've lived in.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The Pryors were new in town, just moved in from near Boston, and she just disappeared into thin air, her father said. Don't have any idea what happened. They said that they got in touch with the police department there. She had disappeared in Wayland. They said, quote, at approximately 4 p.m. that day, Sarah Pryor told her father she was going for a walk in the neighborhood.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
We know that she walked north on Concord Road for approximately one and a half miles. She was seen by several individuals at places along the route. At some point, don't know exactly where, it's our belief that she was abducted. But we have no crime scene, no witnesses, no physical evidence. We do not know what happened to this child. That's what the police report said.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Okay. Moreover, it's very international. I also love how clean it is and how green everything looks during the summer. However, it's very residential, so it's not a very walkable city. How many times did they say very in this review? A few. It also can be a bit too calm sometimes. Yeah. Okay, a little too calm, not enough partying.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They called her your basic average happy-go-lucky nine-year-old girl, shy around strangers, family-oriented, athletic, does well in school. Later on, when she's missing, there's a message on the Berlin Wall about her.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
People would write messages on the Berlin Wall before they took it down. And one of the messages was about her. Yeah. It said, where is this here? Yeah. They wrote a thing about her disappearance and, you know, all that kind of thing. Her father said, I was at home on the day she was abducted. She had made herself a dish of jello. She watched a TV show and finished eating the dish of jello.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's wild shit. They said they've kept her room just the same as it was. They said, we expect the worst and pray for the best. And the cop said that I work on this case every day, made a promise to the parents I'll never stop working on it. He also said none of us could believe something this terrible could happen in our community. It was unthinkable. Now people think about it all the time.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's certainly brought right up close that we are not safe here either.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Safe anywhere. So I guess Sarah was starting to feel comfortable. They said that she was going on walks like exploring because they had just moved there. Her mom said Sarah was shy and I was teaching her to be more trusting of other people. Going for a walk was a big deal for her. She was proud to go explore.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The last thing she said to my husband was, I'm going to go further today than I've ever gone before. That's the difference between the 80s. In the 80s, a nine-year-old girl would say that, and you'd go, okay, bye. Good for you. Now they'd be like, no, you're fucking not. Not without me, you're not going anywhere farther than you've gone before. Are you crazy?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So after the girl disappeared, the parents' marriage dissolved, and it turned into a big mess, obviously. It's... It's tough. So they said tips have led police to search parts of Boston, Baltimore, Rhode Island and Cape Cod for signs of Sarah. All have turned out to be either psychic speculation, cruel frauds or sightings of girls who look like Sarah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So they said the parents said they stopped getting their hopes up after a while. The mother said she holds out no hope that Sarah is alive, but she hopes the killer will be caught. She says the mother says she's certain of she knows who did it. Oh. A convicted murderer in Texas named John Wordy. She said that's who's responsible for Sarah's death.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Wayland Police Chief Gerald Galvin, who was head of the investigation in Wayland from the start, said that Wordy, this guy, a 50-year-old, was in the area the day Sarah disappeared. Witnesses reported seeing a car similar to Wordy stopped at various points along Concord Road on the afternoon of October 9th, 1985.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And police believe that he returned to Massachusetts in 1994 after being released early from his prison sentence for strangling a Texas teenager. Six weeks after Sarah disappeared, Wordy tried to force a Newton woman into his car at knife point, but the woman escaped. So wordy was sentenced to seven to 12 years in Massachusetts prison.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It depends on what you're looking for, I guess, right? One star. We've lived in Bethesda for a year, and we cannot wait until our lease expires so we can get out of Bethesda. My car was broken into a month after moving to the, quote, nice neighborhood. Well, that's where the nice cars are to break into.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
After his release, he went back to Texas for violating the conditions of his murder parole and he was put back in prison. Now they questioned him and he told the police, I have nothing to do with that Sarah Pryor shit. I don't even know anything about it. So no, didn't happen. And he's, he wasn't lying.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And it wasn't him. Pryor's family said that the Wayland police received anonymous letters that year on December 16th and 17th that said Sarah's body could be found in a well near six cottages protected by a row of pine trees. Yeah, they were typewritten letters postmarked from Boston, said the well was in Rhode Island, about 10 miles from the Massachusetts border.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They said that Rhode Island police failed to turn up any trace of Sarah, though. They said the fact that they have not found the body is encouraging. Well, not really, because she's probably not. That's not great.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. A lot of these people were psychic sending letters, too, which is getting hopes up and shit. They offer a reward. A $30,000 reward is offered for information to get Sarah back. They said, we know that a nine-year-old little girl cannot have disappeared without someone knowing what happened to her. That's a fact.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She didn't just fucking take off and start college.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. I'm sure she started her own business. When you first start your business, it takes a long time to get it off the ground. She's been working hard.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Nine and a half. She's doing great. So early 1986, Haddon is arrested for shoplifting women's underwear. Okay. So we all knew he did that. He's getting brand new ones, huh? He wears the women's underwear under his pants. That's what he wears all the time. That's what he likes. During all of this, Haddon Sr., who had been suffering from pancreatic cancer, commits suicide.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He kills himself. Right. That's the move. A pancreatic cancer is a tough one. And I don't know. His son is one son is a fucking cannibal.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Got found out for cannibalism and murder. His other son is a fucking nutcase. I think this guy is just like, OK, his daughter left, ran away, never came back. I think it's just I'm done.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Something. He should anyway. Yeah. So May of 1986, Jeff and Haddon, they're living together. Haddon has got himself a cooking job at a local country club. And he's got some money saved up. He's got a pension check coming in too. So he pays his brother $500 in rent, which is a lot actually for a basement in the 80s. but he liked hanging out with his brother and his brother needed the money.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So that's kind of his brother's going through a hard times, a hard time. He just got divorced. He lost custody of his kids and hadn't would help out by occasionally picking up the children for visits. If Jeff was at work or something. So Jeff liked the extra money. He liked having help with the kids around the house, so they seemed to get closer.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You're not going to break into somebody's 85 fucking Caprice. They don't leave money in there. There is constant mayhem from construction in the downtown area.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And especially after Brad ends up doing all this crazy shit and eating a woman, that brings them closer, which is interesting. And then their father kills himself, and that also...
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Brings them closer. So the Clark brothers found solace with each other basically here. So Haddon for once was a source of comfort for somebody like Jeff liked having him around. Haddon went to his father's funeral, came dressed in his Navy uniform. Even though he was obviously.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I was going to say you got kicked out for being insane.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He probably didn't have a suit. Think about it. It's probably his best suit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. I mean, it looks sharp anyway.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Good shit. Yeah, he's always pretty thin. So I think he could never, even when he's older. So it seemed like he's trying at this point. He would do well with Jeff's kids when they came. And Jeff said it was because Haddon's kind of a big kid himself.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Said he never really matured past a certain age. So maybe that's the deal here. He said it this way. Jeff described him, quote, here was this six foot two tall inch man who was their emotional age. He was a playmate, but a playmate who could drive a truck to the park and choose the biggest swing. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Haddon was a playmate who had money to buy them candy and who taught them how to kill, skin, butcher, and cook rabbits he raised in our backyard pen. He was an adult with the social skills of an 8 to 10-year-old child. So they started arguing over money, though. And also Jeff started arguing with him about how close he was with the kids. You're hanging out with the kids too much.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Um, there is even at some point here, Jeff decides that, um, he, well, not decides he saw and says later that he saw hadn't fondling himself in front of the children.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he was like, that's about enough of that. Now Jeff at the same time gets engaged to another woman. And so he kicks Haddon out in May of 1986. Like, listen, I got a chick coming in here and you're jerking it in front of the kids. You got to go.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Improvements and stuff of making it a nicer place. The drivers are chaotic. There are a few safe places to walk to restaurants because the drivers are unpredictable. We'll just jump up on the curb and take you out on the sidewalk. It's very hot and humid. Well, that's the East Coast. The J2 bus is okay, but the bus drivers are aggressive. Yeah, it's a bus driver. Jesus Christ. That's great.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Mostly the second part. But she doesn't want anyone jerking it around my kids either. So he moved out. He finds a cheaper room on the other side of town for $150 a month. But he's pissed. He's pissed he got kicked out. He's not happy. Now, you'd think that he would just go, yeah, he's got a new woman coming in. He's going to get married.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Not going to have my weirdo brother living here, too, during the honeymoon, but not him. And then a week after that, this is fucking wild, or a week before he got kicked out, he was mad at his six-year-old niece anyway, Eliza, who called him a retard. Oh, here we go. A six-year-old called him a retard, and he wanted to kill her after that, he said, for that remark.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He can't kill his father.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And I can't kill my dad, so guess what?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's fucking bad. So he is kicked out here, and he's having problems. This is May 31, 1986. He's standing outside Jeff's home, and it's hot outside, and he's standing out there being pissy, and I guess he said he's there to get his stuff. He had more stuff there. Now, everyone was out. Everyone in the house was gone, so there's that. Anyway, he's at the house.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's waiting to pick up a box of his shit, and as he starts going toward the house, a little girl walks up.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
A six-year-old little girl named Michelle Dorr, D-O-R-R. And he knew her. He knew her. He goes, oh, what's this kid's name? I know this kid. She is just a little cute little girl with freckles and, you know, she's Eliza's friend. His little niece and his dad or this little girl's dad lives on the street, lives two doors away. And, you know, that's he's there on the weekend.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So this girl's there on the weekends, hangs out with his niece on the weekends. So she's wearing a pink ruffled swimsuit. She's wet. She was playing in the little backyard pool, the little plastic pool. Her home life isn't great either. Her father would slap around the mother in front of her at times.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And so she has like a little bit of a stutter and has like some emotional problems from all this crazy stuff that's going on at home. Her mother said later on she had seen too much for a six-year-old. So back to this current day. She, the little girl, asks, where's Eliza? And, you know, Haddon said to himself, oh, I can get revenge on little Eliza here for calling me a name. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he says she's in the house upstairs in her room playing with dolls. You can go in if you want.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So Michelle walked up the house, went up the steps, and when she was out of sight, he went into the back of his truck and got his toolbox. Now, in there, his toolbox had his chef shit in it. In there, he had his knife roll. And so he takes his knife roll, and he selects a 12-inch long chef's knife and walks in the house, follows this little girl into Eliza's room, throws her to the floor.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She didn't even know it was going. It happened so fast, she didn't even scream. She didn't even know it was happening. Yeah. He threw her to the floor and slashed her with a backhand slash from left to right across her chest, and the second one went back the other way. She basically had a Z on her chest.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
A Z. Yeah. No, it was like a Z the way he did it because it came back.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
There are a few normal primary care doctors. just urgent care that acts as primary care on paper but without the trust or security of actual doctor-patient interactions. Rent is absurd, but most of the housing is dated and low quality. Okay, that's great. And they say that there's no good mechanics in the area, just some extremely expensive dealerships. Very specific complaints.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He looked like the Zorro sign, basically. He then, she is in shock, falls down. He covers up her mouth, and he stabs the 12-inch knife through her throat.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Obviously, the blood goes everywhere. It's an old house with some sloped floors, so blood is going fucking everywhere in the room. He didn't know what to do. He didn't know whether to mop up the blood and cover this up, or maybe in his mind he should try to have sex with her now that she's dead.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He tried that and he couldn't do it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So then he went downstairs, got some plastic trash bags. Did I say that? Yes, I did. I didn't say trash to flash bags. Ran out to his truck, got some rags and in his Navy duffel bag, went back upstairs, stuffed her into a plastic bag, then put this body into a duffel bag. Then he mopped up the floor. Like, you know, wax on, wax off on that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said he did it like on an aircraft carrier, the way you'd swab the deck there. Everything had blood on it and everything he could find with blood on it. He would stick it in the trash bags. He cleaned up, you know, to the naked eye pretty decent. He threw the bags and the body and the bag in the back of his truck.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And then he raced off to get to his chef's job about 20 minutes away because he couldn't be late. So. Oh, boy. People are obviously looking for Michelle. Clearly, she's a six-year-old girl. So this girl's father, Carl, Carl Dorr, he's looking. He looked into the backyard several times. He didn't see Michelle.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Wow. So he said he had last seen her a little after 2 o'clock when she came inside for a towel. So he said he wasn't worried at the time, though, because this is a safe street and it's, you know, nothing exciting ever happens here. It's fine. It's going to be easy. He said, my daughter's probably down the street playing. That's what he thought with Eliza, which is her friend.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So that's what he said. He goes, I looked out there. I didn't see her, but I figured she went down the street with with Eliza. So he just said, whatever, and started paying a few bills while watching the Indy 500. She's six. Dude, you don't just go. I don't know where my six year old is, but I'm sure she'll turn up like what the fuck. Finally, about five thirty. I said five.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's a three and a half hours. He just let this long race. It's he waited till the fucking checkered flag, dude.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He had to see fucking Al Unser Jr. take the whole thing. He had to sit. It's the only name I could think of from old NASCAR.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I know. I don't remember from fucking... Indy cars from back then. So he by that time he it's 530. He walks down to Jeff Clark's house to see if his daughter's with Eliza. He finds Jeff in the backyard barbecuing.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. His kids are there. Jeff's kids are there. His new girlfriend's there. Eliza's there. No Michelle, though. So Jeff says, I haven't seen Michelle all day. I got home and I've been barbecuing. I have no idea. And so they ask Eliza. Eliza says, I haven't seen her all day either. She didn't come down here to play with me. Okay. So Carl was like, what the fuck? So Carl walks around.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He walks down to the street, doesn't find anything, starts knocking on doors. Have you seen my daughter? Is she over here? Is she talking to you? She has no idea. He doesn't know what to do. So he starts panicking, drives around the neighborhood, and then heads over to the police station. Reports are missing. When he does that, he becomes their prime suspect. Oh, my God. Really? Absolutely.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
A strange father living off here. He's watching her. She disappears. It doesn't look good. Right. So they said that the cop said that when a child disappears, you look at the parents or the caregiver first, especially if in a divorce situation. It's even more. They said it's 90% chance that it's either the parents or the caregiver that did something to the child. That's just statistics.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And they're upset that everything can't be done exactly how they want it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The detective here, Mike Garvey, who was the first cop to speak with Carl Doerr, said it's page one in the handbook. He said the more he looked like the more Carl was there, the more he looked like a bad like the guy. They said he had threatened his wife. He said that he would abduct their daughter just three months before threatening the wife.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They've been battling in a custody battle for years. Carl was the last to see him alive. And they asked him to take a polygraph test. The polygraph examiner told them Carl might know more about Michelle's whereabouts than he was telling them. And the cop said, That's our fucking guy. That's our guy. Yeah. Yep. Carl said, quote, it was good cop, bad cop.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They were right in my face telling me I'd failed the polygraph exam and that it had been 24 hours and they knew she was dead. We were going to find her, they said. And when we do, we're coming to get you. Wow. So Carl scared shitless. Also, this girl's Michelle's mother told the cops she thinks Carl did it. Really? So, I mean, they're just all on board Carl.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They're not even looking at anybody else. She gave them an extra motive. She said her estranged husband was trying to get out of paying her $400 a month in child support as well. So that would help. So he told the cops he loved his daughter. They said, no, you don't. He took a second lie detector test with a different examiner and passed it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No, they can't do much here. Jesus Christ. I mean, I guess if you're not a doctor or a mechanic, it would be hard to take care of that stuff.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So then he underwent hypnosis even to try to prove his innocence. He took sodium pentothal.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
truth serum quote unquote yeah and none of this convinced the cops even though under hypnosis truth serum and lie detector he said he didn't do it um so yeah this is not great um they said nope it's it's him he snapped he did this and um yeah and apparently in a psychotic episode he told a psychiatrist that he had abducted and killed his daughter really He didn't.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said, quote, I started hallucinating. I couldn't take the pressure. My brain was soup. When they talk about false confessions, they happen so fucking often. And this is why. We sit in our living rooms and watch this shit in the best possible conditions. Yeah. With your drink of choice next to you eating a fucking snack on your 80 inch fucking LCD TV.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Why would you say that. But when you are in a police station for 24 hours and there you're taking fucking every day this is your day and your kids missing and you don't know what's going on and they're making you take drugs and hypnosis. You might just snap. That'll happen.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Exactly. And we know for a thousand percent fact, this man did not kill his daughter. He didn't do it. He absolutely didn't do it. Haddon has the details. He knows where the body is. He fucking did it. But this poor guy, he said that his mental state, he started to believe that people on television shows were talking about him. He snapped. Dude, his brain broke. His brain fucking broke.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now it is. You can't look at a fucking car and do anything to it now.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said that he looked behind the TV set, and when he didn't see anything, he thought the police were fucking up the TV reception.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's how fucking crazy he is. Yeah. The next day, Carl got into his car, drove to his father's grave, and began talking to his headstone, thinking the headstone was speaking back.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. Yeah. He said, quote, I believe that if I could find Michelle, I could bring her back to life. And if I was able to do that, then I must be Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He went from watching an IndyCar race to three days later believing that he may be Jesus and he's going to bring his dead daughter back from the grave. He also, because he said that he could do that, he began calling himself the White Messiah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I'll watch if you can do it. Yeah. So anyway, the cops took this all as a confession, basically. So they bring him in again and again and again and again. He's eventually committed to a psychiatric hospital for 72 hours of psychiatric observation because he's acting so crazy. Soon as he got out, they questioned him again.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
If you own a professional shop, yeah. My father can fix any car up until about 1998, and then it starts being computers.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now, he's just basically the thing he did, though, he was ashamed that he had neglected his daughter because he knew that he should have kept a better eye on her. So he fudged the timeline. Oh, that's why Haddon is never considered a suspect.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He told the cops it was around 2.10 p.m. that she left rather than a little before 2. That 15 minutes gives Haddon a perfect alibi because he was at work after that. So if he said the truth, then Haddon would have been a suspect because they talked to Haddon. They talked to all the neighbors, but he wasn't a suspect because – Because the timeline didn't fit. The timeline. Yeah, he finished his –
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Meanwhile, while all this is going on, Haddon finishes up his shift at the country club and begins driving with Michelle's body in his pickup truck. In the back, he's got the cap on it, so he can't see it at a stoplight or anything. He stopped off at the nearby Bethesda Naval Hospital to get the hand on his cut
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
cut on his hand fixed up that's part of his benefits package when he was discharged from the Navy he leaves the hospital about midnight drives toward Baltimore on Old Columbia Pike he saw some woods pulled over to the shoulder of the road and stopped So he said if the cops came by, he was ready to tell them that he just was trying to piss and he couldn't wait, so he had to pee right there.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He grabbed the duffel bag, flashlight, and a shovel from the back of his truck and went over the guardrail.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Just say, God, I'm doing stuff down here. Making pissy potatoes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Anybody need some pissy potatoes? So he goes into a ravine into the woods. At the base of a tree, he dug a grave four feet long, digging until he hit clay. Basically, he couldn't dig anymore. Took the little girl from the duffel bag and put her in there. But before he finished, he had one more thing to do. He ate a piece of her.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He doesn't have because he doesn't have a shop.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He had to taste it. I don't know what about this family causes two people to not only think I'll kill somebody, but I should probably see what they taste like also.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Who the fuck thinks of that? We've covered a lot of murderers. Most of them don't think I should probably get a taste.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That is fucked up. So he covered her with parts of an old mattress he found nearby and some leaves and then fucking went back to his place. That was it. Went back to his rented room. June 8th, 1986. Now, this is nine days later. A detective, Wayne Farrell, is cruising around the neighborhood. on Sudbury road where this all happened.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I think that computer's expensive. I think it is, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Um, he was trying to figure out anything here and he found Hayden. They found Haddon in the driveway of his brother's house fucking with his truck engine. The cop said, were you here yesterday? And he said, for about two or three minutes. So this guy, this detective later on told another detective about this encounter that there was a guy on the street for about three minutes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said that he had checked around and that Hayden or Haddon Clark seemed to be the neighborhood weirdo. Yeah. So this guy is this detective's boss said, go ahead and bring him in for a fucking chitchat here. So they do. They call in. They call Jeff and Jeff calls Haddon because they didn't know how to get a hold of Haddon. Haddon goes to the police precinct the next morning. He's supposed to.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I think probably, yeah. So people in this town, 66,294 people. So a little big, but still a suburb and definitely residential. That's why we put those reviews to tell you that. It's 52% female, so way more females than males. Median age is a few years higher than the national average. It's 43. It's a very suburban town.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He was on time, but they let him chill in there for a little bit and do all of that. He said he punched the client time clock at the country club where he worked at 246 that afternoon. And they did some figuring. They said, well, if Carl saw his daughter at 210, then Haddon Clark couldn't have found, abducted, and killed someone, then hit a body within 36 minutes. That's impossible.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And drove 20 minutes to work.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, they said they weren't about to, you know, they said they weren't allowed about they were going to question him, but they thought that, you know, his alibi is probably pretty solid. They were went at him a little bit soft. They asked him about the rabbits he had raised behind his brother's house and his life and all that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They started asking him about the kids in the neighborhood and hadn't complained that one of the little boys had kicked, quote, kicked him in the testicles while he was playing with a group. A, why are you playing with a group of kids? B, you have six-year-olds kicking you in the balls and calling you a retard.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
What a fucking day.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane top 10 small town murder crazy people that we have today. Holy wow. It's just a lot. And we're going to get to it. These drawings, I can't wait to show them to you. They are as creepy as it gets.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, so he said he didn't like that kid.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He also said he once playfully pinned a little girl to the ground. There is no playful way that an adult man pins a little girl to the ground.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, not your own and not laughing and having horseplay.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Still, even then, no good.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No good. So they said to him, is that what you did with Michelle? And they pulled out a little picture of her, and they said he began rocking back and forth in his chair, and he began crying and not looking at the photo, which is not good. That's not good.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's the worst thing you could do. Oh, yeah, I've seen that, kid. That's the right response. Rocking and crying is psychotic. And refusing to look at the picture. Again, bad. So they said again, is that what you did with Michelle? And he mumbled an answer. mumbled an answer, and then out of nowhere he says, I feel sick. Do you have a bathroom?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And he ran into the police station bathroom and began vomiting loudly into the toilet with the cop standing right behind him watching him like, holy shit. That's the craziest response to a fucking photo we've ever seen.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, wow. Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He either hates kids or really loves kids. So then he's throwing up and they're yelling at him. What did you do? The parents need to know. Tell me what happened. They need to bury their child. Was it an accident? Let's talk about it. And he was throwing up. So what they did is, as he continued to throw up, they slid a photo of Michelle under the stall door.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And said, what did you do? Yeah. Between heaves, he said, quote, I don't know. I may have done something. Sometimes I black out and do things I don't remember. Oh, boy, that's a terrible answer. All of these are the worst answers you could possibly give. But he then said again, he said, but I was there at 246. I checked into work at 246 and the detective checked his notes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He had called the country club. He checked in at two. He fucking punched in at 246. So they were like, he may be crazy, he may be a weirdo, but he's not a time traveler. So there's no fucking way he could do this. He's a punctual weirdo. Yeah, he's a punctual weirdo. But they said there's no way the time frame works. So they don't know why he's reacting like this, but who the fuck knows.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
family type of place 61 married which is well above the national average very low uh people that are single with children's only 6.5 this is okay you get married you buy an expensive house that you can't afford to get divorced in that's it and you work on your own car you stay together and you just let your cars die and Put them in the garage.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Carl Dorr gave him an alibi, essentially.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So this crime won't be solved now. They can't ever pin it on the father. They didn't do anything with Haddon, so it just goes cold as shit. So for the next few years, Haddon's mental state just goes to shit. It's not good. Oh, man, it's really bad.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He stopped renting his room for $150 a month, even though he could very easily afford it, and starts living in the back of his pickup truck under the cat.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Then he would often set up camp in the woods just off the interstate. Yeah, nobody would hire him as a chef, probably because he has like woodland animals in his beard and shit like that. Burrs stuck to his clothes are like, I don't think so.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's working odd jobs as a gardener and, you know, things like that. He would work at fast food places. He'd do whatever just to he doesn't need money, doesn't spend it on anything. So November of 1987, he has stopped for speeding in Montgomery County, Maryland. That's over 10 miles an hour over the limit. And then March of 88, he stopped again for speeding in Montgomery County. Same thing again.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So a doctor's diagnosis was this quote. His mental state is psychosis with questionable ideology. He states that birds and squirrels talk to him and keep him company. He's tearful at times with intermittent outbursts of anger and agitation. He's a potential danger to himself through poor judgment and self-defeating behavior. And he told the doctor, I think I have a split personality.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't like to hurt people, but I do things I'm not aware of.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Wild shit. So he ends up he's he's boarding in 1988. He is staying at the house of an older couple. Yeah. But they asked him to leave because their daughter had to move into the house and wanted to use that room. When he left, he stole tools, records and some rare books. And also he wrapped fish heads in plastic and hid them around the house.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He shrimped them, as the El Magical joke goes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He shrimped them. Shrimped them up good. That is a horrible thing. This place I worked, they pulled a prank on this one kid, man. I felt so bad for him. It was Phoenix in the summer, and he didn't have air conditioning. He was driving a Saturn with no air conditioning. Oh, no. And they put a fucking fish under his front seat when he got to work in the morning.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And he worked 9, 10 hours of 115-degree day and then opened the door. And you can imagine how overwhelming that was. He couldn't find it for a while. Oh. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then finally found it. He left it in there. He couldn't find it. So he drove home and then finally found it. And then the car never would. You could never get that out of the car. It was there forever. It was horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He did, too, I think.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Race in this town, 74.8% white, 3.6% black, 11% Asian, 7.2% Hispanic, so some mix-up in there. Religion, 40% of the people here are religious, so it's lower than our normal here. We have Catholic is the most, but it's not by that big of a margin, though. Really? It's not. We'd say that it's the Baptists of the North, but we're really not in the North, and it's just...
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
At least that was a work truck where they just give you another one. This poor bastard. He drove a Saturn with no air conditioning, which is not a choice. That is the best he could get, and now he has a Saturn with no air conditioning that reeks of fish.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, you just angered the hive at that point. It's made it worse.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Late one night, he hanged their cat and left it on the doorstep.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's not all either. We'll get back into more.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He later told the detective, I knew that would get to him. I knew that would hurt him. You know, killing their pets and ruining their house. So September 88, his mother confronts him for stealing items from her home in Rhode Island. He visited his mom and during his stay, he started stealing shit. She caught him and screamed at him. She said, what are you doing stealing from me?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He knocked her down and started to kick her. Then he got in his truck and tried to run her over. She dove out of the way just in time to not get run over by his truck. So she presses charges of assault and battery, and he gets one year of probation. She writes him a letter saying that he is dead to her and that she does not love him anymore, which is just what he needs.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She said she was going to pretend he was dead until he got some help from a veterans hospital. She said, always remember that your mother and father loved you. And she wrote the word loved in past tense several times. Oh, boy. December 25th, Christmas Day, 1988. He's pulled over for speeding in Montgomery County and they find an unregistered loaded 38 caliber handgun in his possession.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He got a suspended sentence and probation for that. Back to the the people's house that he put the fish heads on here. His landlord said there he seemed crazy and evil and he booby trapped the house. Oh, this is a complete. Yeah, this is the same one.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
In addition to the fish head and the stealing and the fucking cat, he also balanced a 10-gallon can of oil on top of the door so that it would spill when it was pushed open. You know, like a cartoon? Yeah. And he sprayed black dye all over the living room carpet and hid the fish heads inside the family's piano, the chimney, the stove, all places you wouldn't want. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, well, that is the only one that fucking probably will get the smell of the oil.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, if you put a little pepper on it, a little garlic, that could smell okay. The charging document read, the smell of decaying fish permeated the house and was extremely difficult to eradicate. His former landlord said, his lifestyle is getting even, and then said, we feel scared after that. He told us about getting even with other people, so they were still scared. Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He pleaded guilty as part of a deal which dropped the unlicensed loaded handgun offense. No jail time is served. Wow. And he has a suspended sentence and is assigned to a probation officer and ordered to get psychiatric treatment. There we go. That's the first time. That's good. Yeah. So he does, but he left it immediately after being admitted. Okay. So he's got problems.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
February 1989, he gets in trouble for dressing up as a woman and going into local churches and stealing purses and wallets out of coats during like ladies church meetings. He goes and dressed as a woman and steals from them. Fifteen counts of theft he is charged with. Yeah, he did it all over, all different churches. Women would be inside doing choir practice.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He would go to the cloakroom and steal all their shit because they would figure no one's going to steal their purse from church. On the day he was arrested, he pulled over to the shoulder of the road and he was screwing around with his car. A cop offered assistance. This is a crazy thing. He didn't get pulled over. He was dicking with his car.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
A cop pulled up and said, hey, can I help you with your car? And he panicked, began fumbling around the front seat, trying to hide coats and purses. And he just yelled at the cop, no, no, you can't go in my truck. I was like, I didn't want to until now. That's where all my stuff's at. Now I really want to. I didn't before.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Baptists of the mid-Atlantic region here. That's about it here. The unemployment rate here is about average. Median household income here is very high. Rest of the country, $69,000. Here, $178,370.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And he went, nice beard, ma'am. Terrific. What I'm saying is because he's dressed in full men's regalia working on his car. So they search further. They find women's wigs, a hypodermic syringe, women's dresses, and a thick roll of cash. Got a bunch of cash, which is wild. So 17 counts of criminal indictment, 15 for theft and possession of controlled paraphernalia for the syringes, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So anyway, he's going to plead guilty, like we said, and he's sentenced to 18 months, but the judge suspends all but 45 days. What? Now, he serves 45 days in jail before he posts his bond and later boasted that he did it on purpose because it's cold in February and it was warmer in jail than in his truck. Didn't want to be outside anyway. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said it was more comfortable in the county detention center than in the freezing cold. He said he liked the three meals a day and a roof over his head. And they had movies every Thursday. So this wasn't too bad in there. It was great. It was like summer camp to him. He said he was reluctant to leave when spring arrived.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You like jail. County is better. You're like, this is great. I don't even want to listen. County? It's like a spa to him, though. He looks at it like a spa.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Holy shit. Now, they said they gave him three years probation because he had serious mental problems. The Maryland judge said the defendant has serious mental problems and is now addressing them. And his public defender, Donald Salzman, was so sympathetic he wrote a letter for Haddon Clark and instructed him to hand it to any police officer the next time he was arrested.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The note read to any police officer. I want the help of my lawyer, Donald P. Salzman, and I want my lawyer to be present before I answer any questions about my case or any other matters. I do not wish to speak to anyone concerning my criminal charges pending against me or anyone else or any criminal investigation, regardless of whether I am charged.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I do not want to be in any lineup or give any handwriting samples or give any blood, hair, urine or any other samples unless my lawyer is present and then gives the lawyer's address phone number. So this is just give them this rather than have you say dumb shit and cry when they show you an eight year old's picture.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They're killing it. That's almost three times the national average of everything. But the cost of living, you need to make that. Outrageous. 100 is average here. It's 138.5. That's not that bad.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Oh, you're insane. I see. But by 1990, living in the woods is cheap and he saves money. He has $40,000 saved over $40,000 by 1990. Wow. Just saved up. So, yeah, they said that he he defied the stereotypes of homeless people. They said he was super industrious and he was always doing shit like he wasn't wasn't lazy or any bullshit. They said he tries hard to feed himself.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's a little standoffish sometimes, but he wants social acceptance. They said that he plays chess. He does things like that. He joins the First Baptist Church of Bethesda. He's not doing okay. He's doing all right. The reverend said he came for the social aspect. He's a little loud sometimes and would make remarks that were immature. He was aware of that, and he didn't have social skills.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They said he was a man to whom friends were invaluable. He wanted friends really bad, but nobody liked him. No, except for the kids. And then they started calling him names and kicking him in the balls. So they said he would tell you he had days when he got depressed. One person from the group said, I tried to avoid talking to him. He talked nonsense. I stayed away from him.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
1992, Penny Hoftelling. Okay. H-O-U-G-H-T-E-L-I-N-G. She is a psychotherapist and a lady who lives in Bethesda. And her daughter, Laura, she has a daughter named Laura who in 1992 was at Harvard.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. So doing really well here. Totally well. So Penny, the mom, needs a gardener. Now, this is about 10 miles from where he had murdered and eaten Michelle Dorr in 1986. Penny likes to help people who need help, basically. She's a nice lady and she's a psychiatrist. And so, you know, add all that together.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She thought she was doing a good deed when she hired a homeless man from a local church organization in 1992. And that is Penny. Our guy, yeah. Our guy here. So she hires him as a gardener, and he immediately becomes very attached to Penny. Okay. Like she's his mother, like in a motherly way, because he doesn't have a mother now, and he has the mentality of an eight-year-old and has no mother.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He needs a mother, yeah. He needs a mother. Now, he's a good worker. Mm-hmm. He does all his job and shit like that, and he's real good. He tended to her zinnias and pruned her perennials so well that she began to invite him into the house and let him have run of the kitchen. He was allowed to make himself coffee and use the bathroom without asking if he could come in.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, but the home cost is the problem. That's the big one. That's what drives it all the way up. The home cost, median home cost here, $1,072,100. So you better be making $200,000 a year to buy any house. It's your average house.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
After a while, Penny starts noticing little things are missing. Pearls. Pearl necklace is missing. Her underwear is missing. Clothing starts to become missing. So she was not a very observant person, Penny, and had a lot of stuff and didn't really care that much. But a strand of pearls disappeared, and she noticed that, but she didn't confront him about it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Penny once complained to Haddon about some missing gardening tools, and he blew up and yelled at her. He was like, how dare you, blah, blah, blah, blah. So she was like, shit, my bad, sorry. Rather than firing him, she backed off. So Laura, after she graduates from Harvard in June of 92, she comes back home and he doesn't like it because he's the child.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And now her daughter's home and she's paying all his attention to Penny and he's jealous. Yeah, he's jealous. She he said she appeared to like her more than him, you know, because it's her daughter and you're a homeless guy. He she hired to trim the fucking zinnias. What are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So within a couple of days of her returning, he starts plotting to get back at this Laura for how dare she come home. October 13th, 1992, Penny tells Haddon that she's going away to a conference for a week. She said, I'll be gone from the 17th of October to the 25th. So just so you know, you don't have to come that week.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
October 14th, the next day after she told him that, 1992, he purchases two rolls of duct tape, braided rope, and a nylon cord. Pays with a check.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You should go, no, you have to get like, you need like drywall or something to go with this. You need some other building materials.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Fuck, what are you going to get, a little shovel too? Is that what you want? No. So he wrote a check for this, and in the memo part of the check, he wrote Laura on it. What? Wow.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Laura. Who's Laura?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That is crazy, man. So Saturday, October 17th, 1992, Laura went to a horse meat. I don't know what that is. I think you have to be a rich person to know what a horse meat is. Horse meat? M-E-E-T. She's not going to eat horse meat.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She's going to meet with horses, apparently, in Middleburg, Virginia. I've heard of a car meet.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Line them all up, and you just go up and lift the tail, look at their buttholes, and go, yeah, looks like a good horse there.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So there was a gala dinner party following the event afterwards. The next day is a Sunday, October 18th. Laura slept in. She watched some football games with her older brother Warren and his roommate. She had taken a temporary job in Washington until she decided whether to go on to law school or become a teacher. Don't go to Harvard and then become a teacher.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Not that that's bad, but I just mean for money-wise.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's exactly right. So if you've saved up your money, you're all ready to go. We have for you the Bethesda, Maryland Real Estate Report. The average two-bedroom rental here is $2,340, which is almost double the national average. Here's a four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,228-square-foot house. It's nice. It's a cute little place. It's built, and not even little. It's a decent place, but...
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's what I mean. Go to Harvard. You didn't need to go to Harvard to get a job as a teacher is what we're saying.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And not owe $200,000 in fucking student loans. So I guess there was a big project at the firm due to start the next morning. So she went to bed early just after 10 o'clock that night on Sunday the 18th. But she's in bed about two hours when just about midnight hadn't parked his truck on the street next to this, to their house, to Penny and Laura's house.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He went to Penny's gardening shed and grabbed the spare house key that was kept inside. Oh, he knew about that. Um, By the way, he's wearing full regalia. He's wearing clothes that he stole from Penny.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He has a wig on.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He has her underwear. He's carrying a black purse. He's wearing her lingerie.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Purse. Lingerie, blouse, slacks, underwear, purse, wig. Full costume here. So he's going as Penny, basically.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He also wore a woman's trench coat, and underneath the trench coat, he concealed a .22 caliber rifle.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Okay. She woke up and he yelled at her, why are you in my bed? So you're awoken. You awaken to a strange man dressed as your mother. Yeah. Pointing a gun at you and saying, why are you in my bed? You'd have to think that was a dream at first, right? You'd close your eyes, reopen them like three times and be like, this isn't real, right? Laura just sat there. What the fuck? God damn it. Spicy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Spicy. Don't eat Indian food. Not past seven. God damn it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Tell me I'm you. Yeah. So she said, you're Laura. Please don't hurt me. I'll call you anything you want. I'll call you fucking anything. I'll call you a fucking President Eisenhower if you want. I don't give a shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Doesn't matter to me.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Kermit the Frog. Great. Please don't kill me. He asked her. He got a Bible out and asked her to swear on the Bible that he was Laura. So she said, sure, okay. Then he holds the gun on her and tells her to get up, get undressed, and get in the bath.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No. So he does. She does that as instructed, a gunpoint. She takes a bath. He then leads her back into the bedroom and made her lie down on her stomach. Okay. His plan was to take her to a campsite in the woods, and he told her he was going to, quote, introduce you to Haddon.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He bound her wrists with duct tape and her ankles, then turned her over and started covering her mouth with duct tape. But he just got so into it, he just kept wrapping it around her head, around her eyes and her nose and just her whole head. She couldn't breathe and suffocated.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he said, fuck. She's laying there still. He started taking the tape off her face with a pair of scissors. And his hand, he said, slipped. And he stabbed her in the neck. And then blood started coming out. So he, rather than go, what do I do? He started looking down at her neck and became fascinated with her earrings and took them. Like those earrings.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he had a hard time getting the second one off. So he just... Got a pair of scissors and snipped off her earlobe with the earring on it. He then sat by her bed and just stared at her nude dead body for an hour. Oh, boy. At times, he said he touched her breasts, but said that he neither raped her or practiced cannibalism on her remains. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So at 3 in the morning, he wrapped her body in a queen-size sheet, threw her over his shoulder, and put her in a narrow bed underneath the cap of the rear of his truck. Okay, that's his bed that he sleeps on. He then went back inside, gathered up the bloody evidence, the sheet, the mattress pad, the pillowcase, carried them outside...
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
along with Laura's high school ring, a crystal uniform, and some other, our unicorn, some knickknacks from her room, and some other personal shit he put in his pocket. Then he laid down and slept in her bed inside.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Left the house at eight in the morning. He was wearing a woman's wearing the whole wig and carrying the purse. A housekeeper standing with a child waiting for a school bus would later tell the police she thought that was Laura headed out to her job because Laura is about six feet tall. She's a real tall girl.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So they just thought it was Laura going to work. Instead, he got in his truck, drove two blocks to the parking lot of a nearby church, backed his truck into a corner of the lot, and went to sleep again next to her dead body in the back of the truck. Sleepy fella. He's very sleepy. He's all tuckered out. That's the thing. He's got to go and do a lot.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
good-sized house it's it's a it's classified as a bungalow so it's that style so it looks smaller than it is uh it was built in 1928 and very nicely updated it's pretty damn cool uh wow it is nine hundred fifty thousand dollars though which is a bit pricey no land a little tiny lot nothing just this little house it's gotta have a finished basement right that's gotta be where the
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't think that's how he meant to kill her. I think he meant to kill her in a different way and accidentally duct taped her too much and went, oh, shit, I broke it. He's like a kid who was trying to keep a fucking fly in a jar and then ripped a wing off and was like, oh, no, now what? So the next morning while he slept, Laura's employer is calling the house, getting the answering machine.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She's never not. She's never did a no call, no show. So. They think it's odd. So they send someone to the house to look around. That's how dependable she is. They send someone out there. This was a friend of hers. She rang the doorbell, got no answer. She called Laura's brother and started calling her friends. And so everyone said, oh, we'll look around for her.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Her brother Warren decided to walk the route that Laura takes to the bus stop that she would use to go to work. He walked down the street. And as he walked down the street, he saw Haddon Clark driving toward them in his pickup truck. He was planning on coming back to the house to steal more, but now everybody's there.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So Warren waved him down because he knew he was the gardener and was like, hey, do you know anything? Have you seen my sister around anywhere? And Haddon said, you know, he pulled over and the guy said, hey, have you seen my sister? And as he's asking, he just guns it and takes off.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They're always wrong. He could have just said no and then drove away. Nope, I don't know. I haven't been around. That would have been easy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Fuck. So he decided, I better bury her because they're looking for her. Yeah. So he stumbled with her, gets off to a spot on the I-270 just across the highway from his campsite. And he drops her about 20 feet from the road, digs a hole, digs a shallow grave, puts her in it, covers the body with dirt and leaves.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
In the months to come, though, animals are going to find this and they dig her up and they get remains quite a bit. Yeah. And also later on, we'll find her wrists and lower extremities would rise above the ground from heavy rains washing away. Yeah. So he's nervous.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he drives north toward New England here. In Rhode Island, he stops and stuffs the bloody sheets, mattress pad, and the items he stole from Laura in a self-storage locker that he rented yearly. He keeps the pillowcase for himself, though. It's a trophy. It's a trophy because it's got blood on it. So he drove back to Washington thinking he did a pretty good job.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The cops in Maryland want to talk to him, though, because Warren and Penny both mentioned his name when his description was phoned into headquarters. They went, oh, wasn't this the guy who we thought killed that little girl? Yeah. Same area, 10 miles away. So they said that to Penny, and Penny said Hadden wouldn't hurt anyone. He's just a gardener. It's not him. He didn't hurt anybody.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She's a psychotherapist, this woman. Yeah, right, right. She should know better. Yeah. No, she wants the best of people. So the cops here, they go, I don't think so. So they remembered him vomiting in the bathroom and having, you know, only getting off because of that alibi. And the one guy said, Haddon Clark, absolutely. Let's go. Let's get him. That son of a bitch got away once.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
This is the cop on the phone. Let's go fucking get him. He said that, you know, we'll wait till tomorrow, basically.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Not this time, motherfucker. So Haddon drove down to the same church parking lot near Penny and Laura's house. He went into his truck, found the bloody pillowcase, ran into some woods that bordered the church, threw the pillowcase near the base of a tree, went back to his truck, and he fell asleep.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't maybe possibly. Yeah, I don't remember if I it was hard to tell if they don't show if it's a finished basement. Sometimes it's hard to tell if it's in the rest of the house or where it is. Here is a six bedroom, six bath tea bowl for each and every beehall here. Fifty eight hundred ninety square feet.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So, by the way, at the scene of the crime at the house, they found a butcher knife on the kitchen counter. Her bed looked like it was scrubbed clean. It did show traces of a large amount of blood covering almost the entire mattress, though, on there. So they talked to him. A detective, Ed Tarney, sits him down and said, have you seen Laura? He said, quote, I'm so scared and started crying.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Not the right response.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, maybe that'll work. So they said, hey, there's nothing to be afraid of. And then Haddon got down on one knee and said, oh, God, I just want to die.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
When they asked, just throw a question out, he goes, what did you do with her? What'd you do with her? He pulled the cap down over his face and refused to talk anymore. He said, going inside now. I can't see you.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Except with no eye holes.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
An eight-year-old would do that.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
An eight-year-old would go, I'm going to hide. Now you can't see me. So the detective said, we didn't know what we had at that point. We knew we had a nut. But was this head case smart enough to hide her body and clean up the crime scene? We just didn't know if he was that sophisticated. So they let him go.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Because they have no evidence. They just have he's acting weird. So that's interesting. Yeah. At one point they get him back. He's escorted by the head of a local homeless group named Sue Snyder. And the cops were gentle because they had nothing to arrest him on. And he's got somebody with him. He had an alibi for everything except for the time Laura was killed.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said, well, it was the middle of the night, you're saying, so I was sleeping. He left the station and began crying and the Sue Snyder lady asked him why he was crying and he said, I feel so bad for Penny and Warren. So, when Laura never turned up ever, the local cops did a complete search of the area.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
A dog from the canine unit led them into the woods near Penny's house that bordered the church. There they turned up one of Penny's bras, a woman's blouse, a high-heeled shoe, and the bloody pillowcase. Taken to a lab, they determined it's the same blood type as Laura. Then they noticed there is a single fingerprint on the blood.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. So they haul in Haddon again while they're testing this. And he says, as he's being caught, it was being hauled in. I'm just a homeless man. I don't have any friends. I'll be jobless after this, too. And they said, we found a pillowcase in the woods. It had a fingerprint on it. The print is yours. They don't know whose it is yet. They haven't tested. It's being tested.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
But they were hoping that maybe he would do something. He began whimpering and crying. They said, what did you do with her? And he said, I don't remember. Bad answer. Bad answer. But you know what they had to do? They still let him go.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
0.35 acres. This house looks like it's 150 years old, but it was built in 2003. Oh, wow. It looks like a big old Victorian house. It's got that round turret-looking thing there and all that kind of shit. It's very cool, but you are like, hey, what the fuck? This is old, but it's not? I don't understand it. It's $3,190,000. Wow. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They don't have anything. So they had nothing to hold him on. Then they used search warrants. They examined his bank accounts, found a copy of the check that said Laura on it. They also located his campsite and searched it but didn't find Laura. The next Sunday, he attended church. In the collection plate, he left a note that said, Haddon I. Clark, homeless.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Is life really worth living anymore or is it time to commit suicide? That's in the collection plate. Uh-huh. He also sends the family, Penny and the rest of the family, a sympathy card that reads, just please give me a call when you're ready to do some gardening again. Also, I can bring you bagels on Friday, too. He's offering to pick up fucking bagels. He's like, I'll make a bagel run.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
wow that is fucking wild man um so the police obviously match up the fingerprints and he's arrested on october 22nd 1992 for murder um they saw him they peeked through the windows of the truck cap he's inside when they arrested him he's asleep hugging a teddy bear he's fucking eight man He's an eight year old pervert.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So they arrested him. They told him you're under the arrest for for murder of Laura. And he said, OK, that's all he said. Didn't fight, didn't do anything. They took him in a room and they watched him through a one way mirror. He looked around. They let him keep his teddy bear in there.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
At one point, he's in there alone with the teddy bear. It's sitting on the table. He leaned over and says to the teddy bear, quote, not getting out of this one, and then sits back up. To the teddy bear, he said that. And it said in a Boston accent, let me handle this, pal. It's all right. No, I'm just kidding. Got any weed? Got any weed or whatever over here? Come on.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So, yeah, that is fucking crazy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He didn't confess, but during questioning, they said he lapsed into voices, an infant, a woman, and a man who said to look for, quote, them in New Jersey. So they looked through one of his boyhood neighborhoods in Warren, New Jersey, but found nothing. Yeah. So this is obviously a huge deal in this area. People freak out. It's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
One of the spokesmen for the Montgomery County Township Police Department said two brothers. Isn't that incredible? No shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They said it's very odd to have brothers involved in capital murders on two coasts of the country. That doesn't happen too often.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Separate. They do it together. Yeah. Yeah. Then another an officer with the Montgomery County Police Department said he has a glare. He looks at you with that just sends chills down your spine. Everybody compared him to Hannibal Lecter. That's what they all compared him because they knew he ate somebody to later on. Wow. So, yeah, he's going to go to jail here.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
By the way, his brother at the time is in Tracy, California, in prison, where he's a model prisoner dabbling in Judaism at the time.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And is eligible for parole in 2002, which, spoiler alert, he doesn't get. Okay. You're not getting out. He cooked a woman's tit. You're not getting out on first parole. Well, I thought about the error of my ways. Yeah. And I thought, you know, barbecue sauce would be a better way to go about that next time.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's like I realized pork is a better thing, a more normal thing to cook on the grill. So neighbors said they remember him as being a little bit weird. One neighbor said, I just remember him snapping and getting angry. Then you just kind of walked away and he would calm down. That's what everybody would say here.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Another guy who grew up with him said that he remembered him being quiet and a little slow. But they remembered at one point Mrs. Clark, Flavia, trying to stop a snowplow from clearing the street so her four children could sled. That's what mom is like.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
What is that? No one can drive on the street because I want my kids to sled on it. It's crazy selfish.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So they bring bloodhounds and find no trace of Laura here. The two dogs searched a square mile of woods here in Warren to try to find the scent of Laura here. The two dogs, Sherlock and Buford, which are very good bloodhound names. Sherlock, because you're sniffing him. And a bloodhound just looks like a Buford.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. Well, it's like Best in Show when he's talking about... Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And then the next house is even crazier. Six bedroom, 11 bath. A tea bowl for all your b-holes and your brothers and sisters. You can invite your parents over to take a dump. Everybody.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't know. No, they're from Pine Nut, whatever. Pine Nut. Will you stop naming nuts? I love that. What if you just put like a little pipe and maybe a hat on there? Is that allowed? I don't know if props are allowed. So they did all this shit and they're looking for – the dogs were given pieces of clothing belonging to both the victim and the assailant and couldn't find it.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They said passage of time and rainy weather made it difficult there. So they keep bringing these dogs. They're not finding anything. Wow. January 1993, a letter arrives to police. It's a hand-drawn map transmitted by fax machine arriving at the police station in Wellfleet, Massachusetts. It depicted a cemetery in Wellfleet.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It had been found in a pickup truck in Maryland that belonged to Haddon Clark. This is one of the things they found in his truck. The detective in Maryland sent it up there. He had spent summers in this area at his grandparents' house.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
All sorts of shit. So on the map here in the area where his father and grandparents were buried in the cemetery, he drew an X. The Maryland detective asked the Wellfleet police if they could see whether anything seemed out of the ordinary in the vicinity of the X. Laura's body was not found there, though.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They said they drove down the road in the cemetery, came to the grounds by some oak trees where the Clarks have their graves. They said it was cold, getting dark, right in front of the grave marked Haddon Clark Sr. It was clear the earth had been disturbed.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So they called the state police and they said there might be a body buried in the cemetery to which they said, listen, let me tell you something, buddy. There's a lot. There's a few. The next day they arrived with a dog that had been trained to find cadavers. They said we're in the cemetery and the officer starts rubbing the dog. She says, you want to go to work?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Find it. Find it. Find a fresher one. One that's not in a box.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Well, they're also sniffing at her belongings also, I think. She said, go to work and find it. The dog runs back and forth. Nobody points him in any direction and anything like that. But in about 30 seconds, he's by the disturbed piece of ground and digging furiously.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
We'll get to all that and more. First, though, head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. What's there, you may ask? First, merch. Tons of merchandise, number one. All the sayings you could want. Everything from bath mats to coffee cups. We got it. But also, tickets to live shows. Get them right now. First of all, 4-19. April the 19th, we'll be doing our 4-20 virtual live show.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So they call the police from Maryland. They arrive, and they said, we get shovels and dig up the spot, and me and the Massachusetts State Police and the detectives from Maryland, and nothing's there. They said they dig a little more. Still nothing. They said it's winter. It's cold. It's damp. We're standing around a hole in the ground looking at each other, shaking our heads.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said, I know now what happened. I know most of what happened anyway, but for eight years I didn't know anything. Okay, we'll get to this now. In jail, this is before his trial is about to start, an inmate at the detention center where he's being held told police Clark had been sitting at a picnic table in the yard one day while people were playing volleyball. The ball rolled over toward him.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They asked him to throw it back, but he didn't. He was sitting with his head in his hands and crying and saying, I shouldn't have killed her. I shouldn't have killed her.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So the day before the trial is set to start, he decides to plead guilty instead. So he pleads guilty to second degree murder of Laura. And the sentencing is you, son, may fuck off 30 years in prison.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
We've got a lot of plumbing. We have extra pipes. Let's just.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
For that. OK, 30 years. Now, within days of his sentencing, his lawyers go to the prosecutors and said he's ready to tell you where the body is. Yeah. He buried the body in Rockville next to Bethesda in woods near a highway exit ramp. That's with his dad's grave. No, it wasn't there. What's with that? He did something else there. Who knows what he did there?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I mean, I know the mob would bury bodies under other bodies, but not on top of. That's crazy. So when he's in prison now, he's boasting of his many murders. He's telling inmates details about how he killed Michelle, Dore, Laura, and others. Now, obviously, they're not real big fans of child killers in prison. No.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
It's 11,522 square feet. On 1.93 acres. Oh, it's amazing. It's on the river. It has these beautiful views. It looks like a resort destination romantic comedy movie wedding venue. That's what it looks like. It's ridiculous. Is it $11 million? It looks like a resort. $23,500,000. 23 million. 23 million.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
here um and also if you inform on a guy you can get early parole so you mix all that together um there's a guy named lou luciano hey louis he's a former baltimore-based fbi agent and he's done a lot of murder for hire cases armed car robberies kidnappings homicides but he said this case was different when he's in prison hadn't hung meat from his cell ceiling and
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
to let it rot drew coloring book like caricatures of his victims and believed his white bearded his white bearded cellmate was Jesus actual Jesus and we'll talk about that
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And he's so crazy no one does anything. This Luciano guy said, you're dealing with multiple personalities. A guy eating moldy pork patties. He's a killer. He's a soulless individual. Behind those eyes there is nothing. And he was the guy holding the cards because he had a pretty good idea where the bodies were.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
This guy conducted hours-long interrogations with Haddon, who attributed his murders not to himself, but to a persona he has named Kristen E. Bluefin.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's my alter ego who I kill people. That's who kills people. Not me, it's Kristen.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
From my mother who called him Kristen. Isn't that fucked up?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I'm surprised his middle name isn't retard. Yeah. Kristen retard bluefin. So he said, this Luciano said, there'll be times when we spent seven, eight, nine hours with him and he's talking about his alter egos. He's showing us his drawings. He's talking about people he killed. He's giving information up. Some of it we could corroborate and knew about. Some of it we knew.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Some of it he was playing us. Yeah. So he said that he signed his name Kristen and claimed that Kristen was a mean bitch, ate raw flesh, and loved hiding stuff. That mean bitch, that Kristen. As Haddon started to demonstrate that his more forceful personality and more prolific personality was this woman, he began to become her more in the moment. He would shift back and forth.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I think Kristen was probably his wall or his shield.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah, the drawings. Okay, I'll show you all of them at the end, or most of them, but I'm going to show you one here that's pretty creepy. He said his drawings are mostly women and landscapes, maps. They almost look like postcards. Wish you were here so I could kill you. He said, I'm featured in some of it, but it's always wide-eyed girls with blue eyes. And it is. Here is one of them. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't like that at all. No. Are they the creepiest? They're so innocent and so fucking creepy because they're so innocent.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They're really similar to the BTK drawings.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The way he does his lines look a lot like BTK, though. That's how BTK would draw the slick ad people and do all that shit.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No, they have like a fucking bald part, like a... Like a 40s man part that's been parted on the side too long.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So, wow. During one of the interviews, Luciano asked him for a picture of Kristen and he handed over a drawing of a blonde woman with big blue eyes. Now, it resembled FBI Special Agent Desiree Smith, the guy said. When they brought it to her, they brought her in to help, hadn't gave her the picture and smiled and said, you're Kristen. You're Kristen.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They were like, whoa. And after that, he really opened up. Because he's like, oh. You're here. You're here. Okay. September 23rd, 1998, they talk to him about Michelle Dorr. Okay. They bring him into an interrogation room. They let him sit by himself. He starts making a series of gestures and sometimes makes, and he also, that he says are American Sign Language, but they're not. He makes like,
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yeah. He made up his own sign language. And he sang a song in there.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Lyrics are as such. Uh-huh. How loving and patient he must be. He's still working on me. There really ought to be a sign upon my heart. Don't judge her yet. There's an unfinished part. But I'll be perfect just according to his plan, fashioned by the master's loving hand.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's singing creepy Jesus songs in there, man.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The detectives come in the room and hang a poster-sized photograph of Michelle on the wall. Oh, boy. This is the one that's appeared in all the newspaper articles and everything. They said, do you know who she is? And he said, yep. Yep. And now in one of his storage lockers, the police had found a collection of tools that his landlord said that they stole from him.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
A sultan lives there. Somebody who goes to D.C. sometimes but lives in the United Arab Emirates or something. Ridiculous. And this isn't in Beverly Hills or in Greenwich or something like that. This is Bethesda, Maryland, which we thought we heard of, but we weren't sure.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Now, they showed him the pictures of the tools and asked if he could identify them. And he said, that's mine. I got that from my grandfather's workshop. That's mine. I got it when I was in high school. There was an old vice that came out of my grandfather's shop up in Wellfleet. He used these tools to tune pianos. They showed him a collection of Chinese coins. There we go.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
And he said, money, my coin collection. Yeah. And they said, you speak Chinese? And he said, yup.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They said, you speak Chinese? And he said, yeah. And he said, yup. Then they said, you speak Chinese? And he goes, yup, I speak German. No, no, no.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
They said, you speak Chinese? And then he took a big pause and he said, I don't speak Chinese. But I listen to Chinese music. I listen to a lot of different types of music. I listen to Chinese music. I listen to Mexican music, too. Caribbean. I like Caribbean music, too.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
What the fuck are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
An hour goes by. They place a document several pages long. This is horrible. In front of him with a warrant charging him with the murder. The other detectives asked if he wanted some coffee. He said he did. The guy went to get it. They knew Clark would talk to himself, so they wanted to see what he would say.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He turned the pages of the warrant, read them all, stopped and went, oh, well, I guess I'm fucked. He took the picture of Michelle from the wall and put it face down on the table, then sat with his elbows on his knees and clasped his hands and said, oh, well, going to court.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
As he slowly read through the pages, he rubbed his chin and he said, oh, well, I'm the Rockville rocket, the Rockville rocket. That's me. Then he said, this could be a bunch of bullshit to try to break me. He spread his elbows on the table, put his head down on the warrant with such force that they opened the door and asked him if he was all right. Whack. Like, bang.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Then he calmly folded the warrant up, put it in his pocket, and sat there and waited for his coffee. Now, the behavioral science unit here from the FBI, that's who these people are with, obviously. Detective Tarney, who'd pursued him for years, said that the Maryland police took him to the FBI, the mine hunter people, to see what the fuck's up. This is what the cops said.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Quote, they took one look at him and told us, you've got your hands full, never seen anyone like him before. They went to, think about that. They went to fucking Holden, and he went, beats the shit out of me. That's a crazy one. Fuck off. I don't know. That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
We can't illuminate this one. Nope. So 1999, he's in court again. He's tried for stealing from that family that he stole tools from and shit, and he's found guilty and receives another, you, sir, may fuck off, 10 years in prison consecutive. Then they try him for the Michelle Dorr murder, and he doesn't plead to this either.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
At the trial, his defense attorneys tried to point the finger at this girl's father, who's fucking guilty enough as it is. But several fellow inmates testified against him, like multiple inmates were like, oh, yeah, he tells us all about this shit. So during the trial, he would rock back and forth in his chair and sometimes break into songs about Jesus. Okay. He's found guilty, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Working on me. It's catchy. And he receives Yusa. May fuck off again. 30 more years consecutive to the other one.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Okay. So it's 60. That's 60, but really 30. It's consecutive, though, right? Yeah, but they're eligible for parole at 15, I think. January 2000. I've got to hurry up here. We're running late. January 2000, he confesses to Jesus. Not at church or to a deity of any kind. He has a cellmate with a white beard that he thinks is Jesus. He literally thinks he's Jesus. Mm-hmm. His name is Jack Truitt.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Things to do here. All right. Of these, I'm going to give you two completely opposite things as far as culture goes. Enjoy $23 million. That's what there is to do here. That's the first thing to do is for the $23 million house set here. Listen to this shit. It's called Bethesda Row Arts Festival. Here's the description. I'm going to see if you notice a certain word they like to use here.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's in on a 50 year sentence for murder. He's not Jesus. No, that's news for you. Not Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He really fucked up, man. So this Jack Truitt, I'll just call him Jesus from now on. Jesus recalled the rancid smell coming from this man's cell. He said inside Haddon's locker, he had saved 15 cartons of milk. He said he would save them. It's hot. He'd just let them swell up. It was just rancid, man. I'd say to him, why do you do that? He told me it reminds me of decaying bodies.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
When Haddon started confessing to Jack because he thought it was Jesus, Jack was like, this is from Luciano, Jack was like, man, this guy's talking about killing, gutting and cannibalizing little kids and cutting the throats of women. So Luciano said Jack did this at great risk, being locked up in a correctional institution.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Calling the police can make a very bad entry to your health record while you're behind bars. But Jack picked up the phone and made that call. So they asked Jesus what Kristen is like. Have you met Kristen? He said, the whole demeanor to me changes when he's Kristen. When you talk to Haddon sometimes, he'll bow his head and talk with his eyes closed and constantly fiddle with his watch.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He's kind of slow and a little retarded. Everybody notices. Kristen is smart and evil. That's what's weird. When he switches personalities, he's 30 fucking points higher IQ. That's what's fucked up. It's weird. You can see there's nothing behind the eyes with Kristen. It's unnerving.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I can easily visualize him in a car dressed in women's clothes with a butcher knife riding the roads looking for a victim. So during this here, wow, they talk about a second female personality emerges now. Okay. Kristen's daughter, Nicole. Oh, no. Jesus said, quote, she is, I'm estimating, about 14 or 15. She's a pretty evil, pretty nasty person. A smart little kid with an attitude.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
She was mad because she felt the police were disrespecting her mother. When she'd stop and go to the bathroom, they'd take her to the men's bathroom and she'd get mad. On the way to Wellfleet, he got into a dispute with the detective and tried to bite him. This is Haddon. The detective said, Clark goes through these tirades.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The night before we went to find Michelle Dorr, he didn't eat, got lethargic, and he just got comatose on everybody. It's just like an exorcism he goes through. This is what Jesus said here. The tirades are a result of a conflict between Haddon and Kristen. They're fighting inside.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Jesus said, quote, when we went to get Michelle Dorr, Haddon's in the holding area and he won't talk to us. He's down on his knees beating his head against the wall and talking in a crazy language. He was in turmoil. We didn't know it, but the problem was that Kristen told him not to tell anyone where Michelle was buried. So Clark began telling the detectives he wanted to die.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He thought that it was a good day to die. So the detective said he held Clark's head in his lap for 20 miles in the car. He laid on his lap like a child. Then Clark tried to scratch him. Out of nowhere. He says like a cat. It's like a sketchy cat. Like I was scratching and biting. Yeah. Fuck. I pet him three times. He bit me like the first two.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
The next day, the detective said he rode from jail with a couple FBI agents and he tried that stuff and they tuned him up real cute. We brought him back and he's sporting this big black eye. I just kicked the shit out of him. They didn't care. Like you bite me. I'll beat your ass back here. So Clark and Jesus and the detectives went with several. That was the thing.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said, too, I won't do it unless Jesus can come. I'll show you where the body is if Jesus can come. So then this other murderer fucking guy, this murderer has to go on this trip. Yeah. Wow. So they said that Clark changed at the station. He said he wouldn't do it. He had to be dressed in women's clothes with Jesus next to him. Then he'd do it. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Every September, over 30,000 affluent art enthusiasts from the Washington, D.C. metro area and its surrounding suburbs converge upon the Bethesda Row Arts Festival. The three-mile radius surrounding the festival boasts an average household income of $196,910, positioning the event as one of the nation's most affluent and educated art marketplaces.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
So he said Clark changed at the station, a red wig, gray cotton blouse, sort of a pullover tan skirt with a pattern. I'm tempted to use the term Paisley, but I think I'm wrong. That's from a detective who doesn't know anything about women's clothing.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
You fucked it all up. Or those 90s ties. Yeah. He told the detective he placed an old box spring over her then covered her with dirt. The dogs worked for several hours without finding anything. One of the dog handlers took Clark aside and said to clear his head from all the people standing around being a distraction.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He said he was about 10 or 20 feet from me talking to the dog handler about what time of day it had been when he buried Michelle and where the son had been. I looked down and saw a wire sticking up and started pulling it. It looked to be about the size of a child's bed. I said, Haddon, is this it? He came over, looked around at the trees and landmarks.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Then he got down on his knees and started pawing at the ground like a dog.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yep. So that's where that's where she was. They found her there. Now, Jesus told the cops that if he wanted to discuss Clark's crimes, he had to address him as Kristen. And this guy said, when Clark finally called me, this person's talking, saying, hello, is this Haddon or Kristen? He said, who do you want? I can get them for you. I'll put them on. Well, I have some questions for Kristen.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Is she around? He paused and said, this is Kristen. What do you want?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I asked Clark if he would describe what happened to Sarah Pryor. He said, okay, that's the little girl we know, nine-year-old. Okay, that was 85 in the fall, an Indian summer kind of day. I was on my way to the area for Maryland to see my father. He lived in Sudbury, the town next door. My father was seeing another woman then. I think my mom and dad were divorced at the time.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I just got out of the military. Things weren't going so good for me. I got to the house and he wasn't there. I had plans to help him move some things. I drove all the way to help him move some stuff and he didn't show up. It's canceled. Big deal, but it's very frustrating to drive all that way, and it's canceled. I was on my way home. I forget what route I came through Wayland.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I asked this girl about directions. I was acting like I was lost. I already felt I was going to kill something.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I don't know what makes me feel that way. I know I have a problem. If I'm doing these things, I must have a problem, but no one gives me any help. Something makes me mad, and I take my anger out on anything. You get in my way, it's like a tornado. Oh, boy. So I sort of lured her into the car, pulled her in, took her to a field. One thing led to another.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I told her I wanted her mom, not her, and she didn't tell me where she was. I left her in the field then, covered up, and went to like one of those stores to get plastic bags. I came back, put her in the bags. It was late in the afternoon. The only thing I left behind was her head. I dropped it just like I dropped the pillowcase in Maryland by mistake. He just lost a head.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I headed back to Maryland. I knew the rest area where I could pull over and hide it and get it when I came back up. I think it was Rhode Island. I sort of buried it, put stuff around it so no animal can get to it. Rocks. It wasn't a permanent grave site. I had already planned on going to Wellfleet to bury her at my grandfather's place. I wasn't worried about anybody finding her before I got back.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I never had anybody find anything I didn't want them to find.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
No. He knows it. In 1997, a piece of bone small enough to fit in the palm of a hand turned up in a field in the town of Wayland. The fragment turned out to be a piece of Sarah Pryor's skull. And those are the only remains of her that have ever been found is one bone fragment from her skull.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
That's so fucked, man. So, yes, he takes them all around trying to find different things. Then they talk about other murders besides those two little girls killed and everything else. One is a woman he said he met in Vermont in 1975 or six and drove to Wellfleet and killed her and buried her on his grandfather's property. Her body was not found.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
He also says he killed a woman who's buried in Provincetown Cemetery under a marker that says unidentified female body found Race Point Dunes, July 26, 74. He said that's his.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Yes. Well, that's her marker.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Because they found her in the dunes and somebody buried her. In the newspaper story, she's referred to as the lady in the dunes. He said, Yikes. I folded up her clothes real nicely and I cut off her hands and stuffed her arms into the sand like she was doing push-ups. Then I took her... Wow. Then I took her hands and put them in her purse like a beach bag.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Would you like to come and stare at rich people, do shit that rich people do that you can't afford to do? Maybe they can tell you about their extra bathrooms. What do you say?
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
I cut off a couple of her fingers and used them for fishing bait. I buried her hands in a different place. I didn't bury her because I was making a statement. I don't know why I was doing it. Maybe if you were a trained psychologist, you could tell me. So I wanted her to be found.
Small Town Murder
#573 - Serial Killing Schizophrenic Cannibal - Bethesda, Maryland
Wow. That is fucking crazy. So Jesus has gone to all these places and everything. Yeah. So December 15th, 2000, shortly before Christmas, he tells Jesus what he had buried in the Wellfleet Cemetery and drawn and that had drawn the cadaver dogs was the body of a little girl named Sarah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He called, they was already gone. So, um, he said, I can't imagine what you felt when this is a question to the, an interviewer asked him when you opened it up, you'd come all this way and it was gone. What did you think? And he said, I thought it was time to get to work.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So according to this investigative report, he compiled the follow, the following trip, uh, following the trip to rally, uh, he'd be a Raleigh. He began to try and track down Martin's family, speaking with his sister, Juliet and her husband, Keith. At first they denied having any knowledge of it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But an hour later, the investigative report shows that they got back in touch with Smith and told him the truth.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Almost. Out of your minds. Out of your fucking minds. No. Not a chance. No way. Things to do here. The Hopkinsville International Festival.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
In a recorded call between the Andes and this investigator, he admits he removed the box from within the stairs, saw the 22 AR-15 in a long box inside.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He said, the husband said, I don't even remember. The gun freaked me out. I just put the shit back. And the sister said, we did not ask for any of this. We don't want to be involved in any of this.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No. While he said he didn't know what was in the long box, the deputies would later learn it was a silencer. They believe that both the AR and the silencer were used in the murders.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Wow. Deputies then said, well, if he put the box back under the stairs, why was it gone? And according to this, they said it had been picked up by Emma Spencer, the daughter of his ex-fiance. He got his ex-fiance, Laura's daughter, to do it. So they said, how do you address the elephant in the room with these people that they are now passing off weapons from a man convicted of triple murder?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The cop said, until I had retrieved the items, I had to play in between everybody's emotions. He said once he got all of this, he said he first contacted Emma Spencer, who testified on Kit's behalf during the trial, but she wasn't cooperative. He said at first she's acting like she doesn't know anything about it. She's very standoffish. I told her I don't want to get in any trouble.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't want you to get in any trouble being in possession of something that's regulated by the ATF. And she said, I'm at work. I have to go right now and all that kind of thing. Then at one point she said, okay, I moved it. My neighbor has it. And they tracked it down to a neighbor who confirmed he was given the .22 caliber AR-15, but that Spencer still had the silencer. She kept that herself.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They then asked if Emma could turn could instead turn the silencer over to him. And she showed up and the cop said he wasn't pleased. She said he said in a nice way to put it, she said, here it is. Now get out of North Carolina and never come back. She was rude to them, but they got the silencer. And he said, well, I just said thank you for bringing this to me.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This kept you out of a lot of trouble.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I can absolutely charge you as an accessory after the fact if I don't like it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No, you definitely don't. So they communicated through this daughter, through text, and she wrote to the news, if any information I give you is to discredit me or Kit, you can kindly piss off
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You're holding a silencer and you're not British, so you can fucking put that shit in your pocket. Jesus. So the appeal, he argues that they admitted hearsay statements.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
international international festival because obviously tacos obviously what do you think of when you think of international culture Kentucky Western Western rural Kentucky that's what I think of it says immerse yourself in global culture without leaving Christian County Well, I mean, it doesn't get more convenient than that, everybody. That sounds great.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They allowed his ex-wife and stepson to refuse to testify, excluded certain alleged alternative perpetrator evidence, admitted evidence of a bullet casing that was discovered by a lay witness and excluding evidence that the same witness failed a polygraph examination, denying his motion for a directed verdict on the arson and murder charges, allowing his convictions on two counts of first degree burglary to stand in violation of double jeopardy principles.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So the arson charges, he's got a point because a deceased person cannot occupy a building. Only a live person can occupy a building.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The court has specifically held a defendant cannot be convicted of first degree arson when the Commonwealth failed to produce sufficient evidence that the person inside the building was actually alive at the time of the fire and that the defendant was aware of that fact. It has to be both. They have to be alive and the guy has to know he's alive. They're alive in there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said they point to the evidence of the bodies of Pam and Ed Denzero who were badly charred. The Commonwealth refers to the evidence of a fire discovered near Cal's body. Thus, the Commonwealth argues the evidence was inconclusive so the jury could reasonably infer that they were alive when the fire started. That's not enough, though.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said, having carefully reviewed the record and arguments, we reverse Martin's arson and attempted arson convictions and otherwise affirm everything. So life without cocksucker. Keep it going.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So you're not a flamer. Yeah. So they have all of this shit here. Now, the book is called I Will Ruin You, The Twisted Truth Behind the Kit Martin Murder Trial. And it's by Emilio Corsetti, the third author. And here is just a quick little thing, a synopsis that they say here. Guilty until proven innocent.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The true story of Christian Kit Martin, the former Army major and airline pilot convicted of a triple homicide. The true story of the former Army major and airline pilot charged in a triple murder and the web of lies that led to his problematic conviction.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yep, I swear to God. They said, why were so many observers convinced of his innocence? The evidence against Kit Martin consisted primarily of a dog tag with the defendant's name on it and a shell casing that was identified as having been fired from his gun. Yeah, that's... What more do you want? His identification... That's called evidence. That's called evidence is what that's called.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That was it. They said both pieces of evidence were supplied to the police by family members of two of the victims months after the crime. The defense suggested both pieces of evidence had been planted to frame the defendant. The dog tag, for example, is not an official military dog tag.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It was discovered on a bookshelf next to the victim's phone and wallet, and it was on a string, which the one guy explained away pretty easily here. Um, they said, lastly, Kit Martin had alibi witnesses and security camera footage that proved he could not have committed any of the murders.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's not true though, because they found work records and stuff showed that no, he had plenty of time to do that. Um, yeah. So anyway. That went on. Then Kit, because this causes this giant, like, weird fervor here. By the way, Kit right now is DOC number 318956, serving life without parole at the Little Sandy Correctional Complex. Yeah. And... Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Hopkinsville International Festival has been rapidly expanding since the first event in 2009. Over the years, it has evolved into a bigger venue and more variety. The event celebrates the vast cultural diversity found in Hopkinsville. I gave you the cultural diversity. It's fucking 80% white, 20% black. That's the cultural diversity. Very diverse.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And then he wrote an article in 2016, by the way. This is before the murder conviction, before he was even charged with it, while he was at Fort Leavenworth for 90 days. Oh, yeah. Remember for the other shit?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's called NCFM Hero Christian Kit Martin, quote, the real expendables, falsely accused military men.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He then has a picture of Joan here. And it says, felon, check. Abuser, check. Fraudster, check. Liar, check. Murderer, maybe.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She's pretty, pretty late. So they said he goes, I'm not going to read his whole thing because it is propaganda. Honestly, it's like fucking there's a certain area of the Internet right now where this is the hot propaganda. I ain't going to give this shit a fucking breath of air because it's bullshit. He basically says, yes, let me look through this.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yes, court-martials, they said, are up 550% since 2007, he says. Convictions are similarly growing exponentially. Army prisoners are up from 119 in 2010 to 593 in 2014. That's because they made a concerted effort to fucking prosecute criminals. The whole point was there was...
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Decades and decades and decades of fucking documented shit that said the army doesn't do shit when people do things to other soldiers. Constant. Rapes don't get prosecuted. Assaults don't get prosecuted. So they said, let's start prosecuting those things. It wasn't that they just were making those up. They just were actually prosecuting crimes. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said this is due primarily to false sexual assault epidemic, he says. False. This is politically motivated narrative almost identical to what's happening in our universities. You know who this asshole is now. He's trying to use political things for his own advantage, for his own scummy crimes. And it's fucking pathetic.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
What a twat. U.S. veteran men are now the new political prisoners of the world. The real expenditures are expendables. Wow. This is fucking wild. After years of working to earn rank and respect, these combat veterans are now being treated like children and guarded by children, too. Most guards are teenage privates straight out of high school and basic training. Yeah, because it's a shit job.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
When I was a teenage private, I would have been too humbled to even speak to a real veteran such as my current brothers and I are – brothers I am confined with now. I was in awe of real soldiers that had actually fought in war, men who were paratroopers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He wants the fucking guards in there to be in awe of him. Right.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, they would be if you weren't a fucking piece of shit. They would be in awe of you.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. That's like, imagine that. I respect a lot of people, but if I was guarding them because they killed three fucking people, I don't respect you anymore. Fuck you. I respect you less because I'm trying to become this and you have now denigrated the fucking image of this.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, no one should dislike this guy more than military people. He is disgracing their fucking uniform, not other people. Anyway, so it's fucking wild. Anyway, they say that he goes on to really go off on the sexual assault thing. Like, it's fucking wild, some of the shit he said. These poor soldiers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The machine spares know this.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The Global Village is an essential festival destination. You're invited to join in this exciting cultural exchange. It's like Epcot Center except in Kentucky.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
When you have an epidemic, you must show your solutions working. When you're spending $257 million a year to convict veterans and building $95 million prison, you have to have a lot of hammers. You must find nails to justify those hammers. I bet you don't mind when they build fucking prisons and put fucking civilian criminals in them, though.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You're happy about it, probably, because that's where most of you go to fucking work after you're done. Not most of you, but a lot of you, cops and prison guards and shit.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And if they do, the respect of what they've done should wipe it all out.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He goes through all this and says, maybe that's why 22 vets a day take their own lives. Oh, don't pull that. You fucking piece of shit. God damn it. I hope somebody fucking. Oh, they will. Piece of shit. Fuck you. OK, I'm done with this asshole. There you go, everybody. Pembroke, Kentucky. So I was 98% positive he did it. Then I read that. Now I'm 3,000% positive he did it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Go fuck yourself right in your ass, Kit. He's a bad man. Your dog tags, your medals, and your Apache helicopter right up your fucking asshole, and I don't care.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
For nothing. Just for doing his job, which, yes, thank you for your service. No thank you for everything else you've done in life.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So anyway, there you go. That's that. Check that out. Definitely rate and review on any of the podcast apps you're listening on. Please shut up and give me murder.com. Tickets for live shows are right there. Pittsburgh, February 7th. You're up first. Columbus, you're sold out, babe. Hell yeah. Love you. Thank you, Columbus. We are going to definitely, I think we probably have comps.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Rocket Money found it and saved me lots of money since then because it's been a while. So they did a great job here. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending. and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
There might be 10 more tickets we'll release, but that's it. That's it. Pittsburgh, you're up next. A lot of the others are selling out, too. So get your tickets right goddamn now. Even if you want to go in December, November, get your tickets now. Do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all your bonus materials. $5 a month or above.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, walking tacos. We are looking for people with an international heritage who are willing to set up a booth showcasing their country of origin.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Gets you a huge back catalog and new shit every other week, including this week, Crime and Sports. Travis Rudolph, an NFL player who just finished up a murder trial. Multiple murders, I believe, too. And then for Small Town Murder, West Memphis 3, baby. Part 2. Figure out what the fuck happened there. Can't wait. That is patreon.com slash crimeinsports.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Also follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. Now, Jimmy, hit me with the names. The people who would never, ever, ever, ever try to use whatever uniform they were wearing to justify horrible crimes. Hit me with them right fucking now.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's a lateral move. At least you're home. At best. But home is always a positive move.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We'll find something. I'm going to find something in the office to send him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I'm going to send you something for that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't know if that's great or bad for your future, but either way, we love you, Lucas.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
God damn. Tell your parents. Maybe they won't want this. Or don't tell your parents. We'll be like your Judas Priest or something, you know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We're looking for you if you're out there. You don't have to be from here. No one said that. The International Festival presents a variety of different cultural dance performances as well as musical groups. The variety is growing every year and many of the performers provide an interactive session so that attendees can learn... the dances for themselves. Okay. Now I looked it up.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He plays it quiet at night and shit.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Flashlight under the fucking sheet tent. Oh, Lucas.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You're fucking great. Rock on, Lucas. Hail Satan.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No, we know the good reverend. Yes. We know the good reverend. That's a different Gilliam.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Different Gilliam, no. Yeah, no, it's John. The good Reverend Jonathan Gilliam. That's it. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I think it's... Not a Reverend. Not a Reverend at all.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Armand Gilliam, the NBA player. That's a different... Totally. Totally different guy.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Stephen Baker, the ex-Giants wide receiver. Stephen Baker, the touchdown maker. That's the guy. That's the guy. Yes. Number 85 himself. Fuck yeah, Stephen Baker.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He died at like 114. I think he was that old.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I watched her. I can't get Sanitarium out of my head now.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Oh, the 2024 festival was canceled. So they said they were taking a year off. They said, okay, so once a year festival, we'll take this year off. It's a little too much for us. So I looked it up. These are the bands they've had over the past. Let's see. We've had Travis Tritt, actually, headline the fifth annual Hopkinsville Summer Salute. He did. To the Limit, The Ultimate Eagles Experience. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Zach Kell. James Petrigallo with no last name.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Thank you, everybody, so much. Appreciate all that you do for us. Honestly, we can't thank you enough for that. Patreon is the lifeblood of the show. Thank you for what you do for us, and we will keep that shit cranking for you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So do that. Keep coming back. Tell your friends. Keep hanging out with us.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You want to follow us on social media, shut up and give me murder.com. You can find all that shit right there. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
An Eagles cover band. Africa Nashville, a band that performed 2023. The Jimmy Church Band. Yeah. A local band. Yep, there you go. A local band. I'm Jimmy Church. We knew. The Jason Montgomery Band. Guess what that is? A local band. Local band.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Oh, totally. That's how they got on the gig. Travis turned me on to it. Clint Holmes, Nikki Harris, Keith Gans. These are all jazz performers. Travis Tritt, Olivia Fey.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, well, they say it's a country music icon. Otherwise, I would say Travis Tritt with one T probably is not... An up-and-comer from... Travis with a Y. Yeah. Olivia Fey is an up-and-comer from Western Kentucky who opened for Travis Tritt at the fifth annual.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And Kyle Daniel, also a country artist from Western Kentucky, who opened for Travis Tritt. So, crime rate in this town, Jesus Christ. Property crime, a little bit over half of the average. So, almost half the average. So, low is what we're saying. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime, is a little less than half the average also.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, it's pretty safe here, I would assume, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's right. There's nobody here. You'd know exactly who killed you. That said, let's talk about some seriously wild murder here. Let's get into this. All right. Let's talk about a guy first. Christian Richard Martin. Talk about first. He doesn't go by any of those names, though. No? No. He goes by Kit. K-I-T. Yeah, which is exactly what you would think, right? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Wait till you hear how he got that nickname, because it's fucking ridiculous. Yeah, it's a self-given nickname, which is always great. You can't do that. You can't do that. He was born in 1968, and his family's a big military family. Uh-huh. Everybody in the family is military. All the guys. His dad is a 30-year Air Force veteran, served in Vietnam.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
His sister served in the Air Force and retired after 20 years. So they're a hardcore military family. The grandfather was in the Army Cavalry.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. Grandfather was riding a goddamn horse with a fucking sword and shit. Those don't exist anymore, right? They still have the cavalry, but they're mainly... But they don't... It's mainly ceremonial. We're not going in a ground combat against tanks and fucking missiles and sending a bunch of guys on fucking horses. I would hope not.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, with a big sword coming off and a plume on their hat. I don't think that's going on right now.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Let's hope not. Let's just say that. I hope we've come more. If we have stealth bombers and we're still like, mount the horses, gentlemen. Mount up. We've got problems. We are not using our resources efficiently, I would say, at that point. So, yeah, there's even a – they would travel a lot. When he was two, Kit's family moved to Europe. Oh, where at? Around, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He lived in Germany and other – they got transferred, I guess, around a few times. They traveled throughout Europe and he got to experience all these other countries and maybe the international festival thing was his idea. Yeah. He came here, he's like, guys.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You have no idea. Everything from kraut to a different kind of kraut. It's great over there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So he lived in different parts of the world, and this didn't make him like the world more. It made him appreciate his own country more, he said. That's what he said. I've heard that, too. Made me appreciate, you know, I guess just makes you appreciate a standard toilet, I think, probably.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The outlet, yeah. And you can get like Cocoa Puffs, like whatever, you know what I'm saying?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, yeah. They have those in England now and they are really excited about it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Oh, my God. English people fucking love Taco Bell. I was watching. There's these videos. They give American foods to these British high school kids. I've showed you some of these videos before. And there's one where they give them Taco Bell. And the looks on these kids' faces, it's like you gave them their first hit of crack. The look is like, oh, shit, I got to get more of that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
crazy their eyes like like you could see the whites of their eyes all around they're like oh my god this is proper this is amazing oh my god holy shit and they're just housing this shit yeah they love it it's crazy and you know my kids eat it they certainly like when i give them options of things that we because for whatever reason we're not making dinner there's this this and this nearby taco bells they all go
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
All right, I guess, and then you eat it anyway.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, and Taco Bell's actually like the least bad for you. Really? Yeah, because it's not even real beef. It's soy shit. Nothing's real in there. They use real beef. Jack in the Box uses soy in the tacos. Really? Yeah, that makes sense. I don't even care because they're delicious. It's some weird paste. I don't give a shit. I don't give a fuck. Put them in my face. They're so good. They're so good.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
rocketmoney.com slash smalltownmurder. Now back to the show.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
i love a jack-in-the-box taco every once in a while i'm sitting in new york just craving a jack-in-the-box taco every time i go back to phoenix it's one of the first things it's not meat that's probably not cheese no but their hot sauce is so good too it's like actually hot that taco sauce is amazing fucking oh my god taco
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
fucking jack-in-the-box taco sauce is crazy god damn it okay so um one thing about kit moving around a lot and i understand this because i went to fucking eight different schools or whatever is when you move around a lot you have to keep starting over which is hard you know what i mean i'm never in a place long enough to really settle down
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Never get on a baseball team or something for a couple years and have any lasting relationships or anything like that. He ends up, before he graduates high school, he signs up for the Army Reserves at age 17. Really? Yeah. So he graduated high school, then went right into basic training at Fort Knox.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
After that, he did a he enrolled in the University of Nebraska and joined the ROTC program at University of Nebraska. So he's in the reserves and the ROTCs and he worked nights and then attended school and did the weekends with the Army Reserve. So busy. Very busy guy here. But the army ended up gifting him with a scholarship or gifting him or whatever.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I guess he earned a scholarship because of all the shit he was doing. So so they helped him out with his college here. He meets a young lady named Stacey. Okay. Now, Stacy, he meets her at Fort Lewis, Washington. He is completing officer training for the ROTC, and Stacy was in the ROTC program at Middle Tennessee State University, and they dated a little bit and, you know, all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He finished his degree in Nebraska. She was doing her thing in Tennessee. They have a bit of a long-distance relationship that they're going to keep together, basically, here. Now, Kit...
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
graduates from the university of nebraska in 1990 he's got a degree in geography which i did not know you could earn a degree in geog i know where things are is a really strange college yeah i memorized the globe that's you good for you you can point out ghana on the map without any countries being labeled terrific how many countries are there it's like 144 or something there's more than that yeah there's 200 something there's not a gross of them
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
There's a, yeah, no, no, not 144. No grosses. So yeah. Geography. I'd like, I said, I didn't realize that was a, like a, yeah, that's wild. You could get a degree in that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't think four years it takes to figure out where the countries are probably, but who knows? I could be, I'm sure there's something more to it and we'll get messages saying, you know, actually it's all this. There's like cartography involved in it. And Matt, who the hell knows? I don't know. So his scholarship came with the stipulation because the Army gave him the scholarship to do this.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But obviously the stipulation is once you're done, then you come full time in the Army.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's how that works. So he does that. His first assignment was with the Signal Corps at Fort Ord in California. Fort Ord has come up so many times on this show. It's ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Really weird how many people on this show have gone had Fort Ord like, you know, roots or whatever. So he's not real thrilled with this, by the way. This isn't his top assignment. He doesn't want to be a signal officer. So he applied and was accepted to Army Ranger School.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, yeah, he said it was really bad Army Ranger training. My mother, back in the day, we lived with a guy who was her boyfriend who was a Navy SEAL. Your mom dated a Navy SEAL? Yeah, we lived with him for years. Yeah, yeah. He, number one, told me a bunch of crazy shit, but also, like, they had a video. They had, like, a yearbook and a video when you graduate from the thing. Oh, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, yeah, no, not like a video. Here's us torturing a fucking Saudi Arabian man. No, no. So he had, like, they made video of their training. It's fucking insane, dude, the shit that they make those guys do. So any of those special forces, it's wild. I mean, the stuff he told me about, like... They damn near drown them several times. Oh, they drop them out miles out.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They run the boat in circles so they don't know where they are. They drop them off with nothing, and they're like, find your way back to shore, assholes.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. And they have to like make fucking flotation devices out of pants and shit while they're doing it. It's fucking crazy. So it's like, it's wild. And also, I guess that's to build a, you know, if one guy's drowning, help him and all that kind of shit, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're, like, back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That and the tear gas shit they had to do was nuts. It was crazy. So anyway, that's what he does. He described this as really, really shitty, essentially, here. He said later that he had signed up for the Ranger course for more leadership skills, saying, though, that it took him about six months to recover physically from the Ranger training. Abuse.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
From the just, yeah, horrible abuse. So he ends up, while he's at Fort Ord, he flew to Tennessee to marry Stacy.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This is May 1991. He marries Stacy. He's 22. She's 25. They had a military wedding, like military, all in uniform and all that kind of shit. They said their vows. They walked through the, you know. sabers that they do, the whole military thing, and that was that. They walk off into the sunset here. Stacey ends up moving to California a month after that. She's done with her thing.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This week in Pembroke, Kentucky, three mysterious murders in one night get much less mysterious when detectives figure out that someone who looks very upstanding might not be so upstanding and may actually be a full-fledged monster. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They have their first child, a girl named Megan, in December of 1992. So then, yeah, they liked California, Kit and Stacey. As a family, they liked going to the beach all the time, a lot of hiking and that kind of thing because there's a lot of that there. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Stacy, the thing that she doesn't like here, she's not from a military family, by the way. So she didn't move around a ton as a kid and all that. So all this moving around that they have to do, she's not used to and doesn't really like it. No. So they moved to Fort Lewis in Washington and were there for a while. He had a brief stint on active duty during Desert Storm. That's or she did.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I'm sorry. Then she resigned her position and she said that the primary factor was the possibility of the two of them being deployed.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
and they again what the fuck are you gonna do with her why okay i don't understand if you're if you're the army and you have a married couple with a kid you can't deploy both of them there you go problem solved there it is yeah only one of the couple can be deployed that's it i mean you get rules for all kinds of other shit i don't understand why that's even difficult to fucking that should be like the easiest thing to deal with yeah we can't send both parents over there to get killed that's crazy
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Even in World War II, though, there was – you know what I mean? If you were the breadwinner for the family and you had four kids, they didn't send you over there so your family could starve. That wasn't part of it. You know what I'm saying? There's certain extenuating circumstances. If they have a little kid, I would say, all right, well, yeah, only one of you. Yeah. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Kit wants to fly helicopters. That's his ambition, to fly helicopters, which to me is the scariest thing in the world.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't like it at all. I'm terrified by it, and they just crash a lot. I don't want to fly in one. No. Fuck no.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I'd rather fly it than sit in it. Put it that way. And I don't want to fly it at all.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I'm not doing that shit. It doesn't make any sense. I don't know physics, but if I did, I would say that doesn't make any sense.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Well, I mean, yeah, that's a whole other. Nope. That alone. Your car wheels spin.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The rest of the car doesn't tumble past it with it. That's all right.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't get it. I don't want to just see it stop and then we plummet from the sky. That's what I'm worried about.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's fucking crazy, dude. I can't.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I would never stop staring at it out the window. It's all I'd be doing is making sure. There it goes. Okay. I couldn't stop.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I knew it. So he resigned from active duty and he returned to the Army Reserves, which would allow him to take up flying. That was his point. So Stacy and the daughter here go back to Tennessee and stay with Stacy's parents for a little while while he completes his flight training. And Stacy gets a real estate license and all that kind of thing. And she's got her mom watching the kids.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So it's an easier deal for her. Kit tries to get jobs with different civilian organizations while in flight school. He has a few little jobs just to make ends meet. The flight school is in Fort Rucker, Alabama, by the way. He worked at a casket factory once. How many of those could there be? You know what I'm saying? That's like how many hearses are made a year.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
There's a finite number of caskets that are going out every year.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
As many as you want. They don't go bad or anything, right?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, and you know about how many you're going to need every year, too. That's the other thing. Yeah, yeah. You can just chart the population, how many people die, and you can get probably within a couple thousand people of how many caskets are going to be needed for a year. So that's interesting. He also worked part-time as a karate instructor.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another insane edition of Small Town Murder. And, man, do we have a crazy one for you today. As usual, hope you've been enjoying lately. Definitely head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com right now. Get your tickets for live shows. There we go.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So the two most weird jobs I can think of are karate instructor and casket factory worker. Those are so weird. Yeah. Caskets and karate, this guy likes. And he eventually landed a job pay that paid a little better in telecommunications in Atlanta, Georgia. He tried to commute from Alabama to Atlanta, which seems like quite the ride, I would say.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But it became difficult, and then he had to quit because he couldn't do it. If you're commuting two and a half hours each way, it's not worth it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't think it existed. That was in the city of Atlanta. I think he was in Fort Rucker, Alabama. I don't think they had. They had a casket factory. That's what they had.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And four kids with rickets and scurvy that wanted to learn karate. That was it. So after getting his helicopter license, he took a job with Air Logistics, which would fly helicopters out to oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I guess, yeah, to ferry people back and forth.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, exactly. If someone needs to get off the rig, they can't turn it around and take it all the way back to shore, so they get a helicopter out there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No one's making a pit stop for you. Like, if you have to piss, do it now because we ain't pulling over. It's one of those things. You don't go to shore for a lunch break. No, definitely not. So this would spend a lot of time away from the family with this, too. Because you would basically have to go all the way down there, and you'd be on for two weeks, and then you'd get five days off.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
On for two weeks, you get five days off. So that's how they did it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No shit. So now Kit, how he got the name Kit. I guess his family called him Chris. No one ever called him Christian. That was never his family called him Chris. Stacy, his wife, only knew him as Chris. But apparently because Chris is a very common name. Real common name. Apparently, when he was in the guard, there were just shitloads of guys named Chris in his class.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Just tons of guys named Chris. So he felt, he felt, not other people. All the Chris's should have got together and go, we all need nicknames. Let's give each other nicknames or something. He said, I need a nickname. I can't just be another Chris in the crowd. I'm not that kind of guy here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So he said that he remembered one camping and hiking trip as a Boy Scout where he visited the grave of Christopher Kit Carson. You know, the frontiersman Kit Carson.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
pittsburgh february 7th you are on deck first up for the year let's start the year off right pittsburgh next night in columbus is already sold out so unbelievable unbelievable thank you and also the ones later on uh portland is like just about sold out and that's in november so get that seattle's
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And Kit Carson was also a cavalry scout and an army officer. So he said he just adopted the name, just started introducing himself as Kit Martin. And people just, all right, he said his name's Kit. How you doing, Kit? Which if you move to new places, you could say your name's anything and just introduce yourself as that. That's your name now.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's it. That's fucking hilarious. You can't do that if you live somewhere for like 30 years. You can't just turn around and say, I'm this guy now. They're like, no, you're not. Shut up, Chris. Chris. Shut the fuck up, Chris. God damn it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We'll call you Chris. God damn it. We went to third grade together. Don't you tell me what your name is. So Kit and Stacy are going to end up having two more children, boys named Chase and Zachary. And Kit spent, you know, he liked hanging out with his family and shit like that. Apparently, he claims that he would help with all the chores and the dinners and all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's just his words. Who knows how true that is? He liked to take the boys outside, apparently, to help them show them how to tend to the animals they had on their property. They had chickens, horses, and miniature horses.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's a miniature horse. I think that they have maybe the real tiny horses.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They have like the toy horses, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, I think maybe one of those. But their relationship starts faltering here. They've been married 12, 13 years. And in March of 2004, Stacy asks for a divorce. Now, okay, he doesn't know what to do with himself. They're going to get divorced. They're going to split up here. Okay. He's been in the military. He met her in the military.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, he doesn't really know how to date. He's never really, you know, gone out and met girls and dated them and done any of that kind of shit. Like, I'm sure, I don't know if he's met them in bars and went home with them for a night or something, but he doesn't know how to, like, get a girlfriend, really, unless he runs into them at a work function. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, but at this point, he was an Army Ranger. He has had over 1,000 hours of combat flying, including 500 hours while using night vision gear, which is a separate thing. That's a lot, yeah. You know, all that kind of thing. He flew an Apache attack helicopter and all that kind of shit. So, you know, he's got a lot of life experience, but doesn't really know how to date. I do.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He married young, didn't do that, so he wrote a few words about himself and posted them on Yahoo Personals, which is the greatest thing I've ever fucking heard in my life. In 2004? In 2004, Yahoo Personals. That's a very 98 thing to do, I feel like, right?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Dude, I don't know, but they do have Yahoo Answers, which are fucking hilarious. Oh, great. Just ask any quest. They're so funny. And people answer them. Oh, it's so funny, dude. Yeah, it's hilarious. We'll do it as a bonus episode one of these days. But Yahoo Personals is where he posted.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
getting close get your tickets there also philly and dc in december are getting there so yeah seriously if you guys want to go this year get your tickets right now everywhere except pittsburgh they're flying out the door so do that get in there right now that is shut up and give me murder duck yeah and then our newest date we just announced madison wisconsin hey
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
One of the first women to contact him back was a woman named Joan, and I guess her screen name was Surfer Girl. All right. So they meet in person for lunch at O'Charlie's. I don't know if that's an Irish sports bar or that place in the mall with bad sandwiches in the food court. Which one is that?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Okay. Charlie's Steakery. All right. Okay. All the time. It's not O'Charlie's. That shit is awful. That is so bad.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, you did. You got good and sick from that shit. You were like, I shouldn't eat that much Charlies. I remember you were like, what is wrong? That was a lot of Charlies. I blame the hot mayo still.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's like, well, that's that, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They cook it like bakes into the bread. It's not good. You can't get it out. You can scrape it off or anything.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Oh, yeah. That was a good one. I was like... I don't want to kick you while you're down, but you think maybe you brought this on yourself? Oh, Christ. So, yeah, Kit, now the divorce is final, but Kit is still living at the house.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, I guess he – I don't know if this is true or not, but he's telling everyone that he was staying in the bonus room, in their extra room, while waiting for the house to be sold. So he's like, well, we can't afford to go get separate – Can't get two, yeah. Yeah, places. So Kit said they were just roommates by this point. That's what he's telling everybody. So he has a date with Joan.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He told Stacy he was leaving early to go to work rather than saying that he had a date. Yeah. So Stacey said, hmm, I don't know about this. So she followed him. We're divorced.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We are divorced. Yeah. And this is why. So, no.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Stacy was very upset when she saw Kit be actually going out on a lunch date to O'Charlie's with Joan. Don't worry.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's all right. He'll be back later at home. Trust me. He's going to want to stay next to that home base toilet later.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. That no one else has to use. Let's hope for that, a bonus shitter. So, now, Joan Harmon is Joan. Joan Harmon Guerra, actually. She was married to a guy named Carlos Guerra. Joan's parents were divorced. Her father, who she accused of abuse, also. Her father was a Navy officer.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now you know why we didn't announce it, because we announced the day after they had a pretty bad thing happen in their town. So we didn't want to be like, hey, shut up and give me murder. We're decent people. As we say, we're assholes, but we're not scumbags.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, this makes sense. This is... Yeah. You know?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
A lot of times the people who come from military families look for military people because they're just used to that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No, but also people get abused and then look for people with the qualities of the abusers. That's just that's psychology until you get a shitload of therapy. That's how your brain works. You know, like you look to repeat cycles. So maybe that's I'm not sure. Her mother was a nurse. And yeah, she's pretty attractive here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She's described in a book as, quote, petite, but had a shapely figure and long blonde hair.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Big-titted blonde girl. Yeah, that's a tough sell. They're oftentimes single forever. It's a real tough sell. Yeah, you can't get them out there at all. Especially, they just sit on the shelf, those gals.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No, no, no. No one likes big-breasted blondes.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Basically nonexistent at this point, really. So she told Kit that she had three children, oldest one being seven years old at the time. She's got two little girls, and the oldest is a boy, by the way. She said that the father of her son had died in a logging accident and had been decapitated in that accident.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
My son's father has been fucking beheaded in a logging accident, which is a very odd.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, if you heard that happen in 1876, you'd go, that's dangerous work right there, but decapitated in a logging accident.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
From the Patreon episode? Yes. Totally, man. Yes, exactly. But this is like, I mean, from what I understand, it's one of the most dangerous jobs actually logging.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's very dangerous. But I don't know about decapitations, if that's normal. That seems like they should probably work something out where people's heads stay on.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, yeah. So she said that was her first child's father, decapitated. She said the two girls at that time, at the time they were two years old and nine months old, she said that husband, she was divorced from him. Okay. So she painted a negative picture, didn't didn't say that the said that her ex-husband was pretty shitty and that she had concerns for her safety.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Let it have a little time to simmer on the back burner there. So definitely head over. Get your tickets right now. Also, listen to the other two shows that we do. Crime in sports, which I assure you, you do not have to like sports. We're doing China right now. Remember the rest of China? Joni Lohr. We're doing a multi-parter on her right now with Evil Knievel coming up next. That's a lot of fun.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She said that he used to stalk her and threaten her. And once they broke up, he broke into her apartment.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
At the most. So now I don't know, like I said, if this is just how someone she was like looking for. You know what I mean? Almost not consciously, but subconsciously, which your brain does here. So Kit agreed to rent a U-Haul and help Joan move into a rental property that he owned. So you can move into my rental place. And he didn't charge her rent and even paid for her food and bills.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's what he says. Yeah, that's what he did. He's like, yeah, I had to help old Joan out here. Get her away from that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's what I'm saying. And he's staying in the bonus room of his ex-wife's house. How about I'll be at the rental property that we own if no one's there. If it's open and just ladies can just move in at any time. Now, she apparently from what some people say, they say she had some inconsistencies in her stories about her parents and the fathers of her children and stuff like that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Kit said he he broke up with her shortly after she moved into his rental property because he was unsure of her and what she was all about. But they got back together when Joan called to say that her brother died in Iraq. Like, not just had a heart attack eating a falafel, actually, like in the military. Yikes.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, so Kit met with Joan to offer his condolences, and then, you know, that's always going to lead to fucking death. We'll lead to fucking every time. It's real weird.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's impossible to not feel a little better, I think. That's why.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
If you just come, you got to feel a little better, at least for a minute. You know what I mean? Just a little bit.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So at that time, Kit applies for the aviation captain's career course at Fort Rucker, Alabama. So, yeah, and he's kind of getting into her family as far as – you know, the kids know him and all that kind of thing. Um, he decided he was going to go back to active duty and he was, they were saying that, you know, he'd probably be sent overseas somewhere.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
okay just getting the license and putting it through and then they realized they got married on pearl harbor day which they were like oh shit that was a dumb i mean it's the day they'll live in infamy yeah i guess we'll never forget it i guess yeah yeah you can't forget it what's your anniversary what's your anniversary hold on a second this day december 7th okay wait yeah it's december 7th 19 1940 no not 1941 no no no i'm sorry uh yeah i almost said we were married in 41 my bad
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Then for definitely do that and also listen to Your Stupid Opinions, which is just goddamn hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
so uh he is having money problems at the time um here he is i guess he's not making a lot of money in the army and he was paying stacy 1728 a month in child support as well god three kids so um yeah it's not not doing well there uh obviously financially that's that's time so So 2005, he is assigned to go to Germany with the army.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So Kit and Joan took a belated honeymoon cruise of the Mediterranean before the move to Germany. Well, they must have had some money.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You know? $5,000 it cost, they said. Sure. They basically put it in credit cards, debt, just to do it. You know? So I guess, you know, there was some fighting between... The weird thing is, they seemed to get along, but Joan and Stacey would fight, Kit said. Uh-huh.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, he said that he wrote, quote, my daughter Mackenzie, that's Megan Mackenzie, the first kid, has always been very smart, a straight A student. If given the choice, I think she would prefer to live with us as they were. He was trying to they were doing a court thing here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
you can hear about me getting a concussion in a diner it's a lot of fun check all that out and then if that's not enough check out patreon patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of your bonus material anybody five dollars a month or above not only do you get hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard immediately upon subscription you also get new ones every other week one crime in sports one small town murder and you get it all baby you get
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And the I guess the kid, Megan Mackenzie there, I guess Kit wanted to fly his kids to Germany to show him to show them where he lived when he was a kid. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
stacy though the ex-wife would only allow them to visit germany if she was allowed to come along i guess so he couldn't keep them in germany i i guess that's her fear so um kit said uh joan wasn't going to be okay with that so kit would end up having to fly back to the united states when he wanted to see the kids so rather than that rather than have his ex-wife come stay at the stay with you guys that could be weird um
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So now during their marriage here, they end up moving back to the States, as we'll talk about. But during all this, Joan and Kit live with her daughters and also her son, Justin Elijah, who goes by Elijah. Nobody goes by their first name in Kentucky, by the way. Nobody does, it seems like. We've had four characters. None of them go by their first name. Male characters. So Iraq now, too.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Kit served three tours of duty in Iraq. And then in 2010 is when they moved back to the States. They head to Rhode Island, where I guess Kit pursued a master's degree in national defense at the Navy War College. By this time, he reached the rank of major, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Pretty good up there, yeah. Majors, it's high up there. His first military assignment after war college was Fort Campbell, Kentucky, with the 101st Airborne Division. So, moves to Kentucky.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No fucking clue. I couldn't have any less idea about that. No clue. So they moved to Kentucky, Fort Campbell's in western Kentucky, and Joan found a house online in Pembroke, Kentucky.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Which is where we are. So she told Kit she needed something to keep her occupied and fixing up an old house would work. So she wanted to get an older house and fix it up. You bet it will. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That'll keep your whole entire life, every second of your goddamn day occupied. And your dreams, too.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And even then, it will take over your life and destroy it also. Even if just not doing the work doesn't help at all. Your house is still destroyed and you can't live in it. And it's almost, I think, doing the work would be easier. At least you know what's going on as a contractor. You're like, it's never going to stop.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, they just keep showing up and I don't know when they're going to be done.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't know. I wake up to saws every day. That's all I know. I wake up to sawing.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't know. So Kit said, yeah, he liked an older home, and one, he wanted some extra land, too. He wanted some acreage, and he wanted to get a couple farm animals. Fuck yeah. Mini horses, you know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, Kit had lived on a farm before, and he thought that maybe caring for animals would also help the kids learn some responsibility.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So they bought a house at auction for $60,000. Wow. Wow. Yeah. 60 grand at auction. That's awesome. Yeah. And this was in 2010, I believe. So there's a lot of houses open. So their first job they did to it was to repaint it. And they did because I guess, you know, paint falls off and you got to have good paint on there or else your house will rot away.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So they paint it bright yellow, which is quite the choice.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No, no, no, no, no, no. Okay for like a weird sports car or something. Not okay for a house.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Nope. There's a few yellow houses around me and they are hideous. Every time. Hideous.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's the shit. I've showed you the school bus yellow one, that one house that you can see it from space. It's a huge, like a 7,000 square foot fucking monstrous house. Bright, horrifying yellow. You can see it from miles away. Dude, it is. It really is. It's scary.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
this week which you're going to get for crime and sports we're going to talk about travis rudolph who is an nfl player briefly but more importantly just finished up a pretty well publicized murder trial which is a lot of fun so we'll talk about that and then for small town murder west memphis three part two talk a little bit more about how the hell this all happened and how hbo how we needed a documentary or three to talk about this and everything else so
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So they're in Pembroke, and this is when they actually get to spend some time together, Joan and Kit, because they're actually doing normal shit here. You know what I mean? Like living a normal life. And then he would get a military assignment and be gone for a while. And he come back. And so obviously this is going to cause some strife in the relationship as they as it often does here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And by the way, Kit claims that Joan lost interest in the remodeling efforts and caring for the animals and the garden just gave up right away.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's overwhelming. She's probably just like, I don't know. I can't fucking do this all by myself. This is crazy. These geese shit a lot. So much. Now, apparently, Kit claims that Joan spends much of her day hanging out across the street with a married neighbor. A guy, by the way. Yes. Not another married woman that they discuss their shit with.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Joan said that they were discussing business opportunities. You know how that goes, obviously. Lots of business. They needed to be discussed all day long, all the time, too, every day. Lots of new stuff coming up all the time. So this neighbor's name is Calvin Phillips, and he goes by Cal, and he lives across the street from their house there. He was also a 17-year military veteran.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And, yeah, I guess they wanted to offer one of their business ideas, Joan and Cal – was to offer concealed carry classes behind Cal's house because he has land so they can do shooting shit back there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No, no, no. You do it in the backyard. There should be no weapon involved. No, no. You do it in the backyard. All right. You do it in the backyard in rural Kentucky. Don't you know anything, Jimmy? Jesus Christ. Sorry I have to keep educating you about shit, Jimmy. No, that's what I mean. It's dangerous. The place where Cal's backyard is a little odd.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So Pembroke does not allow target shooting within city limits, but Cal's backyard crossed the county line.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So he was able to set up a shooting range just over the county line over here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Jesus Christ. They even held a class there. They had an instructor and everything like that. Joan took the class using a pistol that Kit had here. Cal's wife, Pam, worked at a bank in Hopkinsville, Kentucky. Kit always suspected that Joan and Cal were having an affair.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You know, because they're home during the day, and it took... Every day, all afternoon, they came up with, we could put a shooting range in your backyard. Yeah. What were you doing the rest of the time, guys? Right. Jesus Christ. So, September 5th, 2012, Kit asks Joan for a divorce. Oh, he initiates it. Yes, he initiates a divorce. Apparently...
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now, this is the only person, people who say this are Kit and Kit's daughter, okay? That during an argument regarding the divorce, Kit's daughter says she overheard Joan tell Kit that she would ruin his life and military career if he left her. Which, I mean, people have said worse than that. I mean, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But either way, they claim that she said that, but that's the only proof we have here. So she decides she wants to move out of the house since they're getting a divorce and shit. So she asked her neighbors, Cal and Pam, the couple across the street, to help her move out of the residence here. So Cal, by the way, is 59. His wife, Pam, is 58. Okay. Nice 60 year old people across the street.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
All of that and more, patreon.com slash crimeinsports. And you get a shout-out at the end of the show as well. Jimmy will mess your name all up while he really, really hopes to get it right. I wish. That said, disclaimer time. It's a comedy show, everybody. It's a comedy show. Now, we're comedians, so there's going to be jokes, but the murders are all too real. There's nothing...
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And you're like, get in the middle of my fucking marital strife. Would you?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Jesus. If this was like a hundred years ago, those people would be considered like elderly and you leave them alone. Not that that's elderly now, but it goes from that to, Hey guys, will you help me move out of my fucking house?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They want to know where their final resting place is going to be, and they're talking about it. Leave them alone. That's all.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's it. Yeah, they have no teeth left. That's how it was 100 years ago. So during this, Cal observes what he believed to be, because he was in the military, so he can recognize some shit. I wouldn't know my ass from my elbow with this stuff, but- Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a very cool place, Thrive Market.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yes, we are both looking to get into the healthy swing this year. The problem is I don't know what's in everything, and I don't know if even I'm qualified to even read the labels to know if that's good or that's bad. There's chemicals and things, and there's things floating around. I don't know what I'm doing out there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
One of my favorite features, and I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. Yeah, it's simple. You scan any item and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding these safe, healthy foods.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
For example, like I'm trying to get my protein intake up. for energy. I'm always moving around. I need stuff. And I love that you can filter their site by the high protein options. It's very cool. And you can personalize this portion and you can put filters on it and get ready. You should be ready for a junk free start to 2025.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Get ready for it and head to thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash smalltownmurder, thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January, it's a whole new slate. Clean. You bet. It is blank pages all the way around. Absolutely. And maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here. A little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
fade away by February, right after New Year's, think of therapy as an editorial partner. There you go. That's a good way to put it. Helping you write new chapters and creating the story of your life that you should have, that you want to have. That's what it's all about. The one you deserve. The one you deserve. And we can't say enough about therapy.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about a big time hero that we've just encountered. I'm a bread enthusiast. And with Hero Bread, you can focus on these health goals that you have that we all have trying to get ourselves better and still indulge in the luscious, wonderful, soft. Mmm, just so good. The fluffy goodness of bread that you love.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Made up about the murders. Nothing embellished for comedic effect. Nothing has to be embellished. There are crazy, crazy things that happen here. And we're going to say there's going to be murder and there's going to be jokes. Those two things go together. But it makes it a little more digestible, I think. None of this dark. Her head was cut off. That's a little disturbing.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But guilt-free with the Hero Bread. That's the thing. You like enjoying a nutritious breakfast wrap, avocado toast, grilled cheese, maybe with some soup on a cold, rainy day. Maybe a family burger night. Well, their products are delicious and flavorful. And they have ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and are high in fiber. They're pretty delicious. I really like the Hawaiian rolls.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They're good. Yeah. I got the Hawaiian rolls.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They're so, they're like, they still feel like buttery and stuff.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Oh, God, yeah. These are good for you. They're not bad at all. And the texture. This is the thing. I'm a nut with bread texture. I don't like different textures, but they have a really nice, good bread texture. It's delicious. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use the code smalltownmurder at checkout. That's the code smalltownmurder at h-e-r-o.co.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He observed what he believed to be classified military information located on a laptop computer and computer disks. Why he was firing up laptops and browsing through the files and looking through the disks, I have no fucking clue in the world. But that's...
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Real big sticker across the top of the laptop.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So Cal took the items and turned them over to the FBI. What? Yeah, that's a step. That's a big step he took.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Called the FBI on me for it. Yeah, for this. So, turns out there's some reason for that. Apparently, it was some shitty shit, man. Yeah. Now, Joan has some problems also here. They basically found out that... There's accusations from her ex-husband that she basically kidnapped her daughters from her ex-husband. That's what the accusations are. So that's what's going on.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now, at the same time, this is when Joan tells Cal and Pam that Kit has been physically abusive to both her and her son, Elijah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So there we go. She gave Cal photographs depicting the young man's injuries, which Cal then turned over to military police.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Jesus Christ. Don't smoke a joint in your back porch. Cal's going to be on the phone with the local cops immediately.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Man, I would say so. So... Cal tells another neighbor named Danzaro is his last name, that he wants a divorce from Joan. And all he said, I think she's been having an affair. Kit says that. Yeah, Kit says that. And everything like that. So they're talking to all their neighbors here. Now, the accusation she levels at him for child abuse get deeper than that. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Let's keep it a little lighter. Dance around the edges of it a little bit. That's how we do it. And how we do it is we never make fun of the victim or the victim's family. Why, James? Because we're assholes.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She also accuses him of molesting her daughters. OK. Yes. One of the daughters said that Kit had given them baths more than five times, but less than 10 times. The other daughter couldn't remember more than one or two times. Elijah, the son, said he witnessed the abuse on at least one occasion. The one daughter said she couldn't remember Elijah being present when she and her sister took baths.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The first daughter that we talked about said that Kit was clothed when he gave them baths, whereas Joan claimed that he took baths with the girls while fully nude, which would be obviously horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yes, and Alma said in one statement that Kit always used a washcloth when bathing them, and then in another statement she said sometimes he used his bare hands. She said, the one girl said that when she was about five, Kit would bathe her and her sister. This is from what she told investigators now. She claimed that he would put soap on a rag and insert his finger into her. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Elijah then said that he had witnessed the abuse, which this young lady said happened more than five times but less than ten. See, there's different versions of the story here, but there's always that number that comes up. Now, Elijah said that Kit would hit him with his hands, a belt, a whip, or anything else he could get his hands on. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He said that Kit would get angry for no reason and beat him up. He said that he never did his chores well enough for Kit and that, you know, Elijah said he'd always get a beating no matter what he had assigned to him. So there's pictures of this here. And Elijah said it happened when they lived in Rhode Island.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He said he and some friends accidentally knocked over a porta potty, which is disgusting.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But we're not scumbags. See how that works? There you go. So if that sounds good to you, we have a crazy show for you. Can't wait to get into it. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever go together, maybe we're not for you. But maybe we are. Either way, no complaining later. That said, I think it's time, everybody. Here we go. It's time to all clear the lungs. Let's go here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't know how you accidentally knock over a porta potty. Yeah, unless you did it with like a vehicle or something. There's no way to do it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No. A soccer ball doesn't knock that over. You know what I mean? Unless you had like a pickup truck you backed into it with or something. It's hard to knock those fuckers over.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I've seen people do it and they usually rock it from both sides.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's like a basketball hoop in your driveway. It's one of those with the sand and the liquid in the base. That's what it's like.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
There's a lot. They don't want it to be tipped over by the wind while you're shitting in it. That would be bad.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So he said when Kit found out about it, he made Elijah and his friends put the porta potty upright and clean up the mess, which seems extremely reasonable.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
If my kid knocked over a port-a-body, I'd be like, you fuckers are picking that up. I'm not touching it. Getting some gloves and some paper towels and you're going to work here. Sorry. He said he then made Elijah take a shower after the show, which, I mean, he was covered in shit. So that's, again, reasonable so far at this point.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
After the shower, while Elijah says he was dressed only in boxer shorts, Kit started beating him with a belt. He told investigators that Kit hit him with the leather and the buckle end of the belt, both. Elijah also told investigators after the beating, Kit made him cut the grass with scissors.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That'll take, they have acres. That'll take a minute, I would say. My question is, do you make him get a comb in there, too, and do it so it's even?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Willy nilly hacked up like somebody who's sad at 2 in the morning. Which one?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Oh, there we go. The thinners? Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Love those thinning scissors. Those are great. According to Elijah, he got a lot of abuse from Kit, including whippings from a Roman whip made of leather straps with stones attached to the strips ends. That's what he claims. Wow. Joan later said that the Roman whip had metal burrs on the ends of each strip, not stone.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Isn't that what that is? That shouldn't make your dick at all hard. No.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's crazy. No, that's horrible. Another instance of abuse, according to Elijah, occurred when he got caught stealing a necklace from his mother to give to a girl, which says dumb teenager shit here. Kit took him down to the basement where he essentially he essentially treated him like he was Marcellus Wallace going to the pawn shop.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He tied him up with duct tape and blindfolded him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
uh-huh okay uh after 20 minutes kit returned he said he left him there about 20 minutes he returned and punched him in the stomach he said kit then used a knife to cut him loose and made him stand in the corner until his mom told him he didn't have to stand in the corner any longer okay elijah also said that kit always wanted to wrestle come on let's wrestle and that the wrestling would often end with him in a choke hold and not able to breathe
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to Kentucky this week. Yes. Pembroke, Kentucky is where we will be. Pembroke. Pembroke. Pembroke. Pembroke. And this is in western Kentucky. Only over on the west side there. It's about an hour to Nashville.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
come on let's wrestle so i can choke you so what you're saying is you lost a lot yeah he didn't do very well he said that martin referred to the wrestling as wrestlemania which is great it's wrestlemania time motherfucker no i don't want to have wrestlemania main event bitch let's go me and you me and you cutting promos on him
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Wow, he described one occasion where he had purple dots all over his face due to a lack of oxygen.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, petechia, like if you're strangled. And one of the young ladies here, the daughters also added that they would all get smacked if the daughters would get smacked if they tried to intervene in this at all. Well, I mean, yeah, it's against the rules. You can't hit them with a chair on the outside of the ring. The ref isn't going to call for that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You can't grab for that when I'm going to the ropes to come off with a clothesline. This is crazy. Obviously. Obviously.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The fuck, man? Obviously, you know, nothing funny, but it's crazy. Anyway, the idea of I'm going to have WrestleMania with my stepson and choke him out.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
kick his little girl managers away as they try to run in the ring is fucking crazy.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's right. He's cutting promos. So Elijah's first account here, like I said, the port-a-potty incident. Now he says that he was beaten with a belt after the port-a-potty incident, but Jones said it was a bamboo stick. And Elijah later said that it was a belt and a bamboo stick. Okay, now Elijah said his mom took pictures of his bruises the day of the beating, and that's what he said.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Joan will testify later that she took photos the day after the beating.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So they're going to say, obviously, the beating didn't happen because they're not on the same page of a day of and day after. So obviously, they both made it up, clearly. That's his stance on the whole thing here. In one version, Elijah said the beating lasted three minutes. In another, he said it lasted 20 minutes. The duct tape incident.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Elijah said his hands and feet were duct taped and his eyes were covered with what he thought was also duct tape. He said that he was sitting on the bed and that Major Martin came into the room and punched him in the stomach. Elijah then claimed Kit returned a few minutes later, removed the tape of the knife. Joan's version was slightly different.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She said, quote, My daughter Alma came running into the kitchen saying, Daddy's hitting Elijah. We had a basement and she told me Elijah was down in the basement. I ran down there and looked in the guest room, which was dark. I noticed Elijah was in the room on his knees with his wrists duct taped behind his back.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I also noticed Elijah was duct taped around his mouth and had two pieces of tape covering his eyes. Elijah was sitting in the dark on his knees, duct taped. And of course, I freaked out. Yeah, that's as anybody would. Alma was just crying and her eyes were swollen. I then ran to get the scissors and ran down and cut the duct tape off him. He immediately started crying.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So I stood him up and walked him upstairs. Now, Kit's Elijah said Kit came in, punched him and cut him loose. And in a sworn statement, Jones said Elijah told her that Kit kept coming into the room and hitting him, implying that it happened more than once. So they're taking slight discrepancies and saying it obviously didn't happen. That's their thing, which is...
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You know, a crazy abusive night a couple of years beforehand. I feel like maybe things get a little whatever. So a little hazy. He found an email that Joan sent to herself on May 2nd, 2011. The subject line read, Elijah tipped over the portable toilet. Email contained four images and the following message.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Pictures of what Kit did to him after he got in trouble for tipping over a porta potty with a neighboring boy near our home, which is what neighboring means. OK. Here are the pictures.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
If that's real, that is fucking horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He's got it all over his face. His back.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
His back looks like he was fucking starred in Roots. Like he's in Django. It looks fucking crazy. He's got a Kunta Kinte back right now. This is fucking bonkers.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's kind of the nearest big city to the area is Nashville. about an hour 15 in the other direction to Benton, Kentucky, which was our last Kentucky episode. Taking in the strays. That one was, I remember that one. That was a crazy one. This is in Christian County. I have nothing subtle about that area code, but it was named after a guy. Area code 270 and 364, both of them in this town.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Just say Toby, Elijah. Jesus Christ, don't take the beating anymore.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I can't imagine it. No, no. It's arms, face. The back is horrifying. And the arms and the face.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
were hit because he was swinging so wildly at his back that he just tagged him in the face that's what it looked like it almost looks like a buckle mark up there I don't know so Joan said she deleted the pictures off the camera then sent them to herself in an email so Kit wouldn't find them on the camera and get mad at her
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So anyway, Joan also tells investigators that Kit would slap her across the face whenever she tried to intervene when he was abusing Elijah. She said he would choke her to the point of nearly losing consciousness, which seems to be a routine thing. Common theme here. She claimed that Kit would threaten to kill her if she ever left him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, according to Joan, also, here are some more accusations from Joan once this all comes out and the divorce is on the table here. According to Joan, while in Germany, Kit once held one of the little girls by her foot and dangled her off the balcony of a three-story marble staircase and laughed. He was just doing a Michael Jackson impersonation. That's all. Yeah, that's hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said he she said he would whip the other little girl with the Roman style whip. He would take baths nude with the girls, telling them they had to get comfortable with nudity because they were in Europe and there was a lot of nudity in Europe.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No. Just because you can have your tits out at the beach doesn't mean there should be a cock floating in your fucking baby's bath water. I don't think so. Totally different thing there, guys.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
wow uh joan also told a story about kit punching eliza in the face elijah in the face so hard that it knocked his glasses off and then she said kit stomped on his glasses with his foot and crushed them which is like jokes on you asshole now you gotta buy me new glasses you just made yourself a bill you moron when i go to school and i can't fucking see they're gonna go they're gonna send a letter home going get this kid glasses he can't see
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That was stupid of you. Joan also told the investigators that she took the concealed carry class at Cal's house because she feared for her life and wanted to protect herself from Kit. Joan said, quote, I just felt trapped. I felt like I could knock it out and it was hopeless. In the beginning of the relationship, I thought he just needed help or counseling, but as time went on, I wanted out.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I just wanted to get us out. So the agent asked her if she could expand on her fears and she said, I was afraid he was going to kill me and I was afraid he was going to kill or seriously hurt one of my children. My son was trying to protect me as he got older and I was afraid he was going to get seriously injured or killed as time went on.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She claimed that when they lived in Germany, he always walked around naked. I'm just being German. You're lucky I'm not pooping on stuff. It's cool.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Especially when that's all you're wearing. Yeah. Just that with your cock dangling down. It's not good.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This is a tiny town, by the way. Talk about another one of these towns that's under 1,000 people. Those are small towns. This town was settled in 1836 and named for someone who does not exist. This was named after a fictional character. It was named after Pembroke Somerset Esquire.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Exactly. My own version of Lederhosen. So Elijah tells a story about how Kit injured his foot. He said that he was in a barn and didn't put a lid on a container correctly. Elijah did. And he said that Kit got angry, pushed him down, and scraped his foot on the barrel. The picture that they all paint of Kit was that he's a lunatic and that he would basically just be horrible for them.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said that he treated his biological children well, but not them. Some evil stepdad shit they're claiming here. They said that the biological kids would get new clothes and nice things while they're these kids had to shop at Goodwill. He's like, well, they're not my kids. I ain't fucking buying them clothes.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So she the one daughter said when she started her period kit called her fat, ugly and worthless. and that Elijah said he was often called an idiot, a loser, a four-eyes, and a dork.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Four-eyes. Yeah. Hey, four-eyes, how'd you like that? It's bad enough going to school. You got to come home and you're like, oh, fuck, this is worse than gym class. Jesus Christ, man. He's going to start pegging me with a kickball next. Just fucking over and over again. At least I can fight those kids.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He's a fucking major in the army. He wants to choke me out.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No shit. Elijah said that Kit had a friend who was a police officer. He said that on the night of the big argument that Kit's friend said that he didn't see any signs of abuse, this police officer. Elijah said he and his mom had large red marks across her face. Or he said his mom had large red marks across her face.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And one of the daughters added that Kit threatened to kill her that night if she said anything to the police. So these are the accusations that are leveled against him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They're fucking heavy. So during all this, by the way, she moves out and all that kind of stuff. He has another girlfriend. So at one point, her name is Laura. They interview Laura. The police go to interview Laura to do a welfare check on her to make sure that she's not full of black eyes and belt marks and shit like that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Laura told the investigators she was aware of the allegations against him, and Laura told the cops she coaxes her kids to lie about things that happened.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. But I guess the investigators tried to question, basically kept asking her if she was in an abusive relationship and kept asking and asking. Now, there's this book that is very much a Kits the Man book, basically. And they say that the cops harassed her to the point of badgering her to see if she was in an abusive relationship. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's like you're being extorted by the mafia. You ask him the first time, the mafia extorting you. No, no, no, no. Vinny's my pal. No, we're great. No, we're tight.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, I lend him a couple of bucks once in a while, but that's just because Vinny gambles. Oh, okay.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Well, no. Well, actually there was, but not after I started loaning Vinny money. Then they all stopped.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You got to keep going with it. So they asked about Kit's temper and whether she had ever witnessed him losing it. She replied she'd never seen Kit lose his temper with her or anyone else. They showed her the picture of the alleged abuse of Elijah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
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Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
A character in Jane Porter's 1803 novel Thaddeus of Warsaw by Dr. Lunsford. That one missed me. Yeah. I didn't realize it either. It was on my list, and I just never got to it. It's one of those books.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And her quote was, I'm sorry, she said that the agent told her women don't often want to admit they're in an abusive relationship at the time or they miss early abusive behavior. Let me show you this. Laura said she was a nurse and knew the signs of abuse. She told them that she had endured endured 17 years of verbal abuse by her previous husband.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
and would not allow herself or her kids to be around that kind of abuse again. And they talked to her kids, and I guess her kids, one of them described Kit as cool and said the only time he ever heard Kit yell was at the dogs. The other kids said that she felt safe, didn't have any concerns, and that Kit never abused or touched her inappropriately. OK, so there's that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Anyway, they said that while they while they looked around here, they didn't find any Roman whip anywhere, by the way. Well, they just you know, they didn't have like a search warrant looking through the house. Yeah. And Laura told them she didn't know anything about bamboo sticks. Yeah, that's it. So Kit now he complains. He says Joan abandoned her. That's abandoned him. That's what it was. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. He says that basically Kit learned that I guess when he was in Iraq, he learned that she wasn't getting along well with the other army wives. And before leaving Germany, Kit came home from work to find what he claimed was total chaos with Joan cussing at Elijah and beating him and the girls screaming. And that's when he wanted a divorce at that point.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's when he first started wanting one because she was out of out of her mind. So September 11th, 2012, this is when Kit learns about the photographs that the police have and that she has with Elijah. So this is six days after he asked her for a divorce and seven days before there was an emergency protective order hearing. Right.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now, in his statement, Kit mentioned the photographs in a statement to a family advocacy representative. He said, or this is the representative, said, I had a follow-up appointment. Oh, no, this is him. This is Kit. I had a follow-up appointment with LCDR Belgrave of the Family Advocacy Program.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I was hoping this meeting might provide some information as to the health and safety of my stepchildren as I had requested, or maybe a follow-on to my wife Joan's mental health. Instead, I learned that my wife had escalated her attacks and slander on me by claiming I had abused my children.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She even produced photos of my stepson, EJ, apparently depicted extensive scratches or burns across his back. I had never seen these photos before, nor those alleged injuries. I was shocked by what they apparently showed and the accusation that I had done this. So, yeah, he said that his first thought was they told him these injuries occurred while you were living in Rhode Island.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And he said, oh, I think I know what those were. That's not abuse. Those are rug burns from his jujitsu lessons I was giving him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Thaddeus started it. First of all, Thaddeus of Warsaw? Would you read a book called Thaddeus of Warsaw right now? Nope. Who knows? Maybe it's a literary classic. We're dumb, so we don't know anything about that kind of stuff. So Dr. Lunsford Lindsay is the guy who named the town after this. He was a local store owner. I assume they sold books there at the store he ran.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
On his face? Yeah, just all over himself. The rug burns from a jiu-jitsu lesson. What kind of rug are you wrestling on? Hey, get a mat, asshole, number one. Grab a mat, why don't you?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This is crazy. He said Elijah also practiced with a high school wrestling team for several months when they first moved to Pembroke. Another possibility Kit offers was that Joan may have been the one who caused the injuries. Okay. He said, the only time I've ever witnessed a serious incident with my stepson was when I returned home from work one day while stationed in Germany.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I heard yelling and screaming from the backyard and thought someone was hurt. When I ran around the corner, I saw my son EJ, which it's J-E. It's Justin Elijah. It's so weird. Okay. On the second rung of the ladder about a foot off the ground.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's Justin Elijah, and he goes by Elijah or EJ. Don't get it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Whatever. His sister Alma was on the sub roof of the main roof above him, and my wife Joan was beating EJ with a broom or a stick across the back and shoulders, yelling obscenities such as fucking pussy and fucking coward. Wow. I yelled at her, but she didn't seem to notice I was there. I didn't know how long she'd been doing this, but I had to restrain her to get her to stop.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Imagine being the Germans what they thought of all this if this happened. Like, fucking America. Just what we all thought, everybody. Holy shit. Nope, no, it's Jerry Springer. Yeah, I know, we got it out here. Same thing. I was then finally able to ask what happened. She told me Alma had gone to retrieve a toy stuck on the roof and then was afraid to come back down, so she told EJ to get her.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I don't know why Joan didn't do it. EJ was apparently also very afraid of heights and could not climb the ladder past the second rung, so Joanie had gotten violently upset and started beating him. He says, I mention this only as a statement of fact, not to counter my allegations. Oh, no, no. Just like to give all the information.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now, here's the problem with Joan. Mm-hmm. It comes out when they file for divorce and everything. She is not. She's already married. What? She never divorced her husband, Carlos. She's still married to him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
A polygamist would be if she was living with both of them. But she's a bigamist anyway.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She's a bigamist here, so there's going to be bigamy charges against her for that. She's going to plead guilty to charge of bigamy and granted a pre-drial diversion. I'm not going to put her in fucking prison for that, but yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now, the military is going to charge Kit with various offenses relating to the mishandling of classified information from the laptop and the disks and physical abuse of the boy as well. Now, there is a court-martial scheduled. December 15, 2015, there is a court-martial hearing scheduled here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And Cal is supposed to testify at that court-martial hearing about finding everything here because that's part of it is where they got the shit from.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Absolutely. Cal and Pam made several statements to individuals indicating that their fear that Kit would come and kill them or if anything happened to them, tell the cops to look at Kit because we're going to testify against him. And at best, he's going to lose his pension, which he's not going to be fucking happy about.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Very upset. So after a bunch of continuances, court martial proceedings scheduled for December 2015. Now, November the 18th, 2015, less than a month away from these court-martial proceedings, Pam, Cal's wife Pam, left for work around 7 a.m. Now, around noon, she was informed that a washing machine she had ordered could not be delivered to her home because no one was there, which is a nightmare.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. The doctor has a store, which I mean, maybe he was a pharmacist, too. Yeah. Who knows?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
If you order appliances, you have no idea when they're coming.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But you have no idea when they're coming, and then when they do come, you not only have to be there, you have to be, like, ready with the door open and the place open for them to put it, and it's all prepared.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Are you fucking Jesus Christ? How is that possible?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
How the hell am I supposed to? Is there a choice here? Run it with no plug. What are we talking about?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Is this a solar washer? Do I put it out in the yard for a few hours and then it's got enough juice to do a load? What do I do? How does this work?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So the county is named for Colonel William Christian, who is a native of Augusta County, Virginia. He's not even from here. who was a veteran of the Revolutionary War. He settled near Louisville in 1785 and was killed by Native Americans in southern Indiana in 1786. So he survived the British, but not the Comanche. So reviews of this town. Okay. Here we go. Here's four stars.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Give me the plug, please. So she was informed the washing machine was there. She was concerned, so she left work earlier than usual around 5 p.m. Because she usually leaves at 6, but she's leaving at 5, even though it was at noon when the call came. Now, Cal's usually home. So that's why she's like, what are you talking about? There's nobody home. Cal's home.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So she left at 5 to go check on Cal because she hasn't heard from him. And this is 2015, so people are always incessantly texting each other and hasn't heard from him, and no one could deliver the washing machine. She arrived at her residence and called her friend Francis Marlene LaRock here. Yeah. She said, hey, Francis, have you seen Cal?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So Francis said she had called Cal earlier in the day to check on his sick dog, but nobody answered. What a nice person. She called to check on the sick dog. A text would have been sufficient, I think, there. Don't call me for that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's not thoughtful to call someone out of the blue for no reason. That's not thoughtful. It's like giving someone a bill for something. That's not thoughtful. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
text if they want to call they'll they'll i'll tell you all about it i'll call you or something but don't just assume they want to get on the phone and talk to you i think older people might be different though good afternoon let's talk let's talk about depressing shit yeah i think older people are different with they're okay with getting phone calls yeah i think it's like 55 and over are okay with getting phone calls 55 and under is like you called me for what how could this this could have been accomplished way easier in a text why are you doing this
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. Text me and see if I'm busy first.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's all. No? Okay. There you go. Just saved us both an awkward conversation.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Weird, right? So Marlene also said she had gone to the Phillips residence around 2 p.m. and found the front door open, which was unusual, but she assumed Cal was working out in the back field and just left the door open. So Pam told Marlene to hold the line because she saw something. Now she's at home, Pam. She's looking around.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now Marlene heard a scream as if someone had been startled and then silence. OK, a scream and then silence. And that was it. Never heard from her again. So Marlene returned. She gets in the car to go drive over and check on Pam, and she found the front door open, but no one there. No one answering. Yelling, hello, no one's answering shit.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So you go, okay, well, they're around. And that's what she figured. She figured, well, they must have come home or whatever the fuck. I don't know. That's what they do.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She just left it alone at that point. She figured everything's fine, so whatever. So that morning at 2.15 a.m., okay, so middle of the night, a nearby neighbor named John Homic was awakened by the sound of two explosions or gunshots coming from somewhere on his farm, he said. Uh-huh. He thought the sounds were possibly caused by trespassing hunters, so he didn't investigate any.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He's like, I'm not going to go out there and get shot by idiots at 3 in the morning. That's stupid. So later that morning, he went outside and saw a car smoldering in his field.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, a car burned to shit in this field.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Fucking, they got themselves a Pontiac Grand Am, it looks like.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It ain't even in season. Let's go. It ain't Pontiac season. We got to get out of here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
God damn it. I said I was after Mustangs, but damn it, this is ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Let's go. Move it. So the police look inside the vehicle when they get there and discover that there are two sets of human remains inside the burnt vehicle. Two bodies. Two burnt up bodies inside this vehicle. So the vehicle is registered to Cal and Pam Phillips. OK, now here we go. All right. There's more to this as well, by the way, here, as we'll talk about quite a lot more.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
There's only two reviews. There's less than a thousand people. So four stars. Pembroke is a very nice town. Good way to start it. Very quiet with friendly neighbors. I wish their pest control service was open on the weekends. As we woke up to a viper in our bedroom one day and no one to help us. Okay, this place is hell on earth now. A viper in your bedroom?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So the cops head over to Cal's here. They head over to Cal's residence where they discover they because they get that call and they have the resident, the registration. So they go to the house when they get to the house. They find that Cal is at home.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But he's dead. Oh, shit. His remains are in the cellar among more signs of a fire being set around him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Either that or Cal killed whoever that was and then went home and tried to off himself and burn the house down.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So police continued to search the property and they located, they discovered blood in the backyard next to a distinctive World War II era pistol, which was known to belong to the Phillips neighbor, Ed Danzaro, who's 63 years old.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
In their yard. Subsequent testing indicates the blood in the yard belongs to Ed Danzaro, not to Cal.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This is crazy, right? Yeah. Pam's blood was also discovered on the back door and in the yard. They discover that the remains are super burnt in the car. They get them in. They finally process and figure out that the fucking bodies are Pam and Ed Danzaro. In the car. And then Cal is dead in the basement.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Fucking crazy. So, their injuries, by the way, you'll probably want to know about here, because it's a lot. Cal suffered five gunshot wounds. Wow. and blunt force trauma to different locations of his body. This is fucking wild. They said there are two kinds of gunshot wounds, penetrating and perforated. A penetrating wound means that the bullet remained in the body.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
A perforated wound means that it Through and through. Through and through. So Calvin had both types of those. They said as for the blunt force trauma injuries, they said that the injuries were to the face and upper and lower extremities. So that's the whole body as far as I'm concerned, or at least legs and arms and face.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
In response here, they also say the trauma injuries occurred antemortem or before death. It's important because it indicated that he was beaten before he was shot.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said they asked if the injuries could have been caused by a butt of a gun, and they said they could have. That's what the doctor says. The facial injuries, though, occurred near the time of death. They were paramortem. And they said this lends credence to the possibility that all the blunt force injuries may have occurred due to the victim being tossed down the cellar stairs while still alive.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Wow. OK, blood on the stairs and a tooth discovered under his body also suggest that he may have been dumped down the stairs face first, possibly by, you know, anybody throwing him down there. Who knows? So. One finding that wasn't fully explained related to the, I guess, the bullets here. There's different types, I guess, different bullets, trocars. Is that how you say it? I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They're designed to separate after the bullet hit the target, such as skin.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. I guess they said Calvin had three entrance injuries like that to the left side of his chest, indicating that the bullets had separated before entering the body. Oh, God. One possible scenario is that at least one shot fired at him hit something else first, causing them to separate. Okay. He sustained three penetrating gunshot wounds to his chest. They were still in the body.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Other ones were in the neck and the right clavicle. They were perforated, meaning they exited. The bullet bases from the two perforated gunshots were never recovered, and they don't know. So they don't know if the shots were fired outside, inside. They don't know why.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said the trocar, I guess that's how you say it, entry wounds also support the possibility of one bullet striking something like anything, a window or mirror or anything like that, breaking off from the main bullet. The gunshot wound to the neck entered Calvin's left ear but exited the right side lower on the neck. There's also a smaller exit wound where the trocars exited.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Not even like, you know, I was in the yard. In my bedroom. You wake up, it's sitting on your chest staring at you. That's what I picture. Like Henry Hill waking up with a gun in his face. This is a viper.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So we're talking from above. The trajectory of the bullet suggests that they were fired from above. This could also indicate someone standing over Calvin as he shot. Any of that shit is possible. So Pam Phillips and Ed here and Ed Denzero. Here we go. Almost Jerry Springer. Dr. Jeffrey Springer enters the equation here. Medical examiner for Kentucky here. He has his brother.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He examined Pam and Ed. They said both bodies had been consumed in the automobile fire. The doctor was able to examine the remains that were recovered from the front passenger seat and the rear passenger seat of the car.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Front and back. So they were driven there and no one was put in the driver's seat. Yeah. It's not even trying to act like they did this themselves.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, yeah. Interesting. So, this is a fucking mess, obviously. An absolute mess.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
gunshots as well same thing yeah gunshots gunshots and burning yeah multiple gunshot wounds so okay uh they were there was a 22 they recovered fragments from the bodies of ed and pam and confirmed they'd both been shot multiple times with a 22 caliber firearm okay Okay, now, several hairs were recovered from the vehicle, from Danzaro's vehicle. Okay, not the one they were burning in.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This had been located between his residence and Pam's burnt vehicle, his car. Somewhere in the middle. Yeah. While certain hairs were consistent with a sample taken from Kit... Only one hair was suitable for definitive DNA testing, and it, I guess, apparently didn't match Kit. Now, projectile fragments recovered from the bodies of Pam and Ed confirm they've been shot multiple times, like we said.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
um wow and i don't know really how you can take a star away from the town because the pest control business is closed on the weekends that has nothing to do with the town and it's weird it's it's a it's more than a pest it's more than a pest yeah viper call animal control maybe then probably i would think there's something a poisonous loose snake in your house i don't know uh here's four stars i enjoy being in the country
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Kit owns several .22 caliber firearms as well. Forensic testing was inconclusive, meaning that the examiner could neither confirm nor exclude the possibility that the recovered fragments were linked to his .22 caliber firearms. There was a lot of damage to the bullets. So that's hard. Cal was killed by a unique G2 RIP .45 caliber bullets. That's what he was killed with.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Unique bullets fired from a Glock. He suffered several gunshot wounds and blunt force trauma. Like we said, the police found a 45 caliber Glock pistol when they searched Kit's home. So when they search is safe at home and forensic testing of the fragments was inconclusive. Again, no ballistics on this. So nothing happens. No arrests are made.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Nothing matches it. Well, they don't know if it matches. They can't tell if it matches it. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah, if the fragments are too fucked up, they don't know. If they say it could have been, they can tell you whether it could have been or couldn't have been.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
you deny exclude what you're looking for exclude so the Phillips property was processed for evidence on three separate occasions November 19th November 30th and December 4th 2015 they keep coming back to process to look for more shit now a neighbor named Mark Harris lived next door to Danzaro and across the street from Kit and Pam and he said in 2015 he could sense something was wrong on the street caught a weird vibe on the street
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. Yeah. This is what Mark said. Mark said that he went and talked to or he was talking to to Cal and said he told me about a week before this happened. I need to stay away from here. There's something going on bad. Cal told him that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So now the neighbor, his theory is that Kit went to Cal Phillips' home, killed him in the basement, and then Ed and Pam were collateral damage. Yeah, it seems like he waited for fucking Pam to get there. Right. And then nailed her. He probably hid, like, you know, and then fucking popped out because that's where a scream would come from, then silence.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She probably saw Cal, screamed, holy shit, and then that was that. He went out and got her at that point.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's possible. Yeah, Ed might have come over. Who the hell knows?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
A little much. Totally. This guy said, I don't know what was said, took him to the basement of the house, maybe found him in there, and he walked in and shot him. So, who knows? Now... They talked to Elijah, the son here, Joan's son, and he's saying that Kit's a fucking monster. He said in public he'd be the nicest person you'd ever meet, but behind closed doors, phew, he was a monster.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Things to do are reliant on your own proactive participation, which means there is shit to do. That's what that means. You have to come up with shit.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, that's what people do. He says that they're not going to be like, I love beating the shit out of my kids out in public. At work, they usually don't say that. So they also said, do you think that your stepfather did this? And he said he's 100% because of the person he was being behind closed doors. Okay. So a private investigator working for the defense team in the court-martial case now.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This private investigator had interviewed Cal Phillips two weeks before the murder. In the interview, the detective was convinced that something would turn the entire case on his head. He said something that nobody else knew, that Cal Phillips would have flipped on Joan and testified for Kit. That's what he says. But there's no proof of that. Right.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The private investigator wrote in an email to police, it's the professional opinion of Mary Martins and I that Calvin Phillips was murdered in order to prevent his testimony on behalf of the defense. Think about that. Witness statements strongly point to Joan Harmon as the person most likely to benefit from his silence. So here is what their theory is.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You got to be like eight year olds without an iPad. Like you got to make some shit up and figure it out.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Joan did this because if Apparently, if she was alive and he basically she could have gotten a really good settlement from the military about the abuse shit, she could have gotten a settlement from the military. That's what that's what his defense attorney saying rather than it's Kit who did it because he doesn't want them testifying against him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They're saying Cal was going to testify actually for Kit and Joan found out and killed three people over it. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yes. That's exactly what it is. So Kit said that she knew that was her last chance to ruin my career. She couldn't do it. Now, by the way, the evidence against him is there's all sorts of physical evidence about the laptop shit. Is the military still looking into that? The CDs labeled secret in the laptop computer.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Also, a thumb drive and an HP personal computer that Kit had given to Joan also turned in for analysis. And also, Kit said this is when he was brought in and questioned about the laptop. He said, I do not know how the FBI gained sensitive information that has my name associated with it. I may have been hacked in the past.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You're going to make a game out of this. Do it. It is quiet and calming when the sun goes down, yet close enough to many activities. Would certainly do all over again. Really? If I died and they said, you want to go back? Only if I'm getting sent to Pembroke, is what they said.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
There we go. He literally went to hacked. That's the last bastion of a truly desperate jerk-off that's been caught doing something bad.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
OK, I was hacked, man. If that is not the case, I believe that my ex wife and he put wife in parentheses in quotes, by the way, not ex part wife. Like she was never his wife. May have found sensitive items on some damaged discs she stole along with most of the items from my house and then turn them into the police as a part of her ongoing plan to ruin me out of spite.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She did this even though I provided sole support to her and her children for nine years and she was the one that had an affair. I have consistently had to defend myself against accusations made by my ex-wife. And then in parentheses, that I later learned was a bigamist and that I was not even legally married to since I asked for a divorce in September of 2012.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I was forced to call the police when she became violent. She vowed to ruin my career and has utilized every venue to do so. She's continued to harass me and has even recently vandalized my vehicles. She has accused me of abuse and then... Later abuse toward her children charges, which I have been cleared despite her documentary purge or documented perjury.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I've continually had to defend myself in a guilty until proven innocent system for the last 10 months, as well as attend family advocacy training and, um, and fat that would be, which is hilarious and have my name listed on a fat blacklist that is used to check soldiers backgrounds prior to come to promotion or command assignment. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He said when Kit learned about the charges against him, he still held out hope he could prevail in a court martial trial. Kit's attorneys, though, they informed him that he was facing serious charges that could end his career and put him behind bars for a very long time. So the court-martial hearing here, he is convicted of charges here. We'll talk about this here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
One of the guys involved in the trial, one of the lawyers said it was one of the most heated trials I've ever been in in the military. It's his charges that he has classified information and sexually assaulted a child.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, they're charging him with it. They have little girls who said he touched them. So, I mean, got to do it. He was basically found not guilty of some charges, and then he was convicted of mishandling classified information and simple assault. So he gets cleared of the major charges, and they give him lesser shit for this. And he was sentenced to 90 days in prison. OK, that's what he got.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Fine. People in this town, 791. Wow. Very small town. That's extremely small. More male than female people here, which is not usual. That's usually the other way around. Median age is 38. It's right around the national average. Otherwise, it's all 56 percent married, which is well above the national average. Also, a lot of people it's weird.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He was also dismissed from the army as well. And also forfeiture of all paying allowances and a reprimand. That's all shit out of luck. So now he became a huge fucking case for certain groups out there. Big time. I mean, lots of these groups. Basically, these, quote, men's rights groups were getting involved to try to help him out. That was a big deal.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He's a giant cause for these people to this day. It's a huge cause. So, now... Carlos and Joan were finally actually divorced on April 20th, 2016. Oh, they figured it out. They figured it out. Yeah. Oh yeah. Very nice. Let's sign this. Whoops. Yeah. So kit here after his 90 days, he heads to North Carolina. Where he is going to get a job as a commercial airline pilot. Really?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
American fucking airlines hired this man. Really? American. American Airlines, just everybody out there so you know. Simple assault. Okay. American Airlines, we hire anybody. Yeah. It's actually one of their subsidiaries, PSA Airlines.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I got a PSA for you. Don't fly that airline. I don't know where the fuck it is.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Well, no, because I think he's going to end up in Norfolk. This is going to be his home base. It's a weird thing. So, yeah, the PSA is wholly owned subsidiary of American Airlines and operates an all-jet American Eagle fleet. So he began working there. He wasn't the oldest pilot in his new higher class. There was guys older than him, and he was almost 50. So, yeah, he liked that. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Basically, he said he didn't like the small jet was less responsive and nimble than an Apache attack helicopter.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The American Eagle fucking 930 to Palm Springs isn't fucking as nimble as an attack helicopter with missiles on it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
A plane that was built in 1987. It's the tiny ones with the two in one, James. That's what they are. The ones built in 1987 that have a fucking welded shut ashtray on the fucking thing. You'd think those aren't as nimble as an Apache attack helicopter, huh?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Weird. He said, yeah, the Apache had full color screens with 3D map presentations because people were shooting at you.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, they fucking assume that the the PSA flight to St. Louis isn't going to be under attack. Probably.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They assume it's just going to be a, you know, run out of ginger ale at the most.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He's like, can I just wear night vision so I feel cool? Let me just put the goggles on while I fly.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Rocket Money. It's the start of a new year. It's the perfect time to get organized, set your goals, prioritize what matters most. And for me, top priority is getting myself together here. Financial wellness, doing that, which that feels important.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So he had a choice of pilot bases and he chose Norfolk, Virginia, which is a two hour drive from Roanoke. He said he liked the small town feel and he found a hotel near the water and all that kind of shit. So he was a reserve pilot. Then he could bid on four day trips, which would limit the amount of time of commuting. So he could only commute once and then go back.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now, during this, a couple of years have gone by since the Phillipses and Ed Denzero have been murdered. And the families are getting pissed off here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You usually don't see a very high marriage rate and a very high single with children rate. But this this town figures it out.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Like, what happened? And as we found out in other cases on this show where the worst was the Brighton, New York one where the cops were like, I don't know. We didn't have the family in here banging on our desks saying, please solve the crime. So it just goes to the back burner.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We need motivation, guys. Come on. Come in and motivate us. Fuck you.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. If your family members murdered and they don't arrest somebody immediately, you got to bother them or they will just give up. That's how it works. So the Kentucky attorney general said in a video statement that his office has now picked up the case after after the Phillips's son came into the office. He said about two years ago, Matt Phillips came into my office.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He talked about losing both of his parents in a brutal murder that also took the life of a third individual. He was worried that the case was stalled and was worried that justice would not come. So, yeah, he said that of the whole thing, Phillips had he told CNN, by the way. that his father had evidence that was harmful to kit's military case.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And he also said that kit was shamefully kicked out of the military. Uh, he said, my father had a lot to do with that. And I think we should all be Frank thankful for that. Frankly, that this guy isn't fucking flying attack helicopters. Uh, Wow. So he said he, meaning his dad, handed over pictures of a sub-16-year-old boy that had been bitten, choked violently multiple times.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Fifty fifty six percent are married and 25 percent are single with children. So incredible. That's wild. So that says that what? Twenty five percent are neither less than 25 percent or 20 percent are neither married nor have children.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He also told CNN he said that his dad also handed over discs that had classified information and should have never left an Army post. Now, Kitt's lawyer, he said that, no, no, no, they got it totally backwards. Cal was going to he was going to defend us, actually. So no, no motivation. He said that. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He said if their motive is that he killed Calvin Phillips because he was going to testify in his upcoming court martial. Well, that was nothing further from the truth. Now, there's cameras everywhere, by the way, now. Yeah. 2016 cameras are everywhere.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Just to make sure, because it was secured and they wanted to make sure that nobody was breaking into it or anything. So they secured cameras. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We should have had them in the first place. So several months later, Diana notices a metallic object under some wood on the breezeway to the back porch. There. This is on the camera. So they went out and looked. She showed the object to Matt, who recognized it and realized it was a shell casing.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So he called the cops. Yeah. And yeah, police had concerns regarding the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the evidence, how you found it, whatever. But they did it. And in 2018, testing reveals the casing was fired from a 45. Kit Martin's Glock 45. Hey. his gun too. They finally had some shit. Yup. They got the casing and it worked out very well.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We don't have that, but we have his gun, his casing.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
A lot of his motive. Also, this is fucking great. One, there's some issues here. They have phone data records that show on November 18th, 2015, which was the, you know, early morning, late night time that this murder happened. Uh, Kit set his alarm on his phone to wake him up at 1.10 a.m. Whoa. Remember, the murders happened at 2 something in the morning.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's when the explosion was heard and gunshots heard and the farm property.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's very low. Race in this town, 78.5% white, 18.2% black, and then pretty much zeros through the rest of the way there. 2.6% Hispanic. That's about it. Religion in this town, 50-50 is the national average here. It's 54.6%. And the definite... Mother load here goes to the Baptists, 33.8% Baptist. Baptists, as we know, are the Catholics of the South. They're everywhere here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, OK, obviously that the state is saying that he used that time to sneak out of the front door of his home, move the bodies and burn the vehicle that they were found in. Do all that shit. That's what they say. Now, well, his explanation is gold when he testifies. We'll get to that. OK. May 11th, 2019. Here they talk about because he hasn't you know, he hasn't been arrested or anything.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This is just evidence they have. So May 11, 2019. Now, Kent here, you know, he doesn't like some of the younger pilots that he works with. He just doesn't like them. They're not military guys. They're not like him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, they're doing this for pussy. So he almost backed out of the trip when he saw who he was paired with. But he said he could have called in sick because he was off probation and with the company and everything. But he said he didn't want to fuck anything up. So he figured he'd just do the trip and be done with it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So he treated the two flight attendants to dinner at Panera Bread on their first layover. Boy. The captain, whom Kit didn't like, was in good spirits, so that was good. The second day of the four-day trip had a layover in Louisville, and the captain was planning on meeting up with a girl he knew in the area, and everything was going to be all fun here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So they get back on the flight to fly out of Louisville. here and I'll let a passenger take over from here this is Ashley Martin of Elizabethtown who has no relation to Kit by the way Martin's a common last name she says it was something like it was like something you would totally see in a movie
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Her and her mother, Frances, were at the airport boarding American Airlines Flight 5523 from Louisville to Charlotte. And the mother said, it was very tense. I think it was very tense. You could tell the employees knew something was going on. They said when they first heard their pilot had been arrested...
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
they took him off the fucking plane bro it's hilarious they both assumed he must have been shit faced probably because I showed up drunk later in the day though they learned different and the mother said oh my gosh when they learned he was in for murder Ashley Martin said it's startling it's scary to think that this happened so long ago and they're just now getting around to catching the guy then the mother said we were inconvenienced a lot
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She's still looking for fucking free fucking miles here or something. This is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We're going to Bolivia, everybody. That's where we're going. Rerouting this flight. We're going to Cuba.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We're going to be headed for Cuba. Change of plans, everybody. Might want to contact your loved ones in your destination city. Let them know you've been rerouted to Cuba.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Not sure of the legalities of our attempted immigration.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Mother, we're inconvenienced a lot. Like, missed an entire day of a vacation that's been planned and saved for for an entire year. I can't imagine how hard that is. Better than being flown into a mountain, probably. So they were going to St. Lucia.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. If you were in Kentucky and you thought you'd be in an island in three hours, I guess that would piss you off. That's way different.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This is bullshit. Someone get me a pina colada or I'm going to stab somebody.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She said, the daughter said, I was definitely stressed. It felt like it was a little chaotic and unorganized. The workers, you could tell they were stressed. You could feel the energy. You could feel the tension from the flight attendants. And then there's an American Airlines statement they give out here.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's what you get for flying American. Go fuck your mothers. What do you expect? What do you expect? It's American. Fuck you.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
By the way, if we lose your bag, we're keeping it. Fuck off. All of us at American Airlines and PSA Airlines.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's cheap. We might be going where you're going when no one else goes there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That would be me in an American Airlines seat in a commercial. I'd be going, they were the only ones flying to where I needed to go. I thought about taking a layover to fly a better airline here, but I just said fuck it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Down here, only 4% Catholic, so that's how that works. The unemployment rate here is a little higher than the national average, but nothing out of whack. Now, the median household income here is actually really good. The rest of the country, $69,000 is the average. Here it is $72,798 a year, which is not bad at all, especially when you consider the cost of living is a little bit lower.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I just said fuck it, and then they come on. American Airlines, fuck it. That's their new slogan, and that's it. I just said fuck it. I'll take a chance.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Oh, my God. All of us at American Airlines and PSA Airlines are deeply saddened to have learned about these allegations from 2015. Our team was made aware of the indictment this morning after his arrest at Louisville International Airport. We have an unwavering. Who cares? Okay. He was placed on administrative suspension pending the outcome. Wow. They must really need pilots.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They're like, he might get off. Hey, remember that one guy we hired? Yeah. Look, he's on trial for triple murder right now, but he could get off. If he gets off, we could put him right in the schedule, go and do the Norfolk round again.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I think it is. That's awesome. Wow. So he is now indicted on three counts of murder, two counts of burglary, one count of arson, one count of attempted arson, and three counts of tampering with physical evidence. Yeah, it's not good. Wow. Okay, now it gets fun. Yeah? Well, a little bit after this, but he calls his mom from jail when he gets arrested.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
She picked up the phone and heard about accepting a call from an inmate and was like, what? And just hung up. She didn't have any idea. She was just like, that's crazy. Click, wrong number.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
prank caller obviously oh my god uh that's amazing um when her mom when his mom did find out she had to be taken to the hospital for she thought she's having a heart attack really she's having an anxiety she's gotta be 70 something years old yeah yeah he's in his 50s so i mean christ he's like 50 49 or some shit so he pleads not guilty as you do
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
His lawyer said his client would plead not guilty and said that's what – they said basically like why – he said why did they wait so long to indict him? He said that's what we're all curious about. What evidence do they have that they didn't have almost four years ago? Well, a bullet. A bullet that matches your gun is one. That's a big one.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's a big one. Yeah. So he's arraigned. Elijah was there during the arraignment because they were asking him questions. Yeah. And Elijah said this to a reporter. He gave an on-camera interview to a Nashville station. He said he would hide behind a mask out in public in front of everybody and act like he was this great major in the military. Behind closed doors, he was very evil.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He was a tyrant. He was a monster, all of the above. I was the one he targeted most. Beat me all the time, smack me around, punch me, whatever. He then gave another example of maltreatment. He said, I was out mowing the lawn one day and I made the line a little too crooked and he started smacking me around for it and told me I was doing it wrong. And then Cal came over and took me out of there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's part of it. Cal apparently came over and
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So that I think maybe it's not just the military stuff. Hal knows about.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yes. That's what I mean. These people seem very enmeshed in their neighbors lives and very fucking nosy. All of them. So everyone in this neighborhood knows exactly what's going on with everybody.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I'm going to go get him. So the news reporter stated that Elijah told him that he and his mother and sisters left immediately after the murders and they never doubted who was behind them. Elijah said, I believe that he took out the witnesses. I hope he gets the worst punishment that's available to him. Now, the venue is going to be transferred from Christian County to Hardin County.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
$100,000 is average. Here it is $74,400. So not bad. Housing, the median home cost here is $217,700, which is also very doable, especially if, you know, 72 grand a year. It's not bad. That all equals out. So maybe we've talked genuine. Maybe you have a good imagination and you can come up with some shit to do for yourself.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Little tiny venue. You got to move that shit because everybody heard about it. During an evidence suppression hearing, it was revealed that police requested Diana, the Phillips, the aunt of the kid of the Phillips on there to submit to a polygraph examination, which she apparently failed. However, the trial court excluded the evidence at trial anyway. What are the questions?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Basically, I don't know if they're trying to say that. The only thing I can think of, the defense is saying that they basically, the Phillipses, went and got a shell casing from somewhere else.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And said they found it near where the murder happened. So that's what they said. But the bullet, the casing was still allowed into the trial. Other pretrial shit here. They said that the Commonwealth filed a notice of its intent to admit hearsay statements under the forfeiture by wrongdoing exception, which is in the law here. That is about two weeks before he died.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Cal told Stephen Durham that he feared Kit would kill him before the court-martial trial. Cal told a guy named Stephen Bollinger that if he ever ended up missing or dead, to point the authorities old Kit Martin's way.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Cal told Major James Garrett, one of the prosecutors from the court-martial, that he was afraid of Martin because Martin knew he had provided the information that led to the court-martial. Pam told Penny Case that she and Cal were afraid to leave the house unoccupied because they were afraid Martin would be in the house when they got back. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Pam told Case she was worried Martin would hurt her and the authorities should look at Martin if anything happened to her. So, okay. The court determined these statements were admissible under the forfeiture by wrongdoing exception. Okay. Now... He brings up, in their defense, they're like, what about all these other deaths around Joan? Oh? Okay, listen to this.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
On June 28, 2015, an elderly couple was brutally attacked at their residence on Old Trenton Road in Guthrie, Kentucky. Both had been bound and beaten. Joan had been renting a house from the couple. Not that house. Not near there. That was just her landlord's. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yes, but they said it was unclear if they were her landlord at the time of the attack or not. They operated a large farm. Amos Yoder, who was 79, and his wife Marjorie Yoder died from severe head trauma there. Joan talked about the Yoder murders to her coworkers at the soda shop. She described the Yoders as being like grandparents to her kids.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Over the following weeks, though, they said Joan seemed to come into a windfall. She bragged about new furniture and a car she had purchased. She showed up to work in new outfits. When asked where the money had come from for all these purchases, Joan said her mom had sent her money. They said the Yoder beatings are still unsolved and robberies believed to be the motive.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Okay, so she stole enough money to get... So Cal's defense team wants to put in that even though there is zero evidence she had anything to do with these people's murder or anything like that, he wants to put into evidence the fact that they were murdered and that she knew them and that she bought a new dress in the next couple months.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, you know what I'm saying? So that means I'm innocent.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Sure. The victim's family statement here, they said that this is from all the families together. Cal Phillips, Pam Phillips, and Ed Danzaro were brutally extinguished beyond recognition from family. Did they say extinguished when two of them were burned to death?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
If you can, we have for you the Pembroke, Kentucky Real Estate Report.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Why did they do it? Why do they do it? Your brain must do that. It must. Because all these statements where you're like, what's the last thing you want to say? It's fucking constant. It's every fucking time.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Just leave it out. Anything. Wow. The white force was burned out of them. It's totally unintentional, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No, I don't think they're trying to help us out. But thank you. Anyway, beyond recognition from the family, every day we're haunted by what was done to them and haunted further that someone was still free to do as they wish beyond the civility of mankind or laws of our nation. We are overwhelmed with this positive step toward resolution for the people we love dearly, Cal, Pam, and Ed.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And the hundreds of friends, family, neighbors, coworkers and others deeply affected by their brutal end. We look forward to justice in court and we look forward to a verdict to bring an end to this terror and start a fresh start at healing. So 2021 here, Joan completed her pretrial diversion for her bigamy shit.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Two days prior to this trial. So because of that, I am pretty sure they did this on purpose when they did the trial, the date for it. The state then filed a motion to exclude any reference to the bigamy charges. And she wasn't under anything anymore. Oh, so they said, you can't talk about that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The trial court ruled that she could not be impeached with the bigamy conviction because it was dismissed as diverted because she was in a diverted thing, which means it got dismissed. So as soon as it got dismissed, technically she no longer did it. So you can't bring that up anymore. So that's what the court decided.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So that won't come up in court that she was a bigamist, which is way different than a triple murder, by the way. So it doesn't matter really.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
average two bedroom rental here goes for about eight hundred forty dollars which is well yeah it's about a third under the national average here's a three bedroom one bath home here uh it's a thousand fifty two square feet so not a lot of room in there and it it's basically a a shed house i would call it a house shed it's an apartment that is by itself
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Might just be lazy. possible man pure lazy bad at paperwork yeah so the defense as the defense basically kit's defense is the alt perp defense somebody what me yeah somebody else and they know not just somebody else her okay fucking joan yeah yep she said joan wanted to ruin him so she had her boyfriend commit the murders and plant the shell on the phillips porch to frame him
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I know. I've been framed. Yes. My wife didn't do it. She manipulated another guy to do it. Then they framed me together. Framed. Framed. Framed. Yeah. Okay. So at that point, because of the theory of the case, both Joan and Elijah both invoke their Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination on this because they can, I guess, their lawyers advise them to.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
If they're going to accuse them of crimes, don't let them accuse you of crimes and actually answer their questions in court. That's stupid. So, and at a following hearing, the circuit court ordered that neither Joan nor the son could be called as a witness at trial. So they're both out. Which, I mean, it's pretty irrelevant, honestly, at this point, because it's a murder trial.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Exactly. That's that's you're absolutely right. You're not now they anybody taking the fifth. The judges instruct the jurors that that is not allowed to be taken as anything. But that's your human beings.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You send 12 humans back in a room. They're not law books. They're humans, and they're going to think dumb shit because they're humans. That's what we do. So in the openings here, the defense opening, they basically say that the whole opening is it was Joan Harmon that did these murders, not my client. Also presented testimony.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They're going to present testimony from Kit's daughter saying that Joan threatened to ruin him and his military career. Remember that? If he left her.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Um, other people testifying here, Pam's coworker, um, this woman here said that, uh, she testified regarding statements that Pam made that she was afraid to leave her house for the holidays because if she did, Martin would be in her house waiting for her when she got back. She told everybody this shit. She further testified that Pam also said she believed Martin would hurt her.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And if anything happened, that's your guy right there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So the defense team is their big thing is they try to get the the images of Elijah forensically analyzed to see if because they have those pictures. Yeah. And they look bad. So if you if you can say that Joan fabricated that, then she's capable of anything is basically what they're trying to do. She she likes to frame this guy and we're saying he's framed. So one plus one equals two.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So, yeah, one times one equals one. Sorry, Terrence Howard, but that's how it works. The resulting analysis was unable to determine definitively when or where the photos were taken. Big deal. It doesn't matter. There was also questions about the reliability of timestamp data related to emails Jones sent that contained the images.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said while the pictures while the content may show injuries, there's nothing visual in the pictures validating date and time without the camera being submitted and the time verified as accurate. These pictures should not be used and should not have been used as evidence. So basically, they said the time on a camera can be easily skewed or changed. That's his defense team saying that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, but it's, I mean, look, it's a shed that they put rooms in. It's a metal building. Oh. It's all metal. It's just metal sides, metal top. It looks like you put the lawnmower here and the kid's room over here. Like, it's a real weird shed house.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Here's his ex-wife's work boss here. So Kit presented testimony from Joan's work supervisor, Lisa, who said that Joan was strangely excited and almost happy in the immediate aftermath of the murders. Joan's statement about the murders and other behavior disturbed this Lisa Petri to the point where she reported Joan to the police.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I think she was happy her husband was going to go to prison because she thought he was a dick. Another thing here, Kit presents evidence about a month after the murders that Joan brought Pam's cell phone to an AT&T store claiming she found it in the yard of her residence in Elkton, Kentucky, which is 10 miles away. All right.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
When Harmon returned the phone to AT&T, it had been reset to factory settings.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So because she tried to get a phone hooked up, that means that she killed her.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, anytime. Now, he also is trying to say that Joan carries a .45 Glock pistol. Oh, okay. Really? That's a big gun. Most ladies don't carry a .45. Most petite blonde ladies don't carry a .45 just because of the kick on that thing.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Even then, you might not be able to control it if you weigh a buck 20. That's a big gun. So and also they say that her boyfriend was, quote, in the area on the day of the murders of Kentucky. So, you know, Kit further attempts to cast doubt on the integrity of the investigation because Joan was romantically involved with William Stokes, who was related to Ed Stokes, who was a sheriff's deputy.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Related. Not his brother. So because she fucked a cop's cousin, that means that the whole police force is going to frame a man. Going to frame a major in the army because she fucked the cop's cousin. She must have fucked him good.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Hey, it works for tons of people, at least in the public eye.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. But you have no idea how much that does in the public eye, though. Yeah, yeah. If you say you're framed, there's so many people that just believe that that's because people have been framed, but they think that everybody's framed then. So it's crazy. And especially if you're in whatever group that they like, that's also going to be part of it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Damn it. I've been framed. I had the cruise control on 77, I swear.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Framed me. Yes. That's fucking funny. So now the wounds, the prosecution's theory of they said the wounds on Cal were made with military-like precision. Oh. And the words are very carefully chosen. In Pam's case, they said a shot to the brain or the heart would have been enough to kill her instantly.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
This is a shed where they were like, y'all could live in that if you really needed to. Someone said that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
The fact that there were multiple shots indicates that it wasn't the defense is saying it wasn't quite as precise of a shooting as the prosecution claimed. In the case of Ed Danzaro, investigators found two different areas outside separated by some 60 yards that contained his blood. He wasn't killed instantly since both Pam and Ed's bodies had been mostly consumed in the fire.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
There's no way to know how many shots might have been into their bodies or What the prosecution claimed was military-like precision was more likely a chaotic stream of gunfire. The gunshots to the brain and heart were probably fired after both had become incapacitated by shots elsewhere in their bodies. Ed had multiple bullet fragments in his skull.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So they said Pam's official cause of death was multiple shots to the torso and Ed's cause of death was multiple gunshots to the head. They said besides the bullet fragments, an examination of Ed Danzaro's remains revealed the presence of a metal plate attached to a leg bone. His girlfriend, Sally Jackson, confirmed he had a metal plate in his leg, the result of a skiing accident.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Now, Kit testifies. Really? He has to. His whole case is a huge conspiracy against me.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah. I've been framed. I've been framed. So if you're going to say that, you've got to go up there and be hella believable. Let's just say that. So they said, Chris, did you murder these three people? Yes. No, sir, I did not.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's plain. The kitchen and bathroom, they actually did some nice work on it where it's not too bad. So that is $160,000. No thank you. What? What? Yeah, it's a little much there, I think. Here is a five-bedroom, three-bath, 3,268-square-foot house on two acres. And it's a basic suburban dwelling is basically what it is. You can see it and go, oh, there's a nice... Kind of bigger average home.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
No contraction. But she's also a military guy, and they don't like contractions quite as much. It's not official enough for them. They continued questioning. They said, did you have someone else murder these three people? He said, no. They said, are you behind this whole thing? And he said, no. I think the evidence and the expert testimony has shown that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You know, it just feels like adult stuff that you have to do. And thanks to Rocket Money, my goals feel achievable now. They show me all my subscriptions in one place, help me easily cancel ones I forgot that I've been paying for, which happened to me. Absolutely happened to me. For years, I was paying for something. I was like, what is going on here?
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He said that the prosecution in the case believes he did it, stating that he's been in jail for, quote, 768 days and five and a half hours. And the hours just to show how, you know, on top of everything he is. They then asked him about his military dog tags and the dog tag that had been collected as evidence from the Phillips home. There was one of his dog tags was found in the home over there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He denied that the dog tag on a string collected from the Phillips home was his explaining, even though, you know, had all his info explaining all his dog tags had always been on breakaway chains, came in pairs and had rubber boots, meaning the case around it. Well, like the license plate holder.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
which he said were pieces of rubber that covered the edges to prevent them from glaring or making constant fucking jingling noises. He specifically stated he would never have placed his dog tags on a string and that they'd always been kept on a metal breakaway chain. He said no soldier would do that, especially a white string, but they wouldn't put it on a string at all.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, but you're not in combat. You're in Pembroke, Kentucky. I get if you're in the field, you wouldn't do that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, you're not, there's no counterinsurgency here. This is, what are you talking about? He added that also anyone can get a dog tag made anywhere or ordered online. So, I mean, anybody can do that. He said that also, they said, why was your alarm set for 1.15 a.m.? Why? Okay. He said, well, you see what happened was, what happened was.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Quarter after one, yeah. He said, I think that was the first night I was running the new heater. So I was a little concerned about it, obviously. So I would usually set my alarm for November through March and during the night to go check on it at least once to refill it and make sure everything was going all right.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yep. He said he checked after he checked the new heater that night, he went back to sleep. He said that also he'd been on the Phillips property several times to target shoot his guns with Cal Phillips, which is true.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
We know that he also confirmed during his testimony that his ex-wife, who the defense has suggested may have committed the murders instead of him, had also fired his guns behind the Phillips home. He recalled Cal Phillips asking him to help run a concealed carry permit class, but that he didn't have the time or money to do it, but he encouraged his wife to take part in it.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He said, I encouraged Joan to do it, and I think Joan, Ed, and some other people did it, and I think they actually did it in his backyard. You would know if there was a firing range going on.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
You know, it seems like a lot. Yeah. He also said the night that he that they separated him and Joan, he said the two of them got in an argument and that she had been yelling loud enough for the neighbors to hear. He said she started yelling at me some more. And finally, I got to the point where I was like, look, I talked to you about this before. I'm done. I want a divorce.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And he said she acted, quote, she acted violently and told me straight up the first thing that came out was if you divorce me, I'll ruin your career. I know how to do it. So he continued to testify that that night deputies were called to the home by both of them, both he and Joan, to intervene in the dispute.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Following the dispute, he said that Harmon issued an emergency protective order against him. The judge later ruled in favor of Kitt, he said, after Harmon failed to meet the burden of proof of the threat of domestic violence. During his testimony, Martin also confirmed that during the court-martial that Joan and Cal had been – began against him. They're against him basically.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But that he and his defense counsel subpoenaed Cal as he was a key witness and he said he at this point intended to call Cal as a witness for him. Yeah. Yeah. He said, my private investigators had interviewed Calvin, and we have his audio that was actually played on Channel 4 Nashville, and he denied all that. He was key for me to disprove the lead prosecutor in the court-martial there.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Yeah, it's on two acres, which is nice. Inside, it is very, very like early 2000s. It needs a big time renovation. The carpets look a little sketchy in the bedrooms. It's one of those. It could use some help. $484,000 for that. This place doesn't sound that affordable. That's not that affordable at all. And then finally, four-bedroom, four-bath T-Ball for each and every b-hole right there, baby.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So he said that's why at that point he was, for me, he was my most important witness.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Oh, I'm so upset. Kitt also testified he'd never owned the type of ammunition that was found to have killed Calvin, the G2 Research RIP .45 caliber. When they mentioned that the prosecution's firearms expert testified that the .22 caliber bullets could have been fired by any of Kitt's weapons.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Kitt replied that his guns didn't fit them. That's what he said. Well, my gun, those don't fit my gun. They asked Kitt if he disagreed with the ballistics expert, and Kitt said he remembered hearing the expert say that they didn't match and that the truth was that the conclusions about the bullets were none of Kitt's guns could be excluded. meaning they could be his guns.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They shared similar rifling characteristics as test bullets fired from his guns, but that the expert could not match the guns. He continued to testify that on the night of November 19th, after he and his lawyer and private investigator learned of the murders, the two advised him to move the Glock that he usually kept in his truck into his safe out of fear that Joan might do something.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Even if he's not in the truck, doesn't even take it in the house. Wow. Finally, he testified that on the night of November 18th, he spent the day after coming home from work at Fort Campbell celebrating his and Laura Spencer's anniversary by watching TV, eating dinner, and spending time together at home. Well, you could have done all that and got up at 115. That's the point.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's the whole fucking point. Now, during cross-examination here, I bet they couldn't wait to get their fucking claws into him. They asked him when he learned the court-martial against him came as a result of what Harmon and Cal Phillips turned into the laptop. He said, I didn't find that out until much later. I was just informed that there was a laptop.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
I had background information showing that it actually hadn't been an Army laptop since 2007 and belonged to a unit in Maryland, which I had never been to, but I tried to provide that. They asked him if that didn't stop the court-martial. It continued.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said, so you knew that Joan Harmon, with the help of Cal Phillips, not only turned over the laptop that was found in belongings that had been in your house, turned it into the FBI, but also that Cal had provided a photograph of Joan Harmon's son showing bruises and so forth. He replied stating he didn't know any of that information for several years before
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
But added that he knew Joan was obviously behind it. Obviously, they said you at some point said that you hired private investigators who specifically went to interview Cal Phillips. And he said later on, yeah, they said so. You know, they're asking him to. He was saying that Cal was going to testify for him again. They said, so it wasn't that you thought he would be favorable to you.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Because they said Martin originally stated he needed Cal to discredit Harmon and Garrett, but later confirmed that discrediting Cal was only a small part of his importance as a witness. So they said, so it wasn't that you thought it would be favorable to you. The effort was to discredit him.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And he said, that's what the attorneys put down there. But we also had the private investigator interview. So now he's saying two different things. They wanted him to testify so they could discredit him to get rid of all the evidence. But he's saying, no, no, he's going to testify for me.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Sounds like he takes something that very small and makes it into something that would be helpful for him and that he would like it to be. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
They said, you heard the pathologist testify that both Ed Denzerao and Pam Phillips were murdered with .22 caliber bullets, any of which could have been fired in any one of either of the two .22 caliber pistols you owned or the .22 caliber Smith & Wesson rifle. And he said, not my rifles or pistols, and that's what the experts say.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And the prosecutor said, actually, the .22 bullets could have been fired from either of those guns. And he said, they weren't. Okay, but you just said, see what I mean? They said it might have been, and we can't confirm it, so he said that means they wasn't. Done. Not mine. He just extrapolates something that's better for him. So in closings, his lawyers continue to say Cal was on his side.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
4,570 square feet. It's a big house. 3.63 acres. It's a big house. It's fine. It's nice. Almost four acres. It's good. It's good. It's got pillars and stuff. I mean, it's got a lot of fancy stuff in it, too. It's got a sauna and a tennis court and shit like that. Somebody really fancied it up. Someone whose pinnacle of high style was whatever was hot in 1987 decided to really do this place up.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Joan was the one who did this. And the prosecutors are like, Jesus fucking Christ, how much circumstantial evidence do you need? This is a lot, man. So the verdict comes in. He is found guilty of everything.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Across the board. Sentencing comes around. Oh, boy. You, sir, may fuck off three life sentences without the possibility of parole. It's over. A life sentence for arson. Oh. 20 years for attempted arson. 20 years for each count of burglary. Five years each for each count of tampering with physical evidence for a total sentence of life without parole.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
That's what I mean. Anything else. Jesus Christ. Yeah. I think his emissions tag was out of date, I think, on that. Pretty sure. Yeah. Pretty sure they did that. So the reactions are here. The prosecution claims that Ed Danzaro and Pam Phillips were just collateral damage. Yeah. They weren't the reason he was there. Now, the families in the Pembroke County community have endured a profound loss.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
While this verdict in no way eases that pain, I hope they in some way find some peace and comfort today. So there's juror number five, by the way, that this book talks to. Juror number five is a very similar guy to Kit. Career military guy. Same thing. They both did helicopter flight training at Fort Rucker, Alabama. But juror number five was in Nam. That's the only difference. He was in Vietnam.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He's an older guy where he flew a Cobra combat helicopter. Oh, oh, my God. Yeah. So he was 74 and they talked to him about all this. And in the book, they're trying to, like, convince him that he was wrong. They said when confronted with the testimony that there was no evidence that the barrel had been altered on the gun, meaning that.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He claimed it could have been switched out after the murders, something not discussed at trial. He also agreed with the prosecution that the manufacturer of the bullet could have used different shell casing during the assembly process, which the prosecution explained could be why the metals in the shell casing didn't match the metal combination normally used for the RIP rounds.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
As for the .22 caliber evidence not conclusively matching any of the defendant's weapons, he said that that didn't matter to him because they could have just as easily matched them.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So they said the dog tag evidence was of concern for him. He said he told his fellow jurors how it was routine to separate dog tags with one tag around the neck and one tag placed in the shoe.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
He said, just as Kit had demonstrated on the witness stand. He followed that up by telling his fellow jurors that he was aware from people serving in Iraq and Afghanistan that soldiers would sometimes wear their dog tags on something other than a chain due to the desert heat.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
It's hot metal. A string is actually, and it's just uncomfortable. Um, he had no explanation of how the dog tag ended up on a bookshelf next to the, next to the victim's phone and wallet commentating or commenting that the fact it wasn't found until much later indicated to him it was unlikely to have been, uh, planted evidence.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Um, some of the other evidence, they said the DNA testing came back for Ed Danzaro, blah, blah, blah. Uh, He keeps going. He said, I'm glad they got it straightened out, is what he said. He said the security camera footage didn't cover the front of the house.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
When asked about the front door, he agreed with the defense that the front door was unusable, but claimed the defendant could have gone out through a window. Leaving the house by an open window wasn't something that was ever discussed at trial, but worth considering. So basically, he's just saying that... They're trying to go over him. He goes, no, I thought he was guilty and blah, blah, blah.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
Once deliberations began, the first task was to choose a foreperson. They got some other guy. The next job was to do a poll. And they said after the first poll, several people voted guilty, a few were undecided, and at least one voted not guilty. That's what he said. He implied that his explanation about why the dog tag might have been on a string he thinks helped sway a few votes.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
OK, they were like he would never keep it and kept it on a string. He's a military guy, so we can believe him. So he said he's only had it on a chain and he was like, nope, you'll separate him and do that. So he said after that process and further discussion, another poll would be taken. The number of jurors willing to vote guilty increased.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
And he said from there, just a couple more votes and then snowballs from there. Now, once he's in prison, he directs his family. He calls his family on the phone and directs them to find a box hidden beneath the stairs of his previous home in North Carolina.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
that contained weapons the deputies believed were used to kill the victims. He made phone calls from prison. He asked his sisters to retrieve this box under the stairs of the rally house, and I guess he and Laura Spencer had broken up and the house was for sale. They said, quote, he was definitely urgent that she find it. They know this because they're recording his phone calls. He's in prison.
Small Town Murder
#563 - The Major Murders - Pembroke, Kentucky
So Smith said that when, this is one of the cops, when he and a fellow deputy arrived at the house in Raleigh to find out what was in the box, they were able to gain entrance, but the box was missing from the hidden location.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No. 2023, the house was for sale.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
What did they get for it? 3,600 square foot, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They said it was listed for $559. It sold for $480.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Sold for way below what they wanted for it. Welcome to Fresno. It's a fucking murder house, too.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
People were slaughtered there. They wanted $550 for it? Yep. It had been sold in 1998 for $175,000. That's a great return. Not bad. So, yeah, he's there. 2024, Dana wants a retrial. Okay. He said the appeal is long, powerful, and it's substantial.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The trial procedure violations are ones that very much go to the guilt or innocent of Dana, and it's the appeal that the California Attorney General will be worried about. He's also said he's a devout Christian now. Okay. Yep. He said, God has allowed me some extraordinary events to occur in my life and completely broke me down and rebuilt me back up in the love of Christ. OK, great. Terrific.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Buster Rhymes was the headliner last year. Ludacris, the Ying Yang twins, of course. Hell yeah. And more. They won't tell us who. But those two are great. If Ludacris won't get you here, no one's coming, man. No one's coming.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Good. Then you can worship Jesus in there for the rest of your fucking life. Enjoy.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. And the prosecutor said, I mean, that's nice and all. But he said also Dana's the kind of guy who would who would say something to make you believe what you want to believe. So he said, I just can't believe that anyone who did what he did has professed love to find God. Yeah, I agree. Right now, if you go to inmate.com, you can hang out with Dana because he's looking for ladies here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Oh, is he? Oh, yeah. He's on there. Dana Ewell, inmate.com. Experience, it says, the most brutal of all teachers. But you learn. My God, do you learn. C.S. Lewis, he puts at the top. And that's when everything changed. Sigh. So he keeps going. He says, born and raised in Central California, I grew up around general aviation and learned how to fly airplanes as a teenager.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I also love to travel and play tennis, blah, blah, blah. How about you? It's amazing how God works in our lives, isn't it? Never could I have imagined that coming to prison would be the best thing that's happened to me. But it was Jesus taught me that love is stronger than hate and forgiveness is stronger than revenge.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You can write to him at Dana Yule P dash 0 4 7 5 9 C S P dash C O R slash 4 a 4 R dash 1 6 L P O box 3 4 7 6 Corcoran, California. I love that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Fucking difficult. Who the hell can find that? The case has been covered by a shitload of TV shows, including the forensic files, new detectives, city confidential. Yeah. Also behind mansion walls. That's a stretch there. So, yeah. It's 5.50 now. I mean, it's 3,600 square feet. Nice house, but not a mansion. Burial.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Whole family seems to be buried at Belmont Memorial Park in Fresno in the Garden of the Apostles section 2020, space 6. And Ernest Jack Ponce, maybe the biggest surprise of this whole thing, became an attorney in Orange County.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yes. Never responded for repeated emails and requests for any of these people to talk to him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
We don't know what happened, what he was doing, but he's a fucking lawyer now. So quickly, we'll bust through the end here. Thank you so much for listening. If you like that show, please tell the goddamn world about it. Get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. It helps a ton. Dana sucks is a fine thing to say. Definitely do that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You should also follow on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. Definitely do shut up and give me murder dot com. Get your tickets for live shows. April 19th virtual live show. The 420 virtual live show.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Just like a regular live show except you're in your living room wherever you are in the world with Wi-Fi and we are in costumes and we're going to get super stoned with crazy bongs and I'll make Jimmy smoke them. It's going to be fun. Tickets for live shows. Chicago in May. Get your goddamn tickets now. St. Louis is sold out. Do that. Shut up and give me murder.com.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Celebrate a night filled with throwbacks, cervezas, tacos, and tequila. Hosted by DJ K. Rich. I don't know. Okay. But you're going to see Ludacris. It's basically like a county fair, but with tequila. Yeah. So it sounds great. That's about all that's going on there. Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here, property crime is just below the national average. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Patreon.com slash crime and sports. All the bonus material you want. Five dollars a month or above.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
whole back catalog hundreds of episodes you get immediately new ones every other week one crime and sports one small town murder you get it all this week crime and sports more sports songs let's hear Manny Pacquiao sing and Chris Weber rap fuck it and for small town murder Lewis Carlucci con man Casanova guy from the 80s that had like 20 women he was like half married to they're searching all over the city no one can find him huge con man hilarious shit we'll talk all about that patreon.com slash crime and sports and you get a shout out at the end of the show which is right fucking now
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The April 19th 420 virtual live show, just like a regular live show, except you can watch it anywhere on the planet that has internet, wherever you want to watch it. We will be in costumes. We'll have the screen and the pictures and the regular, all the live show tropes. Yep. Except you don't have to go anywhere. It's pretty awesome.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who are so goddamn wonderful they'd never shoot us with homemade silencers.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Oh, I love a judgmental. I love a potato with sentient emotions. That's what I like.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Well, happy birthday, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
All of your parents fucked in whatever it is. Nine months ago. June. I don't know. You got some summer fuckers.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's one of them, I think, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
On the way to Columbus. Yeah, we looked it up and we're like, God. And we were like, there's that many? It doesn't look like it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Make sure to enunciate, Mark. Enunciate. Key.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Richard Maul, Bull. Yeah, Bull. Ball guy.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
just under it violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is also just below the national average so really fresno proper not like that at all crime rate high that's what i mean this is like a little kind of little enclave to itself this is safety this is yeah if there's if there's a murder game this is where people go i'm i'm i'm on base yeah i'll move into sunny side so you can't murder me can't murder me here that said let's talk about some murder
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Watch out for that. That sounds terrible.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Pamela. Maybe she pronounces it like that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Aiden Gossett, like Lou, but really white. But Aiden.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You should write a comic book about yourself called Marshall Mayhem.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I don't buy your shit. You didn't do anything to earn that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Someone gave it to you. Yeah, that's true. I'll buy your parents dreams. Yeah, get your dad and mom out there and we'll buy them a fucking cocktail.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Megan Daniels. The wheels are coming off there, guys.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Thank you so much, everybody, you wonderful, fantastic bastards. We love you so much, and we just can't thank you enough for what you do for us. We will be here, and we'll keep coming back. You want to follow us, shut up and give me murder.com, drop down menu, take you wherever you want to go. That said, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Let's do this shit. Okay. Let's start out on April 21st, 1992. Okay. This is two days after Easter. Okay. All right. Now, the address is 5663 East Park Circle Drive. We'll talk more about the house later. So the maid arrives. Okay. Right away, we know this is a decent house because the maid arrives for duty. You're doing well. She's about to enter the house when the neighbor comes over also.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
There's a neighbor that pops by. She was called by the 22-year-old son of the family who lives there because he couldn't get a hold of his family. So he called the neighbor and said, hey, would you go see what's going on with my family? I can't get a hold of them. So they end up going in the house, and what they find is right in the kitchen they find a dead body.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
There's a woman dead on the floor right in the kitchen. And then they look up and see another dead person sitting in a chair in the living room. And there's a lot of blood, and it's a mess. So they take off out of the house, the maid and the neighbor. This goes far beyond neighborly duty of, you know, can you see if my parents are still there? You see if the phones are working.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
This is a different thing completely. So, yeah, they got a call here. So the neighbor calls 911. The police arrive. and the neighbor and the maid says, I got here for duty. I'm here to clean, and the neighbor said, I got a call from the son. That's why I'm here. So they said the son called and said he couldn't get his family on the phone, so he asked the neighbor to go over and check it out.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When she arrived at the house at about 9, 10 a.m., the housekeeper and her crew had just got there. Everybody was kind of going in together. The housekeeper had a key to the house. That's how they got in.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Because she's got a key to come and go and clean.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They immediately noticed several things out of place right away. They're like, what's going on here? What are they doing? And that's when they discovered the body on the kitchen floor. So then the neighbor ran across the street to call 911. Smart. They didn't touch anything. That's good. And also contacted the son of the family to say, well, I checked on them.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And it's available for two weeks after the April 19th date as well. You can buy it. You can watch it 100 times. You can do whatever you want with it. Shut up and give me murder.com. While you're there, get your tickets for regular live shows as well. Our next batch is St. Louis and Chicago. St. Louis is sold out, but Chicago, still a few tickets at the Riviera. So get in there and get those.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
At least two of them are dead, I assume. So that's not great here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
We took the fuck off. You might want to call the cops. Okay. So who lives in this house? Let's find out here. It is the Ewells. E-W-E-L-L-S. Ewells. Ewells. Yeah. Starting off, let's talk about the matriarch of the family here, Glee Ethel Mitchell, as she was born. Glee. G-L-E-E. Glee. And that's her mom's name also. Okay. And that's not like a nickname they call her. Her name is Glee.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Glee Ellen Mitchell. She's born January 13th, 1935. She's from Chicago. Her parents are Glee and James. She's an only child growing up in Chicago back then. Her father was an instructor at the Chicago Squash Club.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I don't either. I just know it's a game that people that went to like Harvard play.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's it. Yeah. Cause Frazier and Niles were always playing squash and they had a racket and they dressed like they were playing tennis, but I don't think they were playing tennis. I don't know what the fuck it was that they were doing. I really don't.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Is it like, is it tennis for non-athletic people?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
There's a racket, I'm sure. I think it's like a racquetball type of thing, too. Yeah, it's like racquetball. There's walls, I think, involved in it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, there you go. Why do they call it squash then? I don't know. Who cares? It doesn't matter, but it's stupid.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, I guess so. You could play that at the park. This, you need a membership to something for squash. Right. So the family was middle class. Dad's a squash instructor. I don't know what the hell they make. And then her mother, I guess, had family who died and they inherited oil money.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
they they had like oklahoma oil money in their family that they inherited so now all of a sudden they were doing great she's doing awesome glee ended up now think about she's born in 1935 so when she's ready for college it's like 1953 okay where it was like you know ladies either got married or went to secretarial school or went to like you know the college closest to them or something like that but a lot of girls didn't go away to college back then that wasn't a
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
thing that happened very often but glee went away to college go for her out of state she well you'll when i tell you where she went you're gonna go oh bad move university of arizona she goes to oh shit shit tucson um poor thing she does really well though she wins phi beta kappa honors with her degree in international or inter-american studies i don't know what that is i don't think that exists anymore studies that translate in from
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A lot of shows are selling out. Madison, San Diego is about sold out. Grand Rapids, Portland sold out. Yeah. If you want to go to a show later, get your tickets right now. Do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Also, listen to our other shows, Crime in Sports, which we're in the midst of an Evil Knievel series right now. You don't have to like sports at all.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Somewhere in there. But she's very smart, very respected, does very well. Her diploma, and she speaks Spanish fluently, leads her to an interpreter's job with the CIA. Great. So she's working for the CIA. She spent two years with the CIA in Argentina before returning to the United States. And then after that, we don't really know what her role is because...
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
With the CIA, yeah. We don't know if she's – who knows? That's what I mean. So we don't know if she's doing stuff in the States under the guise of I'm just Glee. I'm a mom of three and I'm doing great and all that shit. In 1961 is when she meets a guy named Dale Allen Ewell. They met at a party in Arizona outside Tucson. Oh, now he's born October 11th, 1932. So a couple of years older.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He's from Ohio. He is described, by the way, by a reporter as a tall Husky airport Air Force pilot. So you're going to attract the coeds in the 50s in 1961, you know, and you're a pilot, too. That sounds cool as shit.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He came from like a farm area in Ohio. His father raised corn, oats, soybeans and livestock. And his mother was a teacher, and he comes from a family with – he has a sister and three brothers, and his mother was a teacher and just really, really pushed education on them big time, the way to do what you wanted to do.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So Dale studied aeronautical engineering at Miami University in Ohio there and worked for aircraft companies in California, joined the Air Force. He's just all about planes, loves planes. Yeah, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Loves planes. So they get married on December 28th, 1961. They get married here. Now, he is a workaholic. So she's got to deal with that. But he's a workaholic. He has a job selling airplanes here. That's what he does. And that's what makes them move to the Fresno area is there's a lot of plane stuff going on here. Right.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They go to die. That giant graveyard out there. Or to take off from the base there. That's one of the two. So he made a name for himself and was very good at being a Cessna salesman. He's selling Cessna planes to people, little private planes. There's a guy last name of Purcell who will work with him for years later on and then we'll find out we'll eventually own his company here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He worked with him for 14 years and he said that Dale made a smart move early by targeting people he knew best, which was farmers like his dad. He knew those guys and what their needs were. Right away, what he'd do is he'd take a plane out, one of these Cessnas, land the plane on their farm, and take them for a ride. Come with me. He said, if you buy, I'll teach you how to fly it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So, yeah, they get them crop dusters, basically, and things like that. And if you buy it, I'll teach you how to fly it. So they said he would, you know, just go up and he'd sell them the sizzle, is what the guy said. That's what he did. He said, you weren't selling aluminum. It was the 250 miles per hour, 15,000 feet, fun of flying, the romance, the scarf and goggles, the power and ego.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You're selling. Don't you want to be cool?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's just you have to like hearing a story about a crazy person. So that's a lot of fun. And then also listen to your stupid opinions, which is reviews from all over the Internet. We find out what people are upset about and then make fun of them for it. And then when you've listened to all that, check out Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports. That's where you get all of your bonus material.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Don't you want to be the Red Baron? What's wrong with you? Get up there. Yeah. So that's what he would sell them. And he knew that was the button to push with them because they led dull lives, a lot of these guys. They went out on the farm and they went and sat in their house. How'd you like to go up and fly through the fucking air and look cool?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You get home and your farm wife will be blowing you. You know what I'm saying? She'll be like, you're so hot. Yeah, that's how that goes. That's what they're thinking. So the 60s were good years for being in this business, too. Air travel was becoming way more comfortable, too. People were becoming more comfortable with planes. It was just an everyday thing from then.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
In the 70s, the business got even better. Even then, we're talking 60s, 70s, he could make $30,000 or more on a single two-seater transaction. Each plane. Just a transaction. So, yeah, one of the airplane dealers said business was outstanding. You couldn't get enough product. You could sell everything you could get your hands on and at a large margin.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And especially if the demand is greatly outweighing the supply, you can charge whatever you want at that point. So Dale made a lot of money doing this, obviously. He's doing very well. Not a lot of people like him, though. He's not a real well-liked guy around the area here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No. Well, his boss said, quote, he was the most hated aircraft dealer in the world.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
In the world. Even somebody in Pakistan somewhere. Not as bad. Sorry. They've heard of him. They know him and they don't like him. It's very interesting. So this guy, I guess, hired Dale away from another firm in 1965 and then left him in charge when his boss was sent to prison for smuggling marijuana, which is what a lot of the planes were used for back then.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Well, we know from crime and sports, any of the guys who had speedboats and did speedboat racing, they were all trafficking drugs. Yeah, because there's no other way to pay for that fucking business except for that. But instead, when this guy went to prison, Dale's supposed to take care of his business and foster it. Instead, Dale just goes and starts his own business.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Just says, fuck it. Yep. He starts Western Piper sales. And he also took with him the rights to sell Piper airplanes in Fresno. So just completely fuck this guy.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Anybody $5 a month or above, you get all that we have for you. You're going to immediately get hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before, bonus stuff, and then new ones every other week. One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder. This week is no different. You get them all.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So, yeah, Lambie is this old boss and the guy who went to jail, and he said, Dale Huell did not respect you or thank you for anything you had done. This guy filed and lost two different lawsuits against Dale as well. Another guy who's the general manager of a flying service said that he said about Yule that Yule wasn't out here to be the most lovable guy. He was a no-nonsense kind of guy.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He was making money. That's all.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, it's business. He's not out there to make friends. And so the guy who said that owns a Cessna dealership next door to Western Piper. And he said he doesn't you doesn't let his customers get the upper hand. He said when a deal was done and the money was exchanged, Dale had a reputation of don't come back crying if you had a problem. He took a real tough line.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's your deal and it doesn't get any better. Yeah, that's that. So and now his wife is the complete opposite, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Glee is considered very, very nice. Glee. Glee. That's what I mean. She's happy.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No. And she helps people and she cares about people and she does charity work and shit like that. A lot of people said Dale was, quote, an old fashioned chauvinist, which I mean, he's a military guy born in 1935. What do you want from the fucking guy? That's like when I was like, oh, yeah, we were talking about our dad's not really whatever. And you go, your dad's an Italian biker, James.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
What do you want? And I went, yeah, good point. Good point. Yeah, there you go. So that's the same type of thing. Yeah. What do you expect from a guy who is in the military, you know, flying over fucking Korea, dropping bombs like he's not.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
This week for Crime in Sports, we're going to do more sports songs, more athletes poorly singing and rapping, which is a lot of fun to listen to.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, I don't know how. Yeah, that's just the way it was. So Glee, though, does all sorts of shit. She does public service. She volunteers for the Fresno County Grand Jury, the Civil Service Commission, the Valley Children's Hospital. She sits on the board, the State Bar Board of Governors. She's involved with museums, the Philharmonic.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
If there's a charity in Fresno and something that she's working it, man. A lot of parties that she has to go to and all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I'm sure she's feeding somebody somewhere. Yeah. And people are always sending her thank you cards and all this type of shit. One friend of hers for more than 35 years said you could talk to 100 people in Fresno and they'd tell you that she was their best friend. Wow. So that's just how she is a complete opposite of Dale. No one would tell you he's their best friend.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So they have a daughter on May 1st, 1967. Her name is Tiffany Ann Ewell, and she's a real quiet girl. And there might be a reason for that here. Um, People, her family mainly, dad and mom, say that her personality, they think, was shaped by a car accident she was in when she was a young child. Apparently she had a very bad head injury.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Chris Weber, Manny Pacquiao is back with more. We got all sorts of stuff here. Then for small town murder, we are going to talk about a 1980s New York City con man named Louis Carlucci or Con Juan or the con man Casanova who had.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And they said doctors had to install a steel plate to heal her skull.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She's like fucking Cousin Eddie now. She's got a steel plate in her head.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She knocks on and goes, every time I turn the microwave on, I get HBO. Whatever the fuck Cousin Eddie said, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's what it was. Forgot my name, pissed my pants. So the one friend who worked with Dale said, quote, Dale always said it slowed her down a little. He called her his, quote, imperfect angel.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
My little angel. My little imperfect angel. See how your head's lumpy on that one side? It's because you're imperfect. That's shitty. A real shitty thing to say.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's you. Look at that. Feel that? Hear that? That's not what a normal skull sounds like there, sweetheart.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She was voted the shyest person in the class of 1985 at Fresno's Catholic High School, San Joaquin Memorial, or has a head injury.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A lot of factors here that go into this.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, something. Her father helped her find a school that suited her. I think she's a little slow is what we're trying to get at here the whole time. Everybody says she's just a little bit slow. She goes to college in Linfield, Linfield College in McMinnville, Oregon. And people said she was pleasant, but, you know, was also very shy. And that's just the way she is.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She returned home to take graduate courses in accounting at California State University at Fresno. The president of the club for accounting students said she was a real sweet, quiet person. So everybody says she's nice, doesn't say shit, not really doing much. Another classmate said Tiffany was the opposite of her mother. Really quiet, very shy.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She was extremely private, just very sweet, very lovely, a wonderful personality, but you really had to draw her out in conversation. Yeah, I think she's a very insecure young lady who has a head injury.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, you might have to get it out. And like I said, dad's calling her an imperfect angel and everything else. That'll make you, your shoulders will go up and your head will go down when somebody does some shit like that. Your dad, there's like a weight going on your neck. It's rough.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
wives and girlfriends and they couldn't find him and he was like he was like the Jack the Ripper of cons in the 80s in New York guys just a dumpy dude it makes no sense whatsoever we'll talk all about it patreon.com slash that's it slash crime in sports is where you get all that and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well Jimmy he'll go ahead and mispronounce your name for you
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That is rough, man. So according to the guy who worked with Dale Purcell guy, he ate lunch with Dale nearly every weekday for nine years. He said that Dale considered women second class citizens and felt his daughter was. This is a crazy quote. Doubly handicapped because of her personality, too. I mean, right away, she's got that vagina. That's a disability right there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She's born with a hole where one shouldn't be. That's number one. That's a disability. And then number two, what the fuck? You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No, she's imperfect on top of this shit. She's got a fucking dent in her head. Doubly. Doubly handicapped, he would tell her. Felt bad for.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No shit. He would favor his daughter over the other kid. That's how he does this, because he feels bad for her, especially financially. Her trust fund was bigger than the son's because... The son has a lot of capabilities. We'll talk about him in a minute. And he felt that Tiffany didn't. So the Purcell guy said he felt Tiffany couldn't make it in this world without help.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
But he told Dana, that's the son who we'll talk about. You're a man. You can make it on your own. You're not doubly handicapped. grabs him by the crotch. He's like, see this right here? Lead with it. Lead with it. His son is Dana James Ewell. He was born January 28, 1971. It's a four-year difference between him and his sister. His personality is night and day from his sisters. Night and day here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He, wow. People, when he's in second grade, teachers describe him as a professional teacher.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Like he sees his dad and what he does and the business he deals with. His dad also owns a farm, a fig farm, all this different shit. And he sees that and he goes, yeah, that's me. I do that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
On his own letter. He said, this is a drawing of my cow. Now, I'll tell you how to chop it up for a good profit if you want. What do you say, teach? So, yeah, that's a real weird thing. One woman who went from kindergarten through eighth grade with Dana and then later on at Santa Clara University where he'll go, she said he was very competitive in getting good grades.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
In the eighth grade, he's all about money. So that is weird. He said these two, his friend and he attended Edison Computech in Southwest Fresno, which was a magnet school for gifted kids. Dana excelled at the school's specialty, which was computers, and he stood out as one of the smartest kids around, basically. Everybody thought so. He, well, you know what kids dress like. They wear shit.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He'd wear like pants, pants, not jeans, and would only wear the polo shirts, Ralph Lauren polo shirts with the pony and all that shit, with the little horsey. That's all. It's the only shit he would wear as a kid.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
His one friend described him as really mature and energetic, saying he was always in a hurry, walking what he called his New York walk and bragging that he could get by on four hours sleep. He's like a 12 year old. And he's like, listen, I'm a corporate raider. I know what I'm doing. I don't need sleep. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That said, disclaimer time. Hey, everybody, it's a comedy show. We are comedians. These stories are 1,000% real. So don't think, oh, it's a comedy show. They're making stuff up and trying to enhance the funniness. Not at all. We wish. That's the sad part. These are extremely real stories, extremely detailed research and everything like that. We want to give you the best of all of that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I got a blood pressure cuff on my desk, you know, like Michael Douglas and Wall Street. I'm walking here. So I guess Dana had a Mac computer before any of the other kids did back in the day here. And he had a great stereo and all this shit in his room. They said it was very weird. He had a dresser drawer filled with bottles of men's cologne when he was like 10 years old.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I don't know what's up with that shit. Very strange. His friend said, when I would go over to his house, his room was kind of a mess. I would kick some clothes over, and I would see a $100 bill on the floor. That used to blow me away. That's crazy. And we're talking in the early 80s here. $100 is a lot of money, and this kid's just on the floor under some dirty clothes.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When we were kids, which was well after this period, if you had $100, you knew exactly where that fucking $100 was.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Are you kidding me? Dude, it would be in a frame.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It'd be handcuffed in a Halliburton. Like a nuclear footballer. Yeah, like a nuclear footballer. Like one of those bank guys who's going to the next meeting. That's what I would do. This person, Shelby, saw Dana at a mall one day, and Dana walked by and asked in a mock English accent, are you low on funds today, Mr. Shelby, and handed him a $20 bill. Here you go. Low on funds.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Just giving out $20 bills at the mall. Another person who went to school with him here, Kathy, said that he was driven as a kid even. And she said that was like his father. She said, I remember sitting and talking with him on the phone and he would be writing letters to people in businesses he admired. What a fucking right. What a boring kid.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
What if my kid was right as a child was writing letters to CEO Mattel? I'd be like, dude, what are you doing? This isn't what you're supposed to – you're supposed to be into, like, music and, like, things that make you feel shit and, like, you know.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You have decades for your soul to die, you know what I'm saying, and start caring about business and all that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's amazing. It's wonderful. You can hold all the little guns. So, Mr. Kenner, thank you for these Star Wars figures. Excellent. Is that his name? I don't know. I think it was Kenner that put those out. Kenner Toys. There was Hasbro and Kenner and all those fucking... Oh, yeah, Hasbro, too.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, she said that, that he would be writing letters. She said that he didn't say much about his parents. She said his mom was nice and his father was into his business. That's that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said he had a wild side, too, where he'd get in trouble and do shit, but his parents would either ignore it or cover for him. That's how it works. Like a lot of rich kids, essentially.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yep. Before he could get a driver's license, he would sneak off and steal his father's Lincoln Continental. Even when he even when he get caught, though, he weren't wouldn't get in any trouble. It wasn't a big deal. His friend said his parents were totally blind to everything he did. One night, him and his friend decided to what they called TP a house, which is to wrap it in toilet paper.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Obviously, yeah, people I don't know if people around the world know what TP is. I don't know. People listen from other countries. We do. Yeah. You TP shit. And there you go. So they ran out of paper. Dana left for more, they said. So he returned with a bottle of vodka, a tomato, and some eggs.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And we're going to make some jokes. That's how that works here. What we don't do, though, is we never make jokes about the victims or the victims' families.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Well, he smeared the tomato and the eggs on the inside of this family's car while the other guy was wrapping up the thing. They were like, what did you do? So the family figured out who did it. Dana's friend confessed and said, yeah, me and Dana did this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Dana said, I don't know what you're talking about. That's crazy. I was never there. I know nothing.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The inside of the car. And a tomato, too. He's a dick. Goddamn, man. And his parents believed him and fought for him, even though he obviously fucking did it. Yeah. This was a friend of his house that he did this to. This was like a girl he knew.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Jesus. The young lady he was friends with said Dana categorically denied it. His parents stuck up for him. It was very sad to see his values were so warped that he couldn't admit it when something went wrong. It was just a prank. But ever since then, I lost respect for him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When he was in high school, his dad bought him a Mercedes, which is what you should do for a high school student, obviously. Jesus Christ. No, you don't buy a kid a Mercedes, first of all.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. See? I mean, there's a line that you cross there. So if that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a crazy story. If you think true crime and comedy should never go together, well, I don't know what you're doing here, first of all. But you may not be what you think. So check it out. Stick around. Either way, no complaining later.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's a salary. 200 bucks a week in the 80s he's making, this kid.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You wouldn't even have time to spend that if you were in the ninth grade. Yeah. What would you buy? After three months, you'd have everything you want. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That is crazy. One time, Dana wrecked the family car, or his dad's car, near the family's beach home, which they have a couple of, by the way. Dale covered for him by pretending he was the one who was driving. He told the cops he crashed it, not his licenseless child here. Then he bought him another Mercedes. Sure. Of course.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So the one of the guy who works with him, with the father, Dale said, but that's really that was really Glees doing. She was compensating for what Dale was doing to him. So, yeah, he had these like parents going back and forth, dad being very tough and then mom being very soft. And it, you know, which doesn't doesn't add up to a middle ground upbringing, just fucks you all up.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It is. And they her friend, his friend said that, you know, Glee was always only trying to be a good mother. But she also said there wasn't anything Dana wanted that he didn't get. And also he told this is another thing he told lies about his parents and told weird lies. Dana. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
One time Dana told a friend of his to drop him off across the street from his house because, quote, that's where his real father lived. OK, that's odd. So the mother said that this friend's mother said Dana talked about visiting his real father in Europe. So the mother said, I mentioned that to Glee. We thought Dale was his stepfather at that point. She said, no, Dale is his father. He just lies.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
This week in Sunnyside, California, when a slaughter takes place in a suburban home, detectives scramble to figure out if this was a random act for the public to fear or a very calculated attack for a very specific reason. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrogallo.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Said Dana came up with different kinds of stories like that. I kind of thought at times he lived in a fantasy, not in the real world. It's a lot. It's pretends. It's really weird. Now, they end up going to the Catholic high school, San Joaquin Memorial, even though they're not Catholic. It's just a good high school. So they go there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
One person from high school, a young lady said he was just so different and mature compared to other students. He didn't seem concerned about the usual like football games. He said he'd wear a suit and tie to school. That's crazy. Which was odd. They had a uniform with like a sweater, but he just wore a suit and tie instead, which they were like, I guess that's okay.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She said he wore a trench coat sometimes. He just looked like he was going to the office, this guy, and always carried a briefcase.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
13, 14 years old. Trenchcoat, suit, tie, briefcase. Ah, boy. Fucking traffic out there today. I'll tell you what. He told his friends that he had traded securities on the floor at the New York Stock Exchange. Okay. As a child, and he was always talking about money and idolized Michael Milken.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Let's just say that. That said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody. Let's all clear the lungs here. Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. All right. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's go. We're going to California this week. We're going to Sunnyside, California.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
If you don't know who Michael Milken is, he's the guy that Michael Douglas' character in Wall Street is based on. He's a huge scumbag who went to prison for insider trading and stock market. Basically, the crash of 87, huge responsible part of it. Him and people like him caused that shit. So there you go. That's who his idol is. Perfect.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Dale's company here now, we'll talk about dad, he's at this point owner and president of Western Piper Sales Inc., the airplane company we talked about, also owns two different farms that have a combined total of 320 acres of fig and pistachio trees in Merced County as well. So a lot here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, the guy who Purcell who started worked for Dale said he began selling airplanes for Dale in 1978 and kept going because of the money. He said not he didn't like working for Dale, but the money was good. He said his relationship with Dale was a lot like the one between Dale and Dana. He treated me like a shithead son, basically. He said, you have to call it a love hate relationship.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
For 14 years, I'd go home every night tied up in knots because of him. He was the ultimate manipulator. He was one of the best there was at cowing you down, making you feel no good. That's Dale. So he said then he would make a big sale, and Dale would ask him, what have you done for me lately, though? What have you done for me lately? That sale was two days ago. Now what are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Making you feel like shit. So at one point he was hospitalized with cancer, Purcell, the guy who works for Dale. And Dale canceled his insurance while he was in the hospital getting treatments for cancer. He canceled his insurance. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And Purcell said, I asked him, how could you do such a thing? Hang me out like that. He said, it's not my fault that you smoke.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Wow. Yeah. Okay. But you still have insurance. That's.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That is crazy, man. So another friend said he cared more about more money, but it was hard to see. He was in his own favorite charity, meaning Dale. His hobby was counting money, and he could never get enough. At one point, he had $10 million in cash in the bank, and he thought he was a poor man. Still felt like that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said we'd have customers come in really rich customers worth 100 million and more. And he'd say to me, I shudder to think about his money. He was in awe. Yes, I hated him much of the time, but I admired him, too. He said that his relationship with Dana was really weird to witness. He said Dale wasn't physically abusive. He never hit his kids.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
One of those fucking guys. He's got to talk shit about him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Okay. Dana is in college. Yeah. Now, in high school, he's almost a straight-A student, but he didn't get into Stanford University. Didn't get in. Now, Stanford's a top-tier university. It's very hard. And a couple of B-pluses will fuck that up for you if you want to go there. Your SATs have to be perfect. They have to have all the extracurriculars, which he doesn't have. Things like that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, I know there's going to be some controversy here just for the fact that it's Fresno is what it is.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's nowhere near good enough now.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You have to have all sorts of other shit there. But he was very pissed off about this. He claimed it was only because he wasn't a minority that he wasn't let in. That's what he said. So he went to Santa Clara University, which is near San Jose up there. So it's still within a few. Isn't that where Steve Nash went to college, I think?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
During his freshman year, he obtained a card from the University of California State school system that said he was a faculty member. You go, what does that get you? What, a coffee in the machine in the teacher's lounge? No, it gets you textbooks.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So instead of buying textbooks, he would write to the publishing companies, claim he was an instructor, and interested in previewing a book for a class, and they'd just send him one. And get free text. And he'd get free textbooks. He'd also use the same techniques to get books for people he knew, dorm people.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said he'd run his own little entrepreneurial scams like that, said Chris Turner, who lived two doors down from him in college. He's like, he'd always be doing shit like that. A philosophy professor caught Yule, caught Dana plagiarizing a paper for a business ethics class. Yeah. I mean, that is wonderfully ironic. Like, you just sit him down and go, you see what we're doing here, right?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Some places have it as a part of Fresno, as like a neighborhood of Fresno, but many, many other places like Sperling's and niche and Wikipedia, even all these others have it as a suburb here. That's sort of, you know what I mean? It's a census designated suburb is the way they do it. So,
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You see the irony in this, I hope. This is wild here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Holy shit. I'm giving you an F for this. So he was suspended from the honors program as a result of that. Yeah, which makes sense. One kid here who was a roommate of Dana for a fall quarter of their freshman year said he remembers Dana returning to their room shortly after a professor assigned a paper topic with a tall stack of books in his arms that he knew that Dana was never going to read.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said, what the fuck are you doing? Why did you do that? And he said that Dana only checked the books out so other students couldn't get them. He didn't want them to get good grades, even if he wasn't going to do the work.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said he'd do all sorts of off-the-wall things just because he thought he was more special. Everything was a competition to him, and he had to be better than everybody else. Even his student housing, he moved into an exclusive dormitory with apartment. They were apartment suites. They weren't dorm rooms. It was called Casa Italiana.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, and unlike your usual kind of cafeteria that these dorms often have, Casa Italiana Dining Hall has, this is a wild quote, an intimate feel with classical Italian music quietly playing in the background, thin transparent curtains hanging over the windows, clean white tablecloths draped over the three long dining tables.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
All 59 students, residents of the dorm, including the resident minister and chef, gather here every weeknight to eat a specially prepared Italian dinner.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I need to go. I need to have some veal franchise right now if I'm going to college.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
One of these dinners during one of them, Dana told the resident director, Patty Kirsten, or Kustron, Nothing but lies here. She asked him what his plans were for the upcoming Thanksgiving Thanksgiving vacation. Dana said he'd be flying to New York City to interview for a summer internship with the New York Stock Exchange. Not true at all.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So they were like, oh, wow, that's interesting here. So the lady said it was like, is he for real or is he just trying to impress me?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, it's both of those. Yeah. He wishes he was for real, but he's not. Another student here who became a friend of his in the dorms said that he was very intelligent, very assertive and created the impression, though, Dana did, that he was wealthy but responsible with his wealth.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You know, he's all buttoned up, said he had he had a very good computer and hardware in his room, but I never saw him wave money. Like he had expensive things. His clothes were expensive, but he was never waving money around. Another person said that he said it was crazy. He said he found it very ironic that Dana got an A in ethics. He said this guy was smart. Very, very smart.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, Fresno is an interesting place. It's in central California, about three hours to San Francisco, four hours to L.A. So you're right in the middle of everything there. Kind of like the mountains are just to the east of there and the north. To go to Reno, you can't just make a straight shot. You have to go this weird circuitous route around mountains that –
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said you just didn't know what his limits were. The thing that was striking about this person was his sense of moral bankruptcy. I'm just I'm not just saying this, you know, to be a whatever. He was like, I'm not just saying this because I'm an asshole. I don't like him or he stole my girlfriend or something. It's True.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Morally bankrupt, obsessed with money and social status. What he would do at college, though, at Santa Clara, he would just start attributing his father's accomplishments to himself. He'd say, yeah, I'm a wealthy entrepreneur because his dad's a wealthy entrepreneur.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A Santa Clara newspaper and Santa Clara University yearbook both printed stories on Yule in 1990 depicting him as a self-made millionaire who was enjoying the luxuries afforded by his business success. The yearbook blurb was called Flying High on Wall Street. I don't think he's ever been to New York, the state, the city, anywhere.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It said that Dana was a stockbroker, an aircraft salesman, and president of his own aircraft dealership. His father does two-thirds of those things, but not him. It ran on November 21, 1990, in a neighborhood edition of the San Jose Mercury News. Also, it got picked up from the Santa Clara newspaper, describing him as a teen mogul.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The article describes his clothes, his gold Mercedes with the Yule Co. license plates.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yep, but it's all bullshit. Here's a sample of the article. With his short cropped hair and lean athletic build, Yule looks like the typical college sophomore. Yet get him talking about his business dealings and his eyes begin to sparkle. He recounts with great enthusiasm his days starting in elementary school when he began reading the Wall Street Journal and purchasing stock with his allowance.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Huh. In sixth grade, Ewell invested $2,000, his life savings, in an aircraft manufacturer just before it was taken over by a larger company. He made $8,000 in the deal. None of that's true. No. He made up details like that. Like, it's crazy. The reporter said her name is Shelby Grad. She ended up working for the Los Angeles Times later on. She said that she was suckered.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She said the University Affairs Office proposed the article and vouched for Dana.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She said that Dana drove this guy past an air freight business that he claimed to own. She didn't. The guy said he had a whole press packet. He showed me a lot of awards he had won, programs he had done. He had pictures of himself in front of airplanes. I guess he convinced me that he was really in business and had some grasp of financial markets.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, when his friends from home heard about all of this, they described it as, quote, typical Dana. That's what he does.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
We know him. That's the problem. And his high school buddy, one of his best friends from high school, Mike Poindexter, said that Dana was embarrassed when word of the publicity reached Fresno. That embarrassed him. He was like, oh, shit. Didn't know I was going to get caught by people I know. Yeah, that's pretty interesting.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It takes like five hours to go what should take two if you flew, you know, if you went how the crow flies.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A longtime friend of Glee asked Glee about it and said, what are you going to do? And Glee just said, Dana's taking care of it. Like, you know, it was a misunderstanding. The lady misunderstood her. The article person, you know, those journalists, you can't trust them. That's what she said. They just made up a bunch of stuff. Yeah. So now after learning about all these lies that he told. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The Ewells, Dale and Glee, modified their estate plan slightly.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
To structure it so he doesn't get a lot of money right away if anything should happen or things like that. To structure his money out because they're like, he is a little bit crazy here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Um, they also, a lot of people said that Dale was planning on ending his financial support for Dana once he graduated from college. So that's a problem now. Um, yeah. So from 1992, uh, here from the, that article, the San Jose Mercury, they talk about him saying he's a self-made millionaire.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Um, he's turned, they call him a young mogul selling mutual funds and converting a bankrupt airplane dealership into a $4 million business while still in his teens. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Well, he's wealthy, so maybe I'll fucking just bleed off some of his wealth and that'll work.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He's fighting to get out of Fresno, California is what he's doing.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You just explained a lot of the financial system in a very short amount of time.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. So Yule was quoted as saying, when I go into class, I drop all of my money and companies and think of the teacher and Plato. Not Play-Doh, Plato, the philosopher. That's what he's thinking. I don't think about all of this. I only think about what's in front of me. He said that he had discussed his wealth only with close friends. You know, I don't let everybody know this, he's saying.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I'm not a braggart or anything. That is fucking hilarious, man. Then another article said, by the time he was a high school senior, the company he had formed had grossed over $2.7 million, making freshman Yule one of the youngest and most successful entrepreneurs anywhere in the United States.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Got to get out of here. Even if the fights aren't in Fresno, I'm winning. So this is about four and a half hours to Lomita, California. That's our last California episode. Cooking up murder. That was the chef and the whole that whole thing. That was pretty crazy. This is in Fresno County. Area code five, five, nine. Little bit of history here. Sunnyside used to be known as Malter Morrow.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So at this point, 92, that's what he's doing. He's in college and, you know, being kind of a scumbag killing it. Yeah, but I'm sure enjoying himself. Tiffany is a graduate student at Fresno State at this point. Family's doing very well besides Dana being a bit of a douche. They own the business, like we said. They have the farms. They also have substantial investments and all things like that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The family was so well off, but they lived a very modest lifestyle. The house they live in, it's not a crazy house. It's a 3,000 square foot house. It's not a crazy house. It's a decent size. It's a nice, comfortable house, but it's not like a mansion or anything like that. Their financial, they have a lot of money here. This is in 1992.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They have an estimated $8 million in all their shit, which is like about $17, $18 million nowadays. I'll bet it's more than that. That's not bad. That's what it is adjusted for inflation. I have the number. Okay. Not like I did research or anything on this fucking thing we're talking about. I just assumed. So that's how much.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And Dana knew how much this was because he helped his dad type up a statement of net worth on about April 1st, 1992. It detailed the family's holdings, including $2.6 million in cash. Wow. $675,000 in stocks and bonds, $1.1 million in pension and profit-sharing fund, $1.9 million in farmland. All total, their net worth was $7,974,500. Doing pretty well. Which is very good.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And Dana and Tiffany are set to inherit each of the estate in the will. Because that's another reason why they were doing this. They could break it up. You know how it goes. Dana wants to be an investment banker. That's his big deal here. That's what he wants to be. An investment banker. A douchiest. Which sounds boring, but I guess you can make a lot of money if you're a criminal.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No moral compunction whatsoever. You can really do great in that. So Easter weekend 1992 comes. This is April 18th, 19th is a Saturday, Sunday there of 1992. Now, Dana, Glee, Dale, Tiffany, the whole family spend Easter weekend of 1992 at the family beach house near Watsonville.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Not bad. They arrived at varying times on Thursday and Friday. Tiffany and Glead drove from Fresno. Dale flew from Fresno in one of his planes. And Dana drove down from Santa Clara with about, what did we say, about a three-hour drive. where he attended school. So there he is. Now that's the weekend. Sunday, April 19th, that's Easter Sunday. Dana and Dale played tennis together in the morning.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A little tennis game. Then the family had lunch and took a walk on the beach. What a fucking nice day. Jesus. Not bad at all. Dana left around 2.15 to 2.30 p.m. and drove to Morgan Hill where his girlfriend Monica Zent lives. He's going to have Easter dinner with his girlfriend's family.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He remained there with his family or with her and her family, Monica, until sometime that evening when he and Monica together returned to school. So that's how that goes. Now, Dana assumed his mother and sister left the beach house shortly after he did, because that's what they were saying. We're going to take off.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Dale returned to Fresno by plane, arriving at the Fresno air terminal just before 3.30 p.m. So everybody kind of left about the same time.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You know, two something. All right, we're going here. He called Dale called Marlene Reed, who is Western Piper's business manager from the office phone sometime around 4 p.m. So he went in, did some office shit, even though it's Easter Sunday. But when he called his family, then Dana called later on and nobody was home at his house.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's what it used to be. Well, it was named after a guy, apparently, here. It was named after a postmaster, George H. Malter. So they were going to call it that. But then they changed it to Sunnyside, because that sounds way more welcome. Sunnyside? Sounds like there's a beach nearby, and there isn't. Trust me.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No one answered later on when he called when he was like, they should be home by now. So he was unable to reach anybody again the next day when he called on Monday. And he also called the office and they said that Dale hadn't been in. And he's usually up that his office manager's ass calling her 20 times a day. She hasn't even heard from him. She's like, what's going on here?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No, it's just it's weird. Yeah, that has to feel like what's going on. Why isn't he bothering me? You'd be expecting these phone calls by now. Just reflex. So that next day, Monday, April 20th, 1992, Dana expresses concern about his family to Monica's father, John Zent, who is an FBI agent at the time. So he says, I don't know what's going on. I call my family. No one's answering.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Marlene Reed here can't get a hold of my dad, and they're attached all the time. He's calling her, yelling at her for one thing or another. So they didn't understand it. So Marlene Reed, the office manager, told Dana, why don't you talk to one of your parents' neighbors? I'm sure you have somebody's phone number, and ask them to go check the house. So he said, yeah, maybe I'll do that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
But then the next day, he hadn't done it that day. Then the next morning, Dale didn't show up for work again. And this Marlene's like, you got to call and see what's going on here. Figure this out. So that's when he called the neighbor on Tuesday, April 21st, called the neighbor to ask the neighbor to check out the house because no one's answering the phone.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She's the one lying face down on the kitchen floor in a pool of her own blood. And I assume an even less perfect skull at this point. So she'd been shot once in the back of the head with the bullet exiting her forehead like a, like a fucking mob hit.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's cold, man. That was cold for like a slow 24 year old girl or whatever. That's, that's brutal, man. Um, Dale, he was found lying face down in the hallway, uh, He'd been shot once in the back of the neck with the bullet exiting below his right eye.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So back. These are all from the back.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Glee was lying partially on her back and partially on her left side in the office, like on a couch there. She'd been shot four times. The other two are like clean hits. This is four times, including once just below the eye with the bullet exiting the back of her head.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
These are all through and throughs, too. Now, they said rigor mortis and lividity had set in as to all three victims. So they have been here a while. It takes a while for lividity to set in. So they know that they've been here. They appear to have been shot at the location where they fell based on spatter and blood, obviously blood pools and things like that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, the cops, as they're walking through, the one observes that the house appeared to have been ransacked. So, like, maybe this is a burglary. There's ransacking taking place. They were also looking for signs of forced entry.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Based on this officer's observation of the bodies, as well as information given to her by paramedics prior to her entry, she concluded the death is obviously a murder, clearly. There's also holes in the walls, which appear to be bullet holes, some of which this officer initially saw and some of which they took her a while to find.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Well, rivers are not... You know what I mean? People don't go, oh, nothing's more beautiful than a river. But sunny side sounds like you're going to wake up to waves crashing on your front door. The sunny side of the tracks.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And in the case of Dale's body, a blood patter spatter that suggested high velocity gunshot evidence. So they determined that a search needed to be made for the bullets themselves to try to have comparisons here. She also needed to inspect the underneath of the bodies, but couldn't do that until the coroner arrived and took possession of them here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So the deputy coroner and pathologist arrived about 5.45 that afternoon, inspected the scene and the position of the bodies in order to help determine the cause of death, and the bodies are removed by 8 p.m. Now, the police officer here went to each room of the house, noting the layout and looking for items that may have been associated with the bodies.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
She was specifically looking for signs of forced entry, details concerning the ransacking. They said the appearance of which was present in virtually every room. So it looks like every room has been trashed. Blood evidence, firearms evidence, fiber evidence, latent fingerprints, all that kind of shit. The walkthrough excluded the master bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
or included the master bedroom, I'm sorry, where she observed two rifles and a shotgun, several boxes of ammunition, a handgun shipping box, a gun carrying case, and a loose 9mm bullet. Okay. This detective said this was a... In their experience, this is a complicated crime scene, and you don't want to fuck anything up because something weird is going on here. This is... It's a burglar.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's a robbery, but it's not a robbery. And there's something up here. So they're really taking this extra careful. They said that the pathologist could not determine the order in which Glee's wounds were inflicted or in which the victims were killed. But they have a theory that the women returned. Tiffany and Glee returned home first, entered the house first. or one right after the other.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Tiffany was shot first, having been taken by surprise when she passed by the killer's location. The killer then emerged and shot and wounded Glee, who retreated into her office where she was killed. And Dale was killed last because he came in later. Period. So they said the times of death were estimated at between approximately 5 and 6 p.m., So sometime after 2 or 3 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
on April 21st, this day that they're looking through the house, detectives were conducting an investigation of the crime scene. They met with another sheriff's lieutenant, met with Dana Yule and John Zent in the lieutenant's office at the sheriff's office there. John Zent is the girlfriend's father who's an FBI agent.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Fresno is Spanish for ash tree, by the way, in case you're wondering. Is that right? Yeah. At first, when people first got here, there was land disputes and natural disasters. Floods caused tons of damage everywhere. Fires were breaking out everywhere. In 1882, the greatest of the early day fires wiped out an entire block of the city of Fresno and then was followed by another big fire in 1883.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, Yule and Dana and Zent were very curious and wanted information about what had happened at the scene. I would assume if that was your family, you'd want to know that kind of shit. Now, the sheriff did not have that much information at the time. He was aware detectives were conducting the investigation of the crime scene, so they told Dana that his family had been murdered.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I said probably occurred sometime between 3 and 5 p.m. when they then they had reached, you know, they had gotten confirmation that it was his parents and his sister and all of that. So at some point during the meeting, Dana started stated a willingness to fully cooperate with the investigative efforts and, you know, find who killed my parents basically here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So they believe that the killer was probably waiting either inside or in the bushes just outside and snuck in after them type of deal here. And that's what shot him from the back. They never even got the chance to bring in their suitcases from the Jeep that they arrived. They're still in the car. Yeah, they were going in, put some stuff down, probably go out, grab the suitcase.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They didn't even get a chance to do that. So they said that Glee was shot as she sat in a chair in the living room and then she got up and ran. Tiffany ran to the kitchen to get away but was shot as well. Yeah. So they said that Dale, they know that he arrived more than 30 minutes after them.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He had made a call and not only to his office manager but to another aircraft dealer to argue with him before making the short drive home. Okay. He parked his Lincoln Continental in the garage. There's mail scattered all around him. So I think he came in with a stack of mail that they'd gotten over the weekend and came in through the back door and started down a hallway.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They believe that the gunman was in a bedroom off the hallway. As he walked past the bedroom door, they think the shooter just stepped into the hallway behind him and shot him. They said he probably never saw a fucking thing come and didn't know what happened. So the murder weapon, they suspect the murder weapon is a nine millimeter, obviously, that they figured that out.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And they said those weapons are usually automatics. So they're wondering where shell casings are because there's no shell casings. So we got nine shit, but we got no shell casings. Yeah. People who clean up shell casings are like mafia hitmen. You know what I mean? That's not a normal thing to clean up your shell casings.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's like much more. They like revolvers a lot of times, too, because there's no casings and they're reliable. They work.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Not a ton of them out there. And they did find a box of nine millimeter Winchester cartridges containing 18 rounds of ammunition in the master bedroom and the loose round located on the master bedroom floor as well, which is odd. So analysis of the bullets and tool marks showed the bullets recovered from the crime scene almost certainly came from this box of cartridges.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. So the investigation revealed that Dale had purchased that box of ammunition together with a nine millimeter Browning pistol in 1971. Twenty one years ago, the pistol, which should have been in the residence, was missing as well. Oh, that's not good. There did not appear to be any signs of a struggle other than the ransacking, which that's not a struggle. It's a different thing.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The authorities concluded the burglary had been staged and this happened for a reason. Now, part of this they're wondering is, you know, Dale has pissed off a whole shitload of people in his business dealings.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A lot of people and a lot of people have a lot of money, too. He's pissed off. So, you know, that's a big factor where they're like, Jesus, there's a lot of people that could have wanted to kill this guy. But why would they do it in his home where his wife and daughter are, too? Why wouldn't they just kill him when he's out in his, you know, out of his business or something?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Get him when he's leaving the office one night.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No, it's weird. They said that there was no signs of forced entry. All the doors and windows were secured with the exception of the front and back doors that were unlocked when the sheriffs came. The skylights didn't appear to have been damaged or disturbed. The alarm, which is normally armed, was not on and had not been triggered because they were home. So they probably came in, turned it off.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So there's a lot. People brought sheep here in 1865. They had sheep, and they started to – they've gone really through a lot of transitions. First there was sheep, and then there was wheat, and then raisins became a big thing here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So what happens is they complete the crime scene processing on April 24th. And the residence is turned back over to Dana. It's your house now. Nobody else. So he had the locks changed that evening, which is probably smart. You don't know if this murderer had a key to the house or something like that. So Dana and the detective walked through the house and discussed what had been found.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Dana requested inventory of everything that had been removed from the home. During the detective's contacts with Dana on the 23rd and 24th of April, Dana did not indicate any resistance or problem with the investigation, except that he was upset about a padlock being cut off the back gate. You cut off my $9 master lock. What the fuck, man? Wow.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Because Dana had showed the detective where a key to the lock was hidden, but she apologized and explained that the sheriff's personnel didn't know there was a key. So they had to cut off the lock to, you know, do their jobs and get in there and crime scene shit in there and stuff like that. So Dana apologized to the detective as he was leaving or she was leaving. So that's how that worked.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, the funeral for this family happens. Four hundred people show up. And the reverend calls Glee the ultimate giver and said Dale was a gentle giant and Tiffany was a delicate flower just ready to bloom. Just ready to bloom. Just ready to pop. And then Dale popped up from his coffin and goes, she's never going to bloom. She's a dud. Hey, up here. She ain't right. It's not going to work.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They were like, put him back in the casket. So friends of Dana said he was very shaken up by the deaths and things like that. But they said he also at the funeral was a little bit odd because he was complimenting friends on their outfits and making a big fuss over the size of one woman's giant diamond engagement ring. Which at a funeral you do. We Italians all gamble at funerals.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
This is just it's that doesn't mean you don't have any empathy or sympathy or you're not sad. You just fucking move on. You make jokes and you I'm a comedian. We are. We make jokes at funerals. That's just what you do. It's can't help it. So the next day, investigators said that Dana hitched his father's ski boat to his mother's Jeep and took a keg of beer and a group of friends out to the lake.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The next day. That'll cheer you right up there. That's all I grieve. Wow. He still had his gold Mercedes when he started driving his father's car and threw out his briefcase and used his father's from now on.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Actually, a guy that – they invented raisins by accident because some guy couldn't pick his grapes for wine, so they dried up on the vine.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I'll just be dead. That's all. Now, under the wills here. Okay. The estate is distributed to a trust. Until Dana turned 25, the amount paid to him was a discretionary amount with the trustee who was obligated to pay enough from income or principal or both to support and educate him. But not, you know, you don't have to give him everything.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Between the ages of 25 and 30, all income would be paid to Dana, although any payment from the principal would remain discretionary with the trustee. So he can take the profits of things, but he can't take the chunks. At age 30, one half of the principal would be distributed to Dana, with the remaining half distributed to him at age 35. So they have it all laid out.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
There's a lot of different things he has to hit here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Well, no, that one you actually had to produce, though. This one, all he has to do is live to 35, and then he gets all his money.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, Ricky Williams had to get like fucking 1900 yards a year to make fucking minimum salary or some shit. So his uncle obtained a copy of the will shortly after the bodies were found and informed Dana that it contained no burial instructions. And Dana said something like, well, OK, but what about the money?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, well, we know he loves money. So when informed about the provisions, including the age stipulations, he became very angry and he pounded on a table as he lurched out of his chair and asked why his father had done that to him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Went on thirty five. Big fucking deal. What about till then? Yeah. So now in order to assist him in compiling family financial records, Michael Dowling, it was a I guess a money guy that works for them, gave you all access to an office in Dowling's building and provided a telephone there that you was authorized to use for business affairs.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They were like, hey, these are sweet and good. We should eat these. What's –
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
During the first couple months following the murders, Dana was at the office almost every day. This is at the Western Piper office. Telephone records for the office show from May through July 1992 showed telephone calls to the residences of friends, parents, paint and body shop, just all kinds of shit here. Oh, boy.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
In early May 1992, bank accounts and insurance proceeds in the amount of $317,888.47, which were not part of the probate estate, were turned over to Dana, as were a portion of Tiffany's approximately $119,000 in assets and some $375,000 in certificates of deposit.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Let's box these and don't tell anybody they have more sugar than three Pepsis.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
There's also a preliminary distribution from the estate from which Dana received various effects worth approximately $65,000 and his Mercedes. Now, although he wasn't permitted to run Western Piper sales as Dana wanted to, Dana was hired as vice president of the company at a salary of $2,000 per week.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Eight grand a month in addition to what he's getting and he's not running the place. He doesn't have the responsibility. Now, the detectives are like, this is a little bit weird. The way he is with the money and all that, he's a little bit too concerned. You at least give lip service to, oh, I'm sad my family's dead. You know the money's coming. Just chill out.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, this is weird. Detective Curtis walked Dana through the crime scene and thought his reactions to the crime scene were highly unusual and afterwards said, quote, that kid's dirty.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So right after the homicides, Dana was living with one of his uncles before he got back in the house. He moved out of there within a couple weeks and said he was staying with a friend in the neighborhood. He specifically said he was not living in the family house, which he definitely was.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Oh, yeah, yeah. They're full of all sorts of fiber in there. That's great. Pants shitters is what they are. Then they found oil here in 1910. Yeah. The Coalinga Oil Field, the largest field in Fresno County. It was the most richly productive oil field in California. They had a huge 1909, a big gusher. And it was the biggest in California up until that moment.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Because within a month of the funeral, he was giving his old high school friend Michael Poindexter a tour of the house. So he was definitely in there. He was living in the house at the time, despite the fact that only some of the cleanup work had been done. There's still bullet holes, blood, and brain matter on the walls, and he's living there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
There's fucking brain on the walls, and he's living in this house. You can't live in that. No, you got to get the professional cleaning crew to come in there, do that, paint the walls. This is crazy. So that's wild. I guess Dana told Poindexter, quote, they will never solve this case. They're a bunch of dummies.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And then he told Poindexter that he didn't have to talk to the detectives if they want to talk to you. You don't have to talk to them, you know. Fuck them. So April 30th, Dana drops out of school.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, like I said, he tried to take over the business, but he ends up being the vice president. And Purcell, the guy from before, said he came in the first few months and acted like he owned the place, but that didn't set well with the employees. He didn't have the experience to own it. He kind of did own the place is the problem, but he can't run the place.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said that he just spent time on the phone with the door closed the whole time. That's all he did. So May 1992, the cops are checking all around. They decide they need to dig into Dana a little bit more. So they're questioning friends and acquaintances traveling to Washington, Utah, California, college, Santa Clara, everywhere. They meet in Utah with Michael Poindexter.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Poindexter is going to Utah State University at this time. And like I said, he was one of Dana's best friends in high school. Poindexter said the questions made it clear to him that Dana was under suspicion by these cops. He said this is this is Poindexter talking about the cop. He said he told me we're trying to clear Dana, but I told him, no, you're not. You're trying to nail him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The detectives questioned Poindexter about his whereabouts the weekend of the killings and determined that he was in Utah. So, you know, couldn't happen. Poindexter said they acted like I had done it. And I thought, right, he's going to hire a friend to get it done on the cheap. That's how you. What are you, an idiot? You know, hire your college friend. Yeah, real shrewd.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So, you know, that's one of those that's like toilet paper or toothpaste. You buy quality when you're talking about hit men. So he said the detectives questioned him about the interest that he and Dana shared in Joe Hunt, the founder of the Billionaire Boys Club. Remember that whole mess? No. We'll do a bonus episode on that, but it's from the newspaper here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The highly publicized group was a confederation of ambitious young Southern Californians whose efforts to make a fortune through investments ended when members were involved in two murders, as they always are.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
This Hunt guy was serving life sentence for the 84 robbery and murder of an associate of his. So Poindexter said that Dana, he and Dana became fans of Hunt after watching a television movie on the Billionaire Boys Club. He said they were impressed by the ability of young and inexperienced businessmen to make big profits in the commodities market.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
These people always miss the other part of the story where they were corrupt businessmen. Doing illegal shit and then murdering each other for it. They just ignore that part. It's like watching just the middle, about a half hour into The Wolf of Wall Street for the next 45 minutes. If you just watch that part.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Not the beginning, not the end, not any of that part.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And yeah, it actually it was such a big deal. They shut down the Los Angeles Stock Exchange for a day so that all the stock people could go look at it. They took a train and went and looked. Just go look at it. Yeah. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So he said that Dana wrote to Hunt in prison. Hunt wrote back, but only because he thought that Dana was a girl because his name is Dana. He was asking for pictures of her tits and shit. That's what he wanted. They're like, oh, fucked up.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He's like, I mean, I'll send them to you, but I don't know if you're going to want to jerk it to him. So a reporter asked Poindexter what the at one point someone said something about the murder could be justified. And a reporter asked Poindexter what that meant. And he said, not for me because of my moral code. And they said, well, what about for Dana? And he said, well, you'd have to ask him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And he said, what did Dana think of his parents? He said he admired his father for his tough business sense. What about his mother? Poindexter said, nice lady. OK, they said, could he have killed them? And Poindexter said, could have. Anything's possible. That's crazy. So just a few weeks after the murders, a new name pops up here. Joel Patrick Radovich, Radovich, Radovich. His name is weird.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
R-A-D-O-V-C-I-C-H. Radovich. Joel, we'll call him. Joel. Joel here. Joel. Joel. He's a college friend of Dana who abruptly dropped out of college right after the murders. And so he came under a bit of suspicion. They look into him a little bit. They find out he has a huge preoccupation with guns and explosives. Loves them. Loves making bombs and silencers and shit. That's his jam.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So the detectives here and their team set out to obtain background information on Dana as well as to look at other possible suspects. In the course, this is when Joel's name was mentioned as being a friend of Ewell's from college. They contacted him on May 7th, 1992 while they were in the Los Angeles area. And they said, listen, we're working on a triple homicide case. They called him up.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said, we're working on a triple homicide case where the parents of a Santa Clara student were the victims. Joel asked, why do you want to talk to me here, basically? Because he said, I've heard about the murders and I know Dana. But I mean, why do you want to talk to me?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said, well, we understand that you used to be a good friend of his and that, you know, I'm conducting a background investigation on him. So, you know, we're talking to everybody. And Joel's response was, are you going to arrest me?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And that field still produces oil and is the eighth largest field in the state of California as well.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Where the fuck did that come from?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Hi, how you doing? We're working on Triple Homicide. There's a guy you know, and we're just asking some background questions. Should I put the cuffs on? Like, what?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
What is happening right now? The detective said, no. What? No. And he said, all right, then I'll talk to you then. Sure. So they met the next day. Almost immediately, Joel brought up his prior question about being arrested again. Am I going to be arrested here? They're like, why would you get arrested?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Because we're asking background questions about a guy who we don't even suspect he's the murderer. What are you talking about? So he said that he thought they were cops from Santa Clara and were harassing him about some shit from Santa Clara. That's what he thought. That's what he told them. He said he first met Dana in the fall of 1990 when they lived in the same dorm at Santa Clara.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
We know that dorm. Joel said that they were friends and would hang out together, but that their friendship was limited to school and they did not communicate outside of a school setting. He said he had been to Fresno one time in the spring of 91 and had met Dana's parents at their house. And Joel also related that he had spent a couple of days at the beach house with the Yule family as well.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Reviews of this town. This is for Fresno County, for the whole county as a whole here. So we'll just do a few of them here. Here is four stars. One thing I like about my Fresno County is the mayor and many volunteers help keep the city clean by cleaning the highways and streets.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said his last contact with Dana was in the winter quarter of 1991 and that he had not been to Fresno since his graduation from college in December 1991. She didn't graduate then when he was asked about his whereabouts on Easter Sunday.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He replied that he was at Hamrick's Paint and Body Shop, which is, by the way, one of the numbers that Dana called many, many times while he was at the office for the first few weeks after the murders. Hamrick's Paint and Body Shop. Joel also related that Dana had once said that he had owned his own airplane business, though Joel said he knew that Dale was the true owner of the business. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Turns out, though, further investigation, they know each other a little better than we met a few times in college and kicked around. Apparently, they have a very good friendship here. According to school records, Joel began attending Santa Clara in the fall of 1988, while Dana's attendance began in the fall of the following year.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Prior to the spring quarter of 91, their course loads were within the normal range. But beginning that quarter, both took much heavier unit loads than normal. On February 6, 1991, Dana exercised his right under federal law and requested permanent non-disclosure of all academic records. On June 11, 1991, Joel made a similar request.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, they said fewer than 1% of enrolled students request nondisclosure in either temporary or permanent form. So for the two of them to do it together, they said that Dana, you know, that's what they were doing. So Joel and Dana lived in the same dormitory until early 1991 when Joel and two other students were charged with stealing $3,800 worth of furniture from the dorm. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel left Santa Clara after graduating with a business degree. He'd been estranged from his family for several years. He's just hanging out in the L.A. area. Now, other people they talked to from Santa Clara said, oh, yeah, they were really tight, Joel and Dana.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said, we never understood it because we had one guy who was like suit and tie and briefcase, and then Joel's like real shaggy and like real kind of sloppy and not that kind of guy. They said he, you know, he's just a little weird. One guy said Joel was a character. He would ride around on his skateboard in the dorms. He would spit on the walls. He would grind on people.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And I don't mean grinding with your skateboard trucks. I think he means he would hump on people. He's a pig. Yep. It was difficult to see what those two had in common. Uh-huh. And another person said, Joel was shady. I always stayed away from him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Oh, yeah, yeah. That's just what he would do. He would ride around. What is that? Look at how much I don't care about shit. Now I'll destroy shit. I never understood those. Like in school, there would be kids that would do shit like that. Like, I'm going to fuck that thing up. For what? What? What advantage does that give to you?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No, he's Sacramento. Oh, Sacramento. Yeah. So I just see him out there going, listen, guys. You elect me. You elect me. I get a mop. I get a broom. I got put those big yellow dishwashing gloves on and I'm hitting the city. Let's just put it that way.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I'm not doing anything unless I can see a clear advantage in it for me. Do I get something from this? Like just for attention. I guess I didn't. I don't know. I just knew I wasn't getting attention. So I just I wasn't looking for it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
But not indoors. Not indoors. On walls. You spit outside all the time. Not like I'm going to spit while I skate by.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Like, what are you doing on the walls?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He spits on the wall, so then if somebody leans on the wall, he goes, ha-ha. Oh, God damn it, man. That's all it is. Yeah. We all knew those kids in school that were like that, that would do shit just to go, oh, then you're going to get that on you, and I'll laugh. Okay, great.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Why do you want to spit on me, man? Why do you want to be spitting? So Joel left Casa Italiana, the dorm, and the college in 1991 after he and the students were charged with stealing furniture from the building... And according to the court records, the charges were dropped after the school was reimbursed for the thirty eight hundred dollar loss.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So June 1992, during the first week of June, Joel was seen at Dana's house, the Park Circle murder house. When Dana wasn't even there, he appeared to be living there and had his clothing in the master bedroom. Oh, boy. So we don't know each other very well. But when his parents die, I move into their bedroom. That is fucked.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, Sheriff's Department surveillance of Dana began on June 25, 1992, and will continue for the next year. We'll talk about all this. Surveillance conducted in June 1992 revealed that Dana was living at the Park Circle residence and that Joel was staying there at least part of the time. When they went somewhere together, Dana drove his Mercedes or one of the family vehicles.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Places they went included banks, the office, Western Piper, a property that was part of the estate that they had. Dana also went to some of these places alone. At times, he employed counter-surveillance driving techniques, they said. Dana thinks he's being watched this whole time, by the way. They said that Dana and Joel were also observed separately going to corporate air for helicopter lessons.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
What? Yes. Now, Joel has no known source of income. His parents don't do shit. Prior to his graduation, his mother bought him a car for graduation. And then in December 91, following his graduation, he moved back to the West Hills area and sporadically resided in the family home.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And Joel's mother paid him for doing construction type projects around the house and also deposited small amounts of money in his checking account for food and similar items. Not enough for helicopter lessons.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So other than these amounts, she didn't provide him with money from December 1991 on, from graduation on. She heard he was working piecemeal at places during that time, but didn't personally know if he had a job. So working temp work or construction jobs on and off. To her knowledge, he had no other money available except for a trust fund over which she exercised control.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Watch. You know it. Three stars. I've lived in Fresno County my whole life, and I would say that overall I've had an OK experience. That's three stars. All right. An OK experience. Some days are better than others, but that is everywhere. I would rate my overall experience in Fresno about a seven out of 10.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Other than for his car, she didn't provide any money for him out of the trust fund during the time that this is going on. Friends and other family members didn't know him to have a job aside from the work he did from his mother either. However, despite his lack of funds, Joel was interested in finance while in college and frequently talked about being a millionaire.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
During the summer of 91, he had books sent to the home of college acquaintance Thomas Duong. Some of the books, which were from Paladin Press, concerned building silencers and similar subjects. Joel asked this friend of his if he knew anyone who had a gun for sale. Joel said he wanted something along the lines of an AK-47, but he didn't want to go to a gun shop. You know, I want a street gun.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I'd like a street gun, please. They do in Arizona.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You can go to any pawn shop in Phoenix and get an AK.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I mean, ARs are more popular, but they have AKs. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The one on Indian School says AK-47s right in the fucking window. There's a sign there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No, no, but they'll advertise it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So he said he didn't want to go to a gun shop. Not long after, in October or November 91, Dana began dating Monica Zent, who lived in the same dorm, and he had become friends with her in the fall quarter of 1990. And it was common knowledge within the dorm that Monica's father is an FBI agent. Okay. So Joel and Dana are having a ball. They're Menendez-ing, let's call it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Let's give it a verb here. They're Menendez-ing.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They're still doing it. They're making cash purchases for items such as helicopter flight lessons and communicating via a complex system of pagers and pay phones and all this other type of shit. They're buying jewelry and going out and partying. Oh, boy. They're having a full-on Menendez. That's exactly what they're doing. And this is like two years after Menendez. Really?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That was 89 Menendez happened. So three years later, like you think they'd be going, hey, let's not look to Menendez here. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So November 1st, 1992, newspapers are talking about the case. The Fresno Bee has a big headline. Detectives still digging in the Yule slayings case. And then the sub headline is the lawyer for Dana Yule, son of the murdered couple, says he is being defamed by investigators because they continue to question his associates. They're always talking to everybody he's ever met.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So they said that, you know, this his attorney is pissed off. His attorney said that his client's been devastated by the innuendo that's been going on.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
In a written response to inquiries from The Bee, the newspaper here, the lawyer accused investigators of repeatedly defaming Dana Huell and his reputation by leaving the impression with his friends, business associates, and in his college community that he's a suspect in this horrible crime.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's more like a four star, I think, then that's people who have a little more a little more concrete opinion here. Two stars. It's a giant hat, hot valley that's muggy and filthy. There's lots of drugs, violence, and the Fresno Police Department shoots someone dead just about every day. So there's that great fire department, though. That's their practice.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Dana feels that he's being scapegoated because the investigators have completely been ineffective in finding and prosecuting those responsible. And if, in fact, the sheriff's office is not intending to spread these rumors, then they should make it clear on the record that Dana is not a suspect. The sheriff here said that he's not a formal suspect, but he hasn't been ruled out either.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said that we know that he wasn't in Fresno when it happened. So that's part of it. But they said, we're looking at everybody, including family members. It's a very complex case. Yeah. And that's that. And then the the guy who the lawyer, Michael Dowling, who is administering the trust, he's the trustee.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said that Dana has not been ruled out as a suspect, but that they really don't have anything on him, quote unquote, which makes him sound like he's in the mafia again. Like, it ain't got nothing on him. It'll never stick.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So in a letter to the police last week, the lawyer said Dana Yule adamantly denies any participation in this heinous crime. He's cooperated with you in spite of the fact that he considers your investigation and innuendos to be unprofessional and offensive. Offensive. If you intend to prosecute Dana Ewell, there are legal procedures.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
If you intend to just harm him by rumor and innuendo, please be advised that he is prepared to seek every legal remedy for your actions. Please be advised my retainer is paid and this motherfucker will use me. So around that time, that's when these articles are appearing and it's kind of popping back into the public consciousness here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
At the time this article appeared, housekeepers noted that Joel was staying at the murder house with Dana. It appeared that Joel was staying in the master bedroom while Dana occupies his old room, like his childhood room. They also said there was a pistol on one of the nightstands in Dana's room and another handgun on a nightstand in the master bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said that Joel's hair was a dark color at this time and that he kept it fairly short. Housekeepers found empty hair dye bottles, latex gloves, and hair trimmings in the master bedroom and what appeared to be paper ashes in a pot on the stove in the kitchen. They also observed Joel and Ewell looking at a map. He writes this. This is Dana.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
On April 19th, 1992, four wonderful lives ended in tragedy. This is to a newspaper. He wrote this. My father, my mother and my sister were brutally murdered. My world was shattered and my life was changed forever. The reality of a loss like this can hardly be imagined even after this length of time.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And he told all of his friends that the sheriff's department was botching the investigation and he dismissed the two lead detectives as mutton Jeff. And he said they'll there's a cartoon cartoon. Yeah. It's a couple of dogs like sloppy dogs who didn't do anything right and fucked up all the time. He said they they'll never catch the people who killed my family. Never. But they do have a reward.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Apparently, one of Dale's brothers put up twenty five thousand dollars right away. And then a couple of months later, not until October, Dana Dana finally adds another twenty five grand to it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, during this time, they are, like I said, taking helicopter lessons from Mat-Z Flying Service. Dana paid for both he and Joel's lessons with checks totaling $16,377.94. In addition, the flight school received cash payments from Joel totaling $3,400. Joel expressed an interest in pursuing his instrument rating and possibly his commercial rating.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I was going to say. Sounds like Tucson. One star. Fresno is too hot. It is boring. There is no activity for you to do. The little activity that it has, it's too hot to enjoy the entertainment. The buses stop running early. Yikes. Lazy bus driver. Man, so this guy is pissed off because it's still hot out, but the bus isn't running, so he's got to walk. It's not good.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The minimum cost to obtain both would have exceeded $20,000. Although Joel started on the second part of his training, his last flight with this company was on November 8, 1992. He subsequently informed the company that he was going to the Los Angeles area and asked for a refund on the balance of his account. Remember when the maids came back, he wasn't there. He was down in L.A.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A check, which was made payable to Joel, was sent to the murder house. It was endorsed by Joel and Dana and deposited in one of Dana's bank accounts. Payments made to the helicopter place on Joel's account totaled $11,489.61. Dana also buys a $100,000 airplane. a Piper four-seater, and put fucking 50,000 miles on it, just flying all around. Wow. At least the Menendezes didn't fucking buy a plane.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They bought watches and clothes and a fucking Jeep. They didn't buy a plane. That is like ostentatious.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. A plane is like the pinnacle of wealth. I have my own plane. You know what I mean? So November 20th, 1992. While all this is going on, those newspaper articles are just coming out. He's calling a mutton Jeff in the newspaper. Dana comes into the police department to get a handgun that had been removed from the house.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, he wants it back. During the course of the conversation, detectives said they were concerned about Joel and wanted to talk to Dana about him. Like, we've seen some weird stuff with your buddy Joel. Dana responded, quote, I'm out of here. I got what I want and left. They said he jumped up from his chair, goes to take off.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When the detective told Dana they needed his cooperation, he said, I have been. And then he left. Fuck off. Not interested.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Do your job. November 25th, 1992. Letter to the editor of the Fresno Bee. Written by none other than John Zent, FBI agent and Dana's girlfriend's father. He says, letting suspicion linger on Dana Ewell is cruel. That's the headline.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
In response to your article concerning Dana Ewell, November 1st, detective still digging in the slayings case that we talked about, my family believes that both the Fresno Bee and the sheriff's office have without validity tried to link Dana with the death of his family.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's well known to the sheriff's office that Dana was with our daughter having dinner in our Morgan Hill home when the crimes occurred. Evidence, along with witness statements, including my own, fully support Dana's whereabouts. The concept that Dana hired someone to do this crime is really grasping for straws. Perhaps it isn't apparent, but Dana is a victim.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He has lost in one crime all of his immediate family. During the Easter weekend on Saturday with my family, spent a long, enjoyable dinner with Dale, Glee, Tiffany, and Dana at their beach home. The Ewells took great pride in Dana's accomplishments at Santa Clara University and his relationship with our daughter, Monica, also an SCU student.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
We stayed late into the evening, taking a walk on the beach, two families enjoying their children's happiness. Dana's love for his family, his respect for his parents, was mirrored in their love for him. that pride parents have in realizing their kids are doing well. I've been in federal law enforcement working complex criminal investigations for over 21 years.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
In my opinion, there's been a number of improper procedures coupled with a lack of professionalism and objectivity within this case. On that Tuesday, April 21st, when Dana's family was found, earlier in the morning I had called the sheriff's office to request they check the family residence after Dana had received a guarded response from a neighbor he had called for that same purpose.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Realizing there might be a problem at Fresno, I, not the sheriff's office, had Dana and Monica flown with me to Fresno. For that week or more, we stayed with Dana while he, along with surviving relatives, made arrangements for his family's funeral. During that week, Dana made time and was available frequently to the sheriff's office to answer questions and provide any assistance requested by them.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Some have taken note that Dana has a nice car and clothes and goes to an expensive college. Having spoken with Dale and Glee, I know they were very happily providing the best for both Dale and Tiffany. The fact that the Yules had significant financial resources simply made it easier for them to give the best to their children. That is an action any parent would do if money wasn't the issue.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Without question, Dana has suffered great loss compounded by those who would link into this crime without any factual basis. Eventually, someone will be caught who will explain the events surrounding the sad crime, usually after getting off the hook for some other crime. Until then, idle speculation or unfounded implications should be avoided by all. Put yourself in Dana's shoes.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane edition of Small Town Murder. We have some greedy, greedy people today and some very, wow, this is like a Menendez situation going on here. Except not brothers and not, you'll see. It's just weird.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He would gladly forego all the money to simply be with his family again. Our family supports and loves Dana as part of our own. Before this crime and since, he has been a very welcome guest in our house. The harm that has been done to him within Fresno and Santa Clara University will pass, but none of it has been beneficial to solving this crime.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Buses are done. Population 4,468 here. It's like a little enclave, Sunnyside. There's a few more females and males kind of with the national average. Median age is a little over 41, but that's kind of, again, close to the national average, which is like 37 and a half. 61% married. This is very much you get married, you have kids, you move out to here. This is like a safer area in Fresno.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The challenge is to resolve every aspect of the crime and identify the perpetrator, not to simply take aim at Dana in light of one's own limitations or inabilities. Just because you're not smart enough to figure it out, don't just say it's the sun. This is so ballsy of an FBI agent. Right? That's November 25th, December 10th, 1992, in the same Fresno Bee newspaper.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Dana has an ad going in the classified sections. Fur coats. Gorgeous normarts, beige opossum, $400. Ranch mink, $450. Mahogany, $1,000. White fur, $500. Then leaves a phone number. Ask for Dana Yule. He's selling his mom's fur coats with a fucking classified ad with his name in it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
If I found that now, it was probably real easy to find 30-something years ago.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
i'm loading this bitch's shit wow so dana goes back to college in spring of 93 where he graduates in june of 93 yeah while this is happening though narcotics agents and other deputies are pulled off their regular assignments to follow yule and joel all around the bay area and southern california the department invites fbi behavioral experts to study the crime as well um
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So they keep them under close surveillance for several months. In one instance, a detective wore a recording device and stood as close close to Joel at a pay phone in May of 1993, overhearing him make comments such as, quote, they don't have evidence and they will try to catch you in a lie. Saying shit like that. They don't know the context of it, but we can assume.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So they conducted extensive surveillance and investigation of the pair over the course of this next year. And here's a condensed version of that here. During the course of the surveillance, officers learned that Joel frequently used pay telephones, especially those at the 7-Eleven at the intersection of Saticoy and Fallbrook in Canoga Park.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
While not far from his mother's residence, these were not the pay phones closest to the house. So he's doing like like the fucking wire when the low rises were tapped. Like, don't go to these pay phones. You go three blocks over.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said on occasion by surveilling occasion, surveilling officers pretended to use the telephone next to the one being used by Joel in an attempt to overhear his conversations. On at least one occasion, Joel's actions were consistent with his calling a pager. He just typed a number in, then typed another one.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So commencing April 1st, 93, sheriff's detectives obtained telephone records in conjunction with their surveillance operation. On April 1st, during which time Dana was living in a dormitory at Santa Clara, Joel used one of the telephones at the Saticoi in Fallbrook 7-11 to make a brief call to Dana's dorm number.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Several minutes later, he made a call to the pay telephone at a shell station at the Alameda in Santa Clara. Approximately midway through Joel's conversation, which lasted around 30 minutes, the sheriff's sergeant went to the pay telephone next to the one he was using and attempted to overhear the conversation.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel expressed concern about staying there too long as, quote, all they had to do was drive by and that they might see him. He also asked whether the person to whom he was speaking was getting any heat yet. Later in the conversation, Joel said, quote, get this lawyer down here so it doesn't look like the buddy buddy system or something. I didn't tell them anything.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Can't you find anyone cheaper in Los Angeles, Fresno or San Francisco? Portions of the conversation concerned flying. And at one point, Joel mentioned a commercial license and asked the other person whether he or she wanted him to get his fixed wing while he still had the time. He's talking to Dana.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Later that day, Joel returned to the same telephone, appeared to dial a pager number, then waited in his car. Telephone company records showed a call to Yule's dormitory room. About 10 minutes later, Joel returned to the phone and placed a call to the Shell station near Santa Clara as well. So see, he calls him. He pages him back with the payphone he went to. Then they talk payphone to payphone.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
This is more than they did in The Wire.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
If they did this, they wouldn't have been able to catch him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You know what I mean? Sure. Race in this town, we have 45.5% white, 3.8% black, 14.3% Asian, 34% Hispanic. We have religion, 53% are religious here. And the highest denomination is going to be Catholic. And I would assume that would be the Hispanic population would probably have that. Otherwise, regionally, it wouldn't make sense. That and the Asian fighters. Yeah, yeah. They're into it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
If they did this, the whole wire would have been, these fucking guys are good. It would have just been Freeman sitting down in the basement going, I don't know shit. I got all these computers set up. I don't see nothing. I don't know what's happening.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Fuck it. I got a little armoire to make now. Let's do it. On April 5th, Joel telephoned the office of Fresno attorney E. Terrence Wolfe. Now, Joel was overheard to say that he was a referral from Mr. Berman and needed to see Mr. Wolf about a homicide. So he's definitely talking about the murders here. On or about April 8th, Joel personally paid Wolf $3,000 for attorney services.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I don't know where he's getting that. Wolf said he didn't know where Joel got the money, and Joel's parents did not pay that money. We do know that because the police asked them about it, and they said we did not provide that money for him. Now, more suspicious stuff. Lots of shit going on here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Forensic analysis found the murder weapon was a high-end 9mm specialty rifle manufactured by Feather Industries in Trinidad, Colorado. Yeah. Okay. That's one thing. So they figure out who made the murder weapon based on the bullets.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A place in Trinidad, Colorado, maybe. I don't even know they had gun manufacturers in the middle of nowhere in Colorado. Where's Trinidad? Trinidad.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Well, whenever we play Denver, the people that live there, they go, we drove like four hours – Jesus, it's awful down there. They'll tell us how terrible it is to live there. We're like, Jesus, I'm sorry. They're like the wind. It just never stops, man. It's always 75 miles an hour. Like, God, that sounds terrible. So Dana's mad at the cops again.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He issues a statement accusing the media of compounding his grief here, too. He's all of this shit. He says that the media is spreading gossip and it's unsupported by fact. All this type of shit.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
In June of this year, the sheriff's captain says in a letter to the Yule family's probate lawyer, it's the position of our department that Dana Yule is to be considered a prime suspect in the investigation. And Yule's lawyer said, well, you didn't give any facts, so I'm not going to freeze anything or do anything that you want me to do based on we think this. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Enter, if you want proof, enter Ernest Jack Ponce. He is 24 years old, and Joel and Ponce didn't page each other often, and the reason why they figured out who Ernest Ponce was is because of pages with Joel. Around there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So company records here, by the way, for the company in Trinidad, Colorado, showed that one rifle, a 9mm, the exact model that they were looking for, had been purchased by Ernest Jack Ponce, a friend of Joel's family, right before the murders.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I bought it for me for my birthday. And they were like, okay. Then he said, okay, fine. I did buy it for Joel, but I didn't think it was going to be used for a crime. That's fucking crazy. And he also concealed any of this, even when he knew about it later on. So we'll talk about that. Now they have a clone pager. So this is the wire. Now it's turned into. November, clone one.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said in November of 92, Joel obtained a pager with statewide coverage from communication headquarters in Los Angeles. In April 1993, detectives served a search warrant on the company to duplicate a clone pager so they could do that. On April 21st, they intercepted a page from Joel to the San Jose Jet Center, which was not far from Santa Clara University.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Telephone company records for April 22nd show calls made from pay telephones at the Ranch Market at the intersection of Mesa and Irvine in Costa Mesa to Dana's dorm room. April 27th records for those telephones show calls to a telephone booth at the San Jose Jet Center. This is crazy intricate. Dude, this is the picture of fucking Charlie Day with all the strings on the wall and the cigarette.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The amount of work to put this all together in an affidavit form of here's a story to tell would be just as hard as putting this together in a podcast form to put a fucking story together because this was a bitch of a beast to do, dude.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So they said that he didn't utilize the clone pager between April 21st and April 27th because Joel returned to the communication headquarters and expressed concern that someone else might be receiving his pages. So he knows that it's being cloned somehow. Right. He inquired whether any police had been asking about him, and he was told no.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They're into it. The unemployment rate is almost 10% here, which is very high compared to the rest of the country. Median household income here is $87,250 a year, which is a little higher than the $69,000 average.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel subsequently requested that the name on his account be changed to Mike Smith and that he be given a new pager number. This was done, and after the guy got a new search warrant and a new pager number and did all that, they did the same shit again. What the fuck? They talked to Dana again. This is May 12, 1993.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So over a year later, detectives go to Santa Clara University to confirm Dana's class schedule and to see if he attended classes that day. At about 1.45 that afternoon, Dana spotted detectives that he recognized and proceeded to follow them around campus in a very brazen manner, they say. Just follow them. Oh, you're looking for me? You're looking for shit for me?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
About shortly after 2.30 that afternoon, the detective intercepted a page to Joel from a pay telephone at the San Jose Jet Center, and he asked detectives in the area to check on the location. At some point that afternoon, Dana was observed using a telephone inside the San Jose Jet Center. So...
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
8.05 that evening, the two detectives, accompanied by public safety campus officers, went to Dana's dorm room to speak to him. They knock. A voice asked who it is. They said it's police. Dana opened the door, and there's Monica Zenta sitting on the bed as well. So it's him and Monica in the room. They told Dana that they had information on who might have killed his parents.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You're not going to like it, though, because you. Dana said he didn't want to talk to them. I don't want to talk to you.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I don't want to talk about it. Okay. When they said again they had information, he responded that he felt it was not the right time to be bothering him in regard to this incident. Huh? When would be a more convenient time for you to talk about murder? After further conversation, the one cop asked whether Dana was interested in finding out who killed his parents.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Dana said yes, but that he needed to make some phone calls first.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Later, they asked, well, who are you going to call? He recalled he replied that he's going to call his attorney.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They all set up. It was a wrong time. So they reiterated Dana reiterated that he did not wish to speak to the detectives there at the dorm room. He then asked the detective where whether he had enjoyed the campus. And when they said yes, Dana said he made a report at the police department against the detectives for following him around.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They're doing all right. And the cost of living here, 100 is average. Here it is 104. So it's not that far off. Housing is the highest thing. Median home cost here is $398,500. Okay, so housing is expensive. A little bit high, and you'd expect that too. I don't know how you wouldn't be just clamoring to move to Fresno.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When the detective told Dana to call when he was ready to hear the information, Dana repeated that it was not the appropriate time or place and asked how they would like it if somebody came banging on their door at 11 o'clock at night. The cop pointed out it's 8 o'clock at night. It's 8 o'clock. It's a college dorm. Not a lot of people sleeping in a college dorm at 8 o'clock at night.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's still light outside, kind of. Like, this is crazy. So they said it's 8 o'clock and they noted they did this kind of thing all the time and that people generally are welcoming of information about who killed their entire family. You know, that's normal. Right.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So Dana said that he turned his attention back to the campus police officers and said he did not want to talk to the other cops, but he would talk to the campus police officers.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You seem like you have no power to do anything, judging by the lack of weapon and handcuffs.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No. So he starts to shut the door, Dana does, at which time the detective said, by the way, just so you know, the information we have leads us to believe that Joel Radovich is responsible for killing your family. They said Dana immediately became quiet and appeared stunned.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said he then seemed to collect himself and that he still felt it was not appropriate to be discussing this at this particular time of the evening. I don't discuss murder past, what, 4 or 4.30? It's a day thing. It's a business hour, banker's hour thing.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When it's bright, when I hear birds chirping. He then shut the door in the middle of the statement, pretty much. About 15 minutes later, the cops watched Dana and Monica Zent exit the building and enter his Mercedes. He drove to the public safety office and went inside for a few minutes and got back in his car and left the area.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A few minutes later, the Mercedes was observed entering the 880 freeway from Alameda. The detective followed Dana into the far left lane. As they neared the first exit, Dana suddenly pulled across the other two lanes of traffic and took the exit. So the cops couldn't follow because it wasn't safe.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So at about 9 p.m., the cops intercept a page to Joel that originated from the business complex at 1520 Alameda. Detective Osborne responded to the location and observed Dana hanging up the receiver on the payphone. Not good. Not good at all. His vehicle was parked alongside with the lights on. Monica Zent seated in the passenger seat of the vehicle.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When Dana hung up, he went directly to the car, exited the lot, and ultimately was seen driving northbound. Two days later, May 14th, the detective intercepts a page which originated from the Airport Holiday Inn in Fresno. Joel was found at a pay telephone in Costa Mesa. Telephone company records show a 45-minute call to the Fresno Airport Holiday Inn.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Detective Knight, who was wearing a transmitting device, wearing a wire, basically, approached Joel's location and was able to place herself at the telephone around the corner from him, but within three feet of. So right there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel, who was already on the phone when the surveillance team arrived there, Knight was only able to hear a small patch of the conversation of his side due to the telephone being located under an airport's jet takeoff flight path.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So the tape recordings didn't turn out well, and you couldn't really hear very much. They said that they were able to hear portions of the conversation with which Joel was involved. She was unable to take notes while she was listening, but it was possible she took sentences and attributed them to the wrong telephone calls.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You've got a U-Haul in your driveway right now just pushing your couch in. We have for you the Sunnyside, California Real Estate Report. Average two-bedroom rental here goes for $1,260 a month, which is close to the national average. That's not bad. Here's a three-bedroom, three-bath, so T-Bowl for each and every b-hole here. 2,000 square feet. It's a standard raised ranch.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
As best she could recreate the conversations, she thinks that Joel said he was a little worried and was going to diss this place. OK, this is what she said during the first conversation. The discussion turned to money. She heard words, stock market values, as well as sums, 25 million and one million.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So that's the first conversation she overhears there that he's he's he's just got a fucking pocket full of quarters over here pumping him into a payphone. During the second conversation, she heard Joel say, quote, don't worry about it. She doesn't know anything. She's about to burst. She can't say anything. She won't. Then said, I miss you. They think they got something, you know, evidence.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They need to make an arrest. Politically, they need it. Just play the game. I think it's going well. I advise you not to talk to him. They blew it. They blew it at the first. Then said, we have everything to lose and nothing to gain. And they heard him, you know, it was a long call. He kept putting money in.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
During a third conversation, he appeared to be pleading with the other person, saying they can't tap your phone. It's against the law in this country. If you love me, you won't say anything. That's not good.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No, if they have reason to, then the more it's they can. If you love me, you won't say anything. They spread lies. They hope to trip you up. They try to catch you in a lie. If you talk to them, they'll mix you up and twist your words. Go have breakfast with Pete. I love you. And then he hung up the phone. So that is fucking interesting. So they heard some of it on a recording here as well.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
One person said they'll try or one recording they got on there was all of that. They all and they also recorded they may they might try to plant evidence. They plant marijuana like they'll plant weed on you. Nothing to gain, everything to lose. You just don't think you'll win the game. If you care about me, I advise you not to talk to them. They're going to lock you up. I can't be around you.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Also, my life is fucked. You need to keep on repeating it. They will play on your fear, and I love you too. Oh, man, that's fucking funny. Then another time that he's on the phone with Dana, they hear Joel say, OK, Dana, OK, after I call. OK, tell her to call me and I'll talk to her. Right. OK. OK, I'll do that. So I call her back. Right. They heard him saying that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Then they heard him say would be a mistake. So I called her parents and told them what kind of deep shit she's getting into. And her mom called, which was this morning. I called her. Then I called my wolf guy. That's the lawyer. Joel expressed concern that either the telephones were being tapped or there were snitches. Oh. And suggested someone is running around listening to us or something.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Not bad. I'm telling you, they have a lot of senses for this anyway. He's doing terrific with... He's like, they're listening to me. Let me say terrible shit.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Well, it's weird to say I think they're listening and then say incriminating shit. That's really a weird response to that. So you'd say, I think they don't say anything about the thing. You know what I mean? Like, fuck. So on the afternoon of June 3rd, Joel received a page bearing Ponce's pager number and numeric code.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He also received a page with a numeric code from a pay telephone from San Jose Jet Center. Ten minutes later, Dana was seen conversing on the phone. A detective tried to overhear the conversation during one of these. Joel asked, then why don't you then why don't they just pick us up? I call him like I just called him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, uh, I got to talk to my guy and see, uh, if they can actually charge, charge me with something in that, uh, uh, three shirt deal. I don't know how three shirt now three, three murders, triple homicide, three shirt deal. I don't know how far that goes. Yeah. Yeah. No problem. Right.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Um, and that he also said that, uh, that he wanted us to be extra careful and that we just got to hang tough about three shirts. about the three shirts that's like say how are you gonna bring over the ounce of pencils that i asked for what time will you be here with my ounce of pencils don't forget that qp a gatorade don't don't forget that i need that
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I need an ounce of jeans, so can you bring that to me? I actually will never forget that because I remember a kid actually saying that on the phone when I was a teenager. He said, I need an ounce of jeans. And I was like, just fucking say weed. They get it. It's an ounce. No one's listening. We're teenagers. What are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, and jeans almost rhymes with weed, too. So I was like, it's the worst fucking... The worst fucking code I've ever heard in my life. So November 15, 1993, Dana and Joel enroll with Aqua Sports in Fresno for scuba diving lessons. They both gave the murder house as their address.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They selected the same classes, took their classes and pool sessions at the same times, and performed their open water dives and received their certifications on the same date. Isn't that cute? So how much money have they spent here? Well, gotta know.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Like that just standard California raised ranch, you know, in a suburb here. The kitchen's updated. It's okay. Backyard's a little dead and sad. That's not great. $499,999 for that. Sounds a little bit much for 2,000 square feet and a sad backyard. Here's a four-bedroom, three-bath, 3,036 square feet. It's on .65 acres. It's a cool-looking house. It's totally not California-style whatsoever.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Between April 1992 and March 1995, Dana withdrew a total of, and this is just in cash, okay, withdrew a total of $124,153 in unaccounted for cash from various accounts. Cash. He's bleeding. Yeah. Yeah, this was cash which could not be traced to specific expenditures or transactions. One bank record revealed that most of Yule's withdrawals from the bank were in $100 bills, secondarily $50 bills.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Other bank records didn't provide that information of denominations. Between January 93 and February 1995, Joel took airplane and additional helicopter lessons from various flight schools in Los Angeles. The cost of the lessons exceeded $21,000 and may have exceeded $33,000. Joel always paid cash and $100 bills, by the way. Oh. Interesting.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Would have cost a minimum of forty three thousand dollars for him to obtain all of the flight certifications that he ended up with. So someone paid forty three grand in cash for him. And I think we know that is March 16th, 1994. Joel is seen inside Dana's airplane hangar on. That's right before they sold the joint there. March 16th, 94.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Dana and Joel both exited Dana's plane when it landed at the Fresno Airport. Now, during all this extensive investigation of the physical evidence is taking place to unusual scratches on the bearing surfaces of the six bullets recovered from the crime scene and autopsies led them.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And especially this Alan Boudreau, a firearms expert, to determine all six bullets were fired by the same weapon, that the weapon had a portal, a ported barrel, which holes are been drilled in it. And that a homemade silencer was used. That's what caused the scratching. He also determined the weapon was not a revolver or the browning that was missing from the Park Circle Drive residence.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Further investigation led him to find the AT-9 manufactured by Feather Industries with a barrel made by Green Mountain Barrels, which we talked about before. Uh, they, that's the February 18th, 94 punts admitted to detectives that he had purchased an 89.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He first, like we said, said he bought it for himself for his birthday and that Joel had never even seen it and that the gun had been stolen from him. Okay. And a subsequent interview though, he continued to lie and denied that it was his gun, which was used in the homicides. Even when they said they believe you have given or loaned the gun to a man. Yeah. But had nothing to do with the killings.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
We think that's what happened. Someone asked to borrow your gun. You lent it to them. You didn't know that was going to be used for killings. And he kept to a story of not knowing anything because he had heard of a case in which the person who supplied the gun received a long prison term. So he wouldn't say shit. Now, March 2nd, 1995. Dana, Joel, and Ernest are all arrested.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Ponce there, too. Ponce was, I believe it's Ponce that was quickly arrested while working at a TGI Friday's near his San Bernardino home. Oh, boy. Joel was arrested. He's fucking, he is slinging fucking Jack Daniel's chicken. And Joel is arrested at a Taco Bell in L.A. Jesus, man.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's what I mean. It's terrible. I mean, they are 24 or some shit, but still. The deputies wanted to arrest Dana by nightfall, but he was gone and they didn't know where he was. So they put an APB out on him. He ends up surrendering at the Long Beach Police Department all the way down in Long Beach. His lawyer said he surrendered as soon as he knew he was wanted.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
By the way, Ponce will help detectives find the gun barrel that they're looking for as well. They also arrest Joel's brother, Peter, who's 26 years old. They arrest him, too. Not great here. So there are a lot of people arrested here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He's they think it will talk about it. They think he was involved and was helping helping out with this whole thing. They said Dana and his and his court appearance was wearing handcuffs and a maroon jail issued jumpsuit when he appeared. The detective, Chris Curtis, one of the guys who had been following him around for everything, showed up in court to look at him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And he said, I just wanted to see if he'd have a polo pony on his jumpsuit. So during a March 2nd, 1995 search of the home of Joel's mother, a container of drill bits was seized from the garage in the drill bit index. Here they Boudreau found a found particulate matter, which included larger white particles, drill turnings and small pieces of what appeared to be steel wool. Huh. Huh.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The listing has it as Elegant Tudor Estate. So it's a Tudor. So it's got that like old school like you'd see in Connecticut or something. It's a weird thing with privacy charm and custom features. There's a big giant window. There's a nice pool out back. It's a cool house. It's actually really cool. Eight hundred seventy five thousand bucks for that house.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Boudreaux obtained an AT-9 and various, yep, you got it. I was waiting for it to click in. What the fuck? Yeah, making homemade silencers out of tennis balls.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, with steel wool inside of it, basically. Yeah. Making a tennis ball, Brillo pad. You can make either a silencer or a great meth pipe with that, one of the two.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So Boudreaux obtained in 1889 various barrels also, constructed a silencer out of PVC pipe, tennis balls, and steel wool, as shown in a book on how to make silencers, because they figured that'd be the only way they'd know how. This is pre-internet. And used the porting configuration contained in a barrel whose location was revealed by Jack Ponce and conducted test firing.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So drilled the holes the same way.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He concluded that the tennis ball particles, such as those found on Glee's clothing and in a piece of the carpet which had been under Glee's body, which would have been ejected had a bullet been fired through a sound suppressor made with tennis balls and that steel wool particles, again, such as those found in Glee's clothing, would have also been ejected from a homemade sound suppressor.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Boudreau also determined that the piece of carpet contained particles of chrome molybdenum, or of like composition to drilled metal specimens from green mountain barrels. So matching it all up. They cleaned the recovered... Same metal. Boudreaux cleaned the recovered barrel, which was packed with dirt, because when he... Oh, my God. When they hid the fucking barrel, this is what's so ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When they hid the barrel, they tried to just drive it into the ground. Yeah. But the guy was driving it in, realized he was touching it, and it was... Like in the fucking ground more. So he just stomped it into it more to get it like way into the ground. So that's how they that's where they found it. So it's packed with fucking with, you know, dirt.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said in the course of cleaning the barrel, Boudreau discovered steel wool fibers inside. The movement of gases which occurred when it occurs when a weapon is fired would move steel wool in a sound suppressor from the outside of the barrel to the inside. Boudreau conducted test firings with the barrel and concluded all six crime scene bullets were fired through it. They're fucked.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, Joel's brother, Peter, was arrested for three counts of murder. Same thing as Ponce. Everyone was arrested for triple murder. Now, Peter became friends with Jack Ponce when both were in high school. They remained friends following Peter's 1989 marriage to Danielle, another woman.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Peter, who was employed by Sketchley Mason as a plumber and had a workshop set up in his garage, occasionally accompanied Ponce to a shooting range called the Firing Lane. Ponce was a good shot. Joel, who knew Ponce, did not accompany them, nor did Peter allow him to go to the ranges with them. So Peter and Ponce would either rent weapons at the range or use a weapon belonging to Ponce.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
At some point, possibly the summer of 91, Peter unsuccessfully attempted to solder a barrel extension that Radovich that Joel gave him onto a 22 caliber firearm, which belonged to Ponce, but was in Joel's possession. Following Joel's graduation from college, he had Peter braze an extension tube, which Joel provided onto the end of a barrel of Ponce's llama.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Which isn't that expensive. Yeah, but it's not out of whack more than you'd expect kind of a thing.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Okay, so he does barrel work and does shit like this is what they're trying to get at. Peter understood the work was being done in order to build a silencer. Peter performed the work inside his parents' garage and later heard a weapon being fired inside, although did not see a finished silencer. He did not see the llama again until after the homicides.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Some time after Easter Sunday, though, a panicked Joel unexpectedly came to the apartment one night and told Peter that he had gotten a code Peter assumed meant on his pager and needed to get out of town. He said Peter might see his face on America's Most Wanted. That's not a good thing to say. No. When Peter refused to help him, Joel left and Peter didn't see him again for two weeks.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And Peter's garage was a large box in which Joel stored a variety of shit. At some point, Peter saw a backpack in there that has not been present since. Sometime after dark on April 22, 1992, day after the bodies were found... Peter was in his garage when either Ponce or Joel handed him the backpack, a cardboard box which contained a Soldier of Fortune magazine.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Why is it always Soldier of Fortune in this show? How many times does that fucking magazine come up in this show?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Other than those detective magazines that all the BTKs and people got horny about in the 50s and 60s. Ted Bundy and everybody.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That is wild. He believed that three guns, all of which were in pieces, were in the backpack. One was the llama, which still had the extension welded onto it. Peter broke it off. Also in the backpack was the barrel onto which Peter had welded the washer. The washer was off and the barrel was full of holes.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's a lot of money. But yeah, for the market, it's probably fine. But if you just reach into your pocket to pay for it, that's a lot of fucking money.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The barrel and the stock, which was also in the backpack, were consistent with a photograph of an AT-9, which they showed later on. The other weapon in the backpack was a semi-automatic pistol of some sort. It also had holes in it. None of the weapons was a revolver, and all had holes where the serial numbers used to be.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Also in the backpack were a lot of brass shell casings, tennis balls that were cut in half, and a cylindrical object with PVC caps at the end. Peter believed this to be the silencer. So Peter and Ponce were at the shop for about a half hour. Ponce sprayed the bag's contents with WD-40 to take off fingerprints. That'll eat the oils.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When they left, Peter drove and stopped at various locations, then remained in the vehicle while Ponce got out and threw things away. At one point, Peter asked Ponce whether the gun, he did not specify which one, was thrown away and Ponce said no. Ponce suggested their general route, which took them to a commercial district in the San Fernando Valley and all through a bunch of other shit here.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Here's five bedrooms, four baths, 8,393 square feet. Huge. Holy shit. Massive house. 1.14 acres. It is a really weird house. It's long, and I can't tell how many levels it is. I don't like it from the outside. It looks like it's a Lego house that was pieced together. It's a little bit weird. There's a fireplace in the kitchen, which is a strange feature. I don't see that very often.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Eventually, all Ponce had in the backpack, which contained the was the barrel. Basically, Peter was in a hurry to get home because his wife had been paging him and the Ponce said he would get rid of the barrel. So they returned to Peter's residence. Peter went to his apartment while Ponce left in his own vehicle. And that's what happened there. And then Ponce went and buried the shit in the ground.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So now, Ernest Jack Ponce here. Jack Ponce, he's arrested also for three counts of murder. He is going to get an immunity agreement, though. Oh? And yeah, they're going to let him have immunity as long as he testifies against these other two dipshits. So, Ponce and Peter were friends.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They had fallen out of contact with each other after college, but then around 1990, they started hooking up again and hanging out, and they would... They ended up at one point stealing two motorcycles together.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, and also they had helped each other steal car parts at one point, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, don't do that anymore. You're done. Don't murder with people you've done other crimes with also. And then during the summer of 91, that's when Ponce learned that Joel was looking for a gun that he didn't have to put his name on. And then they were talking about silencers and all that kind of shit. In March, Joel and Ponce, they basically, Got an 89.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Ponce needed money in order to purchase the the sketchly Mason van in which they intended to. He intended to live and agreed to buy the gun. Joel said did not say he want why he wanted the gun or why he needed it immediately. So sometime later, Ponce received obvious, though. It's a little bit, at least after the murders.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
But yes, but no. You'll see. It's very Menendez-y, though. In the middle of it, you'll go, this sounds familiar. But before we get to that, shutupandgivememurder.com is the site to head to. What is there, you may ask? Well, tickets to live shows. Absolutely. Get in there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Sometime later, Ponce received fifteen hundred dollars and one hundred dollar bills. As we know what that's like from Joel. On March 23rd, 1992, Ponce purchased the 89 from National Gun Sales and Receiver for four hundred thirty seven dollars. And at Joel's request, he later also also purchased an extra clip and some some subsonic ammunition.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel paid Ponce five hundred dollars for making the purchases and Ponce returned the rest of the cash to him. Ponce picked up the weapon after the waiting period. And yeah, Ponce said that when Ponce turned over the gun, Joel told him to report it stolen after a while. Ponce did so about six months later when his car was burglarized, and Joel criticized this as being too soon. It's too shady.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Need to be later. In making his report to the police, Ponce named a friend's roommate as a suspect.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Ponce next saw the AT-9 not too long after April 8th. The gun, which was in the garage of Joel's residence, his family residence anyway, his parents, now had a silencer on it that looked like a PVC pipe. Ponce saw Joel fire the gun into a block of wood. The silencer muffled the sound.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Ponce believed that Joel was going to sell the weapon, asked if Joel was going to make a lot of money off the gun, and he said, oh, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Just in a different way. At one point, he told Joel told Ponce that the silencer was a series of baffles made out of cut up tennis balls and later said he found that steel mesh worked better. So, yeah, at some point, Ponce saw a shell catcher in the garage.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Catches your shells so you don't leave casings. Joel said he had fired the weapon once and then spent a half hour finding the shell, so he constructed a shell catcher.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's homemade. A small plastic box that was glued on the outside of the slide to catch the shells when they were ejected. Glued. That's going to work.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Jesus Christ. That is fucking funny, man.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Glue and tennis balls and Brillo pads.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
What kind of a crackhead shot me?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's a custom-built home designed by a British architect. Okay, and it is $1,200,000.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
You people are pure scum. Sometime after Easter, Ponce believed it was the night of April 12th or 21st, Tuesday. Ponce received a telephone call from Joel who said that something was wrong and that he needed to come over. Ponce, who was staying at a girlfriend's condo, let Joel come into the closed parking structure where Joel parked his car and then covered it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said he didn't want anyone to see it. He appeared nervous and worried and was looking around and kept his hood up over his head, you know, so he doesn't look suspicious. Okay, then. I don't want to fucking know anymore. The two later went for a ride, and Joel was pondering places he might go. Ponce suggested that if he didn't know what was going to happen, he could get a lawyer.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When Joel said no, he couldn't do that. Ponce began to think that Joel might be more than just accidentally involved in whatever was going on. With respect to the reason why it happened, Joel said something to the effect of it had to do with $8 million and that, quote, we're going to assume the throne.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
a little much nice house it's a huge house it's a huge giant house yeah that's not that's not that out of whack uh things to do here we have kingsburg swedish village yeah that's a that's weird kingsburg swedish swedish village features beautiful intricate swedish architecture dala or dala horses d-a-l-a you know anything about that I don't know shit about horses. I don't know that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Now, April 29th, 1992, a week later, is when the Rodney King riots started, when the Los Angeles riots started, and continued for several days. During this time, Joel was using Ponce's van, and Joel and Ponce drove to the Malibu area, where there was, I assume, no rioting. There, they sat down on the beach together.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel had not officially heard what, if anything, had happened and was trying to figure out what had gone wrong with the murder, not with Rodney King. We knew what went wrong there. So that was pretty obvious. Ponce invited him to explain what happened. So. He does. He spills it now.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel says that he had shot three people with the 89 and that it had been done to split $8 million as part of an inheritance. Ponce already knew it was the Yule family, obviously, although Joel did not tell him the name at the time. Joel said the shootings took place in Fresno and that he'd been to the home prior to the homicides.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said he knew the family would be away at the time he arrived and that he knew roughly the time they would return. He said he had previously removed all of his body hair.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Knowing he would be there a long time, long enough where he would have to use the bathroom and didn't want to leave. He might drop a dick hair, yeah. He might drop a fucking pube on there. Drop your taint fucking scratch on there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, that's all there is. Everywhere is dick hair.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Everywhere. So Joel related that he drove his car to Fresno, but he didn't say how he gained entry into the house. He said there was a window leading into the garage that did not have an alarm on it, but he didn't say whether he used that window. He said he arrived before the family did and got the AT-9 into the house by loading it in his backpack.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Once inside, he took the gun out and assembled it. He related that he brought some plastic sheets to lie in, although he did not say where he waited for the family. So he wouldn't leave anything behind. Wow. He said he had to sleep on the plastic and that he wore rubber latex gloves. So he just camped out in the house waiting for these fucking people.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel described the Yule home as lush digs, said the mother and daughter arrived first. He said the daughter walked by the laundry room where he was waiting and he shot her in the back of the head and she fell straight down. He said the mother must not have heard it because she kept talking. He said he went and shot her and that she was possibly the only person who saw him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He said he had to shoot her multiple times and had to put a new clip in after that. They had to shoot her a bunch. He also said that he put on a different pair of gloves for some reason. He then waited for the father to come home. He said he didn't say how long he had to wait.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When the father came in the door, he said he waited until the door closed and the father walked past the room where he was located, just like the cops thought. Joel then stepped out and shot him. The father, who was in the hallway, was shot in the throat area and something came out of his eye. That's what he said. He was shot in the back of the neck and it came out. Something.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I don't know what it was. Joel said he heard a gurgling sound that there was something oozing out of his eye, which is why he thought that he was probably dead.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's real fucked up with a bullet probably severed his spinal cord and took out his eye. That's fucking horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Joel told Ponce that after the shootings, he tried to check the victim's pulses by digging his gloved forefingers into the people's forearms to try to get a pulse. Ponce told him that probably would not have worked very well and demonstrated how you do it on your wrist. This guy didn't know how to check a pulse. He was feeling around their forearms for it.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's so strange. Joel. I don't know which one that is. Joel. I'm one of them. Joel further related that he took a cover weapon and some money. Ponce Ponce believed it was the fifteen hundred dollars that Joel had at the hotel from the house. Joel said he took a weapon because he had learned that a cover weapon is taken to throw people off concerning what gun was actually used.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's why he stole the Browning. Joel said that after the shootings, he disassembled the AT-9 on a desk in an office and took off the gloves. He said he thought he might have left one of the gloves as he was wearing multiple pairs, and that was the only thing he could think of that went wrong. He said he put the disassembled weapon in the backpack.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
I don't know anything. I've never heard of that. Probably Swedish horse. I know they're big and they're brown a lot of the time. That's about all I know about horses.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He also related that the shell catcher had malfunctioned. He said he had to wait a while so he could leave when it was dark outside. He then told Ponce that he had committed the murders to split the inheritance, which he thought was $8 million. Joel said he would have to wait approximately three years for the money.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Several times during the discussion, Ponce castigated Joel for using the gun that he had supplied. He's like, I gave you that gun. What the fuck are you doing? And each time he apologized, Joel did. And on the way home, Joel said, quote, if there's a God, I'm I'm fucked.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Sometime later, Ponce asked Joel what he would do or say if the police asked him his whereabouts on Easter Sunday, and Joel responded that he might say he was at Hamrick's because it was 24 hours a day and it was hard to tell who was there at any given time.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's it. So they searched the apartment also here. Uh, this is July 3rd, 1994. Oh, this is, they were, he was renting an apartment from July to March of, um, from 94 to 95. You, uh, Dana rented an apartment at broadcast center apartments in Los Angeles. The gas account was in the name of Dan James, but payment was made by cashier's checks.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They're real powerful. They're pretty fast.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
One of which were the name of Dana Ewell as the purchaser for, So following Dana's arrest, a defense investigator moved property from the apartment to a mini storage unit in Fresno. The pager belonging to Mike Johnson was subsequently received retrieved from the mini storage unit. A gun cleaning kit bearing Joel's fingerprint was also seized from the mini storage unit, as were two pistols.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
One of them bit my cousin in the face one time, so I know that's a factor to worry about.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A box that matched one of the weapons, which was purchased in 1993, was found during the March 1995 search of the murder house. Also found in the mini storage was a Kenwood receiver, which was consistent with brochures found during the search of the residence as well. March 6th, 1995, estate lawyers begin freezing Dana's assets.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah. Today, this was the day he was supposed to get the first chunk of his money. That's why they arrested him ahead of time. It was supposed to be more than $1.5 million in cash and properties. Instead, he's sitting in a fucking jumpsuit in a county jail. Yep. A court hearing on the matter has been pushed aside by another, which is his arrangement for murder.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So the executor of the estate, though, planned to put more than $1.5 million in property and cash into the trust that day. The trustee was to be John Heilel, who they hired to oversee Western Piper sales here, which has been sold now. They said he would have final say in which items in preliminary discretion. They were going to give him $250,000 in cash. Plus the two farms in Merced County.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's what they were going to give him that day. Transfer from the estate to the trust would have given him influence over what would have been done with the assets. So as it is, they said that preliminary distribution is postponed until further developments in court. Yeah. Dana has no cash is his problem now.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
No idea. Discover their Swedish downtown featuring over 30 restaurants and unique gift and collectible shops. Are we clamoring for Swedish things that much, really? I guess so. We have Ikea. That's enough.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's been more than three years, and it left him in control of nearly $400,000 of his wealthy grandmother's trust fund he's had access to as well. But the account was down to less than $2,000 when he was arrested.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Yeah, he was cash poor. Spent like a fuck, dude. No kidding. He's just spending, spending, spending on everything.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Same thing the Menendez brothers did. It was like winning the lottery to them. They didn't have to work for that money, so they were like.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Well, you got to get a car and a place and clothes.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Then you've got to maintain it. But at least you have stuff at that point. So that's a big deal. They said armed with stacks of search warrants, the prosecutors here learned of bank accounts in Fresno, Pasadena, Los Angeles, Woodland Hills, Beverly Hills, and Granada Hills. A total of 27 accounts at 14 different banks.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Some were in Dana's name only, while others he held jointly with his grandmother, Glee Mitchell, while others were joint accounts with his girlfriend, Monica. Who used to work in a bank, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They searched, as described in confidential records, as they asked for permission to subpoena financial records and wrote, Dana Yule and Monica Zent have taken extraordinary measures to conceal the cash flow taken from Glee Mitchell Trust and to disguise the source of the funds. March 8th, 1995, Ponce is released after agreeing to be a prosecution witness.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
And so is Peter, because he agrees to testify against his brother. And they let him go, too. So they got all the information we told you earlier about all that. They're going to testify to every bit of that shit. Now, trial comes up. Okay. Big thing is prosecution wants to show all those people from back in the day that said he's obsessed with money. All he cares about is money.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He lies to show how much money he has. And the defense is saying that's irrelevant. And they're saying, no, it's not irrelevant because it shows that he was so concerned with status and money that he was willing to lie for it and willing to fucking do everything for it. Do anything for it. Do anything for it, including kill people. So this trial lasts eight months, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
We have Ikea. That's enough. That's enough Swedish shit. We get it. You sell the meatballs, the lingonball things, whatever the fuck they are. Great. Fish. There you go. Visit the Kingsburg Chamber of Commerce and Visitor Center and receive a hearty Valkomen to Fresno County. I think that's welcome in Swedish. Really do. That's all it is.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Eight months. That's longer. That's expensive. That's longer than OJ's trial. Yeah. Think about that, how long that was. Longer. Eight fucking months. I don't even know how long. Wow. I mean, I know like federal trials can go on forever, but usually a state murder trial.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
A guy I knew, his brother was involved. He's a mob guy. He was involved in the longest federal trial that ever happened. It's a Vin Diesel movie, by the way. And that was because there was like fucking 20 defendants that had, you know, lists of charges 17 miles long and RICO shit and all this stuff. Murders and financial shit.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So Joel's attorney, believing the evidence was so overwhelming against Joel that a guilty verdict was probable, made his main goal avoiding the death penalty because the death penalty is they're going for the death penalty on both.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So the prosecutor in his opening said Jack Ponce also tells us about what Joel said about why he committed the murders. He Joel says that he committed the murders in order to split the eight million dollar inheritance. That's only admissible against Joel. And he stated that he expected to collect half his half of the proceeds when Dana turned 25 due to a stipulation in the will.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They said finally against both admissible against both admissible against both. Joel tells Jack Ponce we're going to assume the throne and he tells him I hope there's no God because if there is I'm fucked.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He's like, you have that much money? Holy shit. I'm going to kill everybody, especially Tiffany, because I'm not giving that dullard half of this shit. You know, that's what that asshole was thinking. I'm not giving old fucking eggshell skull over there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Nothing. So in opening statements, defense attorney said, did the the evidence will show that Joel and Dana were good friends. Did you notice a few minutes ago the prosecutor started to bring up promissory notes? That's correct. Promissory notes. They got the case in material and all this money turned over. You heard the evidence that Mr. Ponce is going to say.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Mr. Ponce is going to say that Joel's going to get four million bucks of the eight million dollar estate. A man who's going to get $4 million has to sign promissory notes to Mr. Businessman Dana Yule to repay back $16,000. Think of that in your inferences and in your evidence. That's why he wanted to bring it up now. He said, yes, there was some money given to him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He made him sign promissory notes. Okay. They talk about that also discussed the statement concern concerning assuming the throne and argued it was ludicrous because Dana was already on the throne in the apex of life. He was already on the throne. So childhood friend of Dana's testifies.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
saying, quote, I've never known anybody like Dana in the respect that when one judges their life's worth or life's value, nobody has come close to Dana. And all the people that I have met and come in contact with and have been friends with to where money has been the most single, most important determining factor of one's value.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
the most and they also said uh compare the relative degree of dana's interest in money to other people and the response is like um scale of one to ten it was an 11 to him it was i don't know he didn't feed on and it was a it was a high a big interest in him like money makes things go around and people you know money won't necessarily make you happy but it can buy you the porsche you want
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
and it can buy you the ski lodge that you want. And I don't know. I think money made him very happy, the impression that he had a lot of money. Michael Poindexter said, he's the greediest person I've ever met in my life. And they said, did you ever describe that character as Dana wanting you to think he was as rich as God? And he said, as rich or richer.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Swedish welcome. And then finally, the Tequila Fest Fresno. okay okay let's figure out i put these two in here specifically let's figure out what are the two most different crowds possible the swedish village crowd and tequila fest fresno Starring Ludacris, of course. Stop it. It's Ludacris. It is Nelly. And who's the other one? There's one more that's always.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
So he said he wanted to show everyone how much money you have, talk about the money, dress in the nicest clothes, make sure everyone knows you've got the expensive car, the expensive house, come from a well-to-do family, let people know you always have cash. It would be completely in line to say you would always pay with big bills because it made you look like you have more money.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
When you go to buy a candy bar, you say, can you break 100? It's the smallest I have. That was his type of flashiness. Now, some women say he was a nice guy. A bunch of women testify. Yeah, one guy said that even Joel was a nice guy. He sent me a beautiful framed picture of Marilyn Monroe, this one says. Kids, people from, like, college and shit like that.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's very easy to please those girls. You give them a framed picture of Marilyn Monroe. No matter how many they already have, they'll love it. Yeah. They'll put more up. One person describes Joel as a shady character, and she said, but by shady, I mean he's mysterious and internalized. No, that is not at all what that fucking means.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
They talk about his lack of alibi, the fact that his family went to church, but he didn't go with them that day, all of that shit. Ernest Jack Ponce testifies and says everything there. He describes the murders from Joel's standpoint, but says, and I saw the eye, then corrected himself. Several jurors later believe that Ponce was there with him.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
That's what they believe. They believe that Ponce was there with him. That's why he said, then I saw the eye, not then Joel said he saw the eye. Got it. But Ponce passed a lie detector test, too.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Closings, they said, so what happens here with all this scheming? Dana finds himself as the toast of the town there in Santa Clara, running around in his suits, driving his gold Mercedes. Have you ever seen how very, very rich people, men, get treated by their fellow men? Have you ever seen that?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
It's, I know not all of us treat them that way, but there's a great deal of power, admiration, respect, even sexual attraction that's accorded to the so-called rich. All these things come to a person perceived to be or actually be wealthy. And that's what Dana was putting out there.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
The defense here said that they ridiculed the prosecutor's references to Michael Milken and Ivan Boski, labeling the prosecution's assessment of motive as garbage and said, this is ridiculous. Yeah, that's crazy. Do you think that wasn't a planned question? The one about richer than God? He said, no, not going to be richer than God, but he's going to be richer than Moses or something.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He's not going to have that kind of an answer. Part of that garbage evidence. Throw it against the wall and see what sticks.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Maybe one of those. Maybe Kevin Federline or some bullshit. We both went to her stable somehow. Verdict comes in. Jury deliberates for 11 days.
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
Okay. The jury is deadlocked during sentencing. Okay. Can't figure it out. So the judge declares a default sentence of you says may fuck off life in prison without parole. So they're there in prison. Dana's in the protective housing unit of the California State Prison at Cochran, along with a lot of other murderers and Charles Manson and Sirhan Sirhan. High profile people are they putting that in?
Small Town Murder
#579 - Millions To Murder - Sunnyside, California
He tries to get executive clemency in January 2022. That shit didn't work. His appeal didn't work either. He won a couple of points, but not the ones about murder, unfortunately for him.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
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Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said, I'm sure everyone has some redeeming qualities, including you, but she also let her opinion be known. She said, I think you're completely diabolical. You have evil in your heart. You, ma'am, may fuck off. Life in prison on the homicide charge with parole, though, and 10 years for the two theft charges.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The soonest she could be paroled would be after 40 years when she'd be about 80 years old.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, she is fucked. And the judge says, I think 30 years is a significant amount of time, but my target is really for you. The judge said she said making you eligible for parole close to 80 older than what the victim would be today. And also, by the way, restitution is set at three hundred and eighty thousand dollars.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Who's she paying that to with an additional 16,000 owed to cover the cost of state witnesses in the trial. Keep on keeping on. And that is. Pewaukee, Wisconsin.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Wow. That is fucking bonkers. Holy shit. So that's one of the craziest stories we've ever told.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She keeps talking. There's so much of her. If you watch the trial, she talks. I can't believe she didn't testify. I'm honestly shocked because she's like a Sarah Boone that would want to get it out there. But Sarah Boone didn't testify either, so.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
either way there you go if you enjoy that tell the world about it get on whatever app you're on give us five stars say something nice it helps drive the show up the charts and obviously that takes a lot to put together so that helps it takes two seconds to do tell your friends post on social media also definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com tickets for live shows may is our next dates here where we have st louis and chicago st louis is
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Just about sold out. So if you want to get in there, do it right this minute. Chicago getting there, too. So get your tickets right now. We have like four shows that are either sold out or almost sold out after that, too. So there's like eight left. So if you want to get in there, get in there and get your tickets right now. Shut up and give me murder dot com.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Also follow on social media at small town murder on Instagram, small town pod on Facebook. Right. You definitely want to get Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of the bonus material. $5 a month or above will get you immediately hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before, and then all of it from there on as well.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
coke on saturday yes i'm a weekender that's how it is uh laney wilson who looks exactly as she sounds blonde lady with a cowboy hat you know what that's gonna be i know i know what she is benson boone who again looks exactly as you'd expect him to look you betcha uh the killers will be there the oh wow the isley brothers will be there what are all of them alive how many i how many are left guys let's be honest
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Every other week you get one Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder as new ones, and you get it all. This week what we're going to talk about for Crime in Sports, you definitely don't have to like sports for this, disasters. No, no, no. Hot air balloons, amusement parks, industrial, a disaster, potpourri, if you will.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Everywhere. Then for small-town murder, when psychics actually succeeded.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Some lady came in with some crazy hat on her head and was like, I think they're buried over here. And they were. So that happens sometimes. We'll talk all about that. Arrest her. Arrest you right now. Let's get your fingerprints and DNA in here. So that is patreon.com slash crime and sports and crime in sports, that is, by the way. And you get a shout out, which happens right now.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful fucking people who would never, ever, ever poison us for years with Visine and try to take everything we own. Hit me with them right fucking now.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yes, thank you for coming to the show, guys. We appreciate it. Oh, yeah, that was very nice. Neil and Blow Me, James.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Neil and Blow Me, that's good. Oh, that's very nice. It's very clever.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
right i would hope so they didn't think they were gonna get by you've seen an andrew dice clay act from 1987 so yeah you probably have
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Is that on a horse? Him or the horse? The horse has no name, or does he?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
There's got to be Isley Cousins mixed in at this point, right?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, they're connected. Do they touch? Is there a cat house there? Yeah, you can drive across Wyoming and through Nebraska.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Look, we need to get four. That's the actor, right? You have a nephew.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Connected to Nebraska, by the way. Is it really? Yeah, absolutely. I wonder if it's legal. I've driven through there. Yeah, all the way through.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Go with holy fuck is your name, I think. That's easier for people. I said go with holy fuck. That was easier for Jimmy to pronounce.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
fabulous will be there remember we did his crime and sports we talked about his real name and all that which is hilarious uh gary clark jr yeah okay genuine will be there yeah what the fuck is this bone thugs and harmony will be there whoever's left out of that group maybe them and the isley brothers should combine so they'd have a whole group
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Wow. You fantastic, diabolical bastards who don't have evil in your heart. We love you so much. Thank you for all that you do for us. And thanks for keep coming back every week. Tell your friends, keep doing it. You want to follow us on social media, drop down menu at shut up and give me murder dot com. We'll take you there. Otherwise, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
portland these are all later on in the year so dc seattle philly all these shows philly's almost sold out do get your get your tickets right now if you want to go to a small town murder live show is what we're saying shut up and give me murder.com can't wait to see you out there we loved pittsburgh and columbus oh thank you so much for coming out we had a great time and the crowds were awesome and just so much fun in the midwest as cold and nasty and crappy and gray as it was it was still a good time and we didn't mind it at all still
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
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Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And then following Bone Thugs is Fog Hat. So, yeah, none of this makes sense. Bone Thugs will sing first of the month and then Slow Ride will take off. It's fucking ridiculous. Then George Thorogood, of course.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, that's who's in there. Then Cake, because that goes with George Thorogood.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The Avett or Avett Brothers? Avett Brothers, yeah. The Avett Brothers, who, again, look exactly as you'd imagine them to. Chicago...
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Who is available that's been famous any time in the last, I don't know, 60 years? Anybody? This is crazy. James Taylor. Yeah. Yeah. It's not unusual. Why not? Tesla. Sure. Sure. Jason Mraz. Okay. What the fuck? And Def Leppard, of course. Okay. Oh, and Megan Thee Stallion, obviously, too. You got to have her there. When you have Def Leppard, obviously, she comes with the practice.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's the weirdest festival that's ever happened, I swear to God. Wow. And it's like they pack, there's like three different days of it, and the lineups, it isn't like classic rock day and hip hop day. It's everybody is everybody. It's all mixed together. All bets are off. It's the Avid brothers followed by fucking, the Avid brothers followed by Bone Thugs. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It'd be a crazy radio station. You'd be like, what am I listening to?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Where you're always wondering, what the fuck are they playing now?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I just heard fabulous, and here comes George Thorogood. I'm confused. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And they also have a 5K road race and a basketball tournament and all that kind of shit and everything like that. And then there's also the Pewaukee Summer Sizzle as well. Okay. Got to have that. This is a little lower key of an event.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
it happens right around the same time too it really is probably overshadowed this is at kiwanis village park and uh yeah they said enjoy the musical talents of andrea and the mods yeah that's not exactly you know not exactly genuine um american graffiti band okay and Bad Medicine, which is a Bon Jovi song. I don't know. That's a song.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And American Graffiti is a movie, so I don't know what's going on, a George Lucas movie. And there's a bocce ball tournament and a beer garden.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's what I mean. You can't really compare those. They're going on at the same time.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Get you pumped up. That's what it's all about. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here, Property crime is a little over half the national average, but pretty low, honestly, very low. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one-third of the national average, so about two-thirds under the national average.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
same place people with money everybody that plays anything they go to their money you get to see fog hat it's really a hard it's it's a dream they got a lake and fog hat at the same time holy shit that said let's talk about some murder what do you say here we go yeah let's get into some murder because we have a just a weird weird weird case today with a weird person and uh it's interesting
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Let's talk about a lady first up here. Lynn. Let's talk about Lynn Hernan. H-E-R-N-A-N. That's her nan. Not my nan. That's her nan. Born June 26, 1956. So she's just about my dad's age there. Her parents are Bob and Lorraine Hernan. And now she grows up. Lynn graduated. She lived in Madison.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So windy in Columbus. Also, listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which we're doing a special series on Evel Knievel right now. You want to hear the craziest story you've ever heard? Check that out. Also, Your Stupid Opinions for the funniest reviews out there. And if you listen to all that, you want more, Patreon we have for you. There you go.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She grew up in Madison, Wisconsin, where we'll have a show that I don't need to advertise because it's sold out. So never mind. I was going to I was going to plug it, but never mind. She grew up in Madison. She graduated in the class of 1974 at La Follette High School. And she had one career goal and one desire. She wanted to be a hairstylist and own her own salon. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's what she was all about. It's not bad. Great gig. No, it's a cool life and not bad at all. Hard work, though. It's hard work. My grandfather owned a barbershop. You're there at 6 a.m., you leave at fucking 7.30 p.m., and it's on your feet the whole day. It's brutal.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
a little harder because yeah you have to actually work that's the difference yeah but you can also it's much easier to get a gig that's the other part anyone will hire you to tell you fuck up yeah shit I got that yeah no I've done it before so she wants to do that and she ends up doing that she'll become a hairstylist and eventually own her own salon for a while here apparently she really really really likes old timey shit she's super into old time black and white movies she's
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, like, you know, romantic movies, things like that. Betty Davis, big Betty Davis. Oh, real time. Very much. Yeah. Very much into Betty Davis. And her favorite thing of all time is the Wizard of Oz. She has Wizard of Oz memorabilia. She loves the music of the movie.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, yeah, from the paint. Not good there.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It made him very, very ill because he kept inhaling shit, too. He had shit in his lungs.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's true. But it wasn't for years. I mean, he didn't finish the movie, cough up a silver chunk, and then fall dead, which is good. But no, it wasn't good back then. It was tough in movies. But she is all about The Wizard of Oz and shit like that. So that tells you if a person's favorite movie and kind of their personality is wrapped up around The Wizard of Oz.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It tells you somewhat about what kind of person they are. It's usually like a upbeat person.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You know what I mean? Wizard of Oz is a story of, I don't know, getting home. It's not a dark movie. You know what I mean? It has darkness to it, but the people who like it are... Yeah, they're cheery people. They're cheery people.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's a fucking musical. Yeah, there aren't a lot of musicals where it's just like some dark, swarthy person like, I love that fucking musical. It's great. Yeah. I love when they sing about being out of the woods. That's my favorite. So that's how she goes through life here from the 70s when she graduates high school in through the 90s. She's hairdressing into the 2000s. She's hairdressing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything, a whole immediately upon subscription, hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before, new ones every other week, including this week. You get one Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder, and you get it all.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She never gets married, never has kids.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No marriage, no kids, which is, hey, good for you. She likes her cats. She has cats and Judy Garland, and she's happy with that.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She did. She had a tough life, Judy Garland. Lynn here has like a, like she is a, how to put this here. She has a lot of boyfriends and things like that and a lot of relationships, but she never wants to settle down and never wants to have kids. She always wants to live kind of her own thing. She's fun. She's living a life. Yeah, she's got her own shit that's going on.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Here's an ex-boyfriend of hers that becomes her good regular friend after they're done with their relationship. That's another thing that happens a lot with her. she'll be, have a boyfriend and then they break up and then they're friends for 20 years. So she has to be a decent person for people to not, you know, hate her after their relationship ends.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's incredible. How many exes are you friends with? You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So this guy's name is Jim Kelleher and they met at a music festival in 1983 when she was 27 years old at that point fog hat was our headline in that one too i was gonna say that was they were there to hear slow ride who are these death leopard idiots i don't want to hear rock of ages play slow hat again or play fog hat slow ride um slow hat fog ride fog ride fog ride take it easy
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So they when asked what his first impression of her was, he said that a lady that looked that good wouldn't go out with me. That's what he thought about her. Like, oh, yeah, she was looking good. She ain't going to go out with me.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she's like cool looking to back in the day, like all these pictures of her, like her hair is always like all cool and shit because she's a hairstylist and like she's like fashionable and like, yeah, she looks like a cool chick. But they she ended up liking him. So this guy thought he had no chance, and he ended up having a chance.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
He was like, wow, she's – I thought she'd have a higher fucking idea of herself, but I guess not.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's a great thing when you realize that a woman that you like has lesser standards than you.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
oh she doesn't see what everybody else she doesn't see that she's wonderful right okay she doesn't know she's hot yeah that's great that's good so um he said they lasted about 10 years their romantic relationship so wow that's terrific a lot of long-term relationships too this happens all the time what if everything we thought we knew about justice was wrong
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
For Crime in Sports this week, it's Disaster Potpourri. We've done ballooning disasters, amusement park disasters, industrial disasters. We're going to mix it all up this week and have a disaster potpourri. Then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about psychics that actually succeeded.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And even after it ended, they were close friends right away.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So he describes her as a beautiful lady inside and out. Just beautiful. That's what he says. So wonderful. Another friend of hers here is Corrine Pazza. And she said that they were best friends for over 35 years, her and Lynn. And I guess she has a son. This Corrine has a son named Anthony. Anthony Pazza. Jesus, poor bastard in Wisconsin.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
He said he always had a special bond with Lynn since childhood. And that's the thing, too. A lot of her friends that have children, she becomes like their cool aunt, basically.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So that's a constant theme that goes on. Like, oh, she treated me like a nephew and bought me things and took me places and treated me like one of her own type of thing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's just not having any of her own. She's like, I like to play with them and buy them stuff and then send them on their way and go home and fuck my boyfriend. That seems like more fun. So he called her Auntie Linny. So there you go. He said he stayed close to her. He would regularly drop by her occasionally.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
We're always talking about psychics doing terrible jobs, and sometimes they've found bodies and stuff, and we'll find out if it was really a psychic thing or whatever. We'll look into it, and we'll figure out psychics that actually succeeded. Patreon.com. slash crime in sports. And you get a shout-out at the end of the show, too.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
while he attended college nearby just to say hi, and she'd make him something to eat and all that kind of thing. He said, I love doing stuff with her. You know, thrift store shopping. That was a date we would go on is thrift store shopping.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
buy something stupid you have three dollars go get something yeah get something that'll impress me that you spent three bucks all this shit is four dollars we'll figure this out yeah it's not it's it's a cheap day it's a fun day my daughter was into that for a while when she was a teenager too we just go around she found a crazy doll that she would hide in her mom's house that's fun open the toilet lid and there it is
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So there's another young lady here who has a similar relationship with Lynn that Anthony has, and that's a young lady named Jessie. Oh, God. I watched this whole fucking thing, and I still don't know how to say it, and I've heard people say it. Kurzuski. Kurzuski, I'm going to say. K-U-R-C-Z-E-W-S-K-I.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. She's born in 1984 and she has a similar relationship because her mother, Jennifer Flower, was a good friend of Lynn's. Gotcha. So she had the same type of relationship, like an aunt relationship here. There's a picture of them at Jesse's high school graduation party that Lynn threw for her. It's like she's hugging her, and you can see there's balloons and picnic tables and shit.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She threw her the party. Jessie, by the way, not spelled in any way you'd expect it to be spelled.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You go Jessie, and she's a young lady. You go, oh, J-E-S-S-I-E. No. Okay, J-E-S-S-E then. No. J-E-S-S-Y? Yep. J-E-S-S-Y is how she spells this name. I've never seen that before. No? At all. No. Have you seen that?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, no, her name is Jessie from what I've seen here. Really? Yeah, there is no Jessica. It's just Jessie.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, for P. Walkie, that's an odd name. An odd name. So now Lynn, she basically, you know, from the time she graduates all the way up to 2014. So a good 40 years of her life here. She she's always doing hair styling and all that. And I've known there's a lot of people in my family that have been in the hair business and hair.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
One thing that is for sure with the hair business is you can make a living off of it, but it's not a good way to – unless you own a shop with a lot of people making your money.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Jimmy will mess your name all up, even though he would love to read it correctly. Disclaimer time. This is a comedy show. We're comedians. Also, there's going to be murder. That's how this works. See, here's how we do it. We don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Obviously, yeah, if you can do that. But if you're doing it in Pewaukee –
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
At the great clips or whatever, it's going to be you're not going to kill it off of that. So they said she's always living paycheck to paycheck, basically her whole life until 2014 when her mother died. Oh, and then she she inherited two hundred fifty thousand dollars.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
When she used her credit card, she'd literally go home and pay it over the phone right then to pay it. She would write a check to pay it. She would right away do that. She hated technology, didn't own a smartphone, didn't have a computer, didn't use the internet, period.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
How are you managing it? In 2014, that is really difficult.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
2014, yeah. She's living a 1975 life. Cash and no technology.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It seems like she's just kind of set in her ways in terms of that. She's not interested. She's like, I am a 70s chick. Rock on.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I mean, she doesn't live outside of that. But I mean, yeah, you can pull up in your T-top Trans Am and I'll get in. But I don't want to get on the Internet afterwards. Take me to the Def Leppard show and then drop me off at home with my cat.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Because I definitely didn't get them on the Internet when they first came out. So that's how she's going along here. By 2016, she's not feeling well. Her health starts to rapidly decline here.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Rapidly decline. It's tough. Yeah. She just kind of out of nowhere. She just starts getting more and more ill. Jim, her ex-boyfriend, said that despite the fact that she had these growing health problems and she was real frustrated with it and didn't know how to deal with it, she would still visit him and his girlfriend at their home. She'd still stop by and say hi.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how that goes here. It's very easy. We think it's actually a little more tasteful to try to put some humor in around it. Nothing funny about the actual murder, but we've had, you know, it's usually I think I can get away with this is right away a pretty funny thought for regular people, for the most part, who can't get away with it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And he even said she'd bring treats and stuff. She would say she got stomach aches or whatever, and she would always have to leave, though. Oh, that's how she would get out of there. So she starts having a hard time around the house because of her illnesses. So Jesse here, Jesse decides she's going to come in and help her out.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Why not? This lady has been nice to her as a kid. You're supposed to help people out when they get older. So that's what she's doing here. And this is in 2016. She comes to kind of she doesn't live with her, but she's there all the time. And, you know, she leaves at night and stuff, but she's always hanging out with her doing stuff.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So much so that Lynn had a will drawn up in 2016 naming Jesse as personal representative, which is the equivalent of an ex an executor in Wisconsin.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Exactly. And she and Anthony Pazza, her friend's son, son, who's like an aunt to her to him. They are the co-beneficiaries.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, so Jesse's supposed to be the executor and deal with it, but she's supposed to get the benefits to both of them. So yeah, I guess Jesse sent Anthony some paperwork of accounts she was settling and all that later on. So Anthony's involved in the whole will and the estate process here. Now, how sick is she? We'll talk about here.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I guess there were times where she would fall like out of nowhere. She just have a fall like she was 90, which is hard because she's in her early 60s and doesn't feel like she should be falling. And she spent her life making a living on her feet, too.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, you do that. So Jesse would have to go and help her get up. Like she would come over to the house and help her up and, you know, stay with her a while. And apparently she had a lung disease of some kind. She had high blood pressure and severe gastrointestinal issues, which the doctors were never able to diagnose. This is the thing. She has been for like the last year in 2016.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's been super ill. And going to the doctor all the time, even being in the hospital, you know, checked in for days. And they're never. Oh, lady. They can't put a finger on it of what exactly is wrong with her or what's causing it or what she can do to fix it or anything like that. They just keep bringing her back, which is frustrating.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It sounds like she's got some, she's been eating. Sounds like you've been eating some weird shit and, you know, you live in near factories probably growing up here maybe for the lung disease.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
What do you say in weight? Let's just say in like net weight. How many cheese curds do you eat a day? Just what I'd like to know that fried. You like them fried, don't you? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
How many trucks do you say would be needed to deliver the curds to your house that you've had in the last year? Just like end to end. How many?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Like the big trucks, like the one that hit Tracy Morgan, one of those, like a big giant one. How many? That's what it sounds like. So Jesse was always with Lynn at this point and became kind of her full-time caretaker, as it goes. Jesse would do the grocery shopping, pay her bills, all the shit she didn't have enough strength to do.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So that's how that goes here. So if you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, I don't know. We might not be for you, but we might be for you. You might want to check it out and make sure. So either way, no complaining later. But for the rest of you that want to hear a crazy story, we have this for you. And I think it's time. Let's all sit back.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I don't know what that's about, especially if you've been very active your whole life. She has been real active. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's tough. And she's lucky to have someone like Jesse around that'll help her out. Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of people that age, especially if you don't have kids. They might not have anybody to help them out. So it's great that she did. This is a good investment of being nice to a kid at one point, and you get some returns now. So she also has a boyfriend. Jesse does, not Lynn.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Jesse's got a boyfriend named Scott Craig, and they got together this same year in 2016. They hooked up here. So Jesse got a boyfriend and a person to take care of in 2016. Now, Scott has four kids.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
golly scotty scotty boy is fertile they all love jesse apparently jesse gets along with the kids they now as a couple they like to go out to bars they go to his kids sporting events he had a daughter that had all sorts of softball tournaments okay so jesse had to go watch someone else's kid play softball tournaments which is always fun they went to casinos a bunch too
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
A lot of gambling, a lot of casinos. The Midwest casinos are a very popular activity.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, well, in the casinos, too, I think a lot of that is the cold weather. It's something to do indoors. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? It's an indoor activity.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of bingo and fish fries and that kind of shit. Yeah. So that's what they kind of do here. One of Craig, Scott Craig's cousins, Daniel, was living with Craig for a little bit a while while Jesse was also living there. So all in the house. Now, Jesse said she worked as a dental assistant. But this cousin started to suspect that she didn't have a job.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said she had a job and she would put scrubs on every morning and leave. And then she would return a few hours later like she'd worked a day. But this guy was like, something's off here. So he confronted her about it, which is crazy because it's not even his girlfriend he just confronted.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Like, who cares? First of all, it's none of your business. So, you know, tell your cousin and see if he wants to investigate it. Otherwise, mind your fucking business.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You know, I don't think she's going where she said. I think she's lying. Well, I mean, I'm not with her or anything. It's none of my business, but I'm going to talk to her about it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Let's all clear the lungs, arms to the sky, and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Here we go. We are going to Pewaukee, Wisconsin. And that's how it's said. It's P-E and then walkie like Milwaukee. W-A-U-K-E-E. P-Walkie. It's not P-Walkie. It's P-Walkie.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So she folded and confided in him that, yes, indeed, she has been out of work for the last six months and hadn't told Craig about it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Putting on scrubs and leaving the house, yes. Like a man in the 50s who's lost his job and is too ashamed to tell anyone.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Before he fucking jumps off a bridge. Yeah, that's... That's a very weird thing. So he was like, why would you do that? And he's like, oh, I didn't want Craig to think less of me that I didn't have a job and all that kind of thing. Where the fuck is she going all day? That's the thing. She goes over to Lynn's sometimes, hangs out with her, does stuff like that, goes shopping.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, that's what she does. Well, I mean, she's sort of nursing, so why not?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So they said that even though she didn't have a job, Jesse still managed to spend a good amount of money. She seemed to have money. That's why Craig never questioned that she had a job, because she'd be buying things. She would give people gifts. She'd give the kids gifts. They'd go to the bar. She'd spring for dinner tabs sometimes. They'd go out to the casino. She'd be gambling like he was.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They were both gambling, and they're separate money, her and her boyfriend. And he said she never asked to borrow money or anything like that. Yeah. She seemed to be doing fine and being able to pay her bills. And so the cousin, though, said, quote, it seemed like there was no end to the money she had. There was always money, a lot of spending at the bar, drinks for people, food for people.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Which seems odd for an unemployed dental assistant.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Very strange here. She even offers to give people money that you wouldn't expect. One of Scott's ex-wife, the mother of his kids, a woman named Jacqueline here, they remained on good terms. Everybody in the Midwest is so easy to get along with. All these people have amicable breakups and they hang out afterwards. Right. This is crazy. You people are nice, man.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You have to avoid a whole grocery store. Like a whole section of town you have to avoid.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Can't go to that bar. So that's, I guess, they have three kids and then he has another one with somebody else. Okay. Now, she said this Jacqueline said she was civil with Jesse as well. They met at a fast pitch softball tournament where one of Scott's kids was playing in. And I guess they have an adult daughter.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
OK, Scott and this woman have an adult daughter who is in Thailand at the time doing some sort of school, which is an odd place to go for school. But I don't know what kind of what you can learn over there that you can't learn over here. I'm not sure. I'm sure there's something Thai. That's one thing. So this lady was saying, oh, man, she teaches English over there. So.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So now the ex-wife was saying how, man, I wish I could go see her. But that trip to Thailand is fucking expensive and all that kind of thing. Long, long trip. So Jesse offers to pay for her trip to Thailand. She said, I'll buy you a ticket to Thailand. That's expensive. And she's offering that to her boyfriend's ex-wife, which is a very odd gesture. I mean, nice, I guess. Now, this woman declined.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This week in Pewaukee, Wisconsin, what appears to be a tragic tale of a person giving up on life is actually a most diabolical plot to murder an innocent person with a very unique weapon and get everything they had. Welcome to Small Town Murders. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said, no, no, no. I can't take that. It's the Midwest here. I can't be taking that from you here.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
um she said she was always curious how the hell she had that kind of money to just throw at her yeah because she didn't seem like you know she wasn't a wealthy person didn't come from a rich family or anything like that so tooth this goes on through 2016 2017 where jesse's taking care of lynn and um you know all that kind of thing is going on here and it doesn't seem like she has a job through this time yeah
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So 2018, Lynn has been in and out of the hospital quite a bit.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She keeps getting sick and being taken to the hospital. They don't know what's wrong with her. They send her home after a few days when she feels a little bit better. Then at the same time, Anthony, the quasi-nephew, said... That during this time, she'd always talk about her money, Linwood. She'd say it's disappearing. I don't know what's happening to my money. It's just disappearing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I thought I had more and I look and then I have less money than I thought I had. And I don't know what's going on here. So they said that, you know, they asked Anthony said, well, who's in charge of your money? Like, are you in charge of everything? And she said, well, you know, I appointed Jesse my power of attorney so she could pay my bills and do stuff like that.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I don't know why they had to turn their town name into a strange sexual act, but they've done it. It's strange. It is just outside Milwaukee, to the west of Milwaukee. It's about 20 minutes to Milwaukee if you want to do that. About an hour and 40 down to Chicago. And two hours and 20 minutes to our last Wisconsin episode in Tomah, Wisconsin, which was Dark Swamp Death. I remember that one.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So Anthony is like, well, you know, maybe you should.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
talk to her look into this because yeah if she's the one doing it i don't know so now in august of 2018 um anthony said that lynn appeared to be improving in health in august of 2018 she seemed to be getting stronger uh she said he said quote she said she was starting to feel better and she's like you know i'm fine you know i'm glad i'm getting out again
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And, you know, we need to go out more often. It's good for me to get out of the house. So she started to get to the point where she was actually leaving the house again and doing social things. So that's great. Now, September 2018 comes along here. Jim, remember Lynn's ex-boyfriend Jim, their buddies there? He called one night. Him and his girlfriend called Lynn's number, I guess, on speakerphone.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And Jim says, quote, well, this girl answered the phone and she was kind of mouthing off to us. Quote, don't use this. Don't use this phone. Don't call this number ever again. Don't worry about Lynn. Don't you worry about her. Fuck you. What are you, longtime friend? Don't worry about her health, you asshole. So he gets this call or he calls and gets this response. He's like, what the fuck?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And he said, you know, at that point he was telling his girlfriend, I got to find out what the hell is going on from Lynn here because I can't even talk to her. So a few days later, he said he got a call from Lynn. He was happy. She was in the hospital. In September, late September of 2018. And she said that she should be getting out in a few days and let's get plans to get together.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
We'll make plans to get together with you and your girlfriend and we'll have a whatever. So she's discharged from the hospital on September 29th, 2018. Discharged. And Jesse is helping her out, taking her home. Now, we don't know what goes on from September 29th to October 3rd.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Not a lot of info on what is going on with Lynn, other than I assume she is recovering at home from being in the hospital is all you can imagine. Then on October 3rd, 2018, a 911 call goes out from her house, from Lynn's house, made by Jesse.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said she came in and found her friend unconscious and not breathing. And she needs, you know. Medical assistance. Medical assistance. Everybody get him over here. She's passed out in her recliner is what she said. Oh. So a sheriff's deputy arrives first to find Lynn lying unconscious in a recliner. He called her very pale. She looked very pale. For Wisconsin, that's saying something.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
When someone in Wisconsin calls you pale, you have no blood in your face at all.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, you can see the blood in your veins is what you can see. See your heartbeat. You are a human swatch at that point. Human swatch watch. We all see the interior. So they said also that there was, this is a quote from the police report, quote, a large amount of crushed medication on her chest.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And on a plate directly to the left of her with a large amount of what appeared to be crushed up medication still on the plate. Right now, there is also just a ring of pill bottles, tons of prescription pill bottles, which she's a sick woman who just got out of the hospital. So there's all all sorts of different meds there. But crushing them up on a plate is a different story.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, that's totally different. So the the police report said, based on the initial observations, investigators believe this could have been a drug overdose of some kind. She could have just OD'd in her recliner and she's sitting there. So they have a picture of the close-up of the bottles, and there's a lot. Some have their caps on. Some don't have their caps on, prescription bottle-wise.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
There was death in the swamp. It was nasty. This is in Waukesha County, area code 262. Now, a little bit of history of this town. The city of Pewaukee wasn't actually incorporated until 1999. But there's been people here forever here. It basically they used to have a village of Milwaukee of Pewaukee and they had other shit and they established it there.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And I guess they photographed multiple of her medications were scattered on the carpet as well. There was, like, pills and bottles and shit all over the carpet, as well as white powder on a plate and on her chest, like we said. So... Right away they're thinking this could be either an accidental overdose or even possibly a suicide because of the amount of pills and the amount of crushed up pills.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This could have been I'm going to just snort pills till I die type of thing is what they were thinking. So the chief medical examiner says that she saw the pills and the powder scattered all over. She said there was a thought that maybe there was an ingestion that was possibly a cause for the death. So that's what they were going to look into.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
If you find someone dead with all these pills around, first thing you're doing is a bunch of toxicology reports to figure out. If this is the reason or if this is some sort of cover up of the reason. So now Jim, the friend, ex-boyfriend of Lynn. Right. He had never met Jesse, by the way, somehow. Really? Yeah. Even though the last two years Jesse's been there all the time and they're friends.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The only time Jim ever sees Lynn is if Lynn comes over to their house. He never has gone over there. So he doesn't meet Jesse. What a friend. Yeah, that's interesting.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She wanted to. She didn't want people coming to her house. She wanted to come over to their house all the time. She liked to go out. So Jim says, I get a phone call from Jessie and she says I have some bad news. Lynn committed suicide. Oh, that's what she told Jim and quote. And by the way, we're going to have a dinner for her on the 13th at the open flame restaurants, the open flame restaurant.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
He said she said it in one sentence like, oh, I have some bad news. Lynn committed suicide. And by the way, we're going to have dinner for her on the 13th at the open flame restaurant. OK, have a good one. Bye. Click. That was like the whole phone call.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Goodbye. So, wow. And he was like, oh, my God, what the fuck? And Jim says, well, I didn't I kind of didn't believe her right off the bat. She wasn't crying. So he at first didn't believe that Lynn was actually dead. Oh, because he's like, she wasn't even crying. Like, she was just calling me up.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's like, very matter of factly, like someone telling you your appointment to have your fucking water softener removed. fucking shit replaced like you know oh we moved to Thursday okay no problem yeah really weird and and Jim said he couldn't believe that Lynn would kill herself I know she was sick, but she had a spirit. She had a good witch of the north kind of a spirit to her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You know what I mean? Dorothy didn't just quit. She kept plugging on. You know what I mean? You plug on.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, you're running. Glenda. Glenda. Glenda the good witch. Yeah. Yeah. So you plug on. Maybe you pick up a tin man and a lion here or there and you figure it out. That's what you do. Move along. Yeah. You pick your little dog up and you fucking go forward. Now, now that she's she has passed away, obviously terribly and sadly here.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Anthony, who is the co-beneficiary of her, her will said that at that point he found out that most of her assets had been eaten away by debt.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
He said, I just felt like something was up and I wanted to look at it more closely. I just remember getting a final account with just a bunch of credit card bills. And it was just weird how she had all these debts that just didn't make any sense to me. She had $83 in her account when she died.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Eighty three dollars. So somehow she that's why they think, oh, well, maybe it was a suicide. She spent all her money and she was like, well, I'm broke now. I guess I'll just kill myself.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's it. Yeah. You get that. Enjoy it. So the toxicology report here, they wanted to get their test results there. And they said they definitely had a bunch of prescription drugs in her system at therapeutic levels, though.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Not at ultra high levels enough to kill a person. That's what they found. So they were like, maybe there's some interactions with the drugs. If you take this one and this one together, maybe even at therapeutic levels. So the medical examiner said, though, quote, there was a substance that I was that was unusual, an unusual finding I hadn't seen in a report from their facility before.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The town originally the village was, I guess, approved in 1840 or something. And it grew and settlers started to come. And I guess it was a good farming community. And there's a big lake here too, Pewaukee Lake. So this is considered like a different lifestyle than Milwaukee completely. This is like the burbs and there's a lake and it's like, you know.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It was it was called tetrahydrozoline.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, tetrahydrozoline probably. Yeah. So this lady says, I don't even know what this is. What the fuck is that? And she's a medical examiner, but it's never come up in a dead person. It's usually not in a body. No. So she said, what is it? She found out it is the active ingredient in over-the-counter eye drops, lysine.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. That's that. Okay. She was like, oh, weird. She said, this is a substance that I haven't seen in a toxicology report before. It's not supposed to be in the blood. Yeah. This is the medical examiner of the county. She's never seen this before in a toxicology report being in somebody's body. So she thought that was weird.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Now, other results from the report showed she had at least eight prescription drugs in her system. Okay. Some of which she was not supposed to be taking at the time because those medications had been stopped by her doctors. But she got them anyway and had them anyway.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So they said that in her, the medical examiner said in her determination, those medications, along with her medical conditions, contributed to her death but did not cause her death. OK. So they were all at therapeutic levels. So they didn't cause her death. None of them was over spiked. None of their because they know like if this drug kills you, this is what it does to the organ.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So they look through it and to see if that's the case. And they never came up with anything. So.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Also, the medical examiner starts to believe that her body was staged to make it look like an overdose because toxicology reports showed that none of the crushed up medication that was found on her chest, just on her bare chest or on her shirt and on her cleavage and on this plate, none of that stuff was in her system. Other pills were in her system, but none of the shit that was crushed up.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So unless she died before she got to snorting it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's very interesting. Off her own tits. Yeah. I like snorting shit off tits, even if they're my own.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she's got Visine in her system, which is strange.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So the funeral, there is no service per Lynn's wishes. In her will, she had no service, no funeral. Just a nice dinner at the open flame. A dinner at the open flame and directs all donations if you were going to send flowers or something. Instead of that, send donations to no-kill animal shelters because that's what she's into. So she's a nice lady is what I'm saying here.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So January 2019, one of her friends goes to the cops. OK, this is one of her cousins, like a distant cousin, I believe. She contacted the county medical examiner's office with concerns about the circumstances of Lynn's death. And this cousin said he found it unusual that Lynn would have willed her entire estate to Jesse. He said, I don't understand that.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So this guy checked records at the state level to see if Jesse had a criminal record and saw several convictions for forgery and fraud.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Much more like an outdoor kind of a not even a suburban. It's even more than that. It's interesting here. There's a clear spring lake there, which will make things nice. And that's ideal for all sorts of shit. They used for commercial use. They got ice out of it back in the day.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So, yeah, the police report said that this person wanted to make sure that the will filed in probate was authentic and wanted to make sure there was nothing suspicious about Lynn's death in the medical examiner's autopsy report. So he's like, listen, I did some digging on my end and I found this.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I don't know if you guys got some suspicious shit on your end, but if we put these two things together, who the fuck knows?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So they found out that, yes, Jesse has a criminal record. In 2011, she was convicted on charges of identity theft and forgery and was sentenced to eight years in prison because this was not her first arrest for this shit. And she had been released from prison in early 2016, which is when she started spending time with Lynn and right at the same exact time when Lynn's health deteriorated.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Like the day she got out of prison, Lynn's health started being bad. She was fine her whole life before that. Okay, so there's obviously some weird shit going on here. What the hell's going on? How did she meet her? A little, both through her mom. She was friends. She knew her since she was a little kid.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yep. She was another one of Lynn's little nieces, basically. One of Lynn's kids. One of Lynn's kids. So a few months go by at this point.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
While they're trying to figure this out and they're putting all these pieces together. And Jesse calls the cops for an update.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, she wants to see what's going on. How is everything? You find anything out yet here? What the fuck here? Now, she comes in with her mother. And this is on YouTube. This is the whole interview, by the way. And it's her and her mother sitting there. And Jennifer Flower is her mother, which I think is the name of the lady who Bill Clinton had an affair with. I think that's true.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Jennifer Flowers, I believe, was the hairdresser. She was a hairdresser, too.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Which is interesting. It's all connecting. So she sits down here and Jesse says, and this is actual from the interview from the police interview here. Jesse says, you know, when I talked to the medical examiner last, well, I talked to them numerous times and they said I had to contact you guys. They kind of like weren't sure we didn't know if it was a suicide or if it was something medical.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the detective says, so at this point, I mean, they're waiting for their for their secondary. You know, they're confirming tests is what he said. So she says, yeah. And she says, I just wish I knew, you know, it's more so to if I could have done something and if I had been there, that's the hardest part. Because her story is she was with her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She went out for a few hours to run errands, came back to Jesse's house, and here she is. She's like, I left. If I was there, could I have prevented something? So then they went into some of her issues. They also touched on her drug use as well. Now, Jesse says that Lynn abused prescription drugs and frequently mixed it with alcohol as well. Frequently boozing it up as well.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said, quote, she was really big on her Xanax. That was her big one.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Real big on it. Her and everybody else. Her and a lot of other people. Her and anybody that's tried it. Oh, shit. So she said, they said, well, what's your relationship with her? Never mind all this. Let's talk about, you know, let's just chat. They're just having a chit chat. And Jesse says she was like an aunt, like a second mom to me. She didn't have kids.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So they said, so you've known her your whole life and that's kind of why you were helping her out. And she said, yeah, yeah. She's always been real nice to me. She said that she was about the only person still in Lynn's life at this point. She said, quote, she pretty much blew everyone off possible in the end. She'd say, no, I don't want to see anybody.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Which is believable because if she's sick, she might not want people to see her in that condition. But yeah, according to Jesse and her mother here, Lynn was so withdrawn that she didn't even want to talk to her friend Jim when he called.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Which doesn't make sense because then she's calling him from the hospital saying, let's get together when I get out of here. Jennifer, Jesse's mother, tells the cops, she said, do not tell him I don't want him here. I don't want to see him. And Jesse said she didn't like the way she looked, so she didn't want people around. That's what it was about. So that goes on for a little while longer.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's like a 35-minute conversation where they go really nowhere. She just says, I just want to know what happened. And they ask, how do you know her? And that's it. Kind of pleasantries. And she leaves with her mother. Then the detectives, by the way, while this is going on, are investigating the whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They're doing forensic accounting on Lynn's money and shit like that to see what happened here. And they... figure out that more than $250,000 has been stolen from Lynn.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Uh, yes, before and after she's, she died by the way. Oh, so they learned stuff about her accounts. Uh, I guess she had a money market account, which had around $250,000 in 2016, but after she died, had $87 in it. I'm sorry. I thought it was 83, $87 in it. Now, yeah, I would say so. Now, some of that was spent by Lynn on some jewelry and a Jeep that she bought, but not $250,000.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Jeeps are expensive, but not that expensive. That'd be a crazy fucking Jeep.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I was going to say, it's got the 45-foot lift kit on it. It's a big one.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, yeah. It flies also. Did I mention that? It flies and it's also amphibious. It's a great Jeep. So now everything else outside of the Jeep and some jewelry, including a total of 20 checks, all went to Jesse.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. Between January of 2016 and October 3rd of 2018, Jesse stole over $144,000 from Lynn. Yeah, that is a lot. She was getting checks out of Lynn's account with varying things in the memo notes like IRS payment, car payment, but it was just for her. She was just stealing it. None of the money was going to the places where Lynn was supposed to be sending them. So now she's... Now Lynn has...
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I believe that Pewaukee is a very family-friendly area with lots of activities. I believe that. She made it sound like it was something you have to.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Like debts that are building up now. Yeah, problems. Taxes and shit are compounding and stuff like that. It's crazy. So they matched each of the checks to deposits in Jesse's accounts as well to make sure they matched up, then tracked where Jesse spent that money.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And apparently, in the two weeks that Lynn was in the hospital before Lynn died there up until September 29th, there was a big spike in spending for Jesse.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And during that last hospital stay, money was being transferred from Lynn's account into Jesse's account. And then Jesse was withdrawing that money from ATMs at a local casino. At the casino.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, and if you win, they keep track of who you are.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, the least anonymous place you can go is a casino. Every square inch is covered in cameras and they keep track of all the transactions.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's everywhere. Yeah. So they also figure it found out that on the day that Lynn died. The day she died, a JCPenney credit card, which I didn't even know still existed in 2018. I didn't know you could get or 16. I didn't know you get a JCPenney credit card in 2016. The day this happened, a JCPenney credit card was opened in Lynn's name the day she died after she was dead already.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I have faith in that. That's a thing. You can just look. One of the big attractions to Pewaukee is the downtown area that has some cute shops, is on the water, and hosts a variety of events throughout the year. And then in parentheses, ski shows, et cetera. Right. Ski shows. Ski shows. Watch other people ski, not you. May as well. Three stars. I live in an apartment complex in Pewaukee.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. Yeah. Now, first of all, she didn't go to fucking JCPenney and open a card. She doesn't have online access. Yep. Just days later, a $3,000 purchase of furniture made on another credit card in Lynn's name was delivered to the home of Jesse and Scott Craig.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And her boyfriend. Now, the police talked to him and he said that, yeah, me and Jesse had spoken briefly about a new bedroom set for their home. And he said the talk ended with me saying, oh, we don't need a new bedroom set. And then he came home a few weeks later and three new bedroom sets had been delivered to the house.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
New beds, yeah. No house needs all new bedroom sets. You probably don't. It's just one of those things. He said he was unaware of the purchases also. Craig said, I don't know where the hell it came from. I don't know how she got it. I have no idea. Shit was here. So then they get into some phone stuff as well here. They get their digital forensic analyst to analyze Jesse's cell phone.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And they find an app on there that displays a phony phone number and hid the authentic number on cell phone displays.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, like Google. You can disguise your number. That's all. There's a ton of apps that do that.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Scheme, connive. It's either that or sex. And see porn. Yeah. Yeah. It's either to get sex scheme or connive to get sex.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. And to make you look way more guilty if you do anything when you look at your phone, because all of this shit has tracks in some way, shape or form. So it's also doomed. So this detective obtained information and coordinates from cell towers that mapped all of the cell use by Jesse. And they also said it was Jesse's voice made on two phone calls made to Lynn's bank as well. They figured out.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And he says Jesse was using Lynn's credit cards while on a getaway with her boyfriend.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She was like, I'll pick up the tab and using Lynn's credit cards. Yeah. Out of 22 checks cut from Lynn's money market account opened in October 2014, 20 of those were to Jesse. This included transactions at bars and casinos, places that Lynn has never been before, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
These aren't her spots. These are Jesse's spots. Jesse's friend said that Jesse told her Lynn died after taking too much medication. Jesse told this young lady that she would pay bills, buy kids furniture and televisions and often go to the casinos with Lynn's money and write herself checks. So she was like bragging about her friend like, oh, this lady lets me do whatever I want with her money.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. So another cop said that Jesse was a suspect in a fraud case where she admittedly admitted that she was trying to open fraudulent accounts under her name of her upstairs neighbors. That's one of the things back in the day she went to jail for. So opening accounts in someone else's name is her jam that she does.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I mean, why not? I'll steal their identity. And Anthony, the quasi-nephew, he brought up Lynn's will after her death, signed paperwork making Jesse the personal representative of Lynn's estate. And following that, he started receiving the credit card bills and all that kind of shit. And he was like, that's some red flags there.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So July 9th, 2019. Now, this is three years later. Wow. Jesse's living at Scott's house doing all sorts of shit. The cops come and raid the house for Jesse.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
for fraud charges because they got her on all these fraud charges and uh this is the end of their relationship by the way scott this is the final straw they fucking ripped his house apart looking for shit searching it and he was like he has kids and shit he's like i don't know fuck this this is this is crazy which is in a small town murder episode that is as normal an activity as someone could have to go you made the cops rip my house apart and scare my kids we're finished it's over
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I've lived there for two years and have enjoyed my time in the area. It's a good place to live where everything I need is a small drive away. It gives me the ability to be able to get to my job in a short amount of time, but also the distance where I can retreat to home.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's a very normal thing that usually doesn't happen on this show.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So the medical examiner at this point also has a conclusion for the cause of death and everything like that. And from the report, it says the cause of death I determined was tetrahydrazine poisoning.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Hydrozoline. Tetrahydrozoline poisoning.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the medical examiner ruled that Lynn probably didn't deliberately drink this much eyedrop formula. So she said how this injury occurred is that she was given the tetrahydrozoline by another, which is why I called it a homicide. So it's ruled a homicide.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No, that's never happened before. They're called eye drops. The crazy part is just last week on Patrol or Live PD or whatever the fuck it was, we turned it on and there was a situation in a Walgreens where someone was in the bathroom for a long time and they thought they were passed out or a junkie or something. And instead, this fucking woman in there
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
tried to put eyedrops in her eyes and instead put fucking wood glue in her eyes.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The bottles were both clear. They didn't look exactly alike, but if you were not paying attention on your phone, she glued her fucking eyes shut. If your eyes are fucked up. She glued her eyes shut and was in the bathroom trying to put water and get the glue out of her eyes. So her eyes were all fucked up and she's like, I'm okay. And then she had warrants and they arrested her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I was like, this fucking lady is having a bad night.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
they even asked her they asked her well how'd you get here do you have a way out or where how do you and she said well I my boyfriend dropped me off and they go and then he just left and she goes well he had to drop me off because he's married and I'm like this lady's night is a disaster holy shit Anyway, sorry, the eye drops thing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yes, it's the famous bartender's revenge. That's what it is.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
To make people up to shits, basically. That's all it is.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. Who the hell I people that like live across the street from their job is crazy to me. You just look out and see it all the time.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's the thing. If you put enough in to kill someone in their drink drink, they'd be like, I think you made my fucking martini week.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It tastes like tears. What's up with that? So detectives bring old Jessie back in to talk to her. She's in cuffs now because she's in jail from the fraud thing. Yeah. Yeah. Now, they say to her, they're trying to look at this as a murder, the cop says to her. They're, which I like that they do. They?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Not me, obviously. I'm here on your side, but they.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's a trick I use as a process server. I don't know what they want you to do. This is crazy. I'm the guy delivering. I don't know shit about anything.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's crazy. Wow. Those lawyers are assholes. That's what you always say. These fucking lawyers are...
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
fucking assholes man and they're like yeah okay and they take the papers and don't shoot you that's how it works that's how you get out of being murdered on someone's fucking front doorstep so jesse after being told they're looking at it as a murder jesse says that's just insane to me and is this why i'm here and the detective says one of the reasons yeah and they said jesse said do you guys think i murdered her
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the guy goes, did you? Which is a very good question at that point.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she says, I swear to God, I didn't.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
All right. That's a decent start. No would have been a great thing to say. No, absolutely not. Fucking crazy. No.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's horrifying. The area and people have treated me kindly. And then finally, two stars. Pewaukee is just okay. There's not much to do, in my opinion. You must not like lake activities. He doesn't believe it. Not a big laker here. I ended up finding myself just hanging around Walmart or Meijer. That's like a food store.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. So the detective says, typically, would you go there in the morning or the night or. And Jesse says, I didn't have a set. It just depended how she was doing the day before. And, you know, that kind of thing. So then they talked to her about the money. Well, if you didn't show up at a certain time or like days, how did she pay you? Basically, because you got money from these checks.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So how does that work? And she said that, well, she said, I got that money because Lynn's been paying me for helping her. They said, OK, do you have like an official arrangement? Like I make twenty dollars an hour or anything like that. You know, whatever. She said, no, no, no. There was nothing. No, nothing like that. I mean, there was no, you know, one day. Oh, here's a check. One day.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Here's my card. Go get this one day. I mean, it was no, no set. And then the detective says no set amount.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
By the way, that was a word salad that she gave out there.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Got nowhere. She got like a bunch of half sentences, basically. That's a bad sign to not have an A to B explanation of that. So no set amount. Jesse says, no, I mean, she'd help out. She'd tell my mom, oh, this month I'm going to pay your rent or I'm going to pay your car. Who does that, by the way? Nobody. Hey, I just decided this month I'll pay your car payment, normal, able-bodied adult.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. I called them. I paid your mom's rent for some reason.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So strange. Very, very strange. So then they said, listen, it's the autopsy that we're concerned with here.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Toxicology reports. The guy says there's an anomaly in her toxicology. There's a drug in her system that's not supposed to be there. Right. And Jesse says, and what would that be? Uh-oh. And he says, it's called tetrahydrazine. Hydrozoline. Hydrozoline. They misspelled it on here. So then I was like, there's an L in there somewhere. Where is it? Tetrahydrozoline. And Jess says, what is that?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the detective says, more commonly known as eye drops.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You know, the shit that when you're stoned, you'd put in your eyes as a teenager so your parents wouldn't know. You know that stuff? Yeah. Yeah. So Jesse right away says she uses eye drops all the time.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the guy says, what did she use them for?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Which is a good question here. Jesse says she used them for her eyes. She'd put them in her eyes all the time. How much gallons? How much of it did she put in her eyes?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Leaked into her mouth and through her fucking nasal cavity.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
What's she doing? So the detective says, what killed her is the eye drops. And Jesse says, are you serious? And she's all like, oh my God. And the detective says, mm-hmm. He's just like, yep, don't say a word. Let her try to get out of this. You know what I mean? So at that point, he says, like, the medical examiner thinks someone gave her the eye drops orally in an attempt to kill her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's what the medical examiner's report says. So Jesse says, do you guys think I murdered her? Ma'am. And he says again, did you?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she says, I swear to God I didn't. I did not.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No, because she took the contraction away.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So the detective says, seems like you're the one who had the most to gain from this. You know, qui bono here, bitch. What's going on? Yeah. Yeah, the detective said also that they found out through her phones that you know all about tetrahydrozoline, as a matter of fact. Oh?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Because we saw in text messages with your boyfriend, Scott, that someone had put it in your drink when you were at a bar about three months after Lynn's death.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, I think it's another target. Midwest market. Yeah. Yeah, with friends as something to do. Yeah, you know you're in a boring place when you're like, I guess we'll just walk around Walmart. That's rough.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And then the detective reads the text out.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You to Scott. Scott, I don't feel good. And, you know, she said she went to the hospital after that. And here are her texts. They said my blood pressure is really bad. I have traces of tetrahydrozoline in my blood. The doctor said that's the main ingredient in eye drops. He said people put it in people's drinks all the time. He said there's no taste to it and people don't notice. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And then she also says, quote, you can die from that. So she's acting like, what do you mean, when she described this exact fucking thing to her boyfriend. So they're at an impasse. They say, did you kill her? And she says, no. You sure? Yeah. Promise? Scouts on her? And she's like, fucking awful. I got it all. Swear to God. Never mind. So they go, okay. They send her back to her cell.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The next day, she said, I want to talk to you guys again. Hey, guys.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I got some things to say here. So this is after spending her first night in jail because that was when they arrested her was that one. Now she's got a different story. Okay. Now, at first she said, yeah, she used eye drops all the time in her eyes. Now she says, quote, I was up all night trying to think of everything and anything. I was thinking of the Visine's.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, the Visines. And that's on purpose, too. That's not just like her talking weird here. She says, quote, she was drinking vodka and Visine. The worst mixer ever. The worst mixer.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Vodka Visine. A V&V, please. Thank you. Vodka Red Bull is disgusting, but this is another level. You know what I mean? This is the worst mixer ever. Fuck a Tom Collins mix. Fuck a grapefruit juice and orange juice and this and that. This is the most disgusting mixer. Let me get a V&V.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Eh, fuck it, I guess. We need a vodka and Visine. Clear Eyes okay? I guess. That is awful. I guess if all you have is well, fine.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
See if they get any new lures in the fishing section. Like, what else do you do? People in Pewaukee are also very judgmental about situations. and don't accommodate well for lower-class citizens. They don't like the poor, and they're very judgmental. Lower class. Lower class. People in this town, 15,589 people, so pretty small to be that close to Milwaukee.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That OpCon A shit, that's the top shelf. That's like a Johnny Walker Blue. You know what I mean? A shot of that's going to cost you.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said she was drinking vodka and Vizine.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Thank you for clearing that up. Thank you. All right. Send her back to her cell. Give her a good food tonight, too. Extra. We're going to order her a pizza in her cell.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Thank you. So the detective here says, how do you know she mixed Visine with her vodka, you said? Yeah, she had me making it. She says because that's what she did.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the detective asks the question, I think, every single of the hundreds of thousands of people listening right now, why? Who the fuck would do that? That's a great one. Why? And Jesse says, she's done it about three times. And the detective says, why, number one. Then he says, and another why, why didn't you tell us about this yesterday when we brought it up?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she says, quote, because I didn't want to tell you guys because you guys are making it sound like it happened the day of. And that's not when she was doing that. Oh, OK. But that makes no sense of why you didn't tell us this shit. So the detective says, did you ever put the vodka in the visine? Did you ever put the vodka or the visine into the vodka?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
How did you do this? Are you the bartender here? Is it shaken? How does this work? Is it a martini form? How many olives does she like, or does she prefer a pearl onion? Yeah. Jesse says, never. Swear to God. She loves to swear to God, this one.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So the detective said, so she put the Visine in her vodka.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And Jesse says, yep. Okay. Then she said, there's a pause, like them staring at her like she's got seven fucking heads, obviously. Right. Like, you're going to have to elaborate. Lady, we don't get it. Further, she says, quote, she was looking for a way out.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You had a long night in jail to sit and think about this shit. And your first night in jail, you probably didn't sleep very well. So they go, she's looking for a way out, but you didn't help her with that way out, did you? Did you do that? And she said, quote, I never mixed it, I swear to God. I bought it for her. I knew she was mixing it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She put it into her water once in a while and in her vodka once in a while. This makes no fucking sense, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she says later she buys like six bottles of it at a time of Visine, which is enough to make a whole drink. So they kept going back to, why wouldn't you tell us this information yesterday?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
What's the deal? How could you not tell us that when we told you and you acted like, oh, weird. I don't know. Like, that's fucking crazy. We've talked to you twice and in none of those times, even though you've done research. Right. Because you were poisoned to know that it's poisonous and it could kill you. You still didn't bring that up knowing that she drinks the shit literally as a mixer.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
with vodka wow shot chaser or mixer she doesn't really she did say she's mixing it right mixing it with Vizine that's crazy Jesse then says that one time that once Lynn started having so much Vizine at the house just laying around that that's when Jesse researched it too that's why I looked it up then because I was like why does she have all this Vizine then Jesse said that Lynn tried pills twice but it didn't work
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So then she said that Lynn had dumped Visine into a bottle of vodka for days prior to her death. She was like drinking off this Visine and vodka bottle that she had mixed together. She claims that Lynn became very ill twice before her death from drinking Visine and was, quote, shitting all over. Yeah. This poor woman. This poor fucking woman. And she can have no dignity in death even.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I mean, it's 20 minutes outside of Milwaukee. More females than males. Median age is slightly above the average. It's 44. It's 38 in the rest of the country, but... That most of that is because this is like it's an expensive place. It's not a place you move when you're, you know, 23 and get a starter house. This is like, you know, you have two kids and you've been saving up or whatever.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's like, I don't know, she's just drinking Vizine and shitting all over the place. Okay. Wow. She said then Lynn made her, give me your phone, because, you know, Lynn doesn't have a smartphone.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So she said that Lynn made her give her her phone so that she could research suicide methods. Oh, let me see your phone. I want to do a little research on suicide methods. She said that Lynn bought a gun with which she intended to kill herself and had fat. In fact, that Jesse had saved Lynn from killing herself on at least two occasions.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
After the first time happened, she walked in and found Lynn with a gun in her hand and she's talked her out of it. And then two other occasions, she talked her down from a suicidal ledge, basically. Wow. Yeah. And they're like, she's shitting all over the place. She's covered in shit and I'm saving her anyway.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
When you mix shit and weird cocktails and all sorts. This is a strange story.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So they're at an impasse again where they keep saying that. She's going, I don't know, man. She just likes Visine. And they went back and forth. And they were like, anything else? And she's like, nope. Just wanted to tell you that she likes Visine. And she mixes it with her vodka. And she's like, I'll be going back to my cell now. And then the next day, guess what she does?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Hey, guys. Can I talk to you one more time? Yeah. They're getting tired of her by now. I can't.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You're just a talky murder suspect. You really are.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Holy shit. Third time in three days. Yeah. And she says this quote. She said she lost like feeling of her body. It made her feel good. And I honestly and I honestly she was doing it for so long that I didn't think she was going to die far from it. I really didn't. I thought, OK, she was getting some sleep from it. That's it. She was doing it for two months at least.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yes, Visine. I think the vodka would be the active ingredient in sleepiness, I would imagine. Because when I drink vodka, I get sleepy.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No Visine in it at all. We had those martinis, came back. You said, I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'll see you in a minute. And we both passed out. That's what happened in our separate quarters. Yeah, too much Visine last night. Yeah, man, I didn't realize I just put too many drops in my eyes. That was the problem.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Nothing. Wow, and it made her feel good. She was doing it for two months, and the detective said, doing what? And she said, the Visine. Of course.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said now she says that Lynn actually did drink visine the day she died. Remember before she said her whole reason for showing up yesterday was because they thought she was drinking it the day she died when she wasn't. And she needed to tell them that she's been doing it for a long time. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Now she claims, whole new story, that when she visited Lynn that morning, that Jesse knew that Lynn had poured six bottles of Visine. Golly. A sixer, she did. A whole six pack.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's crazy. Into her own water bottle.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And then you move out to the burbs here. Sixty nine percent of the people here are married, which is. Oh, boy. It's 50-50 in the rest of the country. That is wild. Way out of whack here. The single with children here, 6.9%, which is about as low as we've ever seen in a town that has more than 200 people in it. So super, super low.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And Jesse said that bottle of water right there had six Visines.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Visine is a drop thing. Two drops in each eye. It doesn't say anything about how many bottles you use for anything.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
it's like five drops then and it's all over your face and you're like oh jesus christ got more in my ear than in my eye you're trying not to get it in your mouth because you don't want to be shitting yourself later so you're like ah doing that shit wiping it all off with your shoulder fucking six vizines six vizines she she threw a sixer down man she was raging that night having a rager
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's what I mean. This story is bonkers, dude. It's fucking bonkers. Vizine.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I know. She had a 40, and she just was hitting it, man. It's too bad they don't make it in kegs. That would be great. So Jesse says, I didn't put it in there. I gave her a bottle of water. You know, what she does with her own water. I figured it was like those flavor drops people put in. I don't know. One of those things.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So the detective said, which is the one you know has six bottles of Visine in it? And she says, yep. Okay. And they said, because she told you and you give it to her. Is that it? And Jesse says, well, we argued about it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said that they spent 10 minutes going back and forth trying. She was trying to stop her from, you know, this fatal visine dose. Please put the visine down. That's all I ask of you is not something that you hear very often. And she said, Jesse said, quote, she said, no, I want that bottle of water. It'll put me to sleep. Or just drink vodka. And the detective says, and then you gave in?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And Jesse says, yep. Yep. It's her choice and what she wanted. And they said, and then you left. And she says, yep. So they said, well, what about, you know, what about the JCPenney credit card that you opened in her name and went grocery shopping? And what about that? You were so sad you bought, you know, you got a nearly defunct store's credit card and then went grocery shopping?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Did you stop at Sears afterwards, too, anywhere else? Fucking Circuit City? Did you figure out Montgomery War? Yeah, what's happening? Yeah. So Jesse, after all those questions, says, quote, I didn't do it to her, though. I didn't. And starts crying and sobbing. I didn't do it to her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
In your way. Yeah. Then they find they ask her about, well, there's deleted files from your phone for searches for various poisonings. This is both before and after her death. One one of them was, quote, cyanide dot PDF. Just cyanide.pdf. PDF form about all you need to know about cyanide, which is hilarious. That's one of the things she had on her phone, a file she downloaded.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Race of this town, 87.9% white, 0.8% black, 3.4% Asian, and what is it, 4.7% Hispanic. Sixty one percent of the people here are religious, a lot of religious religion here. And the highest one, oddly enough, is Catholic. Really? And it's 30 percent Catholic here, which I guess some of these Wisconsin, some of those pockets and then 15 percent Lutheran.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Where did she get that from? I'm sure you could find it at probably a scientific or a medical thing that describes the cyanide, how much, you know.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I didn't realize she downloaded it. No, didn't realize when that little thing jumped in her phone. I was like, oh, that's a download, lady. That little bouncing file thingy, that means you own that now.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Possibly. I'll bet she didn't. Possibly. Or I think maybe when you click on something, I guess it's on your phone, it might technically be a download that will save you cash possibly. I'm not sure how that works. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No, that's the other thing. I've never been on that one before. And oddly enough, I'm one of the few people who have reason to look for that kind of shit. That would somehow be not suspicious on my computer compared to everything else I look for. So then she maintained that Lynn would use her phone to look up ways to kill herself.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And that Jesse says she didn't remember searching for poisons a month before she was taken into custody either. She also claims she gave Lynn the water bottle filled with the eye drops the day she died because she always gives into what Lynn wants. You know, I just can't help it. She said, quote, I know that I'm probably going to prison for the rest of my life for helping her with what she wanted.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And then she keeps crying. She's a big crier, this one, too. Oh, she's always crying. Yeah, always crying. So then she is in custody and she makes a call to her boyfriend, Scott, who's not her boyfriend anymore. After the arrest.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
He's done with her because the cops raided his house and fucked the place up. So he accepted calls from her, though, while she was in custody for some reason. That's an easy click. Nope. Do you accept charges? Fuck no.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yep. And now obviously this is being recorded by the cops here. And he says on the recording, quote, you just kept making up more and more lies. You're diabolical. That's just crazy.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Which is the most normal reaction you could get. Scott's a real fucking normal guy. Yeah. Like I watched him testify in court. He's just like this dorky gray haired normal guy. Just like real run of the mill. And he's like. You know, yeah. Once father of four, for God's sake, he said, once cops come into my house and disrupt all this stuff with my kids, I can't be with a person like that anymore.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And I'm like, oh, my God, someone who's not trash. This is great. So he said later on that, you know, the kids, she was like she was like like a mother that Lynn was like a mother to Jesse, even though he never met Lynn Lynn. Jesse kept Lynn and Craig separated even.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Scott Craig is his name. Scott Craig. Scott. Scott. Scott. That's right. Yeah. That's his last name there. So that's very interesting. He also thought that he said, I never met her because I thought she was in a coma. Because that's what Jesse told me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he said that Jesse told me that she was in a coma for months prior to her death. So that's what I thought.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And by the way, Lynn was never in a coma. That never happened. No, no. She made it up.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, she's in a vodka coma. So on this recorded phone call, he says, why'd you tell me she was in a fucking coma? Why'd you lie to me about all that shit? And Jesse says, quote, I told you that to protect you for a reason.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So and Craig just says, quote, that's pretty disgusting. That's a disgusting thing to lie about. Scott Craig says. So, yeah. And then they talk about how she spent months without a job and pretended to go to work and that even while you're unemployed, you're giving my fucking kids gifts. You're you're offering to send my ex-wife to Thailand because you're stealing this fucking sick lady's money.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You're fucked up. Right. You're real fucked up. He levels her, man. It's fucking awesome. Then they find texts between Scott and Jesse indicating that Jesse, that's the Visine text when she was in the hospital and all that kind of thing. By the way, she was able to spell tetrahydrozoline correctly. She knows how to spell it? She's looked it up. That's why. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
After that, the unemployment rate is low here. A lot of a lot of employment opportunities, apparently. So that's low. I mean, Milwaukee's right there, too. So drive 20 minutes, go somewhere.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's like, yeah, when someone like, you know, talks, says something on social media about us and they spell my last name right without tagging me and having it filled in. That's always impressive. I'm like, oh, you must be a fan of the fucking show. Listen, yeah, that means she if she knows how to spell that she was looking at it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So then they talk about her, you know, deleted files about cyanide and poisoning and suicide and all of that. And they said also Jesse had, quote, Jesse sent detectives on a wild goose chase regarding the location of Lynn's safety deposit box, as well as gun parts and Visine bottles sealed in plastic bags that they never found. She was telling them, oh, you can find these here and this here.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
None of this stuff actually existed. She was just like wasting time. Oh, so she is finally charged with murder in 2021. That took a while. A long fucking time. What, three years? They had her in there because of the fraud anyway, so they had time to just put the case together and have the charges be whatever.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Now, if she makes bail, the conditions set by the court are no employment as a caregiver, no contact with any casinos, and no use or possession of over-the-counter eye drops. I don't give a shit. How red your eyes are, absolutely not. You're not allowed to have Vizine. That is contraband, ma'am. I'll bet you. A judge said that. That's incredible.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
median household income is high in this area how so it is median household income rest of the country it's about sixty nine thousand dollars here it is one hundred ten thousand two hundred sixty nine dollars thriving doing great out here in the burbs of milwaukee that's not bad at all and the cost of living 100 is regular here it's 107 so it's not that out of whack yeah the highest thing is the home costs
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Banned from clear eyes completely. Your eyes shan't be clear, young lady. Yeah, yeah. That is some shit. So her trial comes up. And by the way, the craziest part of this hasn't even happened yet.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
But the craziest shit she's ever done hasn't even happened yet. That is coming up after the trial. Unbelievable.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Amazing. It's the fucking most guilty thing anybody's ever done. OK, so in the openings of the trial here, the prosecutor says that during the second day of interviews with detectives, the jury, you will hear Jesse tell them that they that Lynn did drink Visine. But Jesse says that she never gave Lynn any Visine.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And but Jesse does go into detail about how Lynn wanted to kill herself and that Lynn was using the eye drops to help her die by suicide. Um, she also, Jesse tells detectives that Lynn would get a buzz off drinking Visine. Okay. Um, impossible. The DA also says there's certainly a factual bare bones timeline of theft, murder, and more theft.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They said, but there's, uh, there's this almost overlaid timeline of all the defendants lies and deceit. Yeah. She's all fucking liar to everybody.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Sounds cold as fuck, doesn't it? It does. Oh, man. Especially such a nice lady, too. Lynn's a real nice lady. Man. So the defense comes up now. Now, how do you defend this? Well, she is going to have a Sarah Boone level of amount of attorneys to try to figure it out. Oh, really? By the end of this, she'll have gone through eight attorneys that withdrew from her case.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Not that she fired, that they said, fuck this lady, I'm not working with her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I can't say that in front of people. No. They have cameras. This shit is on the internet now. It's law and crime or whatever. They did the whole trials on fucking YouTube right now.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
All the other lawyers are going to make fun of me. Do you understand? Later on at the lawyer meeting, they're all going to pick on me, and I can't take it. It's too much already.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No, I'm going to get wedgies because of this. They're going to totally pick on me. Noogies and wedgies, and I won't have it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
God damn it. I can't do that in front of people. So the defense says, quote, if Lynn Hernan was there today, she would say, are you crazy prosecution? That's my daughter you have sitting in that desk over there. That's my daughter. She said she had a boatload of prescription medication in her system.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And they're saying Visine killed her, not the other pills she had in her system, along with alcohol. OK. And he says along, this guy also says that Lynn knew that Jesse was spending her money and that Lynn was depressed and coping with alcohol and prescription medication. And he said that Lynn wanted to die and didn't like life. He says, but she introduced people to Jesse. This is my daughter.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And that's who Jesse is to Lynn, her daughter. Yeah. Jennifer, meaning her mom. That's Jesse's mom. Jennifer's like her best, best friend. And Jesse became her best, best friend. Oh, boy. He then says Jesse was the only person she trusted. Then the defense tells the jury that Lynn's health further deteriorated. She became despondent.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she said, and you saw the way she was done up with her hair and nails and jewelry. She didn't look like that anymore. She didn't want any more visitors because she didn't look in her mind the same. They said she was tired of being sick and she decided to take her own life. They said what?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This is a place where they're building houses as fast as people are moving into them.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
When police arrived on the scene, they found a lot of empty prescription bottles and they can't see that as a suicide. And then points to Jesse and says, she's innocent. You find her not guilty. They said, look at all the powder she had spilled on herself. She said, Jesse told you it was common for Lynn to crush up medications because of her problem swallowing pills.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's got a narrow throat. So she just snorts it all because that's normal.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Something. But none of the crushed up shit was in her system. So that's a hard argument to make. So the medical evidence, they said the belief that the prosecution says this, the belief that Lynn Hernan was given tydrahydrazoline by another shows that she was given this unsuspectingly. She didn't know that she was ingesting this substance when she did it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the defense said to the medical examiner, these are all the drugs that were found in her system, right? And they had a list. And the medical examiner says, correct. And they were all in her blood, which means they'd already been ingested and made it into the bloodstream. The doctor says, true. They said, your conclusion was that she died from tetrahydrozoline, right? And she said, yes.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So there's hardly anything for sale, and what is for sale is new construction for the most part because people are coming, and it was a very small town before this, so we'll talk about that. Median home cost is $405,500. Fucking G. Which seems excessive for suburban Milwaukee. I guess the lake is, I don't know, an attraction, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the defense asked how the medical examiner could be so certain that she didn't ingest the eye drops on her own. And they said, you don't know as you sit here today whether she voluntarily ingested that. And the doctor says, it was my opinion she didn't, but knowledge of her action, no. Obviously, I wasn't there. But then on redirect, they asked about the powder found on and near her body.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And they said that wasn't in her system, right?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They said no. And the prosecution says, what do you think happened? And the doctor said, I think that they may have been deposited there. Someone put them there, basically. Hey, I'm no. Yeah. Sprinkle some crack on it. Now it's drug crime. Yeah. Yeah. From fucking killing him softly. So Jim Kelleher is also going to testify. The friend, Lynn's friend.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They ask him, did you ever hear Lynn say anything to you about killing herself or thinking about killing herself? Jim said, no, I did not. She never, never gave me the indication of being suicidal. Never. Never.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's trying, damn it. Yeah, she was talking about hanging out and let's get together. The defense presents their case. Jesse's mother's friend testifies. Sure. Gary Verdon, who's a friend of the mom there, testified that he'd been in Lynn's condo twice, the second time about a year before her death. But he said his memory was very clear.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
He said, quote, I always saw her sitting in this chair, a chair. Did you have to search for the word chair?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. I get it. There's words, plenty of words where I'm struggling because I'm trying to think of the next thing and the last thing and I'm following it, you know, in all my notes.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I don't know what he was doing, but chair.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Fuck it. Chair. I gave up. Wow. With a table next to her. She had a white Slurpee cup, a straw coming out of it. She had a bottle of vodka next to it. She had an ashtray, her cigarettes, and a bottle of Visine. Ooh, that's a fun night she's got in front of her. She's a heavy smoker, too, by the way, Lynn, as a as a 70s and 80s hairdresser kind of has to be by law.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I feel like they said, are you sure it's vising? And this guy said, yes, absolutely.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
He said on another occasion he heard Lynn on speakerphone when he visited Jesse's mother, Jennifer Flower. This Gary said Lynn just started rambling off and she was either sleepy or tired or whatever, but she was rattling off about the will. Then she started talking about how she wanted to kill herself. OK, that's normal conversation people have on speakerphone. My will, my will, my will.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
By the way, this is important because I'm going to kill myself. Did I mention that?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, my God. Then the defense called a nurse practitioner who began treating Lynn for back pain in 2017. Despite prescribing several pain medications for her, she said Lynn did not improve. And so they asked her in 2018, January, she continues to complain about back pain. And the nurse says yes. And they said the pain being worsening. And she says yes. Then they bring in the forensic pathologist.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And this person says, this doctor says, I would say her past medical history was very significant. She had a long list of medical conditions and also had quite a few psychiatric disorders, depression, anxiety, agoraphobia, which is fear of public places, chronic insomnia. Those were the ones that were listed in her medical records.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Either way, if we've convinced you to move from wherever you are to suburban Milwaukee, we have for you the Pewaukee, Wisconsin Real Estate Report. The average two bedroom rental here goes for about thirteen hundred twenty dollars, which is above the national average, but not that far above the national average. And there are apartment complexes here.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Wow. She's been going to doctors for a long time and had these problems here, but she's always tried to get help for it, too. Yeah. She realizes she has problems and tries to fix them, or at least mitigate them a bit. So this doctor also said she agreed with the state's conclusion that Lynn's medical problems contributed to her death.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She did not agree with the state's finding that Lynn died from tetrahydrozoline poisoning.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. We have a really wild one today. A murderer who just... you don't know what is going on in this person's head and it is insane. So we will get to all that and more. First of all, head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. If you want them, get them right now.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The prosecutor says the forensic pathologist that the defense brought up said that Lynn's cause of death was undetermined, but she believed it was a mixed drug toxicity. And so that means she thought it was a combination of all the drugs found in the system there. So they say, would you say there's strong evidence here that Lynn Hernan's death was a suicide?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the defense pathologist says, uh, I would say that's a good way to start. Uh, I would say there's strong evidence that it certainly could have been a suicide. Yes. So that's the defense is saying, see, suicide. And the prosecution's going, obviously fucking not. Jesus Christ. Yeah. This woman's just super lucky.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Happens to get a benefactor who can't wait to kill herself and give you all of her money. That's ridiculous. So will Jesse testify?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's the big question. And Jesse says, quote, it was very hard for me to decide, but ultimately I will not be testifying, she tells the judge. So prosecution, here's the closings. Prosecution, DA, says that there's one motive here, money. That's it. Jesse's clear as intent. Her intent is clear. It was to kill. And the motive is her own personal benefit.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This is someone who has profited over one hundred and forty four thousand dollars before the death and over eighty thousand dollars after the death.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So pretty cut and dried here. So the defense, though, says, no, no, no. It's obvious she took her own life. That's what's obvious here. We're looking for obvious shit. The defense says the state has not proven a first degree intentional homicide. Jesse knew that Lynn would take Vizine and drink it, but she doesn't know how she decided how she died that day.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Looked like a suicide with pills from a person that was unhappy. Okay. As for the allegations of theft, the defense says she didn't steal that money. She was given that money. Yeah, it was a gift. She said she was giving away her money because she knew she was going to kill herself. That's like when people give away their possessions. It happens.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said Lynn gave Jesse money all the time because she wanted to. She wanted Jesse to have it. She knows she's going out, and Lynn made a decision. She made a decision that she was going to exit and... She did that on October 3rd, once Jesse had left the home.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
In the prosecutor rebuttal, they say, to believe this is a suicide, you would have to believe that the most cosmic intervention in the entire world, and it happened at the exact point in time when Jesse maximized the amount of money that she made on this whole ordeal. She saw she had no more money left in her money market.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Eventually, she's going to see that and probably blame her, and then she was still on... like probation from her last prison stint for fraud get caught for fraud and she's gonna go back for she's going away for 10 years she just did six years for this she's going back for 10 now easy so that's not great at all so the verdict comes in 10 and a half hours of deliberation
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's what I mean. It's not long in general, but for this case, it seems like a while.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Are we just going to vote guilty now or after we eat lunch? When are we doing this? Because obviously this is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Who wants some V&Vs? On me, baby. At the corner bar. So they find her guilty of first-degree murder. She, of course, broke down crying as she does multiple times in court. She's also convicted on two counts of felony theft as well. Oh. Uh, Anthony, the quasi nephew said, I was just overcome with emotion. It makes you reflect on the last five years with the lies and deceit.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Now, now's when it gets weird. Okay. If you haven't, you may think it's weird so far, but you ain't seen shit yet. All right. From, from this point, she's now awaiting sentencing and that's takes a while, right? There's a couple of months until sentencing. They have to get their, Both sides have to prepare their case for sentencing and all the pre-sentencing reports and all that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. Yeah. That one person lived in an apartment complex for two years in the review. Here's I found it. There's like 10 things for sale in the entire town, by the way. I found a point four acre lot. Nothing special. Just a cleared lot in what looks like it's going to be a future neighborhood here. Nothing special. $183,990.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So during this time, an envelope containing 37 pages of handwritten letters and documents was received by a friend of Jesse's who turned it over to the sheriff's department. Oh. Okay. This is fucking crazy. Now, Jesse claims this is not, she did not write these letters. Okay. The problem is the letters are written on the back of her own court notes from court.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No one has possession of these court notes except for her. They're the notes she writes to her lawyers and stuff like that. And her lawyers, you know, write a little something back on it. You see people scribbling in court all the time. That's what they're doing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She, because that's the only paper she had in the holding cell in the jail, she would take those back and then flip them over and write this letter on it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No. And she claims this isn't her, even though it's her shit. So it's wild. The prosecutor said the letter requests a friend of Jesse to fake evidence, create a voice recording pretending to be Lynn Hernan to send all of this to the judge in the case, to the local media, even to the governor to try to prove Jesse's innocence. This letter is fucking insane. I have the whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
We're going to read. Oh, boy. So the prosecutor said the documents were written by Jesse on the back of her trial notes, giving directions to her friend on how to impersonate Hernan and fabricate materials and submit them to the court. This is crazy. She said that when you make the audio tape, make sure to know that Lynn has an older, raspy female voice.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's exactly what she says. She says to her. She's a heavy smoker. Forever make it sound like it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Make it sound like Selma. Yeah, Patty or Selma. She says she directed her friend to say exactly what to say on the tape. Quote, I can't go on anymore. I cannot go on anymore, which makes it more dramatic. I chose to drink Visine and end my life. Yeah. OK, this is fucking amazing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Now, the letter here, they give it to the judge and it says enclosed or is a packet of 37 pages that are dated November 22nd and were received by the Waukesha County Sheriff's Department on November 26th, 2000, 2023. The packet of papers is comprised of Jesse's initial letter to the recipient, followed by many pages of instructions written.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
whereby she asks and instructs the recipient on how to create fraudulent documents along with a fraudulent cassette recording. The recipient received this packet of papers at her home and was disturbed by what was being asked of her, and ultimately the recipient decided to turn them over to law enforcement.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The state wishes to point out the original paperwork was double-sided, which is important to note as Your Honor reads through the papers, because her substantive instructions were written on the back of her own trial note pages from her recent trial.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
For example, pages 17 and 18 of this packet are the same, but for the exception of the post-it note that she utilized as a means of showing the recipient where the recipient should place a fraudulent copy of a notary stamp on that document. She's even teaching her how to fraudulently notarize things.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Page 19 is then a reverse side of that same sheet of paper and contains her notes taken during the trial. The same is true of pages 20 and 21 being the same, but for the instructions on where to place the notary stamp. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They said this is important because she's now written new fraudulent letters purporting to be from Lynn Hernid dated back in 2016 and 17 on the back of her paperwork from trial, which obviously occurred in 2023. Okay. Here's the letter here, by the way, it's written in absolute.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Girl cursive. Yeah, there is. This is every chick you sat next to in sixth grade did this. And then their other eye dot the eye with a circle. But she doesn't do that. She falls short of that. OK, now, if I struggle for a minute, it's going to be to read her cursive on this paper, but I'll go try to go through this pretty smoothly. Dear Jessica, this poor Jessica. Oh, boy.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Patch of grass with nothing, I mean nothing on it. It's just grass. Here's a three-bedroom, three-bath, T-bowl for all your b-holes, I guess. 1,886 square foot condo. This is a condo. It is a big house with doors on opposite sides that you split the house with somebody else. This place is full of carpeting. I mean, it hasn't been redone in a long time. They love warmth.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I wanted to thank you for being a friend. Travel down the road and back again. Your heart is true. You're a pal and a confidant. And if you threw a party, invited everyone you knew, you would see the biggest gift would be from me.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And the card attached would say, thank you for being a friend. That's literally her first line is, thank you for being a friend. That's so funny. It's hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Just literally thank you for being a friend through this crap. I mean that. This is crap now. Some days I feel so alone and now more so. Yeah, I feel very selfish lately, and I hope I told you I am sorry for your loss of your brother. I haven't asked either how you're doing or your kiddo. I hope all is well. Okay, that's her. Look, I'm not a bad person.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Now, here's some shit that is highly illegal and will get you put in prison. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
help a murderer fucking as long as you're well only if you're up things i need you to do if you're not feeling great i just i'd suggest a v and v you'll sleep well tonight now considering you have a child now let me put you in uh maybe make that child grow up without a mom horrifying legal danger let's do that let's put you in awful legal peril now how's that set
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
At least it won't make your brother sad anymore. Since we know he's dead. Wow. I appreciate you coming for court and both you and your friends. Please tell them too. I don't know, Jess. This is just insane to me. I sit here day in and day out replaying and replaying everything. I cannot spend the rest of my life locked away for something I didn't do. Then she says, this isn't right.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I wish I had the jury's names. I so want to reach out. I'm losing my mind about this. Yeah, that's why they don't give you their names so you can't harass.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The jurors who convicted you of murder. Like, that's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You know, their addresses and maybe just what their weaknesses are. You know, their kids' school schedules and, you know, activity schedules possibly. And access to their drinks. Pictures of their spouses and access... Possibly some ball-making materials. Oh, shit. Then she goes on to say, if I'm honest, this is such a butter.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You have no idea that you're going to be asked to do such horrible shit from the first part of this. If I'm honest, I don't know how much more I can take. I've wasted four and a half years for this to be made right, or I've waited four and a half years for this to be made right, and it got ten times worse, not better. I don't want to be here anymore.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
i don't want to be convicted of murder anymore it was fun for a while but first you know the processing wasn't so bad the fingerprinting then they i don't see anybody anymore they're not and they're not letting me out either it's weird like i asked to go to the store no one's doing i said When the guards leave, I said, hey, can you pick me up something, bring it back? No, they don't do it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's fucked up, man. That is amazing. I don't want to be here anymore. I'm so strong in my faith, but right now I can't even open my Bible. I don't understand. I can't go a day without breaking down at my new reality, staring at these walls. I keep thinking of all the things I want to even do or have.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The hardest one is not being able to see my grandparents before they pass and not being able to have kids. Well, you had all the opportunity to have kids, and if your grandparents want to visit you, they're welcome to.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They're fine. They probably won't because you're an asshole and they're embarrassed by you.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And you're in a lot of trouble. I'm glad. You're a blight on the family. You're really an embarrassment. You're all that anyone talks about when we go places. It's not great. I'm glad I don't with all of this, but by far, that's one I get super emotional about. It's what I always wanted. Then there's my mom I worry about. She's got nobody left.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Nobody does wall-to-wall carpets really anymore.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She would have taken her life long ago, but I needed her. I'm the only thing keeping my mom alive. She would have taken her life long ago. Why? Why is everyone so suicidal up here? What's happening? In Peewalkie. You guys are tripping, man. Holy shit. The Brewers will win eventually. It's fine. Just calm the fuck down. Jesus Christ. I needed her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
When you see that, you go, oh, this has been in a while probably.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's struggling with all of this and blaming herself because she couldn't deal with Lynn anymore. Okay. And she went and dealt with her. So I stepped up to help Lynn Daly when she stopped and because she couldn't testify. We had a pact. If things went wrong like this, we were both checking out. Her and her mom, if we were convicted of murder, we're both, what the fuck are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I'm trying to fight and hang on, but it's so hard. I feel like I'm fighting a lost cause. This county is so crooked, it's not even funny. The county? The county. County's crooked. You walk a shot. You're fucked up. You should see just what I've uncovered in discovery since the trial ended that they lied about on the stand. It's so wrong.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So I talked with one of my attorneys about stuff in person and I got a biggie for you. I got a biggie for you to ask of you. Took her two pages to ask this favor. First of all, this is big that, you know, something bad's coming up. I got a big favor to ask. Okay, ask away. First of all, this is big. Oh, boy. Never mind. I'm very well aware of how big this is. This is big.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I trust you, and whether you help or not, this is something I need you to take to your grave. Even this envelope didn't go through the jail mail. My attorney took it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This is one of my attorney's ideas, and clearly they aren't going to tell anyone. I would never tell a soul. You can tell someone if it's to ask for help. But if you trust them and if you can't and if you aren't comfortable, I'm going to give you another person's address and send it to them with directions and pleas. So if you won't do it, give it to this person and see if they'll do it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No, now it's like, oh, I got to rip that carpeting up because I don't want to live on other people's disgusting, funky shit. No, rip that up. At least you can, you know, scour a carpet, I guess, or a floor. This house is $390,000.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Either way, do not talk about it on the phone or visit. And that's underlines do not talk and phone and visit are underlined. You can say if you got your letter, if you can do it, just say, yes, I want you to send me a something form when you get to somewhere.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And if not, then say you need that address for my friend and I'll figure out who plan B is and give you a name and address to forward it to. I know that all sounds cryptic because it is. Yeah. I know this sounds highly illegal and like I'm real secretive because it's super illegal and I'm very secretive.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's a lot. Then she says LOL, which is hilarious that she put LOL in here because it is LOL. No LOLs in your jail letters to your friends to try to get them to help you beat a murder charge. No LOLs. You should have said that in the first line. That's first.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
first nor did i assist nor did i even steal a dime from her ever um my something charges are that old dumb or my old charges are that old dumb and young okay love you jesse and then i thank you for everything under that and now the directions start it says i'll show you directions on top oh god this is what i need uh-huh Okay. Do you remember hearing about the, what is this?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, the picnic or the park, Whitehall Park, where I buried things? Okay. That was 100% true. The difference is six months later or so, I regularly went on a walk there daily. That area was prone to flooding and the bag was sticking out one day, so I dig it out and ended up throwing it away. Okay. Only one person know that, my attorney.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Everyone else believes it's in the park or never was in the park. So it's either still there or never was there. It was part of the gun, Visine bottles Lynn had dated from her mom's death. I never told anyone that. She dated her Visine bottles. I don't know why you would do that.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Notarized papers of hers and a cassette tape. Old school voice reading of Lynn.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
All something stuff that I kept hidden. I can't read that. All something stuff that I kept hidden and quiet. But she spells it quite. She kept it hidden and quite.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
golly it's not even a house you're gonna have your own property and then here's here's a new house this is brand new construction there's no lawn in or anything yet it's all dirt uh five bedrooms six baths so d-ball for all your b-holes surplus 4,489 square feet on 0.63 acres okay two-story So, nice house. It's clean, obviously. It's brand new. It's clean. It looks good. It's fine.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They do it all the time. They can't get quiet right. And it's not a spell check. It's a curse of handwriting. I don't know if I ever told you about Lynn's mom or if you heard when Dana or Donna tried to bring it up in court and the judge shot down. The state requested her mom's something, records, records, there we go, but never turned them over. While I was in prison in 2013, Lynn's mom died.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She gave her Visine and her tea when she cut her out of her will. When she found out her mom, she was stealing her money. Her mom died. She got dizzy and fell downstairs. No autopsy was done. So she's saying Lynn killed her mom with Visine is what she's saying.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Lynn's a murderer. And then she murked herself, too. With Visie. That's her thing here, yeah. But she was always afraid. I didn't know this until after Lynn's passing. That's why she gave money away. It haunted her. That's her excuse. It haunted her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yes, that makes her feel better about the whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And it was, by the way, the whole point of killing her mom was to get this money.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Time to go to the big Visine bottle in the sky. Let's do this.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Holy shit. Um, and haunted her also how and why she started drinking it first was to die, but it didn't happen. She'd been drinking it for months. I didn't know till the end in parentheses, but numbed her pain and helped her sleep. That's not what Visine does. Um, she was an insurance or no, an insomniac and Xanax wasn't helping her to sleep anymore. Wow. Okay. Sorry. It's complicated. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And I'm to blame because I didn't save the stuff, but at the time, what did I need it for? And I didn't want anyone knowing what I found out. So here's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. Get to that. Recreate that stuff. She's trying to recreate evidence that will clear, quote, recreate it. In other words, make up this evidence and make it happen. That is crazy. I did what I could.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I wrote up the letters, Will, et cetera, and I signed all names, dates, et cetera. I need someone to look online for a notary stamp. not to buy. There are places that will show you a finished product. You input name on what it should say and you can copy and paste. You may need to cook a few, but they have when you can new sample.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Then you take the pages I wrote, copy them a few times, make them a little lighter, then line up for notary and print more notary around angle, turn so forth so it's not lined up perfectly. Make it look good like someone casually did it. Yes, I used to make documents for people. Sounds crazy, but true. I was good at it. Yeah, that's why you're in prison the first time.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You got caught a bunch of times. Those bank ones were something doing. I didn't make those mistakes. OK, anyway, sorry. Then when done, copy the whole page again. So it's a full copy, not original. So nobody knows the notary seal wasn't a real stamp because it's got crimping on it. All I need is two different names for notary one on page one and the other on three and one on three pages.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
These are real people who worked at her bank years ago who actually notarized papers on these dates. And I have those other papers here with the signatures dates and all that I did. So take these legitimate signatures and notary things and put them on an illegitimate document. I just need the notary and copies, please. Then it says explained with the pages.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Now there's one more part I'm trying to get with that. I can't do anything on the Visine bottles because those bottles are way too old and none in stores would match that. And the gun piece, they know she had bought it, so it doesn't matter. It's the cassette tape. I need to see if someone would make a voice tape. I know this is crazy. This whole letter is called I know this is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It's not a mansion. I mean, it's a big, giant house, but it doesn't... Big house, yeah. It's not like you look at it and go, oh, man, you are killing it. The person who's living there is really doing great. It's just like a nice, big house. $1,314,900 for that. They are out... $1.3 million. Out of their fucking minds. I'm going to say that right now. To live 20 minutes outside of Milwaukee...
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I know this is crazy, but I got to try. It's it's something it's something I don't know what that is. It caused my life. I could I if I could, I would. They would suspect my mom. That's why I can't have her. Nobody has her on voice recording. She has an older, raspy smoker's cough and was a sick female voice. Always coughing and smoking.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
How are your impressions of old smoking lit? Can you cough a little bit? Put that in there every once in a while.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And then just every once in a while go, just do that. Right into the mic if you can do that. Where am I, Virginia Slim? Oh, that is satisfying smoke right there. Oh, boy, that really satisfies. Let me tell you something.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, boy, Marlboro country is somewhere I never want to leave.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This is crazy. She says, I feel like there's programs online to change voices. There's so much technology these days. Is that a setting? Old Smokey Broad, is that a setting you can find somewhere?
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This is amazing. She was sick and did it two days before her death. Nobody's going to know if it's her or not. It's been five years since she's been recorded, and I have the wording for that recording. Honestly, you could even just have a movie or music on in the background to help distract. You know, she's telling you how to be a fucking... A scammer. A full of shit scammer.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Because that'll distract from the exact... From that it's not exactly her voice. She said she always had one on and loud. I would be cautious that the music... I would be cautious that it's music... And then in parentheses, she loved Gaga... Or a movie from before her death, if you do that, so it doesn't raise a red flag. Yeah, don't put a movie that just came out.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, my God. Nothing from past 2016, though. That'll be a real red flag. super big red flag crashes or shanghai some shit that's yeah evergreen go evergreen put a seinfeld rerun on in the background or something hilarious that she she's like just listen it can't be too new Then she gives examples. I love this. She is helpful if you're going to do this.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's bad. Yeah. Keep that off. No, like, you know, the football game from Monday night. None of that shit.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah, that's going to be bad. She says, put on like pretty woman, Mrs. Doubtfire, Wizard of Oz. That would be ideal. Her favorite.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Because that's always on. Then she says, now what do you think? Question mark. Hold on. Think about it, please. Then she puts over.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No, she has an arrow, actually, that says turn over.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
things you'll need she's got a supplies list computer paper envelope stamps address labels cassette old school cheap ones able to record voice gloves underlined and then it says must and it says and then a star if you help you know you don't need gloves if you're not going to help then don't buy those if you're not here Make sure you wear gloves because you are not getting in trouble.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
To live in a town with the word pee in it. I don't think so. So things to do. Oh, people from here, by the way. J.J. Watt is from here. This is his hometown. And TJ then, right? Maybe, unless they sent him away when he was younger. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You're helping me. When it's done, we'll see what happens. What? I don't want you to end up in here next to me, she just said. Make sure you wear – don't be as bad at crime as I am, please, if you're going to do it.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You know, I wasn't – I was just – They told me to hold this gun and point it at that person. I was like, oh, I'll hold it while you're shoveling that money into a sack with a fucking dollar sign on it. No problem.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Whoa. That is crazy. Yeah. When it's done, which I need ASAP before December 7th, sentencing, that's the sentencing, the sooner the better. If there is an easy way and if possible, I'd like copies of the tape. But if it's too much on hand, one is just fine. Anything you buy, do it at a store not in Waukesha and with cash at like Walmart. Self-checkout. That's me being extra cautious. Careful.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Showing your face. Not to mention, I'm just teaching you that I really thought about how to do criminal shit. Yeah. The Finnish goal is to get Finnish letters and tape mailed to Judge Darrow if there's more to others, too. If not, just a basic letter to others, and then... 11 people total with judge, she puts. And that is attorney Donna Kutchler, attorney Pablo Galvez. Those are her attorneys.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Waukesha DA's office, TMJ News 4, the sorest jaw in all of Wisconsin. CBS News 58, ABC News 12, Wisconsin Attorney General Josh something, I can't see, Court TV, Fox 6 News, Tony Evers, I think, the governor. Then it says for everyone and judge to whom it may concern. And then she wrote sample on it. Like, obviously, don't use this. Make your own. But something like that. Don't say who you are.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Just a concerned citizen. R.E. Jesse Kazurski Kazurski Vizine trial in parentheses. That's what you do. And this is what you say in this letter, by the way. I wrote it out for you.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
jesus this is amazing i have watched this trial from the beginning and i've never met this girl and i'll just so you know i don't know her jesus christ this is like uh oh man this is somebody like writing a review for their own restaurant i've been in here once a charming little place never even noticed it before i've heard the manager slash owner is a great guy Terry's wonderful.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
The food just looks clean. You know, all the servers, no open sores. It's tremendous.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Nope. I never met this girl, Jessie Krasinski. But what I can tell you is this story is crazy. That we know, lady. Anybody who has a brain can tell you this girl didn't do it. And what those jurors didn't hear or what the judge didn't allow makes no sense. You're talking about this girl's whole life. Because Lynn took her own.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
By the way, there's a lot of like spelling errors and grammar errors, like no apostrophe where it belongs. And in her other letters that are not like that. And we'll talk about that, too, at the end of this. What the judge didn't allow this girl's whole life because Lynn took her old life, her own life. How is that murder? This was a total setup if I ever saw one by Waukesha County.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Pewaukee, yeah. They made a big deal during one of the Super Bowls he was in there in Texas. They went to his hometown of Pewaukee. I watched a video. Oh, yeah, yeah. Talk about J.J. Watt.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Well, well, I spent three days in the park, Whitehall Park. Why? The detectives never took her to the park. They yelled at her repeatedly about not understanding why she wouldn't tell them if she had evidence. So she does, and they don't even take her with them. Again, are you serious? I can't even fathom how a jury conducted or convicted her. On what? Lies, really? That doesn't make sense.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That doesn't make you a murderer. Point being, after digging around for three days, I found her evidence and sent the tape cassette plus papers to the judge in this case, Darrow. The bottles of Visine and a piece of gum have no something. So I can't read what that is. No barring, no baning, no something. So I didn't include, but this girl is to be sentenced to life for a crime that never happened.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
that she didn't do. I enclosed a copy of letters for you, but what I want to know is what are you going to do about this? Then, under that, Jesse writes, with an asterisk next to it, burn, destroy all papers when done. Do not talk about on phone or visit. Make only one tape for Darrow, the judge, if you can copy the other pages for everyone and her too.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Send letters and letter too, and then the full list again of these people. Wear gloves for all! Exclamation point. This is a crime tutorial. Yeah, make sure you're just helping. She said, this is my fight and chance to stir the pot. Will you help me? I will never say a word, and I will give you a chunk of my money if when I get out, because it's a big favor, and if not, I understand, really. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Shit. So things to do here. The Lake Country Fall Fest.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she says, this is what you want to say on the tape recording. Here we go. This is in your raspiest old smoker voice. Jesse, I am sorry to leave you like this, and I am assuming you'll be the one to find me after all you've done for me all the times you saved my life. I know if it wasn't for you, I would have been dead months ago, and you have been my rock. You're stronger than anyone I know.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's about to say, you're also very pretty. Your breasts are supple and perky. You're the smartest person I've ever met.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
None of that shit at all. My God, I wish I had an ass like yours. She said, I know if it wasn't for you, I would have been dead months ago. You've been my rock. You're stronger than anyone I know, and now I need you to take care of your mom, for I know your dad all you could keep me alive as long as you could. I no longer recognize myself.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Lake Country Fall Fest, or Harvest Fest, depending on which thing you see it in, but it's the same thing, will be held on the grounds of the Clark House Museum. This year's family-friendly event, this is the most boring thing to do we've ever covered, will continue to emphasize the skills and crafts from years gone by. Old World Pewaukee.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I'm sick of being sick, complaining about being sick, and just sick of it all. I want to be free from the pain, and this is my time. I love you and your mom very much. Take care of each other. I'm following the yellow brick road to see my dad. See, put a Wizard of Oz reference in there. Jesse, stop listening to this tape and put it somewhere safe and hidden.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's talking to Jesse because she's in the room.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Then she says, and she clicked her heels together three times, and she says, Lynn Hernan, being of sound mind and body, want to state I'm recording this statement today on Sunday, October 1st, 2018. I've been sick long enough, seen doctors to know that I will never be the same, and I no longer want to live my life as it is. I've done things I cannot take back.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I took a life that I had no right to do. They have her confessing to murdering her mother in this. This is so fucked up. Framing a dead person for murder. Wow. Two murders, one of her own, too, of herself and her mom. I'm choosing on my own free will and on my own time frame to take my own life. I've tried more options than most from purchasing a gun, overuse of medications to poisons.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Our next batch here is in May. We have St. Louis at the pageant and we have Chicago at the Riviera. St. Louis is almost sold out. I mean, few tickets left to that and Chicago is getting close to, so get your tickets right now. San Diego, just about sold out. Madison, Grand Rapids,
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I assumed poisons would be the fastest and easiest. Little did I know it would be just as hard. Vizine is the one I stumbled across prior and have tried without success, but ended up using it for almost three months or whatever she should just put or whatever. Jesse says I did pretty much the way it makes me feel is something indescribable. My body is not. It sounds like you're on mushrooms.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
No, this is Vizine. If that were true, kids would be taking so much Visine as tea. They'd be sucking on it in bottles. The marijuana market would be bottomed out. Visine's so cheap. All the drugs. No more psychedelics. This would be amazing. My body is numb. I feel no pain from my constant pain, and it makes me tired where I kind of sleep. I haven't experienced in years.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I became quite fond of it, and it was a new medication to me. It's not a medication. I enjoy my medications, and now Visine is one of them. At first, I was drinking a bottle almost daily mixed with my water or vodka. Then I increased over time, was purchasing Visine on my own for a month until I could no longer drive or shop. I did stock up on it and had my caretaker, Jessie.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She did not know what I was doing until recently. Jessie is the one person who knows everything I have went through in and out except my mother's death. Seen all the good and bad. She's been there when I fell in the middle of the night. Shit on myself. Unbelievable, dude. This is ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh my God. Or puked and came to. Oh my God. Or puked and came to clean and came to clean it up. She has caught me in the act of trying to take my own life. She's seen me at my worst and there regardless. I owe her everything for all she's done. Her mother's my best friend and Jesse is my only family left and mean more to me than I know. I did the unthinkable to Jesse and it ruined her for months.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I lied to her and I made her lie to everyone in the process and it destroyed her. She knew I was suicidal, but I told her I was sick and dying from colon cancer. I didn't want to see people or talk to them, so I had Jesse lie to everyone and didn't Um, want anyone, everyone to know the truth was I wasn't sick with colon cancer or dying.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
We're going to celebrate it. Chip ice from the lake, I guess. This event is on the grounds of the Clark House Museum, features old-time crafts and hands-on activities, weaving, a blacksmith, carving, butter churning, corn shelling, and much more.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
One afternoon, Jesse came to check on me as her usual and caught me with, uh, unexpectedly while I had a gun to my head, she screamed at me crying that when I came clean with her about not having cancer and lying. I lied to her because she was concerned about me being suicidal and saying I was sick was easier to do. I'd never seen her so hurt, so I lied to everyone.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She knew I didn't know what to do now. She told me I was either going to get help and go to the hospital or she was calling the cops. I let her take me to Aurora Waukesha Hospital the next morning where they admitted me and I stayed for weeks. I wanted to get better for her, but the deep down decision was made long ago and I cannot go on anymore.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
My mom's death haunts me daily, you know, because I killed her and all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Took my remaining Vizine bottles and put them into my last water bottles. I have stashed Vizine for months and been emptying it over time into water bottles and now have three bottles full with only Vizine over 30 bottles. That takes 30 bottles of Vizine in case you're wondering.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And we'll start because I think it's a half bottle. ounce in there. Yeah, it's nothing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Because you use a drop, two drops at a time. And we'll start drinking those tomorrow along with my medications. I'm hoping by drinking an extreme amount, this will work as planned. I'm choosing this on my own terms and how I see fit. No one played any part in this decision or acted on it. I chose to drink Visine and end my life. Look into my mom's death to better understand.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I came into this world fighting like hell and lived a good life, and I'm going out of the world on my own terms and will see my dad again. I would like it known that Jesse and Jenny are in charge of my final wishes as they know where the paperwork is and what to do. I want to make sure it is known. And then she's got an arrow pointing up and an asterisk saying...
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Just end it like it was still recording or like she screwed up, like there's more, but that's all we need. So she said just like end it mid-sentence like something happened to the tape or she fell over.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
We got everything. So then she goes on to give instructions of then find a notary company that will allow sample or void with wording in the background. Look around. You will find once you do copy and paste and change paper and printer. And it's the thing of how to make it look – how to – Make a dot forge a fucking document.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she then goes on to have a whole letter here. And then she says there's a lot of misspellings and grammar errors. It's OK for it to be like that. She has a letter that she wrote to saying that here it is. OK. Lynn Hernan, loving daughter of Bob and Lorraine Hernan. Like she wrote her own fucking her own her own thing here. Her own obituary. Yeah. And she goes on to that.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Come by for some old-timey labor. Like, that's what this is. Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She wrote the obituary. She said, make that. Then she says, this is a Lynn writing this letter. I need to get something off my shoulders. The guilt has been weighing heavy on me. Um, on Saturday, November 30th, 2013, my mom, Lorraine Marie, whatever that, Oh, Herndon passed away just shy of her 86th birthday at St. Mary's hospital in Madison, Wisconsin.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Prior to her desk death, her health was declining with her memory. It was no secret. We had a very toxic relationship. We had been through thick and thin and everything in between. She forgot everything, but found out that I had been quote, helping myself to her money and, and changed her will to cut me out, and she was leaving everything to her best friend and neighbor, Bonnie.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I took matters into my own hands. Something her... Oh, spiking her tea with Visine bottles, as seen on TV. Uh-huh. I understand I had no right, and it haunts me, possibly more than I realize. As I'm starting to worry, I stopped after a night of partying too hard, and I told Kevin I've paid secretly for his silence ever since. I'm too afraid of spending my life in prison.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I will never forget how bad it was. I cannot, will not, no matter what, ever go back. I'm so, so sorry, Mom. Forgive me. Signed, Lynn Herndon."
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
uh now her and now look at how she writes this letter she changed oh she changed her handwriting fucking completely that's fucked up look at that dude she is just look at that that's another look there's another one of her handwriting that's psychotic dude it is shit is like completely different people yeah that's like the inside of a psychopath's mind that it's yeah the whole thing scribbles and side notes and corrections jesus fuck
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, my God. Then she said that she like her will here, kind of what she said before. Write this out. You know, I help care for my mom. That was my downfall. Blah, blah, blah. Then she goes into there are no issues later on. This is her final wishes. Jenny, I helped when Jesse was in prison and out of work. I owed her from years ago when she helped me. It was the least I could do.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
A really... Those butter churning women would be... Those butter churning women would give the most amazing hand jobs ever, because they would... First of all, iron grip. They're really good at it. Yeah. They're never going to be like, oh, my arm's getting tired. You've been churning all day. Your arm is like you have a Popeye forearm probably.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I helped her on and off, rent, bills. She was given a charge, etc. On 3-11-2-15, $5,000 direct from lockbox. So, Jesse, money and property while in prison because I know firsthand. And so much after I helped with deaths rebuild a lot. She also helped me and it went both ways. Um, and then says, uh, went both ways was a big one. Long story.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
There's so much I will be doing for both Jenny and Jesse before I check out. This is fucking amazing. Jim, that's her friend, was given and also loaned money when he lost his grandma's house to foreclosure. He had no job, no place to live, so I helped, but it was never enough. Linda drank more away. I loaned him money for bail, fines.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
He got me to that courthouse when I was afraid to step foot in the door, but he needed I helped. Motels, hotels, bills, down payment on his house, money toward a pool.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
useless shit he to date hasn't made a dent in paying back it pisses me off and he knows it and he's well over 25,000 that he got in total to date and then dates with the times and you know withdrawals and all that Keith I gave money when he needed but that was between us and was from cash so it didn't go through the bank Kevin, my mistake of all mistakes, who got most all to keep him quiet.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Quite, though. He took everything and even more. The best part was his death, but it was too late by then. He got my lockbox stash of cash, stash of cash at the house, withdrawals of thousands at a time... At a time from the bank, even more cash, all the checks written as to cover Jesse, long story in parentheses. All the checks written to cover were written to Jesse.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So Jesse didn't steal the money. It was this guy scamming. I gave it to him. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. He got jewelry. I gave all I had. I will never let anyone take years from me or send me back to that hellhole. So did what I had to. Over $200,000. The money is running dry as of today, Thursday, February 1st, 2018. My money is depleted. Under $25,000 in all accounts.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It will be gone like before the year is over. I will spend it and give it away, including my credit cards. I don't want a dime left for creditors, medical, state to take. I'm going to meet with me. I'm going to meet with Mr. Diaz at BMO Bank today on loan and to notarize documents. I will be making changes for final wishes due to my short planned future.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I'm changing my living will to say Jesse and Jenny and my last will and testament to Jenny from Anthony and Jesse. Jenny will give Jesse money. I don't want her probation agent to get it for restitution for her last crime.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I'll die with nothing, but I want to make sure that she doesn't get it taken. I want those two, Jenny and Jesse, to get everything because they're around the most and they need it versus Kareem and Anthony. They come from a different world. I will always love them and they are my family, but we aren't as close as we used to be. Things change. People change. That's life.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So she's singing multiple songs there. Thank you for being a friend. People change. She's got that shit. Tupac changes and Frank Sinatra. That's life. She got them all mixed up in there.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
It'll be an old gray lady with a bonnet on. That's why. There's also a genealogist, Marilyn Hagerstrand, will be there.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So she signed. Oh yeah. I am mad at you. Uh, she's got her last will and Testament here. She's got her, all of her fucking shit going on. Um, okay. Um, she, um, gives away her stuff here too. Um, gets two antique pictures in hallway for Diana Lang, mom's great grandma, Keith Lang gets Richland play center picture glass, uh,
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Jim, her friend Jim there in China Cabinet, crazy eight ball and ashtray, your grandma's champagne glass. Yeah, you owe me tons. Crazy eight ball.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, yeah. He gets what it is. Corinne Pazza, hat, pin, glass, shot glasses, and any clothes or shoes you want.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
They have shit on them, but that's okay. Anthony Potts, I originally said Jesse got the Wizard of Oz memorabilia, but it was you who got most of it. So anyway, you have first pick anything of my dad's you'd like. Steven Potts, Bubba, I thought maybe you'd like the old school pinball game. And it goes on from there. Jesse, Marilyn posters. You love them. Mom's charm bracelet. Right.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Jesse's mom gets 2016 Jeep. Not bad. Not bad. A purse, sequin reel, swan ashtrays, stork ashtrays, birdcage-looking lamp, gold cross with ashes. That way we'll always be swimming together. Okay. Now, this letter comes out. Her attorneys said, we're done. Fuck you. They said, we didn't take any letter anywhere, and you're sending this out. Basically, you're accusing us of a crime.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Helps you find your family tree. That's awful. Now, so you've been bored shitless over it. Bored to piss. You've watched an old lady churn butter, and you need to rock a little bit. What you do is you head on over to Summerfest. That's where it's at.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
We're not your attorney anymore. Fuck you. So they want to withdraw due to that. So prosecutors filed an objection to the motions to withdraw. But they said in evaluating both motions to withdraw, the state feels it's necessary to focus on the apparent driving force behind these motions to withdraw and says this was one of my attorney's ideas referenced in the letter.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
However, the state will argue that these materials were authored by Jesse for purposes of the attorneys to be able to continue representing her. It's important to note that Jesse and numerous recorded phone calls has continually denied writing those materials and denied having any idea what they are, who authored them. Jesse denies she wrote any of this.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Nobody else on earth knew any of those details and all those details. It's crazy. Nobody knows this person. It's fucking crazy. And also, we'll find out that she definitely did write it, too. The state also argues that taking both attorneys off the case would deprive her of legal representation at a key point in the case and would delay sentencing several months. Sure.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Now, Jesse says that the county is setting her up with that letter.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
And she wrote a 26-page letter to the judge explaining that, that we will not read because we've read enough. 26 pages. Okay, that was 37 pages she sent to her friend.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
You're not a lot to do in jail. So she expressed frustration at a motion hearing with her two attorneys for not being in contact with her in the week leading up to her sentencing. She made a list of 16 claims and stated she believes she was set up by the county with those letters and will be requesting a mistrial. Should the job. Yeah, she wrote in this.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I figure it's as good a time as any to put out all the issues. And there are a lot. She wrote the defense was not allowed to bring up Lynn's drinking into time in prison or her mom's death. She claimed that Lynn had written that she spiked her own mother's drink with eye drops and was haunted by what she did.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She also alleges that the defense was not allowed to question Detective Aaron Hope, who allegedly looked into Hernan's mother's death. According to Jesse, he never followed up on retrieving additional medical records. This was an extremely detrimental to my defense. And again, it was it isn't a small charge. We're talking about a charge that causes a life sentence.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
So she went on to claim all this shit. They claim that she claims that John Fry at a cousin of Lynn's had involvement with the Waukesha County detectives and the medical examiner's office and was told he owes them a favor for framing her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
According to this letter, Friot had looked her up in Wisconsin Circuit Court access and said it was odd that Lynn's heir had a record saying it doesn't pass the smell test. She wrote that Friot didn't know Lynn or have a relationship with her but knew she was a drunk. She also accused the judge herself of bias. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
That's bullshit. Summerfest is where... It is the they call it like the biggest gathering of bands and all this type of shit. Yeah. In the Midwest. In Wisconsin. Let's see. Let's go down their lineup of who they have. And I miss some of the people. But this is a highlight reel here. Let's see.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Saying the deputy jail administrator was lying and that she didn't have proper access to security for her documents and evidence. She said, quote, I was not happy with my trial or defense. She wasn't happy with losing is what she wasn't happy with.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Yeah. With all this happening, I strongly believe this county is setting me up. This seems like a big conspiracy. I no longer trust anyone.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
In Wisconsin. Same thing. Same place. Then the night before her sentencing, she calls the media up and does a thing. Oh, what? Night before her sentencing.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said, quote, nobody got to know the Lynn I knew, the Lynn that I was there for and worked for daily, the Lynn that was my family and that I loved and cared for. I could no longer wait. It's time to speak. I cannot be silent. Lim took her own life because she was troubled by what she did to her mom. Now she's going to publicly besmirch her.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She said that in her own letter that, again, we're in court. The letter that she wrote, by the way, that you wrote. Both of my attorneys are still listed on record, so legally I cannot speak to any other attorney, nor will they speak to me. I sit in limbo. I need to know my legal rights. Well, next day of sentencing, she's going to find out a lot.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Oh, yeah. Jim Kelleher says, quote, Jesse poisoned Lynn like she was a rodent. The devil awaits you. I hope you rot in hell. Lynn Hernan is an angel in heaven. May you rest in peace, Lynn. You're dearly missed and always will be. I'm so very sorry. They then show, by the way, the videotape recorded in jail days before the letter was turned over to the authorities.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This shows her putting a large bunch of papers into an envelope and leaving it on the bed of another inmate who later takes it somewhere else because that's a person that takes it places. So the judge says to her, this is your opportunity to address the court. Anything you'd like to say? She talks for two hours. Wow. Or an hour 45 or some crazy shit. I mean, she shit never shut the fuck up.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
She's I'm innocent. I was her best friend. We'll give a short snip here. Quote, let's be very clear here. There was no murder.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
I did not commit murder. I did not poison Lynn, give her pills or anything else. It is a lot to be accused and convicted of murder when I didn't do it. And she starts crying, of course. You're holding me responsible for what she did. Those are her decisions, her choices, her actions, and no one else's. Not even mine.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
Then she says, I will not stop fighting. And she says she does not have faith in the in the justice system, but does have a faith in God. She says, as God is my witness, this case is far from over. The judge goes, well, I'm about to bang the gavel.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
God's going to watch us end this fucking case. Yeah. The judge said, I believe Lynn's death was premeditated. The judge said tetrahydrozoline was not something we expected to find. And I do believe it was something you, Miss Kerski, whatever the fuck your name is, banked on no one testing for. I have to ask out loud. It's an interrhetorical question.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
hosier hoser okay okay that's the guy that used to be somebody we used to know oh okay uh gg perez tiny habits which sounds like i just do a little bit of heroin once in a while but not all the time just a drop
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
But were you poisoning Lynn Hernan all along following your release from prison? Uh-huh. Jesse says no. She shouts no. The judge says, I'm not asking for an answer.
Small Town Murder
#571 - Murder Martini - Pewaukee, Wisconsin
This is my time. That's hilarious. She's going to tell her kid that later on when she's sitting with a glass of wine. This is mom's time now. So do not interrupt me. You took away future memories, birthdays, luncheons, phone calls. I think you thought you were a very good thief and can get away with even more.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, wow. The judge says, you, sir, or ma'am, or grandma, you gambling granny may fuck off. Mandatory life sentence without parole.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That can help. Things to do here. There's only one thing to do that we could find here, and it's the old-fashioned 4th of July.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And the deal is she'll be able to serve her time in Minnesota because that's closer to her family. That's part of the deal she made. She doesn't have to do it in Florida. And so, yeah, the judge set aside the charge of felony theft and left open the question of restitution to be determined later because that's not really important right now, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The reaction here, Pam Hutchinson's best friend said she was thrilled that Lois was sentenced but would have preferred the death penalty. Sure. She said, oh my God, I'm so happy. This will give the family some type of closure. I'm just glad she didn't say she was crazy. I'm kind of disappointed, but you got to trust our system. I would like to have seen the death penalty.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Now, the lawyer, this is her lawyer, said, I know she killed two people and it sounds kind of weird, but I genuinely liked her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said that then they asked her if do you believe Lois, everything she said. And she shrugged her shoulders and said, that's her story. That's the story she's been telling all along. But then the reporter says she then flicked my elbow with the back of her hand as though we shared a confidence and added, why would she lie to me? Like, in other words, it's a murder fucking suspect.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
None of this newfangled 4th of July bullshit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So, you know, take that with what it is. The daughter tries to explain it. Brayden. She gave an interview to Inside Edition. And she said that it's he or he. I'm sorry. He said that it's like living in a bad movie to see his mother who always put herself second accused of killing two people. He said it's fucking crazy. He said she literally snapped. My whole family is in shock.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Nobody ever suspected anything like this. It has devastated our family. He said, talked about the all of this, you know, his mother being a suspect. He's like, it's like a bad movie. I feel like I'm going to wake up and it's going to go back to normal. But it's not. She was caring and never put a second. He then said gambling is a terrible thing where it can suck people in and destroy lives.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And they said as he said that as the cops spread out looking for her, he said, I just felt really bad for my mom. I felt like she was alone and desperate. Which happens when you're a double murderer. That's a thing that happens.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
What's more old? No matter what, the 4th of July is fireworks, which are very old-fashioned. They've been around since the 1800s. Sure.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So, yeah, she's also they're wondering about later on about the money and all that kind of thing. And the kids don't really care. They said they haven't spoken to their mother since their father's death. And he says this Braden said if he ever does get the chance to speak to his mother, he said, I just tell her that I love her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's all gone. She's fucking done. She has two states worth of life without parole. Tess Koster, the woman who almost got it too, said, I'm happy to be alive and I feel lucky. That's what she said. Holy shit. That's, you know, it's a lot here. The sheriff said that, you know, we took our time to build the strongest case against Lois for David's murder.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they were kind of happy Florida did their thing first. Because then they could build it more. Because there was no doubt what happened down there, all the surveillance footage and all that kind of shit. So they wanted to do that. Yeah, Tess said, we even invited them to come stay with us in Florida a couple years ago, but they didn't come. I'm so glad she was caught.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The owner of a motorcycle and all-terrain vehicle dealership that knows them in Blooming Prairie said, everyone is speculating. She snapped. What can you say? There's no explanation. Everybody says that because of that fucking show. It has to be, right? Has to be.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Possibly or if she could have taken her away but I think she I'm not sure what was going I don't know if she was going to try to sneak in sneak up to her and fucking maybe she was just doing recon looking by and it was like oh shit she's in the driveway and didn't expect it. So it's weird.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They likened here her personality split to a switch getting flicked saying that she went from being a really nice person to being a monster. That's what they said.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Now, speaking of that, HBO put out like a three-part documentary on this whole thing called I'm Not a Monster.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. And Lois talks for the she didn't talk to anybody since she got caught. She did no interviews. She turned down everything. She does an interview for this documentary. And this is what she says. They said, what the what the fuck, lady?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said it was just the perfect storm. That's what she said. It was just years of abuse and years of giving and giving and neglecting my own mental health and needs. And I don't know. I think the word is psychotic break. I just snapped.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
There's really nothing of this new school.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Wow. She said, I was very intimidated by him. I didn't think I had a way out or could defy him because he was a big man and he was very, very aggressive. Lots of verbal abuse, which I feel is worse than physical abuse. Well, you're an asshole. It's not worse.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You can blame him for all you want up there. What about her? That's what I'm saying. They're great. We'll let you have that.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Sure. You're innocent. All cleared up, ladies. That's fine. Okay. Now get to Florida and finish out your life without parole, stupid. You fucking moron. So anyway, about Pam, she said, never. I had never anticipated hurting that woman. Horse shit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know, but come on out to this. It's their 49th annual old-fashioned 4th of July, and there's a 5K race. Got to be in that. There's a street dance at J&H Liquors.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said she reached out to me to be my friend. I just wish I could have been in a better state of mind. I could have been her friend. Are you out of your fucking mind? What do you mean? She says she does not remember killing Pamela and doesn't know why she did it. Please.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Fucking liar. Yeah, I went right to the casino. She said, it's truly a puzzle because I don't have all the memories and all the answers for that. It was shown to me that I took her life. I still don't know the reason why it happened. I feel absolute remorse and shame. I feel terrible that I took her life and David's life.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Five grand and continued use of her car and credit cards. She then said she just got caught up in my breakdown and it was awful. Bullshit. Bullshit. Then she goes on to say, you know, my mother died in a mental institution. I didn't want to die in a mental institution. And that was my biggest fear if I had to go to trial because I felt mentally incompetent.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I was in the middle of a breakdown and I felt that's what would happen. I'd end up just like my mother. Don't worry. We have maximum security prison for you. That'll make you beg for a fucking mental institution, dummy. You fucking asshole. Dude, that's the biggest cop out ever. You're in for life without parole in two states. Just be fucking honest.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's one thing to say, okay, anything could have happened. We don't know what happens behind closed doors with people, so maybe that is what was going on, as nice as they both seem. But then when they get to an inexcusable one, she can't say Pam was abusing her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they get to that, and then it's just, well, I don't remember what happened then, so I must be fucking out of here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
fucking that's what i mean if you would have done that i i'm i am very we're both extremely anti-suicide therapy is a great thing if you're gonna start killing people yeah right find the nearest pedestrian bridge and hang yourself off it because take yourself out before anybody else 50 don't kill others clothing line that'll solve 50 make make sure yeah you want to get the drop so your next nap help me with my fucking fall help me with my fucking fall
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
God, I love Deadwood. So Lois is now in prison at the Minnesota Correctional Facility in Shakopee, Shakopee, 30 miles southwest. Shakopee? No, Shakopee of Minneapolis, 80 miles north of Blooming Prairie. So not even that far from home.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And there you go, everybody. That is Blooming Prairie, Minnesota, and a fucking twisted, wild, weird episode, I got to say.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She would have went on killing women that look like her and using their money until she got caught.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Period. That's it and that's all. It would have never stopped. So, there you go. If you like that story, I got an idea of what You should head over to whatever app you're on and give us five stars. It helps the show out immensely. It really does help drive us up the chart. So thank you for everyone that does that. Also, follow us on social media.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know if it's in the liquor store. Maybe. Like in the white wine aisle or if it's out front of the place. There's a volleyball tournament after that also. A tractor pull. This is a really, there's a lot going on here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. You certainly want to go to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. What's that? Tickets to live shows, everybody. Get your asses out here for live shows. We can't wait. February 7th, Pittsburgh. Oh, boy. Get in there, Pittsburgh. Get your tickets. I'm going to be very honest with you guys.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We're coming to Pittsburgh in February. You know how few people want to go to Pittsburgh in February? We go, we'll go to Pittsburgh in February. Now, right now, Pittsburgh, we're going to be very honest and let you in. You are the worst selling show we have in the country right now. There are shows 10 months from now that are almost sold out. And you guys are really doing this slow.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So I'm going to say this. If you'd ever like us to come back to Pittsburgh, because I'll tell you what, we don't go places where we don't sell out. So if you'd like us to come back, please buy tickets because we like Pittsburgh. We tell we fucking publicly say nice things about Pittsburgh. Help us out here for Christ's sake.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We love the fucking place, man.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Don't embarrass yourselves. Don't be the only city that fucks this up in the whole country, please. So there's that. And then Columbus is the next day. Get your tickets right now all the way through the end of the year. And they're going fast. The Seattle show at the end of the year in November is already almost sold out. Portland and even Philly and D.C.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
at the end of the year in December are closed.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Hang out with us. Do that. You also want Patreon. Patreon.com. P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com slash crimeinsports, which is the name of our other show, which you should be listening to. There's that. Get in there. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get a gigantic back catalog of bonus episodes you've never fucking heard before, but you're going to want to hear. Big time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So get in there and hear those new ones every other week, including this week when you get one Crime and Sports, one Small Town Murder. Crime and Sports, Travis Rudolph, a recent NFL player who just finished up a murder trial. We'll talk about that. And then Small Town Murder, West Memphis 3 Part 2. How the fuck did we end up here? Who else could have done it? We'll talk all about that stuff.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. But you also get a shout out at the end of the show. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful goddamn people in the world who would never steal our identities for the purposes of gambling. Hit me with them right now.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Beer gardens, bounce house, you know, like the pioneers did on the 4th of July. They had a bounce house with a video game trailer, you know, like the old-fashioned 4th of July. None of this new bullshit. Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Rocket Money found it and saved me lots of money since then because it's been a while. So they did a great job here. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending. and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's what they had back in the day, video game trailers when they wanted to celebrate the birth of our nation.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Giancarlo would probably be best, but that's fine. He just pronounced it wrong and then said, look at me get it right.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Giancarlo would probably be right.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Giancarlo's fine, but it's probably like a Giancarlo type of thing. This is what you'd call him in America. I'm getting real good at this shit. Jimmy's got his fingers out. Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, it was there. Cornhole tournament, which obviously dates way back to George Washington was the foremost cornholer in the entire country back in the day. We all know that. There's a chicken fry at BP Serviceman's Club.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Thank you so much, everybody. We appreciate everything you do for us. Fuck, you guys are awesome. Thank you. And keep hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Drop down menus will take you anywhere you want to go. That said, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Chicken fry over at the gas station.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We've told you exactly how bad of an idea that is.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
A kid's pedal tractor pull, obviously. A family youth dance with mobile DJ. You know, just like the old pioneers used to do on the 4th of July. Youth dance. An antique tractor show. A beer garden at City Park. No outside alcohol allowed. You have to buy it from them.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
First Lutheran church music in Gazebo and beer garden. First Lutheran church music and beer garden. DJ on the lot behind J&H Liquors. This poor bastard's in a parking lot behind a liquor store. Picture nobody there, just a guy standing in front of his turntables going, I set up for this.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's the only way he sells any liquor, bro.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They come in and get drunk. Food trucks, bounce house, kids races, pony rides. Got to have those. A dunk tank, again, just like the pioneers used to do.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Then there's a parade, and then live entertainment gets there. Oh, here we go. Right after the parade, Travis Thamert.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Thamert. Oh, Thamert. T-H-A-M-E-R-T. Travis Thamert.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Thamert? No. You've got to change that shit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Something other than this. Yeah. You know, it's something like that here. This will be at the State School Orphanage Museum. Where all the hot gigs take place. The state school orphanage museum. See how bad the orphans used to live.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Well, they have a, this is the fucked up part, too. They have tours of historic areas and shit like that. They basically play old-timey orphanage for the day. They have kids, look at this. What? Thank you, Sam. I have another.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash smalltownmurdertoday. That's rocketmoney.com slash smalltownmurdertoday.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And they have like scripts in their hands to say like their tragic life. And my mother died of cholera and my father died in an explosion at the molasses factory.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He couldn't feed me. So that's how that goes. There's a screening of a 1930 film and also a genealogy research assistant will be there to help you. See if you're from the orphanage. See if you ever started out there. Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here, is very low. Property crime is about one quarter of the national average. Great. So very low.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of all crime. is about one-third of the national average. Wow. So this place is pretty safe, I got to say.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Nobody's angry that someone else is much richer than them. I think that's what it is.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Let's talk about some murder here. Okay. Whoa, my goodness, do we have some crazy shit to get into. All right. All right. Have to give credit to The Atavist, Atavist Magazine, atavist.com, an article by John Rosengren, really good article, really comprehensive, put everything together and got a lot of information out of it that-
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It was available other places, and they kind of really made it an easier place to find some of the core of the story. So good job. Got to give credit where credit's due here. Let's talk about some people, shall we?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
All right. Dave Reese here. R-I-E-S-S. There's some places it's spelled R-E-I, but it's R-I-E is what I've seen in all the legal things here. Yeah, Dave Reese. He's born in Rochester, Minnesota, which is just off to the east of where we are here in Blooming Prairie. He's born on April 24th, 1963. Yeah. And kind of grew up in Rochester.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He went to Mayo High School, which I believe is all that Mayo shit is the Mayo Clinic and all that kind of shit. Oh, is that right? Yes. Yeah. You dug deep for that one.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But is that real? Yeah. The Mayo Clinic is from Minnesota.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know either. Did they name it Mayo? I don't know if they're just really excited about mayonnaise up there or not. Just name everything after fucking best foods. After Governor Hellman, if you remember from back in the day.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So he is in the class of 1981 at Mayo High School, known as a real prankster old Dave. Was he? A little cut up there. Yes. Kind of a fun-loving kind of a guy here. So he enlists in the Navy when he graduates. Okay. Which, 81, not a bad time to enlist in the Navy. Vietnam's over. We're not real into any big wars at this point.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's not bad. No problem. Grenada might have been in there or something. But other than that, you're good. Yeah. You're pretty good here. So he's stationed in San Diego also. So not too shabby there. Good decision there. He's doing that. He puts the parka away and goes down to San Diego to look at some bikinis. So there's a friend of his named Denny. So we got Dave and Denny here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And Denny describes meeting Dave. And he said that they became friends because I guess Dave was a friend of a friend and somebody offered him the very attractive offer of, hey, would you like to go over to this guy's house who you don't know and lay some carpet for him as a favor today? And Dave said, sure. What? A more unattractive offer I don't think could be put on the table.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
rocketmoney.com slash smalltownmurder. Now back to the show. This week in Blooming Prairie, Minnesota, a beloved local man is found dead leading to a nationwide hunt for who police are calling the killer grandma. But her path of murder and cruelty doesn't end there. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I guess so. I don't even know if he has that or if it's just like a carpet laying party.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, those things that you put on your knees and pull them out, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I've seen people lay carpets without that shit, though. They just put them down.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We don't know what the hell kind of fucking, I don't know how this guy's living his life. It's not Dave or Denny. It's Dave and Denny's friend.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
so uh anyway they dave agreed to come over and do this so you know he's a nice guy right away no shit because i'd laugh right in your face if you said you want to go to a stranger's house to lay carpet no thank you come over with me to my neighbor's house and you know what that sounds like that sounds like a job is what that sounds like going to a stranger's house to do work sounds like a job doesn't that come with the carpet why are you buying it sans insulation it's
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Because it's cheap. That's what I mean. I guess. Cheap, cheap, cheap. And this is when he's young, too. So I don't know if this is some 24-year-old guy putting his carpet down and doesn't have enough money or whatever the deal is.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's possible. So anyway, Dave and Denny got talking about fishing. which they both reel into fishing, and they become very good friends. And if you judge all of Minnesota off grumpy old men, as I do, everybody does nothing but try to get walleye all the time and musky. That's the whole point of your life.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Sure, you guys work and you go to school and you do things, but it's really just to get to fishing time, isn't it?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Well, that and chasing around hot old ladies, I believe, is what you guys do over there.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Chasing old skirt and fishing. That's what you're doing. Quite the lifestyle I have up there. So Dave and Denny ended up renting a trailer home right on the Mississippi River. And they used that as a, not to live in, but as a base camp for their fishing.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, they literally rented a fishing trailer. That's how much they like to fish.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's quite the life they're putting together here. They entered competitions, too, fishing competitions, and actually won some money and were on ESPN at one point in one of their fishing tournaments in the 80s, which is pretty cool. ESPN in the 80s on a weekend from about 7 a.m. to noon, it was nothing but fishing. There was the guy with that fucking blonde bowl cut there.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
What the hell was his name? It was Jimmy something. I can't remember. It was Jimmy something. But he'd catch you and go, that's a nice fish right there. NOS fish. My dad would say that shit all the time. That's a NOS fish. Every time you'd see any kind of fish, it's a joke. Here you go. That's a NOS fish right there. Every single time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Jimmy Houston with his fucking bowl cut. His big stupid sunglasses.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's a NOS fish. Every time. That's a NOS fish. No matter what. The fish could have had one fucking eye and an arrow sticking in it. He would have said, that's a NOS fish right there.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
loved this one years ago oh that's a nice that's a tough and a nice fish i'll tell you what so they're doing good uh denny said there was a lot of laughter in that boat being out there it didn't take a whole lot to get him laughing he was just a happy guy okay dave's just a big happy guy that's that's what he's known as here um now during this time when he's you know laying carpet and fucking pulling fish out of lakes and rivers and shit
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He's really doing it. That's what I mean. This is not, hey, my man's laying carpet. He meets a young lady that he's quite smitten with. He meets a young lady named Lois Witte, W-I-T-T-E, Lois. Lois has some older sisters named Kim and Cindy, and they'll come in. They'll come into the story later on, too, so you need to know that. They get married on September 17, 1982. He's 19, she's 20.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, got some older gal chasing that old skirt. The old skirt right there. See, Minnesota, this is what happens. What does he do? Fish and chase older women. Just what I said, man. I'm telling you. We nailed it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Nailed it. So, yeah, he and Lois here, I guess, he's got quite the life. He's 19 years old. He's got a fishing trailer. He's laying carpet. He's got a wife already.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. Her father was an engineer at IBM. Her mother is a bit of a mess. There's some stuff floating around in her family, obviously, and we'll find out later on. Her mother's a hoarder. Really bad. Whoa. Really, really, really bad. Like, the house is destroyed. Lois never had a friend over the house because she was so embarrassed. Unlivable.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're, like, back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Like, none of the kids could bring people over the house or anything like that. They never had company. They never had anything because her mother was a hoarder. The whole house was taken over.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I've heard of people that, and I remember, because I remember hearing about the Collier brothers, and I knew there was people like that, where it was like, oh, there's these people, and they just keep a bunch of shit, and then there's dead cats everywhere. And then the TV shows, like, yeah, those people. There they are. There's so many of them, though.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's so fucking sad. You know what I mean? It's so sad. And we don't know the there's always and on hoarders, they'll always find the trigger like, oh, she was fine. And then, you know, her son was hit by a Mack truck and they're like, OK, well, then she started collecting things and then it got weird. There's always some trigger to it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's what I mean. So there we don't know what her mother's trigger is or what happened or what tragedy happened. But whatever happened, it wasn't while Lois was around. So she never found out what the hell caused her mother's problems. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about one of our favorites, SimpliSafe. Oh, SimpliSafe.com.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
S-I-M-P-L-I-S-A-F-E.com. That's absolutely correct. And if you're anything like us, the most important thing for you is probably protecting your family from harm. Right. I mean, nothing else matters if people are coming into your house and murdering your whole family and robbing your house. What's the difference?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's why us here at Small Town Murder, along with millions of other Americans, we trust SimpliSafe with our home security. It's great. Both our studios, our homes, everything that we have is protected with SimpliSafe because it is the best security you're going to get. You can install it incredibly. Now back to the show. Hey, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our stylish friends at Quince. That's right. Let's go elevate your styles, people. Get it going. Look good out there. And you can do it now without breaking your wallet, without breaking the bank, because at With Quince, you can get high-end, versatile pieces at prices we can all actually afford, which is very nice.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You want to get good stuff that lasts and it's good, and they have quality stuff that's very affordable. And you can do like we did, upgrading our stuff here while still being a very reasonable price. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. It's all quality stuff. You're going to love it. Trust us.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It looks good. And I've got the leather jacket. It's a very high-quality item. Real nice, soft leather. Jimmy's got his linen pants he's rocking.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Come on. Be like us. Be fashionable. Get in there with Quince. Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com slash smalltownmurder for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash smalltownmurder to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com Slash small town murder.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But Lois ended up leaving high school after the 11th grade. She dropped out.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Strange thing after the 11th grade. So I guess she figured it's not working out or I don't know. If you have a home life like that, who knows what was going on in her brain here. So following the wedding in 82, she and Dave have three kids in four years.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Wow. They are pumping fucking kids. They talk about. So he is 23 and she's 24 and they got three kids, a fishing trailer, a fucking marriage, all this. That's a lot of responsibility at that age.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I think they have a kid every time they fuck. Man, the cold gets those sperm swimming. You know what I mean? That's how it works.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
No, no, no. When guys have problems with that, they put a fucking cooling. They get a cooling underwear.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yes, because it makes your sperm work better. Yeah, the heat makes them lethargic.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. So that's why like they'll tell you like wear boxer shorts. Don't wear like anything that keeps your balls tight to your body because that'll keep the heat in and keep your your sperm dying. Yeah. So I think this guy's cold environment and loose pants is the best explanation I can have for three kids in four years. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I heard I fucking it was a sitcom where somebody was trying to get somebody pregnant and that was one of the things they tried. I don't remember what it was.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I remember there was a motor in his underwear is all I can remember out of the thing. And that was a joke because they kept hearing the motor. No, nothing's going on. Can't remember what it was. So that's a lot of kids. They had a boy, a girl, and then a boy again. Damn it. Bang, bang, bang. Now, her youngest boy said she was caring about Lois. She was caring.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Always put herself second and us kids first.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. So Dave finishes his stint in the Navy. Remember, he's in the Navy this whole fucking time. He was in Guam after a while. So he was stationed well far away from his family here. And once he gets done with that, the whole family moves back to Rochester. So I think they ended up having those kids in San Diego and all that stuff. So.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Dave gets a job at Krenlo, which is a manufacturer of metal equipment. That sounds fun.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It really does. He drove a forklift.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So that's fun. That's cool. He eventually opened a small bait shop called The Bait Box. There you go. He has a real love of fishing and what bait goes for what. Like, he's a real, like, an expert angler. I mean, that's, you know, guys that really, really know what they're doing with that, they know, like, oh, well, it's fucking July and you're over here, so you need this exact worm.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They don't like those. They like these.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
What are you, fucking, well, until sunset.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Until sunset. Then you get back out there once, you know, they're getting the flies off the top of the water at that point, so...
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely crazy, insane edition of Small Town Murder. If you listened to the intro, you went, killer grandma. Yeah, it's going to be a weird one, man. There's a lot of crazy stuff there. Before we get to that, though, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Tickets are for sale for 2025. We're very excited. First up, Pittsburgh.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, you're just dicking off at 10 a.m. here. So, yeah, they do that. The bait box he opens where he sells live bait and fishing tackle. Great. That's what he's doing. Lois ran a daycare center out of their home, which they had an above-ground swimming pool in the backyard, and the kids, I guess, would swim in there and all that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So that's what they're doing, which I guess if you have three kids that are that close in age and that young,
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Might as well. Throw them in the fucking mix. Who cares? So in 2005, they moved to Blooming Prairie.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And they move here for a specific reason. So Dave could pursue his dream. His dream. And his dream is much like our dreams, Jimmy. We've had many long conversations where we drove from city to city to do shows. Your dreams, your ambitions, and things like your desires, your deepest inner desires come out. We all, including Dave, have a dream of opening a waxworm farm. I know that's our dream.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yes. Waxworm farm. Breeding waxworms.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They're just a type of worm, a specific type of worm that's very good for fishing.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's what they like. That's how specific he is about it. So he moves here to his dream is to open a wax worm farm. That's awesome.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, yeah, totally. So maybe there's that or maybe, I don't know, you could sell them on the internet at that point.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Maybe that'll do it. So their home is out in the country, a mile, it's 218, on 218 is the road, and they say you pass six massive grain bins that sit on the edge of town and then go another mile and you'll find their house.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And their waxwork farm. Six of them, make sure you count.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You get to the edge of town, which you're supposed to know what that is.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And then there's six of those. Now, there's a couple in town, so you want to make sure those six pass the edge of town. Okay. More funny farm thing. Yeah. Make a left where the old Johnson barn used to be. Used to be. Okay. So Dave is known throughout the land as a swell fella, let's just say. Known as a good guy. Everybody in Blooming Prairie tells you Dave is just a cat's meow.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You need waxworms. You need this. They said he's quick with a tip on a fishing spot. Oh, good with that stuff. He has this isn't, by the way, just a wax work, a wax worm business where he does everything himself. He has employees. This is an operation. Absolutely. They said that all his employees say he's very generous. He's not cheap. He's not stingy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He likes to tell stories, be silly and make up funny songs and laugh his ass off. He's just a big, goofy guy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And he's happy. He's fucking, he's making worms. I mean, that's his, so he can fish with them. That's his ambition. He's happy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's great. He's got kind of a big husky Minnesota frame on him. Keep those cold winters out. So everybody said, though, you couldn't be around Dave for a long time without laughing because he was just a laugher, and his laugh would make you laugh because he's just a happy guy. And Lois is also considered a mighty fine lady around town, a cool lady, a nice lady.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said around town the consensus was, this is from that article, Lois was nice. She kept a clean house. She could be thought. Let's see whether she's gregarious. I'll tell you what about her. She keeps a clean house, that one.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That is something else, boy. Her vacuum gets a lot of use. She could be thoughtful, giving some friends who liked horses a set of tumblers frosted with equine figures. So she's just a nice lady. There's a couple named Tess and Rod Koster, K-O-S-T-E-R. They invited Lois and Dave to their lake house along with another couple. And they had a good time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
February the 7th. We are in Pittsburgh. We cannot wait. So get in there. We enjoy Pittsburgh a lot. So please sell it out so we can go back to Pittsburgh at another time because we'd like to come back because we like it there. And then Columbus the next night. Also, get your tickets right now. You are first up. So we can't wait for that. Shutupandgivememurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said Lois had brought steaks with her for dinner, and they got up the next morning, and she's making breakfast for everybody. So good people is what they're getting at here. Now, February 16, 2006, they have some seriously bad luck, this family here. A fire destroys their home.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Their whole house burns to the fucking ground. They lost everything, including their cats.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Everything. So it sucks. No one was hurt in the fire. Everybody gets out except for the cats. And the worms are in another building, though, by the way. So the worms are alive. Those wax worms, they'll melt to nothing, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, but in a clump. It's really tough. Rock hard.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. They the cause of this, they decide may have been it wasn't arson or anything like that. They thought it might have been some faulty wiring. And Dave did the wiring. So. Oh. Dave feels terrible about this. He feels like he fucking, his family is homeless because he's an idiot and he didn't do something right. So he feels really fucking bad. And so everyone in town felt bad for them as well.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they all took up a collection for him, for the family. It's really nice. A neighbor here, or this is the executive director of the Blooming Prairie Chamber of Commerce, said that's something our community does for people, whether they know them or not. apparently very nice people here support Minnesota. Nice. That's, that's it right there. So they rebuilt their house and move back in here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's three bedroom, two bath and lowest, same lot. Well, yeah, they just rebuilt the same house cause they have the worm farm up front there too. Uh, Lois set up a daycare center facility there as well. So now she did that. Um, All the parents said she was great. They dropped the kids off. A lot of times, she'd have hot sandwich, like an egg sandwich for them there.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
To the parents, not even for the kids.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You drop your kid off, she's like, want a bacon, egg, and cheese on a hard roll? He's like... Yeah, I guess so. Fuck yeah. Why not? You go on your merry way.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Do you add an extra $20 at the end of the week for sandwiches or what? Because that's fucking awesome, though.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
How great is that? I don't even care how you treat the kids. I get fucking sandwiches.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Don't let them get in the way of making those sandwiches. Let's just say that. Whatever you have to do, keep them away from you. I want sandwiches. Obviously, that'll get you some repeat customers, I would say. Once they're children, now they move out. They have kids of their own. They become grandparents.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They're going to have five grandkids here. Oh, boy. And they said Lois just spoils those grandkids like crazy. And, you know, that's what happens. Grandparents are like that. Lois would buy them cell phones, ATVs they could ride around the property. Just crazy. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You also should obviously listen to our other two shows, Crime and Sports and Your Stupid Opinions, which are –
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's fun. That's a fun fucking grandma. That's the greatest. When they come over, they have ATVs to ride around and shit. She's trying to make it so the grandkids want to come over and hang out at the house and she can see them.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She bought them a fucking ice cream truck at that point. So she would do all of this. She joined a women's bowling league at Bunkies, which is a four lane bowling alley on Main Street. That's a very small bowling alley. It's a lot of sounds like a lot of weight on that one here. That's that's rough. Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She would travel to tournaments around the state with a group of about three dozen women. Bowling tournaments. 36 girls. Oh, yeah, that's right, man. That's it. The Chamber of Commerce lady said she was fun-loving. She had the cutest smile, meaning Lois did. So she's a good cook. Everybody knows that. A couple times a week she would bring lunch over to the five guys who worked at the worm farm.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
goddamn hilarious and we think you'll enjoy them you don't have to like sports you can just right it's fun and then you also if you've got enough of this you need more we have got patreon for you give you all the bonus episodes you could want here patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus episodes so much
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She'd just come out, got lunch for you guys. She would bring out, like, big hunks of lasagna and shit like that. Here you go. Fuck yeah, that sounds great.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. If you give me food, I am going to have a very hard time not liking you. Yeah. That's the thing. Especially if it's good food. If you lead with food, especially. That's the thing. If you lead with food, we're going to be friends probably. Even if I don't like you, I will eat your food. I do like food.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. Fucking fuck him and his food. Look at this asshole and his lasagna.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know how much I want Minnesota lasagna, but I'm sure it's the effort that matters. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Probably, yeah. I don't think she's getting to check out here, but that's fine. Still, it's the effort that counts.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's the effort. So she stopped running the daycare around 2014 and she would help out with the farm kind of here and there, the worm farm and do all that. But the worm farm became a lucrative business. Wow. They're actually selling mad worms here. The staff made weekly deliveries to Walmart, Quick Trip, bait shops throughout the area. They're selling them to fucking Walmart. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They don't die fast. They don't die fast. They last a long time, worms. They last weeks and weeks and weeks.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know. Good question. I mean, quick enough to make a business out of it. You've got to have billions of worms, right? That's why it's a whole farm, I think, a whole worm operation. You can't just have one bucket there going, well, they're working on it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I think they pick the worms out and just put them in the dirt. Yeah, I don't think they scoop the dirt. And they just bury themselves? Yeah, then they bury themselves in the dirt. I guess that makes sense. It's not, there's usually about a dozen per scoop, so.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Meanwhile, every time it's always 12. You're like, man, they're good. Fuck, they're good. They're good. So, in addition to the local places, they also delivered bait throughout Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they were really doing that. They also shipped boxes of wax worms. Apparently wax worms are an excellent bait for panfish everywhere. Anywhere there's panfish, that's where wax worms are. So they're sending them out all over the place. And winter was their biggest and busiest time, actually, because there's a really high demand for these type of worms for ice fishing, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So Dave's friend said of the farm, quote, that place was a money-making machine.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
If you said, can you make a great living off worms? I'd say, of course not.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. But you picture like the worm guy and it's probably some like hunched over guy that goes out with a bucket in the morning and a little shovel and picks them out. No, this is an operation. This is a whole deal. I didn't realize that. So, yeah, he treats his employees well. I guess these are young guys he hires, guys in their early 20s and that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Anybody, $5 a month or above, you're going to get not only an absolutely enormous back catalog of hundreds of bonus episodes immediately upon subscription, but new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small-town murder, and you get... All of it. That's right. This week, we're going to talk about for crime and sports. And you don't really have to care about sports for this.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And they all look up to him and they think he's a nice guy. He would give them a little extra money here and there. Here's 20 bucks, go put gas in your truck or something like that. Nice guy, take them fishing just to be camaraderie.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Do it. His friend Denny said he was kind to people he didn't even know. That's nice. Now, their lifestyle, Lois and Dave, they have a fun little lifestyle.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They do. Remember the BP Servicemen's Club?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't think it's a gas station. I think it's something else because Lois and Dave often ate dinner at the Servicemen's Club. I think it's like a naval... It's for like ex-Navy people. He volunteered on the board there and looked after the books as well.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He's doing that. He actually discovered someone was embezzling funds and stopped them from doing it and turned them in and all this shit. So Dave's a very upstanding guy. That's the thing here. He also campaigned for the club to start selling pull tabs to raise money, which are like lottery tickets basically.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's it. He pushed it through. He's a good bowler. He likes pool better than bowling though. He likes to shoot pool at the pizza cellar or the pool table. This J&H Liquors is an enigma or the back room of J&H Liquors.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
This is a liquor store with a pool table in the back room, a DJ in the parking lot, and street dancing out front. This place is fucking crazy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The craziest liquor store in town, man.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I guess J&H Liquor is what they call it, a fucking liquor store. It's weird. So he'd go there, have a few beers. He drank Miller Lite.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And he'd hang out around the pool table and bullshit with the other pudgy fishermen, I would assume.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They'd end up back at the worm farm a lot of times, and they'd hang out in his office. Dave had a good stereo in there. They'd be drinking Miller Lights, talking about fish and worms.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We are absolutely right to basically say whatever lifestyle dumb and dumber fucking grumpy old men had, that's pretty much how people live, even if they're not 75, apparently. Because he's in his 50s at this point. He's doing this. On Sundays, the group would gather in some other guy's house, which was basically a shed behind his house that he turned into a TV room.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Turned into a little cave there. And they'd watch the Vikings game, of course, on the big screen TV. And Lois, usually, she'd send along a cake or deviled eggs or something that she'd make. This is so folksy. This is so Midwestern.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We're going to talk about Travis Rudolph, who was a recent NFL player in 2017, 18, and just finished up a murder trial as well. So we'll get into all of that. And then for small town murder, we're going to do part two of the West Memphis three. We'll find out how the hell we even ended up where we ended up.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It is. And the lady from the Chamber of Commerce said, you know, Lois seemed like a real regular gal. She said she was funny. She was cute. They said, quote, she was a little round, blonde hair, kind of piercing eyes. They were both fun. Dave was really nice and witty. Lois was just bubbly.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So that's who we're dealing with here. We're dealing with a couple who everybody seems to like, and that's how you want to be described, by the way, a little round. A little round.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they said there's never any problems there. There's never cops are never called to the wax farm, the wax worm farm or anything like that. They said no domestic violence or no giant blow ups of holy shit. These two are going to kill each other out here. Nothing like that. You know, she would she'd go out fucking bowling and he'd do his servicemen's club stuff and they would. All right.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Hang out and they'd go boating or fishing or hung out with Tess and Rod Koster or whatever. That was their day. So 2018 comes around here. Now, Thursday, March 8th, 2018, let's talk about. Dave's friends saw him at the old J&H Liquors, obviously, shooting some pool, having some Miller Lights on Thursday evening, March 8th. And they bullshitted and shot some pool.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And, you know, we're talking about are the Vikings going to suck next season? That's what they were talking about. And they were saying that Dave and Lois were going to go to Wisconsin to see their grandson play in a basketball tournament. That's what the plans were. So totally nothing crazy going on here. So that's Thursday, March 8th.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Now, Monday, March 12th, after this weekend, Lois stops by the Worm Farms office. And they said instead of usually like she would greet the workers real warmly and how you had everything go. You have a nice weekend. Did you did your kid have that thing that you're talking about? All that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said instead she came in and kept her head down. And all she said is Dave's not feeling good. I've got to take care of him. And then they didn't see Dave or her Tuesday or Wednesday of that week. OK, so they know how to run the worm farm. I guess it can run whether Dave's there or not. So then on Thursday, she came back down to the office, and they're like, hey, how's Dave?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You know, Jesus, he's three days. We haven't seen Dave. He hasn't even walked out to the worm farm. This is crazy. He's going to have worm withdrawals here. So she said, no, he's still sick. She goes, we have an appointment. I'm taking him to the doctor tomorrow because he just can't kick this thing. Yeah. So they were like, that's weird.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The employees thought it was really weird that he was doing this. But they also know they knew that Dave had a long history of stomach troubles, different problems. So they thought maybe something coming to Miller Light will do that to you after a while. Miller Light, Minnesota lasagna will get you. That'll get you.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
How did how did they even need a documentary team to come on down there and check all that out? We'll talk all about it and more. Patreon dot com slash crime in sports. And not only that, you get a shout out at the end of the show. Jimmy will mispronounce your name horribly, probably, but he wants to get it right. That's the important part.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they didn't want to bother him because they thought maybe he's really sick, but they just kind of left him alone. They said that Lois would sit at the desk in the office, at his desk, and stare out the window and all that. They said at one point she put her head in her hands and elbows on her knees, like you do at the end of every day. Oh, God, why?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
How did I get here and how do I get away from it?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, God. One of the employees said, are you okay? And she said, yeah, fine. I didn't sleep good last night. So, yeah, that's kind of how that goes. And this goes into the next week.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The next week, Lois tells the guys that he's still sick, but the doctor cleared him to compete in the season opener of the Cabela's Masters Walleye Circuit, a fishing competition. That is a big – dude, the Cabela's Walleye? Oh, boy, that's a –
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's a big fucking day here, man. God, Jesus. That's so funny that Minnesota really is a grumpy old man. Just the whole, that's exactly what's going on there. So that meant he's supposed to leave that Tuesday morning. That would be March 20th, I believe, and pick up Denny Clark, and they're going to drive five hours down to the Illinois River to compete in this fishing competition.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
After that, geez. So that's what all the employees said. Oh, they figured that that's what's going on here. Oh, Dave, now he's going to his fishing tournament until the employees saw lowest drive off in the Cadillac Escalade. Now, that is what Dave would take on fishing trips would be this escalade. And this was two days after Dave was supposed to be away at the fishing tournament.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So like he didn't take his truck. That's weird. But they see Lois pulling away and that's that. So interesting. Now, Thursday, March 22nd comes around. It's been almost two weeks since anybody's talked to Dave.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
At all. None of his employees have talked to him, which is odd. He has a business partner that hasn't seen or talked to him in almost two weeks as well. They're all kind of getting together and going, when did you talk to Dave last? I haven't talked to him in a while. Oh, it's been since then. Oh, shit, me too. So they all kind of get their stories together. They call him. He doesn't pick up.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He doesn't return calls. They said they did receive responses to text messages from, But they thought their responses were really weird because Dave doesn't type his text. I guarantee you he has fat fingers. I'm not saying it in a bad way. He's got like old man thumbs probably. Not a big texter. So they said he dictates all his messages.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So that's that said, I think it's time for the disclaimer.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Which means all the words, some of the words run together and there's no punctuation also. That's what happens. So they said these replies use like proper punctuation and somebody typed them.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Like they were writing a letter. Yeah, comma this. And they're like, that's not Dave. So they were like, that's weird. But maybe because he's just sick and has time to do it. Who knows? Who knows? He was supposed to have left for a fishing tournament on March 20th. And he would have taken the Escalade, which is what he used to pull his 20-foot boat.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But yeah, like I said, they saw instead Lois pulls out the Escalade. And then they don't see Lois either. Huh. So they don't know what to do. They're like, Lois is gone. He's gone. What the fuck do we do now? What do we do? We need a boss. Yeah. So that day that she takes off and they don't see her anymore, they're worried about everybody. And so they call the police to do a check on everybody.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
comedy show everybody this is a comedy show with everything is true that's the sad and sick part is that yeah we unfortunately none of this is made up for any kind of comedic effect or make it more entertaining or you know interesting or anything like that you don't have to these stories are absolutely insane and you might say well how the hell do you make true crime and comedy go together I
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Can you make sure Lois is okay and make sure Dave is fishing and all that shit? This is the employees that call the police.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So Friday, March 23rd, 2008, the police department decide they dispatch two officers to do a little looky-loo here on Dave and see if he's all right. So they drive up. The house was dark. They said, OK. They said that the wax worm farm is about 50 paces from the front door. I mean, if he can't go 50 paces out there, he must be really sick.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's really sick. So they visit at night to do this, the cops. It's dark and cold. There's snow on the ground. They said no one answered the door.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Creepiest time. Yeah. So just in case anyone is there, they'll see us like looking in the window, fogging it up with our breath. That won't be weird or anything.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Let's not fucking come broad daylight in the fucking first thing in the morning or anything.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So the officers in the pitch dark in the snow and everything else, they're walking around the house and they noticed a light coming from a window. And they went and the bathroom window was open.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Which is not normal, I would say, for when it's cold out and there's snow on the ground to have your bathroom window open.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Something. Either that or someone is shitting that thing up.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
If you want to sit in a 30-degree bathroom, you are really shitting it up good. So the bathroom is above the height you can see from standing, so they boost each other. One of the cops boosts the other cop up, which is really hilarious to watch armed adults boosting each other. Give me a boost. Not fucking nine-year-olds trying to go over a fence.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Come on. You can do it. It's either that or he got on his shoulders like a fucking chicken fight, which would have even been funnier. Bend over.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Come on, do it. So one of them looks in, and he sees a blanket on the floor of the bathroom with something under it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Something that appears to be in the shape of a human.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's a big bump and a big blanket. So they get two more deputies out here who went inside the house. They actually go inside the house, and they find Dave on the bathroom floor under this blanket. Very dead. His stomach is really fucked up. When you have a blanket covering your whole body just lying on the bathroom floor with the window open, you know your stomach's fucked up.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So, yeah, no, he is on the ground, on the floor. He'd been shot twice with a .22 handgun. Wow. Once in the chest and once in the back. And none of the employees have heard gunshots. None of the neighbors. There's not a lot of close neighbors, but no one's heard any gunshots or anything like that here. A bullet had pierced clean through his forearm. So it's probably defensive.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And then went into his chest. So it looks like he was holding up trying to block it. And they said he has been dead for a long time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They're thinking around 10 days at this point, maybe longer.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Hey man was never sick or that, or he was really sick.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I think it's pretty easy, actually. To me, it makes it more digestible. It's it's a little easier to take than somebody. And then her head was removed from her body. That's a little creepy to me. And also there's another way you do it. And this is what we do here is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims families.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they said his body had already, it's decomposing and bloating. And I mean, it's even with the window open, it's still, you know, it's not that cold in there. So they're looking around trying to find Lois. It's saying, Oh my God, maybe she's going to be in another room. We're going to find her fucking dead, covered up somewhere too. Uh, so they're looking for her and, uh,
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They don't know where she is. They can't find her. The Cadillac's gone. She's gone. Everybody's gone. By the way, one of Dave's friends, Jerry, said he was my best buddy. Every day I go by their house and I wonder what the hell happened up there. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a very cool place, Thrive Market.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yes, we are both looking to get into the healthy swing this year. The problem is I don't know what's in everything, and I don't know if even I'm qualified to even read the labels to know if that's good or that's bad. There's chemicals and things, and there's things floating around. I don't know what I'm doing out there.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
One of my favorite features, I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. Yeah, it's simple. You scan any item and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding these safe, healthy foods.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
For example, like I'm trying to get my protein intake up. Yeah. for energy. I'm always moving around. I need stuff. And I love that you can filter their site by the high protein options. It's very cool. And you can personalize this portion and you can put filters on it and get ready. You should be ready for a junk free start to 2025.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Get ready for it and head to thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash smalltownmurder, thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January, it's a whole new slate. Clean. You bet. It is blank pages all the way around.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here. A little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to Fade away by February, right after New Year's. Think of therapy as an editorial partner. There you go. That's a good way to put it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
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Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The one you deserve. And we can't say enough about therapy. Yeah. We all have problems and we all have issues and none of us are above. None of us have the right answer all the time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash SmallTownMurder.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. See how that works?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about a big-time hero that we've just encountered. I'm a bread enthusiast. And with Hero Bread, you can focus on these health goals that you have, that we all have, trying to get ourselves better and still indulge in the luscious, wonderful, soft... Mmm, just so good. The fluffy goodness of bread that you love.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But guilt-free with the Hero Bread. That's the thing. You like enjoying a nutritious breakfast wrap, avocado toast, grilled cheese, maybe with some soup on a cold, rainy day. Maybe a family burger night. Well, their products are delicious and flavorful. And they have ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and are high in fiber. They're pretty delicious. I really like the Hawaiian rolls.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's super easy to do there. So if you think that that sounds like a good time to you and you want to hear a crazy story, this is for you. If you think that true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, you might not like the show. But no complaining later because we warned you. That said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody. Let's all clear the lungs. What do you say here? Sure.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They're good. Yeah. I got the Hawaiian rolls.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They're so, they're like, they still feel like buttery and stuff.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, God, yeah. These are good for you. They're not bad at all. And the texture. This is the thing. I'm a nut with bread texture. I don't like different textures, but they have a really nice, good bread texture. It's delicious. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use the code smalltownmurder at checkout. That's the code smalltownmurder at h-e-r-o.co.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I would say so. So they had to find Lois to find out what happened. So basically all they know about Lois is they find out from her friends that she is known to frequent casinos.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they said, we're looking for this lady. She might be in trouble. She might be kidnapped. She might be in peril or she might be a criminal. Either way, she's a person of interest that we'd like to talk to. So if you're in a casino and you see this lady, give us a shout.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's looking for her. It warned that she might be armed as well because we do know she owns a gun. Her father had given her as a collector's item, his Colt Woodsman 22. So we know she has a 22 handgun as well. So, yeah, then now the officer assigned to this had discovered here. He looks into this whole thing. Where's Lois?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Because, you know, first thing you look for if you're looking for someone is their banking activity.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Phone and banking activity in 2018. That's what you're looking for. You should be able to track anybody through that.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Nobody keeps enough cash to not have to use a card and nobody fucking doesn't use their phone. So they found out that in the previous week, Lois had deposited two business checks that were missing from the worm farm. One for $8,684.80. That's a lot of worms. And the other for $1,209.60 into her husband's personal checking account at Citizen State Bank in Glenville, which is a half-hour drive away.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So she did that. She had then cashed three checks drawn on his account for $2,500, $7,500, and $1,000. Eleven grand. Eleven grand on March 23rd. The last of those came out. So judging by that, basically, because she did that through the business and she's not on the business, this is not a business. They put out a warrant to arrest her for felony theft.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Fraud. So they can at least now they can find her and bring her in because now there's a warrant. It's not just a bolo. So that's different. A warrant, people are really looking for it. And it's in the computer. You'll punch it up and it'll be there. And also a U.S. marshal assisting with the investigation said all signs, meaning of the murder, pointed immediately to her, obviously. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Arms to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Here we go. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We're going to Minnesota.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So but they didn't understand why this would happen.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
This doesn't make much sense at all. So they're really trying to figure this out because they're like this. It just doesn't add up exactly. Much like his checking account. This is not adding up. So they said that's what everyone in town was talking about. It's all anybody was talking about was they said the forensics class in Blooming Prairie High School discussed the case for several weeks.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Which, I mean, if you're a forensics class, that makes sense.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I wish we had a forensics class in high school. I never had that. That would have been fucking awesome.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Or just looking over them. That's fucking cool as shit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I would have loved that shit, man. It would have really given me a path.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Hey, I'm interested in murder, I guess. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They look around. They said, okay, there's got to be an affair happening here. Either she's having an affair and running away to it, or he was having an affair and she's had enough.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Nobody's having any affairs. They look into it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Neither of them are having any affairs. There's never been any domestic abuse. There's never been any strife, trouble. There's no reason for this. This makes no sense of why she would do this. They said that... It's just weird. So one, they think that this might be because she's a gambling addict. That's all they could think. But that's all they could really find is she is a big gambler.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Outside of that, there's really nothing to her. There's no vices. There's nothing secret. One of the cops said this was a new one for me. It was hard for me to wrap my head around someone committing a murder just to feed a gambling addiction. So he's like, I didn't know if I was buying that because that seems odd, very weird. And one of the other U.S. Marshals says she's not the common murderer.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She doesn't portray that image. People just don't think of a grandmother being a cold-blooded murderer. You hope not anyway. The number is just so small. It's very small for anything like that. For murder? The other thing is she doesn't – this is the odd part is usually gamblers – there's gambler profiles basically. There's only a few different types of gamblers.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, your brain, much like a drug or a food or something like that, your brain reacts a certain way, and there's only a few different kind of ways your brain really reacts to gambling. And the people who get addicted to it and get really into it, it affects them in one of a few ways, basically.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said there are basically two categories, and there are little bits, little things off of this, little estuaries probably that lead to other things. But the two basic categories that encompass 98% of the gamblers are thrill seekers. That's usually men that play skill-based games with high stakes. Think about Texas Hold'em. Texas Hold'em or the guys doing high-level fantasy shit too.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We like Minnesota a lot. We really do. This is Blooming Prairie, Minnesota, where we've never done a show out in the prairie there. We mainly stick to Minneapolis. But hey, that's all right. This is in southern Minnesota. It's about an hour and 20 minutes to Minneapolis. Mm-hmm. And also, an hour 20 minutes to our last Minnesota episode, which was in Woodbury, Minnesota.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. Because gambling most of the time it doesn't involve sports because they're usually not good at it. But most of your gamblers, it's other people playing sports, not them.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So but like a gambler like that, it's a thrill seeker. That's what Jordan is. Exactly. But this is like, you know, skill based games with high stakes. They want to win big and also escape artists or the other type of person. These are people trying to escape life.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It gets them out of everything. They say these are often people who play slot machines, but they don't even play them to hit a jackpot, they said. That's not what they're there for. It's to enter a trance state that makes them disconnect from the world.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Just pull the knob. You just concentrate. Cherry, seven, fucking gold coin.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Cherry, cherry, gold coin. Fuck. Pull again. That's it. And after a while, your whole life, your whole shit becomes that and you forget about what your troubles are. Holy shit. So that's what they do. They said women with gambling habits are more likely to fall into the second category, the escape bars. There are some, but they're not usually. 95% of the thrill-seeker gamblers are men.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's just how it is. A 2005 article about female gambling published in the International Journal of Mental Health and Addiction said, said that electronic slot machines like alcohol and drugs can be used for mood management. Yeah, it's just it'll regulate you. They said many women with gambling problems are seeking a way to numb emotions, shut out the world and orchestrate a timeout.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Just basically this is I'm here now and you can't get me type of thing. They said in the article, as the gambling problem progresses, many women become more and more isolated as well. And this exacerbates feelings of loneliness and shame and guilt that they have from gambling in the first place. Okay. So it's a big snowball that goes down a hill at the bottom of it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Nothing to do with winning for them. For men, it has everything to do with winning. The high stakes are big, but only because that gives them more adrenaline. It has nothing to do with the actual money. It's not like I'm going to do that so I can buy that fucking condo for my mom down in Boca Raton. Yeah. That's not what they're doing. They just want to win. They want the feeling of the win.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's why if they win $100,000, they just don't go awesome and leave. They're like, if winning $100,000 feels like this, what's winning a million feel like? I got to find out. And they do that. That's why I'm not a gambler. Because I'd go $100,000. I'd go, $100,000, and I'd be gone. You'd never see me again.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
No, that's because we're not gamblers. We don't have that thing. Yeah, we don't have that. So and they during the investigation, they figure out that Lois has withdrawn from friends and family in the last couple months. So they're thinking this might be part of that. And this is all just a theory they have at this point because they don't have Lois. They don't know where she is.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So they have to talk to people and try to put together a psychological profile of her essentially. And they think because she has been withdrawing, maybe that's because she's been gambling more and more. And maybe that could have caused this. Who knows? That's what they're trying to figure out.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That was episode 516, The Office Stalker. I remember that was a freaky weird story there. This is freaky weird. This is in Steele County. Steele with an E on the end of it there. Steele County. It's also a little bit of this town edges over into Dodge County as well. So a couple of counties. Area code 507. The motto here. This is you are really, really, really optimistic motto.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So one of the family members said, I don't know if it was a condition of her addiction, but she'd cut ties with a lot of people, family and friends. A lot of people we talked to said, yeah, I know Lois, but I haven't talked to her in a while. That was the general consensus.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Now, there's a place they go, and I'll show you a picture of it in a little while, called Diamond Joe Casino, and Diamond J-O, Joe. And it does not look like a casino.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It looks like a rural gas station without the gas. That's what it looks like.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, God, no. It was in, yeah, it was. It was on the way from Kansas City to Oklahoma City, and we were like, that's a casino? Yeah. But imagine that, but shitty looking too, but run down.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, it's not good, the Diamond Joe Casino. Dave occasionally went with Lois to the Diamond Joe, but he's not a real big gambler. That's not his thing. It's her thing. So they said that it had been a problem. Lois, they found out, had bilked several Worm Farm employees out of some money. How much can you make on the worm farm to be built out of money? That's terrible. And why?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Well, apparently she was getting, quote, donations from them to everybody pitch in to get a golf cart for Dave so he could shuttle around the property and go back and forth from the business to the house and all that shit. So a lot of the employees pitched in for this and then she never bought it. So nothing. She just got a bunch of money and gambled it away. That was it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That was her way of scamming money. One family member suspected that she went to the casino with money designated for the interment of her father's remains.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
There's gambling problems, and then there's taking the funeral money and gambling at gambling problems. That is wild.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They were supposed to be a thing, so his ashes had sat in her house for many months after his death because she was supposed to do something else with them. Instead, she's sitting there with the poor guy's fucking ashes in a bag because she gambled away the money she was supposed to use. This was in 2014, so this was four years earlier.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Her son Braden says that, and this is insane, after her father died, she got a half a million dollar inheritance from her, from the father. She gambled it all away. No. Gambled away a half million dollar inheritance. This guy saved up this money his whole life. His whole life. Gave it to her and she pissed it away. She did. She got rid of nothing like nothing.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The son Braden said it was all secrecy. Gambling is a terrible thing where it can suck people in and destroy lives. Yeah. Gambling is worse than drugs. It's worse than drugs. It is.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
To me, it's like this carnivorous fucking, like a carnivorous worm that, because I want to talk about worms here, carnivorous worm that can just get in and eat everything. It's like a locust.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You can see it. You can see it. They go to work and go, Jesus Christ, Dave, you have a problem, man. You can't.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know why it was Dave, but. You can't show up smelling like this and doing all the gambling until you see who they've been stealing from or whatever. You don't see that it's a problem. And if you have half a million dollars, it's not a problem. That's legal for you to piss your own money away. That's the other problem. There's nothing illegal or immoral about it even.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's not about the big win. It's crazy. I don't get it at all. I really don't.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But that's just me. But to me, yeah, gambling is... And I don't care if it's legal. If you want to piss your money away, go ahead. I don't fucking care. There's tons of shit to piss your money away on. You can buy a bunch of cars that you can't afford. You can buy a bunch of whatever you can't afford. So that's not my fucking place to tell you where to use your money.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But it's even worse now because it's right on your phone. You don't even have to go anywhere.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Dude, there's people that, like, I read this book about draft kings and all that kind of shit, and, dude, there's people that lose everything over this shit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
A great place to spend the next hundred years. Wow. I mean, shit, if you got it in you, sure.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They are obsessed with it, and it can't be stopped. It's right on their phone, so it's, you know, all times of day. It's crazy, dude. It's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They found some other shit here. They found out that her oldest sister, Kim, Lois' oldest sister, Kim... In October 2010, Kim's marriage was falling apart and she had a fucking mental breakdown. Just boom. So Lois and Dave let Kim live with them. Before they ended up, her breakdown was so bad they had to place her in adult foster care.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I've never heard of that before. Apparently that's like a... Isn't that rehab? Like a halfway house for mental illness or something. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's not a hospital, but it's like adult foster. Never heard of that before. So in February 2012, claiming that her sister was unable to perform tasks for daily living or make decisions regarding her medical needs, Lois applied to be Kim's legal guardian and conservator. That's how bad she took that breakup, Kim. Wow. Wow. So she said that she applies for that.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
According to the forms that she filled out, her sister suffered from bipolar disorder as well as clinical depression and had the cognitive capacity of a 10-year-old. I don't know if she always had the cognitive capacity of a 10-year-old or just this mental breakdown caused this. I'm not sure.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
100 years. Well, you're going to be there for 100 years, apparently, if you move there. That's a very optimistic motto. History of this town. 1868 it started. They took the name of the surrounding Blooming Prairie Township. And they were like, let's just knock the township off. Very creative people. Very creative. Now, before Prohibition came into effect here...
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So there's required annual filings, I guess, if you're someone's conservator like that. So Lois reported that her sister's emotional, mental, and physical states had deteriorated. And she noted on the forums that Kim had schizophrenia and Parkinson's disease. And she got this from a breakup? Wow. I don't think you can get Parkinson's from a breakup. Maybe all the mental stuff, but...
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Please don't break up with me. I don't want to shake for the rest of my life is a really that'd be weird. So she also declared that Kim had obsessive compulsive disorder that caused her to go on shopping sprees and spend lavishly. All right. So they gave Lois control of Kim's finances then because of this. This included a $200,000 inheritance from their father. Oh, no.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Lois withdrew thousands of dollars at a time from an ATM at the Diamond Joe Casino.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She gambled it. A court audit dated September 15, 2015 showed that Lois' fiduciary shit was insane. All this bullshit included a payment of $14,070 on an alleged debt to their already deceased father.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said that she paid $14,000 out of it as a debt paid back the father who's been dead for three years. Three years. Supposed gifts to Lois's three children totaling $15,000 and almost $8,500 in reimbursement for undocumented expenses purportedly paid by Lois. So Kim has a social worker advocate that requested suspension of Lois's role as guardian and conservator.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Lois tried to explain it all away, but the court said, no, no, no.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You don't understand. Guardianship was suspended. And four months later, she was discharged as the guardian. And Kim remained under state's care, like to this day, from what I understand.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That divorce broke her fucking brain. That's sad.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Broke everything. The Steel County Attorney's Office decided not to press criminal charges against Lois because a judge ordered her to repay $100,534 to Kemp. So they said, all right, that's fine. They got reimbursement and retribution, whatever.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So much. Diamond Joe is collecting. Dude, you could build five Diamond Joes for $100,000. This place is a dump. It looks like a one-room fucking dump. It looks like a shithole. So now Lois's attorney from this time said that, quote, Lois is a really pleasant person to be around. She's friendly, caring, warm. She said she really liked her. Now, she's got some other issues, Lois, here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Lois has her own bout of depression. In 2016, two years before Dave was found dead, Lois just went missing at one point.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
This was right after the theft from her sister was exposed here. Dave came home from lunch at Dairy Queen with a co-worker. Very good choice, Dave. Those cheeseburgers are excellent. I think it's because the pickles are a little thicker. You think so? I think it's... Something about those pickles being a drop thicker and not so thin and shitty that makes them delicious.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know if it's that, the fucking cheese, the butter soft.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's a good little cheeseburger.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's a goddamn good burger. So he asked the coworker who he went to have Dairy Queen with to drop him off at the house instead of the worm farm so he could use the bathroom. I mean, the Dairy Queen went through him. It will go through you. That is one thing. It is delicious.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Blooming Prairie's presence near the intersection of all these counties made it a big-time place to stop and buy alcohol.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
By the time you get from the Dairy Queen to your house, you're going to need to make a pit stop.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's what it is. So he walked in the house to go take a dump. Now, this is the thing. I got to use the bathroom quick, which I'm sure there's a bathroom in the worm farm. That meant he's got to drop a deuce, right?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He comes in with a hot double burger deuce cooking in his fucking belly here. He's got a real ice cream sundae brewing in there. There's a blizzard going on. And he walks inside and finds Lois unconscious in a chair.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. What do you do first? She overdosed on pills.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Do you call 911 as you're shitting? What do you do? You're like, you got to come here. Oh, God. And they're like, are you okay, sir? Yeah, no, I'm fine. I just had Dairy Queen. But she's the main problem.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Thank fuck we always keep this bathroom window open. So she had overdosed on pain pills on purpose, clearly. He calls 911. First responders come. They do CPR. She's helicopter airlifted to the St. Mary's Hospital in Rochester. Oh, yeah. After almost two weeks, she recovered. She was in the hospital at Mayo Clinic for two weeks.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. In 1917, Steele County was the only one of the four around it. Mower, Freeborn, Dodge and Steele to be to have alcohol for sale.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She just kind of laid low in Blooming Prairie for a while and basically then started going out acting like nothing happened. Everybody else ignored it because it is small town America. No one will talk behind your back, but no one's going to be like, so I heard you're all fucked up. I'll just pretend everything's fine.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's a lot of money there, chicky. So, yeah, and Dave tried to protect her from the gossip and all that kind of thing here. He would just make passing comments saying, you know, she's doing better and, you know, trying to help out with the gambling and all that kind of thing here. He said later on, though.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
About this day that he found her unconscious, Dave said, quote, that was one of the biggest mistakes of my life going up to the house that day. Oh. Yeah. Dave said one of the biggest mistakes I ever made was finding her unconscious and saving her. He said that to a friend of his.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
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Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He said, it's just, damn it. Life would be easier if that would have happened.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It is. If somebody would have just cooked this burger to proper temperature, I'd be one widowed son of a gun. Man, so the cops obviously think that she has something to do with the death here at this point, clearly. And they're looking. There's a U.S. Marshals North Star Fugitive Task Force based in Minneapolis, which sounds really official.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I mean, the North Star Fugitive Task Force. We find everything like the North Star.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, shit. So they heard speculation that Lois was siphoning money from the worm farm and that Dave was aware of the gambling habit. They said maybe Dave caught her. doing this and, you know, something like squandering all his money and, and, uh, he confronted her and maybe that's what happened. And, uh, one of the cops said after that, the husband said, I'm done. I'm cutting you off.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So you could both own and consume alcohol, but you could also sell it there, too. So that was a big deal. So during the Prohibition Act, several tunnels were dug under the businesses on Main Street. They tunneled under Main Street for the purpose of making moonshine and being able to move it back and forth without being seen on the surface, which is pretty goddamn funny.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
If you want more money, you can work for me in the business, but I'm not giving you anymore. Maybe she got pissed off and whatever. Um, like I said, going around town, it was difficult because everyone in Blooming Prairie just said, Oh yeah, they're a nice couple. They're great. Yeah. They show up down at the bowling alley and All that kind of thing here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And people who knew things about Lois's past, like the theft from her sister and the attempted suicide and all that, they just wouldn't say shit, these people. None of my business, they'd say. I don't know. They seem nice to me. It's interesting. One person, Scott Carlson, who's one of Dave's real close friends, said Lois was likable, but you always knew she was a click off.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She did some oddball shit, which means I think I would like Scott because of the way he said that.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She did some oddball shit. That's his quote to the newspaper, which means I like this guy. I don't care what you're writing for. She did some oddball shit, and that's how I'm going to put it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, go ahead and put that in there. I don't give a shit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So apparently they talked about in July of 2016 she had disappeared for three days.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So Dave discovered some new debts she had incurred and was so concerned that he reported her missing to the sheriff's office. And when Lois returned, she said she'd been visiting a girlfriend in Minneapolis and acted like it was no big deal. Like normal people just disappear for three days. It's OK. It's fine. I can't imagine if I disappeared for three days and just came home.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Sarah would be like, where the fuck have you been? What is wrong with you?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I just went. Yeah, I got a guy friend down in Jersey I've been visiting. Up in Albany. Yeah, I just went. It's about an hour and a half away. I just went up there. What's the big deal?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't get it. So media outlets across the world are really enjoying this story. Yeah, because it's juicy. It's juicy as shit. They nickname her because all these publications and different sites have to give her a different nickname. So she's either killer grandma, gambling granny, or my personal favorite, losing streak Lois. That is awesome.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The name of this episode has to be Losing Streak Lois because that's fucking awesome. That's a great one.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know, but hats off to you, ma'am or sir, because that's fucking awesome. Losing Streak Lois. That's the best one by far. Granny, who cares about granny and grandma? Losing Streak Lois sounds great.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's everything all wrapped up into one. I fucking love it. Yeah, so they said that, you know, Dave, everybody's very sad about Dave. One of his friends who goes duck hunting and fishing with him said that, you know, this is... The whole town is stunned, and no one wants to say anything about Lois because nobody talks shit here because it's Minnesota.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Even if they think she killed your friend, they're like, well, I don't want to say anything about her, but let's just say— They only say that to their better half in bed when nobody can hear it while they're reading books. Let's just say that I don't have anything nice to say about her, so I'm not going to say anything at all. That's the worst you're going to get out of somebody.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
One guy said, it's been traumatic. I never saw any trouble with his wife. I just don't understand it. Maybe he just wanted to see the best in her. Like maybe there was something wrong and he didn't see it. He said there was just no sign something like this could happen. It's devastating. So where the fuck was Lois when she took off?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Well, on Friday, March 23rd, while they were finding Dave in a bathroom, shot twice, Lois was at the old Diamond Joe.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Right down the road. Check this. That's a 45-minute drive from Blooming Prairie. Down the road. This is the Diamond Joe Casino, Jimmy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Dude, this is the front. There's snow on it. It's a rusty, corrugated steel warehouse building. Literally, they turned into a- It's a farm. It's a farm. It used to be for storing wheat, and now it's fucking a casino. That's what's happening.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
All your husband's worm money down the tubes here. So she went there all the time. It's a farm-themed casino just across the Iowa border.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's a fucking defunct farm. Don't act like you built this from scratch to look like an old farm. This is just a building that you could put fucking slot machines in.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's a Wendy's themed KFC. You know how it is. No, that's just an old one. So she's there. She liked to play the slot machines in the high roller room, which are like $5 and $1 slots. That's the high roller. Keeps you away from the penny riffraff, I think, is what's going on there.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, here it comes. Here it comes. I'm winning all these nickels. And then you've got to do math. Well, 20 of them equals a dollar, so this isn't a lot of nickels, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I won 500 nickels. Great. So at 6.30 p.m., she bought a pre-made packaged sandwich from the come-and-go gas station next door.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Disgusting. Jesus Christ. Video surveillance shows her 5'5", 165 pounds, dressed in white slacks, black and white striped cardigan, unbuttoned over a purple T-shirt. Her hair was like Ric Flair bleached to the point of being white. Like, boom.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That meat that all, even the, like, you bite it and it all feels like it has skin on it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
This is gross. Yeah, nasty. So as she's buying the sandwich, she said, say, if you want to start heading south, would you just take the 35 south to keep going down to the next state? Is that the way to go, you think? And the guy said, I think so. I work at a fucking gas station. I don't go anywhere. I make $7.50 an hour. Where do you think I'm going? Here is where I go. I live out back.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I live at the Diamond Joe. They don't even know it. I shovel hay for them in the morning. She said, I think so. She said, okay, well, thank you.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
and uh yeah she was going and wow uh so the all of the criminal the dodge county sheriff's office minnesota bureau of criminal apprehension iowa division of criminal investigation they all arrive at the diamond joe the next day because they tracked lois's cell phone there yeah but she was gone by then obviously so and now her children are freaking out dad's dead mom's disappeared
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We've never seen that before, so people seem to really like it here. Let's find out. Five stars. I really like Blooming Prairie because all the people are kind, and there's a very strong sense of community. Everyone looks out for one another. It is a small town, but they have everything you need.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
What do you tell the grandkids? Oh, I know we're supposed to go to grandma's and ride the ATVs, but one's dead and one's missing. We got a lot of shit going on here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Totally. And they have no idea where Lois is. One of her sons told a cop that she hadn't even opened the Snapchat she sent her, which she shouldn't be opening Snapchats at her age anyway, but still. She shouldn't even know what that is. She should go, what's that, dear? I don't know. That's it. I know she's only in her 50s then, but still. 55 in 2018. 57 in 2018 is too old for Snapchat, period.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
April 2nd, 2018. So that was March 23rd. Wow. We're talking 10 days later here. This is Fort Myers Beach, Florida.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yes. Tess Koster. Remember Tess Koster, their friend?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, absolutely, where the steaks were going. Well, Tess is down there, and she comes down here also. She's got different places. They live in Minnesota and Florida. She's got a place down here in Fort Myers Beach, and Tess was cleaning the garage of one of the five rental units that her and her husband owned on Fort Myers Beach where they wintered. And they take their winter seriously.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's April 2nd. They're still there.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
No, no, no. Not at all. But I mean, honestly, if you're going for when it's cold in Minnesota, what do you go from like October to June? How fucking how long are you there?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's like an eight month fucking winter. So the rest of the year, they owned a car dealership in Blooming Prairie. Wow. This day, though, their daughter, Brianna, contacted them to say that a woman had called the dealership and said that she was a friend of hers and she was down in Fort Myers Beach and knew that they were down there, too, and wanted to meet up with you.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That is her alias, Stormy Liberty, which is really funny because in 2018, anybody calling themselves Stormy Anything would have had plenty of jokes to come of you were a porn star.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Everything. There's not a lot of people.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. So she ends up finding the address there. It's in a development where they own a bunch of condos, and this is 883rd Street, and Lois goes and –
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
goes and finds there and the costars were always inviting people to visit them down there so they didn't mind at all um yeah a bunch of late earlier here uh they had sat next to the to dave and lois at a wedding and said yeah you should come down to florida sometime stay with us down there so this is about 1 45 p.m on april 2nd and tess sees a woman with a white ponytail at the end of the driveway checking a notebook in her hand and then looking at the house number
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
All you're going to need for the next 100 years, everybody. Five stars. I like living here. I know everyone, and everyone knows me. All right? It is a super friendly town where if something is happening, then everyone will find out fast. Gossip, in other words. That's what that says to me. And then five stars. Amazing little town with lots to offer. There's a park, a small pool.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So Tess takes a step toward her thinking it's some lady there to inquire about one of the rentals. She says, can I help you? And the woman looked up and Tess goes, oh, it's Lois.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I know Lois. You know what I mean? So Lois seemed to recognize Tess as well. And then she ducked her head down and muttered wrong house and power walked away. Okay, so Tess watches this crazy woman walk down the street, climb into a white Escalade, and drive away. She's like, there's Lois getting into Lois' car with Minnesota license plates and everything.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Well, yeah, what the fuck, man? So she and Rod called 911 because they knew that she was being looked for. Oh, that's great. Okay. Okay. Long gone. So, yeah, they said no problem. They said they provided a couple extra patrols in the neighborhood. They said we'll send a car by every once in a while, but they're not going to stake out anything or do anything crazy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said she probably left from here and took the fucking bridge right over to the mainland and is just gone out of here. All right. So, by the way, one of the kids said the police down there did a horrible job. Because that really is a horrible job. They went, I'm sure she's gone by now, right?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. Well, it's the beach. It's a real laid-back environment. I think the cops have the beach attitude, too. That's all. They're like, yeah, she's gone now, right?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She's probably gone. I don't know. I'm going to go do some oyster shooters.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Jesus. So with some Bama fucking sorority members. So April 3rd, 2018, the next day, Fort Myers Beach, a woman named Pam Hutchison arrives. Now, Pam Hutchinson arrives in Fort Myers Beach. This is on Estero Island, I guess, Fort Myers Beach down there. There's a little island down there. In the Gulf of Mexico, April 3rd, 2018.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She is there with her longtime friend, Donna Fetro, whose husband recently committed suicide.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So what makes you feel better? Florida.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Wow. So this Donna planned to spread his ashes on an island nearby.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So now the woman who's with the dead husband, she stayed with her family on Sanibel, which is that island that they're going to dump the ashes on. And Pam Hutchinson checked into Condo 404 at the Marina Village at Snug Harbor, which is a timeshare complex. She's staying alone. Now, she is 59 years old, very similar physically to Lois. Very similar. Blonde hair. Yeah. Big smile. Outgoing.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Just got a divorce. Shit. Yeah, she was living in North Carolina here in Columbus, North Carolina, which is a small town of about a thousand people. Not much. She's known for being very outgoing. She is a car salesman. That's what she does. Salesperson. She was the top ranked car salesperson in Virginia Beach. Wow. So she's killing it here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
smaller class sizes which means more one-on-one time with your children there's even a small gym which is helpful
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That is where she made a life with her old husband, James Hutchinson. And they went boating and they would go out marlin fishing all the time. They had quite the life together. But they said her ex-husband said, though, after the divorce, she just wanted to get out of here. Small little country town, that's where she's from.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Of course, she had no desire to go back there, so she went to Florida instead. She'd been trying to buy her own place in Bradenton at the Riverview condos overlooking the Manatee River, which is a short walk from where she worked catering at an upscale restaurant on called Pier 22.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So her friends or her ex-husband said the dust had settled in her life from the divorce and she had finally found a place that was going to be hers.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
okay now they said everything was really coming together for her and that's what her friend says so she there's a lot of pictures of her down there and she's uh you know looking happy she's uh hanging out at one time she was down there at the sarasota christmas boat parade and uh you know saint patrick's day at an irish pub and you know just having a good time doing real florida shit
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She loved to fish for marlin, stay out late, and vacation in Mexico.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She's like Hunter S. Thompson or something, this lady, she sounds like. She fucking sounds cool.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She likes cool shit. Yeah, she's a partier. She's been successful, and now she wants to party a little bit here. Her friend said she's real easy to talk to, real friendly person. Her one friend said she's one of these people that she was too friendly for her own good, trusted everybody. Oh, she meets somebody for five minutes. If they seem nice, then they must be a wonderful person.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And that's her best friend. And she trusts them. And that's not good for everybody. I would say here. Um, so, uh, Hutchinson here, Pam, she gravitated to, uh, to Florida and she liked this kind of old timey Florida shit there. She liked this bar called old Florida. Oh, atmosphere and bar and kind of atmosphere there. She liked and, uh,
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
There's a park, a small pool, smaller class. I guess so. I guess the teacher gets to spend more time with their kids. I don't know. Population here, 2,074. Great. That's a tiny town. That's really little here. More females than males by a pretty decent amount, actually. Median age is just about around the national average. It's usually about 37 here. It's 36 and a half.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
sure she made friends with somebody sitting on a stool i guess he asked her to move one stool over so he could sit with his friend and this guy that she met and they started talking and she was a very nice lady he said she wanted to know about everything around it where the nice places were to go where to eat where to dance and so this guy said he told her where they had good live music and all that kind of thing and uh
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
After a while, they had mutual friends and all that kind of thing. And before long, she was joining in on pontoon boat rides. Wow. So she's very friendly. She had rented for a year in one of Bradenton's gated communities, but her ultimate goal was to own a condo. That's what she was trying to do here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She spent part of 2018 vacationing in Mexico and she sublet a room to somebody else in Florida while she did that. And, you know, she makes all sorts of friends talking away on the boats.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Talking her way on the boats. The woman she sublet a room to here in Florida said, we got along like mother and daughter. She called me mommy, mom, and I called her girly girl. How old is this fucking lady? Because she's 60. So how old are you? 90 fucking two? Yeah. You're 60. No one's mommy, mom at this point.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. Hey, listen, when I start collecting Social Security, you're Linda. That's how it works now.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We are. So they said we we jabbered and talked away half the night. They said Hutchinson made for her her famous corn chowder and introduced her to her new to all of her friends. She said we joked and laughed and had fun and we got to know each other so well in such a short period of time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So I guess this person that she rented a place to had had a timeshare down there for a long time and all that kind of shit. So Hutchinson arrived this time on April 3rd, posted on Facebook about the amazing time she was having on the beach, listening to music at Nervous Nellie's from her room.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I guess it's a bar watching the sunsets and joking she'd be returning to Bradenton on one of those fancy yachts docked next to her condo. She traveled to Fort Myers Beach. She found a condo in Bradenton she wanted to buy, too. And on Tuesday evening, she had dinner on Sanibel with her friend with the dead husband and watched the sun set.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
On Wednesday, the dead husband's wife there made a short drive to Fort Myers Beach, and they had lunch outside at a restaurant. And that evening, Hutchinson said she passed on an offer to join her friend for dinner on the other island. She said, I'm going to stay here. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I'm good on that. So while she stays here on Fort Myers Beach, she meets another lady, Pam does. She meets another middle-aged lady that looks very similar to her. And it's Lois is who she meets. They went to the Smokin' Oyster Brewery to get some food together.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yep, and Lois tells Pam that she's recently widowed, which technically is true. Yeah, yeah. They spent about three hours drinking together, and a security camera films them walking toward Pam's condo after that. She apparently, Lois stays with her at the condo that night. Oh. She offers, if you need a place to crash, come to my house. That's how nice she is. She meets a person in a bar.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
About 50-50 married, just like kind of your typical suburb type of a place. Less people are single with children. More married with children type of people here. That's the type of place this is. And the burbs out here, race of this town, 92.8% white, 0.3% black, 6.7% Hispanic, and 0.2% two or more races. So it's Minnesota. I mean, you know, outside of Minneapolis. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Has a couple of drinks with them and offers for them just to crash out at her house.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I mean, to invite someone to your house after drinking for non-sexual purposes is very trusting. Really trusting. So Pam had intended to leave on April 5th. That's a Thursday, but decided to stay another night. That evening she ate an early dinner with her new friend here. That's the night where she ate at the Smokin' Oyster. So she was supposed to leave and stayed. hangs out with Lois.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They have dinner at the Smoke and Oyster, and they're leaving. They show him sitting at the bar. Hutchinson is in a pink camo baseball cap and a white blouse, and Lois is wearing a blue T-shirt and cream-colored slacks. So they're very friendly, though, and no one is surprised at that at all.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
One of her friends said she met a lady and she said they were going to go out to eat that night and that the lady was single, too, and that's really all she said about her. That's it. She said, I met some other single lady. We're going to go out and party. So I'm not going to go, listen, depressy over here. You're going to go spread your husband's ashes.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I'm going to go hang out with another single lady. Someone who's been single a little longer. They're not quite as depressed as you.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's it. Jesus. So at 7.30, not one tear. At 7.37 p.m., Hutchinson paid for a Long Island iced tea, a watermelon margarita, a sweet tea, a Bloody Mary, and a Bahama Mama. God damn. Wow. That is a variety of all shit that gives you a headache.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But all outside the Bloody Mary, all of those are headache, like asking for a headache. Long Island iced tea is all sugar. It's all headache.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
All booze and all sugar. Watermelon margarita sounds like a headache waiting to happen to watermelon. A lot of sweet. A Bahama Mama sounds like it's 4,000% fucking sugar with rum. A Bloody Mary is the only one. That's what you'd have after all of that shit to try to feel better.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She also pays for a half pound of peel and eat shrimp, a side of chard, and a small chowder. She's living.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Hutchinson is living. That night, her friend, the ash spreader, texted Pam from the beach where her family was spreading her husband's ashes but got no reply. She said she didn't think much of it at the time. She said she knows her friend goes out and she might have had a couple of drinks and she's having fun.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's a small town in southern Minnesota. Very religious here. 72.3% of the people here are religious. Really? That's like Utah numbers. That's really high. And most of the highest here is Lutheran, of course. It's going to be Lutheran if you've seen Drop Dead Gorgeous, the girls' Lutheran gun club or whatever they had there. It's all Lutheran. All that stuff.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
This isn't fun. Come talk to me while I do some depressing shit. So Hutchinson's realtor in Braden, Julie Keene, sent her an application required by the Homeowners Association for the condo she was set to purchase as well. They traded text messages. But then this real estate lady didn't hear anything back from Hutchinson after about 7 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And the client, she said, you know, she didn't return her texts over the weekend either. So she thought Pam was having buyer's remorse and changed her mind. Basically, that's what she thought. So Friday, April 6th here. This is at 830 a.m. This is the day after the smoke and oysters at 830 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Lori Russell, who's the manager at the Marina Village where she's staying, the timeshare received a call at the front desk from Condo 404. OK, she says the caller says, oh, my gosh, I slept until 4 p.m. yesterday and then I went out and met some great people and I'm going to go boating today. And she said, is there any way I could stay for the weekend?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
and the lady agreed to work it out so she could stay for another few days, and they just put it on her credit card that she already paid for it with. So that's no problem. Shortly after 11 a.m. that same day, a woman walked up to the Wells Fargo Bank in Fort Myers Beach wearing a white fedora with a black ribbon around the rim there. She withdrew $5,000 from Hutchinson's account. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Making small talk with the seller, saying she was staying in a nearby hotel, but had just bought a house in Bradenton. Sounds just like Pam, right?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, that's not fucking Pam at all. This woman left the bank, but instead of going boating, she started driving north in Pam Hutchinson's white Acura TL. Oh, wow. She went past Bradenton, drove all the way to Ocala, which is 130 miles away from, yeah, drove all the way there, 130 miles away, and checked into a Hilton hotel that evening.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Under the name Pam Hutchinson.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Also got room service, two different room service deliveries, paying with Pam Hutchinson credit card and left the next morning. Shortly after 10.30 a.m., she used Pam Hutchinson's credit cards to make three withdrawals of $500 each at a Bank of America drive-up ATM in Ocala.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She then continued going north, eventually turning west and crossing the state line, heading for the Cushata Casino Resort off Highway 165 in the town of Kinder, which boasts the most slots in Louisiana. That's where she's headed.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She's found a woman who looked like her and fucking killed her and stole her identity.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We'll find out here. She ends up at the most slots in fucking Louisiana casino here. She wins $1,500 on a $5 play.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She uses a driver's license and social security number to collect her winnings at 135. Those both belong to Lois. It's fucking Lois.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And they found her. Um, April 7th, that's when she was at the Ocala Hilton, got room service and all that kind of shit. Um, this is fucking crazy. Now, when they're fine later on, when they're discovering this, the marshals who are looking for her said, my belief is she was like, you know what? I've got nothing to lose. I'm going to jail. Hell, I might as well enjoy myself on the ride.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's what he thinks. She can't escape. She doesn't have a passport.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The unemployment rate here is about the national average. It's pretty close. It's right around a little under 5%. Median household income here, rest of the country, it's about $69,000. Here it is $57,625. So a little bit lower than the national average, and that's not great. But cost of living is also lower. So I think it works out. Here, cost of living, $100,000 is regular. Here it's $83,000.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
There's nowhere for her to go, really. They don't know. Anyway, she won her jackpot and all that kind of thing. She's spotted at the casino there. Later that night, The Acura was spotted by a license plate reading camera in Texas. They have those now. So soon they put up a wanted poster, a $6,000 reward, multi-state billboard campaign sponsored by the U.S.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Marshal Service to find the woman they dubbed Losing Streak Lois. Help us find Losing Streak Lois.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So April 9th, 2018, Laurie Russell is checking the units at Marina Village for a possible water leak. So now this is the time when she's still supposed to be there. So Pam's supposed to be staying there. She enters room 404 and noticed that it smells not good in there at all. She figured it was sewage, which maybe was the source of the water problem. Now it's all making sense.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But something seemed very strange. So she went outside the room, found two guests, two male guests who were walking by and said, I'm a little freaked out. Would you guys mind coming in here with me?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So I'm so freaked out. I'm going to head into a dark hotel room with two strange men. That's how freaked out I am. I'm less scared of that than I am of this. Wow. That is something. So they look around in the bathroom. They find a woman lying on the floor with towels covering her up. Bathroom floor.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Short blonde hair wearing a pink camo baseball cap, white blouse, blue Levi shorts and Teva flip flops.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
A pillow, which is perforated by a bullet, is on top of her legs. The shot that killed her sliced through her lower lung, her heart's right atrium and aorta, her esophagus and her upper right lung. 22 caliber bullet, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Ended up lodged in the right cup of her bra.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
From the back. She had collapsed while her stomach and intestines filled with blood. And she's been dead for several days. Her toothbrush was in the sink. It looked like she got shot while she was brushing her teeth. Chicken shit. Chicken shit. Then she got covered with a towel. By the way, then there was a towel against the crack under the bathroom door.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Two shots with a .22, bathroom floor covered up.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Samesies. That's a thing. That is. The detectives wrote in the report a bath towel was placed on the floor outside the bathroom and shoved up against the void, creating a seal. And all of, by the way, Pam's credit cards, car keys, driver's license, gold rings, everything of any value is missing. So they found the body. They called 911. They learned that Pam Hutchinson had been staying in room 404.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And so the deputies called her ex-husband in Virginia Beach to tell him about it. They interviewed other guests at the Marina Village as well as Pam's friends. They followed her credit card trail, which led them to surveillance videos from the Smoke and Oyster, the Wells Fargo, the Ocala Hilton. And they said, same woman in all the photo, all the footage.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said, looks like looks like Pam, right age, similar hair color, comparable complexion and build. But by then the deputy said, well, this is Pam Hutchinson.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So that ain't fucking Pam Hutchinson. Because when they were watching the videos, they go, okay, here's Pam. There she is. There she's going here. So she must have been alive that day. And then finally they're like, hold on a second. She couldn't have been alive yesterday because this body's been here a couple days. So who the fuck is this? And why does she look just like Pam Hutchinson?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So a little bit lower. Median home cost here, $212,800, which is lower.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So the more video surveillance they watched, the more they saw of her. They started saying that isn't Pam Hutchinson. That's some other lady that just looks like Pam Hutchinson. What the fuck? So it even placed her in room 404 at the time of the murder. Footage stamped 746 p.m. shows them approaching the condo at 834 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Rocket Money. It's the start of a new year. It's the perfect time to get organized, set your goals, prioritize what matters most. And for me, top priority is getting myself together here. Financial wellness, doing that, which that feels important.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
A camera captured the woman walking by herself toward the building's fourth floor elevator. She stood in the landing area for 13 minutes, appearing distraught and upset and perhaps crying, then went back to the condo. Oh, my God. She was sometime between 746 and 834 is when she killed this poor lady.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The next morning, video footage captured this woman in the Marina Village parking lot backing up Hutchinson's Acura next to a Cadillac Escalade, then transferring luggage and other items from the Escalade into the sedan.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Wow. The evening before she was found murdered, a sergeant with the A sheriff's office had come across a white Cadillac Escalade with Minnesota plates at Bowditch Point on the northern tip of Fort Myers Beach. It had been abandoned. So that was she ended up dumping that, too. He ran the registration, found out it belonged to Dave. It's Dave's truck.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, it's cheap. It's nice. I mean, and it's like an hour 20 from Minneapolis. So if you really, really wanted to live here and work in Minneapolis, you could. Easy. You could. I mean, I understand in the Midwest, I don't know if that's really a desirable commute. But in a lot of places, that's nothing an hour 20.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And investigators didn't know what to make of it until they watched the surveillance video. And now they're starting to put it all together. And then they talked to Tess Koster, who had called the cops. And that kind of connected all the dots of who it is there. So they said they showed her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They called Tess down to the police station, showed her three video clips and two photos of the woman making bank withdrawals in Pam's name and said, do you recognize her? And she said, that's Lois. It's Lois Reese. I know exactly who that is.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So Pam's friends here, man, that's that's they're all bummed out. Obviously, they had planned they had plans with her and shit like that. They were like, oh, my God. Two friends of hers said they were going down to Florida. Ellen Britt Watson, her husband, said they were planning their annual trip and they planned to stop in Bradenton to have dinner with Pam. And she wasn't answering her phone.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The woman said, I kept telling my husband something's wrong. Now, you're supposed to have plans with your wife's friend.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They're not answering the phone. She's like, I know something's wrong. You're like, shut the fuck up. You're like, they're fine. What are you talking about? She's a flake.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Just because your friend's a flake, I got to worry about it now all night? No, this is crazy. So, yeah, they ended up going to a Sarasota hotel room that night. And they said, we didn't hear anything on Monday. And I kept telling my husband, you need to reach out to Pam. By Tuesday, the couple was in Key West. And finally, her husband's starting to worry, too, after three days.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It takes us three days to come around to that kind of shit. So they got off a trolley tour to get a slice of key lime pie when her husband noticed that he'd missed a phone call. They're really worried. It sounds like they're really burning the midnight oil looking for this lady.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, my God. And the wife said that I could see the change in his face literally. He just looked at me and said, Pam is dead. That's when they found out Pam was dead. So there is a massive grandma hunt going on in this thing here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I mean, if you live in New York or California or something, Florida or Atlanta, it takes you an hour 20 to get to work.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She could do this forever. She could do this fucking forever. And by the way, the test lady said that she is terrified because she says, I look a lot like Pam. She was coming to kill me first. That's what she was.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said, I know someone who looks like me down there. Oh, why else was she going there? There's no other reason for it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So obviously authorities in Florida send out a nationwide be on the lookout and everything like that. Obviously, both victims found in bathrooms covered up by convenient things and both shot twice with a 22 handgun. Afterward, both times, all of their vehicles and valuables were taken. It's right. Pretty sound M.O. here. It's wild.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And they said that this is one of the Lee County's undersheriffs said she looks like anybody's mother or grandmother, yet she's a cold blooded killer. The suspect's resources will run out and she may become very desperate and she could strike again. So watch the fuck out here. So they elevated their search for Lois to a major case in the U.S. Marshals Department here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They set up a national hotline, posted billboards in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, that wanted murder with Lois' name and photo, $5,000 reward, and then Crimestoppers put in an extra $1,000, making it $6,000. Widespread media coverage comes in, and tons of tips come from that. And they're sifting through it, but they can't find shit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Why not, right? So anyway, we've convinced you. We've already got you locked in. We know what you're doing right now. You're about to head over and find a place to live in Blooming Prairie, Minnesota.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The only thing they can find, none of the tips work out to anything. The last thing they have found of her was the Acura along Texas Highway 77 outside Refugio, south of Houston, on April 8th at 11.16 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's her. Refugio. That's her. I'm a refugio. So they figured she's headed to Mexico. So they alert the U.S. Border Patrol and Mexican authorities. They said she doesn't have a passport, but she could be trying to get in with somebody that had the ability to cross the border. And then she'll kill them there and take their identity. Take all their shit and live in Mexico or whatever.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said find somebody with a passport and assume their identity like she did with the woman in Fort Myers Beach or someone with access to a boat either. That could be her other plan.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, anything's possible. So they said that the cops were just working on this like crazy, going through anything, bills, statements, receipts, electronic devices that might be able to figure out at least maybe her mindset, something. So they said that this became personal to them. One of the cops said it became personal after they saw the devastation on Lois' two older children.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said the youngest, Braden, didn't have much to say after his appearance on Inside Edition. Bill and Bria, though, the older ones, declined to talk to the press entirely and cut short phone calls from this reporter here. But they worked closely with investigators to try to locate their mother and find out what happened. They said, this is the cop, said, they're really, really nice people.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I was highly motivated to bring this case to closure. Everybody seems nice except for Lois. So the day the body was discovered, April 9th, 2018. Yeah. South Padre Island, Texas.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
We're one step ahead of you, everybody. We have for you the Blooming Prairie, Minnesota real estate report. OK, your average two bedroom rental here goes for nine hundred ninety dollars, which is about.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
All right. Narrow strip of land in the Gulf of Mexico, the southernmost tip of Texas. And people go there to vacation, obviously. April 9th, 2018, a middle-aged woman with blonde hair checked into the island's Motel 6. She requested an out-of-the-way room and paid in cash in advance for a week's stay.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Two days later, in the early afternoon of Wednesday, April 11th, she left room 227, which just puts the 227 theme song in my head from the 80s sitcom. Fuck. Damn it. Now that's in my head for the rest of the day. Room 227 and walked across the parking lot to Padre Rita Grill for lunch.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The owner, Kathy Lafferty, described as a friendly 61-year-old woman with blonde hair, greeted her and complimented on her cute outfit and matching hat. What's your name, she says to her. The woman said, Donna. Donna. LaDonna? And she said, like, Madonna? And she said, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She goes, but I just go by Donna.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But she literally went to say Lois and was like, I can't say Lois. Look, Donna. Like a cartoon. Homer Simpson would be better at getting away with that. That's terrible. So they started hanging out, going around the island. A woman who looks just like her, her age, all that shit. This woman is introducing her to her friends. This is LaDonna, goes by Donna. Ha, ha, ha.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So she decided to stay for a little while. She said, yeah, I was going to leave, but I think I'll hang around here. This is pretty nice around here. Donna returned to the grill the next day in the evening. Every day she would come back and there's live music. So she'd come back at night and eat and do all of that. This Lafferty said she was a happy person, laughed a lot, a delightful person.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I probably would have hired her if she asked for a job. She said Donna liked to sit in the corner of the bar where she could talk to people on either side of her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She was sociable, striking up conversations with waitstaff and other customers. She'd mentioned that she'd been in Florida previously but found it overrun with old people.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said she's recently widowed, had come into money, and was looking to buy a condo. She was asking locals about property taxes and homeowners association fees and things like that. She always paid in cash from a large wad and tipped generously. So the grill staff liked her. They all thought she was cool.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
One lady, Laura Giacchino, who was a waiter there, said, I would have invited her to my house. They said that, quote, Donna flirted shamelessly with the Padres Rita's bartender, Arnie, who was several years younger than she was. He flirted back because he's a bartender and he works on tips.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But then she asked him out and he had to go, no, no, no, no. She asked him out. She was real. I fuck women half my age, not half your age.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Three hundred under the national average. That's not bad at all. Here's a four bedroom, three bath, seventeen hundred ten square foot house, which sounds great.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Not twice. It's different. So she made other friends. She met Isabel Barrero at the Motel 6. Barrero, who was 52 and lived in Alamo, had come to the island by herself for a short vacation. And yeah, she thought, that's nice. And Donna's another woman who came here by herself. That's cool. Another older lady coming out by herself. Someone to talk to.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They hit it off, had a couple drinks and sat chatting it up.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
there um donna quote unquote explained to this lady that her husband had died and this lady said she teared up as she spoke about her husband dying and this lady said she didn't ask questions she didn't want to be nosy you know whatever you want to tell me is fine over the next two days they had lunch went shopping hung out in each other's motel rooms sat on the beach donna posed for photos with her new friend oh boy
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You are wanted everywhere. You're posing for social media photos like a fucking moron. Her friend here said she wasn't shy with the camera. She wanted me to take pictures of her. Wow. Amanda Camacho, the Motel 6 clerk who checked her in, later said that she transformed from looking like an elderly lady when she arrived into someone more provocative wearing short shorts and tank tops. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
A gambling, picture a chameleon rolling dice. That would be her logo.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And be them. That's it. And just not be Lois anymore. It's easier. They said also on her stomach she had what looked like a fresh tattoo.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She lost her fucking mind, bro. Depicting a palm tree in a beachside sunset. Because that's her new life now.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Not bad. I mean, I've got some kids or something here. Yeah, there's room. But the problem is this house looks like it's an abandoned murder shed. It's terrifying looking. Yeah, the paint's peeling off. There's shit overgrown. It looks like definitely there's a body or something bad happened there. It's not. On Zillow, on the listing, they highlight the, quote, hardwood floors.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She went from a fucking Minnesota worm farm, killed her husband, and a month later she's fucking Miss Beach Life all of a sudden.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
What the fuck is going on? So how does nobody recognize her in South Padre Island?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Well, apparently this South Padre Island does not, nobody watches the news there. They don't care. Yeah. They're an island. They don't give a shit. They're here because they're to get away from the outside world. So whatever's going on off of this island really doesn't affect me any. They don't give a shit. So there's literally nobody watching the news. Nobody cares. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I mean, she is 30 miles from the Mexican border, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
she could definitely smell it i can smell it she's in texas so she can smell something april 17th 2018 she's still out here wow april 17th she's making all sorts of friend yeah friends here april 17th she meets ron mulholland at the padre rita bar restaurant there he's a 76 year old man who owns several condos on the island will he fuck her Let's find out. He stopped in for dinner at about 9 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
and sat near her at the bar. There's a younger lady. I like it. They chatted it up for about an hour at the bar before she accepts his invitation to go to the Coral Reef, which is a karaoke bar just up the road there. Oh, boy. He ends up dropping her off at her motel later that night but gave her his business card and suggested they get together again a little bit some other time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
How about that right there? Pow! I don't even have to write it down. It's bone. So more people kept befriending her all the time. Bernadette Mathis, a 65-year-old lady. She's a court reporter. She's sitting alone at the bar of Liam's Steakhouse and Oyster Bar. They struck up a conversation. After dinner, they exchanged phone numbers.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Lois texted her later that night saying, I'm bragged about my new friend. Be good and safe. I want to hang out soon. Okay. All right. And this lady said she didn't have a lot of friends outside of work, so she was happy with the prospect of making a friend.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
A lot of older people don't have friends.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They move away. Their friends move away. Their friends die. Their friends, they run out of friends. They don't have a lot of friends. They have family, but who the fuck wants to hang out with your grandkids 24-7? You want somebody your own age who gets a reference maybe that you make, you know what I mean? Shit like that. You know, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Understands your Dick Van Dyke show reference from 1963, something.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You remember when Fonzie jumped the thing. Yeah, obviously. So the next night they met again for dinner at Liam's. This lady didn't make it through her second drink, though. Normally she could put some drinks away. This is a South Texas lady here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But, man, this is a drink and a half and she is ready to pass out. Really? So she's like, this is I have never been able to not handle my alcohol like this. How strong did you make these drinks? Ha ha ha. To the bartender. The bartender wondered if someone slipped something in her drink because this is real weird behavior.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Later, this Mathis has a fuzzy recollection of how she and Lois ended up back at her house. They sat in the hot tub and Lois spent the night in the guest bedroom. There's security cameras throughout the residence, by the way, inside the house. So if Lois brought her there to kill her, she couldn't because it's all on camera. And she saw it. That's why.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The next morning, Mathis took Lois out to breakfast at the Rancho Viejo Country Club. Mathis noticed that Lois took out some pills. She had a few kinds and took one. After breakfast, Mathis drove Lois back to the Motel 6. They already made plans to meet for dinner on Friday, April 20th. She said she acted like a really nice person and I trusted her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But the hardwood floors are plywood.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Peggy Houlihan met Lois at the Motel 6 pool one day with Isabel Barrerio. How about just lay low? You're wanted for fucking two murders in two states.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
This is crazy. She's a musician planning to perform that evening at Padre Rita's open mic. Yikes. That's rough. Houlihan had her guitar with her and the three women sang some songs together. Barrerio recorded it. Lois seemed to be happy to be included in the whole situation. Yet this Houlihan, Peggy Houlihan, said something about the situation made her uncomfortable.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said that Lois was pressuring the Barrerio lady to stay on the island longer. She didn't get it. Yeah. Now, this Houlihan said she wondered if the two women might be like together, together, or if maybe that's what Lois was trying to do, was trying to hook up with this lady. She didn't know. Later that evening, Lois arrived at the Padre Rita before Berrario and joined Houlihan at her table.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, hard wood floors. Very funny farmish here. But it's plywood. It's shit. Somebody also wrote there's a door in the house where someone wrote beware of the ghost on it. Oh, boy. There's shit like growing on the front of the house. This place is terrifying. It's a terrifying horror house. If you want to make like a haunted house for Halloween or something, that'd be nice.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Um, Berrero had decided to stay an extra night, but according to Houlihan, the open mic are there. Lois seemed agitated and seemed upset that this Berrero later lady might have departed the Island without telling her. But when Berrero finally, uh, got there, Lois took her to a separate table and they ended up leaving later on the two of them without saying goodbye. Um,
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So the open mic lady here said, I didn't know until the next morning that Isabel was okay. Okay. Now, Isabel came to me to say goodbye, and she knew that she wasn't dead, so that's good. April 19, 2018, Dirty Al's. Yeah. Dirty Al's, which claims to serve the best seafood on South Padre, by the way. Okay. Because I want dirty in my name of a seafood restaurant.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, no shit. She asked to look at a menu, and a waiter chatted with her for a few minutes. Across the room, the manager, George Higginbotham, was watching, and he said, the woman looked familiar. The hair, something. He said, I have seen her before. Who is this lady? Then when she did like, apparently she has a really, really, really distinctive hair flip that she does all the time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And like all the videos, they say you can tell it's her because it's her hair flip. You can see. You're like, is that her? And then she'll do the hair flip and you go, oh, it's her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, she'd be terrible at poker. So he's watching this and he sees her do a hair flip and then it clicked. He said, CBS this morning. I saw her on the fucking news. That's where I saw her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Right. So interesting. So she gave the menu back and walked out of the restaurant. She said she didn't want to eat at a bar and Dirty Al's didn't have any seating available, only the bar. So she said, never mind. So this the manager told the staff, that's her. That's the woman who killed the lady in Florida. And they were like, get the fuck out of here. What are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
George, how many fucking blue drinks have you had already today? This is crazy. How many fish bowls you drank? Yeah. He said, it is. I'm serious. He said, go see what kind of car she gets into. Go see what kind of car. So one of the employees goes out and looks and it's a white sedan. And he goes, that's what that fucking murderer is driving. They said she's driving a white sedan. So, okay.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They call the cops. And the cops, U.S. Marshals, everybody arrives at Dirty Al's. And not to shut the place down for some kind of health code violation either, which is the surprising part. If you're just eating in that restaurant and you see the whole posse come up, you're like, oh, God, how bad is it in that kitchen? Holy shit. Oh, God. Jesus. Fucking knew it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I told you we shouldn't go to Dirty Al's. You said it was kitschy and cute. Fucking this is bullshit. So this manager, Higginbotham, told the marshals that Lois was wearing a yellow tank top and white shorts and that her car had Florida license plates. They said, do you have surveillance footage? He said, I absolutely do, but I have no idea how to retrieve it. They set it up for me.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know how to get it. Thank fuck I haven't needed it until now.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
No idea. So the marshals were like, OK, well, we'll go try to find her. And they said she was looking for a place to eat. So check the restaurants. So they do. They just look in every restaurant till they end up at the Sea Ranch restaurant right next door to Dirty Al's. And there's a white Acura parked outside with Florida license plates, so they secure the restaurant's exit.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Several marshals and local cops enter the Sea Ranch and surround Lois. They said she was sitting at her preferred location, a corner spot at the bar. One of the marshals picked up her purse and said, Lois, we're going to take you out of here and explain what's going on. Don't make a scene. In other words, they didn't...
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They didn't whip the guns out and said, you know, hands on your head right now, which to me is crazy because, you know, she has a gun. She's a murderer. And we'll use it. And they just took her purse. I guess they figured the gun was in there and they said, don't make a scene. Basically, let's not fuck up this guy's night of business here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They wrote it on the door just in case. $84,900 for this house. Wow. And I wouldn't put anything past them. Sure, there's probably a ghost doing all sorts of shit in there. That's awesome. You walk in, it's two ghosts doing it doggy style on the fucking couch. You're like, oh God. I love it. It's a weird looking house. Here's a four-bedroom, two-bath, 2,160-square-foot house.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Or in your room or something. So they said Lois complied without saying a word. And they said, that's really interesting. Because the guy said, usually a fugitive, this kind of fugitive, will either resist arrest or be like, what are you talking about? Feign ignorance and innocence of the whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She's not her. Yeah, this guy said she didn't have a single emotion on her face. Like she was waiting for it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She might as well have said, what took you so long? Like, she was that close to just saying that.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I was going to do it. So they end up, everybody comes in, the crime scene units, everything like that. They took DNA swabs from Lois, obtained warrants to search the Acura. Room 227 at the Motel 6. They found Marla Gibbs and Jack A in there. It was terrible. They found a map, a brochure from the Lucky Eagle Casino, of course.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
pill bottles, piles of clothes, including the white fedora she was seen wearing in surveillance videos when she posed as Pam Hutchinson. They found tissues, soap, and a green and white towel stolen from the Marina Village.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She's a towel soap stealer. That's hilarious. A small stash of Lifestyles Ultra Lube Plus condoms. What? She was planning on getting some action just in case. You never know. Wow, Hutchinson's Lifestyles. Hutchinson's checkbook, four credit cards, and $548 in cash. That's all she had? Yep, that's all she had left. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They found a black bag with bullets, a holster, duct tape, and rubber gloves inside. Oh, my God. Two handguns, by the way. Two, a Colt Woodsman .22 that her father gave her, and a Smith & Wesson 9mm as well.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Nope. That's what I'm saying. She had plans, dude.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She was going out. This is not fucking around here. Then they found a trophy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They found a fucking trophy. They found Pam's sunglasses wrapped in a hand towel and hidden. That's a trophy. That's not to use. Not to use them. Everything else was for utilitarian purposes. This is a trophy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
the sunglasses you sick fucking lady man um the dodge county sheriff scott rose said i think she was just waiting to be caught because she went so peacefully they said she was just sitting at the bar drinking having a good old time do you ask to down the rest of your drink before you're taken away forever i did pay for it i feel like you go let me finish this right just bang and then you got me
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So, yeah, searching her suitcase. That's what they found. All of that. And they think she obviously had someone else lined up. Bernadette Mathis here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She had dinner with her. She stayed in her guest room. She believed that she had been targeted as the potential third victim. Luckily, she was caught probably right before she was going to kill her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Which is I mean, it was probably that night she was going to kill her. So that's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, it'll burn through everything. No, especially in resort areas.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I was talking to a guy who does well for himself and all that shit, and him and his wife, he's an older guy, they go down to Key West all the time, and he said they were in Key West for, what was it, like four weeks or something, and they spent $9,000 on food. Oh, my God. $9,000. Luckily, he's a successful guy and owns a restaurant. $9,000 on food in four weeks.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He said it was more than the rental of the place on the beach. That was like $5,000 and the food was $9,000. I was like, holy shit. One, that's an expensive vacation.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And he goes, that wasn't even like we weren't eating like lobster tails every night. That was you go and eat chicken. It was forty eight dollars for a chicken breast and some rice. It's fucking crazy. These tourist spots will fucking get you down there.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Really boring, really basic. The kitchen was recently redone, you could tell. Everything else is like 2004 style in there. It's just not anything exciting. You'd say, tell me about your new house. You'd go, it's got four walls and a roof. You know, pretty dull. Nothing else to write home about here. $199,900, though. 2,160 square feet and four bedrooms for under $200,000. That's not bad.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, yeah, yeah. People don't go to those resort places.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Oh, yeah, yeah. There's those islands down there, too. Anthony Bourdain has this chapter in one of his books where he talks about going with some lady, and he loved this one guy running a restaurant just fucking rich people over. He goes, this little guy, little dirty guy, makes terrible little pieces of chicken on a barbecue, but because he's got this little spot of beach...
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
famous people kiss his ass to pay $150 for 12 cents worth of chicken. It's fucking hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah, that's how he gets away. So South Padre Island locals find out and they're like, what the fuck? Yeah. One person says, well, this is the Lafferty lady said we had no idea when she was here. She was a murderer trying to hide. You just never know people you see on the street or walk into your bar who they really are.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Fuck, man. We got to get some cable in this bitch. Anybody have the internet?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's only 2018. Jesus Christ. Yes. Ask Jeeves. I don't know. Fucking 20 years ago internet gave us. We don't care. So, yeah, people on there all freaked out. Isabel Barrero, Bernadette Mathis, Carol Lafferty, all women who she fooled and were friends with. And they're all like any of us could have been the next victim. They're all around her age, all in, you know, identity stealable range.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's fucking wild, dude. It's fucking crazy. This the Mathis lady said that she showed up for their dinner scheduled on April 20th. Didn't know she'd been arrested the day before.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
When she asked around, she learned that the woman she knew as Donna wasn't Donna. It was actually the murderer from Florida and Minnesota. She said, I feel felt very betrayed. I feel stupid that I could be so gullible. It's just scary, very scary to meet a stranger and think they're going to be your friend and they turn out to be a killer. I would say so.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The test cost her lady said she was awfully freaked out and everything like that. She said maybe the test cost her lady said maybe Lois was hoping she'd find one of the rental units empty and she could squat there. But she says, yeah, she says, I look a lot. She said, I have blonde hair, same age. She was here for a different reason. I know it's up.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said, yeah, she said, I was afraid for my life. She turned me from that small town trusting person to having a loaded gun by my bed. Whoa. That's a big switch there. So, yeah, they said that she is now very famous across the country, losing streak lowest, all this shit, which I love. People didn't understand it. People gave trusted her with their kids.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You know, it just feels like adult stuff that you have to do. And thanks to Rocket Money, my goals feel achievable now. They show me all my subscriptions in one place, help me easily cancel ones I forgot that I've been paying for, which happened to me. Absolutely happened to me. For years, I was paying for something. I was like, what is going on here?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She did daycare. They're like, what the fuck? This is crazy. And this level of violence and this level of everything is all very rare for women murderers, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Usually it's a again utilitarian a utilitarian crime or and it's even to get to what like I got to kill my husband because I want to go be with this guy or I got to kill this lady because she's trying to fuck my husband or I want to kill him for insurance.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Kill him because he's beating me. Yeah, exactly. But it's either way, killing somebody to go on a gambling spree is a very male thing to do.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
It's very odd. So I thought that was really weird. They said the cop said it's rare for women to kill at all. But when they do, it's often an exceptional event, the result of jealous rage or the need to protect themselves or something. You know, whatever. They said she didn't fit a profile because you don't have enough people to make a profile like this.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said there isn't enough of her to even make a profile of what this is. She's an outlier. She's a total outlier.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Quickly, that is from a forensic psychologist in Minnesota named Tricia Aiken said that. Now, obviously, reactions are pretty crazy. Ellen Britt Watts, who's Pam Hutchinson's cousin, said she's sympathetic with the challenges challengers face. She said she wishes things had gone differently.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
If you've got some kids and you need bedrooms for them, that's going to be a good place to do it. Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,734 square feet. This house is a goddamn shame because it's built in 1890, which means it's probably got some cool original shit that is completely stripped away 100%. Everything is gray and white and HGTV four years ago.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She said nothing against law enforcement because I know they had a real hard job, but I think they missed a big opportunity when that couple reported her being on Fort Myers Beach on April 2nd.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Not for nothing, but she said she would have been alive. She said that's ridiculous. They won't talk about it in detail, but the Lee County undersheriff said, one thing I can tell you, there was no opportunity missed. I know that. Okay. Bullshit, you fucking idiot. You're a dummy, Carmine Marcello. You're a fucking idiot.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Dude, she was on the island for days after that fucking conning and killing a person. And he said, we didn't miss anything, I'll tell you that much. There's a body because of you. Fucking liar. They literally... Tess didn't call the cops and said, there's some lady. She said, it's this lady named this, driving this, and this is what she did. And they were like, oh, she's got to be gone by now.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You guys suck, man. Holy shit. They said, obviously, she was arrested, so hopefully that'll bring some closure to the family. That's what that cop said. Maybe now they'll shut the fuck up is what he said, basically.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Wow. It's very also one of her friends, Pam Hutchinson's friends, Judy Wilder, said it wasn't a man who did it. It was a woman. This has me like blown away. Yeah. You don't expect a woman stranger to do this. That's the other thing. Women generally don't kill strangers. Yeah. And there's a lot of emotion and entrenched shit that comes out.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Yeah. It's it's fucked up, man. It's real fucked up. The the Chamber of Commerce lady from Minnesota said, when you're a small town and then somebody does something like that, it just makes you feel creepy. Then you wish you never knew who she was. It scared a lot of people. We had so much anxiety in the community until she got found. It's just weird what makes people snap.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
After she did that, we thought, oh, my gosh, what would make her do that? And she said, how can you be such a nice person and then turn into a monster? True. So did gambling make her do it? That's what they're wondering.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I don't know what the fuck it is. And they said that the only most similar case they can find to this is Donna Blanton, who in 2003 shot her husband of six months, who was a Virginia state trooper with his own 380 pistol after they argued about her gambling debt. But that's not to gamble more. Right. That was just to get out of the getting caught for that. So that doesn't make sense.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said it's far more likely for problem gamblers to be violent toward themselves.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said one in five have seriously contemplated or attempted suicide, according to the National Council on Problem Gambling. They said one reason we think there's a higher suicide rate is that people with a gambling problem have fewer options, less help and less understanding because they've already burned all their bridges by the time they get to that point.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They said we don't want the image of the gambling addict to be a homicidal maniac. These are folks who face a lot of shame and stigma. I don't think they face any stigma anymore unless it's from your own family. Nobody cares what you do.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
But don't worry. Kevin Hart will still be on television telling you to keep doing it. Keep doing it.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Just do that because the NFL hates gambling. That's why they play those commercials. They say a number of our patients have co-occurring disorders. It's not a singular dimension illness, talking about gambling. And so they said that this often clusters in families and things like depression, anxiety, bipolar, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And they said her mother probably had some kind of problem because she was a hoarder. And her mother was eventually committed to a state hospital for the mentally ill as well. So that's two in the family. That's two. And Kim, obviously, we talked about her. And then we'll talk about her sister. Cindy also had an incident. We'll talk about that in a second.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She in court, she goes to make her initial thing and she pleads not guilty. Her initial appearance pleads not guilty. Lois and says she has been taking medication for a mental condition. Okay. She said. So they don't know. Who knows? They said, could it be possible that she just started having a mental condition in the last few years?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They have gray laminate floors, those fake wood floors they have. That house probably has amazing original hardwood floors, and they're like, let's put laminate over it. Probably. We don't want to buff anything, so let's do that. Oh, they're not into buffing. They're into that. So that house, $289,900. And that's a redone kind of new house. So that's only 1,700 square feet.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I guess only 10 percent of bipolar cases occur in people over the age of 50. So usually if you're not bipolar by 50, you're not going to be type of thing. They said all these pieces together give you a lot more confidence that there was an acute manic psychotic episode. That's a guy who is a forensic clinical neuropsychologist who has examined 700 murder cases named John Fabian.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
OK, now, March of 2019, she's waiting for court. Her sister, Cindy, that's Cindy with two E's, by the way, Cindy. Cindy's at her house about 10 miles southeast of Rochester, Minnesota, arguing with her 37 year old drunk son who is currently drunk. He he shoved her. Cindy and her husband kicked her out, kicked or kicked him out. So you got to leave.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Shortly after, she found him lying in the driveway and told him to go get the car so she could take him somewhere. I'm going to take you to go get the car. I'm going to take you somewhere. This is crazy. He refused. So she went and got in her 2004 Ford Explorer and ran him over.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
In her own driveway, her own son on purpose.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He suffered a badly fractured pelvis and head injuries. When a deputy asked if Cindy meant to run over her son, she said, and I quote, you bet.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She was charged with second and third degree assault, criminal vehicular operation, and domestic assault. The morning of August 5th, 2019, she quarreled with her probation officer. Uh-huh.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That afternoon, she went to a hardware store in Rochester and purchased a clothesline, then drove to Quarry Hill Park near where she and Lois grew up, walked through the woods to a pedestrian bridge spanning a deep ravine, and hanged herself.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So this family has got issues. No shit. There are some mental health issues going on here. Clearly the one sister went completely, you know, balls out wacky when she got a divorce. This one, this is a lot. This is a lot. What's going on with them. So why the fuck did Lois do this? Okay.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Um, there is a, all we have is theories, but there is a forensic psychologist here named David Thomas who theorizes that when she snapped, she was broke and fiending, uh, which you normally hear for drug addicts, but it can also be applied to gambling addicts.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
He says, when you get into serious financial trouble like that and there's no way out, at some point your significant other's got to go, you know what, there's nothing more I can do for you, so you're left out on your own. The husband says, nope, I ain't going to do it anymore. You've messed up my business. You're stealing my money.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
If I lose my business, I have nothing left, so I'm cutting you off. And now she's on her own, and she's like, I can't control this, so I'm going to do what I need to do. And that's what she does because she's desperate. That's his thought is that she gets cut off. But still, why would you kill? That's way over the top. December 2019, Lois goes to court. And they want to try her.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She's being tried first in Florida because that's where they have her. And they're saying, you're going to get the death penalty, little lady. And she says, well, can I make a deal? So to avoid the death penalty, they allow her to make a deal. And that's all she's going to get is guaranteed is no death penalty.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She is going to admit to shooting Pam Hutchinson with a firearm and plead guilty to first-degree murder. Also pleads guilty to grand theft of a motor vehicle and other property criminal use of a personal identification information of a deceased individual. She does not provide a statement but answers the court's questions. And they said, I will adjudicate you guilty.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
There isn't a lot of big houses here. There's not a lot of mansions in this area.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
You, losing streak Lois, may fuck off life in prison without parole. Mm-hmm. And orders her to pay $38,556 in attorney's fees and other expenses. Which she's like, I'll go double or nothing. Hold on. They're like, no, this is the problem. No.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I'll play you for it. So August 2020, she has to go for Dave's murder now up in Minnesota here. Her court appointed public defender worked out a deal with the attorney general's office here. She'll plead guilty to first degree murder of her husband. And the judge tells Lois that because this is during covid. Right. She says, remove your mask and let me hear your responses here.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Then there's a bunch of questions that we'll talk about here in a second. She said she was satisfied with her defense, was thinking clearly, was unaffected by medication she took for arthritis and high cholesterol. By the way, no mention of antidepressants or any other medication to treat mental illnesses, like she said before. And she said she was pleading guilty because she was indeed guilty.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
I feel like that's why everybody gets along maybe in this town. Maybe everybody gets along because there's not like those rich assholes in that neighborhood. They don't have that. It's just everybody has some. You know what I mean? Everybody has a little. Yeah. No one's starving. No one is fucking driving around a Ferrari. Everybody kind of feels like they're in the same socioeconomic area.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
And so anyway, then the judge gets to ask shit. They asked her, how and why did you do this? Why did you kill Dave? She said after she and Dave on March 11th, that's the Sunday she and Dave had attended their grandson's basketball game in Wisconsin. So they did do that. Yeah. Lois wanted to stay with her family, but Dave wanted to leave. They left and argued on the drive home.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
They continued to argue in their bedroom, according to Lois. And then Dave, she says, took a loaded handgun out of the dresser, offered it to her and said, quote, Why don't you just kill yourself? Maybe you'll get it right this time.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
That's what I'm saying. He told the other, I mean, he might have just fucking lost it and said, here. Instead, she said she took the gun, aimed it at his chest, and fired twice.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Well, no, he fired once and then he probably spun to get away and hit him in the back.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So that actually sounds right. That could have happened. So they said, did you know Dave was dead? And she said, yes. They said, what did you do then? And she said, I laid down with him.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
The judge said, what was that? Pardon?
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
So it was on purpose. The family in attendance did not react at all to this, but they made their feelings known during impact statements here. This is a social worker read the first one on behalf of Dave's elderly mother who couldn't come herself. When you killed David, you took my heart. David was this family's ray of sunshine. I will never forgive you.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Said that she's just such a cold-blooded murderer. She could satisfy her gambling addiction and that she left him laying dead while she partied and gambled just like before. Yeah. Lewis's firstborn, Bill, that's her son, approached the podium. He said, you stole something from us. We'll never get back. I'll never be able to forgive you.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
Then he said, to the hurt you've caused my kids, your grandkids, God, they loved you so much. Loved. That's painful. Then her daughter was the last to speak. And she said, losing my dad at the hands of my mom is something I'll never be able to process. If I could go back in time to make sure my mom got the help she needed and never killed my dad, those are thoughts that constantly haunt me. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#561 - Losing Streak Lois - Blooming Prairie, Minnesota
She's got it because right now she just looks like a cold-blooded psychopath. She's got to say something. She says, quote, what I did is an unpardonable crime. Solitude is forever. I feel I deserve this. I will have no reprieve. My life without David is my sentence, my penance. Our children are loving, caring, strong people. It's because of David's strengths that they are the way they are.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This would be his dream would be to be this guy. Like, I'm sure he was looking at him with like wide eyed admiration the whole time this was happening. So we'll talk about all that and more. First of all, head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. Get your tickets to live shows.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's got how many bodies more are out there that we haven't found? Yeah. So he also faced a legal dilemma in Missouri where prosecutors were actively pursuing additional murder charges based on the evidence discovered in that state as well. His attorneys opposed his extradition because Missouri is far more aggressive in the actual case. doling out of capital punishment.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Like Kansas, you'll get sentenced to death, but they won't kill you. Whereas Missouri, they kill people. So they said that Kansas has yet to execute anyone since reinstating the death penalty statute at the time. However, the Missouri prosecutor insisted a condition of any plea bargain that Robinson lead authorities to the bodies of Lisa Stasi, Paula Godfrey, and Catherine Clampett.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, there's definitely a dip here. Festival patrons may sample the dips and vote for their favorite. A winner will be chosen for the cold spinach dip and hot spinach dip categories.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Since doing so would have constituted a tacit admission of guilt and which could have been used against him in Kansas. He said no. So but the prosecutor faced pressure to make a deal because his case was not really that airtight. So they were like, just we don't even have bodies.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So among the issues, there's no unequivocal evidence that any of the murders had actually been committed within the jurisdiction, which is number one. What you have to prove is was a corpus delecti or whatever the fuck. So when it came, when and where that they're dead and they're here, when it became clear that the woman's remains would never be found without Robinson's cooperation.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
A compromise was reached in a carefully scripted plea deal in October 2003. He acknowledged that Koster had enough evidence to convict him of capital murder for the deaths of Godfrey, Clampett, Bonner, and the Fates. Though his statement was technically a guilty plea, it was accepted as such by the Missouri court. It was notably devoid of any contrition or specific acceptance of responsibility.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You know what she cited? Incompatibility and irreconcilable differences. My husband's a serial killer, because that should be a fucking slut.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Holy shit. 2006, Lisa Stassi's daughter, Heather Robinson, Heather Tiffany, filed a civil suit against Truman Medical Center in Kansas City and social worker Karen Gaddis, contending that Gaddis told John Robinson about Stassi and her newborn daughter in 1984 after he told her he was looking for women for a fictional home for unwed mothers and... of, quote, white babies.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
In 2007, Heather and the hospital reached a settlement for an undisclosed sum, which Robinson said she would split with her biological grandmother, Patricia Sylvester. Holy shit. So she ended up getting paid for that anyway. But, I mean, she grew up in an undisclosed amount. Tons of books and shows about this guy. Tons of books and shows. I mean, he's obviously a creepy sex person.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, people are interested. They're curious about what's going on.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They either get hard or get fascinated how other people get hard doing this.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
2014, Windows on Death Row, which is a cartoon thing where they're basically publishing cartoons that people on Death Row draw.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He writes a letter. It's fucking ridiculous, man. He said 2,500 plus cartoons drawn over the past 12 years included his information about two books, Journey of Hope, a 302-page book of articles, poems, short stories, and humor that takes the reader crazy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Congealed weird shit. Yeah, that's not as good.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
into death row and allows them to feel the full scale of loss and emotions of those on death row the second book common sense thoughts on the christian lifestyle 160 page book which contains 24 lessons written specifically for prisoners at the request of a prison ministry is he out of his fucking mind here are his cartoons that he drew they're not bad unfortunately oh no that's great
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It says, 71 years old, 11 years in this 10-by-7-foot cell in solitary confinement, no human contact, delay after delay of my appeal. I think that might just justify a little depression. And there's a rat down there that goes, hey, I'm still your buddy. Got anything to eat? So that's what's going on here. There's all of them. God shows a sense of humor in the end. That's him. He drew a picture.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So winners receive a green ribbon, of course, instead of the blue ribbon.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He makes himself like a like a just a golf guy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Here's him. You know, political statements. America's prison industrial complex with the dollar on there. A judge. Yeah, the judge found he's got a fair trial. A rat and a weasel. Low life scams, Inc., it says.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
rat and a weasel very nice they're complaining about people that write to prisoners and then sell the letters they get back that's what they're doing that the rat says that's pretty disgusting even by my standards yeah never forget i was a death row prisoner too jesus How many women did Jesus stuff in fucking metal barrels, Jimmy? Do you remember what that said in the Bible about how many?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You know. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here is, it's not bad here. Property crime is about one quarter below the national average. So a little bit low and then- violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about half the national average.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I don't remember the exact number. Then he's Rush Limbaugh here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, he's got a Rush Limbaugh thing, and he apparently doesn't like Rush Limbaugh. So he appeals in 2015 on a bunch of bullshit. It's mainly legal maneuverings, but they're like, get the fuck out of here. People wore roll out the barrels of evidence T-shirts outside the courtroom. He was complaining about that. So he's currently an El Dorado correctional facility. He's over 80 years old.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's almost 82 years old, and he's still alive sitting on death row. He's still doing it. He's still there. He's still alive, still on death row.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It's crazy. By the way, a lot of information, and this is very specific information, came from, because a lot of it is in a lot of locations, but some came from serial killer J.R. Robinson's sinister alter ego, an article in Vanity Fair by David McClintock. I want to give that author credit because he did interviews and did a lot of work on that shit. So thank you for that. 81 years old.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep, he's there. Going to be 82 in December on the 27th. My God. That is Lenexa, Kansas, everybody. Got to buzz through the end here. Please, please, I hope you liked it. If you did, tell everyone about it. Get on whatever app you're on. Give us five stars. Shut up and give me murder.com. Tickets to everything. Virtual live show, 419. It's the 420 virtual live show.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They're doing it on the 19th. You can watch it anytime for two weeks after that. Watch it 100 times, buy it, whatever, costumes, this, that, anywhere in the world with Internet. Also, get your tickets for regular live shows, Chicago in May. You're up next, baby. Well, St. Louis is up next, but they've already sold out. You've got to catch up to St. Louis, Chicago. Let's do this shit.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Do that for the rest of the year. They're selling out quick. Shut up and give me murder.com. Follow on social media at Small Town Murder on Facebook or on Instagram at Small Town Pod on Facebook. Follow us on either of those. Hang out with us there. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. All your bonus material. Anybody, $5 a month or above.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You get everything, including old stuff, new stuff, new ones every other week. This week, what you're going to get for Crime and Sports, more sports songs for that bonus, which is hilarious. Then for Small Town Murder, a scheming, scamming New York guinea from the 80s. Louis Carlucci, known as Con Juan. We're going to talk about him. Big time con man going around.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
altered egos and different fucking names and everything else. He's crazy. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out. Oh, you bet. Which is right fucking now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever, ever tie our tits and box knots and stuff us into metal barrels. Hit me with them right now.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So a pretty damn safe little town going on here, I would say. That said, let's talk about some absolute horrors that happened around here and all around the area. Wow. Okay. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about a guy here. And this case, a lot of other shows have covered this. It's one of those...
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Well, Ken, happy birthday either way.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Is it Ick? Well, his mother, her name was Donna Gross, so she changed it anyway. She was like, I'll take Ick over Gross.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I don't know what it is either.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The gins are coming out of the woodwork for you today, Jim. It's a real nightmare. They're burning you up, bud.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yes, you know my love of Perkins.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
he's a serial killer so a lot of people have covered his stuff but and I've had this guy on the list since about 2017 when we started this fucking thing he was one of the first people I put on the list and somehow haven't done it I don't know how it never happened it was always like oh we'll get to that guy we'll get to that guy and then a lot of other people did it but we're going to do it because we're going to put our spin on it and also you know not only that there's no spin to put on it we're just going to talk about it in a different way than other people do it in our way
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It really does. Sister Maria Teresa Beal.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
All that you do for us. We can't tell you how much we appreciate it. Keep joining us week after week. You want to follow us on social media, shut up and give me murder.com drop down menus. You can follow us there. Keep hanging out with us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So let's talk about John Edward Robinson III. He is. He'll go by senior later on, but he's the third.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, because he'll have a kid and name him after himself, and then he's a junior, and now he's a senior even though he was a third before.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I don't know. junior now we're starting over starting over uh he's born december 27th 1943 he is from cicero illinois so that's a colorful town cicero it's you know especially back then it's known for its mob ties and everything like that um he is the third of five children so right smack in the middle Middle child, probably the quiet one, and he's going to turn into this.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
His parents are Alberta and Henry Robinson, so he wasn't named after his dad. The third came from somewhere else. Dad was drunk, like all the time.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
First of all, get your ticket to the virtual live show because that's our next live show anywhere you are in the world with an Internet connection. It is just like a regular live show, except you're in your living room. And we are going to be doing the same thing with the screen and the jokes and the story. It's the 420 virtual live show, April the 19th. It's available for two weeks after that.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
A drunk and drunk, both. A drunk drunk. A drunk drunk, which, I mean, back then, who the fuck knows if he was in World War II or he was from the Depression or if he worked in a field or something. I mean, you know, anything could happen here. Mom was not around a lot. She was absent from what I heard, but she was the one who doled out the discipline, but then she wasn't there a lot. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It's kind of feast or famine when it comes to that. Mom's home. She's in charge of everything. If mom's not home, you run wild. So it's either locked down completely or do whatever the fuck you want, which is a weird, real weird thing for a kid to have, I would imagine here. Now, in 1955, when he's, you know, what, eight years old or I'm sorry, shit, seven, 13 years old, he joins the Boy Scouts.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And he joined the Boy Scouts. He was sponsored by the Holy Name Society of Mary Queen of Heaven Roman Catholic Church. That's a long, a lot of name. Quite the handle you got there. Doesn't really roll off the tongue. So the fall of 1957, he was accepted into the Quigley Preparatory Seminary. This is a five-year course for young men who plan to become priests later.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So he gets into this when he's 14 and he's supposed to be 19, come out of it and go into the priesthood.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
At 14. It's a weird thing. There's a lot of people like this that start there and end up murderers for some reason. We cover this all the time. And it's a certain age. Like if they have this like I want to be a priest or a pastor or something at like 14 or 15, it seems to me that they turn out weird later.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's what seems to they seem to turn out weird later than the religion isn't a part of them later either. That's the other thing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Real weird. So November 1957, he was named an Eagle Scout.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So, yeah, that's a big deal, the Eagle Scout. By my house, the fire department puts up the names of the new Eagle Scouts as they happen.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Congrats to, it'll just be like, you know, little Billy Johnson for he's our newest Eagle Scout. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, way to go. You're going to learn how to tie knots, but not around anybody because they won't be anybody else around. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, a little bit of something, a little bit of recognition. He was like, you're all beneath me. I'm an Eagle Scout. I'll never get laid. So late November 1957, as an Eagle Scout, he travels to London to sing for the Queen of England.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It's a big Boy Scout thing. There's 120 Boy Scouts they send over. Judy Garland is there with them as well, hanging out with Dorothy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So get your tickets now. I am going to have some crazy smoking apparatuses to show Jimmy and force him to smoke out of. So it's going to be a lot of fun. We can't wait. Then get your tickets to regular live shows as well. The next ones are in May, St. Louis and Chicago. St. Louis, I think, is sold out. So Chicago is your best bet. Unbelievable. You guys are great.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Oh, shit, she lived for another 30 fucking years.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The 50s? Yeah, she was around until the 80s, I think. Didn't she die in the 80s or something, I thought? Maybe not. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I don't know she's Michael Jackson's favorite person's mom right Liza Liza's mom yeah yeah yeah she was a mess Judy Garland she had a that's a harrowing fucking childhood when you hear what happened to her you're like she was basically just given to a studio they're like here you go just drug her and make her diet and
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Don't send her back to the farm, please. Yeah. So he was the youngest American ever to appear at the home of London vaudeville. He led 120 Boy Scouts onto the stage of the Palladium Theater for a Royal Command performance. Then Judy Garland came up and gave him a kiss. Got a kiss from Dorothy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Then Britain's Gracie Fields, who was a very famous lady, came and hugged him and talked to him, and then he bowed to Queen Elizabeth.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He met Judy Garland in her dressing room before the show and said, we Americans got to stick together. And she said, you're right about that. And he said, I wasn't scared, but I was surprised. All right. How much circumstance there is to the whole thing. He also told the actress Gracie Fields that he planned to study for the priesthood in Chicago. So he's over there hanging out with.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I mean, this is a. Quite the thing. No one when I was a teenager ever sent me to another country to sing for royalty. It just never happened. So apparently he can sing, too. He's a member during high school, a member of the Cardinals Cathedral Choristers, which is a group that sang at Sunday Mass at Chicago's Holy Name Cathedral.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's a big one. He's one of the top child church singers in the country.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's crushing it. And it's Catholic shit, so he can sing Latin hymns like nobody. He really busts it out. At the Quigley Preparatory Seminary, he's a shit student, though. So he wants to be a priest, and he looks all perfect from the outside, but
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's like an apple that looks fine, and then you go to touch it, and the skin is there, but it's just liquid inside. And you touch it, and it's just blah, turns to shit.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's what he is, but the skin looks fine. That's John here, who'll go by J.R. a lot, by the way. John Robinson. J.R. Yeah, and then that could be Junior either, but not Junior, J.R. It was also a discipline problem at the preparatory seminary. As you know, priests are known to be brawlers first. That's what they do.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You get in there, you go, you love God? Yeah, you want to serve him? Yeah. How's your right hand? It's not bad. All right, come on in. You're good. Priest Fight Club is something I want to watch. I'll watch that movie, Priest Fight Club. He got into squabbles and shoving matches with classmates and spent a lot of time in detention. He ends up leaving Quigley after his freshman year.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
All the shows for the rest of the year are selling very fast. A few are already sold out. So if you would like to go, you need to get them right now. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. As well as you should listen to Crime and Sports and Your Stupid Opinions, our other two shows. Crime and Sports. We're in the middle of a long Evil Can Evil series, which is insane.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So, so much for that, apparently. He finished his high school at a regular high school. And then in 1961, he enrolled at Morton Junior College in Cicero to train to become a medical x-ray tech. So that's a good job. It's a good steady job. And people need x-rays.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. Yeah. Totally different. He he wanted to become a doctor. Now he decided I'm going to do this.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. I don't know. Should I talk to God or be God? Which one?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Which one should I be? So he ends up dropping out after two years, though, because, you know, and this guy said he was going to be a doctor. You're going to go to medical school and then residency.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He couldn't fucking finish x-ray tech school, which I'm sure is hard, but it's probably not as hard as becoming a full fledged doctor. That's probably a lot of work, I would think. So he drops out of there and we'll talk about what he does with that. But in 1964, he moves to Kansas City from Chicago area and marries a girl named Nancy Jo Lynch.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Nancy will be his wife for a shocking amount of time, a shocking amount of time. Like when I finally say what happens in their marriage, you're going to go, she was still around. What the fuck? Holy shit. What took her so long? So 1965, he gets his first job as an x-ray tech. Okay. But the problem is he never finished training in tech school.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He didn't say he didn't finish.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, he just lied. He was hired by Children's Mercy and General Hospital. Nice. At least it's nobody important that's going to get fucked up by this. It's just injured children, that's all. This is terrible, man.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
No problem. He displayed fake diplomas and fake recommendation letters from Morton.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
From the school. He told them he needed a night job while he attended medical school during the day because he's going to become a doctor. So, wow. He was fired after they figured out that not only did he not have a diploma or anything, he had no fucking idea what he was doing. It's not like he knew how to do it and was like, I just don't want to go to school. He didn't know how to do it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's it. So around this time, Nancy gives birth to their first child, and of course, he's John Jr. This ego is going to say, that kid's named after me. Yeah. During this time, he's totally unfaithful to Nancy this entire time, by the way. Every job he has, he's fucking every woman in it. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm sure he was fucking half the hospital staff and everything else.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Vince McMahon just entered the picture, so you want to check that out. And then you want to get Patreon.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He would go out to bars after work and hang out all night while Nancy took care of the kids, which was semi-normal, actually, back then for guys to do that. Yeah. But known to have many girlfriends, not just like one night stands here or there. He's got like girlfriends on the side. He thinks he's a gangster or something, this guy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, he's a failed x-ray tech and he thinks he's a gangster. So in 1966, he's hired by Dr. Wallace Graham as an x-ray tech at the Fountain Plaza X-ray Lab.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material anybody five dollars a month or above you are going to get first of all hundreds of back episodes you've never heard and then new ones every other week one crime in sports and one small town murder this week for crime in sports we are going to do part two of sports songs athletes singing songs we have chris weber rapping more of manny pacquiao doing whatever the hell he was doing
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Okay, Robinson, again, still doesn't know how to do x-rays, but he's very good at stealing. He's really good at that. Is he hot? He's a charmer, boy. He's a salesman and a fucking charmer. That's what he is. That's what I mean. He's the opposite of Haddon Clark from a couple weeks ago, who was like a weird recluse homeless man. This guy is the opposite of that. This is who BTK would dream to be.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Just dream about it. So what he does, he steals and embezzles from this man, drains the practice's bank account within six months. Just takes everything. Also engaged in several sexual encounters with not only the entire office staff, but several patients as well.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Man, he is plowing every beehive hairdo in this joint. It's 66. What the fuck? This is crazy shit. He even bragged to the doctor's 15-year-old son. that he was leading a double life and he had sex with all these women. He told the son that he liked to go to a club that what he's called male transvestites went to. That's a cool club. He likes to go to that club. 1969, he's arrested.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And that is for embezzling $33,000 from the practice.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, that's a lot of fucking money.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's like 300 grand now. Like, yeah, you're going to jail for that shit. Or you're at least getting arrested. He was convicted of theft and was sentenced to, you sir may certainly fuck off, three years of probation. Hmm. Because it's his first offense. He hasn't done anything. So, you know, he said, oh, man, I got carried away. So 1970, he gets a job with Mobile Oil Corp. So mobile. Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's arrested again for his work on this job after he stole 6200 stamps. Stamps are non traceable, something you can sell. Yeah. I mean, granted, they were like eight cents a piece back then. But still, if you have enough of them, 6200 of them is a lot. So he made a deal with the court to pay restitution and the charge was dropped to a misdemeanor.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's very good at getting out of shit, too, because he seems very upstanding. And people who don't spend a lot of time with him or look that deep into him just go, well, I mean, he's got a tie on. It's tied well. And, you know, he seems fine. Seems like a good guy. So then he starts selling insurance, which is perfect for this guy. Perfect, you know, gig for him. He finds work with R.B.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Jones Company selling insurance, moves his family back to Chicago for this, which, of course, of course, breaches the conditions of his three year probation.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It's going to be a lot of fun. Then for Small Town Murder, we have an amazing, crazy con man, a guy from New York City from the 1980s named Louis Carlucci, otherwise known as Con Juan or the Con Man Casanova. Who had like multiple wives and like he had all this crazy stuff going on in the 80s and no one knew who he really was.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
But he just doesn't tell his probation officer. So it's fine.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. You know how it goes. But the probation officer is going to find out about it soon because in 1971, first of all, he's crushing the insurance game. Does great. He's full of shit, this guy. He's a great salesman. Good point, yeah. And he's a really good scammer and things like that, so he's great at selling insurance, much like Evel Knievel was great at selling insurance.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He was great at it because he's full of shit. He's a salesman. But he, of course, couldn't stop himself from stealing. He embezzled $5,586.36 from the company. That's a lot of money. That's plenty, yeah. He, of course, was given a break by the court again. There's a pattern forming, I would say. He's got to be hot. He's not hot at all. He's later on referred to as a Pillsbury Doughboy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Not hot. No. Looks have nothing to do with this. He looks upstanding. He knows how to be like, I was going to be a priest, and he's full of shit. The case was dropped, and the Jackson County Court was reported to and ordered Robinson back to Kansas, where the judge really gave it to him good, extended his three-year probation for some time. Take that. More probation. Sometime.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That you won't pay attention to. Right. Around this time, Nancy gives birth to twins. What? Terrific. Yeah, these are fraternal twins, Christopher and Christine. Really? Really? Yeah. No, not Chris and Chris, the twins. That's horrible.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It feels like that's like a, you're just, oh, God, what a shitty thing to do to people. Chris and Chris. Ugh. Poor kids, man. Not just for their names, for the rest of what happens, but they move into a bigger house in Missouri at that time as well. He'll end up having four kids with his wife altogether here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. He then starts a new business. God damn it. Let's get this going. Why not? If you're full of shit, be all the way full of shit. Be an entrepreneur. So he decides to start his own medical consulting business.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He doesn't have a degree in anything. He has half of x-ray school completed. He's going to be a medical consultant. He calls the business Professional Services Association, Inc. Might as well be called Generic Company Name Corp. Professional Services Association, Inc. He gets a job here at the University of Kansas.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He is hired by the U of Kansas Medical Center as a business consultant for its family practice department. He has no, he doesn't know shit about medical business.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Two groups of doctors at the University of Kansas Medical School hired him to manage their financial affairs. The doctor who talked to him, talked to Robinson later, said, quote, he made a very good impression, well-dressed, nice-looking, seemed to know a lot, very glib, good speaker.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He had like aliases and he was like this weird phantom ghost who just extracted money from people. It's hilarious. We'll talk about that and more. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. That said, disclaimer. This is a comedy show, everybody. Now, that doesn't mean the story isn't true. Sadly, every detail of the stories are insanely true.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Hair in place, clean tie, full of shit. Back then you could rule the fucking world if you combed your hair tie to tie and could speak half decent. You could rule the fucking world in the 70s and 60s and really every up until the Internet. Yeah. Now you can be an awkward stammering 12 year old and have fucking 700 million followers. That's a different thing now.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Then get booked. Well, they get booked where we want, but they'll fucking sell more tickets probably.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Where we can't. Oh, you mean like a basketball arena?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. Not where we can't get booked, where we can't sell out. Yeah, where we can't sell. That would be a tough one. So the doctors dismissed him after only a few months because of irregularities in his handling of their finances because he doesn't know how to do that. At all. It's not his thing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
No, no. So he was sending letters to potential investors in his company portraying a growing, healthy company, even though there's nothing. One letter suggested that Marion Laboratories, founded by Ewing M. Kaufman, the guy who owns the Royals baseball team, Kaufman Stadium is named after, was negotiating to purchase his company from him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Never happened, obviously, because it has nothing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep. The doctor said they ended up letting him go because they were suspicious of him after he requested the corporation's checkbook. They were like, let's not give him our checkbook. So December 10th, 1975, a federal grand jury in Missouri returns a four count indictment for securities fraud, mail fraud and falsely misrepresenting his company PSA.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
One thing that's illegal to do is mislead investors. You're not allowed to fucking do that at all.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That is fraud if you do that because it's money. And that includes people, potential investors or people who've already invested. You're not allowed to lie to them. That's an instant crime there. So May of 1976, he pleads no contest to interstate securities fraud. And he is given, oh, let's see how harsh this sentence is. You, sir, may fuck off. Fine.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Twenty five hundred dollars and three more years probation.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And he keeps doing the same thing over and fucking over again and getting worse and worse and worse. Yeah. It's not even like I could see if it was different shit that he was doing. You go, well, I don't know. We never did that before. But this is the same thing over and over. It's obviously what he does. He's a thief. More than anything.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So over the next few years, they're going to move into a new house that we'll talk about. He is going to become a scout master. He's an Eagle Scout, so why not? Coaches a T-ball team. Jesus, that's terrifying when you find out later what he's all about. Refereed school volleyball games between the girls. Bought two horses.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Became a Sunday school teacher at the Presbyterian Church, even though he's Catholic. I guess it's the same story and dressed up. He was the neighborhood Santa Claus as well.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So, yeah, at this point, they have the dog. I have a dog, kids, a couple of horses. They got all sorts of shit going on. So he's Santa Claus. He's Santa Claus. He has all the trappings of an upstanding a Sunday school teacher sports youth sports referee of an upstanding orange slices in hand. Kind of a guy right here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He forms a new company after that, since his old one was, you know, got him a federal indictment. It's called Hydro Grow, G-R-O. He gets a family he knows to invest $25,000 in it, which they're never going to fucking see again, obviously. This company is supposed to produce hydroponic vegetables. That's what they're trying to do here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And that is back in the 70s.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's the crazy thing about these murders is there's no need to make anything up. It's all insane. And you might go, well, how does that make it? How's that funny? Well, there's a lot of stuff that's funny. Obviously, the murder itself isn't funny. There's nothing funny about dismembering somebody and stuffing them into your crawl space. That's not really funny.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I mean, they were, I guess, back then. He's trying. At least it's an idea. Anyway, a theory. He produced a 64-page booklet. Oh. Fun with Home Hobby Hydroponics, it's called. In the book, it says, we hope that as you read this book, you will form an acquaintance with John Robinson as a sensitive and stimulating human being. Through a pamphlet. That's going to be hard.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They said that he's one of the nation's pioneers in indoor home hydroponics and a sought-after lecturer, consultant, and author. None of those things are true. He doesn't produce carrot one from this fucking venture. Nothing. This is just full of shit to get money from people. He needs a company. Yeah. He needs a company to be able to get people to invest in a company.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He can't just say, give me money. He has to say, I got an idea.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
No, no. Yeah. Well, he would be. That's perfect for that, I guess. Seed money. Yeah. So in 1977, that's when they buy this new house. It's a nine room house on four acres. It's a big house, a nice neighborhood called Pleasant Valley Farms. It's very nice. It stretches west into Kansas from the Missouri border. It was one of the richest counties in the United States. This was somehow.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
At the time. They called it, the magazine called it 480 square miles of sleek suburban affluence. Look at that. This is Lenexa and Olathe is there and all that shit. So the people of Johnson County felt like they were better than the people on the trash Missouri side. It's fucking Missourians over there. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They said it's they said that when you crossed over to Kansas, the light seemed brighter, the landscape less dingy. The Kansans were richer, smarter, nicer and gentler. That's what everybody thought. So they said it has vistas across rolling hills, this neighborhood, which they found the only hills in Kansas. We've been through. We've been through. It's not much there.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You can see pretty much the whole state from wherever you are in the state. They say strands, stands of elm and maple trees, bridal path and lake stocked with fish. Oh, boy. That sounds nice. It's only an hour away from Kansas City, too. Yeah. Their new home is four levels. They have two big stone fireplaces. They have a horse stable and corral.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Not bad, man. New neighbors thought he was intelligent and conversed knowledgeably about international finance and business matters at local picnics. He'd be telling people about shit.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
World affairs. A very worldly intelligent guy, they look at him. So he also helps run the neighborhood, the HOA. You feeling kinship to him now, Jimmy? A little bit. I love when I'm on the phone with you or I'm at your fucking house and you get phone calls from HOA people about HOA problems. I'm like, what are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
But to sit and go, well, if I buy enough air fresheners, nobody will smell the body that I stuffed into my crawl space. I can get away with it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Why are you listening to these people? Tell them to fuck yourselves. Put up a fucking fence around your house and don't worry about their bullshit. The guy that you were talking to last time?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's out. Oh, my God. I don't blame him. That sounded like a crazy problem he was having over the speakerphone. So he worked in his yard a lot. He installed a rail fence and a pond. His children, John, at this point was about 14 years old. Kimberly, 12, is the second kid. And then the twins, who were eight, are all very well-behaved, good-looking, clean, polished kids here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
John Jr. would help his father with work around the property. Chris and Chrissy took care of the dog. Jesus, Chris and Chrissy. Come on, man. Took care of the dogs and cats and of their neighbors. When their neighbors would go out of town, they get hired to go feed the dog. So it's very nice here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Also, somehow he bullshits his way onto the board of directors of a local handicapped services organization. Wow. You just do it, man. If you're full of shit enough back then and no one could Google you, they just had to believe you back then. That's all it was.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
that's funny you know that's undeniably funny so that's where that comes from what we don't do is we never make fun of the victims or the victims families why james because we're assholes but we're not scumbags there you see how that works it's very good so if you think that if crew crime true crime true crime and comedy should never go together maybe we're not for you but if you you know want to hear a crazy story i think we are for you and i think you want to hear this and uh
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I mean, yeah, but it's so funny. We have the most information ever, but yet people are the dumbest they've ever been. They know the least amount of history. They know the least amount of everything, even though they have all that information there.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I mean, at the same time, she got off on that obvious fucking bullshit. Yeah, that's crazy. So maybe she's the greatest legal advocate in the world. You never know. No, fuck her.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow, yeah. Well, if I got off, I can get anybody off because, wow, was I guilty, allegedly. So his first act on the board was to order stationery for the group. Which with he forged letters from the executive director to the mayor and from the mayor to other civic leaders, inviting them to an awards luncheon honoring an anonymous recipient of the man of the year award that didn't even exist.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This week in Lenexa, Kansas, a vicious serial killer uses lies and promises of jobs to lure women into his horrifying trap of murder and strange perversions. Welcome to Small Town Murders. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
OK. The winner turns out to be surprise, surprise. Robinson J.R. here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Absolutely. This is from the Kansas City Times newspaper on December 8th, 1977. Group for Disabled Honors Area Man. The article reported that John Robinson, president of Hydro Grow Inc., has been named Man of the Year for his work with the handicap. He just started. All he did was order stationery.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He headed the board of a, quote, sheltered workshop which employed disabled people, the newspaper said. The award, a proclamation signed by the mayor of Kansas City, the whole deal.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So two weeks later, after this grand triumph, the newspaper reported that it was revealed that Robinson had orchestrated the award himself through a complex sequence of fake letters of recommendation that he had sent to City Hall. Wow. The Kansas City star that afternoon here revealed the ruse in a story headlined Man of the Year ploy backfires on quote unquote honoree. That is fucking hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, that he made himself the nonexistent man of the year and orchestrated this whole horseshit. And as the neighbors got to know him, they noticed that he's kind of a twat. They don't really like this guy. He's kind of a dick. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
One of the neighbors here, Margaret Adams, who's a gardener all the time, like big into her garden, recalls that she once asked him to demonstrate his hydroponic system. She said, yeah, show me what you got. I'm into it. He said, sure, and he was pleasant until she told him that she felt his price for the system was a little too high. Seems like you're charging a little too much.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He told her, quote, you've wasted my time, you're small potatoes, and then walked away.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, I don't need you. Your ass is too fat. Go away. I don't like you. It's fat and lumpy. Leave me alone. He got into almost a fist fight that had to be broken up by other neighbors over a dog that was barking. What?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He also didn't want to be a part of the Neighborhood Association anymore, accusing it in a formal letter of being, quote, invalid because, in his opinion, it failed to enforce some of its rules. Yeah. Invalid? Yeah, invalid. It's a bullshit. If you're not going to enforce all the rules, it invalidates the whole organization.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So he also, another neighbor said he was cocky and arrogant and you needed to walk on eggs around him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You felt like you were, not you needed to walk on eggs. You felt like you were walking on egg shells is how that goes.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You needed. Walk on some eggs. Needed to walk on eggs. I've never heard it put that way. So meanwhile, he is terrible. He takes shit care of his animals. His horses are half starved to death all the time. His dog's in bad shape and he's beating the shit out of Nancy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, he's fucking throwing them at people. He's beating the crap out of his wife. Neighbors occasionally heard him yelling at his wife and children and ordering them around like he was in the military. The children would follow his orders. The children, though, later on, they'll become all good kids, by the way. Really? Yeah, so that's helpful. Nancy must have been a decent mother here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Nancy ends up beginning divorce proceedings at this point. Don't worry. It's not over. They have some counseling and then she's back in.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Either way, no complaining later. That said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody. Let's all clear the lungs here and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do this. We are going to Lenexa, Kansas. Lenexa, L-E-N-E-X-A. Lenexa, which sounds like a brand of a printer from the 90s. Oh, I got a Lenexa bubble jet Lenexa.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
March 1979. He is discharged from federal probation with an excellent report from his probation officer, obviously. He became the employee relations manager at Guy's Food, which is a subsidiary of Borden, from what I understand, what I found out here. It's a grocery store or a food distributor type of deal. He had an affair with a secretary. Hell yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And then she helped him embezzle thousands of dollars by inventing fake employees and cashing their checks.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. This secretary was in charge of adding new people to payroll and stuff like that. So he fucked her and had her add new non-existent people to payroll so he could steal.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. He must fuck amazing, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Incredible. Like, man, he's slinging some fucking sword here. So the losses total more than $40,000, part of which he spent on an apartment where he conducted sexual liaisons with two women who worked for Borden, the company, too.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
To fuck more women in the company to hopefully be able to steal more money.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This guy. One of the women here in her interrogation said, John kind of swept me off my feet. He treated me like a queen. He always had money to take me to nice restaurants and hotels. So I figured I would get involved with a criminal enterprise with him. That's what I mean. Slinging dick.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Has to be. December 30th, 1980, he's fired from Guy's Food and charged with felony theft, submitting false vouchers and forged checks. He has to pay back over $41,000 in restitution.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Jesus Christ, dude. He's just one scam after another. Fall of 1981, he pleads guilty to a Class C felony of stealing a $6,000 check and spent 60 days in jail. Starting in May of 82. This is the first fucking time anybody's put this guy in jail at all.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, and it's been 15 years of constant scamming. 60 days. Jesus. So summer of 1982, he's got a new company. He's back, baby. It's called Equa Plus. It's a consulting company. In other words, bullshit. Bullshit. He also begins sexually propositioning many of the women in the neighborhood, which gets him into several physical fights with some of their husbands in the neighborhood.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Someone tries to fuck your wife and they live three houses away. You're going to go knock on the goddamn door. Hey, my wife said you grabbed her ass. What are we doing here?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You heard? That's a problem. Yeah. How'd you like to step out in the front yard and talk about this? So, wow. Fall of 1982, Irv Blattner enters the picture. He becomes a partner in not only crime, but Equifax. What is it? Equi-whatever the hell it is.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Equifax. Equi-bullshit. It doesn't matter. Equi-plus is what it's called.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They start a sister company called Equa 2, the number two.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, it's a sequel. The well, really fucking fond after sequel. Everyone wanted it. So May 1984, Irv Blatner leads Robinson here to a woman who wants a divorce. Not from anyone they know, just she wants a divorce. Robinson poses as an attorney for
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
he hears this lady wants a divorce so his thing is I'll pretend to be the attorney and get her to pay me money so he promised to get her a divorce if she paid him $200 and gave him her car because she didn't have a lot of money she said okay gave him $200 and her car and obviously he did nothing for her because he's not a fucking lawyer he didn't even go get the papers from the courthouse and at least you know try to get the ball right he did nothing he just took her car and her money
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So 1984, Paula Godfrey enters the picture here. She's 19 years old, and John hires her to work as a sales rep for his quote-unquote company, EquiPlus or Equi2. He picked her up from her parents' home in September to go to the airport, and she was never seen again. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The last that her parents saw, she was getting in the car with him, and then poof, thin air. Okay. Now, summer 1984. Think about it. Summer of 84, everybody. It's like season one of Stranger Things. You got the Olympics are going on. You got Gary Coleman and Punky Brewster have a hold on a whole nation's hearts. And this happens at the same time.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Robinson rents a duplex in the name of the company, Equa II, and turns it into a brothel. Okay. Yeah, we got to talk about all of this now. Let's get into what his sexual proclivities are because they are... Fucking wild. I didn't want this to be about his sexual proclivities completely because he's also a scam artist and a criminal like that.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It's real good. Yeah, like a dandruff shampoo. Got some flakes there, Jimmy. You should really try some Lenexa.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
But he hires Linda Stevens Jones to run the brothel and find other girls to join. Okay. The brothel specializes in rough S&M sex. That's what this is about. You come there to get the shit kicked out of you.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yes. That's what he's into. Big time into BDSM stuff. And I'm talking hardcore, though. He's really into it. He'd become he also became a leading member of a secret S&M cult called the International Council of Masters. OK, now we've met dudes like this and they're fucking weird. They're fucking weird.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And we've met some of the young ladies who were... We had a listener that was a... She'd come to our shows and she'd be on a leash and shit. And we were just very uncomfortable with the whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Because it seemed... She was very young and he was older and it just seemed abusive to me. But it's voluntary and she was an adult. So it's like my circuits were all crossed as far as... Help this girl and none of my fucking business because, you know, hey, this is America. You can fuck who you want the way you want. You're an adult. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You know what I'm saying? But you just want to go, come, please. I'll help you. We'll help you. We'll get you in like an Uber and you can just drive away.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
yeah where's your god please so um anyway the he was the cult's a slave master and that's that'll be by the way his screen name for everything later will be slave master oh yeah that's his that's his nickname the slave master and wow um he was them and he would it was his job to bring people to to bring a victim to meetings to be you know beaten and tortured and Who knows what else?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I think it's going to be good for you. It encourages growth. It promotes growth. It's in northeastern Kansas. It's about 20 minutes to Kansas City. It's a suburb outside of KC. About three and a half hours to Kingman, Kansas, which is our last Kansas episode, which was called Dead With No Head. Which, I don't know, I usually don't rhyme in the titles, but apparently I went with a rhyme that time.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So January 9th, 1985, Lisa Stasi enters the picture. S-T-A-S-I or Stacey. She used to be Lisa Eldridge, but she got married here. She began dating Carl Stasi in June of 83, married Carl in June of 80, August of 84 while she was pregnant. She gave birth to a child named Tiffany in September of 1984 at Truman Medical Center in Kansas City. After Tiffany's birth, the marriage fell apart.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Carl, her husband and the kid's dad, re-enlisted in the Navy. That's a real, I'm getting the fuck out of here. He reported for duty at Great Lakes Naval Base outside Chicago in early January 1985. So it's around this time that she begins dating. Around the time she began dating. She's not dating Robinson now. We'll get into that.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
But at the time where she started dating her husband, who's now in the Navy... Robinson was doing something, too. He was trying to figure out an opportunity for adoption for his younger brother, Donald, and Donald's wife, Helen, who lived in Chicago. I guess they had medical problems. They couldn't conceive.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So at a family reunion in 1983, Donald and Helen, his brother and his wife, told John that they were pursuing private adoption. John, I'm sure seeing some form of scam here, said he knew an adoption attorney and he would handle the process for his brother. I'll take care of everything for you. Don't worry about it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So in the fall of 84, Robinson told Donald and Helen that a baby would be available in October. Baby coming up. We got an opening for a baby popping up here. So Robinson here, John told his brother to send him a twenty five hundred dollar cashier's check payable to Robinson's business. Equit to allegedly twenty five hundred to cover adoption related fees.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He said he needed because he has to shell it out. Then later on, John just tells his brother that that the birth mother decided not to put the kid up for adoption after all. So never mind. That's all gone.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So November of 84, Robinson contacted Karen Gaddis, who is a social worker at Truman Medical Center, and told her that he and several Johnson County businessmen had developed a program to provide housing, transportation, daycare and job training for young mothers and their babies. Babies need job training.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, they don't even know how to do an x-ray. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Teach you how to shit your pants. So Robinson said he needed referrals of Caucasian women, the way he put it, because the program already had...
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
african-american participants and it needed racial balance is what he said too many too many black people wear some white ladies so he said he was looking for a white woman in her teens or early 20s who had a newborn child and was struggling or disadvantaged and had no no family support or ties you know you know somebody that could disappear and nobody would miss you know what i mean somebody like that take your baby
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow, so that is fucking wild. January 1985, he tells Gattis another organization, Hope House, had referred a young lady to his program, and he had placed her at a motel in Kansas. Okay, that is Lisa Stassi and her then four-month-old baby Tiffany. He told her his name was John Osborne, different name, and that's one of his aliases, and promised her a job in Chicago.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And after picking Lisa and Tiffany up at the home of Lisa's sister, actually put her up in a local hotel. Oh, yeah. So family members saw her, saw Lisa and Tiffany in early January 1985. Carl's sister, Kathy, babysat Tiffany all the time.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
No, good episode, though. I know that. This is in Johnson County. Area code 913. And their motto, I really hope they didn't pay a company to come up with this when they were branding. I hope not. Quote, I like Lenexa. That's it. I like Lenexa.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So on January 8th, Stassi dropped Tiffany off at her sister-in-law's house here and told her that she had met a man named John Osborne who was going to help her get a job and finish her GED. She said she might even get to travel as part of the job training program.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. So then January 9th, she returned to her sister-in-law's house to pick up Tiffany. And when Lisa arrived, when she arrived, she said she told her sister-in-law that John Osborne had paid for her to stay in a room at the Roadway Inn in Overland Park. Class. Roadway Inn. Come on.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
At about 2 p.m. that day, Stassi called the front desk at the roadway in and gave the hotel receptionist her sister-in-law's phone number in case this guy calls. Said, hey, if John Osborne calls, tell him I'm at this number. All right. Osborne, quote unquote, then called the sister-in-law's number soon after and got directions to her home.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I guess it was a big snowstorm going on, but he showed up anyway at about 3 p.m., And Lisa and Tiffany went with him, leaving her car parked outside her sister-in-law's home. Less than an hour later, Lisa called her sister-in-law to tell her that she had arrived safely at the motel. And, you know, I'll pick up my car tomorrow or something. Everything's fine.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Never heard from either one of them again, Tiffany or Lisa. And she never returned for a car or anything. And later on, the sister-in-law would identify the man she knew as John Osborne to be, obviously, John Robinson. So the next day after that, she calls her mother-in-law. Lisa does. So she drove away. That's the last time they saw her. But they heard from her the next day.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
4.30 p.m., she called her mother-in-law, Betty Stassi, in a panic, crying and hysterical. Lisa was saying to her mother-in-law that, quote, they. They are claiming that you, Betty, plan to take Tiffany away from me because I'm an unfit mother. And she's crying and hysterical. Betty told her, I don't know what they are saying. First of all, it's not true. And who the fuck are they? Who is it?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Who are you talking about? Yeah. So then Lisa said they wanted her to sign four blank sheets of paper. I would say not. Betty Stassi told her, do not sign anything. And right after she said that, Lisa said, oh, here they come, and then hung up. And that's the last anyone ever heard of her. Disappeared off the face of the earth.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
No clue. Here they come. The phone disconnected. A few days later, Betty, the mother-in-law, receives a letter supposedly written by Lisa, and it was typewritten and signed Lisa at the bottom and said that Lisa had left town to start a new life with Tiffany. Don't look for me. Goodbye.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Is it because Eisenhower is from Kansas and... I like Ike. I like Ike was his slogan. Is that why they're doing it, you think? Probably, yeah. Maybe. A little bit of history of this town here. Twelve years before it was even platted, James Butler Hickok, you might know him as Wild Bill.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
By the way, it's a typewritten letter, and Betty said that Lisa, quote, didn't know how to type. Well, she figured it out today. I mean, it's not – maybe not fast, but if you press a J, a J will pop up. It's not that hard to figure out. It's pretty – You don't press the J and it turns into a Q. That would be – you'd have to know how to do that, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So, obviously, out of complete coincidence – John then calls his brother, the one looking for a baby, at around this same time and says to come to Kansas. This is the same day that Lisa's saying they stuff. He says, hey, come to Kansas City because I found you a baby girl. Oh, got you covered, bro.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep. This is crazy, man. So I guess Nancy, who is his wife here, John's wife, said in early January 95, this day, the day of the terrible snowstorm, John brought a baby to their home. John said the baby's name was Tiffany, and he received her through a private adoption for his brother. A private. So they were just like, here, pass this baby on to your brother.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
We don't even want to meet the people.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Matter of fact, just take the baby.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. So Robinson called Donald and Helen and told them a baby's available right now. He said the birth mother had decided against adoption after delivery, but the family didn't support her decision, so she left the baby at a shelter and killed herself. Oh, my God. So this was the original baby they were supposed to get, but it didn't work out. But now, dead mother, here's your baby.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So Donald and Helen flew to Kansas City on January 10th. Robinson picked them up at the airport in the late afternoon and drove them to the offices of ECWA II. And they signed legal paperwork, including a petition for adoption. After signing the documents, Donald gave John a $3,000 cashier's check payable to Doug Wood, the lawyer he told him about, allegedly for further adoption expenses.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Donald and Helen named the baby Heather Tiffany Robinson. So now she's kept her with that, but gave her Heather. So they returned next day. They went back to Chicago with their new baby girl. Might as well. That same morning, the sister-in-law, Lisa Stassi's sister-in-law, called the roadway in and learned that Lisa's room had been reserved under a name other than John Osborne.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So on January 11th, the sister-in-law files a missing persons report with the Overland Police Department. Robinson's name obviously comes up in the investigation, and on February 1st, 1985, detectives interview him, and he told them he was starting a charitable organization to provide young mothers job, training, food, and housing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wild Bill Hickok staked a claim on 160 acres at what is now the corner of 83rd Street and Clare Road. No shit. Wild Bill found this. The claim was filed in 1857, and it was not far from the Kansas River and was 20 miles southwest of Westport, Missouri, which was the start of the Santa Fe Trail. In 1858, Hickok was elected as one of the first four constables of nearby Monticello Township.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He admitted that, yes, he did place Lisa at the roadway and as part of that program. He said, however... He said Lisa had recently come to his office to give him the motel key. He said she thanked me for the assistance and said she had made other arrangements. That's all she said. Robinson said that Lisa and Tiffany left with a young white man in an older model green car.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's all she that's all he knows. One week later, he tells a similar story to his Missouri parole and probation officer, Steve Hames. He'll come up now and then, by the way, Hames. Robinson told Hames he placed Ozzie at the roadway inn, but this lease came to his business on January 10th with a man named Bill and said they planned to start a new life together in Colorado.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
To corroborate his story, he paid someone he knows named Cora Holmes $800 in exchange for her false statement to police. At Robinson's direction, Holmes told the police that she had recently babysat Tiffany and learned Lisa had left for Arkansas with a man named Bill Summers.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
In July 1985, Donald and Helen, his brother's wife, received a package from Robinson containing final adoption paperwork, including a petition for adoption, decree of adoption, birth certificate, and other documents. The petition appeared to be signed by attorney Douglas Wood, who had handled over 100 adoptions in his career.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The decree appeared to contain the signature, though, so it was fine. He had represented Robinson in other matters, and Robinson had access to other examples of Wood's signature. The decree also appeared to be signed by Judge Michael H. Farley, but Judge Farley said the decree was fraudulent and his signature was forged.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow. Also, the petition and decree appeared to be notarized by Evie Gresham, who had been in a BDSM relationship with Robinson for years now. She never saw the documents. Her name was misspelled, and she was never a notary public. He just picked someone's name out of his ass and said, they're the notary. Done.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Never. Nope. He also had directed her to sign numerous blank papers during their relationship as well. Okay. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Now, his probation officer, Stephen Hames, he took a call in Missouri. I guess someone called him, and he was being supervised by a Kansas probation officer as well. He pulled Robinson's file and perused his criminal record. He checked with the Kansas probation officer who had no problems with him, with Robinson.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So Hames sent a letter to Robinson ordering him to report to the Missouri probation office on January 17th, 85. He didn't show up. So he sent him another letter, another letter registered this time, ordering his appearance on the 24th.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He also contacted, Hames does by telephone here, Kansas City Field Office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a supervisor who he had worked with in the past to ask them, are you investigating Robinson or were you aware of any baby selling rings operating in the Kansas City area? They said no and no.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
But they said the supervisor of the office said that the bureau was, quote, aware of John Robinson, but they weren't investigating actively. So Robinson comes to Hames' office promptly at 1 p.m. 5'9", 200 pounds. Hames said he reminded him of the Pillsbury Doughboy dressed nicely.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He said he was friendly and deferential and had an answer for about everything and had met with – he said, yes, he met with Birthright, which is an organization that places people – As part of an effort by several of his business associates to, quote, help the community, no, he had not told Birthright that the Presbyterian Church was behind the effort.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He said, the Birthright people just misunderstood me. They had asked him what church he attended, and he told them. That's all. He didn't say they were backing me. Robinson volunteers. He also met with social workers from the Truman Medical Center, and they had placed two young women in an apartment that he had rented on Troost Avenue.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Hames was welcome to visit the apartment and speak with the residents. And he said, you know, I'm not doing anything shady. So Hames called an Overland Park detective who said they had found no evidence of wrongdoing in the Stassi case and they weren't pursuing it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
We're done with it. Yeah, there's people came in and she said she left and I don't know. So the detective did mention, however, that a second young woman who had worked for Robinson, Paula Godfrey, remember her, had been reported missing a few months earlier.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So here's reviews. Five stars. I like Lenexa. Okay. We've been told. This may be the city's motto, but it holds true for everyone I've spoken to that lives in Lenexa. She's doing a door-to-door survey on this, canvassing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The detective recounted the letter the police had received purportedly purportedly from Godfrey saying she was OK and didn't want to see her family.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, which is what the Amazon review killer did. Yeah. The police.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Any leave me alone letter, they're probably murdered unless you had beef with them to begin with. Right. So the police said, we're not pursuing that case either. We have no evidence of anything. So Steve Hames, though, was like, I don't know, this guy's shady. The probation officer's thinking here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He said he learned from Lisa Stassi's relatives that he learned that Robinson had had her sign four blank sheets of stationery. Two letters arriving shortly after she disappeared look suspicious. They didn't sound like Lisa and they were typed. We know that she can't type. So the probation officer asked John Robinson where Lisa Stassi was.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Robinson claims she had run off to Colorado with a guy named Bill again. So Hames is like, I don't know about this. He said, this guy's a con man. It's very possible that he turned into a murderer of vulnerable young women here. So he called the FBI supervisor again and he said, you might have to take a look at this. He said, we've got two women and a baby missing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
We've got Robinson crossing state lines. So the supervisor said, all right, let's assign two agents to it and take a look. So over the next few weeks, a couple of agents here began looking at him and looking at everything here. They discovered Robinson was involved in a shitload of ongoing criminal activities in the Kansas City underworld here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They said Robinson and fellow ex-convict Irv Blattner, remember him, were under investigation by the U.S. Secret Service for forging the signature on and cashing a government check. Jesus. Hames and the FBI learned as well that the investigation in Johnson County, Kansas, where the district attorney was building a case that Robinson Company Equa II had defrauded Backcare Systems, another company.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So the thing is, he looks so upstanding.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Constantly, but he's just like this middle-aged, you know, got a tie on, his hair's combed neatly. It's what it's all about. And they said he seemed to be a good father and husband. He built a soccer goal for his family in the yard so his son could practice at home. Yeah, like he's a good guy. He goes to his daughter's flute recitals and band concerts. He referees school volleyball games.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They like he's a successful businessman. He's always talking about new ventures. He's a great guy. He's also not that this doesn't make you a great guy, but he's also hardcore into this BDSM underworld.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It's not just he's like him and his wife got some toys. This is like he's finding strange young women and taking them in. And there's a whole different thing going on here. He saw BDSM as a way to make money. Oh, which most people think just coming hard is enough. But he's like, no, no, no. I need to make money off this, too. Isn't coming enough for people?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
From the food to the beautiful nature, Lenexa is a place no one will ever forget.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I don't know about that. I think you think. Yeah, I think he likes he likes inflicting pain. That's what turns him on. OK, that's his thing from what we'll find out later on. Apparently, he was organizing a ring of prostitutes for customers interested in S&M and using a male stripper known as Eminem to find women for him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep, Eminem. He's just Eminem. He's just masochism and masochism. That's him. Everybody calls him JR. None of the investigative trails led to Lisa Stassi or Paula Godfrey, though. But they were like, he's definitely doing some shady shit, though. So Hames orders him to come in for another visit. And he says, quote, why is everyone making such a big deal when I'm only trying to help people?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Robinson says, he says, by the way, Lisa Stassi has been found. She's okay. Tiffany, the baby, everybody's fine. So quit breaking fucking balls there. He claimed he had heard from a local woman for whom Stassi recently had babysat. And she said that she and Tiffany were definitely in the Kansas city area.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Um, but an FBI agent and an overland park detective spoke to the woman in question who he said, told him the story and, And she admitted the story of Stassi babysitting for her was false. And, yeah, so Robinson had asked her to tell the lie if police asked her.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I guess so. Two stars. I hate the weather here. It's always either too hot or too cold, humid, and always very windy. The temperature always fluctuates during the seasons and the day. It could be snowing one day in May, and the next day it'll be 70 degrees. That sounds like the Midwest in the spring. Colorado's the same way. It's the same shit.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. He said, if they ask you, tell you this. They said, why are you doing this for him? And she said, because she owed him money. And he had photographed her nude as a prospective prostitute. Uh-oh. So the FBI decides to send out a female agent to contact him and pose as a prostitute looking for work. So she was wired up and the agent met Robinson for lunch at a restaurant.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He told her his clients were mainly lawyers, doctors, and judges and that she could earn $2,000 to $3,000 a week or a weekend traveling to Denver or Dallas to service them or $1,000 a night in the Kansas City area.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You got to go there. He did tell her, though, as this job entails, you're going to have to undergo a lot of pain. This isn't just a regular prostitution gig. These people don't want to have sex with you. They're going to want to fuck with you, such as having your nipples crunched with pliers. You got to like that, he's telling her.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So the FBI hears a recording of the conversation and decided against proceeding with the undercover effort for the time out of fear for this woman's safety. The agent. They were like, we don't trust this fucking guy. He's going to kill us.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Fuck, so she's going to come back with mashed nipples to the FBI. March 19th, 1985, Irv Blattner, the partner, cooperates with the Secret Service.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, he's in deep shit, and he's an ex-con, and he didn't want to go back to prison, so he... cooperates with the Secret Service to sign a statement implicating John Robinson's position in a number of illegal activities to get him arrested for probation violations. So, yeah, this is an exchange for lenient treatment in the government check forgery investigation.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The FBI advised Truman Medical Center to remove its two young women from Robinson's Troost Avenue apartment, but to give Robinson a plausible excuse. So these women are in danger. Get him the fuck out. They don't exist, these women. But he told them that. So they're like, if that's true, do that.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So March 21st, 1985, he comes in for his probation officer meeting and arrested in his probation officer's office there. But he's out on bail pretty quick. Really?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Oh, absolutely. It's just check shit, and they don't have anything on. He's under suspicion of women disappearing, but they don't have anything on that. So April 1985, Teresa Williams, 21 years old. He meets her and lets her move into the brothel and becomes his personal prostitute.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This is his gal here. She's attractive, 21 years old. She's from Boise, Idaho. She's been working odd jobs around Kansas City and looking for a main job here. Robinson took her to a hotel room where he photographed her nude. And offered her a position as his, quote, mistress. This is a job. A job that would involve sexual services, not only for him, but for others as well.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He would put her up in an apartment and pay all her expenses, plus prostitution fees, and he would supply her with weed and amphetamines.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And she said, wow, no other fucking job offer is going to be like that. So, sure.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They said no, they wouldn't give me amphetamines is the problem. They dug their heels in. They said no meth. You can show up stoned, but we're not giving you meth. And we were like, oh, okay. So the night of April 30th, 1985, J.R. here gives Williams $1,200 in cash, got her a fancy dress, all, you know, tits out and everything.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Told her to wait in a park across the street from the Troost Avenue apartment. A limousine picked her up. Uh-huh. The driver blindfolded her and took her to a mansion somewhere in the Kansas City area. This fucking happened. This is like some weird Eyes Wide Shut shit going on now.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
People in this town, 56,755. It's grown a good amount in the last 20 years, a lot, which is after our story took place. There's more males than females here, which is odd. It's a strange thing. Slightly, but more. The median age here, it's so average. The median age is 38.3. In the nation, it's 38.4. So they're right on. Right there. It's a very kind of a lot of married families and shit here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She was given to a distinguished-looking 60-ish gray-haired man who was called, quote, the judge.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You know he was a judge, too, probably.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He had her disrobe and then started stretching her on a medieval torture rack.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This is the judge, yeah. Oh, boy. She screamed and told him to let her leave, and she was blindfolded again and returned to the apartment. So the guy said, okay. A few days later, she was forced to return the $1,200. John said, give me that fucking money back.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yes. Then, at the same time, he found out that not only is she not doing her... her gigs quote, you know, whatever. She's also entertaining a boyfriend over at the apartment. She's got a man that Robinson isn't even getting any money for. So he's pissed off. Very pissed off.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So he comes over one day, and early on a Saturday morning in late May of 85, let himself in, had his own keys, went into the apartment, a two-bedroom unit on the third floor. Teresa Williams is there. She was asleep, but he barged into the bedroom. And this is fucking wild. Grabbed her by the hair, pulled her over a knee, and started spanking her. He said, you've been a real bad girl.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You need to learn a lesson. Okay. She was like, what the fuck? She started screaming, so he threw her on the floor and pulled a revolver out of a shoulder holster and pointed it at her. He said, if you don't shut up, I'll blow your brains out. He put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger and it was empty. He's fucking with her. No bullets. So she's now cowering and crying, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And that's ridiculous. He then this is crazy shit here. He then slid the gun down her torso and put it inside of her.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And said, quote, I bet you've never had a blowout.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Dude, she's pleaded, don't do that, please, please. So he took the gun out, put it back in the holster and left the apartment. That was it. He was there for five fucking minutes, did that. Yeah. She didn't know what the fuck to do, so she just sat there. That's it. He went home because he had to be home in time to attend his teenage son's soccer game that Saturday afternoon.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
With a gun and threatening to murder her. Yeah, he went from that to the soccer game. Come on, buddy. Good job. Good effort.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So they made up, though. She forgave him. And he promised to take her on a trip to the Virgin Islands in mid-June. We're going to go on a trip. So the FBI gets involved here again. Two agents talk to her. We've talked to Teresa about this whole thing. And at first, she told the agents a cover story saying she worked for Equit2 and was being trained in data processing. It's one way to put it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They said, listen, we have reason to believe that Robinson had been involved in the disappearance of at least two young women. So now she started to cry and they were like, come on, get it out. So she said, OK, he assaulted me with his gun and he's going to take me to the Virgin Islands.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And the other thing she said was at his insistence, she has been fabricating a diary accusing his friend Irv Blattner of committing various crimes and of threatening her life.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So she's writing a regular diary, like went to McDonald's, talked to my mom, did that, and then the next page is like, Irv Blattner is doing all this stuff and threatening my life because he wants Irv to get in trouble, so that means he's in less trouble because Irv can't be believed about what he says about John. So...
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
John seemed to have sensed that the police were going to use Blattner to implicate him, and he wanted this fake diary. So they're questioning Williams. As they're questioning her in her fucking apartment, they hear a key in the door. Two FBI agents. Front door opens. There's Robinson.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Oh, shit. So the agents said, they identify themselves, and they hold up the diary and ask if it's his handwriting, and he says it is. Yeah. So the agents frisk him for weapons. He has none. He said he was in a hurry and then just left the apartment. There's nothing they could do to hold him there. They have no reason to hold him or anything like that. But that's even more suspect.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
58% married. It's 50-50 in the rest of the country. Race in this town, 79.7% white, 5.3% black, 3.8% Asian, and 8.4% Hispanic. Religious, 56% religious in this area, too. Oh, that's steep, isn't it? And the most are Catholics somehow. I don't know how. 19.5, we snuck in there, I guess. Yeah, that's odd.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So after he left, they insisted on moving this young lady, Williams, to another location to be kept secret from Robinson. Because they thought maybe her life was in danger because she had also been asked to sign blank sheets of stationery. Like, that's a bad sign.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So they also, the FBI agents, talked to the probation officer, Hames, who helped interrogate Robinson, then filed a formal report with Missouri courts. that had jurisdiction over his probation. Hames alleged that Robinson had violated the terms of his probation by carrying a gun, supplying drugs to Teresa Williams, and lying to his probation officer.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He asked that the court revoke the probation and jail Robinson. He does that, but then there's a hearing and he's released on bail pending an appeal. So the FBI keeps Williams hidden, gives her money, and finally buys her a one-way ticket out of town. Get the fuck out of here. He's going to kill you.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The Missouri Court of Appeals overturned the district judge's ruling on the grounds that Robinson's constitutional rights had been violated because he had not been allowed to adequately confront his accuser, Teresa Williams, because they had to hide her so he didn't kill her. Right. So July 1985, he hires a private detective to find Teresa Williams. Is that illegal?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He doesn't know because he doesn't know that they didn't tell him we're hiding her. So you can fire a private detective to find anybody. So at that point, the FBI found out about that and then moves her to like three more times for her safety to try to like, you know, wash the trail.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. Yeah. Follow the queen. That's what it is. August 21st, 1985. His probation is revoked and he is sentenced to serve seven years at the Missouri Department of Corrections. But he wins an appeal and doesn't have to serve the time.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Put a tie on, have money for a lawyer, comb your hair nice. In the 80s, golden. You're great. He then appears in Farm Journal magazine.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He made the cover of Farm Journal magazine. The editors were unaware of his criminal record. The article was promoting people to invest in his Equitoo company. What? Two ranchers did just that and lost $10,000 each. Yeah. 1986, after a long investigation, the district attorney in Johnson County charges him with fraud in bilking back care systems with his company here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
A jury is going to convict him in January of 1986. He was then convicted of a second fraud against an Overland Park man in connection with an Arizona real estate deal. Oh. Because of his shit criminal record, the judge sentences him to serve between, you sir may fuck off, between 6 and 19 years in prison as a habitual criminal.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
But he remains free on bail for his appeal.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Habitual criminal. I'm sure he'll be fine out there.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Right after this, Catherine Clampett. Clampett with two Ps, like Pittsburgh.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, Clampett. 27 years old. She is of Overland Park, Kansas. I guess she moved to Kansas from Wichita Falls, Texas after answering a newspaper ad in which Robinson promised a great job, lots of traveling, and a new wardrobe.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
OK, now Clampett, she is described by her family as intelligent and a bit wild, often stayed at local hotels for several nights at a time. And then in 1987, right after this ad, she inexplicably disappears for weeks and they call the cops finally. And she is reported officially missing on June 15th, 1987. Now, 87, he goes to prison. His appeals fail. So he actually goes to fucking prison.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Catholics are the Baptists of, I don't even know, Missouri, Kansas, the Midwest, the wheat belt, I guess we'll say. Unemployment rate is very low here, 3.2%, which is even lower than the national average, which is pretty low. Median household income, very high here, too, $96,477 a year. Well, what is that about? That's a lot. It's just a wealthy little suburb.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He began serving a four year sentence at Kansas Hutchinson Hutchinson Correctional Facility. He does very well in jail also because he's full of shit. And he has a couple of bucks, and it helps. So after psychological and mental testing showed his intelligence to be well above average, he was put to work as the coordinator of the prison's maintenance operations office. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
There, he developed computer programs that saved the Kansas prison system over $100,000 a year. Oh, shit. Yeah, so he actually did something. And that goes in his record, makes him look good.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
June 1989, his father dies. John's father dies. And then John suffers a series of strokes, small strokes that left permanent neurological damage and the right side of his face partially paralyzed and looks a little kind of droopy. A little droopy, yeah. In a nine-page report of clinical and medical evaluation dated November 1, 1990, two ranking doctors reported
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And a supervising psychiatrist was one of them. The director of medical services and the supervising psychiatrist of the prison wrote that John Robinson was a model inmate who made the best of his incarceration. He's a nonviolent person and does not present a threat to society. He's a devoted family man who has taught his children a strong value system. Hmm. Yeah. So that's what they're saying.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He is good at being full of shit. 1991, he gets out of Kansas prison, but he's transferred to two prisons in Missouri for violating probation and an old fraud charge as well. So they're passing him around. Hames writes in his official memorandum to a colleague in 1991, I believe him to be a con man out of control. He leaves in his wake many unanswered questions and missing persons.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I have observed Robinson's sociopathic tendencies, habitual criminal behavior, inability to tell the truth, and scheming to cover his own actions at the expense of others. I was not surprised to see he had a good institutional adjustment in Kansas, considering that he's quite bright and a white-collar con man capable of being quite personable and friendly to those around him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Especially staff, because they're not used to having people that can treat them like that. educated people, that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So Hames predicted that Robinson would use his medical problems to his advantage, which he does because two of the people he promptly befriends at the penitentiary in Missouri are the prison doctor, William Bonner, and mostly his 47-year-old wife, Beverly, the prison librarian. She gave Robinson a job in the library, which is an easy job.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. There's hopefully somebody. But I mean, he's smart and might know the books. That's the only difference. So Beverly Bonner here, she becomes friends with him. And she lived, the couple, her and her husband lived in Cameron, Missouri. And they have two sons. And, yeah, so he's an inmate there. William Bonner, like we said, is the doctor, the prison physician.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So 1993, John's released from prison. And fucking Beverly Bonner divorces her husband and moves to Kansas.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The librarian. divorces her doctor husband to move. She told her family she had a job with his company and that included foreign travel and she was taken off. She told her ex-husband that she was going to be traveling abroad and gave him an address at the post office box that he could use to mail her her alimony. She disappeared. Yep. Send my checks. I'll be off doing shit. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She disappeared immediately upon saying she was going. And John places all her belongings in a storage locker in a Kansas City suburb. She's not seen by her family after her final divorce proceeding in February of 94. Her brother invited her to his September 1995 wedding, but she didn't show up. And her oldest son died in October 1995, but she didn't attend his funeral or pay any attention to it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, it's 20 minutes to Kansas City if you don't want to live in Kansas City. And I guess I'm sure there's more crime, probably smaller properties, stuff like that. You want to avoid him at all costs, usually. You want to avoid Joe Buck.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So she's gone is what that means. Yeah. They tried to make it that she disappeared to travel, but all those things happening means that probably she's dead. So... His income, since he was in prison, had stopped, so his wife Nancy had been forced to sell their big house with the horses and all that.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She took a job as the manager of a mobile home development in Belton, Missouri, which is a suburb south of Kansas City. The development was called South Fork after a large family home on the Dallas television series. And all the streets were named after Dallas characters.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Sue Ellen Avenue, Cliff Barnes Lane, and so forth. And he's J.R. How perfect is that? So they said they could make do with this because the twins were in college, so they didn't need as much room. They just rented some storage units at a facility for their overflow shit. At this point, he starts a magazine.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. Everything I tell you is like at this point, it might as well be at this point he orbited Pluto. OK, why not? Sure. Yeah. He has a company called Specialty Productions or Publications where he put out a trade magazine called Manufactured Modular Home Living.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And who wants to read about how others are living inside their trailers?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's the opposite of aspirational. So early 1994, Beverly Bonner never seen again, but her mother continued to send her alimony checks to the mailbox in Olathe at a business called The Mailroom. In December 1993, Robinson, posing as Jim Turner, applied for a mailbox under Bonner's name at the mailroom, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The owner, Colleen Davis, identified Robinson later on as the person she knew as Turner. That's another one of his aliases. Robinson executed a lease for Box 182 under Bonner's name on January 1st, 1994, presented Bonner's identification and told Davis he was collecting Bonner's mail while she worked in Australia. This person at the store never met Bonner and only saw Robinson access the mailbox.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This William Bonner paid his ex-wife $1,000 in monthly alimony for 18 months. He mailed them every time. Every alimony check was deposited into Robinson's Hydro Grow Inc. business account.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep, that is fucking wild. It's at the Community Bank of Raymoor. He opened that on February 1st, 1994, with James A. Turner and Beverly J. Bonner as the authorized signatories. So, wow. Three latent fingerprints lifted from the original alimony checks match Robinson's prints, by the way, later on. He attempted to conceal Bonner's disappearance with fraudulent communications to her family.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Absolutely. Cost of living, that's how he got all his hair back. The cost of living here, it is $106 out of $100, so a little bit higher than the average. The median home cost is actually higher than the national average, which you wouldn't expect for suburban Kansas. But median home cost here, $404,300. Jeez.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
In January 94, her brother, Larry Heath, received a handwritten letter purportedly from Bonner that said she was starting a new career with an international corporation in Chicago and that she would be training extensively domestically and abroad. A few months. Super busy. Leave me alone.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
A few months later, Larry Heath, the brother, received a typewritten letter purportedly from Bonner, which was unusual because she always wrote letters by hand. And the letter said that Bonner was working for Jim Redmond in the human resources department of a large international corporation. Larry Heath continued to receive similar typewritten letters every three to four months.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Think about how to keep track of all this shit. Oh, shit. It's been three months. It's been three months. I got to fucking write a letter to this. Like, this is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow. That's a lot of plates to keep spinning. Imagine having to think of all that shit. That sounds so stressful.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This is... This is, yeah, scamming.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This is more work than a day job, though.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It's easier to get a fucking job, man. It would have been easier just to go to medical school. This would have been way easier. So the brother would respond now and then, mailing the correspondence to the mailbox. During the same period, another relative received about half dozen letters which arrived in envelopes postmarked Australia, France, the Netherlands, and Kansas City, Missouri.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely crazy edition of Small Town Murder. We have another serial killer this week.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The letters were typewritten, often discussed Bonner's travel overseas, and were signed with what Bonner believed to be in her handwriting. I think it's part of the SNM and BDSM thing. He's got a lot of friends overseas. He's got a lot of weirdos.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's it. Just throw it in the mail. Summer of 1994, Sheila Dale Faith, like the word faith. She's 45 years old, and she has a daughter named Debbie Lynn Faith, who's 15 years old here. Debbie Lynn was born in 1978. Debbie is born with a bunch of birth defects. She's got a lot of problems. Really? She has cerebral palsy, which is- Oh, my God. Really difficult.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And I knew somebody who had a relative. It's a terrible fucking thing to happen to somebody. Palsy? Palsy's bad. It's awful. Which limited her ability to walk. Anything like controlling her bladder was difficult. She had to wear adult diapers as a 15-year-old. Poor kid. Poor fucking child, man.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Now, as if things weren't hard enough for Sheila, taking care of her child and everything else, her husband died in 1993. Yikes. died so Sheila moved with Debbie from California to Pueblo Colorado to be closer to a close friend of hers who was going to help out so Sheila and Debbie lived on social security and obviously struggled financially to meet things like doctor bills and stuff
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So Sheila, according to her friend, was lonely and would respond to personal ads in hopes of meeting somebody. What? Her husband died. She's lonely. You know what I mean? So on several occasions, Sheila talked to this Guerrero person, her friend, about her interest in BDSM, but didn't share details because Guerrero was uncomfortable with the subject.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Which seems a little bit steep, but let's find out what they have here with the Lenexa Kansas Real Estate Report. Average two bedroom rental here goes for fourteen hundred dollars a month, which is above the average. Yeah. Here's a three bedroom, two bath, eleven hundred square foot house. So not that big of a house, really, at all. It's a standard little ranch house inside. Pretty dull.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Someone's got to be into that subject to really talk about it with him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She is. She is. This one's. Yeah. Sheila's sister also believed that Sheila was interested in BDSM. So in spring of 1994, Sheila told her friend that she had met a man named John from Missouri. She said John was a wealthy executive who promised to take her on a cruise and put Debbie Debbie in a private school. John, quote, promised her the world, the friend recalled.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He told her he was going to take her on a cruise, that he would take care of her daughter, that she'd never have to work, that money was no problem. Sheila told her sister, Kathy, that she met a man with a good job. They planned to travel together and that he planned to buy Debbie a new wheelchair and an accessible van.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow. The sister said that Sheila called him Jim Turner either in a letter or during a phone conversation. She couldn't remember. Sheila told her friend that she and Debbie were going to visit John. They planned to be gone for about a month, spending a couple weeks with John in Missouri and then traveling to Texas to visit family.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So this friend expected Sheila to return within a few weeks because they had purchased tickets to the Colorado State Fair and Sheila planned to enter a cross-stitched angel into the fair competition. She's going to win the cross-stitching prize here at the Colorado State Fair. While Sheila packed, Guerrero noticed she did not take furniture, bedding, or other items that you need to move.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She's just taking shit to go on a vacation. So, yeah. So they packed up their belongings. They moved to Kansas City where they fucking disappeared. Mom and daughter gone. They vanished, but their mail, including their disability checks, was being forwarded to a mailbox at the mailroom. Yep.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Neither the friend or Sheila's sisters spoke to Sheila or Debbie ever again after they left Colorado to visit him. Additionally, in 1995, Robinson gave one of his other girlfriends, Sandra Shields, a cross-stitched angel as a gift.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep. That is fucking horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep. The friend, Guerrero, the missing woman's friend, later identified the item as the piece Sheila had made to enter into the state fair competition.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That is fucked up. Now, after Sheila and Debbie left, Sheila's sisters received letters written by Sheila.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Typewritten letter purportedly from Sheila in a postmark envelope postmarked Canada. A letter said that Sheila had met a wonderful man named Jim and all this shit. Now, the sister was convinced the letter was a fraud because Sheila always wrote letters by hand and Sheila's signature didn't appear to be her signature. So they reviewed another. She received another letter the following December.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Again, she was convinced Sheila didn't write it. It was typed out. And all that kind of shit. But they're all postmarked from outside the country. So, but for years, since they haven't been, they're not like nothing. We don't know what happened to them. Their checks keep coming.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And he keeps collecting them.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep. In June 1994, months after setting up the private mailbox under Bonner's name, posing as Jim Turner, he set up another private mailbox at the same place under the name Sheila and Debbie Faith. And the owners saw Robinson come to the mailbox at least once a month to collect two government checks mailed to Sheila and Debbie. Holy. He's such a scumbag. This is a disabled child?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Pure garbage. Dude, it's one thing to scam adults and be like, yeah, I'm going to get you here for sex and then I'm going to kill you. That's normal. People expect that. When you answer a BDSM ad in a newspaper back then, you go, this could be really fun or I could be murdered. One of the two.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I mean, obviously wrong to murder any of these people, but a 15-year-old fucking disabled child? That's about as disgusting of a move as you could possibly fucking do.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, what are you going to do? Push her into the woods in her wheelchair and leave her there? Yeah, you got to kill her somehow. So from July 94 to September 95, the checks were deposited into Robinson's HydroGro Inc. business account. The same one he used to deposit the alimony checks. Wow. In fall of 1995, Community Bank of Raymoor notified Robinson, a.k.a.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
James Turner, that the Social Security checks could not be deposited into a business account. Thereafter, he deposited the checks into his specialty publications accounts at other financial institutions. He also that's Jesus Christ. Wow. Attached to the disability form here. He completed a disability form for our disability review form for Debbie and signed by Sheila.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So the report appeared to be signed by Dr. William Bonner, Like William Bonner? Like Beverly's husband.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's William Bonner. That's the doctor from the prison.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
But he never treated Debbie Faith, had not prepared the report, and had never had an address, an office at the address listed. December 95, he's collecting enough money from other people's alimony and Social Security that, this is wild, he puts $95,000 down for a house for his son and grandchildren in Big Pine Key, Florida.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Everything's about 10, 15 years old. It's you know, it's fine. Two hundred eighty five thousand bucks, though, for that house. Which seems a little high to live in Kansas. I don't know. Here's a five bedroom, five baths, a tea bowl for each and every b-hole right here. 3,400 square, six square feet. So good size house. It's really weird though.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Weird. So around the neighborhood now, he's starting to be known as a dirty old man who made sexual advances on many of his female neighbors again. Now, though, by the time you're 50, you can't do that shit. When you're 32, you might be able to bang some of your wife's neighbors. By the time you're 50, you're just a dirty old man then.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. It's mid-30s is when that happens at some point. That's when it happens. That's when it happens. That's when it happens.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Oh, my bad. Gross. You're like, oh. I guess I shouldn't have said that to you right outside the jungle gym, I suppose. As much the environment as what I said, you know what I mean? I guess.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. Yeah, no, the rainbow snow cone is the one I wanted. Sorry. Sorry about that. Kids, it's your turn. I'm sorry. I tried. Line of kids behind you. So he even crept around the trailer park driving slowly by their trailers on his golf cart when he knew their husbands weren't home. Ew. Peering in. Somehow he is still married. Nancy's still hanging around here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Now, this is in Santa Barbara Estates in Olathe. He spends a lot of time here. This is in his mobile home in front of his five computers at this point. And this is 1990s. So this is like 95. Compact Presarios. But you know how expensive five fucking computers was in the 90s? That's 15 grand. Dude, that's so much money. And he's sitting there, and he's on the internet this time, too.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
95 on the internet searching BDSM shit. God damn. The early internet adopters were either wrestling fans, like code dorks who were- Or TV. Code dorks who were trading like hacking shit and code stuff or really horny people that were into shit that was too weird to tell people in person.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Now I can go by Slave Master because that's what he's going by. That's his handle here. So he's searching all the BDSM shit on the internet here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He began placing and monitoring ads in The Pitch Weekly, a so-called alternative newspaper in Kansas City whose back pages feature personal columns called Romance the Dating Connection for people seeking conventional relationships and The Wild Side for people who prefer the unconventional. Yeah. It's like the LA Weekly ads we read and the personal ads.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So now that the internet's here, though, now it really expands. He was doing all this from magazine ads and weird newspaper ads. Now there's the internet. Now he's connected to everybody. Now he's got people. So way beyond the pitch weekly. It's ridiculous. So he had three desktops, two laptop computers going trolling BDSM websites for hours under the slave master handle here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's living with his wife in a three bedroom trailer. It's wild. He's also got a cell phone, a pager. He's emailing everybody already. And Nancy's working at the office manager at the Santa Barbara Estates. Around September 1st, 1995, he spotted an ad which read, Masterful, successful, entrepreneurial, single white male, 35 to 50, sought by successful Rubenesque beauty. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
so it's a for a guy a woman looking for a man what does rubenesque mean like stoddard no no it means uh curvy means you got tits and ass yeah rubenesque means tits and ass it used to mean fat now it means tits and ass okay yeah okay we've changed it now to that um so she left he left a voicemail and she called him back she went by the name chloe elizabeth to conceal her identity as a successful well-known college educated businesswoman in topeka kansas
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The they've done the inside, like, you know, redid it and all. And it's very strange. Let me show you a picture of the kitchen. Look at the back. It's got the black countertops with that weird... Oh, it's that little subway tile. It's little black subway tiles.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. She's a career, you know, minded person, never got married. She was accustomed to dominating in her business life and had decided it was time to seek what she truly wanted in her personal life. Wow. Yeah. Which is a dominant who could who quote a dominant woman.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
with whom I can give up control of the personal side of my life and obey a worthy man who would advance my sexual and personal journey beyond what I was willing to admit wanting on my own.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Horrifying person. Yeah. Horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Our fucking brains are weird, aren't they? What the fuck is that? The psychology of that shit. Wow. So she said, Wow. She said, I'm not at all a paranoid person, but in a relationship of DNS where you're sincere about what you're doing, you really need to know the person you're going to give the control up as someone who will take good care of you. You need to trust them. Jesus. So he sent her.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Now she's using a real name and address, an array of material designed to portray him in the best possible light. Chicago newspapers accounts of his appearance before the Queen in London, what we told you about. His hydroponics booklet. Just to show, look, I'm a real person. I'm all filled out.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, Kansas University brochure picturing his attractive children, his appearance on the cover of Farm Journal, and his proclamation naming him Man of the Year. Right. Wow. No indication of his criminal past or anything like that. But anyway, two months after their first conversation, she and J.R. had discussed their sexual preferences extensively by phone.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She knew what what he as the dominant was expected of her. She said, quote, I was to meet him at the door wearing only a sheer robe, a black mesh thong panty, matching demi-cup bra, thigh-high stockings, and black heels. My eyes were to be made up dark and lips red, and I was to kneel before him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I took him first to the library and a large king chair in front of the fire. Next to it, I had put his drink of choice, Scotch on the Rocks. He drew me to him and we kissed for the first time. After some relaxed small talk, I led him through the rest of the house, ending up in my bedroom on the third floor.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
There he asked me to remove the few items of clothing I was wearing, one at a time except for the stockings. He then took from his pocket a contract for slavery... Giving my consent to use me as a sexual toy in any way he wished and to punish me in any way he saw fit. I read the contract and signed it. He asked if I was sure. I said, yes, very sure. She is horny.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He put the contract back in his pocket and asked me to remove all of his clothes except his pants. He then asked me to lie face down on the bed and spread my arms and legs as wide as I could. Using a rope that he had brought, he tied my wrist to the head of the bed and my ankles to the foot of the bed. Once he had me tied up, he asked me to try to move. I couldn't. He then removed his belt.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Because I can see they have one black subway tile, and the next to it is one that's black and gray, and they mix them all together.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's an Eagle Scout. Yeah, remember, he's got knots. He's got a fucking badge for that. This is his BDSM badge from the Eagle Scouts.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I earned my S&M badge when I was a young man.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Man, she was impressed. Once he had me tied, he asked me if I could move. I couldn't. He then removed his belt and began to whip me across my bottom slowly and lightly. I could feel excitement flowing across my skin. Is this a penthouse letter?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Then the blows got harder and closer together. It was painful and I cried. He then lay down beside me and cuddled me and comforted me and told me he loved me. He untied the ropes around my wrists and ankles and instructed me to kneel on the bed in front of him. My punishment training for the day was not over. He took a spool of smaller rope as he talked about training my large breasts.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Even my large breasts. My heaving breasts. Giant tits. Jesus. I wanted to please him. He said that the breasts to be pleasing and well-trained must be able to endure pain and wear marks. He began to wrap the rope tightly around the base of the breast. He wrapped it so tightly that it bulged and turned reddish purple.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He crossed the rope in the middle of my chest and began wrapping the other breast. Now both my breasts were like large ripe tomatoes, red and ready to burst. The nipples were erect and brown. He took clamps and put one on each nipple. The pain was severe. He thrust the solid leather strap of his belt down on the top side of my breast and
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, it looks like there's no channel coming in here. No good. No good. So $600,000 for that, though.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's whipping her tits while she's clamped up. The pain caused the nipples to expand and become unimaginably restricted by the clamps. Engorged to about three times their normal size, the nipples turned purple and blue. He strapped my breasts again. Only those swats, there would be no more today. To show my gratefulness to his attention, he required one more duty.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He stood before the bed and removed his pants. He required that I perform oral sex. This was the first date. It was sensational. She loved it. What the fuck? Yeah. She said that they asked this woman later on, is this always part of your relationships? Is pain always part of this? She said it depends on what you consider pain, which means yes. I came and that doesn't hurt.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It means fuck yeah it does. I wasn't interested in being beaten. I don't love pain. Some women in this lifestyle love pain. For me, there comes a physical state that you're in where what one might consider pain on your body isn't painful. Before he left, he told her that she had been stupid for allowing him to do all that he had done. I could have killed you, he said, though he hadn't told him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She said that she didn't tell him this, but she never felt threatened by him even when she was tied because she had stationed a male friend in the house. She has a guy hiding in the house to be on alert for some signal she gives to come in and help her. Nope, doesn't know it at all. Wow. He, though, made notes of J.R. 's license plate number while they were upstairs.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, no land, just a small plot. $3,500.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So she's fucking smart, this one. That's why she's alive to be interviewed later is because she thought of all this shit. He had told her he was divorced. This is the problem here. Okay. They started seeing each other a couple times a week, but she became suspicious of him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Through a contact in state government, she ran his license plates and found out his car was registered in his wife's name as well as his. He told her he was divorced. So, yeah, they at this point, she said that they had to exchange, you know, declarations of love. He suggested to her they should exchange lists of all their assets. Let's just write down all the stuff we have.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
house it's a good house good amount of house but that's expensive here's a four bedroom five bath so t-bowl for all your b-holes again 4,150 square feet so big old house um it's pretty nice actually inside i mean it's a it's an expensive nice house uh it has a golf simulator in there like a big golf simulator thing like at one of those bars you know where douchebags go so drill balls into the screen yeah yeah and pretend like you're golfing while you're drunk
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's worth something. What do you say?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Let's just write it down and look at it. She said, no, I don't think so. So, yeah, she was supposed to, you know, she's supposed to. This is fucking crazy. So that she figured out what he was about. And that was that.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. She didn't see him anymore because he was lying to her and shit like that. So early 1997. Now, Beverly Bonner is officially missing. The letters stopped coming and her family grew concerned and contacted authorities to report her disappearance. The detective here examined nine of the envelopes mailed to Larry Heath.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Eight of the envelopes had sufficient something fluid on them to create a full DNA profile. And each profile matched Robinson DNA. So, late 1997, Isabella Lewicka. Mm-hmm. 19 years old, born in Poland here. She moved to West Lafayette, Indiana with her family at age 11. She started to study at Purdue University in the fall of 96. She was big into painting and shit like that, into the arts.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She also had a big interest in several things like, well, paganism, goth shit, and BDSM she's into. Yeah. In 97, spring, she told her friend Jennifer that an international book agent in Kansas City had offered her a job doing secretarial work and had commissioned her to illustrate BDSM manuscripts.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Lewicka said she was going to move to Kansas City to be with this older married man who had agreed to train her to become a dominant in BDSM. So she's going to be his little protege. Lewicka told her friend that he wanted her to call him master and to maintain strict confidentiality. Louie seemed concerned when she inadvertently told her friend that the master's name was John.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She was like, oh, shit, I wasn't supposed to say that. So in late 97, she told her parents she was dropping out of school to move to Kansas City, where a rich entrepreneur entrepreneur had offered her an internship. She also signed the slave contract. It's a 115-item contract, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
A lot of initialing going on there. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And an initial here, if you'll allow this. Initial here for boob fucking pain. Initial here. Wow. The fact that she didn't tell her parents, though, obviously, she never comes home again and communicates with her parents strictly through e-mail. So, yeah, she keeps saying it's a publishing company internship. If it led to a job, she might stay longer, but maybe she'd be back to Purdue for 97.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You don't know. So she would be living, as she told them, at 9280 Metcalf in Overland Park and could be reached by e-mail. So June 8th, 97, she left for Kansas with her car filled, filled full of shit. And all of her friends knew that she moved to Kansas for both work and BDSM training. So 1998, she registers at a local community college as Isabella LaWicka Robinson.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Oh, yeah. No, they're married, he says at this point. Yeah, they're married, even though they're not married. They leased a private mailbox at Mailboxes Etc., the same address that she gave her parents there, so it's not a physical address. It's just a mailboxes store. Both Lewicka and Robinson were authorized to access the box.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
October 1997, Robinson had his insurance agent write a two-year auto policy on Lewicka's vehicle, explaining she was an employee. On November 14th, Lewick opened up an account at Bank of America where Robinson also had an account for specialty publications. February 1998, Robinson contacted Jennifer Bonadot, a property manager for the Deerfield apartment complex in Olav.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He said he needed a corporate apartment for employees he would train before they were transferred to positions out of state. In the rental application, he identified himself and Lewicka as prospective occupants. He told this woman that he met Lewicka at a graphics trade show and that she had been abused by her parents and that he had adopted her. Oh, so it's an adoption, not a marriage.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's what he tells some people, and some people, they tell they're married. And some people, they say that it's his daughter.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep. This sounds nice to these people. So he paid the rent. He signed a one-year rental agreement and paid the rent with a specialty publications check, and Lewicka occupied the apartment. For the next year in the land. So July 1998, he buys 16 acres of land. I guess he had bought this land sometime a couple years ago maybe or whatever. It's in La Singe, Kansas. LA. LA. Separate word. C-Y-G-N-E.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So, I mean, it's got a lot of nice touches, a lot of like clearly like expensive touches. And that's a good thing because it's two million five hundred thousand dollars for that house. So you have to play like on the you have to play like on the Royals or like on the Chiefs offensive line or something to fucking afford that.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Lasigny? I don't fucking know. Either way, it's going to be a bad one to pronounce. So he buys 16 acres of old farmland there. He stores a 1999 trailer on the property as well. In 1998 here, he installs two phone lines and one for his landline, one for his computer.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
gotta have the fucking dedicated internet phone line back then yeah january 99 just before the lease expired at the apartment he contacted julie brown a manager for aj lang property management a downtown julie brown she's back to find an apartment uh robinson said he was in the publication business and needed a corporate apartment again for female employees same shit so luika then moves to that apartment and he pays the rent there
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Now, while here, she works for specialty publications, handling advertising and graphics for his magazine.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She actually does that. In 1998, Robinson told his publishing broker, Karen Scott, he had hired his adopted daughter as a graphic designer.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow. Lewicka told a woman named Pam Sadewhite, who owns a graphic arts company that did work for Robinson, that Robinson was her uncle. But this woman saw them flirting and touching one another in a manner that suggested this would be a pretty weird uncle-niece relationship. She often told people she was Robinson's wife.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She registered for an introductory drafting class at Johnson Community College under the name of Robinson and told an instructor she was married to an older man. And she also identified herself as Isabella Robinson to several employees of local businesses. But they never had a license. He did give her a ring and paid for a marriage license but never picked it up.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Didn't plan on having two within three weeks of each other with Haddon Clark a couple weeks ago or whatever, but this is a completely different guy than Haddon Clark. Couldn't be more different. This is almost like if BTK had social skills. This is who he would be. Put it that way. Yeah, you know, BTK was weird. Nobody liked him. If he was a good con man, he would be this guy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
In Arizona, it was $78. Oh, yeah. Yeah, not much. Because whenever Sarah's doing something and I go like, she goes, you paid $78 for this. And I go, okay, fine. Fair enough. So Nancy gets a surprise here. Wife Nancy, she did not know that he's been doing any of this stuff. With Isabella? With anybody. She doesn't even know what he's into sexually.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah. In 1998, that's when she learned he was into fucking BDSM.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's when she figured it out after discovering fetish websites saved in his internet browser history. See? He was the first guy to get busted like that, I think.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
man so she found out how to do it how to look yeah she figured it out i'm gonna check it at home shit she tried to go to some like you know fucking crafting site she was on and she's looking through the history she's like wait a second so robinson shared stories of his bdsm stuff with a guy named carlos abara a maintenance employee at the trailer park tell the ah Tell the guy, the guy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Hey, turn that fucking hedge clipper off for a minute. I got to tell you something. Showed him nude photographs also.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It's pretty good. Hey, you seem to be pretty good at tying up those bushes to keep them off the road. Do you think you could tie up a titty? He showed this guy nude photographs of a girlfriend depicted in BDSM poses. So Nancy Robinson also learned about the relationship with Isabella LaWicca.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I would imagine. I can't imagine there would be much of a... Kicking property taxes through the roof. No, no.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She believed the relationship was different from any other affairs he might have had in the past because when Nancy had learned of an affair in the past, Robinson had always ended it immediately if she had ever found out about something. But here, this time, the relationship continued and Nancy thought that he was going to leave her for Lewicka.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And he was just doing it in the open. Fuck you. I'm doing it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So the wicked disappears in the late summer or fall of 1999. People stop hearing from her. She. So earlier that summer, Robinson convinced another woman, Barbara Sandry, to move from Canada to Kansas. On August 18th, they executed a lease for an unfurnished duplex at Hunter's Point, located on Grant Street in Overland Park.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Barbara Sandra needed furnishings for the duplex, and Robinson agreed to provide them. On August 23rd, he hired a moving company to deliver household items from LaWicca's apartment to this woman's apartment.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
No, people would leave there. There's not a lot holding people to Kansas, I would think, because you could just move to Missouri, or there's a lot of states to move around to also.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That is fucked up. Over the next two weeks, he bought additional furnishings, including bedding and pillows, blankets, kitchen utensils, artwork, and hundreds of books. Many of these items were later identified as belonging to Lewicka.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's so fucked up, man. Jesus Christ. So he also rekindles his relationship with a woman named Alicia Cox from earlier in 1999. Later that year, Cox was unemployed, didn't have permanent housing, so Robinson invited her to stay at Lewicka's apartment.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This woman said that the apartment was mostly vacant, but there were some boxes containing clothing and household items. Robinson told Cox that the girl who'd been living there quit her job and ran off with her boyfriend, leaving the clothes behind. So Alicia Cox took some of the clothing, which was later identified as Lewicka's. Right. Cox declined the offer to stay in the apartment. So, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Anyway, he ends up getting rid of that apartment. They inspected the unit later on and found it to be mostly unkempt, but noticed two bedrooms had been cleaned meticulously, but the rest of it was shitty. Fall 1999, Suzette Troughton, T-R-O-U-T-E-N, 27 years old. youngest of five children. She lived near her mother in the Monroe, Michigan area.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She's a home care nurse and she talks to her mother daily. Now, one thing she doesn't tell her mother in these daily talks is that she's super into fucking BDSM. She goes to websites, chat rooms, created her own BDSM webpage, and traveled out of state for BDSM hookups.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I'll just float to Louisiana if I have to. Things to do here, the Great Lenexa Barbecue Battle. We're going to have a fucking throwdown right now. Who's in? Hundreds of pitmasters compete in the Great Lenexa Barbecue Battle each year. The battle is the state's largest barbecue competition. Pitmasters. Pitmasters. In 1984, Governor John Carlin declared it the official Kansas State Championship.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This is her hobby, yeah. She would also, she's into collecting teapots, hanging out with her two Pekingese dogs, and also BDSM. She was so deeply involved in the scene that she carried on relationships with four dominants at once.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's a lot of masters, man.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She had pierced her nipples, her navel, and five places in and around her genitalia. I don't know five. Yeah, I'm thinking one, two, three.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Side, side, top, top is four. You just said four and then said six.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
If you double them up. Otherwise, what are we talking about here?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I'm trying to think of exactly where she's putting five.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I'm sure. Sure. Why not? Who doesn't have a pierced tank?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Maybe. I'm not sure. We don't know. But she's got all of this shit. And these are used to accommodate rings and other devices used in BDSM shit. That's why she's so they can grab her down there. A photograph of Suzette with nails driven through her breasts circulated on the Internet.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She's one of these people. I don't know, man. How? She likes the real painful shit. I just got creeped out in my chair.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
It says through her breasts. I'm not sure.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So in the mid-90s, she met Lore Remington, a Canadian resident who shared her interests in all this shit. Remington trained her as a slave, the submissive partner here. Remington introduced Troughton to her friend Tammy Taylor, who also lived in Canada, and and became another friend.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Troughton placed ads on BDSM websites seeking a position as a slave, and they started, her and Robinson started communicating by email. In the summer of 99, Troughton told her mother that this Robinson offered her a job as a caring for his elderly father, Papa John, quote unquote. He's elderly and dumb as fuck and his pizza's terrible.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Troughton said Robinson and his father were selling off several companies and that Papa John needed nursing care as they traveled to various locations to close deals. Troughton said the job would pay $60,000 a year and require extensive travel to places such as Switzerland and Belgium. And yeah. So February 2000, Suzette moves to him. She moves to Kansas City to work for J.R.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She left Robinson's name and phone number with her mother, with whom she's very close with. So she said she had an interview with Robinson in October 1999. She came back a few days later, told her mother that she did not like the idea of being away from home but had decided to take the job for a year to earn enough money to go to school.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So she had to go back again, sign an employment contract – we know what that is – and find a place to live. And she told everybody she got a job working for a guy named John who needed someone to care for the elderly father and all this type of shit. So just before Troughton left, her aunt helped her create a list of her friends and family's contact information so she could stay in touch.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
February 12th, 2000, Troughton left for Kansas, bringing along her two Pekingese dogs, Pika and Harry, in the moving truck that Robinson rented for her. So she drove in her truck with her clothes, books, dogs, and teapot collection. That's pretty much what she's got. Also, her BDSM stuff, whips, paddles, canes, collars, all that shit.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She checked into the room. Hotel staff informed her of their no pet policy. So what they did was they bored them at the Ridgeview Animal Hospital. He said that the dogs belonged to his employees and indicated the dogs would be boarded through the end of February.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So while she's in Kansas, Troughton calls her mom every day, told her mom she decided to put her belongings in storage rather than find an apartment immediately because they're going to be leaving on their trip. Then she said their itinerary had changed.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Rather than traveling to Switzerland as originally planned, they decided to go to California, pick up Robinson's new yacht, and sail to Hawaii first.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So Robinson could relax before resuming his meetings. Yeah, this got much better. Holy shit. Jesus. So Troughton and her mom communicate daily on an instant messaging program on Yahoo. And in these conversations, she discusses that she was in a sexual relationship with Robinson with one of her friends. And she was. So anyway, Robinson's concealment of – she ends up disappearing, obviously. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This is the official here. This is the big one. This tells you you can have the best ribs in the state. Governor decreed. So they hosted it, sanctioned by the Kansas City Barbecue Society.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So on February 25th, 2000, he sent Troughton an email message requesting login and password information for all of her email accounts. And she provided that information to him in a reply email. And so then he uses this to be able to use her email. The last time Carolyn Troughton heard from her daughter Suzette was around 1 a.m. on March 1st, 2000.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She called her mother at work and said that she and Robinson were leaving on the trip that morning. And that's it. Never saw her again. That is fucking interesting. At 1143, a long-distance call was placed from Robinson's Lynn County trailer to Nancy Robinson's work phone. So that's where he is. John, at 2.13 p.m., Robinson picked up Troughton's dogs at the animal clinic.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Employees said Robinson appeared to be agitated and in a hurry. He told one employee he was in a rush to get to the airport. Robinson placed the dogs in a small kennel and left, and Troughton was not seen with Robinson in his truck at the clinic as well. So, yeah, at 2.35 here, this is now 2.24. That was 2.13. 2.24 at p.m.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
His access code was used to gain entry through the security gates at his Olade storage unit, and the code was used to exit the facility six minutes later. 2.35 p.m., Animal Control Officer Rodney E. McLean was dispatched to the Santa Barbara Estates after Robinson instructed the office assistant to report two dogs on the loose.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
McLean arrived 10 minutes later and saw two Pekingese dogs inside a small, medium-sized carrying kennel located just outside the office and transported them to the local shelter. So, yeah, this is around 3 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
A housekeeper at the guest house suites observed a man matching Robinson's physical description, leading Troughton's belongings, loading Troughton's belongings from room 216 into a truck, matching the description of Robinson's vehicle in the hotel parking lot. When she cleaned the room, she noticed that the linens and towels were stained with blood. Oh, what? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
However, she observed similar similar bloodstains when she cleaned the room throughout Troughton stay. Troughton had an irregular menstrual cycle and would bleed heavily onto the towels. Doesn't she have things for that? Just onto the towel. Jesus fuck, man. We got to change the carpeting when she leaves. What's going on? How much is she bleeding?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They have a lot of power. You have no idea. They can have you thrown in jail for nothing, really. They have the power to ticket vehicles. In Kansas City, the barbecue really rules the roost. I mean, anything could happen. So it started in 82 with 12 teams and 12 judges and no prize money.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow. Around 3.30 p.m., a hotel security camera captured Robinson checking out of Troughton's room. Hotel staff confirmed Robinson was the person who checked out of the room and paid the bill. He was not with Robinson. She wasn't with them at the time, and the hotel employees did not see her at all on March 1st. Then the family starts receiving letters from her. Oh, yeah. All sorts of letters.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Return address. It only said Suzette Troughton, though there was no return address saying she had plans to leave for California. March 2nd, 2000, the day of her disappearance. People are receiving emails from her hotmail account saying that her and her dogs had left on the adventure of a lifetime and.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
all this type of shit um uh her friend received a reply from trouton's hotmail account referencing him to a new master at uh area diet master at email.com okay say it again area diet master at email.com i didn't know that was a that was a.com you could get email.com but okay So letters and emails keep coming.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They go to her family, including her aunt, her sister, her brother, her father's girlfriend, all these people that she normally communicate. He looked through her shit, sees who she normally communicates with, and communicates with them. April 9, 2000, just before her birthday, Troughton's grandmother received a birthday card written by her.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Green envelope postmarked San Jose, California on March 27th is where it came in. So that's interesting. So they keep getting all this shit, but everyone's like, this is very odd here. And at one point, Robinson asked a friend of his, a former employee of Nancy Robinson here to mail some letters for him from California as a favor.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And all of these things had a San Jose postmark that everybody was getting. April 9th, 2000, he's also like, oh, let me keep track of LaWicca, too. I forgot about her. So he sends suspicious correspondence after that, too. LaWicca's father exchanged 25 to 30 emails with his daughter after she moved to Kansas. What? Oh, yeah. And then at one point, LaWicca responded to emails.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Her tone was consistently abrasive and short out of nowhere and said, what the hell do you want? And telling her dad to leave her alone. Hmm. On April 14th, Loica's father received an email from his daughter's account. The message said she and another person had spent the last two weeks traveling the countryside in China.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
And they said, unlike the previous emails, the tone of this message was respectful and polite. Okay. OK, April. Having a great time. Love in China. Got the traveled the whole wall. April 27, 2000.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's posing as Jim Turner and discusses Troughton's disappearance in an email to a friend of Troughton claiming that Troughton had stolen his credit cards and that he had hired a private investigator to look into it. He after this guy, then he asked the friend who's a former. This is a guy who taught her the the BDSM shit, the Remington guy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Now it attracts 200 teams of grill people, and the grand champion wins $3,000, which doesn't seem like a lot for 200 teams competing for.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So Robinson asked Remington for information on all of Troughton's previous BDSM partners. This Remington guy contacts law enforcement, then provides the request and information via email. Law enforcement officers found a printed copy of the email chain in Robinson's possession later on.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So Robinson used the email to conceal Troughton's disappearance, but also to lure Troughton's friends into new BDSM relationships. That's what he wants. He got a mailing list, basically.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He got her Rolodex and was like, cool, let's fucking do this shit. So this is wild. In March 17, 2000, Robinson, posing as Tom, responded to an email describing himself as very aggressive and hardworking businessman and outlining his ground rules for a BDSM relationship. Taylor and Robinson, posing as Tom, continued to communicate and discuss BDSM relationships via email.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Okay, then Troughton's family receives a bunch of letters in May, postmarked from Veracruz, Mexico, and they're signed, Love you, Suzette. So, yeah, once again, the Robinson made arrangements for several letters to be mailed from Mexico in May of 2000. A woman named Lydia Ponce lived in Veracruz, Mexico. Her son, Carlos Ibarra, was the maintenance man that he was showing BDSM pictures to. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's how he knows these people. Wow. So this guy, he said, hey, you're Mexican, right? Yeah. Yeah, and he goes, you got any family there?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Make your mom mail these for me, will you?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow. Spring 2000. Vicki Newfield lives in Texas. She lost her job as a geriatric therapist in March of 2000, and her financial situation was not good. Newfield placed personal ads on BDSM websites and began emailing Robinson. They discussed potential relationships, and he sent her a slave contract to review. Right. On April 23rd, 2000, Robinson asked Newfield to visit him in Kansas.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Robinson said he was a wealthy businessman with a history of helping other professional women get established in the area. He promised to support her and said that they could possibly pursue a relationship. He arranged for Newfield to stay at the Extended Stay America in Overland Park. She arrived April 23rd, 2000. As Robinson requested, she brought her own sex toys along for the trip.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Well, think about what it costs to go there with all your stuff.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They engaged in sexual activity at various times during her stay at the morning on the morning of April 26th. Robinson told Newfield he was leaving for a business trip in Israel and wanted to discuss a plan for her to move to Kansas. Robinson said his business would pay movers to bring her belongings to Kansas that weekend.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Robinson asked Newfield to leave her sex toys with him, explaining it would give her extra incentive to return. Newfield left behind her rattan-type canes and a mesh bag full of sex toys she valued at $700.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
To make like a bunch of barbecue, you got to buy all the meat, which is expensive. All the sauce. You got to make that. You got the fucking you're going to smoke it or whatever. You got to get all that shit and you got to carry it there. Get a trailer. Three grand doesn't seem you're barely breaking even probably even if you win.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, there's a lot. We've talked about plenty of these on Your Stupid Opinion.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She then went to Texas, back to Texas again to wait for the movers who never arrived.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
No, he just stole her sex toys. He just... He said, ma'am, that's my dildo, and I'm taking it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yep. Wow. On May 22, 2000, she asked him to please return her sex toys, but he said no.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She filed a police report... What? ...for a bag full of sex toys, which is... I admire that. The fact that she's like, I don't give a fuck. I'll tell the cops every dildo I had in that fucking thing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Holy shit. So law enforcement found the sex toys several days later during a search of his storage locker that we'll talk about later on. Robinson sent money to Vicki. This Vicki I recently laid laid off psychologist from Texas who is suffering from depression and lack of meaningful relationships. This is Vicki Newfield here. Police had tapped his phone and were aware of his contacts with Vicky.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's being watched all the time now.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
When she visits him over Easter weekend, the police listened in the next room of the hotel while they engaged in very rough sex. Oh, my God. Robinson forced her into sex acts she did not want to do, took photos when she was tied up despite her explicit instructions not to, and slapped her much harder than she expected.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
These acts constituted sexual battery, and in addition, Robinson left her without any money and alone in a strange city for several days before returning. When he came back, he told her to go back to Texas and await further instructions, but kept all of her sex toys.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So, 2000 here. This is Jean. I've seen it in multiple places as Jean or Gina, like G-E-A-N-N-A or G-E-A-N-N-E. She's 34, divorced, unemployed accountant from Texas, came to Kansas City to begin working as Robinson's executive assistant for his hydroponics business. He put her in the hotel where he robbed Vicky's sex toys. So, yeah, she's divorced, 34, looking for a relationship.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She wants a BDSM relationship and a job at the same time. She's like, I'm looking for someone who can hire me in a job and beat the shit out of me at night.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
What do you think happens here? So they explored their likes and dislikes of BDSM shit extensively via phone and Internet, invited her to Kansas for a long weekend, put her up in a hotel where they engaged in various types of sexual things. Toward the end of her stay, they agreed that she would move to Kansas and work for one of his companies. Man, his dick must be magic.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
When she returned to Kansas in mid-May, Robinson installed her in the guest house suites in Lenexa where he had kept Suzette Troughton. They had sex on the afternoon of May 16th. One day that week, he didn't show up when they were supposed to do shit.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
On Friday, May 19th, Robinson telephoned her, told her he was on his way and instructed her when he arrived, she should be nude and kneeling in a corner of the room with her hair pulled back. When he entered the room, he grabbed her by the hair and began flogging her across her breasts and back. He insisted she pose for photographs even though she told him she didn't want him to take pictures.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He was particularly interested in photographing the marks his floggings had left on her body. He told her that he didn't like her attitude and if she didn't change, she would have to move back home. Listen, you're going to go to HR in a minute here. This is ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Fuck yeah. The judging begins at 1130 and the results share around 430 p.m. Competition day is focused on the contest. Activities for kids will be available, it says. So they won't be able to handle the pure competition that's happening here. We'll have a bouncy house.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
No pay. Christ, you're docked. He left the room. That's a bad thing to say because that could happen. He left the hotel room saying he would return. She became hysterical. She went to Kansas and all this type of shit. And he only seemed interested in punishing her and pleasing himself. She's gotten the shit beaten out of her. She went to the front desk of the hotel sobbing uncontrollably.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She insisted on seeing the registration card for her room. She discovered the man she had been seeing was named John Robinson, not James Turner. She tried to call the police but was too upset to complete the call. Luckily, the desk attendant was not upset at all and they completed it for her. Within minutes, Detective David Brown arrives there.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He's already two months deep into his investigation of Robinson, so he's like, couldn't be any better than this. He knew exactly what happened. He heard a brief version of her story, and he collected her belongings and moved her to another hotel. She explained how Robinson had beat her far beyond her desires. She said she didn't like pain or punishment or marks on her skin.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
She said, I'm a submissive, not a masochist.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So on May 31st or March 31st, 2000, the Lenexa Police Department began searching trash left at curbside for collection at Robinson's residence. On April 4th, they found an invoice for a package Robinson sent to Glines in California. That's the woman who mailed letters postmarked from San Jose at his request. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
On April 25th, investigators used a trash truck with the company's permission, the trash company, and collected three bags of his trash. They recovered a telephone bill for service at his Lynn County property, which documented a long-distance call placed from Robinson's trailer on the morning of Troughton's disappearance.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
June 2nd, a convoy of nine police vehicles enter the grounds of the Santa Barbara Estates. The trailer park is being overrun by cops.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Estates. How dare you. With fucking Dallas names on it. Estates. and surrounded his residence. Police detectives placed a dumbstruck John Robinson under arrest, charged him with sexual assault, and took him in handcuffs. So they then began executing a warrant authorizing them to search his home. They seized all of his computers.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They also found a blank sheet of stationery signed by Lisa Stasi more than 15 years earlier.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
In January 1985, receipts from the roadway in an Overland Park showing that Robinson had checked Stasi out of the hotel on January 10th that year, the day after she disappeared with him into the snow. So they also have warrants for his mobile home and his ranch, too. They search his storage facility where he rented two garages. Okay. Also, there they found two 55-gallon drums. Inside the drum...
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Inside the drums were the bodies of Sheila and Debbie Faith and Beverly Bonner. Three bodies, two drums.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He kept them for fucking years, Jimmy.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
This is horrifying. Wow. The second search warrant here, they bolt-cutted through his lock here of a 10-by-15-foot locker at the nearby storage facility in Olathe. Inside, they found a trove of items linking Robinson to Suzette Troughton, who's now missing for two months, Isabella Lewicka, who'd not been seen since the previous August.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Now, let's say barbecue isn't your thing.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
There was Isabella's Kansas driver's license, photographs of Lewicka nude in bondage, six-page slave contract listing 115 rules, sexual and otherwise, she had to obey, and a pillowcase and several BDSM sex implements. They searched his storage unit there. They found all this type of shit. They found Troughton's contact list with all their mailing addresses. They also found 31.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Maybe you're on a diet or you've got some health problems. Well, then you want to go to the spinach festival instead.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They found 42 envelopes pre-addressed to members of Troughton's family. What? Along with 31 pieces of pastel-colored stationery with Love You Suzette signed at the bottom.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
For years, he was going to keep doing this. Yeah. That's wild. The envelopes were pre-addressed, which is crazy, with S. Troughton written as the return address.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
I don't think so. No, I think they stopped. Because she went missing. There were also several letters with generic readings, such as Hi Dad or Hi Mom, handwritten at the top of the stationery. Oh, my God. Also, the pictures, the slave contracts like we talked about.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
At his ranch, remember his ranch he bought there, the 16 acres, with the help of a cadaver dog, they found more 55-gallon chemical drums. They find two of them, and inside of them are Suzette Troughton and Isabella LaWicca.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
You can't get two more opposite festivals than the spinach festival and the barbecue.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They are two yellow 55-gallon metal barrels near a tool shed across from his house. Right there, sitting right there. They're just out in the open, just to the south of a wooden shed located several yards to the southwest of the trailer on the property. They opened the barrels and confirmed each contained the remains of a human body.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They said inside one was a female body, nude with its head down, immersed in about 14 inches of liquid, the result of decomposition. This is just seep. They opened a second barrel and saw first a pillow and a red and green pillowcase. Pulled that out and found another female body, this one clothed, also soaked in the fluids of its own decaying.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
photographed and fingerprinted both barrels and left the contents inside. Using a black magic marker, they labeled the barrels Unknown 1 and Unknown 2. Now, the probation officer, remember Hames?
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
A detective telephoned Steve at home that day to say, holy shit, what we found at your boy's place here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He wanted Hames to know before it was in the newspapers. Hames said, it confirmed what I had always believed, but the move from theory to reality was chilling. Yeah. So the bodies here, they go to the medical examiner's office. A deputy coroner here looks at the barrel marked Unknown 1.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's the only way you should get off spinach. And squeeze the can into your mouth. Can squeeze. Can squeeze spinach. So they say the family-oriented Lenexa Spinach Festival, because you know the kids, there's nothing more they like than spinach. Can't get them to stop eating it. You got to hide the spinach in the house when the kids are around.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Across the face of the body in there, he found a large swatch of clothes secured by a rope, of cloth secured by a rope around the head, a blindfold. Mm-hmm. The hair was tied up in an 18-inch ponytail. There were several rings on the body, one on a little finger, one on a ring finger, one through piercings on each nipple, and five rings through piercings in and around the genitalia.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's very specific, yeah. Why? Yeah. Unknown to is LaWicca. She also died to from a blow to the left side of the head that fractured her skull. They said it appeared to be two blows overlapping, forming an oval indentation. The left side of her jaw had also been fractured. No signs she'd been able to defend herself. So they're each they're either tied up or he's a monster.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Um, that's Suzette and Isabella. The other one here. Um, wow, this is fucking crazy. Uh, they found the barrels. The other place, the first one we talked about here after this is at the store more for less and Raymore, the back of the locker, they saw barrels. First one was black and sealed with a gray lid. They opened it and discovered a body.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The two other barrels were located in the front of the black barrel. They were, they were covered in a large plastic sheet and, and cat litter had been sprinkled around the outside of the barrels inside the plastic. Some of the litter appeared to have absorbed a dark fluid. The barrels were wrapped together with two additional pieces of plastic sheeting held up with pieces of duct tape.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They developed four latent fingerprints of value from that sheeting. They matched Robinson. The officers did not open the second and third barrels, suspecting they too contained, obviously, probably human remains. They said, there are barrels and there's going to be bodies in them. You've got to come back, he told them. So they bring those people.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They empty the locker of everything else but the barrels. A crime lab technician opened the barrel. The first thing he saw was a light brown sheet, a pair of glasses, and a shoe. He removed the sheet and grasped the shoe, only to find it was attached to a leg. It just came off. It was decided to reseal the barrel and take all this shit to the medical examiner's office. All this content.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
One of the barrels was leaking fluid and it was feared that the bottom might have corroded and would give way when lifted. No. Yeah. A police officer was sent to a nearby Walmart to purchase three children's plastic wading pools.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They were slipped on. There's a Dora the Explorer fucking kiddie pool with corpses in it.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The chief medical examiner in Kansas City, a veteran of 3,800 autopsies, he opened it and said, quote, when they opened those barrels, this is one of the cops that was there. I've been around a lot of homicide scenes and I've smelled pretty old decaying bodies, but they've been exposed to the open air.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
These had been in the barrels and man, it was an extraordinarily strong smell and very uncomfortable. Yeah, the first body fully clothed. Second body was a T-shirt reading California State of Mind. In the mouth was a denture broken in half. The third was the body of a teenager wearing green pants and a silver beret. No defensive wounds. None of the victims able to defend themselves.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Packed with food, music, entertainment, hands-on activities, and craft vendors, experience the world's largest spinach salad. Oh, boy. That's an excuse. See, not see it. Experience it. You experience a spinach salad. You don't fucking see it. Holy shit. You can also submit your favorite dish to our recipe contest. There's plenty to do for everyone in the family, it says here.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So that is Beverly Bonner, Sheila and Debbie Faith. So now we found five people. Well, bodies all had multiple injuries to the head caused by blunt force trauma consistent with infliction by a hammer. Any number of the blows could have been fatal, they said. Wow. Debbie Faith here, they said the body was fully clothed and the subject was wearing an adult disposable diaper. So we know it's her.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
They believe the teenager, the victim was a teenager because x-rays revealed that several growth discs had not closed.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Holy shit. His family supports him.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Oh, yeah. A few days after his arrest, a spokesman for his family issued a written statement saying, and I quote, We have never seen any behavior that would have led us to believe that anything we are now hearing could be possible. While we do not discount the information that has and continues to come to light, we do not know the person whom we have read and heard about on TV.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
John Robinson is a loving and caring father and husband. We wait with each of you for the cloud of allegations and innuendo to clear, revealing at last the facts.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Innuendo. His lawyer said, I resent the fact that people are now claiming that Mr. Robinson either directly or indirectly is a serial killer. They found five bodies. They have five drums. There you go. You're already past serial killer. Yeah, he complained that Robinson's being held on $5 million bond and maximum security. His family, he's got a wife and at least two grown children.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
He issued a statement saying they're horrified. As each day has passed, the surreal events have built into a narrative that is almost beyond comprehension. While we do not discount the information, all that shit they're saying, this is bullshit. That's crazy. Now, baby Tiffany...
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Yeah, it's now 2000. She's, you know, 17 years old.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Donald and Helen begin to question the identity of Helen's birth mother. Heather's birth mother. Was she really someone who killed herself? Law enforcement compared her footprints to known footprints of Tiffany and found the prints matched.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
At least a baby. Well, because he could get money for that baby. That's why. If no one wanted the baby, he'd have just killed the baby, thrown it in a barrel. But yeah, that was five, six grand he was getting there. June 21st, 2000, a former acquaintance of John says that John may have been a member of a cult. Involving bondage, rape, and torture.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
According to this, it was Robinson's job in their cult to recruit women. These women were raped and tortured. The witness, who remains unnamed, saw Robinson participate in three Kansas City area rituals where no one was killed. But the women were tortured extensively, sometimes even carving the face and abdomen of the victims and cutting off body parts.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
June 26th here, they have kind of all the bodies ID'd at this point. September or October 12th, 2000, search of the apartment fuck pad that he rented there at Edgebrook Apartments that Lewicka lived in. They found hundreds of small reddish brown spots on the wall of one bedroom that are blunt. That would be smashing someone's skull and having their, yeah. That's a lot.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
The blood spots were roughly circular, less than one millimeter in diameter. That's spatter. The pattern of stains ran from the floor to the ceiling at approximately four to five feet in width from the middle of the south wall all the way to the east wall with the highest concentration at waist to chest level.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Wow. That's insane. He had, by the way, told his publishing broker that he needed a new graphic designer because he had to fire LaWicca because she had been caught smoking marijuana and deported.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So your recipe contest, you can either do an appetizer, salad, entree, or dessert. There's four categories. You prepare your best spinach recipe and turn it in at the Lion's Shelter.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Deported February 5th, 2001. The preliminary hearing of charges, which include two capital murder charges for Suzette and Isabella, two counts of fraud, 54 forgery charges, aggravated kidnapping of Suzette and all other charges brought back and for brought forth back in 2000. Probation officer said, I've dealt with a wide variety of characters, but never anyone like Robinson. He's just chilling.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
There are so many sides to him. There's the con man after money. There's the murderer. There's the sexual deviant. There's the cover up artist, the lies, the endless lies, the body collector, the body. Tell me BTK didn't fantasy about fantasize about being this guy. This is exactly what he wanted. Exactly.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
That's crazy. But this is exactly what BTK fantasized about doing. He tried it with his wife. She wasn't into it. So January 2003 got to speed through this here. The state's capital murder theory and counts two and three was that Robinson killed Suzette Troughton and Isabella Lewick, along with Sheila and Debbie Faith, Beverly Bonner and Lisa Stasi. And these killings were all connected.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
So they said that also there's tons of other crimes along the way. Obviously, we just gave you all the evidence in this episode here. The letters, too. They examined the envelopes that Troughton's family had received and said they're consistent with the ones that were mailed from Vera Cruz. Okay. Verdict comes in. Guilty of lots of murder.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Judge comes up here. This is Judge John Anderson III. He's like, from a John III to a John III, I'm about to fuck you good. He said, you, sir, may fuck off two death penalties.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
Turn it in and turn it out. Local restaurants and food establishments are invited to provide a spinach dip for the event.
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
and a life sentence for Lisa Stasi. Not bad. Additionally, sentenced him to another 246 months in prison for the aggravated kidnapping of Troughton, seven months for the theft of the sex toys...
Small Town Murder
#577 - Behind A Serial Killer's Mask - Lenexa, Kansas
A life sentence with parole eligibility after 15 years for the first-degree premeditated murder of Stasi and a pre-sentencing guideline sentence of 5 to 20 years or a post-sentencing guideline sentence of 13 months for the aggravated interference with Stasi's parental custody.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Cool. That property has a well for the house and yard and a cistern for drinking water.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
As you were trying to figure it out, my eyes were getting wider. Like, Jimmy, are you not? You're going to keep trying to pronounce this?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I don't want to offend the Dutch.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So if Clint Eastwood rides up on a horse, you got him covered. He can water his horses. He can water his horses. $574,000 for that. Which is 20 acres. Yeah, it's a lot of acreage, and that's not bad at all. But, I mean, you are in the middle of nowhere.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Did you get Yana out of Lillian? You started out off. I did. That was a journey to get there. I got Lillian out of Yana.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This is like all of Eastern Europe has fucking decided to...
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I was going to say, is that Ticazinia Part 2? I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You got a sister. Yeah, I don't know either. I picture a big ladle in a small well, and you just take it out and sip from it. I have no clue. Things to do here. The Chateau County Fair.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Thank you so much, everybody, from the bottom of our hearts. You people are goddamn fantastic. Thank you for all that you do for us all the goddamn time. We're going to keep it coming week after week. If you want to follow us on social media, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Drop down menu will tell you everywhere you need to go, want to go.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Found that. This is interesting. I look I'm looking for what they have here and they say they have carnivals and a carnival and adventure zone, bouncy houses, bumper boats, water slides, all this type of shit. But the main thing they're advertising in big letters with pictures is pig wrestling. Not shitting you.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And this isn't you dress two pigs up in different costumes and give them entrance music and see who wins. This is people wrestling pigs in the mud. And not nude girls or anything. This is people, not nude women.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No tits are out. This is crazy. There's just teenagers covered in mud wrestling people, wrestling pigs. It is Thursday, August 15th, and it is $10 for adults and $5 for kids. Do you want to watch this? Tickets are available for pre-purchase. You don't want it to sell out. No. Imagine if they got real wrestling up here. This place would be packed.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
San Diego is about sold out. Yeah. Irvine. You got to get your tickets there if you want to go there. D.C., Philly. Yeah. All that. Seattle at the Moore. All those. So get in there. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Get your tickets right now. Also, get yourself some Patreon.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I watched a boy wrestle a pig last week, so there's two big fellas going at it. It's going to be something.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. Oh, God. Demolition Derby also. I guess. I hope the pigs aren't involved in that. They're driving the cars also. That's just torture.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's just animal abuse. The Old Trail Museum also is something else to do. and you can learn about the many histories of the Rocky Mountain Front, explore ancient trails, dinosaur fossils, and exhibits, and also grizzly bears, large elk, waterfowl migrations, and the unique geology of the Rocky Mountain Front.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
local meteorological phenomena, as well as the color and cultural history of Chateau Montana, Teton County, and the greater Rocky Mountain Front region. There's all sorts of trails and shit like that. A hiker, hunter, angler, scenic driver wanted to explore and learn more about beautiful public lands. They should come here. Find out is what they say here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
A local wanting to know more about the rich history of the area, a Montana dinosaur trail explorer. Apparently they have a Montana dinosaur trail where it's like they found a lot of fossils there. So you walk around and go, this is where dinosaurs were. Sure. That's cool.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
neat um so crime rate in this town what we are interested in you'd figure it would be non-existent because how could it there's not even like a town square with somebody vandalize your farm like what else can you do knock down your crops yeah but one tagging and all of a sudden it's dangerous one person fucking spray paints their name on the side of a cow it's over it's all over
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This here is South Chicago. So property crime here is only about a quarter under the national average. So it's three quarters of the national average, which seems too high. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault is, I mean, just below the national average. Really? Really.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, I don't know what they're doing here, and I don't know how it's happening, but they're doing something.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And it's fucking weird. That said- Here we go. Let's talk about some murder here. Let's do it. Okay, let's do this. All right, let's go back in time a little bit to June of 1996. Sure. All right, so no cell phones yet. I mean, cell phones if you wanted to have a giant thing. It's-
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I'm sure you've listened to all the crime and sports episodes.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's tough. This is pager time right here. This is everybody walking around with a pager and shit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's great. No social media on a pager. It's just fucking the number of a pay phone with 911 after it. That's all you're getting.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You don't have to like sports. You just have to like, I don't know, crime and humor. So check that out. And you've listened to all of your stupid opinions, and you need more, and Patreon will provide that. This week, what you do is, patreon.com slash crime in sports. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get immediately hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, yeah. You can spell out boobs and all sorts of stuff. It's fun.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So June of 1996, let's talk about Dr. Brian Rain, R-E-I-N, Dr. Brian here. He is born in 1965. He is the son of Robert and Shirley Rain. And he has a couple of sisters here, Charlene and Teresa, who will come into everything later. He's born on Valentine's Day, 1965. Romantic, yeah. He's Cupid himself here. He's born in Rocky Ford, Colorado, which I'm not sure where that Rocky Ford.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Do you know that one? No, never heard of it. You're a Colorado guy. And he lived there and in Sugar City, Colorado as well.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
sugar city i don't know what the look on your face i said sugar city you're like nope 404 fucking not found is what i got out of you that was a look on your face searching searching nope that's got to be some western slope rifle area shit there's nothing over there no that's it has to be in 75 he moved to scott city uh
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Where the fuck is this man living? It's wild, isn't it? Wow. Graduated from high school. They have a school there, apparently. Yeah. In 1983, he attended Colby Community College in Kansas. Jesus. Colby Community College in Kansas.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's rough, for two years, and then Kansas State University for two years as well. Okay. So, yeah, he started out in community college and worked his way up to a four-year.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Once it gets flat, nobody cares anymore.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Once the mountains are over, they're like, oh, you can have all of that. That's garbage land. We don't want that. And nothing...
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No, that's what I mean. It's all shit flat.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
We go do shows in Denver and we'll talk and say to people, where are you from? And they're like, oh, about an hour and a half to the southeast. And we're like, what's it like out there? They're like, oh, it's weird. It's terrible. The weather's awful and crazy storms come in and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, shit, that sounds wild.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It does. So he then, after Kansas State University, he worked at the Sark Veterinary Clinic in Scott City. He's a vet, not like a human doctor. Okay. Animal doctor here. Maybe they use him to check those pigs after they're done wrestling. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He could probably just check everybody, I think. It's fine. He knows. So in 1994, he moved to Geraldine, Montana, where he and his sister, Charlene, owned and operated Prairie's Edge Veterinary Services. And they also have an auxiliary office in Denton, Montana as well.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So they have all this going on here. So at this point, not a bad life. He's a 30-year-old veterinarian.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I feel like you're going to do very well with the ladies. Oh, a 30 year old veterinarian. I care for the puppies. And, you know, oh, man, that's that's a this guy's going to do well up here. And but he goes to the middle of nowhere here and he ends up living in a he rents a pretty isolated trailer near Geraldine, which doesn't really fit in with the jet setting lifestyle of the rest of them.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I'm 30. I'm a vet. Now he's like, yeah, come to my rural trailer. Huh?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
All right there, access to that. And then you get new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it all. You get it all. Everybody, only $5. And this week, which you're going to get for Crime and Sports, we are going to talk about disasters. We've done industrial disasters. We've done hot air balloon disasters.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He rented a trailer house located on a property owned by Richard and Marlene Prostman. Richard Prostman.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Dick Prostate Man. That's all I could say. I saw that. At first, I misread it as Prostate Man, and then I saw Richard, and I'm like, that is crazy. He's Dick Prostate Man. And the woman who... The wife of this combo here, Marlene... Helped Brian organize the clinic and get that set up and later became his office manager. So people like him, obviously, if he gets people to do that.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He opened up the business, started to grow, and then he opened up the satellite office in Denton, Montana. And, yeah, things are unfolding for this guy. It's working. He's certainly getting it going, yeah. It's all working. He's had some relationships, obviously. Like I said, he's got to be popular with the ladies here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
One woman, Jodi Lee, she said that she had a close relationship with him all throughout 94 and 95. And the relationship became romantic in early 1996. Okay. Yeah. OK. She also said, though, that she suspected while they were together that he was dating another woman at this during this time. I don't know how suspected there's 200 people here. Go to the bar.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And if he shows up with her, you there it is like, yeah, there's not it would be so hard to sneak around in a town of 200 people.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Wild. Their relationship started to deteriorate by May of 1996. And apparently they had a they planned a last minute trip to Yellowstone. And she said that Brian called her and canceled her, canceled it at the last minute. Like when he was supposed to come pick her up, he's like, no, we can't. We're not going. Never mind. So then she was like, yeah, there's got to be somebody else here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So she went on the trip without him. Oh. Look at that. I don't need you to go to Yellowstone.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Fuck it. Yeah, go. Went by herself. And while on the way back to town from Yellowstone, she stopped in Gardner and was talking to somebody and got offered a job and decided to take it. Wow. How weird is that? I mean –
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You've got to accept it. Just on the weirdness of who would have thought I would stop for gas here or stop at this restaurant.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
We're going to do just a bunch of just disasters, things happening, buildings exploding. Crazy things, steel melting people, you name it, we're going to talk about it. Crazy stuff. Then for small town murder, this is a weird one. We usually do a lot of debunking. That's kind of a thing that we do of dumb shit that people think.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's very weird. And also, you're stopping at a rest stop and someone offers you a job. Has that ever happened to anybody out there in the world? So then she said after that she heard that Brian was dating another woman. And this was just like she takes the job and moves to Gardner and then starts hearing that he's with another woman. So she's like, okay, that's what was going on there.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I was right. That's right. So her sister, Jennifer, Lee's sister, Jennifer, basically told everyone that she could tell that he was a womanizer. He's a womanizer, this one. He had two girlfriends.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He's a 30-year-old vet. Are you kidding me? He's got a puppy under each fucking arm walking around. Chicks are flocking to him.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Also, maybe she needed her Parvo shot. We don't know. We have no idea what her needs are.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So this woman's sister, who calls him a womanizer here, said she got a call from a stranger, a man. They don't know each other personally, never met before. She never heard of this guy. But he called to try to track down contact information to discuss something with Brian. The thing he wanted to discuss with Brian was the fact that Brian, in his estimation, this man's, was fucking his girlfriend.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This week, we are going to do an episode on psychics that actually succeeded in what they were trying to do. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, psychics that found bodies and stuff like that. The ones that were right. The ones that were right. We'll figure that out. So Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of that, and you get a shout-out at the end of the show, too. Oh, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Got to sort that out. So didn't like that. So now this woman who's been calling him a womanizer is like, see, I told you. Yeah, womanizer. That guy. So now these two are gossiping. The sister of Brian's ex-girlfriend and the apparently current slash ex-boyfriend of his current girlfriend are now gossiping about the girl.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. Who knows? So this sister said that she told this guy that Brian dated at least three women in a short amount of time. He's a womanizer and she does not like how he treats women. Just dropping them willingly. He's not beating them up or doing anything. Single and shit. They're just single. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. This is just kind of the single life.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She she later said that she felt guilty for making those statements because she said, you know, because this is Montana and they're like, you know, she said, quote, the opinion was, quote, not mine to give. You know, she's like, you know, hey, not for nothing is what she just said. Yeah. That's the Montana version of, you know, none of my fucking business.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. So this lady in question that this man calling the sister complaining about is a lady named Ann Wishman. Yes, yes. If you switch your H, if you move the H over to where you are, it's the same letters. We can make Wisman out of it. Making it Wish, yep. That's pretty fucking funny. It's you with a speech impediment. Well, it's what everybody fucking called me.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
My entire fucking childhood. It's better than... Whoa, I don't even know how to say it. How do you say it? What the hell is your last name?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
My favorite mispronunciation was a gym teacher who did it for a year and a half and called me Patraglio for a year and a half. A year and a half. I'm like, not my name. Thank you. Patraglio. All right. I was just, I laughed.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Shrug. I'm like, whatever. So my friends would be like, hey, Patraglio. They'd call me that too. So it was fun. Now, Ann Wishman, she's born in 1974. So she's about nine years younger than Brian. Her family owns a farm near Geraldine. So on the outskirts of Geraldine, everything is outskirts of Geraldine because there is no real Geraldine.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So apparently sometime in 1996 here in May, they spent and and Brian spent an evening together talking. And at the end of the night, after a night of just saying and spilling their guts to each other, they decided that they're going to talk to each other again later in the week. And that's how this started.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Jimmy will mispronounce your name all to hell, but that's okay because he wants to get it right. It's the, you know, the feeling is there.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So this is the best talking we've had in a while. So they talked a lot about her cat probably, too. But still, it's a good talk. So this all started, who's the guy she's with now that's calling to complain that she's having sex with Brian is a man named Thomas Juraski. Juraski? Juraski? J-A-R-A-C-Z-E-S-K-I.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Something. Thomas. Let's go Thomas on him. Tommy J. Tommy J. Tommy J. was born in 1973. So he's right around Ann's age. And they got together when Ann was just barely 18 years old. And he was 19 or whatever. That's when they started hooking up in 1992. So this relationship has been going on a while before Brian comes into the picture here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's, you know, four years now, his family, the Tom, the Thomas family, we'll just say the direct Jerez fam who they leased a farm in the Geraldine area. So same thing. He grew up on a farm in the area. So did she. And they both attended college in Bozeman. And that's how they met each other and started dating. or they knew each other, but that's how they started dating was then.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Um, now he's got a brother named Randy Jureski or whatever the fuck it is. And they lived in, they live on the farm, but in separate houses in the farm, there's separate buildings, tons of outbuildings. They live in two different ones. So they don't, you know, see each other's comings and goings. Exactly. That'll come in handy later.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That said, it is disclaimer time.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So December, 1995, after, you know, about three years of being together, uh, Ann and Thomas here moved into an apartment together in Great Falls.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
An hour and ten minutes away or whatever. But the problem is as soon as they move in together, he really, really steps up his jealousy a lot. Yeah, Thomas starts getting real possessive of her and disapproved of any associations with other men, basically. No talking to other guys. And he didn't like it when she went out with her friends either.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This is a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. There also is murder that happens. And you might say, how do you mix comedy and true crime? Very easily. First of all, here's one thing we do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You know, controlling, obviously. I get the other men thing. You know, that could be like, hey, who's that guy? Or, you know, go tell your wife you have a ton of women friends and they'll really be thrilled with you for that. So that's just asking questions. But going out with her friends? What do you mean? Don't be an asshole like that.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Let her go out. If you don't let her go out or you make her feel weird about it, she's just going to want to fucking go out and even more. So you're not helping your situation, Eddie.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You're forcing dick, guy. Don't do it. So according to Ann, Thomas had a pretty good temper on him and would punch a wall or throw things around when he was angry. He's that kind of guy. Sounds great. Sounds like a lovely gentleman here. Immature is what it is. He doesn't apparently hit her, but he does punch holes in walls and throw shit around, which is not great either, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's not the same thing. It's on the road to.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's on the road to here, for sure.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, kick a fucking door or some shit, but not the... Not all the time.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, absolutely. If you go in and see lots of holes in the drywall, you go, oh boy, bad things have happened here. So June 2nd, 1996, that's when all of this is going down because late May is when Thomas called the other lady's sister to complain about... Dr. Brian fucking his girlfriend. So June 2nd, 1996. This is after Ann and Brian have had their chat all night and they want to talk again.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That was earlier in the week. So Ann calls Brian Rain and leaves a message for him. Leaves on the answering machine at the time. And so Brian returned the call and left a message for her. She wasn't home. Problem is she lives with Thomas. And this isn't cell phone days.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This is an answering machine with a blinking light in the middle of the living room, and whoever presses play is going to hear it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Tiny little tape and a little blinky light.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's pretty easy to do there. And we kind of think that the humor aspect of it kind of maybe disarms it a little bit. So it's not so creepy and so weird. And, you know, there's plenty of jokes to be made around stupid things. It's not the actual murder. That's the funny part.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Which anybody would be a little pissed at that. That's not out of the realm of normal for being pissed at. Like I said, reverse that around and have your girlfriend or wife find that. It's not good.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No, no, no. This is definitely, you're going to make somebody's, somebody who does drywall is going to profit from this.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
For sure. So Thomas knew where Ann was, so he called her up and asked her, quote, what the hell's going on?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
What the fuck? So she said, this guy Brian asked me out.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Thomas said that at that moment, he said, I knew right then she must have cheated on me. That was it. He jumped right to it. Thomas called Brian now because he has his number because 96 is caller ID. So he knows the number. He calls Brian here and leaves a message for him saying, quote, I don't know what your intentions are, but they're going to stop.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So the next day, Ann drove out to Great Falls to meet with Thomas. And Thomas said, listen, whatever happens, happens. Whatever has been passed in the past, I am going to change. I'm a changed man. I am the one for you. Just love me and don't go out with this other guy and everything's going to be better. The walls are going to be.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Walls will be pristine from now on. Everything is going to be fine, I swear. So he said, I don't want to break up. I want to make this work. So the next day, she broke up with him. She broke up with Thomas, not Brian. So this is a four and a half year relationship now. Yeah, done. So she immediately started hanging out with Brian. And I mean, to her credit, she broke up with the guy.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's not like she was like, oh, OK. And then, you know, let him on and all that. She said, no, I like this guy broken up, moving on. That's that. You guys are fucking 23 or whatever. Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah, that's that's what happens. So, yeah, she breaks up with him. Now, Thomas's sister, Sandy J., she was asked how Thomas was feeling after the breakup.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And she said he just he said he just keeps thinking it's a nightmare and he thought that they had a good relationship. I don't know what happened. I thought everything was great. I thought everything was great. He said he realized that he probably should have done more with Ann and that he would like to take her to Chicago to see her family and all that good stuff.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And she also said he just kept saying he was going to give her her space and maybe she'd come around.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So if that sounds good to you, wow, you have a good story ahead of you. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever, ever go together, I don't know. Maybe the show isn't for you, but maybe it is. Either way, no complaining later. That said, I think it's time, everybody. Let's all sit back. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
this is what i've done wrong what have i done to cause this okay this this a b and c and okay maybe she'll come around if not i don't know now later on though sandy says the sister sandy says that she describes a conversation with that thomas had with his mother while sandy was present his mother's name is dorothy and uh this is about a week after he and ann broke up here
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
and she says, and I quote, Yeah, and after they, Ann and Tom, had broke up, he had gone home, and I just think within the first week of them breaking up, and Mom was cooking hamburgers for supper, and Tom just went to his bedroom, and on his way back to the bedroom, he asked Mom if she had a minute that they could talk, and then he told her he just couldn't handle it, and he said he felt like doing himself in.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh. And mom said, oh, no, don't do that, you know. And he was just crying really hard. And by the end of the talk, he was feeling a lot better. He had no one to talk to about this.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He needed to get a good cry out and had nobody to do it. That's what it was. So he went to mom and did it. Mom will always listen to you, so that's good.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Dorothy and the sister both said that Thomas was crying and very upset and that the mother told him and the sister, too, told him that he should probably maybe try to get professional help. Like, you really seem to be in a funk here. Maybe talk to somebody a couple times. Maybe they have some tricks and tools for you to be able to get over this type of shit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So he considers that and then obviously doesn't do anything like that. No, no. That's the healthy thing to do. We're not doing that. I am going to stew in my room and punch holes in the wall, though. So Anne also talks about his breakup, the reaction here. She received a phone call and a letter from him shortly after they broke up. And here's a quote from her about those two things.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Quote, then he had wrote me a very long letter before, like a 25-page letter.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And this is handwritten. wow that's a manuscript that's a that's a novella at that point yeah you you could have a structure and an arc and a story in that shit you man so there's got to be a lot of shakespeare plays shorter than that shit yeah it just keeps going to i'm really sad my mama says i should get out dr seuss taught many lessons in way less jesus Way less time than that. No shit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She said this was right after we broke up and went on and on about one about on and on and on about our relationship and how he wanted us to get back together and get married and have kids and do all this stuff.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And he was told me that I should save the letter and not do anything with it. And I asked because he might need to make and I asked because he might need to make copies. And he's because that kind of I it didn't make sense to me. And he goes, well, if I go to counseling, I'm the counselor might need to have a copy of it and read it to see what what's wrong with me or something like that.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So this is like a yeah, he's written a manifesto essentially. And he's like, I might need to take this to a therapist. Probably he should have saved the letter and just brought it to a therapist. Cut out the middle man.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. Of her. Yeah. She doesn't need this at all. So and I just said, OK, fine, whatever. And I said, well, that that was the night that he was very upset and talking about killing himself. And I just said, well, maybe you should go talk to somebody now. Maybe you need, you know, you know, maybe you need to go see a counselor right now. And because he'd talk and he'd be crying.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And then I heard his dad knock on the door and he goes, yes, I'm on the telephone in a very normal voice. And then he'd start talking to me and he was crying and upset. So, yeah, he cleared himself. No, I'm good, dad. Great. And then back to her in a weepy, which people do people.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, especially if you're like a Montana farmhand and your dad like you don't want him to fucking he's going to come in here and beat the shit out of you. Probably. What are you doing? Get out there and shoe a horse or something. Jesus Christ calling your names and shit. So God forbid. So Thomas isn't taking this well at all. Let's just be realistic here. He's not taking it well.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are doing this. We're going to Montana this week. Oh, yeah. To Geraldine, Montana.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He's done healthy things so far. Yeah, it's a breakup. He tried to get her back.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He's just doing it for the family. Yeah, he's just sad and telling people. Everyone's thinking he's just going to kind of, it'll all work itself out.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This week in Geraldine, Montana, a mystery unfolds when a veterinarian is brutally murdered and the suspects include girlfriends, ex-girlfriends, girlfriends, ex-boyfriends, and others. But will the bungling of the crime scene make it impossible to solve? Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He'll punch himself out. Yeah, and he's going to be tired, and then that's that. He'll meet somebody else. As soon as he finds some other chick, he's going to be fine. He's a young guy.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And then find a girl with some nice boobs. That's what he's going to do.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, so during the month, during this June month, he makes numerous phone calls to Anne, to her family. And when I say her family, I mean her mother, her brother, her father, sister, everybody and her friends, even all of this to try to reestablish a relationship. He's just it's crazy. So here's a rundown of some of these here and kind of what Thomas is up to.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
June 4th, 1996, Thomas quits his job in Great Falls.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
yeah so he is done done like he is he's imploding this whole he's having yeah that's what it is everything reminds me of her he was living in great falls with her so now he's going back home and he returns to the family farm in geraldine yeah so the farm is seven to ten miles by the way from brian dr brian's trailer okay it's in the area of there
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, Geraldine. Geraldine. And this is in central Montana. It's about an hour and ten minutes to Great Falls. That's the closest. This place is the middle of nowhere. This is like you don't want to have your car break down out in this area. You are screwed.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
On June 4th, 1996, Thomas called up a woman named Trish Judman, who is a close friend of Anne's, and he calls her up just to see if Anne has talked about their relationship with her. Oh, no, she's way too busy talking about this new guy's dick. Boy, she is excited about it. So, wow. Thomas believed that it was this woman, Trish, who introduced Anne to Dr. Bryan. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So he wants to kind of know shit. She this woman said, yes, she got a call from Thomas who asked about their relationship. She later said Trish said, I did know more about what was going on with Ann and Brian than I told Tom that I knew. But I didn't want to create more of a problem than there was already was. I didn't think it was smart to do that. Right.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, especially you're not going to get in the middle of it. You go, I don't know. Oh, shit. I don't know anything about it. Yeah. No clue. So Thomas made a phone call to Heather Buck, who was another close friend of Anne, who was living in the state of Washington at the time. He's calling long distance. He's paying for this. Exorbitant amounts of money at the time.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So this lady, Heather Buck, said that Thomas called her and asked numerous questions about Brian and Ann's relationship. She said she told Thomas that Brian had dated other girls around Geraldine and he had used them. That's what Thomas is telling the friend. Like, this guy's a womanizer.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I talked to his, you know, ex's sister, and she said, womanize her. He dated all these girls around Geraldine and had used them. And it's not that he's jealous, see. He's just concerned that Dr. Bryan is using Anne, and he's very concerned for Anne's well-being. Yes, using her for sex, which she is happy to take. Maybe she's using him, man. They're using each other. She used me. I used her.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She used me, but neither one cared. We were getting our share. We're working on their night moves, Jimmy. What do you want from me? What am I supposed to do with that?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's what I mean. I feel like this is an appropriate environment for that song.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They're night moving like a motherfucker. So that's what happened. This woman, Heather Buck, described the conversation as quite bizarre. And she said she could not understand why Tom was calling her since they weren't friends.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's not like they all hung out as a group. She barely knew this guy and was like, I don't fucking know you. I don't care.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
If you could completely dismiss your loyalty to a longtime friend and transfer it to a stranger, maybe do some stuff for me.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So apparently after the phone call was over, they never spoke again. He didn't call back or bother. But Thomas also called Anne's sister, Marie, who lived in Illinois. Again, this is costing him money.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's really sparse, and it's about five hours and ten minutes to Hot Springs, Montana, which was our last episode a long time ago, too. It was 70 episodes ago, 80 episodes ago. Episode 490, Hot Tub Horrors. Remember that? The guy in the hot tub with the other... That was a creepy one. Oh, yeah. This is in Chateau County. Chateau. I don't know. It's French-looking.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He doesn't have long-distance money. He's got no LD funds at this point in time. None. So remember what a big deal a long-distance call was? Oh, my God. Pre-cell phones when it was just all everything is included and everything?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Dude, I told you about my grandmother with the 10-10-2-20. At 20 minutes when it would go to another dollar, she would be like, oh, okay, we got to go now. She'd start getting panicky. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
All right, bye. She hangs up the phone. Well, I found out this is going on. Jimmy's 4'8". He's 16 now. They're too poor to talk on the phone for too long.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Seems pretty sad there. Oh, God. So, yeah, this is fucking hilarious. So he calls Marie. Marie said, yes, she did receive a call from Thomas in June. This is about two weeks after the breakup. Marie, the sister, said she was surprised by the call because, again, not like they talked on their own all the time here. She said Thomas poured his heart out to her.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Stop pouring your heart out to people.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Good God. He's like, this is crazy. He's like a fucking John Cusack in a John Hughes movie. Like, this is wild.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No. And Anne's just going to get calls from her friends and family going, this guy is pathetic. Calling and calling. That's not going to help.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He was. He told the sister that Brian is older and a womanizer. He's older than her and using her. Don't you know? Taking advantage of her.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Now, she said, well, I don't know this guy very well, and neither does she. And he said, well, I'm concerned for her welfare. And the sister indicated Thomas told her he'd been in her house and read her diary since then. Oh, Tommy. Why would you tell her sister that, number one? I know for a fact.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I also broke into her house and read her private shit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Marie, the sister, said that Thomas told her that he had been by Brian's house late at night. And found her vehicle there. He's like, I know. Because Marie's like, you don't even know if they're seeing each other. You have no idea what's going on. He's like, I do, too. I broke in. I read her fucking diary. Then I drive past his house at 2 in the morning. And guess whose car's outside?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
See? He's confessing to so many crimes. It's not me. I'm not the crazy one. I'm the criminal. I'm a criminal.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So according to Marie, Thomas told her that Rain and Wisman, that Ann and Brian were sleeping. I've said Wisman way more in my life than Wishman, so it's going to come out like that. We're sleeping together. He's like, they're sleeping together. Yeah, like adults. Who cares? This is not my concern who my sister fucks.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Marie said that Thomas told her he tried everything and he didn't know what else to do. Oh, boy. Marie's like, I don't know. It's not me, and I live in Illinois. I don't care.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. This is crazy because Thomas is still calling Anne. He called her on June 5th, and she told him she needed her space and asked him to leave her alone for a while and that she wasn't going to change her mind overnight. She's buying time. That's what that is. Maybe in two weeks he'll find somebody else and move on. So Ann told Thomas that their breakup, she said this isn't a sudden thing.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's got an E-A-U at the end of it, so it's French. Yeah, it's hardcore French. I assume French trappers did this.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This has nothing to do with Brian. This has been coming for a long time and these are just the events that pushed it over the cliff. That's all it is. So June 6th, 1996, according to here, Thomas and then Anne as well.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He called her in Geraldine where she was staying with her family and asked her to come to Great Falls for the weekend so they could spend some time together, which the day before he tells she tells you, leave me alone. Give me space. I don't want to be with you. I haven't wanted to be with you for a long time. Blah, blah, blah. The next day he goes, let's go for away for the weekend.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
What do you say? Oh, my. No. She said she's not going to do it. Not happening. And that's that. And he also called her on Friday, June 7th, and said, how about that weekend? And she said, still no, stupid. I will be knee deep in veterinarian penis by then. I won't be there. So Saturday morning, June 8th, he calls her again. This is every day now he's calling her since they broke up.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, Chateau. Area code 406 here. It was originally created just as a stop on the Milwaukee Railroad. That's the only reason why this is a place. And yeah, it was named for, and this happens so often, it was named for Elmira Geraldine Rockefeller.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And he calls her and said that he was dying to see her. I'm dying to see you. He said, I want to see you so bad. So they talked on the phone for a couple hours, apparently. And he kept saying that I want to come see you. I want to see her and see you. And she said, I don't want to see you. It's too soon. I told you to give me some space. You call me every day.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So he said, all right, all right, you don't want to see me? You want your space? Okay, I'll give you your space. And then he showed up at her house. So this is not working. He showed up at the Wishman Farm in Geraldine as Anne was getting ready to go to a dance in Geraldine. Goddamn. I assume of the square variety.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I can only imagine. Certainly a shape.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I'm not sure. It wasn't like No Diggity playing in the background, I doubt. I'm trying to think what was out in 96 to dance to.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
One of the two. Yeah, there you go. Oh, they were probably still achy, breaky, hearting up there. It's about three years late, but shit takes a long time to get to Montana. I just think it gets there last. That Billy Ray boy, a handsome feller. So he shows up with a present for her, he said. I got a present for you. He said, let's go for a drive and have a drink. And she said, no.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Let's do some drinking and driving. That's what he said. Let's go for a drive and then get a drink. So he told her, she said no, and he said he wanted to go to, I want to go to town with you.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I want to go to town. So Ann said that Thomas had brought a bottle of liquor with him, and when she indicated finally that he realized she was not going to go for a drive with him, he just started drinking right there at the house. Just in the yard. All right. Start without you. So Ann asked him, could you please not drink here? Because I don't, like, what are we doing?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I'm trying to make you jealous. See? I got my lips on it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, look at that. She likes it, too. And then he got upset and took off. Okay. All right. He left. So then Ann called Trish Judeman, her friend from before, as he called, who was bartending in Geraldine. and told her that Thomas was upset, and he's drinking, and if he comes to town, if he comes on into town, you go ahead and let Brian know to look out for him. These people need cell phones badly.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I mean, given messages through the bartender.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You had to leave mess. You had to wonder where someone was, know their number, try to find them. And if they're not there, leave a message to, Hey, you know, and people would actually deliver them too. Cause it was an essential part of communication back then. So June 15th, 1996, about a week goes by, uh, Thomas encounters Anne and Geraldine. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Runs into her, I'm sure by pure accident, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Just come for a ride. That's all I'm asking. Come for a ride.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He's not getting it. So maybe she thinks, maybe if a once and for all, if I can get it across to him, whatever. So she initially said no, but then figured that she'd go hang out with him, get it over with. Literally said, I'll get it over with. And then she thought, maybe he'll leave me alone after that. Maybe if I give him this little bit, he'll go, okay, fine.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
who was the wife of William Rockefeller, who was the director of the railroad. So they were trying to kiss his ass, and they named it after his daughter. Kiss everybody's ass. This county, by the way, the entire county only has 5,800 people in it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So as they're driving around, he then drives out of town toward the middle of nowhere and starts to really press on her to get back together. Um, she, and he's accusing her of, you were always just looking for somebody else to sleep with. That's what he keeps saying to her. You're always just looking. So she got angry and said, take me the fuck back to Geraldine.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And he said, no, not going to do it. So she tried to jump from the moving truck.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's that bad. She's like, I am in the fuck out of here. Take me back. No, take me back. No. And she said, all right, fuck you. I'm jumping out of the truck. And it will not be. She won't be told what to do. No, she won't be. She's going to do what she wants to do.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So he grabbed her and held her from jumping out and then gunned it. Went even faster. Don't do that. You want to jump out. It's going to hurt. Let me tell you something.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's going to be something. So he kept pressing her about getting back together. And according to him, she just would not give in at all. Just which is weird. You're holding her hostage right now while going 75 miles a fucking hour. Weird.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Can I buy you a drink won't do it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. If you're going to jump, you're going to die is not the way to get it done.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
they are not interested just move on so he eventually said okay fine and turned around he eventually she was like a stone wall and he was like well this isn't working so he turned around and went back to Gerald to Geraldine and dropped her off she told everybody when she got back she didn't feel safe the way he was acting she didn't want to be alone that night either because she thought he would come back so she asked Brian if she could stay at his place that night see what you did there Thomas
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The whole county. So this is the middle of nowhere. The county seat is Fort Benton. The county was established in 1865 as one of the original nine counties of Montana. And it was named after Pierre Chateau Jr., a fur trader. See, knew it. I knew it was a fur trader who established a trading post that became Fort Benton, which was, you know, is the county seat here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You might as well have inserted his penis into her. Yeah. Guide it. You might as well have said, hold on, guys. I got this. Don't worry about it. There you go.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Knock it off. That's what happened, man. So June 16th, 1996, 1.30 in the morning. Oh, boy. Now it's going to get out of regular daytime hours here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Crime time. Totally. Thomas is moving into night watchman hours here. He's got a different thing going on.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Crime o'clock here, 1.30. So Thomas figured out that no one was home at the Wishman farm. Nobody there. And he went into her house and went into her bedroom. And this isn't the apartment they shared. This is her family's home. This is breaking and entering. This is burglary. This is not good.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's what I mean. This is great. And some farmer dad's not going to pop out with a shotgun either. It's pretty ballsy of you.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So this is when he searched around and found her diary again. Because he had read it when they were in the house together, but now they're here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
How good his dick is, I want to hear about it. And in this, it's just her talking about how great Brian is.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, man. In there, he read that she had, quote, met the man of her dreams, Brian.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's fuck. And not only that, she couldn't wait and wanted to spend the rest of her life with him.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh. He's like, fuck out in the fucking.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, my God. And she also wrote that she did not want anything to do with Thomas. And also, she didn't want Thomas to find out that she was so into Brian because she was afraid of what he might do to himself.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Holy shit. So that's at 1.30 a.m. By 3.22 a.m., he's calling Brian's house and asking for her at 3.22 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, my God. So Brian told him that Ann wasn't there. So Thomas then called Ann's apartment, the one in Great Falls, and she didn't answer the phone there either. So Thomas then said, well, I can't let this just fucking sit in the middle of the night. Gets in his truck and drives to Brian's trailer to speak to Brian and ask him if Anne is there. Dude. Stop doing all of this.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He needs a friend is what he needs. Sure does. Not a mom. Yeah. Not a sister. Not a brother. He needs a buddy that's going to go, bro, what the fuck are you doing, man? Yeah. Fuck that shit. No, hell no. I know this girl. She's got lots of friends. You don't need this. This is fucking, yo, bro, you're crazy. You look crazy. You know that, right?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I mean, you won't believe him. You need four guys around you. Yeah. Just fucking pinballing you with insults. That's what you need. Maybe some mockery, some derision.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You had a friend like this, didn't you? Oh, I'm that friend.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So the Chateau County is the home to the Chippewa Cree tribe as well. And on the Rocky Boy Indian Reservation.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm the guy for some reason. I'm the guy that everyone tells everything to. I don't know why. Since I was a small child, they tell me all of their personal bullshit. I've had friends of mine show up knocking at my door four o'clock in the morning with tears flying down their eyes. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? And they're telling me all this shit about their girl.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
While you're there, grab my copy of Spanglish, too, if you could.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
What are you doing? Oh, my God. That's the craziest request ever. Go over there, fucking look around, grab my copy of 50 First Dates and fucking jet, bro. Come back. That's the craziest.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, my God. As soon as you walked out, she was like, ha-ha, I got his click DVD. I win, and popped it right in the DVD player. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I don't want her watching it without me. I assure you she already threw that shit away.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Rocky Boy. This area contains part of the Lewis and Clark National Forest as well.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She frisbeed that shit across the parking lot of the apartment complex immediately.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's the greatest fucking dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
One-click DVD. oh god so thomas shows up looking for his click dvd at brian's house ducks on the door brian tells him she ain't here bro yeah and her car's not there either so you kind of knew that to begin with yeah when you pulled up you didn't see her car did you so thomas goes okay and then leaves I hope that Brian was like, and fuck off, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Don't come back here. Jesus Christ. So I will treat you like a horse with a broken leg and put you down.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You're fucking up my life. You're cramping my style. I'm drying out over here. Come on. So at 6 a.m., this was at 3.30 in the morning, he's over at the house. Oh, fucking night. At 6 a.m., he calls Brian again.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So it is a very pretty area if you want to see land go on forever kind of a thing. So reviews of this town.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
But this time, he doesn't say he's Thomas. Yeah. He pretends to be Anne's brother, Carl. Oh, for heaven's sake. Carl Wishman. So, Jesus Christ. And he tells Brian, I really need to speak with my sister. If I'm Brian, I'm like, this is too much trouble. I've been with this girl two weeks. I can't even get a decent night's sleep. This is crazy. I'm dumping this chick.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Fuck, somebody else. So Anne gets on the phone. She was there, hiding. So Anne gets on the phone, and as soon as she hears the voice, she knows it's not her brother. She knows it's Thomas. So she said that immediately, basically she got on the phone and said hello, and Thomas immediately started with just a tirade of calling her a tramp and a slut and a whore and everything else.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So she hung up the phone. She hung up on him, obviously. So obviously he called back, clearly spoke to her again, told her that now she's not a tramp and a whore and a slut. Or maybe she is in his mind, but he only called her that because he's worried about her. Oh, OK. I don't want you to be those things. He said, yeah, he said, I called your house at the farm there and there wasn't any answer.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So I went looking in town for you and I couldn't find you. And I also read your journal and your diary. So, you know, I didn't know what was going on here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Maybe you wrote down where you're maybe no shit. By the way, that call to the Marie Gardner lady who was like, yeah, I don't know. That was a 34 minute phone call. These are not two-minute conversations. It is a lot to get him off the phone. That's the sister who lives in Chicago. So that's a long-distance, 34-minute call he put out.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's got a lot here. Now reviews of this town, there are zero reviews of this town because there are very few people in this town. Fast. But what I found is literally the only establishment reviewable in the area because there is no restaurants. There's no anything in this town.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I guess so. Back then, if someone called you long-distance, it was so expensive that no matter what they had to say, you felt like you owed it to them to listen because they were paying for this. Literally, someone could be calling you names and you're like, this is costing them like three bucks a minute. This isn't, you know.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, man. So June 18th, 1996 now. Brian shows up for work at his clinic and gets out of his car and he's ready to start another day of helping the animals out. And he discovers that a large rock has been thrown through his front window of his clinic. Oh, boy. So we kind of we get that here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Not a lot of mystery, probably. Doubt it's kids. Yeah. So June 21st, 1996. Yeah. And and her brother now, Carl, actual Carl, not fake Carl on the phone. Fake phone, Carl. And her brother and Carl's girlfriend were about to drive to Geraldine at approximately 1030 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So I guess Carl said that he and Ann were going to Geraldine and that Ann was in her vehicle and Carl was in his with his girlfriend. So there were two separate cars. Now, while this was going on, Carl said he noticed a vehicle with its lights on, quote, just sitting there. And he said that this vehicle waited until we left the driveway.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Now, he says, Carl says he recognized it as Thomas in one of his dad's pickups.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Now, keep in mind, he's in a separate car than Ann, so they're not talking about this. No cell phones. So Ann said that they were driving down their lane when she observed a vehicle approaching at a slow speed. She said she didn't recognize the vehicle and kept on driving to Geraldine. Okay. She thought it was somebody lost or something. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
carl said no fuck that that was thomas and one of his dad's pickup trucks just not his so they get to the bar carl and ann and carl's girlfriend carl said they went to a bar in geraldine and while at the bar he noticed that thomas was continuously driving up and down the street in front of the bar just driving back and forth what why either go in or go home what are you driving back and forth for
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Maybe you'll see them come out and act like you ran into them, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I found the Sundown Motel, which is a nearby Stanford, which is another barely populated place a little bit down the road. Look at this place.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Carl said that when he left the bar, he saw Thomas drive by, so he followed Thomas. And they met up at an intersection where Carl got out of his car and told Thomas to fucking quit calling my sister and quit following her around, goddammit. Carl then asked Thomas, where are you going? And Thomas said that he's going home. He said, good. Fucking stay there. Leave us alone. Did he go home?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Let's find out. Well, he did go home. Oh. But he didn't stay there. He just switched vehicles. Oh, for heaven's sake. So he's like, what? Just switched cars.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Ann comes out, and she said that she exited the bar with Brian. Uh-huh. And observe Thomas sitting on a bench in front of the bar. Dude, if I'm Brian, I'm hands up and I'm going, this is too much, guys. He's your problem, lady. We've been going out for two weeks. It's not like, oh, we're just dating. This is way too much drama for this shit here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And it's not her fault, but still, if you're an outsider, you're like, I don't want any part of this shit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Well, obviously, stalking would be as crowned upon in our society.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, gas piss. That's not good. That's the worst kind of piss. June 24th, 1996, Carl tells Thomas again to stop bothering. I'm sorry, Ann tells Thomas, stop bothering my family and friends because he continuously was doing that. Carl, the brother, said that they received telephone calls where nobody would talk and they'd hang up. They'd hang up calls. Oh, boy.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
One-story in the middle of a field. Look at that. I mean, there's nothing around it for miles and miles and miles.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Carl also said that if he answered the phone, they would get about two calls per night if he was the one answering the phone. But if Ann answered the phone, they would receive 10 calls that night of hangups.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I just want her to hear her voice. Yeah. What good is that? What good is that doing you? So just seeing if she's home, I guess, not out with Brian.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No, no, we'll keep it out of that. July 2nd, 1996. Oh, a good month has gone by here. It's about 10.30 p.m. here, and Ann and her brother John, a different brother, are sitting on their porch watching a lightning storm in the distance, which is nice. A lot of distance to watch shit in out there.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Fuck yeah. So the house lights were off. They were just watching like that. And they observed lights approaching their farm on the country road. Yeah. Coming down or county road. Sorry. So Ann said she turned on some house lights and waited for the vehicle to drive in her yard.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She suspected it was Thomas, so after a period of time, she and her brother drove down their lane to look for the vehicle because it never popped up at the house. So she's like, where the fuck did it go? Now, Ann said they found an ATV sitting in the middle of the road with its neutral lights on and nobody around. It's running. A running ATV in the middle of the road with lights on.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No, no, no. I guess there's a couple of cabins out back or whatever, but it's just a row of that single row of motel one-story deal there. It's interesting. By the way, here's a picture of the interior of the room.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That didn't just fucking fall from the sky, I doubt. Someone had to drive it there. So that's interesting. Now, her brother gets on the ATV and drives it to the house.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yes, it's ours. So Anne said that they then woke up her brother Carl, who then drove around the area looking for anybody.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Somebody on foot. Carl then returned to the house and called up Randy, who is Thomas's brother. Okay. Randy Jerez, Jerez here and asked if Thomas and their ATV or is Thomas and your ATV home by any chance? Is Thomas sitting there? Yeah, there. Yeah. So the and said a short time later that Thomas answered the questions for them because this guy said, I don't fucking know.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I don't live in the same thing with him. So I don't know what to tell you here. A short while later, Thomas emerges covered in mud walking through their yard toward the house.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I don't know what he's been doing, crawling around in the mud or what here. So Thomas said he was going to the farm, quote, just hoping to catch a glimpse of her in the window. Whoa, man. Wow. He apparently was apologetic at this point. Didn't get nasty, was apologetic and again talked about killing himself. He needs to talk to somebody.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This is too much. You can't do this for a month. Yeah. Yeah. So Carl heard Thomas state that if he could not have and he didn't want to live. If I can't have you, I don't want to live anymore.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. I don't want nobody, baby. So they've moved on from night moves to fucking disco music. Perfect. We're going on through the years here. So Ann indicated that they talked for some time and Carl offered to give Thomas a ride home because he felt bad for him. He was like, this guy's just a heap of a mess. Tears going through the mud on his face.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, that's terrible. So Immediately after all this happened, Carl gets in the car to drive him home. Ann calls Brian up here and tells her what the hell happened. Jesus Christ, we saw this ATV and then it emerges covered in mud like John Goodman in fucking Raising Arizona. It was weird.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's fucking Predator. Predator. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Platoon is Charlie Sheen, Oliver Stone movie. It's a war movie. Tom Barringer and Willem Dafoe. Yeah. So that's fucking funny. So Brian told, then said that, listen, I can sympathize with you because at about 3.30 a.m., Thomas came to my house last night too, claiming his truck had broken down and I need to use the telephone.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
There's like elk printed on the bedspread. That's nice. That's very nice. But, yeah, it looks like a jacked-up hunting cabin, basically. Here are some reviews of this place because they're funny. Five out of five here from Kimberly. My husband and I were driving through Montana from Alaska to Iowa. That's a ride.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So you were just having to be coincidentally driving past my house when your truck broke down again. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He's not a great stalker. He's being found all the time and then has bad excuses for it. Not a good stalker. Fuck. So Brian told her that he let Thomas come in and use the telephone, and he said he returned to bed. So he goes, yeah, use the phone, let yourself out, and then went back to bed. Would you let this guy just unsupervised wander your house while you went and laid down in bed? Ugh.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, I'm going to just make sure this weirdo is out of my house anyway. So at that point, Ann told him she was concerned for him, meaning Brian, and said, I don't know why Thomas would be on the road that passes your house other than to drive by your house. Let's be honest here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. And Brian is just not, he doesn't seem real street smart at all. Like he doesn't seem real or whatever farm smart or any of that shit. He just seems kind of book smart and doesn't really get shit here. I guess maybe that's why he deals with animals and not people. Maybe he's better with animals. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Ann told him, listen, you bet. Do me a favor and keep a shotgun next to your bed just in case.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Brian said that I'm not going to do anything to Thomas unless he did something to my clinic again. If he tries to fuck with my clinic again, then we'll talk about it. But otherwise, I'm going to try to leave it alone and hope he just punches himself out. I bought him two sheets of drywall, and I said, listen, go to town, buddy, and just stood him up out in the yard against a tree.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, that's where all the girls are. It's the source of girls. So the weekend of July 6th and 7th here, post-4th of July 1996, Brian stayed at Ann's apartment in Great Falls. Ann said they received calls on July 6th right before 11 p.m. and 11.30 p.m. and then again at about 2.30 a.m. that morning. They got calls. They didn't answer the calls, believing they were from Thomas.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Ann said that at approximately 3 a.m. that morning, the phone rang again. And Brian finally said, you've got to answer it. We can't have peace. Tell him to fuck off at least. And, you know, maybe he won't call back. But otherwise, he's just going to call all fucking night.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Anne picked up the phone and she said she could hear someone on the line. However, no one's speaking. It's a hang up. It's one of those again. Now, later on, we find out Thomas's phone records show that calls were made from his residence to the apartment at 227 and 249 a.m. So July 8th, Anne receives a letter from Thomas. Whew. Where it's completely different tone. Now it's all conciliatory.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He's sorry for humiliating her. Very sorry about that. My actions have been unforgivable. Very sorry. But he doesn't say, so I'm going to let you go and you live your life and whatever. He says, but I really do want to get back together and get married and have kids with you. So that's why I did it. I can't help it because I want to marry you.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
July 9th, 1996, Anne spends the night at Brian's trailer here. And Anne said at 2.30 a.m. she saw headlights driving into the driveway. The vehicle then departed quickly, though, before she could, like, get a read on what vehicle it was. All she saw was the headlights.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Thomas would admit later and to anyone who would listen that he often would drive to Brian's residence in the early morning hours just to see if Anne's car was there. Yeah. Trish now, remember Trish, the friend? She said that based on the actions of Thomas and her discussions with Thomas, she was very concerned for the safety of Anne and Brian. Very concerned.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That takes a minute. My husband called and booked our room contactless check-in. That's nice. They have some technology at this. You would expect them to give you like a physical key. Right. Like one of those big skeleton key looking things.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She gave this statement, quote, I called Carl that night, and I told Carl's the brother, and told him that I was a little concerned because I thought that Tom wasn't acting rationally, that I was afraid for Anne being at Brian's house and not telling someone where she was. As far as what I thought he would do, I have no idea.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I mean, I don't know that he would do something, but I did feel very concerned, very concerned. I told Brian that same night I called and Carl told me that Ann was at Brian's house and I called over there. Brian answers the phone and I told him to watch his back. I really felt that Tom was not handling it very good. Then I spoke with Ann and I told her the same thing.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I said, no matter what time you come home, whether you call me or you call Carl, which she never did, I said, tell somebody that you're on the road if it's the middle of the night and you're by yourself. Let someone know where you are.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
just to check in all over town to make sure she hasn't been kidnapped and thrown in a gulch so that's fun July 12th now Marlene Prostman remember that's the landlord one of the landlord Dickie Prostate Man's wife she works at the vet clinic that Brian has here she gets a call from Brian at about 4pm and he said he was coming home from Bozeman that evening He was in Bozeman for some reason.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So fake Carl. Fake Carl. Fake Carl. So I love this. He's just fake Carl from now on. So Thomas and Randy, now the brothers here, the Jerezky brothers, they said they worked until approximately 7.30 p.m. on July 12, 1996. Then they returned to the farm near Geraldine where they lived. Wow. Randy did not stay at the farm that night, though.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Randy left the farm at about 830 and went to Stanford, which is where that motel was where we did the review and did not return home until about 430 a.m. Well, there's handing out popcorn like hotcakes over there. How do you go home? Popcorn and coffee are flowing. So Thomas was alone at the farm at the family farm in those early morning, late night hours here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, with the room number hanging off it. They sent our room number and check-in code via text. Our room was wonderful and cozy. The bed and pillows were comfortable and made for a good night's sleep. There was coffee and popcorn available.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Thomas said that he was there the whole night. He'll tell everybody, I was there all night, all night. He did call Brian's residence at approximately 9.45 p.m. that night, but hung up when Brian answered the phone, obviously. So he knows Brian's home.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Now, Ann said that night she was at her apartment in Great Falls with her friend Kelly Hines, and Kelly confirmed that she was with her at the apartment. Ann said at about 9.30 p.m. she received a hang-up call. So Thomas was doing his hang-up. 9.30, it's time for my hang-ups. Call Brian. Yeah. Just find out where everybody's at. Okay, good deal.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I feel like he has a little map with pins that he puts on it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Or like a police map, an old school one that lights up. You know what I mean? There she is. And she blinks as she moves. So, yeah, she made that. She said she immediately called Thomas back because she thought it was him. She's like, I'm not taking this shit. Called him back and got his answering machine. Okay. Now, Thomas here says he didn't make the phone call later on.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
However, phone records show that he made the phone call at 9.30 p.m. All right. And it was made from Randy's residence, by the way. He went over to his brother's house to do it. Boy, oh, boy. So Anne didn't believe that Brian was going to return from the conference until the next day. She thought that Brian would be in Bozeman the whole time. Again, just a simple text if we had cell phones.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That evening, Anne suggested that her friend Heinz there... call Brian's residence so she could hear Brian's voice on his answering machine and hear how nice it was. Aw. You should call my boyfriend and just hear his voice. It's so nice. You're going to love it. So that's how much she likes him. She just wants her friend to hear his voice.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, my God. So she does. She places the call at about 10, 15 p.m., and Brian answers the phone.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
A microwave, refrigerator, and coffee maker in the room. We thoroughly enjoyed our stay and would without a doubt recommend this lovely little place to everyone. I wish there were more places like this along our journey.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Ann's like, oh, my God, you're there. Great.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So Ann said, hey, have you been getting hang up phone calls? Because Ann said that. And then Brian said, yeah, I had quite a few at the clinic and I just had one at my house here. So they spoke until about 1040 p.m. when Brian said he had to go. He said, I got to go. And I guess according to Ann, she said goodbye. And he just hung up. He said, I have to go.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And she was saying goodbye as he hung up. And she said that he's never abruptly terminated a call like that ever. He always says, OK, goodbye. And it's a new love. They're going back and forth. Goodbye. No, you hang up. No, you hang up.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. And he just instead, she's like, goodbye. And he was quick. That's it. All right. So during the phone call with Brian, Ann told Brian she was interested in obtaining a temporary restraining order against Thomas for both of them. We should both get this. And so, yeah, that phone call ended abruptly. Now, introduce Bill Spevesek. He lived about a mile from Brian's trailer here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He said at about dusk that night on Friday, July 12th, he heard what he believed to be two shots fired. When asked if he had previously heard gunfire from a distance, he said yes quite a few times. And as far as my recollection, it was not a rifle. It'd be more like a short pistol shot or, you know, more of a pop instead of a rap sound or whatever. These are hunters and ranchers and farmers.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They know what guns sound like. Yeah, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I was just going to say, or a kid in Baltimore. Yeah. Abso-fucking-lutely.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It bridges everything, man. They know. So that was going on there. This guy also said he recalled seeing an unidentified male driving a dark green ATV in the direction of Brian's trailer. Randy owns a black and fluorescent green ATV. And it's the same ATV that was at the house at that time. The same one from July 2nd. So, by the way, when we say dusk, you're thinking, what time are you thinking?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Nope, this is July, way up north.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Dusk begins, no, way late. Remember the summer here? Remember the 4th of July we had to wait until 9.30? This is the middle of July. Dusk didn't begin until approximately 10.01 p.m. Whoa! and lasted between 33 and 48 minutes. It's not dark till 11 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, she's jacked about it. They gave me popcorn. Sold. That's all it takes.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So much to save. In the winter, though, it's dark at 3 o'clock, so that's a problem. So, yeah, what is it, 1.30? Shit, pitch black out there. So that's the time period after the phone calls and all that kind of thing. Richard and Marlene, the landlords and friends of his, of Brian's, said that Brian's trailer was always left open and that Brian didn't even have a key to the trailer.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Didn't even have a key. It's wide open. It's wide open all the time. That's how these people live up here. Ann also said when she went over to Brian's trailer on Friday, July 12th to mow his yard, she went over to mow his lawn. Hey, sweetheart, I'm out of town at a conference. My lawn's a little shaggy. You want to grab the mower and come on over or what? What are we doing?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Wow. When she was there, she said his trailer was open as well. And she said all the time she's been there, his trailer has never been locked. And we know it's not locked because he doesn't have a key. He's not going to lock it. So Richard Prostman here, Dickie Prostate Man, said that on Friday, July 12th, he observed the lights, like we said.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Never. I mean, cookies, if you stay at like a Doubletree, you get those cookies, but that's it. Other than that, this next one, five stars. This is crazy. If you ever get caught in a snowstorm between Great Falls and Lewiston, Montana, you know, like we all find ourselves from time to time. Right. Brian's Sundown Motel is the best. It meets all survival needs. That's good. Survival needs.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He observed lights on in Brian's trailer shortly after dark, which is after 11 p.m., indicating that he was home. Richard said that the lights had been off while Brian was in Bozeman, so he didn't leave them on the whole time. So he said that he and his wife left for Laurel, Montana between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m. the next morning, Saturday, July 13th.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And they arrived home back from Laurel at about 6 p.m. that night on July 13th. That's a Saturday. At around 7 p.m., they left for Great Falls and spent the night with their daughter. That's a lot of driving around these people are doing. So then Richard said they returned to their home between 9.30 a.m. and 9.45 p.m. on Sunday, July 14th.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And he called Brian and found the line was busy at his house. Couldn't get a hold of him. Busy. Which busy signal happened back then? Nothing you can do about it. So then Anne said that she and Brian had made tentative plans to see each other Saturday evening, July 13th. Anne called him at about 9 p.m. on July 13th and he never answered. So it was busy. I'm sorry. Right.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So she kept calling until 1 a.m. over and over and over again. And it was always busy.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, this is why he must be really on one. So this is interesting. So apparently the day of that week earlier, Wednesday, July 10th, before Brian left for Bozeman. He had talked to Richard Prostman and Brian was asking him questions if he knew anything about Thomas and shit like that. So Prostman said that Brian told him that Thomas had come to his house one night at 3 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
and asked to use the phone because his vehicle was disabled or whatever. And Prostman said that Brian told him he had never heard a vehicle enter or leave the area. So he doesn't know even where the vehicle was. So July 14th, 1996 is the Sunday, okay? Richard Prostman, he can't get a hold of Brian. So it's still busy. Has he been on the phone for two days?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So 10 a.m. on this Sunday morning, he goes over to Brian's trailer, knocks on the door, no answer, but his car's there. So he just goes in. And right there on the kitchen floor, there is Brian, dead as fucking can be, lying on his back here. He's lying on the floor on his back with his legs crossed near the ankle. And near his left hand is Brian's own .357 Magnum. Oh. Near his left hand.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
there um so they immediately obviously called 9-1-1 he's very dead um dickie prostate man said i just kind of panicked um he said i i may have checked for a pulse i don't even know but he didn't look alive that's kind of thing uh he said yeah he checked his eyes and they were glassy he said there was blood everywhere and he saw a gun near him so he was like oh i think i know what happened here
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Um, he said he didn't see any of the injuries from the shots at the time. So he said he drove the mile to his house and yelled for his wife to call nine one one. I'm telling her that Brian shot himself. He's like, Brian shot himself. Brian shot himself. Call nine one one.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So he and his wife drove back down to the trailer after she made the call. They go traipse around the crime scene a little bit more. She went inside and yelled, quote, he didn't shoot himself. He's been in a fight. Something bad happened. She went in and looked at everything. Richard was just like, holy shit, didn't expect to see this and took off.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She went in knowing what she was going to see and looking at it like a detective, like trying to figure it out. So the cops show up and this is when it really gets messy. Okay. So the investigators arrive, and they observe a handset to the telephone was under Brian's left hand.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And he's got the gun in his right hand. He wore a button-up outer shirt. Brian did. The outer shirt was unbuttoned, exposing a T-shirt underneath. T-shirt with a dress shirt over it. The outer shirt was torn. Brian suffered two gunshot wounds to his right arm. That's not a normal suicide attempt, right?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And one to his right anterior chest.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Can't take it anymore. So the forensic pathologist determined that the later wound to the chest, which was near a contact wound, was the death shot there, obviously. They also noted an abrasion located in the mid-forehead and a second abrasion in the bridge of his nose.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So they also noted his right eye was swollen and he had a contusion behind his right ear. They take the gun in. The .357 Magnum by his hand is the gun that fired the bullets that killed him.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Wow. Packaged in fantastic attitude and helpfulness. They even brought me a care package of food that has lasted me three days. That seems above and beyond.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, so this is a weird crime scene. Now, back to the crime scene. Investigators reviewed the crime scene, and based on the location of the bullet holes, the spatter, and the droplets, which won't be there very long as we'll talk about, they concluded that Brian had gone out to the back steps of his trailer where he confronted his assailant.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
One of Brian's shoes was located near the back door, and blood was also located on the sidewalk near the back door. They further concluded that a struggle ensued and that whoever did this shot Brian twice in the right arm. As Brian attempted to retreat to the trailer, they believe that the assailant grabbed his outer shirt, ripping the shirt, and then shot him in the chest.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Brian then retreated to the kitchen and attempted to use the telephone and died in the kitchen while he was trying to probably call for help.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
OK, this is a crime scene that there's a lot of different parts to it. Yeah. And it's very important to keep all this shit pristine. There's going to be trace evidence here, all this type of shit. So what they do is here's Douglas Williams, who's with the sheriff's department at the time. He's the guy who's supposed to be in charge of this shit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
But he's away at a conference, a training conference at the time. So there's other cops that are in charge that aren't normally in charge of this type of shit. And by the way, they haven't had a death like a murder, a suspicious death like this in 19 years in this town, in this area.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Have never seen a murder before or anything that's close to it. Now, this guy, Douglas Williams, who's supposed to be in charge here, he says that they have a, quote, unwritten policy there with crimes. First of all, all crime scene policies need to be written.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Or too much of a policy, one of the two, because we'll find out this is too much.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I just picture some old lady coming out with like, here you go. Giving him like a picnic basket or something.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Not a policy. Well, they have an unwritten policy regarding the cleanup of bloody scenes, okay? And that is that... All right. Well, basically what happens is I'll tell you in a second here, the deputies and the local coroner spent a few hours just fucking trampling this crime scene in this kitchen. They take about a dozen photos, which isn't enough. Twelve. Twelve.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You could do that just with the blood spots outside. Never mind everything else, holes in the walls. And in the process, what they do is after they take the photos, they just start mopping the fucking scene up. They don't document shit. They don't swab for DNA. They don't dust for prints because the family started showing up and they didn't want the family.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Three days. That is fucking insane, man. That's incredible. Absolutely wild. Okay. Jessica here. Three stars. Bit pricey for off season. We stopped here during a snowstorm and stayed for the night. Seems to be a common theme here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's the unwritten rule is they didn't want to see it. They don't let families see a bloody crime scene. So they literally got a bottle of 409 and started destroying every piece of physical evidence in the house.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's great. You spray it on a scorpion and it dies. That's awesome.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, yeah. You know when the 409's been out. Holy shit. So not only that, the sheriff's deputy here, they cleaned up the blood under his body and everything, removed his body. They should have kept it exactly the way it was for two fucking days probably to process all this shit, or at least for a few hours. There's several scenes at this house. No shit. Here's the other thing.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The bloody there was bloody towels nearby and the phone that was between Brian's head in the wall. They didn't want the family to see them. So they picked them up, put them in a garbage bag and threw them out in the garbage. Just threw them out. They just took evidence and threw it in a dumpster.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I'll get rid of that stuff. You can't see it. It's too bad.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The coroner's not even a fucking doctor, by the way. The coroner's not a crime scene investigator. No. A medical examiner's a doctor. A coroner can be literally anybody. It can be the pizza guy who got the job as coroner.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He just takes the body there, right?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They go, he's dead. That's what they do. So, oh, my God. So anyway, he said, yeah, the guy told me to. And the later photos of the of the scene, though, suggests that it wasn't a little area. He cleaned up a fucking huge area of the whole room. My Christ, this is crazy. So this is crucial evidence. Fucking gone. Gone. So they said, well, when would you clean up the crime scene?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
What's the unwritten policy? What the fuck? This makes no sense. And the cops said there were certain times we would clean it up. Okay. Great. Certain times. That's what I'm saying. What are they? When it's most fucking detrimental to the investigation?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Well, we do it mornings usually if we get there. Then, you know, got an egg sandwich in your stomach. It's nice. So he went on to say, though, that in 98 or 2000, he doesn't remember what year, though, his office stopped that practice. And they've been, you know, processing crime scenes correctly, then using a crime scene cleaning service afterwards, like a normal police department would.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Rather than just going, hey, Bobby, go ahead and get that 409 from the bathroom under the sink. It's a mess in here. We don't want people to see this. There's a scrub daddy under the sink. You can go on, Greg. Between the scrub daddy and the Swiffer, I feel like we can get this place in tip-top shape, right?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So they also find out that nothing was taken from the trailer, including valuables, jewelry and two rifles as well as the 357. So interesting. Now they're saying they think he killed himself. The police are saying looks like a suicide. Boy, did he hate himself.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The room was standard and we were only allowed to use one bed in the room for $5 more. You were only allowed. I don't understand that. That's great. Go in your room, but only leave that other bed alone.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Wow. These cops are fucking dumb.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This is, besides the mayor coming in and trampling in that one episode, this might be the worst crime scene I've ever heard in my entire life. Literally. Even the 30s.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Fuck, man. Really. I mean, right in the arm. I want to feel it first. punching himself hitting himself like fucking ed norton and fight club so they uh the undersheriff told uh brian's grandparents and two other family members that brian's death was a suicide even though he hadn't even been to the crime scene yet okay so the grandmother said you're full of it My grandson would never kill himself.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I know him. He's not suicidal. He's not even sad. He's super happy. He's knee-deep in poo, man. What are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He gets to play with animals all day and then be knee-deep in poo. That's a great life he's living. I love to do that. Pet dogs all day. Jesus Christ. Now, John Sebrant said that he'd been a friend of Brian's for about 10 years, starting in Kansas.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He told the cops that Brian hated the gun, didn't like it at all, just hated it too loud, too much. And he'd been trying to sell it or trade it for a long time. And it's just been sitting there. So he said that Brian generally kept the gun in his bedroom, but it was possible the gun could have been left in plain sight in his house or vehicle as well. Could be anywhere.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They live on a farm in a trailer. Who knows? So another one here, a guy named Rick Porter. So it was Rick Porter's a customer of Brian's. He said they became friends after that. He said that he had seen the hand tooled leather gun case containing Brian's initials. He said that's what held the 357. Yeah. So he had that, and Brian had offered to sell it to him. He said, you want to buy it?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And he said, no, I'm good right there. He said he last saw the gun, though, on the seat of Brian's car in December of 95. So the gun does move around. It's not just on a shelf up in the closet. So according to people that knew Brian well, they were not aware of anyone who was angry with Brian or would have any reason to kill him other than Thomas.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I mean, he's been saying this guy's been stalking him, but otherwise he's happy. So they look into the whereabouts of numerous friends and associates of Brian here. Investigators determined that all of these people that are – everybody, his sister, his family, Richard and Marlene Prostman –
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That is wild. So they got a response from the owner. Hello there. Thank you for the review. There is new ownership here now, and we can honestly say a charge for bed use is an odd thing. Yeah, it is. We charge for the room, not what is being used inside of it, is what they say. That's good.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Larry and Lori Hagenbach, who we'll talk about at the end of this in a while here, Ann Wishman, John Sebrant, Jody Thorson, and Penny Porter all had alibis for the time period that Brian was killed. And all their alibis were corroborated. They didn't do it. They were not able to locate a single witness who could confirm Thomas' whereabouts because, remember, they got home from work.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
His brother went out until 4 in the morning, and he said he didn't go anywhere. Thomas did, but no one was there to see that. So that's that. So there's no they have no alibi witnesses for him. So they have to bring him in and talk to him. So they bring him in for a formal interview on July 15th. And he said, yeah, I was devastated by the breakup. Yeah, absolutely.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He said, I was, quote, I was really hurt because it was almost like we were married, you know, going went out four and a half years and living with each other for the last six months. And, you know. Felt like we were married. He told investigators that he knew that she wasn't being straight up with him and quote, because she had told me Brian wasn't the reason that she dumped me.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So he said that he knew over time that Brian was the big reason she dumped me. But during his interview, he also told investigators he was home alone on the evening of July 12th. And so he was asked why he didn't pick up a call from Ann at approximately 930. And he said, I may have been at Randy's residence, which is exactly where he was making those phone calls. So we know that for a fact.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
In talking to him, he makes these statements. He said he never went to the rain house, the rain residence, on July 2nd to seek assistance with his vehicle, even though he definitely did. Yeah, he made phone calls from his house and everything. The last time he was present at Brian's trailer was on the morning of June 16th, 1996, a month ago.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
When he went to the back door and asked to see Wishman, that was the early morning deal. 6 a.m. he shows up. He denied he'd ever been inside the trailer. He said he was unaware of Ann's whereabouts that night that this all happened. And that approximately 9 p.m. the night of the murder, he injured his back while working on his truck at the family farm because he had injuries.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And they were like, well, how'd you hurt yourself? Fighting a veterinarian? And he was like, no, no, of course not.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
God, no. Yeah. He said that he called Brian at approximately 945 July 12th, 1996, but hung up when he answered the telephone and he just remained at his family farm until 8 a.m. with his back hurting. He said that's when he and Randy returned to the fields to work. Later that day, he said his back hurt so bad that he went to Great Falls and received treatment at a hospital. So fucked up.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another insane, wild, crazy, murderous edition of Small Town Murder. As you're used to, we have a crazy story for you today, a definite mystery. I mean, this is a, oh, it's a weird one here. We will get to that. For sure. But definitely head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So they were talking to everybody and the hospital and everything. They were able to determine that he did suffer an injury to his back that night. And he stated in an interview he fell from his truck that evening.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And he received medical assistance for it. Medical records say that he was in the emergency room on July 13, 1996. According to the hospital records, the diagnosis was a myofascial strain of L.S. spine. So that's a condition. It's chronic pain in the muscle. He strained his back. That's all. Threw his back out.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, that's amazing. Oh, that's amazing. John gives one star. No accountability whatsoever from the manager. Plays super nice, but if something isn't working, it's your fault. No question.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Threw his back out. Doctor said I need a back anatomy. Yeah. So he's got a – that happens when you're fighting with people, apparently. It does. He has the funeral. They have a funeral for Brian, obviously, and they had – people were singing. Really? I'm going to say this right now. Yeah. Don't let anyone sing at my funeral, please.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It just makes everyone uncomfortable. And it's not cool. Just don't do it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yes. They had an organist and two different people. They sang Precious Lord, Take My Hand, In the Garden, and Amazing Grace, obviously. You've got to have the standard. Yeah. Can't have Christmas without jingle bells. What are we doing here?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So there's memorial set up to Brian is the Brian A. Rain Memorial Fund in care of Q. Banks of Geraldine will be distributed to the KSU Veterinarian Fund and the Livestock Judging Department. What? I don't know. I only put this in here to go. What the fuck is that? Is that a class you take to livestock judge?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You'd have to know all the standards. Yeah. To judge shit, you'd have to know all the standards. You'd have to know this animal should have this, and they should have a bit of color here, and this should be like that.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Piece of shit dog. Dog looks great. Wagging its tail, looking happy and shit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So July 18th, 1996, two days later, three days later, because Thomas went home, they bring him back in for a second interview. And this is, they're going to poke around a little more here. And he indicated the following. He said, Thomas said he'd never been in or around the area of the shelter belt located near the rain trailer. Shelter belt is the wind thing we were talking about earlier.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Right, right, right. He had only been at the rain residence once when he went to the back door, never been inside. He said that again after he made those declarations. They said, well, we have evidence that puts you right in the shelter belt. So then he said, OK, I lied. Sorry. My bad. When confronted with facts, he just gives it up.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I said, yeah, I lied. He goes, yeah, I lied when I previously said that I didn't do that. And he said, quote, OK, well, this is something that I didn't tell you guys the first time that I talked to you, which terrible right away. But it was something that you and Mike asked me about is that this is what the story was, is that my truck supposedly broke down, supposedly.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Your fault. And the owner replies, normally I don't reply to negative reviews, but when all the reviews you have given are negative and your name has never stayed at our motel, my guess this is a fake review or you have the wrong property. It would help everyone if you explained why it's a one-star, especially since you haven't stayed with us before and we don't warrant one-star reviews.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And I went and asked to use Brian's phone. Do you recall that? He said, this is all hypothetical. You asked that. He said, and I walked to Brian's through the shelter belt and I told him, I asked him if I could use the phone. So I, I was in the trailer. That's something I didn't tell you guys before. And I don't know why I didn't, but you know, So they're like, OK.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He said, I only went there to see if she was there, though. That's all I wanted. He said, yes, I my truck wasn't broken down. I did come through the shelter belt and I didn't actually make a telephone call. I just faked it. Yeah. Did one of those. So he said he'd been there.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They said that would there be any reason for any evidence to be tracked down to him on a weapon or any components of a weapon? Okay. Anything, your fingerprints, blood, anything, DNA going to be on any of these weapons.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And he said, I don't believe so. Um, of course I was right at that table where the phone was at. So if there's something to do with that, but I don't recall seeing a weapon, you know, when I was there, um, you know, but I mean, as far as if you're talking like maybe bullets or something like that, that, uh, could have been lying on the table. I might've had my hand on there.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I might've just touched bullets that were hanging around.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
wow he said um but no i i don't you know when i was there i never did recall seeing one this is a terrible job he's doing right now so holy shit so that is the 18th july january july 18th like we said and he said he denied calling her on the evening of july 12th but he did admit that he called brian at 9 45 but i didn't make the call right before that damn that wasn't me So fucking weird.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So phone records for Randy shows that on 945, someone called Ann's Great Falls residence from the telephone at Randy's house. He admitted that he was the only person at the farm from 830 to 930 a.m. He further admitted that he would call Brian, quote, just to annoy him on occasion by tapping on the phone with his fingers when he answered the phone.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So they're waiting for the lab to come back with shit. For what? I don't know. It's all destroyed and ruined and corrupted and everything else.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Coming back with shit. But rumor and speculation in the town. Imagine this small of a place.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Down at the feed store, everyone is hanging around talking about nothing else. Fucking period. This is the first local murder in 19 years. And wow. The county attorney said everybody is kind of on edge. They'd like this case to be solved. They don't know whether the person's still out there running around. Yeah, they said they're conducting interviews, tracking down leads.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
But thank you for trying to hurt small businesses.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They have 89 items submitted to the crime lab. And they said that might be the key evidence. Maybe that'll come back with something. They said, we do have suspects, but we need the physical evidence before we can walk into court. You destroyed the crime scene. What the fuck are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, they said they're proceeding cautiously because of the intense local scrutiny. They don't want to fuck it up, basically. They said that a lot of the early interviews where they were just getting alibis for people who knew him became fuel for gossip. People were saying, oh, that guy had to talk to the cops. He must have did it. Or that lady talked to the cops. She must have did it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And I'm not going to make you three. I'll make you one day worth of food tops.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, man, who had the click? So he said, we noticed we'd be working on something and talking to someone. And next morning, the gossip mill had them arrested and convicted. Did you see they went to the police? They arrested him for the murder. Meanwhile, the guy's making fucking eggs in his kitchen. It's fine. So July 24th, 1996. Time has gone by now.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
A member of the search team found a gun case to Brian's .357 Magnum in the tall grass about 85 feet from the trailer.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They examined a shelter belt northwest of Rain's trailer and discovered that there was an area in the shelter belt where it appeared someone had stood and trampled the grass in that area. Yes. According to investigators, from that location in the shelter belt, you can see the back door to Rain's trailer and not be seen. It's the perfect hiding stalking spot, basically.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They believe that the person who handled the gun case hid in the shelter belt, walked to the rear door of the trailer, confronted him, fought him, shot him, killed him, walked away. There you go. Neighbors want it solved yesterday.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And finally, Marvin, one star sucked. That's it. Just sucked. There's another review where this lady talks about how she got there late in the middle of the night, and they had given her room away, and she was texting the manager from outside the door, and the manager told her, nothing more I can do. Please leave the property. It's like, there's nothing around here. Nowhere to go. Crazy.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. Some local residents have even accused neighbors of involvement in the murder. Like, they're turning on each other. That's how crazy it is. I bet you did it. No, I bet you did it. That's what the mayor said. The mayor said that last night. Yeah. The mayor said people are turning on each other. We got to solve this yesterday.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He said the mayor went on to say people really close to Brian want this case solved. At the same time, it's disrupting a certain number of families. But members of Brian's family say they've been in close contact with the sheriff's office and are satisfied with the progress of the investigation.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They said the sister, Charlene, who helped him out with the vet, said they'd been working on this case day and night. They're going to do what they have to do to get the crime solved. That's nice here. They said that the vet service will remain closed until they can find another vet to fill it in. Yeah. There we go. August 1996. Weeks have gone by. Oh, my. They finally search Thomas' house.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Now. Yeah. They search his house. You know, plenty of time. We got tons of this. He ain't getting any debtor, so it's fine. So they do this. They search it, and they find a letter to Anne. The letter was written to Anne prior to July 12, 1996, and the death. Yeah. This is what he writes to Anne, but I don't think he gave it to her.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Quote, I really hope that Brian doesn't hurt you too bad, but maybe that's a lesson you'll just have to go through. Then he said, the first I knew you slept with him was June 15th, but Jody told me that Glenda had told her that you were seen leaving together June 8th, which was only four days after you dumped me and had slept with him. So what? What does any of this matter at this point?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I am real hurt that you dumped me, but I'm even more hurt that you started seeing someone else right away and jumped right into bed with them. Okay, so that is August of 1996. Rest of 96 goes by. Nothing. Oh, fuck. All of 97 goes by. Oh, no. No progress. They've fucked this crime scene up so bad they have to figure this out. April 4th, 1998. They want to talk to him again.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Okay. During this time, he again denied making the call to Ann on July 12th and stated he did not know where Ann was that night. He did admit to calling Ann's telephone in the early morning hours of July 7th and July 11th. He stated that on those occasions, he set his alarm clock to wake him after the bars closed so he could check in on them. He set an alarm for bar closing time.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Stalking is a job for this guy. He sets his alarm. He's like, oh, shit, I'm almost late.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I got to punch in. This is crazy. Yeah, that's a crazy amount of FOMO.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Wow. He also conceded that he had driven by Brian's trailer on many occasions other than those he acknowledged in previous interviews. He said that he'd used different vehicles, including the ATV, in order to avoid suspicion by Brian and his neighbors and Ann. Many of those drive by incidents occurred on weekends.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He also admitted on one occasion he drove into Raines driveway one early morning, then left. That means that seems to be the one that they were talking about where a car pulled up and then it never came. During the April 4th, 1996 interview, he was again asked if he may have touched the weapon or a gun case.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They said, and you said you may have touched some cartridges or something that was on the table. And he said, yeah, that's where his phone was located, was on the table. And the only light he had on in the house was his bedroom light, so it was dark. So I said, there's a possibility that. Just leaning his hand on the table, he might have grabbed some ammo. You know how that goes.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
People in this town... Nothing I can do.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So they said, is there any way that you could have sat your hand down on a gun case or touched it or rubbed up against it? And he said, well, yeah. Of course, he said, there's a possibility. Like I said, it was dark and I could have leaned up against the table while I was on the phone. So that's a possibility. And they said, you're under arrest. I think you're under arrest, sir.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Bye, and then you're just out into the... Montana has plenty of vacancy. That field is empty. Knock yourself out.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I may have touched all the things that were at the crime scene with my fingerprints on them. It's not a good excuse.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This is weird. You're real touchy-feely. It's just how I am. Sensory, I have a bad problem. I need to touch.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So, yeah, he's he's going to jail charged with murder and burglary. And they this is the one of the undersheriffs here said we were hit with a lot of gossip and rumors and knew early on we couldn't say anything. We knew it was going to be a complex case. We had a lot of folks to look at. Did you?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
If someone's stalking you, I feel like that's the one to clear first, a stalker.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
We could be he could be in Philly for all we know. So they said that he was viewed as suspiciously early on. But he said, I wouldn't say he's always been a prime suspect. No. How fucking stupid are you people? Are you kidding me? I just described him stalking. They said the defendant's relationship with Wishman was hardly ideal.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. People in this town, population 202.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He was possessive of her and disapproved of her associations with other men. On one occasion, the defendant threatened to kill other men that she might date. Okay, now family members of Brian's praised the investigators. I don't know how. I'd have been like, you dumb fucks are lucky you arrested somebody. You fucked up the crime scene. It's been a year, two years almost. You people are useless.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Fuck you. I don't know why they're so grateful. You fucked everything up and you finally did the right thing. Sorry, not really fucking doing that. She said, I know they've been working on this a long, long time. That's the sister.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's Brian's mother. Yeah. They said they chased a lot of leads and rumors. I give them credit for being persistent and not giving up. They wouldn't have had to if they wouldn't have cleaned the goddamn crime scene up. So, wow. So his parents live in Scott City, Kansas. Their son moved to Geraldine then, and he said the sister was the partner in the business. They're talking about that.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And that's just in this area. I mean, there's nobody here. That's in like ranches that are spread out and farms and things like that. There's no real town center or anything.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Investigators kept close contact with the family as the months rolled by. Brian's mom said they've been very good. They told us as much as they could, which was nothing. They acted like it was a big mystery rather than listen. We know who did it, but we can't really arrest him now because we fuck some stuff up. They didn't tell her that. She also said that she doesn't know why he was murdered.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She said, I'm not sure we'll ever understand the why. It was just so senseless. Yeah, the sheriff said he spent considerable amount of time with Thomas's family members after the arrests, many of whom are longtime residents. And the sheriff said the Jerez family are just darn good folks.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I just hope people have some compassion for his family, too. And Brian's mother said there's still a wait here. They have to wait a lot. They said, we're thankful that there's been an arrest, but happy? There's two families that have been destroyed by this, the suspects and ours. Can't be happy.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, get in there and fucking do something here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
In a town of 200 people, you know everybody, so everything is like a personal thing. Well, I don't want to offend Paul if I do this. It doesn't fucking matter. That's why it's hard to do shit in a small town. And everybody knows everybody. Then September 25th, 1998. This is what, five months after the arrest? Charges are dropped.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's kind of cool if that's what you're looking for, you know, the middle of nowhere like that. There is 52% male, 48% female because it's a lot of like ranching type work.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Pardon? Okay. Judge John Warner ruled that certain evidence obtained through the use of a bloodhound could not be used. That's the gun case with his fingerprints on it. According to the press at the time, the prosecution was unable to properly document the dog's work on the case to the judge's satisfaction. So the following month, the prosecutors have to drop the charge.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
An assistant with the Montana Attorney General's Office here, Prosecution Service Bureau, said, I didn't feel we had a strong enough case. If I don't believe we can win a case, I'm ethically required to have it dismissed. It's Montana, and you're not going to have an expensive trial.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They don't spend a lot on that kind of shit in the rural area, so that's going to be the county's whole court budget for the year, so you better make sure that that motherfucker's guilty.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So that was 1998. Years go by. Oh, boy. 16 years to be exact. Oh, my God. 16 fucking years. Now, in the meantime, Thomas has gotten married. Yeah. Had two sons with his wife and moved to South Dakota.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Whole new life. Yeah. Left the state. Whole new life. But in 2014, they rearrest him. Because he wasn't acquitted, he just had the charges dropped. He was arrested at his home in South Dakota. His wife probably didn't even know this shit was going on.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They showed up at his house in South Dakota on April 30th, and that was that. This is one of the communications people for the Attorney General's office said, several years ago at the request of law enforcement, our Prosecution Services Bureau here at the Montana Department of Justice took another look at the case.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Median age here is 60. Good Christ. Getting old, people. Holy shit. How much ranching are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
With the assistance of our Division of Criminal Investigation, our prosecutors reworked the case, which included additional investigation and felt that sufficient evidence they had to refile charges. So they do. 2015, it's trial time, baby. Here we go. This is 19 years after the crime.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No. It's all been either dismissed as not admissible or it's been cleaned up with 409. Uh-huh. The openings here, the prosecution for the Montana Attorney General's office made the opening statement and said that he was heartbroken following a breakup. We've all been there. He said, yeah. He said that his girlfriend, Ann, started dating Brian while he was working there.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And she, you know, whatever. They had been living together before the breakup. And then she's moving in with this guy, painting the picture of the relationship that we just did for two hours. So...
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You know, the prosecution characterized him as a jealous man who displayed the behavior of a stalker quitting his job in Great Falls, moving back to his family's Geraldine farm and driving by Ann and Brian's residences and calling them both on multiple occasions.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They told the jury that Thomas entered Ann's home in the middle of the night when she wasn't home and read her diary and read that Brian was the man of her dreams. Yeah. You know what that did? That set him off.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Man, those kids got to want to take over. It's about 48% of the people here are married. 26.5% are single with children, which is for a rural place like that, that's normally not like that. Race in this town, 99.1% white, 0.9% Hispanic. That's it. Nothing else. Yeah, nothing else. 86.3% religious.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You bet it. You bet it will. So the prosecutor also said Thomas told Carl, Ann's brother, that he'd entered the residence that they all shared without them knowing and further stated that if he couldn't be with Ann, he might as well kill himself. They put that all out there. They also asserted that he called Brian's residence and hung up and did the same to her that night, which we know.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And they said, and now he knows they're not together. She's at her place. He's at his place. Perfect. So they said that Brian was speaking on the phone with and just before his death and that he abruptly abruptly ended the conversation. which would make sense because he said, I got to go.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He said, there's a person outside and he hung up and they said that was the last anyone ever heard from Brian rain. The state gives no theory to how exactly he was shot three times in the upper arm, arm and chest, not in the opening, but the, The cops thought they figured it out because he had blood outside. Arm, arm. Now, I don't know. I guess he stole the gun.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Someone must have stole the .357 from him. That's all he could do. So they give no theory. They say that this was not a suicide. It was not an accident. It was a murder where no evidence was left behind. That's very funny. From the defense, I'm going, no evidence because of the incompetent police force. You can't trust a word from these people.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It's terrific. It will clean up your crime scene. So the defense now, Jennifer Striano of the Montana Office of Public Defenders, made the opening statement, first explaining that the state will prove that her client was heartbroken. That's true. It's true. And also that he did some really stupid things.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He did some dumb things, some immature things, something that just a heartbroken person might do in desperation. But they're not going to prove that he killed Brian, tell you that much. They said there's no evidence.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They said the officers expect to testify will try to explain away and excuse their treatment of the crime scene and even blame the decision to clean the blood on the coroner, who was a mortician and not a trained law enforcement officer or even a doctor, for Christ's sake. Okay. So they said, well, he wanted it cleaned up. Well, who cares? You're not the investigator.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
We'll clean it up when we're done investigating. A homicide detective. I realize there's no homicide detective here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah, three guys that put their feet up on their desk and put their hat in front of their face when they want to take a nap in their office.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Or in the truck. That's what they do. They're not detectives, but a homicide detective or really every state law says the investigator in charge owns the scene. It is their scene. If they don't want the coroner there, they'll tell them to go fuck off. Get the fuck out of my scene. We'll call you when we need you. The coroner doesn't get called till the detectives are done processing the scene.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's it, man. So they said that towels from Brian's home used to clean up the blood were placed in garbage bags along with the phone and discarded. Where were they discarded? At the Chateau County undersheriff's home. He took them home with him and threw them in his own garbage. Holy fuck, this is just Little League shit here, man.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So the defense noted that trace evidence that was salvaged, including DNA, fibers, and shoe impressions, didn't even match the client. The shit we have, it's all cop stuff. It's all their shoe prints and shit like that. There's a big thing about shoe prints.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They also implored the jury to keep an open mind about the time of death, saying her client did not have an alibi for Friday night, but he did have one for Saturday. So maybe Brian was killed on Saturday. The defense mentioned several other people who had alibis for Friday, but not Saturday, who should be considered suspects. You're going to take their word for time of death.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It could have happened later. We don't know. And they also the defense said you will have the urge to want to solve this. That's natural. But this case cannot be resolved. Prosecution gives their rebuttal, saying the decision to clean the blood at the scene was an unwritten policy of the sheriff's office at the time. It's just fuck it all up, ruin all evidence and throw it in the garbage. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I guess while the snows are falling, you got to pray to something. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Unwritten. Unwritten. Especially given that some initially classified his death as a suicide and family members were expected to arrive at any minute. That's why they cleaned it up. And they said that the town of Geraldine hadn't seen a homicide. This person says 17 years. I've read 19. Either one.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The state pointed out inconsistencies in Thomas's statement to law enforcement officials and that he continued to pursue. And after Brian's death, he was still trying to get with her. They mentioned several letters that he sent to Ann and that he used a vacuum cleaner salesman to get her new phone number. Yes, he sent a vacuum cleaner salesman to her house to try to get her phone number.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Fucking unbelievable. That is wild. They sent the Dyson guy in. So the state said that Thomas told his new girlfriend that he was still in love with Ann. Mm-hmm. And that a vet took her from him and that he wished that vet was dead. And she was like, was he in Vietnam?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
This is wild. 59.6% are Catholic.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He's like, no, you fucking dummy animals. Not a vet that way, you stupid ass.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, Jesus. A soldier in a Corvette? Okay.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I'm wet just thinking about it. A vet and a vet. That ain't bad. So he said he wished the vet was dead, but he already was. This was after he was dead and Thomas knew he was dead. He was telling the girlfriend that.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They bring in the old undersheriff here to testify that he had been in training that day and, you know, regarding at the Montana Law Enforcement Academy regarding coroner duties and homicide investigations. If only I took that earlier, that would have been great. They asked whether they were told cleaning the scene was appropriate at trainings that he attended in 1988, 1991, and 1993.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's so strange. I mean, there's only 202 people, so that could be like five families that are Catholics. But that's a lot. Seems like a lot. Unemployment rate is low here, which there's no people. So, yeah, who's looking for a goddamn job? And the median household income also very low here. The rest of the country right now, the average is about $69,000. Here it is $32,083.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Did they tell you that was the appropriate thing to do? And he said no. Well, why the fuck did you do it, stupid, would be the fucking natural follow-up question here. They went on to ask whether cleaning a crime scene and throwing away evidence went against all the training he's received, like ever. And he said no. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Dude, how do you even deal with this if you're the jury? The defense established through this that the undersheriff should have had control of the scene at all times given his absence for training. Also, that Williams also provided more information about the then coroner's training and how in 1996 the coroner was not affiliated with the sheriff's office.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Some dude just came in and said, clean all this up, and they went, okay, and cleaned it up. Yeah. During this trial, the witnesses, meaning the crime scene people, said that an 11 and one quarter inch hair was found with the root still attached on Brian's left hand. That belongs to Ann Wishman. Oh, which she means she spends tons of time there.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So if you've if you've ever been around a woman in the house, you'll get there long. Where the fuck did that come from?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
boxers it's everywhere asshole how did that happen all they said although a vacuum search of the kitchen area where his body was found didn't discover any other hairs of hers just one near his hand or on his hand Also, the Montana Forensic Science Division said that they recently did a DNA analysis of Brian's underwear. Everybody want that done to you? Have a DNA analysis of your underwear?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No, thank you. From the crime scene and found the DNA of an unidentified person who was not Ann Wishman.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yes, the defense suggested that this could mean Rain was having a relationship with someone and he and Ann may have had a conflict over this that day. That's how this happened. Ann killed him. It's all Ann.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Based on one hair that there's tons of her hair in the house, I'm sure. Then there's Larry Hagenbush or Buck or Buck. Larry Hagenbuck. They were friends in Kansas, he and Brian. And he had moved to Montana to work on his wife's partner's ranch. And when he was later visiting with Brian, he suggested that he move to Montana, too, because there was an opening for a veterinarian in Fort Benton.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And Brian ended up moving to Fort Benton and then to Geraldine. He took as his vice. So they put Larry on the witness stand and asked him about his activities in 1996 prior to Brian's death, and he generally gave short answers to the questions, they said.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The defense also called two women who worked in a counseling office in Great Falls where Larry Hagenbach and his estranged wife went for a counseling session on Monday, July 15th, the day after Brian's body was found. The office manager there, Kathleen Foster, testified that Larry Hagenbach arrived at the office before his wife and acted like he was having a, quote, rough day.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She said, quote, he said the prior day he had come upon his friend who had been murdered. He wasn't at the crime scene. She then asked him questions and she said that Larry said that rain had been shot Saturday night with his own gun. This is while everyone said it was suicide.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So this is very interesting. So Ann testifies. She's got to testify. Now her name is Ann Stone now, though. Yeah, she got rid of the wishman. She said she didn't leave Thomas for Brian, but he thought she did and called her a tramp.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She answered questions about the frequent phone calls at a time when he pressured her into going for a drive and attempted to keep her in his truck when she wanted to leave and all that kind of shit, as well as all the stalking. She testifies to everything. She said that Thomas admitted to reading her journal and told her mother and sister that he was concerned about what he read.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That is. I mean, it has to be. It's got to be a lot of Social Security because the average age is 60, so that makes sense. Cost of living here, 100 being regular and average in the rest of the country, is 78.6, which is not bad. The housing is the low thing. Median home cost here, $227,100. What?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
thoughts and i know what's going on in her personal life that and between her ears and i'm very concerned about i'm concerned she talked about her first or final phone call with brian and that she was devastated by his death now cross-examination though the defense says did you know your hair was found on his palm and she said no and they said did you kill him and she said no and
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
OK, now there's also a shoe print. There's a shoe print that I'll read right from this. The testimony almost given to the jury Wednesday, almost given regarding a shoe print resurfaced in Chateau County as the defense in the in this case, deliberate homicide or deliberate homicide trial moved for the charge to be dismissed due to the misconduct on the state's part.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The former Division of Criminal Investigation agent, Joseph Uribe, mentioned a pattern he noticed in shoe prints left near Brian's trailer more than a week after he was found shot. This guy said that he drew the pattern in his notes and then matched the pattern on a later search. He drew the pattern in his, that's not how you do that. He drew it. I'm a real good drawer though.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And then said it matches his shoes.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The defense objected, and the issue was discussed outside the presence of the jury, and the judge, Greg Pinsky, read instructions to the jury, which stated that based on evidence and expert testing, not footwear impressions, based on the evidence, based on evidence and expert testing, not footwear impressions were found at the scene or near the trailer matching any soles belonging to Thomas.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He said, all this drawn shit, that doesn't count.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Outside of the jury as well, the defense counsel requested to address the issue further. He said despite the instruction, the jury now has an impression that cannot be reversed and will adversely impact their trial strategy. The defense attorney says he just lied, Your Honor. to try and make a physical connection in this case between the footprint and my client.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So the prosecutor said that they just attributed this to this guy providing a longer answer than she anticipated regarding the shoe print, saying something she didn't expect him to say. Like, I didn't tell him to say that. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The defense said that the state's intention with the line of questioning about the shoe print, she said the defense had no information about the ruined plaster casts of the prints mentioned on the stand or drawing he made in his notes of the patterns. Like we didn't even get anything on that. Apparently they made plaster casts and fucked them all up, so then he just drew them.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
From the picture, he just drew them.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It ain't easy. Ever make one of them volcanoes in the fifth grade? Shit's hard.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I thought the cup was one cup, but it turns out it's a two-cup one, so I messed it all up. It got four when it should have been two.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Oh, that's so fucking funny. So, yeah, they said that the defense proposed that the state intended to show the shoes to the jury along with this testimony. And, yeah, they concluded that after a 19-year span between the crime and the trial, there's no reason the defense shouldn't be privy to all of the case information at this point.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Not too bad, but what you get for that is not too great, as we'll talk about in our coming up, in case we've convinced you, in our Geraldine, Montana real estate report. Average two-bedroom rental here is $860. I don't know how many rentals there is in a town like this. It's very affordable. Yeah, somebody's bunkhouse or something. There's no apartment complexes or anything.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And the judge said, quote, if the shoe, no pun intended, were on the other foot, you'd be outraged. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
son of a bitch no pun it really you use that one intended as fuck stop it super intended a pun fucking on your nose man just right pow the tip of it so police uh interview uh they played the police interview and uh in this they got to choice lines like thomas saying quote i guess it was stupid for me to be doing this
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Talking about several times when he was like, I drove by, I stalked, I did that kind of shit here, which is really fucking funny here. He told the cops during this that they're played about driving to Brian's trailer to pick up Ann and bring her home after the street dance in June after reading her diary. Thomas said right then I knew she wasn't being straight with me.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So I knew Brian was the reason she dumped me. And then that's what they're hearing. And then he told the investigators he confronted Brian about and when he drove over there in the middle of the night after reading the diary, which makes him sound just crazy as can be.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. He explained all of the all of the phone calls he made to multiple people about like her family and friends and all of that. And he said he told Anne's mother that Anne drank alcohol and was promiscuous before they started dating when she was 17. She was a teenage strumpet also. Did you know that? Because that's what he's trying to say now.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He went on to say that Ann confronted him about that one July 2nd when he rode a four-wheeler to the farm and was caught hiding there. He said that Ann told him she didn't trust him anymore and that he knew they'd never get back together. And he said that he never saw her after that. That was it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Get your tickets for live shows. I'm telling you, if you're listening to this early, you might be able to still get to Pittsburgh on February 7th. If not, Chicago, St. Louis. St. Louis is almost sold out. Chicago's getting there. That's in May. So get your tickets today for those. And all the ones at the end of the year are selling very fast. I think Portland sold out. San Diego done.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He also told the cops that about nine forty five p.m. the night the state says that Brian was killed. He said he called to apologize for his behavior. That's why he called not to check on anybody. He said, but he chickened out and didn't say anything when Brian answered the phone. Now, the cops told him in the interview they don't buy that as a reason there.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They express sympathy for his feelings about the breakup, but then they say that they knew he wasn't telling them the whole story. And, yeah, so also they share with him, this is on the tape, a theory about how the shooting might have occurred with a confrontation, a scuffle, the gun in the truck and was stolen. And the cop had told him, I don't believe you went over there to hurt anyone.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Tom, you're the one. Who else would it be? There's 200 fucking people here and you're the only one stalking these people. So they said that Thomas then shared the rumors around town of his potential enemies and that he knew people would suspect him as soon as he learned of the death.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And they went on to tell him he'd be the cops went on to tell Thomas that he would be better off telling them up front that he didn't shoot Brian on purpose. It's an accident. Tell us.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. Give him the little window. They said it would look worse when the evidence was collected on top of stalking. You've admitted to stalking. It's going to look bad. And he said, I have nothing to hide. That's what they heard. So the interview can also included a discussion of whether Thomas had ever been inside the trailer and all of that shit. So they continue to play all of the interviews.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The investigators mentioned having some concerns about his previous statements, and they specifically hone in on his lack of alibi, all of that shit. They said, do you have any idea how important that is to you? Because they said the defendant admitted to pretending to have car trouble in the middle of the night and that Brian let him use the phone for assistance.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And they said, do you have any idea how important that is for you? That you were in the house, so your fingerprints might have been in there. And he said, I do now.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I get it now. And they said that, look, we're not here to judge you, but we're here to help you. Because that's always what people, that's what they're here to do.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And that confessing would actually help him down the road. They said, they told him prosecutors were chomping at the bit at that moment. So he said, if you're trying to get me to confess, I won't because I didn't do it. That's that.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Then they told him, this is what your trial is going to be like, a parade of witnesses who are all going to say you're a scumbag and a stalker and a crazy person and, you know, all of that kind of shit. And then Thomas said, Ken, I've told you once. I've told you twice. I didn't do this.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
OK, he said later he wished he wouldn't have behaved the way he did after the breakup, but can't take that back now. Time of death is a big deal. The defense attorneys are talking to people that say Jim Arthur and Bill Meek said they saw Brian eating a steak in the Square Butte bar around 630 to 7 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Maybe. Here's a four-bedroom, two-bath, 2,638 square foot. There's no other way to put it, but it's a shack. It's a shit shack. You'd see this and go, oh, God. Even if you were like,
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And then they brought in Dr. Carl Weigrin, a forensic pathologist from Seattle who reexamined the evidence and offer his opinions. And he said that studies have shown that it takes an average of around nine hours to fully digest a steak dinner. The autopsy showed at the time of his death, his stomach did not have steak in it, but contained partially digested eggs and peppers.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Interesting. The defense said that's important. That's medical evidence. And also those people could be mistaken that they saw him eating a steak is the other thing. They could have just saw it could have mixed up. If you ask someone a month later, what was that guy eating? Who the fuck do I know? I don't care. Got a life of my own.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So that's what he was eating, yeah. So they said, though, the defense said, that's important. That's medical evidence. There's no way Brian was shot Friday night because there's no stake in his stomach. They also said that the photos taken of him when his body was found, he looked pretty normal without signs of decomposition or discoloration.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
But in the photos taken at the autopsy Monday morning, significant decomposition had taken place. And they said the decomposition may have been rapid because of the shot through his stomach. OK, now closing arguments. Prosecutors said, I think it's very clear there's something unique about this case. It happened in 1996. It's 19 years old. We know when something like this happens. We never forget.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
We never forget the people that were taken from us. They said it's also unique because it happened in one of the least populated areas in the entire United States. They said a trailer house 10 miles outside of Geraldine, which is a tiny town. They said, when you think about who took Brian from you, think about where this happened. This happened against a person who did not have enemies.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He was a beloved vet who came to this community from Kansas and was well received. He didn't seem to have enemies except one person. Nobody else had any motive or grudge against him. They said they spent a long time reviewing Thomas's behavior there and they said this was not normal breakup behavior. He would not allow her to simply break up and say no. They talked about his encounters with
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Then all the summation here is hang up calls and all that kind of shit. They said that Thomas called Rain's house at 945 that night, hung up and all that kind of shit. Then called Ann at 948 and hang up. They said, so he knows where they are. And then, you know, 1038 is the hang up of the phone when he's talking to Ann and then no one ever hears from him again. Hmm.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
on e and whatever you'd be like i'm taking my chances with the wilderness i'm gonna keep going like you would not stop here see how these fumes treat me yeah there's absolutely no way you're not going to be murdered here uh there's a literally just a big tire sitting in the yard oh my plywood on the door um it's the interior is a piece of shit it's really not a good house 125 000 bucks for this house
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He said, quote, quote, quote, quote. That circumstantial evidence is not good evidence and that you cannot look at the whole picture, that jurors throughout this state cannot look at all the facts collectively and make inferences of what happened.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It can't be said, ladies and gentlemen, that you can simply wear gloves, wear a hat, destroy your clothes and make sure no one's around and kill someone so you get away with it. All the evidence points to there's no doubt that Mr. Jureski killed Brian Rain. All there is to it. They said, so we don't want officers to throw away phones, but what does it mean in this case?
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Like, that still isn't me saying. The evidence, the crime scene stuff, who cares a shit? Doesn't matter. They also said the time of death thing. They said Thomas Jureski is the only person with the opportunity, only person with the motive, and the only person with the opportunity to take him out of this world. They said, and he did it. He committed this crime masterfully. Not really.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You guys are just bumbling idiots. Fuck, the defense attorney said that she played a tape of Thomas talking to investigators years ago saying, I did not go over there. You won't find anything. I guarantee it. And she said, everything we heard the last weeks, after all of that and everything we've done, this case will remain unsolved. It's been 19 years, and there's a reason it's been 19 years.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
After all this, the only thing we have are more questions. The more we look, the more questions arise. The reason we're here 19 years later is because of what happened on day one. She questioned law enforcement statements that they thought it was a suicide. And all that kind of shit here.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They said, you tell me why they asked for a bag of bloody towels and a phone and it was never retrieved and it was thrown in the garbage. And it was ridiculous. They said, you heard these officers try to justify what they did to the crime scene and yet they've really given no explanation. They can't even admit, yes, we cleaned up the whole area. We owe this county an explanation.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They owe Tom an explanation and they owe you an explanation and they refuse to give it. A guy got on the stand and said, I only cleaned up a little bit. And they were like, no, the pictures show you cleaned up a fucking lot of it. A lot of it. Yeah. Not cool. They also said, yes, he did things that don't make sense. He did things that were incredibly stupid, but that doesn't make him a murderer.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Jesus said not at all. He's just a kid who was an idiot, basically. They said that investigators talked to him and found he did not have an alibi. Well, he did have an alibi for Saturday morning and all that. The defense attorney went on to say, all of this is just a story. It makes no sense. They used the word infer, but you still need to infer based on rational quality evidence.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They said that during the trial, the defense suggested that there are other people who might be considered suspects, including primarily Larry Hagenbush and Ann Wishman. The defense said, I can't tell you who did this. I have no obligation to no legal duty to and I simply can't. It's been too long.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
She said the prosecutors have to prove to you that it's unreasonable, unreasonable to think that someone else may have done this. She said, quote, Larry Hagan Butch was the only person who knew Brian was shot with his own gun the day after he was found. The only way he could have known that is if he was the one using the gun. Right. That's right.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I mean, you have to just basically knock it down and rebuild it. No, no. Small lot. Just just that. Here is a three bedroom, two bath, 1900 square foot, 1902 square foot house. It's a basic house. It's just a little raised ranch. The listing lists it as situated in the outskirts of Geraldine, which is everything.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The defense attorney, after all of this, makes a motion to dismiss the case due to lack of evidence. So the judge dismisses those motions. He said, but they asked for it on Friday. He took till Monday to think about it. He said he deliberated it over the weekend and he said, I struggled with this decision.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The judge says when the testimony and the evidence is viewed in isolation, it is mostly weak and conflicting and insufficient to convict Mr. Jarewski of deliberate homicide. On the other hand, when the totality of circumstantial evidence is brought into more specific light, it supports the state's charge.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So, yeah, he listed 12 areas of evidence, multiple calls, last person to speak with Rain, interior and exterior of the crime scene. He was at in the days and weeks leading up to the murder, told others he wanted the guy dead. You know all the circumstantial evidence. The firearms, said he could have touched the cartridges, ATVs.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The judge said, I present these facts as the Montana Supreme Court requires me to in a light most favorable to the prosecution. Yeah. They said this evidence is very close call on whether to dismiss this case for insufficient evidence. I must be mindful of the Montana Supreme Court stringent standard and view of the totality of evidence in the light most favorable to prosecution.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I can't conclude that there is no evidence upon which a jury could base his verdict. OK. Jury goes out for deliberation.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
On this one. No, eight hours is kind of, you know, it's a murder case, so whatever. But that means it's not open and shut for them by any stretch here. They come out here. He's at the table. They find him not guilty.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Not guilty. They said he laid his head on the table following the verdict. And yeah, afterwards, as soon as they did it and the judge said, you know, he's to be released. And thanks for your jury and thanks for your service and all that. The pretrial supervising officer came right over with a pair of fucking wire clippers and cut the monitoring device off his leg.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He is on home monitoring. And his family and friends were in the whole half the courthouse, cheered as they took it off. This was like a. Yeah. The defense attorney looked to all the people and said, you can all sleep now. I did this. I'm good. They all took turns hugging him and all that kind of thing. And then the co-counsel said, all's well that ends well, as the whole group hugged.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Literally had a group hug afterwards. Wow. A literal group hug. So 2016 Dateline comes in here. And the preview montage that led into the show started out with a quote that this was a classic whodunit. No, it wasn't at all a classic whodunit. Not even close. One of the comments on the Dateline Facebook page after the show aired was, for such a small town, there sure are enough suspects.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No, there aren't. No, it's just you couldn't because of the what they did. They couldn't fucking use the fingerprint evidence at all. Otherwise, he would have been dead to rights. Him saying I might have touched it in the dark is a ridiculous thing to say. Then they Keith Morrison says the plains of Montana are no stranger to sudden violent death. History is littered with it.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
It offers single level living and an expansive yard that showcases views of Square Butte Mountain. So there is that. They also say, while some finishing touches are needed to complete this. Oh? It's got some problems here. There is new flooring and fresh paint. $165,000 for that, though.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He said a half hour down the highway from Little Geraldine is a living remnant of America's Old West, Fort Benton, Montana, still holding out against wind and weather and occasional outbursts of the worst humans can do to each other. So people have been talking about this, obviously. Dateline didn't dwell on a lot of the shit here. They really wanted to present it as a mystery. A big whodunit.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
They didn't dwell on the cleaning of the crime scene. They pointed it out quickly, but they didn't go like, holy shit, let's dive into that. When they asked Ken Thompson of the Montana Department of Criminal Investigation how the sheriff's department and the coroner could have thought that the murder was a suicide case,
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
The guy said, I think you have to understand that the county had not had a homicide in I think it was 19 years. I don't care if you've not had a homicide in 100 years. He's got fucking gunshot wounds to his arm.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
He then said Montana's a remote state. Someone's – somewhere you'll drive eight hours to – someone drives eight hours to a crime scene to get to a crime scene. So it's not like a big city where you can roll in and everything's pristine. And then Morrison's voiceover said, no, not even close.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
In fact, the deputies and local coroner spent just a few hours tromping around Brian's kitchen and had taken about a dozen photos and in the process had done things that couldn't be undone without swabbing for DNA or dusting for fingerprints.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Episode aftermath, shitloads of people who comment on the episode on Facebook when Dateline puts it up expressed their incredulity, frustration and anger at the way law enforcement handled the murder scene. Comments included, I can't comprehend how this even who trained these people. Barney Fife couldn't figure it out how the police really bungled this very sloppy.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I would sue the police department for botching the crime scene.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Never, never. Old episodes, it's up, I'm sure.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
No, no, parched, parched. Looking at the Facebook comments on the episode suggests that the majority of the people who watched the show agreed with the not guilty verdict. Out of the first hundred of the hundreds of comments on the show, only eight people said they felt that he was guilty.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
I think he's obviously guilty, but they fucked up the evidence to the point where it was really hard to convict him. But when someone's stalking like that, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
For sure. Stalker, at least. Some of the people who agreed with the not guilty verdict were convinced that he wasn't guilty, while others said he's guilty, but there's not enough evidence. That's kind of where I'm in, I think. Out of the first 100 people who commented, 23 people said they thought Larry Hagenbuch was guilty or might be guilty.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
But he had a solid alibi up till Saturday.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
At 1038, when Brian hung up the phone, and that's when the confrontation happens, we think, and that's when the guy said he heard three gunshots to the neighbor. At that time, Larry has a fucking rock solid alibi, whereas Thomas does not. So there's that. And Anne has a good one, too. So it's not her either. They have to say it's fucking Saturday.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
So also, nine people suggested that Anne was guilty.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Yeah. The Dateline episode did not suggest that Wishman was even a possible suspect, but that's what people inferred. Although the suggestion did come up during the trial as the defense attorneys brought it up. Wow. The judge says to Morrison here, this was an incredibly tough case to prove. It was a tough case to prove in 1998. It became an incredibly tough case to prove in 2015.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And the episode ends just like we're going to end our episode here with a quote from the judge. Oh, boy. Quote, I meant it when I told the jurors when they wanted to find out who did this, when they wanted to solve this crime, that literally if they believe there's another world they can go to someday, look up Brian Rain when you get there and ask him who killed him. Look him up.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
When you die, look him up in the afterlife in the old white pages and ask him. Because that's the only way we're ever going to know who killed Brian Rain. And that is Geraldine Montana and a fucking mess of a story.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Mobility problems? We got you. You got yourself.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Wow. This shit is wild. So there you go, everybody. If you like that show, please, please get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. It helps so fucking much. Make sure you say something. It drives us up the charts and it's very good shit here. Also follow on social media at smalltownmurder on Instagram at smalltownpod on Facebook and
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Here's a three-bedroom, three-bath, T-bowl for each and every b-hole. 2,028 square foot. It is on 20 acres. Yeah, it's nice. They list it as having a beautiful yard that's landscaped with a nice shelter belt windbreak. That's how windy it is. Something to keep the wind from knocking you over. And an amazing garden pond with goldfish.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You definitely, definitely want to go to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Get your tickets for all the live shows here, except for the couple that are already sold out. Some of them are selling out. It's crazy. Madison, I think it's sold out now. Just about, yeah. I think I saw 100% now. It's sold out. Madison, Grand Rapids, see you later. Portland sold out. San Diego, like 898%.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
That's half the shows almost. So there's Seattle, D.C., Philly, St. Louis, which is like really close to selling out as well, and Chicago. Get your tickets right now. Oh, San Diego and Irvine too. Irvine, California. Get in there. So get in there right now if you want to see the show. We want everybody who wants to come to come. So don't get left out, please. It's a fun time. It's a comedy show.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
You will leave hurting. So shut up and give me murder.com. Here's some extra stuff for you. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get access to everything we have to offer on there. As soon as you subscribe, hundreds of episodes you'll get that you've never seen or heard before. Right.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
And then you get new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small-town murder, and God damn it, you get all of it. You get it all. This week, what we're going to do for you here is for crime and sports, it is going to be disasters of all kinds, industrial disasters, crazy shit going on here, just crazy disasters with nutty stuff.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
Then for small-town murder, we're going to talk about psychics that actually worked, that did their thing.
Small Town Murder
#569 - A Stalker To Die For - Geraldine, Montana
by coincidence or psychic or whatever we'll talk about I figure we're always debunking things and saying that things are bullshit so let's dive into this and people who actually did a good job there you go patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get that and a shitload more like we said and also what you're gonna get right now is a goddamn shout out Jimmy hit me with the names of the best fucking people in the world who would never ever ever stalk us and hang out in our windbelt shelters hit me with them right now
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Was his neighbor already doing this before he even moved in?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's what I mean. Did they talk? How would you get together with Steve Martin to talk about how you both like to kill people and dispose of their bodies? I don't even know how that would come up. They say on the night Felicia vanished, police say she had left work at a convenience store between 1130 and midnight. She went home and her boyfriend was on the couch sleeping, said Trooper Kelly.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She woke him up and asked him if he wanted to do anything. If he wanted a beer. I think I've already had a couple. I'm sleeping. He told her there was... He told her that there was some beer outside on his ATV and that's it. He went back to bed and she was never seen by him again. He was interviewed several times. He's been cooperative with the investigation.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So truly, no one has ruled out as a suspect at this time. And everything he said to us was checked out and appears to be true. Officer Kelly said Felicia went to a party that night, quote, when she left that party with Steve Martin and another male. And the other male was dropped off and her and Steve Martin continued on their way. Felicia Thomas was never to be seen again.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So Steve Martin was also the last person to see Jennifer Barzaloski before she vanished. So they're saying Felicia went to investigate, saying she thinks that Steve Martin killed her friend, but then she went to a party with him and took a ride from him.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's weird. So Kelly says, She went missing in June, which is full bloom in our trees in this area. Heavy canopy, very dense wooded areas, caverns, ravines, creeks, dams, says Kelly. This gives you a sense of just how complicated the search has been for Felicia's body. The focus has been on these wooded areas and forests punctuated by vast swamplands and muddy creeks.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The mom, Pauline, said hundreds of people came out. They came out on quads, on horseback. Everyone was really trying to help. Oh? Oh? Forensics came back. It's a human skull. Quote, both the dental records and DNA on the skull came back to that being Jennifer Barzalowski. Police hope to find more evidence at the location.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They said the scene was scoured relentlessly by forensic services unit to come up with more of the remains. But the only thing that was located was that skull. And he said the officer said, quote, I will say that skull was found within one mile of Stephen Allen Martin's home.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, he said. You'll recall Stephen Martin was the first last person to see them. Now, Pauline suspects Felicia may have been made to disappear because she knew too much. Police have also considered that story. Kelly said for me to say how close she was getting. I can't officially say that because we don't know.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
But it's definitely something that's been tossed around that she had information, information allegedly suggesting that Martin and other men had said to have been friends and neighbors of diabolical killer Felicia. Hugo Selensky may have been carrying on his evil handiwork after he was locked away.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Felicia reportedly had a direct connection to Selensky through their live-in boyfriend, Eric Rudosky, who allegedly took Felicia to a party where Selensky was among the guests. Felicia. Yeah. Felicia had actually partied with Zelensky alleging allegedly more than once. One person said the only connection between them is Ed and Steve Martin. They were all friends.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Felicia used to go to the parties that Hugo was at. Steve was Steve was at with Ed. From all the leads and tips coming in to Judy and Pauline, there emerges one common story allegedly told by many witnesses that adds up to a horrifying account of what may have happened to Felicia after the party that night.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
One witness reportedly told Judy, this other person, Steve Martin was there and a couple of other guys were there and they talked Felicia into going into the bedroom to smoke. And she went and she said soon there was screaming coming from the bedroom and that the man in the bedroom had a camera.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They saw a camera go in the room with the one guy and they were scared they were taping and that she was going to be raped. Several others allegedly told Judy that they heard Felicia screaming, once claiming that he got afraid the cops were going to come because of the screaming. He left because he was scared. He thought they were beating her up.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Judy says several witnesses said Felicia's boyfriend, Ed Rudasky, was also at the party and in the bedroom despite telling the police he went to bed after Felicia left the house. They say they told him to take a walk and he did take a walk. He left her there to die because he left while she was screaming and he couldn't take it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
How about that? 445 to 530, Jacob Gilpin, a 2024 winner of Maple Festival's Vocal Talent. And he's the best country music guy in Vermont, I assume that is.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So another witness allegedly told Judy that several guests saw Felicia's body in the room. She said that when they opened the door that Felicia was wrapped in a blanket and they took her and buried her. So they say, how much weight do you put in that? This person says, well, I do know that I wouldn't be telling you this if I didn't confirm it with the state police.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The state police did get the same story many times, but they've dismissed these stories saying they believe whoever's telling these stories were affected by drugs at the time. It doesn't matter if they were on drugs. So the article goes on to say, I asked state police officer Tom Kelly about claims that snuff films were being made. And is there any truth to these wild rumors?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And he said, to my knowledge, no, I have no information or have heard anything about that. So, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He's heard nothing. He said, is that something that's crossed paths of the investigators on this case? Was it something at one time that was being looked into that there might be a snuff group operating? And Kelly said, yes. I mean, if people related the information to investigators, they may have that information. But me personally, I do not.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So you'll recall that Felicia was last seen leaving the party with Steve Martin in a car and with a second unidentified man. But despite that fact, he was last to see both Felicia and Jennifer. Police were never able to charge him with the murders. But Kelly said Steve Martin was arrested and incarcerated for an unrelated charge and hung himself inside his prison cell, quote unquote. I wonder why.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So there's a lot of signs and inferences that can say maybe he was our guy, but officially we don't have a confession right now, so it's still unknown. He had to be involved in all this.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's what I'm saying. So, wow. So Edward Rudasky has not been charged with any wrongdoing and has cooperated with police. Wow. Yeah. So Crime Watch Daily visited Edward Askey's mother and said, did Ed have anything at all to do with Felicia's disappearance? No, no, no, she said.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They go on to say getting a door slammed in your face is nothing compared to what happens when I go into an auto shop to talk to some of Ed's neighbors. Good morning, sir. How are you? Sorry we've been rolling around the back of your property. I apologize for that. I wasn't sure. And they get cut off. Quote, you're lucky because my daughter-in-law had the gun aimed at you. That's her job.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She called me and told me she said she was all ready to bang and I told her to hold off.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
There's a lady walking around your yard. Shoot her now. And he said, well, I'm glad she's the reporter said, well, I'm glad you said that we're working with Felicia Thomas's family. And he said, I don't know nothing about it other than what I read in the paper. No idea. So anyway, there is a book that just came out in 2024. It's a paperback called Hugo's Graveyard.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, written by, who the hell wrote this fucking thing? Edward Lewis. It has 4.8 stars out of 15 reviews. It's only 296 pages, and it's only available in paperback. What the hell is it about? No audio book. I don't know. So there you go, everybody. Holy. That is some crazy shit in Pennsylvania. Boy, that is insane.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And then Chris Eckert.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
You should do that like when someone sits you at a restaurant. They should go, congratulations, good choice, and then hand you a menu. That's good. Before we get started, definitely head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. That is where you will find all the tickets for the live shows. Everything is there, especially 4-19, April the 19th. It's our 4-20 virtual live show.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Fucking insane. So if you like that story or if you hated it a lot, either way, please tell the world about how great the show is. It doesn't matter. Get on whatever app you're on. Give us five stars. Also follow on social media at smalltownmurder on Instagram, smalltownpod on Facebook. Definitely head to shutupandgetmemurder.com. That's the website.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Head over there and get your tickets for live shows. April 19th is the 420 virtual live show. Want to come to a live show but there's none in your area or just can't wait to go? Anywhere in the world you want to watch this that has internet, we can do it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Do you know who this is?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Just like a regular live show but in your living room and available for two weeks after the show as well to buy, purchase, watch 100 times, do whatever you want with. So do that and get tickets for regular live shows. Chicago, May 18th at the Riviera. You are next up. Get your tickets right now for that. And the night before is sold out. So you definitely want that. So do that. Hang out with us.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It says country. It says torch singer to arson investigator to one man band. No, you don't know who that is. He's got like a harmonica around his neck and he's got cymbals on his knees. You know what I mean? He's got like a fucking accordion strapped to his chest just in case he needs that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Definitely get Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all the bonus material. This week is no different. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get hundreds of bonus episodes immediately upon subscription. New ones every other week. This week you get one for Crime in Sports. We're going to do Fraternity Hazing.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
issues and which you get access to of course and then for small town murder we are going to talk about the Karen Reid debacle as this retrial comes up to a boil so that'll be a lot of fun that's patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the show which is right now Jimmy hit me with the names of the most wonderful fucking people in the world who would never ever ever bury us in their yards Jimmy hit me with them right now
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, boy. Give more.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
This is my favorite. At the bottom of their webpage, it says, final comments. All sales are final. No refunds. You watch this shit and you want a refund. Tough shit. And the pre-sale tickets are $35 for the track seats, $30 for the bleachers. That's the cheapest, $30 to see this.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Wow. That said, crime rate. But we are interested in this story here. Property crime is less than half the national average in this town. So pretty safe. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one-third under the national average. This is great. It seems like a real nice place where nothing crazy happens.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And we are going to talk about... Except for Toby Keith's friend. Except for Toby Keith's friend and a shitload of murder that we have to talk about. Wow, we got a lot. Okay, let's do this. Let's jump in and talk about a guy named Michael Jason Krakowski Jr. Uh-huh. K-E-R-K-O-W-S-K-I. So Michael Jason Krakowski. Everybody's a lot of people's names in this have ski on the end of it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And there's a pierogi festival. I feel like this is a highly Polish area. It has to be. So now Michael has a wife named Kim, and he's a licensed pharmacist.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And he's doing great. He owned his own pharmacy, had a nice home, a wife, and two children all before he was 35. Unbelievable. Dude, life's set. You're set. Just enjoy. Cruise control, count those fucking pills and enjoy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, you're doing terrific. This is great. What year is this? This is 2000, late 90s is when he opens the pharmacy. We'll go through the years here and we'll go through his life a little bit. But that's how he ends up. He's known as a devoted father, a dedicated son, and a businessman held in high esteem by the community. Couldn't be better. So obviously he's going to be on our show.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, clearly. So his wife and others said he was very upstanding and everything like that. A woman who worked with him at a pharmacy earlier in the 80s said he was wonderful. He was kind. He was the kind of kid anyone would want to take home with them, meaning when he was like a teenager.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Nice kid, which sounds really creepy. That sounds like something that like a compliment that Puff Daddy would give us upcoming up and coming singer. A lot of talent type of guy you'd want to take home with you for a while. Have him live in your house when he's 12 for some reason.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. Jesus Christ. So when he was about 16, he began working at a pharmacy as a pharmacy technician. The woman who worked with him said his family was not well to do. They were middle class. He had to work for the things he wanted, I'm sure, for part of his schooling as well. So when he worked at this pharmacy, that's where he met his future wife, Kim, who worked at the pharmacy in high school.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And it's available for two weeks after that. You can buy it. You can watch it 100 times. You can do whatever you want with it in that two weeks. And it is going to be just like a regular live show except anywhere in the world with internet you can be watching. right from the comfort of your own home. So we're very excited about that. I have crazy smoking apparatus to scare the hell out of Jimmy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So that's they ended up hooking up there. Michael graduated from Lake Lehman High School in 1983 and went to Temple University in Philly.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So that's a good, very good school. Yeah. So now Kim. The girl he met that he liked when they were both teenagers, she ended up – they didn't stay together. He went to college. She did her thing. She got married and had a son with somebody else and then got divorced. So that made her available again.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Michael graduated from Temple in 1988 and was a licensed pharmacist in Pennsylvania on August 16, 1988. He worked at the Trucksville Pharmacy. Trucksville is nearby, by the way, in Trucksville, and later at the CVS Pharmacy in Dallas, Pennsylvania. Is that right? There's a Dallas right around here, too.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Very confusing, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
You sons of bitches. You fucking hick bastards coming from the back mountain. So in 1989, he met up with Kim again because she came to the CVS in Dallas just to fill out a prescription, have a prescription filled. She didn't even know he worked there. And he was like, I know you. You're the chick from the pharmacy. And she was like, hey, you're the dude from the pharmacy. And there you go.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So by 1992, they're engaged. Wow. Yeah. And in November of 92, they signed a contract to build a $150,000 home, which was a good amount of money back then. Sure. Real good. At 647 Pritchard Road in Hunlock Creek. They got married on April 9th, 1994. And then they had a son named Tyler on September 25th, 1996. They'll have another son named Connor on May 6th, 1999. Hmm.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So he is killing it, just having a great life. I mean, if this is what you want, if you want to settle down, have a nice business and a nice family.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I mean, it sounds like, you know, the old-timey American dream, you know, quote, unquote. Seems like this would be it, right?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He didn't go stalking her or anything. Yeah, she just needed to get rid of her chlamydia, and then he happened to be there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And then he was like, listen, now I know. I know she's up to date. You know what I mean? She's got all her shots. She's had a couple of things. So they lived a comfortable but average lifestyle. They weren't lavish. They didn't spend a lot of money or anything like that. And maybe that's saving up for later or college funds. I don't know what they're doing.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's going to be fun. And then also get your tickets for May 18th, Chicago at the Riviera. Be there with us. It's going to be a lot of fun. The night before in St. Louis is all sold out already. So Chicago is your best bet. Midwest, get in there. That is shutupandgivememurder.com. Tickets for the rest of the year are in there as well.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. A friend of theirs said they never took vacations. They didn't drive expensive cars. They had a nice upper middle class home, but they didn't live an extravagant lifestyle by any stretch. Yeah. That's just the way it is. Now, in March 1999, Michael and Kim enter into a franchise agreement with the medicine shop. And that's PPE like an old timey. The medicine to medicine shoppy pharmacy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's interesting. On State Route 29 in Eaton Township, which is in Wyoming County, Pennsylvania. There's a Dallas. There's a Wyoming County. The whole thing's too much.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
kingston god damn it's all just too much man named after somewhere else it's it's just too much in pennsylvania none of us like it here i was so confused in the beginning of putting this all together i'm like wait he was in dallas where right fuck and then i was like no oh this dallas because i put like on my notes moved to texas and then i'm like no he didn't apparently he's in pennsylvania scratch that this is a very confusing episode to put together san francisco pa it's it really started with that las vegas in las vegas pennsylvania i don't understand it
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So now Kim is part owner of this business, but she has no involvement with day-to-day operations. She's not a pharmacist. Brilliant. Yeah, it's just those two are on it because they're married. Apparently, though, they start to have some problems here, as we'll talk about, in 2001, 2000, 2001.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Basically, right when he signs this lease to have his own little pharmacy, that's when things start to go off the rails for him. Oh, no. Apparently, there's a quote from one of their friends that said a year prior to their separation, he would not even allow her in the medicine shop. Wasn't even allowed in the store. The few times she tried to enter, he chased her out.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He did not want her involved. He wanted to run everything on his own. Get out. But I need some. No, go. I'm just here for toothpaste. Shut up. Go. I'll bring it home. Get out. I'll bring it later.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So, yeah, the thing is, this whole business and the reason he went from being this open, honest, normal guy to being sort of weird and closed off is because he's doing some shit that is not above board in this pharmacy. Oh, no. He is selling all sorts of painkillers to people. He's one of these guys.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He's one of the, and this is, I mean, Oxycontin didn't come out until the mid-90s, and he is selling it in 99 like it's fucking candy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, absolutely. No, he's doctor shit. He's just giving he's writing. He's giving out drugs. He's just selling people drugs. It's fucking crazy. So it's Lorsett and Oxycontin are the big ones that he's doing. Yeah. Pain killers and opiates. And I don't know if Lorsett's an opiate, but I assume it is. It is Oxycontin. I know. So they didn't. He's also got a mistress on the side.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And you want to get those early because a lot of these places are sold out now. San Diego, Grand Rapids, Madison, Portland. It's a lot of sellouts, so get in there. Get your tickets right now. You definitely want Patreon.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So you don't want your wife coming in when you got strange trim that might be walking through there every once in a while.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, I was going to say, I got a drug deal lined up. I got my side fucking piece coming over. I got a lot going on here. I'll bring the toothpaste home.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So apparently everybody says it's just greed that he's why he's doing this, which is very weird because they still don't live a lavish lifestyle. It's not like he's, you know, he bought a fucking Bentley or, you know, like bought himself a Porsche and he's going to Atlantic City on the weekends. And it's none of that's going on. He's still.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I guess. Yeah. It's just so weird to have an upper middle class lifestyle and then do a bunch of illegal shit to make more money to still live the same lifestyle. It doesn't make any sense. I don't I don't understand what the point of that is. So he would fill out he filled false prescriptions that he knew were false. Yeah. For tens of thousands of pills, that's what police ended up documenting.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So who knows what he actually did. Yeah. They also suspect he filled untold thousands of others that they just couldn't track. So they estimate that his crime netted him more than $3 million in sales of these drugs. Netted him. Not gross. Net. That's after pills paid for.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So I guess he began selling these drugs to people as early as November 99, which is like two months after he got his own pharmacy, which means he's always wanted to do this. And he finally could now.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It would take you a while to figure that out if you were going to just start doing it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, he worked for CVS, which I'm sure is, you know, pretty shrewd. It's a conglomerate. Yeah, I'm sure they keep track of shit there. Yeah. So court records show that he began this as early as November 99. Like I said, a woman named Shirley Richter entered the pharmacy to fill a prescription for Lorset and her address was not listed in court records. They say later she her authorities.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Let's say you've listened to all the other shows. Crime and Sports. You're all caught up on the Evil Knievel series we've been doing. Your Stupid Opinions. You've been laughing your ass off at that. You definitely want Patreon. Patreon.com. slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She told the authorities she obtained thousands of Lorset pills from Michael all the way up until September of 2000. So he was just filling her shit. he filled the prescriptions under the guise that they were refills of an original legitimate prescription that she once obtained. That's how he did it. So he used the same scheme with other people who would travel to his store from all around.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
People would drive for hours to come here because...
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
You're selling drugs. That's what people do.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The investigation started in September of 2000 when a person arrested for using a forged prescription... Said, well, I know a guy who's selling pills out of a pharmacy. Yeah. And that was that. So once once, you know, somebody rats on him. So an undercover state trooper made several buys from Michael in September and October of 2000.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Anybody, $5 a month or above, you are going to get just a giant back catalog of hundreds of episodes you've never heard before and new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you, my friends, Yeah. Get it all. So this week, what you're going to get for crime and sports, we're going to talk about some fraternity hazing incidents.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They continued to investigate the case for several months, interviewing people who purchased drugs from him. So they had a giant. I mean, they tracked thousands of tens of thousands of pills. On April 20th, 2001, they raided his pharmacy, seizing thousands of pills and records detailing transactions and all sorts of investigations start now. This is a big deal.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So, yeah, they estimate he made between the illegal drugs and the insurance fraud about three million bucks. He cleared from all this. They say that the prosecutor says they believe his sole intent in buying the pharmacy was to sell drugs illegally.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's the only reason he was doing it. They said that if he worked for CVS, too easy to catch. This prosecutor said, I think his ambition was to get there, do this for several years, make big money, then quit. He figured in a small town like Tuckhannock, he could get away with it. He was wrong. I would think you'd have a much better chance of getting away with it in a big city.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He did fine. He should have stopped.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I would honestly think in a big city it would be easier to get away with this because there's probably 100 other people doing it. So you're probably the only illegal pill pharmacy in the whole county, I would assume, otherwise. So you're kind of drawing attention to yourself here. So he's charged with three counts of distribution.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Well, many more counts, but he'll later plea to three counts of distribution of a controlled substance by a practitioner. And he'll later plead guilty to insurance fraud and reckless endangerment in connection with a man who overdosed and died on prescriptions he'd supplied.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I don't get it. That's what I mean. I don't understand what it is except that I've led such a just middle-of-the-road fucking lifestyle that has no deviation from the norm, and now I want to be a different person.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I mean, it's just coming out when he got busted. I mean, it's 2001. It came out.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I can't. I don't understand it. It makes no sense. Now, his sister, Maria, is also a pharmacist. And she said she was sick when she learned about all this. She said he was very outgoing and personal. It's so confusing. I don't understand what happened. Apparently something was missing in his life, I guess. Yeah. He's also having an affair at the same time.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Not really sports related, but a lot of the fraternity guys play sports. So you know what? We're going to call it sports. We'll find somebody in there that was on a lacrosse team or something, I'm sure. Then for small town murder, we're going to talk about the Karen Reed case. That is the Boston woman who is accused, again, going through her second trial of killing her cop boyfriend.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He just wants to have another life where he's like a cool guy who has affairs and deals drugs and
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And it is just a wild trial. And I'm going to get you all caught up to speed before the retrial happens here this month. So that's going to be a lot of fun. She's an interesting character. There's about 100 interesting characters in that entire thing. Welcome to Boston. Wow. It's wild stuff. So that's patreon.com slash crime in sports.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well, which is this one. Jimmy will mispronounce your name horribly. So that said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. So I'm telling you now there's going to be jokes and people are going to die. That's how this works. The show. Trust us. One thing. It is all true. Everything here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you. Thank you. It's not like him, you know.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
There's nothing is embellished for comedic effect or anything like that. None of that stuff happens here. Now, you might say, how do you mix murder and comedy? Very easily. You don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It works out pretty good here. Now, if you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, you might not like the show. But I'm telling you, there's plenty of jokes to be made around the murder. Especially, I think I can get away with this. That's a dumb thought. That's...
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, and then she said, this is killing the family. Hugo's not a bad person. It's just not fair. He robbed a bank.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Christ, he is going to be sentenced to, you sir may fuck off, seven years in prison. Just about. A little shy of that for his armed robbery. It's about six years and ten months. And he's also ordered to serve two years of supervised release.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Before his sentence, before a sentencing thing here, a brief hearing was held on Selensky's objection to a statement and pre-sentence report prepared by probation officers that he brandished a weapon during the robbery. He takes exception to that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They found, though, the judge found and the court found that the statement was accurate after a bank teller said, yeah, this motherfucker, they came in and robbed me. It was him and Earl Nagels, his co-defendant, a 31-year-old. And they entered the bank and they made off with $9,777 in cash.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, he had just about all his cut. After they fled the bank, that's when the dye pack burst and stained most of the cash with red dye. So at that point, Selinsky tried to remove the dye from $4,000 to $5,000 of the stolen cash by running it through his mother's washing machine, and he admits to that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So they found the dye in the agitator and all that kind of shit, so that's why he cooperated, because he was kind of fucked here. So, yeah, he's going to serve a bunch of time. And they try to say during his sentencing, he says that he says, I'm very sorry. And then his attorney says, this is a young man with a very serious alcohol problem. That's what happened.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, it's the booze that does it because I get drunk and I start looking for banks to rob. It happens all the time. First of all, you shouldn't you shouldn't be drunk at any really any time a bank's open for business. You probably shouldn't be hammered. Number one.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Going to get fucking Filiberto's. Yeah. Even though you shouldn't be driving. So she said that the lawyer said she realized and that Hugo realized that he needs to get help for his problem when he surrendered to the FBI. So, you know, he's here. Now, the assistant U.S. attorney said, quote, I don't buy it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's a terrible thought. So all that kind of thing. Anyway, for the rest of you, though, you want to hear a great story and a great show we have coming up for you. I think it's time to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs. What do you say, everybody? And let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. All right. Let's go on a trip, everybody. Let's do this. Let's go.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She even says that a bank employee because they keep saying that he didn't intend to scare anybody. He was just trying to get the money.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
But the prosecutor said, that's funny. Why did he rack a shot a shotgun round? When in front of in front of a cashier's face in front of a clerk teller's face. Yeah. So that's interesting. And so anyway, they end up reducing his sentence on the bank robbery to 22 months from a range of 51 to 63 months. However, let the mandatory 60 month sentence on the firearm charge. Left that in place.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And in addition, the judge ordered Zelensky to pay $100 special assessment, a fee charged of convicted defendants. So that's what he's going to get. So altogether, 82 months in federal prison is what he gets here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now in prison, he is stabbed during a prison fight at one point. Oh. Yeah, and people in prison said he wouldn't take shit from anybody. He knew he was in an environment that he needed to be fighting. He was quick to come to the aid of friends as well and people in prison like that. His dad even said when something happened, he would stand up for himself, but he wasn't violent.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So he's not violent. That's what we know. Okay, now... January 2001 is when Hugo is released from prison. This is right around the time that year is when Krakowski gets busted for what he's doing. So he returned to his home and struggled with being out of jail because he was in there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
From 20 to 26, 27 too is a, you know, that's a lot of your formative years there. Yeah. Yeah. So he comes home to live with his family, and I guess they said he didn't get along with his father at this point, with Ron. His lone ally was his mother, and she got to the point where she couldn't intervene because she's dead. She died while he was in prison, so his lone ally is gone.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Adopted, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
No, absolutely. And Ron said that this was a woman who would walk on hot coals for him, meaning for for Hugo. But she died. And he also said, quote, while she lived for her son, seeing her first born in prison issued jumpsuit is what partially killed her. Ron says, yeah, she lost it. And I could see the change. She had cancer, though. I don't think that can cause cancer.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
orange jumpsuits cause cancer yeah wow you know what that's that's some science we need to look into so apparently he and ron and hugo didn't get along about anything anything and i guess ron never forgave him for the bank robbery because it was embarrassing and he's embarrassing for the family and uh i guess ron was a bank manager
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yes. So he was like, you can't do that yet. So after about two months, he ends up moving out of the house. Hugo does. It's not working out at all. He kind of sleeps on some couches for a while, does all of that shit, doesn't really hang out with his family, shows up at his grandmother's 80th birthday party and shit like that. But otherwise, he's away from the family.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Ron said Hugo was offered every opportunity in this house that everyone else was. He just got mixed up when he was 14 and wanted a wild way of life. Yeah, he's got a girlfriend named Christina Strom, by the way, at this point as well. So he's going to end up living with her and they're going to try to have a little life together.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
We are going to Pennsylvania this week. We're going to Kingston Township, Pennsylvania.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So now this is the time when he moves out and everything and he's couch surfing and all that. That's when he hooks up with Krakowski and starts giving him legal advice. Krakowski ended up paying Hugo somewhere between $60,000 and $80,000. which was supposed to be for some kind of legal assistance he's providing for Krakowski, but he's not a lawyer.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So you could just give that money to a lawyer who would actually do that, but apparently he's giving it to this guy for help with I don't even know what. Hugo spent the money that he obtained from Krakowski, including putting a down payment on a house on Mount Olivet Road in Kingston Township. Okay. So he's going to use this money to fuck literally to buy a house.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He's got this girlfriend with Christina Strom. It's going to be purchased in the name of her, in Christina's name. That's the house. So they closed on the purchase of the property, Hugo and Christina, on April 30th, 2002, but they did not have the funds to cover the closing costs, which is about $10,000. Right. So that's that's what they're trying to figure out.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
In Rhode Island, which this town is named after. So there you go. It all connects. I'm telling you, man. When I saw that, I was like, oh, my God, it all connects. Look at that. This is in northeastern Pennsylvania. It's about a half hour outside of Scranton.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, on May 1st, 2002, that is about what is that? April 30th is the closing on May 1st. Hugo's brother gives away a shotgun. This is Ron Jr. He gives his 16-gauge shotgun. That is so weird that that keeps, 16-gauge keeps coming up when it's not the most common shotgun by any stretch.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Weird. And it came up in multiple episodes in the last month. He gives this shotgun to a guy named Patrick Russin, which is Russian without an A. Russin. He thought, now Ron said he thought this shotgun was going to be used to shoot skunks that were running wild on Hugo's property. Just it's a fucking skunk farm up there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Just all skunks, which is the that's the worst thing you could have is a skunk infestation.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
At least rats don't squirt me with stinky liquid if I go outside to throw my garbage out after dark. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Get your asshole juice off of me. So Russen came to Ron Jr. 's house in Dallas asking to borrow the shotgun for skunks. So, yeah, he said the skunks keep spraying these dogs. So we got to shoot these skunks. All right. Now, remember, May 14th, 2002 is Krakowski's sentencing date. Mm hmm. So he's been getting all this legal advice and everything like that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And then May 14th, 2002, the date comes and he does not show up for sentencing.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, no. He's him. Tammy's no longer. They're both gone.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
On the fucking lam, it looks like here. So, yeah, they take off. I'm not going down for this shit, man.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He knows he's going to prison. Yeah, and apparently he was supposed to pick his kids up from school. That is how we knew he was missing before that even happened, before he didn't show up for sentencing, because his ex-wife said that she remembers this day because... She had left a voicemail on his cell phone saying, quote, you better be in a car accident.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
You better be stuck on the side of the road somewhere. You son of a bitch bastard screaming and yelling at him. So apparently they're his parents, Geraldine and Michael Krakowski senior here. knew that their son was involved in these criminal acts and apparently hid a significant amount of his ill-gotten gains at their home.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So this is kind of back in the mountains. Industrial area. This isn't Philly. This isn't Pittsburgh.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The parents ended up, after he disappears, the parents take $40,000 in cash. From the house and go and pay their son's bail bondsman because he didn't show up for sentencing. So now they owe him this money. So rather than lose their house or whatever they put up, they took his $40,000 that he had left behind and they use it for that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, May 4th, 2002, so that is – we're going back 10 days before. There's a deposit here. There's a bank teller who says that Hugo deposited $9,900, deposited, okay, which is just below where you start looking at the transactions. Yep. into Heather Strom's checking account. That's on a Saturday, May 4th here, and explained that he's going to close on a house with this.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
479 Mount Olivet Road is the address that they're closing on. They said that Strom only had $400.46 in her checking account prior to the deposit. So there we go. And then there was a check drawn from her account that Monday for $10,079.50, which I assume is the closing cost. Now, how the fuck did they get $10,000?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's rural. What would you call that? Rural.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Rural, I would call this. Yeah, it is. I mean, Scranton's got some old industrial stuff, but this is, they call this Back Mountain. That's the name of this area.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Well, apparently, remember Patrick Russin, the guy with the shotgun? There's another guy here named Paul Weakley. W-E-A-K-L-E-Y. Paul Weakley. He is a guy that Hugo met in federal prison. Now... Apparently, those two started cooking up a plan. They were buddies in prison and they start cooking up a plan that they are going to rob Krakowski. He's got tons of cash all over his house.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He's a drug dealer hiding cash. So anyway, they Hugo and Paul Weakley went to Krakowski's house on May 3rd, 2002, the day before the ten thousand dollar deposit. They hang out for a while, drink a beer for a bit, hang, just normal social shit. Michael and Tammy are both there, and it's Hugo and Paul. Out of nowhere, Hugo pulls out a gun and orders Michael and Tammy to lay on the floor. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He binds them with flex ties and duct tape.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Duct tape over their eyes, mind you. And then apparently they both beat Michael Krakowski with a rolling pin into telling them where the money was. Where's the money? Where's the money? So they're beating him. He apparently said there's two bags of cash of approximately $60,000 that he has here in his house. And he said his father has another $60,000 cash, too, of his. $60,000.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Back Mountain. So it is a different kind of place than that, buddy. Let me tell you something. Those are two bad words to put together. Back Mountain, that sounds scary. Definitely you hear the banjos and you're like, this is not good.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So that's where Cash is. At that point, Paul Weakley says that Hugo pulled the zip tie around Krakowski's neck until he died.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Strangle him with a fucking zip tie, which is absolutely brutal. That is fucking brutal.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Take one real good pull and that's pretty much it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's a lazy strangulation there. So he tied it so hard that he stopped breathing and he died. Then he went over and killed Tammy the same way.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She's just the girlfriend. She isn't involved in any of this shit. So anyway, he was able to pay his clothing closing costs after that. And now several days after this, but before they actually moved into the property, he asked the property owner, the seller of the house, to leave the property for a day. Just leave. I got to have the house to myself for a day.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Whatever. Yeah, I'm having a priest in. I don't know what the fuck he's doing. So that's what he was told. The guy left for a day, and that was that. Yeah. Hugo also contacted Krakowski's parents, contacted Michael's parents, who they believed that he had taken off and ran away. And he said, yeah. He called him and said, fuck, I don't know where he is either. Do you guys know where he is?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And they said no.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's the thing here. Now, over the next couple of months here, he basically convinces, Hugo convinces Krakowski's father to give him the $60,000 that Krakowski gave his father with the promise that this is for Krakowski's new lawyers who are going to try to help him avoid going to prison for running away from his sentencing.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
We'll find out here. It's about 30 minutes to Scranton, about two hours and 15 minutes to Philadelphia, and about two hours and 25 minutes to Washington Borough, which was our last episode in Pennsylvania, which was the moronic murders, which was one of the craziest. It's the moronic murders because it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. These people were nuts.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So he's telling him, look, I'm in contact with Michael. I need this money so I can pay his lawyers so we can have him be able to come back and all this shit. So then he and the father did it. He gave him sixty thousand dollars. Then he went over and got another forty thousand dollars from Krakowski's father with a little less clever ruse. You know that the lawyer.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, he just pulled a gun on him and told him, give me forty thousand dollars or I'll shoot you in the fucking head. That's all.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, that happened in May of 2002. So a year goes by. Literally a year goes by. They think Krakowski's on the run. Everybody does. They think he's on the lam. He had so much cash from his drug dealing. He's probably in South America by now. That's what everybody thinks. I mean, why else? Why would he stick around if he's got $3 million in cash? Fucking take off.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So then on June 4th, 2003, so about a year later, Paul Weakley, the partner in the Krakowski murder here... Hugo's pal, he gets arrested on a burglary charge and was a suspect in the robbery of a bartender in Kingston Township.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And I don't think these guys are like, well, I got this much for I'm going to move into a sensibly priced apartment and I'm going to budget this out.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I'm going to go to community college with this money and then I'm going to parlay that into a decent career. No, I think these guys are probably fucking off buying drugs and booze and women and whatever else they can fucking get their hands on. Probably going to Vegas and partying or something. Oh, shit. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Based on a burglary charge and being a suspect in a robbery case, which this is a guy who's already been in federal prison, so he's got a record. He's in a lot of trouble. He decides to start cooperating with the cops.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And he goes, I know of bodies buried at a house on Mount Olivet Road in Kingston Township. He gives all these statements regarding the killings, exactly what we just told you, which we'll tell you in more detail later. He initially attempted to distance himself from this. Like, I was there, but I don't know, nothing. Eventually, he confessed to his involvement.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yes, I hit the guy a couple of times, asked him where the money is and all that, and says he can lead law enforcement to the burial site as well. He can do that. He said that Hugo had in his possession a shoebox filled with cash that Krakowski had given him, constituting an incredibly large sum of money, like maybe $100,000. We know that money is completely gone, so we know that for a fact.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
This is in Luzerne County, Luzerne County, like the dairy product with a Z. Oh. L-U-Z-E-R-N-E. Isn't that a dairy product like that, I think? Or that's with a C. I'm not sure.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
There might be a shoebox with, like, four singles in it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So Weakley told the cops here that on the day of the murders, he was the one who dragged Krakowski and Tammy Fassett's bodies out of his car and into the residence that he shared with Hugo and his girlfriend, Heather Strom, at their new house that they just got. So that was the old house because then, yeah, that's the old house.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And they stayed at a hotel. And then two nights later, after the murder there, they left. The bodies were in his vehicle then. And that's when he said he was going to bury them after that. He says about Hugo, quote, when he gets those googly eyes, watch out. Googly eyes. Great googly boogly eyes.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. And they were like, we think he's lying about a lot of this, but not the Krakowski thing. So June 5th, the very next day, Hugo's sister, Marianne, says she was at her brother's house, the house that he moved into with Heather Strom. They were preparing for a graduation party for her daughter, apparently. That is when the house is swarmed with police with search warrants here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's a nice graduation for that poor kid. I feel, dude, all her friends were there. That sucks. Imagine that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They start digging corpses up, for Christ's sake, while you're trying to... The punch is good. You can have some. We got a six-foot sandwich.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
There you go. But that's with a C, I think. Different. The motto here is the gateway to the back mountain. Okay. That's the motto of the town. So they're proud of it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Balloons? There's not usually balloons at corpse unveilings, like a corpse unearthing. There's not usually balloons and party favors and shit.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's so strange. So they said that the woman said she was very shocked when she learned what was happening. His sister said, this is Hugo's sister, quote, he immediately looked at me and said, oh, my God, they're looking for bodies. That's not good. No. That's pretty bad. If a bunch of cops were in my yard, I'd go, I don't know what the fuck they're doing here. I would have literally no idea.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He knew exactly. He knew exactly what was happening. Nailed it. I'd be very confused. I'd be like, maybe they're setting up on the neighbor. I don't know what's happening. I've done nothing. So, yes. So he's arrested, Hugo, obviously, on June 5th when they served the search warrant and found bodies in his fucking yard.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They find the bodies of Krakowski and Fassett buried in a mixture of natural earth, store-purchased soil, and coal remnants.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, not tried. Yeah, we'll talk. Well, the coal is from other fires. These two are not burned. We'll talk about people who were. Investigators also discover a burn pit on the property with the remains of at least three people.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
These are three people besides Tammy and Krakowski that we just found.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yes. They identify two of these people as Adia Keeler, 22 years old, and Frank James, 29 years old. Okay. And they have nicknames, too, we'll get into. Frank James is... We'll get into it. So... There's a guy who lives on a trailer on Hugo's property, said he was talking to Hugo when the cops showed up, and he said they must have known what they were doing because they went right to the spot.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
You want to get the taint to the back. It's really the taint. It leads you to the promised land here. So a little bit of history here. Kingston Township was one of the original townships formed by the Susquehanna Land Company of Connecticut in 1790. This is old. Yeah. The township is named after Kingston, Rhode Island, and was originally called Kingstown, like Kingstown.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Because Weekly had told them. Now, that was when they bring Patrick Russin into the whole deal here, and Patrick Russin says that the shotgun that he got to shoot skunks from Hugo's brother was the same shotgun used to murder... These two men that we found in the burn pit. So the prosecutors later, uh, they say that, that, you know, he killed, it was Frank James.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
His name is Rudy and a Daya Keeler's nickname is red man. You can't kill red man. Uh,
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
No, it's a guy. It's a guy. Adia is his name. It's a man. Oh, what is it? Adia. A-D-E-I-Y-E.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I think it's Adia. But yeah, Redman. Both of them are black guys, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Got to be a what? a chaw guy red man the pouch oh my god what are you doing dude i got so scared for a second i was like what kind of weird fucking racist rabbit hole are you going on here a chaw guy what does that mean i was like i don't even know what that means i was like what is happening right now who am i talking to Ladies and gentlemen, my partner, Andrew Jackson. It's been a long time.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Maybe. Just from knowing a lot of black people, there's kind of red is kind of a yellow. There's people that are more red. So he might be Redman for that, or he might have really liked Redman.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
This is like 2001 or, you know, who knows.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I said, I'm Redman now. This is my partner, Method Man. Here we are.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Just all the time. So besides implicating Hugo as the trigger man in the murders, Patrick Russin also says that Hugo called his younger brothers to ask if he could borrow the gun the same day as one of the murders. So Hugo asked to borrow the gun. Russen just went to pick it up. That's what he says.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So Russen also says he couldn't remember if Hugo went to pick up the shotgun or if the guy came or if Ron Jr. came and delivered it. But Ron Jr. says Patrick came and got it. So it's neither of the things Patrick says it is. So, yeah. Now, apparently, the murders of Frank James and Redman Keillor here, Selensky picked up Frank James and his girlfriend, Yurita Bradford, at a Wilkes-Barre hospital.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Wilkes-Barre? Wilkes-Barre. Yeah, right. Wilkes-Barre? I think it's Wilkes-Barre, right? It's Wilkes-Barre. I think it's a real it's weird, but I think that's what it is. Pick them up on May 13th, 2003. So that is, you know what, not even 10 days after the murder of or just that was exactly 10 days after May 13th.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, no, that was, I'm sorry, that's a year and ten days after he killed Krakowski and Fassett. So apparently the woman here, Yurita, had just given birth to their child, her and Frank James' child, and Selinsky took them to a city Rite Aid in the afternoon so she could get a prescription.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He gave them a ride to her Sherman Hills apartment where somebody else popped in, and that's Adia Keeler, Redman. He popped in both of these guys, by the way, apparently allegedly sell drugs, Frank and a diet. So that is when apparently Selensky took both of these guys. So drop the baby and the and the new mother off. This guy is coming home from the hospital with a new baby.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And they just dropped the W. The township was downsized later when whole regions were stripped away to form new municipalities. So it used to be a lot bigger place. Some reviews of this town. Here's four stars. In the largest part, Kingston Township is a great place to grow up and settle down.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And he's like, hey, you guys go inside. I'm going to go with my friends for a while. See you later. Imagine any any guy who's had a child.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
yeah with a woman come home with a woman you're with and everything like that imagine number one you get a ride from your friend to go home from the hospital and then you're like all right peace while she like carries in like a car seat and a bag with fucking diapers in it and a baby on one hand all this shit you're like that thing alive alone
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
i'm gonna go out for a while i'll see you later like that is ballsy try that move i'm going out with my fry what you were in there you were in labor for like 12 hours that was a long time i had to sit there with you so now i gotta go out wow cooped up in that hospital for the last 48 hours i gotta go i gotta go i got some fucking some tail to get on the side here um so now he's driving away hugo's driving away with rudy and red man here okay
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Having a little party. This guy's having pizza at his friend's house. Wow. Mind exploded.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
My ex-wife would have stabbed me in the throat if I did this. Mix that with like postpartum and everything else. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Fuck, yeah, yeah. She may have taken my life. That's what I mean. You would be deserving of it. So Patrick said at one point he went to sleep inside the home during this. That's how long it was meandering. They're hanging out. Selensky later went inside and told Patrick Russin. This is according to Russin that the guys are in the garage and Russin went to get them.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And as he did, he saw Selinsky grab the shotgun and load it with three shells. Then they went into the garage. Patrick Russin said he heard a bang, one loud bang. He says, quote, so then he turns and sees Frank James, Rudy, falling to the ground, shot. That's what he said. He then chased Redman and handcuffed him. Hugo does. That's what that's what Russen is saying now.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Those in between, however, may find it to be too slow-paced and quiet and seek the excitement of distance. Everybody says, nice place to either grow up or retire. That's kind of the way everybody keeps talking about.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So apparently here, Patrick Russen says that Hugo dragged Frank James's body into the garage and stole his drugs and money. Around the same time, he said, Selinsky went back outside and Russin heard Selinsky talking to his former girlfriend on the phone who lived at his house from outside the garage. Or not on the phone, just talking to her outside on the property.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
This is why while they kept Redman tied up in the garage for a while and then inside the home. So the next morning after the girlfriend left for work at about 730, Selensky began interrogating Redman for information about another drug dealer he wanted to rob. He just held him hostage all night till his girlfriend left. His girlfriend came out and said, what was that noise?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And he went, oh, I dropped a fucking thing and it's fine. She goes, sounded like a gunshot. And he's like, no, no gunshot. That's crazy. Yeah. And he's like, OK, no more gunshots till she leaves for work.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So apparently Redman cooperated, even offered to help, even offered to help before they ended up taking him outside. And Patrick said then he heard another shot and Redman was shot and on the ground. And Selensky told Patrick Russin to pick him up. But I guess he wasn't dead, red man. So he tried to get up. He was trying to get up. And Hugo shot him again.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And Patrick said he didn't move after that. So what they did is they took the bodies into the burn pit and burned them and tossed the remaining bones in garbage bags, which were also found. Bags full of burnt bones they found.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Fuck, man. That is pretty goddamn crazy. And he says that Paul Weakley also helped with the burning and the disposing as well. So that is pretty fucking wild. Yeah. Because they came in, they identified the bodies of Krakowski and Fassett and then literally found more bodies. And they were like, well, if these are the people we're looking for, who the fuck are these people? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So this is a mess now. Now we have at least five bodies.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And they have bone fragments of what they believe are up to 12 people all together here. This is a mess, a fucking mess. I mean, it's John Wayne Gacy's house just out. He didn't have a yard this big or else he would have just did this. It's so many people. It's so many people.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
This week, in Kingston Township, Pennsylvania, what begins as a simple search for a missing pharmacist turns into the discovery of a makeshift graveyard with as many as 12 bodies, many of them burned and smashed. But will it be enough to convict this suspected serial killer? Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, if you're 26 and out looking for, like, mates, this isn't the place you want to be, probably. Four stars here. Sunoco gas station is right down the road from me. Well, brag. Wow. Brag much, asshole? Jesus. Aren't you cool?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He's just thinking like, I can just do things, kill people, and throw them in the yard. No one will notice. It's just a habit he's gotten into now. It's weird as fuck. So now his ex-wife here, this is Krakowski's ex-wife, Michael, the victim here. Yeah. She said she doesn't know how his body ended up in her cousin's ex-boyfriend's backyard because also, yeah, Hugo was involved in that as well.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Hugo went out with another cousin of hers. The cousin said she doesn't know either. So I think that's how they met, by the way, is through the family. Because I think we'll find that out later in court. Really? Yeah. She, by the way, has been telling her kids that her father was missing. Their father was missing for the last year. We don't know where he is.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
But now she said that his remains are identified. She told her kids, I just want to tell you we know where Daddy is now.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And then she said, he's in heaven. He died.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
You got to start that out with bad news, kids. You can't say, hey, kids, we know where daddy is. He's in heaven. Oh, Jesus. She thought once back in the day, she thought that he should just be left in jail for what he had done to his family, you know, with all this legal bullshit that Krakowski caused.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Remember that? I remember. That was great. Yeah, gin and juice was fun.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
There's a Sunoco like an eighth of a mile from my house. I never thought to brag about it. It was just rebuilt and is up to date. Wow, this is just a review for Sunoco. I visit there almost every day because they carry every essential needed. That's the whole review. Wow. That one probably does because it's probably in a rural area. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're probably smart to do that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I didn't really get the wealthy thing here. I didn't really get that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Where you get your essentials. I don't know about... I mean, I'm sure there are some wealthy people that own large swaths of land and shit, but that's... Population, oof. Population, 7,076 people here. Okay. So pretty small. Way more females than males. 52.7% women here. So that's way above out of whack. It's usually like 50.1%. Median age is higher than it is in the rest of the country.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Except for Suge Knight.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Somehow.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So, yeah, this is two buttons, Tommy Hilfiger Snoop Dogg clothing jeans that were found in garbage bags outside the home. A charred Nike shoe sole with the trademark swoosh still intact was also presented as evidence here. The letters SDC, which stands for Snoop Dogg clothing, were clearly visible on one button. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And witnesses all said that both victims were last seen in that clothing, by the way. Oh, boy. You can tell a pair of Snoop Dogg jeans when you see it. That's all I'm saying. So there's also a chandelier that comes into question here. Ron Selensky, Jr., this is his brother, not his father, said that his brother Hugo asked him to remove the chandelier from the Mount Olivet Homes garage.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's about 48 here, which is 10 years higher than the rest of the land here. About 56% married, very few people divorced, very few people single with children. Yeah, I don't know what it is. You just get your plot of land and you're going to stay here and... That's that. You're going to stay married even if you hate each other.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The conversation took place at the correction facility here at the county jail where Hugo's being held. And the chandelier is relevant to the prosecution's case because Hugo Selensky and Patrick Russin allegedly stole the chandelier and other items from a former Plymouth clothing store. Before Keeler was killed, Hugo and Russin allegedly interrogated him.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And the owner said that, yes, he did that. They said that was not the only thing Ron and Hugo talked about that day at the correctional facility. They also were talking about the bodies. And they said, did you ask him what was going on? And Ron said, yeah, of course. He said, I'm being set up. I didn't do it. People are placing bodies in my yard. It's crazy. I mean...
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Really, like once a year you should go around with a cadaver dog just to make sure nobody, like while you were on vacation, at work one day, just happened to slip a couple of bodies in there. Because you really never know. I mean, honestly, get in there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
If you can find that, there's a body not far behind, obviously. Now, he goes to court for his preliminaries. He's described as looking cocky and unconcerned in court. He always looks cocky and unconcerned. He's a real cocky asshole, Hugo.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He stared down the witnesses, which, again, that's a new one.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Right. I fucking witnesses. That's a lot. Yeah. Smiled at the prosecutors. All that kind of shit. Thought he was cute. He's. Yeah. He's essentially Karen reading. That's exactly what she's doing right now. It's less threatening because she's a lady. Not a dude with 12 fucking bodies. Yeah. 12 bodies in his yard. If she had 12 bodies in her yard, I don't think she'd be that smug, though.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's what I'm saying. Well, we'll talk about that at the Patreon. Don't you worry about that. We got a lot. Can't wait. And there's a lot of dirty shit going on there, too. There's a lot, man. That's one of those where you go, oh, we'll hopefully have an opinion on it by the end of the episode.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So this guy here, he said he told reporters he knew nothing about corpses and garbage bags full of burnt bones found in his home. I don't know nothing about it. No, no shit. So after this, this is in July, police complete a 35-day search of the property. And then Christina Strom comes back, lives there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. They said accompanied by a large black dog, she was seen walking in the yard at about 1.30 p.m. And a reporter came up to her and she said, I really don't want to be interviewed. Sorry.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. Is this where the corpses were? Yeah. So 2003, while Hugo's in jail awaiting multiple trials for lots of shit here, he has a conversation with his father, okay, or whatever, adopted father. And Ron said, there's crazy people in this world. That's why you're sitting here. There's a crazy person in Luzerne County Jail, Hugo. That's what he told reporters afterwards. My son's crazy. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So race of this town, 96.8% white, 1.1% black, 1.3% Asian, 0.5% Hispanic. The unemployment rate here is skyrocketing here compared to the rest of the country. It's 9.6%, which is really high for a spot. I think it's just rural. I mean, I think that's why they're so jacked about the Sunoco.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He said that when the reporters first knocked on his door, he said that he told them right away, the only connection I have to him is our name. That's it. He's adopted. I don't hang out with him. Literally, he was just like, don't know him.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He said, I had a normal, stable family of seven children. And he said this. He's the oldest, by the way, Hugo. And he said that it was disassociation. They're not together. He said he was a mischievous kid who thought it would blossom into such a notorious criminal record.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He says it's, you know, seeing his son splashed across TV screens and front pages has been less painful this time around, he said, though. The first time with the bank robbery was worse. Trust me.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now I just say, fuck him. He said, it's been a hell of a lot easier than 10 years ago. People are compassionate people. I would never expect people were much more brutal 10 years ago. Yep. He said, now he said, then he talks to the fucking reporters about the other six children and everything like that. And he said, the age span of the kids ranged nearly two decades.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And he says, I have six other children. Six out of seven is not a bad record. Six good ones, you know?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So October 2003, it's a Friday, a little after sundown, so anybody orthodox can't turn the lights off. And that's a very northeastern joke. And you didn't even get it, did you? No.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Orthodox Jews can't do anything after Friday at sundown.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They can't do anything until the next day.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's the Sabbath. They're not allowed to do stuff. There's a whole industry of people that make devices to get around it. It's hilarious. Really? Every weekend they do that? I'm not saying your religion is hilarious. I'm just saying it's hilarious that you're like, you know, maybe I can get around it, though. That's funny.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Anytime you try to get around what you think is the word of God, I always find that hilarious. It's like, I think he knows. He'll probably know that you're...
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, they look for loopholes like it's the law or some shit. So October of 2003, Selensky opens up a window at the Luzerne County Correctional Facility and uses a rope made of bed sheets to climb down seven stories- Seven stories. Seven stories he climbed down.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Nobody saw this old-timey burglar fucking rope hanging out of a window? What are we talking about? This is the silliest. This is a cartoon how you escape from jail. 70 feet of bed sheet. That is impressive. And then tossed a mattress over the barbed wire fence to escape. Brilliant. Climbed right over it. His partner in the jailbreak is a guy named Scott Bolton. He didn't do so well.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He fell and suffered internal injuries and broken bones when he slipped off the rope there and plummeted during the descent.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I think he fell about 50 feet. It's not good. Wow. He was in critical condition. They had to airlift him out and everything. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, Bolton has a fun record. He walked away from a prison work release program in 2001 and spent almost three years as a fugitive.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
During which time he stole 70 ATVs.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Valued at over $600,000. 70 ATVs.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Kept stealing them. I guess he was probably selling them to people. I mean, there's a big market for those because people don't take them on the road. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. Make a homemade one. If you're using it in the woods in your backyard, no one's ever going to check that. So, yeah. While on the run, he eluded capture several times, including a close call in which he ran barefoot through the woods and then jumped into the Susquehanna River to escape. Yeah. Impressive. And he was finally captured in September, and then in October they're trying to escape.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I mean, there's one guy standing there behind the counter. That's all they got here. Median household income here is $75,285 a year, which is slightly above the national average. But I wouldn't say it's all rich people here. That's not what I would say. Cost of living here, 100 being regular average. Here it's 80.6. So pretty low compared to the rest of the country.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And then fucking fall out a window also. Yeah. So, yeah, police immediately upon the escape. Now, fucking Selensky's gone. Hugo took off. Gone. They catch Bolton, but Hugo's off. Police notify Selensky's family, members of the Krakowski family, and others associated with him of the escape. Hey, heads up, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They thought they were seeking out family and friends and questioning them in hopes of finding where the fuck he is. Now, Hugo's half brother, Ronald, here, they took the press talk to him and he's like, Jesus Christ, man, what do I say here? He said, quote, if he's innocent, he's going to be proven innocent. This just makes it worse. He should just turn himself in. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He says he worries that the cops are going to shoot Hugo. That's how this is going to end because he's a fugitive. He said they don't know him. They hear all these things. They see him. Even if he's not armed, someone might take a shot at him.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
is fair so they're searching for hugo and this is a fun article here the headline is in darkness a grim search is launched from a newspaper and it says wilkes-barre fire captain chris hughes didn't need to think about it you want the knife on asked firefighter robert steininger helping hughes suit up to look for escapee hugo salinski yes he answered immediately
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
In a second, Steininger had the sheathed knife secured to Hughes' upper right arm. It was about 1.30 a.m. Saturday, more than three hours since Selensky rappelled down the side of the county correctional facility. Hughes was already in his wetsuit and at the Nisbet Park boat launch on the Susquehanna River with the city's hovercraft.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The knife is standard equipment, he said, in case a rope needs to be cut, for example.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
But a police officer carrying his pistol said that, yeah, we're keeping this too, though. Don't worry. I got this just in case. They said this isn't a river rescue. This is a search. So I guess they said that they've been at the boat launch since about midnight waiting to know when we're going out.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They said when the deployment order came down, Hughes was told he would take a police officer with him. Hughes had one request, bring a small guy because weight makes the hovercraft hard to maneuver.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Going up and down the riverbank looking for them in the water. So they got somebody there. They bring a cop in, and the fireman told him, you're going to get wet. That's a guarantee. So the guy took off his uniform jacket, boots, gun belt, and put on a wetsuit here to protect him from all this shit. They were suited up, and they were doing their thing here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He left his uniform behind but kept his gun. So they're going on and looking for him here. Now, relatives here, they're talking about his relatives are worried. Selensky Sr., here, Ronald, as he tended to yard work in his home here, they also talked to Christina Strom, his girlfriend. They went up to her. She was walking her dog again. That's all she does is walk her dog.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. And so other people said his ex-girlfriend's mother, they advised her even of the escape. She said, we're fine. He would never come here. That's it. Now, Frank James's brother, Randy James, said, quote, this is crazy. I thought they were supposed to handle things a little better up there. How can they let someone like him get away? Right. He said, how is he not in a more secure facility?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
How could you put someone like him in a county prison? That's like a daycare for this guy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I mean, we didn't expect that. There actually was a fuck-up on their part, though, where they didn't talk about it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Well, no, he had to gather that. Yeah, it was quite the plot here, yeah. Really? Really. Yeah, it wasn't all his bed sheet is he got people to help him. So he yeah, they said that. How could you put someone in county prison? And James said he hopes to keep the information from his mother, who's been upset with the slow pace of the investigation already.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, and the housing cost is low. Median home cost here, $181,000.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He said she sees her son's not getting justice. Now this maniac's on the loose. So residents are also pissed or rather live around the jail. Yeah. They were like, what the fuck? This is ridiculous. One said, quote, we live by the prison, so you think it's safe here. What? What's that now?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Look at the aerial view on Zillow of housing prices right around a prison. Not quite as high as if you get away from the prison sub.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I figured the place they keep all the criminals would be the safest place to live next door to, right? Which it would because they're going to take off and run past your house to get away from here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, we've heard of that before in cases we've had where they break into a house right by there. He said, this person said, obviously it's not that safe. They took the entire window out. You think someone would have heard. And how do you hide a bunch of bedsheets? Right. One guy says, Right. Now, how he collected the sheets also played on one guy's mind here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's what I mean. You'd feel rich if you're, yeah, it's pretty good. So maybe everybody that's listening right now really wants to move here. Just in case you do, we have for you the Kingston Township, Pennsylvania Real Estate Report. Average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $1,030 a month, which is way lower. A couple hundred under the national average.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Frederick Hopps is a neighbor who previously was incarcerated at this jail.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And he said, how did these men avoid detection from patrolling guards? He said that he believes the men must have had help from other inmates or someone else inside the prison to collect the sheets needed for their escape.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He said, you're issued two bed sheets when you go in. More or less, if you put your name on them, they go to the laundry and back, and that's it. Those are your sheets. So other residents said the same thing. They said, quote, it was too easy for him to get away. It had to be somebody on the inside. And one person said, let him head over to Manhattan, to the Rock. Let him get out of there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He'd be shark bait. Okay. I guess Rikers or Alcatraz. Alcatraz is the Rock, isn't it? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
No. No. Just Rikers.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's their version of it, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Wow. This is the back mountain, so we'll give kind of a little bit of break here. And state police said that they don't know if he's on foot, if there's a vehicle. They don't know what to do here. The state police trooper said, what's to say that Hugo can't change vehicles every hundred miles? We don't know where he is. Who the hell knows?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
But after a week here, or not a week, I'm sorry, three days, he turns himself in.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yep. He said he turned himself in. About an hour and a half later, he's going into the jail, and a reporter asks him something, and he says, I wouldn't have missed this trial for anything. He smiles. Really?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's all. Yep. He was on the lam until about 8.40 p.m. on Monday. So pretty old days. He made it. Yeah. When he turned himself in at his own home. He went home to turn himself in.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He probably went home, banged his girlfriend, and then was like, all right, dig me now.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Jesus. Well, apparently the police got a tip that he was there. So they showed up at the house, but Christina Strom refused to let them search the residence when she had previously allowed multiple searches. And now today she's like, no, you can't come in. So about two hours later, the state police said that Hugo's lawyer called saying that he's ready to turn himself in, basically.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So he was arrested at the house at 847 p.m. on Monday without any incident. They said that, you know, he surrendered. They said we pulled in. He came walking out with his hands up. I'm ready. There you go. And yeah, they said we left about an hour later. His attorney said he'd meet to meet us there. And that's what happened, which is fucking wild, I think.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Anyway, so they said that they're unsure why he specifically request. He requested two specific officers. which is weird. Yes. And the lawyer said, I'm not sure why he requested those specific officers. They said, we hadn't discussed it. He said, I'm going to have to wait and see. I was more concerned just to make sure that no one was injured.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Uh, no one, you know, that he wasn't injured in any way. He was wearing army fatigue pants and a t-shirt. He'd been wearing gray sweatpants when he fled the prison. It's unclear where he got pants from, where he changed. I assume his house, he was in his house. So, you know, could have been doing that. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
State police reached into a pocket of his camouflage army pants and withdrew a $10 bill, a business card, several slips of paper containing phone numbers and addresses, and a handwritten note on lined paper that had worn at the folds. There's that. All that shit. So he's had some stuff in his pocket.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He said, I'm looking forward to the trial. That's all there is to it. I'm innocent, and that's all there is to it. Then he said, I wouldn't have missed this trial for anything. So they said, though some might say that these escape charges would indicate he was trying to miss the trial, he said, no, absolutely not. That's crazy. Just having some fun. So they were saying there was intelligence.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The police said there was intelligence that told us he was in the area. He was probably going to be at the residence. Now, where did he go? What lavish fun did he have? Right. He went to his aunt's house and was hidden in an attic for a day. Is that right? That's one. That sounds better than jail, I guess. I don't know, mildly.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Here's a three-bedroom, one-bath, 1,125-square-foot house. A little starter house. It's a small house, 1,100 square feet. It's on .36 acres, so not a huge lot.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Then he left the house in Pittston after a day, and the court paper shows he was dropped off in a wooded area of the back mountain, and he must have used a car to get there, a car left there to make it to his house. Someone must have helped him. Right. So he turned himself into the police anyway. So there we go. Now, reactions. James's mother found out about it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Apparently, the son didn't keep it from her. And the son said she fell to pieces when she learned that she that he had escaped. And when they were notified he was captured, she said, oh, my God, I feel so much better. I was petrified. He was headed for Brooklyn. I couldn't sleep. So come kill your family, too.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
No way. Staying out. Now, how the fuck did he get out of this window?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's something interesting. Well, the jail window wasn't fixed after the last escape in 1989. It's been almost 15 years. Yeah, it's crazy. They said that this had happened in 89. A guy named Cecil Robbins had tried to escape from the same cell in 89, and they said the window was too small, too thin, poorly installed, and secured with only caulk after this guy had fucked it up the first time.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He just popped it out.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's all. So they viewed the cell block and said the mattresses in a double homicide suspect cell here had a large slit in it, making it possible for him to hide the 12 sheets he used to shimmy from the prison seventh floor.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's all you could do.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They said, yeah, they're big.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's not like a little bag of fucking Coke or something you put in your pocket. And only one sheet in addition to the four sheets in his cell were unaccounted for in the entire cell block. They said accountability is definitely lacking. And they say that also a shank was reportedly found in his cell.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And that was material from an electrical outlet that could have been used to scrape the caulking from the window. OK, he's got a little piece of metal from that and scraped out that shit. So the captain of at the prison, Al Ottensman, said that this will lead to security changes. He said that they changed the policies, some security I can't talk about.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, that's what I mean. You're not crammed in. You've got a yard. It doesn't look good. The roof has growth on it, which is never a good sign.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
But the sheets we found out that they threatened a lot of those inmates, especially the meek ones. They were just bullying people for their sheets. Like, I thought you'd get raped in prison, not have your sheet taken. What the fuck? This is weird.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They cut eight and got their sheets. So they said they so we have we changed having their names actually printed on some of them. So now, you know. Now, is there going to be escape charges? Well, one of the charges is dismissed on a technicality because the bed sheets used to repel from the prison are.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
cell are admissible here and prosecutors say the prison escape shows his consciousness of guilt so they're holding off on the escape charges till after the murder charges because the bed sheets are admissible evidence in the murder case multiple murder cases now russon patrick russon pleads guilty to third degree murder which i didn't even know that wasn't third degree isn't that just manslaughter
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I think that's just you were in the same city when it happened. I don't even know what that is. For Rudy and Redman here. But Hugo is going on trial for the murders of Frank James and Adia Keeler.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So the defense attorney said the best way to summarize the story that Pat the Rat Russon concocted here, old Pat the Rat, claiming Hugo lured the drug dealers into his home and then shot and killed him, he said, quote, Patrick Russon's a liar. That's my explanation. Lies. Even though they were in my client's yard. He said that the prosecution's case against him is littered with lies.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's all lies. He said there's no evidence that Hugo drove these two guys around Wilkes-Barre, then back to his home here the day that they were killed. He said there's no evidence. He said that a bloody shooting occurred at the home. Although there is flesh on a garage door.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
No, nothing with like a trunk, but definitely some foliage up there that probably shouldn't be. I don't think that's a good sign here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And they're burnt corpses and fucking clothes and Snoop Dogg jeans and shit. So he also said there's no evidence that a massive fire burned the two bodies at the home days after the slayings. He said no neighbor saw it. So how is there a fire? Well, there's fucking a fire pit with burnt bones in it. So at some point there's a fucking fire. Right. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Unless you've dug a fire pit and then we're like, throw our burnt bones in there, but don't light a fire like that wouldn't make any sense. So they said there is evidence, though, of Russon is the one that brought the shotgun over there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
There's also evidence that Rutton or Russon received special treatment in prison, including pay for no work and special visits in return for his cooperation with investigators. He said all that evidence will lead to an acquittal. They said there is reasonable doubt in his story. Reasonable doubt equals not guilty, the attorney says. So physical evidence here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They said they had not been able to find the rake used in the burn pit, the state says, only the shovel. Totally innocent, yeah. The defense attorney also inquired as to why some state troopers could not testify where some items were specifically found despite having control of the property for more than a month.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And they said, did you look for any hair, fiber, fingerprints, spit or any other type of bodily fluid that may have produced any type of DNA evidence? And he said that he the cop said, I don't know. I'm unsure. I got to check the search warrant. I don't know what the fuck the lab does. What do I know? I'll check the warrants and see. Patrick Russin here is the star witness, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, there are rooms that have no floor.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He testified that Slensky called his younger brother to borrow the shotgun, and they said there's no record of such a call to Ron Jr., though, from the phone that Hugo would have used, even though there's that. They said cell phone records don't lie, Mr. Russin. People lie. Is this when you want to say oops? And Russon said, I never made an oops. I didn't lie.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And Russon is so he could have used any other phone on Earth except his phone. That's all it is. Russon is the only eyewitness to the shooting, obviously, which usually there's no eyewitnesses to murder. So Hugo's brother testifies that Hugo never called to borrow the shotgun. They said, was there a time when you loaned that shotgun to Patrick Russin? And he said, yes.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
like it's just all torn up the the floor is a really weird like a flagstone that looks like it should be like an outside path it's a strange house really weird house 119 000 bucks though so it's a bit high it seems like it i guess but yeah you can probably do some stuff to it i guess uh here's a four bedroom two bath 2420 square feet so that's not bad you got a couple of kids you can spread out it's a good size house 0.47 acres so almost a half acre good size plot um
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
When you loaned the shotgun to Patrick Russin, was he in the presence of Hugo? He said, not that I remember. And they said, do you know why he borrowed the gun? He said he said something about skunks running around Hugo's house and was worried they were going to keep spraying Hugo's dogs. So that's no evidence of him being there or being around the gun.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Then they talked to James's girlfriend, Frank James's girlfriend, the one who was allegedly driven to a Rite Aid and then home here. She said she was their first witness, the prosecution. And after rehashing the version of the story, she admitted to lying to police the first time she spoke with about James's disappearance.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, the story I told you is the real story she told of what happened, but she didn't say that at first. She said it was 26 days after James disappeared the cops talked to her, and she said she immediately told police James picked her up from the hospital himself in his maroon Nissan and never mentioned anybody else.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She said she lied because she figured her boyfriend was in trouble, and that's why he was trying to run away, and that's why I haven't seen him in a month because he's in trouble. And now the cops are asking about him, so I'm going to put them on another trail. Okay. That's all.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She said she was trying to cover for them, even though she had already called prisons, morgues and hospitals trying to track him down. She said, I figured I'd try to cover for him. Then sometime later, during the Hugo Selensky investigation, she told police that Selensky was the was the guy who picked her up at the hospital in a white Honda. So, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So they said nobody – they said that no one saw him with the men at the pharmacy. So he didn't go in with her to pick up the prescription. So she could be lying is what the defense said. They said no – the defense attorney said nobody but Pat Russin sees James and Keillor go with Hugo. The white Honda was seized and police found fingerprints inside it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
None of them belong to either a red man, Rudy, or the, the recently birth given woman, either the girlfriend. So they, uh, questioned also the pharmacy's record indicates her prescription was picked up at eight that day by someone else instead of four 30 when she said she was there. Uh,
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She said she couldn't remember if she waited for the prescription at 4.30 and wasn't sure who picked up the prescription. So the defense attorney challenged her credibility and said, quote, you're going to have to judge credibility to the jury, so watch and listen. And so there's that. Hugo Culp, who lives 100 feet from the house, is there in a trailer.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He said nothing about seeing massive fires on the property. He said, I didn't see any fucking fires. Definitely not on May 14th anyway, which we think the fires happened on like May 7th. They said, did you hear any gunshots in the night in question? Oh, that's the other bodies. I'm sorry. That was... Oh, no, they disappeared then, too. So it would have been the same thing.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So they said, did you hear any gunshots in the night in question? And he said none he could remember. And they also said, you know, police found no evidence besides what we said, the minuscule amount of flesh on a garage door, which is enough to me.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Flesh is on my garage door? Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, that's like the Brian Koberger thing where they have the one piece of DNA, the touch DNA on the knife sheath that was at the murder scene, like under the dead girl's body, one of the dead girl's bodies. And he's saying, well, that doesn't mean anything. Well, I don't know. My DNA is in no murder scenes again.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. How'd you get it there? You better have a pretty goddamn good explanation for how that got there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Among other bodies stabbed to death.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, outside the court, things aren't all bad for Hugo.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Because inside court, it's not looking good. But outside the court, he's got a fan club now.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, yeah. Is he hot? Ladies love Hugo.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
L-L-C-H. Ladies love cool Hugo. That's what he is. Yeah. They love him. It's wild. This article says, ludicrous as it may sound, Hugo Selinsky is a babe magnet. Women in offices and bars across Luzerne County describe him as sexy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
this house is just 70s it's the outside of it is like wood the inside of it is an insane 70s wood the kitchen has definitely not been touched since 1983 it's got like that old fridge in it where you're like oh man that fridge is old as shit it's knobs on the microwave yeah it does it's weird uh
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Some female courthouse employees have even popped into the courtroom during jury selection to ogle him, perhaps locking eyes with his blue eyes. People obsessed with Zelensky and the case have even branded Hugoists on one of the many internet chat rooms created in his honor, some featuring his picture.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Here's here's one of the comments from a Web site or, you know, one of the local newspaper Web sites following the whole case. Quote, I personally agree that if you go did to kill two drug dealers, that he did the world a favor. He doesn't really look like a killer in my opinion. He is pretty hot, exclamation point. Oh, well, why don't we just release him then? It's pretty hot. 12 people.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Let's just uncuff the, you got any extra bed sheets for him? Because I bet he'll be using them.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
How many women didn't buy it? Like, he didn't do it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That trial, he talked to those women outside, and they're like, we don't think he did it because that's crazy. He's too handsome. Okay. Oh, God. So they go on to say such Hugo buzz might leave the guys scratching their head and wondering what's wrong with women. We do the same shit. How many guys wanted to fuck Casey Anthony? It's ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
One high ranking county law enforcement employee speaking on the condition of anonymity said he's baffled how a man on trial for two shotgun slaying can memorize mesmerize women and even some men. He said he's our Charlie Manson, our David Koresh. Yeah. Jesus. County Minority Commissioner Stephen A. Urban says he's heard several women around the courthouse call Hugo hot.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
While Selensky's looks and aw shucks grin undoubtedly woo some, his appeal probably won't go beyond the physical description, says Sheila Eisenberg, author of Women Who Love Men Who Kill.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Jesus. Research from her book, very specific niche, the niche audience there. Research from her book showed some women indeed our culture as a whole worship macho men, quote unquote. They said guns symbolize today's tough guys, whether the shooter is an officer of the law or a bad hombre. It's an extremely macho thing to kill someone.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And there's a certain segment of women who are turned on by that. Yeah, we've noticed that. We've seen that lately. And they said also his 2003 prison escape being so daring using a rope of bed sheets probably elevated this for some women. She said it's the Robin Hood thing, the escape from authorities, the I'm going to get my freedom.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
How many times do we see that on TV where some guy leaps out unhurt? This proves he's young, vigorous, has muscles and all that stuff we venerate in our culture.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I mean, Jesus, imagine how good he can clean the yard up after that. Think about it.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Amazing. So they said surviving unscathed is the key, she said, because then he looks like a big guy. Selensky's partner in the escape, cellmate Scott Bolton, fell and landed on the county prison's roof, suffering injuries and leaving him paralyzed from the waist down.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
backyard's nice it's okay but it is 335 000 and it just had a price cut of 15 000 oh then it's gonna go down further before it sells i was gonna say i think this thing i think you could wait on this thing or at least lowball these people here's a five bedroom six bath t-ball for each and every b-hole surplus of those t-balls 11 775 square feet I can't even picture what that is.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Not going to be stealing any ATVs anytime soon. Eisenberg said he's not being described as sexy. I'm sure nobody's writing to him. He's in a wheelchair. A failure in a wheelchair is the way they look at him, whereas this guy's cool.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
God. Selensky received piles of fan mail, some of it rather intimate during his time at the State Correctional Institution at Dallas. He's been asked to be featured in a song by a punk band and has been asked to be featured in an author's book. A picture he said he received from the Philadelphia 76ers cheerleaders read. What? Roses are red. Violets are blue. Hurry up and get out.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
We're all waiting for you. What the fuck is happening? You can fuck free men that are very wealthy, that are right in front of you, literally.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The fact that Allen Iverson's not around, what are you doing? Unbelievable. What are you talking about? Guys can dunk from the foul line, and you're interested in this guy with his bed sheets?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Wow. Eisenberg, who'd been interviewed on many national TV programs about the subject of intimate relationships, said her research found that many women who pursue relationships with killers behind bars want someone they can try to save or reform. Well, yeah. Others simply find bad guys to turn on.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Often the women were abused. Well, yeah. Women who want this probably didn't have a great... Where's your dad? First question.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
What prison was he in? When did he leave and never see you again? Like, let's talk about it. When did he beat the shit out of you? What's going on? So she said, if he's in for life, he's safe, Eisenberg said. He can't abuse her. She's in control of the relationship. And we do get that a lot if you watch Love After Lockup. For sure. And that's men and women that have someone on the inside.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
It's because they control everything. They control how much money they have, how much everything.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Once they get on the outside, it's a little different. So they go on to say, nevertheless, these women usually get actively involved in their inmate's case and fight to get him out, she said, though the relationship would likely fizzle outside confinement. Yeah. Right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. He testified that Hugo showed him a shoebox in March 2002 with approximately $60,000 to $80,000 cash inside. What size are those shoes?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I don't even know what that is. It's like four big houses is what that is. That's four good-sized houses on 11.92 acres. I'm in love. It's just humongous. I don't even know. You get lost in this house. It looks like a hotel. There's a library in it. And what I mean is, I don't mean a room with some shelves. I mean a hallway that you're walking down that's huge with, like,
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
aisles on each side of book like a fucking library dewey decimal system is in play it looks like a borders in this place it's the weirdest like a borders from the 90s it's really cool 1,999,000 bucks for that though which Seems a little high, I would say.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Can we bring it down a notch on the price, possibly?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Things to do here. Well, there's the Edwardsville Pierogi Festival. I've been wondering when that was. I've been looking. It's on my calendar, but I couldn't find what date to put it on. This is the 11th annual. And if you don't know what a pierogi is, it is a Polish ravioli would be the best way to describe it. It's fine. It's good. Pierogies are good. They're fine. I mean, it's a Polish ravioli.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Jesus, those would be some big ones.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Some Shaxx shoebox? Whose shoebox do you have there? And inside there, Hugo said that Krakowski paid him, quote, for services he was providing for Mr. Krakowski. Weakley stated that the amount of money he testified to was only an estimate, and he was never able to physically count the money.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He said he agreed to help Zelensky, and they plotted to rob Krakowski, kill him, and dispose of the body to make it look like he'd fled to avoid prison. He's like, it's perfect. Him and the cash disappears. Everyone thinks he fled. Weakley said, quote, I thought it was a pretty good idea.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today. You've made a good decision because this is a crazy episode. Let me tell you something. It's wild stuff here. Congratulations. Well, you know what? Why not? They're here, so let's congratulate them for being smart.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. He said when he arrived at Krakowski's home... The girlfriend was there, too. They didn't expect that, apparently. He said that wasn't part of the plan, but he and Selensky agreed that she was just going to be a victim of the crime, too, now. How was that? Oh, boy. Yep. Weakly took her to an upstairs bedroom and bound her with flex ties.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Weakly said, quote, she asked me why we were doing this. She was scared out of her mind. He said he reassured her they were only interested in robbing Kerkowski and that she would be fine. That's nice.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yep. Weekly said he bound her with flex ties and duct tape, covered the eyes with duct tape of Krakowski, beat him with a rolling pin and choked him until he told the location of $60,000 in cash. Then Weekly had led the police to the property and north of Wilkes-Barre. And that was the day that, you know, that the bodies were found.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
How bad could it be? They put sausage and shit in it. It's good.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They also recalled Thursday that workmen, another witness recalled that workmen were setting up a tent for the party when a convoy of police showed up at the house and that the sister testified. He immediately looked at me and said, oh, my God, they're looking for bodies. He was very shocked. Now, one of the weekly things here is did he get a deal?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He claims on the stand he received no benefit for his testimony. That's the that's the claim. Now, yeah, he is testifying on direct examination that he received a federal sentence of life in prison and imprisonment for these murders that they're trying Hugo for and that he'd been promised absolutely nothing for his testimony. But apparently he was getting some benefits.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's what I mean. It's going to be decent. So they say it's the biggest and best food festival to start your summer. Over 80 vendors expected, which seems like too many pierogies for...
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He was moved out of solitary confinement when he began cooperating, and he was not charged with taking his one-time cellmate, Francis McBride, hostage during an escape attempt. He wasn't charged for that. So everyone's trying to escape here. This is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That was one of his stories. He has literally 15 different stories, so there's a lot of variation here. Yeah. He admitted on cross-examination to being a, quote, liar with a record of various criminal convictions that he added various details to his accounts to make them more believable as well. You know, lying. That's how liars do. Wow. So apparently that was that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The trial counsel could have, I guess, presented evidence that a search of Weakley's residence uncovered bomb-making equipment, disguises, a how-to murder manual.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, yeah. All these things were found in his shit. Also, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, there's some child pornography involved in this with him, too.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. He said Selensky then ratcheted a flex tie around Krakowski's neck as tight as it could possibly be, quote unquote. And that killed him. And then he said that Selensky went upstairs and killed Tammy Fassett. And he didn't know what happened up there, except that he must have killed her. He said Weekly said he kept about $40,000. Selensky got $20,000 and they buried the bodies.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So he gave the helper more than he got. Why wouldn't he just split it 30-30? Yeah. Hugo's little sister then testifies to what she said before, that she was never told she couldn't go on certain parts of the property. Nothing was off limits. She could ride the ATVs around and all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I don't know. They say they have live entertainment all weekend, but they're not listing what it is, so that could be anything. Pony rides. That's nice for the kids. A petting zoo. A pierogi parade. Got me. I don't know. Do we dress up like pierogis? Do we carry pots full of pierogies as we walk down the street and pelt people with them? Double yellow.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, another thing that could have came up here is Hugo keeps saying that Weekly was obsessed with Hugo's family and gave his 12-year-old sister gifts.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Which he thinks would undermine the credibility, obviously, if he was trying to pick up a 12-year-old, no one would believe him. Hugo's brother testifies, too, about some phone calls and that kind of thing. Now, there's witnesses not called that he's very upset about. Right.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They didn't call Trooper Gerald Satchney, who investigated the Samuel Gousset robbery, to testify to the following information he learned during the investigation. That witnesses saw an Oldsmobile or Buick pulling away from Gousset's house rather than a white Honda. Blood found at Gousset's house matched weakly, not Hugo. A hair on a glove in Weekly's car did not match Weekly, Hugo or Gusei.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Certain unspecified DNA did not match Weekly, Gusei or Hugo. Weekly sold jewelry from the Gusei robbery, along with coins presumably stolen in another robbery. There are two other suspects named in the robbery and that Weakley admitted to smoking a cigarette with Guse. Hugo contends that the trooper's testimony would have challenged Guse's credibility and Hugo's involvement in the murders.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Because they bring this guy that they robbed on the stand, too, to describe it. That's the guy said that he said they all smoke cigarettes afterwards. So verdicts come in here.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, the charges against Zelensky are two counts of criminal homicide, two counts of criminal conspiracy to commit criminal homicide, one count of criminal solicitation to commit criminal homicide, two counts of robbery, two counts of criminal conspiracy to commit robbery, one count of theft. Heavy. Heavy. The jury deliberates for over a two-day period for 11 hours. Really? Yes, they do.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And they find him guilty on all charges except conspiracy to commit robbery on Tammy Fassett and solicitation of murder on Krakowski. Somehow he's not guilty of those two. Okay. Not sure. Doesn't matter. Those are lesser charges than the ones we have. And they're still aggravators to the others because all the conspiracy charges except for those two are in there.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, that's awful. He went to these poor people's house. Yeah, he went to these people's house. They were like 75 years old.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And then just said, give me the money. Come and shoot you. Right. Now, Hugo's brother...
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
His brother Ronald here, Ronald Jr., the one that testified, apparently following family members of the victims and prosecutors to the elevator after the verdict is read, apparently an affidavit filed said that Ron pointed his hand in the shape of a gun at the prosecutor and detective and said, you, I'm going to get you. Ron. In a courthouse, he did this.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Do we toss pierogies out to the children as we ride by on a float? What are we doing here? And a pierogi cook-off as well. Who can cook the pierogies the fastest? Whose water boils the hardest?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He was immediately arrested, handcuffed, and taken away by court deputies. Yeah, you can't do that. He was charged with disorderly conduct and making terroristic threats. Right. And, yeah, he was released on his own recognizance, but you can't do that.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Now, during sentencing, Krakowski's mom, Geraldine, read from a prepared statement. She said, he knew he killed my son. And for a year, he was out at our door looking for money, trying to make us believe that Michael was still alive. He kept coming home. Michael needs help. He's over. Michael took off. And they didn't want to know, so they didn't know.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
She said, and that just hurts to think that we were played for such fools. I know I can be satisfied knowing you will spend eternity suffering in hell because you know there is going to be an eye for an eye. Hugo, you know you will be right where you belong in hell with Satan because you are the devil in every sense of the word. Wow, she went hard. So mitigating factors here. What?
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Well, he's got daughters, so they bring his kids up there. Four of his sisters spoke saying they loved him. They called him an intelligent and caring man who's protective of his family.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
A college student and Selinsky's daughter, Madeline, said that she sent that he sent her letters with, quote, big words to broaden my vocabulary, asking her to look the words up and use them in sentences to show she understood their meaning. He told her to avoid alcohol until she turned 21. Oh, that's good. So let's let him go.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Wow. His two younger sisters, both nursing students in their 20s, called him a father figure who briefly took care of them more than a dozen years ago while their dad, who is now deceased, was ill. They said, I wouldn't be who I am today without him.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Another sister, Ruth, said that Selensky sends artwork to her children, some of it painted with Kool-Aid and coffee, and then he tells them to scratch and sniff. It's... Smells like prison jizz. She said, oh, God, no matter what, I will always want my children to know of Uncle Hugo. Well, here we go. The judge definitely knows of Uncle Hugo. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
is it best tasting or fastest who knows biggest i don't know that's all the information we have on the pierogi festival which really sucks because i want so much more information about that i really want to know and then there is this is wild here it's called american soldier a tribute to toby keith bringing the spirit and music of toby keith to life capturing his essence and entertain capturing his essence you can just pour a bud light on someone's head you've captured his essence
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And he says, you, sir, Uncle Hugo, may fuck off consecutive life terms together, two of them back to back, plus a maximum of 120 years on top of that as well.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Ensuring that what the judge said that Selinsky will, quote, never again walk the streets of this Commonwealth or this community. Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I wonder if he's still hot. How hot are you now? Also, the escape charges, finally, from way back then, he pleads guilty to the escape charges because they finally used the evidence, the bed sheets, and was sentenced separately to a maximum of three years and five months in prison, which is time already served. So he got nothing for that. Doesn't matter. He's in jail for two lives plus 120 years.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, boy. Now, he does an interview. He kept saying from the time he got caught, from the time going into court, he kept saying, I'm not going to talk now. I'll talk when all this is over. I promise I'll give you interviews when all this is over. And he actually does. This is right after the sentencing. And he says, quote, as far as the verdict, it's hard to say I respect the verdict.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
OK, he says it's been a trying time for his family. He said, I'm in the hole. It's a miserable experience and it's harder for my family. He said that with the trial, there's many things he'd do differently. At the top of the list is his decision not to testify. Really should have done that. He said not testifying was a glaring mistake. I should have got on the stand.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Somebody on that jury was holding out. I believe I could have convinced the others had I gotten on the stand. Which if you got on the stand, then it's your word against Weekly's word.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So if you can present a better self than Weekly, you got a chance.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
No, you don't want to do cross with that shit. That's going to be ugly. That's why he didn't testify. In his opinion, he explained that the jury went the wrong way thanks to his former partner in crime, Paul Weakley. He said, I have a very unhealthy dislike for Paul Weakley. You know, the type that makes you allegedly hire someone to hire a hitman to kill him in jail. You know, that kind of...
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So Selinsky believes without Weekly's testimony, he would have been acquitted. I don't think so. I really don't. I really don't think so.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
You got bodies in your yard. You got his parents saying that he fucking, you know, was coming over extorting them for money, all this type of shit. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
That's what I mean. He said throughout both trials, even the one he was acquitted in, he said that he was misrepresented. He said, I'm portrayed as a vicious villain and that's wrong. I have people who love me. I'm not a monster. I'm fighting for my life and I'm going to continue to fight. So that's the definition. If people love you, you can't be a monster.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah, so that's nice. BTK, you're fine. Your family loved you. You're good. Ridiculous. At the end of the conversation, he reiterated his innocence when asked how the bodies of Tammy Fassett, Michael Krakowski, and at least three others ended up in his fucking yard. He said, quote, that's a question I'd like an answer to.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Oh, my God. The price tag for his defense in this trial was $517,351. And who paid that? That's not him. He didn't have any fucking money for that. The county or whatever, the state out of somebody. So he appeals, obviously, going to appeal. He appeals on several factors. I'll give them quickly here. One is ineffective assistance of counsel. We knew that was coming.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He was setting that up in his jailhouse interview right away. He says that the counsel was ineffective for not rebutting weekly's claim that he received no benefit for trial testimony. Said he did get out of solitary and he got out of trying to hold a guy hostage in an escape attempt for that. So the court says, though, that this claim fails as it lacks arguable merit.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Attorney Brown elicited testimony from weekly on cross-examination that his plea agreement provided that charges related to several robberies and possession of child pornography were dropped. They dropped his child porn charges. Really? He's in for life in federal prison. That's why. So, yeah. So this guy's a scumbag. I'm sorry, Hugo. Either way, you're hanging out with child porn scum. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I was trying to fuck your sister, allegedly. So, man, part of his federal plea agreement has also agreed not to prosecute him for the instant murders, which could have led to a potential death sentence. Also, that they should have challenged that neighbor, that old lady neighbor near Enfar cited more.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
There you go. Yeah. That's the essence. With captivating performance that brings his music and energy to life. Apparently, the guy playing it is a guy named Dwayne Terry.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He argued that her overreaching account was not challenged enough by trial counsel and that she should have been asked by various questions on cross-examination, including why she contradicted her deposition testimony that her children were of elementary school age by testifying at trial that they were in junior high and high school.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Well, Christ, by the time the trial came, they were fucking had careers and three kids, for Christ's sake.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Wow. They further note here, he does Hugo, that the trial counsel did not call into question this witness's improbable testimony that she was working at her desk in her home by the window and yet somehow was paying close enough attention to what was happening outside her window to see him.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He posits that trial counsel should have asked her why she continued to stare with locked eyes at him despite the fear this aroused in her. Because when people are scared, they look at things. That's how they do it. You can tell a lot of times when you see an interrogation and you see somebody with their eyes locked on the interrogator, that's like a predator-prey thing.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
You're keeping them in your sight because you're scared of them. So that's that's actually a thing. But they said that she should have done that. Also, why she did not tell police about this memorable episode, notwithstanding the fact that she kept a journal at the request of Krakowski's mother of the comings and goings from the house beginning on May 3rd, 2002.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They said lawyers should have also attacked the Krakowski's mom more as well. Should have went after you go after the victim's mother. That's how you win the murder case. You go after the dead guy's elderly mother. That'll get the jury on your side.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They said, though, as was pointed out in a hearing, Geraldine Krakowski was in her 80s at the time of the trial of diminutive stature, and she had recently lost her husband. So they said probably the attorney said it was their strategy that it wouldn't benefit the defense to disparage an aging widow who's also the mother of a murder victim.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
By trying to accuse her of illegal acts because that's what he wanted.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. They said the strategy, his attorney said the strategy was to try to get her on and off the stand as quickly as possible because she's nothing but sympathy. So get her the fuck out of there. The more you try to attack her, the jury's going to start throwing things at you.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. They said the attorney further explained that the victim's father was much more involved with the illegal acts than his mother and therefore would have raised the issues with the father if he had been alive. But he wasn't. So he said it would be very difficult to get to the bottom of these issues through Mrs. Krakowski. And she could just go, I don't know what you mean, sonny boy.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Well, he played with Toby for a number of years. I think he was in his band. Who gives a shit? Yeah. I don't care. This is the best part. This is the most authentic and nationally recognized tribute to Toby Keith in the U.S. Oh. Oh, my God. Of all the thousands of tributes to Toby Keith that we put on on a yearly basis, this is the best one, apparently. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And then the jury thinks you're a monster. Also, that the lawyer should have called Hugo's uncle in. They said the first individual as to which the appellant argues trial counsel is ineffective for failing to call as a witness is Robert Higdon, his uncle. They say that Higdon would have testified that he had worked for him in the past.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Higdon had previously lent him money, Hugo money, and that Hugo could have asked Higdon for money in May of 2002 if he needed and he would have given it to him. With respect to Hignan, the attorney agrees with the trial at the council that the first three factors of the five-part test for ineffectiveness claims related to a figure to call a witness were satisfied, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
He did plenty. Some things aren't ineffective assistance of counsel. They're just strategy decisions. That's all there is to it. And also the prosecution's timeline is off. Remember the three thirty five o'clock. This one's at seven o'clock. All that bullshit here. So there's that. By the way, they've. So anyway, they tell him, fuck off, keep going. Appeal denied, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I mean, he's not going to get off on appeal. No one. Yeah, he's got a plus two life sentences. Two lives. Yeah. Consecutive. No one has ever figured out who the fifth body was.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
We have no idea who the fifth body was. And we have no idea where the bone fragments are for up to seven more people. We have no idea who they are.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yeah. Nobody knows.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Could be anybody.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They could be. Well, no, they're burned. And it is burned. So probably not. Unless he dug up Thomas Stonewall Jackson and fucking burned him. I don't think that... So next up here. Now, he's in prison. You think the story's over, but it's really not here. I am going to read an article here. This is about a woman named Felicia Thomas. This is from True Crime News dot com.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
OK, I got to give them credit for this because this is this is legwork that they were doing. So I got to give them credit. So here we go. There's a woman here named Pauline who says about Felicia Thomas, who is a young lady who has disappeared, said, quote, I think she was killed because she came and told us what was going on.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The article I'll just read the article when it comes to unsolved murders. Sleepy towns like this are this one are notorious for wild rumor and innuendo. but you've never heard anything quite like what you'll hear from locals here in Luzerne County in northeastern Pennsylvania. Everything is in here, anything anybody told us, Pauline said.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Pauline, with the help of family friend Judy Fisher, have compiled thick casebooks full of hundreds of tips, leads, and newspaper articles about Felicia's disappearance. And Pauline won't stop until she learns what happened to her daughter. Felicia was the eldest of seven children, just like fucking Hugo. Look at that. And grew up helping mom care for the younger ones.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They say Felicia still might be around. Had one of her friends, Jennifer Barzalowski, another Polish person, had not gone missing three years before Hugo Selensky's backyard burial ground was discovered. Now, she disappeared while Hugo was in prison.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
But we'll talk about this. This is what I mean. A possible link to these other bodies and possible other shit. Felicia was looking for her. She was telling people she was looking for Jen. She literally went out like a fucking detective to find her friend. So they said Felicia became obsessed with finding her. She wouldn't let it go, Pauline, her mother said.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
And while playing amateur detective, she may have learned too much for her own good. Enter a guy with two comedians names, which is weird. Steve Allen Martin. Steve Allen is a very famous old comedian and Steve Martin is fucking Steve Martin. So Steve Martin, he goes by Steve Martin here. She quote, this is Pauline quote. She says, I think Steve Martin killed her and buried her in her basement.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Because, I mean, usually on, what is it, August 14th, Toby Keith Day that we all know of or whatever the fuck, I don't know. Yeah. There's a lot of them.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
In her own basement, I guess. I said, Felicia, that's so crazy. People don't just kill people and bury them in their yards and basements and get away with it. I guess in his basement. She might have misspoke. But, yeah, imagine that. Steve Martin killed my daughter. Oh, come on now. Steve Martin was the boyfriend of Jennifer's sister and is said to be a friend of neighbor Hugo Selensky.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Yes, this is all connected. This is crazy. This is so deep we couldn't even get into this because you guys got to all look into this on your own or we got to do a Patreon on Steve Martin or something here. But they said Trooper Kelly, who was involved in all of this shit, said he was definitely a person of interest in Jennifer's case.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Right from the start, he was the last person to be known to be with her on the day she went missing. Then up to 12 bodies were found on Zelensky's property. and authorities thought Jennifer and another missing girl, 18-year-old Cindy Song, might be among them.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They said it was a case that shocked this area, Trooper Kelly said, even though Selinsky would admit he killed wouldn't admit he killed Cindy Song. He she was not. I guess they're saying that he might have admitted he killed her at some point.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
The Cindy Song person after he was convicted, she was not counted among the victims because the bodies were burned so badly that the police couldn't say exactly how many there were. They said some of them were in a burn pit where the bodies were burned to almost a powder. Jesus, because he used coal in there, too.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
Some of them were in a burn pit where the bodies were burned to almost powder. Forensics experts were only able to identify two, and Jennifer was not among them. Pauline said she tried to tell me, tried to bring her girlfriend justice, and I didn't listen. Then the year after Selinsky's arrest, Felicia Thomas goes missing.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
They have other bands, too. From 245 to 330, they have the Sweet Biscuit Band that plays 90s and classic rock. Then you have Alexis Bradford, who is the 2022 Ser Talent Show winner. Oh, from Mainsburg, Pennsylvania. That's her credit. I think that's her prize for winning that as you get to perform from 345 to 430 at the Toby Keith Tribute Show.
Small Town Murder
#585 - Serial Killer's Secret Graveyard - Kingston Township, Pennsylvania
So the friend, he was in prison both times that these people went missing here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What do you do with them all? That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're like back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
lectures uh the bruce mcdonald who was the the uh prosecutor there yeah he still does lectures i found this iacra.org has state of iowa versus kimmy lynn hardy presented by bruce mcdonald it's an hour and a half presentation of a lecture that he does that's pretty fucking interesting here um September 20 of 2023, they feature this case on an episode of Snapped.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
$44,770. $25,000 a year less than the average national average. That is not good. Household income average under $45,000 a year for everyone in the house. Average build your wealth, build your fortune. What was that person saying? Yeah, that's what I mean. It'd take you so long. It'd take you forever to build something up and, yeah, build a career or whatever the hell she was saying.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Of course they do, because it's a woman who killed someone, so they've got to find it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This is not Snapped. This is crazy from the start. This is slow-boiled, it should be called. Slow-boiled.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Consistency, eh? consummate liars as you should have been on so there you go everybody there's iowa and what a fuck is that one of the craziest in a thousand true crime stories yeah i don't think we've told five crazier ones than that right She's unbelievable. She is a fucking nut. So there you go. If you enjoy that story, tell the entire world about it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Get on whatever app you're listening on and tell the world. Give us five stars. It helps a lot. Give a rating review on there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Dude, she's a mess, and we don't know much more about her. That's the fucked up part. I wish I knew everything about her. I want to know. She's fucked up. I want like a Ken Burns documentary on her, like an eight-parter.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows also. Oh, shit. Live shows. 2025 are live except for one date, which will be, I think we release it on January 14th, what that date is. Two weeks, yeah. Two weeks from now. But February 7th, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, you're up first. We're in Oakland at the Carnegie Music Hall or whatever it is.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
In Oakland, not in Munhall like we were last time. Then the next night, we are in Columbus at the Davidson. So get your tickets there. Kick this year off right by selling it hard. We can't wait. So thank you so much for doing that. We'll see you there. Shut up and give me murder dot com.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You also definitely want to follow us on social media at small town murder on Instagram, small town pot on Facebook. You definitely want Patreon. Oh, boy. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. So P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash crime in sports. Anyway, that is where you get all the bonus material.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Anybody $5 a month or above, you're not only going to get a huge back catalog of hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before, but you're going to get new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it all. So that said, this week what you're going to get for crime in sports, we're going to go do personal ads again. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Go back and dip into the newspaper archives and see how people used to try to get people to fuck them before the Internet.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's a dark world out there. Then for small town murder, we are going to talk about a subject we've been asked about a million times because it's such small town murder, the way it happened and everything. The West Memphis Three. And we're going to talk about not the whole case because that would take us six weeks to talk about.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
We're going to talk about how the fuck did those kids even get it to the point where they were under suspicion for this? How did we even get there? It's crazy. It's a crazy journey. We'll talk all about that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right fucking now, Jimmy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever shoot us in the head and steal the baby from our arms. Hit me with them right now.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, Liz sends us Christmas presents. Thank you so much.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Still got a horse around here it hasn't been accounted for.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Cost of living where 100 is regular average. Here it's 72. And the low one is housing. Housing is a 25 out of 100.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Median home cost here. Median home cost. $81,800. That is less than a new pickup truck. Yeah. You understand a Dodge Ram costs more than that. Think about that.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Lurkey sounds like something like a... The way you'd call someone. I don't know. He's okay, but he's a little lurky. A little lurky. He creeps around the corner on you every once in a while.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Thank you, everybody, so much. for all that you do for us every goddamn day and every week and every everything. And for the last thousand episodes, thank you for what you do for us. And we will hope to be here for a thousand more. You want to follow us on social media individually. Very easy to do that.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Shut up and give me murder.com has dropped down menus and links to every goddamn thing you could want. That said, thank you so much for joining us, everybody. And until next week, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You could trade your truck for a house here. That's fucking nuts. And get changed. If you have a truck you're looking to trade in for an abode, we have for you the Keokuk, Iowa real estate report. Average two-bedroom rental here, $730, which is like half the net. It's $500 less than the national average. Here is a four-bedroom, one-bath, 2,055-square-foot house.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's probably one and a half, I'm sure. One hall. It's a fucking falling apart. The outside, the paint is 90% gone on the outside of the house, so it's rotting, obviously. Every time it rains, bad things are happening. It's built in 1900. Okay. Some of the floorboards look like you're going to fall through them. It's an abandoned house that looks like kids would go in and fuck around in there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It needs a lot of work. Finger each other and shit. The listing says, here is your chance to make a home exactly what you want.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
No, no, not at all. This fixer-upper's ready for you. Investor deal and price to sell. That's true. Number one, you'd have to make it what you want because you're not living in it the way it is. And it is priced to sell $5,000 for this house. Five grand. Five grand for a house. Let's buy it. Not a trailer. Let's buy it. It's 2,500 to 2,000 square feet.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh. What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet. I can't wait. Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
In case we need to stop by there if we're driving through or something.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow, and here's a five-bedroom, two-bath, 2,684-square-foot house. It could be really fucking nice, this house. That's the thing. At one point, it was really goddamn nice. You can just tell, but it hasn't been fucked with in forever, since the 40s.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But there's nice woodwork and there's bones of this where you're like, hey, this was a really nice house at one point. Obviously, a 2,700 square foot house back in the day was like a mansion. Just reduced by $15,000. Oh. $60,000 for that house.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what I mean. Let's just get that. And then this house is cool, too. Three-bedroom, two-bath, 2,268 square feet. It's stone, which is like two-tone stone, which is weird, like the checkerboard almost. It's really fucking weird. It's a nice old house. The fireplaces are insane. Beautiful, carved. R. Plural. Many. Yes. Wow. Beautiful, like carved fucking intricate shit on there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. Wow, is all I have to say. Unbelievable. You couldn't get a shed in South Phoenix for fucking $239,900. That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That piece of shit, I remember I was talking about that. Just sold for like $300,000 or something. And it was a piece of shit in South Phoenix. Dump.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Whereas that house is really nice, that third house. It's not bad at all. I had to live there. It's not bad. Things to do, the Big Damn Street Festival. Big damn, like a damn. Oh, got it. Yeah, Big Damn Street Festival. They say Keokuk has a long tradition of providing fairs to its citizens. According to local records, the city hosted both state and county fairs before the Civil War in the 1840s.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They were already doing it. The first Lee County Fair was held there in 1841. And they've also hosted the Iowa State Fair way back as far as 1869. But they say, here it is. It's back. The Big Damn Street Festival. Bring a long chair. Bring a friend. Bring the kids.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24-hour designer service as well. With their 24-hour designer service, a professional designer is going to lay out the book for you for free in just a day. Make something that means something with Shutterfly.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
All are welcome to come down and enjoy the music, games, and food next weekend for memorable times along the scenic, muddy Mississippi.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Let's call it the big dam weekend. You're like, ah, that's a little offensive. They're like, no, we're by the dam, man. It's a dam. It's edgy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
What's offensive? What's offensive? What's offensive about our way of life?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I'll tell you what. So that's what's going on here. The musical lineup. Here we go. Thursday, big guitars and G-strings.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
yeah plays at five at the coveted 5 30 p.m slot which is when everyone's gonna be watching yeah oh yeah stump town will be there just a bunch of people with uh you know war wounds and limbs yeah just war injuries and things like that civil war survivors you know limping in uh they play from 8 till 11 that's a long set jesus christ three hours of that hours Friday night, you got six strings down.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
We'll be playing. All right. Lee Henry Road. Lee Henry Road. Okay. Saturday, the Spruce L's will be there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The Sprucells sound like a Motown group. The Supremes were better, so we didn't make it, really. But we were the next up on the list, the Sprucells, me and my sisters. Wyatt Ewing and the boys will be playing there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I was going to say, the name Wyatt, really. Oh, Lee. There's not a lot of rappers named Wyatt. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Every day you're going to have carnival rides, pedal go karts. That's it? No, there's more. There's more. Okay. Pumpkin decorating, bingo, all this type of shit. Thursday, Cowboys versus Giants football game on the big screen in the beer garden.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You're going to watch Amazon's Thursday night game here. That's part of what they advertise.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Like it's a dive bar. Then there's Oktoberfest on Saturday in the beer area. Include games and clogging dancers from the Ray-Anne School of Dance. German cuisine of brats, krauts, and potato salad. Or brats, kraut, and potato salad. So everybody will be good and farty for the live music shows. A beer tasting. All this type of shit is there. Food vendors. There'll be ribeyes in the beer garden.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Sweet Sally's will have smash burgers and ice cream. Sure. Oh, boy. I'll tell you what. The Bun Buster will have variety food.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
There's also an event called Rollin' on the River.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Which is called Iowa's Best Festival by a Damn Sight. That's what they call themselves.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, God, no. No, you're not rolling on shit. Proud Mary ain't going nowhere.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's not keeping on turning or burning or nothing. Rolling on the River has presented some of the finest blues music. Everyone from A to Z. Anson Funderburg to Buckwheat Zdejko.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Everyone. Don't know them. You know. You know everybody.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's like up in smoke. You know, everything from like El Chicano to like Santana. You know, everything. Yeah. You know, everything's in there. You'll be rocking and rolling on the riverfront. That's what it says. It promises us that we will rock and roll on the riverfront, but I'm not sure how much rock and roll we're going to be doing on that riverfront. Whatever.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Enjoy 40% off orders over $29 with promo code SMALLTOWN. See site for promotional details.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here. Here we go. Property crime almost double the national average.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Almost double. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime, is double the goddamn national average. What is going on? I don't know what's happening in this town, but they have got to fucking chill out, man, because this is a lot. So that said, let's talk about some murder. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I have to preface this by saying this is one of the most head-shaking stories I've ever fucking put together for this show. It is.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
goddamn weird and i'm glad it's episode 1000 of our whole thing because it needed to be something weird and this is fucking weird so let's get into the first one of a new year this first one of a new year yeah we're starting out a new year fresh on a thousand so let's talk about some people first let's talk about theresa lynn lund first of all all right theresa born in 1962 she is she's born in iowa city iowa
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Which I would assume is where the most Iowa you can get comes from.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Like Aqua. Yeah. Like that's how she was. Someone named her after cheap cologne.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. Velva is the oddest name I've ever heard of. I've literally never heard that name before.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Maybe it's a family name. Maybe it's short for something. I don't know. So she grows up, Teresa grows up with three brothers. So if you're the only girl with three brothers, there's two ways to go. You can either be like, those boys are gross and be like extra girly princesses, princessy, or you can fucking figure out how to swing a bat and go out and play with, be a tomboy with the boys.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Cause there's otherwise you're just going to be real bored in your house.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she has three brothers and chooses the tomboy route here where she's always outside playing and fishing and playing ball and shit like that. Love that. Yeah, cool stuff for her. She ends up getting married very young.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And this is 18. And this is 1980. This isn't 1950. So that's no reason to get married at 18. But she got married at 18. Apparently she was in love and got married. She's going to get divorced soon. You know, pretty soon. Relatively fast. Relatively fast. She's going to have a daughter from this relationship in 1981. Yeah. And then have another daughter in 1986 from a different relationship here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I believe that's a guy named Randy that she married as a daughter with him. Things don't go well with Randy, her second husband.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she gets a divorce from Randy as well. And then she meets a guy named Terry Bell. And Terry Bell is the one for her, she decides here. And she marries Terry Bell in 1990. So she got married first in 1980. And then in the last 10 years, she's been married twice. She has two kids. And now she's married again. So making a go of it here. And she's not even 30 yet. This is 28 years old.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's a lot of life to live. It's hard living. There's not a lot of people now who are 28 years old and twice divorced and getting married again and have two children. It doesn't happen that often nowadays.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, my parents were 24 and divorced. Yeah. It was the same shit. Twice, yeah. Not twice, but once. But shit, your dad was on his fourth wife by then, probably.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He's cruising. So they have a daughter named Tressa, born in 1991. And Tressa has very fond memories of the early 90s with her mom. She said that she was very much a hands-on mom. She would play with us, help us with things. She shared her love of music with us. She describes her mom as just being, you know, always there for the kids and very much present and very much...
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You know, she's not like sitting off on her own going, I don't know, I'll get with you later. You know, she's actually diving in, getting on the floor, doing shit with the kids, which is nice.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So, on July 16th, 1996, she has three girls now, by the way. Really? So far, yeah. She's had three girls. Now, her and Terry Bell have a son, finally. Okay. In 1996. This is her fourth kid, obviously, and first son. His name is Paul Eugene. That's what they name him. Paul Eugene. Yeah. Now, as this is going on, it's a hard time for them.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This week in Keokuk, Iowa, an insane plot is uncovered after a man smells something coming from his basement and his wife has quite the tale to tell. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's a happy time, but it's also very hard for Teresa because he works as a crane operator, Terry Bell, which is a good job. And there's a lot of travel involved, too, in different parts of the state to do different jobs and things like that. So his job transfers him to Gary, Indiana at this point.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they just had a baby and, you know, moving with a newborn and figuring all that out. That's a new city. That's all a lot.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Exactly. There's three other kids to deal with, too. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about one of our favorites, SimpliSafe. Oh, SimpliSafe.com. S-I-M-P-L-I-S-A-F-E.com. That's absolutely correct. And if you're anything like us, the most important thing for you is probably protecting your family from harm. Right.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I mean, nothing else matters if people are coming into your house and murdering your whole family and robbing your house. What's the difference? That's why us here at Small Town Murder, along with millions of other Americans, we trust SimpliSafe with our home security. It's great.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Both our studios, our homes, everything that we have is protected with SimpliSafe because it is the best security you're going to get. You can install it incredibly. Now back to the show. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our stylish friends at Quince. That's right. Let's go elevate your styles, people. Get it going.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Look good out there. And you can do it now without breaking your wallet, without breaking the bank. Because at Quince, you can get high-end, versatile pieces at prices we can all actually afford, which is very nice. You want to get good stuff that lasts and it's good. And they have quality stuff that's very affordable.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And you can do like we did, upgrading our stuff here while still being a very reasonable price. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. It's all quality stuff. You're going to love it. Trust us. It looks good. And I've got the leather jacket. It's a very high-quality item. Real nice, soft leather.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about Noom. Has Noom helped you? I believe it has. Oh, it's got an app. You can do tracking. It's terrific. It does. Noom builds personal plans that can meet individual needs. That's the thing. Takes into account any dietary restrictions, medical issues, other personal needs. That helps build a plan that works for you.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Come on. Be like us. Be fashionable. Get in there with Quince. Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com slash smalltownmurder for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash smalltownmurder to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
slash small town murder now back to the show so what happens is terry kind of moves ahead yeah he starts gary you come behind yeah kind of i'll set it up and they're just trying to figure out they're spinning plates basically and trying to figure out keep them all keep all the plates spinning so terry moves ahead of the family and uh so he spends large amounts of time away from the family
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But Teresa and the kids, they're going to join him soon. And Gary, that's how it works. And this is the thing, too. Back then, this is 1996 pre cell phones. So we're talking the only way for them to communicate. Well, one's in Keokuk and one's in Gary is long distance phone calls, which are still very expensive back then.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Ninety six is even before, like, the big rush. Remember the late 90s, early 2000s, all those like call this number. It's only 10 cents a minute. Yeah, 10-10, 220 and all that bullshit. The one that had 20 minutes for like $2. Right. That was great because my father would harass my grandmother with that because she was so cheap. She would call him.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And as 20 minutes would come, she'd start to panic. And so she'd hear, okay, she'd start going crazy, my cheap racist nan. And then my father would like at that point be like, oh, I forgot to tell you about and start –
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
start a long story just because he knew in the next 30 seconds she would panic she'll oh she'll hang up on you all right i have to go now bye click 1955 click done she had a goddamn timer next to her to not pay an extra dollar she was so cheap so um yeah so that was the time back then so that's 96 they when he's in gary they only talk like every other night on the phone
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And it's a short call. And OK, let me talk to the kid. OK, good. Good night. Goodbye. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. No texting, no emailing, no any of that shit. So at this point, you know, that's that's how they're doing it. So that's difficult.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, my God, yeah. In 1996, there was email, but not everybody was on the internet in 1996. No, no. Just like kids our age were on the internet, and they were like on AOL fucking- Trying to find a chat room. Dicking off with each other, exactly, in chat rooms and shit. ASL, that shit. Yeah, nobody was doing anything productive on the internet at that point. So everything is going well, though.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's July. Over the next month, like we said, he's going to Gary. He comes back, though, sometimes on the weekend. Every once in a while, she'll go there for the weekend with the kids. Sure. The next month and a half are just a hard time, but they're making it work. You know what I mean? August 28, 1996. OK, Terry is Teresa. I'm sorry, Teresa. She could be Terry, too.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, they could easily be Terry and Terry, which is very weird. It's amazing. So Teresa's mom doesn't know where she is. She can't find her one morning. Grandma. Grandma. This is Velva we're talking. Aqua. Aqua can't find her. And a friend of hers can't find her either. So a friend of hers talks to Velva, and they're talking it over. Have you seen Teresa? I don't know where Teresa is.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
If you have that many kids and a newborn, people know where you are every minute.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
We are very excited today. If you include, if you add up all the crime and sports is 441. And then today, 559th small town murder. What does that add up to? 1,000 true crime episodes that we've done here. We have somehow mashed true crime and comedy together a thousand times and then way more on Patreon. So we'll get to that. But yeah,
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You don't just decide to go do something for five hours because you have a newborn. So, you know, if you're going to do something that would require, you know, long times, you would probably get someone to sit or be a sitter for your kids. So it's a weird thing. She's last seen that morning on August 28th, dropping her kids off at school at 730.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So that's when she's seen and then nobody can find her. She's not at home. Everybody expects her to be home after that because that's what her routine is and she's not home. So Velva goes out and looks for her. It's a small town, so you could actually go look for someone, you know? Yeah, yeah. She ends up finding her car in a grocery store parking lot.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And she's not in her car, but her car is there. So what she does, Velva has a spare key to the car. So she opens it up to see if anything's amiss, awry, whatever. She opens it up, and the first thing she finds, which is not a good sign, is Teresa's purse and checkbook are under the front seat. If you went into the store, you would need those. If you go anywhere, you'd need your purse.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And, yes, I know that you've had your own personalized program here that you've been working on.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So, you know, that's strange right away. She's not in the car, but her purse and checkbook is, is weird.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she then looks in the back seat and notices the car seat isn't in the car. She's got a newborn, and she always has the car seat in the car, obviously, for the newborn, and the car seat isn't in the car. So she's saying now she drove to a grocery store and left the newborn where? Where? Not with me. I'm the one who would watch the newborn. So where the fuck is the kid? And why would she?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This makes no sense that that would be in there, and none of it makes any sense. So she's very freaked out by this, and she calls 911.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They call 911, and she says, yeah, my daughter and her infant son, I don't know where they are, but, you know, found her car.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, absolutely. There's an infant and her mother missing. That's an infant and his mother missing. So she's last seen dropping the children off at school at 730, and Velva tells the story, went looking for her, found her car, opened it up, checkbook, pocketbook, car seat missing, blah, blah, blah. So the police, the first person they want to talk to is Terry, the husband.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Because Velva tells the police, you know, they say, what's her life like? Who is she? You know what I mean? And she says, well, she's married to this guy. They've been married for six years. They have two kids and she has two kids before that goes over the whole thing. And she tells police Terry hasn't been the best husband. No, their relationship is kind of strained at the moment.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So the police are like, OK, missing woman guy go and play different places for work. Strain relationship. Strain of a newborn on the marriage. Yeah, I think we're looking in the right spot here. They're thinking, you know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, he's going to lose his alibi as I was in Gary. Give me a break. No one's in Gary voluntarily. Nobody goes to Gary. No one's going there, chief. So the police try to reach Terry and they call him and can't get a hold of him. That's the other thing. They call him. They can't get a hold of him. They can't get a hold of him. They keep trying to call him, and no one can find him.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Landlabs don't go up to the crane, babe. And that's the other thing. There's no cell phone. So if he's not home, where the fuck is he? Who knows? He could be out to dinner, but you can't get a hold of him. So he apparently, they finally do get a hold of him, and they get him to drive back to Gary, or they get him to drive back to talk to them. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
wow thank you folks for hanging out with us for the last thousand episodes is what we're trying to say we really appreciate it thousand more coming your way don't you worry about that we got tons more here uh definitely before we get started head over to shut up and give me murder.com please do tickets to live shows are for sale for 2025 there's only one show that's yet to be announced and that'll be coming soon the show's not till september so don't worry about it so but what's next
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So he says he last saw Teresa two days before she went missing. She went missing on a Tuesday.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He saw her on Sunday. It was the last time. He said that Teresa had been in Gary with the kids. She came to Gary. I guess he picked her up, brought her to Gary, and then they went back to Iowa. He drove them back to Iowa Sunday, and then he drove back to Gary on Sunday.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's a lot of fucking driving. God. If it's three hours to Des Moines. Yeah. But I guess that would be up. That would be on the west side, right? It will be north of there. Even so, it's probably hours of driving. It's hours. It's a couple hours at least. It's a few hours. So, yeah, they went back to Iowa. Then he drove back to Gary.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he said, that's the last time I saw her was on Sunday when I drove back to Gary.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they said, well, when did you – have you spoken to her? And he said, I didn't speak to her that morning that she went missing. Okay. Again, there's no morning text or anything like that. Every other night there was a phone call, and otherwise you just assumed the person was fine.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You're not going to wake a house up to say good morning. Start waking fucking babies up at 4 a.m. after she's probably been up half the night feeding this goddamn kid.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, yeah, that's an early day for those motherfuckers. That's a crazy one. So August 29th, they really start a missing person investigation now because this is fucking crazy. They go into the house. Terry allows them access to the house. Nothing is missing from the home. No forced entry, no nothing amiss, no jewelry is flung about or anything like that. No quick packing.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
There's no clothes that were drug out of the- Hasty suitcase or anything? Yeah. You could tell somebody packed as much as they could and fit it in a suitcase and left everything else on the bed. None of that shit is there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, that's taking off while – that's what I mean. And she is a very involved mom with four kids. That's just not her style. It's just not, period. So there's nothing missing from the home. There's no anything like that. They check banking activity on her accounts. There's been no activity there, either no ATMs are hit up.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
No, no, it hasn't gotten any cash, hasn't done anything, hasn't written any checks. So and that's, you know, now it's much easier. Back then, you could still just kind of live on cash. So if someone was gone for a day then and there was no banking activity, that wasn't a big deal. Whereas now they'd be like, what did they fucking go to Mars? Where'd they go?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They have to take cash actually too. That's the fucked up part.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I know. They're actually legally not allowed to do that, which is funny. If you really pushed it, they have to take the cash. They have to do it. Yeah. Look on the bill. It says for all debts, public and private. That means that you have to take that.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
If you owe a debt and I try to give this to you, this counts. Whether you want it to or not, it counts.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So they could say 20 bucks. No, we don't take cash. You can put cash on the counter. They can't call the cops on you. You gave them cash. So it's one of those things. Go ahead, motherfucker. Call the cops. Yeah. They didn't give us our preferred method of payment. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Do you have $20, you fucking idiots? We're to the point in the world where we don't even know what to do with it. I wouldn't know what to do with it. There's no slot in a register. Okay, well, fucking A then. Never mind.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They can't do it. So August 29, 1996, like I said, nothing missing, nothing off the banking, nothing like that. So they can document her whereabouts until about 8.30 a.m. Uh-huh. That is about how far they can get to. They get from school to somewhere else she went, and then they don't know. After that, it kind of disappears. Then it's over.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now, Terry says, they talk to Terry, obviously, and they're saying, what's the story with your relationship? He says, oh, it's great. It's a dream marriage. Now, Velva says, no, it's a little bit strained. Right. And a couple of her friends say the same thing.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. And marriage hasn't been that great. And, you know, there's been fighting and there's been this and that. So now if Terry would have just said, I don't know, I mean, we have our normal problems, it would have been less suspicious than saying everything's great when other people are going. That's not what she says.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
pittsburgh february 7th get your asses in there pittsburgh right now it is at the carnegie hall in uh oakland not in munhall like we were the last couple times so it's an oakland different one real nice theater and then we're in columbus the next night on the 8th davidson which is another really nice place we're gonna freak out those old ladies who work as ushers again they're so nice and we just say horrible things i don't know
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. Or he could just say, like, I don't know, I fucking live in Gary, Indiana. So to me, it's great. I don't even really pay attention that much. He's so busy with his crane, he doesn't even realize his marriage is strained, I feel like.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
isn't enough feet in the air man it's great i know i'm all alone it's pretty peaceful up there anyway i don't know so they asked terry all right terry we want to rule you either in or out here we gotta i mean you're the husband you're the first person obviously that's a suspect so we have to talk to you will you take a polygraph test and just let's just clear this off and he said no problem
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Okay. So they sit him down, do the polygraph test. It's inconclusive.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
On the relevant questions, it's an inconclusive result. So they can't rule him out at this point. They're like, well, we don't like they didn't like his answers on the polygraph and they made the cops very, very suspicious of him. So they really go into working on going to Gary and figuring out if he has an alibi. And eventually they find that he has an airtight work alibi.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Well, it's after 7.30. If after 7.30, he's in the air, that's it. There's no way he could have done it. He's sitting in a fucking crane up in the air. There's no way he could have been hundreds of miles away murdering somebody or kidnapping or doing anything. Yeah. So they say Terry's out, even though they were very suspicious of him.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he looked like there was, you know, the cops are like, he's the fucking guy. He did. That's our fucking guy. Where'd he put his wife? Where's he keeping her?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But no, they stay rule them out based on the alibi. So people are starting to lose hope here after a few days. This is insane that she doesn't show up. So, yeah, police say after a little bit of time goes by here, you know, a week or two, cops start saying they're losing hope here that they're ever going to find them alive.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They're with their fathers at this point. One is with Terry and two are with the other fathers. They go with their fathers now at this point. So I guess that, yeah, the captain had visited Teresa's mother and told her that this is crazy to go to a disappearing victim's parent.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
says that you should maybe start thinking about starting to let go. What? Like, start giving up hope, basically. Look, there's not a lot of positive outcomes that can come from this at this point. So you should just probably you might as well like put it to a memorial now. I'm sure she's dead somewhere.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I don't know something. I don't know. Maybe a Ouija board. I'm not positive, but do whatever you got to do. Figure it out.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Do something. Yeah. Something somber, possibly. I'm not sure. So, yeah, started talking about, and also he started talking about her, and so did the mother, started talking about Teresa in a past tense. Goddamn. Yeah, they have her killed off in two weeks. She's dead, gone, floated down the Mississippi. She could be in the Gulf of Mexico by now. We have no goddamn idea. Flowing.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So let's talk about another pregnant lady. Okay. Another baby lady here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Was pregnant at the same time as Teresa and knew Teresa based on their mutual pregnancy. Oh. Pregnant women make pregnant friends. It's weird. They do. They don't want to do that shit alone. They like having someone else to go, do you have to pee? So do I. Oh, my God. He doesn't understand shit.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they're really cool about it. So that's excellent. Shut up and give me murder.com. Get the rest of the year as well. We're all over the place. Irvine, San Diego, Portland, Seattle. You name it. We're there. St. Louis, Chicago. St. Louis, Chicago, D.C., Philly. You know it. We're going to be there. We can't wait. We are jacked.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I got a foot on my bladder right now. I have to pee. He stubs his toe and says he understands this motherfucker. This is Kimmy, K-I-M-M-I. That is her legal name, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Kimmy Lynn another Lynn middle name Kimmy Lynn Hardy her name is okay she is born in 1960 so around the same age sure yeah they're pregnant at the same time she's got kids and all that kind of thing now a little bit about Kimmy Aside from her husband, who we'll talk about, kind of a new marriage, she really doesn't know too many people in Keokuk. Not really. Doesn't have a lot of friends.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Not a fucking thing. They don't know anything about this broad.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Never mind invited to it. They didn't even tell you what happened afterwards. I didn't even say just got back from that. Nothing. He showed up. He just showed up and we're like, here's my pregnant wife. Nice to see everybody. And they were like, who?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I mean, obviously I'd have to. So this is Kim. Robert is Kimmy's fifth husband, by the way. Five. Oh, wee. She's 36.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She is competing with your father for most marriages in a lifetime.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I was going to say, she's honestly got the lead out of the fucking gate here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Five by 36. She's going to have nine by 65. No problem. She's got that covered. Oh, wee. Wow. So they got married recently, her and Bob. They moved into a brown one story house at 212 North 6th Street, which still exists. And I found it. It was built in 1981. It's not very old house. Three bedroom, two bath, 1300 square feet. So a little family house. It's fine.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's sold in 2023 for one hundred and fifteen thousand dollars. Yeah. Not real expensive around here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. So apparently, yeah, Kimmy was pregnant and telling all the neighbors about it. Can't wait to have this baby with my new husband and maternity clothes and what should I name the baby and all that stuff and trying to make pregnant friends. Is this her first kid? No, no. Are you kidding me? Five husbands, no kids?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Also, you certainly want to listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which is 441 episodes of our thousand. And then also Your Stupid Opinions, which is only 69 episodes. But God damn it, is it funny. It's funny enough for hundreds. So get in there and check that out. You also want Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all your bonus material. You want more?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
If you've been married five times, you've had kids. Why would you get divorced four times if there's no kids involved? There's not that much stress involved otherwise.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You figure you just stick with one because they're too lazy to do paperwork to get a divorce if there was no kids. So Kimmy already had three children when she married Robert. She had two sons, ages 15 and 12, who were living with their father and had an 18-year-old daughter as well. So three kids, 18, 15, 12. Hmm. And so she started having them young at 18. She started having them.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She's got none of them in the house. No, no, none of them in the house. And then she's pregnant now in 2000 or 1996 again. So apparently her and Kimmy were described, or Kimmy and Teresa were described as acquaintances by people. Sure. Apparently that Velva said that Kimmy had been friends with her daughter for the past few months, like over their both pregnancies here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She gave her daughter, she gave Teresa baby clothes and, you know, I have old clothes you might want, that sort of thing, which is what people do. And, you know, was trying to be friends with her, suggested they should do things together. We can go to the you know, thing over here. We'll get lunch. We can, I don't know, fucking pregnancy yoga. I don't know what the hell people are doing.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. Yeah. So that's how that's, so she, they knew each other while they were pregnant. Right now, apparently, um, she's about a month and a half. Kimmy's about a month and a half behind Teresa in the pregnancy. They didn't get pregnant at the exact same time.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So on August 28th, 1996 here, uh, Bob Hardy, her husband is at work, uh, He's an industrial laborer. When his foreman told him, hey, your wife just called. Kimmy just called and said, tell Bob the baby was born and he should come home. I would say, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Meet me somewhere. She said, I know you're busy. Yeah. I know it's a long day. So I had the baby and, you know, you should come home now. I didn't want to interrupt you.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And didn't even say, I need to talk to him. Told the foreman, hey, let him know the baby's born. He should come home. That's wild. Let him know he's a father. That is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he's 36 years old as well, Bob. And he described himself as just the happiest man in the world that day.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He couldn't get to the car to go home fast enough to see his new baby. And they're not at the hospital, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She did this at home. They had hired a midwife a while back. So he assumes that the midwife delivered the baby. And he said he got home and she said, yeah, he walked in the door. She was rocking the baby in the living room. And she said, yeah, I gave birth in the bathtub today. spit this kid out. So, you know, here it is.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Pretty good at this. That's a rugged bitch right there. Boy, I'll tell you something. That is wow. Is there any other way to put that? Ladies, if your friend said, yeah, you know. Wide birth canal. If you called your friend, you're like, what you up to today? You texted her and she's like, I just spit a kid out in the bathtub today. You'd be like, you're a rugged bitch. Damn. You kidding me?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he was like, okay, that sounds good. Like, yeah, why not? That's what people do. All right. Yeah. He said he spent the rest of the day in bed with his wife and the baby, his new son here, his wife, his new son. They named the baby dusty Eugene. Let me give him two terrible names. Not just one, two awful names.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. And also his, his name, his name is, no, she's been married five times and it's not dusty. Yeah. One thing it's not is Dusty. There's no cobwebs on that bad boy at all. Dusty Hardy sounds like a sex move. I gave her a Dusty Hardy. Let me tell you something. Yeah. I don't know what exactly it entails, but it's gross. The old Dusty Eugene I gave her. You know how that works.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
anybody five dollars a month or above you're going to get hundreds and hundreds of back episodes immediately upon subscription of bonus stuff you've never heard and then you're going to get new episodes every other week one crime and sports one small town murder and you get it all everybody so this week what you're going to get for crime and sports and this doesn't really have anything to do with sports but it's just fun personal ads from the newspapers again yeah find out how people met people before the internet it'll it's
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The old Dusty Eugene. Unbelievable. So that's who they have, a new baby. They're the happiest couple in the world. So this is the same day that Teresa disappears. Yeah. So bad day for Teresa's family. Good day for Kimmy's family. Best day ever for them, yeah. They're having the baby.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So a couple weeks later here, mid-September, early to mid-ish September, Kimmy throws a baby shower for herself, which I thought you threw a baby shower beforehand. Yeah. Apparently in Iowa you wait until the baby's there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's the other thing, too. Yeah, so she's having it there. Good point. She's having a baby shower here, and that's nice, I guess. One of the baby shower participants here, one of her friends, okay, Said, okay, she was there. Go to the baby shower. She hears I delivered this baby in the bathtub on August 28th. So Kimberly Steele is one of her friends that's at the baby shower.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And she had heard news accounts that this Teresa, because it's big news that this Teresa London, her baby's missing. This is a fucking small town. This doesn't happen all the time. Despite the insane crime rate. Right. Still, I don't think there's many like newborn baby and their moms being disappearing out of nowhere. Right. Probably not part of it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So Kimberly from was aware that Teresa was missing. And she said to her friend, quote, this is to Kimmy, quote, I told her to get a footprint of the baby. And to prove to everybody that it was hers just so they didn't think because she didn't have it in the hospital. She had it at home. So you make sure you know that you have like proof this is your baby.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And the friend said she just stared at me for a while like she was stunned. Then she says they're insane. They're not going to touch my baby like. I don't care what people say. I think I stole a baby. That's crazy. Are you fucking nuts? Right. Then there's another lady at the party named Teresa Maness. Everybody's named Teresa or Lynn in the story.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Or Kim. Or Kim. She noticed a little bit of something peculiar about the old dusty Eugene here. Yeah. She said she was really concentrating on this boy's dick apparently. And she noticed that the boy's circumcision was nearly healed already. Oh, he's already been circumcised? Already been circumcised and healed up. How about that? Also that his umbilical cord had already fallen off.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they say that a circumcision takes about 7 to 10 days to heal, and then an umbilical cord takes 7 to 20 days to fall off. So it's in the realm of possibility.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what I mean. This is two weeks after the baby's born, so it could very easily be like... Maybe the kid's just a head. He's a quick healer. He's a fast healer. Yeah. He's got the constitution of a bull. He's got good clotting time. Don't worry about it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Strong. So it's interesting here. So Steele also says that she used to live with the Kimmy used to live with Steele's two brothers, Rod and Jeff, separately for a time, although she didn't know which years. She said that she she said that at the time, Kimmy had a one year relationship with her brother, Jeff, and had faked a pregnancy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
telling him that she had delivered a stillborn at the hospital. She came home and was like, I had the baby. It was a stillborn. Don't worry about it. What do you want for dinner?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. It's weird. So after Jeff and Kimmy split up, Rod and Kimmy lived together for about a month.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And at that point, this woman said that Hardy again said she was pregnant now with the other brother's kid.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I've been knocked up by both brothers. Okay. And she said she got a little pooch around her stomach. And she said, though, that when Rod moved out, this woman said that Kimmy's stomach wasn't as big anymore. She said, I thought you were pregnant. Now you look thinner. And she said, what happened? And Kimmy told her she had an abortion. That's what happened. Got rid of it. We weren't working out.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what matters. That's mainly it. You can't just say, I'm going to cut that out for a month and then go back. Can't do it. That's not what it is. Bet you don't. So I'm glad it's helping you. That's great. And it really does. I like the psychology and biology-based approach here. Noom weight uses psychology.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Jesus. Real disturbing. And then sit back and wait. Sit back and wait for the replies to roll into the mail. You know how that goes. Or not. Then, for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about the West Memphis Three, but very specifically, how did they even get to the point... Not enough. The beginning. How did we get to the point of these three kids are the ones? Let's get them in the station.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. So the one lady who's talking about the umbilical cord and the circumcision scars, she calls the police. Really? And says, I don't know if it's not for nothing, but there's a lady that has a kid that looks way too fucking old to be two weeks old. This kid does not look two weeks old. Circumstances healed, umbilical cords off, and just looks like an older kid.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Newborns are all just little skin weird. I don't even want to touch it. They're weird. After two months, they start to look like people after that. You know what I mean? They got color, for Christ's sake. They got color. Their face isn't all weird and smashed up like a puppy. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a very cool place, Thrive Market. Yes, we are both looking to get into the healthy swing this year. The problem is I don't know what's in everything, and I don't know if even I'm qualified to even read the labels to know if that's good or that's bad.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
There's chemicals and things, and there's things floating around. I don't know what I'm doing out there. One of my favorite features, I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. Yeah, it's simple. You scan any item and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
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Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
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Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you all sorts of good stuff about Chime. That's what I'm talking about. There's so many extra fees you have to pay in life. Everything. You go to the airline, there's an extra ticket on that. There's extra fees.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
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Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I mean, you can't beat if things are a little tight, especially around the holidays or after the holidays. You need that money a couple days early. You go grocery shopping. You got a car payment due. There's so many things that don't.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
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Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs. And now back to the show. This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January, it's a whole new slate. Clean. You bet. It is blank pages all the way around. Absolutely. And maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's wild stuff. We'll talk all about that. That is patreon.com slash crime in sports. That said, disclaimer time. It's a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. The show, the story is...
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
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Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
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Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash SmallTownMurder.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They get to be normal. So this kid just looks fucking too old, man. Yeah. Just check it out. Check it out. So September 17th, 1996, the cops knock on the door. Imagine this. Kimmy's house. Yeah. And they go, hey, just, you know, there's a missing woman and, you know, all of this stuff and everything like that. Can we see your baby? Can we maybe check your baby out?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And she was like, oh, yeah, this is my baby. Absolutely. And I love. Love my baby. Everything's fine. Yeah. She said she had her, you know, she's this is my fucking baby. I don't know what you're talking about. So, yeah, she said at that point they said, OK, but. That baby is older than you're saying it is. And she said, no, no, no, no, no.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So then they said, well, we're going to run the footprints on this baby, and we're going to see what's going on here. And they run the footprints, and they find out it's the Lund baby.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And she said, Teresa Lund sold me the child and took off, skipped town. Okay. Sold her.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
absolutely real which makes it incredibly horrifying yes that's the thing nothing is made up for comedic effect or anything like that you don't have to and the stories are so crazy that the comedy is right there you'd be it'd be weird not to point it out that's the thing to me it's it's less weird to do it with some comedy and try to yeah you know ease the weirdness of the whole thing than to just act like that's normal and not make a joke about some of the crazy things people do
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They said, how much? Yeah. She said, three grand. Three grand.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I think that's probably too cheap. So she said, yeah, she just sold me the baby and took off. Three grand. You get this baby. I said it was mine because I didn't want to get her in trouble. I don't think you're allowed to sell your baby and leave.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So then Aqua Velva Green said, this poor woman said that she, I'm not making fun of her, but that name is wild. She said, my daughter wouldn't sell a baby and run away, leaving her three other children behind. At school. At school. She didn't just, she didn't sell all of them.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she said, my daughter's not like that. Her children are her life. And also, that would be just crazy for anyone, even if she hated her kids.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Who sells one, leaves the others at school, and leaves? That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, that's nuts. That's nuts, right? Can't do that. Holy shit. Now, while this is going on, once the officers start saying they're going to take the baby from her, Bob Hardy starts trying to attack them with a piece of steel. He starts trying to hold them off with a rebar.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Don't you come near my wife and baby. Yeah. So they have to like fucking wrestle him to the ground with his rebar and he's going to be charged.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yep. He's going to be charged with brandishing a steel pipe at police officers. Can't do that. So they get them down to the police station. There's a lot to sort through here. Like, what the fuck is happening? So at this point. Yeah. They talked to a bunch of other people, and one of their friends said that Hardy had once admitted, Kimmy once said, I love my husband more than life itself.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This is at the police station. She says this. I never meant to get him involved in all of this. I just wanted to give him the son he always wanted. That's what she said. Yeah. Now, this woman that she says this to is a police department employee who was asked to sit with her in between interrogations and make sure she doesn't start banging her head on the walls or anything.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So apparently this woman said that Kimmy cried for hours and hours saying things like, no one will forgive me for what I've done. And I never meant to ruin so many lives.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
All sorts of shit. And if you hear that, no one will forgive me for what I've done. I never meant to ruin so many lives. You're like, what did you do?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Then she said, I have done something so wrong that I can never be forgiven for it, and I'm going to have to pay for it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. Then another the same I'm sorry, the same woman who was sitting with her at the police station said, holy shit. Oh, this is a different employee said she said the same thing. I know I did something wrong. I can never be forgiven for it. She's then afterwards after a pause, she said, I know it was wrong, but not that wrong.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You have a baby that's not yours, and where the fuck is the mom of that baby?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They said, okay, you paid three grand for this baby. Your husband's a laborer. You guys don't have a lot of money. Where'd you get three grand from? How's that? She said, selling fake drugs to people at local bars.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what I do. She said, I sell flour cocaine, she says. Flour and baking soda. She makes fake Coke and sells that to people. Crazy. And made $3,000 off of that, which is somehow the sanest thing she said she's done in this entire thing so far. I don't know how that works.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Man, and we are at the tip of the crazy iceberg. I'm talking... This is about to blow up into the craziest shit you've ever heard. All right.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But what we do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's family.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They're all punched in. Might as well go do your fucking job. It's like saying, I got to give that McDonald's employee so much credit. He took the fries out, put them in a cardboard thing and handed them to me.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And a missing person baby, yeah, to make sure that baby's not the one you're looking for, it's exactly their job, like 100%.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Well, if they got a tip saying this baby is suspicious, it's older than it should be, and she knew the victim, I think it's really, it would be a glaring error if they didn't go take a look at that baby. Like, fireable offense.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Because we're assholes. But... But we're not scumbags. See, it's real easy. That's how it works. So if you're not a scumbag either, you're going to enjoy this show. And if you think true crime and comedy should never go together, we might not be for you then. But if you want to hear a story told in maybe a different way, in a little more palatable way... I think we might be right there for you.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, she's probably just barren. She barren, that's all.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Inhospitable womb. That's what happened. So now they got Bob in there, too.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He is. He's fucked. He doesn't know what to do. He said he came home. You know, he said he came home. He hung out with them that day with the baby. He said the next night, the next day he came home and both sets of their parents were there. He went to work the next day, came home and her parents and his parents were both there. Everybody was there. So he was like, oh, OK, that's nice.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said, but as they're in the house and he's standing around, he said he noticed a foul odor. Oh, he's like, baby stink, don't they?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This newborn is funky, dude. It's you nasty kid. I'm telling you. So he said, at first I thought the sewer had backed up again because this has happened before.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The sewers backed up into the basement before and had a shit smell. Then while their guests were still there, his wife pulled him aside and said, I have to tell you something. And he said, well, what's that? She said, there's a corpse in our basement. That's what smells. What? You know that smell? There's a dead person downstairs causing that smell. He goes, get the fuck out of here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
What are you talking about? Who could be dead in our basement? We just had a baby. Aren't you busy? What's going on? So he said that he had to sit there for the rest of the time with both sets of parents going, oh, yeah, this is great, and bouncing the kid on the knee with that in his head. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Then after everybody left, he went downstairs and he said that he removed a large board that was covering a crawl space in the laundry room. And that's when he saw a red sweatsuit with like a leg in it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he said he became very ill at that point because he saw it was a dead woman in his crawl space dressed in a red sweatsuit.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said he became ill, but, quote, I grabbed the body by the ankles and pulled it out. Okay. Okay. He said the body left a trail of blood on the laundry room floor and that he saw what he assumed to be two gunshot wounds to the head of this woman that he found. Okay. So he, now you, it's been a wild week. Okay. Bob goes to work one day on a Tuesday. He goes to work, gets a call.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You got to go home. Your baby, your wife had the baby. You go home. Your wife says she had a baby in a bathtub and she's sitting there with it. That's a weird day right away. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
A month and a half old baby. But so exciting that you might overlook the weird parts of it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And the next day you come home, oh, Jesus, the in-laws are here, my parents are here, everybody's here, we got to do this. What is that smell? Now you're literally, yesterday morning you went to work, everything's normal. Now you've had, in the last day and a half, you've had fucking babies born, weird shit happening, and now you're dragging a corpse through your laundry room by its ankles.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So that said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody. Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to Iowa this week. Iowa, indeed. Keokuk, Iowa, to be specific. K-E-O-K-U-K. There is three Ks in there. And that's interesting. So it is in southeast Iowa.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, yeah. So rather than going, this is crazy, he goes, well, we got to get rid of this body, I guess, right? I mean, I got a wife and a baby here. I got to protect my family. So he wraps the body in plastic and an old comforter. Then he said he dragged it up the stairs and put it in the bed of his Ford pickup. Oh, my. Which is worth more than his house. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He then drove to Alexandria, Missouri and- Crossed state lines. Crossed state lines and dumped the body near a set of railroad tracks. Just dumped it near the tracks. He later then dumped the plastic and the comforter in one place. He took it out of there, dumped her body out.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Because that could be connected to him, I guess. He was being half smart. And dumped that somewhere else and then threw the gun into a pond. That's a he's done this before.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This guy has this is before constant true crime shows. I don't know where he would get how to do this, but he did it. Wow. He said he became sick the whole time. And after dumping the body, he said that they returned home and that his wife, Kimmy, cleaned the basement with a gallon of bleach.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He also said he never connected the missing woman and her baby with the body in the basement and his new son. Never connected all those.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, he's a fucking moron. Even his father says he's an idiot. It's fucking hilarious. He said, quote, I believed the baby was mine. I had no reason to believe otherwise. Except that it was ours. And when you came home, it's supposed to be three hours old, and the fucking baby's a month and a half old. It's saying mama already. What the fuck are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's trying to take its first step, and you're like, oh, wow, this just came out of your pussy? What are you, joking?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It opened her shirt, for Christ's sake. Yeah, it undid her bra, for fuck's sake. One-handed. He needed three fingers to pop that bra strap. You know this motherfucker's experienced. He's felt girls up before. And then you buried a body, man. Jesus. Holy shit. So that's what he said he did. The body, by the way, was Teresa, obviously. She didn't kill another lady and have Teresa's baby.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It would be even wilder. But the cops at this point, they don't know if this is the couple did this together, this was a plan, or if this guy is genuinely the biggest idiot they've ever met.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Who has no idea what to do and just really doesn't want to argue. Talk about not wanting to argue. Like I get trying to avoid an argument with the significant other. I totally understand that. But this is above and beyond.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I would say, but this shit's going to come up, though.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That shit's going to come up here. So, wow. Then they talk to him. Once they get him kind of figured out that this is what's going on, he ends up offering to lead them to the body. I'll take you to the body. I'll take you where I put the covering, and I'll take you where I threw the gun away, too. So he does. He takes them to the body.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's not even like a, it's literally a legal gun. It is their fucking gun. It was found on a, the body was found on a remote stretch of railroad tracks near Alexandria, Missouri. Yeah. It was nowhere. It was out in the middle of fucking nowhere.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Nope. Two gunshot wounds to the head for Teresa, just like it was. Now, Velva said, strange as it sounds, I'm at peace that she's been found. I can't imagine the horror of those parents whose children are missing for years and years. So she's actually relieved. Yeah. She's been told give up hope, so she stopped hoping at this point, and she's just happy to have a resolution to the thing.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Totally. And she said from the beginning she knew that she didn't run away. She knew this was that's why I think also she was resigned to this. She said her daughter would not leave that baby. She said, I know my daughter. She would do anything for those children. So, yeah, this must have been a wild interrogation of these two, by the way. Bob and fucking Kimmy in separate rooms.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He, like I said, the tracks, by the way, where the body is, is just south of the Iowa border. So he just crossed over to where it would be in another state, and maybe they wouldn't put two and two together, basically. A missing Iowa woman found. So they also... They find the bathroom window curtain from the Hardee's upstairs bathroom. That is part of what he wrapped her in.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They call this, by the way, a Florida-like peninsula of Iowa that comes down. So we're going to call it Panhandle of Iowa, I guess we'd call it there. It's about three hours to Des Moines. About an hour and a half to Agency, Iowa, which was our last Iowa episode. Onion of Lies, which is still one of my favorite titles that I've come up with. I like that one. This is in Lee County. Area code 319.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It matched in color and pattern the shower curtain determined to have been wrapped around the dead body of Lund. Not the curtain itself. They did the shower curtain, which was a set with a curtain and a shower curtain.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So they said the shower curtain that you... threw her out in matches your bathroom curtains so they're from your bathroom stupid um a the doctor who did the autopsy said every organ except parts of her liver and intestines were gone eaten away by decay animal or insects and when he turned her head to examine it it fell off of her body ah
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, she's been out there a while decomposing and it's in there in late August and September. It's hot. It's humid. Animals, insects, all that.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. Shot twice in the head. They're looking at which is wild shit here. Now, yeah, Teresa's mom said that, you know, fucking she said that it was horrible. She said her kids were her life. And in the end, it cost her her life. The kids. That's true. Yeah. So here's the questions. Number one. How did Teresa's car get to the county market grocery store parking lot?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Where it was found. That's number one. How did Kimmy Lund, how did Kimmy Hardy get Teresa to go to their home?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
To go to Kimmy's home. How did that happen? They don't understand. So the one detective said, we're pushing every lead to try to answer these two basic questions of because that's a big part of it here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yes, she took the car. She took the baby. Yeah. Needs a car seat.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She has no baby. So her youngest kid is 12. She needs a car seat.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That is horrifying, isn't it? So the cop in charge of the investigation said, we're pursuing every lead to try to answer these two basic questions because they're really important. They're trying to reconstruct the events of the day. They can document Teresa up until about 830. Where they think she's been killed.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now, neighbors of Kimmy and her husband say they have seen Teresa's car parked near Kimmy's home several times during the past few months. Okay. So they find out, okay, that's good to know. At least it's not abnormal for her to go over there. She could have lured her there. But they said they're not sure about that day. The police said they were acquaintances. That's all we know.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They're not sure about how much of a connection they have. Right. So the bail initially, first she was charged with kidnapping for having the baby. That was a $250,000 bail. When they find the body, bail is raised to $2 million. Oh. Now, this is the weird part. The baby's placed in foster care. And the fucking actual father has to apply for custody of this baby.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
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Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
How about give me my fucking baby back? What are you talking about? Foster, it's got a dad. We had a baby. You stole it. Give it back now. If it was a car, it wouldn't be put in fucking some sort of... You know, hawk some some some sort of weird fucking impound. Yeah, I don't get it. Some strange in between fucking nebulous afterworld. It's very strange. Give the baby back to who it belongs to.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Just like you would a car. Just doesn't make sense. So the that's how that goes. Now, the Associated Press apparently originally reported that Bob Hardy told told police his wife shot Teresa Lund. But apparently he never told authorities that he said, I found this dead woman who's been shot and I threw the gun away that belongs to my wife and she had her baby. But I never said my wife shot her.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Okay. Now, they have to talk to everybody to try to figure this out. Neighbors, did you see this person at this time? Neighbors disagree on whether she was pregnant or not. Kimmy now. Oh. Now, we know she wasn't pregnant, but they disagree on it. One neighbor, this is a guy named Rick Korshkin, he said if she wasn't pregnant, she did one heck of a job of faking it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said he lived across the street. He saw Kimmy Hardy nearly every day. And yeah, he said that that's how it went. Some of the neighbors, though, said she looked a little too thin, a little too thin to be pregnant. OK. One neighbor here, Constance Garcia, said she was always skinny.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And then lo and behold, she pulled up one day in a truck and pulled out a baby seat and brought it into the house through the back door. Skinny, skinny, skinny home with a baby. Yeah. She goes on to say she never looked pregnant to me. It seemed awful strange to me. Yeah. You nosy bitch. Mind your own business. Now, Tammy, who I believe is Rick's wife here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I assume because it's on the Mississippi. Oh, yeah, yeah. It makes sense. Power City. I don't know if that's just we want to make ourselves feel good about ourselves. And then, of course, the geode capital of the world. Yeah. Which probably isn't true. But, hey, you know what? Everybody needs something to put on their billboard, right?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This is Tammy Korshkin lived across the street from Hardy and says she was always skeptical about her claim of being pregnant. She said, I know what a pregnant woman looks like. I've had four children myself.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She said, I knew what she... This is right from the newspaper. Quote, I knew what she... I knew she was supposed to be pregnant. And this is a quote. She said, smoking a cigarette from her front steps across the street from the Hardy's house. Yeah. That's how she's described Tammy. I knew she was supposed to be pregnant. You can just see her. You see Tammy, don't you?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She said, but I saw her out in the yard, and this was in July, in shorts and a halter top, and she didn't look pregnant to me. How the hell does she get pregnant and don't get big? And don't get big. Most women show, even if they're built like toothpicks, most women show. At least I did on every single one of mine.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I got fat as shit. That's why I smoke three packs a day. I have to take that weight off. So, yeah, friends, mothers, friends who had kids themselves had touched her extended hard bare abdomen to feel the baby kick. And a lot of them said she appeared pregnant in every physical aspect. So we have people seeing her at the same time saying completely the opposite thing. Interesting.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
One time she's in a fucking belly shirt, you know, ready to perform at the strip club.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, with a baby kicking. So apparently, yeah, she must have lured Teresa to her home that day and shot her in the head twice. Now, the sad part is Bob really believed her. He believed her. He said she told me she delivered a baby in the bathtub. He told the cops that, quote, he's not educated and has never had kids before. So he thought that seemed okay. Not educated?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You don't know where babies come from, motherfucker? What are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she then told Robert she gave birth in the bathtub while she was alone. And he said, that's my baby. I thought it was my baby until I discovered a body in the cubbyhole in the laundry room. That kind of took it away from him from it. He said that he told authorities he found the body the same day that the parents were there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said that he was so he was scared that no one would believe that he had nothing to do with the murder. That's why he helped dispose of the body. Yeah. So what am I going to do? Go to the cops are going to be like, yeah, right. You didn't do this.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So, yeah, he said that, you know, he didn't want to tell anybody about it. He said he loved he at the time by then it was a day he already loved the child as if it were his own. He even he even helped choose the name Dusty Eugene. That's a dumb name that came from me. Obviously, I'm a fucking dummy. Who do you think came up with that stupid shit? Me.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Dusty's just such a cool name. Just cool, dude. So he said, I dumped the body near the line and I was going to raise my child as my own. And that's what I did for close to a month until you guys came and just raised the baby as my own. That's all. Yeah. Then they're talking. They're in jail for 10 days. And holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
10 days after he led police to a decomposed body on a remote stretch of railroad near the Iowa, Missouri border. This is from the Des Moines Register newspaper. Robert Hardy and his new wife, Kimmy, sit in separate cells at the Lee County Jail. They aren't allowed to visit or even call each other. But he's not blaming his wife and he's not angry.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Those bars couldn't be strong enough to hold me from fucking going into the women's side and strangling this lady. Are you kidding me?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, my God. I would fucking be paying women cigarettes to kick her in the fucking ass. Are you joking? I'd be so angry at where I am right now. Jesus Christ. He said he still loves the woman he married just four months ago. They've only been married for four months. What?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I think that's why kids are so into them is because they're like, there's a fucking sparkly shit in this rock. That's crazy. As an adult, you're just used to it. But as a kid, you're like, how does this happen? Are rocks in my yard like this?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Especially because they got married because she was pregnant. right allegedly so she told him she was pregnant they got married and then he she's like well i gotta produce a baby holy fucking shit he says he wants to make his marriage work even if it's from separate prison cells that's what he said he's right he is not educated he is a fucking wow he's a fuck two cells one heart that's very nice
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's very – isn't that – hey, you know what, everybody? If you can't make it work, I don't know what the fuck to tell you because – Bob's willing. Bob is willing to forgive and forget. It's 1996.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, my God. Second day in jail. He's like, can someone tattoo Kimmy on my neck? Two M's, two I's. So Robert's dad here, okay, Tom. Robert's dad. Oh, no, that's his attorney's name. I'm sorry. Robert's dad said, or no, this is his attorney. His attorney said basically he's sick, sick about everything that's happened. Of course he's disappointed in her.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He trusted her, but he still loves her and he still cares. His lawyer said that. He's a moron. Robert's father, Ralph, said it's a really hard thing. He's a really likable guy, not a not a big bad guy like he's being described. He waited for 36 years to find the right woman and he thought he had found her.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
he's willing to do anything for anything including dump bodies here um he then his father said i think he just got into something over his head my son's a big easygoing guy but not that bright he's a big dummy is what he just said my son to have a big dummy you watch a fucking race with him or something he's great but don't ask him to do your taxes let's just say that you will be in prison idiot
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. And also they said Robert's Robert never told his family that that he suspected anything was awry with his wife. And also they said they never suspected that Kimmy wasn't pregnant. Robert's family. They said she seemed pregnant to me. Robert's father said it never crossed our minds. I never once suspected anything was strange about her.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
If I break rocks open, is this what they all look like inside? I remember trying to bash them open with a hammer, trying to bash rocks open after going to the Museum of Natural History. So a little bit of history of this town. Steamboat traffic in the 1800s was increasing on the Mississippi River. So people started to settle here a little bit more.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
just dipping them in fucking butter pecan ice cream. It was weird. Strange.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So Robert's sister, Kim here, um, said that Kimmy, you know, Robert's wife persuaded Robert to marry her about three months ago by saying she was pregnant with his child. And the sister said, you'd have to know my brother to realize how trusting and naive he is. He's a fucking moron. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. He's so dumb. I think that the cops believe he's just dumb. That's how dumb he is. They go. He is just a fucking idiot. He didn't know anything about this. They actually believe him at some point here. So now. The lawyer here, Robert's lawyer, will not say how Robert will plead to any charges or how he's going to do this.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He did say there's been some negotiations already floated from the prosecutor's office toward Robert about getting him to testify against his wife here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, also the U.S. Attorney's Office has become involved because the couple might be facing federal kidnapping charges as well.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So anyway, Robert just sits alone in his cell. Yeah. And his sister said it has to be terrible for him there, realizing he was married to a woman he never really knew.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Who cares? He still wants to be with her. That's how dumb he is. Holy shit. So around town, obviously people are like, whoa, this is the craziest thing fucking ever.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they're like, the one question is that everyone keeps going and saying is, why... Would a woman who already had three children... It's not like she's 36 and she's never had a child and all she's ever wanted was a child. She has three kids. Why would she do this? Why? Well, Bob Hardy's attorney says, quote, I've asked to see her medical records.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
From what I gather, for some reason, Kimmy Hardy could not have any more children.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And we'll find out exactly why in a minute, too. It's going to make it even fucking crazier. Okay, check this out. Now... That's not the only weird shit about Kimmy. Here's some more weird factoids about Kimmy. And these aren't even the weirdest. I'm saving the best one here for last.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Apparently, she attempted to befriend another young pregnant Keokuk woman in identical ways to how she befriended Teresa.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she was trying to figure out whose baby she wanted to take, basically.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She's shopping. Who's going to have the cutest baby? Well, someone's got to have a boy, number one, because she wants to give the guy a son. So that's first of all. She's got to have a boy. Also, that in addition to the gun she used to kill Teresa, she also owned three other handguns, which was an interesting fact. She signed a note a few months earlier. I'm sorry.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Several years ago before this happened, Kimmy had signed a notarized contract with a teenage mother giving Hardy the custody of the woman's infant son. So she tried to she took a bit and they ended up making her give it back. Basically, you can't. It's not legal. So you can't do that. And there's adoption and there's all these different things.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And in 1827, John Jacob Astor, one of the famous Astor family here, established a post of his American fur company at the foot of the bluff. So five buildings were built to house workers and the business, and the area became known as Rat Row, which is what you want your area to be known as. Rat Row. I wonder if that was it rat fur they were dealing in.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now, the other thing is that they found out that Kimmy had undergone, she got her tubes tied in 1984. What is she doing? 1984, after her last child.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Her then-husband pressured her into it because they had no money, the family.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they were having more kids. So according to what he said, she later became obsessed with having the procedure reversed, but was informed by doctors that, especially back then, it wasn't really a procedure that works very well. It's much easier to restore the male side of that than the female side of that. Yeah. Anyway, her best friend, Kim Steele, who was at the party there at the baby shower.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. She tells them about different times that she faked pregnancies with both of my brothers.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This is what I mean. At the time that was going on, her tubes were already tied.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She's telling them she had an abortion and a stillborn.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Both ways. Steele said that she didn't doubt her friend. Her friend here. She said that over the course of the months she pretended to be pregnant, her abdomen grew large. Oh. She said that she saw Kimmy nearly every day and never doubted the pregnancy and felt Hardy's abdomen one day because the baby had supposedly kicked. So she was like, oh, let me feel. I can't feel it now.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She said she had a big stomach. That part wasn't fake. She's sure a fat fuck. That part's real. She definitely ate a bunch of Arby's, but outside of that, I don't know anything. So this lady Steele said she went with Kimmy to buy the gun used to kill Teresa. Oh, my God. She said Kimmy claimed she was going to take her son, her older son, not her baby, target shooting.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Steele said that several days after the gun purchase, she saw Hardy trying to file the serial numbers off the gun. Just for target practice. She's just using like her nail, little nail file. She's like, this thing does not work. They say to file it off, but man.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
A grinder or like a fucking hit it with a bar. Like a, you know. A chisel. A chisel. A chipper is all I could come up with. Chisel is the word I'm looking for.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
get a chisel and some vice grips and a big fucking mallet i don't know what else to say here god damn holy shit that imagined walking in on somebody trying to do that what you doing uh days later this deal cleaning my gun yeah well you're cleaning it all right days later the steel said that she called hardy and was told come on over i just had the baby All right.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She said Hardy Kimmy was sitting in jeans and a T-shirt holding the infant.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You're ready to stick your jeans on and get back into it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. Okay. She said that Kimmy had told her that she had given birth hours earlier in the bathtub.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She said that the baby didn't seem pink and wrinkled like newborns did. Yeah, right. With a colored head and shit. I guess she said, I don't know. I mean, whatever.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
you know what are you gonna i guess that's what it is yeah i guess that's how it came out oh i don't know so she had heard that's when she had heard of the disappearance of london her baby a few days later and started putting two and two together and said is this baby theresa luns some people think so so get his footprints checked and prove they're wrong like we said earlier and that's what she said they're insane no one's touching my baby okay
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But this lady never reported her to the police. Someone else at the party reported her to the police. Several members of Teresa's family testifies later that a woman meeting Kimmy's description had spent months befriending Teresa, stopping by in a gray pickup truck and, you know, giving her things and trying to hang out with her. Also hung around the hospital, we found out. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
A local woman who gave birth after Teresa and was in the same hospital wing as Teresa said that Kimmy offered her baby clothes, asked her to lunch, and invited her over after the woman's baby was born.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, why don't you come by? I'll give you lunch and baby clothes and shit. Come to my house.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This woman said that she, quote, ran into, but thought maybe it was more than ran into, Kimmy several other places around town, too. Why? She stalked her ass. She stalked several women with newborns, it seemed like.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Mutria or whatever the fuck it is. That's like a big rat. One of the earliest descriptions of Keokuk was by a guy named Caleb Atwater in 1829. So let me set the scene. 1829 Keokuk. Here's what we're dealing with.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The woman's name, Shiana Schwab, is her name. She said that when she failed to respond to Hardy's friendship advances, Hardy would drive past her home, giving her a dirty look. She said it was almost like she hated me for something.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
For not falling for her bullshit. These con people get mad when you don't fall for their bullshit. Some of them do. Some of them are like, well, move on to the next person. Some of them get very fucking angry when you reject them. Then we find out, obviously, her other fake pregnancies. Her ex-husband came forward telling police that Kimmy had faked at least three pregnancies during their marriage.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She had claimed one of those pregnancies ended up with a stillbirth at University Hospital and that she arranged a funeral attended by dozens of friends. It's not real. With like a shoebox with nothing in it? We'll talk about it. We'll talk about this here. I guess this is Wendell Smith, her old husband, went with his wife to an Iowa City hospital in 1993 after she told him she was pregnant.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said 45 minutes later a call came for Mr. Smith in the waiting room. The female caller, okay, on the phone, phone in the waiting room for you. Yeah, yeah. The female caller advised him that his wife had just delivered a baby boy, but the boy had died and then hung up on him.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's a dead. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wow. So they say that the papers don't say who made the phone call. They couldn't figure it out who made the phone call. I think we know. And they said, your guess is as good as ours. Who knows? Yeah. So after Wendell says, yeah, we buried a stillborn. October 19th, 1996. They dig up a baby's grave.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
the village is a small one containing twenty families perhaps the american fur company have a store here and there is a tavern many indians were fishing and their lights on the rapids in a dark night were darting about appearing and disappearing like so many fireflies
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what everybody wants to do when they leave the house in the morning. What would you like to do? I'm going to dig up the grave of a baby. That sounds perfect, I think, today. What's in the box? Wendell Smith consents to the opening of the grave at Keokuk's National Cemetery.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Where there's a headstone that reads, Zachary W. Smith, born October 15th, 1993, died October 15th, 1993, son of Wendell Smith. That's what the headstone reads.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I'm going to read from the Des Moines Register. Oh, my God. In Friday's frigid early morning wind. Oh, God, this is awesome.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Police here opened the grave of a baby that never existed, marking the most bizarre twist yet in a southern Iowa case of alleged murder and fake pregnancy. The digging was part of an effort to establish a pattern of fake pregnancies by Kimmy Hardy, who's charged with luring a woman to her home and killing her.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The grave dug up Friday supposedly contained the cremated remains of a boy that Hardy had claimed was stillborn in 1993. Investigators believe that she faked that pregnancy. Just before 8 a.m., authorities wrested the simple white tombstone from the ground. They dug first by shovel, then backhoe, then shovel again. More than two and a half hours later, someone else yelled up to stop the backhoe.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Hold up, we've got it. Standing in the neck deep hole, two cemetery workers lifted a tattered cardboard box. It was a cardboard coffin. Inside the box, police found only a dirty pink teddy bear. She buried a fucking teddy bear. Named Zachary. Tombstone erected. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She's supposed to be burying ashes. Buried a fucking teddy bear.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She named that month's period is what she named. That's what it is because she did not have a baby. She didn't get anything.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So, the police chief of Keokuk said, Yeah. Up to and including buying a goddamn headstone. A headstone, dude. Wow. It had it engraved and everything. It probably cried and went through the whole thing. Investigators said the exhumation strengthens their charges against Kimmy. I would say so. She buried an idea. Yeah. She buried a fucking made up. A lie. She buried a lie. That's what it was. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The constant roaring of the waters on the rapids, the occasional Indian yell, the lights of their fires on the shore and the boisterous mirth of people at the doggery, which is a dog race track. No, no. A doggery back then is like a shitty tavern. Like that's the oh, that's the scummy bar.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They said – the prosecutor said, is our case solid at this point? Absolutely, I would say.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It looks bad. Then he said, this case has more twists than Highway 1. So they said that this case cemented the whole thing of what she is basically. The stillbirth purportedly happened during a visit to university hospitals in Iowa City. The phone call is even crazier. He said that – She came out of the room, delivered to Stillborn. They drove home.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And on the drive back, she had told her, Wendell Smith, the husband, that the baby's organs were being donated and that the hospital would send the cremated remains to them for burial.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Baby organs. Newborn organs. Stop it. And they're going to, I guess, cremate the baby right there at the hospital.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And then just they're going to mail them to us. The size of an ashtray. The husband there, the ex-husband, Wendell, said she bawled and carried on about the lost baby the whole drive home. I didn't doubt for a minute that she was telling the truth. He said a box was mailed to them several days later and his wife said it contained the baby's ashes.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So along with friends and family, they buried the box at the National Cemetery in Keokuk. Wow. Then this idiot, this is how she looks for a very specific type of man. Because this guy says now he, quote, feels sorry for her because she's obviously sick. No, I want to know what the fuck happened to this woman. That's her fucking problem. He said that he was completely fooled by her at the time.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said her belly got big. It really did. Yeah. I thought she was pregnant. But apparently she couldn't have been pregnant because she had tubal ligation years before marrying him, which left her unable to have more children than the three she already had. That's unbelievable. Her ex said, I think she was just obsessed with having children. She's sick.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But one thing I will say is she was always an excellent mother to her other three children. They lived with us and they were her life. She got them into the best schools, made them dinners, helped them with their homework, everything. Well, that's great, but you can't steal people to do that.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They said it's really only after the tubal ligations, ligation surgery, that she started manufacturing pregnancies. Yeah, when she couldn't get pregnant anymore. Right. Started making them up. One guy said here, I do think there was some change in her psychologically. She wanted another child, but she couldn't be pregnant is what really tipped her over the edge.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's the dive. Where you find me. No, no, no. The doggery is the place where you find $2 handjobs. That's the doggery. Yeah. You like a dive bar, but not a real dive bar. You like a bar that's got- I've been to some- You like a bar that bought stools from a bar that went out of business so it looks old. That's what you like. You don't like any place that's actually dangerous, though.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She's deceiving, she's manipulating, and ultimately she murders somebody. Indeed. Indeed. Wow. That's crazy. So, yeah, I mean, she goddamn fucking lured a nice woman to her house with her baby, shot her in the fucking head and dragged her down basement steps, stuffed her in a cubby hole for a day and a half before telling her husband.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And she only told her husband because the smell was getting bad. It was she was going to get caught. That's crazy. The one guy goes on to say she maintained that the charade, the charade that she was pregnant for months. I think she had this idea in her head that would be the ultimate joy would be to produce a son for Bob. At some point, she begins looking for a baby. Then she finds this person.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
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Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But guilt-free with the Hero Bread. That's the thing. You like enjoying a nutritious breakfast wrap, avocado toast, grilled cheese, maybe with some soup on a cold, rainy day. Maybe a family burger night. Well, their products are delicious and flavorful. And they have ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and are high in fiber. They're pretty delicious. I really like the Hawaiian rolls. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They're so, they're like, they still feel like buttery and stuff.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, God, yeah. These are good for you. They're not bad at all. And the texture. This is the thing. I'm a nut with bread texture. I don't like different textures, but they have a really nice, good bread texture. It's delicious. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use the code smalltownmurder at checkout. That's the code smalltownmurder at h-e-r-o.co.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now, Kimmy's sitting in jail, and she tries to commit suicide in jail after a month or so.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She's all fucked up. After stockpiling her prescription medication that she receives twice a day, another inmate saw her take the medication, and she was rushed to a hospital and saved. Then she also starts faking illnesses in prison. As well. Yeah. They said they're pissed off, the jailers at the county jail.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Sheriff Dave Ireland says, in my opinion, she feigned some illness and we have to go through all the medical hoops to have the medical community say there's nothing wrong. She's a thespian and she's a very good thespian.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She's an actress. That's what it is. It's an art form. That's the ticket. Wow. So she said that they said also, well, is she going to plead insanity? Yeah. They said, I don't know. One lawyer says the downside of any insanity defense is the months of planning and premeditation that went into this. The coldness and calculation involved insanity has some real drawbacks. Sure does.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Because insanity, you have to go look at all the awful shit I did, isn't it? Don't you have to be crazy to do that? It's awful, right? Like, that's not good if they don't believe you're crazy. Now, they also she's also described somehow as stoic in jail. Faking illnesses and trying to kill yourself is not stoic. It's the opposite of stoic.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But the one jailer said, I guess I would be stoic, too, knowing that with a conviction on first-degree murder, it could be life in prison.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She's plotting. I think she's plotting. Yeah, she's trying to figure out how to say some bullshit that will make these people believe her. By the way, there is another absolutely crazy fucking twist coming up in this case.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She testifies, and it's crazy. Stop it. She talks. She's got a story, and it is wild. She still says she didn't kill Teresa. Really? Didn't kill her. Stole her baby and her corpse was in my basement, but I didn't kill her. I bought it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what I mean, yeah. This is death. This is actual dive bar. I don't want to sit in actually where people are miserable. It's a doggery. To me, a real, it's a squalid tavern is what the definition is. To me, a real dive bar is a place where people go to be sad, not to enjoy. You want to go to a joyous dive bar.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's the truth, man. She doesn't. Now, the prosecutor said that Kimmy Hardy certainly left a clear trail of evidence linking her to this crime. An excellent evidence trail, in fact. Absolutely. She's seen everywhere with her. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
In the back of the head. And she said that they also said that Kimmy started shopping for a .38 caliber handgun a month before this. A month before this. A .38. A .38. At one gun shop, she's quoted as asking the gun dealer, quote, is this gun capable of killing someone? And if so, at what range?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I was just going to say, which one of your guns are capable of killing people? They're guns, you fucking idiot.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I got a pellet gun that could probably do the trick if you really hit someone, right? What are you talking about? These are real guns.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The documents also quote Kimmy as telling a friend, I did something really bad that I could never be forgiven for. So bad that I had to get Bob involved.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And the county attorney said the idea of killing a mother to get the child is something that touches a universal nerve. It's every family's nightmare. So Robert here, his lawyer, expresses optimism about the case. Bob. Really? Yeah, Kimmy's husband.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He says, yeah, he said it's hit the tabloids around the world and the residents of Keokuk are bracing themselves for a possible media circus complete with court TV and hard copy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And this is 96. So this is right after O.J. So this is when court TV was like the biggest thing in the fucking world after O.J. And hard copy was still in existence, too.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He's looking forward. Velva here. Mom says crimes like this aren't supposed to happen in a place like this. Not in a place like this.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Small town murder. Yeah, that's why we do this show, Velv. So, yeah, she said that, you know, she's going over the events in her mind. They say Keokuk, people say, used to be a place where you left your front door unlocked and the car running while you ran into the grocery store for a gallon of milk.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Parking meters don't exist, and the triple feature movie theater has one of those old-fashioned marquee signs. When you went in to pay for your gas, you left the kids strapped in the car seat. Triple feature?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Triple feature, guy. All day you're going to be here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So they talk about Kimmy's other three children who were living with her at the time of the killing who are now on the prosecutor's witness list. Prosecution also has expert witnesses who will likely testify that Kimmy was not insane at all. Fine. Just a little, you know, loopy. Just a little cuckoo. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They said, the prosecutor said he's not convinced that her attorneys are going to go for the insanity defense.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, he said, I've received nothing from them at this time that indicates they're going to go ahead with that. And I would have expected that to happen by this point if they were going to use that angle. What's the defense's plan here? Well, defense attorney Carl McMurray says he doesn't want to divulge his game plan just yet. He said that would be like walking into a movie at the end of it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It just ruins everything. Yeah, if the movie made no sense and it wasn't actually a movie. You went in there and it was actually just a guy kicks you in the balls and puts a sack over your head. That's the equivalent, dude.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's a wild movie. He did say that Kimi Hardy was optimistic about her trial.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yes, exactly. Not just there's more sad people staring into their drinks.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he said that she has every reason to be. Okay. All righty. One of the biggest tasks facing McMurray is to convince the jury that the gun purchase and the testimony about all of her fake pregnancies don't equal premeditation, which is critical for first-degree murder. McMurray doesn't seem concerned. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said, quote, I've got a lot of money in my pocket, but if it's all pennies, that doesn't make me a rich man, now does it? So you could have a lot of evidence, but if it's all shitty evidence, it doesn't matter. That doesn't make you rich. If it's all this evidence, it's very good evidence is the problem.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's exactly, that's what I'm saying. And they said McMurray also seemed unfazed by expected testimony that Kimmy told a friend that she had done something bad, which could imply she was, you know,
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
sound enough mind to distinguish right from wrong he said i think i i think i said something like that when i was a five-year-old kid and had run away from home that doesn't make me guilty of murder that makes you a runaway makes you a five-year-old runaway so there was murder involved what are you talking about man so this guy's analogies are terrible really bad he's like i'll just put some folksy analogies out there and get the public on my side and they're like what the fuck are you talking about bob
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So change of venue is what they want. They really want defense attorney Carl McMurray filed a motion to move the case out of the county because of what he says was prejudicial news coverage. Just obvious covering the facts of the case. He said, but the judge said if eligible jurors can't be found after two jury panels, then he would consider moving the trial.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But for now, happening right here in Lee County, baby. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Exactly. You don't want that. You get stabbed in the parking lot. So the boisterous mirth of people at the doggery attracted my attention occasionally while we were lying there. Fish were caught here in abundance. So there's that. Keokuk was the longtime home of Orion Clemens, who was Mark Twain's brother. Sure.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
We'll get the diner getting some fucking turnover on those tables. So Kimmy's trial comes around, and in the more than six hours it took to select a jury, lawyers from both sides found out to the extent of which people in small towns keep track of each other's bullshit.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, because this is a small town. You have to find out, do you know this person and stuff like that. So you get to hear. Yeah. They said Lee County Attorney Bruce McDonald asked 32 prospective jurors and four alternates, has anyone here not read or heard anything about the case? Not one hand went up. Everyone has heard about the case.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Within the first hour of jury selection, nine people had been dismissed, six of whom said they could not keep an open mind about the highly publicized case. Next, they asked if anyone personally knew Kimmy, because it's a small town, that's possible. A hand in the middle row shot up. Quote, she's my sister-in-law. It's fucking Bob's brother, or Bob's sister.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Her brother, I'm sorry. Bob's brother is on the jury panel. Why would he be there? Yeah. You think he'd just go, my brother's the other, you know. Yeah. No, he's there, which is fucking amazing. Bob is charged with seven felonies, by the way, in a separate trial, including child stealing, not kidnapping, child stealing.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Several other people also said they knew Kimmy. Two women said they had gone to high school with her. One man said he socialized with her about eight years ago. One of the alternates had been Kimmy's neighbor for several years. This is out of 32 people. This many people know her. I mean, it's any little. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
All these people said they could be fair and unbiased and were allowed to stay in the jury pool.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. That's fucking crazy. They said not only it's such a small town that they said if you don't know her, these jurors know one of the witnesses.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They know somebody. They're going to be connected. It's impossible to have a trial. Move the fucking trial. Why are we insisting on having it here? The appeal process is going to ruin this. Right. Right. The lawyer asked, was he any good? And the guy said, not really. That's softball, that is.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
After the prosecution had questioned the jury, Hardy's attorney individually examined each potential juror in the judge's chambers. Once out of the packed courtroom, several of the people admitted they believed Kimmy had murdered Teresa and would not be able to think of her as innocent until proven guilty. In open court, they said they could.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And Mark Twain used to visit his brother's home and led him to write of the beauty of Keokuk and southeastern Iowa in the Life on the Mississippi story. At one time here, it was known as the Gate City because of its position at the lower rapids of the Mississippi. I guess Howard Hughes is from here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Once it got behind closed doors, they were like, okay, never mind. So they ended up choosing 12 jurors and two alternates were settled upon just before court shut down for the day. Opening arguments are tomorrow. So after dismissing 21 potentially biased jurors, including her brother-in-law, they're ready to rock and roll. It's a jury of seven women and five men. You want 12 men because...
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Who's suspicious of her? Every woman. Every woman. Even her best friend.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Fuck yeah. So by the way, not as much media as they expected. Hard copy and court TV do not send reporters as expected. Is that right? Only Extra covered the story.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now that's just all of social media is extra. Why would you watch extra? Yeah, yeah. I think you're right, though.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Well, yeah. I was going to say, is he on that or does he only do every hotel fucking when you turn the TV on? He does that, too. Go away. I don't want to look at you, Mario. I have to turn it on immediately, mute the TV.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Fuck. Jesus, man. Also, another person there is a freelance writer, Sylvia DeWitt, who plans to write a true crime book about the case, which I never found. I don't know if she was just using that as an excuse for a write-off or what.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I guess. I've always wanted to go to Keokuk. They said at least a dozen print radio and TV journalists are at the courthouse, though. It's a cool courthouse, by the way. It's a real historic Yeah. Built in 1889. Marble wainscoting it has. Wow. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The community promoter, like community promoters, like store owners and shit like that, they're called community promoters, are trying to put a good face on this. One person here, the director of the Keokuk Convention and Tourism Bureau, said, I've had a couple of tourism friends who called me and said it's hard to market a community when this is going on.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You don't want to go there for vacation when people will steal your baby. Yeah. She said the best that they can hope for is that the memory of the trial details will fade, but the town name is memorable. It's going to stick in people's minds. But they did say on the bright side, media people are helping fill the motels that are often vacant this time of year.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Because it's happening in January. Oh, yeah. Greg Andrews, the Chamber of Commerce director, also bemoans the publicity's impact. He says, most of us, we'd just as soon not be in the spotlight. It's too bad all this attention has to be for a negative event when we have so many good things going on. Have you heard about our damn festival? It's very nice.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
No, but it's so much fun. You'll love it. Well, he said the good things that he's like, we have a multimillion dollar industrial expansion with new jobs. We have all this stuff. We're going to have a celebration of we have annual Civil War reenactments in April. We also have a new motel and two new fast food franchises.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they're acting like murder is the only thing that happens in this fucking town.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Oh, my God. Their newly elected mayor, Gary Foluo, he's a historic preservationist who owns a bait shop.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And is also the mayor. Any other mad libs you want to throw in with what this guy does? He says, it's definitely not indicative of our community. When something happens like this, it's devastating to the morale. No one likes the stigma. I guess not. So they said, yeah, the 25 to 30 media members are there following the trial. I'm going to describe this courtroom from the newspaper here. Oh, boy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's the guy. Fingernails and giant planes. Wash your hands too much.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
From 25 to 30 people have been following the trial in the majestic second floor courtroom, which is decorated with marble wainscoting, two marble fireplaces, and elaborately carved golden oak and cherry oak woodwork.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Well, there was a new town, so they wanted to go, look at our good town. We've got to get people to move here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Well, people used to have pride. That's why. That's the thing. That's a great point, yeah. Look at every municipal building now. It looks like a fucking manufactured home. It's a piece of shit. It's the cheapest thing they could get because people have no fucking pride.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
People are like, I don't want to pay a dollar extra in taxes even if my town looks like a fucking prairie shithole rather than put a fucking nice courthouse up that represents your town well. What are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I don't want to invest in it, but I want people to come here. Well, no, you don't then. Even if it looks like the town's temporary. Yeah. Fucking ridiculous. Yeah. Even if we look like a shanty town, it's fine.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That man died a billionaire. Oh, he had so much money. Wow. His brain was mush. It didn't matter. Yeah. Right, right. Reviews of this town. Here's five stars. Keokuk grows on you.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
God damn it. Yeah. Look at the buildings that companies used to build with fucking gargoyles on them and things carved in it. Now what is it? It's fucking garbage. It's all square. This is as cheap as we could get it. That's what it is now. Fucking ridiculous. So anyway, they said MacReady, who is this? Oh, Diana MacReady. There we go.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Based on 3.5-year study of actively engaged Noom users with minimum starting BMI of 25, individual results may vary. Visit our website for more information. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Diana MacReady, whose family runs the Grand Ann Bed and Breakfast in an 1897 Victoria home, said she moved to Keokuk from San Francisco with her family four and a half years ago for a slower pace of life. She said this bizarre crime stuff was normal in California, but not in Iowa. Normal. Normal. She said, that's why it's a shocking thing to happen in a town this size.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
People just want it to go away. So, will she say she's insane? Let's find out.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Kimmy was examined by psychiatric experts for both the defense and the state. Her trial attorney contacted the state public defender's office for suggestions for psychiatrists who might make an evaluation favorable to her. Defense counsel discussed the case with three or four people whose names were provided before choosing Dr. Lauren Olson.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Olson evaluated Hardy for the defense, told the trial attorney that while Hardy was, quote, this is the understatement of the millennium, while Hardy was, quote, a little bit different. Yeah. Okay, that is, wow, you are selling some short shit there. She did not meet the standards for insanity or diminished responsibility. She could have said, she's crazy, but not insane.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
No, that's I don't like her. She's obviously crazy. So the trial comes around. This is not over. This trial is fucking nuts. OK. Opening statement. Lee County attorney Mike Short told the jury that Kimmy had masterminded an intricately woven murder plot that ended with Teresa's death. He said she told police, if you want something bad enough, you'll do anything to get it. Quote, unquote.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
yeah like vd yeah i wasn't always fond of this town but since moving into my own place i've grown to appreciate this area you are never lonely because some of your classmates stay behind to go to school or to start families you're never lonely because they'll too people can't get out of this town is what that says to me don't worry no one else can get out either it's fine
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now, the defense decides to forego the opening statement until they start their case, which is an option they have. They can do it in the beginning or later. So now the prosecution ushers 27 witnesses into the court in two days. most of whom agree on the following.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Kimmy Hardy has faked an untold number of countless pregnancies, has owned at least four handguns, has been obsessed with having children since her sterilization, and is a fucking liar. These are all the things we're trying to establish about her. Which all of them are true.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now, the physical evidence, they have shown that the bathroom window curtain from the Hardee's upstairs bathroom matched in color, pattern, and everything else to the shower curtain determined to have been wrapped around the dead body of Teresa Lund.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They showed footprint records showing that six-week-old Eugene, six-week-old child that Hardy had attempted to pass off as Dusty Eugene, was actually Paul Eugene Lund. Either way, the middle name is Eugene. What the fuck? Did she know that? Did she? Is that common? Is it so common there that they wouldn't notice? Both moms are named Lynn middle names and both kids have a Eugene. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's weird. That's fucking weird. They produced hair and fabric samples from Hardy's basement crawl space, which they will testify belonged to Teresa Lund. Mm-hmm. They already told the jury that blood found in the crawl space has been proven by DNA tests to be Teresa Lund.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's every bit of evidence you could possibly have. She then had the baby in her arms.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The handgun with serial numbers that were not scratched off, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Fucking wow. Physical evidence is expected to get quite gruesome before the prosecution rests. The jurors have been warned to expect graphic photographs of Lund's body during the next few days. Because by the time they get her to autopsy, she is decomposed badly. Way too far, yeah. Badly, badly. So that's not good.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now, the DCI agent Paul Bush told jurors that he examined the crawlspace area at the home and found the soil at the entrance was damp and contained a small reddish brown stain. There was no evidence of blood spatters on the box or other items in the boxes or other items in the basement.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But they said DNA analysis of the stain shown showed that it matched six of seven of Teresa's DNA characteristics. That would mean that one person per 1700 people could have the same markers, which if you didn't find her corpse, you could go, well, that's two. That's not enough people. But you found her corpse. It's her. Bob testifies.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yep, he's made a deal with the prosecutors to testify. He said, I was at my job and I got told, you know, my foreman came up and said, baby's born, you should come home. Get on out of here. So he described himself as a happy man. He said, I believe the baby was mine. I had no reason to believe otherwise. He said that he'd been, yes, he did help to dispose of the body.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he'd been told by his wife to lie, saying that she had been pregnant. Just say I was pregnant and that you delivered the baby yourself. We just did it at home, okay? He said that, but after the guests had left, he went downstairs and removed a large board, and he said when he saw the body of a woman in a red suit, he became ill but grabbed the ankles and pulled her out anyway.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He also testified that after dragging the body out of the basement, he did not connect the disappearance of Teresa and her baby to this body and this strange baby that just showed up. Nope, didn't connect. Didn't put two and two together there. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So he said he wrapped the body in plastic in an old comforter, dragged it up the stairs, like we said, back of the truck, dumped everything separately. Now, neither the defense nor the prosecution asked him what explanation Kimmy gave him for the body being in the basement. Because he must have said, there's what now? Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Can't leave. You are close to the great Mississippi river, which has breathtaking views of the bald Eagles. Once winter is over, it's also a low cost of living area. So this would be an ideal place to save money and help build your career with the job opportunities in the area, which are like factories. So I don't know how that works.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
No one asks him, I guess because it would be hearsay, I don't know, but it wouldn't be because it's direct to him, so it wouldn't be hearsay. But no one asks him, what did she tell you? What the fuck? How could you do that? Now, the defense here, Kimmy, with her defense attorney, claims she bought the baby for different amounts. Different dollar figures, yeah. Either $3,000 or $1,500.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
We're not sure. Wow. But did, and also she didn't kill Teresa, but she did bury the body after discovering it in the crawl space of her house. But she didn't kill her. Okay. Now, how do you get to there? Well, she's got quite the tale to weave on the stand.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It's one thing to say this to your husband or whoever to get on a stand in a courtroom with a fireplace and marble wainscoting and a motherfucker in a robe sitting up there with a gavel and say some of this shit.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
is some of the biggest balls i've ever heard she should have been a fucking bank robber or like a an old west gunfighter because she's got big huge balls maybe that's why she can't have kids anymore just huge big balls are in the way balls are too big they're in the way can't do it yeah block them on in there so his her story is that a florida drug dealer framed her for murder and
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And that's what's going on. What? And then she said not only that, not only this drug dealer framed her, but that dozens of witnesses who've been testifying against her, including local police, FBI agents, and her own stepmother, all lied on the stand as part of this conspiracy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Really. Really. A little different, a psychiatrist said, quote unquote.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So even though she was sterilized more than a decade ago, a procedure with a 99.7% success rate.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She insisted that she was actually pregnant this whole time.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She said she was six months pregnant in August and lost the baby after slipping in the shower. That's what she insists, even though she had her tubes tied.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They say, in a sometimes tearful testimony Wednesday, Kimmy, the Keokuk woman accused of faking a pregnancy, lured a young mother to her home and killing her to pass off the woman's infant son as her own, testified that she did not fake the entire pregnancy, just the last few days of it. Okay. That makes it much better.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
In desperation and grief, she said that she turned to her former drug boss... who she said was Anthony Matrana, M-A-T-R-A-N-A, Anthony Matrana for help getting the baby her new husband so desperately wanted. She said, I need, he wanted this baby and I lost it. We just got married. So I said, can you get me a baby? Cause you know, people can get drugs. They get babies too. No problem.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I'm excited to be able to attend college and get a nursing degree right here in my hometown. So that's someone who grew up there and now they're in college. Okay. Three stars. Very small community. Has a Walmart, which is a plus, but not much beyond that.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And a baby. What do you want, an eight ball and a baby? No problem. I'll be there in 15 minutes. He apparently, Kimmy said he told me that he knew someone, this is the drug dealer, he knew someone who had a child recently and they didn't want it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You know, Florida, those people, that's most of Florida's unwanted children. I think that's the whole point of the place. It seemed like the perfect solution. I wanted the child and someone else did it. Didn't quote unquote crying as often as she's told a story. The prosecution openly called a load of garbage. She testified to the following after her miscarriage on October 23rd.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she's saying it was five days before she said she had the baby. Through a mutual friend in Chicago, she left a message for Anthony Matrana to call her.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he did. Heard of her miscarriage and told her, I could get you, kid. No problem. Don't you worry about that. So August 28th, the same day that Teresa happened to disappear, just coincidentally, two employees of Matrana came to Hardy's home and asked Kimmy to leave for about a half hour. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
We work for Anthony. Get out of here for a half hour. And she said, okay. So she went out and drove around Keokuk and then returned home about an hour later. When she did, the two men handed her a baby and said, good luck, and left.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's the thing. He told her, he told the jurors that two Mexican men came to her home. When she returned, she had a baby. And then Matrana called the next day and she said, I told him the baby was perfect, the most beautiful baby I've ever seen. Then this is, no, the baby, the body hasn't been mentioned at all. Right.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She then said Anthony Matrana called back the next day. Yeah. And this is the best part of all. Telling her to look for a, quote, surprise in her basement.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
A surprise is a good thing. Hey, there's a surprise for you down there in the basement. Like maybe he bought a couple months worth of diapers for her as like a gift or something, a new rattle. Nope, it's the mother's corpse.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah. When one of the features of your town is the Walmart, that says a lot there. Needs some new things and places. It sounds like it does. Yeah. Three stars. I would actually probably not live here again if I never lived here before. Okay. Well, yeah, if you didn't live there before, it'd be impossible to live there again.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Surprise. Oh, shit. She said there she went downstairs looking at the surprise. She was very excited and ready to blow out the candles. She said she found Teresa's body with her, but with Kimmy's own handgun lying next to it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They used my gun to kill her. So now what do I do? So she said she didn't tell the police about Matrana sooner because she knows what he's capable of and feared that he would hurt her children.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's right. And I'll put it next to it and blame him. She testified Matrana told her to look in the basement and she said, I saw a part of a body. I was sick. I was hysterical. So the lawyer said, why didn't you call the police? She said, I didn't want to lose this precious baby. Yeah, right.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So when the guests were at her home on August 29th, she said she pulled Bob off to the side and told him, you know, there's a corpse in the basement. I got a surprise. Hey, I was going to say there's a surprise downstairs. Just keep passing it off to different people. Sell the house as is but with a surprise in the basement. That's what you do. As is plus surprise.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she said my husband was shocked beyond belief.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He's very surprised and shocked. So this is a surprise. Then she changed her story about the baby's purchase price on the stand, which is one of several inconsistencies throughout her testimony. Instead of paying $3,000 cash, she now said that she paid about $1,500 cash plus an antique shotgun and a .380 caliber handgun to him.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They take trade for babies and murders. It's like a swap meet, really. You can negotiate. You never know what the fuck's going to go on.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I mean, she's definitely crazy. But legally insane, no. But she is sure crazy as fuck. Oh, boy. Wow. She said that none of her previous pregnancies over the course of four husbands and several boyfriends were ever faked, as the state alleges. That's just a bad tubes tie and didn't work.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She said that a week before she fell in the shower, lost the baby. She said this was the only time. She said she bled heavily for days.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She said, I was very upset. We were all looking forward to this very much. I didn't tell my husband. I didn't want to believe this was happening.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So then her lawyer attempted to show that Anthony Matrana had been had been in Iowa running a drug operation in Iowa and in had in 1995 killed a drug competitor in Washington, Iowa. McMurray asked a police officer to read from a clipping from the Washington, Iowa Evening Post, and it said man killed in house explosion.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And the man McMurray showed from the article was Floyd Clifford Groff, a convicted drug dealer and narcotics manufacturer. There's no connection with anything else. Just house blew up. He might have been making drugs and blew his house up.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what I'm saying. Yeah, he's making meth. Iowa's way ahead of the curve in meth making. In 96, they were already cooking that shit. During cross-examination, which, good God, could this be any more of a prosecutor's dream than to cross-examine this lying idiot.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Again requires a first time. Before, yeah. So, yeah, you just made that rule and figured it out all on your own there. There are better towns and cities to live in that are not eliminating things each year. Eliminating what? Oh, so it's dying. Apparently. I've just lived here all my life, so it's very hard to just up and leave. Yeah, you're stuck here once you're here.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She admitted that she lied to her husband and family about having hired a midwife to come to her house. But she also denied telling police that she did something so bad that I had to get Bob involved. And she said she never told them that she sold fake drugs at bars.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Now, the prosecutor, Bruce McDonald, asked why Hardy... Let me ask you this, basically. You had a miscarriage, so you were very sad. So you turned to a violent drug dealer for comfort.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's who you turned to. Trying to see what we're saying here, lady. It doesn't make sense. He said, you're asking this jury to believe that you chose to call a man you were afraid of and thought would hurt your children. This is who you turn to in your hour of need.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they said, with short, sharp questions, he attacked Hardy's story, discounting her tale of a miscarriage at six months of pregnancy. Why has Anthony Matrana's story changed so many times, he asked her. Why did she initially tell the police two men dropped off the baby without entering the house? Waiting until after Teresa Lund's blood was found in her basement to say the men came inside.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what it was. She's molding it to the evidence. Yeah. Her response is all the same. She said she always told police the same thing, and all the police and investigators and FBI agents who testified otherwise were lying. Okay. They're lying. Everyone else is lying except me. I'm the only one telling the truth. Wow. She admitted that she lied to her husband and family, though.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She admitted that. She also denied telling police some other shit. Now, here's the big question. Does Anthony Matrana even fucking exist?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Did she make this guy up? Well... Mick Murray, like we said, attempted to show that he blew up a guy in 1995 and he's a big fucking drug dealer in the area from Florida here. The prosecution, though, tried to punch holes in that story. They testify that two FBI databases listing U.S. drug dealers, those who have been arrested or even mentioned by other people arrested for drugs.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So someone came in and said, I know a guy named this. They put you on this list. Right. No, the name Anthony Matrana does not exist in that list at all.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Phone records also seem to contradict Kimmy's claim that Anthony Matrana called her one day in the summer of 96, telling her that he would get her a child if she would pay him $3,000 and agree to mule drugs for him.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Please, come in here. You don't need condoms for anything else but for heroin you need it for. But Hardy's phone records, the prosecution showed, do not list any incoming calls from a Florida residence during the entire year of 1996.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Never. The suggestion that Matrana was a true killer came after a morning of emotional and gruesome testimony. Probably the biggest discovery of the day was that the mysterious Anthony Matrana died
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
does exist oh is that right yes he's just not a drug dealer it's just a dude that sells cars in fucking manchester it's even it's even funnier oh even fucking funny great this is fucking amazing as the defense is only two witnesses both kimmy hardy and her ex-husband gary drummond testified they had lived with matrana in homa louisiana in 1981 her first husband and her lived with this guy oh my god
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This place used to be very kid-friendly, but now there isn't much for kids to do, and that's why crime has gotten higher. If I could tell people, I would say go to a bigger, better place. And that's the thing. For a small town, population 9,977, the crime rate here when we get to it is outrageous for a 10,000 person. Out-fucking-rageous. It's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
With their one rebuttal witness, the prosecution showed that Matrana does not live in Florida, as Hardy has contended, but still lives in the same town of Louisiana, Houma. We did it as an episode, remember? Yeah, he's never left, yeah. Never left. Though Kimmy Hardy had implicated Matrana in the murder and everything, Hardy has also said she had no address or phone number for him.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She did not know how to get in touch with the drug dealer, she said, because that's not the way it's done in the drug business. In the drug business, no one can get a hold of anyone. People have been looking to make a deal, same deal, since like 72. They just can't get a hold of somebody.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Good God. That's the opposite of how it started in the drug business. Availability is the number one.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, yeah. I don't think she would have killed her kid.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So they said until Tuesday, it had never been disclosed that Hardy had lived with Matrana in Louisiana. After that information came out, then the prosecutors found him immediately. He's listed in an AT&T directory information, still living in Houma, Louisiana. He's a baker. He owns a bakery.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He does deal in flour, but he cooks it first before he sells it to anybody.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He puts egg in there, too, is the difference. What the fuck is happening?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
In a conference with police and the prosecution's lawyers, Matrana told them that he has never dealt drugs and his record is completely clean except for a traffic ticket in 1977. Oh, this poor bastard. In 20 years, this man's done nothing wrong but bake fucking cakes.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
This guy's baking Napoleons down in Louisiana. He said he's been a Louisiana baker forever, not a Florida drug dealer. He said, I've never heard such crazy stuff in my life. He said, they can check me out. I'm not scared. They ain't got nothing to find. She's got to be insane to say some of the stuff she said.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said, I'm not a drug dealer. I'm a baker. He said, he's shaken up by the brouhaha here. He's very shaken up.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said they had to – he said, number one, he's never even been to Iowa ever. Really? The whole state. And they had to jog his memory about Gary and Kimmy. He didn't even – he was like, who are we talking about? And they were like, you know, 1981. He goes, oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, we were my roommates from 15 years ago. Okay, yeah. He said, it took me a while to try and even remember.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And that's a long time ago. He said he's puzzled that she would even remember his name. She goes, I don't even remember her fucking name. She remembered my name. You had to tell me that. Wow. He said her and her husband, Gary, stayed with him for three, maybe four weeks. Not barely a month. Not even a month. When he was living in Bayou Blue, a small community on the outskirts of Houma.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. That is fucking funny. Her husband worked for him for a little while at a bakery store where he was a supervisor. Oh, my God. Matrana now owns his own shop, Best Bakery. I don't know if it's still around, but if it is, please give this man business.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That was 30 years ago almost, though. He could be dead by now or retired.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They got the gun dealer, Darwin Todd. It's really funny that his name is Darwin. That really sets it all into... That really sets all of this into fucking focus. A local gun dealer that he had decided not to sell Hardy a gun if she returned to the store because one of the places she shopped at was his place.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He said that when she was in the store, she seemed agitated and asked him, if I held this gun point blank range, would it kill someone?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Which is not what you ask when you're fucking buying a gun.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. A second local gun dealer, Lonnie McCoy, testified that the gun determined to be the murder weapon had matching serial numbers to the one he sold her. Defense attorney attacked the testimony of a DCI agent named Robert Harvey, who told jurors that one of the bullets found in the skull came from the .380 caliber handgun. Definitely.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He was less positive about the second bullet because bullets get fucked up.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Saying he couldn't rule out that it could have been shot from a different caliber weapon such as a 9mm or a .357. Sure. Okay. Now, prosecution, they're closing. They call Kimmy a consummate liar. That's a good way to put it. Who must be convicted of first-degree murder. He said, this is simply a made-up story. Look at what she's telling us.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
if you keep kids busy, they'll do less crime. That's, I mean, they figured that out a long time ago.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Her version of the story is repeatedly at odds with witness after witness, including her own husband and stepmother, who she calls a liar. The defense closing, how do you... Fuck, if you're the defense, how do you... Wow, he told the... I don't even know where to go with this if I'm them.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He told the jury, this is multiple lawyers, tell the jury to specifically consider one thing. Okay. Kimmy wouldn't have had time to lure Teresa to her home, kill her, clean up the mess, stuff the body in the crawl space, and be lying in bed passing the baby off as her own by 10.30 a.m., Considering we knew that Teresa was around at 8.30. In two hours, that's not enough time for that, they said.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So by the time Robert came home from work that day. But she didn't have to clean up the basement that day. She could have done it. As long as she got her out of the living room, she could have dealt with it while Robert was at work the next day.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
That's what I mean. All the crime is kids. Give me a break. Uh, so 9,977 lot, 53% female, which is way above the national average. And especially for a town of 10,000 people, apparently criminal, criminal women here, median age is 40, which is just a little bit higher than the national average. Um, About 43% married, which is lower than the national average. 25% are single with children.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And they cleaned it later after they got rid of the body.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So the other defense attorney said that the prosecutors didn't form the fabric of proof that they promised. She said they've produced something like lace, and lace has a lot of holes in it.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Wow. I want to see somebody's lace. Fuck, picture her lace. Then the other defense attorney said that, you know, we're not trying to say she's a model citizen, but she's not a murderer. He says, we're not saying she's Snow White or Betty Crocker, which are both fictional characters, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Neither of them even exist as like an actor. They're just a person, just a name. She's not up for mother of the year. She's dealt drugs, she's done drugs, and she's been promiscuous. But that doesn't make her a murderer. If it does, then we've got a lot of them out on the streets. Okay. Okay. So the jury comes back in.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
As soon as Kimmy sees the looks on the jurors' faces, she motions for them to take her 12-year-old out of the courtroom. This isn't going well at all. It took six hours for the jury to come to a verdict here, though. We'll find out why. They come to a verdict. They find her guilty of first-degree murder, second-degree kidnapping, and child stealing.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They say at the time they were talking about they can do the sentencing right now or delay. And the defense said, let's fucking do it now. Really? Let's get it going. So the judge says, no problem. You, ma'am, may fuck off life without parole.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Plus 25 years. You've done it, lady. You did it all there. You tell your tales and your stories all you want from prison. You can't kill people and steal their babies. That's crazy. Wow. She silently nodded her head as the judge sentenced her to forever in prison.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The lawyer said she's taking it very calmly. I'm sure it's a disappointment, though. This lawyer said she requested that Hardy be sentenced immediately because I asked her and she said she was ready. Okay. Now, Teresa's mother, Velva here, said the outcome brought her no peace. She said it was the right verdict, but that doesn't keep my daughter alive. This doesn't help.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You could sentence her to death. You could draw and court her in front of the courthouse. It's not going to bring my fucking person back. That's the thing here. Teresa's family all said they were happy about the verdict. Velma or sorry, Velva said she's fine with it because, quote, I don't believe in the death penalty. But Teresa's younger brother, Gerald, said, well, I do. Calm down, Gerald.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Standing quietly in the courthouse hallway was Pam Brauschenweg. She wore heart-shaped pin with a picture of Teresa Lund in the center. She had been in the second row of the courtroom since jury selection began. She said, Teresa was my cousin and my best friend. She said she felt no relief knowing that Kimmy would be spending the rest of her life in prison.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Sure. Next up, what about Terry Bell, the baby's actual father? This poor bastard. He lost his fucking new wife. Lost everything. Not his new wife, but his wife, the mother of his children. It's a lot for him. He said that she was convicted and that gave him no satisfaction. He said, I would be much happier if Teresa wasn't staying here, was staying here. Like, that would be fine.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
I'd rather have her back. He says he thinks that Robert should be convicted of first degree murder also. She said that he said there have been should have been no deals cut for nobody is what he said.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
He wants vengeance, which doesn't helpful. They asked the jurors what they had. Why did it take six fucking hours? One juror who asked not to be identified said that Hardy was not credible and made countless inconsistent statements, meaning to Kimmy. She said from day one, she had different stories and told different stories about the events.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So the only reason they deliberated was for so long was because of the defense's assertion that she would not have had enough time to commit the murder. They actually considered that. Did she have the time to do it?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So all of the family town stats, it's like the opposite of that. Race in this town, 87.3% white, 4.7% black, 1.6% Asian, and 3.3% Hispanic. Religion, 50-50 in religion. It's right at the national average. Yeah, you've got your other Christian is high here. Also, Catholic is high here as well. So there's that. 0.0% Jewish there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And if she did, then great. So another juror characterized the deliberations as heated. I would be cracking up. Imagine being in that juror. I'd be laughing. Did you hear what she fucking said? Oh, my God. That's crazy. The dude's a baker. He's a baker. I'd be dying laughing. Holy shit. Wow. This juror said it was a hard day. The whole thing was tough.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
It was a tough decision, but we felt we made the right decision. How is it tough? I don't get it. Yeah. Now, Bob Handy, Robert, the husband here, he pleads guilty to charges of interference with official acts and possession of a firearm by a felon. He's already a felon. Yeah. He is originally charged with seven felonies, but he's gone down to that.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
And he is sentenced to you, sir, may fuck off up to 10 years in prison.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So he'll probably do, you know, five or ten years.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
For dumping a body. That's pretty nuts. They had to make that deal because he gave all the testimony. Yeah, he was helpful. And I think they honestly fucking believed him that he didn't know.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yeah, I think they put themselves in his shoes and went, wow, imagine that. That'd be fucking nuts. What would you do?
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
So she's life without. 1998, she wants a new trial.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The first trial, she said, was too sensational. Too sensational. She said that her case was too sensational to be tried fairly in her hometown where she was convicted of first degree murder. In turning down her appeal for a new trial, though, the court said that although media reports and comments by officials were at times sensational, they weren't enough to ruin her chances of a fair trial.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They said some of the reports carried a sensational tone. However, there were no more sensational than the inherent in the crimes alleged.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Yes. What you did is sensational. It's fucking crazy.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
You stole a baby, killed a mother, faked a shitload of pregnancies. You buried a fucking teddy bear. You buried a lie, lady. You told... You told everybody that a fucking baker from Houma, Louisiana is a drug dealing international murderer. This is fucking crazy. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They said upon reviewing the record, we find sufficient evidence for the jury to have inferred that Hardy committed first degree murder. 2001, she tries again, and they say that Robert Hardy's testimony fit her defense. They say that it was a little bit different, but not the – oh, that was the psychiatrist.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
They basically say here that ineffective assistance of counsel, and that's because her attorney should have objected to her husband's testimony. Because they're married and she shouldn't be able to testify against him. But that is if you don't want to testify against it. You can't compel someone to.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
But if they want to, to stay out of jail for the rest of their life, they're perfectly fucking welcome to.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
She also argued that the lawyer was ineffective because he should have used an insanity defense, not taking into account that their hired psychiatrist for the defense said that she was a little bit different but not insane. So how are you going to have an insanity defense on that? It's fucking ridiculous. They said, The privilege for marital communications is recognized in Iowa by statute.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Neither husband nor wife can be examined in any case as to any communication made by one to the other while married, nor shall they, after the marriage relation ceases, be permitted to reveal in testimony any such communication made while the marriage subsisted." This app, this privilege is not absolute. They're both common law and legislative exceptions.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Hardy contends her trial attorney should have objected testimony that Robert learned from her wife, from his wife. A smell in the basement came up and it was the sewer backing up all that kind of shit. saying all of Robert's shit, though. They said that the state contends marital privilege does not apply in this case, though.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The state first argues without authority the testimony of Robert at trial did not refer to private communications between the Hardys made in the context of their marriage. We find no reason to accept this part of the state's argument.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
Unemployment rate here is 5.7, which is above the national average at this point. Median household income.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The state next argues that the decision not to object to the testimony was strategic and the testimony was not prejudicial to Hardy's defense because it corroborated the aspects of the case Hardy did not deny. The state further contends that even if the statements were not admissible, they did not adversely affect her defense because they were corroborative and cumulative in nature.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The state further contends Hardy was not prejudiced because of the strength of the state's case. Okay, so anyway, the statement that the smell in the basement may not have been sewer gas was not prejudicial and was consistent with her statements indicating she knew the body was there the day after she got the baby because she said the people put it down there.
Small Town Murder
#559 - Be My Baby - Keokuk, Iowa
The Mexicans put it down there, as she put it. And while the statement Hardy told Robert to say that he helped deliver the baby... impacted on hardy's truthfulness it supports her representation that she was pregnant and delivered her child she's failed to prove her trial counsel is ineffective or that she was prejudiced by errors affirmed keep on keeping on bitch there you go
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
We're going to get one crime and sports and one small town murder and anybody five bucks a month or above. Just take it all. Just take it all! We don't even want it. Just take it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This week, which we're going to do for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about, this is very interesting, the 2012 Miami Dolphins bullying scandal. Because you think these are giant football players and stuff. Who's bullying anybody? We can take it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Or it's like, yeah, everyone gets bullied at work or whatever the fuck it is. I don't know. So whatever your opinion is on it, there's some stuff that's come out recently where people's opinions on it at the time, some of the people who were involved have now changed their opinions. So it's very interesting. And then for Small Town Murder, one of the craziest things ever, the Amazon review killer.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh. who was like a serial killer who kidnapped these couples and killed them and did all this awful shit. He held women as hostages and did terrible things to them until he got tired of them and killed them.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he would take all of the implements of his crimes, buy them on Amazon, and then review them honestly on Amazon, telling how good or bad they were at killing people or holding hostages or whatever. And people would laugh and say it was hilarious. I found that helpful. And it's like, no! Talk about that and more. Patreon.com slash crime in sports.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But we want to say thank you right now to everybody who has been a patron. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever throw us into a lake to drown while our brain quietly seeps out of our nose. Hit me with them right fucking now.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Beau Janais, please. I hear it's good tonight.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I think so. I think he is. Yeah, yeah. He drove all the way there to see us in Phoenix.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That tells me about heritage and old-timey things.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Fireworks over Lake Michigan, pulled pork sandwiches with fixins.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
With fixins. From 5 p.m. until sold out, it says. Music by Barefoot. That's the band.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It'll be just like a regular live show, except we're going to be wearing costumes. And since it'll be a 420 show, it takes place on the 19th of April, and there's two weeks you can get it after that. But since it's on 420, I'll have crazy smoking apparatus for Jimmy to be terrified of. And a crazy story and all the pictures and everything like that. Can't wait.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
We don't even know. That's how out of it is. We don't even know if you're being insulting or supportive. We don't know whether to say thank you or fuck you. Yeah. If we can't tell her to say thank you or fuck you, it's weird. Sorry.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I would hope so. They returned in one whole movie.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No, no, Barefoot. Not One Shoe, nothing like that. We have free horse carriage rides. Dance to live music by Bent Carrot, which sounds like a dick euphemism.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'm just Mogwai. That's Mr. Warbucks is my dad, really. Call me Mogwai.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's with, what's his name from before? They're together.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The other one. The first one. We had another one of those tonight.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They love the Bart Simpson calling Moe's bar.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Two first names. That's what you get. Get it together with the last name, guys, and exchange something. You both come away with two fucking normal names.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Sounds like you got some Peronis and you got a dick euphemism.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And fucking bent carrot time. Kids fishing tournament. Children's story. Fishing for kids. A doubles cornhole tournament. Let's get together and see how much corn we can hold.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Thank you so much, everybody, for all that you do for us. Honestly, we cannot thank you enough for everything. Keep hanging out with us. Tell your friends. Follow us on social media. You want to do that, shut up and give me murder.com. Drop down menu will take you anywhere you want to go. Keep coming back week after week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Double-sided. Also a ham and German potato salad lunch. That's a, you're going to be farting all day.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I think the German one is mustard. That's the German yellow one. I think there's maybe Mayo too, but it's a mainly a mustardy based one. The German one, it has like bacon in it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's it's, it's okay. It's not too terrible. Um, let me see here. We also have, um, free horse carriage rides, more music by barefoot. They're playing every fucking night.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Then there's the mini ha-ha brew ha-ha.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Okay, now the festival will highlight the talented local bands that call northwestern Michigan home. Oh, no. These are bands from the woods, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, man. It says from students who are just starting their music careers to the homestyle jamboree bands of music lovers. This sounds awful. Jesus Christ. The centerpiece stage will be supported by a collection of other homegrown favorites like local food trucks and a tasting sponsored by regional breweries. We believe that local acts deserve a spot in the limelight.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They will once they get good enough for people to see them.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This isn't the 70s. No. They're out there on the internet. If people like them, they'll find them.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Chapel Roan was a nobody a year and a half ago, and she had tons of music already made. You know what I mean? Go pick it up. Don't worry about it. It happens. So they want to do that and encourage the growth of our unique music scene. Now, this includes, at 11 a.m., the coveted 11 a.m. spot that all performers can't wait to do. The Crosscut Kings will be there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
What do you think that band looks like? And I guarantee you, everyone out there listening right now, no matter what you're fucking picturing, you are really wrong. Like, dead fucking wrong.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And you should get tickets for regular live shows while you're there as well. Next up in May, we have St. Louis and Chicago. Think St. Louis is about gone, everybody. But Chicago, still tickets left for Chicago. Get them right now before they're gone. And for the rest of the year, too, because we have a bunch of shows that are sold out already. Get in there right now, even in December.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's first of all, they have a stand up base, which is there's like an oboe or a clarinet or some shit. A lady who looks like she's wearing a fucking prom dress with full gloves going up her arm above the elbow, man. Three dudes, four dudes in bow ties. It looks like if you went to a seat, if you went to a fancy hotel, they'd be quietly playing in the lounge. Well, I'm being ignored.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Jango Fanik. And then there is after him, Darren Vandermolen. who I hate to do this to you, but I'm just going to show him to you, and you can make your own.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He looks just like you. I hate it. I hate that he does.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I saw the picture, and I'm like, oh, no, it's Jimmy rocking on the bass.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, no. Same thing. And he's playing bass with a little kid in front of him there. We also have Nick Veen. Vine. Veen. I don't know. V-E-I-N-E. I don't know who the fuck that is.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He needs to come up with a better name. Either a cock euphemism or it's Vine. I don't know. The Mark Lavingood Band.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That is the Mark Lavin Bad Band, it sounds like. I'm not into that. Jones and the Get Down, which at least sounds like a band. Sean Kelly, who I assume is going to just play Irish fucking Irish music the whole time.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The Ride, after that. The Jim Cummins Band. Yeah. And then TC Knuckleheads.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Beats the shit out of me. I don't know. Those are local bands, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in here, property crime is about one-third below the national average, so it's safer than normal. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is about half the national average.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
As you would expect at a sleepy lake town, people aren't just savaging each other in the streets, which is fine.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's what it is. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. You can't avoid it. Unavoidable. So that said, let's talk about some murder here. Let's get into this. Let's talk about a woman first here. Florence Stern. Okay. S-T-E-R-N. Stern. Goes by Flo. That's a cooler name. Flo... Anybody with the name Flo sounds cool.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They sound like they're cool. Hey, Flo. Hey, what's happening? She sounds chill. She's born in 1966. Here. She is from Huntington Woods, Michigan, which is a Detroit suburb, apparently. Yeah. They made it sound like it's way far away from Detroit, though.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Philly, D.C., get them right now because they're almost gone. So do that. Shutupandgivememurder.com. Also, listen to Crime in Sports if you haven't because this week you definitely don't have to like sports. We have been doing a series on Evel Knievel, who's just one of the craziest guys. What a guy. That's more of a cultural icon type thing. It has nothing to do with sports. Check it out.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Put Woods in there. People will think it's totally different. They won't see.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And then your servant will go retrieve the deer for you that you just shot from your front woods. She's the daughter of Harold and Claire Stern. And people apparently flow.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
using by the she's has the name flow so she's got to use it is very good at making friends and very good at connecting with people yeah she's very good at that very real friendly and that kind of shit and she's into arts uh in college she's a fine arts major okay so she does that um her friend said she brought a sense of beautiful of the beautiful to everything she did
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I don't know what that means. That sounds pretentious.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'm sure they won't. He brought a sense of beautiful to everything he did. I'm more likely to say he looked like Dan Vandermolen or whoever that guy. Darren Vandermolen or whoever the fuck that was.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Never, never, you son of a bitch.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, you bastard. So, yeah, she did that, Sense of the Beautiful. I'm not saying she sounds pretentious. Her friend sounds pretentious for saying that. It sounds weird. Now, she knew somebody named Connie here who has a brother named Mark, all right? Connie says she's beautiful, she's charming, she's fun. You know, Flo's a great lady here. Now, Connie's brother...
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
His name is Mark, Mark Unger, like Felix, U-N-G-E-R. He is born in 1960, so a few years older than her. Also from the Huntington Woods area.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Interesting. So he's got two sisters, Kim and Connie. And Connie's the one who knows this flow. Now Unger, when he's a kid, he's a big sports guy. Always really into sports. Wanted to be like an athlete, but like most people, isn't going to be a professional athlete. Unfortunately. Yeah, but still wants to do shit involved in sports. That's his deal.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He played t-ball when he was a kid like kids do and loves sports. He attended the Detroit Country Day School where he was on the tennis team. Oh, so number one, Detroit Country Day School. That sounds like a private school. That's very fancy because there's schools here that are like the Rye Country Day School. My friend went to he got a hockey scholarship and it's very expensive.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Country Day School. They were like in the 90s. They were like 20 grand a year to send your kid to high school. It was wild.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So that sounds expensive. And he's on the tennis team, which is also an expensive sport.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I didn't fucking have it. I mean, there was like parks with tennis courts, but no one played tennis on them. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Otherwise, people just set the nets on fire. That's all.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. So he ended up going to the University of Michigan. And so did Flo.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's a crazy series. And also listen to Your Stupid Opinions, which is the funniest show on the internet. So check all those out. And then also subscribe to Patreon while you're at it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So that's where they're going to meet here. A couple of Wolverines. A couple of Wolverines. Connie here, big Jim Harbaugh fans. Well, not anymore, I guess. No, no. He's gone now. So Connie and big Bo Schembechler fans back then, I guess. I don't know. So Connie here describes Mark. That's her describing her own brother as a very gentle teddy bear of a guy. That's all.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Connie said her brother and Flo met through. And this is weird. Met through Connie's daughter, who was one of Flo's friends. So I assume Connie's got to be much older than her brother, because I think he's the youngest of the family here. So she's got to be much older and have had a daughter very young for her to be in the same age bracket as someone six years younger than Mark.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So that's interesting. So, yeah, he met Flo through his niece, which is very strange. Very odd here. So Mark ended up, I guess, graduating from Michigan, and that's when they began dating, which makes sense because that's when she was old enough to date at that point probably.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Because they're six years apart. So the timeline of all of this is skewed, and I don't know how old he was and how old she was when they met, but I'm not liking that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, I feel like it's 22 and 16 is what it is, and that creeps me out. So I'm hoping it's not that, but we don't know. Connie went on to say about Flo, quote, she was beautiful, she was charming, she's fun, and they seemed very much in love.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody, $5 a month or above, you're going to get it all. You're going to get hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before immediately upon subscription. Then new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder, and you're going to get them all. That's right.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So there you go. They began dating after he graduated, and they get married a few years later. Have a big, beautiful wedding in the middle of a big snowstorm. Oh. Which, yeah, everybody said it was just beautiful. I mean, the pictures through the window look great. They look great.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And the bride walking out with the white dress with the snow coming down must have been freezing her ass off unless she had a park on. It's great. You want your wedding pictures to be with a park on, usually. That's how it works.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So after Mark graduated from U of M here, he spent a year in California at Pepperdine University studying advertising. And then he returned to live in Detroit or in the suburbs there in Huntington Woods and, you know, all that kind of thing. So his passion is always sports. And his mother said he really wanted to be a sportscaster.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
All of it this week for crime and sports. We're going to talk about the 2012 Miami Dolphins bullying scandal and some new stuff that's come up about that lately. You know, in retrospect, people have different opinions now. So that's interesting. And then for small town murder, we're going to talk about the Amazon review killer. Who killed people, held women hostage, did all this stuff.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
which is interesting by the way his parents got divorced while he was in college like if that's not a signal once the last kids in college we would have done a while ago dude they wanted to get divorced for 25 years is what that means yeah we've been sticking it out faking it giving you a fraud of a childhood as soon as he got like his tv set up in his dorm room they were fucking drawn up divorce papers like well that's that we did it
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Raised him up and out. That's time to fucking deal with us now.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's all a lie. And that, I think, has some effect on him, by the way. It's got to.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It has some kind of weird effect on him here. Because you have to know that, oh, God, they've been sitting here waiting me out for years. That's fucked up. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
so he ends up getting a job as a sportscaster or on the sports radio type show on w i can't make this up if i tried wjzz fm w jizz everybody's got to hear the hits on w jizz w jizz i'll change it a little from snoops but it's fine there's the cages in arizona and Oh, I know, but that was jazz always, right? It's the jazz station.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This isn't even a jazz station. This is a sports station.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Calling themselves dub jizz. Like, what the fuck, man? I don't get it. So, yeah, it's defunct nowadays anyway. Oh, good.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I wonder how that ended up happening. Yeah. WJZZ, the jizz.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
We're calling it the jizz. That's all it's ever going to be. Now, while this is going on, she's working in retail at the time, and Mark loved it. This is his lifelong dream, because he figures from this lowly local, this is where you start. He can move his way up, and eventually he'll be on SportsCenter. You know what I mean? That's the way it is.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Right. Totally. That's the way he's looking at it. So he says, quote, I had the greatest job in the world. This is Mark. I went to every game. I mean, it was amazing. And she worked at places where she could buy clothes and jewelry and stuff. I mean, we were very happy. So, yeah, he kind of dismissed her. It's like she just works. She works to buy jewelry.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So it's a whatever. So they end up having two sons, Max and Tyler. One's born in 93 and one's born in 96. At one point I was like, I won't put their names in there. I was like, they're in their 30s. It's fine. Yeah. I try it whenever someone's like a minor. Still, I try to keep them out of it. But I'm like, these these people are like one dude's 32, for Christ's sake.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You know, that's that's enough. So, I mean, I feel terrible for it for the money. So he said he said, I knew she'd be an awesome mother. And she was. That's Mark's statement about flow. So they end up moving back to the Huntington Woods area. I guess they were living more near the college for a while.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And then the tools of that trade, he left truthful Amazon reviews about, about, you know, how this was helpful in killing people. It's bonkers. We'll talk all about that. That is patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. Yeah. Jimmy, I'll mess your name all up. That said, disclaimer time. It's a comedy show, everybody. That's one thing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They moved back to the Huntington Woods area where they both grew up because they both said, well, we were such a great place to be raised.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Great childhood, so let's raise our kids there as well. So they bought a house in the area, and it's a pricey area. It's a nice area. Huntington Woods, you know? So he ends up, she becomes a stay-at-home mom, taking care of the kids while they're here, and he leaves his job in radio. This is before the station went under and all that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He actually had the job, but he got a better job as a mortgage broker making more money. which he's fucking miserable, by the way, as you can imagine.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, to go from I go to every game and talk to the athletes.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Talk about sports for a living to mortgage brokering, which is the most boring fucking thing I can think of.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's not even real estate agent where at least you can go, oh, there's a new, if you're interested in houses or architecture.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Something, this is just, well, you've decided on it. Let's do the paperwork. This is an awful job, man.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he's doing that. Florence is becoming a stay-at-home mom, but they are making more money now and can afford to live in the suburb, and they're going to try to raise the family right here. Now, 1998 comes along, and Mark suffers a pretty good back injury. Not sure how it happened.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But yeah, he's got a pretty good back injury that he gets to where he has to go to the doctor and have a bunch of shit done and everything. So he begins, they gave him Vicodin for it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
yeah which in the 90s in the late 90s is when oxy oxy cotton came out and they were aggressively marketing that shit to doctors like oh my god i've seen these like documentaries on it and things where they're showing the like testimonials from back then saying there is zero percent chance of being addicted to this shit is that right oh absolutely yeah because they say and oxy oh my
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They're saying Oxy isn't addictive. You can prescribe it to anybody. It's great. You can prescribe it to kids, old people.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's, um, well that's where the opioid epidemic came from. It exploded after that. It exploded after that. They were encouraging and doctors to prescribe this to people and it was, and the doctors were going along with it cause they're making money. So it's, it's all, it was all kind of together at the time. And, uh,
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, and they seemed like they were believing what their trials from these people said from the companies, but the companies were lying. And so that's what ended up happening. It was hard. So he gets Vicodin for this anyway, and he becomes hooked on them, as one does.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he hasn't shit in a month. And in addition to that, he starts because he can't work also because his back's all fucked up. So now he's home all the time and he develops alcohol addictions as well. Because, I mean, a drink and a Viking and you're going to feel great.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You're going to feel like fucking soup all day. You're just going to be like, yeah. So I get it. And then he starts getting really heavy into gambling as well.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Unfortunately, the facts are as real as they could be, honestly. We wish we could just tell you fictional stories, and that would be fine. But these are real stories. The details are super real, meticulously researched, and everything like that. There's also going to be jokes. We're comedians. That's how we do this thing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This is not good. Yeah, to become a pill addict, alcoholic gambler at 38 is bonkers. And I get the gambling because he's very into sports. So maybe that's his way of keeping. Yeah, it's just getting worse now because he's bored. He's got money. Absolutely. And after a while, he just stops going to work and that's he's just home. He's on pills. It's not good.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So, yeah, Florence has to get a job and take care of the family because otherwise, you know, it's a mess. So Mark said it was not only the Viking and the gambling. It was my behavior in general. You know, the selfishness. That's what he said at one point. They began sleeping in separate bedrooms, the couple, which is never good. Yeah, because she's grossed out. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Well, he just doesn't come to bed or he passes out at 7.30 from booze and pills all day on the couch.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Kind of, yeah. I assume there's a chair here that's getting a lot of use. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, a recliner with a real ass groove here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No shit. So in addition to all this, her father, Harold, says that she never liked her married name. She never liked to be Flo Unger.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And it's also, it does look like Flounder, yeah. Flounder, it looks like.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But in 98, you were still only about 25 years removed from The Odd Couple, also being on television, and that's Felix Unger, and he's Tony Randall, the real persnickety guy, and it has a negative connotation to it. Mm-hmm. Like people say, you're a real Felix Unger. That's not a compliment. You know what I mean? Yikes. So I think that's part of it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The dad said she always hated the name Unger and intended to change her name back to Stern.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, oh, they still, people, you don't know how many people have said to that, have made a comment about that to Sarah. It's unbelievable. Really? Yeah, and it's like, why would you... Why would you want to change your name from a four-letter fucking last name that's a word everyone can spell to Petra Gallo? Why would you want to do that? She was like, does that hurt your feelings?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I was like, fuck no. Are you kidding me? I get it. I take Hunt. Yeah, I was like, I still want to be a guinea, but that's fine. But why would you want that? You don't take that on purpose. That's given to you when you go, I'm going to keep this and call it pride. That's what you do. You don't fucking do that on purpose.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So what we've decided and we figured out a long time ago that it's really easy to separate the two. That's it. There's nothing funny about an actual murder. That's not there's no joke when someone's head's being cut off. That's not funny. What's funny is where do I put the head now? That's a funny thought right there. Maybe I'll put it in the freezer and nobody will notice it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, you can pick what you want. I don't give a fuck. Some people care, but I don't care. That's between you. Who cares? Figure it out amongst yourselves.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So after he, in September of 2002, he decides, Mark decides to try to get his shit together and go to rehab. Okay, now he's going to end up, it's like a five-month thing he's in rehab for. This is serious.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He's in a lot of trouble. This is Vicodin, booze, and gambling.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And then some more. He's got like a triad of shit he's got to work out here. It's pretty bad.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he's going to be there until February of 2003. Okay. Florence, Flo here, not thrilled with the marriage at this point and is telling people that it's kind of beyond repair. He says at one point, I mean, she was not happy and she wasn't afraid to show it. He said it was in therapy, a therapy appointment with our marriage counselor. And he said, I don't want to tell you exactly what she said.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's between us, you know, but that's where it happened. And it was painful to hear.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, so she doesn't want anything to do with him at this point anymore. She was also at that point working as a mortgage loan officer at Royal Oak Bank. That's what she was doing. Yeah, she was just like, well, I guess I'll fucking write people's loans then. Whatever. Someone's got to write goddamn mortgages in this house to stay afloat. I'll do it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So people that know Flo know that she has actually been thinking about divorcing him for six or seven years now, since before the injury, before the Vicodin, before any of that shit. It's been a while. It's been a while. Her friend said that she said they had lacked just things in common, common interests. And there's a lot of lies in the marriage, she said, too.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And she wouldn't really elaborate, but she would say there's a lot of lies. We'll come up. We'll uncover a few of them here. Well, we have three of them. Some of them are hers, too, though. That's the thing we'll talk about. So he gets out of rehab in February 2003, and then August 26, 2003, Flo files for divorce. Flo gets her file on here. Now, Mark fights against it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He's not just saying, great, let's get divorced. He's saying, I don't want to know. He says they can reconcile. We can figure it out. He doesn't know the whole story here, though. So she asks for a court order freezing their assets at the time. And but friends say Mark kept hoping that he and Flo would stay together.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But a friend of theirs said, quote, Mark told her he was going to get custody of the children. He was going to get the house. She would get no child support and little alimony. So she felt very threatened. And one of her relatives said she told me that she would live in a box before she let the kids go.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's crazy and that's funny. So that's where it comes from. What we don't do, what we never do, is we never make fun of the victims or the victims' families.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And another friend said that she said, I don't want to have to do it, but if he tries to take the kids from me and the house, I'm going to have to get nasty about the divorce.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Which, yeah, I'm going to have to bring up that he's an alcoholic and a gambler and he did this. In any marriage that's been together for over, what is this, 13 years or something they've been married, there's plenty of dirt that you could all fling at each other.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Everybody's got mud. Yeah, the 13-year relationship of every kind. You could bring up a few occasions where that person did not act in the best...
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
For anybody, that's what I mean. Just human being is interacting is how it is. So Tuesday, October 21st, 2003. Okay, there is a divorce hearing. So this is one of the initial hearings. As you know, this takes many, many times of going to court.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It is a little more in both money and your soul. Just chipping away at it all. Like an ice sculpture. Making an ice sculpture of an angry person. So Flo insisted she would fight to keep the boys. Mark...
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
had begged her not to um she demanded the release of all the records of mark's gambling debts and drug addictions and to be put into the case oh and he obviously said no i don't want that yeah not good so obviously they still live together so they're literally driving together to the court to go into court sit at separate tables and argue and then drive back to the same house together
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This asshole. Yeah, you want that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Real simple. That's how that goes. So if you think that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, we might not be for you, but give it a shot. I think maybe we are for you. So either way, no complaining later. That said, I think it's time to sit back, everybody. Let's all clear the lungs here. Let's arms to the sky.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So, no, they're still at home. Flo said to a bunch of friends, this was like the worst week of her life. Just so stressful. It's horrifying. Her friend Susan said, she said, I don't want to talk about it in detail, but I was very upset. And she also said, quote, I've been crying on the bathroom floor for the past two nights. That's not good. That's not good.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This week in Arcadia Township, Michigan, when a woman is found floating face down in a lake, it makes everybody wonder, was this just a tragic accident, a sad suicide, or one of the coldest murders you could possibly commit? Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Her friend said she said they'd been, you know, warring all week. Then there's a guy named Glenn Stark, just like the guy who started the lumber mill. Stark, Glenn Stark. Now, he is Mark's best friend. And he's got some more role in this we'll talk about, but he's Mark's best friend. And Glenn said she said Mark had become increasingly erratic and unpredictable and withdrawn.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And Flo also told Glenn Stark that she had spent that whole week locked in the bathroom crying. And Glenn said she said he was exhibiting Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde behavior.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You never know. And that's true, too. A major life change like that right after getting out of five months of rehab is a... That's crazy. That's a wild break, yeah. I think when you get out of rehab, they tell you, don't change anything for a while. Don't get a divorce. No. If you smoke cigarettes, keep smoking them. If you fucking eat candy, keep eating it. Just... Drink twice as much.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Just don't do drugs. Now, Mark described Glenn Stark as his best friend. As a matter of fact, the night before the divorce hearing, Glenn spent the night at their house. He slept over that night. I don't know why adults are sleeping at other adults' houses, but that's fine. Now, the thing is, Stark has way more involvement in this than just being Mark's best friend.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He's also been having a secret affair with Flo for the last two years.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
glenn you are a scumbag mark you're a tool but glenn you're a fucking scumbag yeah that's not cool at all really fucked up that's you can't you can't fuck your best friend's wife nope i think that's that's like rule one right yeah that's rule one i think it's a commandment for christ's sake guess what i will never do i'll never fuck the girl that you love that's one of the few rules that's like a social rule and a commandment all in one it's all bad
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You don't have to say it. You just go, you scumbag.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Totally. I'd be the last guy to fuck your wife, probably. That's what you're supposed to do.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Ongoing. Started out with a big email exchange back and forth, and they ended up having sex four or five times over this period. The last time they had sex up to this point was about a few days before the divorce hearing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Let's all shout. And give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We're going to Michigan this week. Oh, yeah. Where we will be this year in Grand Rapids. I think that's already sold out or damn close to it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
While he was still there. No, while he was in rehab, that happened too. But the last time they hooked up was just like a few days before this divorce hearing, which is six months after he got out of rehab. So, yeah, that's that's he used to be their neighbor.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he said they were having what he called a discreet affair, exchanging intimate emails for two years, which is a new thing in the late 90s. You could do have an email affair and, you know, having sex a few times there, four or five times. Now, we don't think Mark knew about the affair. No. No.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Well, the fact that he invited Glenn to stay at his house the night before the divorce proceedings makes me think he probably doesn't know about the affair. Just you know what I mean? I don't think he knows. I can't imagine he does. So and they asked Stark later on Glenn about this. And Glenn Stark said, I asked Mark if he was uncomfortable with me being there, I guess, because they were fighting.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And if he preferred that I stayed somewhere else. And he replied that, no, he wasn't angry with me being there. I wasn't the one who was divorcing him. So I don't think he knows about this affair at all. No clue.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, but it's also, Mark has no fucking idea this is going on. Wow. So the day after the hearing, this is a Wednesday, October 22nd of 2003, a neighbor found Flo kneeling in her garden crying. which is sad. This is Ronald Loeb. He said, quote, I said, hi, Flo. How are you? What a dumb question. I'm kneeling in a garden crying. How do you think I am? Great.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
How often do you cry in your yard is my response if I'm her.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This is wild. Flo, how are you? And she looked up at me, and she was crying, and she said, not very well.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
As I say, should have followed it up with, obviously, dickhead.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Can I help? Are you okay? Are you okay is all right. Are you okay?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Are you bleeding? Yeah. Well, is this the beginning, middle, or end of this crying fit? Are you okay? How close to down are you? Yeah. Well, that means, like, are you coming down? Are you going to be all right in a minute? You can talk about it. Do you need a minute to just cry it out? Do you have to, like, hug somebody and punch them on the shoulder? Like, what do you got? What do you need?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Did you twist a knee or an ankle?
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Let me know. Please. I have band-aids and booze. I don't know which one to give you. So he said, she told me that they were going up north and that she did not want to go and that she was afraid to go up north. Now, what he did is it's October 24th is a Friday of 2003. He made reservations to go up to the Watervale Inn because they go up every single year, their whole relationship.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Not really plugging it at this point. This is Arcadia Township, Michigan.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's a tradition. They go up there. They stay in the cottages that we talked about. People go, why did they put that review in there? Gee, I wonder why. I'm telling you, this is why. Now I don't have to explain Watervale in the middle of a fucking murder investigation or in the middle of a murder story. So yeah, they're going up. They stay in one of these cottages. They do it every year.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. Well, yeah. Take the house and the kids. Well, I mean, yeah, I don't know. That's that's obviously they're going back and forth, threatening each other here. So they stay at the Watervale Inn, which is on Herring Lake. And Flo told a few people that she had some issues about going. And even Mark said, I'm sure she had reservations about going.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I had reservations about going, you know, but we were dedicated to the kids.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No, it's not. It's northern Michigan, but not the UP. It's right on the lake up in northwestern Michigan. Yeah, but it's in the regular part. And it's not the other Arcadia Township. Michigan, listen, we're supposed to have one town name per state. You can't have two Smith towns in the same state.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So that's how it is. He said things seemed fine when they got in the car to drive up there. They listened to music and it's a four hour drive. So if there's a lot of beef, it's going to come out in a four hour drive. But these two, I don't know. I think maybe these two have kind of trained themselves to be in a completely different mode around the kids.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, that could be what's happened. Or like I said, they could be trying to put a good face on it. Or they could be just, you know, who knows.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'm terrible at that. I can't do that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
We're going to fucking clear this up. We're going to clear this up or not clear it up, but we're not going to let it linger.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very unhealthy, I think, is what a therapist would tell you.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I think you've probably had that one talked about a couple of times, probably.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So, yeah, they're in the car. They're doing this. Mark said the colors were pretty to look at on the way up because it's October driving through the woods in Michigan. So beautiful. He said the kids were having a ball. It couldn't have been better. They went to dinner at a local restaurant called, I hope it's Dingy's and not Dingy's. I hope it's Dingy's.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's still, yeah, Dingy's sounds disgusting. Then they went back to their cottage after a dinner at Dingy's, which is weird because the inn has dinner.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So I don't know if they just wanted to have, maybe it's a, maybe it's fancier and the kids, they want to just get them some chicken strips or something.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they got that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yes, only beer, no wine. We got wine. We got white and red. Which one do you want? It's the big bottle of each back there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's just white Carlo Rossi with food coloring in it. The gallon.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Shut up. It's fine. So what? It's got fucking strawberry Kool-Aid in it. Relax.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's pretty good. So they stay at one of the cottages called the Mary Ellen. That's the cottage. All the cottages have names.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Like boats. And it's just a few hundred yards from the lake, and it's...
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
idyllic you know it's idyllic it's a nice place and that's it was a favorite spot for people to go would be to have a glass of wine and watch the evening sunsets on the boat deck which is also there fuck it faces the sunset yeah and by the way being late october in michigan this place does not have as many people that would be here in mid-august water's too cold water's too cold this is definitely a different type of people like the the boat deck isn't crowded with people at the end of the night it's you want to go have a glass of wine jeans on the lake that's great
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They have two Arcadia townships in the same goddamn state, which is a – one's in Lapeer County, I guess, down in kind of central south. L-A-P-E-E-R. Lapeer.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Fucking hoodie on the lake. Shit. Yeah. A hoodie and some wine on the lake. That sounds amazing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Dry, chilly, something nice in my hand to drink and eat. And I'm a happy fucking guy. Smoke a joint out there. I'll be a real. There it is. I'm thrilled. So the boys settle in to watch a movie. They put a movie on for the kids in the, because they're like 10 and 7. Yeah. If you have a small little cottage, you can throw a movie on and they'll be all right for a couple hours.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's cars or one of the toy stories. I think two just came out. So year before, I think so. So they sit to watch a movie and Mark and Flo went down to the boat deck to have adult talk. So you don't have to sit there with fucking Pixar voices blasting in the background while you're trying to have serious conversation.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. We don't need Tim Allen here for this, okay? We just don't. So Flo and Mark sitting on the boat deck, and the boat deck is attached to the resort proper. There's a big building with the suites inside of it with the shared bathrooms, and so you walk from your cottage up to that to sit on the boat deck. Right. So they're up there. It's late evening, 8, 9 o'clock.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
About 9 p.m., a fisherman named Fred Oeflin, O-E-F is the way his name starts. That's tough. Oeflin, he landed his boat in, it's dark, and he landed it right there at the shore. And he speaks to Florence and Mark, and he gets out of the boat, and he talks to them for a little while for some reason. I see a couple enjoying a private moment. Let me row up and talk to them. Let me go bother them.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Not Lapeer. I would have gotten – No. I know Pierre, I could pronounce that, but Lapeer County, I guess. I don't know, Lapeer, whatever the hell it is. This is two hours and 15 minutes to Grand Rapids, where we will be in September. Two hours to our last Michigan episode, Crockery Township, Michigan, which was the Battle of the Neighbors, which was wild stuff. I love those.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. You see two people in the dark with glasses of wine. You're going to not go up to them, right?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's just a motor, but it's not even a big boat, though. Oh, really? It's just a fucking motor, like an outboard. Yeah. Like a little bass fishing boat, basically, like one of those.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he hung out with them for a little while, Fred, and talked to them, and then he left in his motorboat. They did have a conversation with him. He said it was pitch black outside, Fred says. And he told the Ungers that he was about to take his boat across the lake. And this is the middle of nowhere. It's fucking black as night, as literally.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So I guess he said, quote, she mentioned she wouldn't like to be out on the lake. She said, I'm afraid of the dark.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I wouldn't go out on that lake this late. I'm afraid of the dark, she said.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
If it's choppy, too, that's terrifying. So nobody, as Fred said, nobody, he didn't hear any arguing amongst the couple of Mark and Flo. He didn't hear anything suspicious, anything like that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And here her relatives back her up. Her sister, I believe, said she was afraid of the dark. And another relative said she was very afraid of the dark. I reiterate what they say and add very.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, Flo's father, Harold, said that she has been afraid of the dark for as long as he could remember. He said, quote, when she was a little child, she said, hold me, daddy, I'm scared of the dark. And now, 30 years later, still scared of the dark. So, that's the way it is.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Outside? In the backyard, man. On the side of the house.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You have tons of lights out there. It's bright as day out there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Flick the goddamn light switch on.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Don't look there. Look where you can see, which is right to the garbage can. Throw it. I'm not asking you to go exploring back there and find a lost civilization.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And an owl isn't going to get you.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, yeah. It's not going to want any piece of you.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's funny. So 9.30 p.m. here, Mark says he walks back to the couple's cottage, which is about 100 yards away, to put Max and Tyler to bed. Okay. So there we go. They can't even stay up late on vacation. Rough.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
For some reason, I love the ones where it's two neighbors fighting for years and then there's a showdown. For some reason, those really interest me. I don't know why.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Rough. So he said, quote, Flo was very comfortable on that deck. She wasn't ready to come in yet, I guess. So that's why he did it. So he said he spent about 15 minutes with the boys, and when he went back to the boat deck, Flo was gone. Really? Really. Couldn't find her now. He walked 100 yards, sat 15 minutes, walked 100 yards, and she's gone.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he saw a light on at Maggie and Lynn Duncan's house, who are one of the property owners here. I assume these are the people who aren't nice.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Not very nice, that guy said. And he said he figured that she was there. So she probably because they know these people because they've gone there a bunch of times.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he's like, all right, she probably went over there. The lights on. That's the only thing that would make sense. So he said he didn't go over there and look. He just figured she was there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He literally said he thought maybe she needed some privacy with him. Maybe she was talking shit about him. So he then said, you know, he said that she must have visited the neighbor. I don't know. And even he said, quote, this is Mark. It wasn't anything earth shattering that made me not go up there to the neighbor's house. I just thought about it and said, oh, she's up there. She's fine.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And I went back to the cottage. So he said he went back to the cottage, put a movie on and fell asleep. So he woke up right about daybreak the next morning and noticed she wasn't there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No Flo. I got no Flo. So he called up Lynn and Maggie Duncan and said, you know, hey, what up with Flo? Did you see her?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Now, the Duncans said, this is their accounting of that. They said that he said, quote, this is Mark. Flo hasn't come home all night. And they said that he said this through sobs. He was sobbing on the phone.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So, Lynn Duncan told Unger he and his wife would look for her. He said, well, we can go out and help you look for her. Duncan said, quote, I thought, why the hell would he be crying and not looking for her himself? Which is a good question and also why people say you're not very nice on a review, maybe. That's a little too direct for some people. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This is why. Just mind your business.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'll help you, but Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he, the guy said, Mark told him, quote, this is the owner talking about Mark. He said he was going to check around the inn to see if she had taken another room. He didn't explain that to us. He had indicated that she might be suicidal.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. So Lynn, the way he described the call, he said it just sounded like somebody in tears saying, this is Mark and my wife hasn't come home all night. So they're like, all right, well, where the fuck is she? So they look here out the door, Maggie and Lynn, Margaret and Lynn, and they look out the door. They stood in their living room and looked at the deck through their sliding glass doors.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Stick to yourself. Next thing you know, we'll be having a gunfight in the yard. We'll be dueling in the yard in front of the fucking ribs. So this is in Manistee County, area code 231. And there is no motto, but I'm going to give you what it says on the website about this place. This is kind of what their whole deal here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And Maggie Duncan noticed that one of the wooden lounge chairs, lounge chairs, On the deck had been moved from one corner of the deck to another corner of the deck.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They were like, that's interesting. Yeah. So they got dressed and walked out toward the chair to see what was going on there. So they're going to look and they they go their separate ways. He Mark says he's going to go look over here. They're going to go look out on the deck and wherever they're going to look. So they walk out there. This is Lynn Duncan and Maggie Duncan. Maggie gets there first.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
She peeks over the edge of the deck. Now, the deck here, the way it goes is there's a deck, and then there's a concrete landing below the deck, like another sidewalk, and then there's the water. There's the lake right there. So that's the way it goes. She said she peeked over the edge, Maggie did, and she saw Florence.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Not good. No? Yeah. And the concrete's 12 feet below the deck. 12 feet of drop, concrete slab, then the water. So she said that her feet were closest to a concrete breaker wall and her head pointed toward the center of the lake. And she is on her face, you know, bobbing up and down in the, you know, like a dead man float. They're not good.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So Lynn Duncan, the husband here, said that he was not far behind. He said he saw the body in the water and picked up the blue blanket that Flo had had with her that was on the deck and moved it. I guess the blanket was on the cement slab below the deck down there. So he picked it up and moved it. He said when he picked it up, there was a puddle of blood under it. Oh, he's like, oh, shit.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Okay. And he said that now Duncan is crying at this point.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he said that Mark screamed and took off running directly to where the body was in the lake.
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#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. He jumped in the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Mark does. Duncan waited in, followed him, but walking. He said the two men hugged and cried together at the lake's edge, just sitting there, you know, having a good cry. Fuck dignity. Fuck that. Now the police arrived and the Duncans leave the resort after they give their statement. They take off. Like, I don't really want to be here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Since the 1900s, the climate tempered by the cool waters of Lake Michigan has made Arcadia a refuge for those seeking relief from the pressures and confinement of the metropolitan areas of southern Michigan and neighboring states. They're telling you, can't take it anymore. Come here for a weekend. That's what it is. It's just all like a little resort lake town.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You know, I don't want to be here during corpse season. It's not as good. It's not as fun. muskies better man um so lynn duncan here the husband said i looked down there and i could see her in the water and after just after a minute or so i started to cry my first reaction was suicide really Yeah, that's right. And Lynn said, we have memories there that will never disappear, never.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And Maggie Duncan said, I'll carry that to my grave, finding this poor dead woman here. So Maggie calls 911, and they answer the phone, and she says, they say, 911, she says, yeah, I'm pretty upset. That's how she leaves it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, I'm pretty upset. Why is that? Well, I got the final Jeopardy wrong tonight, and I was beating my husband until that came up.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, yeah, there's a corpse in the water. That's what I was trying to tell you.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
These people are decent, it sounds like. So, yeah, she said, I'm pretty upset. They said, okay, well, what's your name? You know, let's start there. She says Maggie Duncan spells it out. She said, I believe there is a suicide or a drowning or something.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
is what she said so um that's what she says on 9-1-1 now here is mark as he ran into the water his statement about this he said i picked her up and put my arms underneath her and just lifted her up and there was blood that just started coming out and i just freaked and i just about dropped her all right and i just dropped her i mean i'm in the water with my wife who's just cold and bloody
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he said, I wasn't thinking. My whole life just ended right then. I wasn't thinking about anything. My whole world had ended right there. So like we said, the blanket now, that blue blanket that covered a blood puddle here, Mark tells at least one person in the days following this that he had retrieved the blanket after Duncan had already found the body in order to keep her warm.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he said, I grabbed the blanket to keep her warm, which makes no sense.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
She's dead. She's dead, and he didn't find the blanket or touch it. Duncan did. So it makes no sense why he would lie about that. I'm not sure.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So Lynn, the one that called the police, as his wife called the police, he ended up, like I said, telling Mark, and they had a good cry on the shoulder there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Lynn said, my first reaction, you think the best of the worst. But for him to go like that, well, you start to think other things. I'm not going to say what I think, but you come up with a conclusion and it's not pleasant. So that is some Midwestern shit right there. Listen. I pretty much thought this guy killed his wife, but, you know, it's not nice to say that, so you get it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he said that the thing that kept bothering him is he hadn't told Mark where the body was found. Right. He said, why would he run there? Lynn said he jumped in the water right next to her, and at that moment I looked around and said to myself, my God, he did it. How else would he know? That is wild.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He knew exactly where in Lake fucking, you know, whatever. Yeah, it's crazy. Or Lake Herring or whatever the hell it is. So the police arrive, obviously. Deputy Troy Packard responds. And he said, well, all that's reported to me is there's a body in the water. And you're thinking, was it an accident? Was it a suicide? Was it murder?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You know, he goes, I don't know what the hell I'm walking into here. He's the first officer. He said he sensed something was off the minute he looked over the boat deck railing. He said, I noticed the top railing was broken, fractured out. Okay. So like the railing that keeps you on there. They're wooden on these boat decks. Apparently it was busted out.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He said, next I noticed a rather large pool of blood. And he said that he calls 911, okay? Because cops, I guess, don't call 911. I don't know if they have radios on them or something. I don't think they go back to like the police station.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This is where they played pool in the great outdoors and stuck that pool cue between the chick's legs and she flung it across the... Yeah, that's where we are here, except Michigan and not Wisconsin.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's what I mean. So he calls 911 and said, better call out the troops on this one. And the operator says, oh, yeah? And he said, yeah, I got blood. And the operator says, oh, Jesus, are you kidding? No. No, I'm pretty upset. Cop calling 911 for backup, you fucking idiot. No, I'm not kidding. He said, no, I'm not kidding. There's blood on the cement platform, and now she's in the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And the operator said, oh, God, I want less of a shocked reaction from my 911 operators, by the way. Right? I don't want to ever hear them go, oh, God, ever. No matter what it is, they go, okay, stay calm. You're the calm one.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Wow. Oh, God. Oh, God. That's following, oh, Jesus, are you kidding, which is even worse. So the cop responds. So how did the blood get from the cement platform before she got in the water? You know, that's what he said. He said on the tape. So investigators obviously start with the boathouse and they comb the whole scene. And it's a pretty it's a murder investigation.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You know, it's one of those things or a death investigation, I should say. On a wooden upper deck, a post was broken, and that was how the railing got broken. And then 12 feet below that on the platform is a bloodstain. Below that in shallow water is Flo's body. So, bink, bink, bink. The cop also said Mark Unger seemed evasive. He said he just kept on saying, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And I asked him, well, when was the last time you've seen Florence alive? I don't know. Every question's I don't know. He also watched Mark make a series of cell phone calls. He said he was frequently interrupted by call waiting. And he said, quote, he would click over. He would answer it, and then he would start trying to cry and moan. She's gone. I can't believe it in this great emotion.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Never a week because they leave, damn it. But Buck's going to be different. So even though he's not, he's leaving too. It's stupid. So dumb.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And then he'd go back to the other person, and he was all calm and fine again. He already went through all of that with that person. So he said it just didn't seem right for someone to be able to turn that on and off like that. It was wild. So a few hours, I mean, this is a, you know, it's going on past midnight. They're going into the scene just a few hours after this discovery of Flo's body.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Mark already had the family car packed up and ready to go.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He's ready to go. Well, weekend's about over. Jesus. Dinghy serves a hell of a late night meal. Let me tell you something. So he said that Mark just kept repeating, I just want to leave. I just want to leave. I just want to leave. So the deputy said, I found it peculiar because that's all he was saying. He just wanted to leave. And here's Florence still lying face down in the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You know, like, wouldn't you want to see how this works out at least a little bit?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's yeah, but it's fucking that's crazy. So they noticed that he had packed his vehicle and seemed eager to leave. So they obtained a search warrant quickly to search his vehicle and the interior of the cottage that he was in. So they recover among a bunch of things. But the main thing they find that's a little suspicious is they recover a pair of men's shoes from the vehicle.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
On one of the shoes is a white paint smear. And they said the white paint ends up being tested and is found to be chemically consistent with the white paint on the railing of the boathouse deck. So he got white paint from the boathouse deck on his shoe.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Exactly. That doesn't happen if you just accidentally rub it on there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. So that night, by the next evening... Mark's under a big cloud of suspicion, and the police have given Flo's parents temporary custody of the boys. Yeah, that's where we're at.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yes, and that's what he was trying to avoid, I think, which is interesting. So they said that when they questioned Unger, it appeared that he would suddenly try to cry and then change his demeanor, even when he was talking to the cops. He does this all the time.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The one cop said that Mark told him that he did not think his wife had committed suicide and that he did not try to lift her out of the water because she was, quote, all bloody. Interesting. Now enter the hairdresser. Okay. A new character into this thing here. This is Flo's hairdresser for years back in town. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, this is the whole reason I didn't want to go out with you. That was the point. She's trying to tell him and he's like, yeah, but I could finger you now. It's like, no, you're not getting it. Yeah, but show me your tits. Yeah, that's all he's asking for. It's real weird. So history of this town. They organized a township in 1870 and then founded the village of Arcadia in 1880.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
She said that, um, I told him he had told the police and most of his friends when he returned from all of this, cause he tells her, he calls everybody and says, Hey, Flo's dead.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So they all go, what happened? And he tells them, uh, He tells the hairdresser or he tells most everybody else that he went back. Like we said, he went back, put the kids to bed, came back 15 minutes later. She's gone. He told the hairdresser, though, that he put the children in bed and had returned to the deck and she was there. On the deck. And then he told her that Florence was still there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
She was fine. So I just went back up to the house and she never came home. So that's very different stories that he's telling people.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
There. And that could be a confusion on the hairdresser's part. Who knows? Hairdresser Tesha Hanks of Palazzo Hair Salon, you know, in Royal Oak over here. Big hair. Oh, you know it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
you fucking know been her hairdresser for 10 years knows how to knows how to fucking tease your hair out here so um she said that a friend had told her that florence was dead so she called florence's phone to find out if it was true and mark answered the phone and gave her an account that wasn't the same account he told the police oh that's like i said he said he told the
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He told everyone, including the cops, he went back to the cottage, came back, she was gone.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He told her, I went back, came back, she was there, and I said goodnight and walked away, and then she was gone. So very different story. So they have a funeral for her. Hundreds of people attend. She's very well liked. And I guess if you're working like a bank doing mortgage stuff, you probably know a lot of people too.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You're a drunk driver and took out an eight-year-old on a bicycle on the way through it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Not many. Yeah, Manny. So, yeah, she'll have this, though. And it's her hometown, too. And so, I mean, she's grew up there and everything. Now, within days of this death, there's the funeral. And then Mark, he hasn't been charged with anything. They've just asked him a couple of questions. He hires a big time defense attorney now. Really? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
A guy named Bob Harrison who's handled over 100 murder cases.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
We'll get to that in about two seconds here. Yeah, because they're going through all that because they really have to. The medical exam takes a few days on her. There's a lot to the water fucks things up, too. So it's tough. He said Bob Harrison, defense attorney, said, quote, I had a client in a world of trouble.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he said, well, whether it's going to be good enough or not, you'll get everything I've got. That's what he says. Him as a lawyer. I'll throw it on the floor on the table for you.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Now, Mark and his lawyer decide to set up a polygraph test. Now, this polygraph test is not set up. It's not at the police station with a police officer doing the polygraph test. Now, this is a private polygraph test he's going to take.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
There's Arcadia Township. Then within that is Arcadia, which is inside of Arcadia Township. Ridiculous. So the early history, they say, is dominated by Henry Stark, who was a Milwaukeean who established a lumber mill and made a shitload of money.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
With the polygrapher, I was going to say. Is that a polygraph?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Polygrapher, I guess. Polygrapher sounds like he's got five wives, doesn't it? It doesn't sound right.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Sounds weird. So the polygrapher is a, they call a respected retired policeman. So a random polygrapher in there. So this is a private polygraph test, which means nothing because he could have taken it 20 times. There's no, they don't have to tell the cops that, oh, here's the results after 20 times.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Totally. So they said he passed that, passed that lie detector test with flying colors. Absolutely. Because it was paid by you. You paid a guy, yeah. You're not going to cut him a check after he says you're a fucking liar. Well, never mind then. Maybe I won't pay you.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No, I think you need kind of a third party who doesn't work for either person would probably be the best way to do that. So medical opinions here. Here we go. Doctor who performed Flo's autopsy cataloged her many bruises, broken hip, Internal injuries, fractured skull. Yeah. They think she pretty much fell on her head off of the dock onto the concrete. Yeah, head, hip, exactly.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's what they think. She fell like kind of on both. Slumped in, yeah. So he says she became unconscious the second she hit the concrete because her skull is fractured here. Now, another medical examiner here, an Oakland County medical examiner, after reviewing the case, he concluded Florence died of drowning and classified her death as homicide.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Now, the way he puts this, it's weird because they don't know whether it's drowning, whether it's her injuries, what it is. But he said bodies do not walk into the water and bodies do not bounce. That's what he said. He said there is no possibility for her to take herself into the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You can't hit the ground, fracture your skull and hip, and then throw yourself off the fucking shore into the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Unconscious. So she drowned.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. He said that she would have been injured so badly by the impact to her head that she would have been rendered instantaneously unconscious. No way to get into the water from that. So they said, quote, the dead woman had plunged 12 feet to a concrete apron, which was stained with blood, yet somehow had moved over a break wall nearly three feet away and wound up in the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
also established a church and all that kind of shit here uh it was a big lumber town through the early 1900s uh in 1906 that guy's lumber town uh lumber mill henry stark it burned to the ground oh of course and as everything did save the planet lumberman and mr stark you know what else lumber is flammable that's the problem very flammable
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Unlikely, basically. And the one doctor said, I have a hard time understanding how she got in the water and was emphatic that Flo was immobile on the cement where she was placed in the water and drowned.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. So there is a prosecutor here that asked doctor based on these injuries and based on the physical condition that she would have had as a result of these injuries, would she have been capable of getting into the water on her own? And he said, absolutely not. And he said the doctor said she didn't go into the water being unconscious. She could have only been placed into the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You can't go into the water. You're unconscious. Right. Another doctor here, Paul McKeever of the University of Michigan, looked at the samples of Flo's brain tissue, performed several tests and said one showed proof of a brain injury that could only have appeared if Flo had been alive on the cement a very long time. So fell on there and then the brain was dying or whatever.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This doctor said an hour and a half. She would have been alive for an hour and a half.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And that's what they're saying. So they said, and if she was not capable of getting into the water on her own power, somebody must have put her into the water and they had a long time to think about it before they did it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They said it's late October. There's nobody out but them.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And it's late, getting late at night, you know. So, yeah, I think a lot of people here get up early to get out on the lake and shit like that if they're going to do anything. Medical witnesses said that they did. The problem is they have different medical examiners who don't agree on the exact cause of her death. That's the problem.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They all agree there's no way she could have gotten to the water on her own if she hit the concrete first. That they agree on. But some people say it was brain injuries and some people say it was drowning.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yep. And that's the district attorney's stance here is no matter what the fuck caused it, she didn't do it on her own. Right. That would have been impossible. By the way, it's Lower Herring Lake is the lake that she's in, just to be clear here. So after two days, the preliminary exam was postponed and the medical examiners said that Florence's death was a homicide, not an accident.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But like I said, one said drama, one said drowning. So the now his lawyer is going to ask a judge later on to throw out one of the conclusions, which is the critical evidence that prosecutors need to prove her death was murder, basically. So they want that thrown out and he'll get it thrown out for a minute, too. But then it'll come back in.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He said the defense says that the Dragovich, he's the guy who says she drowned. said that his statement was neither generally accepted in the relative relevant scientific community or forensic pathologist, nor was it based on vetted research. And they told this medical examiner about that. They said, what do you say about this? And he said, no judicial ruling can change the facts.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Doesn't matter what you rule. This is what happened.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You know, you could make a law that says there's no gravity, but you're still going to stand on the ground.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, and put a pencil down and it won't float away. There's a reason for that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So they said that the Ungers, now they also find out that the Ungers had a life insurance policies naming each other as beneficiaries and that Mark stood to collect about 750 grand from this death as well.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's a good chunk. So months pass. Nothing happens. It seems stalled. They don't charge Mark with anything. And at this point, he's fighting to get custody of his sons back. That's what he wants. He's ignoring the other thing. And Flo's parents don't want to give it to him because they think he killed their daughter. So makes sense.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Claire, Florence's mother, said this is not about the custody of children. This is about a murder investigation. Finish the murder investigation. And then we'll fucking talk about it. The judge refuses to give him custody. He refused because he was suspected in the death.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It doesn't burn quite as easy. So it was replaced by the Arcadia Furniture Factory. Now, there are no reviews of the town proper because it's a small town, but there are reviews of the place that we're going to talk about where this murder took place this week or where the death happened here, which is the Watervale Inn. It's right on the lake. It's like the most famous inn around here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I guess it was a they called it a by the way, he the judge chastised attorneys for both sides for their increasingly contentious and emotional public battle. By the way, that's hilarious. You two are both embarrassing. I just want to let you know.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, I'm tired of all of your shit here. So they were asking the judge to reunite the boys with their father until a date is set for the neglect trial. Because they're saying, well, he neglects his kids because he gambles and drinks and does Vicodin and killed their mother. So, you know, all those different things. The defense was critical of prosecution.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
lawyers for filing a document that outlined the prosecution's theory of the case, which he contended was an attempt to poison public opinion against his client. He said that is a kind of a prejudice. That kind of prejudice is difficult, if not impossible, to overcome public sentiment.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So the lawyer told the judge that his client was a loving father who made his kids meals, helped them with their homework and sang to his children at night. The lawyer said, you have everything you need. You know everything you need to know to place the boys with their father.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
While his lawyer is saying this in court, fucking Flo's mom, Claire, is clutching a picture of Flo and shaking her head in disgust going, no, no, no. Killed my daughter. So the judge turned down a request that would have returned custody to Mark. And instead, she agreed to allow Unger some increased visitation time. But not before telling the attorneys they've acted shittily in their court here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The judge said that verbal shots the two sides were taking at each other were getting back to the boys. And she said she would not stop the attorneys from talking to the media, but suggested they maybe used a little more discretion to not get it back to the kids. They said this is a think about the effect your statement is having on those two little boys.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And the prosecutor said, we believe Mr. Unger did kill his wife and we believe it would have been an injustice to return the boys to their father. So May 2004 comes around. This has been over six months now. Finally, Mark is charged with a crime here. He's going to be charged with murder. Yeah, there's some first it's first degree.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Then they say it's second degree because there's a hearing about it. And then it's returned to first degree later on.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's pretty much it. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. And the fact that unless a stranger came and said, I'll just dump this unconscious woman in the water, which would be a real weird thing to do. I'm thinking there's only one person on that whole property with the motivation to throw this lady in the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's the thing, though. That's right. They don't have... I don't like that. That's tough. And a smear of a paint smear. That, I mean, if you've had a couple of beers, you could scrape your shoe against a deck and get white paint on it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You know what I mean? Yeah, I tell you, maybe he's doing that. Who the hell knows?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Or maybe they're sitting there talking and he's nervously kicking his fucking foot against the side of the thing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Totally. So I tend to kind of get a little jumpy in situations like that. Oh, I shuffle a lot. Yeah, big time. So they picked him up as he was pulling away from his house. Oh. They got him. They pulled out of his driveway. They said an hour later, his red Ford Expedition remained in the driveway with an open briefcase on the front passenger seat, left it behind.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So they claim Mark and obviously that he pushed her off and that's what happened. And so the prosecutor here, this is Donna Pendergrast. She leads the prosecution. Her dad was a Detroit cop. So she's all about this shit. She has been called Michigan's best prosecutor at the time. This was her 93rd murder case.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's built in, you know, the 1920s or something. It's very old. And so they say it features 14 cottages, which are suites of rooms. So they have cottages separate. Then they have a main building with suites inside of that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. And the defense guy has over 100 murder cases.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Fucking Michigan. Yeah. Michigan. A lot of murders there. It's a good one. So when she is sitting down with Chris Hansen later on, Chris Hansen said, how many have you won? And she said, all but two. Oh, ninety one and two or ninety or ninety and two at this point, I guess. And they said, that's a pretty good record. And she said, I've been lucky. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So she also here, she had a kind of a work cut out for her here because this isn't the strongest case. Hansen said to her, there's no DNA evidence. And she said, no, they said there's no fingerprints. And she said, no, but we had circumstantial evidence and we believed what was admissible as evidence that we could present a pretty clear picture for the jury. So let's give it a shot.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This trial is going to be, by the way, it doesn't take place until May of 2006. Wow. Actually, late April, because it's a nine-week trial. Nine weeks. That's over two months.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That is really rare for a trial to be that long. I mean, you've got to have money to pay lawyers to do all that, present that kind of evidence. That's... He is spending that $750 right now. So the jury is six men, six women. And the trial has mountains of conflicting bullshit on both sides. Pathology reports are the main deal for the prosecution.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And a recreation of Mark's walk down to the water that morning. They did a wooden mock-up of the deck railing. And all that kind of thing here. So it's it's a big trial. It's taking place in the next county over from this county. They move change a venue. So it's a huge trial in a tiny county. It's one of those which are always a mess because like they don't have the proper media accommodations.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's tough. So the prosecutors say, obviously, pushed his wife off a boathouse deck and we know the rest here. They told the court that Mark Unger could not stand the thought that his wife wanted to divorce him and that she had had an affair with his best friend. Now, we don't have any evidence that he knew about that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's pretty cool. And the historic inn where breakfast and dinner are served daily. It is situated on two lakes, this inn. So it's a very, very good vacation spot, essentially.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Well, yeah, in discovery he would have learned that when the prosecutors show, yeah. But that's what's fucking weird is that unless he found out in the three days in between when this guy slept at their house and when they went on this trip, I don't know why she would have told him about that before a divorce. Why would you give—
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
unless yeah you wouldn't give her any you wouldn't give him any ammunition in the divorce because an affair now it's an yeah he's gambling and doing this but she's having affairs the thing is he's trying to he's trying to say we can reconcile she may say well no because your best friend's dippity doing so no but that's not worth throwing your whole divorce case away i don't think just to get a shot in because she she's been wanting like planning this out for six years and that would just fuck her entire divorce case i would imagine
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I don't think she was planning on bringing up that she was banging dude's best friend during the divorce of why she's such a great lady and he's a piece of shit. So it's fucked. Real fucked. So the prosecutor said, well, in this case, it was pretty clear that this woman was not just scared but terrified of the dark.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And the bottom line is, if you believe that she's truly afraid of the dark, then she simply would not have stayed out on that deck where it's pitch black. Then his story failed from the get go. They say they say they'd say a frightened woman, an escalating custody fight, betrayal and tears and all this shit. Prosecutors told the jury that pressure boiled over on the deck.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And they argued and maybe Mark snapped. Maybe he pushed Flo. Maybe he just shoved her. And then he went back to the cottage. But they don't know. That's all circumstantial speculation. They said, you know, that's tough. They said the problem is they have to show that she didn't die from an accidental fall, but that he whether he.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And they have like a big boat dock where people can go out and a big deck where they go out and drink wine and look at the lake and water town. Yeah, it's really nice. This place has four point eight stars on Google as well.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
shoved her off the deck or not, he did put her in the water where she drowned. So that's what they have to prove. Yeah. They said the only way the injury like this can occur is the result of blunt force. Looking down on the spinal cord, which we had to cut off to remove the brain. That sounds bad.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So the defense lawyer said that the rail around the boathouse was old and rotten and gave way when she leaned against it and she fell. Open and shut case. The railing. Really is the culprit here. They produced several expert witnesses to disprove the prosecution's theory. All circumstantial, obviously, here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They also the defense tells the jurors that the police botched the investigation, starting when the resort owner called 911. She mentioned suicide. The dispatcher passed it along to the officer at the scene. But they said the officers got caught up looking into suicide and missed the real evidence pointing to an accident. That's what it is. So, I mean, obviously they missed it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The defense dismissed the motion that there was anything sinister about Mark running to the spot that Flo lay dead. They said, of course, Mark ran right there. The boat deck was the last place he'd seen her, and he just watched Lynn Duncan walk up from the exact spot. But he didn't because it's pitch black out. You don't see him walking up from that spot. That's the thing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You're not going to see him. And it's a good distance.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No. If you did, then you would have been there. Yeah, no. So Mark insists that he didn't learn about the affair until months after Flo's death during pretrial hearings when they got discovery. He said so it couldn't have been a motive if he didn't know about it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So the defense still has to deal with the prosecution's medical case, though, and the blood stain on the cement is a pretty hard piece of evidence. It's impossible to jump into the water from the boat deck.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's really good at eighty five reviews. Here is one for Mary Jean. Five stars. Love this place. Old school. Cool at its finest.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
God damn it. They're going to bring up later on a a retired engineering professor is going to present a computer animated group of scenarios that could happen when they do this at trial. It is so ridiculous and funny. They shouldn't allow these computer mockups, by the way. I think it's prejudicial. It really is fun to watch a cartoon of murder, though. It's so silly. It's so silly.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But I think it's also prejudicial because you can't just display a theory and now people are watching it and thinking it's real. I don't like that at all. So anyway, he presented all these scenarios and the prosecutors dismissed this all as cartoons.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
What's going on here? Yeah, they just killed Kenny. This is ridiculous. So the prosecutors accused the defense of exaggerating about the deck, saying it had been there for decades without anyone suffering a fatal fall. So probably isn't that bad. And they'd been there 10 times, too, and she never fell off it before.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
charming cottages beautiful setting be sure to do the mount baldy hike and walk back along the water the way you get to run down the dunes that's a long way it's a long walk on the beach be prepared okay that's what you want to know what mount baldy means because there's like three thousand there's a lot of them at west there's a bunch of them too yeah yeah i think idaho has one i want to say utah or somewhere has one there's a lot of them arizona has like six
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The other doctor, Dr. Dragovich, said the Oakland County medical examiner, he's another one here, he said that this evidence, such as fluid in Florence's lungs, suggested she drowned. So that's that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That would be someone murdered her. That's the thing. So this is not an accident. Somebody did this. But who? Well, if you look at it logically, I doubt that Fred and the fucking motorboat came back and killed her for no reason. So there's one guy with any motives. I think that's the whole point here. So. Now they argue about how Flo is portrayed in court.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Apparently, the prosecution was arguing that the defense counsel had painted Flo as a, quote, shopping crazed adulteress. So they said that the defense counsel never argued that the victim was a shopping crazed adulteress. It was actually the prosecution. That was their way of summing up what they were saying about her. So the judge said you shouldn't to the defense.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You shouldn't be saying that shit and you shouldn't be saying shopping crazed adulteress because they never said that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, now you're being the inflammatory ones to the person you're trying to keep nice. So it doesn't work here. And there's people talking about fake tears of Mark. Donna Pendergrass, the prosecutor, started to build her case by asking witnesses there that day to describe Mark's demeanor.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And one person here, they said, so you indicated he had kind of going between crying and being matter-of-fact, right? And this guy said, yeah, I'd offer him Kleenexes, and he'd take them, but I never saw a tear.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Not great. And another woman who was there named Fran said, he got noticeably upset, sobbing very loudly, but I never noticed any tears.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No. Whenever you see someone fake cry, and I don't mean when they cry and no tears come out, that's not good.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That is not good. It's a physiological thing that happens. You get watery. Your nose runs. You get red. There's a bunch of stuff that happens. Just going, it's not crying.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
yeah your thoughts and such are what make you cry yeah and if you've got no thoughts and sadness then you don't cry you don't cry that's why when you watch a movie and an actor's crying and they have fucking snot coming out of their nose you're like fucking a you are killing that shit you know that person's a psycho Yeah. Standing there with one tear coming down their eye.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You're like, get the fuck out of here. Who put that vizine drop in your eye for that shot?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That ain't real. Yeah. Murder martini for you. So, Lynn Duncan, one of the couple who owns the place, the husband here, they asked him, had you told or given... The defendant any information whatsoever about where Florence's body was. And he said, no, none. Just said she's in the water. He went a running. Now, the cross examination of Lynn Duncan, the defense attorney says.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And so after you spoke with Mark, he ran back exactly the way you had come down to the front of the boathouse. And he said, yes, exactly. And they said exact path you had just traveled. And he said, yes. And the defense was like, see, must have seen him coming. That's what happened. Yeah. Now, Glenn Stark has to come up and testify.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, man. He is the dick in the ointment jar here. This is not good.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's why he's putting his dick in there. Lube it up. So they asked him, the defense asked him, did you have sex in the Unger home? And Glenn said no. Uh-huh. And they said, did you go somewhere else and have sex? And he said, yes. And they said, do you know where Mark was at the time that you took his wife to have sex with her? Oh, boy. And he said, I do not.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Maybe it's just there's nothing on top of it, so they called it Mount Baldy. I don't know. Or there's a guy named Baldy who was climbing all the mountains but had no hair.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That sounds terrible here, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Never even thought of him. Just really was thinking about his wife's sweet, sweet pussy. That's all I was thinking about. It's good.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Who's your best friend? Now, on a side note here, Mark on Dateline later talking about the affair. Okay. With him and Chris Hansen.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, man. So they said, he says to Mark, Glenn Stark, how do you describe him? And Mark says, my best friend was fucking my wife. How else do you describe him? That's how I describe him. The man who was betting my wife. Which is a great answer.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
ah jesus christ how else do you describe him that's how i describe him chris had that one locked and loaded and couldn't wait to spit it out and then there's chris says did you and he jumped hunger jumps back in and cuts him off still has having this thought and he says the guy who was patting me on the back saying you can get through this you can do this and he was sleeping with my wife
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Fingering her, patting her ass with the other. And they said, and did you know this before? And Unger said, oh, I had no idea. No idea. Her best friends didn't know about the affair. You know, so what? She's going to all of a sudden tell me? No, Flo would have never done that. And I do believe Flo would have never told him. No, it doesn't seem like it. Because it would fuck her divorce case up.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He had no hair, but he was great at mountain climbing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And that's what she was concentrating on. So another piece of evidence here the prosecution presents is a videotape. This is a reenaction of a recreation of Mark's route down to the water. It goes to show that basically he could not have seen where Flo's body was, so he couldn't have run right to it unless he knew where the fuck it was.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They're showing how dark it is out there and everything else. And they're like, you can't see hundreds of yards away in the dark. You just can. You know, the guy isn't a fucking human flashlight. So the last image on it was an inflatable female CPR dummy floating face down in the water. So the defense was pissed off about that, obviously. They're like, that's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But the prosecution said, that's what we got here. Okay. Now, Chris Hansen said at one point, asked the defense attorney later on, was there reasonable doubt in this case?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Tons. Patagonia up his ass. It's all over the place. And then finally, one star from Rick. The owners are not friendly. That's all.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And Bob Harrison, the defense attorney, said there was so much reasonable doubt you could climb on it. What a weird way to put that. It's a mountain. It's a mountain. He said you could walk on it. You could throw it. Well, if you could walk on it and climb on it, it sounds pretty heavy to throw, no? He said, if this case didn't contain reasonable doubt, the concept does not exist. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Very definition. So the defense attorney in the defense painted a very different picture of what happened. He said Mark Loveflow had no reason to kill her. Her death was a horrible, tragic accident. He said Mark just left his wife for a few minutes to be a good father and put his boys to bed.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And during that time, she... tumbled off the deck when Mark came back didn't see her he assumed she was at the neighbors and he went to bed the defense lawyer said at the very beginning of this investigation a very very sad thing happened and that was they accused the wrong guy so he said also there keep saying she's afraid of the dark she's afraid of the dark no she's not
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Bob said, do you have any asked one person that relative, did you have any knowledge or awareness that Flo Unger had a fear of the dark? And this guy said, no, I was not aware of any. And a friend of hers said, I don't know. So it wasn't a thing she talked about constantly, but they're acting like she wasn't that scared of the dark.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Now, a cousin of Mark's testified that if Flo wasn't afraid of the dark or if she was afraid of the dark, she never showed it at Watervale because they'd been up there with her before and she walks around in the dark. So they asked, to your knowledge, was Florence Unger ever on the boathouse deck at night when it was dark? And this person said, yes, she was all the time. That's what we did.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So now why did Mark want to leave so quickly?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The defense argues that Mark's mood swings while on the phone and packing the car to go home could all be explained as a natural reaction to shock and grief and his overwhelming concern for his two young sons. Now, people do act weird. There are no two reactions to tragedy that are alike. There just isn't. So that's true. The defense lawyer said, didn't he say, I just want to take my boys.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I just want to take my boys and take them home. I want to go home. And the deputy that was first on the scene said, yes, he did say that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's the pants, I think, were the problem. The shirt, they didn't mind. But they were like, Rick, you got to have something on. Please.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. But he can't say, I just want to flee this murder scene that I committed. I just want to flee the scene.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. I got to get my DNA away from this one.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Now, a defense attorney scored some points for Mark when he got the doctor who did the autopsy to admit that the medical evidence didn't necessarily point to murder. Yeah. But it's very semantic because like that evidence doesn't not everyone with those injuries was murdered. It's not a gunshot wound through the head or a cut throat or a knife in the heart.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. We've had a lot of crazy lately. Last week, the main episode was Haddon Clark, who was one of the most insane serial killers with all of his drawings.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's the thing. But that doesn't explain how the fuck did she get in the fucking water from the concrete. That's what that doesn't explain. But they're saying that medically, that's not your job to explain that. So, you know, that's how that goes. So they said, you don't know whether this woman's death was accidental or intentional. And the doctor did the autopsy said, I don't know for sure.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's correct. So then they attacked the credibility of a neuropathologist who had testimony as well that Flo was pulled into the water where she drowned. And the defense said, would it be fair to say that you like cases that generate a lot of publicity? And this doctor said, no. And they said, you gravitate toward cases where you can get your name in the newspaper.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You're just going flopping all around.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he said, no, I. And then they said, get your face before the cameras. Is that a fair statement, sir? And he said, no, sir. Every expert there is being paid to be there. That's the ridiculous part. The cops get extra court pay to be there. You know what I'm saying? To testify. The people who work for the state get court pay, which is extra to testify. It's called overtime. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's a special thing of court pay. It's different. And then you get – it's a different rate and everything. And then you get fucking – it's just silly. I don't – like, yeah, expert witnesses, of course, they're paid to testify. What, are they going to come there for free? That's their job.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I had to go to medical school and this is what I'm doing here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's it. So anyway, I guess this neuropathologist testified a few months earlier during a hearing that Flo was on the cement apron for only a few minutes. But at trial, he said that she lay there unconscious for more than an hour and a half, which is very different.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So the defense said, now, which is true, doctor, the evidence you gave in January or the evidence that you gave from that witness stand? Both of them are under oath. Which statement is true? He said both of them are true.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And they said both of them are true as a question. And he said, because, of course, that's the answer.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I don't know what you're talking about. And I've researched this a lot, and I still don't know what the fuck that means. So she was there for a minute or an hour and a half, and they're both true? I don't get... I guess either could be true is what she... Of course. Because of course. Because of course. And the attorney said, of course. Are you just making this up as you go along, doctor?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You can eat all your meals in your room, Rick. Tell you what. We'll just leave a tray outside of it, and you come out and get it. So the owners, by the way, are in this murder story. They're not like murderers or murdered, but they're involved in this, so this is pretty funny. When you hear their quotes always, just think the owners are not friendly. It's funny.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he said, of course. He said, no, sir. They said, there is a man on trial for murder here. Do you understand that, sir? And he said, I perfectly understand that. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Then the defense team has its own dramatic exhibits here. This is a mock-up of the boat deck brought to court. They made a little fucking diorama. That's nice.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
To show what happened there was linked directly to the condition of the deck itself. And they also have this computer thing. A guy named Dr. Paul. It's computer graphics that demonstrate to the jury. And this is 2006, too. So it's way less than even now that looks like shit. But then it looked terrible.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It shows how an accidental fall could have occurred, and it probably looked like roly-poly-oly, I bet, if the victim lost her balance. However, this doctor admitted that he could not rule out the possibility that the fall was caused by the criminal agency of another person. She could have been pushed. I didn't say she jumped.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Moreover, the absence of palms-down injuries on the victim's body provided evidence from which a rational jury could have concluded that the victim was already unconscious or otherwise incapacitated when she struck the concrete pavement. There's no, like, arm injury where she tried to catch herself, hands, palms, elbow.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
When you fall, no matter what, if you fall off a fucking building, you try to catch yourself. It's just...
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
getting a rock stuck in there yeah yeah and it's that way for so long oh it hurts so bad you don't realize how much you use that exact spot all the time not just for getting rocks in anymore yeah so they said there were some wounds on the victim's hands and arms but he testified that he didn't believe these injuries were sustained as a result of a palms down you know fall position yeah
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So the doctor did not believe that the hand and arm injuries were consistent with an attempt by the victim to brace herself upon impact with the concrete. Instead, the testimony regarded suggested that the possibility that the victim's fall from the deck was not accidental.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
OK, so the railing experts testify the railing was almost a foot too short to meet Michigan building code and that Flo could have lost her balance. Even the owners of the hotel admitted the deck wasn't in great shape. We could have used a redo on that. So the defense attorney has Lynn Duncan up there and says, in fact, in your words, the deck had gotten pretty ratty.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And they say there's a long pause and she says yes or he says yes. So Ratty are and according to engineers rotting here, here's David Ruby, who's an engineer testifying for the defense, said, and in the condition that the timber was in, an accident was waiting to happen. That's all it is.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The defense's team's final witness is Dr. Igor Paul, who's a mechanical engineer from MIT who produced several animations, which would show you, in silly cartoon terms, how Flo could have toppled over and ended up in the water. His videos show how she could have gotten from the concrete to the water, which is amazing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
People in this town, 524 is the permanent residence. Oh, boy. Just enough to work all the places and stores and ice cream shops and shit. More males than females here, which is odd. Really? Over 51% male, but it's very strange because the median age is 60. So when people are older, usually the males start to die off and you get more females. So this is a very strange stat there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No, unfortunately, her head doesn't open like that. Yeah. So the he narrates the video, OK, and says, quote, when she bounces with her head and her shoulder, her pelvis is still above her so that when she bounces, she actually gets propelled up in this frame. Then she continues rolling because she has rolling energy. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'm not a mechanical engineer and I didn't go to MIT. Yeah. But falling straight down and splatting doesn't make you then roll more. There's no hill here. She didn't take a running start and fly off the thing and land and fucking tumble. So that doesn't make any sense to me anyway.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
As for the blood stain on the cement, he said, quote, when she hits right now, she will be hitting with the right side of her head above her ear, essentially, and the blood squirts out of her nose. So that's what happened. And then she has rolling energy. To get off the thing. Now, in other videos, he had several theories that were ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And they're like, if I'm on the jury, even if I was voting not guilty, once I saw that, I go, oh, that's the alternative? That's ridiculous. Guilty. Right. You just showed every alternative and they're all stupid. So, no, I don't buy any of this shit. I was going to vote not guilty, but now I don't know. So that's pretty crazy.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And they also said, obviously, a weak railing is the cause of all of these problems here. Now, the closing arguments here, the prosecutor in the closing argument. It's a long one, by the way. She gave a three hour closing argument. What? That is a lot for a jury to take. Two movies? Two movies worth of a closing argument.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I get that our podcasts are sometimes that long, but you can walk around, do some gardening, go out to the store. There's a lot of information. Travel, drive.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Talking about fucking Dan, what the hell's his name?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
darren's the bald bass player guy slapping the bass i don't know what the hell else you could talk about for three hours but three hours prosecutors will say like and i need to any attorney will say you don't want to sit a regular person who might not be interested in legal shit in a chair for three hours and make you listen to like a dry recitation of the case especially after like a nine-week trial which is not a single joke huh
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No jokes, no nothing. You should have to have some jokes, right?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
If we did this without it, it'd be miserable. There's shows that do it and I don't understand it at all. I don't get how the hell they do it and I don't get how they get through it and I don't know how their audiences get through it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Without just going, this is fucking sad or this is fucking boring or this is something. We're trying to put a little nice little edge on this thing for you, you know, like a little bit. So three hours here, she said, the unfortunate truth is that a human life has been ruthlessly and recklessly obliterated. Wow. And there will never be enough justice for that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Now, the defense attorney here, he went even longer. He went longer than three hours.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'm longer than that. That is wild. So he says, this is Bob Harrison in his closing, he came back and he kissed his sons again after just destroying their mother. Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs couldn't even do that. It's outrageous to suggest that somebody could destroy the life of the mother of these children and act like that. It's outrageous and absurd, and it's a lie. Okay. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
60% married, which is higher than the national average. Single with children, 0.0%. Hell yeah. None. We're all old. Don't care.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So the verdict here... Mm-hmm. Four days and 25 hours of deliberation. What? Dude, they think less about whether to invade countries than fucking, it takes less time to think about. This is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That is sick. Yeah, it equaled about the closings of both, we'll say.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
25 hours over four days. So what do you think is going to happen here? Let's get opinions.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's funny because, like, if it was an hour of deliberations, I would go, God, I don't know, could go either way. They could go, no evidence, not guilty. Or they could be like, fuck that guy. He dove in the water guilty.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
His DNA was in the ties and the boats and the shit that he.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
There was also other stuff there. Yeah. Also, there was maps that he was there and all that shit. There was a lot more evidence. To say that there's no evidence against Scott Peterson, they haven't looked at the case closely because there is. That's a good PR campaign he's run for 25 years, but there's plenty. It's true. I'm just being honest.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
We did the bonus. I saw the evidence.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No, you're right. Yes, there's no pizza slice. You're absolutely right.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's it. Race in this town, 94.6% white, 4% black, 1.1% Hispanic. Religion, 40.4% religious, and it's spread around pretty good. There's some Lutherans, an Episcopalian or two, a Presbyterian here or there. Most of them are Catholic, though, 20% Catholic. So Catholics are the Baptists of the northern Midwestern area of the Great Lakes. Catholics are the Baptists of the Great Lakes.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But like Scott Peterson, there's more obvious stuff. Like with Scott Peterson, you go, okay, so you bought this boat that month but didn't tell your wife about it. You started your affair that month. You looked at the tides and the flows of shit right where the body was before you – like all of that stuff equals a mountain of circumstantial evidence.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Like here, there is very little circumstantial evidence here other than –
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
he must have because no one else had the motive to do it is not a real good case yeah but i mean he didn't scott didn't like call and say uh go look in this part of the bay because i think that you know i mean this guy dove where the body he dove where the body was yeah but if you looked at his computer scott knew exactly where the body was because he he mapped it and went there that's the problem the tides to where the body is he checked those exact spot which is real weird and uh you know and i'm
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I don't know. Whatever your opinion is is what it is.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Shut up. And if you hear his sister-in-law tell you why he's innocent, it makes it even more ridiculous because you go, that's what you came up with in 25 years? Even guiltier.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. Some people think he's not guilty and that's fine. But I think there was a lot more evidence in that case than there is here. Here, literally, all they have is she couldn't have gotten the water by herself and he's the only one with the motivation to do it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Which is weird because he's a fucking goober.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And he's a super goober also. He's a dork and he'll murder you. He does have a boat though. So, you know, that's something.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So 25 hours of deliberation over four days.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Guilty of first degree murder.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, that's a really, that's a tough one to go to people.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You add that in with the fact that she had to have been placed in the water and you go, ugh.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
All he had to say was, where?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I think he did it. And he's not a homicide detective. He's the guy who partially owns a fucking... A bed and breakfast. An inn on a lake. No experience. This isn't fucking, you know, Agatha Christie here. This isn't Murder, She Wrote.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
What kind of hit will my bottom line take if I fix that falling apart boat deck? Right.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's it. Yep. How many more fillets of fish do I have to sell to do that?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Oh, my God. Now, by the way, Mark's mother sat through the entire trial and sold her house to pay for his defense. Wow. Sold her house. She has no house. She's homeless. I mean, she's staying with somebody, but she sold her house and just used all the money to pay for the defense. That's rough. Great mom, but holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Well, think about how much work goes into nine weeks of trial. That is crazy. That's a crazy amount of work.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It would have to be. But yeah, it's not just that. You have to pay. You know how many people they have working for them, researchers? They have to pay all those people. There's a lot that goes into that shit.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. But I mean, she also didn't have to fucking do that. She could have went, well, I mean, yeah, that's nobody forced her to. It all has to come from somewhere. So Mark's mother says, my son is innocent. He would never hurt anyone. And I think the world knows that except for those people and refers to the jury that matter. The only P-12 that matters.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And they come back with, you, sir, may fuck off. Life without parole. What? Yeah. That's first-degree murder in Michigan is life without.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Unemployment rate is seven point six percent here, which is much higher than the national average. And that's because there's a limited amount here. I mean, there's just you either work at the store that sells a little melted snow globe things or, you know, it's a tourist town.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Mandatory. So, yeah. Flo's mother speaks to reporters, Claire, here. And she says, or they, I'm sorry, they ask her, what was the first thing that went through your mind when you heard them say guilty? And she said, thank you, God, justice is served. Uh-huh. The defense attorney, Harrison, calls Mark's conviction a horrendous miscarriage of justice.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Chris Hansen said, did you take this as a personal defeat? And he said, you always do. You can't help it. You're in a war of sorts with the other side, and it hurts.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
What are you going to do? Anyway, I'm going to go BMW shopping, so I'll see you later. I got an old lady's house money burning a fucking hole in my pocket like you wouldn't believe. I got to go.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So, you know, like a reverse mortgage. They end up with everything, and you get shit and no house, too. So Hanson said, is an innocent man now in jail? And Harrison said, absolutely.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Innocent. Now the kids, what's going on with the kids? They have not seen him since May of 2004.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's the last time. Yeah. They were not in the courtroom when the verdict was read. They weren't in the courtroom for any of this shit because they're kids still. They're like 12 and 8 or something, 12 and 9 or some shit. So that's a lot, man. They said that this is his lawyer said this is going to be a setback again in terms of Mark's ability to get back with his sons.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Obviously, this conviction will make that impossible unless we are successful upon appeal because it's very easy to go. Well, he can't have any kind of custody because he's a murderer. So obviously, duh, he's in prison forever. What's he going to do? So the conviction means that Unger's rights almost certainly will be terminated, meaning parental rights.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Even if he fights in court, in many cases, however, people convicted of seriously of serious crimes voluntarily give up their rights to their children without a hearing, you know, because they can't do anything from in there. So it's crazy. One attorney appointed by the court to represent the younger children said being convicted of first degree murder. What would be the point?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The prosecutor will likely amend the petition to include the conviction. So what the fuck are we talking about here? The Oakland chief assistant prosecutor, Deborah Carley, said that that's exactly what prosecutors will do, noting that Unger will be in prison for more than two years, which meets the statutory requirements for termination.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
If you won't be around your kids for two years and you're going to abandon them, basically. Now, we get to go inside the jury room here and hear from the jurors of exactly how they got to this, which is very fucking interesting. This is the shit that we need here. So good job, Chris Hansen, getting on this shit. So the jurors said this was brutal on them. 25 hours of deliberation.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. Not a lot of industry here that you can really crank on to. Median household income here, though, is high. It's $74,167 a year, which is higher than $69,000. It's the average. Cost of living here is 78 out of 100, which is pretty low. Housing is the median home cost here is $249,500.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You've got to be. That's a lot of going back and forth. So Chris Hansen said this was not a smoking gun case. There was no DNA evidence linking him to the crime. No fingerprints, no eyewitnesses. Did that make it hard for you? There's a bunch of jurors sitting there. And one guy says very. Another one says yes. And the other says yes as well. Five people out of the 12 spoke with Dateline.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
One's a waitress. One's the owner of a construction company, a nurse, a pharmacy technician and a factory worker. So there really is a pretty, you know, cross-section of the world there. On the first day of deliberations, they took a vote. One juror, Tina, said, quote, I was undecided. And Hanson said, and what, Tina, was it that gave you doubt at this point? And what, Tina, may I ask?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Gave you doubt. And what, Tina? Yeah. I love that. Tina said, it wasn't so much doubt as I just was not ready to commit to anything. I really wanted to go through all of my notes. I wanted to consider everything, which is fair.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Let's go back to that. Anyway, Lucy, another juror, said, we gave Mark 110%. We really did. Chris Hansen said, he's told that Flo is essentially in the water, but apparently not exactly where, yet he's able to go directly to the location of the body. Was that suspicious?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And James, one juror, James said, very suspicious. They also thought it was very suspicious of his mood swings on the phone that day were suspicious also.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And then he switches over and he's sobbing with one person then switches over. He's like, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You got to build it. That's the problem. You got to build to fucking tears here. Well, although you start out with tears, people are like, oh, God, what's wrong? And now you're right in the middle of it. Now you're into something.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'm building it. I'm building something.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Trying to build something here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I can do it. So they said also the fact that he started packing the car to leave and the fact that he didn't pull Flo out of the lake.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Ew, gross. Yeah, he went gross and dropped her. Like, no. It doesn't matter if your wife's bleeding. You take her out of the fucking water. I wouldn't even think about that. No. They'd be like, oh, I don't know if she's heavy because of water. I'd be like, help me out. Do whatever. I'm dragging her to the fucking shore and she's getting out of the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I'm not going to leave her floating in a fucking lake. What if she floats away? Now what? So I'm not doing that. So they said, Hanson said, did it bother you that he left the body in the water? One of the jurors, David, said it did. If it was my wife laying there, I'd be doing everything I could to get her out. Logic. They also believe the theme that the prosecution had was,
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They said, so you believe the fact that she was afraid of the dark? And they all nodded. Yes, they do. Because I guess it was a major theme with her that she told everybody about. One juror said, and I think someone who's not even afraid of the dark wouldn't logically stay out there in the dark. It's just, it's really dark. It's like even if you aren't afraid of it, you can't see anything.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's so dark. It's just dark, man. After a while, you know, it just gets dark. So another juror said, it just doesn't add up. I don't understand why she wouldn't go with him to put the kids to bed. That doesn't make sense. So they think he did that beforehand, went back to set an alibi with his kids, and then came back. And to say, oh, no, where is she? Have you seen her? No. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So they said, Chris Hansen said here, they also said the most convincing was the testimony about her brain injuries. That was the most convincing, that she couldn't have got into the water on her own. Right.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Super fucking just, yeah, mangled. So Chris Hansen said, was there one star witness in your mind? One person who really sewed it up for you? I'd really love to know this. One juror said, Dr. McKeever for me. He had proof, concrete proof that she was alive for some period of time before she was in the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Sounds great until you get into the housing market. That includes just a lot that has no houses on it. You know what I mean? So that could be $100,000, and they average that out with a house that's half a million dollars, and you have a lower average. So in case you want to find out a little more about it, maybe you're looking for a nice place to spend a summer night in the lake here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They were showing him charts of brain activities and this is how long these things take and all that. Once the jurors accepted that Flo had been alive on the pavement for an hour and a half, they said at that point these computer animations from the defense didn't make any fucking sense at all. Right. In their mind, she laid there for an hour and a half.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So if she laid there for an hour and a half, someone would definitely have to throw her in the water because it's not like she was getting better. She wasn't healing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Where she can then throw herself in the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So the one juror said the animated picture showed that hit in the ground, rolled over several times, had a seizure and drowned many things instantly. Yeah. And there was just too hard to believe. And then Lucy, the jury juror, said bodies don't bounce. I don't care what they say on cement.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No, you could jump from – I was going to say that. You could jump from the top of a fucking tall building and – It doesn't – you don't bounce.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You don't bounce. Well, and the concrete will give a little bit too if there's enough impact. Yeah, it'll – fuck yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You don't bounce. No, even, remember the guy, this happened, Christ, 15 years ago on the X Games. The guy went up the half pipe, did some crazy shit, fell down on the half pipe, which is plywood that's meant to be bouncy, by the way. He fell down, hit splat, and his shoes came off. What? Because the energy had to go somewhere.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But he didn't bounce. He splatted.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And that has a little bit of give, the plywood on a half pipe and shit. It's not concrete, which has no give. Right. Concrete has no chill whatsoever as you hit it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. So, yeah, they said that. And Chris Hansen said, if Flo's body had been found on the cement, not in the water, do you think you would have gone with this being an accident? And the one juror said, yes, have to. And the other jurors said, I believe so. Yeah. So all you had to do was not put her in the water. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
an hour and a half or so maybe heard the that death gurgle is so loud it and they probably were like oh my god somebody's gonna hear this and flopped her into the water yeah plus he might have went he might have because he's not a fucking doctor he doesn't know what's wrong with her so whoever did it might have or whoever did it quote unquote might have said oh shit she's still alive yeah
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I've got to kill her, even though she's going to be dead sitting here. She's never going to regain consciousness. But he doesn't know that. She throws her in the fucking water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, she's not going to point in Bruce Willis' face and tell him how fucked up he is. So the one juror, James, said, I didn't want to make eye contact with the defense, the prosecution, their families. I knew it was going to be hard. Or he said, we knew it was going to be hard. So Mark's reaction to the verdict, we need to know also here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Chris Hansen said, how did you feel as the deliberations went on, day one, day two, day three? Mark says, it was just hard enough to get through those days. Was I anticipating not guilty? Yes. Was I optimistic about being home that weekend? Absolutely. He's like, I'm going to be home. I'm going to be eating McDonald's by fucking.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's been crazy lately. Definitely, before we get started, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. First of all, merchandise is there. But second, tickets to shows are there. Oh, yeah. Get those right now. Get your 420 tickets for the virtual live show anywhere in the world that you are with an Internet connection. You can watch a live show.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yes. Thanks. Chris is like, well, thank you. I can put my notes down.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So he says, Chris Hansen says, how does a guy who's married to great kids living in one of the most desirable suburbs of Detroit end up in your situation? How'd you fuck this up, Mark? Let me. You had it all. What'd you do? What'd you do? Are oxys that good? They must be. Mark Unger said, quote, I wish I knew. It was a shock, a surprise every step of the way. Okay. Really? Wow, that is... Wow.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I don't know what to say about that.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And then the marriage was falling apart because I was doing dumb shit and she was having an affair.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And then Chris Hansen would go, so you did do this then, right? You just told me why you did this. Exactly. Yeah. So, but Hanson said, did you kill your wife Flo? His answer, I would never, ever hurt Flo. Oh, that's not good.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The answer is no, I didn't kill her. I would never. I would never. He didn't say no. And he minimized. He didn't say kill.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Which could be, you kicked her in the shin. Different. Hanson said, did you kill her?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The average two-bedroom rental here goes for $940 a month, which sounds low, honestly, in this area. That doesn't sound bad.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And what does he say? Made it even worse. Quote, I would never do anything to hurt her. gave you a chance to stop the minimizing, gave you a chance to say, fuck no, I didn't kill her. My answer, fuck no, I didn't kill her.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Chris, what the fuck? Help me, bro. Yo, you're on like NBC. Fucking tell people. This is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I don't fucking know. Chris, do you have a house you can sell to help me with this? Because somebody needs to help me.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Please, mom, are you there? Do you know my mom, Chris Hansen? Please help me. You would.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, please. So the Unger boys end up going with Flo's parents who are going to adopt them legally. Mark's mother is suing them for more visitation, which she should have visitation. She's a grandma. She didn't kill anybody. Mark said he's heartbroken that the boys have to grow up without him. Hanson said, what are you going to say to them to explain what has happened here? Oh, boy.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, it's around $1,200. Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,100-square-foot condo. This is not a private home. There's a condo, so there's another house attached to you. It says in the listing, just steps to your own private 30-foot dock and slip on Arcadia Lake.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Mark said, just not having contact with them and saying, you know, you will be able to. That gives me so much hope. I can't even tell you. And I know my boys, and they know that I would never hurt their mother. Again, not kill, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt. So 2006, same year, right after the trial, he is sued by his sons here. This is just like a legal thing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, this is a legal have-to to get money that they have rightfully coming.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
This is like, I remember, do you remember a story years ago where they kept calling this woman the worst aunt in the world? Uh-uh. Because she has like a nine-year-old nephew who like jumped into her arms because she was so excited to see her and fucked up her neck really bad to where she couldn't work anymore and she was all destroyed. And she sued? She sued not the people.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
She sued the homeowner's insurance to be able to get the hospital bills paid for with total acceptance of the family, too. They got it. It was an accident. Yeah, this is the way we can pay it. But the news just took it as an aunt is suing her nine-year-old nephew just for being excited. They literally would call her the worst aunt ever was the chyron over at all times.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
There's an old John Oliver episode where they're showing the clips and there's one where they're describing literally that she had no choice and this was just the thing. But the chyron still says worst aunt ever on the bottom. It's like. It's crazy. So that's what she's known as.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And they were totally understood. So they didn't have to pay for it. They were happy to. So he's sued by his sons. And he didn't contest the lawsuit. This was on purpose. And was ordered to pay the money into a fund set up for the couple's children. He's ordered to pay $10 million. Oh, which he does not have, obviously. But that's the order. So that's anything. Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The figure was based on Florence Unger's projected lifetime earnings as a bank loan officer, plus the personal loss to her survivors as well. So you add all that in and you get this. So the lawyers for the sons still plan to seek $250,000 in life insurance, Mark Unger's mortgaged and vacant home in Detroit, and about $80,000 in property that belonged to the couple.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So the grandparents are trying to get this to put in a trust for them, essentially, is how this works. So obviously there's going to be some appeals going on here, clearly. Yeah, I think so. So Mark's lawyers argue the cause of his wife's death was not made clear at the original trial. That's one of the appeal points here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
In light of the district court's, they say, this is them, in light of the district court's incorrect conclusion regarding the admissibility of Dr. Dragovich's expert testimony, he's the guy who said she drowned, We cannot conclude that this he's the guy who said, because, of course, that's that guy.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's pretty cool. Very cool.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Because, of course, we cannot conclude that the circuit court abused its discretion by holding a newer supplemental evidentiary hearing on the admissibility of Dr. Dragovich's expert opinions concerning the cause of Florence Unger's death. Nor did the circuit court err by admitting Dr. Dragovich's expert testimony at trial.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
pretty bland on the inside this is not a place i feel like where you live this is a weekend summer place because all those places like in lake george they have those all the houses for sale they're like 700 grand and inside they're from 1981 they're just there's carpet they're a mess so that's what it looks like it looks like a giant motel room that needs an update the whole house 224 900 bucks though
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Even a cursory review of the Michigan Appeals reports reveal that Dr. Dragovich has been qualified as an expert witness in the fields of neuropathology and forensic pathology many times in the courts of the state. Yeah. Moreover, the evidence presented, meaning his opinion, whether you like it or not, is an expert opinion.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Moreover, the evidence presented at the Daubert hearing in circuit court made it clear that Dr. Dragovich's testimony was based on established methods in the field of neuropathology and forensic pathology and that the doctor applied these methods reliably to the facts of the present case.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Although Dr. Dragovich did not perform the autopsy in the case, he testified that he frequently consults and offers expert opinions with respect to cases in which he did not personally autopsy the victim. And that is completely common. When you ask people for second opinions, who are you going to ask? The guy at 7-Eleven? You ask another medical examiner, what do you think of this?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And you send them the files. They take pictures and files. You don't have to have your hands physically in the body to see.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
the autopsy you know what i mean it's all covered so they said that he based his opinions in the present case on the autopsy protocol the autopsy photographs various microscope slides and numerous anatomical specimens that were sent for his examination on the basis of all this evidence and his expertise as a board certified neuropathologist which you know we know me and you know how hard that is to how long did it take us to get it's crazy
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It took us so long to get board certified in that. It was wild. They said that the doctor concluded that the victim's head injuries could not have caused sufficient brain swelling to result in neurogenic pulmonary edema and that the victim therefore must have died as a result of intervening mechanism of drowning.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
We note that the doctor's inability to specifically identify any medical or scientific literature to support his conclusions in this case does not necessarily imply that his opinions were unreliable or based on junk science. Indeed, it is obvious that not every particular factual circumstance can be the subject of peer-reviewed writing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So they said it's just there is nobody has talked about this before. That's why there's no like something to cite. So that's what they're saying. They said there are necessary novel cases that raise unique facts that have not been previously discussed in the body of medical texts and journals. Makes perfect sense. What if something new comes up? It's not talked about.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Nor was Dr. Dragovich's testimony rendered inadmissible merely because certain experts disagreed with it. That's why you have experts. They disagree with each other. They said, Sure, sure. They said, Sure. They don't have like expert and better expert as a classification.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Once you're an expert, everybody's the same and the jury decides who to believe. That's it. It's amazing that they give 12 regular people the ability to believe or disbelieve scientists. They know nothing about this. It's wild.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's fucked up. How'd you like to be in prison forever because of that?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Did a correspondence course. Jesus. Nope. Also, lack of evidence.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They argue there's insufficient evidence presented at trial to support the conviction of first-degree premeditated murder. They say both the doctors here concluded that the manner of the death was homicide. Both doctors excluded the possibility of accidental death because neither believed the victim's body could have gotten into the water or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So if you just want to go up and party on the lake or whatever, I mean, if you want to own a lake house, there you go.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
She's out there leaning on a railing, and the railing breaks because it's so rickety. She falls, and she's there. Then what? Someone still had to pick her up. Somebody still moved that body, breathing, alive. Alive, and crumpled, and bloody, and put it in the water.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You would, holy shit, call 911.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's expensive, yeah, but I mean, that's below the average to live on the lake.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You don't do that. So that's the, and here's something that I have that I'm thinking about too. If there's blood from that kind of head injury, there's a bunch of blood. So him throwing her into the water or whoever threw her into the water should have blood somewhere on him, I would imagine.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Had to get somewhere on him. Somewhere, yeah. I hear nothing. I hear paint smear on the shoes, but I heard nothing about a shirt with a blood stain on it.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Now, we don't know if he was wearing the same shirt before or after. I'd like to know if he was wearing the same shirt at dinner that he was wearing when... Right, right. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Because that's the only time... He could have easily come to the room, changed into a more comfortable shirt, and went out there, and that would ruin that, and then you'd never know when the shirt came on, but... And then if he did do it and he got blood on his shirt, where's the fucking shirt?
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Is it bottom of the lake? Did he tie it around a rock? I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, I assume if you're going to buy a lake house, you're not, like, you know, counting scrimping pennies at that point. You're probably...
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's getting on you. On your pants, on your shoes, something.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Well, that you can wash off in the water, I would figure. But on your shirt, you can't. That'll stay there. That's going to stick. So I'm just wondering about that. That, to me, I'm like, well, how did that happen exactly? Where did that – I'd like to know that. So they said there was a lot of – the motive, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They said the victim filed for divorce, the addition of the marital assets, all that kind of shit. The proofs also showed that the defendant had threatened to take sole custody of the children and to take the marital home if the divorce proceeded. Yeah. Also, the defendant had the opportunity to kill the victim. Evidence of opportunity is logically relevant in a prosecution for murder.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The evidence presented at trial established the defendant and the victim were alone on the boathouse deck on the night of the victim's death. So opportunities, he had all the opportunity in the world. Even the defendant himself admitted to the police that he was probably the last person to see her alive.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
There's also evidence of a scuffle or struggle that may have taken place on the boathouse deck shortly before the death. The proofs established that the railing surrounding the deck had been damaged sometime on the day of the death. Lynn Duncan had been on the deck the day before, and the railing had not been broken at that time. So it must have happened that day.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You're doing okay for yourself. Here's a four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,364-square-foot house on 3.52 acres. It's nice inside. It's very updated, HGTV-friendly type of joint. Not bad. Not on the lake, but you have views of Lake Michigan. So it's OK. Seven hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred bucks for that, though.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
However, the railing was damaged and broken at the time the victim's body was discovered. It is possible the damage could have resulted from the victim accidentally falling or tripping over the railing. However, taken together with the white paint smear on the defendant's shoe, which that's a rough one, too. That's chemically similar also. That's not DNA.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's the same as saying these fibers are microscopically similar or these hairs are microscopically similar. It doesn't mean anything. It just means they're similar. Can't count it out, basically. It's equally likely that the damage to the railing was evidence of a struggle on the deck between the defendant and victim. That's kind of crazy. That's a stretch for me.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Moreover, there was evidence that the victim sustained internal abdominal injuries before her death as well, which they don't think are from the fall.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, they said that the internal abdominal injuries were more likely caused by impact with a blunt protruding object, you know, like a fist or a foot, rather than impact with concrete pavement that's flat.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's what we're thinking. And they think she might have. That's why they think, too, she might have been unconscious when she hit the ground because there's no.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. So somebody they're saying somebody beat the shit out of her and tossed her over. And he might. And that's the other thing, too. He might have thought he could toss her into the water from there.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. No, she's never going to come to. She had a broken skull in like eight places.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
No, no, no. Her brain was on strictly mechanical functions. She's never going to regain consciousness with that brain injury.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It could have been gurgling. That's just breathing. That's possible, sure. The shallow breaths and the gurgling, yeah. But she couldn't consciously say or do or move or do anything.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
no and maybe that's maybe that's the other thing he tossed her down and maybe he thought somebody would find her or i don't know i don't fucking know so they said assuming right with the he expected her to go in the water and then he was like oh my god it's so hard to throw a body yeah you throw she just fell yeah you can't toss that as strong as i thought yeah it's not skipping stones for christ's sake it's an adult woman you know i'm such a pussy he's like i used to be able to toss a woman farther than this this is crazy
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So much. So they said, even if the jury believed the testimony of these doctors equally, there's still sufficient evidence of deliberation and premeditation.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Assuming the defendant did move the victim's body into the lake, an inference clearly supported by both doctors' testimony, the logical inference arises that the defendant was motivated to move the victim precisely because he perceived she was still alive and wished to prevent her possible recovery. It's like I said, she didn't know.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
He didn't know if she was going to come to out of nowhere and start talking shit. They said, given the otherwise unexplained relocation of the victim's body into the lake, a rational jury could have reasonably inferred that the defendant moved the victim's body into the water and that the victim was still alive.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
See, I think you can definitely say that she was moved into the water, but I don't know if you can say 100% that he's the one who did it. That's a hard thing.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's the one. That's the one. So he also says he was denied due process when the trial court failed to give individual limiting instructions concerning the testimony of seven different witnesses, all of whom testified that the victim had been upset and concerned about his drug and gambling addictions. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
But it is twenty five hundred square feet almost and three and a half acres. So, OK, a little pricey. Here's a three bedroom, two bath. Speaking of pricey, two thousand thirty three square foot. So not humongous. Smaller than the other one. It's on four point nine seven acres.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So, they said after the first of these witnesses testified, the defense counsel requested a limiting instruction regarding the use of the testimony. The trial court gave the following instruction. Members of the jury, you have just heard testimony that Florence Unger was unhappy in her marriage, having marital problems...
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
and she was unhappy with respect to the defendant, Mark Unger's purported drug and gambling problems. This testimony is not admissible to establish that Mark Unger was addicted to drugs or gambling. It is admissible only to show Florence Unger's state of mind and that there was marital discord.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They said, you may consider this testimony only for the limited purpose, that is, her unhappiness in the marriage relationship and intent to divorce Mark Unger. But you can't separate that in your brain. Let's be honest here.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They said, with respect to the defendant's purported addictive problems, those are admissible not to establish he was in fact addicted, but only to form the basis of the victim's mind for the marital discord. So, anyway, they said we're going to hear from witnesses with respect to the statements that Florence made and the same instruction will be applicable to their testimony.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Here's another thing they said. They were mean to the defense.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Mean. Yeah. They said they were impermissibly denigrated, the defense counsel. Defendant specifically challenges several arguments made by the prosecution during closing arguments, including... They said the defense counsel had re-victimized Florence Unger during the course of the trial, that the defense counsel had, quote, bought Dr. Paul's testimony by paying him a substantial amount of money.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That is Prosecutor 101. Any defense witness, they say, I mean, and he's being paid to be here, obviously, which is stupid.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
They said the defense had improperly cross-examined doctors Cole and McKeever and had attempted to mislead the jury by way of tortured questioning and deliberately loaded questions and that the defense counsel had attempted to mislead and fool the jury by using, quote, red herrings and smoke and mirrors that the prosecutor said all that about them. And then there's the bodies don't bounce.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Defendant lastly contests that the prosecution argued facts not in evidence when it stated during rebuttal that, quote, bodies don't bounce. That that fact is that's, again, like saying gravity is not in evidence. So we can't say that we thought that if I drop something, it would fall on the ground.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It hits head first on concrete. No, it doesn't spring out like Don Beebe when he fucking, the Bills wide receiver.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's because there's a helmet there. That helped that. That's why he bounced. Yeah, yeah. The little cage thing in the helmet like shot his body back up.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So anyway, they go on to say that Paul testified under certain conditions, such a fall from 12 feet onto a concrete surface bodies can bounce. However, doctors Cole and Dragovich testified that they did not believe the victim's body could have bounced, rolled or otherwise moved into the lake in its own volition.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And, I'll read the listing, rare opportunity to own this amazing property, 198 feet of private frontage on Lake Michigan. Nearly five acres of land. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So they said, accordingly, we cannot conclude the Prosecution Act argued facts not in evidence. Moreover, even if this comment had been improper, any prejudicial effect could have been dispelled by a timely objection and a curative instruction. And also they said that they shouldn't have been so mean to their doctor's video shit, the defense's video shit.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It looked great. Pretty fucking badass. They said that because the computer animation showed the victim moving into the water by way of seizures or convulsions were based on conjecture and were inconsistent with the medical facts and evidence, they were technically irrelevant to the genuine issues of this case.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The trial court did not abuse its discretion by excluding some of the videos from the jury's consideration.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, that's three feet away. And you'd have to bounce not just straight up in the air. You'd have to bounce forward.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Crazy. You'd have to be shot out of a cannon to have that happen.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
If you were shot out of a cannon, maybe.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's a forward momentum. You'd have a lot of force behind you forward and you'd hit and roll maybe at that point. But straight down.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So 2018, he appeals again. He's been appealing all the way. And in this appeal, he claims his rights were violated because his trial lawyer, who now he labels as ineffective, before he was a heavyweight, hard-hitting trial lawyer with 100 murder cases.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah, he stole my parents' house. You can't say a guy who's done 100 murder trials is ineffective. Right.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's tough. Yeah. They said he did not object when the prosecutor made provocative comments in the courtroom. A federal appeals court rejected his claim, calling the evidence against him overwhelming. And he lost his appeal. That meant that that was likely his last attempt to get a new trial in 2018. 2019, taking it to the streets.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Actually, not to the streets, to the Supreme Court, the opposite of the streets.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
The court here, the Unger, argued that his rights were violated due to ineffective assistance of counsel. Same shit. Federal Appeals Court had rejected it. Overwhelming evidence. And the Supreme Court agrees with that overwhelming evidence and tells him to keep on keeping on and get fucked. So unless there's some remarkable new evidence, he is in prison for fucking ever.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
That's yours on Lake Michigan.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Unless, like, somebody comes forward and says, I killed her. Here's the shirt I was wearing and all that. Unless that happens, he's done. It's over. Because the fact that there's so little evidence means there's very little evidence that can come to dispute, too. So it works both ways here. Now, he is serving his life sentence at the Chippewa Correctional Facility in Upper Penn.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It's fucking awesome. It's all woods around your house leading up to Lake. Beautiful. Built in 1920. Inside, it's 1989. That's what it looks like in there. That's when it was updated. Farty as the day is long, but a lot of real wood paneling in the rooms that looks nice, that kind of shit. $1,150,000, though. You're going to pay for that. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
It seems in the UP up there. So he is for reason. Chippewa is up there, huh? Apparently Chippewa Correctional Facility in Kin... Oh, God. Kin... Kelo... Oh, Jesus. Nope. C-I... Kinch... Kincheloe? Kincheloe? Kinkeloe? K-I-N-C-H-E-L-O-E.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Cancello? Cancello? I don't know what the fuck it is. That's what I thought. It was so hard for me to not say Cancello. That's why I was trying to get it out.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I just wanted to say that so much, especially I was watching a murder trial where someone was named Chloe recently. I was like, oh, Christ, it's stuck in my head. Now, here is somebody, by the way, in crime and sports, we always do a fucking mistaken identities thing. Someone with the same name. It's worse than small town murder.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Because at least an athlete, you know that that's probably not really Mike Tyson, who is a CPA in Columbus, Ohio. That's probably not that one. But this, you never know with shit like this. There is an attorney in California named Mark Steven Unger. Exact same shit. It is not him, everybody. Just so you know, it's certainly not him.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
His license status is active right now, so it's definitely not him.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Give that guy a break is what I'm saying. Don't like Google him and go, oh, he has the same name as a murderer and then not use it. That's fucked up. He had no way of knowing that. He's worked really hard probably. Maybe. He could be a terrible lawyer. Don't get me wrong. So many old ladies' houses. I think he is like a finance guy because the website is something fiduciary partners.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Yeah. He's not doing legal shit anyway. Or like criminal shit is what I meant to say. So there you go, everybody. There's Arcadia Township, Michigan and Huntington Woods to an extent and a weird case.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
So let us know what you think. This is one of those where I- Sometimes there's two of us sitting here, so our brains can only go a certain amount.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Well, if you have hundreds of thousands of listeners like we do, a lot of times they'll end up coming up with something that we didn't think of because there's a lot of different brains out there. So if you have anything, any thoughts on this at all, please let us know. Talk about it. Talk about it on the page. Talk about it wherever the fuck. Send us messages.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
I don't care because I'm interested in this shit. So very, very interesting. Do that and also head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows while you're doing that. Yeah, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
do that also get your review the show whatever app you're listening on throw a review five stars doesn't matter what you say just say James and Jimmy would be bad at bouncing on concrete that's fine we'll know what you mean they don't know shit about bouncing these guys I'll show them how to bounce that's fine bounce with me And bounce with me. Bounce. So there's that. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Shut up and give me murder dot com tickets for live shows, including the virtual live show.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You're not in one of the cities we're going to. We go to like 12 places. You could not be there. We got other shit. We got this. The 420 virtual live show taking place on Saturday, April 19th. It's available for two weeks after that to purchase, to watch 100 times, do whatever you want with also.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Just like a regular live show, except you are in your living room, on your porch, doing wherever the hell you have internet and feel like watching us. And we're going to have costumes on. And we're going to also smoke a shitload of weed out of weird contraptions that will scare the hell out of Jimmy at intermittent times during the show. So that'll be a lot of fun.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You want five acres of lakefront, you're paying for it. That's how that works. Things to do here. Okay, got a couple of things. First is Arcadia Days, D-A-Z-E, of course. Every town seems to have one. And it says to the festivals, a great local event that celebrates the heritage of Arcadia, Michigan. And this is how they celebrate, with a pickleball tournament.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And get your tickets for regular live shows as well. Chicago in May. You are on deck, baby. Get those tickets sold out, Chicago. St. Louis, you're doing great. You did it. Do you want to not sell out Chicago and have St. Louis be like, we're better than you? Yeah. You don't want that, do you? Jesus Christ. The Cardinals already have like 20 World Series and you have like three.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
You don't want it to be worse, do you? No. So don't let it be worse. You have a basketball team. They don't even have one. Do that. Get the tickets. Also, for the rest of the year, too, a lot of them are selling out. San Diego, Madison. There's a couple others, too, are selling out. So even if you want to go at the end of the year and you're like, I got plenty of time, you really don't.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
Get your tickets right now. So get in there. Shutupandgivememurder.com. You can also definitely follow us on social media. We are at smalltownmurder on Instagram. We are at Small Town Pod on Facebook. And you can certainly get our Patreon, patreon.com slash crime in sports. It's where you get all the bonus material.
Small Town Murder
#575 - Lady In The Water - Arcadia Township, Michigan
And anybody, if you're $5 a month or above, first of all, you'll be shocked at how many bonus episodes you're going to get immediately upon subscription. It's hundreds. We've been doing these for years. So it is hundreds and hundreds of bonus episodes. So a huge binge thing. Then you're going to get new ones every other week and we keep stacking them.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
As we've said, the validity of a waiver of appellate rights depends on whether or not the waiver was knowingly and voluntarily taken. This has to do with a lot of times included in a plea deal is a waiver of all appeals. That's part of it. They'll accept a plea deal, give you a lower sentence, but you're not going to clog the courts up with more shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
OK, but there's sometimes when there's a waiver, but the the attorney didn't explain it. The judge wasn't explicit about it. So once in a while, that waiver will get thrown aside and you can still appeal anyway. And that's what she's trying to do here. They said that they asked her, do you understand that both you and the government will have a right to appeal any sentence I impose?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They said this unqualified query to which the prosecutor, not the same person who appears as counsel for the government in this court, inexplicably failed to take exception, drew an affirmative response from the appellant. The premise of this question directly contradicted the tenor of the waiver provision.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So given the court's failure to make inquiry to the waiver, it's unfortunate contradiction of the waiver's terms and the lack of any correction. or then or thereafter, we cannot say the, with the requisite assurance that the appellant surrender of her appellant rights was sufficiently informed. They talk about her role in the offense. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The court says the facts can be marshaled in a way as to put the appellant in a more sympathetic light. The appellant's able counsel strives valiantly to transform the case into this fashion. He claims the appellant agreed only to spend a romantic weekend holiday away with her boyfriend in Maine, and what happened thereafter was largely out of her control.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The judge says that the judges say this spin does not carry the day, however, because the sentencing court was fully entitled to draw a different, more sinister set of inferences from the largely undisputed facts. So, you know, that's not how it works. And they tell her that it's affirmed. So take your ass back there. Now, 2012.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
um stephen brown is in a facility they're in federal facilities by the way they're taken to so stephen brown she goes to she's in danbury for most of her time danbury connecticut there and he's at another facility uh he is in uh no he's in jessup georgia jesus christ yeah way far fucking away he went to jessup for christ sakes that's no good
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They're out of their minds over there. Yeah, that is crazy. Things to do in this town. Well, let's start out with the New England death metal bonanza. Sure, why not? Fucking rock on. Here we go. It's the New England death metal Funtime Bonanza is the full name of this place. Funtime Bonanza. Which makes it hilarious and makes me want to go to it. I'll just read the description.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So he's in a facility which houses about 1900 male inmates since about 2009. So 2012 is about three years. And they said that they couldn't release information about, you know, disciplinary issues and suicide attempts and violence or anything like that. But on this day in 2012, he does somehow figure out how to hang himself. He did it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Fucking loser. You did it. It took you two tries, but you did it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
50. He goes for the same one that he failed on before. That's what bothers me. It's crazy. Anyway, Debbie says she's pissed off at this. She says, I do believe he took the easy way out because he didn't want to suffer behind those walls. She said her life still hasn't begun, still as trying to get back to normal, even though it's been 12 years. She still is, you know, 13 years. It's a disaster.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She says the nice thing is, quote, I don't have to look over my shoulders anymore. I don't have to live in fear. I can actually go out for outside and not be afraid to be out after dark.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's what that's why she said that, you know, at one point I'm pissed off at him for whatever. But at the same time, now I know he's dead. I don't have to fucking worry about him anymore. Breaking out and coming and killing me. So there's been a couple TV shows on this, including Investigation Discoveries series Wicked Attraction called Till Death Do Us Part.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
how would they not call how did they okay the show's called wicked attraction yeah how did they get unless this is the first episode how did they get to this episode without using till death do us part as a fucking title for a show this is the first one you think that'd be at least in the top three right away well till death do us part i guess i'll bet every series 48 hours dateline all that shit has until death do us part they all do everybody yeah maybe that's what we'll call this one i don't fucking know we haven't used that yet
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Maybe. I don't think so. It's kind of hacky, so I wouldn't use it probably. That's the thing. I try to come up with something weird or a reference to the show or something like that or just something that's eye-catching, but till death do us part just sounds boring.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So 2024, Patricia Teeter and her teeters are up for parole from Danbury at this point, and she is released from federal prison on November 11th, 2024. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. One of the provisions should be you're not allowed to date anybody ever. You're too gullible to date. We're sorry.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
If there is a trailer, it's back there and it's not even listed as a home. It's listed as a dash bedroom, dash bedroom, bathroom, dash square footage. It's just land. Yep, that's it. They don't even have a Zestimate on it. It's just sitting there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No, it's off the market. It's probably been in the same family for 50 years. They don't know what the hell it's worth. So there you go, everybody. That is Lebanon, Maine. Jesus Christ. That's quite the fucking harrowing tale, I would say. That's wild. You're not going to get that all the time from different shows. That's some small-town murder shit right there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It is the most extreme outdoor music festival in the New England area. You can hear the... Like a fucking early 90s guitar lick. It's extreme, bro.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No. She's probably back in Newfield, I would imagine, because that's where she lived, somewhere in central New York there. Who knows? But watch out for the Teets, people.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Check that out. They're out there. So definitely, if you like this show, please let the world know about it. Get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. It helps a ton. Say something nice about us. It takes two seconds, and we can imagine how long it takes to put a story like this together. So help us out. Hook us up there. Do that. Also, shutupandgivememurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Tickets for live shows, February 7th, Pittsburgh. You are up first, my friends. Can't wait. Next night is sold out in Columbus. So if you're in the Ohio Valley, you want to see us this year, Pittsburgh, February 7th. Get in there right now. And if you want tickets to a lot of these shows, they're almost sold out, a lot of them.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Madison, just about sold out. Portland may be sold out at this point, actually. It's possible, yeah. Seattle getting close. We got D.C. and Philly getting close. Chicago getting tickets.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
grand rapids very close to that might be sold out too it's close if it's not so get your tickets right now if you want to come see the show this year i'm telling you right now get in there and and get those damn tickets st louis too that sells really fast so if you want to see us there get in there shut up and give me murder.com also tons of merch on the site all the phrases you love to to tell people you want to tell people you sir may fuck off on a shirt we got you covered you can put it on your shower curtain we don't give a fuck it's sold
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You can. Coffee, mugs, anything you want. So get in there. Do that. Certainly also follow on social media. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook. Definitely get Patreon.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's fucking extreme. No fear. It's hosted in Lebanon, Maine. The Bonanza brings artists and vendors from all over New England, as well as bands from all over the country. And they're going to be into it here. This year's festival features 45 bands from all over the U.S., spanning multiple genres, including death, grind, thrash, which are all just different.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Listen to Crime and Sports. Listen to your stupid opinions and get Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of the bonus episodes. Anybody $5 a month or above, you immediately get hundreds of bonus episodes right to your phone or whatever you're listening on as soon as you subscribe that you haven't heard bonus stuff.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And then you get new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small-town murder, and God damn it, you get it all. That's right. This week, what you're going to get, we're going to talk about Kobe Bryant's swept under the rug rape case there and see what happened with that. We have I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't know. But we have police interrogations.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
We have depositions from everybody. And then everybody can see what they think. I don't know. Then for Small Town Murder, we are going to do an internet salad episode, which is when we kind of give you a sneak peek behind the curtain and show you what we do before we record, which is sit around, look shit up, see what people are doing today, and make fun of it. And that's what we're going to do.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
All sorts of anything from the internet except politics. This is going to be light and easy, and neither of us are going to get into a rage. It's just going to be a lot of fun. Can't wait to do that. It was great last time, and we're jacked for it. People wanted it back, so we said, okay, let's fucking do it. That'll be fun. That is patreon.com slash crime and sports. Oh, one more thing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You get a shout out, too, if you do that. And when do we do those shout outs? Say right fucking now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never kill two members of my family and then kidnap us in a hotel room and make us do horrible things. Hit me with them right fucking now.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Cool. That is, fuck, now I can't even remember. I forget what that's from. All kind of weird shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Maybe a baseball player made a baseball movie?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't know. That's what I was thinking at first. Yeah, maybe.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Pierrick? Wow. Someone couldn't decide whether they wanted to be French or an American kid born in the 80s. They couldn't decide.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And even folk punk, which I don't know what that is, and I don't know how it fits in with this, but okay.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They said it was carefully curated, this lineup, to deliver equal parts brutality and fun. We'll also be hosting many games. You know, the throw your baby in a pit of acid game is fun.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He gets bored on the road. He needs more episodes. He's got kids, Jimmy. He's got small children. No, he's got small children now. He's like 90 years old. Yeah, brand new one. He just had a new kid recently. You've got to save that money.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's what matters. That's mainly it. You can't just say, I'm going to cut that out for a month and then go back. Can't do it. That's not what it is. Bet you don't. So I'm glad it's helping you. That's great. And it really does. I like the psychology and biology-based approach here. Noom weight uses psychology.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
pin the head on the live chicken yeah that's a good one that's fun uh the poster for this has like all the band's logos so it's really hard oh yeah i love that they do that it's funny their band name impossible to read all right belushi speedball i see is one of them which is obviously uh uh what is i can't read what that is joe buck yourself is another one okay
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You wonderful, fantastic bastards. We cannot thank you enough for what you do for us on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis. Thank you for everything. And tell your friends, keep hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media, shut up at GiveMeMurder.com, drop down menus, take you everywhere you want to go. That said, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Maybe my favorite band name ever, Poon Tickler. That's amazing. The Poon Tickler. Okay. Sure, that sounds like something we do on Your Stupid Opinions for a personal item. Here's the Poon Tickler with three stars. On Amazon. On Amazon. Anti-sapien. I guess they don't like people. Dead Alive.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
narcotic wasteland um i don't even know deterioration bonginator okay that's kind of right on the nose there i think work harder this is bad dude look at i'm gonna look at the posters this is gonna drive it looks like a bunch of tribal tattoos they don't even look like so painful a mutation barbecue is one of them yeah i see it's so dumb what does that say
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
jar or tar i have no beats me no clue well if that is also black mass i see that's one of them here okay that's got to be a massachusetts band right i would think yeah maybe black mass mutation barbecue i like nailed shut that's when i can read that's cool yeah nailed shut now i want to see the poon tickler If you get the Poon Tickler in there, maybe they won't be so shut. That's the thing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That was the Poon Ticklers with... Oh, man. They'd stab me harder. Jesus Christ, that'd be so weird. Tar, it looks like. Tar? Or jar?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
maybe jar yeah that's possible the tea is really awkward it looks like look at this that doesn't look like they need to work on their fucking j because that doesn't look like a j yeah right it looks like tar i don't know yeah but i'm sure it's jar um everything's got to be like all jagged lettering and it's all the same then you can't even fucking read it if i was a death metal band my logo would be like bubble letters just because it's going to stand out on every poster i'm on that's what everyone's eyes are going to go to
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's why they say losing weight starts with your brain, but it also takes into account your body. Unique biological factors, Jimmy. All of your multitude flora and fauna that goes on inside of you there. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology-based approach. Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com. Noom.com. N-O-O-M-O-M. dot com here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, absolutely. Everything. Deterioration. Maul. M-A-U-L. Immortal suffering will be there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Who the fuck knows? Those are all the ones I can read, but there's literally twice as many bands as I've written. And there's no big headliner. Not that I can see. There's shit in big letters, but I can't even read what they are. It looks like, I don't know, maybe the biggest ones like Belushi Speedball will be headlining one night.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It sounds familiar, but I mean, we've also heard about a lot of John Belushi doing speedball, so maybe not. Good point, yeah. And if that is too much, let's say that is like a little too extreme for you. There's also the complete opposite of that, which is the Cannabis Church of New England. Oh, really? That's way too much. I'm going to chill out now for a while and smoke some weed.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And they say, we believe in freedom of religion. Our motto is do unto others as you have others do unto you. Well, that's a lot of people's mottos. That's, I believe. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that the golden rule, as a matter of fact, it's called? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Wow, it's in a lot of shit. Our annual membership meeting is always the third weekend in August at our Live, Laugh, Love Festival.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Jesus. We also meet annually two Saturdays before Halloween. What a fucking weird... Not the second Saturday of October. Two Saturdays before Halloween. So what if Halloween's on a Saturday? Does that mean that the... It'd be so confusing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Oh, shit. Why are they making it confusing for people who are stoned also? That also makes you over analytical. So immediately, because I am stoned, I thought, well, what if it's on a Saturday? Then what is it? Is it the last Saturday? Is it two Saturdays or three Saturdays before that? Because that's the thing that fucking blew my mind. I'd never show up for this thing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
People showing up on the wrong Saturday. That is the our hollow harvest fest. And then it says we also gather randomly throughout the year. We are open to and for all by appointment. So you got to call and say you're coming and then you're allowed to go there. So what the fuck is happening? Death metal and weed is happening in this town. Crime rate in this town. What we are interested in here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Property crime is about one third below the national average. That's good. That's not bad. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about two thirds under the national average. So one third of the national average. That's very safe. Very safe. I mean, not a lot of people here, not a lot of people. And there's nobody out doing anything.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So how the hell are you going to we're going to get in beef with someone at Dunkin Donuts at eight o'clock in the morning? Yeah, that's a that's a weird one. So that said, let's talk about some murder and let's do it. Just one of the weirdest things ever that we've ever had. It's so strange. Let's start out March 29th, 1999. OK, everyone's scared of Y2K for some reason.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And we're all terrified here. This is 1257 a.m. So one in the morning. Yeah. 9-1-1 call comes into the York County Sheriff's Department and it's a report of what they what they believe what they're calling is a domestic dispute. It's a Monday evening, Monday night, you know, whatever. So the person making the call is a 12 year old girl named Whitney Brown.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And she is freaking out saying, I don't know what's going on. My mother got in her car and there's other people out there. And my mother was screaming, he's here, he's here. I heard it from the inside. She was out in the driveway. And from the window, she tells them that she heard he's here, he's here from her mother outside the trailer.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And then from the window, this Whitney, 12-year-old Whitney, looked out and saw two armed figures descend on her mother's car and smash their way inside the vehicle. So she's on the phone.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's one in the morning. Yeah, it's one in the morning. So it's just shadows and figures. And, you know, even if lights are on, it's hard. They're not great at one in the morning like that. So and then they were gone. They disappeared. So she tells the police, I think I think it's my father that did this. I think my father just did this to my mother. In the driveway.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
All I heard is, he's here, he's here. And then I see two people with guns, armed people, smashing into her car. And then they were taken off with their car. So I don't know what happened. So the police show up, obviously. Everybody's gone from here. And they don't know. They're trying to figure it out and piece this thing together. And they're going to find some surprises out behind the house.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And oh, yeah. And this is going to lead to a crazy fucking unraveling of a wild story here. So let's let's find out who these players here are. Deborah Smarella is her mother. That's her mom, Debbie. She goes by Debbie Smarella. Debbie is born in 1963. And that's like I said, Whitney's mom, the woman who was being who screamed. He's here. He's here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
uh she grew up mostly in kittery maine but then also moved around a lot from you know around maine yeah her mother her stepfather her father was gone from a young age but she had a stepfather so mom and stepfather had to move around a lot but she spent most of her time in kittery i guess they'd end up back in kittery maine a lot and stuff like that not bad at all so um
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
At age 18, Debbie is going to find someone she describes as a charming bad boy. That's always the right guy, ladies. That usually works out great. That's the guy. Fuck that guy. Then find somebody nice. So I guess this is when she lived in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. And there's a small Navy shipyard there. And that's where she met this guy. His name is Stephen Brown.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Now, Stephen Brown's about her age, born a year later. And Debbie remembered the exact date and time she met Stephen Brown, which means she either really loved him or really hated him. One of the two.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Extreme emotions here. It was 10 p.m. on July 17th, 1981 in Prescott Park on the waterfront in Portsmouth.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She met him. She said she saw him sitting on a motorcycle. She was smitten from there, buddy.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yep. She had later on said he asked me if I wanted to go for a ride and we just drove around all night. Really? Yeah. Just want to go for a ride. She was like, sure. He's like, hop on, baby.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No helmets. I see in this at all. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. That's what I mean. Who the hell knows what's going on? And she said from that point on, we were inseparable. All he had to do was go, you want to hop on the back of this bitch? And he was, that's it. Yeah, that's it. She was into it. And at 18, you can pull that off.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
At 18, you could be like, what's happening, sexy lady? You want to hop on the back of my bike? And an 18-year-old will go, sure. Yeah. Whereas a 40-year-old will be like, get away from me. Do you have a car also? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Anything? This isn't your only mode of transportation, is it?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's what they'll ask. I'm telling you.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's the problem. Yeah. That's what I see anyway. I see a guy on a motorcycle, and I'm like, he might have no choice.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, especially in the rain. I'm like, you made either an active choice, you're either a dummy, or this is the only form of transportation that you have. One of the two. No other option here. So, yeah. Steven... Let's find out about him here. They're going to date all through 1981 and all throughout the fall. And by the end of the fall of 1981, she's already knocked up.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Which I believe you can get knocked up just from riding on the back of a motorcycle, I think. I'm not sure.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's what it is. You got a horny 18-year-old guy driving it, I feel like the osmosis through just holding him around the waist, you're going to get pregnant. Like a mogwai, you just touch him. Kids are going to start flying out.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Especially if that's his only form of transportation. Then he's very fertile, that means.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But as we know, the rule with men are the bigger scumbag you are, the more fertile your sperm is. That's just the way it works.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're, like, back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It fucking really jacks your sperm up here. So Stephen grows up the oldest of three sons. So all three boys in the family. He is the son of Ken and Donna Brown. He grew up in a house built by his parents. So there's no reason for him to be a shithead, this guy, by the way. And he's not just a shithead because he rides a motorcycle. That's not what we're saying. Jimmy has a motorcycle.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This week in Lebanon, Maine, a dark plan unfolds as a man lures people to their horrifying deaths so he can try to convince his wife to return to him and that everything will be much better now. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
My dad and my brother have motorcycles. That's not what we're talking about here. He's an asshole and he has a motorcycle.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Honestly, here, we often hear about, you know, red flags that you should avoid. That's a lot of a thing. It's become a real phrase now, real cliche. But why don't you focus also, you look at, like, green flags in friends and partners. Look for good things as well. Maybe you're not sure what that looks like, though. Therapy can help you figure that out. What are positive things?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
What are the green flags? And then you can practice them in your relationship. It's absolutely a fact. And so honestly, we absolutely are huge advocates for this. It really, really helps. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable. It's convenient. They serve over 5 million people worldwide.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So he grew up in the woods in Newfield, New York, which is as central as you can get as far as east to west. It's central New York. It's near Ithaca. It's up there. Oh, yeah. Right in the middle. Not a lot going on there. It's 10 miles from Ithaca. It's where Cornell is, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So it's a town of about 5,000 people. All these college towns up in New York, like there's all the SUNY towns, which are State University of New York. They're all just these little college towns. It's weird.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
There's so many of those fucking colleges everywhere.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Every little town in western New York has a SUNY. They all do. It's unbelievable. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a town there probably. Once the mill closed, that was what they had. You know what I mean? So Newfield's an old farming town, and everyone around here knows each other. Families stay here for generations.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Oh, that's the Wilson farm, and that's the so-and-so farm, and everybody knows everybody's shit. It's one of those type of towns here. Now, Stephen, and this is funny because when you grow up in a big city and you're like a ne'er-do-well kid, nobody gives a shit or notices. But when there's a town of 5,000 and you're a shithead kid, everybody knows who you are and that you're a shithead.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's everybody. There's no way around it. So his mother, his own mother, called Stephen a, quote, problem child.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, redhead, adopted, little asshole. You know how it goes. No, that's not him. Goddamn. Just like the movie. So John Ritter couldn't figure out how to raise him. You know how it works. He had trouble sitting still and taking instruction at school. Now, that's also, you know, ADD and shit like that, ADHD. Nowadays, we'd realize that.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But at the time, they were just like, fucking, he's an asshole.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Won't sit still. Won't sit still and listen to this boring bullshit. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Get the ruler. Let's whack him a couple times. But the problem is, too, he was bullying the other kids as well and constantly getting in fights with people, including his brothers.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Beating the shit out of his brothers, who he's the oldest of.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Something here. His mother said today they would have sent him to a psychiatrist and put him on medication. But back then he was just labeled as a bad kid. That was a bad kid. Hyper. So Stephen never gets along with his father. That's a problem over the years. His father keeps trying and keeps trying, but his father is kind of a strict guy and a disciplinarian type of guy.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And his Stephen is having none of that shit whatsoever. Right. So Stephen leaves home at 16, just hops on his hog and fires it up. Rides off into the sunset here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Aims that headlight toward Texas is where he aims it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It was around 1982 ish. Uh, he's assigned.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. He didn't have much else going on and you know, why not? There's no wars going on at the moment. So fuck it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So he was assigned to an infantry assault battalion. Wow. Um, problem is his inability to pay attention and follow orders. Yeah. Isn't just school or his dad. No, it doesn't get fixed in the Marines. Uh,
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Back then, they'd be like, you send him to the Marines, they'll straighten him out. But not everybody is straightened out by the Marines. Some people are just fuck-ups, and that's all there is to it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today. We have a crazy show for you, as usual. Just wild stuff going on in this episode. This was one of those, as I'm reading it, I'm shocked at every turn. I'm like, oh, my God, this is insanity. We will get to all of that and more, of course. But first, before we do, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So his mother said that he was transferred to the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard to work as a security guard before they gave him an early discharge. That's what a pain in the ass this guy was. They were like, let's send him to the Navy and make him stand there by himself from 10 o'clock to 7 o'clock, 10 o'clock at night to 7 o'clock in the morning.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
A shipyard. Nothing's happening. No, and they go, stand there for eight hours. Good, great. He can't bother anybody.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's it. He had tattoos and a motorcycle and tattoos in 1981 were.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, you were edgy. I mean, a lot of the military guys had them, but that was an edgy thing. That wasn't like, you know, normal for everybody to have a bunch of tattoos.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
yeah that's that's what you would think back then yeah my mother had a boyfriend who was a navy seal and he had a bunch of yeah like navy seal weird tattoos and i was like wow you got a bunch of them he had a clown making out with a woman so his hands were on her ass it was like dude why would and it's right on his fucking forehead oh that's weird where are you gonna work that's fucked up man what are you gonna work who are you gonna talk to what is that a clown molesting a woman what do you have on your arm it's crazy
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This guy had a giant like from his shoulder almost to his elbow, a giant like fucking creepy grim reaper with blood dripping off the sickle.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Well, that was his Navy SEALs units tattoo. Really? They had it drawn up and they all got it. Everybody got it. They all got it. So I'm like, yeah. When someone asked him about it, he'd go, yeah, because we had to murder a lot of people. That's what he would say. We had to kill shitloads of people. That's what we did.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's what it was. So January 11th, 1982, with Debbie four months pregnant, they fucking shuffle on down the aisle and get married. Wow. Steven is not going to, you know, shirk his responsibilities here. He's going to marry this young lady. He'll be a good dad. They're going to hopefully live happily ever after, a 19-year-old and an 18-year-old with a baby. As we all know, that always works out.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Sometimes it does, but sometimes it does not.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, lots of people did. So they had a civil ceremony. Didn't do a church wedding or anything like that. A few days later, apparently... So Steve turns a little bit dark here a few days into this marriage. He told her, tells Debbie that he owns her now, you know, like a motorcycle. And she told people that he also threw her across the room, quote, like a rag doll as well.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He told her this marriage license is my title to you. Oh, boy. Like a motorcycle. She says, I got two things. I got a motorcycle and a woman. These are what I own. No car, though. She should have asked that ahead of time.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's my title to you. Like, yeah, this is like a car. Yeah, get it notarized. Debbie recalled Steven telling her this as he's throwing her around the room and treating her.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The entire 2025 calendar is for sale. Pittsburgh, February 7th. You are up first. Get in there. Columbus is not an option the next night because Columbus is sold out 100%. Get your butts to Pittsburgh and come see us there. And then all the other dates, too. Madison just about sold out. Portland, I think, is sold out. And that's in November.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
violently basically yeah and this obviously if this happens three days after you're married here's this is the honeymoon phase it's not good so it's not going to probably get a lot better over time i would think and she's fucking pregnant for christ's sake he's throwing her around the room so that's a very little disregard for really anything this will likely deteriorate further
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, she said that he began kicking and punching and shoving her within a week of the marriage. It never happened before, just like that. She said one night he was drinking heavily and doing coke, which is terrific. What a great combo there. When he came home, she was standing in the kitchen. He came home, coked up and drunk, which is a... Real weird combo.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Sometimes you're a little more paranoid. Sometimes you're more drunk. You never know.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, kind of fits. A 1981 scumbag on a motorcycle.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I've been drinking and doing coke off my bike seat. Doing coke off my bike's gas tank.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So she said, next thing I knew, I was being picked up and thrown across the room. Okay. Which is fucking horrifying. He just comes home fucked up. She's standing there pregnant. By this time, she's five months pregnant, six months pregnant, and he's tossing her around the room. This is crazy. So they're going to end up having a son. This first child is going to be a son named Stephen.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Let's name it after him, too. Give him a real fighting chance here. And then later on, they're going to have Whitney in about 1987. So they're going to stay together for a few years, but it's a lot of...
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
rocky it's real rocky and it's a lot of who knows what mood he's in and he's okay for a few months and then out of nowhere he starts being violent for a while and abusive and then he's not again and real strange guy here steven so um after steven is just discharged from the marines in 1982 just just charged from the marines after he's fucking booted from the marines this guy just reminds me of my friend who starts stories with so i was a wall from the navy right that's amazing
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
In a real Philly accent. He's from Philly. Guinea from Philly. He's like, so I'm AWOL from the Navy, right? Oh, my God. That's a great way to start a story. And I'm like, I got to hear the rest of this. I know this is going to be interesting. Jesus Christ. So after he's discharged, they start moving all around the country. Just no stability. Looking for a place to lay down roots here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Which, good God, if you have to be in a you're in this horrible, abusive relationship and you're forced to pack your shit up and move around all the time, too, that's never good. They move around different places. They're in Florida for a little while. Virginia for a little while. You know, all around. I guess where there's work, probably, I think is where he's going.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Finally, though, after a while here in the late 1980s, now they have two children and everything like that, they end up settling back in Newfield, New York, where Stephen is from.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Stephen gets a job that he knows he can get because his father gives it to him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yep. Well, he's delivering home heating oil, so it's not like he's... Not like he's inheriting a fucking NFL football team or something.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So Seattle, D.C., Philly, all these places, get your tickets. Chicago, get them now.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Not exactly Mark Davis or whatever the Val Davis' kid is, but still. He's delivering home heating. Yeah. That fucking weirdo. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Delivering home heating oil, which we just had a problem with and it was really annoying. Oh, yeah. Never mind. Long story. It just makes me angry at Steven because I'm like, oh, you deliver this shit? Yeah. Let's talk about it. Get over here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Get over here. So, yeah, they settle in Newfield where Stephen works delivering fuel to the masses apparently here. He works for his father's company, Agway Fuel Company, and they live in a – the family lives in a house owned by his parents, Donna and Kenneth Brown. Okay. Basically, he moves back in and just is taken into the womb of his parents here again. Just here's a house you can have.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Here's a job at my company. You know, that sort of thing. No, no. I mean, if it's a good job and a good house and a nice area, it's fine, I guess. But he's not making his own way.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You just want to go out and ride your bike and fucking do coke off the steering wheel or off the fucking handlebars and everything else.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. get in there, get those tickets. So thank you for everyone that's done that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Also all your merchandise and everything else there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's going to be a problem. Yeah, that's not going to be great. He was irresponsible, by the way. He hasn't grown up at all. He's still kind of a jerk off, which is why he keeps moving around the country because he can't hold down a job because he's very irresponsible. He would lie to his father and tell him he was working when he wasn't. Yeah, no, I'm at work. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I'm working.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, I'm going in today. And then he wouldn't do anything. So his mother said Steve could be very lax. He only does a good job when he wants to. He is a natural truck driver. He can back between two trees and not hit the mirrors. Unfortunately, the laziness sets in. Right. He's fucking that are enablers. He's fucking lazy. Yep.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And that's and they know that's why he's back here and that's why he hasn't been able to. get anything else going on in the last eight years because he's a fucking lazy asshole. They know it. You know how relieved they probably were when he joined the Marines? They were like, okay, at least he's the government's responsibility. Yeah, not ours anymore.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, no shit. So he's being lazy. He's lying to his father. And after a while, he's so bad that his own father has to fire him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You should definitely listen to our other two shows, your stupid opinions, which who doesn't want to hear people's dumb opinions and reviews from the internet and then crime and sports as well, which we promise you, you don't have to like sports to like it. It's us making fun of a, of a moron who threw away their entire career. That's, that's good stuff right there. So we will get to that.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
yeah his father does it he does it he fires him yeah yeah at some point if you're not making your fuel deliveries it's fucking cold yeah you're gonna lose customers and then you're not gonna have a business anymore so and you're gonna you're gonna get a lot of phone calls about people that don't have oil it happens trust me we made those phone calls a few times and uh it was fucking great i'll tell a short story here
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Had a delay in the oil delivery, okay? My house has heating oil. And we're waiting and calling them, and they go, oh, well, we thought we had a wrong address. They said it was undeliverable. We're like, no, no, no. We've been here for three years getting fucking oil constantly. Give us our oil, right? So yesterday, the oil guy pulls in. He's going to give oil.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But I didn't see him putting the hose in the oil thing and doing it. So Sarah has been fighting with these people and everything. So I look out the window because she runs out the door. To make sure he's doing it. I look out the window. She is standing on the top step of the door of the truck, holding on to the grab bar thing, talking to the driver in the window.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So I'm like, oh my God, this guy tried to say I'm not delivering the oil and she's on the side of the truck going, fuck you, bro. You're not leaving. I will hang on the side of this truck. She's the kids from Breaking 2. Dude, totally. She's fucking Shabba-Doo.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
it's what so i run outside to like try to fucking quell the situation or i got her back i'm like yeah motherfucker you're not going anywhere and then i see her laughing because the guy was just like settling in and he could she couldn't hear him through the window that's why she climbed hilarious i thought i was like i'm gonna have to fight a fucking oil delivery man today that's why this is funny to me hold the back of it and dig your feet it's happening i'll get on the passenger side i guess i gotta get her back you know what i mean
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Tell them, you're going to deliver my oil and save the community center, motherfucker. That's right. Bet you can't do this. Put a piece of cardboard down and bust some shit out.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I know. I remember you. We were texting about it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Isn't that? Yeah. Well, that was pre-everything. That's probably when he first started. So, oh, my God. Now, while this is all going on here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You did say Ice-Q. God damn it. And I saw Ice-T in my head when you said Ice-Q. Because I knew he's in it. But I was like, yeah. Yeah. So, well, Ice-T was never the greatest rapper. No. No. And he said that, too. He was like, I'm not a fucking rapper. I just knew how to hustle these people into paying me. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Goddamn. Body count was good shit. So anyway, they get fired, and the couple, or he gets fired, and Steve and Debbie move back to Maine with their children here. So they move to Maine.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They're moving around in Maine because they're trying to just figure it out because she just wants to. They don't have, there's no stability with these two.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So it's like they're going to go to kiddery first and then end up in other places as well. So bad. While they're doing this, basically, he keeps his abusive nature up and Debbie would take the kids and leave after one of his outbursts. And that happened all the time. She'd take the kids. She'd leave. And this, by the way, wasn't for he didn't freak out over anything big.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get an entire giant back catalog of hundreds of episodes immediately upon subscription. Then you get new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And how much of that do they get? You get every bit. Every damn drop of it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You gambled away our mortgage money or anything like that and yell at her. This would be the dishes are dirty in the sink. I didn't like that meal that you made me. So he'll freak out, throw the plate against the wall, say it's shit and she's a loser and, you know, attack her. So it's a lot. It's she's a he's a fucking monster. So now neighbors didn't see any of this, though.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No, their neighbors said they look like a couple that like doing shit together. Yeah. On the outside, they he keeps up the appearance on the outside of everything's great. But behind closed doors, it's not wonderful. Neighbors said they liked fishing together and they'd go motorcycling together. And, you know, yeah, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, just an elbow maybe or something. So he's also known as a big hunter in the area as well. And, yeah, they said that nobody knew about any real problems in the neighborhood, one of the neighbors said. Like, we didn't have any idea. So in 1990, that's when they're going to stay in Kittery for a minute here in Kittery, Maine. He gets a job with the highway department in the town of Kittery.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Right. So, okay, that's a stable job. And in April 1990, though, he transferred over to the sewer department because, you know, he stood on the highway and went, I want to wonder what's under this. That's what I need to know.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Where's the poop go when I flush it? That's what I want to know. I'm going to follow it to its source and find out. So he would maintain trucks and clean sewer lines. Which sounds absolutely disgusting. He did that by choice, by the way. He was like, I want to work with poop. That's what I want to work with.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
During this time, let's go over some problems they're having during this time here. So this is some ugly shit here, everybody. Debbie said that at one point he put a shotgun in her mouth and threatened to kill her.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. She said he also abused the children as well. This isn't this isn't just the wife. This is anybody, as we know, kids at school, his younger brothers, anyone who's around him that he feels like he can physically push around. He does. He does pretty much. He would kick and punch the kids. He would call his daughter. We're talking an eight year old. He would call her a whore. OK.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
alrighty. She's sitting there watching Wow Wow Wubbzy and he's like, whore! That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's insanity. And he'd call his son stupid. So she's a whore and he's a moron. Alright. But I mean, he's like, you know what, 12 or something. He might be stupid by now. We don't know. You don't call him that, but it's possible that he is. I doubt it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And this week, what we're going to give you is for crime and sports. We are going to talk about Kobe Bryant's little little problem he had in Colorado. There is the rape accusation and everything that happened afterwards. And we'll get into all that. We have the depositions and the interrogations and everything. And then for small town murder, it is Internet salad time again.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He's frustrated that he... Am I a completely non-medical psychological opinion here? I think he's upset that he can't get any fucking footing anywhere. He's upset that no one looks at him as great as he thinks of himself. He can't get any footing, so when he goes home, that's when he can have some control.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He has no control over the outside world that doesn't give a shit about him, but this fucking woman and these two little kids... They're stuck here with me. I can fucking knock them around all I want. That's what it feels like.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's fucking crazy, man. Now, Debbie's relatives said they didn't know about any of this. They didn't know about this abuse while the couple was living in Maine. She wasn't telling her relatives about it or anything. Her uncle, Terry, said that Debbie left Stephen and moved into a Sanford, Maine shelter for battered women. Right. But he came and apologized and sweet talked her and she moved back.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And this happens all the time with him and her all the time. Donna and Ken Brown. Those are Steve's parents. They only visited them once in Maine and they said they were appalled at the conditions they were living under. Not the way he was acting, the conditions of the house. They said they were it was fucking appalling. They said they looked like they were just living in abject poverty.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Like it was like crazy. The mother said they weren't on welfare, but they looked like they were. It was hard for us to accept. Just. Yeah. Yeah. And they went there like our son is trash. That's what they figured out. Yeah. Our son is white trash. Perfect. So Stephen's parents, after seeing all of this and they have two little kids running around and squalor and everything else. Right.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Rather than going, holy shit, we really made a mistake here with this kid. We fucked up. They said, let's offer him something. Let's get him out of here. Let's get them out of this situation. They tried to save him again.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's how much they give a shit about this kid. And then Ken gives him a job delivering fuel again.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Delivering oil, even though he fucked up last time. So, wow. His mother here, his mother said Ken gave him a second chance and told him if he didn't make good, he would have to make it on his own. She basically told him, I'm going to set you up for success here. And if you do well in the business, something tells me it's his father's business.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
His father's trying to set him up to be able to hand this business off to him. All goes well. When I'm dead, you're living in the house with your kids and you own a fuel business. That's what the goal is. All Stephen has to do is not be a disaster.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
All he has to do is not fuck up. So he seemed to be happy back in his own town, own hometown there in Newfield. He had a lot of friends there still from growing up here. He'd do his job in the early mornings, but then in the afternoon he had free time and he liked going hunting and fishing and golfing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I mean, yeah, that sounds great. Why not, right? Debbie, though, doesn't have really any friends that much because she didn't grow up here and it's a small town. It's 5,000 people. So if you don't know everybody, it's going to be really hard to make friends. You just have to hope that some of Stephen's friends have wives you don't. Oh, which is brutal.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
feel like every once in a while we feel like people are getting tense and we're like let's have an internet salad where we're going to talk about everything that doesn't matter basically it'll be just like we do before the show starts and we're looking around going god you see this idiot stuff like that no politics just fun it's going to be a good time patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well for sure where jimmy will mispronounce your name while he'd love to get it correct so that's a lot of fun
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
As we all know, we've been put in that situation of you two are the same gender. Talk to each other. And it's not great.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Hang out with him. Yeah. No, I don't like that at all. Fuck. So they she also would work two and sometimes three jobs at this point. I don't know if that's to get out of the house and to keep herself occupied or what here. She worked at a garden store in Ithaca and a lady named Joyce Fox that worked there for nearly three years said she could tell that Debbie was having some trouble at home.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This woman said she never said anything, but I knew there were problems. She'd come into work in tears and she couldn't concentrate. It got to the point where she was losing a lot of weight as well. Getting too thin here. So this woman said she didn't say anything. She didn't say anything to Debbie and Debbie didn't say anything to her about it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It was just something she noticed that obviously something was wrong. But, you know, it's a co-worker. You don't know exactly what's wrong in their life. You don't know if their parents are sick or you have no idea. Who knows? So this woman said, though, she was pretty sure that Debbie was being abused by her husband at the time. That's what it seemed like.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She said, if not physical abuse, there was mental abuse. After going through a divorce myself, I told her, you don't have to take that. She eventually recognizes it. She got a friend who's like, hey, listen, that's you know, this isn't cool. What's going on here? Which sometimes you need an outside voice to tell you that. And you go, oh, yeah, what the fuck am I doing?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As much as it's embarrassing, at least it's also as some people take it as embarrassing. It's also might feel like you're not alone for a minute here, which is also seen for a sec.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, that's pretty good. She worked at Kohler Inc. K.O.L.A.R. Inc. Small manufacturing plant where she assembled machine parts. OK. And Stephen made a point of dropping by the plant nearly every day to have lunch with her.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Because he got off around her lunchtime. Remember, he gets off, he goes early mornings, and then he gets off early, goes and has lunch with her. She's the only woman on a 12-person crew. So wonder why he's there every day. While visiting... Oh, my God. So now she's the only woman that works there and all the guys know about her sex life, which is pretty shitty, honestly.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. He even bragged one time right in front of her to all these people that one time she had to go to the hospital because we had sex so hard. The hospital. I put her in the hospital. He was bragging. Shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
jesus christ so anyway 1997 ish around 1997 steven's parents decide that 37 years is long enough in the fuel oil business time to get out time to get out of this game ken's gonna retire and then the parents are gonna move to florida that's how this is working okay doing the northeast thing so basically steven is not Offered the company or anything like that. His dad sells the company.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I mean, yeah. So basically, Steven loses everything here. He loses.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Not really, unless it's... Well, he can. He was able to get work as a driver, but he got a big pay cut because his dad was paying him what he could live on with the kids. And also, now his boss isn't his father, so he can't fuck up. He's actually got to do his job here. So that's tough here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Ken and Donna Brown, apparently, his parents, asked Stephen and Debbie at one point during this time period...
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
To go on a motorcycle ride with them to Elmira which is about 15 miles away it's a scenic journey there so they went to a restaurant and apparently at the restaurant this is in front of his parents by the way you know four of them are sitting there eating he lashed out and yelled at Debbie for taking too long to order. This is Stephen's parents remembering this.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Disclaimer time. Names are hard, too. Let's be honest here. Disclaimer time. This is a comedy show. It is. We are comedians. There will be jokes here and there will be dead people here. The stories are 100 percent real. Unfortunately, they are not, you know, embellished for comedic effect or anything silly like that. These are real crazy stories that are just nuts.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This is so, you know, he said his Stephen's mother said that he was screaming. Can't you make up your mind? That's why I hate taking you. That's what I hate about taking you out. I guess we won't be going out to eat anymore. He's screaming at her at the table.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That is crazy. Like, if everyone else is ready to order and it's a half hour later and you're still not ready to go, you start making, like, jokey comments. Like, hey. Why don't you just order one of everything? Or, you know, what don't you want?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Well, at that point, you start helping the person. Well, what don't you want? What sounds gross? Okay, let's narrow it down to something and let's all help.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, you are lettered, aren't you? It's not in Sanskrit, you know. Yeah. Can you make your ex? So this is crazy, though, to do this. Not only in public, but in front of your parents, too, is fucking nuts. So Donna, the mom, said Debbie broke down in tears. And Donna and Ken, the parents, said they just sat there embarrassed as all fuck. Just what do you do here?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She also said we talked to him and said that's no way to treat a person. And then the rest of the meal was uncomfortable. Sounds like it would be. Yeah. And it's more money than you expected, and your whole math is thrown off, and it's awful. Learn more at Chime.com slash Small Town Murder. Chime is great with that stuff.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I mean, you can't beat if things are a little tight, especially around the holidays or after the holidays. You need that money a couple days early. You go grocery shopping. You got a car payment due. There's so many things that don't. Thank you. Thank you. Banking services and debit cards provided by Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A., members FDIC.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible CHI members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs. And now back to the show. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our stylish friends at Quince.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And you can do like we did, upgrading our stuff here while still being a very reasonable price. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. It's all quality stuff. You're going to love it. Trust us. It looks good. And I've got the leather jacket. It's a very high-quality item. Real nice, soft leather.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And the only way to the only way to tell them properly is to have to sit back and laugh once in a while. Oh, my God. Not at the gross parts. That's the thing. We're not like, oh, my. And then her head got cut off. Hilarious. That's never fun. But when people try to do crazy dismounts and everything else, and I think I can get away with this, that's hilarious, objectively.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Jimmy's got his linen pants he's rocking.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But the parents try like they didn't just ignore it. They said, hey, you don't treat people like that. And I think that's probably been his whole life. But he just doesn't listen. I bet the other two sons are upstanding people.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Normal people, not abusive lunatics. You know what I mean? Because none of that came from his home life or anything. His parents didn't have any kind of relationship like that. So this isn't something he saw at home.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't know. So fall of 1998, Debbie decided that's about enough of this bullshit. I have had it with this. She's ready to go. getting screamed at in restaurants and it's crazy. So she announced to family members that she and Steven were getting separated. And this is when she starts telling everybody that he's been, he's been abusing me for almost 20 years now.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So I'm fucking done with this shit. Um, yeah. One of her, uh, her friends said that she told me he once held a gun to her head and threatened to kill her. We knew about that. Um, So she has to figure out how to leave him because she's scared of him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So she's got to do some Julia Roberts sleeping with the enemy shit here and escape basically. So she left her car at work so she would think so that he would think she was at work.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And give her a couple hours of a head start to get out of here. A friend at her job hid her car on her last day of work so Stephen wouldn't know she was there also. So she hid it somewhere else.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So he thought she wasn't at work. Meanwhile, she was at work on her last day and then she went to where the car was and fucking took off. Okay. So she took the children to a battered women's shelter in Oswego.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But what we don't do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
In New York, yeah, in this area. So Stephen manages somehow to get in touch with Debra on the phone at the battered women's shelter.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Apparently, call screener isn't a job that's there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, if they can talk to him, I would assume every time the phone rings, you'd just go, well, whose abusive husband is this calling otherwise? Yeah. So, yeah, she got in touch with Debra and arranged for her to talk to his parents, his brother Randy, and his best friend Larry. Okay. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Stephen told Larry Brown, no relation, by the way, that Debbie had left him because he had videotaped her having sex with a co-worker in a lunchroom and then confronted her with it. That's what he said. He said she just left because she was cheating on me and I caught her on tape and then she got embarrassed and took off. Nothing to do with abuse or anything like that.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Because we're assholes. Yes. But we're not scumbags. That's how that works. See how it goes? So that's going to be a good time. If you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together for any reason whatsoever, I don't know. We disagree. But, hey, you have the right to disagree with that. And no complaining later. Let's just say that.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't know how he would film their lunchroom.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. And usually the lunchroom's the hottest place at work to get it on, too. That's where you really want to get it on.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Everybody has access. Wide open door all the time. And the room's stinking like a fucking filthy microwave also. That's just terrific.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Some asshole made microwave popcorn. Somebody else made fish in it 15 minutes ago.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
We're all dealing with it now. He also said that his wife had been fired from a job at Ithaca College after she made sexual advances to another woman. So that's what he told his friend. He's like, listen, my wife. You know, skanky. She's fucking everybody. Women, I don't even know, I can't even, not even around the ladies I can trust her. She just doesn't care. She can't get enough.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So much so that she got fired for it in the 90s when you could like, you know, it wasn't quite as strict in terms of.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You could actually ask people out and probably grab them if you wanted to back then. I don't know what the hell's going on. So that's what they, she got fired for that. But he also told his friend he'd do anything to get her back. Because according to him, she sounds like a real prize that you'd want to get back. So Debbie acquiesces and calls Larry Brown, his friend, to talk about the marriage.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So now she's talking to an intermediary who is not a mediator. It's his friend.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No, exactly. It's fucking ridiculous. I know too much. This friend said she said she was scared and needed time away to think. She said she knew she had done wrong and she wanted to get her life back again. That's what Larry Brown says.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So Debbie called Larry again here. They went back and forth a couple of times. Now, while Debbie is in the shelter, Stephen is going to hang out with his brother Randy a lot. And Randy Brown here said that, quote, he was pretty devastated. I helped him buy new appliances for the house and he scrubbed everything. He wanted her to come back and promise that things would be different.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So it's going to be all different now. I scrubbed down the fucking the burners on the stove.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You know, it's going to be different. Randy said that Stephen had a strong personality and wasn't afraid to speak his mind, but he didn't think it was an abusive relationship at all or anything like that. He's just that Stephen's just got a strong mind. He then says, quote, He's not a violent person. Not a violent person at all. He had a temper, but as far as a physical abuser, no.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I'm sure she got slapped a few times, but it wasn't a daily thing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So that said, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs. What do you say here?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That was in 1999. So I'm sure she got slapped a few times. Yes, that's called abuse. You can't slap your fucking partner. That's called violence, Larry. Yeah, that is not okay. But it wasn't a daily thing. Oh, well, then it's fine then. Yeah. I mean, I take a slap every once in a while. Yeah. Christ. Every once in a while. Dinner's not what I wanted. Of course, I'm going to get smacked.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
What are you crazy? Jesus, that's insane. He said, I'm not saying that it was right, but I've known him all my life and he wasn't a violent person. If he smacks his wife, he's a violent person. I have never. I've been married. I was married for 15 years to someone I didn't even get along with. Never fucking laid a hand on her ever. You know what I mean? Like, that's not an option. Sorry.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I'm sure she got slapped around like that is.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
A few times. She got slapped a few times. It wasn't a daily thing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Wow. Debbie also talked to her mother-in-law, who she kind of trusted, I guess. Donna said, quote, she said he was being extremely abusive. She told me he gave her a black eye last winter. At the time, they had said Steve hit her with a snowball and I believed her.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's not violent. I slap around once in a while. That was Randy, the brother that said that. Oh, yeah. The other brown. So she said she goes on to say we talked to Debbie and said they should try to give it one more chance. Oh, this is. Yeah. His mom, Donna. We said, you have a family and you can't just throw it away. We didn't know how bad it really was. If we did, I would never have done that.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
At least the mom knows. I wouldn't have convinced her to go back if I knew there was abuse. We just thought they weren't trying hard enough. Like a lot of people don't today. This is this is why you mind your own fucking business and don't worry about whether people are effort.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Returns home. Stephen called Larry Brown and asked if they could come to church with his family. Hey, can I piggyback on you guys and go to church? They had never done that before, apparently. This was a new thing. So Larry Brown saw this as, wow, they're really turning over a new leaf of the relationship. He said... Multiple friends said they looked like high school lovers at the time.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They were just all over each other and arms around each other walking and everything was hunky dory, man. Everything was great.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Let's go on a trip, shall we? Here we go. We are going to Maine this week.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He didn't beat her up for a couple of weeks and clean the house.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But the problem is that shit isn't going to last forever. And it lasts about two weeks.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. Yeah. If this guy could control himself, he wouldn't have been hitting you for the last 20 years. So obviously he can't control himself. So I would be even madder like, oh, so you can control it, but you just chose not to for 20 years. Well, fuck you then. I'd be even madder at that. So December 21st, 1998, Donna here came home from one day from the fuel company, I guess, the mom.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They were still there before they went to Florida. Okay. And she sees Donald Wood Jr., Debbie's brother, helping Debbie move out of the house. That's what she comes home to. So Donna Brown said she was crying. I said, oh, no, is it bad again? And she said, yes. She told me he tried to strangle her.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's a nice place. We love Maine, obviously. This is far west Maine here. This is... the westernmost town in Maine, as a matter of fact.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Is it bad again? Should I not have convinced you to do this? Right. No, Donna. So apparently this wasn't the first one, too, since she's been back. She said that Stephen choked her and ripped out her belly button ring.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Which would hurt. And then Debbie took the kids and said, fuck off and moved to Maine. Yeah. Here. Her brother, Woody, and that's what they call him. And that's Donald Wood Jr. Since they're both Donalds, they go by, give him Woody. And her father, Donald Wood Sr., drove to New York to pick them up.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And they moved into Donald Wood Jr., her brother's mobile home on Lower Middle Road in Lebanon, Maine. Okay. Yeah. So, um, Debbie said that he's going to try to find me like it's going to happen. So this is going to be a thing. Um, she said that he quote, he grabbed my ears and said, this is a promise, not a threat. If you leave me again with my kids, I'll kill you and the entire family.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I will kill everybody. So, you know, she believed him. Yeah. It was taking him at face value on that.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And Steven believed, ah, she'll be back.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This has happened before. I sweet talker. She comes back. No worries. This is bullshit. He even to the extent this happened, by the way, she left on December 21st. She takes off.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He goes out and buys Christmas gifts for the kids. Put it under a tree that he put up. He puts up a tree, decorates the house, puts lights up all this shit thinking they'll all be back by Christmas. Ain't no thing. It's Christmas. She's not going to stay gone the whole time. But then Christmas comes, he can't get a hold of her anywhere, no one will tell him where she is, and she ain't coming back.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Absolutely. So as far away from the ocean as you can get here. It is called Lebanon, Maine, just like the Middle Eastern place here, Lebanon. It's about an hour to Portland, Maine, over by the sea there, and it's about an hour to Concord, New Hampshire, in the opposite direction.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So he's sitting there with a Christmas tree. That's a sad Christmas for this asshole. A deservedly sad Christmas.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No shit. So Stephen tried to turn to Debbie's relatives to find her. Her uncle Ed said, he called me, my wife, other family members too. Now Edward Strong, who he called, her uncle is... a police chief in the area as well. Um, he said that Steven had threatened to commit suicide. He was just a time bomb waiting to happen. So basically she moves in with her brother.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's a Brown double wide trailer in Lebanon. That's where they live. And this is with her brother, um, Woody Donald jr. And her brother, his brothers are her brother's longtime girlfriend, Linda Malcom Malcom, uh, And also living there was a friend of his brother's named Christopher Brouillard. So there's three people in the double wide already.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. Let's bring one more in. Let's bring one more in with two kids and everything. But, you know, that's your sister. Obviously, you'd want her to come there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's tough. It's at 61 Lower Middle Road. It's a mobile home. It's on a wooded road about a half mile off Route 202. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
so um she also filed for a protective order and a divorce right away too oh she's fucking serious this time yeah and so she's settling in you know living here um now donna brown um steven's mom here lived next door to them for a long time but she said after hearing from other people what's been going on she said she was shocked How bad? She couldn't believe it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, she couldn't believe it because when she files for divorce and goes for a protective order, she goes to court and Donna hears what's been happening here. And Donna said, my eyes were opened that day. It was disgusting. I never knew. I really didn't know that kind of thing was going on. If we had known he was hitting her, I would have turned him in even if he is my own son.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, I guess she thought that was semi. I don't understand it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I guess. But the parents seem to, they don't take a shit. That's one of the things. Like, they're not big on, you know, oh, just forgive him. It's okay.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It sits right in the middle there, and it's three hours to Old Town, Maine, which is our last Maine episode, the Facebook catfish killer. Oh, yeah. I remember that one. That was a fucking weird one. Whenever social media is involved in murder, it's always strange. So this is in York County, area code 207 here. Little bit of history, just a drop here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
When they know what's going on. So it's very strange for him to come out of this relationship and out of that family.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So Debbie started working as a maid, and she starts dating Chris Brouillard as well. Yeah, yeah. Who's a 30 year old guy. He is described as a mud racing buddy of her brothers who lives there as well. They love to go mudding. That's their thing. Going out mudding. They built their own trucks for it. They build help. They build other people's trucks for it. Yeah, that's what they do.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And Chris Brouillard, Debbie told family, Chris said, I'm not going to let anybody hurt you. So, yep, I guess they said that Whitney, the daughter, said that this new life and her mom's new relationship and everything being chill in the trailer was a huge weight off my shoulders at 10, 11 years old like that. Kids feel the stress. You know what I mean? It's on them.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So this she said, oh, we were actually like living a normal life, not in fear. We weren't wondering what's going to happen when the door opens. Is dad going to come in and be pissed off? So, yeah, this is going on. Neighbors around say everybody that lives in the trailer is friendly, sometimes a bit rowdy.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They get partying a bit over here. I mean, they are mud racing trailer dwellers, so there's going to be a party once in a while. Let's be honest here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's more than that. One neighbor said they would sometimes go out and shoot at one or two in the morning.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Jesus. I'm going to go out and get the guns and go do some target practice at two in the morning is definitely a drunk thing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Let's go shooting. This is drunk shooting in the dark. Yeah. He said, as long as they didn't shoot in my direction, I didn't mind. That's what the neighbor said. I guess he goes to bed late, too. So fuck it. Yeah. Now, Debbie said she felt safe in Lebanon. She's working at York Cleaning Company as a maid, so she's getting a little life going on here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Stephen also, I guess, sort of moves on, but not really. How so? Well, he finds a girlfriend, but continues to tell her how he's going to go get his wife and kids back, which is very weird, I would say, right? That's not normal. That's not moving on. That's not moving on at all. And what's wrong with this lady who's like, okay.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
All right. Well, I'll just be riding on the back of your motorcycle until you do. Like, no one's doing that.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Well, who the fuck is Patricia Teeter?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
T-E-E-T-E-R, which sounds like an affectionate name for a small pair of boobs. You got some nice little teeters on you there. Look at that. All right. I like them small. I don't mind. Yeah, nice teeters.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
There's some teeters on her, but they're nice, though. Nice little teeters on her. So she's 39 years old. She's a divorcee as well and raising two teenage daughters. So great. Three women to put Steven in the middle of is perfect. Um, yeah, she had been through a difficult divorce apparently. So a mutual friend of theirs said, well, your wife left you and you're having a hard time with it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And she went through a difficult divorce. So you guys might be perfect for each other and hooks them up. Um, other friends said, went to Teeter and we're like, don't go out with that fucking lunatic. That guy's a lunatic. Like this one mutual friends, the only person that said this is a good matchup. Everyone else was like, no, no, no. I guess Teeter worked at W.H.C.U.A.M.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It was first granted this area for a town in 1733, very old, by the General Court of Massachusetts Bay as the township at the head of the Berwick.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
radio and a newscaster there who worked there. Teeter was a receptionist there. She wasn't on air talent or anything like that, said that she told him about Stephen and the strange things he was saying. She said that Stephen had been threatening his wife in front of her, like, I'll do this, I'll do that, saying, quote, she's going to get it if she wins custody of these children in court.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She's going to get it. Man, so she's at work. Oh, my new boyfriend says his ex-wife's going to get it if he doesn't get the kids. He's just a wonderful guy. So this guy at work said, quote, I told her to back off. You have your own life. You don't need to get involved with this guy.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And another talk show host from the radio station said that Patricia Teeter told him that Steve had threatened to kill himself. And so this guy said both of those things. I'm going to kill her. I'm going to kill myself. These are all red flags you should be looking at in a new boyfriend.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This guy, the talk show host guy, said whenever there's a suicide threat, you need to consider them at risk of committing homicide as well. A majority of times when there's a suicide, there's also a homicide at the same time.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't know if that's the majority of times people commit suicide, but it happens.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't think so. I think a lot of people just kill themselves. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Murder-suicide is much more rare than regular suicide. It's got to be, right? Anecdotally, off the top of my head, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Exactly, yeah. I don't remember. Did Phil Hartman's wife kill herself? Yeah. Did she? She did, right? She did, yeah. She did. There's a murder-suicide.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Oh, shit. Well, yeah, I guess those are going to be really long.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Late stage murder-suicide, that would be.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't think so at that point. I don't think you can. So February 1999 here. Debbie visits the Office of Colonial Homes. That's a company that builds homes in Lebanon, in Lebanon, Maine, to speak to a saleswoman about buying a mobile home. She was ready to settle down. Then she returned a week later to fill out an application as well.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The woman who was working with her said she said her divorce would soon be over and she was looking to purchase a home soon. So filling out an application. Now, March 22nd, 23rd, somewhere in here, 1999. A New York court grants Debbie Brown custody of both children who are at this point 16 and 11. So that day she also gets the court to do a restraining order against him as well.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I guess so. But they said they basically gave this to about 60 families given a charter, but no one came here for like 10 years. So what if you started a town and no one showed up? That's what happened here, apparently. So the first meeting house was built in 1753, and then it kind of went on from there. And then in 1767, it was finally incorporated as Lebanon, and it was Maine's 23rd town.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So Randy Brown, Stephen's brother, said that Stephen was fucking furious because Debbie showed up at court with her new boyfriend, Chris Bruglia.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Pissed him off good. Yeah. He had Patricia there as well, but she's not allowed to do that. He was also infuriated even more when he came home after the hearing and found out that his wife's relatives had taken everything that belonged to Debbie and the children out of his house. All the children, shit, everything. Yeah. While he was at court, they went in and cleaned the fucking place out.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, yeah, just to take with her all the kid shit and all her shit. Not his shit. They left his shit, but the kid shit and her shit. So anyway, he was infuriated anyway, and then he walked in the door and found that out and was like, you can imagine the choking that he would be doing if there was someone to choke.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I mean, there's nothing. You can't even say you can't have your stuff then. There's nothing to control.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yep. So, yeah. Now, at this point, apparently, somehow the money, I guess he's supposed to pay child support. He's supposed to do all this stuff. He can't afford his truck anymore. He's got a brand new 99 Ford Expedition, which he probably shouldn't have bought. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
At the time, that was a $50,000 truck, $55,000 truck, which now it's a $100,000 truck. But I mean, that was at the time a very expensive truck. So, yeah. And Randy, the brother, said that, quote, it really sank in when he found out Debbie had a boyfriend. Then the judge said he lost his family, lost his kids, and he was starting to lose his material possessions.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
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Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Things happened, and he didn't have control over them anymore.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yep, and we know Stephen does not like not having control. No. So the next day, the day after the hearing, Patricia Teeter tells her boss at the radio station she needs a few days off to go up to Maine with her boyfriend. She said she'd return in time to chaperone her 12-year-old daughter's class trip to Washington, D.C. later in the week, but she's got to run up there for a few days. Okay. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Now, Debbie, meanwhile, she goes back to Maine and has a nice week. Nice week. She does things with the kids, her brother and Chris. They went mud racing. They hung out. They went fishing. And, you know, they did family things, they said. We just hung out and did family things. Yeah, Maine summer, not summer, but spring family living here. So March 28th, 1999.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's a Sunday, as we know, as Monday morning is 1257 a.m. So, anyway, one of the friends said, I sensed something was wrong that day. Now, that afternoon, Debbie and Chris Brouillard took the kids to the Holiday Inn in Portsmouth to swim in the pool. Oh, the Holiday Inn pool.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't know. And it's maybe it's a heated pool because it's March 28th in Maine.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She said then she saw the man because he was outside. They were inside. Then she saw the man get into a car. So she went out and looked and the car had New Hampshire license plates.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And she got really nervous and they took the kids home. They were like, let's get out of here. Let's get out of here. I think that's Stephen.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So Chris told her not to worry about it. Look, I'm here with you. Don't sweat it. I'm not going to let this guy do anything to you. Now, as they went to bed that night, Debbie noticed that the motion lights behind the house kept turning on and off. No, but they live in the woods. So believe me, as someone who has motion lights and lives in the woods, it's a deer. It's a fucking skunk.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So this is early, early man stuff here. I guess farming was good here. There's some good level ground in this area with extensive pine plains to the northwest of this area. The chief crop here, hay. Oh, is that right? Just hay. What are we growing? Dried out grass. Okay, great. Let's do it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
There's tons of animals, wind, everything else. So they were doing that. And Chris told her it's an animal. So we have tons. Don't worry about it. Just go to sleep. No one's stalking you. You're good. Then at 1257 a.m., we get a domestic violence call from Whitney.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Now you go, where's Chris? What's going on? Where is everybody? Well, let's find out here. Okay. This is what happened, according to Whitney. In, you know, 1230 in the morning here, a woman frantically knocks on their door. Okay. OK, of the trailer. She said she was having car trouble. So her this is Debbie's brother, Donald Wood Jr. He's a mechanic. He says, well, come out here and help you.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No problem. I mean, it's a small town. Someone knocks on your door, says they have car trouble. You help them. That's all there is to it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Let's let's give it a shot here. Let's go. So he walks outside and goes to help. OK, half hour later. Another knock at the door. Now, he is nowhere to be seen, Donald Wood Jr. It's this woman again, same woman.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Now, Whitney answers the door, and it's the same woman again. She said that, yeah, the guy that came out, Donald, there, he's working on my car right now, but he told me to come back and ask if you could get Chris. I don't know who that is. He just said tell whoever's in there to tell Chris to come help him. He needs help from Chris. Okay. So, you know, I don't know. Whatever. So they said, OK.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Whitney went and told Chris and Chris said, well, I mean, if he needs help out there in the dark, I'm not going to tell him to fuck off. So Chris gets up and heads out, follows the woman down into the dark, basically out into the street and to the car. So within 15 minutes, more knock on the door.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Okay, now she knocks on the door and asks for Donald's girlfriend, Linda, and says, I've been told to tell Linda to come and to bring her Chevy Blazer as well. Not just to walk out with me, but to get in the Chevy Blazer and come there because they need it. They need it. Now, by now, Debbie Brown is awake and hearing stuff going on in the living room. She's hearing her daughter's voice talking.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She's like, what the fuck? What the fuck is going on out there? So she was thinking that something's not right here. And I guess one of the things she thought and she told her daughter is why would they keep sending the woman back? We don't even know. Wouldn't one of our people come back and say this shit? Like why would they send her back?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And they're not saying, like, go get my tool or go get this. They want people and cars and shit, which is like, how many people do you need? And why do you need a Chevy Blazer to fix a car? It doesn't make any sense.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Unless they need a jump. I don't understand it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So Debbie gets out and gets in her own car. She goes, OK, yeah, I'll go with you. Gets in her own car and is about to pull out of the driveway here. She's pulling out of the driveway. And then out of nowhere, Whitney hears her pull back up the driveway and I mean, laying on the horn and screaming. He's here. He's here. He's here. He's here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, also at the Salmon River Falls and the Little River were water power sites for mills. Lebanon had four saw mills, three grist mills, a shingle mill. It's making shingles, pumping shingles out. A wood carding mill, or wool carding, not wood carding. Wood carding with a D, card. And a tannery, of course, as well. Sure.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Oh, laying on the fucking horn in the middle of nowhere, you know, in the middle of the night. Now, the neighbors don't mind because they don't mind gunshots. But this is loud. So, wow, that is fucking crazy. Apparently, Debbie had gone out and gotten into the blazer that was requested. Linda's blazer. And she ended up she pulled back in because she saw a rental car parked next to the driveway.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The same one that she saw at the Holiday Inn.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's why she fucking went back up the driveway. She started yelling for her brother and Chris. She didn't know they were gone because she was sleeping kind of half out of it for the beginning of this. She tried to use her cell phone to call 911 but couldn't get it to work.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Fucking out of not in service range. Yeah, thanks a lot. Exactly. So she starts screaming and yelling, he's here, he's here, help me, help me, help me. Because she thought the guys were in the house.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And they could come out and help her. But they didn't. And it's only Whitney in the house. She's the only person in there. Oh, no. And Linda, the girlfriend, she might be still sleeping. Right. So this is from the window. Whitney watches two armed figures descend on her mother's car, smash in the window and climb in the car and take off with her. With her in the car. With Debbie in the car.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yes, so this is why she's calling 911 frantically going, I just watched this crazy shit out my window when my mother was gone and all this shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Stephen Brown, by the way, obviously is the culprit here. Right. When she was backing out of the driveway, Stephen broke the window and climbed into the passenger side of the Blazer with a shotgun in her face.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yes, and ordered her to drive to a nearby parking lot. Um, and, and when they get to the parking lot, he tells her to get out of the car and then Debbie is forced into another car with Patricia Teeter sitting there and him. Okay. And he keeps telling her, if you do as I say, I won't hurt you. If you do as I say, I won't hurt you. Okay. This is fucking nuts.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And Debbie doesn't even know this other woman. She's never met her, saw her before. She doesn't know who the fuck is this lady. That's why she was effective at it as a door knocker. So, yeah, this is wild. And Patricia Teeter is trying to keep telling her to we're not going to hurt you. Just do what we want and we're not going to hurt you. Don't worry about it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Patricia then tells her this is fucking insane. Tells her, quote, we're all going to live happily ever after. We're both going to be his wife now.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She's fucking wackier than anybody else in the story. No kidding. She is, wow, she is like so abused that she just, that's her role is just secondary person.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Holy shit, we're all going to live happily ever after. We're both going to be his wife now. It's okay.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's going to be fine. That's what she's telling her. This is going to be great. The guy you're terrified of who you want nothing to do with, now you're going to be in a threesome marriage with him. Isn't that great?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Wow. That is fucking nuts. And they also said, hey, don't worry about your brother and his friend there because we just we tied them up and put them behind the house. So they're back there. So whoever finds them, you know, they're just tied up behind the house. They're all right here now back at the house because the police show up.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The cops show up. They've been called.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Now, all the cars are gone now. Everything is done. But the cops show up, and they immediately start looking around the house with flashlights for clues here of anything. And behind the house, about 50 feet from the house...
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And it grew from there, and it hasn't grown very much from there, we'll say. It's still a pretty small place. We've never been here. We like Maine, but never been here. Let's find some reviews of this place and see what we got here. Maybe they'll know more than we do. Let's see. Five stars. I love the town I live in.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
they find chris brouillard and donald wood jr partially buried in the woods whoa very dead um they both suffered head trauma and multiple stab wounds what in the hell yeah um that's fucking crazy so whitney tells the cops my mother has been taking but taken by my father period that's what happened Period. So she said, we just had a custody hearing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He tried to tell the family judge his ex-wife was unstable, and he said that she abused him. All this shit. Now, inside the kidnapping car here, they drive all night, the three in the car. This is Patricia, Steven, and Debbie. And it's fucking nuts. They drive all night. They stop in Hampton, New Hampshire, to pick up Patricia's Oldsmobile Achieva. Which is probably the worst.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
There's no achieving in an Achieva. Put it that way. You have Achieva'd nothing if you have an Oldsmobile Achieva.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It was like rounded. It kind of looked like a Taurus-y type thing, I believe, the Achieva. Like a mix between a Taurus and a Lumina is what I remember.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. 90s, late 90s midsize sedan. Were they four doors? Rounded edges. I don't fucking know. Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She was a rounded off thing for some reason in the late 90s, but I could be wrong. So Achieva in tow. Yeah. They pick up the Achieva. They're eventually going to drop off the rental car, return it after wiping it down thoroughly of all fingerprints and anything else. So they're heading toward New York. They're heading west toward New York State.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And during the drive, Stephen starts just harassing Debbie with questions, saying, do you love me? Things like that, which clearly not. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. And she would say no. And then she'd say maybe. I don't know. And she was essentially trying to get him to not lose his temper at this point and, you know, murder her in the car.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Exactly. That's the answer. That's the one here. What doesn't get me killed? So in the early the next morning, Tim Wood, who is Debbie's brother, calls Donna Brown, Stephen's mother, and wakes her up. And he said, where's Steve? Where's Steve? And she said, he's at work. And I guess the brother then, Tim Wood, started crying.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Even though all we have is a Dunkin' Donuts, spelled out not like D-O, nuts, like donuts. Dunkin' Donuts. And our local pizza shop, it's the best. I highly doubt that my high school has kids from my town, Berwick and North Berwick. All our towns come together. Towns together create an even bigger community.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And he said there'd been a double homicide in Maine and Donnie's involved and we don't know what's going on. So Donna Brown said, well, let me go. I'll go make sure he's at work. So she apparently had a broken knee, but she crutched her way out behind her house to look and see if the fuel truck was there or gone.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And she saw Stephen's oil delivery truck parked in the driveway and knew he wasn't at work. And she said, quote, I didn't think I'd be able to make it back to the house. I had this sick sense that there would be something wrong. So even the mother's like, oh, so family said they think it is. It must have been the restraining order that did it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Debbie's uncle, who is the Kittery police chief, Edward Strong, said that's definitely what set him off. The judge awarded her full custody with no visitation rights for him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
oh shit yeah because of the abuse they said no anything for now it's a complete restraining order against you can't go near your family um yeah and um it's interesting so the um that's fucking crazy so there's a obviously a multi-state manhunt now because they don't even know what goddamn direction they went in and right but they have no fucking clue we know he didn't go east
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, we know that for sure. So they're searching everywhere. They got helicopters searching. They're searching all over the place. They find at STS Construction Company, they find a black Chevy Blazer registered to Linda Malcolm, the girlfriend there, who lived at the home. Now, she was unharmed at home. Yeah. And inside the vehicle, though, there's broken glass and bloodstains in the vehicle.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So they're like, oh, this isn't good. It's a lot. Now, they're also they know Patricia Teeter is missing as well. So they're looking for her. But they released a sketch of her but did not identify her as definitely the woman traveling with Brown. Just a person we like to talk to, basically.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Person of interest of chit chatting with here. So police are searching for Debbie's 1999 Ford Expedition and a black 1996 Oldsmobile Achieva owned by Teeter. Both have New York plates and the authorities caution people that Stephen may be armed. A spokesman for the Maine police said that the only lead was a possible sighting at about 3 p.m. of the suspect's car with a man and a woman inside.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It was on Route 13 in Leo Minster, Massachusetts. But it wasn't reported until like 5.30, two and a half hours later. So obviously nobody could go look at it. That's not the direction they were going in anyway. It doesn't matter. It wasn't them.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The authorities in Maine said they didn't know that Debbie even had a protection order against her husband, but they did say it does apply even though it's not in the state it was issued in. Right. Now, Teeter's work friend here, he said, I can't believe that Patricia would have gone with Steve if she knew that he planned to kidnap his estranged wife.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't think that that was part of the plan to murder people and kidnap her. This person said, quote, She's not a saint. She's no Mother Teresa, but she's a very level headed person. OK, and he worries that Teeter is also going to be murdered here as well. So there's already two murders and possibly going to be two more here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So they said one of the friends said the only thing we can hope for is that he hasn't done any harm to her. Hopefully he'll come to his senses and release her unharmed. Yeah. One one neighbor said they're optimistic that Debbie's going to be found safe, but they'd also fear the worst. Obviously, what a dumb thing to say.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. We just I mean, we just built one school for all you. And they're trying to put a positive spin. A lot of people complain that if you go to high school in this area, it's a long drive to the high school because that's the closest one because it's small. Here is four stars. Lebanon's a very quiet and cute town.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I mean, you know, I'm optimistic, but she's the this neighbor said that they're all distraught over the deaths of the two guys because they were good guys. One guy said they were just nice people. That's what they did. They help people. And look what happened to them.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This is why you don't help. This is why you mind your own business. So Stephen's mom here, Stephen's friends and family and mom and everybody else are trying to figure out what the fuck is happening. How did we not know this was going to happen? Donna Brown, the mom, wondered if she could have done anything to prevent this. Maybe I could have helped.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But people say that this type of thing, and domestic violence experts, that sort of thing, they say that this is... A lot of times you're not going to see it. So there's no way to know it's behind closed doors and they keep it behind closed doors on purpose.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You know, this is, you know, one of the director of research and criminal justice for the New York State Office of Domestic Violence said very often batterers have a Jekyll and Hyde personality. He may seem like the nicest guy in the world to people on the outside, but behind closed doors, he's a very different person for his wife and family. So where the fuck could they be? Okay.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Well, Teeter gets on the phone with a friend from work. They get a call. And she said that she was on a weekend camping trip with Steve. So she's like, I don't know what the hell any of that's all about. Because they're like, dude, there's a lot of shit going on. And she's like, I don't know. I'm on a camping trip.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And the friend said, dude, your name's on the news in connection with murders and kidnappings. This is not good, bro. Like, you need to fix this shit. Teeter said wouldn't give her location, but she did tell her friend she could see the Albany skyline from the parking lot, which is a sad skyline to look at Albany. Not much going on there. Not much of a skyline. So around 5.45 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
this day, they check into two rooms at the Econo Lodge in East Greenish, New York.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's outside of Albany. There's, I guess...
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
you know they get in there there's two different rooms one for steven and debbie and one for patricia this is weird as fuck right it's getting real weird um i guess steven pulled the phone out of the wall and went and gave it to teeter like here you keep this in your room with you i need you to be in your own room while i'm in here with my ex-wife that's wild shit okay then we'll all be happy together excellent when and break when do we get to thruffle
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. What is that going on? So Stephen went into the bathroom and scrubbed himself off. He's got blood and all sorts of shit on him. After a while, he came out with his clothes and Patricia took them away to go wash them because they have blood on them and shit. So Debbie was kept in the room. She had no idea that there was even a search to find her.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She has no idea if anybody knows that she's gone. She has no fucking idea. Anything. She doesn't know her brother and her boyfriend are dead. She knows nothing at this point. Just sitting in the room where her daughter is. The two here, Teeter and Steve, were telling her that they were tied up behind the garage and gagged. So that's it. So at one point, Stephen was out of the room.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Everything is pretty far apart, but there's lots of busy towns nearby to go to and do fun things like go into the movies or going shopping. Right. While I'm usually home during the colder season, summer is pretty fun here, and there are lakes in town to go cool off and a few ice cream shops to get a cool treat.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She tried – Debbie tried to turn on the TV to get the news on maybe and get something. But when she heard him coming back, she had to turn it off quick. So I guess she would – Patricia was asking Debbie – She was telling Debbie the whole time, look, if we get caught, you'll say I wasn't involved in this, right? Like lady to lady, right? You'll be cool about this, right?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. So Debbie would tell them, yeah, yeah, no, don't worry about it. Yeah, no, you're good. You're cool. You know, that's fine. Now, during this, Stephen doesn't beat her, but they won't get into exactly what it is. But I think we can guess he does in the court documents sexually assaults her twice over the course of the night. I think we can probably extrapolate from that.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And he kept telling her that all of this is her fault.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
All your fault, Debbie. So Steve told her he'd release her in the morning, but I doubt she believed that. You know what I mean? You know, I don't think so here. I died. I mean, it's going to probably kill Teeter, too. Who the hell knows? So Stephen kept telling her, though, that he loves her. But I love you and I want to be with you, but I'm not going to be taken alive, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
If I get caught, you know, whatever. You know, she's used to this. She's dealt with him before, but now she's trapped in a motel room with a guy with a sawed-off shotgun and an assault rifle laying on the bed in front of her. So this isn't good. He kept saying that he wasn't going to go to jail and that there's going to be bloodshed and all this type of shit. So, wow. 6 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Somehow, based on her friend telling the cops it's a motel that you can see the Albany skyline from, they check out all the hotels in a circle around Albany, all the motels. Yeah. And they find their car in the motel parking lot.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So they find the fucking Econo Lodge and the SWAT team comes in. Shortly before they surround the area, shortly before 6 a.m., they heard explosions. They did flash grenades and flash bangs and kicked the doors down and everything else. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
they find steven they find debbie she's alive wow he didn't kill her she's in the fucking room so there's obviously they take everybody debbie said next thing you know i'm in a cruiser the officer pulled the handcuffs off of me and said i can't believe we got you out of there alive no shit holy shit like there was we thought no way we're finding this woman alive no fucking way especially you already killed two people why the hell would he leave he was gonna do it today right
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yep. Act like they were on a camping trip because that was apparently their alibi here. Yeah. So they take everybody to the police station here. Stephen insists to the police that he, quote, didn't want any of this to happen. Well, you know, you kind of did a lot here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The town is also working on getting more stores in, like the new Dunkin' Donuts and the new shop being built next to it. Apparently that's the pizza place. It just hadn't arrived yet. Oh, okay. Yeah. Overall, it's a nice town for quiet and peaceful place of residence. Sounds like a final resting place, the way they said it. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He tells a Maine state police detective that his loss in court and a letter requiring him to pay child support angered him so much that he drove to Maine with a shotgun and assault rifle and a knife and some rope to, quote, talk to his wife.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's what he brings to talk. That's what I do when I want to have a chat with anybody. I was like, well, where's my rope knife and fucking shotgun and assault rifle? So they said, well, how did you even know where she was? How did you know about that place? And you know how he knew? Restraining order.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Has to. Has to. You have to tell the person where they have to stay away from. Yeah. So it's a double-edged sword because now that you're- You can't just say, stay away from me.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Stay away from where? Then you could be in the same place as her and you wouldn't be responsible for it because they didn't tell you where to stay away from. But they said you can't go to 61 Lower Middle Road. And he went, well, that's where she is.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's wild. Debbie said in a written statement, quote, to protect abused women and children, they shouldn't be asked to give their address in court proceedings. But then the court says then it wouldn't be a legal document because you can't tell a person where to stay away from.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, there's nothing good. There's no way to do this here. And also she said that she wants to help battered women after all of this, because, you know, now. Police here are like, oh, so you went to talk with knives, guns, duct tape, rope, that sort of shit, kidnapping shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's pretty good. Yeah, it's made of hemp. It's a good one. I'm telling you. So now Teeter over here is trying to minimize her involvement at first. Right. She said she just thought Stephen wanted to talk to his ex-wife, and that's it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Not a lot there. I guess the pizza place hopefully has something you can get. Two stars. There are several aspects that I would like to see changed for the better in Lebanon, Maine. There's a limited number of resources within the town. It lacks a grocery store, pharmacy, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. You know, shit that makes a town a town.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That is fucking wild. By the way, the executive director of a family crisis center said abusers regularly tipped off to their spouses whereabouts through court records. There's no way. And they said that we can't not have them on there. So I have to tell him again.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He said that sometimes that this guy said he sometimes or she sometimes advises people not to seek protection orders if they don't want their spouses to know where they're staying. OK, they'll say, like, do you have a good safe place that no one knows where you are? Just stay there and don't fucking do this, because otherwise he's going to know right where you are.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So it's a situational thing. Yeah. And she said, you can't tell someone to stay away from some place unless you say where that someplace is. Fair enough. So Teeter, after a while, you think Teeter is going to sit in the fucking interrogation box and be hard as nails? No, no. Teeter is going to spill it. And she does.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She told the police that she and Brown left Newfield on March 27th so Stephen could talk to his wife and children about her family's interference. He asked her to bring a shotgun, and when she picked him up, she saw he was carrying a knife and some rope in a camouflage bag. They drove to New Hampshire where they rented a car and approached the mobile home.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She said that shortly before midnight, though, his anger just exploded. It was too much. So she said she lured Wood out of the house, Donald Wood Jr., by saying her car was broken down. When he got outside, Brown, Stephen, jumped out from the bushes and hit him in the back of the head with a pipe that he had picked up off the side of the road.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
On the way there, at some point, he saw a pipe on the side of the road and picked it up. Pull over. Yeah, pull over. I'm going to grab this pipe quick. So he hits Donald Wood over the head and drags him into the woods. Okay. At this point here, Teeter goes back to the house and said that Donald Wood needs Chris Brouillard's help. Right.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Now, as a as Brown was attacking Chris Brouillard the same in the same fashion, Teeter told police she had to walk away because she didn't want to or need to see what he was doing. OK, but then she returned to lure to lure Linda outside. But Debbie came out and said instead. And she said she saw her husband.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She jumped in the blazer and drove up and down, drove up the road, honking, drove up the driveway and back honking the horn and calling for help. And, you know, Whitney Brown was in there. Teeter said Stephen told his wife that he, quote, could have killed her. But all he wanted to do was talk.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Teeter said that Brown told his wife the other two guys were tied up and put in his father's in her father's camper, which was parked next to the garage. So acting on Stephen's instructions, Teeter says she rented two adjoining rooms, one for herself and one for them. And to prevent Deborah from calling for help, he ripped the phone out and gave it to her.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And during the day, she was Teeter was the one who washed the bloodstained clothes and ran errands for him. And while she was away from the motel, she called a friend who told her that there was murders and that the police are looking for you guys. So basically what happened was he hit Wood over the head and Donald Wood Jr. fights back, as we'll talk about. And then it got ugly from there. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So this is what the attorney general is going to present. Although Teeter knew that Brown had threatened violence against Debbie if he lost custody of her offspring, she nonetheless agreed to this excursion. She then watched Brown pack her car with a small arsenal, including an SKS assault rifle, a 20 gauge shotgun, ammunition for the weapons and a pair of knives.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, places people go, the center of the town. We're missing all of that. The roads are poorly taken care of. Another feature that would be a great addition are sidewalks. You know, we could just walk around. That'd be good.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He also stowed duct tape, rope and two handheld radios aboard the vehicle as well.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's terrifying. So they departed from New York early the next morning. Once in New Hampshire, they temporarily abandoned the car, Teeter's car, rented another one, went to Lebanon, Maine, located the trailer, and they spent the afternoon and evening spying on Debbie and her brother and the kids, stalking. And formulating a plan of how they were going to do this.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Okay. So, fuck, this is crazy. She said they watched them go swimming at the Holiday Inn. They pretended the rental car broke down on the roadside. And what they did was on the way back from around the holiday in time when they were going to the holiday. And I believe it was they pulled over Teeter and Steve pulled over.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He hid in the car and Teeter acted like her car was broken down on the side of the road. But Debbie drove right past them. Oh, they were hoping Debbie would pull over to help. And she didn't.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No, not not interested here. So then they watched them swim and do everything like that. So anyway, Stephen Brown picked up a piece of lead pipe by the side of the road, which he added to all of his other weapons. And obviously, we told you Teeter came up to the door.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Brown instructed Teeter to approach the trailer and attempt to lure one of the male occupants outside by claiming she was having car trouble. So Brown told her that if she succeeded, he would incapacitate them and just put them off to the side. So she did. She got Donald Wood. Brown hit him over the head with a pipe as he approached the rental car.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Not asking a lot. Unfortunately, without sidewalks, I do not feel safe running on the road. There's little to none entertainment options or shopping experiences in Lebanon. There is very little to do within the town. On the other hand, an aspect of Lebanon I do enjoy is that the houses are not extremely close together. There you go.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Wood tried to fight back and kicked Stephen in the balls. Oh. Which is great. I want to watch this scene. Clang. Ow. Fuck you, motherfucker. Pow. Oh, my balls. Jesus, get back here. This is in the pitch black in the woods. If he didn't end up dead, this would be hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yep. And then he again smashed him over the head with a lead pipe. And so badly that the medical examiner would later say that was a fatal blow with this lead pipe. But he still, Stephen still stabs his body several times and buries it under the leaves. In the neck, torso, and head stabs him. So he's angry. That's what that is. Yeah. That's what that is.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The blow to the head, according to Teeter, she said it made an eerie sound. And she said she'd never forget it. Yeah, cracking a fucking skull open is an eerie sound. So she said he then dragged Donald Wood into the woods out of Teeter's sight and stabbed him a couple of times. And obviously that that wasn't even necessary. He was already dead. So then 45 minutes goes by.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's when she went back for Chris Brouillard. And when he came out, he didn't... Steven was like, I better get a good shot in first. My balls are sore. Yeah. Yeah. It's sore balls right now. Yeah. So he hits Chris in the back of the head with a pipe and does the same thing. Drags him into the woods and all of that. Now, apparently...
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
As he's hitting him in the head, he's forcing him to the ground, questioning about his relationship with Debbie. You fucking my wife? Shit like that. According to this, he strikes him in the back of the head, drags him into the woods, stabs him in the head, neck, and chest as well. Then that's when Teeter went back to ask for Linda. And then Debbie came out instead.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And Stephen forced her at gunpoint into the rental car, drove away. And Teeter said that the whole time he was saying, you better hope we don't get pulled over because it's going to be a bloodbath if we do.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
One comes out, kill him, stack him up. Another comes out, kill him, stack him up. It's fucking really creepy. Wow. So Debbie said that her husband here, Steve, made her tell him that she loved him and that she wanted to, quote, make love to him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about Noom. Has Noom helped you? I believe it has. Oh, it's got an app. You can do tracking. It's terrific. It does. Noom builds personal plans that can meet individual needs. That's the thing. Takes into account any dietary restrictions, medical issues, other personal needs. That helps build a plan that works for you.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She said that he made promises that he would, that she would, she made, he made her promise that she would keep in touch with him if he went to prison or to the quote nut house for his crimes.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. And he's like, she's like, absolutely. I'd never leave your side. You know, she's just like, get me the fuck out of this room with the psychopath. So, yeah, she then Debbie gets, you know, she's free now. And she said, holy fuck. She talks to the press about the ordeal. She said it was a shock learning that her brother and her boyfriend were dead. And I had no idea.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And she said they said they'd take care of me and that they'd always protect me and that nothing would happen. And now they're both dead. So she feels guilty also that this is all stemming from her. They were nice enough.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
In her mind, her brother was nice enough to bring her into his house and all this, and he's even nice enough to go out at one in the morning and try to fix somebody's car, and he got killed for it.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She said also she used all of the skills she learned during her abusive marriage to survive the ordeal. She said she knew how to manage him at certain times. Certain times when he's in a rage, there's no managing him, but... After a while, I guess she learned a lot of tricks of how to manage his emotions.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Plenty of room. Why be crammed in here when there's nothing around you? People in this town, 6,437, which is too many to not have a couple of restaurants and a grocery store.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. Her uncle, the police chief, said she's a survivor. Abused women like her know how to appease the abuser to get along and wait for the opportunity to escape. And that's what she did.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Now, Steven at the jail here, he's at the jail, and his family, by the way, is like, they're talking about him like he's dead. Oh. They're talking about Steven like Steven's dead.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yep. That's what they said. Ken Brown, the dad, said, those families have lost those two boys, and we've lost our son. A lot of lives have been devastated. He's fucked. Yep. Donna Brown said the family will soon visit Stephen at the at the county jail where he's being held, the Cumberland County Jail. They said that that might be the last time they see him. They don't know.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They said we're grieving terribly over it. He's gone. There's no way to reach out to him. We love him. We just don't know what more to say. We'll always love him. He'll always be our son. He's they say like he's just dead.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's what happens. Yeah. So Debbie here, her uncle says that she is eager to return to the trailer that they lived at, her brother's lower middle road trailer here. And she said she's going to move back right in there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The uncle said she knows that Linda needs her and she needs Linda because both their people have been murdered. So they're just going to stay in this house and be like an 80s sitcom with Kate and Allie with two ladies raising their fucking kids. That's what it is. I don't know. Pulled that sitcom out of my ass from the 80s. That was good.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It was Jane Curtin. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, she's fucking great. National treasure, man. So she's doing that. The uncle said that Debbie spent most of her Wednesday hugging and kissing members of her immediate family. She also visited her dead boyfriend's parents. And the uncle said she's in shock and unable to fathom everything yet. Yeah, I don't even know how you would...
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
What are we talking about? That seems really off there. Way more female than male here, which is definitely... It's over 52% female, which is definitely different. I guess people may be retiring. Women live longer. I don't know. I know that much, but... Median age here, though, is just about around the national average. It's only 39, so I don't understand it. About 60% married.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't know how, number one, you would unpack and deal with what happened to you. Just the trauma you went through of the middle of the night, going outside, having somebody come, your ex-husband, the guy you're most scared of in the world. This isn't just some stranger. This is the boogeyman for you.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He's not stalking you outside the Holiday Inn when he fucking was. How would he know we're here? She has like a sixth sense for him of like, I know when he's around. I can smell him. I can smell it. He's just all over it. Like I said, I don't know how you'd unpack the fact that I was kidnapped, dragged two states over. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
kept in a fucking motel against my will raped multiple times by my fucking husband threatened to be murdered yeah guns are pointed at me this is like and then you survive it just that alone would be so much but on top of that they killed your boyfriend and your brother right beforehand because of you in your mind you feel so the guilt the fear i feel terrible for this lady and the trauma of the daughter had to watch it watch the kidnap dude like
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's crazy. It's unbelievable. For a 12-year-old girl to have to watch that is disturbing. And she's already terrified of her father. This is, you know, this is fucked. So Debbie said, though, she and her children will move on and move ahead with their plans for a new life, just like they had before. They're moving back into the mobile home. Her and Linda are going to be roommates.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They're going to build two new bedrooms in the back of the house. And yeah, she said last a few days after this happened, she drove back to New York and took all of their belongings from the Browns house. Anything they had left from the parents house or anything like that. The kids, Debbie said that the kids, quote, trashed their father's things.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Like, I think they just went in fucking his shit up in the house. Yeah. She said they'll tell you they don't have a father anymore. There's died. That's what they're telling people. My dad's dead. That's just what they. Yeah. What's your mom and dad like? Oh, my mom's OK. A little bit of trauma. My dad's dead.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's that. She said she wants to go back to school to become a certified nurse's assistant and hopes to tell her story of abuse to high school girls in hopes of preventing someone from, you know, same shit going on here. Yeah. Oof, that's a weird fifth period there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
We're going to bring in Debbie, and she's going to tell you the most harrowing fucking story you've ever heard in your life. Buckle up, ladies. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
What the fuck? That's going to be a rough day hearing about that. That's stressful enough. Oh, my God. See, I was worried I wasn't popular. Now I got much bigger fears. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's 50-50 the rest of the country. So this is like a very kind of family-ish kind of a place here. Race in this town, I mean, it's Maine, 98.4% white, 0.8% Hispanic, 0.8% two or more races. Wow. Yeah, small town Maine. 30% here are religious, which is 50-50 in the rest of the country.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This is about to not be funny here in the next 10 seconds.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Because she's poor. She's an abused woman who only has $2 to spend on a shirt. And you're like, ha ha, you dumb bitch.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
what the it was a little shocking moment of my of high school for me like realizing that people don't understand people are huge shit bags like nice nice of you guys to have such rosy lives jesus christ everything's perfect for you guys i guess shadow mountain did this take place at yeah those north phoenix twats
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
ah upper mid class oh fucking jerks man oh what douchebags like yeah yeah what do you who do you think you are she's wearing like this cute tank top and the guy's like where'd you get that she's like i bought it today do you like it i spent two dollars at kmart and he flew off the handle about the two dollars jesus that is i guess something that people need to hear about i do remember those slightly i remember the syphilis videos more though those were really
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I remember those where they were showing, like, actual syphilitic, you know, growths.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I was terrified of that happening to my dick however it happened. I was like, that was really, oh, God, I don't want that to happen. Jesus Christ, that looks awful. It's rotting off. But, yeah, those were terrible videos.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But I guess, I mean, this is a story that you kind of need to hear.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Maybe not at 14, but at 16, I think it's, you know, something. So she expects her divorce to become final in May. She's still married to this man. Wow. Because it's, you know, she had filed for divorce. Right. And then she said she and the kids plan to change their last name.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yes. She said Chris and I did have plans to get married in this way. We can honor his memory.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Oh, shit. Slapping it on the kids, too, is interesting. But I don't know. Whatever, I guess. Now, Steven and Patricia, they end up arriving in Maine. They get extradited from New York to Maine here. A New York State police airplane carrying them arrived at Portland International Jetport with them.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And there's a picture of Patricia with, like, a bottle of water in her hands cuffed, and she looks miserable. Let me tell you something. Yeah. Fucking miserable.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Oh, man. Her look on her face is like, oh, I did it. I fucked it all up. And she has two minor children also.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. It was going to be me. Two wives, him and what, the four kids from the two relationships move everybody in together? I don't know what's going on here. But the Maine State Police officers met them at the plane, shackled Brown and Teeter, and took them to separate cruisers. They sat in the front passenger seat with the detectives sitting behind them, which I think is an odd transportation.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, okay. Odd way to transport. So, yeah, they said that Teeter leaned forward in her seat trying to hide her face. She's embarrassed. Well, Stephen just kind of looked the other direction, but it was like, you know, chin up in the air here. Now, the funerals, they did funerals, joint funerals here for Donald and Chris. And they had a funeral at the mobile home.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And the highest is, not shockingly, Catholic, of course, because as we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the North. They are definitely going to be the majority wherever they are in the north here. The unemployment rate here is high. It is almost 7%, which is much higher than the rest of the country, which is in the fours here. There's nowhere to work. No, where are the Dunkin' Donuts?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, where most funerals take place. The guests were asked to dress casually. Yeah. Just act like we're having a barbecue and we'll also bury people.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Main cash flannel will be seen. Yeah. So afterward, dozens of friends of Donald and Chris will form a funeral procession made up of four wheel drive trucks that they.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's pretty goddamn cool. Yeah. Linda said that's the way he would have wanted it. At least they're not just doing it the way they want it. They're trying to send them off right. The parents, Stephen Brown's parents, are attending the funeral.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Donna and Ken, they don't. Yeah, they they right away tried to contact the families to apologize to them and all that kind of shit. But Terry would. The uncle, Debbie's uncle, said that the family won't accept it. Their apology, not because they're mad at them. Quote, We've not responded to their apology because there's no reason for one. There's no reason for one from them.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
We don't hate the Browns. Nobody can control what their children are going to grow up to be. That's super mature. That's very mature. Yeah, it's not their fault.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It doesn't even need to happen. They don't need to apologize, basically. They can show up at the funeral and no one's going to be like, oh, God, they're here. It's fine. Interesting. Very interesting. So in the woods next to the house, family members erected a small memorial to Donald, who was 43, and Chris, who was 30.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And they had flowered crosses and rose bouquets and a yellow toy monster truck as a tribute to his mudding habit here. His longtime friend Vicki said if Wood had to go, meaning Donald, the brother, if Wood had to go, he wanted to go out helping somebody and he wanted to go out on his own property. He got his wish. Helping somebody, not being lured out there to be murdered.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, if you went out to help somebody and they were, like, stuck under a giant tree that fell on them and then you got swept off in the rapids, yeah, that would be, like, an honorable way to go. But going out and being murdered is not the way you wanted to go out, I don't think.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And a funeral like this is also a way to process the event because you're trying to make it a celebration rather than let's all be sad. So I get it. Everybody processes different. So they said Debbie walked slowly and unsteadily to the pulpit at the church to pay tribute to her brother. She said, he was my hero. He always treated me with respect.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And yeah, 150 family members and friends attended these services at the church. And then they had that thing at the house after that. Apparently, Debbie became overcome with emotion and had to leave halfway through the whole thing. When these services ended, she made a short statement. She had her uncle, the police chief, next to her.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She said, I want to thank everyone who helped rescue me from my ordeal. We have a long road ahead of us. We must mourn in our own way. We want to leave Chris and Woody in peace. That makes sense. Now, court for these two idiots. man teeter they describe her as hands and shackles quivering and sobbing quietly during her 10 minute hearing I don't think she expected any of this shit
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But apparently they found somewhere to work because the median household income here is $92,117 a year, which is... Over 20,000 more. A lot of attractive feet in this place, apparently. Lebanon, Maine, our feet are the nicest. Jerk off to our feet. No hangnails. Yeah. Holy shit, what a weird, that's a weird stat. Cost of living here, 100 is regular, even in the rest of the country.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. She feels like she doesn't see 10 minutes ahead of her. You know what I mean? No.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She's just a goldfish. When you hear what a psychiatrist says about her, it's basically the same thing you'd say about a goldfish generally. She comes into court, by the way, with her left eye bruised, which I have the mugshot. I will post on social media as part of this that her left eye was bruised. This was an injury sustained during the police raid. Oh. So, yeah, that's how that goes.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And her defense attorney, who the same defense attorney represents both of them, by the way, Steve and Patricia, he said he doesn't know how they're going to plead. He said, quote, I was just appointed to this last night.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't even know anything about it. He said, so I haven't talked in detail with either client about what went on that night. He's just there to do the preliminary hearing. He has no idea what's going on here. He said that Stephen has no criminal history that he's aware of. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He said Teeter has two children, 14 and 15, and has only a one misdemeanor charge on her record from like 10 years ago. So that's... These aren't like he's saying that they don't seem like career criminals to me. So I don't know. Stephen Brown, as the prosecutors give their whole thing, Stephen Brown to the press agrees with their account.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Of how it went down. Yep. Apparently, a state charge of kidnapping is dismissed because a federal kidnapping charge has a heavier penalty. And he took her across state lines. And that's all. Yeah. Yeah. So he's going to be charged with that and so is she.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
There's two separate – he's going to have two separate things. There's going to be a federal and a state deal because murder is a state crime.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Okay. So the murders are going to be the state trials, and then the kidnapping and all that other shit is going to be federal trials. Okay. Because he's got weapons, fucking kidnapping, this. There's a whole lot of shit that he's stalking. They're really lining it all up for him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So he pleads innocent to the federal charges, which includes crossing state lines to violate a protection order, stalking, and violations of federal gun laws. Right. Teeter pleads innocent also to state charges of murder, felony murder and kidnapping. Stephen Brown's lawyer said he advised his client not to change his plea from not guilty.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He said there's been no promise of a lesser sentence for cooperating. So I told him that pleading guilty, even though he's admitted he did it, pleading guilty isn't really the best option. We might as well give it a shot here. But he did say that Brown wanted to take responsibility for his crimes and spare his family the stress of a drawn out procedure.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yep. He said the lawyer said, I don't think there should be any unrealistic expectations. A harsh sentence will be well within the realm of possibility. No shit. I would hope so. So he's sitting in the Cumberland County Jail in August of 1999 when he tries to take the quick way out.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Tries to turn it into a murder-suicide, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Very separate here. Aaron Hernandez way. If only. No. The Aaron Hernandez way. So he takes the disposable razor blades they get for shaving, slashes his neck with it, and then tries to hang himself by tying a sheet around his neck, knotting the other end to a railing, and vaulting over the railing.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Which would break your neck probably. Should, yeah. And at least hang you if not. Problem is, I don't think Steven ever was in the Boy Scouts. No.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Missed knot tying 101, apparently. The knot didn't hold, so as soon as there was any pressure, he was just free-falling from the next tier on down. Oh, damn it. And instead of hanging himself, he hit the ground and broke his ankle. Like a fucking dipshit. Broken left ankle, leg, possible broken right heel.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He's a drama queen, this Steven. He sure is. He really is. Even the crime is such a drama queen thing to do. I'll kill them, then I'm going to get her in there and talk to her and make her say she loves me. What a drama queen, man.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah, you fucking my wife. Yeah. Don't say it in front of my girlfriend, though. She gets sensitive.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Totally. He tried to fucking jump off the tier.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Here it is a 110. So a little bit high. And the housing is a little bit high as well. The median home cost here is $313,600.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
By the way, did nobody notice a man with a fucking rolled up sheet trying to tie it around a fucking railing? Who's leaking? Anybody watching in prison at all while his blood squirts from his neck? I mean, anybody paying attention? This is a county jail. This isn't Attica. Like, pay attention.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It was the first time the phrase epic fail was uttered ever. You know what? No one ever used that phrase again. Not only because it's annoying, but because no matter what happens, it's not as epic of a fail as this.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Damn, why didn't I learn to tie knots better? And then he's fucking laying there with it tied around his neck with blood everywhere and just a sheet hanging off. Like, what a mess you'd walk up to.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
If you're one of the fucking CEOs, you just walk up and just shake your head and go, this is a sorry ass scene I'm looking at right now. You sorry motherfucker. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Quickly. Yeah. No shit. It's like, it's not supposed to happen like this.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Holy shit. 8 a.m. too. He tried to do it early in the day. They described his neck wounds from the disposable razor as generally superficial. So I think that's why he had to hang himself. He couldn't get deep enough there. So Steven decides that, I mean, they have a lot of evidence. I mean, he was in the room with her and the guns and his girlfriend spilled it and he agreed with the prosecutor.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Get the fuck out of here. Stay out. Take your feet. Pick somewhere else. So if we've convinced you, you love pizza and Dunkin' Donuts, and this is just enough for you, we have for you the Lebanon, Maine Real Estate Report. Okay, your average two-bedroom rental here, very much more expensive than the national average. It's $1,690, which is way up there.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So he's going to go ahead and plead guilty.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't know what a trial would be for this.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. Just use his statements. It's fine. You know, so he's going to plead guilty to murder and kidnapping at the state level.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And then multiple federal charges as well in another separate proceeding that we'll discuss here. So sentencing comes around for the state charges. They describe him as sitting impassively, manacled to a wheelchair, a broken ankle and a four inch purple scar below his right ear. The remnants of his September suicide attempt.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So now he looks like a complete dipshit, not just a murderer, a complete moron on top of this. So his lawyer said it was an explosion of rage and not a careful plan. This wasn't some kind of premeditated, sick, fuck, thought out thing. This was just rage that exploded from him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Said Stephen Brown had suffered a series of crushing disappointments in the months leading up to the murders when a judge in their divorce case ruled that he couldn't contact his wife or children. That was it. He lost control. Couldn't take it anymore.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And he said that the mere fact that he killed the two men with a length of pipe he'd found along the roadside and not the shotgun he brought with him from New York indicated rage and not planning.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
To me, that indicates not wanting to wake up anybody. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's the thing. If the shotgun is for Debbie, that is not for them. If she hears a shotgun blast outside after this, she might call 911 before she comes out and you're not going to get her and then you're fucked. So bad. That's a bad strategy. And then he said, this is amazing. He said he carried the gun just to protect himself.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
An assault rifle and a shotgun just to protect yourself. And knives, evidently. And knives and ropes and duct tape and fucking pipes and everything. And he said, or at the very least, either to protect himself from others or to kill himself. One of those two, but not for people. That's crazy to think that he was trying to do that, even though he killed people.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He said, or this is the lawyers not helping at this point. So he carried the gun to protect himself. Okay, I don't believe it, but whatever. Or maybe to kill himself with. Okay, calm down, lawyer. Then the next one is, or he might have been trying to engage the police in a shootout that would cause his own death, what we know as death by cop. You're not helping your client, stupid. Shut up.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Stop talking. He's... Wow. His lawyer here said that if there had been a trial, Stephen Brown would have challenged his wife's assertions that she had been abused during their marriage. Even though she's been to multiple battered women's shelters and told people about the abuse for years.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Totally, yeah. The lawyer said that the court would be on shaky ground if it passed a strict sentence based on just allegations.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Well, I think it's based on murder and kidnapping and raping is what they're really talking about. He then says, quote, I'm not asking the court to find if there was adequate provocation and render a verdict of manslaughter.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Adequate provocation? You drove two states... Hit in the fucking dark and have somebody come out. Yeah, that's a real – I mean that's provocation right there. What are you talking about? You stalked them for a day. That's insanity. He said, but I'm not asking the court that the court blame – I'm not asking the court that blame should be focused anywhere but on Stephen.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But I'm asking the court to consider each event after event after event which put him in this condition. So shortly, this guy, this is how full of shit he knows he is. This seems like if you tried to like, you know, pass a football out of your ass like this is what would happen to you.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Soon as he was done finishing his argument, the lawyer asked for a recess and walked out of the courtroom complaining of nausea and sweating. Within a few minutes, he's in an ambulance being taken to the hospital, to the special care unit and remaining in stable condition. And through the rest of this, he's represented by another lawyer, his other lawyer that does the federal shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's right away. If I'm any, if I'm the judge, I go, well, I don't believe anything he said. If he had a fucking full blown meltdown after saying it. Yeah. A Tony Soprano pass out after he said it. I'm not buying that shit. So the prosecutor described him a little bit more simplistically as a controlling, narcissistic, just plain dangerous lunatic, basically.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He came to Maine with a plan to kill, use the pipe instead of a gun because it was quiet and it wouldn't stir up the other people sleeping in there. He's a Marine Corps veteran. He knows that massive blows he struck to the back of the head would kill them and not just knock them out. Right. Said that his aim was to kidnap his wife and he would have killed others if they had gotten in his way.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Here is a three-bedroom, one-bath, 1,400-square-foot dwelling, we'll call it, because we'll get to what it is. It's on two acres, which is nice. It's a trailer. But it's a trailer that they, like, attach some stuff. It's not just the lattice work around the bottom. It was, like, you know, it looks like you can't just pick it up and take it somewhere. It looks like it's in there pretty good.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
However many people came outside, he would have killed until he got to Debbie. Period. That's it. So the lawyer said she did precisely what she was told to do and saved her own life and possibly Patricia Teeters, too. Yeah. So she then said it was wrong to think Stephen Brown lost control when he could have no more contact with his family. The lawyer said this case is not about love.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
This is about if I can't have her, nobody will. It's about winning and losing. It's about a guy who does not take an L well at all. His lawyer then said that he doubted that Brown intended to kill Chris and Donald when he left New York, but, you know. whatever. And the judge agrees.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Um, he said, I don't know whether he intended to kill them or not, but at some point he planned it and he planned this attack and it was premeditated. The judge says he was prepared to do what was necessary to initiate contact with Mrs. Brown, including taking forcible type actions, right? Kidnapping. So the impact statements here, victim impact, they come up and, uh,
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Friends and family come up and do this. Terry Wood, who is Donald and Debbie's uncle, he said his family has been scarred by Stephen Brown. He said, my poor brother will never recover. My niece will take several years to heal. These two children will never heal knowing that their father is a murderer. And Whitney gets up there at 12 years old. Yeah, she does.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And she says, I am a Christian and I can't hate anyone, but I dislike my father. I can't even stand to look at him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Oh, that has to fucking sting, man. Sure. He deserves that shit.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I can't even stand to look at him from your 12-year-old daughter.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And then he called her a whore in open court. No, he didn't. But she's had a lot of reason to not like this guy. So then Debbie gets on the stand here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
That's the victim impact. She said, please. It's very rare, by the way, to have a murder case where there's also a victim who's still alive to give an impact statement. That's really damaging to a defendant. It really is.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And the main target. She said, please, I ask you to put him away so he can do no more harm. I beg you not to be light with him. I'm still in fear of him. Please put him in a prison outside of the state so my kids and I won't have to worry about him no more. So she doesn't even want him in the state. Even if he's in prison in the same state, she's scared.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I don't even want him locked up in the state. Stephen turned down the chance to speak on his own behalf, made no eye contact with anybody around, and no witnesses stepped forward to speak for him. Not even his parents. Nobody. He asked the judge to sentence him to death. That's all he did. He just said, I want the death penalty.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Please. The judge said, well, how about this? You, sir, may fuck off two life sentences without parole. How's that instead?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Much worse and slower. And you're not good at tying knots, so you're going to be there a while. So more sentencing for Stephen now in the federal court here. He's still got a bunch of more crazy charges that have life possibilities attached to them here. Debbie Brown again testifies and her uncle Terry asked the judge to show no leniency.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Debbie said, my biggest fear right now is that he will escape from prison to finish what he started. He's a monster. Death does not bother him. As a matter of fact, it turns him on. Fucking gross. So then Steven. Gets up there. Anything to say for yourself? He goes, I got something to say for myself this time. Now, he could apologize. He could say he doesn't know what happened to him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It looks kind of shitty from the outside, but it's not that bad from the inside. It's clean. It's livable. It's nice. It's okay. The listing says it's a charming ranch home, which, calm down. It's manufactured. Relax here. This house, $374,000 for that, though. Oh, my. Which, I mean, two acres is nice, but 1,400... You're buying the land. You're buying the land, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I went off the deep end. I'm a horrible person. I feel terrible. I'll never outlive this guilt. There's a lot of things you would say in this situation. The things you would not say in this situation here, by the way, came out, I guess he raped his wife three times that night. And they're all there because that came out later on.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So this fucking asshole instead says this, quote, I've never, ever denied responsibility for what happened. But for the past several months, there's been a lot of things said on TV and in newspapers. Everything's always one sided.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Wow. Yeah. He said, where is my fucking other side news? Where's that? Where's the news that says that fucking guy who admitted he murdered two people and kidnapped and raped his wife actually isn't too bad of a guy? Where's that news?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Wow. So, yeah, he made no excuses. He denied harming his children. He said, I never beat up my children. He then during his please be nice to me, accused Debbie of being unfaithful to him during their marriage.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I mean, that couldn't be more irrelevant at this moment in time. Holy shit. But he used that as that's the excuse.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He said, yes, I was enraged. Then he said, I just want to get this done. Okay, so the judge says, no problem, chief, got you covered. You, sir, may fuck off again. How about, what do you got, two without parole? Here's another three. Five life without paroles. Bye-bye. Three federal, two state, so you can appeal here and there. Even if one turns it over, you got either three or two more.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
man that's you got it brother it's it so teeter here patricia teeter she is going to go to court as well and uh she is going to plead guilty to murder and kidnapping as well as multiple federal charges she does the same thing she pleads here her thing though she has a little bit more leg to stand on on the plea because she can throw herself at the mercy of the court and say he's a monster and i didn't know and he lied to me and all that kind of shit whereas he has nothing to say here
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Don't come out. Lock the door. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Instead, she came back for the third person.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yeah. That's nuts. This is nuts. And she's just as fucking – I mean, obviously, I think she's been manipulated and probably whatever, but we'll talk about it. And like I said, the shrink, what he says about her, too, is interesting. She's going to plead to avoid getting a life sentence. Her plea gets her a lighter sentence, basically. She won't get life.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
On the federal kidnapping charge, which carries a mandatory life term – will be dropped, as will a more serious state charge of murder, which carries a possible life term. So it'll be like conspiracy and after the fact and all that kind of shit. So the length of the sentence is decided by a judge here.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,056 square feet, which is three bedrooms and 1,000 square feet is cramming them in there. 0.75 acres and another, again, it's the same thing, a mobile home, a manufactured home that's been made to look like it belongs there. This house, $399,900. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They said that during her sentencing, she stood at the front of the courtroom with her head bowed. Her voice barely rose above a whisper.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
as the judge questioned her about her case when a prosecutor read a description of the deaths of donald wood and christopher bullard teeter reached for a tissue and cried quietly a single mother of two teenage girls teeter did not know any of the victims she had been friendly with stephen brown for just a few months before he asked her to drive him to maine
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Teeter went even though she knew that Brown was barred from a court order from seeing his wife or their two children. Teeter also knew that Brown was armed with a knife, two guns, one of which she loaned him. So she definitely knows that the shotgun's hers.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
But the assistant attorney general here, the same one that prosecuted Brown, said that it doesn't appear Teeter had any intention of kidnapping or killing anyone. What? What? Then she just doesn't ask questions.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I go up, get a guy, you kill him. And then you say, go get another one. You go, OK. Like, you don't ask any. Are you going to kill him, too? Like, what the fuck? What are we doing here? She just does it. Wow. The prosecutor said Patricia Teeter appeared to be simply helping a friend. What? I mean, she's an idiot, but no.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And, yes, I know that you've had your own personalized program here that you've been working on.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She lent him a shotgun and then drove to the place that she knows his fucking wife has a restraining order against him on. I'm sorry.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Just a friend. Yeah. It would appear that she did not come to Maine to participate in killing two men. I believe that. I believe when they left, he didn't say, here's what we're going to do. We're going to kill two people and then kidnap her. I think that happened. But by the second murder, if you're still on board, what the fuck? You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I would fucking hope so. Jesus. She lent him a shotgun. So she said then they said, should she have known? Should she have been brighter? Should she would? Should she have foreseen this? We say yes. The prosecutor says, yeah, been brighter. It's funny. You've been adjudicated a dum-dum now, which is hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
At least slightly dim. Well, wait till you hear what the shrink says, too. It was funny. So her defense lawyer said that his client pleaded guilty to avoid the murder and federal kidnapping charges. He said that Patricia did not know what was happening outside Woods Mobile Home until it was too late. But she described the sound of the skull being smashed and then went to get someone else.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She was afraid of Stephen Brown, the lawyer said, and did whatever he told her to do. He also said that Teeter had long been a victim of domestic violence in her own marriage, which conditioned her to obey Brown. That sounds correct, probably. She said that he then said her conduct is consistent with her history as a battered woman.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Yes, but you can't just kill strangers if you're a battered woman. That doesn't that doesn't hold up in court. You know what I mean? So. His the Dr. Prudence Baxter, a Cambridge, Massachusetts psychiatrist, examined Teeter and described her as this is great, quote, startlingly naive and a gullible person.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
If you're if you're shrink uses the word startlingly in any description of you, you're a mess. That's not good. Wow. She also said that Teeter may have been conditioned to intimidation and control by 10 years of domestic abuse during a prior relationship, which sounds very reasonable. Now, Debbie's uncle, though, says horse shit. He gets on the stand.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Terry Wood and says that she's no less responsible for the crimes than Stephen Brown, and she should also spend the rest of her life in fucking prison. He said, quote, she knew when she came to the door the second time that my nephew was dead and Mr. Brown was going to murder Chris. All she had to do was say, dial 9-1-1. She could have put a stop to it, but she didn't. Exactly.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
for a thousand square foot trailer yeah that is bonkers and then here this next one this isn't really a you know family house or anything like this more of a vacation spot it's a two bedroom one bath 1060 square foot place uh on 0.73 acres it's a little house but it is lakefront you have a dock and everything like it's it's right on the water and it's amazing All wood inside. It's nice.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Exactly what we said. So Teeter, during her sentencing here, she has previously expressed remorse and all that kind of thing. She doesn't say much during her sentencing hearing, though. She said she learned during the 10-hour car trip that Brown wanted to talk to his estranged wife alone in violation of a court order, and she said she'd help do it. She said, I was disappointed.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I thought it was going to be a nice weekend. It had been a while since anyone had ever treated me. If I ever wanted to do something, I would always have to pay.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
she thought she said i was thought we were having a nice date weekend and i was wrong she said then usually yeah and i i'm the one who has to pay like nobody likes me and i thought he liked me that's essentially it which i mean yeah she's a and when you see her too she's kind of like a it's hard to describe her but she looks like a woman who's kind of sad just a person who's not real like um she doesn't go out yeah has not a lot of positive relationships
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It seems like it. Yeah. Then Patricia said he said he was going to knock him on the head and tie him up for a brief time. I didn't think it was all right, but I guess I was afraid. Then he told me he could do it without hurting them. So he's like, OK. So he told Teeter to go back a second time despite her protest.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
He said she she said he grabbed me by the arms and looked me in the face and said, you have to.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
No choice. She said, I just thought if I went in and they went out, he could get in and talk to Debbie and it would be done more or less peacefully and nobody would get hurt. The defense attorney said this conduct is very much out of character for her. She's never been in any trouble in her whole life. She's well thought of in her community.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
And the judge disagrees with all of this and says, quote, there is absolutely no indication that this defendant acted out of fear, coercion or distress. Mm hmm. The judge dismissed a psychiatric report that said that Teeter was afraid of Brown. He said he believed Teeter's statements to an interviewer were, quote, fabricated in an effort to avoid the likely sentence in this case.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So she was just discounting her own participation. He cited evidence that he said pointed to Teeter's active participation, including her willingness to tap on the wall of their motel room to warn Stephen Brown of any police in the in the area. Oh, my God. So, yep, the judge says that shows, in my view, a fixed determination to pursue it right to the end.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
You, ma'am, may fuck off 20 years in state prison, 29 years in federal prison, but to be served concurrently.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She was eligible for parole in 2024. We'll talk about it now. Debbie said she was satisfied with the sentence.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
I mean, she said, yeah, not I do. She knows that Debbie's not going to get out of that. Patricia Teeter is not going to get out of prison and come Hunter. You know what I mean? It's that. So she doesn't really care. She said that Teeter had plenty of opportunity to escape from the motel, to call the cops, to help out. She ran errands for him all fucking day. She was out and about.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
She was making phone calls to friends and shit. Debbie said, she told me I should go back to Steven and not be fearful of him and that he wasn't a bad guy. Now, Steven's going to appeal this sentence. Yeah, this sentence here. He claims he was prejudiced by the lack of fair notice of the charges against him.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Did he not think there'd be serious charges against him when he got arrested for murder and kidnapping? That is fucking wild, I think. Anyway, they said, if true, this would seriously affect the fairness, integrity, and public reputation of a judicial proceeding. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
So, notwithstanding his protestations to the contrary, Brown's claim that he lacked fair notice of the charges against him cannot withstand even the mildest scrutiny, the court says. First, though the kidnapping count did not allege the kidnapping resulted in a death, the conspiracy count explicitly charged Brown with killing Wood and Brouillard.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
Before entertaining Brown's guilty plea, the district court instructed the parties to file briefs on the issue of whether the death of any person resulted of kidnapping is an element of the offense or a sentencing factor.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
It's a cabin getaway. The inside that they show in all the pictures, there's like beds everywhere. It's like families of 14 are going to a two-bedroom lake house to sleep. It's insanity. It's crazy. But it's on the waterfront. $635,000 for that bad boy.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
The court ruled that the statutory provision issue was a sentencing factor that informed and informed Brown that if he pleaded guilty to the kidnapping charge, he would be sentenced to a mandatory life term in prison.
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
by the statute that's the federal kidnapping charges if the death of any uh if the death of any person results from it during a kidnapping thus brown was aware of the charges against him and of the corresponding penalties before entering his guilty plea keep on keeping on enjoy it yeah enjoy patricia's gonna gonna go ahead and try it too i said fuck it i'll give it a shot i'll appeal i'll throw down um that's wow i can't even believe he tried that so
Small Town Murder
#567 - Til Murder Do Us Part - Lebanon, Maine
They said during the changes, his teeters now during the change of plea colloquy, the district court questioned the appellant concerning her overall understanding of an acquiescence in the terms of the plea agreement, but did not direct her attention to the waiver provision.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
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Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The physical act of killing sparked such a fury that he reached a form of sexual satisfaction releasable only through prolonged violence. That's why, although he knew that they were dead, he'd still keep going at them because it felt good. The same reason why BTK came in his pants when he would fucking kill somebody.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So they said, of course, his warped sense of justice, the murders wouldn't have been a success unless he could tell the world what sluts they were. So he would pose them into erotic. And erotically weird shapes and then degrade them with leaving something phallic in them.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So, yeah, they said that the reinforcing the concept of degradation he placed in and on the victim's sex toys and sexual propaganda, such as that book, all that kind of thing. They said also he displayed a steadily increasing guile and confidence spending more time with each victim as his killing spree progressed, which is absolutely true.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, Douglas, John Douglas here says that all the victims repose that night and that exhibited the same signature. He talks about signature a lot. He said that the victims were penetrated vaginally, anally or orally with some type of device or foreign object and said the time frame of the murders pointed to one perpetrator.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Douglas agreed there were differences among the crimes, but explained on redirect the differences were insignificant compared to the similarities. The significant part is the posing of the victims, the posing in this degrading type of position. That's critical.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
In addition to them, they bring in another bunch of detectives that testify that the body seemed posed and only one said he'd ever seen another murder scene involving posing. So they're trying to show how rare it is for posing. This isn't going to be some other guy doing this.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It really doesn't run the fuck away. They get the fuck out of there. They don't. You got to have some serious guile to stick around and do this type of shit. And it's got to be a thing you need. They the defense brings in their own posing expert who's a retired 20 year FBI veteran who says there's too many differences in the way they were killed, degraded, imposed to been the work of one person.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Their bodies are in almost the exact same position. The fuck are you talking about? On cross-examination, they elicited his current opinion that all the murders were done by the same person, though. But he said at first he didn't think they were. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, the defense in closing, the public defender team of Miriam Schwartz and Brad Hampton, these poor bastards, they got to talk about a fucking mountain to climb here. They tried to poke holes in the... No, they tried to poke holes in the case. They told the jury that if George, a high school dropout, were indeed a serial killer, there would have been more victims sooner. He just started now.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He's 30. What are we doing? He was 32 years old. What are we talking about? They said that the one defense attorney claimed that Carol Bede's boyfriend who left a fingerprint on a Coca-Cola can in her house. That's your killer right there. Problem is he's got reason to have fingerprints on Coca-Cola cans because he goes there because that's his girlfriend.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He, George, has no reason to leave a hair or any sperm behind anywhere. Yeah. So the verdict comes in 22 hours of deliberation.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
22 hours. I'll tell you why in a minute, because it's fucking hilarious. The jury returns guilty of all three on first degree murder. Or I'm sorry, first degree murder for Marianne and aggravated first degree murder for Carol and Randy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yes, because they did a lot more post.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, what the fuck took them 22 hours?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
jurors told reporters that they weren't in any disagreement they were never an argument they thought he was guilty from the beginning they just took a long time to discuss how weird everything was this is fucking crazy they sat around like dude and then that could you that one dude like they just talked about the case and they were like we should really i mean there's a whole courtroom of people waiting for us we should probably go out and tell them until we hammer all this shit out dude they couldn't vote and then be like let's get together at fucking denny's later isn't some black angus fuck
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Fuck it, yeah. So the sentencing comes around, and obviously you can imagine what they were saying about him. He's a monster, menace to society, our greatest nightmare, obviously. He is sentenced to, you, sir, may fuck off two life sentences with no parole, and then another 29 years in prison on top of that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
At Costco's fine. I mean, I've gone there in Arizona. It's like a weird number, too. In Arizona, we went there at some point. I have a problem with Costco because of the receipt checking thing that I've ranted and raved about the whole time. So they can go fuck their mothers all together. So this festival is split into two parts, a 21 plus tasting garden and an all ages street fair.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
For the other one, yeah, consecutive. So, bye-bye, George.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Very quickly, his appeal says he wasn't Mirandized, so there's that. He wanted the cases severed. He wanted to sever count one from counts two and three, and they wouldn't let him sever it. He said John Douglas' testimony was ridiculous. It's inflammatory. They say that they shouldn't have been able to testify about the posing and the court rule. That's what I mean.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They say, get the fuck out of here, George. You're gone. No. So that's denied. Now, here's an article I found from 2025 with an interview with George Russell. What? Junior. Yeah, I'm a fucking idiot, though, because I went right to the middle of it to see what the meat of it was. And there's some like talk of the South and stuff. So I thought it was him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And then I went to the beginning and it says, I'm here for the Conservation History Association of Texas. We're in Huntsville, Texas, and we've got the good fortune to be visiting with George Russell, who's a forest activist and conservationist in East Texas. And I'm like, bastard. Shit. Wrong guy. Okay. Mistaken identities are a motherfucker, man.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, his story here was detailed in the book that I quoted a lot in this, Jack Olson's 1995 book, Charmer, A Lady's Man and His Victims. Also, it was examined in Serial Violence, Analysis of Modus Operandi, and Signature Characteristics of Killers by Robert Kepler. This book is $93 on Amazon. God damn. The Kindle version is $92. What? It's a fucking scan. What are you talking about? It's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The case was dramatized in several investigation discovery shows, including Dead of the Night, Secrets of the Morgue, City Confidential, and Murder by Numbers. And also... George was analyzed in Most Evil, that show, where he was ranked at 17 out of the 22 level scale. Very fucking evil. Very evil. Also examined by the New Detectives and Mark of a Killer on the Oxygen Network.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And there you go, everybody. That is Kirkland Washington and a fucked up ass serial killer. I mean, a Ted Bundy in the making. He would have been Ted Bundy. So many bad guys in that area of the country.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's so strange. I mean, it's so fucking weird. Right after that, too, because you had the Green River Killer, you had Bundy, you have him. It's all happening. So, anyway, if you like that show, tell the world about it. Please get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars because it helps the show so much. It takes 10, 30 seconds to do.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So, please, it takes way longer to put this show together. So, thank you so much for doing that. Head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Tickets for live shows. We are in Chicago in May. We're also in St. Louis, but it's already sold out. So... That isn't going to do you any good. But at the Riviera in Chicago, get your tickets for that. Also, get your tickets for the 420 virtual live show.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Oh, baby. It takes place on April the 19th. It's a Saturday night, and it's available for two weeks after that. You can watch it 100 times. You can buy it a week later. Do whatever you want with it for those two weeks, just like a regular live show. But you're in your living room. And we are performing for you. Got everything just like we do on a stage, except also we're going to have costumes.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And I'm going to force Jimmy to smoke out of increasingly crazy apparatus. So there's that. I definitely do that. Get your tickets now. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Also get all your merch there and everything. Patreon. Fuck you want Patreon. Yeah. Yeah, you did. Patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash small town. No, damn it. P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash crime in sports is what it is.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
All ages. So you can wander out drunk from the garden into the where the kids are. The Tasting Garden, this seems like where the fun is, features wine tasting, live music, and a Saturday food truck feast.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Just like the name of our other show that you should be listening to. And anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get a giant back catalog of stuff you've never heard before immediately upon subscription. New ones every other week. Two new ones. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And damn it, you get them all this week. which you're going to get for crime and sports.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We're going to talk about some scams in sports, including the Spanish Paralympic gold medal winning Spanish Paralympic team. Congratulations to them. Only problem is none of them are disabled. That's the issue. Bastards. And then small town murder, the bonus, the absolute craziest story I've ever heard. The documentary on Netflix is called American Nightmare. Never been on the edge of my seat more.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's like a pepini situation. You think it's a kidnapping, but is it fake? Are they faking it? Maybe they are. Maybe it's fucking crazy. And there's a resolution, too. Thank God. We won't leave you hanging. Yeah, thank God. That would have been too much. So that is patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right fucking now.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Jimmy, hit me with the names of the people who would never, ever, ever pose us in crazy sexual positions after we've been murdered. Hit me with them right now.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The Street Fair features artisan booths and crafts. So, nothing. Just walking around, dicking off. A band called The Chancellors will be there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That sounds okay. And then soon as they wrap up, they clean up all their instruments, get the drum set off the stage, and then there's a dog model contest, which is awesome. I'll stay away.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
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Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, I'm going to stay away. I don't want Oscar to make them all feel bad, so they can all kiss my ass.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
With their dicks out. A bunch of red rockets. Balls clipped.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So there's also a harvest festival and says save the date for Kirkland's fourth annual harvest festival. And it takes place at a beach. It features food trucks. We got live music by Roman, R-O-E-M-E-N, Roman.com. And yeah, they're really in favor of Roe versus Wade. They're just they're really the Roman. Yeah. And the whereabouts of the Roman and the whereabouts.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But first, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Get your tickets not only for regular live shows. which in May we're in Chicago at the Riviera. Get your tickets right now. St. Louis is sold out in May. Also, the virtual live show, April the 19th. It's the 420 virtual live show.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's a band and also a band called 24 Madison. All right. Don't get your dress out, guys. That's where we'll be practicing if you need to find us later. And activities for children at the Kids Corral with two Ks. It's a kid and then corral with a K. Luckily, it's not like the, you know, could have been a lot with the Kirkland Kids Corral. Could have gotten real ugly real fast, so I'm glad there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
There's also a cornhole tournament, of course.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Register your team at, you go to KirklandParks.net and you search cornhole, it says. Just pop cornhole in your query search there and see what happens, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
i love that so much do it with your pants off you're gonna need it you are gonna need it for sure holy shit crime rate in this town uh what we're interested in here property crime now this is a very expensive area so i would yeah i would assume zero it should be low but that's kind of where the riffraff goes to steal shit too
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But like I would I would assume in like a neighborhood like that, like remember when we went to we went to do some shit in L.A. We went and found O.J. 's house. We were driving around Brentwood at some every turn we made. You just expected three cops to pull up on us and tell us to get the fuck out of there because we're scumbags and don't belong here. Right.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's what I picture this area would be like. Hey, scum, you don't belong here. You're not wealthy. Get out of here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
No, this was in your Jeep. This was in your Jeep. Was it in my Jeep? It was in your Jeep, which kind of made us look worse. It made us look like, somehow it made us look worse. I don't know how. That was after you upgraded to the Jeep there. But, yeah, just about average on property crime. So that's odd.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime, that's low. So that is one-third of the national average. So two-thirds under it. Very, very low there. That said, let's talk about some horrible murder, shall we? All right, we're going to jump right in and jump in hot here. Let's go to June 23, 1990. Yeah. And let's meet Jimmy. Let's meet Jimmy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Let's meet us. Neither of us. Jimmy, he's a Mickey D's employee who's at work at 5 o'clock in the morning.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It takes place Saturday, April 19th, and you can buy it, watch it, do whatever you want with it for two weeks after that. So you can watch it over and over, do anything you want anywhere in the world. With internet, you can watch this just like a regular live show, except you're wherever the hell you want to be.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Jimmy's not having a great run in life here at this point in time. No.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Oh, man. Imagine getting up at four to make the fries. Like, that sounds horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Ugh. Bad eggs. So, here's Jimmy. Here he is. He's coming out. He's got a heavy, you know, he's going out to the dumpster taking out, I guess, last night's trash or whatever. Which, God. Fucking...
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
overnight mcdonald's trash this guy's you know it's leaking everywhere yeah nasty those dumpsters smell so bad oh they're so disgusting they're so disgusting nothing smells worse for some reason than a chinese food place dumpster yeah yeah i worked downtown in phoenix and there was a dumpster that was for this chinese place and it was it's the most this is an alley full of dumpsters and this one stood out as particularly fucking rank
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We could have, that's the thing here. I'm, I'm picturing lots of like diet Coke and orange high C leaking out of this fucking thing. It's going to be nasty.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he gets over the gets to the back door and he is gets out of the back door. He's got like a gurney thing that he's taken it out on, like multiple garbage things. And he's heading out toward the dumpster, which those dumpsters are kind of the middle of the parking lot because they share a little dumpster bay with the Black Angus restaurant. That's also right there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So that's what's going on here. So he's walking and it's very early in the morning and doesn't really can't really see very much going on. And he does see something kind of laying in the in the parking lot between him and the dumpster. So he sees that he's like, what's that? It looked like it looked like a long white and long and twisted like a tree branch is the way he thought it looked like.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he's like, what the hell is that there? Not a lot of white tree branches unless it's like a kind of birch tree or something. So they were like, what is this? They didn't know if it was like he said, didn't know if it was something from like that fell out of Black Angus's trash cans or I don't know what Black Angus does over there. I don't know what the hell kind of shit they throw out.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So it's very odd. So he's looking. He's like, what the fuck? He stops for a minute. And then he thought, oh, no, is this some kind of animal or some shit? I don't want to get close to it. If it's a wounded animal, it's going to bite me. My life sucks already. I'm taking McDonald's garbage out at five o'clock in the morning.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We're going to have the screen, the pictures, the costumes. I'm going to force Jimmy to smoke out of crazy contraptions. It'll be a wild time. Can't wait for that. And like I said, get your tickets also for the rest of the year because... They are going fast and a lot of the dates are sold out like after the summer. So get those right now. Shut up and give me murder dot com.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I don't need to get bitten by a rabid raccoon now, too, on the way to do it. So he goes a little bit closer and he thinks it's a mannequin. They always say that. God damn it. Looks like a mannequin.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
In one of our Facebook groups there, I noticed somebody put, I know I hear that it's never a mannequin, and then posted a picture and put, I was walking one day and it actually was a mannequin. She had a whole story about how she was walking, assumed it was a dead body because she listens to this show, and it was a mannequin. So that's pretty fun.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
yeah because he was like what is it he's got to go to the dumpster it's mcdonald's man yeah you want that you want that big payday you gotta go to the dumpster you saw a mannequin yeah i thought it was a mannequin then you're like well it's never a mannequin i'm gonna go look i'm gonna investigate closer and then look closer and uh that's one of the other things we said is keep walking you think you see a mannequin you didn't
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Don't get it. Just, I don't know. It could be a mannequin. Clean it up. But he's looking and he goes, it looks real. It just looks really, really real. And like, you know, no clothes on this mannequin. Just looks like it's laying there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Then it's got to be a person. It can't be a mannequin. He's like, you know, processing all this and going, what the fuck is it? Some kind of some drunk over here felt like a homeless person fell down. What's going on? But the way the the way this is form was twisted natural was very unnatural. Yeah. So he looked closer and then said took off ran back in the McDonald's.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And so he later on a police officer would say he sees something really strange and it's the body of a woman. And so he rushed in, called 911. Police arrive at the scene and they find a young woman dead. And they're looking at her. She's got no visible gunshot wounds or stab wounds or anything like that. So that's interesting. It's a naked dead lady.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Naked dead lady in the McDonald's Black Angus parking lot there. And the odd thing is her body has been posed.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Clearly posed. This is not an accidental deal here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Absolutely. She was found partially inside the dumpster corral area. You know, those dumpsters with the little gate that opens up in the parking lot there. And it's definitely posed. The way they say it is she's nude, wearing nothing but small articles of jewelry and bent into shapes that a human doesn't bend into.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The cops said it looked like complete degradation is what it looked like somebody was trying to do. This is from Dr. Robert Keppel, who is John Douglas's partner in the profile. Yeah, I wrote a million books and all that kind of thing from the FBI. Yeah. He says the victim was left lying on her back with her left foot crossed over the instep of her right ankle.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Her head was turned to the left and a Frito-Lay dip container, you know, those little fucking cans basically, rested on top of her right eye. Weird, real weird. And in one hand, they find a Douglas fir pine cone. She's holding a pine cone. So there's a there's a Frito-Lay dip can on her eye and a pine cone in her hand. And there's no like this isn't like a big pine trees above.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Also listen to our other two shows, which are crime in sports, which if you haven't heard, if you haven't listened to, you don't have to like sports, especially what we're doing now. It's like a 10 parter on Evil Knievel. So you don't need to like sports. You just need to like crazy people who do insane things and want to hear us make fun of them. So definitely check that out.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And they fall over. There's no other pine cones around.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's very interesting. That's what I'm saying. She's wearing two pieces of jewelry. Arms are folded over her stomach. Legs extended, crossed at the ankles and had a pine cone in her hand. Like we said, a detective said somebody had taken quite some time staging the body. I had noticed there was a large size coffee cup lid covering her right eye, which it's not. It's a Frito-Lay dip lid.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's what it is. One foot was crossed over the other. Her hands were folded over her stomach, and they were holding a pine cone. The post-mortem injuries and spending a lot of time with the body really isn't that common. It's not. It's really – yeah, especially in a public place like this because you – it's one thing to pose someone in a private place.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's another thing to kill someone and then just dump them. But to take somebody to a public place where there's – you're fully exposed and no cover and a fucking – in a parking lot and take a naked dead body, a dead naked Betty and, and, and be posing it. You got to have some nerves of steel to do that. Like I couldn't fucking do that. I'd be shitting my pants. Wouldn't you? Oh my God.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I don't like running red lights. You know what I mean? Oh, fuck. It wasn't good. God damn it. I'm looking all around. This is crazy. I want to be around dead people. So they find out that the young lady who they have discovered is Mary Ann Polreich. She is 27 years old, and that's who it is.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And also your stupid opinions. Which is absolutely hilarious when we go over one-star reviews and things like that from all over the internet. And then, if that's not enough, you need Patreon. There you go. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get tons of stuff. Tons.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They're going to have to investigate all of this. And it's really clearly somebody is a sick fuck and they know it. So this is a dangerous person out there and they don't know if it's personal. They don't know anything about it. That said, let's talk about a man here. Let's talk about let's start over here. We'll talk about George Waterfield Russell Jr.,
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
George Waterfield is his middle name, which I'm sure that's somebody's maiden name or something. Russell Jr. He's born in April of 1958. He's born down in Florida, and he'll spend his first few years in Florida here. Goes from Florida, he'll end up in Washington. So can't get any farther away from Florida, really.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he's the oldest of three children that we'll find out, stepbrothers and sisters that come much later. Sure. His parents are separated when he's about six months old. So his mom has a lot of ambition. His mom, Joyce, here and his dad, George Waterfield, Russell Senior. So they had him. They looked fine, but apparently the family wasn't doing very well.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And Joyce decided when, you know, young George is about six months old that she's had enough and she wants out of this whole thing. She wants a different not just a different situation, you know, romantically or whatever. She wants a different life completely. She's like, I'm done with all this shit. Yeah. So she left her husband and also leaves George behind with her mother.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. That's she wants a different life for a mom. Nothing. So leaves the George with the mother and she went off to college. She said, fuck that. I had had the kid too early, got married too early, going back to college. Now, she said she'd be back. She's like, I'm going to I'm going to go to college and I'll come back. I'm going to have a degree and I'll be able to take care of my son better.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So and she does come back, actually.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
In 1964. And she'd gotten her diploma. She'll be end up being a college professor.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
She's pretty smart lady. And not only does she come back with a diploma, she comes back with a new husband. I got this paper, and I brought you a new dad. Here you go. I don't hear, by the way, anything about George Sr. for the rest of the story. He just might as well have disintegrated. Just vanished into thin air here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So the this guy that she has, this new husband, is a very successful dental surgeon that does very well for himself. He's like he's the dental. He does all the dental work for the University of Washington sports teams and all that kind of shit. Yeah, he's a real, really successful guy. And she comes back saying, I'm picking George up and we're moving to Washington state. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We're moving to somewhere very, very wealthy also and ritzy here and not Kirkland somewhere much ritzier than that. So, yeah, the problem here is George is never, ever going to feel like he's a part of this family ever, which. From somebody who has done that, I get it. But a lot of that, looking back on it as an adult now, is part you, too.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
You're going to get hundreds of episodes that you've never heard before immediately upon subscription of bonus stuff. And then you get new stuff every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder. You get it all. This week, we're going to talk about for crime and sports, some cheating scandals and things like that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Because you feel like you're not welcome doesn't mean you're not welcome. You know what I'm saying? Sure. That's what I'm saying. They could have been very welcoming and very, you know, conciliatory to him and everything else. But still, he could have felt like that just because that's how people feel. You know what I'm saying? That's how I felt. And it wasn't anybody's fault, really.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So I don't know. So but he never really feels like he's like as close to his mom as he should be because she has the new husband and, you know. He feels like an add-on, just a tack-on, like a responsibility. I had to go get my son. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
One really is the highlight, though, the Spanish Paralympic team who had no actual disabled members. Yeah. Bad news there. They did win the gold, so that's pretty impressive. Good job, guys. And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about American Nightmare. It's a documentary on Netflix, and I read the whole book that goes with it, too.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Thank you. Thank you. ������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������� Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Long book, and it's the craziest story I've ever heard in my life, honestly. It's insane. Edge of your seat. You think it's a Sherry Papini fake kidnapping situation, then you don't, and then you do again. It's the craziest thing you ever want to hear.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's so wild, man. We'll get into all that. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well. That said, disclaimer time. It's a comedy show, everybody. We are comedians. Now, that doesn't mean anything in this show is not real. Every last little detail is real. Nothing's embellished for comic effect or any garbage like that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
This is meticulously researched stuff. And we're going to find places for some humor.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
You might go, how does that happen? Very easily. There's a lot of dumb things to make fun of in this. Here's what we don't do, though. We don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So it was well hidden in the woods above the old Islander Tavern behind that, concealed with blackberry bushes, vine maples, and a prickly aggravation called Devil's Club. That's from a book that we'll mention later on. George said that Boris would be his first and only visitor. He said this fort was off limits to the world, quote unquote. That's what George said. This is my private area.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he's got that. He's got his own little lair. Now, in school, he became a real loud, boisterous kid, very funny, kind of class clown kind of a kid. But very charming, too. Even the teachers liked him, even though he was a class clown.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. Very high IQ, very shitty grades.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Way more concise. Sounds like a comedian. Very... Smart guy, but not here. Not here. Not in this place. So he had the... Like this book says, he had the vocabulary of an English teacher's son because mom's an English teacher, but couldn't really make that into a coherent paper or a thought or a report or an essay.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. See how that goes? That's how it works. But otherwise, there's plenty to make fun of. First of all, someone going, I think I can get away with murder. This seems pretty easy. When you have no experience doing that, probably a bad idea. That right there is going to get made fun of and a whole lot of other things like that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
His teachers liked him, though, and Mercer Island also is a very good school system because... Very rich up there. Eighth grade science teacher described him as, quote, bright, but immature, small for his age and see hyper all over the place. You couldn't get mad at him, though. He wasn't the least bit malicious. He kept us all laughing, but he just wasn't interested in schoolwork.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He wanted to play. As long as I knew him, he was a playful little boy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And the other thing is he doesn't even hit five feet until high school. He's a tiny guy. Little guy. Smallest kid in the class always. Smallest boy anyway. Yep. And George, by the way, backed up the teacher's thoughts. He told his friend Boris, I only pay attention in classes I like. I don't need those goofy little art classes. I always feel like let's speed this up.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Not interested, which is exactly what I did in school. Social studies got 100.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Art? Didn't give two fucks about that. Don't care. I like art, but I'm not making it. You know what I'm saying? It's just I'm not an artist. I'm not good at it. So I didn't give a shit about that. Same exact way. My report card looked like, did you send two different people to classes? What the fuck happened here? F, A, F, B plus, F. Okay, it makes no sense.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So George was trying to figure out – he's trying to figure out his role and what's going on here, what his life is and what his – every kid's go through that. You're trying to figure out who you are and where you fit into the social structure of the world here. And school is your world when you're 12. Yeah. So about 1971, 72, cops found him. Just a couple of weird things.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He's peering through some blackberry bushes at night at one point. Found a kid peering from out of the bushes, which is weird. I mean, nothing that's like a crime, but just weird. Certainly, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. And now he gets in trouble for truancy. So the cops start like a program around him, basically. That is... Come hang out at the police station. We'll give you some work and hang out with us like a kind of a mentor program. Free work. That's a mentor program.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So they would make him do paperwork and shit. Yeah. Now, while this is going on, his stepfather makes it clear to the police that George is absolutely not his son. He's like, I don't take biological blame for anything that's happening right now. Okay. Yeah. So they asked the dentist guy, he said, well, he's not your son. How'd you end up with him? Right. And he said-
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But if you think that true crime and comedy should never, ever go together, then maybe we're not for you, but maybe we are. You should check it out. I think we're for everybody. We're for the children, damn it. Small town murders for the children. No, it's not. One thing it's not for is the children. It's to protect the children. It's to protect the children. Yeah, there you go.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He said, quote, I lived in a boarding house when I was going to dental school in Washington, D.C., and this little orphan kid was living there. I picked him up and put him under my arm.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. You just married his mom. Weird. So, yeah, he liked the attention that police gave him. It made him feel big and important that he was hanging out with these people. One of the cops said... The first time I saw Georgie, he was in trouble for some petty thing, maybe truancy, and the youth bureau had given him some work around the station.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He was 13 or 14, little bitty kid, well-dressed, frail, innocent, very likable. He could charm your socks off. So he said he was the last kid on Mercer Island you'd expect would turn into the biggest nightmare. He became a fixture at the Mercer Island Police Station.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
One of the cops said he'd come around a couple times a week, and we'd let him straighten things up, wipe the blackboard, sharpen pencils, empty the trash. We thought, hey, if we're giving him some responsibility, maybe we're helping him a little bit.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, a kid has to stay after school.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We call it the breakfast club down there at the old police station. So they gave him his own official cubby hole as well.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He was telling classmates then he wanted to be a policeman. Before that, he was saying he wanted to be a fighter pilot. Now he switched to a policeman. And one of the officers said it was the first time we ever took in a kid like that. But there was something different about him. He said, you know, he's just a nice kid.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They said the cops would buy him snacks, and he really seemed to take to all the cops that worked there, except the black ones. Didn't like the black cops. Nope, wouldn't talk to them, had no interest in the black cops whatsoever. And they tried to be real nice to him, and he was like, don't care, fuck off.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Oh, you're talking about Michael Winslow. You're talking about like in movies?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Really? I guess you grew up out there. That makes sense.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
No, and all the cops in Arizona are like white guys from the Marines. Yeah, they're like MPs that are now, yeah, like square-headed dudes like that. Yeah, they're not.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
One of my dad's best friends from high school that lived across the street from us was a cop, and he was black, so I never ... Tons of black cops.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's fucking funny. So yeah, he said that he didn't like the black cops, which is strange. So after a few months, they said we'd talk one-on-one with him, and he'd listen to your troubles like you were the most important person in the world. Talking about the kid. Yeah. you'd have to keep reminding yourself you were talking to a kid.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, they're like, yeah, my wife, man, I got to tell you, I have marriage problems. And he's like, lay it on me, brother. Let's fear you.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But for the rest of you, though, that want to hear a crazy story and want to hear some wild stuff, I think it's time to sit back, clear the lungs here, and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We are going all the way to Washington State this week.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, it was odd. They thought it was odd, too, that he would be basically making a bunch of cops into a substitute family for a kid that age who had a family. It just seemed odd. So a lot of them said that he didn't get very personal about his own stuff, and they thought maybe this cheerful exterior and all these jokes are a cover for some darker shit, you know, like a comedian.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he said, we wondered why he didn't illuminate things. If we got too nosy, he made it plain he didn't want to talk about his home life, so we just stopped asking. Hardest thing in the world for a bunch of nosy cops, but we liked Georgie enough to give him the space. What was bothering him, he would never say.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he's having this home life that he doesn't want to talk to people about. His mom is austere and ominous. Right. His stepdad makes it clear that this did not come from my dick.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. This did not leak from my pipe here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Fuck yeah. So May of 1973 is kind of high school area when it starts to go. Now in high school, he just hits five feet as he's a freshman. And that makes him a little bit uncomfortable in high school. And that's tough for high school to be five foot tall. Yeah. So he'd start hanging out with younger kids who looked more like him. That was kind of the way he'd do it here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And they said that one of the cops said he noticed that George was definitely hanging out with the younger kids. He said one of the cops said he was always skinny, didn't reach five foot till high school. And I think he felt sort of intimidated by people his own age. He could be a big shot with the littler kids. He craved that attention, people looking up to him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It was something he didn't seem to be getting anywhere else. Somebody get this kid to an open mic. I just have to say it. Either an open mic or a prison cell. One of the two, because those are your only options. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's probably hilarious. So by the time he entered the ninth grade, he's not hanging out with Boris much anymore either. No. Boris says, I changed and George didn't. I was getting interested in girls. George was too, but he was secretive about it. It was something else he kept to himself, how he felt about girls. His style attracted younger kids. I preferred older company. So, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And he said he realized that he never really knew the guy is what he realized, too. So him and his classmates, he has two classmates and they disappear from school one day and run away when he's 14. This is May of 73. So he just turned 15. And he and two classmates, they disappear. The next afternoon, they were arrested in a little town 50 miles east of there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They got 50 fucking miles away somehow. I don't know how, if they hitchhiked or what, 73. You could hitchhike your way across the country back then. So, yeah, they end up there at Clee Alum, which is a town 50 miles each of there. So the Mercer Island Juvenile Unit comes to pick them up. One of the officers said,
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
George had prepped the third kid with the number of a phone booth because he knew his parents were home. Nice work, yeah. But the kid panicked and gave up his home number. He couldn't do it. He couldn't do it. Not exactly nerves of steel over here. So they got caught, they said, but it was all planned out like the Brinks robbery and most of the thinking was done by George.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He was the one telling everyone else what to do. That's right. So they asked George, why do you want to run away in the first place? Are you unhappy? Are you mistreated? What's the deal, Georgie? Can we help you? And he said, no, I got everything I could want. And they said, well, then why did you run away? And he said, quote, we heard you guys were trying to frame us for a burglary.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Heading out to the West Coast. We're going to Kirkland, Washington. which is a little bigger town than we usually cover, but still a burb. You know what I mean? It's a suburb. Well, we'll talk about that, actually. I was wondering if you were going to bring that up or not. It's one of the things I was like, he'll probably bring up the Walmart brand. Not Walmart, Costco. Costco. Costco's Kirkland.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And they were like, OK, no, what are you talking about? Like, it's a very odd thing to say. So they said this is a pattern that forms, though. Whenever George gets into trouble, he blames someone else or claims it's all a big misunderstanding. So he goes. So they noticed that it's a it's just a repeated thing. He will not take responsibility.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They could watch him do something and he'll blame it on somebody else.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
okay very i'm being framed why are you very yes it's it's very much like ted bundy getting caught with all that stuff in his car and he's like well i mean i have an ice pick for my it's a common household item and i have this tape because i have this and i have this because i have that yes i keep them all in a ski mask and some nylons because i put it on under my ski mask when i go one of any of those items is fine but when all of them are in one bag it's an
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He also likes guns here. So him and two of his friends took a bus to the gun exchange in Seattle to look at guns. Then he leads them, his friends, I don't know how he knew about this, but he leads them to a porn movie house and snuck them in. So this is fucking amazing. Here's a friend of his talks about this. And he talks about this as like, you know, a great day.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
This friend, he said, me and George and another guy like guns. So we all got scrubbed up and took a bus to the gun exchange in Seattle. Then he led us to a porny movie house. Porny.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We'll talk about it. This is in Western Washington, and it's about 20 minutes to Seattle. So suburb outside of Seattle, about an hour and 40 minutes to Everson, Washington, which was our last episode there. It was an Express episode called Ghost Hunter, where a woman said that she thought her boyfriend was a ghost, so she shot him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I've never heard it put like that before.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Pornish. No, P-O-R-N-I-E. Not even like with a Y, so it would be like corny and porny. No, porny. I've never heard of that before. A movie house called The Green Parrot. We went down the back alley and up the fire escape and into an empty building, then climbed through the rafters to a big cooling fan. Oh, my God. It's diehard going on here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Crawling through vents. We skinned through a ceiling hatch and dropped into the men's bathroom of the porny house.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. He said our clothes were smudged. We were a mess. But they got in to watch the movie.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. Like they'd been in there. Watch. Watch me a porny. Yeah. So he goes on to say the movie was about a hillbilly family. The man's getting a blowjob in a rocking chair. The woman says, why'd you go limp? Big Daddy. She looks up, says Big Daddy's dad. What? She sucked him to death? Yeah. It was so corny we were laughing out loud. Yeah, she sucked him. That's a blowjob. Sucked him to death.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Wow. Suck the life out of a hillbilly is a blowjob. They showed a famous old short, a knock on the door. The guy says pizza delivery. A woman answers and he unzips his fly and says, here's your pepperoni. Oh, we loved it. We were laughing so hard we got caught and had to run out the exit doors. Yeah. Everybody else is there to whack it. Adults go there to whack it. Not for entertainment.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Anybody laughing is underage, obviously. Anybody there who's 40 is there concentrating, fucking staring, looking through the screen. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
No shit. So he said that George went back a couple days later with a black kid from Mercer Island. They pulled the ceiling hatch and looked into the men's room and there's a guy standing in one of the stalls. They wait and wait for him to leave but finally another man walks in and the two of them do anal sex. So they watched these guys have live anal sex from the ceiling.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
George's friend had a fro comb in his hair, and it slipped out and fell into the men's room, and everybody ran. Yeah. You heard like a cork popping like a champagne bottle as those two guys separated. One guy ran one way. One guy ran the other. They went through the fucking rafters again.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. Either way. He said, it's a three-legged race now. He said, I always wondered how George learned about the green parrot. How did a 15-year-old kid even know about something like that? I asked, and he just kind of winked. Yeah, how would you know that? That's so weird.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Which is, you know, likely excuse, obviously, because I shoot at ghosts when I see them. That's what I would do right away. This is in King County, area code 425. The motto here, really sucking on Seattle's teat here, the gateway to Seattle.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Not even where you live, too. No. Someone said, like, if you were growing up in Phoenix when you were 12 and someone said, you know, there's a porn place in Tucson, you'd go, how the fuck do you know that? This is pre-internet.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, how the hell are we supposed to get there? That's crazy. You want us to take a bus to Tucson and you know a place? So he earned some nicknames in school here. George? Yeah, George. Apparently he's very agile, so they call him the Fly because he's little and agile.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They also call him Chicken George because that's a – That's not good, is it? No, but that's – Chicken George was in a book.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I can't remember. The Walking Bird or something? Some book that I've forgotten because it was a school book. They made us read in school.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, pretty much. They called him The Mouth because he talked a lot and Leapin' George.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Leapin' George. So by the time he got into high school, that's what he is. He's the fly and all that kind of shit. People called him Leapin' George after Leapin' Lee Winfield of the Seattle Supersonics. That's why they called him that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But they said that they also called him Chicken George or The Mouth because he chattered a lot and he would always, when he's playing basketball, would always say he got fouled on every play.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So they said he was a game player, but it wasn't basketball. It was chess, backgammon, checkers, poker, things like that. Thoughts, cerebral things, cerebral things. They said that he was so skilled that he would complain to friends that he had to play beneath his skill to get a game with these fucking people. He his friend Tom Hagar loved hanging out with him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He said, quote, He was so bright, so entertaining. He had an incredible memory. He wanted to be a writer and kept an ongoing list of our dead schoolmates. What? There's a whole, I'm not going to go through it because it's like four pages, but it's all of these kids have died from like weird accidents that happened to rich kids. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Like fucking skiing accidents and like kids killing themselves and.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, tried a dressage accident. You know how things go when you're rich. Kids doing shit like that, crashing their parents' Porsches. One kid actually, this is a fucking thing that happened, he cranked up his parents' very expensive car, him and his girlfriend did it, popped Freebird on the 8-track, cranked it up and ran into a wall as hard as they could and killed themselves. Oh, my. Suicide.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Suicide with Freebird fucking blaring through the A-track.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's a wild suicide. That's what rich kids do to kill themselves.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, they smashed the wall going 80 miles an hour and fucking back then no airbags. Just impaled themselves on the steering wheel. So he said he'd sit in his room and write out their stories. Good stuff. Publishable. He had stacks of yachting magazines, how to find the right sailboat, how to make your own, how to rig for storms, hurricanes, stuff on motorcycles, guns.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Has to be. History, a little bit of history. In 1886, a guy named Peter Kirk, where the Kirkland came from, was a British-born businessman who wanted to expand his family's steel production company. and wanted to go to Washington and do that because he heard iron deposits had been discovered in the Cascade Mountains.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We read spy magazines, went to spy movies. He said it's odd considering the way things turned out, but in our adolescence, we weren't big on girly magazines. We read them, but they weren't a special interest. Mainly we were dreamers. Anything was possible. We'd smoke a joint and ramble on. We'd get on our bikes and ride to Luther Burbank Park. and talk about sailing around the world.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
George had maps of every ocean on his walls. He figured out the winds, how to cross the Indian Ocean, how to handle the currents at Tierra del Fuego. Wow. He said, Wow. We went down to my dock and got two plastic garbage cans with locking tops, made a seal, locked them and put a hole in the top, screwed a hose in it. And then I said to George, we got to be crazy. And we both started laughing.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And George said, this will never work. And it didn't. Two garbage cans they tried to make a submarine out of. That's not going to work.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Very. Yeah. 14 at this point. Wow. He's really smart. That's the thing. He's got a really high IQ, but he doesn't translate that into anything that could be helpful for him at all. They said he wanted to be a detective, but we didn't buy the crime magazines. He was into CIA stuff where you nicked somebody with an umbrella tip and they died three weeks later. You know, like James Bond shit. Spies.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, spies. Intrigue. He had secretive ways. He'd stand outside my room at night and flash his little light till I saw him. That was a way better than throwing little pebbles, I guess. Yeah, that's a lot. He'd say things like, people in lighted houses can't see out their windows. That's important to remember. That's what he would tell his friend. I'd say, why is that important?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And he'd just shrug and smile. Nothing seemed to bother him. He got along with everybody. He said, no, I take that back. George didn't like to be excluded from anything. If he got left off a team or didn't get invited to a party, he'd sulk. I always wondered, what the hell did George get left out of when he was a little boy in Maryland? What was it that made him this way? And I never found out.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He got left out of his family. That's what he got left out of. His mom.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, but you can see inside real good. Creepy. Exactly. Creepy. That's what I'm saying. He's thinking about shit that, you know, it's one thing to have like a I'm going to sail around the world fantasy or some shit like that. But to think that in depth about something like that at 14 is creepy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So, yeah, he gets into like smoking a little weed and partying a little bit, but nothing, nothing real big here. By like the fall of 73, he gets angry when people call him black.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's not the term. You can call him anything you want. You can call him black, call him African-American, call it. He doesn't like it. Don't call me that. One friend said as a kid he never wanted to be referred to as black. You could get him hackled up real quick. He was visibly annoyed when a high school coach mentioned that Bill Russell Jr. was developing into a better basketball player than him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Gee, the son of a top 10 all-time player at the time, a top two all-time player in the history of the league is better than me? Weird. Is he 6'11 also? Because that would help. And he said that Buda, that's what they called Bill Russell's kid, Buda, Buda's headed for the NBA and you're not. Gee, thanks. I wasn't planning on it. George complained to his friends. Why do you compare me to Buddha?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Why not compare me to a white kid? Which he got a point. He did.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I mean, they classified it as that. So he also didn't like black women at all. Black girls at the time. No interest whatsoever. Only likes white girls at the time. He. They said after a while, this is from the book, an excerpt here that I'll tell you about later on what the book is. After a while, the color that George disdained gave him an entree into the high school elite.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So under this Kirkland Land and Development Company, he purchased thousands of acres of land in what's now downtown Kirkland. But this was in 1888 when it was just nothing. So they started the construction of a new steel mill. And he was saying, telling everyone that this was going to be the, quote, Pittsburgh of the West.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He was the perfect token, a walking proof of his friend's tolerance. He became the group of rich white kids and they have a black kid. And they're like, see, look, we're not racist. We have a black kid friend.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, they said. But therein lie the problems, as his friend Hagar recognized early. This is his friend, a quote from him. They treated him like their favorite eunuch. Jesus, that's a coming out the gate hard. God damn. He projected the image of the pet black and that was fine with the socialites, but they left him out of things that mattered.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They pretended to accept him as a friend because they knew they'd never have to take him seriously. I always felt this helped to cause the rage that came out later because he knew he was tight or because he was tight with a lot of girls and they tempted him like they tempted the rest of us, but they never let it go anywhere. George was permanently excluded and he knew it.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Those lily white socias were never going to put out for the local black guy. George just kept suffering, never complained. That would have been uncool. But we all felt that pain, not just George. Raging hormones. He rarely confided about girls. It was just another subject he wasn't open about. He told me he wanted love, not sex. He was always looking for the ideal woman to put on a pedestal.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But the ideal woman wasn't looking for him. That's what his friend said. So and also during this time, he sneaks. This is so 1973 or four. He sneaks his friends into a Led Zeppelin concert.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Fuck yeah. Do that. Rock on. Well, they played Seattle. Twelve dollars per ticket. Now, George told his friend Michael O'Hara, we don't need to pay shit. I got us covered. So this is his friend's quote here. He told me to meet him outside the Kingdome fence an hour before the concert. The Kingdome's where the Mariners and the Seahawks used to play. Yeah, it's gone now, but it was big.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
When I got there, he was wearing a parking attendant's jacket, brown and orange polyester. So uncool, so unlike George. But it put me in hysterics. He flips a bundle over the fence and there's an attendant jacket inside. I slipped it over my clothes and walked right into the Kingdome parking lot.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
George and I are directing traffic as we edge toward the employee entrance. They'd stop every once in a while, pretend they were working. Yeah. Wow. Smart. Yeah. He said, quote, and a lot of us were drifting, not just George. Half the high school smoked pot, maybe 20 percent took harder drugs, acid, acid, mushrooms, hash, maybe 90 percent drank.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We spent a lot of time in our forts smoking, drinking. On Friday nights, the cops would come storm trooping through the woods and George would disappear. Interpol couldn't have found him after the cops left. He'd climb out of his foxhole grinning. He loved to outwit people, especially cops.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. Didn't quite happen. And the company ended up amounting to nothing. And another steel company opened up and took all what they wanted. Oh, whoops. Totally over. But he did get the town named after him. So there is that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yes. It's very odd here. He's at. Then he starts doing. Then he started like sneaking, stealing things from people's little school lockers and stuff like that. Soon he was sneaking into people's houses while they slept and taking souvenirs, as he called it, like cash and jewelry and also just standing over women while they slept and watching them.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's really fucked up. And that's weird. The local cops didn't know what to do. And they thought that they just had like this mystery burglar going on. People breaking in, but nothing major being stolen. That's the weird part. I mean, like there could be a stack of hundred dollar bills and 120 in the 20 be gone. that's the way weird shit like that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, in this time, that couple had had a little girl, a little sister of George. So mom and the sister... Oh, the sister's not mad. She's like three. But mom, very mad at the stepfather, leaves him and takes the sister and moves to Maryland and leaves George with his stepfather.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Dude, how many times can you be abandoned by your mother and not feel shitty about it? And to be left with this guy who's not even your dad?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's fucking crazy. So that's wild. She apparently accepted a teaching position at the University of Maryland. And... It's crazy. They one of their friends said they both wanted out, meaning of the marriage. Both participants. Wanzel was seeing a white businesswoman and Joyce hated the idea of being in the same town with the two of them, maybe running into them socially.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, Costco previously had its headquarters in Kirkland.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
She needed to get as far away from the situation as possible. She and the Wanzell family agreed that Erica, the daughter, would move east with Joyce but spend summer vacations on Mercer Island. When it came to George, it was like, you take him. No, you take him. No, you take him. No one wanted him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So they said Wanzel ended up with a 16-year-old kid who was already stealing him blind. You got to give the man credit. He tried to do the right thing. Think about it. They weren't even blood, which is true. That is true. Just to feed him is more than he's required to. Just to give him a room. He doesn't need to do shit for him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
This week in Kirkland, Washington, what seems like one horrifying but simple murder quickly turns into a serial killer stalking the area and escalating his horrible acts to a Ted Bundy level of brutality. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Just before Christmas, 74, is when Joyce and Erica moved to Maryland. And they said close friends noticed an immediate just dampening of George's boisterousness. Just not doesn't have the same thing anymore. One of his friends called it a slippage of spirit that he would try to just gloss over. Now, shortly after that. Dr. Wanzel Mobley has a new wife, and he's got a new stepmom.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Headquarters are in a different place, but they kept the namesake of the Kirkland Signature store brand. That's because that's where they were based out of. That's the only reason why.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Which is weird as fuck, because that's like a step-stepmom. Is that a double step?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's either a double step or nothing, right? It's nothing. It's step-step or nothing. I don't know. Yeah, it's just my ex-stepfather's wife, I guess. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But I guess they loved this lady. Her name was Chris. And his friend Tom Hagar, this is George's friend, said, quote, Chris was nice to us, prim, proper, respectable, and gorgeous. When she arrived, all us adolescent boys went, ooh-la-la. I'm sure she tried to play down her looks, but she was 12 years younger than Wanzel and still a knockout. She really had our motors running.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
George's mother had always worn hats and glasses and looked like a professor. Not unattractive, but Chris was different. Yeah, Chris was a second wife.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Not a first wife, that's why.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, exactly. They said right from the start, she tried hard to work with George to change his ways, and she helped Wanzel fit into the neighborhood. The older, wealthier people always considered him, quote, the black guy. They didn't know him. But Chris arranged cookouts and get togethers and old islanders then said, my God, Dr. Mobley's black, but he's not that different. Wow. What a thought.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
My God in front of that, James. My God. My God. What was it? A fucking blast from the past. Oh, my lucky star is a Negro. That's what they said. It feels like that's what they're saying. Oh, my. Look at him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
What the hell is that? Yeah, Walmart's got Great Value stuff at Kirkland. Is it Great Value? Yeah, Great Value. We've done several on your stupid opinions, like the Great Value pizza.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Strange. I mean, I look, too. It's a different color. It's weird. It was an astounding discovery for some of those dinosaurs. Yeah. Incredible. How many black people do they know living on Mercer Island their whole life? Pretty soon, the Mobleys were the only racially mixed couple in a manual Episcopal church. The kids went on to say, my mom wound up crazy about Chris and very fond of Wanzel.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
After that, they were always a part of my family's lives. So now around this time, there starts to be some stories that confidential police files have somehow made their way from the police station and locked drawers to the halls of the high school on Mercer Island. I wonder how that happened. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So reviews of this town. We've never been there. Let's find out what the people think. Here's five stars, and there's a lot of good reviews of this town, too. There's tons of good ones.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
No. I don't have seven kids. What the fuck do I need? Why would I need to buy things in that volume? I don't need three cases of fucking chicken nuggets. I just don't need that to come in one box. That's crazy. A pallet of cheese puffs. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. He drops out of high school, never graduated, poor attendance record, failing classes, and then dropped out as a senior.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, I don't want a dresser full of Raisin Bran. That's too much Raisin Bran for me. I can't eat all that, so it's going to be bad stuff here. Let's get to reviews here. Five stars. Kirkland is a beautiful small city on the east side of Lake Washington. Downtown Kirkland is a lively seaside area often populated by swift walking locals and their adorable dogs.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Well, even the dogs are cuter in Kirkland. That's nice. With summers, there's a weekly farmer's market that brings new trinkets and delicious food options to the area. So my personal experience in Kirkland has been nothing short of wonderful. Yeah, yeah. Wow, this is crazy. All right, here's five stars. I've lived in Kirkland ever since I was born in 1997 of May. That's how he writes it.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
This is not looking good for him. But with these rich kids, it doesn't really work like that. You can always figure it out, and if you keep propping them up, give them an internship enough of the time, eventually they'll get burned out of this shit. That's how rich people deal with shit.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Ah, they're born again Christian. They're fucking doing great. Yeah. So at this point, he's sleeping in abandoned houses, Georges, under houses that are occupied. Yeah. He gets under them, just in the high grass, sleeps in the field, sometimes in his old forts. Yeah. He removed the vent from the swimming pool heating duct and crawled in there at a park. Did the same with the grate at a bank.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
People would come home and find their bed messed up, the heater turned on, and food on the table. They said if there was snow on the ground, you could track him in and out of every yard. You could see exactly where he went. One family, the Ferris family, had a boat cabana, and they'd come down in the morning, and they'd find him wrapped up and around the base of the toilet in the boat cabana.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
A little boathouse. A boathouse, yeah. Yeah. A friend let him sleep in his crawl space. Not that great of a friend if he said, I mean, I guess you could stay, but you got to go in the crawl space. That's a pretty shitty friend.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I don't care. I give my friends couches and shit. Maybe even a bed. There's a crawl space if you could squeeze into it, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yes. Wow. There was an old garage back in the woods near his home, and he finally just moved in there. There's no heat, no light, no toilet. And the cop said we'd shine our police flashlights through the blackberry bushes, and he'd peek out and yell, no problem, officer. Thanks for checking. I'm fine. And then he'd say, how's the wife? How's everything at the station?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Gee, I'll have to drop in and see you guys. From the blackberry bushes in a stocking. Right. That's odd. They said some of those nights it was below freezing, and we didn't have the heart to turn him out. So he'd have unsteady jobs. He's depending on petty thievery and other misdemeanors and shit like that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
One of that Sergeant Booth became one of the first to realize that what he's doing isn't so innocent, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said George would try every car door he passed looking for change, cigarettes, cassette tapes and small stuff. Then he'd sell it or trade it. He'd go to parties and leave it with a leave with a ring or a watch. Steal shit. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Mostly he operated in the north end of the island where he was raised. The south end was uphill and George was lazy. Literally, they don't want to walk up hills. When we stopped him, he was usually on foot unless we caught him on a stolen bike. And then he'd say a kid loaned it to him. What kid, George? I don't know. I just met them, he'd say.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I bet he stole 100 bikes on Mercer Island, mostly from boys who thought that he was their friend. Then he moved to a little bit more shit here. He'd steal somebody's wallet. And if he'd get caught from somebody else by the cops, he'd smile and go, I was teaching him a lesson.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Of May. I've grown to love the beautiful atmosphere of nature and friendly neighbors. The local food is amazing and the parks are always clean. It's a quiet place to raise a family, but not great if you like to go out to clubs, as most suburbs aren't real big on nightlife. The rent is incredibly inflated as well. This is a very expensive area, by the way. Is that right? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Got to be a little street smart, yeah. They said everything was a game. They said he'd meet some rich family and get in with them, and then just long enough to figure out where they hid their hide-a-keys, and then they'd get burglarized. That's how it would work. And people, they said a lot of the neighbors couldn't bring themselves to turn him in.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And one guy said, how could you hold a grudge against good old George?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He's just a charmer, and that's the thing. The book on him is called Charmer. That's the name of it. That's what it is. So they said you'd ask how he was doing, and he'd give you 10 minutes of how things were fine with him and his dad and Chris and his new baby brother, who he's not related to at all.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
How is his mom? Oh, great. Teach him back East. Give him lectures. She just sent me a nice birthday present. I talked to her on the phone last night. Blah, blah, blah. It was all bullshit. He was living on the street. Didn't talk to these people anymore. Had nothing.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Dr. Mobley said to the cop, or the cop says about Dr. Mobley, Dr. Mobley had me check his closets and under his beds because George was sneaking back in at night and they didn't want to confront him. I got the impression that George was still bothering Chris, too, and I agreed that this could turn dangerous. And they said every time we stopped him, by the way, he had the same things in his bag.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He'd have a duffel bag with a police scanner.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Miniature chess and backgammon sets, a playboy or a penthouse, and general pictures of girls.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. Random. Yeah. Odd. He would take people's cars and the police scanners a big deal. So he knew all the local cop channels. So he would listen in what was going on and listen in whether he was going to get caught or not. One of the cops said we seldom nailed him for burglary. We usually had to settle for criminal trespass, which means we caught him where he didn't belong.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Said he'd trip an alarm and we'd drive up and he'd be doing the George Russell heel and toe down the street with the scanner at his ear. Oh, hi, officer. How's it going? He knew they were on the way, so he got out. That's what he would do. They said he had a long string of burglaries on First Hill. Chippy stuff. He was a major criminal of minor crimes.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
People would call and say, I had $40 in my wallet when I went to bed. I heard a noise in the middle of the night and now I got $20. He wouldn't even take the whole $40. That's what I mean.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's fucking weird. It's creepy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's so weird, but that's just a strange. I guess he thinks that maybe they won't notice that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, it doesn't make sense. It makes you sound crazy when you call the cops. Or they'd say, my front door's open and I'm sure I left it closed. Or I heard somebody downstairs but nobody answered. By the way, this is such a ritzy area. People call the cops for that. My front door's open and I'm sure I closed it. I would have never. Yeah. Then close it, stupid.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. Well, good. Then no one's in your house. Go back to sleep, you fucking idiot. That's what the cops would have told me where I'm from. Like, what is wrong with you? He said, we knew it was George. Who the hell else would ignore $1,000 rings and steal a Mickey Mouse watch? He'd hit the same house three or four times. I began to suspect that there was a sexual aspect to it.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
This is like an upscale suburb of an expensive city. Seattle's already an expensive city. Yeah. And the burbs are expensive, too. Here's three stars. Properties on the water are expensive but very nice. Mostly apartment housing. Very few abandoned properties. Yeah. Places where there's high real estate values, you're not going to get a lot of abandoned.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
In nighttime intrusions, there often is. Said if we could have caught him with the goods, things might have been different. But he had rat holes. We'd find his stash in the woods and we couldn't tie it to him. It was like connecting a squirrel with his acorns. Loot didn't stick to him long. He'd trade it or hide it or give it away. George had a big need to give as he had to take.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But first he had to have something to give. Earrings, rings, bracelets, all from his burglaries. So, yeah, he would take the small shit. He would impersonate a cop, too. He'd go into a bar and be like, yeah, I'm investigating a bunch of coke being sold in here, so I'm going to be investigating all this shit, so you should go ahead and give me free drinks now and shit like that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Spend a lot of short stretches in jail, two days a week, things like that. Tom Hagar, the kid who was his best friend who then got his jag stolen all the time, said the first time I went to visit him in King County Jail, he'd been there less than a week and was already a trustee handing out milk, running errands, working in the dispensary.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
doing the like four or five years in yeah doing the fucking life or shit yeah jail was the closest George ever got to the pension system he really needed three meals a day cable TV full medical and dental he figured that King County Jail beat Dr. Washington's tough love if only they'd let him sleep a little later he'd be fine Doesn't get along with the other black inmates, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They all call him Oreo. That's his name. His name is Oreo because they say that he looks black and talks white and acts white.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
You act, yep. Wow. So they said that he had a few flare-ups. He didn't like them either. He thought they were beneath him, the jail guys there. One of the prisoners said when George acted like a brother, quote unquote, he was doing an impression of a black guy, basically. Yeah, it's weird. He's basically like Carlton from Fresh Prince.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, so they said that they called him Oreo all the time. They called him House N-Word. They called him Tom, which is short for Uncle Tom. And they called him a snitch, too.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So, yeah, they said if guys that didn't know him came up and talked to him in, like, slang and street shit, he would look at them because he didn't understand. He was like, I don't know what you're talking about, which they were like, all right, Oreo, and then that would be that. Jesus. So, yeah, he said he enunciated and things he said, he would say that this didn't happen. It transpired.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It transpired. That transpired. He didn't say I graduated. He said I was graduated. You know, proper English. You know, I'm not in jail. I'm incarcerated. I don't talk to people. I interact with them. Uses words like consensus of opinion and shit like that, which. It doesn't get a lot of shit thrown around jail, probably, I would think. So he 1978 ish. He's out of jail.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He's hired as the assistant manager of a teen disco. Perfect for him. Called Tonight's the Night. TNT or TTN. Tonight's the night. You're finally going to get fingered. Here it is, everybody. It's happening. It's a friend of his that knows him that hired him for this whole deal. He checked IDs, collected tickets, worked the ropes and the velvet rope outside there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Someone's going to get in there and sell it. Then two stars. Streetlights are not great for nighttime driving. That's it. That's the whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He's got to make it like a nightclub even though it's for kids. And he would also steal shit as well. He would pass his friends to the front of the line and really be a real hard ass on troublemakers. And one of the security guards said he would lose it real easy whenever a kid would ask, would question his authority, especially if the kid was female. They'd say, well, who are you?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And George would yell, hey, bitch, I'm the guy that's going to throw your little ass out of here. Little aggressive, I would say. And it said he was normally so jolly and jocular. And then this would happen here. But when he got drunk, he'd be a different guy completely. They said a barroom acquaintance complained to George that her boyfriend hit her. And he said, where's the guy live? Let's go.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
We'll blow up his car. I'll show you how. Come on. We'll go get some gas. Wow. He steals thousands of dollars from Tonight's the Night over a couple year period. Really? That's to be expected. Oh, yeah. Absolutely, man.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Right out of the till. And also causes more trouble. Here's a police story from him at a private party. We had a complaint that he was causing trouble at a private party. We found him hiding under a bed. OK, George, we said, come on out. He knew we couldn't arrest him. He just says, I'm I'm just helping these guys clean the house, you know, get under the bread under the bed and everything.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He said they want all these diamonds and there is dust bunnies under here. You wouldn't believe. So they said they want you out, George. And he said, I'm staying. And they said, you're out of here. And at that point, the guy said, quote, George completely lost it. This is the first time they're seeing the other side of him. They said he completely lost it. He slobbered. He spit.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He went crazy, called us white trash, honky bigots, screaming. He always kept his temper concealed. Whenever I handled him after that, I didn't think of him as cute little George or the station mascot. I thought of him as a mean son of a bitch.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Whole review of the town is that. That's like saying that this Taco Bell isn't good for 2 a.m. drunk eating. What else is it there for? It's its job. Yeah. So people of this town, population is 91,656. That's now. When this all happened, there was less people there. It's exactly 50-50 male and female here, which we never see for some reason.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah. At one point here, he wrecks a car. Also, he had a BMW that he took from a friend of his. And I guess he his friend said he was doing 60 in a 35 weaving back and forth across the center line. It was worse than bad driving. It was like psychotic driving. It was psychotic. He claimed he knew all about performance cars because he'd driven his dad's Ferrari.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Because, by the way, the dentist has a Ferrari.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But you could see that he didn't have a clue. Then three weeks later, George rolled that car on West Mercer Way. And he had an explanation. They said, quote, the cops checked the skid marks and found out that those special T7 nylon tires have no traction until they're warmed up. It was also the tires' fault when he totaled a friend's Datsun on a drive from California.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
At 5 a.m., he spun off Interstate 5 near Redding and broke through the median rail, fracturing his femur. He blamed the accident on a blowout, but police thought he fell asleep at the wheel. Then he lost control of his 1981 gold Honda Civic, wiped out a fence, and crashed into a tree...
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
When police arrived, he was on his feet babbling, and the report from the police said Russell denied driving the car, stating it had been stolen from him, even though he's there with it.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He stated he just happened to be driving by and found his car crashed there, so he got in and tried to drive it out. Uh-huh. There's no other car there, though. Where's your car?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Russell stated to me when I arrested him, quote, you're lucky if I had a gun, you'd be dead. He told the cop that. Oh, God damn. So he also sentenced to one day in jail for using plates from a stolen stolen from a friend to put on a car. His stepmom went to court after one of the car accidents and blamed his bad behavior on his biological mom leaving. So he's had a hard time.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he deserves another chance. Yeah. Also tried to break into the tonight's the night club owner's car was arrested but escaped out of a holding room at the police station. I'll say that again. They took him to the police station and he escaped. They know who he is. This is ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He finally got caught and arrested and convicted finally of his first felony, which is escaping the police station. Not allowed to do that. He is sentenced to 10 months in county jail for that. Finally. Now, around this time, obviously, he had also at the same time been like giving the cops tips about drug dealers and shit like just anonymously forming.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Very weird. Very, very weird. Also, they said he had a unique way of using his police connections to gain women's trust. That's why a lot of times these serial killers pose as cops. They pull women over like Ted Bundy did that. Other people did it. It's terrifying. They said it worked a lot of the times.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But if his advances fell flat, he'd take the rejection personally and get really angry and be like all heated for like 10 minutes before he'd calm down and then go to the next check. He couldn't just be like, oh, well. So they said his temper was starting to worry his friends. He couldn't hold a legitimate job.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He carried all his possessions, including his collection of porn mags in a duffel bag and in paper bags. And his daytime home was the apartment of whoever the fuck he could was his friend at the time, basically. And then he told everybody he worked as an undercover cop at night. Wow. So people liked him still because he showed that good side of him. It's great.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But people said he showed no emotion, no guilt, growing hostility toward women. He was a growing obsession with sex. They said he'd hit on anybody. Didn't matter. A bartender started calling him the schizo because his personality changed so profoundly after drinks. He's also one of these guys. You get booze in the system.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Different guy. They said cool, lovable George annoyed women and barely avoided fights with their boyfriends. He seemed to revel in baiting females, then slipping away to stir up trouble somewhere else. A friend said George tried to surround himself with girls, but they never really liked him. You only had to watch him for five minutes to see it. Nobody knew why.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Median age is like exactly the national average too, 37.8, like exactly what it is. Family here, 55% married. Way less people have children and are single. Everybody's like married with children. Expensive suburb, that kind of thing. Race of this town, 72.6% white, 1.1% black, 14% Asian, and 7% Hispanic. So spread around there. Religious, it's about 38% religious.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Probably because he's like 5'1", I would assume.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Oh, my God. Yeah, he comes up. He's like a tiny, he's like a drunken dwarf. Nobody wants to fucking, who wants to bang that guy? You know what I mean? Vern Troyer was the only one that could pull that off.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's weird. Yeah, it's fucking weird.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's strange. Yeah, I feel. Well, that's because as an adult and this sounds so bad because it's time we know these are adults and everything like that. But we look at little people as children for some reason, even though they're not. You know what I mean? Obviously, they're not.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I don't mean intellectually think of them as children. I mean our brains react to, oh, it's a little child. It's cute. It's a cute little person. It's like, no, that's an adult person. But our brains, intellectually, we know that. And that's why we don't go up to them and offer them candy and stuff.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But 82 to 85 here in this era, he is phoning tips into Crime Watch. He starts having sex with teenagers now. Has a relationship, if you could call it that. We'll say he molested a 14-year-old girl, let's just say. She said the sex was consensual, though, which you can't have consensual sex with an adult when you're 14. That's impossible. That word's definition doesn't work for that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Later, though, he forced her to perform oral sex on him. He admitted that he tried to leave his younger sister, who's like three years old at this point, not even a sister, his stepfather and step step mother's kid, his ex step dad's kid had a gas station when she was younger. Just tried to leave her there. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He's arrested for stealing a TV lottery ticket, selling beer to minors, sentenced to 30 days in jail. But he ends up serving seven months because he's a dick in jail, too. Gets out, hangs around Mercer Island, and he's doing his same old shit. Now, a lot of his friends, they'll still let him crash at their house. He'll borrow their car. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Because they said he'd turn around and cook you a gourmet dinner. Yeah. Treat your friends to a round of drinks. Give you, you know, earnest advice and be all of this and, you know, be all cool and smile and huggy and all that kind of shit. And they were like, oh, wow. They just liked him. The police chief said Russell was regarded as more of a character than dangerous.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He said he was more of a sneak thief or anything like that. Every time they picked him up, though, he's armed with a knife. Anything from a kitchen knife to an old bayonet. So, yeah, he's always got some form of blade on him.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Of some kind. Now, they never heard of him using the knife to hurt anybody, but they said they did have information that he had brandished the knife on a couple of occasions. Yeah. The one the police chief said he was a good talker. He was, I suppose, for lack of a better word, charming.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They said he probably could have been anything he wanted to be. He was very knowledgeable about a lot of different subjects. Often when police arrested him, he'd have a backpack with books on him. Now, they all had pictures of pussies in them, but still, they were books. They said the cops didn't fear him. They said there are people like that. They don't assault police officers.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They make you chase them. He's a chaser. He's not a he's a he doesn't run at you. He runs away from you. He's that guy. He's also the only prisoner who ever broke out of the city's temporary holding cell facility as well. Never happened before. Yeah. He kicked a window out, crawled through and escaped. And they said.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's what I mean. It wasn't like a diabolical. It wasn't Tango and Cash. You know what I'm saying? Where they had to slide down an electrical wire to get out the gates at the end.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Come through the fucking ground like Raising Arizona. John Goodman popping his head out.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Fuck. They said he was a model prisoner who seemed to do very well in a controlled environment except for that one escape. So he at some point wants to marry a 14 year old. Why? I don't know. He wrote letters to this 14 year old talking about marriage and that they have forever and also would talk about anal sex fantasies with her. And he got her pregnant and she had an abortion.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he got a 14 year old pregnant. May of 87.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, no shit. He was going the wrong route there. Yeah. May of 87 released from jail after seven months. So biology isn't the strongest subject we figured out. Five weeks later, he ends up pleading guilty to a charge of criminal trespassing and possession of a dangerous weapon. Spent five days in jail and finally underwent psychological counseling. Let's see here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And the highest group here is going to be Catholics with 15.5%, which isn't that high. Yeah, as we know, the Catholics are the Baptists of the Pacific Northwest. Obviously, we all know that.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The results here, they found him to be, let's read this out, self-centered, limited in capacity to form deep interpersonal relationships, quite impulsive, demonstrates poor judgment, having little patience or frustration tolerance. A risk taker, often rebellious toward authority figures and has trouble incorporating traditional standards and values of society.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He is diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, which doesn't mean you don't like people. It means that you're he's dang actively. Yes, it's around that time that he gets banned from a Denny's.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, you can be kicked out of a Denny's. That happens. But to be banned permanently from a Denny's, you got to really do something, man.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yes, lower than the other drunks at 3 a.m. that are smoking and falling asleep into their mozzarella sticks, like into their fucking moons over Miami. Wow. He got banned for stealing tips off the table. He didn't work there. He'd just go in and steal tips off the table.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Wow, so he gets banned. 1988, he's hired at an arcade, the Nintendo Arcade.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Well, Nintendo, Seattle, think about it. That's their big deal there. He ends up skimming $23,000 in eight months. From the arcade? From an arcade.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, especially the Nintendo one. Yeah, it was probably big hot shit at the time. Wow. Yeah, I don't know. He walked down the street jingling and jangling like crazy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's weird because normally he weighed about 130 pounds, but after a shift, he weighed about 210 pounds. It was very strange. Then in 1989, after he's fired from that job for stealing, he tells everybody that will listen that he has turned over a new leaf and he is now a born again Christian. So no need to fear anymore. He's all fine. All right. He even meets a nice lady.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Of the entire Cascade Mountain region. So the unemployment rate here is about the national average. It's pretty low. And median household income here is very high. National average is $69,021. Here it is $121,998. Almost double. That is a healthy income they got going on there. They're doing fantastic. The problem is the cost of living is equally as high. That's the issue here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He moves in with an of-age woman named Mindy. She's a blue-eyed, beautiful girl named Mindy. He, of course, began physically abusing her and showing just an us level of interest, which is an unhealthy level of interest in the Green River Killer murder case and the 49 victims because that was when they were still looking for him. So, yeah, an unhealthy obsession with the Green River Killer.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He went to jail for five days for drug charges, committed about 60 burglaries in Kirkland during this time. February 20th, 1990, he's arrested for domestic assault for beating up Mindy, I think. 1990, right after that, he's banned from the Black Angus restaurant. This guy is really class. That's class right there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So you're telling me, yeah, you're telling me I can't go to fucking Denny's and I can't get a shitty steak either? Jesus, come on.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
No shit. He was a regular customer at Black Angus. Really? From 89 through March of 1990 when he's banned from the restaurant. And we'll find out why in a little later. But he was very angry about being banned from the Black Angus. Like, wow, that was furious. Furious. What's next? Outback? Texas Roadhouse? I won't stand for it. June 22nd, 1990.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That is when Mary Ann Polreich, remember her from the beginning of the show? She is 27 years old. She works at a medical device manufacturing company. Remember, she was found on the 23rd. This is the 22nd. She went to Papagayo's. P-A-P-A-G-A-Y-O. Yeah, it's a nightclub here. Known as a place where you go meet people. It's like a singles bar type of drive.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's exactly what meat, M-E-E-T, they say. It was known as a, quote, meat market. So she went with her friends that night. This is in Bellevue. The three drove in Mary Ann's 1984 Camaro. She's drunk. Hell yeah. Her two friends left at about 9.30 p.m., but she stayed behind. She wanted to hang out and party. She's like, I didn't come here to fucking bitch out at 9.30.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
You guys can go wherever you want. Now, George is also there that night with his friend Smith McClain to have dinner. Hanging out with his buddy, having dinner. Once they were there, Russell and another friend talked to Marianne a little bit. After they ate dinner, Russell here, George, borrows the keys to his friend's truck, Smith McClain.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
explaining that he had to change into a shirt with a collar because that's what the dance floor required at the bar. He had to have a collar on for some fucking reason. Those guys don't rape people, James. No, no, no. You put a collar on and you are aces from then on. Now he's got a collar. So he had a duffel bag in the truck and he was going to go change.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he goes outside with the keys and doesn't come back in. Oh. Never comes back. Smith McClain looks outside. His fucking truck is gone. So is his buddy. They're all gone. So this Smith McClain is pissed off and he spent the rest of the evening waiting at the Overlake Denny's restaurant in Overlake where that's where people from Papagayo's would go after closing to the Denny's.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's how hard it is to get kicked out of Denny's. That's where all the drunks go.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
All of that. So he waits all night. He never shows up. At about 5.30 a.m., this guy finally finds a ride home because he doesn't have his truck anymore. So, that morning, the morning that Marianne's body's discovered, that same morning, George calls Smith-McClain's house, and he said, oh, man, where you been? This is George talking. He said, where you been? I was looking for you all night.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
All night. Well, I was at the bar till closing. You know, the place you said you were going to be back in five fucking minutes. That's where I was for most of it. Then I went to Denny's until the sun came up. What the fuck, man? Until the drunks fell asleep and then I left. So at about 6 a.m., McLean's sister saw George return in the truck.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So shows up to McLean, Smith McLean's house with the truck. George told her he borrowed the truck to drive a friend home and then he couldn't find her brother. So that's what happened. During this conversation, the sister notices a reddish orange stain on the passenger seat of the truck. That wasn't there before. Russell said, oh, yeah, my friend that I picked up vomited clam chowder everywhere.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
100 is regular in the United States for cost of living. Here it is 158. Yeah, two and a half. That's expensive. The housing is the high one. That's the big one here. The housing is a 329 out of 100. Holy. The median home cost here, $1,055,900. Median.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Manhattan, apparently. Yeah, not New England, I guess here. So George declined the offer of a ride home from the sister and just walked away with his duffel bag. Yeah. Now, Smith McClain woke up well after George had left and went outside to inspect his truck. He smelled a strong offensive odor that reminded him of vomit or the smell of a deer gutted after a hunting kill.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Those are very different things.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's either death or vomit. I can't tell.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's either the canal of an interior of an animal or... That puke.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, George Russell had spoken previously about a woman with a Porsche. That woman's name was Tamara Francis. Now, Francis knows him, but never left that bar with him at all. So, now that same morning, that is when old Jimmy finds the body of Marianne outside the dumpster by the Black Angus. Now, a little bit more of this here. They say here that the...
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The post-mortem injuries obviously are spending all that time with the body like we talked about is not normal. They decide from a medical examination here that there's a number of significant injuries. The most likely cause of death was manual strangulation.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
She also, her skull is fractured and has numerous facial injuries that appear to be inflicted by a fist.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So beaten until her skull fucking cracked. Okay. Her liver, they assume that someone was kicking her so hard that it split her liver in two, basically in two pieces. Jesus. Broke her liver. She also had a distinct anal tear that the medical examiner opined was caused by a solid non-human object. Oh, boy. Her blood alcohol level was .14 at the time of her death.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So drunk, but not falling over drunk. And they said, yeah, the posing and all of that, very strange here. Now, back at the bar, her car is still there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's still at the bar, the 84 Camaro. And inside the bar is her purse and sweater as well.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
What woman leaves anywhere without her purse if she's out with it? A purse and sweater.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Absolutely. You got to have your license to all that shit. So they said finding the car and her purse and sweater at the bar. The police detective said that tells us she wasn't intending on leaving that place. She'd left against her will. So they investigate. One of the bouncers is a Bellevue police officer that was working off duty. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
median that is rough man that's what i mean this is yeah your average house is a million dollars that's you're pricing out the riffraff i guess i guess so and wait till we tell you about these houses i mean these start yeah with our matter of fact let's get to it right now with the kirkland washington real estate report
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And he often spoke with George, who was a frequent patron of Papagayo's. And that night he saw Russell twice, he said. Once shortly after his shift began at 1030 p.m. and again approximately an hour later. On the second occasion, George told this officer that he was going to, quote, take this girl over to her place to get something. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The officer did not see the woman well enough to identify her. However, he described her size and general description, and it's similar to Marianne. And he also said he noticed the woman seemed pretty intoxicated as well. Yeah. So that night, that's what happens there. Okay. Now let's talk about Carol Marie Beeth or Beethy. B-E-E-T-H-E. I think it's Beeth probably. She's 35 years old.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
She is a bartender at Cucina Cucina. Which is a restaurant in Bellevue, Double Cochina. She lived in a condo with her two kids. Her ex-husband, Paul, lived very nearby, very close. Now, August 8th, 1990, Carol speaks with her ex-husband, Paul, about 930 p.m. At about 10.30 p.m., she spoke with her boyfriend, Mike Sewell, with whom she's planning on going on vacation. They talk.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
At midnight, she's out. She's out and about. She meets a friend at a restaurant where he was the bartender and left at approximately 2.15 p.m. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The average two-bedroom rental here goes for $2,680, which is almost like Manhattan prices. That's a lot. That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, that's insane. Here is a six-bedroom, three-bath. Sounds like they made a couple of big bedrooms into two smaller bedrooms type of thing.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
That's possible here. Out in the hallway. Line up out in the hallway. As long as there's a master bath, we don't care what you two do out there. You kids do. 3,059 square feet. It just looks like a basic house. It's like a raised ranch looking house. It's not like anything spectacular. Nothing wonderful.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Andrea Levine is 24 years old. She goes by Randy with an I. And she goes to some of the same places everybody else went, the same nightclubs the other two went to. She rented a basement apartment in the home of Robert Hayes and his wife here. And on August 30th, 1990, the landlord, Robert Hayes, saw Randy after she returned from work.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
You can't even really tell what the inside looks like because it's all photoshopped to be staged, basically. So that's weird. It is $1,775,000. Bottom rung home. No land either. This is on like a little lot of a house. I mean, there's no like, you know, acre of woods or something. None of that shit. Next up, four bedroom, four bath, T-hole, T-bowl, T-bowl, T-hole, T-bowl for each and every B-hole.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Later that evening, Randy met her boyfriend at a restaurant in Kirkland where they discussed plans to go to the San Juan Islands. So somebody else going on vacation.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
She was known for her sarcasm and being witty as well. This one. Same as Carol. Same as Carol. They said that she is known for urging on, going along with flirting, and then rejecting a guy and being like, I don't think so. Fuck off. Yeah. The night this night, she met several of her girlfriends for a drink, but left the bar alone, according to her friends.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, none of her acquaintances could recall her chatting with or teasing any guys that night. They said, was she breaking balls that night? No. They said she hadn't been there that long and she wasn't in her usual high spirits. So she took off from the Maple Gardens, which is a bar, not long after midnight, they figured, saying she was tired after a long day.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And they figured that she drove home in her pickup truck and went straight home and went to bed. So she declined to ride home and drove herself home to pack for her vacation at about 1.30 a.m. So drove herself home. Now, the next morning, the landlord, Bob Hayes, and his wife woke up about 5 a.m. They opened the back door to let their dogs out. The dogs began barking like fucking crazy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Soon as they let him out, he stepped out to look around and saw a dark figure just in the dark. Couldn't see who it was. Just a figure silhouette about 25 to 30 feet away. So, yeah, he was roaming along the exterior wall near Randy's rear window by the basement. Now, he threw on his robe and put a leash on his dog and went out to confront what he thought was someone trying to break into his house.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But they said that the dogs must have scared the guy away and he took off and the guy took off and he couldn't catch up to him, the landlord. Yeah. So he said, all right, scared that guy off. He checked his property, didn't find any broken windows or jimmied locks or anything like that. Everything was in place. So he figured, hey, I thwarted it. Good for me.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely insane, brutal, and awful and hilarious episode of Small Town Murder. We have a crazy episode for you today, another serial killer in our midst, and a really strange one, too. Just an odd guy, and lucky he was caught when he did. Put it that way. We'll get into all of that and more.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So he checked the window closest to where he spotted him and inadvertently realized that it was Randy's bedroom window. And he said he could see her asleep in bed. And he felt like, oh, God, I intruded. I'm looking in the window at this girl sleeping. Holy shit. So he said he stepped back, went into his own house, gave the dog some treats. That was it. Felt like a pervert and a piece of shit.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I know I didn't whack it, but still.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
3,520 square feet. This is on .32 acres. A third of an acre. It's a fancy log cabin. It's got nice windows.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Felt awful. So he said that he was glad to get rid of that guy. He said there had been some break-ins in the building only a couple days earlier. Randy had told him there had been a number of things missing from her apartment. So someone must have broke in. He said since then he's made it a habit to keep an eye out. And he said maybe he scared the guy off for good this time.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But he never saw the person. He said it looked like a thin, young, and agile man. That's all he could get out of it. We don't know. Could have been a ninja. We have no idea.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It was dark. Yeah. So he said it was just an adult with a white with a white form, approximately two thirds the width of of the person or in front of the individual's abdomen. He said he called out and fled. He called out. The guy fled. He said he chased him a short distance, but stopped because he was unarmed.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And he just called the police and the police examined the exterior and said, all right, everything looks good and that's fine. So days go by. Days go by, and the following Monday, the landlord's wife here, the landlady, I guess, went into Randy's apartment because one of Randy's cats was crying and crying and crying, and she didn't know if she was hungry or what the hell was going on.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
As she walked down the hallway, she said she smelled something like old blood coming from the bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It could have been clam chowder vomit. We don't know. Someone could be gutting a deer in the living room. We're not sure. We don't know. So she opened the door to the bedroom and found Randy. She was on her back on the bed, face turned toward her left shoulder, legs spread with her knees straight. So extend it out this time, not like making a diamond shape.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Her right arm extended above her right shoulder while her left arm rested by her side. Does this sound familiar? Yeah. Under her forearm, her left forearm, was the book More Joy of Sex. Oh, the sequel. That's placed right under her. And a plastic dildo is in her mouth. Uh, her brains are leaking on the bed. There's brain matter all over the bed. This is fucking, this is a bad one.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
It's another pose. Medical examiner determined that she died from several multiple, uh, multiple head wounds inflicted with an object such as an iron bar or an aluminum bat. She's also covered with post-mortem stab wounds.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They said she was stabbed and basically covered from her scalp to the bottom of her feet with 231 small knife wounds.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
A rich person's log cabin is what it is. A rich person pretending to be a woodsman over here. You're a real Abe Lincoln. Look at you over there. $2,800,000 for this. It's fucking crazy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Some of them are in patterns on purpose. Yeah, like an art project. They appear to have been inflicted after death, and I guess this is a piquerism, they call it. It's a necrophilic perversion. Piquerism. There. Oh, okay. Yeah. So the forensic evidence reveals the presence of a single pubic hair from a black person at the crime scene. The hair could not be matched anyway to any samples there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Fingerprints, no fingerprints found. They said it looked like somebody had wiped the scene down. They found no fingerprints of anybody. They also found the the the the bat and the killer had wiped down the bat because that was there and clean. So they think it was an aluminum bat that did it and taken every knife in the kitchen. Really? That's all that's missing, all the knives. Just knives?
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Just all the knives. Yep. So they theorize that he used a kitchen knife to violate this poor woman and then took them all so the real weapon couldn't be identified ever. You get all of them. If you take the one you used, you know that's the one. And her favorite amethyst ring was missing. Okay. They said that she had been wearing a ring that was removed during the assault.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And obviously the one cop said, I know that all of us felt that when we found the ring, we'd find the killer. Well, no shit. So the Seattle Times is now running articles titled The East Side Killer.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
This is now a serial killer, referring to the geographic placement, and basically said, since when do lunatics have their field day, a local paper asked. A cartoon analogized that the Bellevue, basically compared Bellevue freak to Jack the Ripper. Wow. One commented, one commenter remarked that Ted Bundy, though he was dead, I'm sure had been resurrected and went to Bellevue.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So people are just it's all that shit. Now, remember John Comfort? Yeah, he's going to get a little more comfortable because they take him off surveillance. He has an alibi for his whereabouts at the time of the murder, but they also doubted that knowing he was under watch, he would have attempted another crime like that. So he's not the serial killer.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They're thinking now, whoever killed one killed them all. So if you couldn't have killed that one, you didn't kill the other two. Now they find out George knew her. On one occasion, Randy's boyfriend drove her home in her truck and George followed in the boyfriend's car.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
so he knows where she lives that's what it means a few weeks later George and some friends drove out to Renton which is a town to help Randy put a new battery in her truck then George rode back to Kirkland with her On a third occasion, Randy was at a bar and George came over to talk. So they know each other. He's been to her house more than once.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
After the murder, George made disparaging remarks about her, stating that she slept around, used men, and that she was a whore. Okay. Now... Where the fuck was George on August 30th and 31st here? Well, he, because it was Labor Day weekend, he and some friends were going to Canada that weekend.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And on August 30th, the night before they left, the group stayed in a motel. George left the hotel dressed in dark pants, white tennis shoes, a blue dark sweatshirt, and a dark cap. He said he had to go to work. Okay, he doesn't even have a job. What are you talking about? He returned at 6 a.m. wearing the same clothes. He didn't have a car, by the way. So he did this on foot.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Randy lived about a mile from the hotel by car, but walking distance was shorter because if you took the direct route. A friend of George's said that she received a ring from Russell several days after Labor Day. It's an amethyst ring. And she wore the ring several times, then gave it to a friend who pawned it.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They later retrieved the ring from the pawn shop, and Randy's sister-in-law identifies the ring as the one that she had given to Randy. Oh, boy. So police brought the ring to the jewelry store where the employee identified it as the one he worked on for Randy in February 1990. And so then there's a guy named a kid named Matt McCauley, who's 16. He's a neighbor of Carol Beef.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Soon after the murder, McCauley told police that he saw a blue Corvette with a black top driving near Carol's house around the time of the murder. He also said he heard a cat scream around that same time. Weird. So they interview him and he described using alcohol and drugs and having drug related hallucinations that whole summer. And he also said that he definitely drank some bourbon that night.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So we don't know how reliable of a witness he is, is what I'm saying. But he's fun. Here we go. He's fun. September 12th, 1990. Robin Oldenburg. She is a young lady packing up for a trip when she notices a strange sound. She said, all of a sudden, I heard a knock on my window. It was a very firm knock. I was really nervous. Everything was going on. But my first thought was, you're being paranoid.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But the noises continued, so she called the police. Oh. When they arrived, they found the screen from her door was missing. Someone was in the process of breaking into her house. And they had a suspect because someone had been driving away as the cops drove up. Oh. They ran the plates and learned that it is George Russell.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And they also learned that he had a warrant out for his arrest for impersonating a police officer. So they chased him down. They said he can have all the excuses he wants while he's here. He's going to jail for that. So she said the woman here, Robin, said she was shocked to learn that this potential assailant was George because she knew George well.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
friends with him familiar she said the first time I met George Russell I thought he was a fun happy-go-lucky great guy but things started to change and I realized there was a dark side to him So George is arrested on outstanding warrants and under investigation here. He said they asked him about the other women and he explained that, yes, he knew Marianne and he knew Randy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And he said he had an alibi. Well, he gave an alibi for his time of the murders. And he also told the police that the night with Marianne with the truck, he used his friend Smith McClain's pickup truck that night. But I didn't kill anybody. I just used the truck.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He denied killing people, but he also refused to hand over a DNA or hair sample. Won't do that, though. Yeah. So they had to continue the investigation because they don't have any physical evidence at this point. After he was questioned by the police, he telephoned one of his roommates and asked her to give the police his copy of Crime Scene Search and Physical Evidence Handbook that he has.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The handbook outlines police procedures and gathering evidence from the scene of a crime and contains chapters on fingerprints and body fluids, but does not contain a chapter on DNA testing. So I don't know if he's fucking with them, like tell them so you know how to investigate a crime scene.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He also admitted having basically every book that was ever written about Ted Bundy, but denied that he was a fan of his or like, you know, thought he was cool or anything. He just said it was just very interesting. Now, Smith McClain is tracked down and he says, yeah, George Russell asked to use my truck that night to take a girl home.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And the next morning when he returned, he claimed that he had to get it clean because a girl he knew threw up clam chowder in it. So he said he remembered saying it smelled like blood or as if something had been gutted in there instead of a person vomiting. So based on this, here's everybody saying he had the he had the truck. They go to do tests on the truck on October 11th, 1990.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They remove the interior of the truck. Now, it has been cleaned in detail during the summer, but the floor mats had not been cleaned. Oh, wow. The seat did. So McLean had removed the floor mats, which were made from house carpet remnants. No. Weather tech, eat your heart out.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
$13 million. $13 million. Your ass, $13 million. You've got to be out of your fucking mind. That's crazy. Things to do here. Let's do this. Kirkland Uncorked. Let's get into it.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Carpet scrap from the fucking guest bedroom here. He had put them in the garage because they smelled so bad. Didn't throw them out. Just put them in the garage. So the upholstery in the truck reacted positively for blood and antigens that matched the blood and H.O. and A. antigens, which matched the H.O. and A. antigens in the vaginal swab taking taken at Marianne Polrick's autopsy.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Both antigens could have been contributed by her herself because she was a type A secretor. George was type O, although he could have been the source of the HO antigens, he could not have contributed the A antigens. The state also sent the vaginal swab and upholstery samplings for DNA testing.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Poor quality of the samples, but they did conduct a PCR test, which is kind of like the most basic DNA test they can do. That's like the first one that they do just to see if you're even in the ballpark.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And then if certain things match up, then you go to more specific DNA. This is one of those, you know, yeah, one in 5,000 people type of thing or whatever, one in 10, whatever the number is at that particular thing. But it's not the one in 8 billion type of shit.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So the PCR test results indicated that neither George nor Smith McClain could have been the source of the blood in the truck, but that Marianne could have been. The testing also revealed that only George of all the comparison samples could have been the donor of the sperm. Only George.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
In addition to the sperm and blood and the one hair from a black person consistent with Russell's was found in the debris on the sheet in which her body was wrapped, by the way. Five fibers in the pubic combings were consistent with the truck carpet, as was one fiber from the sheet debris. Another fiber in the sheet debris was consistent with the truck's upholstery. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They also were able to track down her ring, like we said. They got that. Apparently it was discovered that in a pawn shop in Canada here, they were able to get the ring back, identify it, and really tie him to the murder. So they charged George with murdering Mary Ann, Carol, and Randy Levine. All three of them. Levine. All three of them. He wants all of his statements tossed in pretrial.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
He said the police failed to read him his Miranda rights prior to questioning. He sought to have them suppress not only that statement, but also fruit of that statement. Him saying he was in the truck led to the truck search, which he wants that out, too, because that's part of it. They got that from a statement here. Now, they...
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The trial court concludes that the questionings occurred in a custodial setting, requiring police to read the Miranda warnings. But due to conflicting testimony, the court found the state had failed to prove by a preponderance that Russell had been advised of his rights. So the state was not permitted to use his statement in the case.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The court found, however, that his statement was voluntarily given, that his free will was not overborne, noting that the atmosphere in the interview room was relaxed and friendly. Evidence also indicated that Russell had been Mirandized on previous occasions, including one occasion four months before the questioning. Well, you have to do it every time. You can't.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Where wine meets street fair fun. Fuck yeah, where drinking in the streets happens. That's what that is.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They do it when they like they'll leave the room for an hour. They'll remirandize somebody like just for shits and giggles here. They said he knew his right to legal counsel was also clear since he eventually terminated the questioning by asking to speak to an attorney.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Before his statement was voluntarily given in a non-coercive atmosphere, the trial court ruled that the evidence derived from his unmirandized statements would be admissible now.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So before it got contentious, the court excludes the defense evidence of similar attacks. And I say evidence with quotes around it. They want to put two other assaults into the mix here that occurred in September of 1990.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
And they state that the incidents were similar to Carol B. than Randy Levine because the female victims lived on the ground floor of an apartment building and both received head injuries inflicted by a heavy object. But they said there's absolutely no no connection. They said the first assault occurred early in the morning.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The victim had locked herself out of her apartment building and was banging on her door when a man approached offering his help. They walked around to the back of the building to see if she could climb in a window and he struck her on the head with what appeared to be a rock. She screamed and he fled. There's no posing. There's no anything. So nothing there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Second assault happened when a victim was surprised a burglar in her home. The burglar struck her once in the eye, then fled with money. He had an alibi because he was in custody, but they said there's no similarities here at all.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Exactly. Yeah, they were trying to do that. They also said he they said they want to get in. The court refuses to admit evidence that two men, George Grums and Brett Carlson, may have murdered Marianne and Randy. George Grums was considered a suspect in a rape murder case where the body was left in a parking lot.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The victim in that case was a black woman with a history of prostitution and a heroin habit. She had been seen driving with grums, although her body was left in a parking lot, fully clothed and not posed. So nothing like this is what they're saying here. So anyway, also there's condoms. He wants to have exclude the unused condoms found in his belongings.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
The state asserted that the condoms were relevant to rebut an argument that Carol Beath and Andrea Levine had been killed by someone other than Mary Ann's killer because semen was found at the scene of Mary Ann's murder and not at the other two murders. So the state intended to argue that the absence of semen in the bodies of Levine and Bede could be attributed to the use of condoms.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, they said the court indicated here they concluded the condoms are out. And then the next day they came back and said, change my mind. Condoms are in. The condoms are in. It's fucking wild. So the trial comes up here. DNA, I could do a four-hour show on the fight over the DNA, and I'm not even going to get into it. I'm not going to get into it. Not going to get into it.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
$13 million for a house there. It's expensive.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Prosecution succeeds in admitting into evidence the controversial DNA tests for the hair, semen, and bloodstains, the PCR tests. But winning a conviction here is going to rest on more than this, I think, here. The Levine evidence, they say George knew Levine, knew where she lived. On the morning of the murder, he was staying at a motel that was less than a 15 minute walk from her residence.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Early in the morning, he left the motel at approximately 5 a.m. An intruder was seen leaving her residence. The intruder, like George, wore dark clothing. An eyewitness saw something white about two thirds as wide as the person superimposed against the chest or abdomen. And he was wearing a dark blue sweatshirt with a white logo on the front.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
After Randy's murder, George told some of her friends that he was a whore. She was a whore who'd been sleeping with a friend of his and had used men. Hair found on her body was similar to his. And finally, it was discovered that a distinctive ring obviously was given away. So there's that. That's that's a lot right there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, I know. You would think so. But I know it's great. It's what's wild about it. Yeah. You would imagine it would be like. Yeah. This is not, you know.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Also, the crime scene book, they argue that the handbook was relevant because it showed knowledge of the techniques that were apparently used by these killers. The trial court initially ruled it inadmissible and then changed its mind again. This judge is real flighty with shit.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
They get Matt McCauley, the 16 year old there, to try to support the theory that Carol was killed by a boyfriend, Mike Sewell. He identified a photograph of Mike Sewell's white topped Corvette as possibly being the car he saw.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
On cross-examination, he denied drinking any bourbon that night, and then the state reminded him of his statements in which he admitted consuming a shitload of bourbon that night. He then admitted drinking some bourbon that night, but denied it was enough to affect his system. And he also said he's been having hallucinations all summer. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
So the state repeatedly questioned him on discrepancies in earlier statements because they said it was a different color top. Now he's saying it's a white top Corvette.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Before he said it was blue. It was black. Yeah. The mind hunters are here.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
John Douglas and Robert Keppel both testify at this trial.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Yeah, this is big shit. They absolutely do. They have all of this. They talk about the posing. They talk about the hits and the VICAP computer programs that they've built all these profiles and shit up. These programs use forms filled out by local law enforcement officials listing the various characteristics of homicides, and they enter it all in there.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Now, the defense pursues the issue of the similarities and differences among the three murderers, And the court allows Keppel to testify that his opinion of all the murders that they were committed by the same person. He said that all were killed within a short period of time of contact with the offender.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
Each crime involved the sexual insertion of a foreign object that the offender needed to display these victims and ensure their discovery. And all of that. They said that the fury that was expended at the crime scenes and the obvious lengths he went to to show whomever found his victims bodies, the contempt he felt for those women.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
But speak of kind of deep residing cauldron of anger that's way beyond normality.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
With six kids traveling behind them, just standing in the TV section while their wife shops for fucking clothes that are, for some reason, in the middle of the store next to dry goods. I don't know why.
Small Town Murder
#583 - Charming Serial Killer - Kirkland, Washington
I guess so. Absolutely. They call him a violent necrophile and a sadistic necrophile. And they said that because they were what he told them, basically, he's saying that these women needed to suffer. Pleasure came when he was able to deliver it with the wax of a baseball bat or an iron rod or whatever he used to smash their skulls.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Get your tickets for live shows. 2025 live shows are live and available. Here we go. Let's go down the list. February 7th in Pittsburgh. Yes. Get those tickets right now. It's a big fucking theater.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Not to put pressure on you, but basically we look at things and we look at how things sell. And if that's a half-empty building, we ain't coming back to Pittsburgh. So if you want us there, fucking buy tickets. The next night in Columbus, February 8th. May 16th in St. Louis, the Pageant. Beautiful theater there. May 17th in Chicago at the Riviera. Oh, baby, bring me home. I love it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Not that I'm from Chicago, but I like Chicago. It's great. September 6th, we are in San Diego at the Observatory. September 7th at the Irvine Improv in Irvine, California. September 19th, we are... Oh, I can't give that one out yet. That's coming out soon. That's our mystery one. You'll understand exactly why when you hear where it is and when our tickets went on sale here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
A lot of the stats say upscale suburb.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Be prepared here. It's driving distance to Grand Rapids, which is the next day. Grand Rapids, Michigan. People seem super excited about that. October 17th, Portland. Back in Portland at the new mark. Can't wait for that. The 18th, we are in Seattle, which is fun. That is Seattle at the Moore, which is a beautiful fucking theater. It's huge, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's where you go see cool, fancy people, and we're going to be part of that. Then on December 12th, we'll be in Philadelphia, back at the Fillmore. Love that place. And then December 13th, ending it all out in Washington, D.C., for one there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
By the way, those are all Friday, Saturday shows, except for the Irvine Improv, which is on a Sunday, because comedy clubs are twats, and they want you to fucking do two shows in the night.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Not a lot of people single with children, married with children here. Got a job. You work in Rochester. You drive here. You fucking mow the lawn on Saturday afternoon. I feel like it's that kind of town. Race of this town here, 76.3% white, 5.9% black, 10.8% Asian.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So there you go. You got us on a Sunday. Sorry about that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I just that's exactly what it is. We had the exact conversation we had with our agents about two shows. You just can't do it. It's all fucked up. So thank you so much for that. And thank you for buying tickets. Shut up and give me murder dot com. Get them quick because they go fast, especially the good ones. They go real fast. So get those tickets and come hang out with us.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
A lot of beautiful places, beautiful venues this year. Also, in addition to shut up and give me murder dot com, head over to Patreon dot com slash crime in sports. Get all your bonus materials. Holy shit. There's so much anybody. Five dollars a month or above. You get the whole back catalog. New shit all the time. Hundreds of episodes you've never heard before. Bonus stuff.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
New ones every other week, including this week. We're obviously one crime in sports, one small town murder. You get it all, baby. For Crime and Sports this week, we are going to talk about personal ads again. Back by popular demand. Let's hear what people were looking for back in the newspaper days. When you just be like, I'm going to find a person. Let me put an ad in the paper.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about the West Memphis Three, and we'll do a few episodes of these that will spread out over time with them, and we'll break it into sections. This is going to be, how the fuck did this even happen? What'd you do? We're going to talk about that. What happened?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
How did this lead to this point of even having to make a goddamn documentary, never mind three of them?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I didn't even know we had cake.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Didn't even know there was cake, and you've ruined it, right?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So we'll talk all about that and we'll talk about more. Definitely. That's patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is going to happen in one second here. Also, you definitely want to follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. Find us. Hang out with us. Keep coming back for more and more.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That said, Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world who would never, ever hire a hack pathologist to frame us for murder. Jimmy, hit me with the list right fucking now.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She's got a nice sack on her.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
which is that right i had no idea western new york had a lot of asian people had literally no clue twice as many asians as black people which is a weird thing it's very strange i mean don't get me wrong have as many asians as you like you're loud i'm not i'm not telling you a you know a quota on your asians that you have to have it's fine but that's what seems like a lot 4.1% Hispanic here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Are any of these people holding space, though, Jimmy?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I'm so glad you said that, by the way. In real life, Jimmy says shit like that all the time. On the show, he lets it slide off him. In real life, he's like, I will fucking kick that person. And that's why I hang out with him. He'd come on the show, and I sound like a psychopath. And he's like, yeah, that's crazy, man. I'm like, where the fuck are you?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
We talk about it all the time. Well, this is our private conversations. Could you believe this fucking asshole? Those are every conversation we have.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Let's see. Religion, 46.5% of the people here are religious, which is a little bit lower than the national average, but still pretty high. And the most of anybody is Catholic. Shocker. Oh. As we know, Catholics are the Baptists of the North, so that we do know. 1.4% Jewish. Oh, my goodness.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
What do you put in your Coggin?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Thank you so much, everybody. You're unbelievable. You fantastic, wonderful fucking bastards. We love you so much. We can't wait to come out and see everybody this year. And thank you for being patrons and thank you for enjoying the crazy content we put out on there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Fuck yeah. We appreciate everything you do for us. Thank you so much. And if you want to follow us on social media, very easy to do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Drop down menu. It has all that shit. Get in there. Keep hanging out with us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, my goodness. We get to sing the song.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Here we go. Let's do Hava Nagila. Hava Nagila. Hava Nagila. I don't know the words. Hey. Hey. All right.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's what matters. That's mainly it. You can't just say, I'm going to cut that out for a month and then go back. Can't do it. That's not what it is.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
We got that. Let's see here. Median household income here is $75,852 a year, which is just above the national average. That's pretty good, yeah. Yeah, it's not bad. It's kind of a wealthier suburb. Nice houses, big yards, that sort of thing. It's a nice area. Median home cost here, or cost of living, we should say, $100,000 is regular average. Here it's $88,000. So a little bit lower housing here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Median home costs $289,900. That's pretty good. Not bad for a nice upscale suburb here. And maybe we've convinced you that the only place you can lay your head is Brighton, New York. And if we have, we've convinced you, we have for you the Brighton, New York Real Estate Report. The average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $1,380, which is just above the national average.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So I'm glad it's helping you. That's great. And it really does. I like the psychology and biology-based approach here. Noom weight uses psychology. That's why they say losing weight starts with your brain, but it also takes into account your body. Unique biological factors, Jimmy. All of your multitude flora and fauna that goes on inside of you there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But the house is decently affordable. Here is house number one. This is kind of the average house that we'll give you here. This is a four-bedroom, three-bath, 1,780-square-foot house. Decent family house. You know what I mean? Couple of kids. It's nothing special inside. It's kind of was clearly completely redone in like 2009. You could tell by the countertops, things like that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Not a bad house. $289,999. So that's kind of what your average house is, though, in terms of the price. House number two is a four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,812-square-foot house. And it actually is very similar to the house that's going to be in our story this week. It looks similar. You can tell it's in the similar type of neighborhood. Nice house. Pretty decent. It is $775,000 for that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, four-bedroom, three-bath, 2,812 square feet. And there's no acreage. It's like, you know, less than a half acre, but a decent-sized yard. A little pricey, I would say. Then house number three, four-bedroom, four-bath, 3,247 square feet. T-bowl for each and every b-hole. And this house, it's on 1.6 acres. It's the weirdest-looking fucking house that's ever been in New York. It's a...
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It looks like a douchebag Hollywood producer in 1989 built it. Oh, love it. It's got like those square, like you can't see through the glass things.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, this is not a nice house at all. It's real weird looking. I mean, it's a nice house for somebody. Somebody. For a complete tool, it's a nice house. If anyone saw this and went, oh, that's awesome, you'd go, that's a douchebag right there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
This house is the equivalent of an Ed Hardy shirt and a pair of white Oakleys. That's what this house is. It's fucking stupid. Real annoying looking house. Allison, who does our research here, she had a little two cents to add to this. She says, Zillow calls this a contemporary masterpiece. I call it an ugly piece of shit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
There you go. That's how it works. And I agree with her. Ugly piece of shit here. That's why we like Allison. This is $1,345,000 for this monstrosity. It's weird, too. Like, it's got thin, weird hallways. It's a real weird house. I would definitely not pay that money.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
for that house things to do here oh boy here it is everybody the rochester erotic arts festival oh yeah yes where is it do you think what's the most erotic place you can think of
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You're close. It's the Holiday Inn in Auburn, New York. That's where it's at.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I bet that continental breakfast is hot.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Tiny boxes of Froot Loops and miniature yogurts. Hot. Sexy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. They say that the schedule includes hot, edgy, and beautiful erotic art. Edgy. Edgy. Performances ranging from classy aerial dance to bawdy burlesque. Unique shopping for clothing, jewelry, and sex toys, of course. You've got to have those.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology-based approach. Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com. Noom.com. N-O-O-M-O-M. dot com here. Based on 3.5 year study of actively engaged Noom users with minimum starting BMI of 25, individual results may vary. Visit our website for more information.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Obviously. It's a sex festival. How do you not have that? Classes in art, dance, and sex ed for adventurous adults. Okay. Okay, and the pictures of this, it looks like it's not who you're picturing doing this. You're picturing this as a very sexy thing. This is like a lot of people, a lot of mushy people in their 40s and 50s teaching each other how to use whips and shit, which is fine.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But it looks about as erotic as a Holiday Inn in Auburn, New York. That's the difference. It's... A little weird, but it does have maybe my favorite thing and a job that, goddammit, I wish I could do because I would do it in a fucking heartbeat.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Sign language interpreters available all weekend.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
What a great job that is. I'd love to mime fucking on your clit like that and then in there, you know, just miming the whole thing would be fan-fucking-tastic.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I need to be there for that. Some of the classes they have subvert the dominant paradigm. Alternative Models for Dominant Submissive Relationships. And it says, Owners and Slaves, Parents and Offspring, Dubs, Subs, and Doms. I don't like the opening right there. Owners and Slaves, Parents and Offspring? The fuck does that mean?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Weirdo sex people, come on in. It's fine to be a weirdo sex people.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Do you like to fuck in a way that you're uncomfortable telling other people about? Here you go. Would your work people frown upon your sex life? Well, this is for you then. So, yeah, it says in a world that celebrates the erotic imagination, it's funny how limited our relationship models tend to be. So there's that. Also, have a cookie. Using rewards in your BDSM relationship.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I think that is self-explanatory. You know, you do the right thing, you get a cookie, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Which is what I want when I'm fucking, is cookies. And then, for your own good, using punishment in your BDSM relationships.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Well, they say the number one fantasy of BDSM kink is someone getting punished, whether in pure fantasy or as some sort of a structured relationship. But many get it so wrong. Explore the reasons for and effective methods of punishment to enhance and strengthen a relationship based upon authority and obedience. Holy shit. Next up, seducing the butt.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I really don't have to tell you much about that. That is super self-explanatory.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The description, just a lot of mention of lube in the description. Lots of lube mention. It will be taught by Luna Matadas. That's her name. Ain't no passing phase. Then there's skills for G-spot and squirting joy. I think that's pretty explanatory. It's pretty self-explanatory. And there's social gatherings as well. Of course. You got to take this newly learned information.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
This newly learned information and spread it around to the community. Okay, so there's the Furries Mixer. That's one. Whether you have a fur suit or not, or just love furries, you're welcome to come hang out and make some new friendships. They missed a, they could have said fur ships right there, and they missed it. They blew it. You blew it, guys.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And then if you're really into that, there's a Pet Play Mixer.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. Are you interested in active or active in pet play? This is an opportunity to meet other pets and pet owners, ask questions, dress as a pet, and cavort with ponies, puppies, kitties, and more.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And whatever other dumb fucking costumes these idiots put on them. Then there's a Littles Social and Craft Hour. Does that mean children? Are there children here? Please tell me that there's an age restriction on this.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No, this is for baby people.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. Join your Littles friends and their middles, mommies, daddies and caregivers for fun activities, snacks and networking. If you'd like to know more about the Littles lifestyle, you're welcome to join in the fun. You can wear your baby or kids clothes or whatever you're comfortable in. And it says bottoms must be covered. No dirty diapers allowed.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You have to tell people, please don't shit yourself in public. The fact that you have to tell them that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Then they close it out with Sibian rides.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Which if you don't know what that is, it's a fuck machine. How are you going to follow that? Yeah. Yeah, it's a fuck machine. You can't follow. That's a closer right there. That's a headliner.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Don't worry. Oh, my God. There's also a dungeon orientation, a Swingers 101, and then follow it all up with a breakfast buffet with omelet station because that's what I want after all this.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Make me a nice Denver omelet so once I've watched people in baby clothes fuck each other.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
it's only 16 bucks for the for the omelet station crime rate in this town what we're interested in here property crime just below the national average so um not too far below but a little bit and then violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault is about one-third of the national average so very low yeah very low murder rate here that said let's talk about murder what do you say everybody
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Let's do it. Let's talk about some people first off here. Let's talk about James Krasneck Jr. Sure. All right. James Krasneck Jr. is born in 1951. He grew up in the small town of Mount Clemens, Michigan.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I think it's outside of Detroit, but like suburban Detroit. Yeah. His family owned a carpet store. That's that was. Yeah. Krause neck carpets. Jesus. You can just smell it in there. Yeah. Like a 60s carpet store.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Flammable carpeting hasn't been made fire retardant yet.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, for like a year and a half.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Unless you really smoke a lot. Back then they'd go, I suggest smoking like two, three packs of cigarettes a day in here. It'll kill that carpet smell in a while. Don't worry about it. So he meets a young lady named Kathleen. Kathy is what she goes by Schlosser. Now she's born in 1952. They're like in the same class in school. So they meet in school and they're just friends in high school.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They're not they're not going out or anything like that. But later on, they will. Now, she is born to her parents, Mr. and Mrs. Robert Schlosser. She's the second oldest of six children. So I don't even know what the identity would be there. You're not a middle kid. You're not one of the younger ones. You're not the oldest.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're, like, back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Kind of stuck in the middle there. Her father was a truck driver, and then he ran a gravel business named Schlosser Trucking.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
This week in Brighton, New York, a perplexing mystery unfolds after a horrifying axe murder is discovered in a quiet suburban home, leaving police suspicious of the spouse, even though there's a career criminal down the street. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Robert sounds like a tough guy. He's got very hard hands. Yeah, and I feel like if you run a gravel business, your voice is like this all the time, no matter what.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Gravelly, yeah. I feel like you could have a perfectly fine speaking voice and everything, a singing voice, and if you bought a gravel company, as soon as the paperwork went through, you'd be like, hello, Petrogallo and Wisman Gravel. It'd be a fucking disaster.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, that's how you're making them yourself, pumping them out. Now, her mom would make all sorts of Polish food, and that's a big deal. Like, Kathy, all the friends from her neighborhood would be over. Her yard was like the spot where they all played and played soccer and hung out and shit. So the mom would make Polish treats for the kids here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Come on over and have things with kraut on it. Come get a pierogi is what that is. That's really the only, outside of like Polish sausage or whatever, like the only thing that I know is Polish is a pierogi.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So is German shit. Where do you think sauerkraut came from?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, yeah. Brats, I love a brat, but sometimes they're a little too plain tasting for me. There's not enough like- Ginger or whatever the fuck's in it. I don't know what the fuck it is. I don't know that either. It just tastes like meat they've taken the flavor out of sometimes, so you have to load it up with mustard and all that. I'd rather throw a fucking hot Italian sausage in a bun.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But it's okay. I don't mind it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I'm going to throw some mustard on there. Otherwise, it's just pierogies, which are basically Polish ravioli. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about the safest sponsor ever, Simply Safe. Absolutely. These people will keep you safe. It's amazing. You know that every 26 seconds, a burglary takes place in the United States, according to the FBI.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That means that by the time this podcast is over, dozens and dozens of homes will have been stormed. Targeted, ransacked, God knows what happens here. So protect your home before it's too late with SimpliSafe. Proactive security system. SimpliSafe helps stop threats before they even have a chance to break in. Named best home security system by U.S. News & World Report five years in a row.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And by us for about the last eight years as well. If you trust us... Believe me, you want SimpliSafe. So visit SimpliSafe.com slash small to claim 50% off a new system with professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's SimpliSafe.com slash small. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our stylish friends at Quince. That's right. Let's go elevate your styles, people. Get it going. Look good out there. And you can do it now without breaking your wallet, without breaking the bank, because...
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
With Quince, you can get high-end, versatile pieces at prices we can all actually afford, which is very nice. You want to get good stuff that lasts and it's good, and they have quality stuff that's very affordable. And you can do like we did, upgrading our stuff here while still being a very reasonable price.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. It's all quality stuff. You're going to love it. Trust us. It looks good. And I've got the leather jacket. It's a very high-quality item. Real nice, soft leather. Jimmy's got his linen pants he's rocking.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Come on. Be like us. Be fashionable. Get in there with Quince. Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com slash smalltownmurder for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash smalltownmurder to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She is very energetic, smart, engaged. She's that type of kid. Her parents are very impressed with her. Her father said she bought new bicycles for her and her older brother when she was about seven years old. And I guess he was showing the brother how to do it. And Kathy just got on her bike and started fucking riding away. So she didn't even want instructions. She's that kind of kid.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Just didn't do it. Yeah. They had a half acre property, which is kind of seems like what most of the properties are here, about a half acre. And that was, like I said, the gathering place for the kids. They played soccer. Robert Schlosser said they broke the windows all the damn time playing soccer. She said they were breaking it all the time. The front window and the basement window.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Well, I mean, I guess that's kids are being kids are playing soccer.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They got fixed. Yeah, trucking gravel does well, I guess, apparently. That's crazy because it's funny because I wouldn't be mad at my kid for breaking a window for playing ball. He's fucking off or doing something but playing ball. But when I was a kid, I broke a window, and my grandmother beat me with a broom handle for it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. This one is pretty damn wild, I'll say, right off the bat. Can't wait to get to that. A real perplexing mess of a case here. We'll get to all that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Grandma didn't know about grounding. She only knew about beating. They don't have grounding in Italy, apparently. They just beat you until you're too sore to go anywhere. And that's grounded, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I was going to say, that's the other thing. Where she grew up and when she grew up, it was basically like being Amish. Like my old joke about, it's got to be hard to be an Amish parent because there's nothing to take away. That was the premise of a joke, and that's exactly what it is. Yeah, what are you going to take away? Chores? What do you got? Nothing to take from these people.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So Kathy's Kathy's such a nice person to her friend talks about how this is the friend's 10 year old sister was killed by a drunk driver in 1969. That's brutal. So shortly after this, the girl's father suffered a massive stroke that left him paralyzed on one side of his body.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So Kathy was so nice when she would come home from college, she would go over to visit this friend's father to help him out for a few hours a day because she's just a nice girl. She's very nice.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No, that place is fucked, man. That place is a disaster. Her friend said she was everybody's friend. That's the way she was, Kathy. So they met each other, Kathy and Jim, meet each other in high school, but they don't start dating until they're both in the same college.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Like, oh, you again. I remember you from my math class.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I already know you, so it's easy. Western Michigan University is where they went. They both lived in the Mount Clemens area, which, by the way, is about 30 miles northeast of Detroit, but in high school didn't know each other very well, hook up in college later. James, also very active.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
From his high school yearbook here, I have his activities, swimming, booster club, German club, key club, golf, council, cadet, and teacher assistant. He does.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's a lot of shit. I did nothing in high school outside of go to class the minimal amount of time so they won't call your fucking parents and get you in trouble. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's still like I would have had to know what room to go to.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Just making excuses to walk around and look at girls at that point when you're in high school.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. So they went to Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo. And basically, Jim would sometimes drive her to and from campus on breaks because they're from the same town. And that's how they ended up getting together. So they started dating. You know, you get about a half hour ride, a little time to talk, probably more one-on-one time than you get with most people in college.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
First of all, though, absolutely head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Get your tickets. Tickets for live shows are live right now for 2025. Some places we've never been before, like Grand Rapids. We have one more that we've never been to that we're announcing here in a couple of weeks. So there's that. We're all over the place. Irvine, San Diego, Portland, Seattle.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So one of the first times after they started going out, Jim tried to come over to the house. Kathy invited him over, wanted to introduce him to the parents.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Serious about him, Robert, the gravel man, said, quote, I threw him out.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Didn't go well. Robert said, he came barefooted, and I told him to go home and get a pair of shoes on. You got to understand when this is. It's 1969. So we're talking Woodstock and like, I mean, literally this is the time when kids walked around with no fucking shoes on all the time and shit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
None of that. He didn't even want you to have fucking sneakers on. They wanted you to have wingtips on. Never mind no shoes. Sneakers were considered. You fucking loser.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
What's wrong with you? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Put on a pair of pants, pull it up to your sternum, and go out and do something. What's wrong with you?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You lazy bastard. So, yeah, so at the time, and Robert's not like a hippie type. I think he's just fitting in, basically. Probably, yeah. He'll become an economist later on. He's very much like kind of a nerdy guy. He's not really. None of those clubs said hippie to you, did it?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I didn't see a macrame class in there or anything. Nothing. So Krauseneck learned his lesson and then came over dressed properly. It was like, oh, you don't fuck around with Robert Schlosser here. So then they said after that, once he came back with shoes on, then the family saw him as a fine young man, clean cut and quiet and kind to Kathy. So they were OK with him after that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Just needed to have some shoes on. That's all.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's a big deal, man. So back then, now, May 3rd, 1974, they're going to get married. So they're both about 22 at this point. This is right after college. They probably waited until they graduated college, which was kind of the thing to do back then and how it went.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Unless you don't go to college or like sometimes the woman would drop out to be in a family, whatever the fuck it was. But that was the way they did it back in the day. But yeah, this is kids would meet in college. They'd wait till they graduate. Then they'd get married. That was kind of a what smart kids quote unquote did back then. So they get married.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They moved to Colorado after they get married.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. They go to Fort Collins, Colorado, where Jim attended graduate school at Colorado State University and And Kathy worked as an orthopedic therapist.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Because he's got to get like a master's degree because he wants to be an economist and have a good job like that. April 15th, 1978, a baby is born. Here we go. Look at this. They have a baby girl named Sarah here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Not bad. So from 79 to 81, Jim teaches at Lynchburg College. Kentucky?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Lynchburg, I think that's Kentucky. Virginia, actually. Virginia.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Lynchburg, Virginia, yes. They moved to Lynchburg, Virginia so he can teach there where he teaches economics at Lynchburg College.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So that's what he's doing here. And I guess if you're going to get like a master's in economy, I guess that's what you would do if you don't work for a company. So they moved to Lynchburg in 1979 from Colorado. They lived on Rittenhouse Street there. And there this is Kathy's sister, Annette, lived with them for about a year at the time. I don't know why, but what she was doing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But she said this is the sister said that Kathy was just the best person in the world, which I mean, it's her sister. What's she going to say to say? She's a fucking filthy, skanky hooah. What are you going to say about it?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, Irvine down there. We got Philly, D.C., Pittsburgh, Columbus.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She's a bitch with a bad. Never out of the bathroom. Bad digestive system. Bad.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's her own bathroom. Nobody even goes in there. They're like, oh, that's Kathy's. You don't want to go in there. Forget about it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Don't let it out. Don't let the stink out. It rolls. You got weather stripping all on the top and bottom. Make sure it doesn't get out. So that's what it was. Her sister also. I'm sorry. This is her boss at the who is the director of the Central Virginia Mental Health Service where where she worked is where Kathy worked.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
This woman said that Kathy knew so much about babies, pediatrics and occupational therapy. She was so talented. And that's the thing. Wherever Kathy works, she's very popular. She's very, you know, and also thought to be very competent and popular socially. And people like her. She's very magnetic. So she worked for Project Daniel from the fall of 79 until the spring of 1980.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
We're excited for it. There's another couple I'm forgetting, but they're in there. Chicago.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now, the project officials wanted her to come back and work for them again. But they said that they were never able to contact her after she left Project Daniel. The director said, I was concerned about her. Couldn't get a hold of her. Meanwhile, it's because they moved.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. So when she quit her job with Project Daniel, she did it because she said she wanted to spend more time with her daughter. And the woman said she kept saying her child was young and she didn't want to go into full-time work. Yet they kept calling her and bothering her. She told you she didn't want to do it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But if she says my kid is a baby and I want to spend time with my baby, you know, you only get that one period. Leave her the fuck alone. Let her go. Deal with your own bullshit. Jesus Christ, man. So now a friend of hers, of Kathy's, received a letter from her at one point and said she was very aware, really bright. She was a feminist. She believed strongly in raising her daughter.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She talked a lot about having more children. So that's what she wanted to do. That's where she wanted to focus her energy on. Her friend described her as happily married. She said they made every decision they ever made together. They got along well. She was very outgoing, very sociable. And he's not bad either. He's not like a drag either. He's a decent guy. He's got some shoes.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Got to go get your tickets right now.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Is that right? She's described as having long blonde hair, being 5'4", and weighing 100 pounds. Her friend said she was beautiful at the time. So she said she's very interested in life. She, quote, dabbled in everything. They did all sorts of shit. This is in the 70s. They did yoga together, which in the 70s,
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
the only there was only a few people doing yoga who weren't in a cult in the 70s there was like cults that did yoga and that was it there were very few like normal just classes it was considered really out there and some of the still is pretty fucking weird but it's weird but i mean now it's as mainstream as it gets now it's every suburban mom gets their stupid mat and goes and does it every clothing company makes a line that's just for yoga
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Let's go, even if it's not close to you. It's worth a drive.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Just for yoga. Yeah, that's considered normal and healthy now. So at the time, considered aberrant behavior. So September of 81, this is when they thought to themselves that this job that Jim has here teaching just doesn't pay well enough. I don't know what Lynchburg College pays their junior professors, but probably not a lot. He didn't look at the pay scale before he started?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Well, I think he just wanted a job and get his foot in the door somewhere.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, Pittsburgh, you're up first, so do that. It's Super Bowl weekend. Who cares? It's on a Friday.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I mean, back then, he couldn't Google it. All he could do was look for people who needed people, whatever. I don't even know what publications you'd look in to find a teaching job across the country. Who knows?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I don't know. Or maybe it's somebody that knew him said, I'm going to Lynchburg. They're looking for an economy professor. I don't know how it worked. But either way, he said, I got to move to the corporate world and make some dough here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I got a baby. I got my wife. I got to make some money for us here. So in 1981, he answered an ad in the Wall Street Journal for a job. He's sitting in Virginia getting the Wall Street Journal, probably a day late, probably getting tomorrow's.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's crazy. That's how you did it, Beck. There was no other choice. So he ends up getting a job at Kodak, which was headquartered in Rochester at the time. They buy a house on Del Rio Drive for $92,000 in 1981. That's big money. Yeah, that's an expensive house now. So that's a big deal. $400,000 then probably? Yeah, probably even a little more.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You'll be fine for the game Sunday.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That house, as we'll talk about now, we'll see what it's worth now later on, but it's a decent house here. So at this point, Jim, Kathy, and three-year-old Sarah all move to Brighton, which is nice upscale.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He's starting his new job as an economist for Kodak. They're like, this is it. Now we start our life. You know what I mean? So Krasinec left the college to work for Eastman Kodak, and she said that somebody from the college who ran his department said he was well-liked by everyone, an extremely nice person, very even-tempered. I took a class from him. He was an excellent professor. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's right. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com is where you get all of that. Also, check out Crime and Sports and Your Stupid Opinions, our other two shows. And if that's not enough, go to Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all the bonus material. And there's a ton of it. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get a gigantic back catalog of stuff you've never heard before.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Not bad here. The area they moved to in Brighton, their street is a very nice. All the lawns are manicured. It's very, very nice upscale street. Definitely not lower middle class or anything like that. It's nice. Now, when they first get there, Kathy's pretty homesick.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
For Michigan, actually, not even for Virginia, for Michigan, because they moved to Colorado, then Virginia, now here. She just wants to be back in Michigan. She talks about her family back in Michigan, her friends back in Michigan. What if we had all this in this nice house just in Michigan? That'd be so much better, basically. With the family, they did stuff together. They tried to get into it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The Krasenek couple, they would take walks together. They would bicycle with the kid. They played tennis and racquetball together. It's a very 80s couple playing racquetball. It sounds like it's right out of an 80s movie, doesn't it? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And that's called handball. That's not even racquetball.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's just a little box with a ball flying around at 300 miles an hour.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, yeah, especially in Phoenix. So the friend of hers, though, said Kathy was somewhat disillusioned with Rochester. She said, I think Kathy's disillusionment could be related to the fact that they moved in the fall and resided here throughout the winter. And due to the cold weather, that could account for some disenchantment. Yeah, that's a Rochester has long winters.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They're fucking long and they're brutal. And if you move there in October, you are in for it, man. You're not going to see the sun again till April. And it's brutal.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, way far east. That's like three, four hours east.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's long and it's brutal. So that would make sense where you'd be like, Jesus Christ, this is rough. So February 16th, 1982, they've lived there less than a year. He's working at his job. Everything seems fine. The Kodak decides that, I don't know what made them prompted this, but they decide they're going to do a background check on all their employees just to see.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Let's make sure we don't have any fucking weirdos on our staff here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No, we'll do it now. They do a full background check, and they discover that Jim Krausenak did not complete his Ph.D. from Colorado State University. Oh, no. He is one paper shy of completing his Ph.D. Really? Absolutely. So they find that out. Now, they don't bring him in and fire him or anything like that. They probably tell him, get that paper done.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Hundreds of episodes of bonus stuff. Then you get new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder, and you get them all, baby.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And you're fine because, you know, he comes home and goes to work the next day. It's like nothing happened. So it's not like I said, they don't threaten him. They don't tell him, you know, if you don't have it by this date, you're fired. It's none of that. They're just like, well, you know, we found that you need to have a Ph.D. for this job. So go finish it up. That was that. Fine.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So that's the 16th. Now, February 18th, 1982, a couple days later, everything seems to be going fine. Not like he's been, like I said, hasn't been fired or anything like that. The Krausenecks eat dinner at around 6.30 p.m. Okay. Meatloaf for James and Sarah. They have meatloaf. Three, four, four.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Definitely meatloaf for them. And Kathy had egg salad on lettuce. There's a bowl of farts right there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's going to be gross. But that's like diet food back then. Egg salad on lettuce. Yeah, that's what people would eat if they were on a diet. Then they drove to the bank in the car, the lone family car. And they're going to own there to deposit Jim's checks. He's got some checks to deposit. Yeah. Whole family loads up in the, it's February and it's cold as shit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's right. This week for crime and sports, we're doing back to personal ads. Oh, it's been a while. Fantastic. Can't wait for some more old timey personal ads. Those are a lot of fun. Always a popular. Always a hoot. And then for small town murder, we're going to do something very cool and weird. We're going to talk about the West Memphis three, which people have been waiting for.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, I don't know why. You'd think it'd be like, yeah, I'm going to go to the bank. I'll be back in a minute. Let's not load the kid up in the park in the snowsuit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, it's weird, but they all go together. Maybe they want to spend time together. I don't know. So after a stop at a department and a drugstore, then they go to a nearby liquor store and purchase, quote, an alcoholic beverage with milk in it. I don't know what that is, but it sounds disgusting.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I mean, that is a lot of, man, think about you have egg salad and lettuce already fucking swirling around in there. You're going to add milky booze to it on top of that?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Jesus, her stomach's going to be a mess.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So at home, Kathy had a drink, I guess, of the boozy milk. And he had, Jim has two beers, and he makes shrimp for Kathy as well. She eats some shrimp a little late.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She's putting it away. And they put Sarah into their bed at around 10 p.m. to go to sleep. They watch some TV. They relax in their library. They let their golden retriever, Amicus, out and then back in again. And then they go to bed around 11 o'clock after taking Sarah, putting her in her bed. Kathy goes to bed around 11. Jim still kicks around a little bit. He's in before midnight at some point.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, she's got to go to bed early or else... Well, she's probably been shitting for the last three hours. So she's just like, man, I'm tired. I'm tired. I got to lay down. So then the next morning, February 19th, 1982, around 6.30 a.m., Jim leaves for work. And this is uncontested because he gets to work at a certain time. And it takes that long to get there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So he had to have left his house by then. That's... Not contested at all. So he leaves. He puts amicus in the basement. I guess he does this every day so the dog doesn't bark at everybody that jogs by or trucks that go by. Yeah, and wake everybody up.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So he has his normal day at work, and then he returns home at about 4.50 p.m., which is a little bit early because he's planning to take Sarah to a podiatry appointment.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So there's that. OK. He comes home, take the kid to the doctor. So he gets home. He gets there. He said right away the garage door was open, which he knows he closed it and it's normally closed. But I mean, who knows if, you know, Kathy opened it for some reason, forgot to close it. People forget to close it. Who knows? Yeah. Who the hell knows out there?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So then he said he walked around to the front of the house and saw broken glass by the front door.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And their window, because it was one of those doors that has the windows with little panes in it. Yeah. The lower right-hand pane closest to the knob and the lock and everything is broken. And sitting next to the door is an axe. A maul, technically, this would be. So that's what's sitting next to the door. So like an axe with a big hard thing on the other side.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And we're going to specifically focus on the beginning and how the hell any of this shit happened.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. So if you get home from work and your wife and daughter are supposed to be in there and you see an ax sitting next to the door and the door broken and shit and the garage door was open, you might freak out a little bit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And that's the fucking thing, too, because also he's got like, yeah, you come home and you go, well, I mean, if he just lived by himself, he'd see that probably just call the cops. You know what I mean? But if your wife and kid are in there, you know, you have to go in there and see it, make sure everything's OK. Yeah, you have to. That's part of it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I mean, that's that's just minimal adult bravery. You have to do no matter what. You have to go in and try. So he runs upstairs to try because nobody's on the first floor. He doesn't see anybody. So he goes, oh, fuck. There's some stuff's a little messier than it usually is, which is weird. And he'll deal with that in a minute.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But he runs up the steps and runs into the master bedroom where he finds Kathy. She's still in bed. And she has a two and a half foot axe embedded in her skull.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
How did we get to the point where we were at? You know what I mean? How did we get pre-documentary, pre-Paradise Lost? What was bumbled? How did this even be a thing that happened? Fumbled. Fumbled and bumbled. Ruined. And fumbled. Fumbled, bumbled, and bungled all up at once. Check all that out. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show too.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's terrible. The crime scene pictures, it's embedded where the handle is sticking out straight. It's not leaning down. The axe is fully stuck in her head like you put it in a piece of wood to leave it there for tomorrow. Fucking horrifying. Yeah. She lay on her right side. Her arms pulled up toward her chest like she's sleeping, like fetal kind of. You curl up.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Blonde hair, bloody all over the pillow there. They said the killer had swung the axe with such force that the blade passed three and a half inches into her brain. That's a lot. Your skull's hard. There's a lot there. I mean, that is full on wood cutting swing that they took. Man, they believe that she was asleep when she died. She never saw it coming. Just one swing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's stuck in her fucking head. Yeah, that's it. Boom. Stuck in the head. So, obviously, Jim's next thought is, where the fuck is my daughter?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So he freaks out, runs in, goes to Sarah's room, and she's sitting on her bed completely fine.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Completely fine. I'm suspicious of her right now. It's a bad bitch, man. That's a bad little girl. You don't know. No, she's sitting up on her bed just doing her thing. She dressed herself. She's wearing like two sweaters. One's on backwards. She's got like three pairs of socks on. She doesn't know how to dress herself. So he freaks out, grabs his baby and runs out of the house as fast as he can.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He runs next door to his neighbor's house or across the way to his neighbor's house across the street. And the neighbor said when he came home a little before five, he found the back door broken and went into the house, found his wife, grabbed the daughter and ran out. They said the neighbor said that he came to the door clutching Sarah in his arms with a look of terror on his face.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Which I would hope so at that point. If he came over casual like he was going to borrow some fucking salt, that would be crazy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So he came to her at the door. She said she answered the door. She said, I saw Jim standing in the doorway clutching Sarah in his arms. I saw that Jim was drained of all color and he had a look of terror on his face and that he could not stop looking over at his house.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, oh, Jesus. So the neighbor asked, did something happen to Kathy? Is she okay? And then she said, is she hurt? Is she dead? The neighbor's going through like a list of things that could possibly be wrong. And Jim replied, I think so. Her body is limp. That's what he told the neighbor. Then she called police and said that she looked at Jim and she said he appeared to be going into shock.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He was starting to lose it. She said, though, he kept quietly asking Sarah whether she was OK and that he said the neighbor said every time Sarah spoke, he would cry and hug and kiss her. And neighbor said, I also heard Sarah say to Jim, I'm glad you came home early today, Daddy. Yeah, I guess so. So Sarah was in the house all day with her mother's body down the hall at four.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
When her father walked in, curled up in bed with her clothes on, just doing her thing. She's three and a half. So the neighbor calls 911, obviously, and the cops get there very quick. They start arriving at 503. Wow. Upscale suburban neighborhood with a death call there for that shit quickly. So they start arriving. They note that nothing is taken from the house, they said.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Jimmy will mess your name up real good for you. Don't worry about that. So that is fun stuff. That said, disclaimer time. Hey, everybody, this is a comedy show. Unfortunately, it's also a show about real murder that happens. So it's in case you wonder, nothing's made up for comic effect. We're not like, oh, let's embellish that because it'll be funny. No, no, no.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And also both the axe embedded in the skull and the mall outside the door are both property of the Krasiniks.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They're from the garage. Or out back, one of the two.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, something decided that was the way to go. I don't know what I'm doing out there. One of my favorite features, and I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. Yeah, it's simple. You scan any item, and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding these safe, healthy foods. For example, like I'm trying to get my protein intake up. Yeah. for energy. I'm always moving around. I need stuff. And I love that you can filter their site by the high protein options. It's very cool. And you can personalize this portion and you can put filters on it and get ready.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you all sorts of good stuff about Chime. That's what I'm talking about. There's so many extra fees you have to pay in life. Everything. You go to the airline, there's an extra ticket on that. There's extra fees.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I mean, you can't beat if things are a little tight, especially around the holidays or after the holidays. You need that money a couple days early. You go grocery shopping. You got a car payment due. There's so many things that don't.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
These are real stories and you just got to find the weird stuff in them. And you might say, how did true crime and comedy go together? Very easily, if you do it right. That's the thing. The thing is, you never have to make fun of the victim or the victim's family.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So she had been killed by a single blow to the head with an axe. They said that she was struck with an axe one blow and that was it is the quote from the police officer there. They said we feel she was killed sometime prior to 930 a.m. She was still in her bed still in her nightclothes. She had no appearance of having been gotten out of bed. Right. So that makes sense.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And they said that they have no suspects, but they're not ruling anyone out. We're looking at everything, trying to put things in place. They speak to Jim for about five or six hours that night. And the detective who interviewed him said he would go from being very deliberate with his answers to very emotional or he would cry a little bit, which is not out of the ordinary.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No, I think that's very ordinary.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Explaining stuff, then when the load of it hits you, then you're upset and you get your shit together for a little bit. Over the course of six hours, you can go in and out of that a lot. So he said that he saw the first floor and the broken glass and he said, I called for my family, didn't get any answer. He said, I ran up the stairs and went into the bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And there's a reason for that, because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. See how that works? Yeah. It's real easy to do. So if you think that true crime and comedy, though, never go together and you don't want to hear that, well, then I don't know why you're even listening to the show. But it might not be what you think, so check it out. No complaining later. Mm-hmm.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Kathy was in bed in our room and she had been struck in the head with a long handled ax. I saw the back of her head. I did not touch my wife. Okay. But she said she was limp, which I don't know how he would know she was limp at that point. That's weird. And she wouldn't be limp anyway. By now she'd be in rigor probably. So I don't know if she'd come out of it by now.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they said Sarah had a red sweater over a pink sweater with a blue ABC corduroy pants and two pairs of socks. He said, I was going to say, this kid's got fashion sense. She said, Jim said, she looked dazed to me. I picked her up from her bed and ran downstairs and out the front door with her.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So Krasinec's parents, Jim's parents, drive in from Michigan, arriving at the police station around midnight to support him. police suggest after hours of talking and he's got the kid there and everything else, they say, listen, why don't you and Sarah go with your parents to a hotel and get some sleep and then come back at eight 30 in the morning and we'll finish this. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
We'll talk more about this. So everyone said, okay, that's great. See you at eight 30 tomorrow. And everybody left with the detective said he never came back. They said the family checked out of the hotel that morning and drove to Michigan and
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Which is not a good, that's not a good start here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I mean, I think that's pretty important to talk now, probably, for this. It is like homicide detectives, you know.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They'll figure it out. Yeah, I don't know. So they're wondering, is this a burglary? Is this what happened? So they said there were indications of burglary at the house, the detective said. They said behind the house they found a wood splitting mall that had been used to shatter the glass.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Inside, the detective described it as one of the most sterile crime scenes he'd ever seen, which is interesting. They're unable to find any forensic clues, no fingerprints, nothing like that. They did find what they said, what they thought looked like evidence of a staged burglary, they said.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They said there were valuable items scattered across the dining room floor, including Kathy's purse and a tea set.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So like a silver tea set, like, you know, whatever. Like they said, there was like a plastic bag there, a black plastic like lawn bag.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And like that shit in a pile in the middle, like someone was going to put that stuff in the plastic bag type of deal. So they said Kathy's purse was nearby also with its contents strewn across the carpet. You can see this in the crime scene photos. There is a pile of shit, candelabras and all that shit, and then the tea set, and then her purse is there with shit coming out of it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That said, everybody, I think it's time to sit back. Let's all take deep breaths. Here we go. Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. Let's get into this. We are going to New York this week. Yeah. Been a while since we've been to New York, actually.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they said nothing appeared stolen, though. This was in the dining room on the first floor. They found this stuff. So at first they said they thought it was a burglary, but then they said everything seemed too neat. They said upstairs, downstairs, there was money, there was jewelry laying out in plain sight, things that a burglar would just swipe on the way and stuff in their pockets.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they said it's interesting. They said, quote, we didn't find anything taken from the house. All the indications of a burglary seem to be set up. So that's interesting. So now they think that there's a staged burglary involved in this murder. So now they start to focus their attention on Jim. They go, why would a stranger stage a burglary? That's the main question they have.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So February 19th, the day after the murder here, they said there was an absence of fingerprints in the house. Now, we're not talking an absence of weird fingerprints, aberrant fingerprints. They said they checked the entire house, everything in it, the ax, the walls, the doors, the doorknobs. They didn't find a single fingerprint, not even any belonging to the Krasnick family.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They're smooth, just smooth fingered people, these people.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Imagine wiping down all your doorknobs all the time.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Even like the sink in the, you know, when you touch the sink, the toilet bowl fucking plunger, like none of that stuff. The handle, you know, the blusher there. There'd be prints on something. They said, though, nothing. The detective said it was like nobody lived there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Even Sarah was out all day by herself. She didn't leave any fingerprints on anything.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they say the police say the killer may have worn gloves, but they didn't find any discarded gloves at the scene. Well, I mean, outside of OJ, most people don't leave their murder gloves at the scene.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Somewhere, you throw that out somewhere else. They even took apart the tub and the sinks, checking for blood in the traps and shit like that, because they find that a lot. They found nothing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now, it's hard to blame Jim at this point because Jim went to work.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So he would definitely have had to take a shower after that to go to work. So there would be blood in the drain probably. You know what I mean? In the traps. So in the garage, they did find a piece of carpet that had been removed from the first floor bathroom, washed and draped over a stroller to dry. But they don't know how long it's been there. It could have been there for weeks.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They have no fucking idea. Yeah. So they said the carpet and the liquid in the drains were sent to a laboratory for analysis but got nothing out of that. Nothing at all. No old blood, no anything.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Nothing. No signs of cover up or anything.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's it. So the detectives, the one sort of clue they have is a faint shoe print inside the trash bag near the tea set on the ground. It's a very faint, just a shoe print of, you know, if the shoe was a little dusty and you stepped on it and you leave an impression. And it's of they said it's very specific to a boat shoe. Okay, like a specific kind of boat shoe.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And they found a pair of boat shoes that belonged to Jim in the house that they say may have matched up, but they don't take them in for evidence at all.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They don't grab those for later. And to compare them, they don't do that. They just take a picture of the boat shoes sitting on the carpet, not their tread on the bottom, nothing. There they are. There's boat shoes. This is not the best police investigation going here. Not good. So they set up roadblocks and interview people at every home on the street and streets nearby.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No one reported seeing an intruder or any sign of trouble. Later on, they'll talk to a lady who has a much different story because she wasn't home when they went around canvassing here. The authorities also now they travel to Michigan, to Colorado, to Virginia to talk to people who knew the Krausenecks to try to figure out if James did this or not.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So it's going to be a thing here. We are going to Brighton, New York. This is in western New York, outside of Rochester. It's only about 10 minutes outside of Rochester. So this is like Rochester suburbs, which is about an hour and 15 minutes away from Buffalo. So kind of up in that cold lake effect snow quadrant of the state there. Almost six hours to New York City.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They also check similar killings around the country to see if there's any connection. Nothing there, they say. So February 19th, 1982, they interview Sarah. She's three and a half years old. If you've ever watched an interrogation, a three and a half year old, this is not the environment for them as far as getting anything out of them. It's not going to work.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they do get out of her that she said she saw, quote, a bad man. Oh, in the house. And she said he had a hammer in his head, the bad man in his head. Then she said it was an ax in his head that he had.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She also described the man's face because they said, well, what color was he? Because they're getting a description. Was he big? Was he short? Was he fat? Was he tall? Is he white? Is he like him? Is he like me? Yeah. And she described his face as, quote, many colors. He's just super diverse. That's what she's all about. Yeah. She's like, he was a man of many colors. That's what he was.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Not me. I'm not going to HR tomorrow. Fuck that shit. So the detective had their own interpretation of this. Yeah. They decide that Sarah was not seeing a man in the house, a bad man as described. She was just seeing her dead mother covered in blood, and that's the many faces and the axe in her head.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Meanwhile, she said she saw a bad man walking around.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Which is, her mother wasn't ever walking around.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's fucked up. So it seems to me like probably she saw a bad man and also saw her mother and is just conflating them together because she's three.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She's just mixing the shit up all together. But she probably saw both, I would imagine. Then it comes out. There's an article in the newspaper and everything saying this is a cursed house. That's the problem. It's the house's fault.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's practically poltergeist over here. That's the problem here. Yeah. Because Kathy is the third person to die in this house since 1977. Is that right? The second person to die in that bedroom exactly where that bed was, by the way, too. But the reason is it's not like somebody they were murdered or anything like that. There was an elderly couple who owned the house at the time.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They died of asphyxiation there in 1977. Yeah, the wife was found dead in the exact same placement of the bed and everything in the bedroom, whereas her husband was found downstairs in a chair, dead. The police found that they were overcome by fumes of their car. The wife had gone out shopping, came home, and left the car running in the attached garage and killed them both.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I've heard of that a lot, actually.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
A lot. Yes. It happens. It's more common now, actually. Really? Because cars are quiet now.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And they have the buttons and not the keys. So you used to take your keys out and then go unlock your door.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now you press the button. There's no keys. So some people forget to press the button. The cars are quiet. They're not all jerky like a 1981 Buick or anything. So this happens. It's so common now that this happens.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Luckily, yeah. Yeah. But that's the thing. It could very easily happen.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Because you're still breathing. Yeah. Your whole family hasn't been killed, so that's good. So that's a big risk out there right now. That happens a lot. So February 20th now, this is when the autopsy is done and Jim goes back to Michigan. And he spoke to investigators again and agreed to another meeting with investigators the afternoon of the 20th.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And if you look it up on a map how to get there and just say Brighton, New York to New York City, you have to go through two other states to get there. Jesus. It goes Pennsylvania, then New Jersey, and then you go up to New York City. If you went through New York, it takes even longer. It's fucking crazy. And it is about three hours and 15 minutes to Walton, New York.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But when the time came, Jim and Sarah already were gone back to Michigan again. So they've gone back and forth to Michigan several times. The medical examiner concluded shockingly that the cause of death was an axe wound to the head.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
great police i very rarely think that i can do medical things because i'm an idiot but yeah i could have probably found the cause of death there one injury and she's not one injury and she's not oh and her whole brain is bisected by an axe yeah i'm gonna go with axe to the head yeah probably what's going on here but i mean she wasn't poisoned beforehand or anything like that well i mean she tried to but she did yeah
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, and basically they find that the – with her food, with her goddamn dinner. They find that they think she died around – from 6.30 to 9.30 a.m. Okay. Which that's one thing in like crime technology and medical technology that has not improved. The best they can still give you is a three-hour window. That's the best they can do now to this day, 45 years after this.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I mean, the factors are so hard to tell.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So a neighbor of the Krausenachs said that she heard a moaning sound.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Around one or two in the morning, the morning of the killing. No one's allowed to fuck in this neighborhood, by the way, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I'll tell the cops about it. And then followed quickly thereafter by a dog barking. And the cops go, the Krasineks have a dog.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Which, it's a suburban street. You know how many people probably have a fucking dog on the street? Probably 80% of the people on the street have a dog, I bet. Just saying. So this is not, you know, real exclusive to them. So the authorities, though, they cannot prove that Jim had been home at the time of the murder because the time of death is put at 630 to 930.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And we know he left for work at 630 and he showed up without any brain or blood on him or anything like that. And he wouldn't have time to clean up. So, yeah. They don't really have anything they can do here with Jim. Their hands are kind of tied. So they talked to Jim again, and Jim says that Thursday night before the murder, the family ran errands. Him and his wife had dinner, had some wine.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They were in bed by midnight. I was in bed by midnight. I think Kathy went to bed at about 11. So they said they were unable to confirm that he spent the night in bed with his wife. They couldn't confirm that, they said. They said, we didn't find the normal things, hairs and things you would expect to find on his side. So he's not shedding. So what? Leave the guy alone.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And there's also no goddamn fingerprints anywhere. So the family, he said that he kept saying, I left for work at about 6.30 a.m., returned at 5. There's Kathy at 10 to 5. So I don't know what to tell you. They said that the autopsy shows her body was slightly warm to the touch and in full rigor when they got there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The body temperature and an examination of her organs prompted the medical examiner to, you know, give the time of death between 630 and 930. And we'll find there's a various estimates of this later on. They said this is Krauseneck's later on. His people say from the initial stages of the investigation, the time of death was a paramount concern to the investigators.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
which was our last episode from New York, which was Runaway Husband, episode 502, which was a fun episode. So this week there, there's the county for this week's show is in Monroe County. Brighton, New York is in and it is area code 585 and a little bit of history here. The town was named for Brighton, England, obviously, which looks nothing like this.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It was largely indisputable that James had left his home at approximately 6.30 a.m. and spent the entire day at Kodak. Can't dispute that. He showed up. There's other people there, so we know when he got there. The cops said if the time of death were before he left for work, obviously that would be inculpatory.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
On the other hand, if the time of death included the time when he already left for work, it would exculpate him. So there you go. The stomach contents, and this is a big deal. The autopsy shows Kathy's stomach contents. You'd think it would just be gross. All sorts of shit that doesn't belong together mixing around.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Her stomach was completely empty.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And her blood was free of alcohol.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, passage of time. And your body obviously stops digesting if you're dead.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
There you go. And they they estimated then that, you know, that could mean a later time of death. Even they also said that her not only is her stomach empty, her bladder is completely full. Oh. which they said would indicate that she had a full night's sleep for her stomach to empty and her bladder to be completely full. This probably didn't happen at one in the morning. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It just wouldn't happen like that. So that's another thing. Now they said they have no evidence against Jim, no clear motive, but God damn it. Are they suspicious of him?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Goes cold. Freaks the neighborhood out. I mean, this is like, in their minds, some crazed lunatic came to their neighborhood, broke into someone's house, and put a fucking ax in their head, and that could happen to any of them. This is typical suburban panic here after this. But, you know, they just, that's it. They don't know what to do. Jim and Sarah move out west.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They move to a couple different places. They'll end up in Washington for a while. They're in Michigan, as we'll talk about. Yeah, they said that they hired a lawyer also, Jim's family, and the lawyer told police that anytime you want to talk to Jim, I'm there too. Uh-huh.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You've talked to him 10 fucking times and you've got nothing and you're not going to you're not going to railroad my client, basically. So they said that the condition also for an interview would be no statement made by Jim could be used against him in any way, which is not how they do interrogations. And no one's going to agree to that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So and the detective said we weren't willing to do that because we still had too many unanswered questions. That's basically if they didn't think he did it, that's a way for the lawyer to find out what they're thinking, because if they didn't think he did it, they'd be like, fine, great. We don't think he did it. We just need information.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But if they say no, no, no, then that means that they're suspicious of your clients. That was a way to suss out how they feel here. So that's it. He doesn't talk to them anymore after that. They don't want to talk to him with the lawyer.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No. So shortly... Now, during the investigation, one of the things that made them very suspicious of Jim was that shortly after the murder, police learned that Jim had not completed the final portions of his doctorate and had lied to both Lynchburg College and Kodak about that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Okay. So they say that they think their big fucking theory of this case is that Kathy became... She found out about this... And lost her mind. Does that sound relevant? Does that sound probable? Plausible to you? Yeah, that doesn't sound like what would happen. That sounds like if your spouse and you told them that, they'd be like, oh, well, how do we save your job?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's a beach town with like, you know, all sorts of piers and boardwalks and like Ferris wheels and shit. It's definitely not
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Would be first, how do we do this? Because, you know, this is how we pay bills and eat and shit. And eat weird foods that make me shit weird. So, please. Help me out here. So I don't know what the fuck is going on here. Kathy, usually your spouse isn't like against you, like your job. If you get in trouble at work, your spouse doesn't. You're not in trouble with them, too.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They're usually on your side. That's the point.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You fucking married these people. So they don't think so, though. They think Kathy became aware of the lie, freaked out, and Jim had no choice but to murder her while she slept. Which really seems like a stretch for me.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Then head off to work and act like nothing happened all day. Then come on home for the podiatry appointment. It's very weird shit here. They really, really, really, really want to talk to Jim, though. February 20th, 1983, there's a newspaper article about this, and Jim says he'll talk to the press, but he won't talk to the cops.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Jim says that he wants to forget that night completely, that whole day when he came home. He said he's trying to put it out of his mind. And he said that he's refused to talk to the police since last March. He said, I understand the police have their jobs to do. I appreciate that, but it's too difficult for me to talk about it. That's what he said.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's definitely not a cold gray western New York suburb for sure. Dump snow. You know, one of those. The first Europeans in this area were French trappers in the 1600s who would visit here but didn't settle here. They're like, listen, we'll go up there and get some fur and then go back to where it doesn't snow four feet at a time. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He was at this point working at his father's carpet store in Michigan when the press are talking to him. And they said he's neatly dressed in a blue blazer and red silk tie. They said his eyes became filled with tears as he begins to tremble when asked about his wife's death. He says, I just want to put it all behind me now. I'd really rather not discuss it. It's hard enough for me to deal with.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I don't see how other people would want to hear about it. He said, it's been my decision, my policy not to talk. I'd rather stick to my policy. Store policy. Sorry.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Fuck, can't do it, man. I'm going to talk to my dad. He's the one who owns it. So they said that neither the lawyer nor the police will reveal the conditions at the time for an interview, which we found out later and I told you about. They said the police, though, in their investigation have many unanswered questions they believe only Jim can answer.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
One of the homicide detectives said, we don't have the privilege of talking to him. We'd still like to talk to him very, very much. He's a primary witness. He's allegedly the last person who saw his wife alive. We'd like to know more of what transpired the preceding day that night, what happened the night before.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
which we have a general idea because they went to three different stores and they were doing shit. So they believe that interviewing Krasnick can help lead them to an arrest, but they're unwilling to conduct an interview under conditions. They said there's no law, obviously, that states an individual has to talk to the police. You don't have to talk to anybody. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So the only way they can force him would be to subpoena him to testify before a grand jury. They said in New York State, however, an individual who testifies before a grand jury is given immunity from prosecution in that case unless they waive that right. So if they want him to testify, if they want to talk to him, they've got to subpoena him for a grand jury.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And at that point, they can't charge him with anything or use anything he said against him.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So, yeah. So they said, we've elected not to subpoena Mr. Krasnick because that, like, automatically gives him immunity. They said, we don't want to give him immunity in the case, just in case. They also said they wanted to have a child psychologist talk with Sarah, but Jim wouldn't allow it. Because you can twist anything from a kid. I mean, you can twist a kid's words.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You can make a kid believe something that they don't. There's a lot of tons of you can you can push a kid into thinking anything and saying anything. That's the problem with that. So I don't think I would let my daughter do that either without having, you know, my people there to help out. You know, that that happens a lot.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They said a little more time spent with her and we probably would have been able to get more information. But as time passed, it certainly wouldn't have been beneficial to the child's welfare to pursue questioning. They think she probably forgot. They said the case is open and they're pursuing active leads. The one cop said, I was very optimistic in the beginning.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I'm a little pessimistic now, but this case will never be closed. It will remain open. There's always a chance that someday this individual may slip up, meaning the killer here. So, yeah, this is and like I said, while this is going on, it is complete fucking panic in the neighborhood. Complete panic. They there's the people in the streets are talking to the cops are talking to the press.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And one resident said, we just want to forget the whole thing and go on with our lives. But they said this is a tragedy that rocked our community. When you see the figure of a female lying in bed with an axe in her head, you don't just want to walk out of there and forget it ever happened.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
English colonists built permanent structures in about 1790. So it took a long time for that to happen here. And they have formally established a town in 1814, making it one of the oldest towns in Monroe County. It was mainly a farming community, and they also made bricks here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they said local hardware stores are selling deadbolt locks and security systems and police stations are flooded with calls, not with information, with questions of have you arrested anybody for that yet?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Get them. Let's go. So they said it was just a brutal thing and they're all terrified. Now, at the time, Jim goes back to Michigan. They still own the house. Oh, OK. So a young couple in August of 1982. This is fucking a few months after this happened. They leased the house from Krasneck with an option to buy. We'll go shit. Two hundred bucks off the murder house. Fuck it. Let's do it. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's a couple that's looking for a bargain right there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's some bargain hunting. Yeah. They looked around for murders that took place and they were like, there we go. Once they get the blood out of the master, I think this is going to be beautiful. We could do this. So, yeah, they said they were working out a deal to buy the house from him because, I mean, Jim just wants rid of this place basically.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
A psychological profile of the killer is sent for. Basically, they go to Quantico. If you've seen Mindhunter, this is exactly what they were doing. This is the profiler department here. And so they have a profile. They won't release it or say anything about it. They just say that the detective said it's a piece of evidence that I have in case this case comes to trial.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they're going to keep it, and if it happens to match up with a suspect later, they'll use it in trial. But if they put it out now, then that would be bad if it doesn't match up to the person who actually did it. So they're just going to sit on it. So Jim and Jim and Sarah had moved to St. Clair, Michigan. Kathy's buried there. Jim worked for his father's store. He gets remarried in 1986.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, but is divorced nine months later. So he was just trying to find something to latch on to.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Or he just married somebody that he didn't really like because he wanted to get a female figure for Sarah. And he was trying he's trying to rebuild his family, basically, you know, trying to make make it out of something. Then they end up moving to Washington State, Jim and Sarah. Oh, all the way out west near his sister and brother in law.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And his parents also bought a home in Washington with plans to retire there. So it's going to be a they're going to move their whole brood from Michigan out to Washington, basically. Yeah. And so the case, though, little progress. The police, they still keep doing things. They travel back to St. Clair, Michigan in 1984 and 1985.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The latter trip was trying to get an interview with Sarah, and that was unsuccessful. They said no. Then in 1986, a D.A. named Howard Howard Relin consulted the Monroe County medical examiner, Dr. Nicholas Forbes. Forbes estimated that depending on the rate, the body cooled, that she could have died as early as five fifty five a.m. Who knows? They're like, can you give us maybe 6.30 is tough.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
seasonably farming obviously yeah season yeah that that month that three weeks of summer that you get i feel like is a big deal and then they made they got fires burning they made bricks yeah um that's how it happened but that's it was like a you know farms and brick manufacturing and then it slowly became suburbs like an upscale suburb basically of rochester when they got rid of all that shit
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
If we could get it back to 6, then we could put another suspect in here. But he said there's no precise way to determine time of death. This is all a big guessing game. Yeah. So they said at this point, James is the only suspect. And they determined that his guilt could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt just by saying that she could have died as early as 555. They have no other evidence.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So no physical evidence. So the case is very, very cold now. They kind of just give up on it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Colder. It's cold as a fucking Brighton night in February. So they kind of put it on the shelf, basically. I mean, those cases are always active if someone comes forward, but there's no one actively working it, probably. 1988. The matter was reviewed periodically, apparently, probably once a year. They do a sweep through cold cases just to say they did it, basically.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So in 1988, the Brighton police sought to educate younger officers in the case details as officers working the case originally had started to retire now. So they need to get everyone familiar with it. The file was also updated as Brighton police learn new information such as, you know, when Jim changed residences or got married. They would note that in the file as well.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They said leads occasionally came in and were investigated, but there was never anything useful that came. So 1991 comes around, nine years. That's a long time. It's a long fucking time. They've never made an arrest. They've never even established a fucking motive. Even for Jim, they don't have a motive.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Because they didn't have a bunch of insurance or anything like that. They weren't fighting. They weren't about to get divorced, fighting over the kid. Literally no reason. And also, it's not like he had a girlfriend they found out and they were together a week later. He didn't have a girlfriend. There's literally zero reason to murder your wife with an ax here. So that's what's a little bit weird.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So family members in Michigan by 1991 are complaining to the press, to the police, to anyone that'll listen that the investigation is targeting Jim still without any evidence. Nine years later, they won't leave this poor fucking man alone is basically what his side's saying. So Krauseneck never spoke publicly about anything since 1983 when he talked to the cops.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now they talked to him in 1991 here, sitting outside Seattle. 1991 sitting in Seattle, I assume in a flannel shirt. Fresh from a Soundgarden show. He's just sitting there. He's only 39, so maybe. Higher. Tired, real tired.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's been a rough one. Yeah, it was a Pearl Jam Soundgarden double bill. It was really tough over there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So he says still he has no theory about how or why his wife was killed. He said you wrestle with that for so long and finally you just give up trying to figure it out. There's no logic in it, he said. He said, you know, hopefully there's no statute of limitations. He said hopefully they'll find somebody. Maybe.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And he said that the only reason he agreed to discuss this case with the newspaper was he thought maybe an article would jog someone's memory or something and they would, you know, find something. Um, they talk about that. He hasn't allowed Sarah to be interviewed without his consent, which, you know, he's, she's a minor, so she can't.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So she said that he does say that Sarah, who was 12 at this time, did have independent memories of her mother's death. She does remember it, but. Yeah. He says, I think Sarah knows what happened to her mom. She was there that day. It's not something we talk about very often. I think she has her own way of thinking about it. She's had to figure out her own way of dealing with it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, that's tough. Now, Kathy's sister, Annette, the one that stayed with them for a year in Virginia, she's a social worker in Detroit. And she has ideas about who it is.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
In 1999, the town purchased 64 acres with the intention of developing a central park. They don't have a central park.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She says, quote, I think it was just some crazed psycho, either mistaken identity or high on drugs, who broke in and probably doesn't remember to this day what happened, so he'll never confess.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She said Kathy has no enemies. She led an almost perfect life. There was no reason for anyone to kill her. True. And relatives. And this is this is interesting. Not only Jim's relatives, but Kathy's relatives also complain that the investigation seemed to focus only on Jim and they don't believe he did it. So they're like, you're wasting your fucking time.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, I mean, if he didn't put shoes on, none of this ever happened. So she says, this is Annette, says, I still believe that the police needed someone to point a finger at to get the general public off their back. I'm speaking on behalf of my whole family when I say we're still behind Jim 100%. Wow. So that's the Schlosser family.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But the detectives said that they're upset that the family hasn't cooperated fully with them. He said, I guess my big this is a ridiculous statement, by the way, because it's nine years later. Quote, I guess my biggest disappointment in the whole case is the lack of participation by the victim's family. They have never banged on my desk, hollered at me, wanted something done. Do we have to?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You're a fucking homicide detective.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You put the files up there and you're like, whoever comes in and yells at me, I'll go investigate that case next. The fuck are you talking about? This is a self-motivated fucking business here. I don't know, man.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Intention. They bought this land, and now it's still there, but it's not exactly a landscaped park.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
What if she didn't... What if she didn't have any family? Then what? You just go, hey, fuck it. Cool. It's a freebie for us. Throw it on the shelf and never look at it again. Fuck these people. What are we talking about? Yeah, it's fucking crazy. So Annette Schlosser says, quote, would it make it? Would it make the police feel better if we went down there and pounded on the door?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Is that their way of telling us you're protecting Jim?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Which is basically, yes. Yeah. Asked if he resented the way the police have conducted their investigation on everything. Jim said, quote, maybe they're misdirected, but who knows? Maybe that's part of their job, which is very reasonable. It's a very reasonable statement. Jim said he was working in the lumber industry at this point, and he said the killing has changed his priorities.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He said parenthood has become the most important thing in life. He said that was kind of Kathy's job before, and now it's kind of my job. Well, it was kind of your job then, too, and still is, is really the way it works. He said, I don't think about it often, but that's something I think about that I owe to her. Okay, is to take care of their daughter. Yeah, I would say so, Jim. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Other family here, you know, they said they're sad. Kathy's family talks about this. Kathy's brother-in-law said it would certainly help just to kind of finish things. And her sister Annette said, of course I want justice and I'd want to see that person go through the same kind of cruelty that he or she put Kathy through.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But I think if the killer was to come up now, it would make it very difficult. I don't know if it would be better or worse.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I think it's been over 10 years. So they're like, you know, the wounds are healing. Yeah. Is it going to just make it? Is it going to help? It's not going to help us much. And it's just going to be now years of this and court and appeals. And, you know, there's going to be a lot of shit. So who knows? They're thinking maybe it's better if it just all goes away and we try to forget it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, tons of shit. I've been sitting there for two years. I'll get to it. I just usually don't purchase 64 acres of land first. It's the only difference. They had the Alcoa Carefree Home back in the day, which was the first. Alcoa is the aluminum company of America, by the way. They're a big deal. Big deal. And back, they were an even bigger deal.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
In 1997, Jim meets his current wife, Sharon. He talks to her. An old friend of his, actually, known her for years, named Sharon James. They were at a trade show. They ran into each other. And they date from 97 to 99 and get married in 1999. Mm-hmm. Now, from 1992 to 1999, 2000, a lot of things change. Number one, Jim gets remarried and all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Kathy's sister now has completely changed her mind. Oh? Completely changed her mind.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Absolutely. Now he's 100% against him now. She now says he had motive to commit murder.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
which I'm still wondering about that. They said that she and her family believe that Kathy discovered her husband had lied to her as employer. And that's what caused the whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She said, my sister, Kathy was all about education.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. Way more than way more than feeding her daughter and all that kind of stuff. It's way more than the rest of the stuff in life. She just cared that you had a doctorate. That was it. She was all about social status. She wanted the best for her and her family. And we believe that when she found out Jim didn't get his Ph.D., he was confronted. And I think you can take the rest from there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Really? Wow, right from there. From a fight about, well, I'm getting it and it's fine and Kodak's going to keep me and we can keep our lifestyle and pay our bills to I'm going to murder you is a huge stretch.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
embedding it dropping you figure yeah kodak wasn't even as that mad at him they didn't even care no right how the fuck is kathy gonna be yeah you have to kill her worth of man jesus christ 2005 comes around okay it has been 23 fucking years now long time yeah entered um this one guy we're going to talk about here this is fucking funny Remember A Current Affair? Yeah. That shit at the end.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Well, in 2005, there was A Current Affair 2.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, because they got rid of A Current Affair, and then they were like, people really are clamoring for A Current Affair again. So and they said that the mysteries were the cornerstone of their show. And they said that this show, this case fit their show perfectly. The producer said it was the awfulness of the crime and the lack of any understandable motive or scenario that would explain it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's like an unsolved mysteries. It's interesting. So enter Mark Henderson, the new Brighton police chief. He looks like a meathead of the highest order. He looked like he played high school football, hit his head a lot, went to community college for six months, and then joined the police force, and somehow now he's chief, and his main quote is, duh. That's what he looks like.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, boy. I could be totally wrong, but he looks dumb as shit. That doesn't help. So he is watching. No. Jesus Christ. So the producer of the episode actually sent the episode to the new police chief of Brighton.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Try to get some kind of get a quote from him or what? So it was at this point that the the FBI was preparing a cold case collaboration with local police to tackle on long unsolved crimes all over the country. So the current affair to segment, they said, provided a tight synopsis of the whole thing. You know, they're good at putting that shit into 15 minutes.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So anybody who doesn't know anything about the case can get caught up real quick with that. They said he was the only one who really did something with it, meaning Henderson. Henderson was delighted because it basically laid out a lot of the story. He's like, I don't even have to read now. Good. They handed me a file and I was like, there's a lot of words in this, you know, and I put it down.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
We made shit out of aluminum more than just cans, basically. So they wanted to make aluminum houses. Oh, so they had these model homes. This is this there that you could see. And they built all these model homes. And then nobody ever said that's a good idea. So they never built their house out of the shit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They got the pictures and everything. I said, give me anything with more pictures. And he said, there's pictures of the scene. And he was like, I need pictures of, like, people. I don't know nothing. I can't read these names.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
This is odd. Oh, geez. Is this the guy? Should I tackle him? No, no, no. You want to talk to him. Sit him down. Interview him. So I should tackle him. Yeah, just tackle him.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I think that he'll realize that we're on to him then. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He's going to know then. Up until then, he won't know, you know?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
This former chief of the police here, Eugene Shaw, who headed the department in 1982 and was chief for 22 years, kept parts of the police file on his desk. Some nights after reviewing the files or receiving an occasional tip, he would make a cassette recording at home about the unsolved murder. So he's kind of kept a good case file.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So Henderson, Meathead Henderson, reexamines the case along with Brighton Police investigators, and they enlist the help of the district attorney also to assign investigators so they can have more people looking at this. Okay. So they are hot on Jim's trail here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Almost got him. Then in 2014, that was 2005. Now we're in 2014. Yeah. Nothing happened of it. There's a guy named Ed Larrabee, Edward Larrabee. He's 59 years old in 2014. He's been in prison since 1994. My God. Yeah, he's serving two life sentences for sexual abuse, rape, and attempted murder.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, he's one of the worst guys ever. The Department of Corrections confirms all of his charges. He is a career rapist, he's called.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
A career break-in, entering rapist. That's what he does. He breaks into suburban homes and apartments and rapes women, and they think kills some of them, too. They're trying to put murders on him. He lives a five-minute walk from Jim and Kathy's house. That's where he lived in 1983.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Five minute walk, not even drive right there. OK, now, while Ed is in prison here, this is for all the shit we talked about. He is sent to a medical center in 2001 after complaining of chest pains. One of the two. Then he does this in July of 2001, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
While one of the two corrections officers assigned to guard him left briefly for the restroom, Larrabee took the nurse's call cord, wrapped it around correction officer Patrick Keeley's neck, and attempted to strangle him to death. That's what a good guy this is. He's in the hospital in prison for chest pains.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
As soon as he sees an opportunity, he tries to strangle one of the fucking officers to death.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
This guy is a problem, obviously. So during the struggle, the officer managed to free himself but sustained injuries, obviously. So he was then charged with two counts of attempted murder in the first degree, one count of escape in the second degree as well. Wow. That is crazy. So they tried to present psychological, psychiatric evidence to this whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The trial court granted his motion to hire a psychiatrist to evaluate those aspects of the case that you feel are relevant to this possible defenses that would be available. OK, now we'll talk about this. They said that he goes to see a psychiatrist and does all this.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
At trial, he admitted that he had placed the call accord around the officer's neck, but claimed he had only done so to facilitate his own escape, not to try to kill the guy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. You know, a lot of people with aluminum houses. No, not on a foundation.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I was just trying to strangle him unconscious so I could walk away happy. Yeah, that's not a good thing. He said he was motivated to escape because his life was in danger after he was identified as a snitch who had cooperated with corrections authorities trying to locate weapons at the facility. He tried to get some extra fucking privileges, and now they want to strangle him.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Anyway, he said that the prison administration had received anonymous notes threatening Larrabee, so he was placed in protective custody after being stabbed by another inmate. But the threats of violence and harassment continued. So this is the thing. By 2014, I'm just going to give you an idea of who we're dealing with, a rapist and a psychopath and just a guy who's a real problem.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
In 2014, he's dying from ALS. So karma works sometimes. Sure does. Gave him the worst, most painful, horrible way to fucking die for a guy who absolutely deserves it. That's good. So at this point, obviously, he's a career criminal. He has been arrested and considered a criminal for rape and attempted murder, all this type of shit. While he's dying, he is confessing to things that he did.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, exactly. That's what then after that, they were like, OK, people don't want to build their homes out of aluminum. What if we just fucking encase the home in aluminum? How about that? Maybe that we can get them to do that. The Stone Tollan House is also here, which is a historic place. It's just a really old farmhouse that's there. Famous people that have lived here and are from here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And a lot of them. And it's all checking out, all the shit he did. It says he killed a woman named Stephanie Kopchinski, who we'll talk about, which he did kill her. She was definitely dead, and he definitely killed her.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He also writes a written confession saying he killed Kathy Krausenick. Oh. Lives a five-minute walk away.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Okay. Now, the authorities, though, say, no, we don't buy it. They don't believe him. They don't believe it. They said that he mischaracterized her as a brunette.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's the one fatal flaw. Meanwhile, this happened 30 years ago, over 30 years before this, and he's done a lot of horrible shit since then. And it was early in the morning. The curtains were probably drawn and her blonde hair could look darker. Who the fuck knows?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they said at the scene they found no evidence of sexual abuse. So they said they do not take they take no action with Ed Larrabee. Meanwhile, he absolutely insists that he did it. He describes the house. He describes breaking in with the mall. He describes that there was a kid there. He described everything like he fucking seems to me like he went in to probably try to rape her. Right.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
heard a fucking kid stirring and said oh shit gotta go fuck this yeah you know he's never done anything to kids in his criminal record so maybe he said oh fuck i don't want to have to kill a kid right Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about a healthy, delicious item, Hero Bread. And we're both trying to get healthier this new year.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Jimmy had an eye-opening doctor's appointment and things like that. So we're trying to get healthier, and I'm telling you right now, this Hero Bread is a good step in this direction. It's delicious, and it is really good for you, and it's really excellent. They have the sliced bread is good, the bagels, the tortillas.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They're so good. You get the soft, fluffy experience you know and love with your savory breakfast sandwich, late night grilled cheese, taco Tuesday. Do it. No compromises. Just flavor. Ultra low net carbs. Zero grams of sugar. High in fiber. It's fantastic. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use the code smalltownmurder at checkout.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's smalltownmurder at h-e-r-o dot c-o. And now back to the show. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you about the safest sponsor ever. Simply safe. Absolutely. These people will keep you safe. It's amazing. You know that every 26 seconds a burglary takes place in the United States, according to the FBI. That means that by the time this podcast is over.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Kristen Wiig is from here, I believe.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
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Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
SNL actress. And then Frederick Douglass lived here for a long time, so that was pretty cool, too. Lived here? Lived here for a while, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Let me kill this lady quick and get the fuck out of here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And that would make sense, too, to if he was going to steal shit that it got left behind.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Then the husband with no motive did it and no reason to.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. Or the or the rapist attempted murderer lunatic who lived a five minute walk. And it gets worse, too. There's more evidence for that, too. So it gets even worse here. It's crazy. Now, the Stephanie Kupchinsky that he admitted to killing here. This was in 1991. He said he murdered her. He provided details that would and he ended up actually being charged with that murder.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And several other crimes he admitted to, too, they were going to charge him with. But he died before anything happened because he had ALS and was dying.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Didn't matter. Now, Ed Larrabee had a horrible reputation even in prison as a violent lunatic, obviously, as we've described here. One of the detectives who investigated him said Larrabee hunted women. He was a psychopath before dying in prison in 2014. He was locked up on a total of 32 years on charges that ultimately included attempted murder, robbery and his sick specialty rape.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I don't think he was from here. I think he was from other places.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But all too often, Larrabee was released back on the streets. Mm hmm. And they said, and every time he was free, he would rape again. And he liked to laugh at women and humiliate them.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He's a great guy, this Ed Larrabee. So you have this guy who's a fucking raging psychopath living five fucking minutes away and saying he did it. Why would he admit to this out of the blue, out of the fucking blue?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, he came in to rape and was like, oh, wow. He even said I killed her with an axe. He even said that. I put an axe in her fucking head. Absolutely. So it's pretty goddamn gross here. There's a woman named Rachel Rear. She is Stephanie Kopchinski's stepsister. And she wrote a story called Catch the Sparrow, which is about this whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Stephanie was a 27 year old music teacher and violinist when he killed her, which is fucking crazy. In 1991, he was freshly paroled after serving a sentence for robbery. And he came back to this area and he got a job at the Newcastle apartment complex, which is where Stephanie lived. And he he later on said to the cops, too, well, they were stupid to hire me. Yeah. I wouldn't have hired me.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I guess. I don't know. I guess he likes the snow is all I can imagine. He wants to watch bricks be made back in the day. I'm not sure. So reviews of this town. Let's find out what we got here because we've never been here. What the hell do we know about this place? Here is one. Here's five stars. And this is basically a review of a shopping plaza. It has nothing to do with the town.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She went missing in July of 1991. Stephanie, her car was found at the airport a few days later. In 1998, seven years later, her skeletal remains were located along a creek in a remote area off Route 104 in the town of Murray in Orleans County.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Larrabee was always a suspect. He was a maintenance worker at the apartment complex where she lived. So that means he had keys to people's fucking apartments. He had served three stints in prison for rape, sexual abuse, and armed robbery. Why would you give this guy keys to everybody's apartment? What the fuck are you people? Wow.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That is the most irresponsible hire in the history of the fucking world. And he had just been released eight months before the death, before the murder.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They got him on fucking pervertedrapist.com, I believe that would be.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They got him on violentrapist.org. That's a .org, though.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I'd like to hire a rapist. Where do I find one? Now, the cops say Larrabee was just seeking to be moved to a hospital before his death. So that's why he said it. So it doesn't matter that he said he killed Kathy, even though all the other shit he said they found to be true. That one's not true, though. Sorry. Not going to do that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So James' lawyers, James Krause and ex-lawyers say, what about this asshole? Leave me the fuck alone. This guy's a fucking dickhead. In 1982, by the way, this is the other thing. He found out through the case files, his lawyer did, that in 1982, the Brighton police tried to question Larrabee about this murder because he lived five fucking minutes away and was a prime candidate for this.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But he refused to talk to them. So they just gave up and concentrated on Jim. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Crazy. They said that Larrabee said he couldn't remember if Kathy was in bed or out of bed when he struck her with the axe. And he said she was naked and also said she had brown hair. So they said, well, it couldn't have been you.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He got the murder. And he got the exact location of the house right, too. He said it's on this fucking street right here. Because he said he jogged that morning, as we'll talk about. He said he jogged in a ski mask and was just looking for places to break into and rape and steal. That's what it was.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they said that, you know, Krauseneck's lawyers are like, wouldn't 32 years of past time maybe muddle this guy's shit? Plus he's on a shitload of medication and ALS and all this shit. Wouldn't that be anything? So, no. They said no, not at all. Wow. The defense says that the Brighton police knew about Larrabee since 82 and did nothing to determine his whereabouts the morning of the murder.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I love it when people completely misunderstand the assignment and give you something that nobody wants.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That is fucking crazy. Now, 2014, Ed Larrabee dies, which is great.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But now, Ed said, by the way, he he fucking says tells everybody that he won't admit to anything he didn't do. He said, I don't want to be accused of shit I didn't do. I did. I did bad things. But don't fucking pin other people's bad things on me. That was a big thing for him. Ed wasn't the type of guy to say he did a murder he didn't do.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, yeah. For him. Well, I guess he had he claimed to have committed over a dozen homicides. Oh, in the letter he wrote to police, which seems that tracks.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's if you'll do if you'll do what you did with Stephanie, you'll do that a hundred times.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Absolutely. Yeah, that's that's how it works. So they said that the cop, one cop who got the letter said, I received so many letters from prison and have to be somewhat selective in what I decide to pursue. Well, I don't know. Open cases. Let's let's try those. So in response, I asked him for some proof.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He did not bite and accuse me of manipulation, but he wanted to set one record straight that he had no conscience. So this is not because I feel guilty.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. Also, any claims that police had been expert sleuths in solving the homicide should be discounted. He said that he confessed because he wanted something in return. He wanted to die in a hospital, not in prison. So he was confessing. Yeah, yeah. Larrabee wrote, quote, I am not I am what psychopath would psychiatrists call a sociopath.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's what he was there. Well, yeah, he was there for the Brighton Commons Plaza. I believe he's the founding member of it probably. Yeah. It says five stars shopping services and a great blend of dining. Brighton Commons Plaza is my favorite with easy parking.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I can assure you for better or worse that I am not burdened by more morality, ethics or remorse. And I certainly do not possess a conscience that needs to be cleansed. That's what he said. He said the cop said when I learned I learned I was going to die. I initiated contact offering cooperation of value. So he's saying, listen. I did all this. I did this shit. I'll tell you what I did.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
April 2015, the Krasanek case is reopened and the FBI gets involved. Now that Ed's dead. Ed Larrabee's dead and we can sweep that under the floor. So this is under direction of Chief Linebacker Mark Henderson here. FBI, can you help us, please? He did a thorough review of the case, including a travel to interview potential witnesses, persons with knowledge, suspects, all that shit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
In June of 2015, Chief Henderson attended a meeting of the FBI Buffalo Cold Case Group, which sounds like a terrible band. Everybody, we're the FBI Buffalo Cold Case Group. That sounds terrible. I wouldn't go watch that. Terrible bad. And presented Krause and Eck case to the group.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
After a Q&A period in which several ideas on how to proceed were discussed, the entire case file was given to the FBI to be digitized. So Chief Henderson contacted the Krasneck family to let them know that they reopened the case. So, yeah, the district attorney agreed to assist in the investigation. And the D.A. personally participated in selecting evidence to be sent to Quantico.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And she said, we're looking to see if there was an outside contributor, if we could justify or if we can identify a suspect. We needed to get the truth, so we're trying to test as many items as possible to see what we could learn. And then, you know, we would direct the investigation in that direction. Now, Yeah, I guess that makes sense. They won't.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about Noom. Has Noom helped you? I believe it has. Oh, it's got an app. You can do tracking. It's terrific. It does. Noom builds personal plans that can meet individual needs. That's the thing. Takes into account any dietary restrictions, medical issues, other personal needs. That helps build a plan that works for you.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But they're just now they can test things for like touch DNA and shit like that. It's a lot different. So anything they still have. But how many items are you still going to have on file?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I mean, Jesus Christ. So April of 2016, New York investigators pay Jim a visit, a surprise visit to his home in Gig Harbor, Washington. He now lives by the water. He's got a boat. He's doing great.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The merchants offer a variety of shopping options from gifts to upscale furniture and clothing, consignment and golf tech for year round lessons.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He's got it all. He put the shoes before the boat. It's like the cart before the horse. You don't want to put the shoes before the boat. But you know what? You put the shoes out there in the universe, a boat comes back to you. That's how it works, right?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. What if you get the boat and you don't have any shoes to wear on it?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
What are you, no hat next? Give me a fucking break. So one of the detectives asked Jim outright if he had something to do with his wife's death. Yeah. And he said no. And the cop said, I think you did. He goes, well, I didn't. I said I didn't. And they were like, they came to an impasse there. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I thought maybe if I just surprised him and asked him, he wouldn't have a chance to think about it and would just say, yeah, I did. I mean, no. Fuck. Jesus. Damn it. No. So that is pretty wild. So the FBI is involved still.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And the Brighton police chief, Mark Henderson, said the purpose of this review is to bring justice for a young mother, a young person that was murdered and to bring closure to the family. Yeah, that's his exact quote. So we by the way, he's probably still the chief. We got to stay the fuck away from this area because we were. This guy will have us arrested post-haste.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, we're staying away from Brighton. Far away from there, boy. So investigators re-interviewed everybody. They traveled to three different states, all this shit. One of the cops said, we're now in the phase where we're going to take the evidence and ship it to Quantico. So that's what they're doing here. And the FBI said we were able to provide analytical and forensic expertise to
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Well, he liked the year-round lesson. See, Frederick Douglass, everybody knows he had a long drive, but his short game was shit, and he really wanted to work on it. It was weak. It was terrible. Chipping. Oh, my God. You get that guy in a sand trap, fuck it. He's there all day. Give him 12 strokes and move on, because it's going to take a while. He's no good. He needed help. Terrible.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And like I said, the working group was formed to help police departments in cases like this. So, yeah, that's what they're doing. One of the guys investigating said, I'd say the last three and a half to four months, 100% of my time is dedicated to this. We're not wasting time here. We're making some good progress.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I think the public needs to know that, and I'm very optimistic as to what the outcome of this case is going to be. Yeah. 2017, Kathy's mom dies.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Her and her pierogies. She's buried in a pierogi casket. Goddamn. That's what it is. Actually, they just encased her in a pasta thing like a pierogi. She's the potato now. 2018. The authorities contact a pathologist to try to back up their claims. Great call, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, the thing is, there's been a lot of doctors and pathologists who's looked at this, including FBI doctors, pathologists from the Brighton Police Department at the time, who was a very well-respected pathologist. By the way, this wasn't some dipshit small-town person. Actually very well-respected. So it's been looked at a bunch of times.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But they need someone who will say what they want them to say.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And there's one guy who fits that description perfectly who will say anything you fucking pay him to say because he's a hack, complete fucking loser, hack, piece of shit, money hungry fucking scumbag. And that's Dr. Michael Bodden.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Love him. Yeah, you might know him from that stupid TV show he had.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, where he acted like he was very important and acted like he was acting for half of that fucking show, which is what annoyed me about it. This guy is a bought and paid for hack.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
In my opinion, I'll say, just to make it like that. But he is. So he used to be a respected guy who did good work. And then he just at one point said, well, fuck it. I need money.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
When he was a young New York City medical examiner, he confirmed the autopsies of men shot during the 71 Attica riot. He worked on the JFK assassination to look for- Well, no, they'll look for tracks of the wounds and shit like that. He worked on Martin Luther King also. So this is all stuff he was doing when he was a legitimate guy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Then later on, after he became a bought and paid for hack, I'm going to say post-TV probably did this to him when he really liked attention. In 2007, he testified on Phil Spector's behalf.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I don't know if you guys have seen anything about the Phil Spector case. We'll do a bonus episode on it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It is really obvious that he killed her.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Nope, two people in a room. One of them shot and killed. The other one comes out with a gun in their hand.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And the other person's spatter all over him. Okay, so pretty fucking cut and dry. Anyone who saw anything about that went, wow, I don't care how much money he has. He's going to prison for this. This is worse than OJ.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You've got blood spatter on your dominant arm. Yeah, magical mystery tore my fucking ass. I don't give a shit about this. This whole case is a magical mystery fucking tour. So he, during this Phil Spector case, Bodden, sought to provide an alternate explanation for blood on the victim's jacket.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
A spa, bridal salon, orthodontics, hair salon, dining, tailoring, and the best custard ever.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Okay. When asked by a prosecutor, this is what a hack he is. Number one, bullshit, A. He's just doing this for money. Number two, when the prosecutor, because he's testifying for the defense, obviously, when the prosecutor asked him if he had any conflicts of interest in this case, he said, quote, none that I can think of. Not one.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It was later revealed that his wife was one of Spector's main attorneys.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No, but you can, but you have to fucking disclose it. You have to give the jury that to weigh.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He doesn't because he's a fucking bought and paid for hack. You know who else he testified for?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now, that's fine if you were testifying for OJ. What he did, though, was total. I mean, I don't know how much he had to be paid for this because what I mean, this stretches the credulity of any human's imagination here. This is what a hack he is. He claimed first that Nicole Brown was still standing and conscious when her throat was slashed, which we know isn't true.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You know, she was knocked down first. The purpose of this claim was to dispute the theory that Brown was the intended target. Oh. Like she came out and just discovered it and got her throat slashed and she fell down rather than she was the initial point of the attack. She saw a fight and she wanted to break it up. Exactly.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
All righty. One of Rochester's most recognized original shopping plazas. Again, this is on niche.com for the town of fucking Brighton. It has nothing to do with this plaza.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The prosecution argued that Brown was murdered first and the intended target of the attack she was because the soles of her feet didn't have any blood on them despite the large amounts of blood at the crime scene and that she was unconscious when her throat was cut because she had very few defensive wounds. At the subsequent civil trial the following year, he then disowned that claim. Oh?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, that's what I mean. Whatever you pay him to say, even if he said the opposite last year, he'll be like, nope, this is true now. They paid me to say this. It's fucking crazy. He disowned the claim and admitted it was absurd to think that someone would stand still without their feet moving while their throat was being slashed and not fighting back.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But he had testified to that in open fucking court under oath, under oath. The year before. Also in the OJ case, in order to make it so the time of death for them was a little bit later to put OJ outside the window, he claimed that Ron Goldman had gotten his jugular vein slashed and severed and still fought the assailant for 10 minutes. Wow. Okay, I've been a bouncer. I've seen a lot of fights.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I have never in my life seen a street fight last 10 minutes.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They don't. A riot barely lasts that long. Two men fighting does not last 10 minutes.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And when there's other people around to stop it, too.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
10 minutes. Bleeding? Shooting blood out of your jugular. Wow. Fountain. That's pure, pure hackery because that just lines up with OJ's alibi. That's just bullshit. He just said, how long do we need? Yeah, you could fight for 10 minutes. That's it. Wow. That's complete hackery. Bodden claimed at the subsequent civil trial, he initially denied making that claim. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I'm telling you. I've never once been like, where can I get good custard?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Then was confronted with a video clip of him saying the exact fucking thing at trial. Oh, yeah? Well, and who's this saying this? Then he disowned it and said he must have misunderstood the question.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But the Goldman's attorney alleged that he said it because the defense paid him to do so, because that's who he is. He also alleged that Bodden knowingly gave false testimony because he knew that Ron Goldman's blood was found inside Simpson's Bronco, despite Goldman never having an opportunity to be in the car. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
After the trial, Bodden said testifying for Simpson was a mistake and his reputation and credibility never recovered and his clientele and his cult consulting practice all but vanished. Well, don't be a fucking hack then.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Never once happened. Didn't even know there was whole stores just dedicated to custard. Custard and Sons. I never even had any idea. uh four stars here uh you have it all you would need you do you have it all you would need the beautiful water's edge the lush green parks acres of apple orchards wildlife runs free the suburbs of rochester is just a majestic place to reside and now we know
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
yeah he does and he should yeah he spent his life lying not fucking so he should or not raping or whatever the fuck ron jeremy technicalities or some shit i don't know evidently he's an innocent man i don't know oh very innocent i'm not defending that man no no he just looks at this point
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
By the way, the jurors in the OJ case, several of them cited Dr. Bodden's testimony as one of the main reasons they said that they acquitted him.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, because he's supposed to be a respected guy. Wow. So that is ridiculous. Oh, by the way, he collected a $165,000 payment for that. Whoa. To go up and say that bullshit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
in the early, in the mid-1995. That's great money. That's a shitload of money, yeah. So that's who he is, Fodden. He also testified for, he took money from Jeffrey Epstein's family.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No, he's trying to say that Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself so the family can sue and make him money.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
If you pay him, he will say anything.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
No, I mean, that's conspiracy theory anyway. But that's just, you know, that anyone will say that. But he's contributing. Oh, he absolutely does. He'd be happy to as long as you give him some money. So October 2019, Dr. Bodden reports his quote. I'm going to use everything in quotes, his findings here.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Completely shot. So court papers in the Krasnick homicide note that the formula uses a formula of time of death uses a rate of one and a half degrees temperature decrease per hour from the time of the rectal temperature reading, recognizing there'll be variations such as ambient temperature and body mass. And they adjust for that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So the deputy Monroe County medical examiner, Dr. Evelyn Lewis, who, by the way, just died now, so she can't come defend her work because she just died. She conducted the 82 autopsy here. Kraus and ex-defense attorneys here, just attorneys, contend that the prosecutor should have told grand jurors the earlier times before.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Um, earlier time estimates did not like Dr. Bodden's narrow the timeframe of homicide to before six 30. Basically Dr. Bodden's the only pathologist on earth who looked at this and said, Oh, it was before six 30 AM. The only one he said could have been as early as nine 30, but I think it was between three 30 and six 30. That's his fucking thing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's what he said. He's the only one of that. Bodden also did not tell grand jurors of the differing conclusions. So they sat him up there and he just said, this is the time of death. And that was taken as fact. And a grand jury, you don't get to you don't get to present defense. So it's just the prosecution and they just put out what they want to put out to get an indictment.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Because if they if they would have brought all the other pathologists work in there, then the jury would have had to decide who was right. Whereas they didn't do that. Just brought one guy in there. He said on the stand that he appear he thinks it appears that Kathy died around three thirty a.m. So the prosecutors say, well, Jim was home at that point.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And in the report, he wrote that heat loss for Kathy Krasnick was likely one degree per hour because she was heavily clad and covered by a comforter and an electric blanket, which, by the way, we find out the electric blanket was not on the whole time.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, that's how it is. Yeah, it's fucking wow. So that's what he says. Now, then there's the neighbor of Kathy's saying she heard a moaning sound around 1 or 2 a.m., followed quickly by a dog barking, and they said, well, there you go. That's what it is.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Dr. Bodden wrote in his report, the timing of that report is consistent with Kathy's body temperature, the state of her rigor mortis, and her stomach contents, which is complete bullshit. If she was killed before that, she'd still have food in her stomach and her bladder wouldn't be full. That's the point. She was killed at 1 a.m. ? There's no way you're digesting 10 p.m. shrimp by 1 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It just doesn't happen. And she would have alcohol in her system still, so it's fucking ridiculous. So defense lawyers here for Jim challenge the differing formula of the time of death and say that Bond's misrepresenting the issue of her stomach contents, which can also formulate the time of death.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Bodden credited the work of Lewis, the original pathologist, then, quote, misrepresented her conclusions regarding the gastric contents of stomach as they relate to time of death. He just picked and choose words he wanted to use on the stand. The contents of her stomach indicated she was killed four to six hours after her last meal. Now, that's what he said.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The suburbs of Rochester is a- They've been keeping it a secret. Majestic.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now, while the original pathologist said her stomach contents were, quote, quite empty and devoid of any food, Bodden said in his report that a fluid found in her stomach was indicative of some remaining food, even though no one else had ever seen this before.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Wow. He said, so that means she was killed earlier. They also talked to the defense, talked about her full bladder and all that. And he said, doesn't matter. Okay. November 2019, after it goes to grand jury, Jim is indicted and arrested. Is that right? Yes, they arrest and indict him, by the way around. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The Brighton police chief at this point, a different guy, David Cathaldi, said, we believe in examining the timeline of events, speaking with witnesses.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Got a new guy. James Krause's next timeline that he provided along with all the other evidence will establish that James was home at the time of the murder. That should just say Dr. Bodden says this. We have nothing else because that's all it is.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You know, like Alaska or something. It's majestic. Okay. Then two stars. Finally, this is amazing. Two stars. The people here seem friendly on the outside, but a lot of them will insult you or talk bad about you behind your back. That's the whole review.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
We trust him. He doesn't even, does he? I don't think he does.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I've never watched that shit because he looked like a fucking tool. He just looked like such a douchebag standing there. That picture of him over the table that they drain people on, that douchebag pose that he has.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You know, if they put any work into this, they want some credit. They say that forensics and DNA analysis played a key role in James's arrest and subsequent charges. There is no DNA analysis. None of that. That's completely untrue. None of that comes up. They don't have any evidence of DNA or any evidence that it's him whatsoever. Matter of fact, both axe handles had not a speck of DNA on them.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The one at the door and the one used in her head. Neither of them had anything. That is fucking crazy. So the FBI special assistant says, I hope this case serves a couple of purposes. One, it's a step toward closure for the victim's family. And two, just as importantly, because the years go by, just because years go by doesn't mean you can stop looking over your shoulder. We're coming for you.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
We're going to hire a hack doctor and make some shit up on this particular case. So pre-trial here, the district attorney insists that she has absolutely no doubt that Jim killed Kathy that day. Really? Wow. That's incredible because I have a lot of doubts. No doubt. Defense attorney said there's really no evidence that Jim killed his wife.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Another attorney said that his client is nothing but innocent. Mr. Krasnick has been cooperative, as I said, from the time this incident occurred. Even during court, he came into court on his own and was nothing but respectful. And we look forward to addressing these allegations in court. So he is set for trial June 2nd, 2020. That didn't happen, obviously. Nope. That got delayed. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they never got to do that. COVID delays the trial until 2021. That's a while. Yeah. And in the meantime, Netflix made a movie, quote, based on this story that is not at all based on this story at all. Here is the description of the movie from Netflix. An artist relocates to the Hudson Valley. This is nowhere near the Hudson Valley.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I live in the Hudson Valley. Yeah, this is the Ohio Valley. It's closer to the Ohio Valley than the fucking Hudson Valley.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
and begins to suspect that her marriage has a sinister darkness, one that rivals her new home's history.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, they went up with that angle of the curse of a home. And it has 2.6 stars on IMDb, so it's not very good.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Shit talking, backstabbing sons of bitches in this town.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That is crazy. So now Kathy's father, who, by the way, is 93 years old at this point. The guy that loves shoes, hates bare feet. Guy that hates bare feet. He says he plans to travel from Michigan to Rochester to see this trial.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Doesn't care how old he is.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yep. He says, I won't miss a day of it. He says, I'm going to go hell or high water. I want to see him with the cuffs on.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I don't know. Come either bad scenario, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Or fire that dries all the water up, one or the other. So 2022 is the trial for Jim, which is crazy because it's 40 years later.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
There they are eating their custard, looking all happy. Judging the shit out of you. You know what's behind that, though. You know what's behind that custard grin. Custard eating grin. You custard eating bastards. Bright and full of custard eating motherfuckers.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And they're going by one guy's fucking estimate of time of death. That's the only evidence they have. To me, 40 years, unless you have a DNA strong piece of evidence or Sarah comes forward and says, okay, fine, I saw my dad kill my mom. I don't want to hear about it anymore. You don't have anything. This is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Sarah is there, by the way, fully supporting him and sitting behind him, walking in with him. So they court found no prejudice that Ed Larrabee is unable to justify or testify for the defense because the defense said, we got a guy saying he fucking did it and he's not available to testify.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They said the evidence at the hearing showed that in 2014, Larrabee was aware of his illness, was aware it was terminal and was making confessions to anyone in law enforcement that would listen in order to gain concessions of a burial outside the prison and other concessions such as a tombstone.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Investigators were told by the New York State Police that Larrabee was even confessing to murdering persons that were known to still be living. Although he made at least one legitimate confession in the opinion of authorities, the case of Stephanie Kopchinsky.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They said that perhaps they said that this case had this case been brought in 82 or 86 or at any time before Larrabee became terminally ill. He would have appeared and they don't think he would have appeared in court and confessed. Well, no, because he's why the fuck we confess that. Right. Jesus Christ. So, yeah, they said they're going to do that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The defense also argues that the significant delay in this whole thing, you know, 40 years and all, has prejudiced his client's ability to defend himself against the charges because everybody that can witness on his behalf testify for him is dead. Yeah. The pathologist, the original cops, Ed Larrabee, anybody who could possibly help him is dead.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they said you kind of just you waited out till all the witnesses on the other side are dead and then you can charge the guy. That's not right. So they point out that the original pathologist, pathologist, Dr. Evelyn Lewis, passed away in 2018. Also, two of his co-workers who gave statements to police saying he was perfectly normal that day and totally fine. They're dead, too.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And that he needed those people to go. I don't know. He seemed fine at 7 a.m. So which is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. He'd have to be an amazing actor to go from being fine all day to then coming home and being trembly and crying. And you'd have to be a great actor. And he seems like a dork. He doesn't seem like an actor, but who knows? The defense argued that the original pathologist testimony would completely undercut Dr. Bodden's reliance on her autopsy findings as to stomach contents.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Also, they cite police interviews with now deceased Eastman Kodak co-workers stating that Jim acted perfectly normal during the day of February 19th, 1982, when they met with him. They also point out that the Brighton Police Department Sergeant Edward O. Grodnick,
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's what it is. So speaking of eating. I was looking up places to eat here, just looking for reviews of stuff, and I found Joe's Brooklyn Pizza in Brighton.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
passed away in 2011 he could have testified to the observation as found in his police report that the electric blanket over Kathleen was in the off position so that completely ruins Dr. Bond's thing because he said the electric blanket is the main reason why he said that she was the time of death was different okay
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now, the defense also cites a death of investigator, Tom Schrader, who passed away in 2005. The defense contends that he could have shed light on the Brighton investigation of Ed Larrabee, a person the defense asserts was a likely suspect and should have been more thoroughly investigated.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The defendant of the offense also cites the death of former Brighton police chief Eugene Shaw at the time of the murder. He met with investigator Schrader after Schrader's attempt to interview at Larrabee in 1982.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Also, the death of Larrabee himself and of Dr. David Barry, whom the defense alleges administered chemical castration drugs to Larrabee as a condition of his probation at the time of the murder. So they're saying. At that point, he couldn't have raped because he had chemical castration. That's why we know he did it and he couldn't have raped her even if he wanted to.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah. They also said that the sergeant could have testified that he found the blanket in the off position. The people have agreed to stipulate to this information, which reduces any prejudice toward the defendant, the judge said. But you're going to have stipulation or a person saying it. It's different. The person saying it is more.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They said the state contends that despite a vigorous and thorough investigation, prosecutors harbored sincere concern that there was a lack of quality physical evidence connecting the defendant to the crime. The people argue that the prosecution did in fact exercise good faith in their decision to defer the prosecution for 40 years.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The people argue the court should evaluate the decision to defer prosecution based on the information available when the decision was made that investigators in the 80s had absolutely no reason to believe that deferring the prosecution and keeping the case open as a cold case would not result in the discovery of new evidence.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So I found this. This place has 3.7 stars, which is not wonderful. It's not doing great. Not great. And just a couple of these I have to read because they're goddamn hilarious, so you need to check them out here to maybe avoid this spot. Marie gives one star, and this is a great review. Disgusting older man that makes pizza and burps and passes gas while making pizza. Three exclamation points.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they're basically they're saying we couldn't have made this case in 1983. We couldn't have made this case until Dr. Bodden wanted to buy a summer home. That's when we can do this case when he really is trying to feather his nest egg.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous. So they said, though, the they found no significant. The FBI found no significant evidence of any third party being in the house forensically. OK, so that means that even though they didn't find any evidence that James did do it, the lack of evidence that anybody else did, it means he must have had to. Well, Jim's expert disagrees with Dr. Bond, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So this is Dr. Catherine Maloney, a deputy chief medical examiner of Erie County, did some past autopsies of Kathy and Bond's report and looked at all of that. She wrote in a February letter to defense lawyers that there are no new scientific findings that would make
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
dr bodden's determinations accurate as opposed to the 1982 conclusions she looked over all the tests and said i see what you did and i see what you did and that the 1982 autopsy unlike dr bodden's report and grand jury testimony conforms to generally accepted principles of forensic pathology not some shit he made up basically general ones yeah That's pretty crazy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they're saying that by him lying to her then, that's evidence. But then the 1982 phone records show that the call was placed at 11.21 p.m., not 10 p.m. when she said. So she went to bed right on time. Right on time. They said that is exactly when your sister goes to bed, isn't it? She said, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Also, former colleagues from Kodak, that's hard to say, colleagues from Kodak, said that Krauseneck told the grand jury that Krauseneck had acted agitated and more weird when she, on February 19th, 1982, offered him tickets for the Shrine Circus the next day. This testimony contradicted what she told the Brighton police in 1982. She changed her story.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
At the time, she said he didn't act unusual at all. Forty years later, when they're telling her, look, this guy's guilty, she goes, yeah, he acted weird that day.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Fucking crazy. So the lawyers for them, for everybody here, they're fighting it out here. One of his attorneys, Jim's attorney, said their burdens to demonstrate that there was due cause to wait 37 years to bring this indictment. Krasinec's attorneys have asked for a singer hearing at which they'll argue. Do you have to do it in a very melodic voice? That's the thing. It's wild.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
You got to do it. You got to you got to see if there's no evidence, no new evidence that justifies the delay in the murder charge. The Supreme Court, the letter to a Supreme Court justice said, I'm not sure that you've had a case like this. They also bring in an expert shoe witness.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He testifies that the footprint found inside the trash bag was from a boat shoe. And they said that could it be from this pair we have in this picture? By the way, don't show the tread at all. Completely smooth under there. We don't know. And he said, yes, sure. It could be. We don't know if it is, but it could be. The shoes were not tested to see if they were a match back in the day, though.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Farts and burps while making pizza.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Which tells me they thought it was probably Ed Larrabee, I think. And then they were like, well, we can't get him. So, wow. Evidence said the killer wore a boat shoe type of footwear, as did James Krausenack. And police claims that the killer would not have worn such a shoe on a snowy, wintry day.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Time of death also, again, there was a memo pad discovered in 1986 that said the medical examiner had indicated two potential times of death, between 6.55 and 8.55 and then 6.30 to 9.30, which obviously contradicts with the… Yeah, ruins everything.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So they said revisiting the case with new technology, the Brighton Police Department came to the opinion the killings happened before 630. It's not new technology. It's Dr. Bodden pulling shit out of his ass.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I don't know. Completely disgusting and unprofessional.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Then on one of the days of the trial, jurors hear from numerous members of the Brighton Police Department, including an investigator named Richard Corrigan, who found a pamphlet for a local marriage and family counselor in James's vehicle. So they're saying the marriage was in trouble, and that's why he did this.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now, the defense team said that proves nothing at all. They said that it was found in the car buried in shit in the back seat. It could be anything, yeah. And they said it could have been a pamphlet distributed on his car. When they first moved there while the house was closing, they were staying in motels. He could just be a good guy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Under windshield wipers of fucking people staying at motels in 1982.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Exactly. That's where people go.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, you eat pizza three times a fucking day and see if you don't get a little gassy. That guy might have had a calzone for lunch. He could have just three pounds of cheese in his gut. And then Mike, one star. I'm just going to read the first fucking line of this. Gentleman who answers the phone on Saturdays around 6 p.m. is a scumbag. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, who knows? That's what I mean. It could have been anything. There was no evidence that they ever called a marriage counselor. They called the people on that thing. No one ever contacted them. They never went for any appointments. Never told any of their friends. Kathy never told her sister or other friends that they were having problems. None of that shit.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They found a pamphlet and said the marriage was in trouble. He's fucked. Never mind all the evidence. We have this. So a neighbor who lived near them, Eileen Marin, said that she saw James come to her door that evening drained of color. The defense argues that's a strong piece of evidence to claim that he came home and learned that his wife had been murdered.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They also bring up testimony from another neighbor and this is, to me, everything, testified to seeing a suspicious and unusual jogger in the area that morning around 7.25 a.m. as she was leaving for work. She said the jogger was, this is crazy, not known to her and wearing a ski mask and running at an extremely slow pace. Never seen him. Stalking. Stalking, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Crazy. And that's what he said he was doing that morning at Larrabee was pretending to jog. That's what happened. So, wow. That's crazy. So I don't even know how the hell you can. I mean, if you put these two people in front of you and said, which one do you think did this? Ed Larrabee or Jim Krasinak. Holy shit. I'm probably picking Ed 99 and a half times out of 100. Yeah, that's part of it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Then they put Dr. Bodden on there and he tells his bullshit. And he says that, you know, his final diagnosis is severe chopping injuries to the head and brain. Thanks, Doc. Thanks a lot. He said it takes at least 12 hours after death to reach the level of rigor that she was in. And in his opinion, that would mean that Kathy died somewhere between 9 p.m. and 3 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Now he's going all the way back to 9 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's the Jim window, yeah. The prosecutor said that means that she died before James went to work, according to his opinion. And he says it's important to have someone with Bodden's level of experience on the stand to take the case. You've all seen him on TV, haven't you?
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They said to us, it's very important. He's obviously renowned. You hear the cases he worked on. He was hired by the U.S. government to examine JFK and MLK Jr. So just some of the things you've done, he's done. You can't match that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
I would be like, can I introduce this OJ shit then? Just credit this fucking idiot.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Saying that he testifies and then denies that he testified to that in the next fucking case.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So in the closing arguments, the defense challenges Dr. Bodden's determination, suggesting that the best perspective on the time of death was the original medical examiner. They argued Dr. Lewis had the best perspective to determine the time of death, the best to make the facts, but interpretation is another matter, Dr. Bodden said in his response.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So the facts are all there, yes, but it's all how you interpret them. Right. The lawyer then said his opinion is substantially different than Dr. Lewis's. His testimony pivots on body temperature. If you take body temperature out, his position is completely unfounded. It's by no means an exact science. I think Dr. Bodden was clear on that. But Dr. Bodden, in his experience, is familiar.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
This is the the prosecutor said in his experience is familiar with how those factors blankets individuals health affect body temperature. No one else is, though. Just him. He's the only guy. So the prosecutor or the defense attorney said that the fact that Dr. Lewis, the original doctor, is not alive.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They said, we think it's a fatal challenge because if the prosecution proceeded with this in a timely manner. Dr. Lewis would be here to defend her autopsy, which is evidently defendable. And they waited for 40 years. She's dead now. She can't defend it. Then they bring Dr. Bodden in from out of town. Yeah. And they're going to do the small town fear thing.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And, yes, I know that you've had your own personalized program here that you've been working on.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Here he comes from New York City coming in here trying to tell us small town folk how to act. Yeah, this guy's been to Brooklyn, you guys. He's been to Brooklyn. People. People. It's a big deal. He went to a Knicks game once. Think about that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, man. He said, goes on to say, fingerprints were not on the axe, the maul, the point of entry. DNA from the axe excludes James and Sarah. We can't really nail that down.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He says that it's written in the context, it was written in the context that he was dying, meaning Ed Larrabee's confession, about to face his enemy, and there are some things in the statement that are wrong, but some are consistent. The notion he wipes down the axe with a bath towel, that's one of the things he said he did. Wow. He was wiped down the axe handle with a bath towel.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
The prosecution says, very simply, if the jury believes Dr. Bodden's testimony, which we believe he's a very credible witness, then that means James Krause and that killed his wife on that day. They said the only reasonable conclusion is that James K. went to his garage, grabbed the axe hat that he had used over and over to chop wood, walked up his stairs and killed Kathy while she slept.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Did he burp and fart while he was on the phone with you? Is that possible? Could you spell it through the phone? This is mainly because they put you on hold without saying anything. They just say, hold, please. Yes, if you call a pizza place on a busy Friday night, they go, yeah, hold, hold, hold, and they're getting, you know.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He made it look like someone came in. Then he went to work.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's it. They said, you've heard some officers, they were saying the burglary appeared contrived. A gold necklace hanging on the door, cash on the dresser. What kind of a burglar doesn't take things that are sitting out in the open? That's kind of not committing a burglary.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's a good point, too. But again, that doesn't make Jim have any more evidence against him is the problem. So the verdict comes in here, and obviously he comes in. The judge explains to them there's no probably guilty, there's no maybe guilty, just guilty or not guilty. They find him guilty of second-degree murder.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He might have done it. Don't get me wrong.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
But it doesn't seem like it at this point. So sentencing, Sarah speaks during sentencing. And she says, this poor fucking Sarah. I can't say poor girl. She's like 45 years old at this point. But still, it sucks. It's awful. She said, my mother's killer got away with her murder. My father's life has been taken by a failed justice system that convicted him of a crime he did not commit. Mm-hmm.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
And then Kathy's dad testifies during the sentencing. He says, and Jim, I hope you live to be 100 years old and enjoy your new home, jail. Hope you get no shoes. Hope you get nothing. No boat shoes for you. Hope you're on a boat with fucking combat boots on. See how you like that. So Sharon, this is Jim's wife, said that, you know, you got to you know, this is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Justice isn't being served and all that kind of thing. And Sarah said the justice system failed my parents, myself, both sides of my family. It's also failed this community.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
jim got up he read a note in which he it's a long note he said he reaffirmed his love for kathy said i love my wife and i you know she was everything to me and i i would never hurt her and he said in closing i did not murder kathy i love kathy with all my heart and my soul okay well that's all and the jury said you sir may fuck off 25 years to life what the fuck Yeah, that's wow.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So Kathy's parents now, they say the Schlosser family said they've had no communication with Sarah for years until today. Not at all. This is now. Yeah, this is Antoinette here. She said, I told her when I walked in, I said, Sarah, I love you no matter what happens. And she said, thank you. And now we pray that Sarah will come back to us and be a part of us because she has no family now.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
She's been brainwashed for 40 years. I don't think that's going to come together too soon. And then she said this, Annette, how horrible she must feel right now. But let's give her some time and we'll be in touch with her. Yeah. So he is sent to Clinton, which is real horrible. Dan Amora is Clinton.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
It's a really bad place. It's known as little Siberia in New York prison system because it's cold in the middle of fucking nowhere. Hard for people to visit. Um, yeah, it's all, that's crazy shit. They also say the prison walls and watchtowers loom over the main street of the village, which exists only because of the prison. That's one of those towns. Um,
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That's how a lot of towns started out in New York like that, like Ossining started out just because Sing Sing was there and then it became a big suburb. So that is fucking wild. Then the prosecutor said, I can't imagine a place, a place more unlike Krauseneck's home in sunny Arizona because he's got a house down there.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Anything. They don't even know what you're there for.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
He is not used to that life. He got up there. He was in that shit life for a year and he died.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Yeah, it's one thing if people are in prison for 40 years, but when you haven't had a normal life and then you go to prison in your late 60s, that's not great. You're 70 years old. So, yeah, he dies at 71. He was barely in there two years.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So the thing about this is for Jim, I mean, it doesn't help him any because he spent his last days in prison. But according to what I like to call the Aaron Hernandez rule, the fact that his appeal was in process of the time of this means that he's now technically innocent. This vacates the conviction.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They don't know if you're a telemarketer. They have no goddamn idea. You're just on hold. Population in this town, 36,986. Good-sized town, yeah. Decent-sized town. It's suburbs here. Almost 52% women here in this town, so that's high, higher than the average. Median age is just above the average. It's 39.3, so that's just above the national average. It's about 50-50 married.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
If you die while your appeal for that crime you're in prison for is still in the midst, it wipes out the conviction. Just like Aaron Hernandez, this guy's technically innocent. That's terrific. His conviction was erased and his indictment dismissed because he had a pending appeal.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Interesting. The Monroe County District Attorney's Office supported this while Kraus and ex-family wanted the appeal to continue after his death. They said, no, no, no. We want this to play out in court that he's fucking innocent, not that you just say it. And the one guy said, quote, Jim Krasinec is now technically after death managed to escape conviction. His family isn't happy with that.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
They wanted a real review of the case. Interesting. Appellate judges declined it, too. They said, meanwhile, the question of whether the conviction would withstand an appellate challenge has gone unheard and unanswered. appellate judges declined to hear the appeal, deciding that New York precedent firmly establishes the posthumous dismissal without further litigation. Like, he's fucking dead.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
We're not wasting money on this. Done. Now, the House itself is a... Considered a three-bedroom, three-bath now. I don't know what they changed it. I'm not sure. 2,057 square feet. It's at 33 Del Rio Drive in technically Rochester because that's the same thing. Sold in 2023 for $372,000. Not even that much. Yeah. Not even that much, actually.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
That'll screw everything up, yeah. Maybe that's what they did, remodel after a murder.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Made a bigger master bedroom, not one of the bad. Yeah, that makes sense, probably. That's what people do, so it's more sellable. That is Brighton, New York, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Don't go. You'll be framed for murder. You could be framed for murder or have to watch a man fart while he makes pizza. One of the two. It's not good either way.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Oh, God. Do not bring boat shoes to this town. You'll be in cuffs before you fucking know it. So there you go. This is one of the shows we did for a live show this year. Yeah, that's right. And it was a lot of fun to do live. And we hope you guys enjoyed it. I put more detail in. I found a lot more stuff. The live show, we don't have two hours and 40 minutes to do it.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
So you guys would be asleep at two hours and 40 minutes. So at a live show, it's weird. It'd be like 11 o'clock at night and be like, Jesus Christ, I got up for work today. So, you know, that's good. So we do it now and can add some extra detail, some extra context to it. Hope you enjoyed it and hope you enjoyed the live shows this year.
Small Town Murder
#557 - Suburban Ax Murder Mystery - Brighton, New York
Thank you so much for coming out to those live shows and seeing us. Speaking of that, I would like to read off a list of live shows. First of all, if you like the show and you want other people to know about that, please, and we beg you, please, tell the world about it. Get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars and help us out a lot. Head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He had been playing video games in another room, and he said he didn't hear anything. He doesn't know. He came out looking for his mom, and she was face down. So he called 911. He doesn't know what the hell happened. Holy crap. The normal routine is Karen will come over with her son to take care of Bonnie. They have a spare bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The son will go in the spare bedroom and play video games while his mom works.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, 2012 on PS4 and knock yourself out. So this kid is crying saying, I didn't hear anything. I don't know what happened. Right. He doesn't have blood on him or anything like that. He's not a suspect at this point. There's no sign of a struggle here either. There's a broken fingernail on her right hand, but they don't know if that was there before. It's just one fingernail.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So they didn't know what the hell was going on here. So they thought maybe Karen had a heart attack and dropped dead. And Bonnie didn't know what to do, so she just wandered off because she's confused and old.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, maybe they're on the property. So they said there's plenty of space for that to happen. So they look all over. They live on a big pecan orchard. Yeah. The cops spread out. They get ATVs to go out into the fields to look for because it's pecan trees. So you can't just look out and see it.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Rocket Money found it and saved me lots of money since then because it's been a while. So they did a great job here. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending. and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
If it was, you know, some short crop, you can just look out and see if she's standing there. But it's not that. So you have to really go explore and see. They go everywhere. Local firefighters, deputies. They get a bloodhound named JJ from the state prison. All hands on deck, basically, that they have there. A helicopter was dispatched from Waco to Circle. They had heat imaging cameras.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I mean, they were looking for fucking bodies. We have an 85-year-old lady lost. And she's not in great health. So they don't know how long she can last out there on her own in the elements. Who knows? So they do everything. They go all over the place. There's high bank along the river bank. There's high grass. They search through there. They search all along Tommy Lee Jones' fence line.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Poor Tommy. Tommy Lee lives next door. Well, he doesn't live next door, but his property is there. He's got his horses all grazing on the other side.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Tommy Lee doesn't live there. I know for a fact he doesn't live there. No, it's just his property. Yeah. Okay. He doesn't live there. They say that he doesn't live there, like in the thing. It's just one of his properties.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Well, we'll talk all about it. We got stats here. So they said that maybe Bonnie had tripped in the orchard and fallen into the river possibly. Oh, my God. Kind of the property backs up to a river. So they're like maybe she did that. They don't know. But the bloodhound –
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
followed her trail down the driveway almost to the road and then stopped so they were like okay that looks like getting into a vehicle in the driveway is what that looks like yeah and then taken off so what the fuck is going on let's talk all about it here all right as of 2012 the harky pecan farms we'll talk about because that's the thing here
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
It's a two-story farmhouse, and it's 3799 West US Highway 190 is the address. This family's been here a long time, and we'll talk about it. Tommy Lee Jones has a huge cattle ranch property next door. He doesn't do pecans. They have about a 300-acre pecan farm, though, the Harkey family. And then Tommy Lee's got an even bigger property, way bigger property next door. Oh, it's huge.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And he wants their property as well.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yes, he's trying to buy their property. A lot of people think he doesn't give a shit about pecans, but good water rights come with that property. Sure, sure. And in Texas, water rights are a big fucking deal. Exactly, yeah. So that's a big deal.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
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Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Apparently, Sansaba produces up to five million pounds a year of pecans, claims to be the pecan capital of the world, which Chandler, Oklahoma and Albany, Georgia, would like to have a fucking talk with them about because they say bullshit. We are the number one. Now, a little bit of Harky history. They're one of the first families to settle into the area before pecans were even an industry.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Absolutely. Riley and Israel Harky, two brothers from Arkansas, drove the first wagon train into the county while serving as Indian scouts for the Republic of Texas. I can't... Oh, boy.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I can't even go through that sentence and pick out all the things that are so outdated and old-timey it's not even funny. Wagon train, Indian scouts, Republic of Texas, it's all right there for you. That's incredible. They liked it there, and then they ended up returning in 1855 with their parents and six other siblings. They were like, we got to go to this place, man.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They got good soil there and shit. So the Harkey brothers founded Harkeyville. Which we talked about as a population of 12, but in its prime, it had a general store, a cotton mill, a blacksmith shop, a millinery, a racetrack, all sorts of shit. Now there's only 12 people. Now there's 12 people. It had a baseball diamond. You can't even get a game going now. No kidding.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
You're six people short of a game at this point. So that's crazy. The Great Depression shuttered most of the town, and that's kind of how it went, basically. Like a lot of these small towns, the Depression wiped them out. Sure. Wiped them out. People went to where the work was. So that was that. That's what you got to do. So Riley is described as a man with a long, bushy goatee and a square head.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Sounds hot, dude. That's a very handsome man right there.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He bought the initial 113.9 acre tract for a farm there in 1885. And then his grandson and eventual heir, Olga Brian Harkey, they named their boy Olga. That's tough. He was born in 1898 here as well. So there was already native pecan trees on the property. Oh, and yeah, apparently they were considered especially good trees in this area here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah. But that wasn't even for business. That was just like a hobby. He was dicking around. Turkeys were his business.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Absolutely. In 1932, the newspaper said they have been breeding for perfection and believe now they have a strain that gives turkeydom about everything that is to be desired in a turkey. Turkeydom. All of turkeydom.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So 1957, O.B., he has one child and his name's Riley. So they get together with O.B., Riley, who was 32 at that point, together with Riley's two sons, 10-year-old John, 5-year-old Bruce, planted another 1,500 trees in the grove that came to be known as Harkiville Orchard. And the farms matured and they started making a really nice living off of these pecans.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Doing really well. Now, Riley, we'll talk about. Riley is Olga Bryan's son. Riley had a lot of, you know, very good work ethic. Obviously, he's planting 1,500 trees. He gets his five-year-old out there to help me plant trees. That's decent work ethic. He ends up meeting a woman named Bonnie Sawyer Compton. And that's how Bonnie comes into the equation here. They were introduced in 1963.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
rocketmoney.com slash smalltownmurder. Now back to the show.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She was working as a telephone operator in Waco. She was divorced and had a 14-year-old daughter of her own named Connie. So Bonnie and Connie. Okay. Connie and Bonnie, and now Riley, as we know, has two kids of his own as well, Bruce and John. So we're going to have some step situations here. Bonnie grew up in a farming family during the Depression, so that tells you a lot. She had a tough life.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She's a hardened gal. Yeah, her father was a corn, cotton, and wheat farmer. And, yeah, her sister, Wilma, Bonnie's sister, said it bothered Bonnie that we didn't have any money growing up. She never said anything about it, but I could tell by the way she acted. you know, grabbing her stomach and hunger and shit like that. I could tell she was pissed.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And she looked at her ragged clothes that were falling off her body from where, you know, Jesus Christ. Riley's wife, Joan, had walked out on him and the boys. So that's why he ended up with Bonnie. Joan took off. She packed up the station wagon and took off for Nevada. Fuck you people. I'm out of here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Keep them. Yeah, I don't give a shit. Keep them. So Bonnie and Riley get married at Waco's Highland Baptist Church. A month after his divorce was finalized, Bonnie quit her job at the phone company, and she and her 14-year-old Connie moved into the Harkey house on the farm. How about that? So that's how Bonnie ended up here. And Bonnie really...
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
immersed herself in the town life she made friends she joined clubs she um one of her friends said if there was a club in town she belonged to it all about it she was a big baptist by the way um she did all of that um she was a huge reader of better homes and gardens that was her jam she kept all of her back issues stacked neat stacked neatly in the laundry room
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
No, no, no. Those are her collector's items. Just a guy saw an article in 1956 about how to do that garden better. I'm going to go get it. Wow. Interesting.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Wow. I could use flower sacks to make a dress. Yeah, not bad. So they also, she kind of helped fix up the house a little bit here. They added an extra bedroom. They built a sun porch that seats up to 27 people. That's a big fucking porch. It's a huge porch. Eventually, the home would reach 4,872 square feet. Nice. So doing great here. The marriage, not so great, Bonnie and Riley.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, one of her friends, or this is her sister, Bonnie's sister, said he often criticized her. When she'd tell a story, he'd interrupt and say, no, that's not the way it goes. They didn't care. She's a bad storyteller. Is he a dick or is she a bad storyteller? Some people are bad storytellers.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
When you hook up with somebody, one of the things you have to figure out is... Can we tell a story? Can we tell a story together?
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's the other thing. Can one of these people tell the story? And that's a very important deal, and I feel I don't know if they did that here or not. The sister said they didn't care if they were in public or not. Riley would tell her something wasn't right, and she would say it is, and they'd get into a big fuss over it. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So it wasn't even just like, oh, you know, she'd be like, it is too. And then they'd argue for 20 minutes in front of people. Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Also, none of the kids like each other, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The step kids. Yeah. The boys don't like Connie. Connie doesn't like the boys and the boys don't like Bonnie either. And yeah, Connie doesn't like Riley. So that's how it is. Apparently they were John and Bruce were especially mean to Bonnie. From what people said here. Yeah, this is Bonnie's sister said they would laugh at her and criticize her food.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They take a mouthful of food and spit it out or they talk about her and giggle all the time and act rude. They had not been trained to be nice boys. What the fuck? Someone cooks your food. You fucking eat it. Don't spit it out. You little scumbag. Wrong with you.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
My grandmother would have beat the shit out of me if I did that.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Her food? She would have fucking smacked the crap out of me.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, no waste food. So they said Riley didn't discipline them. At all either. So that didn't help either. So Bonnie's relatives stopped coming out to visit for holiday dinners because of the boys. That's how bad it was. Yeah. Bonnie's niece said, I think part of their attitude goes back to being a harky. They thought the whole county should still revolve around them. Riley trained his sons.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He told them that as harkies they were special.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
We're the good people in town. We're the special people. We were here first and we have land and all that kind of shit. Now, Bruce is just looking forward to the day when he can take over the orchards. He sees that as his birthright, at least a third of the orchards.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're, like, back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So he expected that at some point when his father was starting to get older, he would hand over the operations to him just like his father's father did for him.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Because O.B. gave him the pecan farming deal before O.B. died. So O.B. could tell that Bruce, by the way, Bruce's name is Bruce Wayne Harkey. Is that right? Absolutely. And apparently he was named after Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne, yeah. Yeah, it wasn't an accident. Yeah, his dad liked Batman. So apparently he saw Bonnie as an obstacle of like, no, I got to deal with this fucking lady, too.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He said that, you know, she didn't like them and she thought that. So he was worried basically that she was going to edge him out of this farm somehow.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He liked to tell a lot of people that she made her feelings clear one afternoon when the family was in her new Thunderbird. And he said, I was in the back seat and I leaned forward and said, so do we call you mom now or what? What do we do? This was right after the wedding, and he said, I still have the scar where my brother kicked me, but all she did was laugh. She never responded.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Like I could ever birth you losers. No, I don't think so. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about one of our favorites, SimpliSafe. Oh, SimpliSafe.com. S-I-M-P-L-I-S-A-F-E.com. That's absolutely correct. And if you're anything like us, the most important thing for you is probably protecting your family from harm. Right?
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
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Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
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Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Visit simplisafe.com slash small to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com slash small. S-I-M-P-L-I safe.com slash small. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Now back to the show. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our stylish friends at Quince. That's right.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
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Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
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Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Jimmy's got his linen pants he's rocking.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
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Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, his brother was like, shut the fuck up, because he was five, his brother was ten. Five-year-old's like, do I call you mom? Ten-year-old's like, don't fucking ask her that. We're not calling her mom.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Man. So Bruce claims that Bonnie issued an ultimatum to Riley saying, get rid of that kid or I'm going back to Waco and leaving you.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you all for joining us on another insane edition of Small Town Murder Express. This is an absolutely crazy episode. I don't know how. This is one of those episodes where I'm going, how does he cram this into an hour? Because this is a lot of crazy.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So John packed up to go to college in 1965 to go to Texas Tech University, and Connie enrolled there a couple years later. By the way, she was Sansaba's homecoming queen.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Old Connie. Now Bruce ends up going back and forth to live with his mother in Nevada and all this type of shit. This is such a small town. When he was 14 and he went to live with his mother, there was an article in the News and Star newspaper with the headline, Bruce Goes West.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
he's five bruce is getting out of town you guys a seven-year-old is going to live with his mom in nevada for a while do we have a reporter that can get to the scene dateline sansava like what the fuck are we talking about someone's getting out y'all He's going. He returned to San Saba for high school, moved in with his grandparents in town rather than live with Bonnie and Riley.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So he did a lot of extracurricular activities. He was pretty popular, popular with the ladies. He met a girl named Judy Bishop and knocked her up. They got married in August 1969, her and Bruce, and they move into an apartment, and Bruce works at a Texaco station. That's how that goes. Doing great. She ends up giving birth to a 7-pound, 2-ounce boy named Eric Harkey, Bruce's son.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He's got some health problems, though. They learn that his epiglottis was not fully formed.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Which meant that after feedings, he had to be held or laid on his stomach so that he wouldn't choke when he spit up. Oh, no. It's fucking... That's hardcore. So at one point, Bonnie invited them, the family, the three of them, Bruce's new wife and their young baby, to stay out on the farm for several days. But things went bad. On April 15th, 1970, Bruce was in class going to college.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He sat in English class. And apparently... The baby stopped breathing. Bonnie took him to the hospital, but by the time she got there, the baby was dead. The cause of death was aspiration asphyxiation, so they didn't have her laid down. 14 days old, by the way. Poor baby.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
No, no, no, because she choked on it. It's not just a stoppage. That was his condition that caused that. I guess Bonnie didn't pay close enough attention to him or something, is what Bruce thinks. Yeah. It's a lot here. He's going to already be divorced from his wife here very quickly by January of the next year. They're divorced.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He ends up marrying his high school sweetheart at that point named Jennifer Carnes. But that only lasted three months and she moved back to where she was living at the time. He dropped out of college, drove trucks in California. Yeah. did some odd jobs, and then ended up finding work. He went to the Reno Police Department, Sheriff's Department, in 1978 to be a police officer. Yeah, he's junior.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, he's definitely junior, this guy. He got married and divorced two more times, had a daughter. God damn. Two more times for now.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And we are going to, boy, is this going to be a hot hour. Quickly, before we start now, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Tickets are on sale. Right now, for all of 2025, our newest date was announced. That is Madison, Wisconsin, and it's almost sold out already. So if you want tickets, get them. In a day, you guys, it's just about sold out.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Bruce will have a total of eight wives. Eight wives. By the time he is 58 years old, he will have eight fucking wives. Eight. Oh, my. That is a lot. Eight is enough. That's his show. When they put that show on the air, he's like, I pitched this idea. Bullshit.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Holy shit. That is fucking crazy. So, yes, he ends up moving back to Texas. And in 1987, he got a job in the Texas Attorney General's office investigating Medicaid fraud and nursing home abuse.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Which is pretty ironic considering what ends up happening here. So, Bonnie and Riley end up... Connie ended up, after college, got married, and they adopted an eight-month-old in 1984. And that baby they called Carl. So his name is Carl Presley, P-R-S-S-L-E-Y. And Bonnie loved this kid because it was her daughter's kid, even though it was an adopted kid, but whatever.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So Riley here, remember Bruce's dad here, he purchased a third pecan grove in 1991, 94 acres, and he willed that to Connie. And then the other two groves go to John and Bruce. So everybody gets a grove is the way it works here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah. John went and settled outside Fort Worth and had some kids, and that's what he was doing. Now, Riley ends up, we'll talk about dying coming up here pretty soon. And, you know, that kind of fucks everything up here. So he, by the way, Bruce, we'll go back to him. Bruce is mad at Bonnie because of his son dying for years. He holds a grudge.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Even in the 90s, 25 years later, he still says, Bonnie killed my son.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Real strong, yeah. He ends up becoming a nursing home administrator in 1994 while he's on wife number seven. Yeah. 1996, after his 44th birthday, he married his eighth wife, a 20-year-old. That's going to work. After seven marriages worth of experience, you didn't whittle it down.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
You didn't whittle it down to what would work and what wouldn't work, you know what I mean? You think, well, blondes, I'm not good with blondes. Okay, none of them anymore. All right, that's wife number two, four, and six. Can't have them. Okay, what about, just go down the list of shit.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
What a fucking dude. That is crazy, man. That is crazy. Uh, her name is Cammie Jones. Um, now apparently Riley at this point, Bruce is saying, why don't you start stepping down Riley 1996 and let me run the farm. And Bruce is saying, no, he would say, and so he would get mad. Cammie said, Bruce would say stuff like, well, quote, well, they just need to die so I can have the farm.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So Riley does die in 1997.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He said, thank you. That is good advice here. So Bonnie, though, takes over everything. The three orchards bring in over $100,000 a year in pecan money. So she's sitting pretty. She's doing fine. She stays in the house. And that's that, basically. That December, she won second place for her pie and cookie entries in the San Saba County Pecan Food Show.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Columbus on February 8th, sold out, it looks like at this point. We might release another 10 tickets that they keep for us, but I mean, that's it. Pittsburgh, not sold out. Pittsburgh, February 7th. Get your asses to Pittsburgh. Let's go. Can't go to Columbus, so go to Pittsburgh. Let's do this. We're very excited for it. And the rest of the dates. Check them all out.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Look at that. Now Bruce starts to really spin out. Apparently, his marriage with Cammy, he grew very controlling after this. Oh, she's 20? She's 20. She gave birth to their daughter in 1998. And he would then, after that, he was awful to Cammy, apparently. He would choke her, pull her hair, hold a gun to her head, things like that. What? Fun stuff. Threatening to kill her.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Basically, one time she didn't have dinner on the table by 6 o'clock, which was his rule, and he threatened to kill her for it. So that was nice. So when their daughter was four, Cammy walked out on him. And so what he did is he's a nursing home administrator. He's all pissed off. He told a coworker at the nursing home that he was thinking about how to kill Cammy. How do I do this?
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He gave the coworker three guns, two old Chinese military rifles, and a semi-automatic .22, asking him to, can you scrape these serial numbers off? Is that possible?
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
You got any of that? Then he talked about, this is funny, he had an idea. He goes, I think I know how to do it one day. This is how I'm going to kill her. I'm going to put poison on her steering wheel. Oh. And then she'll hold it and it'll seep into her body and she'll die. So the co-worker and Bruce's boss were so freaked out by this that they told the fucking police. Good, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And a Texas Ranger and an ATF agent began to record Bruce's conversations now. They set up a sting operation where an informant provided Bruce with an illegal silencer and federal agents arrested him, charging him with possession of firearm in connection with a crime of violence. He pleaded guilty to a lesser charge and all of that kind of thing. His lawyer tried to say it was just all talk.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And you gave someone guns and said, can you get the serial numbers off of these? That's a lot more than talk.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The judge said, you, sir, may fuck off. Five years in federal prison for you. He was released in 2007 and returned to San Saba. He had to have an address at this point for parole and shit. So he sent a letter to Bonnie saying, please let me live on the farm. Bonnie said that after she talked it over with her pastor, she agreed.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I think the pastor probably told her, hey, that's your stepson, and this whole Christian thing, we're supposed to be nice to people and shit, so you should probably let him stay here, I would assume. Oh, boy. So anyway, Bruce moves into an upstairs bedroom where his ex-wife, one of Jennifer Carnes. Remember her? Yeah. She moves back in with him. Yeah. They get back together.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They fixed they fixed up a little apartment in the on the property there and did all that shit. So now we can't find work, though, because he is a convicted felon and everyone around town knows he wanted to have his wife killed. So that doesn't work.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Shut up and give me murder.com. Also, you should listen to our other two shows, Crime and Sports, and Your Stupid Opinions, obviously. But let's say you've listened to all of it and you need more. Have you? We have so much more for you, and that is Patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash crime in sports. That is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, they said that at that point the orchards were starting to kind of fall apart a little bit. Yeah, Jennifer said that the orchards were in such horrible condition because Bonnie and Connie didn't know how to run a farm or what to do with pecan trees. So, yeah, that's how that worked.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I guess as a favor to their friend's son here, they hired him to clean out their barn, but it was a short-term deal. One afternoon, this guy showed up at the Oliver Pecan Company an hour before closing, time to ask for a job. This is Bruce showing up. And they said, quote, he just had a meltdown. He stayed for about two hours and cried. This is an hour before closing.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So these people had to stay past the end of their shift to listen to a stranger cry.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The guy there said he told me I'm the brokest millionaire in San Saba County because he had the property he couldn't touch. He also filed for bankruptcy in 1998 to discharge $176,256 worth of debts and owed more than $100,000 in back child support to Kami. $100,000.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Wow. A former Texas Ranger who knew him said if you asked him what time it was, he'd tell you how to build a watch. One of those guys. He said, there's no secrets around here. And if there is a secret, someone will make up a story to fill in the gaps. The Harkies had that reputation that there was always some trouble brewing after Riley died.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I guess with any big estate worth any kind of value, you got a bunch of people involved. There's going to be fuss. They love fuss here. They replaced the word fighting with fuss. Everybody's fussing. Everybody's fussing about. Now, Carl. Let's talk about Carl here. Remember Carl? Connie's adopted son. Yeah. Bruce began to hang out with Carl more around this time.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Carl's in his 20s. Carl developed two loves as an adult. Motorcycles and methamphetamine, the two Ms. The big Ms. right there. Those are his two big ones.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yep. This article describes him at 24 years old as having the meth has worn his bottom teeth down to little yellow stubs. How old? 24.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Bonnie spoiled him fucking rotten. Basically, he's been living with Bonnie for a while now. Connie and he would stay here while Connie did something else. She bought him a truck when he ruined it. He said he wanted to raise boar goats. So she bought him a flock of them and goats. Shit like that. Like just whatever he wants. Yeah. She's the apple of his eye. I mean, she had a daughter.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She didn't have any sons. This is a son. Uh, he dropped out of high school after the 11th grade and went to work in the oil fields. Then he married a local woman in 2003 when he was 19. They had a daughter and a son. They separated. Carl started dating Lillian King. We had another daughter with in 2008. Oh yeah. Yeah. He's going to keep having kids.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Three kids, no teeth, and a pocket full of meth.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
But a sweet motorcycle. It's sweet.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
No, fuck no. He's like, oh, man, they look crunchy. He also has got a pretty good criminal record, too. He was charged to include trespassing, domestic violence. In 2005, the domestic violence isn't for a woman, by the way. In 2005, he allegedly tried to run his stepfather over with a tractor, which is a very small-town murder kind of crime right there. That's wild.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
First of all, you're going to subscribe. You're going to get a monstrous hundreds of episodes deep collection of bonus stuff that you've never heard before. then you're going to get new stuff every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder, and you get it all this week. We're going to talk about for crime and sports. We have a, an NFL player who just finished up a murder trial.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He also realized that pecans are worth a lot of money.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He said, you know, a truck full of nuts is worth a lot of money. So he started stealing pecans from the barn. One guy said Carl would show up with a pickup full of pecans and we bought them. We didn't know he stole them.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Carl's such a fuck-up, he's banned from the First Baptist Church.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The church is like, come here to get redemption and all this type of shit. Except you, asshole. You fuck everything up when you come here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Shit, no. Apparently he showed up at Bible study on a Wednesday one time to demand money from Bonnie. And the pastor said if he was coming to worship and study, that was fine, but we didn't want that anger. Another time, Bonnie refused to buy him a new set of tires, so he blocked her car with his truck and refused to let her leave the house.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Essentially kidnapped his step-grandma or his grandmother here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Oh, my God. But she kept giving him money. Her niece said the more we tried to convince her to get away from him, the more she would say it was not the Christian thing to do. But he was bleeding her dry. 2011, Connie, Bonnie's daughter, Carl's mom, dies of pneumonia. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She was 62, I think, or something like that. 2012, the Harky Bunch. Here they are. Bonnie, 85 years old. The pecan queen of the county, as she's known. The matriarch. She's got white, puffy hair. She looks like, if you said, draw me a picture of a little old Baptist lady in Texas, you would draw her. Little old lady, white curly hair.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, yeah. She's away from tweeting. Exactly, yeah. She's got a pie cooling on the windowsill, one of those things.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Oh, yeah. She's in Garden Club and goes to all the Sunday school and everything like that. But she's also suffering from dementia, and she was diagnosed with an aortic aneurysm. Oh. So she's on her way out. She's 85. Not well. And not well good health at all. She's on her way out. She declined a lot. She still lived on the home, though, and everything.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
But Bruce said that she couldn't recognize him or his wife when they visited about her in 2012. Bruce said, we knew that Bonnie was in horrible physical and mental condition. but she was also lucid about some things. Her daughter Connie had her driver's license revoked, had Bonnie's driver's license revoked, so Bonnie wrote a letter to the Texas Department of Public Safety to contest it.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So we'll talk about him, Travis Rudolph. Then for small town murder, we're going to finish up this West Memphis three kind of origin story of how, how we got to the point of needing a documentary team to come down there and talk about this and how it just got to the point of having those three kids there and deciding on them. So we'll talk,
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She said, She wrote that. That's interesting. Her friend, Betty Ann, who would stop by to fucking see her all the time, said, every time I went, she said, please do not let them take my home away from me, Betty Ann. I want to stay here as long as I can.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Then you got Bruce, the son, who's got a murder-for-hire plot that happened already, former police officer and Texas Attorney General's Office investigator and ex-husband of eight women.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Totally. Absolutely. Annette King is Bruce's common law wife at this point. A new one in here now. We have Carl Wade Presley. He's the grandson. He's about 27 at this point. And the one that she's been given all this fucking money to and all that kind of thing. No teeth in his head. Yeah. Totally not. A lot of jail stints, by the way, for Carl.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Besides the tractor incident, he also went to jail for harassment of his uncle, driving with an invalid license and violating probation by threatening his mother.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's what they are. Yes, that's kind of what they are, except not as rich. Yeah. Bruce said, Carl ran through money like water. She's the only woman who ever nurtured, ever cared for him, provided for him, gave him everything in the world that he ever wanted. And yeah, Lillian King is his girlfriend. She's 24. Tommy Lee Jones lives next door. That's the cast of characters at this point.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So Bruce and John, the brothers, Briley's kids, Bonnie's stepkids, they saw their inheritance and they started wrangling over the property. In 2011, the brothers had persuaded Carl to sell them his future rights to the orchard that his mother had for $75,000, even though the property was valued at $500,000. Well, those are meth prices. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's what a meth person would do. It's a $500,000 orchard. I'll give it to you, 75 grand. What do you say? Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a very cool place, Thrive Market. Yes, we are both looking to get into the healthy swing this year.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
all about that and more patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show too on wednesday sure gotta love it so thank you so much for doing that everybody that has that said let's get right into this okay i think it's time here to sit back what do you say everybody let's all clear the lungs here and uh arms to the sky let's all shout
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The problem is I don't know what's in everything, and I don't know if even I'm qualified to even read the labels to know if that's good or that's bad. There's chemicals and things, and there's things floating around. I don't know what I'm doing out there. One of my favorite features, and I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, it's simple. You scan any item and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding these safe, healthy foods. For example, like I'm trying to get my protein intake up. for energy. I'm always moving around. I need stuff. And I love that you can filter their site by the high protein options.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
It's very cool. And you can personalize this portion and you can put filters on it and get ready. You should be ready for a junk free start to 2025. Get ready for it and head to thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash smalltownmurder, thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January, it's a whole new slate. Clean. You bet. It is blank pages all the way around. Absolutely. And maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here. A little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
fade away by February by the you know right after New Year's think of therapy as an editorial partner there you go it's a good way to put it helping you write new chapters and creating the story of your life that you should have that you want to have that's what it's all about the one you deserve and we can't say enough about therapy
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
We all have problems and we all have issues and none of us are above. None of us have the right answer all the time. Exactly.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash SmallTownMurder.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about a big-time hero that we've just encountered. I'm a bread enthusiast. And with Hero Bread, you can focus on these health goals that you have, that we all have, trying to get ourselves better and still indulge in the luscious, wonderful, soft... Mmm, just so good. The fluffy goodness of bread that you love.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
But guilt-free with the Hero Bread. That's the thing. You like enjoying a nutritious breakfast wrap, avocado toast, grilled cheese, maybe with some soup on a cold, rainy day. Maybe a family burger night. Well, their products are delicious and flavorful. And they have ultra low net carbs, zero grams of sugar, and are high in fiber. They're pretty delicious. I really like the Hawaiian rolls.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They're good. Yeah. I got the Hawaiian rolls.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They're so, they're like, they still feel like buttery and stuff.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Oh, God, yeah. These are good for you. They're not bad at all. And the texture. This is the thing. I'm a nut with bread texture. I don't like different textures, but they have a really nice, good bread texture. It's delicious. Hero Bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use the code smalltownmurder at checkout. That's the code smalltownmurder at h-e-r-o.co.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That is fucking funny. Now, Bruce was broke. So Carl didn't see any of that money until a little bit later when another sale was approved of a field that they had and all this type of shit. But the most of all, their neighbor, Tommy Lee Jones, wants their property. He bought his property in 1981 and had amassed a five thousand fifty acre ranch.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Oh, hey. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Where are we going? We are going to Texas this week. Yeah? San Saba, Texas.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Tommy Lee just adds on to it.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Every movie he just adds on to it. You're like, why is he in all these shit movies? That's why he's like, this is my happy face. They're like, why is he doing that? This is why.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I'll do it. I'll do it. More property.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So, yeah, he's doing all this type of shit. He's trying to buy these properties here. John and Bruce reached out to him, and after some negotiation through an intermediary, Tommy Lee Jones put down an offer of $541,822.50 on the offer. Okay. The brothers accepted. Contract was drawn up. But Bonnie still lives there.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's the problem. So Bonnie's lawyer looked over the deal and found the terms were not beneficial to her at all and said, you can't do this.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So Bonnie was pissed off at this point, and Bruce is mad at her, and everybody's all goddamn pissed off here. So, yeah. Yeah. So they decide, look, we got to get this money. We're going to get this money and we can't get it as long as she's alive. We're going to sit here and wait and watch her wither away.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So instead, Bruce goes to Carl and says, tell you what, Carl, I'll give you five hundred dollars, five hundred big ones to, quote, make her gone this weekend. Then, after she's dead, I'll give you $55,000. So a down payment of $500,000 followed by $55,000.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's it. So Bonnie woke up. She ate breakfast. Karen, who brought along a young son. This is March 25, 2012, the day this all happened here. Brought along her young son. She drove Bonnie to church in Bonnie's gold Chevy Malibu. After Sunday school, they attended the 1030 service, sitting in the sixth row, listening to the pastor. It was deal. Afterward, they went home.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Bonnie changed out of her Sunday clothes and Karen's son went in to play in the bedroom. And Bonnie sat in her maroon recliner to watch television and read magazines like she normally did. Not bad. So then you get the 911 call. Everybody goes. They find Karen Johnson. Nobody. No. Now, after reconstructing Bonnie's movements that morning, the search team had no fucking idea where she was.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They looked for her. I told you. They didn't know if she fell in a river, if she's in the pecan fields. So one of the sheriffs said, someone's got to go back to the office to be near the phones in case someone calls. Literally, everyone was out.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
S-A-N-S-A-B-A. Two separate words. Two words. Two separate words. Now, it's actually in Harkiville, which Harkiville doesn't – it's got a population of about 12 right now.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Everybody. The phones are ringing off the fucking hook at the police station. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
It's fucking crazy. There's food deliveries going. No one's getting them. So about 8.30 p.m. that night, a call comes in, and it's Lillian King's mother. That is Carl's girlfriend's mother.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She knew that her daughter and Carl had been out at the Harkey house that afternoon and had asked a friend to contact the sheriff when she learned that Karen was dead. She said, I know things are crazy right now, but I might have some information about where Bonnie Harkey is. I'm 99 percent sure that Carl Presley is involved. That's what she said.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So they spent the next few hours, the cops do, trying to find Carl and Lillian and also requesting a silver alert for Bonnie and a statewide APB on Carl's Mustang. So finally, at two in the morning. They call Carl's cell phone all night. Finally, at 2 in the morning, he answers. Oh? He and Lillian were in Normandie, which is four hours east of San Saba, staying at a campground.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So they told him, get your ass back here immediately. Karen's dead. Bonnie's missing. Let's go.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Lillian said Carl started crying at this point, but they weren't real tears. So they get to the station. They're separated immediately. And Carl said that, yeah, I did. I took Bonnie for a drive in her car. He said we went to the San Saba River, and that's what happened. So we just hung out. And then, I don't know, I brought her home, and I don't know where she wandered off to.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
You know, she likes the river down there. She was going swimming. So she likes to fight the current. It's good for her. It's good cardio. So then Lillian in the other room just breaks down and says, it was eating me alive. I just couldn't do it anymore. What? So they separate them, obviously. Yeah. And they...
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
sat in the sally port of the jail which is where the cop cars are are where they could use a patrol cars dash cam to record the interrogation because they don't have a fucking interrogation room with a camera in it in 2012 dude in 2012 they don't have a fucking interrogation room with a camera
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And you'll find out that's named after this family we're going to talk about. But San Saba is the main area here. That's just kind of a little tiny – spec in there. This is in central Texas. It's about three hours and 20 minutes to Dallas, about two hours to Austin. So middle of goddamn nowhere is the best way to describe this.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And he said, we don't have the budget of big cities. So he had to use the same thing we use to record traffic stops to record a capital homicide confession.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So they're trying to lock Carl into a story. And he said, yeah, me and Lillian went out there and he said that he's just bullshitting basically through it. He's saying that. Yeah. Now he says, I took because they said your girlfriend said you took her. And he said, yeah, I did take my grandmother out of the house to protect her from some tough guys. I know I owed money to. They were mad at me.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I'm trying to protect her. He said, I picked her up in the evening. Look, I am on drugs, obviously. Drives her to a Rainey's Crossing and drops her off in the bushes, he says. I said, stay here in the bushes and hang out. They said, no, that's probably not true. So he said, okay, yeah, that's not true. You're right. I took Bonnie back to my trailer in Normandy.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And he said, yeah, I really miss my grandmother. And they were like, well, isn't she at your trailer in Normandy? What the fuck are you talking about? And that's weird. And so that all goes on. Finally, about two hours later, he says, fine. And he says, quote, she ain't going to forgive me. No, he says. And the sergeant says, your grandmother's forgiven you for everything else.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Why wouldn't she forgive you for this? Just tell us. So finally, he said, OK, fine. Lillian dropped me off at the house while Bonnie was at church. I climbed through a window and hid downstairs and smoked meth while I waited for her to return.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Okay. When Bonnie and Karen get home, he texted Lillian, who was to come back and ring the doorbell, serving as a distraction while he tiptoed into Bonnie's bedroom. This is a meth plan. He planned to smother Bonnie with a pillow at nap time. He was going to hide in the closet until she went to sleep, then pop out and fucking smother her with a pillow.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
OK. So that was the plan. And then he was going to sneak out. But he said Karen spotted him as she answered the door. She answered the door for Lillian and he was going to run in the bedroom. But she it's a fucking. I don't know. She thought that he thought Karen was blind and deaf also or also 85. But she's a 50 year old lady. It was fine.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Totally. So apparently that was the problem. Karen spotted him. He said he panicked and tackled her in a bear hug and threw her to the floor where he suffocated her beneath his body weight. He just smushed her until she couldn't breathe anymore and died, this poor lady.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
A meth addict. Holy shit. Lillian, meanwhile, kept Bonnie occupied in the living room away from all this with conversation and the TV. They're having a nice chat. Oh, you went where? Oh, that's nice. While he's suffocating a woman.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
About an hour and a half to Stephenville, Texas, which is our last Texas episode. Episode 515, Against the Wind. If you want Bob Seger references, that is your episode. That's full of it. Let me tell you, I don't remember what it was, why exactly, but man, this guy was, he must have reminded us of Bob Seger. Population here, 3,121 in San Sabas, so not a big place at all either.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Carl then went to find Bonnie and asked if they could pray together in her bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
on your bedroom and pray together can't pray out here obviously god's only in your bedroom so how baptist is she very she agreed they said her bible sits on a doily on her coffee table like it's a special thing yeah she agreed they sat together at the foot of the bed and prayed and then carl lunged toward her with a pillow he said he stopped short of smothering her when he thought he heard the doorbell ringing
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Then Bonnie called out to Lillian that Carl's trying to kill me.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And then Carl somehow convinced Bonnie that, no, no, no, no, I wasn't trying to kill you. I was helping and convinced her of it because she's an old lady with dementia. Then he said, we should all go for a drive. Come on, let's go for a drive. It's a nice day. Okay. So they all got into Carl's car. He insisted that Lillian drive because his license had been revoked, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They went for the campground in Normandy, I don't know which one it is, where a friend from his motorcycle club had loaned him an RV. He said, but by the time they arrived, it was evening, and Carl told Bonnie that he wanted to show her a real nice fishing hole, like all 85-year-old ladies care about. So she said, oh, okay, sure, dear, because she's a nice old lady and it's her grandson. Fuck.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yep. They walked to a nearby ravine and down the embankment to a small stream where he hit her over the head with a dead tree branch. This is a fucking 85-year-old lady. And pushed her face. The water's only ankle deep. He pushed her face into it until she stopped struggling. He fucking drowned her in ankle deep, shitty brown water.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Then he covered her up with leaves and mud by the handful and left.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Left her there. Yeah. So they said, who else is involved? And he said, Lily. And they said, who else? And then he thought for a moment and looked down. And then he said, Bruce wanted me to get rid of her and take care of her. He put money in my bank account. According to Carl, Bruce had come to see him on Friday to propose a deal. Get rid of Bonnie this weekend. I'll pay you.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I'm going to be out of town. I don't want nothing to do with it. Don't tell anyone I had anything to do with it. Bruce gave him $100. $100, that's all I need.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
$100 cash with the promise of depositing $350 more in his bank account on Monday after it's done. And then he said, of course, we'll give you all that later. He initially offered $500, but Carl offered to do it for $50 less, knowing that Bruce was kind of broke.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The cop later said Carl has not been accused of being very intelligent, which I can tell you that right now. I don't know if it's the meth or what. It's fucking crazy. He said that all Bruce ever talked about was Bonnie killed my son. She needs to suffer the way my son did. Bruce told me. Wow, that is fucking wild. I don't even know what to say about that.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So according to Carl, he approached another potential man about killing Bonnie. But the guy wanted 10 grand for it. So he's like, never mind. I'll just have Carl do it.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Bruce told him, you know, I tried to get a guy to do it. But, you know, hit men are expensive. You're a meth that you'll do it.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Man, so yeah, when they searched for Bonnie, they found her. He led them to the body. They found her curled up in the fetal position and buried under a thick layer of leaves and mud caked into her white hair. Autopsy reveals, we'll find out, but she'd been hit over the head and drowned in shallow water, just like he said. He was honest with that.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The preliminary autopsy said she died of a combination of homicidal violence comprising blunt force head injuries and probable asphyxia, including drowning. Water was found in her lungs, indicating she was still breathing when she was put under the water. Wow. Yeah. Carl's friend here said that he got a message, phone message from Carl about his grandmother's death.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Median household income here, 39,583 a year, which the rest of the country, it's about 69,000, so that is nowhere near that. Jesus. And the median home price here kind of matches that, though. It's low. Median home price, $156,400 is the median. So that is low compared to the rest of the country. Motto here, the pecan capital of the world.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And he said he was, this guy said, I was trying to help Carl rebuild his life and all this type of shit. I got him into a trailer home. I got job interviews lined up for him. I gave him gas money. He said, quote, I feel like I got stabbed in the back. At least you didn't get drowned in a shallow creek. It's better than that.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So a few hours after Carl's confession, Bruce gets news that the investigation knows about him. So he called the sheriff himself. And he said, Sheriff Brown, he said, Alan, I just got a phone call from my wife saying she just got a phone call about you coming to arrest me, my brother and her. I said, for what? And they said, yeah, you're going to get arrested, stupid. And he was arrested.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And he said, I didn't do it. He said, first of all, I wouldn't hire Forrest Gump to commit murder. That's what Carl said. He calls Carl Forrest Gump. You know what I'm saying? He said, second of all, if I thought somebody needed killing that bad, I'd take care of it myself.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Not hire fucking Forrest Gump to do it. But then they talked to all sorts of people. Basically, everyone in town said, oh, yeah, I heard him say, I just wish the old bitch was dead. I wish that old bitch would die already. Another one said, quote, I told him that I could just get the money and go to Belize. Let's go to South America now. It's wild here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So he had an alibi because he knows to make an alibi for himself. He was outside of Fort Worth at a friend's house when all this was going down on purpose. Yeah, he said, I'm going out of town. So anyway, by the time, within 72 hours of the murder here, Bruce is in jail, Carl's in jail, and so is Carl's Lillian there. So, Lillian, and she goes by Annette sometimes, I don't know why.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So they're all, I don't know if it's her middle name, who knows. They're all sent to different county jails. I guess Jennifer, Bruce's wife, was never arrested, and John, they were looking into him, the other brother, but he died of a heart attack three months later, so they just said, well, fuck it, I guess. No.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Oh, my God. So, yeah, maybe that was it. Yeah, my brother killed my mother. That's crazy. So I guess the family owns about 200 acres, they said, and they didn't know who will control the property at this point. It's one of those things. That's all up in the air. So Bruce goes to trial. They say this was all about greed. May go down a list.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He believed that Bonnie was responsible for his son's death, resented Bonnie and referred to her using insults and expletives, told people he wished she would die. A few days before the murder, King's mother overheard, this is Annette's, Lillian's mother, overheard Carl tell another person on the phone that Carl needed $100.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She also overheard another conversation in which Carl said he needed $250 if the other person, quote, wanted something done. Yeah, Harkey told several people he was going to be out of town that weekend, emphasizing in an unusual way that he was going to be gone all weekend.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I won't be back till Monday. Like, on Sunday, I'll be gone the whole day. Like, not coming back till the next day.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Cell phone records show that Carl called Bruce twice the day of the murders. Bruce told an investigator that he could have killed Bonnie himself if he wanted to and specifically mentioned he could have pushed her off a riverbank or put a pillow over her face. It's like, I could do that. He goes down for the investigators. I could have killed her this way, that way. Yeah, it's a lot here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And they said they had also evidence that Harkey had previously tried to have Bonnie killed as well. Testimony that Harkey had solicited two people to kill a sheriff, a justice of the peace, two lawyers, and two of his ex-wives, too. These are all the different murders he's plotted.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Apparently so, or pecan. Listen, we're going to say pecan, pecan a hundred times this episode. I know that it's about 50-50. It's pecan or pecan or pecan.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I'll kill all y'all. So in exchange for a lighter sentence, Carl and Lillian testify against Bruce.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They also hear from two inmates from where Bruce is housed in jail, including one member of the Aryan Brotherhood who claimed that Bruce tried to hire them from jail to kill both Carl and fucking Lillian.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Wow. One of Bruce's attorneys in the closing said that there's no evidence that links him to the killings at all. Nothing. He said, so what if those two testified that they were hired? That's bullshit. The verdict, the jury took an hour to reach the verdict of fucking guilty for Bruce.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
couldn't be more guilty uh one of the cops said quote he was he genuinely thought he was fixing to get a not guilty verdict genuinely thought and when the jury read it out his mouth dropped open and his shoulders dropped he was floored getting fucked too yeah getting fucked speaking of floored you sir may fuck off life without parole for bruce
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Welcome to Texas for he's lucky to get the fucking death penalty for that shit. So the it's a lot. Carl and Lillian, on the other hand, they're going to get sentenced here. Carl, you, sir, may fuck off. You might not know where you are because you're a little student, but that's OK. Life without parole. Same shit. Same shit. So no lighter sentence there.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They just said we'll take the death penalty off the table. At her hearing, Lillian here sobbed uncontrollably. The sheriff handed her a cup of water and said, you're making out better than anyone else in this by far.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
You, ma'am, may fuck off. 45 years in prison.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's silver lining. She's eligible for parole in 2034, I believe. Fuck. That's amazing. And then outside the courtroom, a witness who watched the whole trial and knows all these people said, they said, what do you have to say about this? You know all the participants. You watched the whole trial and sum it up for us.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And he said, well, we're just trying to figure out who Tommy Lee Jones plays in the movie if he doesn't play himself. Oh, God.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's amazing. Bruce is housed at the James V. Allred unit in Wichita Falls, Texas. Carl and Bruce in prison, by the way. Holy shit. It's fucking funny. Carl said Bruce could con you into any doing anything he wanted you to do. He said, I thought Bruce was my best friend, but he don't care about anybody but himself.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's right. He said when then the author reached out to Bruce and Bruce said, the real story is of greed, corruption, love, hate, lies and violence. And I'm the only one left alive that knows the truth. Oh, that's right. He said, was I enamored or happy about Bonnie Harkey? No, I never did like her, never did get along with her. But that didn't mean that I was responsible for her murder.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They have like pecan, but then other people say pecan. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She's the closest thing to a mother that I've ever had. That's what she said. Yeah, I would say so. Carl said, quote, or no, Bruce said, how is it if I'm the mastermind that I established an alibi before I planned the crime? Exactly. That's what you did.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Totally. He then said, I didn't have anything to do with the death of Bonnie Harkey or Ms. Johnson. Nothing. If I waste my time and energy hating the people I've claimed I did, I'm taking away time for my loving wife and children. Which one? Which of your eight wives? And I won't do that. All I want to do is get cleared up and go home.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
I don't know. I'm allergic to them and I don't care. I can't eat them. I love them. God damn. I don't know if I love them because they make my mouth swell up and I can't breathe.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Holy shit. So that's fucking amazing. Carl's legal wife, by the way, who he wasn't living with just like three wives ago, Melissa Pafford and their two children. They move into the house. Into the pecan house? The pecan house, yeah, apparently. They said it appears the orchards would be divided up among them and the heirs. At this point, if you look up the house, it is like a one-acre property.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
It's separated from the farms now.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
They had people, I guess, farming the property that had a lease. Their lease ran out, and that was that. That's how it goes. The author said, quote, that they drove up to the house to look at it and said, as I got out to read the inscription, the property's owner, a mustachioed 74-year-old named Larry Hibbler, wrote up to me on an ATV. He said, this was all harky before, the whole area.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He said he said his son had built the house where the Harky blacksmith shop once stood. And they said you could still find racing horseshoes if you dug in the dirt. This guy said, but I'm the mayor of Harkyville now. And he looked around and said there are there aren't any Harky's left. All gone. They did a city confidential on this, by the way, called San Saba's Deadly Harvest.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So there you go, everybody. We're running late. I'm going to run through the end real fucking quick. That's a crazy goddamn story. That's what I was trying to say. That's a lot to cram into an express. It's a lot. A huge piece of shit. And Forrest Gump's a murderer. So there we go. Unbelievable. Very interesting. Check out ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. February 7th. We are in Pittsburgh.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Get those tickets now. Next night in Columbus is sold out, guys. So get your tickets right there. Also, certainly get tickets for Madison, which just was released that date if you want to go because that show is almost sold out already. It's been up for sale for a day. So get in there right now and get those tickets for the rest of the year. Definitely ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. All the bonus episodes you want. Hell yeah. Five dollars a month gets you hundreds of back episodes of bonus shit. New ones every other week. This week for Crime and Sports, football player finishing up a murder trial. Part two of West Memphis three. How the fuck did we end up here? We'll get to that. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
No, I've always hated pecans. And I go, oh, yeah, because I'm allergic to them. That's why I didn't like them because they make me not be able to breathe and stuff. A little bit of history here. A little bit. We'll go very quickly here. In 1931, a rancher named W.H. Uncle Billy Gibbons, which I believe he's an original ZZ Top member. Very original ZZ Top member. Uncle Billy Gibbons over here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Follow at Small Town Murder on Instagram. Small Town Pod on Facebook. Shut up and give me murder.com is the website. Keep coming back and seeing us. Until next week, everybody. It's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
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Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He gave the Boy Scouts of America a 99-year lease to campgrounds along the Brady Creek on his ranch property, which, by the way, that's coming up in about six or five years. It's going to be up there. So then they relocated several miles upstream in 1946, but the Boy Scouts continue to use Camp Billy Gibbons to this day.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
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Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That is so fucking great. 1938, the San Saba River flooded, causing countywide just ruin, just screwed everything up. One third of the town was underwater. It was a mess. Then in the 50s, they had a huge prolonged drought that fucked everything up and they couldn't grow anything. Too much water, not enough water. Okay. How it goes.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Notable people that have property here, I know, and he'll come up in the story, oddly enough, very prominently. Tommy Lee Jones. No kidding. Absolutely. The actor comes up prominently in the story. Which is strange enough as it is.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
He's got a giant pecan farm down there. Really? We'll talk all about it. Reviews of this town. We'll just do one review because there's only two. The other one was just kind of griping. Four stars here. I grew up in this town and majority of the town is related to me so it made it difficult to make friends since everyone is your cousin and you almost have to already be friends with them.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Wow. That is amazing. Since everyone is your cousin, that is not good.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
That's its own joke, right? Its own cliched joke in itself. The town is small but has nice scenery to it as in the country living. I guess the magazine, I don't know what they're talking about. I always, that was hard to read. Cause I'm like, do those words even go together as in to it as in country living? What the hell? I always come back to visit every chance I get. You loved it so much.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
You moved away. That's what you just said. And then came back and then you come back to visit, which means you didn't love it that much. If you left, uh, things to do San Saba, Pecan capital trade days, uh,
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
sure got that this is just basically sounds like a giant flea market that they have in downtown san saba around pecans it doesn't seem to have much to do with pecans but you know if you want to buy swap meat items i feel like it's perfect you want pecans you go to the pecan bottom festival pecan bottom yeah you're a bottom a hardcore pecan bottom that's a very specific type of guy
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Well, there's bottoms and there's tops and there's power bottoms and all that. A pecan bottom is a totally different thing. That is like a, whew, man, you don't even know. That makes power bottoms look like a pussy, you know?
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So at this little festival here, there's food and drinks. No coolers are outside food allowed in, though.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Keep your coolers at home. Let's see. We have bands.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
The coveted 10.30 a.m. spot that all the bands want to play. The hangover slot there. Mark Scott and Southern Comfort is their name. Then at noon, again coveted, the Samuel Bryce Lewis will play. Sure. 1.30, Funky Glenn Phillips and the New Chitlins. Funky Glenn Phillips.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
You know boring Glenn Phillips, but this is funky Glenn Phillips. Totally different guy. 3 o'clock, Presley Grace. Sounds like they just took Elvis Presley and Graceland and made a name out of it. It's a gal, yeah. Also, the West Texas Exiles. Okay. Carson Jeffrey.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about Rocket Money. It's the start of a new year. It's the perfect time to get organized, set your goals, prioritize what matters most. And for me, top priority is getting myself together here. Financial wellness, doing that, which that feels important.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And then finally, the big closer. Here we go with your headlining act, John Wolfe with an E. Okay, then. There you go. This sucks. That is $30 to get into, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Holy shit. $15 for children 4 to 11. I don't think so. Inflation's crazy. You got to love pecans, man. Let's just say that shit. Wow. I don't know what they're paying those bands, but too much would be my guess.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Let's talk about some murder here. Here we go. This is based on there is a very good article written here that a great information came out of a real investigative piece called A Tree is Known by Its Fruit by Sonia Smith from Texas Monthly. Texas Monthly does great long form in-depth stuff like this. Really do a great job. March 25th, let's go to 2012. So not too far ago.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Too long ago, I should say. Not too far back. And, you know, everything's the same. Your phone looks exactly the same. Same apps. You got Instagram. You're fine. All right. Here we go. Late afternoon, Sheriff Alan Brown is out on patrol when a 911 call came in from a 12-year-old boy. saying there's some trouble out at the ranch, okay? So we'll talk about that. We'll get there.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
There's trouble at the ranch. Not my ranch, a ranch is what he said. So the sheriff here, Sheriff Alan Brown, he takes off down US 190. He's going and going. He pulls up here. He knew the house that he was going to because apparently – Bonnie Harkey, who is the matriarch of the Harkey family. Right. She's lived here, and she's had big, I guess, everybody goes to the same Baptist church here, too.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Of course. So the sheriff knows Bonnie from Baptist church suppers, and also she used to host cookouts for the church people at her house and stuff like that. So he's been there plenty of times. He knows where he's going. Great hostess, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Now, the ambulance is also en route. Nice.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
And they assumed that the ambulance was for Bonnie Harkey, who is 85 years old and in terrible health.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So they're like, oh, shit, it's finally time to take Bonnie down here. So I guess not down, I guess to the hospital. Let's take her down.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Bonnie, we put up with enough of Bonnie's shit for too long. We're taking her down. I don't think that's what's going on here.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
You know, it just feels like adult stuff that you have to do. And thanks to Rocket Money, my goals feel achievable now. They show me all my subscriptions in one place, help me easily cancel ones I forgot that I've been paying for, which happened to me. Absolutely happened to me. For years, I was paying for something. I was like, what is going on here?
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
She's 85. Somebody's going to take over. So she's frail. She requires help from a caretaker. She's got some dementia going on and some physical maladies as well. But when they get to the house, instead, when they open the door, right in the landing there when you walk in the door, is face down is Bonnie's caretaker, 50-year-old Karen Johnson, face down on the floor. How about that?
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Yeah, this is fucking crazy. Now, they look around. There's an 11-year-old boy there. He's the one who called 911. That is Karen Johnson's son, the caretaker. Karen Gail Johnson is her name. Yeah, that's her son. But Bonnie is nowhere in sight.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
Fuck it. I don't care. Maybe she's Bonnie and Clyde Bonnie. We don't know. She is old. So the sheriff arrived at the house. He sees, you know, the ambulance that got there first. He sees Karen Gail Johnson sprawled face down just inside the front door on top of a floral doormat.
Small Town Murder
#564 - First Family Of Murder & Pecans - San Saba, Texas
So her reading glasses are right next to her on the floor. She was cool to the touch. And she was dead. So, yeah. So they said, where the fuck is Bonnie here? You know what I mean? So Karen's 11-year-old son, she's the one who found... He found his mother and called 911. He was on the front porch with the cordless phone, you know, standing there.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You know what he's eating. Just eat it. And he spit it out? Goddamn turkey.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You've had it dry. You've had it without taste. Just eat it. It's fucking fine. Chew it more. It's ridiculous. Well, she used salt and he doesn't like salt.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She wasn't over salty. She used salt to season her food and he does not like any salt. Okay. So he spit it out. So everyone's supposed to eat plain unseasoned food because this weirdo.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah, because Gina's stripper friend doesn't like it. Okay. Wow. So that's her mother was, quote, highly insulted. This is the way I would say. So, yeah, you come to my house and do this. It's not making a good first impression.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Gina said that her mother also disapproved of Paul's dancing and had concern that he was, quote, doing other things and sleeping with people for money and prostituting himself.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Also, Gina, Gina said, quote, she was concerned that he could be in homosexual relationships. Oh, my God. He's dancing around them dancers. They are all gay. You know that. Come on now. Nobody can keep a rhythm who's straight. That's ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's a big leap. It's a big fucking leap, but wait till later. Yeah. Oh, shit. Early in the relationship, Elizabeth Lott told Gina that Paul was, quote, trying to control her and was stalking her. From the beginning, she said, get away from that gay stalking dancer stripper weirdo who can't eat salt. Get him away from here. That's so funny. It's fucking hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And you bring a guy home in 1992 to your mom in New Jersey. Yeah. Who's from, you know, the West Virginia Hills and shit. And you're like, here's my stripper boyfriend. And she's get him the fuck out of my house. Obviously, they're going to say he dances. Yeah. And if Joseph brought home a stripper woman, the mother would probably have the same reaction.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah, she probably has dried semen in her hair. Get her out of here. So a little bit about Paul's past. He has not been a squeaky clean kind of fella here. He has a pretty good police record. As a matter of fact... While this is all going on, while they're all together, you know, through the 90s into the early 2000s, in the early 2000s, Paul catches an assault charge against his own mother.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Paul is. You can't hit Ma. Knocking his own mom around in the trailer.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Well, please, with the stereotypes, you're really I mean, Jesus Christ, man. He's also that's not his first time arrested, obviously, here. He was arrested in DeKalb County, Georgia, in 1980 for trespassing and larceny. Oh, boy. He was arrested in West Caldwell, New Jersey, in 1982 for larceny. And he was also arrested for disorderly conduct in Wayne, New Jersey, in 2003. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
It's barely sports. The guy's just flinging himself off of jumps with a motorcycle and crashing. It's a lot of fun. You also should listen to Your Stupid Opinions, of course, which is a hilarious show where we go over reviews of everything under the sun. And then if you listen to everything and you need more, Patreon is where you get it.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So none of these things are like, you know, mastermind criminal shit. He's not robbing banks or anything like that. But it all shows a lack of judgment and self-control, I would say.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Kind of a dick. Now, Gina and Paul are going to end up having two sons together. Is that right? Oh, she is going to be tied to this man. Oh, no. Now, Gina said that he tried to find other employment. But instead of finding it, he spent several hours a day lifting weights and doing aerobics and going to the gym, which doesn't pay any money, unfortunately.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Their first couple, their first child's born in 1999. And this is amazing. The night before his baptism. I've never heard of this before. Even for small town murder, this is going far. Okay, the night before their first child's baptism, they were living together, Gina and Paul.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Gina, something happened, and then Gina heard a noise and went and checked on the house, and in the middle of the night found a naked woman under her son's crib. Paul brought a woman into the house where his wife and his soon-to-be-baptized son are sleeping and was fucking her, and they made a noise and woke Jean up, so this woman ran and hid under the baby crib butt-naked. That happened.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So imagine... That's a night. You go in to get your infant. Yeah. And you're like, what? And there's a naked woman under there. Yeah. That has to be. I heard a noise. What happened? There's a fight.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Wow. That's going to cause a fight.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Oh, don't do that. Holy shit. I just hired a new nanny, Paul probably said. Yeah, it's her first. I told her no clothes so we know she's not stealing things. Yeah, that's what it is. I said, you're not allowed to wear clothes because the last lady stole from us.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She's Lithuanian. That's how they do it. Just relax. So that is fucking amazing. That's a lot, man. That's a lot. There was another time when, okay, he also lied to her and didn't tell her that he'd been married before also. And she had to find that out because she's a lawyer and knows how to look that shit up. Also, they had a huge argument with...
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Because there was a guy who was friends with Gina and friends with her for a long time. And obviously he didn't like that very much, Paul. So they would argue all the time. And he ended up having a big argument where Paul hid in the bushes outside this man's house and then popped up to start yelling at him and causing a big fucking scene. So that is wild.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Now, Gina is going to end up graduating from law school in 2003 when she finally graduates because she was going kind of on and off. And, you know, it's hard when you have two kids to go to like everyday law school. Yeah. So she does that. Somehow they continue this relationship. Through all of it. Through the naked woman under the crib.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody, $5 a month or above. you get everything. And I'm talking about As soon as you subscribe, a huge back catalog of hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before. And then new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder. And you get it all, damn it.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I would hope. I would think that would be where it's like, okay, this relationship's over. There's literally a naked woman in my son's room under the crib. This is crazy. I smell sex on her still. If you saw that in a movie, you'd go, that's funny, but it's far-fetched. It's something that would be in The Hangover. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Like a naked woman jumps out and the wife's like, what the hell's going on here? Right.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Is there an Asian in somebody's trunk? What's happening? So anyway, she gets pregnant again in 2003 from Paul. My God. Jesus. So Elizabeth, mom, was very upset that Gina was having another child with this fucking idiot. She's like, oh, my God. Seriously? Please tell me someone else knocked you up. Fuck.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So the son was born, and Gina said that she believed that Paul loved his children, but he didn't support them financially at all. Now, for all intents and purposes, they, quote, break up. But they don't really break up. They're still kind of together. This is a very toxic, sticky relationship. It's ugly. So Gina is living with her mom in this nice big house, in the dream home.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And I guess while this is happening, Elizabeth does not want Paul to visit the home when she's not there. Right. She said, I don't want him here when I'm not here. He can obviously visit his kids, but I don't want him in the house when I'm not there. So that's interesting. Gina said, quote, I was hoping he would get a job and find an apartment where the kids could visit. Yeah, right.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I trusted him. I thought if I supported him, he would come through and we could have a little life together. But it never happened. She still thinks it's been over 10 years of this crazy shit. And she's still like, I just he'll just get it together one of these days. Like, that's unfortunate, dude. I mean, at what point do you go? I can't fix him. I can't. Right.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
It's not fucking happening. This is the type of person that has like 14 toasters because she can't throw them out after they break. You know, it's like, holy shit. I feel bad. He's a lot. So Elizabeth said that he can only come to the house two days a week to see his sons. I don't want him here anymore than that. So that's how it goes. And Elizabeth does not take any shit. She doesn't back down.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She once they talked about arguing with because Elizabeth was always arguing with Paul. And one of the family members said, you know, you don't know this guy, though. You can't be arguing with grown men. He could hit you and or he could do something to you. And she held up her fist and said, if he ever tries to hit me, I'd paste one on him. That's what she said. Paste one on him.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So she's going to punch him herself here. She's a tough old lady. There is an incident in the hospital here. Gina was sick during her second pregnancy, and she was hospitalized and became sick in her room. Okay. The only person there is Paul, and he just left without even getting a nurse. He just said, well, you're sick.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
No, no. She was in the room being sick and he was like, well, I'm going to take off now.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
No one else was there. Yeah. He put the little bucket next to her and was like, not much more I can do.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And this week, what you're going to get for crime and sports, it's disaster potpourri. Yeah. Industrial disasters, amusement park disasters, hot air balloon disasters. You name it, it's disaster time.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I got to go. It's gross, man. I'm going to go. It's all pukey in here. You know how that goes. So she said Gina called for help until three or four in the morning and just laid there throwing up. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
another incident at the hospital here she was she was in the hospital like checked in in a bed paul was supposed to pick their older son up at school and when gina called him he told her his car broke down and he's far from the school so you know sorry can't do it can't do it yeah oh well so now she's got to try to figure this out from a hospital bed impossible at the moment sorry for you
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Oh, she began. She said she became hysterical and began calling other kids parents. And she finally reached one. She explained the problem. The parent told her that. What are you talking about? Paul is sitting here with me eating a can of tuna fish. Why does he do this? Out of the can. He's just eating. What kind of a weirdo goes to their son's school and eats tuna out of a can?
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And told Gina this, but he's there. So he did it just to fuck with her while she was in the hospital, which is really weird. Gina told her mother about that, and Elizabeth said, well, that's the kind of thing that idiot does.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That sounds like him. So as of 2004, they're still involved in this horrible relationship here. He, at this point, is working as a bartender, Paul is, at the Phone Booth Bar, F-O-N-E, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Which still exists under a different name. I think it's the Irish Cottage now. But it was the Phone Booth Bar.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Nor an Irish cottage. And also, you can't name it the Phone Booth Bar now because no one would know what the fuck that was.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I don't understand what Fonay is. Maybe it's a French place. Maybe it's fancy.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
We'll talk all about it. How can you be melted at work? We'll talk about it. Then for small town murder, we're going to talk about psychics that actually succeeded. Oh, we've done so much debunking of everything. I'm like, let's find out when something actually worked. So we're going to figure that out and figure out how that happened. So we'll talk about all that and more.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So he's also got a by now he has a ton of credit card debt, obviously. Yeah. And even is in the process of being in trouble for forging his son's name on a credit card application. His son's name at the most. It's a five year old. God, he's trying to or it's an infant. Either one.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Gina says, even though everyone thought she split up, they split up because she was too embarrassed to tell everyone she was still with him. She says, quote, We didn't split up. The relationship was ending. I was ambivalent. I was ambivalent for 12 years. You can blame me for that. I still wanted to be a family with my sons. My whole life was an embarrassment.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I often said, yes, we're going to get married. Everything's fine. She'd tell people that. Oh, so it's going, oh, yeah, no, we're getting married. That's what she'd tell people. Unbelievable, man. I guess there was certain times Gina said that her mother, Elizabeth, had criticized Paul in front of the children as well. I mean, one of them is an infant, so that doesn't matter.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
But the other one, she said also that she that Elizabeth often spoke badly of Paul in front of his son, Joseph. Gina's brother said that Elizabeth and Paul would occasionally have confrontations, but not frequent confrontations, but they would have some things now. Like I said, mom is trying.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That is Patreon dot com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. The regular show. That said, I think it's time, everybody, to get into some crazy murder. I think it's time to sit back. What do you say? Let's all clear the lungs, arms to the sky and let's all shout out. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we?
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Mom's goal is to die eventually and leave the property to the kids so they can build houses on it and have this property going on. Yeah. Here's some other relatives here. This is an outlier of an opinion here. This is Elizabeth's sister-in-law, so Gina's aunt, I guess, said that she saw Paul a few times at family reunions held every year about a week before Christmas and said he seemed mannerly.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
and said, when you just go meet someone for dinner or for a social get-together, you only get a first impression of them. We didn't see any bad side to him.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That was Thanksgiving. That wasn't the family reunion. We knew that. So at Christmas, when the whole family's there, he knows how to pull it together and be full of shit. So summer of 2004, there is an argument between Elizabeth and Paul. She called him a bum... And he called her a, quote, fat pig. That's how that went. All right, you fat pig. That's what he said. Those are equal.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Don't make me take my cock out and dance all over this fucking living room because I will right now. You're a bum. Yeah, well, you're a fat pig. That's right. Paul said she just doesn't like me because I'm, quote, not professional.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah, that's what it is. That is fucking amazing. And the funny thing is here, he had the family talks about how he, quote, lost five jobs in five years as a mechanic and never had a goddamn dime saved. Okay. He's a bum is what they're saying. Period. Fat pig. You fat pig. September 24th, 2004, 10 p.m. here. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Gina here is driving home from a family dinner at their uncle's house in Tatawa, T-O-T-O-W-A. She's calling her mother on the cell phone, calling the house, and Elizabeth is not answering the phone.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Repeated phone calls, and she's not answering the phone.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Which is odd for Elizabeth here. So Gina is worried and driving home quickly. She's got her two sons with her. One of them is an infant, like five months old, and the other is six years old or so. So they arrive at the home here, and she said she knew something was wrong instantly. The sliding glass door was open. which it usually is unlocked. That's normal.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She said, quote, I could see into the house from the sliding glass doors in the back. I first saw my mother. I could see her clearly lying face down in the family room. I could tell something was wrong, even from the outside. Yeah, face down in the family room is not a normal. That's not how she usually watches Jeopardy, probably. Yeah, that's how she thinks best to do the Daily Double, I think.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So Gina said, I thought she had a heart attack. She was just laying there with a table on top of her. It's a wooden folding tray table on top of her.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
But like a heavy one, not a chintzy one. Her thick glasses were broken and laying on the floor next to her. So Gina tries to call 911 from her cell phone, but for some reason she couldn't remember to hit send. This is how your brain... She used her cell phone... 10 times on the way over, hitting send every time. But your brain, when it goes into freak out mode, can't even do the simplest tasks.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Figure it out. So she couldn't figure it out. She threw her cell phone down because she thought it was broken or something. She just never hit send. So she grabs the landline, because her mom has a landline, and calls 911. Operator starts telling her to do CPR on her. So she's like, okay, I got to go over there and tend to her.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So Gina says, I leaned over to check her pulse, and that's when I saw the wounds. I saw a lot of blood. I saw her scalp and torn skin.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I tried to describe it to 911, but I didn't want to scare my child. I told him to turn around and look away. Yeah, this is traumatic for a six year old to see grandma with her fucking skull cracked open. Wow. Not what you expect from grandma's house. So Gina said she flung off the wooden tray table that was on top of her mother and reached down to turn her over.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She said, I wanted to help her, but I just knew she wasn't there anymore. Part of me knew she was gone. I didn't want to hurt her anymore. So she like didn't want to like start moving her around. So she said she studied the wounds of her mother and said she came to the realization that, quote, she didn't fall. Someone did this to her. She said, and I thought they could still be here.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I grabbed my children and ran out of the house as fast as I could.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Absolutely. You have no idea if you walked in in the middle of this and now they're going to come kill you and your kids. So the police arrive and the medical people arrive and they say she was struck with the folding table while she was in a horizontal position.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
The yeah, laying down, they opined that she died from blunt impact trauma to her skull and brain, having sustained a skull fracture to her right side that was likely fatal and caused by significant force.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Someone took a fucking heavy TV tray and bashed her skull in with it.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Which is, we've never had that as a murder weapon, right? No. This week we have had Visine and a fucking tray table. Two things we've never had before. It's a banner week for small town murder, I'm telling you. That is crazy. Yeah, the murder martini.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
The murder martini, as I named the episode. She was killed by that. They said that the injuries she had to her head were similar to those of victims of a car accident.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's the force she was hit with.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
The medical examiner said her skull was cracked in mosaic fractures, which requires significant force to create. Yeah, yeah. And she said her brain shifted from the impact and caused bleeding and hemorrhaging. This is hard, man. Yeah. There's a photo of her skull with – you can see exposed brain in it. Like it's horrifying and absolutely horrifying. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
They said that they asked how those are caused the mosaic features of the skull. She said the right side of the skull was hit with a heavy flat object with such force that it cracked her skull in a radial pattern similar to a mosaic tile design that expanded out to reach across the top of her head. That's how fucking hard she was hit with a flat side all the way over.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's how they say it. It's in northern New Jersey here. It's about an hour to the northwest of New York City, which I know sounds so weird if you're not from the area. You go, but New Jersey's over here and New York's over here. Yeah, but the city goes here and Jersey's inland. It's a whole thing here.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Radiated. Wow. The inner structures of her skull were also found to be fractured from the blow. The evidence at the scene dictates to me what happened there. This is what the medical examiner is saying. The home was well kept with some disarray, but there were no signs of struggle or forced entry. There was a glass lamp and picture frame still standing on the table right next to the victim.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
The home seemed untouched other than the victim's condition. This wasn't not a robbery gone wrong. There's one target in this house and it's hard. That's it. Not even the lamp like nothing. So they said, can you possibly get fingerprints off the murder weapon? And they said, unfortunately, there's a lot of blood all over the table.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
But they said wood is not a good material to get fingerprints from, which it's really not. It's grainy. It's not. It doesn't stick very well.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And also, there's a moisture thing. It'll suck moisture in wood and things like that, so it's not a very good keeper of fingerprints. Yeah, yeah. It'll take the oils from your skin and disperse them, and it won't have the right pattern.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah, I've heard that too. And it's not an even surface either ever would, no matter how even it looks. It's not. So it's hard. So chaos ensues at the house here, obviously. A neighbor sees all the emergency vehicles and comes over. She takes the older son back to her house. So can you please take my son out of this place? you know, murder scene possibly.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Um, now this lady next door takes the sun and also calls up the phone booth bar. Yeah. to tell Paul what's going on for some reason. I don't know how the mother's neighbor knows to call the phone booth bar for Paul, but she does. She says, you need to come to the house. So Paul arrives at the neighbor's house about 20 minutes later.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So investigators are processing the crime scene and securing evidence for analysis. Like I said, no signs of forced entry. Nothing appears to be stolen whatsoever. And there's no evidence of any sexual assault or anything like that.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Just I'm mad at that lady's skull, period. So Gina and Paul go to the local police department with the detective here and they call up the phone booth and confirm that he had worked there during the evening. Like he said, I was at work all night. You know, you guys, where were you guys? Okay, no one was there.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So they call up the phone booth and they said, yeah, no, Paul did have a shift tonight, but he did leave for, quote, a period of time when he claimed to be ill.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Northwest of New York City, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So the detective went to the phone booth and got the videotape from the surveillance cameras in the parking lot to see exactly how long he left, when, and how ill he was. It shows him arriving for work at 6.01. This is what kind of an asshole he is. He's late already. He's already late. He's going to run in there putting on his apron like, oh, yeah, no, no.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Like, get there five minutes early for a bartending shift. You fucking jerk off. Guy showed up late. He showed up late. Then he left the premises at 7.51 p.m. and returned at 9.00. Useless bartender. No shit. So he was gone for an hour and nine minutes from the parking lot, which is plenty of time. The bar is six miles away from Elizabeth's house, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Very commutable, though, an hour from the city. Two hours to Philly and about an hour and 40 to Neptune City, New Jersey, which was our last New Jersey episode, episode 529, Murder Audition, which was a crazy episode. That's the one where the kid got caught in the car. His friend filmed him and did the whole sting operation on him because he killed that girl for no reason. It was horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I got to go murder somebody. So was he sick, though? Maybe he was out there throwing up the whole time.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Whether you can get through the day or not, yeah. So fellow employees and a patron of the bar said that he didn't appear to be ill that evening, but he claimed he was. They said he left the bar, and they said when he returned, he was disheveled, sweaty, and had bloodshot eyes. Oh. He apologized for leaving in the middle of the shift, but the manager fired him anyway.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So that's another job he just lost. Couldn't even keep it at the phone booth. Now, you'd say, why was he there when they called him then if he got fired? Because he got fired and said, OK, and then went and sat down and ordered food. Who the fuck gets fired and then is like, all right, I'll just patronize the joint. I'll be a customer instead. Never heard of that before.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's why. Take it out of my last check. So they said he appeared nervous, was pacing, and repeatedly went to the men's room, then left the bar after receiving a phone call, which was the phone call saying, come down here. OK, now they get Paul in there and they're quite they advise him of his Miranda rights and he denies killing. I said, did you kill her? And he said, no, of course not.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's crazy. He admitted his relationship with her was shitty, but he's like, I didn't. I never left the bar.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And then they were like, we heard you left the bar. This is when they already know that he left the bar. And he says, well, I might have left for 20 minutes to get some air or something. And they said, well, everyone says you were gone for more than an hour. And he says, okay, maybe I was gone for longer than 20 minutes, but I, quote, absolutely never left the parking lot. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And they were like, but we have, okay. And they have video tapes of them.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Leaving. They also collect his shoes and clothes and get DNA samples. Okay. He's pissed that they're even questioning him. He's very upset. Yeah. He he two days after the murder, he asked Gina about having his regular visitation with the kids. Gina said, quote, he said, when can I have my visitation? I said, my mother's just been killed. You can't be serious. He was mad.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He was like, Sunday is my day with the boys. I don't care whose skulls been fucking mosaically fractured in the house. I'm coming over. Grandma's dead. So September 29th, 2004, five days later, they find out that his shoe tests positive for Elizabeth's blood in a DNA sample. He's got it on his shoe. So he's arrested and charged with murder. No one else has blood on their shoes. That was quick.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So five days, they just had to get the DNA back. They got it. And we're like, that's our guy. So they introduced forensic evidence that the blood on the shoe resulted from impact spatter and that he had been standing within 10 feet of the blood source at the time, you know, where a murderer would be.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Fuck. They also, in the arrest affidavit, they name a man, we'll talk about him later, who claims he's had sex with Paul and is a close friend of his and says that Paul admitted to going to Elizabeth's home that night with the intention to kill her.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
No, no, beforehand. But they're still buddies. Oh, so. When you fuck a man, you got to, you know, you stick close afterwards. You tell him your secrets. All right. That's pretty wild here. We'll talk more about him. And Joseph Leo, to Gina's brother, said, I knew what he had done. I had a fairly strong suspicion of what he had done. Paul's mom couldn't feel less like that.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
We'll talk about that. This is in Sussex County, area code 973. Population in this town, 10,831. Okay. So a pretty small town to be an hour from the city. It's not bad. Median household income here. is pretty high compared to the national average. National average is about $69,000. Here it is $88,563.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Paul's mom, Joan, I'll read this right from the paper. Quote, Joan Foglia emerged yesterday from the worn trailer she shared with her son in Finn's Mobile Home Park in Wayne. Yikes. And said her son did not commit the murder. Quote, my son is innocent. He didn't do any of this. I can't take this anymore. And I live in this shitty trailer. It's all bad.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She said that she doubted that her son will ever get to, or that she, not even her son, that she said, I'll probably never get to see my grandchildren again because the lots have money and we don't. That's that. They can keep the kids away from us. A neighbor of his who's known Paul for 10 years said he was shocked about this.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He said, I heard about a month and a half ago that everything was good between him and his girlfriend. He said, quote, I thought they were getting married. Now, at the county jail, okay, there's a guy named Alan Casey who's a fellow inmate here. And, yeah, he said to this guy, he tells this guy that he went there with the intent of killing Elizabeth.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He says he loved Gina and he loves his children and he wanted to live with them, but he told the cellmate there that the only way for this to happen was for Lot to not be there. I can't move in there. I can't move into this nice house that I don't have to pay for if this woman is there.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Gotta happen. Fat pig of a mother-in-law, future mother-in-law. So he also said that he knew that she'd be alone that night because he had earlier spoken to Gina and knew that she was going to a family dinner. And Gina does say that, yes, she did tell him that earlier that night.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So he told this cellmate that when he appeared in Elizabeth's home the night of the murder, she threatened to call the police on him. Because he showed up. So he said he, quote, snapped, pushed her to the ground and hit her with the folding table.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Fuck, that part's probably true.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Get off my property, I'll call the cops. She said, your kids aren't here, there's no reason for you to be here. So now he's in jail awaiting trial. In 2005, he sues Gina to see the kids more from jail.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And a judge enters an order requiring Gina to, quote, supply three photos of the children to Paul's counsel along with copies of progress reports and report cards every three months. So she's got to provide three new pictures and report cards.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's it. That's all she has to do. She does not comply with that order.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah. She says, fuck him. So he files a motion to enforce it and find her in violation of his rights. Then the same judge entered a motion granting his mo, uh, an order granting his motion saying that council fees and costs associated with Gina's noncompliance with the court order shall be awarded to Paul in the event of any future failure to comply. So now it's going to cost her money.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Uh, she complied with the court order for a period of time there when it didn't call. Yeah. It was going to cost her money. So anyway, 2008, the trial. Here it comes. Okay. During the opening, the prosecutor says Elizabeth Lott came closer than any other person to revealing the secret. Now, the secret was he has a gay lover. That's the secret. It was a secret he was willing to kill to protect.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's why he went up there, which is a stretch to say that, honestly. I don't care. I'd say I don't give a shit why he went over there. Wanted to move in the house and couldn't. So there you go.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's what I mean. That's what she thought the whole time. Yeah. He also, while he's in jail, he sends a handwritten two-page letter to Shannon Carotley, who's a former girlfriend of Joseph Leota, Gina's brother. Okay, they have a kid together. In this letter, he states, please, Shannon, help me. You know I didn't want this. I've repented with a contrite heart.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And the median home price, super low to be commutable to New York City as well, $300,000 for the median home price, which is lower than the national average, actually. This isn't like the most fancy town going, but it's... Not that bad either. Here's a little bit of history, just a drop here. It was named for Wantage, England, of course. Oh, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I don't know what you've heard or believe, but I did not provoke this horrible thing that happened. Which is a weird way to put it. I didn't provoke this horrible thing.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
It's very fucking weird here. He said that she wouldn't allow... In the letter... He went on to say that Elizabeth wouldn't allow him to sit at the family table during Sunday dinners. And this woman who was there said that Elizabeth often demeaned him in front of whoever was in the room, including his young son.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She said she never saw Elizabeth physically threaten Paul and that Elizabeth arranged a visitation schedule and did not allow Paul at her home when Gina and the boys were not there. And that also Elizabeth never restricted Paul from seeing his sons outside of her property and said that she would never have let him in if he was alone there. She would have never let him in. Absolutely not.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She said that she wrote in her, he wrote in his letter that Elizabeth, quote, said and did really mean things. So just break her skull into 100 pieces then. That makes sense.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Wow. I tried to leave. She came at me. He's claiming that his whole defense is self-defense for a sickly 67-year-old woman. Meanwhile, he's a 6'1", 200-pound, in-shape male stripper.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Afraid for his life. He said that Gina wants me to go away for the rest of my life. And it wasn't even my fault. Unquote. Not my fault. He said he obviously didn't plan the killing because afterwards he went to the police station for questioning with bloodstains on his shoes. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And the letter also includes several insults directed at the Leota family as well. So there's that fat pigs and everything else. They also introduce his, quote, prior bad acts, which are his neglect record, his criminal record and the fact that he's a stripper. They lump into that as well. Like he's not to be trusted.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
They said, quote, the fact that this defendant has neglected his son, has been unfaithful to his girlfriend, has been employed as a male stripper, has amassed substantial credit card debt, and has forged his son's name on a credit card application. That's said during the opening.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Now, there is an objection, and there's a big sidebar here, citing the testimony that he was a, quote, male dancer, and that's not even relevant here. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Gina testifies about the first time they met about Thanksgiving dinner when asked about the way Paul dresses and his attitude at the dinner. This is the spit the food out. It's too salty dinner.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And it became a precinct, this town, on May 30th, 1754. So it's been around quite a while. It's been a township since 1798.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
There's more objections and it's a they have another big sidebar over that. The judge says this is the entire relationship that existed among these people since they met each other. The defense attorney says it's not what took place between the witness and the defendant. It's how Mrs. Lott reacted to what took place, whether she was justified or not is not relevant.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
The passion and provocation goes to the action, not the reason for the action. It's an expression of Lott's dislike that's relevant, not the reason for it. So they're saying even if Elizabeth had all the reason in the world to hate this guy, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about when he came over, could she have hated him and attacked him? Period.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Whether it's relevant to hate him isn't really, you know, whatever.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah. So the prosecutor said that the evidence is to the motive of the defendant and demonstrated why Lott hated him from the beginning. And the judge overrules the objection. They're going to let all that in.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Paul testifies on his own behalf, which if you're going to say an old lady attacked me and I had to kill her, you better have some words to back that up here. You better have some proof, some show something. Yeah. He said he was sick the night of the murder and left the phone booth, though he claimed it was with permission when it wasn't because he got fired. So he lies right there on the stand.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He had spoken to Gina by phone and she was upset. He believed it was due to the constant tension between her and her mother. And he thought that they had argued that day. That's all about you, though, stupid. He decided to go to Elizabeth's home and speak with her about their problems. I'm going to lay it all on the line here. He said he saw her watching TV through the rear sliding door.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He said he tapped on the door and Elizabeth let him in, which we know probably didn't happen right away. The back doors open all the time. He said the conversation deteriorated into a battery of insults where she called him names and he called her a witch. It's a fat pig witch. He then claimed that Elizabeth came at him swinging her arms and she picked up the folding table and swung it at him.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
It was included in the initial group of New Jersey townships. There was 104 originally, and this was one of them here. Here are some reviews of this town. All right. Five stars here. Wantage is beautiful, a quiet rural town. You will find everything from majestic rolling hills with no shortage of farm animals and natural wildlife to historic sites and buildings and vintage shopping boutiques.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
ECW. She's going full fucking wrestling here. She cut a promo on him, picked up a table.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Holy shit, that is crazy. He said that she swung it at him, hitting him in the left arm, causing a minor laceration, which, by the way, he didn't have at the bar or the police station. He had no laceration at all on him. He said he grabbed the table from her and hit her on the head. He said when she fell to the ground, he hit her again and then left the table on top of her.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
It's the one good flat shot while she was laying down is the one that really got her. Part of that probably is because her head was on the ground, too, so there was pressure on the other side. He said that after she hit him with the table, quote, I went into a blackout and a blur. Uh-huh.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He said he was enraged because Elizabeth told him he was, quote, not good enough for her daughter, his kids, his sons, and that if it was up to her, she'd take his kids away and he'd never see them again.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And then he killed her, which is, you know, that's proportionate.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I said, we're turning these ropes to barbed wire and we're getting inside the cage. I'm tired of this shit. Unbelievable. So during cross-examination, he acknowledged that he had given a number of different accounts of his activities on the night of the homicide to law enforcement authorities.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He also admitted that in an attempt to have his bail lowered, he supplied a false certification in which he claimed the police had coerced him into providing a formal statement immediately after arrest. He never indicated any of those prior statements, however, that Lott threatened him or hit him with the folding table. That's new information he just came out with at the trial.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
There was other evidence that inferentially challenged the credibility of his version of events. For example, when he was initially interviewed, they observed no injury to his arm, which they were looking for shit like that. He also claimed that when he returned to the phone booth after the homicide, his frequent trips to the men's room were caused by nausea and his need to care for the cut.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
But surveillance videotape doesn't show any injury either. On cross-examination here, the prosecutor extensively questions him about his debts and the fact that he has lost five jobs in five years as a mechanic. They say, do you remember applying for a credit card in your son's name? And he said, for Alex, it was just a joke. What's the joke?
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
There's what's the joke between me and the person who's going to read this credit application? Who are you joking with?
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And they said, it was a joke. And he said, I never used it. And they said, quote, it was a joke. It was a joke. You do something that affects your son's credit. And he said, I never used it. And they said, and you laugh about it? And he said, I didn't. I didn't know any better at the time. I put his name on it. I got, and they said, forged a credit card application, forged your son's name.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I didn't know any better at the time. It was sometime in the last three years this happened. He was in his 40s. The man was in his 40s. He didn't know that was not okay.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Oh, man. So then they questioned him extensively about his failure to pay child support. They also bring up the naked lady under the crib, hiding in the bushes to attack the friend. Then they talk about his dancing, and here's where it comes. Okay. They say, you're dancing. Let's talk about that. You say dancing. We're not talking about the polka or the tango or anything. No.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He says, no, I worked in Chippendales in New York. Oh. Which was a big deal. And they said, right. And you also danced at Feathers, right? A gay club. He's just putting his top one up there.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
For the outdoorsman, there are ideal locations for fishing, hunting, and for hikers, among other trails. You can climb to the highest point in all of New Jersey, High Point Monument. Located less than an hour's drive from major cities, Wantage offers a peaceful, scenic escape from urban living.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You know, he's like a comic who just lists the best club he's ever played at, not all the other shitholes. And he said one time, I didn't like it and I quit. And they said, you used to strip for money. And he said, no, I worked out on a solo flex machine, but that was in like 1994. What? Yeah. Okay, it gets better. They said, no, you've danced. You took your clothes off for money.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's what you did for a living. And he went, oh, yeah, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
It gets better. The solo flex thing is going to get explained here. They asked if Elizabeth knew anything about his dancing, and he said he did. And then they said, and she knew that you stripped at gay clubs? And he said, no. And that was only twice, and I quit. He said once before. Now it's twice. We've now gone to two. It was just two weeks. Just two weeks. I just worked there two years.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's all. I just blew two guys. That's it. After a while, it's really going to get – they said, you know that she suspected you were involved in more conduct than just taking your clothes off, right? And he said, I had no idea. And they said, you didn't know. And he said, I said I had no idea. They said, she never called you a male whore before.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah, stuff I was doing. He said, no, she did not. So the judge permitted the prosecutor to inquire about his relationship with Brian Schell. That's the guy who gave the statement to the police. He claims he was Schell's, quote, personal trainer and that Schell, quote, offered him money to do body worshiping. OK, that's so they know it's not.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
The court takes a break and the jury sends a note asking the judge, what the fuck is body worshipping? We don't know what that is. So the prosecutor over the defendant's objection and contrary to the judge's earlier ruling, limiting testimony was permitted to continue with this line of questioning.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
They said, when I was cross examining you before, you had a sexual relationship with Brian Schell, right? There was a sexual component to it. He said for him, it was sexual, not me. Okay, that's the ultimate gay denial shit that I've ever heard in my life. He was doing the sucking. I was just sitting there. That is not, and I don't care. Suck all the cock you want. It doesn't fucking matter to me.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I don't give a shit, but I'm just saying that's what dudes who are embarrassed about this say. Oh, God. The prosecutor says, what does that mean? For him, it was sexual. What are you talking about? And Paul says he got a sexual thrill out of watching me work out or touching my body. That's the solo flex. That's what he was doing. So the prosecutor said, that's what I'm trying to get at.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
There was a sexual there was sexual contact between you and Brian Shell and there was money exchanged. Right. Oh, he says at the time there was. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Which sounds like a real estate agent wrote that, for Christ's sake. Wow. Here's three stars. It's a rural area. It's great if you just want to be away from the hustle and bustle. You need to be able to drive as all of the stores are 20 minutes away by car. I mean, it's kind of a rural area. There's no public transportation in the county.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Which makes him a male whore. And according to a prostitute.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So the state contends all this evidence is relevant to rebut an unfair and inaccurate attack against the victim and to provide a proper framework for the jury to fully evaluate events leading up to the murder.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
They said it all falls under the Rule 404 exclusion of crimes, wrongs, or acts because the testimony only showed his behavior was boorish, indolent, or self-indulgent and not that he had a propensity to commit murder. So it shouldn't go along with that. Okay. In closing, the defense attorney says this wasn't a murder. This isn't a murder.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He said this is a heat of passion manslaughter coming after years of ill treatment of Paul by this terrible woman who provoked him. She said, you heard him talk about how she swung a table at him in a rage. What's he supposed to do? She hit him first. I don't know. Don't be in her house is what you could do, I think.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So the verdict, 10 and a half hours of deliberation for this jury, which seems like a lot, right? For this.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah. All we're deciding is manslaughter or murder. He admitted he did it. So it's just, is it going to be manslaughter or murder? It's six men and six women on the jury. They find him guilty of first degree murder.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yeah. Yeah. possession of a weapon, which is the fucking table, which is hilarious. A tray is a weapon in court with intent to use it unlawfully. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And criminal trespass as well. During sentencing, Joe, the brother there, Gina's brother said, this man could not hold a job changing a tire and she was paying for his two children. That one thing in the world that he couldn't change was my mother's mind. All that anger was focused on my mother's head.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You fucking bum. You non-tire changing fucking dick out of your pants bum. People hate a man who just will not get a job. They hate him. Especially these Jersey Guineas. They're like, you don't even support your fucking kids. You're a bum. So they sentence him. You, sir, may fuck off life in prison with parole, but not for 30 years.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And he's like longer. I think he's like 47 or something. So it's a good amount. He's not going to be doing much stripping when he gets out. Put it that way. One of the jurors, by the way, said some people's opinions vary, but everyone recognized everyone else's motive and just wanted to make sure justice was carried out correctly. We knew our responsibility. We took it very seriously.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And that caused us to be very careful in the decision made. So this guy said, too, this is his first time on a jury. And he said, I had no idea it was going to be a murder case. I hope I don't have to do this ever again.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
2009 they continue to fight in family court here about the photographs and this goes back and forth and we're not going to get into the details because we don't have time 2010 he appeals this whole thing and it is on mainly the admission of extensive prior bad acts evidence and the court's failure to provide a limiting instruction deprived defendant of his right to a fair trial that's his one thing
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Now, it's called the Caulfield test, I guess, that you can tell if this should go in. And they say that this test requires that, one, evidence of the other crime must be admissible as relevant to a material issue. Two, it must be similar in kind and reasonably close in time to the offense charged.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Growing up around here was OK as long as your parents are involved. As long as they're hanging out with you in the woods.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Three, the evidence of the other crime must be clear and convincing, and the probative value of the evidence must not be outweighed by its apparent prejudice. Also – He has several points. Point two, trial judge's refusal to more specifically instruct the jury. Point three, prosecutorial misconduct.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Point four, the court aired an excusing juror number seven after two days of deliberations in order to accommodate the juror's vacation plans. Point five, the trial court abused its discretion in sentencing him to a life term because a proper analysis of the aggravating factors does not support such a sentence. That's how it goes. So they find the whole thing. They say reversed. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Shouldn't have let that shit in that you let in, basically.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Had some chicken fingers and then fucking went to the police station with blood on his shoes. With blood on his shoes. Gina's pissed. Gina said those jurors did not convict him because he took a credit card out in my son's name. They didn't convict him because he was a male stripper or a bum. They convicted him because he killed my mother.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I don't know what's going on. It's not a good area to retire in. It's the Northeast. Yeah, it's cold and wet and expensive. Three stars here. I've grown up here for the majority of my life, and I really like it. I love seeing all the animals everywhere. Sometimes it's sheep. Sometimes it's cows. We get it. Farm animals. If you said sometimes it's a Yeti, that would be interesting.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
He can bring in whatever evidence he wants, but we can't put it into context. This is meddling by a court, and they don't care what effect they have on people. They turn around and say, no, it's okay to blame the victim. That's what this decision does. Then he sues her again to see to see the kids more. And that fails. 2012 new trial.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
They say the defense attorney says this new trial is going to be a lot shorter. They won't be able to paint the same picture of Paul. The fact that he was a male stripper is banned from the retrial. But it comes up again, though. It still comes up because that's it has to.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's all of that. What have you been doing? It just comes up. Why was she mad at you?
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Yep. Gina said she tolerated verbal or that that Paul they asked him if Paul tolerated a lot of verbal abuse from Elizabeth. And the prosecutor objects to all of that. So there's a lot of objecting and things of that nature here. They said Gina testified the day before the murder happened. He and Gina had sex for the last time before they broke up. That was that. Oh, that was it.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So that's what they were saying. That was the end of it right there. And Gina said, my discussion with the defendant was that I had had enough of splitting up. We decided we'd have sex one more time than split up. He must be a great fuck. That's all this is. He has to be right. Has to have a good dick on him, I think. Right. Unbelievable. Has to be fucking swinging a hammer.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That's all I can imagine. So in closing, the prosecutor said Paul had a clear mind and a clear intent of murder that night. In all of those 12 years, he never once went to talk to her alone. The one time he did, he beats her to death. Nothing more clearly defines his intent that he went there to kill her.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
They said he knew that she was home alone with no car, knew that Gina and the children were at a dinner party away from the house. On the first day of a new job, he leaves after an hour and drives over to the house, parks halfway up the driveway, walks around the back to an unlocked door. They said Paul was under control when he aimed that tray table at her head and chopped at her like an axe.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
After he did this, he didn't call 911. He didn't try to help her. He left her for dead and called Gina to ask how long she would be before she got home. Wow. OK, the defense attorney said this should be a passion provocation manslaughter. Ten years tops. Come on. Quote, this is not a murder. This is a family tragedy. What was it?
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And then lied all about it. Yeah. He didn't go. I couldn't help it. Oh, my God. Yeah. They said, what was it? What was it that converted Paul from a person who would never do something to this to into someone who did? We know what happened. Let's look at why he suffered from verbal abuse and much more for years. Jesus Christ. She said that was this was the nature of her extreme hatred for him.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
this time verdict comes in two hours of deliberation fast this time i am guilty again okay good sentencing uh gina's brother by the way chastised his lawyer paul's lawyer for his conduct during this and called him a monkey at one point which is hilarious i think you're a fucking dumb monkey it was a white guy's too so it's not not a racial component he just called him a monkey
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Gina said, how could you do this to these little boys? When your retrial came up and I had to sit your six-year-old son down and explain to him what his father had done before he heard it from somewhere else. This is what you did to these boys. You don't care about us. You only care about yourself. I truly feel you're without a conscience, Paul. What I say doesn't matter.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Otherwise, I don't know. You definitely have to get used to the farm smell, though. Yeesh. Yeah. I just wish places were closer together. You can't really walk place to place. Yeah. It smells like poop. And it smells like shit. It's an hour from the city, though. That's not bad. And then finally, three stars. Only a few restaurants. Mexican, Greek, and an inn. And there are two diners. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You've only thought of yourself anyways. She said, my mother was right about you. That's hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
This justice is a cold substitute for what you took from me. I'm haunted. All of my thoughts lead me back to the horror you created. You destroyed everything. Wow. Whenever I Jesus Christ, my best memory of my mother was when I was four years old. I was watching her get ready to go out. She pulled her hair back and put it up in a braid.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Now, whenever I do my hair and remember that I brace myself because I know the image of her lying on the floor with her hair soaked in blood and her skull open is coming. Then his son gets up there on the stand, his teenage son, and said, the day I was told you were the killer of my grandmother, I died. I can't remember my grandmother's voice.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
What I do remember is seeing my grandmother under a wooden table and my mother screaming, you gave up the right to know me when you killed my grandmother. I hope you stay in prison until you die. And he also called him a killer, a bastard, and a child's life destroyer. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
paul says quote this is he's got a whoa he said i didn't want to go back to prison for life because i didn't go there to do that to your mom talking to gina i should have never done that to your mom and let my son find her like that then he says to gina i think about you every day whoa i never i never meant for this to happen i loved you gina i loved your i loved our family i don't know what happened to me that night
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
The judge says she suffered repeated blows. It was a vicious attack. I cannot accept this defendant's claim that he did not mean to kill her. You, sir, may fuck off life again 30 years before parole. Yeah, he appeals all of that. And obviously that doesn't matter.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Nope. They said, nope, keep on keeping on, fuckhead. They actually said that the brutal circumstances surrounding the victim's suffering justified the life sentence. Virginia right now appears to be practicing family law in New Jersey. So she looks to be thriving and doing great. Good for her because she's been through a lot and we feel bad for her. By the way, don't take it out on this guy.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
There's a LinkedIn profile of a guy named Paul Foglia, and he's the assistant vice president at Excess Casualty, which is the worst fucking thing it could be because that was an excess casualty.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I think it's insurance. So there you go. That is Wantage Township, New Jersey. Unbelievable. Very quickly run through the end here. Definitely follow us on social media at smalltownmurder on Instagram at smalltownpod on Facebook. Definitely shut up and givememurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. Chicago, St. Louis, you're up next in May. A lot of them are selling out.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Get your tickets right goddamn now. Shut up and givememurder.com. Also get your merch while you're on there. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of your bonus material. $5 or above will get you hundreds of episodes immediately of shit you've never heard before and then new stuff every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. You get it all this week.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Crime in sports, disaster potpourri, industrial shit, hot air balloons, you name it, we'll do it. Amusement park for small town murder. We're going to talk about when psychics actually die. in finding bodies and stuff like that. We'll talk all about that. Patreon.com slash Grime and Sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You want to follow us on social media, shout up at GiveMeMurder.com as a list and drop down menus. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
I can't believe there's no Italian joint around here.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Done. Cuisine, that's it. That's it. Not even if it's good or not, just only a few restaurants.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
We have these. Things to do. Just filling in on this, just what we have. Things to do, the Wantage, New Jersey Harvest Festival, which takes place at the Holy Spirit Orthodox Christian Church.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
It's September 29th and 30th. So, yeah, admission is free, obviously, because I don't know who's going to pay for it. What do they have here? Food vendors, live music. It says it's on church grounds. And they have, let's see, I see no, they don't really talk about any of the activities. They say there is American and Slavic foods. Great. So that's nice. And then there's two bands playing.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station. We have an absolutely wild one for you today, as it always is for Express, and every other episode, too, for that matter. But Express, it's so compressed that... It just seems crazier.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
OK, we have the Culver Gap Bluegrass Trio. Yep. Which they leave no mystery of what they're doing. We get it. There's three and we know what you're playing. And then finally, the Snake Oil Willie band, which sounds awesome. I want to see Snake Oil Willie. That's what I want to see. He only has one eye, right, Snake Oil Willie?
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
That said, let's go ahead and talk about some murder, shall we? Thank God. Jesus, let's do it. Let's talk about a young lady first, Virginia Leota, just like Ray, L-I-O-T-T-A. She goes by Gina, Virginia Leota, which I guess if you took the I out, Gina's in the name.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Ginny, Verge. Verge is a big one. Verge is real popular. My mom had a friend named Verge. She was a mess. So bizarre. Oh, she was this crazy, loud, drunk lady, and we'd have to go to her house, and she was a disaster.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Gina's usually not for this. Not Virginia. Not Virginia, but she goes by Gina. She's born October 1969, and she has a brother named Joseph as well, Joey Leota over here. Sure, sure. So she grows up in this area. Her mom's name is Elizabeth Lott, L-O-T-T, and Elizabeth is born in 1937, and So, you know, obviously a good amount older than her daughter.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Now, Elizabeth here, they're like an educated family.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Like a smart family. Sure. Now, it's funny because Elizabeth didn't start out like that. She didn't start out as having like money and status in a town. She was born in West Virginia as one of 13 children of a coal miner.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So her life could not be any more different than it was when it started. It could have gone way worse. Oh, my God. She could have been in one of our West Virginia episodes. Think about it. So instead, she that's impressive. She'll end up being a professor of economics at Pace University in New York. I don't think when you're born as one of 13 kids to a coal miner in West Virginia in 1937.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You're going to go. She's going to be a New York City professor someday. Teach us all about math like that's good for her, man. Now, she has the two children and gets divorced very young. Oh, when the kids are very young. So like early 70s, her and her husband get divorced. So she ends up raising them alone.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And while she's doing this, she puts herself through college to become an economics professor. Unbelievable. Elizabeth has some stick-to-it-ness to her.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She is hardcore, man. She also puts Joseph through medical school. What? And puts Gina through law school. Yeah. Was she a stripper? No. Back then, too, it was a little easier. You could actually afford college. But still.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Expensive ones. Yeah. And also, she's smart. Her kids have to be doing. So, I mean, to come from where she came from and then end up putting her kids through law and medical school. Awesome. Wow, she did about as good as you can do. That's like American dream shit right there.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So we have some wild stuff. Before we get to that, shutupandgivememurder.com is where you get tickets for live shows. And if you want to come to a live show in 2025, I highly suggest and recommend that you do it right now because a lot of these are selling out. We have Madison's sold out. We got San Diego's about sold out. A couple of tickets left in St. Louis. Grand Rapids sold out.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
So by the time the kids are adults, Gina and Joseph here, like I said, she is a professor of economics at Pace in New York, and her health is declining pretty good here. And when she gets into her 60s, her health starts to decline a good amount. Now, a few years back in the early 2000s or late 90s, late 1990s, she buys a house described as her dream home. Great. It's on 40 acres of land. Oh. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
She bought an estate.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Fuck yeah. It's isolated from the other homes in the area. She would eventually like her kids to build houses on this property somewhere. On the property.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
And have a big compound basically. Sure. She's going to move a little bit of the West Virginia holler into into the 40, except they have 40 acres. It's not a trailer on the front lawn in front of the house, which is good. So 1992, Gina, she meets a man. OK, boy, he's an interesting fellow here. Paul Foglia, F-O-G-L-I-A.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
The son went to medical school, her brother Joseph. She went to law school. Oh, she went to law school. Yeah, yeah. At this point, I don't think so because she is only 23 years old at this point in 92. So Paul Fogley is born in October 1960, so he's a good nine years older than her to begin with. Now, they met when she was a social worker and he was a male stripper. Hell yeah.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Now, Paul, he's a real interesting guy. He does a lot of stripping, number one. He's like a 6'1", 200-pound muscular guy who strips. And it is fucking hilarious that he has long, dark hair, which when he's younger and stripping was probably great for him. But later on, his hair is terrible, okay? It's... But he still he still styles it like he still has the same amount of hair.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Like he likes like a it looks like a Johnny Depp hairstyle is the best way to fucking describe it. Like a ponytail with like bangs that long bangs that come down in the front. But he has like no hair up top. That's the fucked up part. So he's just got like this. It's such a mess later on.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
People used to scream and shove money in this guy's pants. And now they scream. You're like, oh, get your horrifying head away from me. Oh, my God. Dude, it's bad. He's also worked as a mechanic before. But stripping's his main job, though.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Also a personal trainer when that comes up here and there. But also a stripper. But also he likes to strip and strips a lot.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
We'll find out where and when also. Now, the relationship between him and Gina is on and off all the time because he's a stripper. Well, yeah. And he's a mess, too. He's absolutely a fucking mess on top of it. He's the most irresponsible person who's ever walked the earth. Okay. He's a fucking mess.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Early in the relationship, Gina discovered that he had a whole other girlfriend that he didn't tell her about. So there was that. Also, he would call Gina obsessively at work. And not only would he call her at work, he would call her boss up to make sure she was working, not call her boss.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
To make sure she's at work right now. She's actually working, though, like at her desk. And the guy would be like, do you work here? That's too much. You want to just come take a shift of a supervisor? You can't do that. No, it's absolutely crazy. The first Thanksgiving they spent together. This is fucking great, too. Gina invites Paul over to Elizabeth Lott's house for a family Thanksgiving.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You know what I mean? Sure, sure. Paul, by the way, is from a completely different background. His family is trailer people. I don't know where his father is. He lives in a trailer with his mother most of the time.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Portland sold out. You've got to get in there. Seattle, D.C., Philly, and Chicago are where there's some tickets available. Get those tickets right now. Shut up and give me murder.com. Get your merch while you're there. To wear to a live show, of course. Listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, which you don't have to like sports. We're doing a whole series on Evel Knievel right now.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
Absolutely not. And he comes home stinking of 45 different women's perfume to a trailer with his mother. So that's not great. Wow. So at this Thanksgiving dinner, Paul comes over. He takes a fucking bite of the food that Elizabeth has made, this feast for the family, and spits it out. Why? Tells her it's gross. Your food is terrible. Okay, this is his first time there. You pretend it's good.
Small Town Murder
#572 - Murderous Male Stripper - Wantage Township, New Jersey
You can't choke something back, man. I hate Thanksgiving food. I go every year to my brother's house and I eat it.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Multiple. Oh, yeah. He's got some stuff here. This article goes on to say that Ashley Palo's parents, ex-wife, and girlfriend had warned for years that his erratic and violent behavior would someday endanger his life or the lives of others, according to court records. Wow. So nonviolent, very laid back, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
There were psychological evaluations, restraining orders, threats, and bizarre behavior records show.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I can see a criminal lawyer. Because they get their bombastic showmanship as part of it. A tax lawyer is supposed to be pretty fucking buttoned up, right? It's like the least worrisome of all the crime. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. I mean, I guess you're...
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Well, he's a lawyer, not for the IRS.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
But one incident that could send the Boca Raton tax attorney to prison for life. was a simple shove at a Boca Raton restaurant this summer. Uh-oh. That's because Paolo, 47 at the time and 99, shoved Julius Melnick, 75... Oh, Ashley. ...at the doorway of 2J's Gourmet Deli. You're beating up old men at a deli? What the fuck are you doing? How hangry were you? What an asshole.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
On August 2nd, Melnick fell against a wall and broke his hip as Paolo stood over him and yelled... What's your problem? I've got a broken hip. My fucking hip is broken. My pelvis is shattered at the moment.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Well, let's see here. As a result, Apollo was charged with aggravated battery on a person 65 years or older, which in Florida, that's a lot of the population. So those laws are strong.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That carries a penalty of 30 years to life in prison.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I guess not. Not in Florida. There's so many of them. They're like, let's put them away forever if they touch us. We can do whatever we want. We'll drive our golf carts shit-faced in front of them. Incredibly slow. Anybody gets angry about it, 30 years to life. We own this place. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Oh, my God. So, Melnick then died on October 27th. Oh, my God, he did? He died. From pneumonia in a hospital due to complications.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
The medical examiner said were related to the incident. He killed him. He killed him.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's not the murder, by the way. That's not the small town murder here. Because it's a bonus murder.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Holy shit. Over an Italian fucking combo. What's happening? Wow. Because of the medical examiner's ruling that the death was a homicide, Boca Raton police last week added a charge of third-degree murder.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Wow. They did, yep. That murder charge, however, is punishable by a maximum of 15 years in prison. Because of what the state's attorney's law office called an inherent flaw in the statute. Yes, you let old people write the elderly law, and it makes no sense with the rest of the laws. They're trying to protect themselves from ever getting shoved over a salami. Good God.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Mike Edmondson, spokesman for the state's attorney's office, said he'll lobby to have the laws changed so third-degree murder charges carries a harsher penalty than aggravated battery. That seems logical.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Holy shit. Now, they say that Ashley has one prior arrest in February of that year, 1999, for battery and violating a restraining order. He's a problem.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I guess so. Despite the allegations of abuse against him, Paolo has never been disciplined by the Florida Bar since being admitted to the bar in 1980. In 1998, court-ordered psychiatric examination, Paolo denied having the urge to hurt anyone and said he was under stress at work because he was trying to find more profitable cases.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Well, people in tax trouble usually don't have the most money to pay. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Drug dealers. That's who you should defend. They have a lot of money. They pay in cash. It's great. Apollo began exhibiting violent behavior shortly after meeting his wife in a psychiatric facility in Tarpon Springs more than two decades ago. They met while they were both in the psych ward.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Him and his wife. Yeah. And then they said, let's have four kids. Let's figure out life together. Yep, according to restraining orders and other Palm Beach County court orders. Gene Dwayne Palo and Ashley Palo. What? Yeah, his wife's name is Gene. Dwayne. Gene Dwayne. That's his wife, and his name is Ronald Ashley. Very confusing. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
They met in 1973 at Anclote Manor, which is not a ski resort in Vail, where they were both being treated for behavioral disorders, quote unquote. They fell in love, left Anclote without medical authorization and got married. Which, when you go into a facility like that, they say try to find someone and fall in love with them and run away and get married.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's the best course of action for you, really. The best treatment you can have.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Drug addicts, behavioral disorders. According to the final divorce ruling there in 1997. It didn't work out.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Crazy. The lengthy and bitter divorce is peppered with dozens of allegations of abuse, including an account of being of a beating that's alleged to have occurred within one week of their marriage.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
This guy I met at the mental institution isn't the guy I thought he was.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Strange. Jean Palo said the beatings continued through their marriage, averaging two to three times per month.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Jesus Christ. Poor woman, that's fucked. In 1995, she filed a restraining order against Ashley Apollo saying she and the children needed protection against his malicious, brutal, and violent temper.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
They wrote that Ashley had trouble with his temper, ego, and lack of maturity, and at times he exhibits erratic behavior. That's from the evaluation. Paula was also accused of abuse by a girlfriend. of course, who filed a restraining order against him in January, calling him a, quote, psychotic alcoholic in court records. Very nice.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Shirley Powell, 40, said in court that she feared for her life when Paolo, Powell and Paolo got together. Terrific. Came home. Let's just rearrange those letters and make you mine. What do you say? Came home one day in a rage and began kicking and hitting her like a maniac and foaming at the mouth.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He has rabies now, too. What's his deal? I don't know. He's got a lot. The taxes will make you angry. I guess. They're frustrating. They can be very. Those long forms. Frustrating.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Who knows what's happening? In June 1998, Paolo asked a judge to commit his son after he said Ashley Paolo destroyed everything in his house. That's David Paolo asked that. Please commit my father because he wrecked the whole house. He's losing it. He just destroyed the whole house.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, it said his son in court record went on to say he will not talk to anyone, has not been to his office in a week and has left his law practice unattended and has been drinking in excess. Oh, boy. Complete meltdown is what that is.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
One of his employees, Donald Murray, said in court records that Paolo's home was littered with food and beer bottles and that he was acting incoherent as if he was hallucinating. He goes, I'm just trying to acclimate myself to Fort Pierce, Florida. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Wow. I want shooters. A general master, a court officer who researches and mediates issues for judges, recommended that Ashley Palo be evaluated at Fair Oaks Hospital in Boca Raton, report show. And it said, quote, this is from the report, general master's report, the patient's behavior and history indicate mental illness.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yeah, and choo-choo. Oh, yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Patient has recently demonstrated an active danger to others through violence and threats of harm, as well as danger to himself exhibited by repeated auto accidents. He's crashing cars, too. He's a dude out of. He can't do anything safely. Fucking control. Yeah. Out of control. So that's 99. Then in 2000, they dropped the murder charge against him.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah. I don't know why he maintained that he accidentally bumped into the guy. That's what he says. And a teenage cashier who witnessed the incident now says he doesn't think Paolo meant to harm him. Oh, so he thinks he was... At first, he said he pushed him down, and he said, I don't know, maybe he didn't mean to harm him. Okay. So who knows?
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, what's your problem, he said. So the guy who died, he died from pneumonia and a blood infection, which were complications from a broken bone. He went septic, man. Yeah, that's fucking brutal.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So then Ashley is pretty quiet for about 10 years. Figured it out. Or at least figured out how to not be in court documents constantly. Keep it quiet. Yeah, keep it on the down low here. So January 2010, he resurfaces with the police and is arrested. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
On charges including organized dealing in stolen property and second-degree grand theft following allegations he traded another person's Bobcat construction equipment to pay a debt. He stole a Bobcat and traded it because he gave it to someone he owed money to. Here you go. Those are incredibly traceable. Oh, God, yeah. They have fins, don't they? Of course they do. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He is on it today. Look at that. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. Oh, my goodness. All aboard the murder train. There it goes. Pulling away from the station. We got a wild episode for you, as usual, on Express. You know we will stuff a three-hour murder story into an hour, and it's going to be wild stuff, so... Check that out, definitely.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
And guess what? Arrested for it, stupid. I would like to know who that debt was to.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
organized dealing and stolen properly yeah that makes it sound like racketeering he just stole one dude's bobcat unless there was a lot more no no that was the tip of the iceberg yeah i think that was there was more like racketeering conspiracy to like steal shit and sell it steal shit and yeah i think maybe that wasn't the first bobcat he's fencing he's he's drove off on he's like they leave the keys in these fucking things uh may 17th 2010 uh john wilson
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He thought they were having an affair. By the way, they weren't having an affair. Oh, John's just- John is a little paranoid. Yeah, a little jealous. So Wilson, because he's so enraged over this alleged affair- Insecure. He attacks his mother. Yeah? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
she has nothing yeah not what you expected me to say right attacks his mother it's a mad lib and stabbed her in the neck wow stabbed his mother in the neck yeah florida's not crazy no no this is very normal behavior this is totally way to hear how this all ends it's even crazier then he went over to ashley palo's house to kill him too he's i'll kill this motherfucker well i've already stabbed my mom anyway
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Later on, Wilson said, quote, I completely lost my goddamn mind. Clearly. There's no way of getting around it. No. At least he said it, though.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I completely lost my goddamn mind. He said that with a shrug. I don't even. I have no idea. Hands up. Whatever you want to judge me on it, I don't know. I guess guilty. I mean, I lost my goddamn mind.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Wilson's assault on Paula was interrupted after a neighbor witnessed the fight and tried to intervene. Wow. And then the cops came and, you know, it was a melee and they took this guy to jail. And later on, he said he completely lost his goddamn life. So, Ashley, at least for once, he's a victim and not a victim of violent crime. Yeah, yeah. No, nothing happened here.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So then Thanksgiving 2010 comes around. Ashley, during Thanksgiving, he talks to some people. He talks to his dad, talks to a friend of his.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Guy tried to stab me. Haven't been arrested recently. That's good. So you in the mental hospital? Nope. No, I'm doing all right. That guy carved up his mom, too. He did. He cut her up good. This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp is fantastic. And you know what else is fantastic? The holidays. I love it. I love the holiday season. I love December. I love lights.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
But before that, shutupandgivememurder.com is the website. Get your tickets for 2025. Yeah. The announced date when all the cities and dates will come out is December 17th. There's like a pre-sale on the 18th. They go on sale totally publicly on December 20th. So get in there. Get your tickets. Get them early because they tend to go fast, as people found out this year.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I love trees. I like cold. I like it all. I want it all. The snow. I want all of it. That's right. It's nice and cozy. There's a thing here, though. Therapy is a good way to bring yourself this comfort that never goes away. It's not just one month out of the season. It's all the time.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
We are proponents of better health because we're big proponents of therapy and big proponents of something is eating you up. What should they do, Jimmy? Go get help. Go get help. Talk to somebody about it. It's not going to hurt. It's going to be better for you. Absolutely. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. Do it up. It's entirely online. It's super convenient.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
It's flexible. So find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash SmallTownMurder. Now back to the show. Christmas is coming up, James. Did you know that? It is coming up. That's very important. You know what people should do around Christmas? Oh? You need shopping money.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
And the thing is, sometimes you're going to find money in places you never thought. Like where? Like subscriptions that you're paying for that you don't need to pay for because you don't even know you're paying for them, but yet they're coming out of your account every month. How can you fix that? Rocket Money is what helped me out. That's the thing.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's rocketmoney.com slash smalltownmurder, rocketmoney.com slash smalltownmurder.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So it's like a turkey on Thanksgiving. So he talks to people on Thanksgiving. And then kind of after the 28th of November, he kind of just disappears kind of. But that's not that unusual for him. Yeah, the man's been in the psych ward. He's a little flaky when it comes to work stuff. Sometimes he'll stay home and drink and that sort of thing.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, so he's not the type, if he doesn't show up Monday morning, they don't immediately send the fire department. They wait until Thursday afternoon to start calling him and knocking on his door and shit. So December 7th, one of his employees, a young woman, contacted police to request a welfare check on Ashley Palo, saying he hadn't been to the office in days.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
And he had like an appointment for the last couple of days. He usually doesn't miss that kind of thing. So it's like this is aberrant behavior even for him. So they said she said once. Well, once I left his workplace, I was still friends with some of the other people who worked there. I tried to call Ashley and it just went straight to voicemail. She at the time didn't even work for him.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She just knew all the other employees because she used to work there.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, so she said, I'll call him, and it went straight to voicemail. So that's what she did. So that's why she called for a welfare check. So when investigators arrived, they noticed right away there's several packages on the doorstep. Uh-oh. So it's 2010. Everybody's got packages. So right away you notice, okay, well, he probably hasn't been here in a few days. Yeah. But who knows? Maybe.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
We are so excited coming to some places that we have not been in a couple of years. Yeah. And some brand new ones. And a couple of brand new places we've never been before. We're going to try them out. We're going to take a ferry, everybody. There's a hint for you for one of them. Hopefully. Hopefully. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com is where you get all that.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
People could leave. They can go play. He's an adult.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
You might not see it for a minute. Who knows? And also, you know, he drinks a little bit and he might be. Well, unreliable. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, whatever. So, they said there's no damage to the door or any kind. It doesn't look like anybody was breaking in or anything like that. So they said that from what they heard, that his home is normally in disarray. So it's going to be a mess.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Everybody told them it's going to be a mess in there. Beer bottles.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Half-eaten beef and cheddars and shit. It's going to be bad. It's going to be hard. You're going to have to move some stuff to figure it out. And they said they could tell it looked messy inside. One of the cops said one of the back doors was open. The deputy freely walked in to check on his welfare, and that's what we hear is normal here. The house is usually open.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So he leaves his back door open all the time here. So they go in. They don't see him. He's not in there. You expect me to go, and there he was, dead in the thing. No, he's gone. They go, okay, he's not here. Nothing appears to be missing. TV's in place. All valuables are all there.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Including his vehicle is in the driveway, and his keys are on the counter.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So that's strange. So they talked to his family. The cops get a hold of his family out of state, and they ask them, when's the last time you talked to him? Maybe he's at home with his family or something. They said, no, we haven't talked to him since Thanksgiving. It's the last time he called. So his family was very concerned, too. His sister said his car was there. His keys were there.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I watch too much oxygen to know that when somebody goes missing, it's not great. She's just sitting there going, my husband's going to kill me. My husband's going to kill me.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Just fucking knife at her chest, peering over at her husband, waiting for him to make a wrong move. Don't you dare. I will stab you up. Don't you even worry about it.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So then they further, they're like, okay, well, he's not in the house. His car's here. No one's seen him. He's not at work. All the places he would go, he's not at and hasn't been.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So they are like, all right, well, let's search the rest of the property for clues, basically. So they search all in the backyard. And in the backyard, they find a custom hurricane shelter.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, so they're like, okay, well, we'd like to take a look in there. And there's a lock on it, though. It's locked. So they had to break it open. It's there. They break it open. When they walk in, they immediately notice that there is Ashley. They found him. He is laying inside. Oh, okay. dead as can be, wrapped in a rug with a bag over his head.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Definitely also listen to our other two shows, Crime and Sports and Your Stupid Opinions. Listen to people's dumb reviews from all around the internet. It's amazing stuff. And then you also should get Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of the bonus material. It's a lot, too.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's not a suicide. No. His body was decomposing. Padlocked in. Yeah, padlocked in, body decomposing, because, I mean, it's December, but it's still Florida. Right. But it appeared his clothing had been burned, but not by fire. By what? That's the weird part here. I'll read from the police report. It says, was called out to the scene for the suspicious death.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Katonji Brown Jackson's lovely one. The year's best fiction like The Women by Kristen Hanna and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. Right now I'm listening to Starkweather by Harry N. McLean about the murderer Charles Starkweather. It's pretty good. I can recommend that to you as well. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Upon arrival, I was directed to the fallout hurricane shelter located on the northwest part of the property. The shelter contained a white male lying face up. The head was facing south and the left facing north and the feet facing north. The body appeared to be decomposing. Say again? Body appeared to be decomposing. What? The head facing what? The head facing south, the feet facing north.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
wow what that means his head is on backwards what head facing south whichever way you're if you're laying down whichever way your head is facing your feet are facing the opposite way are they wait what aren't you aren't my feet what wait hold on if you lay down on the ground uh-huh your head no matter what direction it is your feet are the fucking opposite direction pointing because you're pointing in two separate directions
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Because you're sitting up looking in the same direction. If you were laying flat on the ground.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
It's not which way his eyes are looking. Oh. What do you think, he's standing there? I thought he was like wrapped in a rug standing in the corner. He's laying and lying face up. All right.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Am I confused? No, it's you. All right. The body also had long pants pulled down. Oh? and was on what appeared to be a piece of carpet. The body appeared to have been placed in that location. The body was removed and transported to the medical examiner's office. When the body was removed, it was determined the body had also been burnt. Huh.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Due to the condition of the body, there was no immediate signs of trauma. So, yes, they figured out later on that he's been burned with acid.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He's had acid poured all over him. Chemical burn. Yeah, burned his clothes, burned his body.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So that's fucking up the decomposition, too, making it happen faster.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So the autopsy here, the medical examiner performed the autopsy. They say the identity was verified due to fingerprints. They say that Ashley died due to manual strangulation. Yeah. Homicide. Yeah. Yeah. A state fire marshal investigator looked at the photos of Ashley's body and advised it appeared to have been burnt by indirect heat, not of an open flame. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Anybody $5 a month or above, you get a giant back catalog, hundreds of episodes you've never heard before, and no one has unless they subscribe to Patreon. New ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small-town murder, and you, my friends. Get it all. That's right.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
The detective conducted a search of a three-county area for recent structure fires but was not able to find any fires which matched the time frame of the homicide. So, like, maybe he was in a fire and they took him out and put him over here, but no.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, that didn't work, so... By the way, that employee that reported him missing, they go back to her. They're like, you seem to know shit about him, so what do you know? They spoke with her. She said, fuck, I didn't fucking do it. They were like, you're the one that called us. She had a totally rock solid alibi. So definitely wasn't her that killed him. She did, though, offer a potential lead.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She goes, I know a guy who tried to kill him six months ago, John Wilson. Right. Maybe go see that guy. So they go, all right, well, let's go find John Wilson. He's not in prison. He's 29 years old. Turns out he's in jail. Right.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
For fatally stabbing his 56-year-old mother. Mom's dead. He's definitely not. They said definitely not him. He's got the best alibi ever.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
In prison. Yeah. They said at first look, there's no connection with that crime back in May with this one, the police said. So the investigation, they asked whether Ashley had any known enemies. And they found out, quote, there's a lot of people that did vent some frustration with the advice that he gave and the taxes that he completed for them that we are aware of.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I guess he gave the wrong advice to a lot of people in their affairs. Really? So they went around talking to people to see if anybody's mad at him. And the clients were like, Oh, good. Fuck that guy. Literally, they were like, I wish I would have fucking done it. Tell me I could write off my summer home that day. God damn. Yeah. I don't do any business out of it. He should have known that.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
The cops said, we know that Mr. Paolo was around for Thanksgiving. We know there was some interaction with him on Thanksgiving Day. We just want anybody that saw him who might have been with might we might have been with on Thanksgiving and the days following Thanksgiving. That's what we need help establishing when he disappeared. Exactly.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
They say that he lived alone, worked out of his house a lot, which was messy. They said, we know Mr. Apollo did taxes for people. He did engage in legal advice to people. He interacted with a lot of people in our community, both on the side of law and against the law. So there's a lot of people that could kill this guy, basically. The suspect pool is huge.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
This week, what you're going to get for Crime and Sports, we're going to do another episode of Bad Sports Songs, which is going to be so fun. We're going to hear athletes trying to rap and sing. Giving it their best. Trying as hard as they can, and we'll play them and laugh at them and rewind it.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So his family, his mother offers a reward. His mother was 81 at the time. Pearl Palo here.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
81-year-old named Pearl and his father David, who's 86 at the time. They put up a $50,000 reward for anyone with information leading to the arrest and conviction.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, that's big time. David's dad said he sounded like he was fine when he talked to him the day before Thanksgiving. He said he cracked a joke or two. So they're looking around. These sheriff's officials, they're looking into everything, finances, anything that could be. I mean, they have no clues. So then they learn that back on December 3rd.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
One of his employees tried to cash a $1,250 check at a SunTrust bank, but the bank wouldn't cash it because the signature wasn't consistent with Ashley Palo's signature card. So they said they did a search of his records. It was found that checks were cashed by a Michelle Lockridge. Michelle. Michelle Lockridge, an employee of Ashley Palo on 12-3-10. Lockridge attempted to cash the $1,250 check.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
They said interviewed bank teller Gerba Amil at SunTrust Bank here. Gerba Amil told me that on or about December 3rd, Michelle Lockridge attempted to cash a check on the account of Ashley Palo for the amount of $1,250. Gerba Emile told detective that she had has had many dealings with Ashley Paulo's accounts and stated the signature on the check did not look correct and appeared to be forged.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Oh, she told the detective that she compared the signature on the check against his signature card and said the signatures did not match. The also said that she called the clerk here, the whatever the fuck the.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
teller called uh ashley's cell phone but there was no answer uh which she said was very odd for ashley not to answer the phone for the bank if she calls him he answers so michelle lockridge who the fuck is that want to know michelle lee lockridge is her name she's 40 years old she works for him and so does her boyfriend live-in boyfriend thomas barnard who was 34. So these two both work for him.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Barnard does handyman-type work, and Lockridge does clerical shit for his law shit. Now, they live together, romantically involved. They said they last saw Apollo on Saturday, December 27th, dropping off his car because he had gotten too drunk the night before at a dinner to drive himself home, which doesn't sound like him. Sounds like he'd give it a whirl.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Listen again. Remember Gaza's Fog on the Tyne? Yeah. It's that for an hour. You can't beat it. So bad. Then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about remote viewing, which is when the CIA thought that if you concentrate hard enough, you can see into a cave 5,000 miles away. And guess what? Didn't really work very well. But we'll talk all about that and more.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He's like, I think I can get there.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So Barnard said the two went to work on Monday, November 29th, him and his girlfriend, but Ashley Paula wasn't there. But then Lockridge claimed she said that he was there, but it was just locked in his room. So their stories together don't match up with each other, which is weird. So that's strange. Then they look into them a little bit more.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Barnard and Lockridge both have a pretty extensive criminal history. Lockridge, a really good history. Really? She's the worst. Oh, yeah. She recently served 10 years in prison. Goddamn. Stemming from charges of fraud and was currently on probation.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She's got all sorts of shit, dude. She is fucked right now. So now they're really looking at her pretty hard. So they... They sit him down and say, let's do some interviews. Because that was just casual. They showed up at their house. Hey, have you talked to him? Yeah. They got conflicting stories. So now they sit him down. They interview Michelle first.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She said she went to work, 1129, but didn't see Ashley. She said she thought he was at a court hearing for the day. Now, the first time they talked to her, she said he was locked in his room. She said that when she left that day, she locked up the house. She said she went to work on 1130 the next day, but the doors were locked and Ashley Powell wasn't home.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So Michelle told the police that she tried to call Ashley's cell phone several times, but he wouldn't answer. Lockridge was asked how she was paid. She said it was once a week. She was then asked how she was paid on 12-3 if she stopped working for him on 11-30. Yeah. If you haven't seen him to that, how'd you get paid on 12-3? She said she was paid in advance on 11-26, November 26th.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Asked if the check was for the amount of $1,250, she said yes.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So then they asked Michelle if she went to Ashley's house to ask him why the check wouldn't cash. She said no, she just went home.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Okay. Now, at that point, they began to point out some inconsistencies in her story, and she, quote, became angered and wanted to leave.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I'm done with this. So then they go, let's bring Thomas in since these two don't coordinate shit. So they interview him. He said he spent Friday night, 1126, with Ashley Palo, and he said that he went out. They went out to eat and have drinks. Barnard said Ashley Paula was too impaired to drive home, so he drove Ashley's car, dropped it off at his house, and drove home.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Now what do we do? Drop this off. I'll go over there.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
No, fuck no. This is Florida drinking. We just drink. Barnard said that on November 27th, the next day, he returned the car around noon. He said he hung out and smoked some weed and had some drinks with Ashley, leaving at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. So from noon to 3, he was drinking and smoking Crossfade. He's a tax lawyer. A fucking 2 p.m. Crossfade. That is some shit.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. The end of the regular show, anyway. So that said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say? I think it's time to clear the lungs. Let's all arms to the sky. Let's all shout.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He said that Barnard said he was called on 11-28, so November 28th, by Ashley. So he said, Ashley called me on the 28th. Thomas Barnard said Ashley was wanting him to purchase some crack cocaine for him.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
oh ashley gets after ashley likes to party my god man uh barnard said he would usually get it for him but he was working on his relationship with his girlfriend michelle and did not want to leave the house they're having a little team building yeah we're doing some stuff we're doing a fucking a joint therapy session over the phone here figuring out our love languages i'll be over with the crack later
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, maybe a little later. Barnard said he went to work on Monday, 1129, and Ashley Palo wasn't home. Thomas Barnard said that Ashley Palo's bedroom door was deadbolted as if he left the house. Barnard said they worked the rest of the day, locked up the house and left. He said they returned on November 30th, but the house was still locked up and Ashley wouldn't answer the phone.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Barnard said he already had a job lined up and he was upset with Ashley Palo because he's done similar things in the past. He's like, I don't even care. I got another job lined up.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So because of the inconsistencies with Michelle's story, they go, let's bring her back. Let's talk to her. Let's bring her back a second time. She's fun. See if we can get her to say anything. Let's get her pissed. Let's get her. Well, let's see if maybe she thinks about it. Let's get her good and mad. Let's see if maybe she'll spit something out at us here.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So she said that, again, she said that she and Thomas went to his home, Ashley's home, on November 28th in the morning. And she said she went there by herself and got a call from Thomas. Oh, and he told her that, quote, something bad happened to Apollo. Oh, there's a crack. That's something something bad. She said that Thomas returned to their Vero Beach home.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
But because Thomas wouldn't tell her what happened, she just went to Ashley's house. OK, so they said that apparently this, by the way, Michelle initiated this. She called them and said, I'd like to talk to you about this. She then said that Michelle said that Thomas admitted to killing Ashley on Sunday, November 28th.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, well, she's got other charges and everything else. She just did 10 years, so she's doing more fraudulent shit.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, so I guess Thomas had told her that he choked Ashley Palo in the front office, which is located inside the residence of his home at 6405 Oleander Avenue. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
murder let's do this everybody let's go on a trip all right we are going to florida hell yeah yes which um it is freezing right now so yeah doesn't sound too too terrible uh we're going to fort pierce florida Where's that at? That is on the south. It's southeast. It's north of Palm Beach.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
uh michelle told uh the police that thomas took ashley's cell phone and kept the phone in his vehicle until a search warrant was served on their residence at which time he disposed of the phone okay so basically his phone and that's perfect for the cops because now you can have thomas's phone and this guy's phone in the same place watch him move ping in every tower so you know he had the phone which is interesting
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Cell site locations on both of Ashley's phones confirmed they were transmitting at the same tower at Indian River and St. Lucie counties at separate times. So one of his phones was with him and one of his phones wasn't. This fact indicates simultaneous movement of both cell phones in proximity to the particular cell towers. Not bad. Interesting.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Michelle then told us that she went to Ashley Paolo's home on Monday, November 29th, and saw what she believed to be Ashley's body rolled up in a blanket she told us that her daughter saw Thomas Barnard hide something at the base of a tree on the property of the child's babysitter he hid some something to do with this murder under their babysitter's tree weird That's weird.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Well, no one will look there, I guess. Michelle Lockridge then told the cops that she believed Thomas was hiding drugs and searched the area described by her daughter. Michelle told us she found two master keys and a key to a deadbolt.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She took the cops to the location where the keys were recovered, were there, and two master lock keys and a deadbolt key wrapped in cellophane were found. The items were taken to the St. Lucie County Sheriff's Office where the master keys were matched with the master padlock found on the hurricane's shelter. That's not good. Not good at all. Michelle, although she knows where all this stuff is.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's the thing. Michelle also told the cops that she returned to Ashley Palo's residence on... on the 30th there and Ashley Paulo's office was in disarray as if a struggle occurred in it. Michelle said that the desk chair was on its side and Ashley's vitamins were scattered about. Michelle said there was a dried thick red substance on the carpet next to Ashley Paulo's desk.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She then described the substance as looking like dried makeup. No, she, I, yeah, I don't think so. She cleaned up the red substance with OxyClean. That's a good commercial. Oh, That's a good commercial for OxyClean. It'll get dried blood up.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Billy Mays, who's dead as fuck. She said that she found Ashley's body wrapped in a blanket with a plastic bag covering his face in a bedroom closet. She said she was very upset and sat crying next to the body. Why would you do that? You would run away and go cry in another room. You wouldn't sit next to him. It's not your mother.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I don't know. I'm not good with my Florida geography.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
On the west side, yeah. So it's probably on the east side. This is on the east side, yeah. Just opposite. Yeah, it's over there. Probably, I would say. Yeah, it's about two hours and 45 minutes to Miami.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Drive straight down. Yeah, it's a little out of court.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
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Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
It's about a quarter to a third of the way up the Florida line there. All right. About an hour 45 to Chilota, Florida, which was our last Florida episode. That was the webcam model madness. That was the crazy guy with the upset. Yeah, that was a weird one, man. This town population here, 46,409. Median household income here, normally the rest of the country, it's almost $70,000. Here, $40,323.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So she said, it's your boss. She said she tried to lift his body but couldn't. She said she called Thomas and said they needed to call rescue or tell somebody. I'm sure she was so distraught. But Thomas told her no. Thomas, she said, told her that she would be blamed for his death and that somebody else did this. Yeah. Somebody else. Just. Wild. Who? Someone else. They. They. You know they.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Wow. Anybody else. Anybody. So after Michelle returned to her house, Thomas reportedly agreed to go back to Ashley's home. When they went back, they argued over calling for assistance. So then they went back to their house in Vero Beach. Sure. The next day, they returned to Ashley's house where she said Thomas moved his body to the storm shelter.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She told Thomas to be careful but didn't help carry the body, she said. She said she pushed Paulo down the steps. She said Thomas pushed Paulo down the steps into the shelter and poured liquid lightning drain cleaner on him. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's what he burned him with, liquid lightning drain cleaner, which is, I mean, it'll fucking eat hair. Imagine what it does. It eats all kinds of scum. It'll eat whatever's in that pipe. That is something right there to pour on someone. She said that Thomas told her he was protecting her by pouring the drain cleaner on the body so she didn't get in trouble.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She said that Thomas said authorities would blame her for the death because she had a criminal record.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
You're a criminal, stupid. So they go to Ashley's house. The family give permission and the police go in. And they do a search again with black lights and luminol and all that kind of shit. And on the carpet by the desk, they find a stain consistent with the one that Michelle described.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Carpet removed and there's a stain all the way down to the concrete floor. Wow. And that tests positive for blood.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, it's maybe it's Maybelline. Maybe not. Don't think so.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Oh, so on the next day, they interview a guy named Christopher Higgins. He's a co-worker of Thomas and has known him professionally for two years. It's weird to say Thomas does professional things professionally. He's his work friend.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Who gets crack for his boss. Christopher Higgins told the detectives that he and Thomas had worked together from August 2008 to June 16, 2009. Christopher Higgins said he spoke to Thomas Barnard sometime before Thanksgiving, and Thomas was inquiring about a job. Thomas called Christopher Higgins on the Monday after Thanksgiving and said he needed to make some money to feed his family. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Okay, Christopher Higgins assisted Thomas J. Barnard in gaining employment at J&L Tax Group in Vero Beach. Christopher Higgins told detectives that on either Tuesday, January 18, 2011, or Thursday, January 20, 2010... Both he, meaning Higgins, and Thomas went to lunch together at Chili's in Vero Beach. Hell yeah. It's very Florida. Very bike week. Oh, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
The conversation during lunch and after lunch on the drive back to their office included a discussion about OJ Simpson. What? And his book, If I Did It, which I've read and it's stupid. Did it come out then? Yeah, it's dumb. It must have just come out. Yeah, it was a big deal at that point. That's the one where he puts a hypothetical description of the murders.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Oh, my God. Those are gross, by the way. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Nice. Those for your fucking spicy buffalo chicken fingers. So Thomas told Christopher Higgins he had to get something off his chest and proceeded to give a detailed account of how he killed his former employer, Ashley Apollo.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
What in the fuck is going on there? I don't know what's happening down here. Maybe it's just super cheap. Maybe all the prices, it's just stuck in the 90s. It's 1995 when you go over there. You don't need money. No, no, they still have Dell computer stores over there. Gateway shops with the big cow pots. Yeah, was that Gateway? That was Gateway. That was Gateway, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yep, they said. I got an if I did it, too. Let me tell you this. Thomas told Christopher that he and his girlfriend, Michelle, had been planning to kill Ashley Apollo and take over Apollo's clients for some time. Are you lawyers?
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
What the fuck are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
And she does clerical work. She's not even a paralegal, never mind a fucking lawyer. Thomas told Christopher that he and Michelle had joked about how Ashley had nobody and they could kill him and continue his business without anyone knowing.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Thomas told Christopher Higgins that he killed Ashley Palo on Saturday, November 27th. Palo had accused Michelle of using his credit cards and stealing from him. Thomas told Christopher Higgins that he told Michelle about Ashley's accusations, and Michelle told Thomas to kill him. He is accusing us of this, and she said, kill him, meaning Ashley.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yes, everyone here is on drugs.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I think everyone's on drugs in this story. Except maybe Higgins. I'm not sure.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That is, yeah, that's what I mean. Go ahead and kill him. So Thomas told Christopher Higgins he first attacked Ashley Apollo by striking him in the face, hence the blood, because you don't usually bleed from being strangled. He then grabbed him from behind in a chokehold.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Thomas told Christopher he then finished him off by strangling Ashley Palo from the front with his hands around Ashley Palo's neck while Palo's body was on the floor. Thomas told Christopher Higgins it took eight minutes to choke him to death. Jesus Christ, that's cold-blooded, man.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Thomas also told Higgins that he and Lockridge returned to Ashley's residence on Sunday, November 28th to dispose of the body. And he had purchased four bags of acid from a Publix located somewhere between Vero Beach and Fort Pierce. First of all, acid comes in a bag?
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
yeah what four plastic bags of acid he purchased i guess like a ziploc bag i don't know the parking lot was this in the store or like is it in like a box did a guy open a trench coat and sell that to you like what happened there is it packaged like fucking franzie of wine Like Canadian milk? I'm not sure how this works. I don't know. Maybe it comes in a nice box.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Thomas told Christopher Higgins he put Ashley's body in the storm cellar, poured the acid over his face, hands, and neck to erase any evidence of the attack. The acid was already starting to burn the body and created a large amount of smoke.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Smoke. That's how nasty this liquid lightning is. That's a good ad for liquid lightning if you want to clear your drain out. When Thomas closed the door to the Starham Cellar, he traveled to the Publix on Oslo Road and 43rd Avenue and found only one item on the shelves that fit the description of the acid that he had. So the cop went there to check it out.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
The item was called Liquid Lightning Drain Cleaner, manufactured by High Tech Laboratories. Liquid lightning is contained in a plastic bottle within a clear plastic bag. So that's how it works. Okay. Product information on the liquid lightning bottle says it contains virgin sulfuric acid, which is very corrosive and will cause severe burns to the skin.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That took a minute to remember that.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Fuck, two of them. Then they ended up finding where he purchased it. His cell phone records matched up with being on that store at the same time the purchases took place.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yep, that's it right there. And also video surveillance from a Walgreens parking lot located south of there. The video showed a vehicle matching Thomas's vehicle exiting the Walgreens parking lot, driving toward the Prima Vista Crossings Plaza, where the public store is located. At the same time, shit was purchased. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
The water found in the storm cellar was examined at the crime scene and had a zero pH factor indicating a strong presence of acid in the water. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
fuck that is wild um they also got a video from a home depot in st lucie uh here where st lucie west where they find thomas buying a chain and padlock to secure the body in the storm's bunker yep earlier in the day they you know they'd watch the video they're like well there he is they even show him receiving his change leaving the store checking his receipt and
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Making sure he wasn't screwed over here. So they arrest Michelle for bank fraud.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yep. She does that. She did everything there. She's in jail. And she, I guess at one point, had told Thomas she would take the fall for him if he would take care of her kids. But she needed to know exactly how he did it. This is how she got him to admit the whole thing.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Like you were going to use them in a truck bed as you went down the freeway at 85 miles an hour? You had a good fuel economy with it. Didn't want to get too much drag? Why would they make it look like that? No idea. Median home price here, $274,000. So not that high compared to the rest of the country, but high if you make $40,000. Sure is, yeah. Not too great there.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She said, listen, I'll take the fall. You take care of my kids. I'll take the fall. You just have to tell me exactly how you did it.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So my confession matches up with that. So that she said Thomas told her and then she went to police and said this is exactly what happened. Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. Now the charges, she faces a charge of accessory after the fact. And we don't know.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, they said the reason Thomas Barnard gave for killing Ashley Paula was that Ashley Paula was going to report Michelle Lockridge to the authorities for stealing. From him, Thomas Barnard also stated he and his girlfriend wanted to take over the business and that would be a great way to do it. Then they said they were suspects from the first week of the investigation, which they were.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So at trial for him, they present nine witnesses against him, including a pathologist, Dr. Roger Middleman, who told the jurors that Paolo died from asphyxiation. And all that kind of thing. They also saw a series of horribly gruesome autopsy photos.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
As you can imagine. They said red dots found in his eyes indicated he'd been deprived of air. This is a case of asphyxia. Yep, petechia, exactly. And they said it's consistent with manual strangulation. Okay. Now, will he testify? No.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He said, quote, I will not testify. What? Not going to testify. Dude, you have to talk. You have to refute her story.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
You're all you're going to hear from me. And he must be a real idiot where the judges, the lawyers are like, don't send him up there. That's going to be bad.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
They have to talk to go into. Oh, that's when character shit can come up. Hey, so 1998. This is somebody. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Where do you get crack? Can you get me some crack? They said, is that your decision? He said, yes, sir. Not going to testify. There's a bit of a little fight over whether a cellmate will be able to testify.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
See, I guess apparently, this is the defense attorneys, tried to get a cellmate of Michelle's to testify. And the cellmate said they had a story, but the judge would not let the cellmate testify. Okay. The cellmate was going to tell the jury that while incarcerated together, Michelle confessed that she had been having an affair with Ashley and accidentally choked him to death during rough sex.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
It took eight minutes for a grown man to choke another grown man to death.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's what I mean. Until he died? If you die before you come, that is a problem. So the judge said that the potential witness was a six-time felon and ruled that her testimony was not trustworthy enough to allow it.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
It's the whole thing. It didn't happen. Silly.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So during closing arguments, the assistant attorney general here told the jurors that Ashley was known to be an erratic but brilliant tax lawyer. I didn't hear brilliant anywhere.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
A little bit of history of this town. The first permanent settlement of the current city was in the 1860s. It was incorporated into a municipality in 1901. Okay. It was the largest city on Florida's Atlantic coast between Daytona Beach and West Palm Beach until 1970 when Melbourne was bigger. So it had some population here. There's a neighborhood of Lincoln Park, not Chicago, this one.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
A lot of people are mad that he gave them bad advice. That's what the cops said. but could be erratic and unstable and difficult to work for. So the prosecutor said, so what was his fate, this guy who was hard to work for? Well, he was brutally murdered and stuffed down into a storm shelter on his own property by someone who worked for him. And the defense lawyer, what do you even say here?
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He told jurors that the prosecutors were pinning the murder on the wrong person.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He said Michelle committed the murder during an angry rage. Not sexual now. Now it's angry. She said that Thomas is only guilty of helping his girlfriend dispose of the body and clean up the scene.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
The lawyer admitted to the jury that, yes, it was my client in that video you saw from the Home Depot buying the chain and padlock. That's all it is. He said that Barnard also, yes, sure, he did buy the sulfuric acid. That burned his body. But he said that Barnard's only crime was helping his distraught girlfriend destroy evidence and hide the corpse.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
And once in a while buying crack. But that's a different. He's not on trial for that, ladies and gentlemen. They said there's no evidence that Tom committed murder. That's all on Michelle Lockridge.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Now, the rebuttal from the prosecutor at the closing, they said that it's a great theory until you evaluate the evidence. Right. The defendant is guilty as he was indicted on a charge of first-degree murder. There you go. The verdict comes in. Six hours it took them.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Six hours. They find him guilty as shit. Yeah. Super, super guilty here. This is Ashley's sister, the one who said he was nonviolent, said she was very pleased with the verdict. She said it was tough, but in a way it wasn't tough. I wanted to see justice. I was here to see justice and it was worth it, but it was painful to get through. You got to see autopsy photos and all that. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So during sentencing here, his sister wrote a letter on behalf of the family, including his children and parents and all that, called Thomas a cold-blooded murderer who robbed them of a kind and gentle man. He said, this brutal murderer took our beloved Ashley from our midst without a care or concern. His premeditated acts are those of an animal.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Go to audible.com slash smalltownmurder and discover the year's best waiting for you. Music Have you ever found the house of your dreams only to learn it has dark secrets? Netflix new series No Good Deed follows three families vying to buy a 1920s Spanish-style villa that they think will solve their problems. But as the sellers discover, sometimes the home of your dreams can be a total nightmare.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
For the rest of the days of our lives, we'll remember and honor our beloved Ashley, and as we do, we'll remember the pain that we continue to suffer as a result of his untimely death at the hands of this killer.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So the judge says you, sir, may fuck off life without parole. Oh, it's over for you. Goodbye, 35. Holy. Dunzo, right there.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
For what? I mean, you didn't even get anything.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Did they think that Ashley wouldn't be around and they'd just keep continuing to cash checks and clients would pay?
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's what I mean. Well, they were going to do them. They can't. What was the plan here? This is a crack plan is what they had.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
30 years in prison for her as well. Because it's also, she's, you know, fraud. She's on probation. You can't participate in a murder when you're on probation. I'm sorry. Can't do it.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So the prosecutor afterwards said the jury, the five women and seven men, made the right call. He said, I'm very pleased for the family of Ashley Palo. Some have traveled a long way for the trial. I think the evidence was overwhelming that the defendant committed this murder. And indeed, the jury saw it our way. They took a while to do it. And it was a case with over 100 pieces of evidence.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So I don't blame them for taking their time sorting through it. Six hours. Yeah. That's not that long at all. Go in there and sign it. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Fucking part time is longer. So his attorney, though, Thomas's attorney, said that he plans to appeal. And he says he's obviously very hopeful of the appeal, but accepting of his situation. So Thomas at this particular moment is at the Tomoka Correctional Institute, Tomoka Correctional Institute down there in Florida. He doesn't look like he's doing too great.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
It's the area north of Moores Creek originated as Edgartown. All right. And so that was there. And a couple reviews of this town here. There's some fun ones for this town. I mean, you had to really, it's hard to go through them and pick them out. Here is five stars. Fort Pierce is a hidden gem. By the way, every sentence has three exclamation points after it. So they're very excited.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I think he's going to be there forever. And Michelle is at the Homestead Correctional Institute. And her current release date shows as 8-26-2039. Whoa, they gave her the whole thing. Yeah. By the way, she has like 20 aliases under her alias. Really? Just so many fucking aliases. Yeah. It's a lot.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
This is all rolled into her crime, her grand theft too, because her probation, that got tacked onto this.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
She's not a good person. We'll talk about her family too, because it's- What? Yeah. I got about two minutes to talk about this. All right. here at the Baron Hirsch Cemetery in Memphis. I assume he and his family. He was 58 years old. 2016, Michelle's in prison. Her son, Frederick Matthew Lockridge, is 15 years old.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He is ordered to be held on $500,000 bond after being waived up to adult court in connection with the death of his 10-year-old sister.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Her body was found Sunday afternoon in a white dress behind their fountain home where investigators said Lockridge placed her shortly after shooting her twice with a rifle.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Her whole family is destroyed because of her. The shit rolls downhill. And her father. I'm sure their father's not a great guy. If Thomas is a guy she goes out with, the father's probably similar. Lockridge pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder, despite allegedly confessing to three different accounts of how his sister died.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He was arrested Sunday after search crews found Isabella's lifeless body covered in towels in an abandoned bus behind their home. They reported she'd been cleaned and dressed in a white sundress after being shot twice, and they believe Lockridge sexually battered his sister.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
dude gross not a scruple to be found is that florida too absolutely yeah yeah are you kidding me uh when questioned lockridge confessed to killing isabella at about 3 a.m claiming he mistook her for a deer in the house in the house there's a deer in the house and it's a 10 year old girl oh i better there's a deer in the house i better shoot it and rape it yeah
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Because that's what I do when there's a deer in my house. I rape it. What the fuck? Good Christ. The teen later told police he mistakenly shot Isabella because he saw someone attacking her. Oh, God. He was aiming at somebody else. Then in his third statement, he said he accidentally shot her in the chest while showing her how to use a .22 caliber rifle, which is where he should have started.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's the most believable one.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Here you go. He said she started making gurgling noises. That's what he said. I did not know exactly how to deal with it, so I shot her again.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I didn't call 911. I shot her again.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's crazy. Accidentally hit her. Not a great shot. Never said I was. Wow. After the incident, he allegedly snatched the firearm in an abandoned home where the authorities later found it. The siblings were two of four children living in the house. Isabella and Lockridge had different fathers but were related through their stupid shit mother who's currently serving 30 years in prison. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He'll be prosecuted as an adult, by the way. And he was. And then he ends up in January of 2017. He pleads no contest to first degree murder in the shooting death of his sister. He is sentenced to at 15 years old. You young man may fuck off 50 years in prison.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Oh, he's going to be great. He's going to be doing fat.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He won't have SS tattoos on his face or anything, I'm sure.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He's going to do terrific down there. Oh, boy. So that, everybody, is Fort Pierce, Florida.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Wow. There's not a redeeming person in there. Ten pounds of murder in a two-pound bag is a lot to say here.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
There is so much to do. Okay. Wow, okay. More than any other town on the Treasure Coast. Still has a small town feel, and more people are realizing what a beautiful place it is. Housing is so much more affordable, too. Brand new homes in the mid to high 200s. That's pretty good. That's not bad. Yeah. So there you go. Four stars. Great place to live besides gunshots sometimes. Sometimes.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Wow. This is everywhere. So much spread out. So if you like that story or any of the stories, please tell the world about it. It helps us out so much. Get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars and say something nice. It's very, very helpful. Shutupandgivememurder.com is the website. Get your tickets for live shows. They're on sale next week, everybody. You bet.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Announce date of all the tour days is going to be on December 17th. December 18th is a pre-sale deal. We got that going on. Check the website. There's a pre-sale code, and we'll give it to you. Social media, too. You can do that at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. So get in there and do that. They will be on sale publicly with no code on December 20th.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
We're going to cities we haven't been to in a couple years. So get in there. Shut up and give me murder.com and social media. Do that. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. $5 or above a month is all you need to enjoy hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard. And new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murder. You get them all.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
This week, crime and sports, bad sports songs. athletes who can't sing or rap trying to sing or rap. It's hilarious. We're going to make fun of them the whole time.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
They all want to sing, and all the singers want to be athletes. Don't understand it. And they all, for some reason, think they can do stand-up comedy, which they can't. Even worse than the other two.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
And that's all there is to it. It's very sad. So do that. Small town murder. Remote viewing. We're going to talk about what the CIA thought was like an ultra psychic who can see currently what was happening thousands of miles away. Crazy shit. We'll talk all about that. Patreon.com slash crime and sports. If you want to follow us on social media, head over to the website. Drop down menus.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Give you everything. Keep coming back and seeing us each and every week. God damn it. Thank you so much. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
You know, besides the deadly projectiles flying through the air. It's great. And then this is the best too. But that's most places. Is it? No, it's not. It's really not.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
What are you talking about? Everybody out there, is there constant gunshots around you? There's areas I can tell you that have constant gunshots. Mostly downtown areas. It's not everywhere. No. It's really not. Rent used to be really cheap until recently. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I think that's why, yeah, and it's expensive other places in Florida now.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
It will. People find it. Here is one star. Fort Pierce has to be one of the worst cities in Florida.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
yeah there's gun shows it's everywhere uh the city is the definition of crime drugs and gangs there's 40 000 people here how many how many gangs can there be really if i had the chance to move i would if i could give it zero stars i would it is quite honestly a hell on earth oh jesus christ fires burning and poked in the ass with a trident that's rough that's a rough one
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I can't get out. I do not feel safe out on my own. Even in my neighborhood, which is one of the, quote, nicer ones, is terrible.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's the way they said it. Go out with a friend. Well, there's still gunshots flying around all over the place. My neighbor is constantly being arrested on drug charges. That's a real personal thing.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
When he's home from jail, he's always selling or doing drugs and always goes on rampages outside. Okay. I think this is just maybe if you move to a different house, you might be better off here. Imagine living next to that. It's terrifying. The entire city of Fort Pierce is terrifying. Yeah. Jesus. Sure sounds like it. They are scared of everything. Things to do here. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
The Fort Pierce Oyster and Sea Fest.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I'm all about this shit. Sounds good. This sounds great. It's along the waterfront in downtown Fort Pierce. Sure. Two-day festival celebrating Fort Pierce waterfront and all of its bounty.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Live entertainment and a bevy of arts and craft and merchandise vendors. It's free to come in. Good. That's nice. We love pets, but we ask that you please do not bring them with you.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's better than no fucking dogs ever, like some of them say.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
You got raw oysters, steamed oysters, Rockefeller Italiano, char-grilled oysters, fried oysters, oyster shooters with vodka or beer. But the entertainment schedule, that's what we're all about. When you're drunk with a belly full of oysters, which, by the way, I've done before, not recommended. Not too drunk.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
No Good Deed, starring Lisa Kudrow and Ray Romano, is now playing only on Netflix.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Yeah, if you've ever seen Mad Men, there's a time when Don Draper sets Roger Sterling up to get sick by pretending the elevator's out after giving him lots of vodka and oysters. And then he walked up a bunch of stairs and threw up everywhere.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I did that in Vegas one time, and it was like 110 outside, and that shit was fighting in there. I was like, oh, God, I got to go sit down in the air conditioning. This isn't good.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
They are boxing the vodka, and the vodka's winning, I think. So 2024 schedule here was Scott Benge or Benge, B-E-N-G-E. I don't know. He's playing the coveted 10 a.m. slot, which is what all musicians really strive for is to get on at 10 a.m. I'm done by lunch, babe. That's great.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
I don't know. That sounds country, right?
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Keith. Yeah, Keith is, yeah. Johnny Depp pre-stage. Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp pre-stage.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Debt. D-E-B-T? Johnny is in debt.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Like if you lost the case with Amber Heard, he'd be there.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He'd be Johnny Debt. And then they're going to play more Johnny Depp. Jupiter Trailer Trash will be there at 2 o'clock. I like that.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's fun. They seem funny. And then Bobby G. And then finally Bamboo will close it out there. Yeah, it's Bobby G. He plays a different horn. He plays the trombone. It's real boring. He plays an oboe and people are like. Real annoying. It's not really a solo instrument. You know what I mean? So that said, let's talk about some murder, shall we? Let's do this here.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Bobby Bassoon G. He comes out with a big bassoon. He's like, come on. Like, this is not romantic. You're just playing the bass notes, man. This is not the alto sax at all. We're just playing the bass line to Ranchero songs over and over again. So let's talk about a murderer. Let's talk about a man first. Now his name, he goes by Ashley.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
But I don't know if his name is Ronald Ashley or Ashley Ronald because in multiple places it's different. So I'm not positive. But he goes by Ashley either way. You can forget Ronald ever existed.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Maybe his middle name. Oh, God. One of them is his middle name. One of them is his first. But he goes by Ashley either way, so who gives a shit, basically. Ashley Palo is his last name. P-O-L-L-O-W. Like pillow with an O. He's born in 1952.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He graduated from Castle Heights Military School in Lebanon, Tennessee in 1970 and went to the University of Memphis and the University of Memphis Law School as well.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He's very successful. Yes, he's. Well, not in all things. We'll talk about this. But yeah, he's a tax attorney. That's what he does. He's admitted to the Florida bar in 1980. He's going to get married. We'll talk all about that in more detail a little bit later and have four children as well. And then get divorced also. Oh, damn it. Yeah, he's interesting.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
One of his daughters said, well, I guess he met his wife at University of Memphis and moved with her to Florida. There they got married and had kids, so he started his law practice down there. They later divorced. His daughter told people that he was a very doting parent, but he was something of a workaholic, so... I know how that goes.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
And I guess if you're starting out a law practice, too, you kind of- Yeah, probably panicked. You got five mouths at home you got to feed. Yeah, and also student loan debts, probably, and who knows what else. Anyway, yeah, his daughter said he did struggle with depression. He had a breakdown, moved to Fort Pierce, and gave himself a fresh start.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
So I guess after college and law school and all that, he kind of-
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
From what I hear, like law school, medical school, any kind of like specialized graduate school is very stressful from what I understand. I guess it would be because you put everything into this and you're at the tip of the arrow.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
That's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of stress, I guess, and your whole life depending on it and hinging on it. You've got yourself in all this debt. You've got to get out of it.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Oh, tons. Still passed. Tons. That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
Come right back. It's like a road test.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
It's like a road test. Yeah. I know people who've failed their road test four or five times, and it's like they let you just drive. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
If you fail more than three times, they should put like a special placard like you're a Domino's pizza delivery person on top of your car. This guy failed a lot. Watch for him. Took him a while to get back.
Small Town Murder
#554 - Murky Murder Motives - Fort Pierce, Florida
He knows just the minimum. So his sister, Ashley's sister, Jackie, described him as nice and kind. She said he's a very nonviolent person. His disposition is very laid back. He's a lawyer. Yes. So just keep that in mind. Very nonviolent disposition. Very laid back. Right. Cut to 1999. There is an article that is headlined, Lawyer Has Violent Past Record Show. Oh, violent past. That's nice, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I don't know why I thought it was North Carolina for some reason. So they he also Bergman Peter the son worked at San Francisco art dealers Butterfield's as well.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he works for them. His job as an appraiser means that he gets to live a fancy little life.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Do you know how many parties appraisers get invited to.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I was just going to say, the amount of very expensive wine and champagne.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. This is a different circle. There's regular people, then there's rich people, then there's rich people who own expensive art, which is a whole other strata of... Yeah, it's totally different. They're richer, number one, and they're cultured and shit like that. It's totally different. We would stick out like sore thumbs at one of those parties. We'd get kicked out in 15 minutes.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They're doing very, very well. We would get kicked out of one of these parties as soon as we asked where the keg was. That would be the end of it. They'd know.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Wow, yeah. This fucking thing looks like squiggles to me. I don't get it. Feels like I could do that, right? I think I could do that. James, let's get an easel and see if we can do this.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I think we could do it. So they're doing very well. Yeah, he's visiting mansions and galleries. And I mean, it's, you know, knows all the important people. And they all want to kiss his ass because he's a fucking painting.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So you want to give him a couple glasses of good wine first before he does anything. She now, Renette, has a distinguished career at the Nevada Board of Pharmacy. And then she was on the board, then founded a consulting service in Incline Village. And then she took a job as an international travel director for Talk Tours, a job that would send her to Europe for like weeks at a time.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So these two have quite the jet set and lifestyle here. Oh, shit. Jesus Christ. Not a lot of Monday through Friday.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Oh, they go to Europe all the time. Yeah. Like nothing. They have a beautiful house, a four bedroom. It's called a mountain retreat by many different publications.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
it's fucking wild so they're married in about 1987 they get married so yeah they're both in their 30s early 30s and so like even that's like responsible that's incredibly like they don't get married when they're 22 they both get married when they're like you know 35 and 34 yeah okay like they're very you know what i mean they're they're very different lifestyle man yeah
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he, Peter, is very knowledgeable about, obviously, antiques and art because he appraises for Butterfield and Butterfield auction firm. Both the Renette and Peter both love children, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Both very into giving their time and money to children's events and especially athletics. Peter gives a lot of money, donates it to the school athletic programs, and then spends time as a volunteer coach for incline high school athletic teams as well. I don't know how you'd have time for this. I mean, you're in Europe.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Totally. That's the other thing, too, is I don't get why of all people, why he doesn't go, you know, we could adopt. It worked out well for my parents, you know, but that never comes up, I guess. I'm appraising rich shit.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
There's a group of people, I don't know if it's a group, but there's a mass of people out there, though, that don't want somebody else's kid. They just don't. They want their own kid or no kid at all. Maybe that's who these people were. It just doesn't seem like it.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Are going to murder them.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. The main problem is you just don't know where they came from genetics-wise. You don't know if their father is Freddy Krueger or not. But you don't. What about this guy? You don't.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah, you do. Absolutely. And I guess if, I don't know, if you're donating your time and money already to strangers' kids, you might as well adopt one of them and fucking take them home with you. So the principal of the school said, we just all thought the world of both of them.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Everybody loves them. They travel extensively together. The Bergnas, they make four or five trips to Italy. Wow. This is a 10, 11 year period, three or four trips to England. They went to Switzerland as well. They paid for a 35 day vacation to Australia for Peter's parents.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That is like that's a payback. Thanks for the adoption.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
A month plus in Australia. Well, I hope they were retired or something. How the hell do you take thirty five days off? So she earned about one hundred thousand dollars a year in her pharmacy consulting business. And he made about that, if not a little more in his in his thing, too. And this is in the 90s. $200,000 a year for a couple in the early 90s is a fuckload of money. You're killing it.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I mean, absolutely killing it. Early 90s, you made $100,000 a year. You were upper middle class. That was doing very well. Then in about late 1997, Peter fully pays off the balance on their $500,000 home. Wow. Pays it off. Actual homeowner. 1998 comes around. They have a paid off house and all of this wonderful, nice things that's going on here. They're drinking wine, doing all this shit.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She lands back at the Reno Tahoe International Airport on May 31st, 1998. Yeah, to go from like Florence to Reno has to be a real kick right in the fucking teeth, doesn't it? Not even like, you know, a little bit at a time, like a decompression chamber, like bring you to... Bring it to Boston or something. Right into Reno. Right to the brown.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's a nice picture, but a better ass. Let me tell you something, sweetheart. I'll tell you something right now. Your tits are as pretty as this picture, baby.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Van Gogh ain't got nothing on your cleavage. Let me tell you one thing right now.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It's a work of art. Let me tell you. I got something else I could appraise. I bet those are about 10 Gs, huh? You went to a good doctor for those bad boys, didn't you? See?
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I was going to say, let me feel the weight. I got to put my hand under them. Now it's all right. Now we'll find out. And also, while in Italy, Renette had been looking at apartments in Italy.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. So this day, May 31st, 1998, Peter attends an evening charity function at Incline High School. Then he stopped at the AM PM gas station to fill up two five gallon plastic jugs for a trip to Las Vegas with gasoline. So cans, gas cans, extras. I get they were saying they were going to be driving to Vegas like the next day, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they say there is not a lot of places to stop between Reno and Vegas. So I guess if you want to keep extra gas with you just in case or I don't know, that's that's what he's saying. And it seems to be like logic that everyone accepts of like, yeah, you do that just in case.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It's a Ford F-150, 97. That sucks gas. It's a Royal Blue 97 Ford F-150, and he put those two in the back, and he picked her up from the airport around 11 p.m. She'd been traveling. It was a 25-hour trip. She'd been traveling for 25 hours straight. This is her landing spots, her fourth airport of the day. Oh, boy. Yeah, it's a long, long trip.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Because I think she had to go from Italy to New York, from New York to Denver, from Denver to Reno or some shit like that. Like it was one of those real circuitous routes here. So he picks her up. But instead of going home to Incline Village, he takes a turn off the Mount Rose Highway. This is a very mountainous area, by the way. A lot of mountains, as you might imagine, from Incline Village here.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So I guess this is like a scenic spot where you can see all the lights of the valley and things like that. So this is one of their favorite spots, Peter said. And they enjoyed looking at the Reno lights. If I just got home from a 25-hour trip, we're not stopping anywhere.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Take my ass home. Period. I want my couch.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Dude, six weeks on the road and 25 hours in a day. All I want is my couch at that point. Just give me my couch and my things and let me settle.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
No, I want to go in the fridge. I want to do shit I haven't been able to do. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he said that they discussed their marriage, I guess, and how he was frustrated with her traveling.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Apparently, he said, you know, it might be part of your job, but I'm home and I'm alone and I don't like it. I don't like being home alone for six weeks at a time, which six weeks is a long fucking time. That's a long time. You know, even if you're in the NBA, you come home every week or you're on the road for a week or two. You come home, you're there. This is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's so long. Yeah, 35 days blew me away. So I guess he says it ended on a good note when she agreed to cut back on her travel to save their marriage.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they're heading back down the mountain road just after midnight. They went up there to the scenic spot to have this deep conversation about their existence or whatever the fuck.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Now I'm going to cut to Sergeant Jim Beltran. Oh. He's a retired. It's always good when we make a hard cut from a couple talking about their marriage to Detective Sergeant Jim Beltran. He said, quote, I got a call at home. There was an accident off Mount Rose Highway. He said, in all my years, I've never seen anything like it. Now.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Peter Bergna, they pull up, the police pull up, they respond to a 911 call from Peter. And they pull up to find him clinging from the rocks hanging off the side of a cliff.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's how they find him. His Ford F-150 apparently had plunged through the guardrail, and that is 800 feet down below.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Two Nevada Highway Patrol troopers found the broken guardrail and noticed a baseball cap with incline written on it lying in the road.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
OK, they noticed that and they were like, oh, this must be the spot, I guess. No guardrail and a hat. So he was hanging on the rocks, like we said. And as he's rescued, he told the troopers, my wife was in the truck. You got to find my wife. She's 800 feet that way.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
probably yeah down there so they end up using the helicopter spotlight and they find this mangled destroyed wreck of a truck i mean this is it plunged down a 800 foot ravine it's fucking it's bad so they find that lying in the road are lying down there the mangled wreck and um inside is renette and she is she's absolutely deceased yeah she is uh Injuries too numerous to even chronicle.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're, like, back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I mean, it's insane. She's crushed in there. So they crashed through this. This was at the East Bowl of the Mount Rose Ski Tahoe Resort. This is basically what he shot down into. So apparently she was seat belted into the passenger seat.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And it plunged nose first, landed on the side of Slide Mountain. That's what this is, by the way. Slide Mountain and Incline Village. You knew what was going to happen in the story.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay and choo-choo. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station. Let's get on board and do this.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It basically first landed on the side of Slide Mountain 100 feet below the road and then tumbled another 700 feet after that.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Moving. That's terrifying. So they're asking Peter, what the hell happened? How are you here? What's going on? And he said the truck's brakes failed and he didn't have his seatbelt on and he had the window open. It was 60 degrees outside, but he had the window open because he was smoking a cigar.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
just kind of like hanging out the window smoking the cigar not hanging out but his arm out the window or whatever so yeah he said that the brakes totally failed they found him by the way about 80 feet below the road which is about 20 feet above the truck's initial impact point because it fell 100 feet then another 700 so it's like a picture like a little little kind of a little platform picture fall and fall landing on that not having enough to stay on it and then tumbling all the whole rest of the way down
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He said, yeah, the brakes failed, and I must have been ejected from the vehicle here out the window as it tumbled. He said, I started to brake, and it wasn't braking. I know I hit the guardrail, and the next thing I'd wake up, I'm on the dirt, and I don't see the car, and I'm yelling for my wife.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he said he found himself hanging onto the side of the mountain about 80 feet below the guardrail, and there he pulled his cell phone from his pocket and called 911. 911.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Well, thank God for good pockets, man.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Some loose pockets. Those are rough. Yeah, that too. So he said, my car rolled down the hill. My wife is in the car, is what he said on the 911 call. I'm sliding down the hill and I can't hang on. He was told to listen for the siren. Stay on the line. You can hear him yelling, Renette, Renette. He's yelling, yelling.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he said, yeah, they said that the the cap belongs to him, by the way, the incline cap, in case you're wondering the hat. That's his hat. Now, one of the people here, a care flight nurse, Phyllis Tejada, who attended to Peter on the mountainside. Said later on that he kept saying, my wife, my wife, my wife, I think she's dead. She said, but he didn't have any tears or anything.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He was just saying it like she thought that was a little weird. Very strange. She said that, quote, he said he was ejected. She asked him if he lost consciousness and he said no. Now, he said on 911 that he did. He said he was dead. Out and he woke up on the side of a mountain. So that's very interesting.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And the thing he was really concerned about, concerned about two things, Renette, obviously, and his fanny pack. He's very upset that he can't find his fanny pack. Very upset. One of the cops there said, I found it kind of odd, first of all, somebody would be asking for a fanny pack when a very short distance away his deceased wife is down there.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
We have, of course, a wild case for you, as always, on Small Town Murder and Small Town Murder Express. But if we only have an hour, oh, man, we've got to pack it in there. So it's a lot of murder. in a little amount of time, and we're going to pull it off. First, before we do that, very quickly, shutupandgivememurder.com is the website. Go there for your tickets to live shows.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Get my wife. If you can find her alive, great. If not, I do have a fanny pack with a couple. These cigars are good. Like, they're not bad. They're Cubans and I don't want to lose them.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
This cop said he never, there was no emotion. It was like he was just kind of had a blank stare.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's what he said. Then there's an ER nurse because he goes to the ER. You know what's hurt? He got a little ankle injury. That's what's hurt on him. Is that right? That's the only injury he has. His ankle's a little sore. Twisted it.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
No. Well, no, he didn't have it on.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah, yeah. You can be ejected.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
plunge down but you died with the car you went down with the ship I think is the point there is what you're trying to do so this woman from the ER said that Peter didn't seem distressed or distraught when he arrived at the emergency room she said that thereafter she heard Bergna on the phone having a horrible heart-wrenching sobbing conversation but when she turned around she was astonished because she he sounded so horrendous but had no expression on his face whatsoever
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She said he was just totally kicked back and just kind of looking around the room. But having this like, oh, my God. But like, just, you know, cool. Interesting. So another cop said about the guardrail, he said the hole ripped through the guardrail. He said it wasn't a scrape and punch through the guardrail. It was a T-bone.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Hit it front first. They didn't scrape a little and shoot off of it. So he said that was a little bit weird. Then the cop said that his wife was right there lying in a bag. He didn't say boo about his wife. He's more interested in what happened to his travel bag. And they said, you know, also she was wearing her seatbelt. Her airbag had been disabled. Oh, yeah. Yeah. With the key. Put the key in.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Pick it off. Can't do that anymore. No, they used to do that for what? If you had like a car seat in the front or some shit. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. That's your problem.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he was found, the suspicions start when they figure out he was found wearing a winter jacket and gloves. And they're like, that seems excessive for 60 degrees.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Sounds like someone who expected to be on the side of a mountain for a while.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They said just a fractured foot is inconsistent with being ejected from a truck as it careens over the rocks. Didn't even have a concussion or anything. Yeah, fractured foot. They said he was clean except for his backside. Yeah. Didn't even look like he rolled or tumbled or anything.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's it. Yeah, that's what they're thinking down the hill. One of the detectives said when you get pitched out of a vehicle, you're dirty. You tumble. The injections I've seen dead or alive, you're dirty. You're going to look like pig pen. Yeah. You're going to be tumbling. 100%, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
You're going to have to, whatever speed you're going, your body's going that too, and you're going to be all fucked up. He said there was no scuff, no skid, no brake fluids, no debris, no tire marks of any kind. If you knew you were headed to the edge, you'd be stomping all over those brakes. It's reflex.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That is where you go for sale for 2025 right now, February 7th, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. You are on deck. You're up first. Let's lead off this tour right, and let's pack this bad boy out. Let's get to that. It's going to be so fun. Next night, we're in Columbus also at the Davidson, which is a very nice theater, too. So get your tickets for those. Two very cold nights.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they said it also didn't make sense that the driver would have turned right directly toward the guardrail on the banked curve of the road, even if the brakes failed.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
This is very much like that Hawaii episode that we did, except that the lady was all upset. Remember that one where she did the same? She turned into the guardrail. This, by the way, if someone can fucking help me out with this, this exact story, someone did blow for blow in a TV show. And I thought it was Monk, the TV show Monk, that did it because I remember the exact thing.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I remember they showed up. There was a hat lying in the road. The guy was down there. He said he was smoking a cigar. It was the exact thing, but I can't fucking place what show it was. I thought it was Monk, but now I don't think it is. If anybody can tell me, holy shit, that would help a lot. Hit me up on Instagram or something and let me know.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So, by the way, later on the next week at her funeral, people are asking him how her how his foot felt. He said to somebody, it wasn't hurt that bad. And I wish I had been hurt worse.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Which I guess that, you know, a guilt feeling somebody would have maybe.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Maybe. So the morning after the crash, this is, you know, the next late morning here. Yeah. They sit down with Peter at the police station and he gives them the rundown. He said, yep, she was in Italy for about six weeks. I was excited about seeing her, picked her up. We talked often on the phone the whole time she was gone. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He said, I left my incline high school booster club function around 9 p.m. to give myself plenty of time to get to the airport because I knew I had to stop at the a.m. p.m. to fill up some plastic gas containers in anticipation of our trip to L.A. a few days later.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Or not LA, Vegas. So a few days later, but he needs them on the way to the airport. Right now. He said Delta Flight 803 got on the ground and was at the gate by 1015. He gave his wife a big hug, then drove up the Mount Rose Highway toward their inclined village home.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He said that he turned off State Road 878, an access road that dead ends into the parking lot of the Slide Mountain side of the Mount Rose Ski Tahoe Resort. They said skiers and hang gliders use the short, isolated scenic road to do their thing. They jump off the fucking mountain. He said it was one of our favorite spots. He said they had a lot to talk about, catching up, chit-chatting.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He said, we've been discussing the idea of me having problems with her being gone because I'm lonely. I like being with people and there's a real problem. He said, I'm a lonely guy. You know, you have a great time and it might be part of your job, but I'm home and I'm alone and I don't like it. He told them. That's what he was saying.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And I said that the end of the conversation was pretty exciting for me because she said she would cut back on her travel and she'd be home with me. So he said it was him who suggested going down the road to a spot overlooking the lights of Reno. A parking bay was on the right side of the road with a guardrail separating the pullover from the mountain slope.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's it. He said, it just kept going. It wouldn't stop. He said, I started panicking and I'm breaking and I'm breaking and I'm pushing as hard as I can and nothing's happening. Nothing's happening. I just kept going. It wouldn't stop. Hit the fucking e-brake, you idiot. Do something.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Shut up and give me murder.com. Get on in there and come out and see us. So excited for that. Also, Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports, which is the name of our other show you should be listening to if you don't already listen to it. But that is where you get all of the bonus material. Mm-hmm.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I'm putting it in fucking park. We'll leave the transmission back there, but we're stopping. You know what I'm saying? It's fucking happening right now.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Don't give a shit. It's better than flying off a mountain, right? Yeah. We'll worry about the truck later. So he said, when I finally figured out where I was, it was on the sand. I was sliding down the hill. I'm trying the best I could, looked up to see if I could see the truck, see a fire, see something, yelling for her. So he said, I had my phone on me, luckily, so I called 911.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He said, it took them so long to get to me. They said when they arrived, by the way, he had his head resting on his phone because they was listening. He said, I can't move my legs, but I'm okay. Find my wife. So they do, 795 feet below. And the cop said it was lying on what had been its roof with the nose of the vehicle pointing back up the hill.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And it was pretty crumpled up from the tumbles that it took down the hill.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And backwards. Upside down and backwards is not good.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Shit. That thing got all fucked up. I have a picture of it, too. It's disturbing. So the cop said there was some grief when he told us, I tried to stop, I tried to stop, but it was nothing more than words. He looked like he was hyperventilating, but he wasn't. He spontaneously said, I don't cheat on my wife. Out of nowhere. Okay. What's the lady's name? The cop said, it was like, ding, ding, ding.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
If you're ever in an interrogation, don't answer questions that aren't asked of you, first of all. That's number one.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Answer the questions as concisely as you can. Try not to ramble. And don't give extra information because that sounds terrible for you. It's not good. That is fucking wild. He spontaneously said, I don't cheat on my wife. So they take a little tactic here where they're like, let's give this a shot. It's legal to lie to people, and they do.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They said they told him that a caretaker on the mountain was nearby at the time of your alleged conversation, and he's come forward to it with us to tell us what he heard that night.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He overheard. He was hanging out nearby. He heard yelling. There's a lot of yelling you guys were doing, right? He heard you guys. He wasn't even right by you when he heard you. So what's up with that? I thought it was a nice conversation. And the cop said, we just threw it out there. It set him back. We watched his micro emotions, his face, his hands. It all looked like somebody had slapped him.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get just a gigantic back catalog, hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before. Then new ones every other week, including this week, where you get one crime and sports, one small town murder, and you get it all, baby. That's right.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
The cop said he was told about the caretaker. The police told him about a caretaker that may have heard. At that point, his story changed completely.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. That's all it took? That's all it took. The cop said that's when he started admitting it was loud, that he was boisterous, and he swore. Oh. This is like someone saying, I've never even been in that lady's apartment. Well, is there any reason why your fingerprints would be there? Actually, I was there for like three hours that one day, and that's what this is.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I did do that. Yeah, I was just bringing her haram way, though, you know. That's it. So they said that, yeah, he was boisterous and swore. Then he said, we worked out our 11 or 10 years worth of marriage problems in an hour. So, you know, of course it got heated at times. But so the prosecutors are thinking, hmm, so they have marriage troubles. She's very much insured.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He's getting some money off of this. And yeah. Yeah, they don't know. They say the police think that he's angry because his wife quit her high-paying job as a pharmacist locally, where she was home at 5 o'clock every night, to become an overseas travel tour guide, a career that would keep her away for months at a time. Right. So that's what they're thinking.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They're thinking he was just mad at her, and rather than get a divorce and have to split all this up, it's easier just to kill her. So they said when Bergner couldn't answer the questions, his head would tilt a little. Oh. He said, like when your child says something that's not true. Oh, no, that's his dad, too, because they brought his dad in.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Because he said he wanted his dad with him. Oh. His dad's an attorney.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he said whenever Bergner couldn't answer the questions, his dad's head would tilt a little bit, like, Like when your child says something. Yeah. So he told police the one thing I did not want to be is alone. And now I'm alone. And the other cop says he admits going up there with his wife. He admitted having a peaceful discussion with his wife about problems in their marriage.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And that's what we got. They said, how about a polygraph? Maybe you'll do a polygraph. He said, sure, what the hell? Line me up. Absolutely. So they said he looked full of angst. They said that while you're doing this, they said you don't have to remember the truth because it is. You have to remember the lie. Right. That's easy for people to tell the truth.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
This week, what you're going to get for crime and sports, we're going to talk about Travis Rudolph, who is a recent NFL quarterback.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
The test was eventually ruled inconclusive, which happens with a lot of them.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It's just kind of a mess. A lot of times if they're on any kind of medication or if their emotions are all over the place, it comes out all messy. Sure. So, with doing some physical tests after this, they concluded that the vehicle was turned toward the guardrail at an angle of 60 to 90 degrees in order to bust through it like that, which is straight at it, basically.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They also said it was doubtful that a one-year-old truck's brakes would just not work at all.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Brand new truck. So they're like, that's weird. Then they said there was two unsealed cans of gasoline in the back, maybe to try to make sure there was a fire.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They were thinking that's possible. So, yeah, the investigators drive similar trucks along the same route to see how they would handle the turn and try to figure out, okay, if I'm here, I'd have to do this. The guardrails were tested at different angles of impact to try to recreate the hole made at the crash scene as well.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
player for a couple of years and just finished up a murder trial so we'll talk all about him he had some consequences a little bit of trouble there then for small town murder we're going to do the west memphis three part two find out how the hell we even got to the point of needing an hbo camera crew to come down and check this bad boy out so we'll figure all that out and more patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show too
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
One of the most consequential pieces of evidence was an asphalt mark found on his sneaker and the location of his baseball cap. His baseball cap was on the road.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's what they're saying, yes. A veteran accident investigator and reconstructionist said, I don't feel he came out of that driver's window or any other window, period. In my opinion, he came out of that car sometime before it went through the guardrail. And in my opinion, I would have to say he came out of that car voluntarily. He said, I don't believe that the brakes went out.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So, yeah, they said the investigator said it was first investigated as an accident. They said when this thing happened, we didn't even get called the crime scene people. They said there was a lot of investigating officers and people involved who felt this was a traffic accident. But then later on, they called them all in.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
all these investigators and said no they said you can start with no skid marks on the roadway but that's why I said his brakes didn't work so the fact that he wasn't killed or seriously injured was suspicious there as well the it's interesting here so they said that about his dad Peter's dad they said he had lived this career he knew exactly what we were going through he knew we wouldn't charge this case unless we could prove it he knew we believed he did it
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Talking about the dad. Yeah. So the investigator said, quote, this thing smelled bad. Yeah. It's such an old timey. I tell you, it smelled to high heaven.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It stinks. I tell you, it stinks. He said, we just didn't think we were going to ever have enough evidence here. So they said that other things, just to run down the evidence here, damage to his clothing was minimal, not what someone would expect for someone who tumbled 80 feet down a mountain.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah, like just slid his ass down the whole way. Okay. Is what they're thinking here. So they said that his airbag deployed, but there were no signs of bag impact on his face. So he didn't get hit with it. Very small amount of injuries. Obviously, there's no bruises or scrapes indicating he'd been thrown through the driver's side window.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They did find scrapes on the top side of the canvas shoe he'd been wearing. That could indicate it scraped across an asphalt road. The road at that point curves and is steeply banked, much as true like at an auto racetrack. It's that kind of thing. It goes elevated.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
A vehicle traveling on that road would turn toward the mountain, not outward through the guardrail down the side because it curves to the left, not to the right. Right. shoot off the mountain. They said that it would have to be steered through the guardrail. They said the wreckage of the truck, it had 23,452 miles on it, was airlifted out by helicopter.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They said they found no reason for the brakes to go out. It had dual brake systems, meaning if the front brakes failed, the rear brakes should hold and vice versa.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. And then no evidence of brake tampering. His driver's side window was in the down position, he said, because he was smoking a cigar. He told police he didn't wear a seatbelt ever. A switch in the truck allowed him to shut off the airbag on the passenger side because his wife was short about five feet. He was concerned about an airbag injuring her, which is fair.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a very cool place, Thrive Market. Yes, we are both looking to get into the healthy swing this year. The problem is I don't know what's in everything, and I don't know if even I'm qualified to even read the labels to know if that's good or that's bad.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
There's chemicals and things, and there's things floating around. I don't know what I'm doing out there. One of my favorite features, I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. Yeah, it's simple. You scan any item and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
You can't be the best $5 you'll ever spend a month. So that said, I think it's time, everybody. Here we go. It's time to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs. What do you say? Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We have to, yeah. We are going to Nevada this week. Been a while since we've been there.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding these safe, healthy foods. For example, like I'm trying to get my protein intake up. Yeah. for energy. I'm always moving around. I need stuff. And I love that you can filter their site by the high protein options. It's very cool. And you can personalize this portion and you can put filters on it and get ready.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
You should be ready for a junk free start to 2025. Get ready for it and head to thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash smalltownmurder, thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you all sorts of good stuff about Chime. That's what I'm talking about. There's so many extra fees you have to pay in life. Everything. You go to the airline, there's an extra ticket on that. There's an extra fee on there. Every fees and fees, hotels, fees, all this type of stuff. We're trying to make progress.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And the next thing you know, here comes another fee coming at you. And it's more money than you expected, and your whole math is thrown off, and it's awful. Learn more at Chime.com slash Small Town Murder. Chime is great with that stuff. I mean, you can't beat if things are a little tight, especially around the holidays or after the holidays. You need that money a couple days early.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
You go grocery shopping. You got a car payment due. There's so many things that don't. We'll be right back. Banking services and debit cards provided by Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A., members FDIC. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Boosts are available to eligible CHI members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs. And now, back to the show. This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January, it's a whole new slate. Clean. You bet. It is blank pages all the way around. Absolutely. And maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
A little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to fade away by February, right after New Year's, think of therapy as an editorial partner. There you go. That's a good way to put it. Helping you write new chapters and creating the story of your life that you should have, that you want to have.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's what it's all about. The one you deserve. The one you deserve. And we can't say enough about therapy. We all have problems and we all have issues and none of us are above. None of us have the right answer all the time. Exactly.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash SmallTownMurder.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
You can say that. They also said that when a vehicle strikes an object, the occupant would be thrown toward the object. So at the angle of the truck at the guardrail, they would have expected Peter to be thrown toward the passenger side windshield, not out the driver's side door. Okay. The force would have taken him that way, not the other way. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He also told police he was looking for a fire after the accident, but rarely does a vehicle actually explode or burn on impact. It's just in movies because it looks awesome.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It looks so cool. So they said, yeah, that's something seen in movies. They said perhaps three months after the accident as well, Bergman told Rick Riella, one of Renette's brothers, that perhaps he'd been hitting the brakes, that perhaps he hadn't been hitting the brakes after all, maybe accidentally hit the gas.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I had the milk and honey. Oh, absolutely. And desert and gambling and nuclear waste sites and you name it. Nevada's got it. This is Incline Village, Nevada. Incline Village, it's western Nevada, all the way over there by Tahoe, near the California border. It's about 50 minutes to Reno, if you want to go lose your money in a depressing city, that's the place to do it.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Which you would imagine 30 years of driving experience would keep you from doing that. But I guess not. So the police tested the guardrail piling up to see what force it would take to dislodge it from the mountainside. They did everything. They also have a guy named an engineer, a mechanical engineer named Robert H. Turner.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He says that in his opinion, it's not possible that Bergner had been in the truck when it went over the cliff. He said that if Bergman had been ejected from the truck, he would have had about the same velocity as the truck and would have probably landed the same place the truck landed.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He would have went with it because you're in the car. You're now a person that can travel 50 miles an hour because you're in a truck. That's it. You're traveling 50.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Exactly. Yeah. The truck disappeared. If it just fucking dematerialized, you'd be going 50 miles an hour. That's it. So now they do all this investigation. This takes months. Yeah. And then it takes two years.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And in the meantime, he got a $450,000 life insurance payout from his wife's insurance and started traveling the world. He also received $275,000 for her share in the family ranch where she grew up.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
As well. She he sold it to her brothers. Sure. So this was outside Manteca, California, which her parents owned. Now the kids all own it. So he made business trips or just hanging out. He went to London, Hawaii, Mexico, Canada, all over the place here. So then here they start trying to put something together, the prosecutors here.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They drove down the hill at 30 miles an hour, sharply turned into the guardrail, and they were trying to figure out maybe if that was what he did. So they said there was a mark on the top of his head. As he jumped out, he hit the button of his cap on the door jamb. If you've ever hit that little button on top of your hat, God damn it, does that hurt. Crush your goddamn skull.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's how the hat came off. They said there was asphalt on his shoe where he twisted his ankle. That meant he was out on the roadway. His cap was found on the edge of the road. It didn't blow off his head and land 30 feet above him.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
How did that happen? So the prosecution here, the district attorney is trying to put this together. They said after jumping to safety, they think he slid down the slope on his butt, found a branch to hang on to, and started sobbing before making the 911 call. Yeah. They said that her body suffered so much trauma the coroner could not note a specific cause of death.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And they said it was impossible to determine if she was dead before the car crashed through the guardrail or not. They don't know. She was so fucked up. They said, dead or unconscious, we couldn't prove anything. She was so messed up from the tumbling. She's flown from Italy to New York to Salt Lake City to Reno, and you're going to pull over on the side of the road to talk about your marriage?
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She was tired and could have felt comfortable falling asleep. He just pulls up there and does his deed. What the shit? They think she might have been asleep in the passenger seat.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Which would make sense after that day of travel.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. A lot of times you get somewhere and you feel like you want to sleep on the way home. I do it after the road all the time.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I always get like an hour nap in on my ride home from the airport. Always.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they said, we don't have any statements from the victim. We don't have any eyewitnesses. We don't have anything. They decide, though, through all of this science, that they're going to arrest Peter. OK, they said that.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah, they think he steered the truck through the guardrail, jumped out, hit his head on the driver's side doorway, knocked his baseball cap over, dragged his right foot and shoe on the pavement as he steered the truck toward disaster. They think he was like had his foot out the door and jumped out that way.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they said that, yeah, each time we got a report, it indicated a couple more tests to do. That's what they said. They said there were more interviews and more interviews and not being in a rush to judgment. It's a serious matter. So they said they took their time. They said his motive is he wants a wife to stay home with and he wants a wife who will have children with him.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
About 4 hours and 25 minutes to our last Nevada episode, which was Denio, Nevada. That was episode 499, Hermit Horrors. Remember the hermit guy who was killing people out in the desert? That was crazy. That guy was just killing anybody that came out there. The population of this town, 9,440. It is a wealthy little town. Let me tell you something.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Claiming that he intentionally and deliberately caused the vehicle to leave the road and go off the mountainside for the purpose of causing injury and or death to his wife. And so, yeah, they cast him as a capable person for the felonious and intentional death of their sister.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They want all the insurance money back. They want all that shit back. Yeah. So 2001, they take him to trial.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Been three years almost here. So one witness here who's known Peter about 10 years, her name is Joan Dunkley, told the court here that she was a volunteer bartender at the function and and that he started talking a lot about personal things that he'd never talked about before that night.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She said he was saying his wife was not at the function because she was on a trip to Europe as a guide, but she'd be coming home in a few days. He was really anxious to have his wife come home. All he really wanted was a wife and children. He wanted a wife who would stay home, be around, and he wanted to have kids. He had a similar conversation with two other women at the party.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Just going around complaining that my wife doesn't want to have kids with me, and she just goes off gallivanting.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I really want to love my wife and sit next to her on the couch. You want to fuck me? It's weird. It's very weird. So shortly before all this here, he also called a bank employee he'd met through a professional appraisal function and asked her out as well.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he's been looking around. This woman, Janet Mello is her name. She said, he asked me if I'd be interested in going to see a movie with him on Friday night. I thought it was strange. I didn't understand it. I didn't like it. I said, no, I knew he was married. Okay. Yeah. So I don't really, I don't blame her for saying that. That seems crazy.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She said that another woman who worked at the bank, the trust officer for Seattle bank said, said that she met him at a social function. This woman he ends up being engaged to after his wife dies.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Robin Russell. And they were scheduled to wed, and now he's having a murder trial instead. She said that she didn't think it was unusual for people associated with bank trust departments to be invited out by people in Peter Bergner's line of work. She said that was normal. The girl took it all wrong is what she said. She said that, you know, I met him at a social function.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She said it's not unusual for people working in those areas to be invited to concerts, movies, the theater, lunches, dinners, whether they're married or not. Uh-huh. Sounds like a fucking horny, nice industry they got going on there. She said, this is co-owner of the Christmas tree restaurant on Mount Rose Highway, said Peter and Renette were getting a divorce. She was through with him.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
This is a friend of Renette's. So on her side, she said she knew Renette through the American Association of University Women. And she said that they talked on the phone all the time and all that kind of thing. So there you go. She said she was buying things and talking about her trip. She was very excited about her trip. She's delightful. She was charming. She seemed like a very bright lady.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Median household income here, median household income, $131,914. Holy. Which is pretty good. What are they doing? The median home price is wild. Median home price here, $1,392,400.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they bring in that. They bring in all the physical evidence we talked about. And the jury comes back, the hung jury, mistrial. Three jurors chose nine to three in favor of conviction. Three jurors held out. One did not like policemen at all. This is a quote from the prosecutor. One did not like policemen at all. One didn't like the evidence. And one said it should be in God's hands.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
that's you're missing the whole point of everything, sir or ma'am. So now they're going to try him again, but he gets bail. He gets released from custody on bail in between the two murder trials. Yeah. He gets, they, they talk them into that. So I don't know. Friends of his, he's trying to get all of the people on his side. Friends of his said he had a great marriage.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Here we go. Now, the first time, they mainly said his main motivation was financial. So he had financial gain. But they kind of had that shot down a little bit because not only is he financially secure, he's also in line to inherit because his dad died during the first trial. Uh-huh. He's in line, his mother says, to inherit her $6 million estate as well.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And he's very old, and she's very old, and he lives in a paid-off house. So money isn't really a big motivator here.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Monetarily, this isn't changing his lifestyle, basically.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So this trial now, now it's a little bit different here. They bring in a neighbor of theirs. Oh. who testifies to seeing Peter aim a snowblower with full force at Renette a few months before she left for Italy.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She said that one day she watched Renette bringing baggage to her car and that Peter Bergna tracked her down with the snowblower and aimed it at her and shot it at her at close range and followed her, blowing snow on her as she walked. from the front of the house to the car and aimed it into the car as she opened the door. That is the funniest domestic abuse I've ever heard in my life.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Domestic violence, never funny. That one's kind of funny. If it was a joke, it'd be hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It's just weird. It's snow. It's a strange fucking thing. But that snow comes out fast out of those snowblowers. That shit could hurt.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's what I mean. It's a little much, but they said that Renette looked extremely upset and fearful. Yeah, she's trying to get in the car covered in snow.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Wow. So the neighbor said that she continued watching because she wondered if the situation would escalate and she might have to call 911 to help. Yeah. They heard from multiple women, the jury does, who testified that Bergner was hitting on them in the weeks leading up to his wife's death, including the night before she flew back from Europe.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
This is crazy. I don't know. And there's a lot of people like celebrities that had houses here. This is like a little weird. What's that spot in Idaho where they all gather and they have.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Six weeks after the tragedy, Bergner invited a woman to his hot tub. She said that he showed no sadness about his wife's death and that he snapped after she rejected him and he grabbed her breast.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Want to come to my hot tub? No, I don't. Fuck you and grab a tit. What a weird. This guy's weird.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Between this and the snowblower, he just has real weird reactions to shit. They heard from his first wife. He's been married before, who said she feared for her life while married to him. She described that he went absolutely berserk and screamed at her after she made hash browns incorrectly.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Wow. Just burn them and they're correct. They're hard to fuck up. It's a hash brown. This guy's a little crazy, I think.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's what I mean. Just burn them and they're good. That's all you have to do to them. This guy's a picky asshole. This is Rebecca Tillery, his first wife. She said that he portrayed himself to friends and family as outgoing, gregarious, and a really nice guy. and that privately he was extremely volatile and angry toward her.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She said that she constantly walked on eggshells around her husband and lived in fear. She said that money was pretty much everything to him and that she felt he gained his self-worth through money. Well, I mean, yeah, that's not hard to do there.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah, then they get a cellmate in here, Daryl Corsi. He testified that he and Peter had been housed at the Washoe County Jail and were in a Bible study group together. He testifies that Peter told him he had killed his wife because of financial issues and because she did not want to have children. There's alternating things whether she didn't want to have kids or couldn't have kids. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So we're not sure which it is.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
There's another one in Idaho, too, that's a ski place where they have a thing, too. Yeah, there's Jackson Hole and there's this place. There's a few of these spots throughout the West that are weird little celebrity enclaves. Strange. The motto here is information, inspiration, progress.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
She didn't want kids. Maybe she just didn't want it. Yeah. So he testifies also that Peter told him that Renette was unconscious when he drove the truck off the road and that he had jumped out the window. He said that Peter told him that he did not think he would be convicted because he had a really good attorney.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Next up, they bring in an expert, Dewey Willey, who does not sound like an expert in anything except maybe how to tap a keg. Possibly.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
That's it. I've already seen that thing a lot. One of the two. So he's the equipment mechanic fleet supervisor for the Nevada Highway Patrol. He said part of his job is to inspect fatal vehicular crashes, and that he inspected about 230 fatal vehicular crashes in six years.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He inspected the truck, including brakes, tires, suspension, and steering, and stated he found no unusual mechanical failure whatsoever. The seatbelt on the passenger side had been cut to get Renette out of the car. The passenger side airbag was turned off, and the driver's side seatbelt was intact and fully retracted.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It was not in use at the time of the incident, which he said he didn't have a seatbelt on. The windows on both sides were broken. The driver's side window regulator indicated the window was down, and the passenger side window regulator indicated that that window was up. The emergency brake was not engaged.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They said no trail of brake fluid found on the roadway, no other evidence of an actual rupture of the complete brake hydraulic system was found. He testified that any tests conducted on the vehicle three or four years later, like now, would be problematic because any car sitting in storage for two years or more would suffer dry rot of the rubber components of the braking system.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he testified also that he did not attempt to measure the amount of brake fluid that was in the brake system when he performed his inspection. He testified he was unable to ascertain whether the left rear drum brake worked because it was gone but that the condition of the right rear drum brake shoes was good.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He also said he visually inspected the master cylinder and vacuum booster but conducted no other testing on them. He said he did not conduct further tests because there was no recall notice from Ford Motor Company for the braking system and because this particular truck had not had brake problems prior to this crash. The defense arguments include here detailing physics here.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They try to detail physics to show how Bergner could have been thrown clean through the driver's window as the truck tumbled. And they also introduced evidence that there were 1997 Ford F-150 trucks that had known brake issues. That was a thing, a known thing. They also questioned why would a 45-year-old man choose this method of murder, which would be so dangerous to him?
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Suppose he fucked it up at all. He'd be dead. They said betting the guardrail would break and that he could jump from the vehicle and do it all in pitch darkness.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They said, apparently, Mr. Bergner has better vision than someone with 2010 wearing a night vision helmet, better reflexes than a cat and is more psychic than John Edward or Sylvia Brown, which is possible because I think anyone listening right now, you're probably more psychic than those fucking hack charlatans, fucking full of shit assholes.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I don't know what that means.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they also the defense also questioned why their client being horny was relevant to his urge to kill. So what if he's horny? Literally, they said that. So what if he's horny? Oh, that's so funny. What's the difference? That doesn't mean he's a murderer. They bring in a friend here. One of the guys here said that Peter took a long time to come out of this.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I don't even know what that means. Inspiration, progress, I don't know. History of this town, established in 1882. So that's older than I thought it was going to be here. The Sierra Nevada Wood and Lumber Company was a logging company that operated on the northeast side of Lake Tahoe at where Incline Village is now. So this used to just be like a lumber camp, lumber company.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They said it took a lot of spirit out of Pete. And he also, this friend said he believed the hot tub incident never happened.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Didn't happen. He said it was common for Bergman and other male appraisers to socialize with potential business contacts, including single women. They said it's probably one of the most important things for any appraiser. These bank people, because then they can refer people to him that need this service, I guess, is what it is.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So he said that they did have some disagreements about travel schedule, but he said, by God, they were going to work that out. Another witness testified that Peter was grief-stricken after his wife's death. They said inside he was devastated. His mother testifies here. She said that her son was in shock, near shock at the funeral of his wife.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And she said that he's not angry with his wife all the time. She never saw them fight during multiple vacations abroad and other outings. She said they always wanted to do everything and see everything. And yeah, she said that I was very close to Renette. She was a bundle of energy. It was such a hard time for everyone after she died.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And by the way, he stands to inherit part of her six million dollar estate. So he shouldn't be real worried about money. prosecution closing they said that Bergner cared as much about the person he sent over the cliff as he did about his truck both are replaceable so after this prosecutor who's a female prosecutor finishes her closing argument he loudly calls her a bitch Nice.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Which is not great for your case at all. And the detective watching it said you couldn't have stabbed yourself harder than doing that. That was dumb. It's a verdict. The verdict comes in. It's a jury of eight women and four men. You really fucked this one up, man. And he is found guilty of first degree murder this time. Wow. Guilty. Absolutely. Mother held her hands there, had her hands all sad.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Sentencing comes around. You, sir, may fuck off 20 years to life. Okay. No parole for 20 years. Got him. Got him, apparently. So the prosecutor said that he's only out for himself. Prosecutor said pompous is a good word after deliberating how to describe him. He was very smug throughout the whole thing. I think he thought some expensive attorneys could get him off.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Justice was a long time coming, but we got there in the end. They said he was just one of approximately 4000 convicted felons will be sentenced in Washoe County this year. All the glamour is gone now. Bergner created the glamour to us. He was always the same as every other defendant. And the defense said this. He was turned into a celebrity target by the prosecutors. Oh, come on. Fuck off.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So I think that one of the things that are engendered so much zealousness was the thought of who Peter Bergner was. It was almost a joke with the defense. His first name was no longer Peter. It was wealthy art appraiser. I've met dozens and dozens of professional prosecutors and talking about the one of the prosecutors. He is probably the least professional I've ever met.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
My sense of things is he had whipped up the public fervor over this case. Wow. Peter said that the media portrayed him as being guilty, guilty, guilty, and that the public, quote, hates people with money. That's why every famous person is super rich. Oh, they do. They hate people with money. That's true.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They hate people they don't particularly agree with about things that have money. If they like the person that they stand for, they love that they make money. That's the thing. It depends.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And it was named for the incline railway that served the area. That's what they call it, the incline village there. The timber was required for the mines during the mining boom because you had to put the big timber up to keep everything structured down there. And the timber around Lake Tahoe was placed on an incline railway where it was taken up 1,400 feet.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
No, it's wild. It's how they say they're right about everything. Yeah. Well, he's super rich. How could he be dumb?
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. It's lots of people are rich and dumb. It happens. So they said that it will there be appeals. The prosecutor said right now, the way this case stands, there should be no issues. But, hey, you never know, basically. So the appeals do come in and there's appeals a bunch of times.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
One says that he could have that he would have to have been suicidal or schizophrenic to pull off such a stunt that he was neither. Oh, which I don't know how you'd get like legally prove that here. They said the state's theory is that Peter could or murder his wife by staging a vehicle accident, which by design placed him in mortal danger is weird.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they said the prosecution's theory was, quote, weird. That's how they dealt with it.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Right. They also said that he was wearing sneakers, blue jeans, and a windbreaker, not an astronaut jumpsuit worn by stunt car drivers. Just because he wasn't dressed like Evel Knievel doesn't mean that he didn't do it.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Couldn't have done it. Couldn't have done it. The theory that this design stage accident featured him driving his truck straight into a guard guardrail and pitch darkness on a steep pitched mountain road is even weirder. A person who would do that would have to either be suicidally depressed or schizophrenic. They also claim that the guardrail was missing eight or nine bolts.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And that's why it failed. So they said, get the fuck back to prison. Stupid. Go appraise the fine art that people do and poop on the walls. It's going to be excellent. Tell us what those are worth.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
There you go. He is next up for parole in 2025 this year. Oh. He is up for parole. Oh. He's had one or two already, and now he's got another one coming up in 2025, and he thinks he might get out this time.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Keep an eye out, everybody. So there you go. Peter Bergner, Renette Bergner.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
crazy ass fucking story someone tell me where that came from on tv by the way please someone tell me what show that was on because it's driving me fucking bananas number one and i got i got i got no i got no remorse for him being for sure did it right yeah he didn't fall that's crazy yeah he didn't fall out especially the episode of whatever i saw it on he seemed really guilty in that one so i'm gonna go with yes i don't know
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
then dropped by a gravity flume down the western side of the mountain to a 3,000-foot tunnel to Carson City. That's cool as shit. Is that how log rides became? I was just going to say, every six flags and everything has a log flume splash mountain and all that shit. That's what this is from.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah, the log flume is a real thing, apparently. Wow. Never heard of it until now, but I guess it is here. The company operated a number of other railroad lines that were in the area, too. So that's what they did. Now, notable people that have had houses here, Warren Buffett had a house here in the 80s, I guess. Yeah. The stew cook of Creedence Clearwater Revival.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
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Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And then David Coverdale, Deep Purple and Whitesnake there.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Is This Love and all that shit with Tony Katane on the hood. That's the guy there. The jackass from Girls Gone Wild, that idiot Joe Francis. Yeah. And John Force.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And John Force, the race car driver.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So all sorts of famous people have gone there. Reviews of this town. Not a lot of them, and most of them are good. So we'll get into it here. Five stars. Here we go. Incline Village is that charming town by a beautiful lake. All right. Lake Tahoe is one of America's gems. Calm down. Yeah, it's pretty.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
It's nice. Incline Village sits on the north shore on the Nevada side and boosts an abundance of activities for the locals and many tourists and wanderers that visit this lovely town. Having a population of about 9,000 people, it's a pretty small town. but rapidly grows during the high of the tourist seasons. The locals are friendly and welcoming to newcomers as I was once the new person.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Tahoe has so much to offer from the lake to the endless hiking to the long bike rides taking in the beauty of this majestic lake. That's still all in the same category.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Outside, walking around, looking at the lake.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. Hiking, laking, bike rides, same shit. Four stars here. We lived here for about 15 years and love our town. We wish we had Christmas lights around town, more activities off season, more respect from tourists. Well, you're never going to get that. Never. No. You're pissing on everything you love. Yeah, I'm here to spend money so you guys can have a town.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Sweep my piss from the streets. That's how that works there. Things to do here. Okay. Summerfest we have. Sure. That is the Incline Tahoe Foundation presents Summerfest, a family favorite event during Incline Village's Independence Day week of celebrations.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they go hard for this, but you can't get a Christmas light downtown. Nice. So they say that they have all sorts of food. Incline Spirits has organized beer tasting from 12 breweries featuring 24 craft beers, wine, and soft beverages. Craft beers are always a disappointment. They're always just bitter.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They aim for that guy, but yet 100 people go to it, and two of the people enjoy it. The rest of them are going, yeah, no, it's good.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I mean, yeah, I don't know if I drink it every day, but it's okay.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
The University of Nevada, Reno at Lake Tahoe has a watermelon tent.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
At Lake Tahoe. That's a lot of different places. That's a lot. That's qualifying it. They'll have lawn games and fun for the whole family. Tickets, by the way. This is fucking... No, then there's also, I'm sorry, Jacked Up will be performing.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Jacked up. They just have pictures of football tackles on a screen behind them as it goes.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Fucking jacked up. Jacked up. We'll be providing great music. And how much does all of this cost? How much would you pay for all of this? $12? $75. Get the fuck out of here. And that includes tasting glasses for your pissy craft beer. $25 for children and designated drivers. So even children, $25 for your kid to come in, walk around, and watch Jacked Up perform.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
And not get any beer. They say, by the way, this was formerly beer and brats, apparently. That's what it used to be. Now they've changed it to the Summerfest. I don't know. That said, let's talk about some murder. Oh, boy. I want to murder. Let's get right into this. Yeah, I'd want to murder if I paid $75 and got to taste some shitty craft beer. I'd be very upset. There would be a murder happening.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So I have to give credit to an article here that has a lot of very good details. SF Gate is the publication. SF Gate? Yeah, they do a lot of different, very good investigative pieces. And this is by Andrew Chamings, or Chamings, either one. So good job, Andrew. Here we go. Let's get right into this. Here we go. With a fella here, Peter Matthew Bergna, B-E-R-G-N-A, Bergna. He's born 1953.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He was apparently adopted. He's an adopted kid. When he was a baby, he was adopted. So it never was like a weird, you know, didn't grow up in an orphanage or anything like that. His parents, his dad, I believe he grew up in North Carolina because his dad, Lewis, is a district attorney in North Carolina. So, yeah, he came up with a very decent upbringing and that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
They have a lot of money. His parents both have a lot of money and not bad. I mean, not a bad way to grow up here.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Not bad. He'll end up as a Lake Tahoe fine art appraiser. Oh, my old job. I had to give that up to do this. That was what it was. I had to. I said, you know what?
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
I'm tired of it. I've seen too much and I'm going to try stand up. And that's that's when I started comedy. And, you know, it's a tough world. The fine art appraisal world. It's just it's too much for me. It was rough. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
got rough after what competitive is what it is you know people jumping each other legs getting broken it's too much um he uh ends up finding a wife here renette riella he ends up marrying uh renette r-i-n-n or r-i-n-e-t-t-e renette uh so renette riella and she becomes renette riella bergna She's like a year younger than him, but same basic age here. She, very well-educated, successful pharmacist.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So fine art and pharmacist, that's going together here. You can take pills and look at pretty pictures. That sounds like a lot of fun. They're going to have fun here. She is well loved by everybody. People even call her a saint for her compassion for people, which, you know, I've counted these pills for you. Here you are. That's a lot of compassion you can have here.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they have a very nice life together. These two. I mean, living it up. She can't have kids, apparently, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
He was adopted. He could have been. You know what I mean? Yeah. Christ. He could have. So bad. Everything could have gone bad. He could have got the wrong family or whoever put him up for adoption originally could have kept him in some trailer park or something somewhere.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
You know, just in a bad situation or, you know, a 16-year-old mother or whatever the hell the deal might be would be, you know, not as advantageous as the situation he fell into.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
Yeah. He would like to have kids is the thing. He'd like to have a family, but his wife can't have kids, so that's an issue. I think she would like to have a family too, but she can't.
Small Town Murder
#562 - Murder On Slide Mountain - Incline Village, Nevada
So they do have a very nice life. They live on the north shore of Lake Tahoe there in the Incline Village. Oh, I'm sorry. His dad wasn't North Carolina. Apparently his dad was a county district attorney for Santa Clara County.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
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Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
She's got to check that. She said, as I walked into the hallway, a man was standing there. And not her dad or either of her brothers. He was a tall, light-skinned man. He had worked in our house as a handyman about two weeks ago.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Okay, so she recognized him. So this is about 8.45 p.m. She gets up, starts down the hallway toward her parents' bedroom, also to go downstairs the same direction.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Okay, all right. She walked past an intersecting hallway, and that's when this man grabbed her by the neck and pulled her back into her bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Pushed her up against the closes the bedroom door and pushes her up against the bedroom door that's closed.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He held her by the throat. 14 year old.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Here comes the mom. Here comes Isabel. She knocks on the door saying, is everything all right? I heard. Is everything all right? She couldn't answer from in there. She's getting choked.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Gail passes out. Oh, that kind. Heavy choke. Choke her. Yeah, he's choking her so she can't get noise out to alert her mother. So chokes her until she passes out. She hits the ground, passes out. Okay, this is great. Now, it could have been fainting, but it's probably choking. Probably from the choking. So this guy who has come into this house is Harliss Miller, H-A-R-L-I-S, Harliss.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Nope. Harliss Miller. He's 32 years old at the time, and he is a part-time landscaper and gardener who has done work around here for 10 years. He's worked on this property, as a matter of fact, on at least six different occasions in October and November of 1962 and on the adjoining property on at least four occasions during the same period.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Anybody $5 a month or above, you are going to get all of it, including rewards. As soon as you subscribe, hundreds of back episodes you've never heard before are bonus stuff. And then new ones every other week, including this week. This week for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about disasters of all kinds. We did some industrial disasters, some hot air balloon disasters.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So for the last two months, he's been around doing landscaping shit. Now, now, Harless had never failed to report for work on a scheduled day ever. But on November 10th, he he was supposed to work Monday. They told him Saturday you have to work Monday, but he didn't show up to work that day. The first time he's ever done that. Now, a little bit about Harless.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He is from Sarasota, Florida, but he lived in Norwalk, Connecticut. And like I said, didn't show up that morning for work. And when one of his employers telephoned his landlady to see where the fuck he was, she just said he was out. He wasn't home. He wasn't sick. They also said that Harless was we find out he's the oldest of seven children. He's born to his mom's name is Mary Jones.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Everybody calls her Aunt Mary. And everybody said that she is a very upstanding lady down there. Her first husband died right after her last child was born, which is convenient. Now you have seven kids and fucking by yourself. Her second husband was killed in a gun duel with a neighbor. Wow. Yeah. In the 50s? In the wild, in like the 40s, I think.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That is fucking crazy. Through it all, though, Aunt Mary would raise her kids up by, this is, she made a living by picking beans and selling hogs.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That is rough going, man. The county never had trouble with with Harless at all, though. One guy here, though, said that that was down there. But the deputy police chief, Jack Royal of Sarasota, said that he used to work in a pool room down there and meeting Harless. And he said Harless had a record of three arrests, gambling, carrying a deadly weapon and rape.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Fast, yeah. The last charge was dismissed in 1960 on the grounds of insufficient evidence. Now, Harless calls himself several aliases, Harris, Hollister, and Ulysses, as well as Harless. That's what he goes by. So it's very interesting. A little background on Harless here. His mom, Aunt Mary, would never say anything bad about her, but Harless was married before this to a woman named Jimmy Sue.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Jimmy spelled like you. Jimmy Sue.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Jimmy Sue called Harless a, quote, mean man and accused him of carrying a gun everywhere. Wow. Original Florida man. He is. Jimmy Sue said Harless was a turpentine worker when she married him in 1953. So he's got excessive brain damage probably if he's been working around turpentine in the 50s. Probably just ate everything he's got.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Everything. It doesn't matter. The absorption. Oh, the chemicals.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
In the 50s, there wasn't like safety measures or anything like that. Fuck you. Fuck that. Yeah, OSHA, are you kidding me?
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So during their marriage, the first year of their marriage, she said that, this is amazing, she marries a turpentine worker and things aren't all settled. During the first year of their marriage, honeymoon period, okay, he tried to rape his aunt. What? He tried to rape his own aunt.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It's just like a disaster grab bag we're going to talk about.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
I don't know, but his uncle shot at him and he ran away.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Not having this shit. Harless, Hollister, whatever the fuck you want to call yourself. Boom.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Jesus Christ. And the sanest guy is the guy shooting at somebody. That's the craziest thing here. Shooting at his nephew, raping his wife. What the fuck, man? He tried to rape his aunt.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Oh, man. So he ends up having a son with her, of course, because he's got to be fertile if he's this fucking stupid and gross. So after that, well, before the son was born, Harless went off to Florida while his son, Willie James, was born. And he didn't return until the baby was two months old. He just left for four months when his wife was pregnant.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It's crazy. Yeah. Especially when it's like old timey, like the Molasses River that happened in Boston. That was wild.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Then Jimmy Sue said, he banged my head against the wall and he beat me up very often. Then luckily for her, he finally abandoned her in 1957. Thank fuck.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Where she had to get a job as a cook at the local jail to support her son. And she described her son as ain't got no temper like his pa.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
His pa's got a temper, and he ain't got it.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He's a calm kid. He's not a jerk like his dad, which is terrific, I guess. So when he was around Westport, he went four months without a job, and then he'd been a handyman for the last two months doing... landscaping and shit like that. And that's when he's been hanging around this neighborhood. He drove.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Apparently he his boss that he worked for said, quote, Harless drove a relative of mine up from Florida about six months ago. He just sort of took a vacation until he started working with me two months ago. He wasn't doing anything. And he said that this boss said that the boss's brother, Clyde, have a long, have a cleaning business. And, you know, they hire guys all the time.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And he seemed like a good guy. So here's this good guy. This is who Gale is trapped in a room with. Tried to rape his aunt.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It doesn't. It seems like it would be a miracle every time it lands, I would imagine. Oh, my God. How'd that happen? Then for Small Town Murder, since we always debunk everything, we're going to talk about psychics that actually succeeded in what they were trying to do. Find bodies and do things like that. Very interesting stuff there. We'll get into all that and more.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That's where we're at right now. So I am not.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Oh, he didn't get charged with that. That was just family affair. I shot at him. He ran away. Everything's fine. Oh, boy. That was an official. Yeah. So who knows how many people, especially in the 50s, even less people reported rapes.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
I mean, he might have been doing this everywhere. He's a bad, bad, bad man. So got a temper like his pal. So Gail said he grabbed me and put a piece of cord around my neck and started choking me. I tried to pull the cord loose and he forced me back into my bedroom, held me with the cord as he locked the door. Then he started choking me again. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
She said, I fought him as hard as I could, but he pushed me back onto my bed. Just then, my mother must have heard me struggling and choking, and she started pounding on the door and shouting my name. I guess then I must have fainted or passed out from being choked. So, wow. She gets her consciousness back here, comes to, and there's nobody there. She's alone in a room. Phew.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So she goes downstairs and sees Harliss on top of her mother on the floor with his hand around her neck, choking her mom. So she tries to help her mother. By the way, Harliss is 6'3", 195 pounds. So he's my size, an inch shorter. So that's a pretty big guy. You know what I mean? So she's a 14-year-old trying to help with a physically imposing person here.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
But what ends up happening is he just sees that she's awake and then grabs them both. and drags them both back to the mother's bedroom where he chokes both of them and places a rope around Gail's neck. And so this is how Gail describes it. Apparently, he went to the door, unlocked it and started choking my mother.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
When I came to, I ran out into the hallway and the man was bending over my mother and was choking her with a cord. She'd been forced down to the floor and was fighting and screaming. The man then forced us into my mother's bedroom. This is fucking crazy. Then she said, my mother asked him if he wanted money and he said he didn't want any money. No. She then asked, why are you doing this?
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And he said, quote, you wouldn't understand.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Which I honestly think he's being honest. You wouldn't understand what a rapist and a monster guy feels like here. So then Gail said, why do you hate us? You must hate us to do this to us. Why are you doing this? And he said, quote, I don't hate you. You wouldn't understand.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah. So then he started choking her after that. After she said, why do you hate us? And he choked her unconscious again. So now she's been choked unconscious twice now, Gail. When she regained consciousness, she was on the floor with her hands tied, hog tied basically, hands and feet bound. And her mother was on the floor beside her with a rope around her neck, unconscious and breathing heavily.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Patreon.com slash smalltownmurder. crime in sports. That said, I think it's time to get into this. I think it's time everybody to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs here. Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Yeah, let's go. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We have to. Let's do it. We are going to Connecticut this week here. Westport, Connecticut.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So he like left her there. Um, so Gail said, I kept fainting and waking up, fainting and waking up. When I came to, he was choking my mother again and I screamed, stop, stop. The man then ran over to Gail. Harless does picks her up, drags her in her own bedroom.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Um, he tied her hands and feet here again, cause this was, she was untied and then whatever the, I, uh, the mom was tied. Um,
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Then he went back to the mother's room, and she heard him pulling out drawers and dumping shit on the floor. She said, I called my mother, but there was no answer. He comes back into her room. Well, he cut her bonds, first of all. She was bound, and then he cut them and brought her back into the room and then bound her again. Then left the room, returned, and untied her again.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Put on a different nightgown. Get your fucking robe and your slippers. Okay. Then he tied her up again. Then he covers her up with a quilt, like makes like a big Santa sack with her basically.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Gets a big quilt, covers her all up with that and carries her downstairs. He then takes her outside, puts her on the floor of the back seat of his car and drives away with her. Oh, my God. He just took her. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So Gail said her words were, when the man returns, he wrapped me in a blanket after warning me to keep quiet and took me downstairs and outside where he put me in the back of his car on the floor. Gone. Okay. Gone. By 9.15. Out of there.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It's kind of the opposite, actually, we find out. But, yeah, it's weird. 6.30 p.m., Pierre gets home from work.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He gets home. He found his house dark. What the fuck? The living room's in complete disarray. The bedroom's a mess. What's going on? No, he can't find anybody. No one in the bedroom. No one in the living room. No one in any of the bedrooms.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He then says he has to go to the bathroom, opens up the bathroom door, and finds his wife, Isabel, in her nightgown, dead as can be, sitting on the toilet with her head resting against the wall.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He fucking posed her on the toilet.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
With her head resting against the wall. Yeah, she'd been dead for hours already. Mm-hmm. So he, oh, Jesus Christ, ran out, called 911, or at the time just called the local police or did whatever he could here. It turns out she died from asphyxiation due to strangulation caused by a rope or a clothesline around her neck.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah. Westport is in southwestern Connecticut.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Marks encircled her neck could have been made by clotheslines like the ones used to bind them both here. Wow. So this is fucking crazy. So clotheslines are a big thing. All of this tying up is done with clotheslines, by the way. So let's get into the hell car here.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He just drove around for hours. What? Drove around the countryside for hours.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Just driving around. Once he stopped and lit a cigarette and Gail asked, what are you going to do now? And he said, haven't made my mind up yet. And then drove off again. At one point he stops, gets her out of the car, puts her in the trunk. And drives away.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He has no idea how... If he wants you tied up, if he wants you in the car, in the trunk, he has no clue. Gail said, we drove around for a long time. Then he stopped in a lonely place and put me in the trunk of the car. My hands were tied behind my back. This is terrifying. Then they drove around again for a long time. She just felt driving and turns and all the normal driving things.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Well, it's down on the Long Island Sound down there. Oh, is it? It's on the water, yeah. So it is a port, yeah. It's a port, yeah. It's Westport, southwestern Connecticut by the Long Island Sound. It's basically a suburb of New York City, though.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Then they stop... At a restaurant, a bar restaurant. And she said he opened up the trunk and asked me if I wanted a chicken sandwich. Not particularly. No.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Not really. She said, I shook my head and told him I wanted to go home. It take me home. I don't want a chicken fucking sandwich. You're strangling me all the time here. This is crazy. So that's fucking wild. Okay. He then he says he's going to get a sandwich. He takes her out of the trunk, places her in the back seat, ties her hands behind her back and to the rear door handle of the car.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
yeah he then left to go get the sandwich he returned shortly telling her that the sandwich wouldn't be ready for like a half hour and at that point he untied her and took off her nightgown and what she said quote did something to her oh boy yeah he then he rapes this young girl which is fucking horrible in this car which is a nightmare um obviously and um Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He then placed her on the floor with her hands tied behind her back and used another rope to tie her to the door handle again. Then, I guess, he went in to get the sandwich, came out, got the sandwich, and he offered her some. She didn't want any. She said afterwards, meaning after he attacked her, I pleaded with him for a drink of water, and he left me. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Anything within two-hour driving distance is a suburb of the city. And this is about an hour and a half, depending on traffic, to New York City from here. So definitely a burb. It's about an hour and a half in the other direction to Ellington, Connecticut, which was our last Connecticut episode, Detective Fitbit. I remember that was wild. That was interesting. A whole case solved by a Fitbit.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Median is almost a quarter of a million a year. Median home cost here, you better be making a quarter million a year because the median home cost is $1,473,500.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That's all I can say to that. Good for you guys. That's great. Holy shit. The nickname, they don't have a motto, but they have a nickname of this town, which is capital W, little E, capital P, little O. We Poe, which is they're not Poe at O. They're not Poe in the slightest, these fucking people. I get it's Westport, but no, it's not. Don't do that because that's what it sounds like.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
While she's holding hands with her father.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah, and she's a murder victim, so I bet there'll be cops there. I don't think they're going to pop up and take her, probably, I would say. I mean, you could just it'd probably be a lot cheaper for everyone just to have a cop hang out out in front of their house. That would be the cheapest and easiest way to do this and probably the most effective to November 16th, 1962.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
This is about the same time that that Isabel is being put into her grave in Tarrytown. Beautiful place. 900 miles away, there's some drama here. Here we go. Word reached the sheriff that a turquoise and white Mercury with Connecticut license plates was parked at Aunt Mary's house, his fucking mother's house.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yes, which is off the road a bit on the outskirts of Soperton when an eight with an agent for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and three FBI men. They drove down this area is called the bottoms, by the way. Yeah, not great. They drove down and saw the mercury in the yard and a young woman leaning against it. She was looking at a pickup truck also parked in the yard.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Aunt Mary sat there on her back porch. So they said the sheriff said, is Harless here? Aunt Mary didn't answer because she thought the sheriffs were there to arrest her son for non-support of his wife and child because he abandoned them. He's a deadbeat. So she just sits there silent and the cop notices movement beneath a bag in the back of the truck.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He ran over, pulled up the burlap and yelled, come out of there. And Harless stood up and there he was.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yep. He submitted to arrest without resistance. Yeah. He and this is fucked up, too. We don't know. OK. First, he was described as two men in the car.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Then it was him and Lucille. But now when they're here, they're calling her Rosalie Millage. the woman he's with, who's 23. But I don't know if that's what Lucille goes by, if that's her middle name, or I don't know what the fuck it is. But from what I know, she is with him because I've seen a picture of the two of them in the sheriff's office together. So she was there.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They were like, this is him and his wife, Lucille. So he didn't put up a fight. And they were both him and his wife were taken in to the Soperton police station before he was told why he was under arrest. He said, he said, quote, I never knew any family named Salon up there. All I knew up there was my bosses I worked for. And he said that he had that you guys have hunted down the wrong guy.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
I didn't do this and I'm not fleeing from anything. I'm just coming to see my wife.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
She even she got. Yeah. Fuck. He they said you were you were coming down here anyway. It's just a coincidence that you left the day after a murder. He said, well, I knew it would get cold up there and my landscaping job would play out. That's what it was. I knew about, you know, I was going to be cold. He said, so I was heading back to Florida and I stopped to see my mother.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And the woman said she knew nothing about the crime. She was just returning to Florida with Harless to escape the winter. That's all. And they said, you know, they said, you got the wrong guy. You got the wrong guy. So they said, okay, why'd you shave off your mustache? Why can't you explain who owns the red bathrobe belt found in your trunk? Uh-oh.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
A little bit of history of this town here. Officially incorporated in 1835, they got lands from Fairfield, Weston, and Norwalk and just made a town out of it here. I guess there was a guy named Daniel Nash led 130 people to petition the town of Fairfield for Westport's incorporation. And they wanted to assist their seaports economic viability that was being undermined by neighboring town seaports.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah, along with clothing that belongs to them, blankets from their house, and a narrow-brimmed hat exactly the type described by Gale.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Why do you have all that, sir? Oh, and they're going to find tons of clothes lying all over the place and everything else. Wow. So agents of the FBI joined the investigation here. Obviously, they went up to do this and they charge Lucille and Harris with unlawful flight to escape prosecution. And then they'll put everything else on later.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
By the way, the Mercury that he was driving went through eight states undetected on the way back. He got pulled over three times on the way from Florida up to his mom's house.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Going north, he got pulled over three different fucking times, but not at all on the way down. He must have thought he got away with it, didn't care. And they didn't have like a nationwide plate system. So, yeah. Then he says some incriminating shit when they get him in the police station. Well, this is fucking crazy.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They get him in the Westport police headquarters here, and they will talk about, this is before they get him to Georgia, or to the headquarters in Westport, but he's in Georgia at this point. and he's quoted as saying, quote, if everybody says I did it, then I must have.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Must have. And that he said he was, quote, sorry for what he'd done to that woman. Not good. Both of them. Not fucking good. So... They take him back to Connecticut. They're arraigned in Georgia before the U.S. Commissioner Martha Daniel.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Then they were held in custody without bail in Augusta, and they waived extradition and were driven back to Connecticut by the Fairfield County District Attorney, his investigator. And the two men spelled each other driving on the 875-mile trip. They made it in 17 and a half hours. Wow. Good time right there. So they arrive in Connecticut at 534 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Now, while he's in jail, a Connecticut County detective and a Westport police sergeant went to Georgia. This is before they took him back up and examined his car. Without getting a search warrant. What? Just went down there to pick through it. Then the car is brought back to Connecticut. They do a full take apart examination again. No fucking warrant.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They get no search warrant for this shit at all. They just said, oh, what the fuck? We can do that. The upholstery, by the way, teeming with blood and hair from Gail. Just all over the place. I mean, physical evidence is a big deal here. Seals a dummy. Fucking unbelievable. Certain objects taken from the car were submitted to the state laboratory in Hartford for examination.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
No search warrant again. It's a lot, man, with this no search warrant, including they found human hair identified as gales on the crank handle of the rear window and on the rear seat and floor, completely corroborating everything. They found blood stains on the cover of the rear seat, the blood being the same type as gales, which is as close as you could get back then. They do a lineup.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They bring him back, and Gail is asked to identify him, and she does in the lineup, obviously. She was brought to headquarters and picked him out of a lineup of six men.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Now, the officer later said the girl was given instructions by him, viewed the lineup without pointing to anyone in it, then left the room and talked with the officer, after which time she returned to the lineup and pointed him out. So at this point, he is a lawyer because he's been arrested. And his lawyer is saying the identification wasn't made on the first viewing, only on the second viewing.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And the the officer probably told her who to pick. Now, my thing is she's 14. And back then, everybody in 1962, everyone on Earth hadn't seen a million police procedurals where they would show lineups and stuff. She might have asked, can they see me? Right. She might have asked, is this safe? She might have asked, can he hear me? She might have asked anything on fucking Earth. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So that's an interesting thing here. But the court is going to go to trial. The prosecution here says, my client wasn't there and didn't kill, but if he was there, he didn't mean to commit the murder. He wasn't there and didn't do it, but if he did, he was an accident. So either way, take it as one of those.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
You have a seaport. You're concerned with that. But we're concerned with our seaport. So let us deal with this shit. So for several decades after that, it was a big agricultural community. It was the leading onion growing center in the United States, which I had no idea. You can smell it in fucking Times Square. You can smell the onions. That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Wow. He said this is the prosecution. That's wild, man. The prosecution said by Gail's story, I say Harless Miller was there and murdered Mrs. Salon. And they said that he was acquainted with the layout of the home because he's been in there before. And he, though, the defense says he contends he was in a bar part of the day of the murder. But the state introduced testimony that he wasn't there.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
As a matter of fact, he was there. there at the exact time she said he was getting the exact type of food that she said he did. Yeah. So charging that Miller that Harlan Harless went to the salon home with a rope. The prosecutor claimed that if he was as startled as the defense claims, the assailant may have been.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Why didn't he kill Mrs. Salon downstairs where Gail testified she saw him attempting to strangle her? There was no frantic situation. He had time to premeditate. He was deciding what he was going to do. They said if the law requires that the eyewitnesses were needed at the exact moment of expiration, how few cases would we be able to prove? Yeah. Someone had to watch you murdering a person. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They said there's no question of Dale's identification or Gail's identification. She was with Miller for about 12 hours under all sorts of circumstances. She knows him. Yeah. She'll pick his ass out. They also talk about the rope. There's several there's evidence which attempted to connect him with the murder. They said a piece of rope which had been tied to her wrist was introduced.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
which is very weird. Yet a police officer examining a piece of rope in court said he was able to identify it because of two knots tied in the two ends. So they said, yeah, this connects to that.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So another piece was introduced, found on the ground in the rear of his home, of Harless's house, by Westport police a few days after many newsmen and other spectators had visited the premises and failed to turn up the rope. So they're saying that could have been planted by anybody.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
But nobody knew at that point that it was a rope with certain knots. So, yeah. They said the type A blood found on the seat covers of the car, which matched Gale's blood, quote, could be anybody's blood. And also, he has a common physical appearance. A lot of people look like him. Really?
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That's what I mean. And the fact that back then, 6'3 was extremely tall.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Right now, in the United States, 6'4 and over is 1% of the population. Wow. What do you think it was back then to be 6'3, 6'4? That was considered a giant back then. So, that's crazy. So, Gale... Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of things to pick out. The ear, the weird, the fucking heart face. So Gail testifies. She has to.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And it became a shipping center in part to transport the onions.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And apparently they try to get a mistrial because she's describing what took place in the automobile and all of that kind of thing and accusing him of committing heinous acts. So they're like, mistrial. This is ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They said, we have no facts before us on the record concerning this incident during the trial except the bare statement in the finding that the defendant moved for a mistrial based on the witness's mischaracterization of this offense. They're like, she's a liar, that one. And they try to get a mistrial. Then Harless himself is testified. He has to testify, too. He takes the witness stand.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He's got to do some acting here. He described his position in the two lineups in which
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That's how it worked. Once the collapse of the onion industry happened, then mills and factories replaced that. And now it's just replaced with rich people. So that's it. Starting about 1910, this is when people in New York City discovered a nice little leafy burb about an hour and a half away. And this is when artists and musicians started moving here.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
gail viewed him and testified to what he wore for each lineup he said he could see the legs and bottom of the coat of the quote lady or woman who wore or viewed the lineup and could hear her voice despite the bright lights which were shining on him yeah it's because lights don't make sound different that's why generally they can make it louder if you got a headache but that's it that's about it yeah
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Did you have a migraine at the time? No. Asked whether his name was on the sweatshirt he wore for one of the lineups. He said the word Miller was up his shirt for one of the lineup appearances.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So that's interesting. Yeah, that wouldn't be great. But she's standing there right there going, that guy did this. Right. Period. Yeah. Yeah. The defense in closing recounted the events, and they said Miller came up here. He gave you his best effort to recount the events. Mm-hmm.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He said that his client was upset because of the argument he had with his wife the night before, and he said no one can recall what he did every minute of every given day, which is true. That's true enough. Wow. They call her Lucille Harris and Rosalie Millage interchangeably, his wife, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Don't get it. So the lawyer says you must examine every detail because a man's life is at stake. He said his summation required more than 20 minutes, and the defense was very dramatic. He said, in this case, many questions have arisen as to who, how, and when. The state has attempted to prove by one witness all these elements. Yeah, one witness who you held hostage for hours.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Wow. He said it was difficult to even cross examine Gail. It was difficult to ask her questions about the thing that happened to her mother. The question is whether Gail told the whole story, he says, alluding to several times during her testimony when she didn't remember something or didn't know, you know, because it was the most traumatic thing that's happened to a 14 fucking eighth grader.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah. The state had failed to prove premeditation, he said also. He said the excitement described in the home that day was a continuing thing. There was no time to reflect. None. Okay. Yeah. Pointing out there were two telephones that were not used in the home, the public defender said this fact proves that this was an excitable period of time.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They didn't even call the cops because they were getting strangled intermittently.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Then he says this, and this I would assume, if you said this now, a jury would come out of the box and fucking beat you with hammers. It's dangerous to rely on one witness, especially a 14-year-old impressionable girl in a first-degree murder case. You can't depend on a rape victim.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
She's 14. How does she know who raped her? That's ridiculous. He said that this case would require intensive deliberation on the part of the jury, which he said must decide the life or liberty of Harless Miller.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He also said that they must prove homicide, an unlawful killing done by another, and that the accused committed the acts resulting in the death, and that those acts were committed with the specific intention of causing death. Can't have an accident here.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So the jury is eight men, four women, which I'm shocked there's four women on the jury back then. A lot of these back then. Remember, we just did the case.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
No. Well, on the one we were talking about on the Patreon, the lady from 19 right around this time.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Same. It was the same kind of shit. So and she got acquitted by an all male jury and it was like 1963. So there's a lot of circumstantial evidence and shit like that. They find him guilty. First degree murder and rape. Yeah, you really have to here. But they did also recommend mercy as well. They recommended mercy, which means they did not want him executed.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It just became an artsy town. F. Scott Fitzgerald moved here.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They said they also recommended life in prison without the benefit of parole. Don't kill him. Just hang on to him forever and ever and ever. Now, after the trial, by the way, his wife, Lucille Rosalie, is released from custody.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah, I think he found an idiot to do what he wants with, probably. So she went back to Georgia. Now, Pierre Salon took Gail on a long trip to Europe and then moved with her from the horrible house here in Connecticut to a nice apartment in Manhattan.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yep, because he didn't want to deal with all the business shit in New York.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He probably moved to fucking Central Park. Wow, awesome. Wow. That's good. So, by the way, there's a new bill introduced right around this time. Headline slaying leads to plea for bill. Basically saying that there should be like a salesman has to register because he's knocking door to door and doing all this type of shit. Back then he had to register. I don't think you have to do that now.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
But they said this should apply to domestic staff and landscapers as well.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah. They said the applicant would know he was on file and would have to be without a police record to begin with for all applications would be sent to the FBI and Washington headquarters. So they said, yes, state rep John Shustak introduced or informed was informed at his home about the proposal. And he said he was in favor.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
No, no. F. Scott Fitzgerald is not.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He said, I shall definitely propose such a bill to the state legislature. I discussed this very subject with a friend last night, and I think it's needed and needed right now. A photo fingerprints and description of all house cleaners should be on record in local police offices. Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah, no shit. That's interesting. The state legislature convenes. This guy's the former mayor, and he indicated he would first have to consult with persons knowledgeable in bonding and registration to prepare an accurate proposal. Yeah, you need people that know how to write a law. So 1965.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Here's the appeal. The appeal is based on no warrant for his car search. Yeah. The Connecticut Supreme Court of Errors, which is a real thing back then, the Supreme Court of Errors, which sounds like they just fuck everything up all the time. They're looking for errors.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They said the the the crime said Judge John M. Comley speaking for a unanimous bench was, quote, particularly revolting and atrocious. Yet the conviction of him for this, they said the judge said not every search without a warrant is illegal. For example, a search, which is an incident which is an incident to a lawful arrest is proper, meaning you pull them out of the car.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He's a writer. He's a writer. He's an author. F. Scott Fitzgerald. The great Gatsby. I know who he is. I was going to say that.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
There's something sitting right there.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
But the search of Miller's car was remote from the arrest in both time and space. They searched it when he was in Connecticut two weeks later and then brought it to Connecticut and did it again. The U.S. citizen's immunity from such a legal search is a cornerstone of the Constitution, and the court is guarding against any erosion of that immunity and also that he wanted a new lawyer as well.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He said his lawyer didn't call the exact people he wanted to call. So he's a shit lawyer. Meanwhile, he's been in the bar since 1946. He's processed 800 cases, done 40 jury trials.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Prosecuted five appeals to the Supreme Court, securing reversals on three of them. So, I mean, he's fine. The lawyer's fine. But the court overturns the verdict. Really? Really. Yep, overturned because they searched his car without a warrant, and a lot of that evidence was used against him, and you can't do that. And that may have swayed the jury beyond just the eyewitness testimonies.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Which would make sense, seeing the light across the thing. You're on a sound. It all makes sense now. So that was before we wrote that, too.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So that's pretty fucked up. And that doesn't mean he goes free.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Just try again. So there's a retrial, this time no car evidence at all.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Who gots on the car evidence here? So he was convicted again. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Awful lot going on here. Convicted again and sentenced to, you, sir, may fuck off, life in prison again. Now, and then there's a new law after that, though. Okay. Okay. Several months passed, and the Connecticut General Assembly passed a Public Act 573, a law abolishing natural life sentences, meaning life without parole.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yes, it went into effect October 1st. Now, Miller and three other inmates in the state, there's only four people in the whole state on that, hope to prove that the law is retroactive. And if they succeed, they'll be eligible for parole in 20 years. Now, what happened to Gayle?
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Francis Scott Key. There you go. Yeah, it's an F Scott. You got it.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Gail ended up attending the New York School of Interior Design and working many years at Vital Enterprises in Vista, New York, as an interior designer. Wow. And then in 2013, at 64, she died.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
50 years later. But yeah, she had a better 50 years than there. The house, by the way, 31 Stony Brook in Westport, is worth $4,651,000 right now. Which is crazy on Zillow. I tried to find what the fate of Harless was. I know for a fact he was in prison in the 80s because there was a video of him talking that I could only get a screenshot off of and the video wouldn't come up.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
You got that shit. It got a reputation as an art center, and people were calling it a creative heaven at that point.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
I kept getting an error and it wouldn't work. But he was in the 80s. He was still in prison. And I don't know if he ever got paroled, if he's dead. I tried to find his grave. I tried to find everything. I assume he's dead because he was born in like 1930. Yeah. So unless he's 95, he's fucking dead because he was 31 in 1962. So he's got to be dead.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
But I don't know if he died in prison or if he ever got out again. And I hope not because he's a dangerous son of a bitch here.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That is a rapist forever right there. So there you go, everyone. That's Westport, Connecticut. Wow. And you can see why it's like I said, normally not such an old episode. Literally, the last Connecticut episode was about a Fitbit solve the crime. So, I mean, normally we stay pretty modern. But this case, just that narrative of this poor fucking girl fighting for her life and surviving.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
I know it's horrible that there's murder and there's rape and all that. But it's also kind of like she survived.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He knew when he left the house that morning that he was going to do this. He told his wife, be ready to fucking take off. Right. Be ready to go. He was going to do some shit. So there you go. Holy fuck, that's a crazy case. I couldn't not do it. I had other cases. I'm like, it's so crazy, man.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Veterans Day fucked him. And I got to give just Gail as a fucking survivor. She's a fighter. And then she went on to have a nice life. You know what I mean? Good for her. It helps to be rich, but still, good for her. You know what I mean? So there you go, everybody. There is Westport, Connecticut.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And then in the 20th century, there's industrialization and all this in New York. All this industrialization everywhere else made fashionable people come here. And it became Westport very fashionable. More writers and artists came. Farmers were selling off their land for housing developments and shit like that. And it changed from farmers to the suburbs at that point. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
If you like the show or anything about the show, please get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars and say something nice. Really helps drive us up the charts, and it is a free, quick, easy way to help the show if you'd like to do that. Other ways to help the show, you can go to AliveShow.com. Shut up and give me murder dot com.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Get your tickets now because they're half the shows are sold out already. Shows months and months away are sold out. So get your tickets right now. Chicago, St. Louis, those are the next ones up in early May. And St. Louis is I think it's sold out now. Maybe just our comps that need to be released, but it's just about sold out. And Chicago is pushing it. Chicago, always a huge crowd there.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So great. You definitely want your tickets for there. Get them now and do that at a shut up and give me murder dot com is where you get all of those and everything else. Merch and all that kind of shit there. You should also follow on social media at shut up or shut up. And what is it? That's small town murder. Small town murder on Instagram. So I am under the weather today.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yeah, and choo-choo. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station. We have a very weird episode for you today. Just a strange one. Can't wait to get into it.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That's that's came out. It's not good. That is. Yeah, it's small town murder on Instagram and at small town pot on Facebook. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of the bonus materials. Tons of it. Anybody, $5 a month or above. Immediately, you get hundreds of episodes of bonus shit you've never heard. New ones every other week.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
One Crime in Sports, one Swallowtail Murder, and you get it all. This week for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about disasters of all types, industrial disasters, hot air balloons bursting into flames, all sorts of weird, crazy shit. We'll talk all about it. Then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about psychics when they actually get shit right.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah, because we talk we debunk psychic stuff all the time. We're always like, oh, that one's full of shit. This one's full of shit. Whether they're full of shit or not, a few times it actually worked. So maybe it's maybe it's a lucky broken clock right twice a day or maybe they're psychic. We'll fucking find out and talk about it. patreon.com slash crime in sports.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show because God damn it. We appreciate it. And we want to tell you that what you're doing for us. So thank you very much for joining us. You want to follow us on social media, shut up and give me murder.com drop down menu, head over there, follow us, hang out with us, keep coming back each week because you can't get rid of us.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And until next week, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Then, famous people started moving here. In 1960, Paul Newman moved in and lived there until he died. How about that? I'm sure he had five houses, but he lived there.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Just being handsome until he's dead. And his wife, Joanne Woodward, the other actress, she still lived there after he died, even, so stayed there, liked it. Here's reviews of this town. Got a couple reviews here. Five stars. I appreciate the location of the town and what the town has to offer.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It's an hour from New York City, making the city very accessible and contains a beach, a nice downtown area, a public pool, the public sports courts and fields. The high school is very intense but contains amazing sports theater and music facilities and programs. These are rich kids. Smart kids, yeah. The parents are monitoring. They're not necessarily smart but rich. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
All rich people think their kids will be smart no matter if they're dumb or not. That's what rich people think.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah. I am rich enough that that kid is not dumb. It's weird. Very fucking weird here. Here's three stars. Beautiful town and relatively nice people. In my opinion, people can be spoiled, arrogant, and extremely out of touch. Well, they're called rich people. They're called rich people that live in this, yeah, this is not the real world. Right.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
And then finally, one star, a very, all caps, nasty town.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So if you're not rich, yeah, that's how rich works. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
If you're not wealthy, these people don't like you.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Really? Is that right? Are you here to trim my hedges? That's what they think at that point. The police are very nasty, basically thugs for the real estate people. And if you complain to town hall about them, what does town hall do? They, quote, refer your complaint back to the police. They are nasty people, a whole lot of them.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
The realtors are also extremely nasty, and they engage in serious blacklisting practices.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah, it's a small town where you're not rich.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
That's why we don't live there. Yeah. So things to do here, Westtoberfest. Yeah, it's a craft beer and fall festival. Let's see here. Promising a day of craft beer delights, live music, community camaraderie in the heart of downtown Westport.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Beer enthusiasts can indulge in a diverse selection of over 50 local and regional beers from crisp lagers and bold IPAs to rich stouts and refreshing non-alcoholic drinks. The festival promised... Rich douche beer. Rich IPA. Tears of the poor is what one is called. It's great. Tears of the poor children. This one's called Two Pennies. Holy shit. The festival promises more than fantastic brews.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It will also feature delicious food and lively music. Local culinary favorites will serve mouth-watering treats to satisfy any appetite. And the musical performances will be by one band called, quote, One Bad Oyster.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Before we do, very quickly, shutupandgivememurder.com is where you get tickets for all your live shows if you would like to come to a live show. Get your tickets now. I'm telling you right now. The tickets, May is the next batch of shows coming up, which is Chicago and St. Louis. St. Louis is just about sold out. Chicago's getting there. Grand Rapids is just about sold out.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Dude, you should see their logo is a cartoon oyster shell open with a, looks like a lump of gray, an oyster, like angry, like it's got teeth and it's like, and it's got a, it's got a bomb sitting next to it with like a, you know, a cartoon bomb with like a, you know, a fucking thing coming off. Yeah. That's because they're one bad oyster. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Wow. And there'll also be a Steinholding contest, a pumpkin chunking event hosted by CBS News weather anchor and Westport resident Lonnie Quinn. Wow. Oh. Well, then, there's Lonnie Quinn. By the way, One Bad Oyster, here's how they describe them. One Bad Oyster is not your average band. They're an energetic and lively ska surf band hailing from the vibrant Fairfield County in Connecticut.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Oof, that sounds rough. But they say they've been rocking the tri-state New England venues with their infectious beats and catchy tunes. Holy shit, let's talk about a murder. I've got to get to the murder. Before I have to murder them. Before I have to talk more about One Bad Oyster. Now, we're going to go back in time farther than – I think we've done one case older than this, maybe two.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
We normally don't go back in time this far, but this is such a fucking harrowing tale that I read it and I'm like, how do we not tell this story? Just because it's like a story of – it's one of those narratives where it's like, then this happens, then this happens. It's not like this is what happened. It's the – you're going to go through it and it's white knuckle and it's like –
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah. 63 years ago. Way farther back than we usually go here. So let's talk about some people. Pierre and Isabel Sillon. Sillon. S-I-L-L-A-N. If his name's Pierre, I'm going Salon because it's Pierre. Pierre and his wife, Isabel. She's 50 years old. He's a little bit older than that. They have some kids as well. They have three kids. They have Paul, who is 24, the son. He's the oldest.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
He is in the army stationed in Germany by now in 62. Pierre Jr. Again, somebody named the junior the second kid. So weird. Hmm. Must have had a commitment to name something after somebody's dad or some shit before that. So Pierre Jr. is 20, and he's away at college. So neither of the boys are in the house at this point. They're both out of the house doing their own thing.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They have one child at home, and that is Gail, their daughter, G-A-I-L, not G-A-L-E. She's 14 years old.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So they live in a fucking incredible mansion, these people.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It's a three-story home in a wooded area at 31 Stony Brook Road, and I'll give you the stats on it later, but I'm going to show you a picture of this fucking house.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It looks like an apartment complex.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It's insanity, dude. That's the garage. I don't even know what to say about this fucking place. It looks like four houses, like four big houses they crammed into one house. It is a five bedroom, eight bath, 6,503 square foot house.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
I think Madison's sold out. I'm pretty sure that Portland is sold out. San Diego is sold out. It's really, really. If you want tickets, get them right goddamn now and get in there and do that. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Also, Patreon is what you want. Patreon.com slash CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. Absolutely. And we have so much bonus material for you.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It's bonkers. Dude, this house is all rooms. You'd think there'd be more. It's on a .95 acre wooded lot backed up to woods. It's fucking incredible, this house. These people are doing very well for themselves.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
They bought it a couple years earlier for $75,000, which was an exorbitant amount of money for a house back then. Absolutely like next level expensive. So they're doing very well for themselves here. So the exact date we're going to go to is November 12th, 1962. It is Veterans Day this day. It's a Monday.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
It's very important that it's a Monday and Veterans Day because the kids are home from school this day. It's a holiday for a lot of people, not for Pierre. Pierre is a textile designer.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Yeah, he doesn't get fucking federal holidays off. When you live in a 6,500 square foot house, you work when other people aren't, hopefully, unless you're an inherited asshole.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
So it's a holiday for the kids, though. So Pierre leaves for work at about 7 a.m. He's got a commute to New York City. So he leaves his wife and daughter in the house. They're both asleep. Like I said, the boys are ones at college, ones in Germany. He goes out the kitchen door, which God knows how many doors there are in this fucking house.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
I mean, on the backside, it's got so many, which he closes, but he doesn't lock because it's 1962. This is a very good neighborhood. Yeah. So he doesn't even lock it. They don't even bother locking this giant house up. So he then gets on the train and goes to New York on the commuter train. Okay. Now, here comes what I'd like to call 13 hours of hell.
Small Town Murder
#570 - Twelve Scary Hours - Westport, Connecticut
Okay. Okay. I'll give you a quote. This is Gail, 14-year-old Gail. Quote, I awoke suddenly and thought my watch had stopped. I couldn't seem to figure out what time it was. I put on a red wardrobe over my flowered nightgown and went out into the second floor hallway. I was going to check the time on a grandfather clock downstairs. No phone sitting next to her, nothing like that.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
PUC regulates transportation industries such as taxis, limousines, charter services, and more. They also license trucking. I think it's trucking. So I think he was another trucking thing. Then he has some speeding problems a little bit in like 2007, but that's no big deal. So the guy hasn't been like any kind of menace to society.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Which, I mean, every trucker, if you looked at their –
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Well, if you're driving constantly, there's got to be some infractions. There just has to be. You can't get away scot-free forever.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah. So he's living here with his mom, and his mom said he's terrific, the best guy you could have. He takes care of her, takes care of the house, takes care of everything.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, he's doing just fine. I mean, he's got to be healthier than her, I would think. So he's...
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I don't want to be doing that. But yeah, a lot of yard work he's doing. Like a lot. Way too much.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He lives with his mother, so he's just doing his... Okay. He lives there too. So he's doing all that. It's only one house. He doesn't have to go to his mom's house and cut her lawn too. That would suck. That would suck. So everybody in the neighborhood says he's kind of the neighborhood watchdog. Like he keeps an eye on shit.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
You know, if there was some weirdo there, he'll tell everybody there's some weird guy over here. He'll call the cops all the time on bullshit.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
which is annoying. Wait till you hear how many times he called the cops in a five-year period. You're going to be, I'm surprised they didn't come to his house and take his phone away. Like, that's how many fucking times. Like, give me that and smash it on the ground. No. Just abusing it. You stop that. That is not okay. So 2009 here, he's got a next-door neighbor, right next door.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
The houses are not that far away, named Kenneth Vaughn. Now, basically, they're fighting over a three or four foot area of property. This is mine. No, it's mine. No, it's mine. That's in between their houses. A fence is erected at some point later that we'll talk about. Oh, wow. Because this property line is an issue.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Apparently, now Clarice here, Donald's mom, says that Kenneth, the neighbor, stopped taking his medications and he was crazy. That's what she says. Other neighbors didn't really say that. Like half the neighborhood thinks Donald's an asshole and half of them think he's a good guy. There is no consensus as to whether Donald's a problem or his neighbor's a problem.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Everybody's like, well, I don't know. That guy's kind of an asshole. Yeah, but that Kenneth's a good guy. And they all kind of go back and forth, which is odd. So there's no clear good guy, bad guy scenario here. It's just two neighbors that fight all the time.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It is. The whole street's divided. Apparently, some people think that Donald is jealous of Kenneth for some reason. So he's just jealous. I don't know if he's got a nicer truck or I don't know what he's got.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I don't know. They live next door to each other, so how much better can anyone else be than anybody else who lives next door to them, you know?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Generally, everybody's neighbors are about similar.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, you might go, oh, man, that's a nice car he just got. I like that. But you're not like, I will kill that motherfucker. That fucking guy's got shutters instead of blinds. This is bullshit.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Look at him with his fucking wooden shutters. Like he's... What are those, plantation shutters the guy's putting up? Jesus Christ. Why do we have blinds, babe? This is bullshit. God, look how poor we look. God damn it. So anyway, in 2009 in November, there is apparently an argument that they have in the side yard that escalates to the point where we're not sure who draws first. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
But we're dealing with two armed men. Gunfire. Having a gunfight in the yard. Wow. But only Donald gets a shot off. But the other guy had a gun on him. And had it out and everything. So Donald ends up shooting Kenneth Vaughn and killing him. Oh, no. Kills him. Shoots him to death.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
We're not sure. I'm not sure of the amount of shots here because this didn't get a ton of play because Donald ends up saying, well, he had a gun, too. It's self-defense. OK. And in the end, it goes through the courts and everything like that. And the grand jury, they bring him to a grand jury to see if Donald's going to be charged. And the grand jury says that he acted in self-defense.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So we move along. Well, we move along when he shot his 60-year-old neighbor. God damn. Self-defense moving on. Okay? Okay. So now the house is empty next door, which he was probably thrilled with.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah. Well, no, no. I mean, he stays with his mom. Oh, okay. Kenneth Vaughn's house is empty because he's dead. Oh, Kenneth got shot. Okay. Yeah, Kenneth is dead. So he's fucking dead and he's gone. So Donald's living there with his mom. And then new neighbors move in.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, they're going to move in eventually. Yeah, I suppose.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They don't. That's the thing. They don't know for a while why that house is vacant.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They have no idea that, yeah, your new neighbor killed your old resident here. So be careful.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Maybe don't worry about that three or four feet of property over here. We've settled that beef. Yeah, that beef was settled with gunfire. So this is Laron, L-A-R-O-N, Laron he pronounces it, Laron Justin Estes, E-S-T-E-S. He's 59 years old. And he's got a common law wife, I guess you could call it here. Her name is Barbara Hicks. And they say they're married, but they're not technically married.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They've been together forever. Now, Laron is also an Army veteran.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Also an Army veteran. He is a former, he's a trucker, and he's a former industrial welder. He's done hard shit. War, trucking, industrial welding. Yeah. This guy has lived a life. And at this point, he is also disabled, technically. Well, he fucking should be. Yeah, he's done way more work. In any five-year period of his life, he's done more work than either of us have ever done with our hands.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Combined. Yeah, obviously combined.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Or more, yeah. So, yeah, Laron, like I said, he's a trucker also, as we'll find out. So you would think they would get along. And he and Donald, at first, they do get along.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Oh, they get along. Number one, they're both in the army. They're around the same age. They did the same things. So they start getting along. Like, I mean, the wife here, Barbara, she makes strawberry jam from scratch and gives it to all the neighbors. And, you know, everybody thinks they're nice people. And he hangs out, socializes with Donald there between the properties.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, they have a good old fucking time here. Now, he has some...
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
some criminal record as well here we'll talk about larren um we'll start in 2011 and go backwards uh 2011 possession of more than an ounce of marijuana i mean that's oregon that's oregon who you're in the middle of the fucking nowhere in oregon who gives a shit you should unless you have like a even if you have a garbage bag over i wouldn't give a fuck if you have a speedboat packed with it
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Go ahead. Knock yourself out. But I guess over an ounce you're not allowed to have was the thing, the way it worked. Then in 2011, right before that, or this was the same day, I think he got pulled over is the problem, operating a vehicle without driving privileges. So just no license, just out driving around.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder Express. Ten pounds of murder in a two-pound bag all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station. Here we go.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Nope. July 2011, operating a vehicle without driving privileges. 2009, failure to obey traffic control device. So blowing a red light is what that is. Then in 2008, operating a vehicle without driving privileges. Again, he just doesn't have a license and drives. He doesn't give a shit. Then 2006, criminal driving while suspended.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So then I think they revoked it and he just kept driving from the sounds of everything. In 2004, assault in the fourth degree. Not sure the details of it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I didn't know there was four. That seems like a lot. That's a lot. That's a lot of degrees.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Spit? I was just going to say spit. Did he flick a booger at him maybe? Right. I don't know what he did. What kind of assault?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Kick dirt on him like a manager who's upset with a call at home plate. I have no idea, man. Got to gander at somebody's titties. Something, man. It's weird. Assault in the fourth degree. 2003, in April, driving under the influence of intoxicants. 2001, speeding. Then we'd see, I think when he was in his trucker phase, 2000, exceeding maximum speed for trucks. So I think that would be.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah. What's worse? Influenced or shit faced? Yeah. So that's, you know, these guys have both had their dumb, nothing big, obviously. There's nothing in there that would give you a pause.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
A lot of traffic, a lot of just kind of flouting of, I don't give a shit about conventional shit or whatever. I'm going to move to the middle of nowhere in a town with 200 people in it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It's over the same. Apparently, whoever the fuck shows the person who buys Laron and Kenneth's house what their property is, they say it's in one place and Donald insists that it's in a different place.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Before we get started, just want to let you know, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Not only can you get, if you're listening before these happen, tickets to the Boston and New York live shows. Tarrytown, by the way, is being filmed. So we're going to use it for a bunch of different stuff. So get your voice heard.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
No, that's what I mean. These people are nuts. They're all assholes, everybody here.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, they let him go. Apparently, okay. Donald put up these security lights, and this is before Kenneth moved in. It was like a prison yard, basically. The whole house had crazy, huge lights on it. The big square ones? The big fucking spotlights everywhere. Spotlights, yeah. So it was for his mom.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
His mom was very paranoid about people coming to the house and whatever, so she wanted to be able to see the entire yard at night. So they basically put these lights in so it was like daylight at their house at night. Now, one of these lights would go right into Laren's bedroom, Laren and Barbara's bedroom, and they couldn't fucking sleep, basically.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They tried to put up plastic over their windows, but it was just getting blasted by these floodlights every night. So apparently they asked Donald, could he please maybe point them in a different direction?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I get the security, but one of them is going right in our window. So can we please not have that?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah. And apparently that didn't happen. So Laren went over and just unplugged the lights one night. I can't take it anymore. You laid there and you went, I can't not sleep like this anymore. And you went out and went, duh. That probably felt so good to do. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you more about our safest sponsor, Simply Safe.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
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Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
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Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
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Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
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Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I don't know if you're going to get it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Totally. Well, don't worry. He has a BB gun, and he'll use it later for other purposes now. And this is, again, the same thing as Kenneth. Donald has his supporters in the neighborhood, and Laron has his supporters in the neighborhood.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Get in there also because we're going to be announcing very soon here. Like next week, we're going to be announcing the 2025 tour dates and they're going to go on sale. So be there so you can get your good tickets because people complain. I'm two days late and I'm in the balcony. So please. Yeah, we're happy. Thank you for buying them. So thank you. We're real excited.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Even after Donald shot a guy, half the people were like, Kenneth kind of deserved it. Yeah. The people who are pro-Donald are still pro-Donald, and all the people that were pro-Kenneth have now moved their loyalty over to Laron. That's how this has worked. So shit's fucked up. Laron and Barbara, they were just so annoyed, they considered, why don't we just move?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
But they looked into things and they had just moved into their house and they bought it. And it wasn't financially they couldn't do it. They would lose their asses. So, you know, it's just Donald never thought of moving once. He was staying there. He's not moving shit.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So the apparently Barbara says that and tells a lot of people this at the time and writes in a journal, too, and everything else that apparently Donald regularly would walk the property line.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
back and forth like a century or some shit like like a like a rifle over his shoulder i picture like he's guarding night watchman yeah yeah a century he's a fucking as absolutely so they would and he would be yelling cursing and threatening to kill all the neighbors i'll kill all these fucking people because what she said he'd be yelling because they would not be his friends
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So he is really taken being left out wrong. You didn't invite him over for your barbecue. This is how he chooses to express that dismay is to walk back and forth.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
it's so dude people who live in rural areas sometimes move to the rural areas like this like real i'm not talking i'm talking a 200 person town in the middle of nowhere they do this to get away from people but they buy a house still near other houses and then but they don't want their lights in their window it's like you you're doing what you fucking hate Yes.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
You're being you moved here to be antisocial and now you're going to be actually that other antisocial thing. Yeah, totally. Now, Donald calls the cops constantly, too. So he walks back and forth on the property line, yelling, screaming, cursing that no one wants to be his friend. Yeah. And then he calls the cops.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Throughout about a five-year period here, a couple years with Kenneth and then coming up here with Laron, Donald called the sheriff's department over 200 times. 200 times.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I swear to God, if I was a fucking sheriff, I would come to his fucking house and say, listen, unless somebody is dying, you do not call me or I'm going to come here and beat the shit out of you every time. Almost once a week, man. Think 200 times. That's ridiculous, man. That's an asshole. I'm sorry.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah. It's fucked up. When you say hello and they go, Donald? Yeah. That's a problem.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
We're going to go to a bunch of places we didn't get to this year. Shut up and give me murder.com. Also, Patreon.com. You want that? Oh, yeah. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of your bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you are going to get everything. Whole back catalog full of stuff you've never heard before. And new ones every other week.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And they're taking the phone away going, it's that fucking Donald again. Jesus Christ. Hey, Donald. How's it going? Oh, your neighbor's doing something. Big shocker. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So Donald even told the cops that, I hope I don't have to kill this guy.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
about larry and he said i don't hope i don't have to kill him like i did with kenneth i hope that doesn't happen i hope he doesn't push it to that point hope he doesn't make me yeah he told the cops that so that's kind of a foreshadow that you don't really want to give the cops i would say hope i don't have to commit a fucking horrible felony
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So, 2013 is what I like to call the year of escalation here. This is when it really... 2012, you got some lights unplugged, people calling the cops, marching up and down the property line. 2013 is when the gauntlet is thrown down and it is like, listen.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Oh, there's several events. Laron isn't taking Donald's shit. Donald ain't taking Laron's shit anymore. Okay. Apparently, one thing that pretty much all the neighbors agreed on is Laron, they didn't like his junk pile.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He is redoing a lot of the house, Laron and his wife.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He's doing a lot, so he's pulling crap out and pulling junk out and doing stuff like that. He's digging a koi pond. How much room does this guy have?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
apparently a good amount a good amount of land here so he he's doing all this and he's while you're in a remodel you have shit basically yeah a lot of people will have a dumpster brought to their house to throw all the shit in so their house doesn't look like the fucking beverly hillbillies and or back behind the fence on the side somewhere like that fucking vanities and old tiles
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He just has a massive junk pile in the yard. Wow. It's just a massive junk pile that just grows by the fucking day. And the neighbors are not thrilled about that. They're like, we have to look at Laren's shit junk pile. So that annoys everybody, and Donald especially. Good God. Oh, he's right next door. You're besmirching him for sure at that point.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Now, Laren at some point also, there's an apple tree.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
that is i guess somewhere near the property line we don't we're not sure exactly where the tree falls on property if a tree falls and on a disputed property property line does anyone hear it you know what i mean does it make a sound it makes an argument it makes an argument so apparently larren cut the apple tree down for no apparent reason it wasn't dead or you know it's just he just cut it down didn't want it is it it's on his property
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
We don't know. That's the thing. It's kind of straddling, so we're not sure. He cut it down. The mom here, Donald's mom, super pissed, said it made nice apples. Why'd he cut it down? So they had a huge argument over that. He cut down my apple tree. No, it's my apple tree. No, it's my apple tree. Okay. Apparently, Donald would use his leaf blower at odd hours of the night.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Two in the morning, he'd just go out with his leaf blower and
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It's the loudest thing ever. It's impossible to sleep through. Yeah. Have you ever seen AP Bio with Glenn Howerton? Yeah. Okay. When he's fighting with his neighbor, Christopher Lloyd, and Glenn Howerton's in there trying to mack on this girl in there and put a movie on, and they're going to get it going, and then-
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder. And you're going to go, why is it Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports? That's our other show that you should listen to, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Christopher Lloyd's just in the front leaning against his car with his fucking alarm in his hand, just turning it on and off all the time. He goes, just testing out my alarm because they're in a big dispute. And that's what this reminds me of. It's just being petty.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah. Doing shit on purpose to piss the other person off. Now, Laron has dogs that bark all the time.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Well, yeah, the reason is when you hear, they're chihuahuas, too. Chihuahua barks.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They're so rapid. Not only that, Laren and Barbara, to get some extra income because they're on disability, Social Security, that sort of thing, they decided to start breeding and raising and selling chihuahuas for some extra income. So there's points where there's 30 chihuahuas over there.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Imagine that cacophony of 30 chihuahuas barking.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Oh, my God. No shit. So, anyway, it pisses obviously Donald off a lot.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And your stupid opinions, for that matter. This week, what you're going to get...
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Well, they also have pet problems we'll talk about. Oh, my God. They didn't have the proper permits to be breeding chihuahuas. Of course not. Now, when Donald calls the cops on them and the people come out, they find that they are in perfectly good conditions. They're not being bred in bad conditions. They probably could have got a permit. They're doing everything by the book.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They just don't have a permit for them. So the animals aren't being abused or anything. Right.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
still they're they don't have you have to have a permit to breed fucking chihuahuas yeah so there's that um so now you know donald's like haha yeah i got him in trouble right now larin doesn't like cats donald's mom has somewhere in the neighborhood of between 20 and 30 cats of course yeah nobody's normal in this neighborhood that's the point okay so she's got 30 cats now
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
for patreon is for crime and sports we're going to talk about this gross english football soccer sexual abuse scandal it's pretty gross it's think penn state with a british accent penn state with tea think that that's what we're going for there then for small town murder we're going to talk about this cult baby murder trial not really going to talk about the trial we're mainly going to talk about these people's insanity of their lifestyle
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
That's too many cats, I would say, for anybody. You shouldn't, anyway. I mean, you can gather as many as you want. You can gather as many as you can hold out a can of tuna for as long as you want, probably.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
You're allowed. So apparently only a couple of them are outdoor cats. Oh, God. Only a couple of them. So that's imagine the litter boxes in there. Hopefully, hopefully the litter boxes. Now, what Laron would say, the cops, the cops, the cats keep coming. It would be really funny if it was the cops for what I'm going to say. The cops keep coming onto my property and shitting in my vegetable garden.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It would be very different than the cats come over and shit my vegetable garden. Yeah. I just pictured a guy in full uniform, pants down, squatting like that. Somebody. A whole utility belt around his ankle. Yeah, like holding it up by the belt. That's what I figured. So that's, so Larry and Barbara would complain that they have so many cats.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They get into the garden and then Donald and his mother would say, that's not true. These cats don't go on your property. Meanwhile, they're outdoor cats. They go wherever the fuck they want. There's no, they don't know of a property line.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
that's happening no other way it's happening and he sees them too they see them wandering around their yard and shit like that and uh yeah so they would do that they get into the garden all the time um so this there's no legal thing here so that just escalates the argument um uh larin at one point put up a giant plastic like black plastic barrier yeah to block the light coming from the security lights because unplugging it wasn't a permanent solution apparently
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So he puts up like 20-foot high black plastic, like a giant fucking wall between the two houses of black plastic so they can see that. So then Donald installed another light that shined around that to get onto the property. Yeah, just to be a dick. So Donald would start. He'd go out. He had a diesel truck that was very loud.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He'd go out in the middle of the night and just start it up and leave it running for an hour. Just an hour. Yeah. Well, he leaf blows probably. God damn it. So they're obviously trying to piss each other off, especially Donald is definitely trying to piss Laron off. I don't know if Laron's trying to piss Donald off or just retaliating when things get done.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
That's what I mean. And that's the dispute in the neighborhood is whose fault this is. When there's two grown men involved here, this is grumpy old men taken to a fucking extreme.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I mean, you know, those two were just put a fish in the car and they joke around and, hey, asshole, and hey, shithead, and, you know.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, he did. Yeah, that's all. She sprayed the hose up there. They were doing, like, 12-year-old pranks. These people are trying to make each other's lives miserable. Right. Someone then shot out Donald's lights.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And he suspected Laron did it. No shit. Good guess. Good guess. The guy who unplugged them and put plastic up to hide from. He probably lost it one night. Couldn't take it anymore.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So Donald calls the sheriff on Laron again. And Laron says, I didn't shoot out the lights.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
There's no way to prove it. So that's that. I mean, it's his word against his word. Who knows? Could have been anybody. A lot of people pissed off at him in those stupid lights. Donald had 13 security lights aimed at Laren's windows at one point. All just aimed at... He was just going on Amazon, fucking buying... Ooh, that one's strong. How many watts is that? Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
polygamy and drinking pee and it's real weird stuff man we're going to talk all about all sorts of strange medical beliefs they have it's real weird we'll talk all about that and more patreon.com slash crime in sports that said i think it's time everybody let's do this i think it's time to clear the lungs what do you say here let's all arms to the sky let's all shout Shut up and give me murder.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Let's get it. Wow, look at that. I could land a plane with that fucking thing. Awesome. So apparently someone, don't know who, wounded two of Donald's mom's cats with a pellet gun.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Not killed them, but wounded them with a pellet gun. So obviously they blame Laron for that because... And that's a dick move. You don't shoot people's animals with a pellet gun. It's not their fault. They're cats. They're going to go where they go. If they're let outside, they're going to go wherever they go.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And especially if there's nice soft dirt to shit in, that's where they're going to go shit. There's no other way of avoiding that.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Full of cat shit. Cats from everywhere will find it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I remember in elementary school, it was like that was before anybody went in the sandbox. You better fucking sift that shit first and throw the cat shit out of it because it's going to be wherever there are little drag marks and a mound.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
There's for sure shit. I think in elementary school there was, like, a little shovel by it, like a little plastic shovel to, like, get cat shit out of it. I think it was. I think they learned one of those, like, rake things, like a sand set, like a beach set. Like a beach set that comes in a bucket, basically. It was, like, one of those next to it so you could fucking get the shit out of it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Just a giant mountain of cat shit. So, yeah, you don't do that. You go after the people, not the animals for doing that. Laron denies harming animals because he loves animals. He goes, I'm an animal lover. I wouldn't shoot fucking animals. I wouldn't shoot cats.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Look at all the chihuahuas I got here. Now, who knows, too, if they were letting the cats wander around the neighborhood, maybe the cats, maybe they were shitting in somebody else's idea. I feel like none of the neighbors here are super... friendly or whatever. Maybe they might be friendly, but I feel like all of them are going to be standoffish when pushed, you know?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
What it feels like here. So, yeah, Animal Control is called again about Lara not having licensing to breed dogs. Donald contacted the media and Animal Control to try to, like, The local media to try to shame Laron. Apparently animal control took some of the dogs and Laron was fined for ordinance violations and he couldn't breed dogs anymore because now they were, you know, they were watching him.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I suppose, but I guess they don't bark. So you don't know they're there.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
But when it's feed time, it's so loud. Holy shit. If you walked into a house with 20 cats, besides the smell, you'd probably see four cats. Yeah. The rest of them would be hiding in places looking at you. You might see four cats and 12 sets of eyes. Yes. So anyway, yeah, he gets fine, Laren. Apparently at one point,
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
There was some kind of argument and Donald's mom was outside and she was over on the other property and arguing, so Laren sprayed her with a hose. Which is the equivalent of spraying a water bottle at a cat to me. You like cats so much? Here you go. I'll treat you like one. He hit her with the water hose. He hit her with the hose. So Donald came over, threatened to kill Laren for that.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
spray my mom with a hose um donald would talk shit about larin every fucking where he could to everybody he could he called not only the sheriff's department animal control he called every government agency he could get to try to get him in trouble he called the newspapers the fucking television state everybody he called the epa about a polluted well on larin's property he called the epa for christ's sake
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I don't know. He said, hello, EPA? My neighbor's got a polluted well.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Okay. And then at one point, I guess, someone removed a property stake from Laren's land. Obviously, probably Donald here. By the way, the polluted well, the reason why it's still polluted is apparently the way it works is Laren would need to use Donald's property to get shit out of the well because it's the shit in the well. But Donald won't let Laren use his property. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So he won't let him use it, but then he'll call the cops on him and say it's polluted, so it's important. Someone removed a property stake, so a surveyor had to come out to redo it. And while the surveyor's out there, he goes, man, he goes, yeah, your neighbor, that's some kind of something there, huh? And he goes, oh, yeah, that guy's a pain in the ass.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He goes, well, hopefully you don't end up like the last guy. And Laron went, huh? They didn't tell. Nobody told him. This is how he found out? Nobody, none of the neighbors, none of the fucking real estate, nobody said, hey, last guy who lived here at Beef with him, he shot to death. No one said that to Laron. Oh, my God. What the fuck? Are you kidding me?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? All right. We have to. We are going to Oregon this week. Yeah. Out to Oregon, which is very nice, and I think Portland is on our touring schedule next year again, which we love Portland, so that'll be fun. But we're not going to Portland for this episode. We're going to Kirby, Oregon.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He goes, oh, no, yeah, he shot this Kenneth Vaughn. Fucking shot him to death, man. He goes, but they claim self-defense and all that. So, Laron was a little scared. Puzzled, yeah. A little puzzled, a little put off. He didn't realize. Then, right after that, he receives a letter, Laron does, from the VA hospital, the Veterans Administration Hospital.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It is from a psychiatrist at the local Veterans Administration Hospital.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Now, you ever gotten a letter from a psychiatrist at the VA before? I haven't.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
This isn't someone he's seeing or anything like that. This psychiatrist is sending Larry a letter cautioning him that, hey, there's a guy named Donald who apparently is your neighbor. Yeah. Basically, when he talks to me, Donald, because Donald goes there for therapy, he just threatens to kill you the whole time. That's all it is. It's just, I'm going to kill that son of a bitch for an hour.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
No, no, no. Threatening to kill him, not just motherfucking him. Talking about ways he's going to kill him. Should I blow up his house? Should I shoot him? Should I do all that? So, yeah, so much so that a psychiatrist actually has to go outside of the confidentiality to warn somebody about it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Now, I don't know if the proper thing is to warn the actual person or if you're supposed to go to the authorities with that, but I'm not a doctor, so I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to send an unsolicited letter to the person. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Oh. A K-E-R, like derby with a K. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So Kirby, Oregon, southwest, like extreme southwestern Oregon near the California border. Coastal ship. Coastal, not quite to the coast. No. It's inland. It's very close to Cave Junction, which we did an episode there. That was the pollinator. Remember that guy? Oh, yeah. Yeah. The pollinator here, that's Cave Junction. It's real close to that.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Hey, just to warn you. And this guy, the psychiatrist, though, advised him to contact the police immediately to try to get a restraining order. Because he said, this guy, it's escalating.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
That's what I mean. He told you. They're going to believe you. He said, but I would try to get, well, he said, I would try to get a restraining order against him. He said, because he goes, this guy, it's escalating how much he's talking about you. So just to let you know, you know, you got issues here. Yeah. So Lauren goes to the court to try to get a restraining order with this letter going.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I got a letter from a fucking shrink saying, you know, this blah, blah, blah. The judge wouldn't allow the letter from the VA into evidence.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Due to rules of evidence, I guess. I don't know what those rules were. And psychiatrists couldn't be at the hearing. They couldn't make it there. So the restraining order was denied. Wow. So, yeah, he can't get a restraining order. Okay. So what he does instead is Laron gets a big, giant piece of plywood.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And fucking writes the word murderer on it with an arrow pointing to fucking Donald's house.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He puts it like on his house with a fucking arrow pointing over there. Murder that way. So I don't know. Maybe that'll keep him from murdering me. So that seems like kind of angering the hive, I would think. But OK.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Donald, extremely pissed about the sign. Real mad about that. Doesn't want to be called a murderer. Yeah, he reached out to the media again and asked for help. Hey, will you, you know, shame this guy? They're like, but didn't you kill your neighbor that lived there?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I mean, you're a killer at least. Murder is a legal term. Yeah, that's not really that's not a technical term, but you killed him for sure. How about killer?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, exactly. Murder is a legal definition, whereas killing is just you fucking person was alive and now they're not anymore. You fuck that up because of your actions. Yeah, because of your actions. Then there's the fence from hell, as they called it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It seems like no one knows who put this fence up, by the way. One side says the other side put it up. One side says the other side put it up. Back and forth.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I think they're building it from both sides. I really believe that that's what's going on. It's like the Berlin Wall. There's different shit going on both sides of this shit. It consists of, in addition to mainly black plastic, but to hold the black plastic all together is pallets, chicken wire, barbed wire, whatever shit they can find. Yeah. To make a barrier, basically.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Like their post office, I believe, is Cave Junction technically here. So this is about four and a half hours to Portland if you take a straight shot up along the ocean. It is eight hours to Ontario, Oregon. which is our last Oregon episode. It's literally as far away as two places could be in the state of Oregon.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Exactly. Now, Lauren says Donald built it, and it's on his property. So he tells him, move that fucking fence onto your property, and Donald said, no, not doing it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So Lauren started to fear for his life, because he got that letter, he's starting to get freaked out. August 30th, 2013... Local police still haven't taken any action. They just come out there and they go, these two idiots again. Cut it out, assholes. And then they get back in their car. A physical altercation breaks out here. Apparently, they get into an argument.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And Laron, this is according to documents here, grabbed Donald by the hair, punched him in the face, and kicked him in the head and the sides. He beat the shit out of him, is what that is.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He grabbed him, punched him, knocked him down, then stomped him. That's what he did. Kicked the piss out of the guy. Apparently this caused pretty good injuries to Donald here, taking an ass whooping, and made him fear for his life, he said, Donald. He was terrified now.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
For sure. When you're 5'5", a buck thirty, you should probably... Not be starting physical altercations with people. With industrial welders. Maybe not.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah. No. And he's like, Laron's like a fucking hippie, too. He, like, smokes weed and he's digging a koi pond. Right. I don't think this is normal behavior here. So an attorney told Donald to get a restraining order, and they were basically, they ended up getting a restraining order. Donald did against Laron. Really?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Because they were successful using the elderly laws because he was like – You can't punch old people. He was like 64 and Laron was 59, so he wasn't that old yet.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I think it's – this would be 60 – in 2000, he'd be like 63 at this point.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Oh, is he? Okay, all right. But it's on – one guy's on one side of 60 and one guy's on the other side of 60, which makes it – Meanwhile, one was a sophomore while the other was a senior. What are we talking about here?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, we's legal. So anyway, he gets a restraining order, and now it's even worse now. So Laron wanted one, couldn't get one. Donald got one against him.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And like we said, the neighbors here are like, Jesus Christ, you know, this is nuts. Like the whole thing is crazy. And they're starting to just blame Donald because they're like, OK, well, this is two guys in a row.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And it's the same. Yeah. Yeah. There's one common thing here.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
One asshole. So Donald started carrying a gun whenever he was outside of his house on the property so he wouldn't get beat up again, he said. Okay. There was different times where both of them were pointing guns at each other from over the fences, making threats at each other. Okay. September 7th, 2013. Okay. Now, the fence is the issue. The fence from hell.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yes, because Ontario is at the extreme northeast, and this is the extreme southwest, so it's just this long, long trip. That was episode 503, My Dead Mother Told Me To, which was obviously crazy, you can tell by the title. This is in Josephine County, which we've never heard before as a county. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
On this day, I guess Donald said that he was working on the fence on his side of the fence, working on it, while on a ladder installing more barbed wire. Okay. Now, his mother, by the way, is in the house, even though she'll back up his story 100% later. She's in the house.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Barbara, Laren's wife here, says that Laren had taken his truck over to the fence and was in the bed of his truck making repairs to his side of the fence. So they're both doing shit over there. He's using his truck as a ladder. Apparently, out of nowhere, Barbara was outside. She heard a gunshot. And it was Donald firing at Laron as Laron was running away in the opposite direction.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He shot Laron three times in the back, by the way, from a decent distance. He claims that the reason he did this is because Laron, he was just repairing the fence and out of nowhere, like, this is ridiculous, dude. This is like a fucking horror movie. All of a sudden, a hole burst through the plastic and Laron came through the plastic to kill him. Yeah. He just, here he was.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So he's like, oh, my God, my only recourse is to pull my gun.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yep. He said he took his gun and he shot. He said he fired two shots in self-defense. Meanwhile, he shot three times, by the way. So he definitely didn't fire twice. Barbara said that Laron was attempting to abide by the restraining order. She said he was happy about the restraining order because that kept Donald away from him. It's effectively the same thing as us getting one.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It just kept us apart. So he said that he fell down. He was reaching over. He fell into the fence from the bed of the pickup truck. She said he fell into the fence. He didn't go through the fence. He just fell into it. And that apparently set Donald off. She said she had just walked away to get something from the garage.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And she said Laron was running away when she was watching him run away while three shots were fired. And the third shot struck him good, I guess. I think he got shot twice, though. Yeah, Donald fired his weapon, hit him in the back, and Laron bled out and died on the property.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, two from the same fucking house Donald's killed.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So now Barbara Hicks, the Larry's wife, saw the shooting and told investigators there was no fight. There was no anything. He fell into the fence and then Donald threatened him and Larry tried to run away and Donald shot him in the back. There's really no.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
A shot in the back is hard to defend. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Population, and I don't know if this is seasonal or how this works, but it's anywhere from 201 to 628, somewhere in there. Either way, real goddamn small.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I tried to take him back to like poltergeist through the TV and pull him into the other side here. So I guess easily said at that point, Donald said, I dropped my hammer and grabbed the pistol I was wearing in a holster and I just fired toward him. I just didn't even think about it. He said, if I didn't have a pistol, I'd be beat up, maybe dead on his side of the fence.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He's going to drag me over and kill me over there. You know what I mean? That's what he has to do. So this is from Detective Brian Scott, who's working this case. He said, Okay. Wow. Ms.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Hicks, that's Barbara, states that there was no altercation between Mr. Easley and her boyfriend prior to the shooting and that Mr. Easley stuck his hand through a hole in the fence and shot Mr. Estes in the back as he was attempting to get away from the property line. Okay. Wow. That is wild.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
The next day after the shooting, Barbara files for a stalking protective order against Donald and she's granted it. He already killed my husband, so maybe now I get it. So now they're thinking, do we arrest him or not? He's not immediately arrested, Donald.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
This shit goes on for like a month where they're trying to figure out what to do. Investigators said they needed to look at the situation. And he's shot in the back.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Period. And it's not even on your property where you could do some kind of castle doctor and stand your ground all that. He's on another property. Yeah. Fleeing from you.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
There's not a lot of legal legs to stand on here for him. So they said because he shot in the back, that means that Laron was running away from him, not toward him. His self-defense is really it's hard to beat someone up as you're running from them.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It's a census-designated place. It's not a big place at all and doesn't have a lot of municipal things happening. It's got to be like Quartz Island. It's kind of like that sort of thing. Median household income here, way lower than the national average. It's $69,000 in the rest of the country. Here, $37,219. What's happening? Median home cost is $330,900. So how do those two things?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So he is arrested. He is charged with murder with a firearm and unlawful use of a weapon with a firearm. So here's another strange stat, okay? This is crazy. Barbara, this is the fourth husband that's died. She's a quadruple widow.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
What are the odds of a guy... Shooting the second neighbor who also happens to be the fourth dead husband of somebody. What are the odds of that? Like, how often does that ever happen in this world?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, it's not even it's not her fault. She's just bad luck. You're a jinx. Fuck off. I don't want to be around her.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Wow. She said, I'm lost. I'm lost without. I love him and I miss him very much is her statement. Maybe I'll find somebody else. That is crazy. So the investigators state from the beginning that the Vaughn shooting, the first one, Kenneth Vaughn shooting four years earlier, had not influenced the investigation at all. Although, how would it not take that into account? It's not.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It's too big a coincidence. Otherwise, you know, he's held on no bail here. He's denied bail. Barbara said that the weight got some a little breath there, a sigh of relief that, you know, he's not going to be next door while this is going on. She said, I'm very grateful to know he's not going to be released, that we can all rest easy.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So, yeah. Yeah. She said that she'll at least she'll feel safe. She said it's in God's hands. It's in the justice system right now. And he'll pay for what he's done. So, yeah, she supported. She came to all the court shit here. Now, Estes' mother and brother would also come there and, you know, watch everything. This is his mother. This is Laren's mother.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
There's a four-letter word that describes Laren.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
L-O-V-E. Yeah. When someone says that, you go, what? Which one? Which one? Shit. Oh, shit. So the trial comes up, basically, and they're trying to a lot of it kind of centers around the fence from hell, like a lot of this beef did before trial.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Donald moved for an order to instruct the state to refrain absolutely from making any reference whatsoever about his involvement in a prior altercation with his previously shot neighbor. Don't bring up my prior here, which resulted in the death.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It's got to be retirees, yeah? Some retirees, some people who kind of go out here to do their own thing kind of a thing. This is do-your-own-thing territory. This is a place you go when you're tired of people, essentially, which is kind of coincidental and ironic because that's the problem today that we have is people with other people that they try to get away from. A little bit of history here.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He argued that any evidence referring to that incident would be inadmissible because the evidence is too unreliable to meet the threshold for admissibility. Well, did you shoot him and is he dead? Pretty reliable.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, that the evidence is not relevant and therefore not admissible. I don't think there's any evidence on Earth that could be more relevant than this. And he did the exact same fucking thing that the evidence is improper character evidence and admissible under basically only if he takes a stand and makes character an issue, then it's admissible.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
That's a character issue, not a prior is what he's saying.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And the prejudicial effect of the evidence outweighing its probative value to the jury. In other words, you don't let them know I shot another guy.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Obviously. So the state responded that although the evidence that he shot Kenneth was not independently relevant, it was made relevant by the evidence that the defendant stated on a number of different occasions to a number of different people that Laron was at risk of beating the same fate as Vaughn. Hope I don't have to shoot him like the last one. That makes it relevant.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
The state said that without knowing what happened to Vaughn, the jury would not recognize the defendant's statements as threats to kill Estes. So you have to let him in. The state argued that the evidence of the threat spoke to his state of mind and therefore were admissible.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
The court ruled that the evidence was relevant for the limited reasons articulated by the state to explain what the defendant meant when he told people what happened to Vaughn might happen to Estes. They're going to be a bunch of witnesses come up. He said that same thing that's going to happen to that guy. They don't know what that means.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And further, that the evidence that the defendant had made those threats was relevant to show his state of mind and negate his claim of self-defense. Donald also moves at trial to introduce a range of evidence of Laron's character and his propensity for violence and aggression to show that Donald had a reasonable belief that he needed to shoot Estes to defend himself.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
The evidence consisted primarily of testimony from eight witnesses regarding Estes' reputation for violence and aggression and the witness's opinion of Estes' violent and aggressive behavior, as well as some evidence regarding specific circumstances of violent and aggressive conduct.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
The court admitted some of the evidence but ruled that Donald had failed to establish an adequate foundation to allow for the admission of most of the testimony regarding Estes' reputation and other people's opinions of his character. They exclude an audio recording, the trial judge.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
of a conversation involving Donald, a neighbor of his, and two unidentified persons, in which one person stated she believed that Laron had fired a shotgun into the air, and another person said that he saw Laron with a pistol. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
The court reasoned that absent testimony from the defendant about what he was thinking at the time of the shooting, it would be speculative to infer that the instances of Estes' conduct discussed on the tape bore on his belief. So basically, if you want to put that in, you better get on the stand and tell them that that's what you thought.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
We're not just going to put a tape in and let you not testify, but let you basically testify from an audio recording. Not going to do that, the judge said. Okay. So they also ruled that the neighbor could not testify regarding specific instances of conduct by Estes. They apparently would have testified that she observed him possess and use a gun.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
OK, also excluding testimony from another witness that said that Laron had once tried to poke her with a pitchfork. He's just a little devil, that's all. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Sometimes you got to kill a guy. Prosecutor said Estes backed his truck up to the fence to make some repairs, was standing in the bed of his truck. Estes realized easily he had a gun. He started running, and he said Mr. Estes was shot in the back while retreating at a distance. The defense would argue that when calling 911, Barbara didn't mention that Lahren fell into the fence then.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They also, she was too worried about can you get an ambulance here so my husband doesn't die. They also pointed out she had apparently stated that she heard Easley yell out, not Lahren. Probably don't shoot me. Put your gun away. They admit evidence that Donald shot his neighbor prior, shot Vaughn, like we said, for a state of mind.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Barbara corroborated the evidence that Donald intentionally killed Laron. She testified that.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It's often listed in tourist guides as a ghost town. Even though there's people here.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
larry that donald started shooting at larry through the fence dividing the neighbor's properties as uh after he slipped at the fence so verdict comes up this could go i mean you get some rural oregon people yeah they might go i mean shit he beat the shit out of him last month who knows anything could happen everybody should leave everybody alone they find him yeah Guilty of murder.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Can't do it in the back. If he shot him in the front, he could have said anything he wanted.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
If he's 30 feet away with a gunshot wound in his back, that's not self-defense ever. You took the gun out. That got him away from you. That's it. End of story.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
You don't have to use it every time.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So during sentencing, he makes a rambling statement here. He apologized to the family, he said. You know, not Barbara, though. No? Nope, she can fuck off. Not Barbara. And he repeatedly proclaimed his innocence.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Because of the number of historic buildings left from back in the day, from the 1800s. They're just there. Kirby came into existence in the 1850s. It was named for James Kirby. And there was a gold mining. That's why they were here originally. It was Northern California. Yeah, it was Northern California. They went up and...
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He stood there and he just rambled and rambled, blamed everybody else. This guy's an asshole and this one and Barbara's a twat and my mom's got cats. All this shit here. He accused Barbara of lying and would basically... While he is asking for mercy, he is just talking shit about the victim and his victim's wife. Yeah. They're pieces of shit and all this stuff and everything. I'm so sorry.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
The judge said, well, number one, you're blaming everybody here but yourself.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
No responsibility. And to that, I say you, sir, may fuck off life in prison with parole. No parole for 25 years. He's 65. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
so i don't think so come on 90 yeah i don't think so you might get out as you're dying in your 80s with that you know whatever they do now geriatric right consideration he's also ordered to pay over four thousand dollars in restitution to barbara as well which you know that pissed him off a lot that's a big deal yeah Yeah, he appeals in 2018. Basically, it's all bullshit.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
He's saying they should have let in that reputation and opinion of character evidence. They should not let his in and they should have let more of Laren's in is what he's saying. That audio recording that was excluded saying they said that should have been in there. And also the.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
specific instances of conduct of basically he wanted to bring in anytime larren ever told someone to fuck off in traffic yeah he wanted to bring that person in and say see how bad of a guy he is and that really isn't relevant here so his appeal is denied yeah he is currently residing at the two rivers correctional institution near two rivers Which sounds lovely, but I'm sure it's not.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They come together. This is nice. He is in there for a long fucking time, obviously. Like we said, he started his sentence in September 2014. So 25 years from then, we're talking 2039. He'll be dead. That's that. That, everybody, is Kirby, Oregon.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
What a fucking wild shit that is. Holy Christ. Neighbors, just chill. Everybody chill.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Get along, man. Yeah, just try to go. I mean, the lights. I get it, though. It just escalates. Anyway, if you like that story, if you like any of our stories, get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. Say something nice. Tell everyone. Get on social media. Tell your friends. Tell your neighbors when they're yelling at you. Go, you should listen to Small Town Murder, cocksucker.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Maybe we won't fight anymore. Maybe you'll understand why this is a bad idea for us to fight. So do that. Hang out with us. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Tickets for live shows. Tarrytown, couple left. Boston, couple left. New tour being announced very soon, within this week. When you're listening to this, it might already be up. So check that out. New cities coming there.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all of your bonus material. Anybody, $5 a month, you get all hundreds of back episodes you've never heard, new ones every other week. This week, one crime and sports, one Swallowtown murder, you get it all. Crime and sports, we are going to talk about some disgusting English soccer sex scandal. It's just gross. Pedophiles and weirdos and...
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Fucking creepy people. Oh, my. And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about the cult baby murder trial people, which is polygamy and pee drinking and all sorts of weird shit going on there and fucking cult culling teenage girls from bus stations. Golly. Weird stuff. Patreon.com slash Grime and Sports. Follow us. You get a shout-out at the end of the regular show, too.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
James. James Kirby. No, he's just a guy who was here.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Keep hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media, it's all at ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Drop-down menus abound. Keep coming back and seeing us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Just a guy hanging out. He had a business here, I guess, and came here early.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Important to the area here. The original county seat was a place. They wanted it to be the county seat, basically.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
That's what they were doing, because as we know, you've got to have those records. That's the most important thing on the planet. Important thing ever, yeah, to have the records in your town. We had no idea. The original county seat was a place called Sailor Diggings. Okay. Which they eventually renamed Waldo, somehow a less attractive name than Sailor Diggings.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
One of the polling places was listed as Kirby's Ranch when they were doing this voting for this. So I guess James Kirby and Samuel Hicks were partners in a general mercantile and supply business.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They were running a hardware business. They were...
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Seth and Saul and Deadwood, basically. Then they called the town Kirbyville for the county seat race, and it was selected as the county seat in 1857.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Not anymore. Then they changed it from Kirbyville to Napoleon. Because the county was Josephine and they wanted Napoleon as the town. Josephine, Napoleon. Okay. The new name was a stupid name and obviously not popular being that you're thousands of miles from France. It's probably not going to be that popular.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
And he's kind of a dick. So they changed it back in the next legislative session here. They called it Kirbyville. They called that years. And then finally they just called it Kirby after a while. They gave up. And then they lost the county seat to Grants Pass. So there you go. That's how this went. So this really hasn't gone well for this town. They really fumbled everything. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They started out with high hopes and it just all went downhill from there. Shit did not work out. Reviews of this town. There's only one review of this town that I could find because there's nobody here. I was shocked there was one review. It's five stars, but yet it doesn't seem like five stars when you read it. It's weird. Lived here my whole life is the first sentence. That says a lot.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It's sketchy during the day and creep-tastic during the night.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Five stars. Yeah, five stars. Not even nice during the day. Creepy. It never gets better than sketchy. That's fucking scary as shit. Anywhere from sketchy to creep-tastic. Anywhere in that narrow window is what we're talking about.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, like, oh, look at them go. Like crackheads are like having sword fights in the street, you know, like, but good ones are like they're trained, you know, on guard and they start going at each other.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
They really, really get into it. Use the wrapping paper for the cape. Obviously, yeah. So they said there are many lovely bridges under which to pump drugs into your veins. That's nice. And the friendly convenience store owners know that most of Kirby can't just drive into Cave Junction to get cheap groceries, so they price accordingly. Okay. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It's crackheads and gougers now we're talking about.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, obviously. We've got a bus stop right in the middle of town, which is convenient, and you might even meet a homeless person or tweaker while waiting for said bus. Pretty Riverview.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Five stars. How is that five stars? They said one thing positive. Pretty Riverview. The last sentence. Everything else negative.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
As you watch a man pump $12 worth of meth into his veins. Things to do here. The Acorn Festival. Okay. Oh, boy. Now, what do you think happens at the Acorn Festival?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
That is, dude, I'm laughing because that is exactly what I pictured. I thought this shit was going to be based around squirrels for some reason. I don't know why. Alvin and the chipmunks sing.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
squirrels and turkeys and shit monks and shit like that it's not though it's a family-friendly kid-friendly festival obviously no the acorn festival that's where all the tits are out everybody just gets horny going on there balls out everybody acorn festival time it says fun and educational event celebrating acorns okay learn how to process acorn into what into what
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Maybe. I don't know. My woods is all fucking giant acorns. I've never thought to process them. I just go, oh, the turkeys are going to love these. It's from an oak, right? Yeah, a red oak. Well, any oak, but I have red oaks in my yard, and we'll gather them up and put them on the food pile for the deer and shit, and they eat them. I don't know. I never thought to process them.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Taste traditional acorn mush cooked in a basket. Mush. What? Okay. Could you have any less attractive way to say something as we're making acorn mush in a basket? In a basket. It's not the thing I want to eat out of either. Acorn mush in a basket?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Yeah, I'm disgusted by this. A scarecrow contest, couldn't say that for some reason, with a $100 prize. Oh, there are bucks. You're going to probably put more than $100 into the materials to make them. Then there's an acorn feast and more.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
What do you do? A basket weaver named Lena Hurd will cook acorn mush in a basket. I assume she weaved herself. That's all I can imagine here. She makes the basket, yeah. That's it. And then there's also the Kirbyville Museum, which I read a review of it, and they said it's basically a house with some old shit in it, and it costs $6, and it's really not worth it.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
There's that. They said it looked pretty neat, but they said $6 per adult. But they were nice to them anyway. Very friendly. So that's good to know. That said, let's talk about some murder, everybody, shall we? Let's do it. All right. Let's talk about a man first here. Donald Lee Easley. E-A-S-L-E-Y. Easley. He's born in 1949. He was in Vietnam. Vietnam vet. He did two tours, as a matter of fact.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Went back? I'm back, yeah. Oh, boy. He's disabled at this point, technically. I mean, I think he gets, you know. Sure. It seems like everybody in this neighborhood is disabled. Like, not disabled like they can't do anything. Disabled like that's their job is getting, they get a check. And I mean, I don't know if that's from war things or other things.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Because everybody's also an ex-truck driver here, which is another. Everybody's an ex-soldier slash truck driver in this town. A lot of them.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
It happens. No, it's true. Yeah, they get all sorts of cardiovascular problems and clots and shit.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Oh, you will be thrombosed to the max. Forget about your thrombosis. You have no idea.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
So Donald's an Army veteran, two tours, disabled. He's a little guy, too, 5'5", 130 pounds, little guy.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
Little tiny guy here. Come, we'll start about 2009-ish. He's living with his elderly mother.
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
i believe her name is clarice their father her father's been dead for years and so he takes care of his mother here um so you know 2009 that would make him in that area 60 so she's got to be in her 80s so it's we're talking about you know an old lady here and uh they live it's a very rural area um now he's got a couple of issues with the law but nothing major well until 2009 um
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
One is I found, this is crazy, I don't know what this means, violation of basic rule he was arrested for. The golden rule? Was he not nice to somebody? Yeah. What is that about? Basic rule. He didn't puff puff give like he was fucking Bogart and shit?
Small Town Murder
#552 - Too Many Dead Neighbors - Kerby, Oregon
I don't know what happened, but that was in 1999. He lost some manners. So it took him 50 years, but manners went out the fucking window here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
It's kind of a tough thing. I feel bad for old Seth Green.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
This Seth Green is 27, and he doesn't have the same amount of money. He's a construction worker. Oh, no. 27-year-old construction worker. Learn voices, Seth. Yeah, please. And he just started dating a new young lady. Hell yeah. The relationship is less than a week old. It's like six days old here. They don't even know anything about each other.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
No, he met a young lady named Amanda Lynn Plass, P-L-A-S-S-E, Plass. So Amanda, another Lynn, by the way, our regular small town murder this week, had both the murder and victim were named middle names of Lynn. So Lynn here, Amanda here, she's a little chick too. She's 5'1", about 100 pounds, 20 years old, big personality. She's known, very outgoing, very free-spirited. She's an artist.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
She has tattoos all over her. She's just like a real kind of cool chick here. She's got big kind of curly hair, a lot of tattoos, and she loves art. That's what she likes to do here is paint and do stuff like that. She's working as a hostess and waitress and waitress at Friendly's on Memorial Drive in Chicopee.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So Friendly's, if you don't know, if you're not from the East Coast, is like a family sit down ice cream burger joint. Basically, it's a little diner kind of a not diner.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's what matters. That's mainly it. You can't just say, I'm going to cut that out for a month and then go back. Can't do it. That's not what it is. Bet you don't. So I'm glad it's helping you. That's great. And it really does. I like the psychology and biology-based approach here. Noom weight uses psychology.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, they're here. They're in New York. We have them. And like all the Friendly's ice cream they sell at the grocery store here and shit. Their strawberry shortcake bars are top notch. Delicious. Love them. So she's working there. I have friends that used to work at Friendly's and used to steal the giant things of ice cream.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Like the fucking 10 gallon ones. Yeah. And then we put them in the car and be like, nobody has a freezer that can fit this. So we'd have to eat as much ice cream as we all could possibly fucking throw out, throw out eight gallons of ice cream. We used to steal that shit. So she's very well known to her regular customers as being real social, real energetic. People would request her.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I want Amanda. Give me Amanda. Really? Yeah, she's the best. So that's how people are with her. Her mother said to know her is to love her. You would only have to meet her once, and you were forever her friend. She'd never forget you, nor would you forget her. Crazy curly hair, stunning green eyes, covered in tattoos, her beautiful artwork. That's what her mom says.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Now, her and Seth, like I said, it's a week-old relationship, and they are already enmeshed after a week. Hot and heavy. Hot and heavy to the point where he's already living in her apartment. I mean, they've known each other a week and he's already not only is he staying there every night, which would be like, you know, things are going well. He's moving his shit in there. His stuff is there.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Like he's got a stereo and shit.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Some people are like that. Some people like they. Yeah. Some people go for relationships and try to like be really enmeshed immediately. And like they're looking to be in love. So you get two people like that who are like love at first sight people.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And especially if you're artsy and kind of free spirited, you're not really usually they don't have the most practical thoughts as far as I barely met this guy. And you go with your feelings. And I think that's what's going on here. And he's like, he's just some construction guy. I was like, I'm fucking this hot art chick, dude. She's awesome. You know?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And they both smoke weed together, we'll talk about. Yeah, she's a cool-ass chick, man. She lives, and I guess he's sort of living, at 73 School Street in Chicopee in a third-story apartment. So that's where she lives. So August 25, 2011. It's been about a week of bliss here between Seth and Amanda. And they had a quiet night that night.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
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Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He got home from work and she did her thing and they were doing stuff. They smoked weed together that night as they do regularly. They're both daily weed smokers, it seems like. And he is also into art stuff. He's making jewelry while Amanda is painting that night. Really? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So there's a real kind of an arts and crafts, not to be confused with Sarah Boone's arts and craft night, which is way different. It's a very chill vibe, though. Very chill vibe. They're kicking it, smoking weed, making shit. Sounds fun. You order a pizza, I'll go there. That sounds good. Sure. I'm in.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So the next morning, this is the next day, August 26th, 2011, Seth leaves for work, I assume at the crack of dawn. Probably. Because he's a construction worker.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Or else he's goddamn late. Absolutely. So she works the evening shift at Friendly's that night. So she doesn't have to get up in the morning. So Seth said he called her in the afternoon of August 26 to say that he's going to be late and couldn't pick her up to get her to her job at Friendly's by five o'clock as he was supposed to. He said he could, but now he's got to stay late at work.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And so he's saying, I'm going to miss you by a little bit. I can't get you there by five. So tell her that a few hours ahead of time so she can get a ride, which is which is fine. But already he's like they're doing like daytime calls and I can't like. They're already together.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's fast. So he said he got off of work and then drove to Friendly's to see if she had gotten picked up or not. And if she hadn't gotten picked up yet, he was going to grab her. So he stopped by, but she wasn't there. So he's like, oh, okay, shit. Or drop her off, I meant. See if she got dropped off and say hello to her.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So he went to his grandmother's house for a little while, and then he went back to Amanda's apartment building, you know, because he sort of lives there. He's got a shit there. So he when he gets back there, he sees that the porch window is broken, which isn't good. That's what he says. He says, I get their porch windows broken.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So then he opens the door and he said, quote, As soon as I walked in, I saw some red in the kitchen. My first impression was I thought it was paint. She was painting that day, and that's kind of what I wanted it to be. Then I noticed it wasn't just paint around her. I kneeled next to her. Then he tried CPR but realized that she was dead. Amanda's on the floor, blood everywhere, and dead.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
and now he's got blood all over him now this is new and god damn it i'm just moved in oh baby so he dialed 9-1-1 and this is all his story of what he did he called 9-1-1 police arrive um one of the detectives said we met the boyfriend on the back porch he was in the fetal position that's not a you know that that's not saying cold-blooded right off the bat but also people act Who knows?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
You know what I mean? Sure, sure. You show up, I'm sure lots of people killed their whoever the fuck or, you know, oh, God, oh, no. I mean, what else would you be like? Yeah, I found her. I don't know. Fuck it. Hold on. I'm texting this chick. Hold on. Wait a minute. I got stuff going on here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So she said that he said there was no forced entry into her apartment and police believed her assailant may have known her. So they get in there. There is blood on the floor, on the cabin and on the counter. They find bloody shoe prints on the floor.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
now they're trying to determine they determine it's either a men's size seven and a half yeah a women's size nine and a half yeah or a youth size seven they have not decided yet that is the uh added bonus that i have with my baby feet that's you get to yeah you will fucking find me you'll be like oh yeah Look for some guy tripping over his own feet and shit. They're huge.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
One of the two. Or me at 12. So they find that she has been stabbed multiple times in her side and chest, and her throat was cut as well. This is a lot. I mean, she has just been hacked up and had her throat cut. It's overkill is what they and the detectives describe it that way, too.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
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Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
They describe it as very violent, overkill and possibly a crime of passion because this isn't like your normal robbery killing. You know, you usually kill someone as quick as you can, not really work them over with a knife.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So the bloody shoe prints, which had dried, the blood had dried on the shoe prints, which helps them determine a time of death because they can see who she was talking to and when. And after that, so they get the time of death down to between 410 and 5 p.m. So very specific. That is inside of an hour. Yeah, that's not bad. That's really good.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
A palm print is found on a broken window, on a window that was broken from the inside of the apartment.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Punched out. Punched out, which seems like that's to make it look like a robbery is what people would do.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Punch out. Nobody breaks into an apartment by punching a window out from the inside. Once you're in, you don't need to break windows. Just go out the door. So that's another thing that's something. And they say palm prints, by the way, are individual like fingerprints in case you don't know that. So if you find a palm print, that's something.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So she was beaten, stabbed, her throat was cut. This all seems like a lot for her, who doesn't really have any enemies or anything like that. She's very aggressive. She had scrapes and sharp force injuries to her face, neck, chest, and abdomen, including six stab wounds and two slashes to her neck from chin to collarbone.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
This is a lot. There's a lot of violence, man. A lot of violence. She was found in a large pool of blood in the kitchen here. Blood stains throughout the kitchen revealed that she'd been stabbed multiple times in the course of a violent struggle.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Smears of her hands on cabinets, and you can tell when there's a struggle. According to the medical examiner who performed the autopsy, she died of injuries to her heart and liver, soft tissue, and soft tissue due to stab wounds to her chest and abdomen.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And they said in the course of a violent struggle, items of evidence, including bodily fluids and blood, saliva, sweat, skin cells, are often transferred here. So they're looking for – this is 2011, so they want DNA and shit like that. Sure. They do fingernail scrapings and everything like that, and they do find DNA under her fingernails that does not belong to her.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So that's an interesting thing here. The medical examiner said she bled to death from a combination of stab and cutting wounds. He said the bleeding sent her into shock, and she would have been conscious minutes before going into shock and would have definitely felt the pain. It wasn't a thing where she was killed and didn't know it was happening.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
This was a struggle and she put up a fight and it was really bad. Now, Seth Green notices that his weed that he left on the coffee table as well as his knife are not there.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
My knife is missing that was on the table that probably caused all these wounds. And my weed is missing, which is what I noticed when my girlfriend's been slaughtered in front of me. Hey, where's my weed? Which I guess maybe at that point I'd really need some weed. So I might notice that. Fuck. Yeah. My pipe scraper.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said he told the police that those are the only items he could see that were missing were his weed and his knife. So, yeah, this is real weird stuff here. And the cops immediately do not trust Seth at all. No, they don't trust him. So they sit him down. They go, all right, chief, let's talk polygraph. They don't even tell this. The first thing they say is, well, let's do a polygraph.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And he says, fine. And he passes a polygraph test. And also his shoe. He has an adult foot and his shoe is not a seven and a half.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah. Or at least something there. So and also the palm print does not match him either. So he's cleared.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's it. That's what I mean. They were hoping they could wrap this up quick and set this full of shit. And his alibi was good, too. He was at work until past five.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Really bad shit. So they said the person she fought with left a large amount of DNA under her fingernails. A large amount? Large. I mean, she was fighting for her life. She was scratching. She was fucking clawing this guy.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Oh, yeah. They ran the DNA through the database. No matches.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So that sucks. Could be a child. Tiny. Or a woman. That's the other thing they're thinking. Yeah, right. There's no rape or anything like that. So they're thinking this could be it. She might have pissed a woman off. Who knows? Does Seth Green have an ex-girlfriend and stuff like that? There you go. You know, because that's what they're thinking.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
They said, no, she seemed to live, you know, in her one bedroom apartment. She didn't really, you know, have enemies. But they said that the investigator said the impression is that she definitely knew her assailant. And she probably this wasn't a random act. It doesn't look like that. Hey, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's the thing. You used to get a solid picture, and then you'd look through them, and you could enjoy them. Now they're, like, back on your camera roll. You can't even find them. You don't want that. That's why the cool thing you need to do, and what I did, and I think it's pretty cool, is create a Shutterfly photo book. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about one of our favorites, SimpliSafe. Oh, SimpliSafe.com. S-I-M-P-L-I-S-A-F-E.com. That's absolutely correct. And if you're anything like us, the most important thing for you is probably protecting your family from harm. Right.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I mean, nothing else matters if people are coming into your house and murdering your whole family and robbing your house. What's the difference? That's why us here at Small Town Murder, along with millions of other Americans, we trust SimpliSafe with our home security. It's great.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Both our studios, our homes, everything that we have is protected with SimpliSafe because it is the best security you're going to get. You can install it incredibly. incredibly easy on your own. Even I can do it. I can't put IKEA furniture together. It's so good. I'm telling you, start the year out with greater peace of mind.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Visit simplisafe.com slash small to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com slash small. S-I-M-P-L-I safe.com slash small. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Now back to the show. Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about our stylish friends at Quince. That's right.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Let's go elevate your styles, people. Get it going. Look good out there. And you can do it now without breaking your wallet, without breaking the bank. Because at Quince, you can get high-end, versatile pieces at prices we can all actually afford, which is very nice. You want to get good stuff that lasts and it's good. And they have quality stuff that's very affordable.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
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Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Jimmy's got his linen pants he's rocking.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
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Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
They said we're not locked into that, but it's the initial police theory that we're working on here. They said that there are a number of people that they've encountered while doing interviews with their friends who have information. And there are more who we know have information. We're trying to determine who we should have the most interest in. They're just trying to figure out what to do.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, I don't really want to listen to fucking bluegrass music that much, but it's fine if she can play it. That's cool. That's cool shit.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
You know, shit who's under the age of 60 and doesn't live in Iowa. Apparently in Iowa, they love that shit. So she was also good at tie dye and she would decorate shirts and blankets all the time. Her last Facebook post, she joked about sunflower power. That's the type of chick she is. You know what I mean? She's she's pretty cool and nice.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today, all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station. Here we go. We got some crazy stuff for you today, as usual, but it's extra crazy, if that's possible. I don't know. It's wild stuff.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And her boss at Friendly's said that she's literally loved by everyone. I was absolutely shocked about what happened. And by the way, they're making a plaque to hang in Friendly's of her.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's really depressing as you eat your sundae. As I eat my fucking banana split. That's very depressing.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
No shit. This is really depressing. So they took examination grade, as they call it, photos of the foot impressions of the bloody footprints and made impressions to do comparisons. And they called all the first responders back. Anyone who had entered the house photographed the bottom of their shoes. And anybody have tiny girl feet? Any of you guys? No. OK. God damn it.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, they also did footwear impressions. That's one of the things that excluded Seth Green was he was wearing leather work boots that were not seven and a half. So he's out. The next step would be they found out the shoes are Nike's. So they contacted Nike. to try to get help from them to determine what this was. They determined it's an Air Max shoe.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And we'll talk about either a nine-and-a-half woman's or a seven-and-a-half man. That's what they decide. Enter Mercedes Benz. No shit. That's this woman's name spelled exactly like the car. B-E-N-Z. Mercedes Benz, one of Amanda's friends. Oh, boy. She's 25. She worked at Friendly's with Amanda and was her friend.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
She said that Amanda was loving and caring and would give you the shirt off your back. Now she said she was texting back and forth with Amanda all day. She said at 4.20 p.m., so we can move that time of death up from between 4.20 to 5 instead of 4.10, Mercedes got a text message from Amanda that Amanda needed a ride to work.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So Mercedes said that she called Amanda just before five when she was about to pick her up. But Amanda didn't answer the text or her phone call. She said, I she said, quote, I sat outside about five minutes before I left. And she said she wasn't concerned, though, because she figured because Mercedes was late to get there. So she figured she must have just got another ride.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And now she's starting her shift and can't look at her phone.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Oh, my God. Inside bleeding out on her floor.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Ben's texted her and said, I asked her if she was mad at me because I was picking her up for work late. So she thought she was mad.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And they're like, hey, Mercedes, what size are your feet?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
What shoes are you wearing? We got some big feet on you or not. But it turns out she doesn't fit this either. She doesn't fit the palm print, anything. So, yeah, we're back to this now. Now, I was going to say, were they fighting over tables at Friendly's? She's not pooling her tips. What's going on? What's the problem? So October of – time goes by now. Yeah. We're up to October now.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
It always is for Express. We will get into that. First of all, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Tickets for live shows are available. The slate for 2025 is set. There is one show we've yet to announce, which will make sense why we delayed in announcing it when it comes out. Yeah, it'll be in a couple weeks here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And in October 2011, about a month and a half goes by, and there's a guy who says he was at a party in Chicopee when a man named Gio confessed to killing Amanda. Okay. He goes to the police and says that. Now, police speak with a number of people who have been at the party and found nobody else heard any conversation like that at all.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So this guy was saying it was like a conversation in the middle of the party. Like, yeah, I killed that chick with a group of people. No one else said it happened. So then this guy, Coggins is his last name, who went to the police. He was charged with misleading the police.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And he pleaded guilty and served a sentence of 208 days in jail for it.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He lied for real for no reason. No reason. No benefit. I don't know if he wants. I don't understand it. So, yeah, I guess Coggins is a weed guy. He's a weed dealer. That's what he does. And this one guy said he talked with Coggins about doing work for him. He said Coggins, who was never paid, gave him some information, but it never led to the arrest or conviction of anyone.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So he said he no longer talked to Coggins after he was arrested for misleading police. So after that, they have nothing. They have DNA, palm print, you know, liar, liars. They got all sorts of shit. But they what they don't have is a viable murder suspect is the problem.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So weeks go by. Months start to go by. Okay. The next thing that happens is November of 2012. So more than a year has gone by. Okay. Now, at this point, this is when a detective hears a guy named Corey Lose, L-O-S. He comes to a detective and says, Ryan Coggins, remember the guy who misled the police? Yeah, the little liar. He's in jail at this point. Not for that, for something else.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He's in jail with this Corey Lowe's guy. And Corey Lowe's said came to the cops and said this Coggins guy said he killed Amanda Plass. He told me he said that they were in the same pod at the jail from November 1st through November 3rd. He said on November 3rd, Coggins told him that he killed Amanda Plass. So that's what they said.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Now, as a result of the report by this guy, this Lowe's guy about Coggins confessing, Coggins was transferred to another pod and all of that. Now, later on, though, he's going to end up kind of dismissing himself of that story, saying that really didn't happen. He won't testify to it. He'll take the fifth one asked about it. So. All right. Now, mom is pissed. Yeah. As you might imagine here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
This is Amanda's mom is upset. She is doing everything she can to find the murderer. She sponsored road races and posted flyers in hopes of someone coming forward with some kind of evidence. Yeah. She started. And she's also calling the detectives every day. What do you got? What are you doing? What are you doing today? What are you doing today, guys?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
You're not letting this go, guys. You're going to fucking find this person. So the detectives had to keep pouring through the evidence. Not saying they wouldn't have anyway, but you got some lady's mom calling you every goddamn day. You better keep looking at that fucking file.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I think January 14th we're releasing that, but Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, February 7th, you are up first. We are at the, not in Munhall, we're in Oakland this time at the Carnegie Music Hall. So head over there. Columbus the next night. Let's Fill that bad boy up and start this year off right, Pittsburgh. Can't wait to do that. So shutupandgivememurder.com is where you get all those.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So they decide that they look through the photos and look through everything and look in all the photos of every single room and really concentrate on them. Every detail. Every detail. Maybe something got overlooked. So it's at this point where I don't know how this didn't get noticed fucking 14 months earlier.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
In a picture written on a whiteboard. She has a whiteboard that she writes shit. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
vertically down the side is written dennis was here 8 11 11 so august 11th 2011 which is 15 days before the murder okay so they're like okay who the fuck is dennis and how did we not see this number one right because we've they've exhausted everything every person that's been in that apartment they've checked all their palm prints dna shoes nothing works it's
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
They're at the point where they're like, Dennis is written on a whiteboard. That's fine. Who knows?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
We don't know. We've never interviewed a Dennis, so we don't know what's going on here. So they're like, if Dennis was here, we should interview him. Anyone who was in that apartment, they interviewed. And he was there a week before she started dating this guy. Exactly. That, too. Uh-huh.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So detectives dig through Amanda's phone records and social media messages and ask friends and family everything. Who's Dennis?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Nobody knows. Nobody knows Dennis. Nobody's ever heard of Dennis fucking Dennis. So then they did a record search for anyone named Dennis who lived within like six blocks of her. Does anyone around there, is there any Dennis's around there? They found two possibilities of Dennis's, Den-I, Dennis-I, and two Den-I. And they cross-referenced the numbers with the ones on her cell phone records. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Does she know any of these people? So then they find out more on that in a second. They find out that her apartment had previously been broken into as well. Oh, but it wasn't reported to the police. That's the thing. Witnesses told police that Amanda thought she knew who had broken in.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And in September 2011, this was right after the murder, one witness, who's a former boyfriend of hers, not Seth Green, he told investigators that Amanda thought a small Puerto Rican man who lived within a short walk and whose name he thought began with a D had broken in.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
OK. He also said he had seen the man walking around the neighborhood and would recognize him when interviewed again in 2012. In April of 2012, the ex-boyfriend said a few days after the break, the break in this guy that he had, the boyfriend had stayed at Amanda's place and they were hanging out together. And he said that she called the guy who she thought had broken into her place.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
She got his phone number and called him. She had his phone number because she had hung out with him one time, and we'll find out why. Amanda had called them, and this is what the guy said. Amanda had called them, and I woke up. She said he was coming over to talk about it. I was there when the guy came over. It was about five or ten minutes later after she called. The guy was Spanish.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He was probably between 21 and 23 years old. He had short hair. He had a little facial hair that was trimmed. He was normal thin. Normal thing. He spoke good English. When he came over, he was with his girlfriend or wife and their kid. They walked there. They said they'd been walking and I didn't see a car pull up. She was more heavyset and she was Spanish, meaning the girlfriend or wife.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Check out the fun places we're coming this year. And then after that, if you've seen live shows, you've listened to this show, you should listen to Crime and Sports and Your Stupid Opinions, our other two shows as well. You want more? You want more? We got more for you. Patreon.com slash crime in sports, just like the other show we do.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
The kid was maybe three or four, a boy. The man told Amanda it was not him. She said a neighbor who lived on the third floor had seen him on the porch and that he had told neighbors that he was waiting for her. Meaning the guy, the short Puerto Rican guy. So he was upset that she had called him without even asking. They stayed for only about five minutes.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
She told him that if he had the bowl, she wanted it back. You're saying someone broke in and stole her weed pipe. Stole my pipe.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's a big deal, dude. I have a bowl. I've had... Only a few bowls that I use all the time. They're years you keep them for. You clean them. I mean, you get a bowl that works nice and hits right, that's your bowl, man. Don't fuck with my shit. It just doesn't feel right otherwise. It's just not the same. That's so funny.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said, I know that she had the phone number on her dry erase boards, one of those white boards with a wood frame around it. Okay. So his D, small, possibly small shoes, small feet. Sure. So investigators attempt to identify a small, thin Hispanic male who had a confrontation with her. And so that's what they're doing. They come up with two Dennis's. Two deny.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Number one is a guy named Dennis who lives in the vicinity of her apartment here. The first he had previously resided at. He doesn't live there anymore, but he had lived around there. He had an extensive board of probation record, including a number of violent crimes. OK, now the woman he was living with at the time appeared to be a heavyset white female, not a Hispanic woman like the other one.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So they don't know if that's the same or people break up and get back. Who knows? So anyway, investigators obtained her cell phone records and the tell his telephone number does not appear in any of their records. They really like this guy for a second, though. Then they run into Dennis number two. This is Dennis Rosa Roman with a dash Rosa dash Roman. OK, Roman, Roman, whatever.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He's born in 1991. Young guy. He has a police record of breaking and entering a number of those drug distribution and was convicted of domestic violence on his fiance as well. He's so young. He's a real full house of asshole, this guy. He's got it all. Three kings and two domestic violences. He's doing great. That's a full house, right?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So the background search on him revealed he had all these crimes, but there's no palm print on file for him because they only take palm prints during a major crime. They didn't consider any of these a major crime to take a palm print. Otherwise, it's just fingerprints. So he had previously resided at 53 Cabot Street, number 2R, which is about four blocks from the home of Amanda. That's very close.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He resided with a heavyset Hispanic female.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Things are starting to line up here. They had a four-year-old son. Mm-hmm. This is all lining up. So they reported that on March 9, 2011, and on March 17, 2012, listed as the home telephone. They got his phone number here. His number does appear in her cell phone records. Uh-oh. Yeah. According to the records, there was a total of nine calls between Amanda's phone and his phone.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That will get you all the bonus material you could possibly ask for. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get hundreds of bonus episodes immediately upon subscription that you've never heard before. And then you get new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you get it. Every last drop of it.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Four of the nine were outgoing calls from Amanda's phone. Five were him calling her.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
She wants her fucking bowl back. Don't take my shit. The duration of the calls varied from a few seconds to 89 seconds, but they all occurred on July 28th, 2011. And the last call was at 1126 a.m. that time. So, OK, we know that. Wow. So that's what we know. Now, October 29th, 2013 is when they talked to Dennis. So it's been two fucking years.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So, um, now they talked to him. I'm sorry. They talked to, uh, based on, and like we said, this is based on, um, the ex-boyfriend. They bring the ex-boyfriend in to say, this is, we have this guy. Is this the guy you saw? Yeah. Is this your dentist? Yeah. Before they say, we know you were over there because the boyfriend said so. They want to make sure.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Now, she she he said that day that Amanda had awoken him and said that she called the person he was on his way over. So could you wake up and be over here when the dentist arrived? Amanda was on the back porch. And it was 15 minutes later. This guy said that they showed him a photo array containing 10 pictures, including Dennis. And he said none of the pictures rung a bell.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
However, he wrote also, I didn't see any features I could remember. I know it definitely wasn't number six because I know that guy. So it's definitely not. It's definitely not Frank, but it's not any of the other nine either.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
There might be a Dennis. You never know. So they find Dennis here on the 29th. They call him and he said he was busy. So they go find him on the street. And he says, I'm busy. And they go, well, you're free to go. And he wanted to walk away, but the officers just walked with him. They go, you're free to go. And he goes, okay, turns away. And then they walk with him.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Well, we're free to walk with you. So one guy, I mean, yeah, we'll just we'll follow you, but you can go there. Trooper Gibbons here walked and talked with Rosa, with Dennis, while the other three officers followed. He asked what they wanted to talk about. And the trooper said that we want to go to the police station to talk with you. And he said, I don't want to go to the police station.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
We threw this. He lit a cigarette, appeared very nervous. He asked what it was all about. They said, well, we don't want to talk about it on the street. We'd rather do it in the police station here. And he said that if I know what it's all about, I'll meet with you in a few days. If you tell me when I'm not busy. So the trooper asked him if he knew a girl from Chicopee named Amanda.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
This week, what we're going to do for crime and sports, back by popular demand because it's so much fun. Personal ads. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said, I know a lot of girls from Chicopee and a few of them are named Amanda. Really?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
How many Amandas do you know from one town in central Massachusetts? None.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I don't know any. Giant city. Yeah. He asked, did something happen to this girl? Because I don't ever go to Chicopee anymore. And the trooper said it was Amanda who had tattoos on her chest. Do you know that one? Tattoos, lots of tattoos. And he said, oh, yeah, I know her. They said, when were you last in Chicopee? He said it was a long time, a couple of years.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
When asked if he had a girlfriend in Chicopee, he said yes, you know, all of that. He asked, can I go now? But the trooper asked him for a telephone number saying, because he said you would call, so, you know, just in case we get mixed up here. He finished smoking his cigarette and threw it out on the pavement. Oh, my dummy. Yep.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
A female with a child came out of a building, and he said he had to leave because this is his girlfriend and kid. So they left. Trooper said, great, and picked up his fucking cigarette, obviously, and put that in the goddamn bag for later. We'll have that. Some DNA on that. So there's there. Later that day, Dennis and his girlfriend went to the home of a friend of theirs named Melissa Hoy.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Find out how people navigated love before the internet. How they could... Bizarre. You could walk up to someone and say hello, or you could put an ad in the newspaper and then wait by your mailbox for responses. So there's that. Then for small-town murder, West Memphis 3, we're going to talk about that. We're going to very specifically talk about how did this happen?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Now, Melissa Hoy is not a confidant that you should be telling things to because I know this because she went and told the police all this shit. Yeah. This guy, yeah, Dennis told Melissa Hoy about his encounter with police. So Melissa Hoy asked him whether the investigation concerned the victim, Amanda, and he said, oh, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So then Hoy showed him a picture of Amanda from the Internet and said, was it about this chick? Oh, it was on her phone, not even on the Internet. So it was off her phone. And she said that he got really quiet and put his head down. Oh. He admitted that he knew her and sold her weed occasionally. OK, that night, Dennis returned to Hoy's home and apologized for lying to Hoy and his girlfriend.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said that he told them that he had gone to the victim's house to deliver weed that night, actually, of the murder. But he said he didn't kill anybody or see any death. He said he heard voices outside from the inside. He heard voices and he said an unknown white male opened the victim's door, grabbed the bag of weed out of his hand and told him to get the fuck out of here and not come back.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Now, when you're delivering weed, you don't have it in your hand like a pizza, by the way. It's in your pocket until you get in there. And not in 2011. Yeah. Jesus. So November 1st, he calls Gibbons and says that, I got to talk to you. I need to talk to you right now. Dennis calls the cops, okay? He said that, yeah, I got to get down there.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said that it's been bothering him for two years since it happened. He said, I have to tell you something about that girl Amanda. It's been bothering me. The trooper asked if he would come to my office in Springfield. Dennis said no. He said, OK, well, meet me in front of the Westfield police station. So they do. They go over there. They're inside. They go. He agrees to meet with him there.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So they bring him in an interview room. He's advised of his rights, waves those, everything like that. He tells officers here that he had met her once two weeks before the murder. He said on the day of the murder, Amanda called him to ask for weed. Wanted to buy some weed. When he approached the back door, he could hear a male voice arguing with Amanda.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And he knocked on the door and an unknown male answered and took the weed from him. And that was that. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a very cool place, Thrive Market. Yes, we are both looking to get into the healthy swing this year.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
The problem is I don't know what's in everything, and I don't know if even I'm qualified to even read the labels to know if that's good or that's bad. There's chemicals and things, and there's things floating around. I don't know what I'm doing out there. One of my favorite features, I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. Yeah, it's simple.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
You scan any item and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding these safe, healthy foods. For example, like I'm trying to get my protein intake up. Yeah. for energy. I'm always moving around. I need stuff. And I love that you can filter their site by the high protein options.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
It's very cool. And you can personalize this portion and you can put filters on it and get ready. You should be ready for a junk free start to 2025. Get ready for it and head to thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash smalltownmurder, thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
How did they get to the point where they said, those are our guys? How did we get there?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you all sorts of good stuff about Chime. That's what I'm talking about. There's so many extra fees you have to pay in life. Everything. You go to the airline, there's an extra ticket on that. There's extra fees.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Fees, hotels, fees, all this type of stuff. We're trying to make progress. And the next thing you know, here comes another fee coming at you. And it's more money than you expected, and your whole math is thrown off, and it's awful. Learn more at Chime.com slash Small Town Murder. Chime is great with that stuff.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I mean, you can't beat if things are a little tight, especially around the holidays or after the holidays. You need that money a couple days early. You go grocery shopping. You got a car payment due. There's so many things that don't. Exactly how you want them to cross over. and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Without really any evidence whatsoever. Well, let us know. We'll talk all about it. There's still people that think they did it, too, by the way. Unbelievable.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And now back to the show. This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January, it's a whole new slate. Clean. You bet. It is blank pages all the way around. Absolutely. And maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here. A little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
that are like those kids should fry it's wild look go to reddit it's insane so we'll check all that out and more uh patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well the regular show so get into that that said i think it's time everybody let's all sit back what do you say collectively and let's all take a deep breath arms to the sky let's all shout
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Fade away by February, right after New Year's. Think of therapy as an editorial partner. There you go. That's a good way to put it. Helping you write new chapters and creating the story of your life that you should have, that you want to have. That's what it's all about. The one you deserve. The one you deserve. And we can't say enough about therapy.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
We all have problems, and we all have issues, and none of us are above. None of us have the right answer all the time.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash SmallTownMurder.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said he feared for his life because this unknown male and another guy had been following him in different cars. So he goes, now they're after me. So he said, I need protection from you guys. I need police protection.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
fascinating story he said I've never been inside her apartment that's what he says now never been in which we know isn't true he said I've never been inside her apartment well I guess they talked on the back porch when he came over one time so yeah he said that never at all he'd never been inside and that he identified a friend who was with him on the day that he got into the apartment he said that he'd been hanging out with his friend and the friend waited in the front of the home while he went around the back and the two left together on foot after they swiped the weed out of his hand
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So the cop said, hey, can we maybe get some DNA from you? And he said, yeah, sure. And then he said, didn't you guys already take a cigarette off me anyways? He fucking knew. Oh, he saw it. He knew. He said, I know you're investigating me no matter what. And anyway, he signs a statement, gives DNA. That's November 1st. November 5th.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Okay, they approach him at his home and request another interview. They want to do some follow-up shit. He said he's willing to speak, but he's currently babysitting his girlfriend's baby, so he can't go now.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Not even his kid. So they said, well, what if you come down to the station with the kid and we'll have an officer watch the kid at the station? Yeah, we got blocks and shit. We got plenty of shit. Yeah, there's those little molestation rooms we bring them in to talk about shit. They can play with the dolls that the kids point to for trouble. They can play with the bad spot dolls.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
They don't know what they're for. The kid's four. He doesn't know that it's a molestation doll. He has no idea.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, you know, it's fine. So they do that. He says, okay. At the start of the interview, he was friendly, laughing, and then he was expressing concern that his girlfriend may be angry if she found out that he had brought her child to the police station. So he said, I really want to help you guys, though. He said, this is terrible. You guys need help. I got to help you guys out.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
You know what I'm saying? You need people to help. I can understand that. I'm one of those people. He said, you got questions for me, man. Let's go. Like, let's do it.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Then he said, I got to get out of here before my girlfriend gets out of work. She's going to be mad at me. He said, I just have to hurry up. My girl's going to be out soon. You know, shit like that. My girl is getting out soon. I have the keys. I have her house keys and her phone. You know, I'm trying to wrap this up. She's going to be pissed.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said that, yes, Amanda bought marijuana from him on multiple occasions and on one occasion. They spoke on the back porch. He showed the defendant a picture of a dry erase board with the phrase Dennis was here written on it.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He previously denied being inside the apartment, but he admitted that, yes, he did step inside just to sign the dry erase board. But he wrote it. Yeah. Dennis was here. He wrote it. He said, I wrote it.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We're going to Massachusetts. Here we go, Massachusetts. This is Chicopee, Massachusetts.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said that the board was located by the back door and that her bedroom did not look the way it was pictured in the photograph at the time. And they said, well, how do you know this room didn't look like this? And he said, all I seen was a bed in her room. That's about it. So they said, did you ever smoke weed with him inside with her inside the apartment?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And he said, yeah, I lit a bowl once in the kitchen, placed the lighter on the counter and sat down on the couch. And then he said, well, I have been inside her house, but like, I just don't want people to look at me like I'm a fucking murderer. You know, so I lied to police about it because that makes you look like less of a murder. I don't tell you everything.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He then said, I seen that shit go down. I heard that shit and I'm scared. So now he's saying I was there.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, they said, well, you know, we've done a lot of processing on the scene. And, you know, he said, well, my fingerprints might be on a glass cup on the table, on a doorknob maybe. And he said, what did you guys find? I want to know. I bet you do. I bet you do.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's called discovery, and your lawyer will find that out after you're charged.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So he the cop said that they found, quote, some things underneath the victim's fingernails and asked if he had ever had a fight with Amanda or a scuffle. And he said, no, of course not. And they said, OK, well, we're trying to find the friend that you said that was with you on the day of the murder that you said.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
But we looked him up and he was in jail that day, like the whole day, like woke up in jail, went to bed in jail. And then a few more days. He said, that's impossible. They were like, no, no, it's right here on the paper. He was in there.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He's definitely there. Yeah, he was there. We know when people are in jail.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So, yeah, he said that. Look, I went there. I gave her weed through the window at different times. She asked me about the theft in her house, which I didn't do. He said I did write. Dennis was here. We smoked weed together after they showed him pictures of the crime scene. He became upset and he said, you guys trying to do what? What's up? I don't have no time here. I got to go.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I got to get out of here. This is crazy. You guys are fucking with me. And he wanted to leave, and they said, well, we're investigating still. And he said, all right, but this, like, I want to know, like, this ain't cool, he said. This ain't cool.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, this is bad. So, oh, my God. So he's like, yeah, this is fucked up. And he said, I got to go. And they said, well, you know, why do you think she might have been killed? And he said, I don't know. Maybe she owed some money or stole drugs from someone. And maybe a fucking dealer got mad at her or something. They were like, okay.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Then they were asking him about the day of she called me to get weed. And they said, well, there's no telephone records of that.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And he said, I smoke so much weed. I don't remember a lot of things. And maybe I got my days mixed up. That's what he said.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah. So then they go to him and they go, well, you know what you probably can see and what we can easily remember is these are DNA results. Yeah. See those? They say that they're under, your shit's under her fingernails. How do you explain that? Yeah. And he said, okay, yeah, check it out. All right, fine. This is what happened. I tried to save her from the killer. That's what happened.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Old Chicopee. It's a nice place. Chicopee, Mass is in south central Massachusetts. It's kind of like mid-Massachusetts, we'll call it. It's about an hour and a half to Boston and about three hours to New York City, the other direction. And it sits in the middle there. And it is 15 minutes, actually, to Agawam, which was our last Massachusetts episode, which was the music box murder.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
They said, well, who was the killer? And he said, I can't tell you that. I'm too scared.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said, I know the motherfucker, all right? This is exact quotes. The sergeant said, you know what? And he said, I know the motherfucking murderer. I tried to save her life. And they go, what did you do? And he said, I know the fucking murderer. And they said, what did you do to try to save her life? And he said, I tried to grab her and the guy fucking tossed me down the stairs. Look at me.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I'm a little guy. I'm a little guy. Look at my shoes. They're tiny. They said, so why don't you tell me the whole story? Tell me everything that happened. And he said, I can't. He's going to fucking kill me. And they said, well, why don't you tell me everything that happened? And he said again, he's going to fucking kill me. What the fuck do I do?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And they said, well, why don't you tell us everything that happened?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And he said, I know the fucking murderer. That's all I know. I can't give you any more. So we're like, okay. He tried to explain. He said, I tried to grab her. The guy fucking tossed me down the stairs. Then he said, I want a lawyer. I want to go home. I want to get out of here. I want a lawyer. That's it. And he got up and tried to leave. And they said, well, you're under arrest, asshole.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Your DNA is under somebody's shit. He tried to resist being arrested.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Obviously, with all of this and the he repeatedly interrupted the booking process to tell police that they arrested the wrong person. And now you're putting this family in danger.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, that is fucking wild. He also he said that he's sorry he apologized for not. He said the victim grabbed me and I'm sorry I didn't try to save her harder while they're driving to jail. The transporting officer, Dr. David Gagnon. What is it with cops named Gagnon Gagnon? I don't get it.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Testified there was no conversation during the transport except when Dennis asked if they could stop at his girlfriend's house to tell her that he loved her. No, we can't do that. Sure thing. He's a real romantic, this fucking guy. That's one thing.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I really want to get a sundae. They're really good. Butterscotch, please.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Fuck, man. So he is printed, and they do the major crime prints this time, informed of Miranda Wright's. And again, he says at this police station, I went there to smoke. I went there to hang out with her that day. We smoked weed. I was there for about two hours. She told him to come back later to smoke more. He said, I lied about my friend. I wasn't with my friend.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
But I just wanted to say I was with my friend because I hated him and I wanted to get him into trouble. Oh, yeah. Okay. He's got so many stories. He said as he approached the apartment, he could hear the victim screaming, stop, stop, stop, stop. This isn't right. Stop, stop. He said he heard the sound of glass breaking.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He pushed in the door and entered the house and found the assailant and the victim in the kitchen. He said the assailant was on top of the victim. He said he tried to separate them when the assailant pushed him back and brandished a knife. He then said that the victim grabbed him when he tried to help her off the floor.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said he fought with the assailant and eventually was punched in the jaw before or repeatedly before fleeing out the door. I'm just a little guy. He said, I feared for the safety of my family. That's why I lied. And they said, they said, please identify this other person. And he said, I can't say nothing. I really can't. I hold to my word. I can't say nothing.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That was crazy shit. I remember that. But this is basically Springfield in the middle. Chicopee is on the south side of Springfield, and Agawam is the north side of Springfield. How about that? It's just on the other side of Springfield, basically. Not on purpose, just the way it worked out.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And they said, hold your word to who? And they said, you're going to jail. Who are you holding words for? And he said, I know I'm going to jail, so I'm not saying no more. I'm so I'm sorry you have to charge me with this shit. I'm done. You can try this shit, but I'm done. So, yeah, he said, you know, he said after the murder, he looked down and said, wow, how do I get myself out of this?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So he wants his statements tossed, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah. I want all that shit gone.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He said officers lied and used trickery to obtain subsequent statements. Now, he said that it's all bullshit. They showed me gruesome pictures. It was very upsetting and I wanted to stop the interview. I told them I wanted to go home, but they would not let me. That's what he said. So the cops here or the judge here says that, no, you at one point he said, I don't know what's going on.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
You guys are trying to pin this on me. You guys trying to what? What's up? Because I don't have no time here. I got to go. What's up? So he said that was an invocation of his rights. Oh, I got to go. What's up? Which is not, you have to say specific fucking things here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So basically what they rule is that everything he said is fine and it's all in, except that when he is brought out of the room and in the booking process, he said some shit. All of that is tossed out. That's after the, you know, he pulled his rights and everything like that. But yeah, the rest of the conversations on the way to jail and everything else.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And when he got to jail and started saying more shit, he was re Morandi. So the shit that in the room counts, the shit outside the room doesn't. And then when they get back in another room, that counts too.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So the trial comes up here. The jury is taken to both Amanda's and his apartment to see the crime scenes. They really want to take them just to walk them from one to the other to show how close they are just to show he had an opportunity here. Um, the, the low sky was on the defense witness lists cause he's the guy who said that Coggins guy admitted to it.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
But before the trial began, he was brought into court and he chose to take his fifth amendment right to not testify. Okay. And that was that for that, for that guy there. Now in opening openings here, the, the prosecutor tells the jurors that they're going to hear from Amanda's friends. They're going to hear from Mercedes Benz.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Population here, 55,636, so a little more than we usually do, but it's definitely a small town in the feel and how everything works here. Median household income here, less than the national average, actually, which is odd. Really? Yeah, there's some towns in Massachusetts that are not affluent at all. Remember when we drove to the dispensary there?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Very exciting. Yeah. They you know who to put the time of death in there. They said little did Mercedes Benz know that Amanda Plass was lying in her kitchen on the floor stabbed to death while she was texting her. She said you'll see pictures of the crime scene showing the struggle that occurred in the kitchen and how she was stabbed all over the kitchen. All this shit. Fucked up.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
The defense said, this is insane. They said, it's not my guy. It's another guy, a drug dealer who's the killer. My guy doesn't want to identify him because he doesn't think the police can protect him, but he did not do it. He knows the guy who did, though. That's what he said. He said he could have told, but he did not give up this guy's name because he's a man of honor.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's what it is. So all the defense keeps bringing up is this Coggins guy. Well, he said he did it. Well, he said he did it. Well, he said he did it. By the way, they found out that the guy who said that Coggins said he did it and him never actually shared a pod at all. What the fuck? They were never together in jail. The guy made it up right out, pulled it directly from his asshole.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Stop it. So that's I mean, they bring the DNA evidence. Dennis doesn't testify. It's not much of a trial. No DNA evidence footprint. His foot matches, by the way. It's a seven and a half. It's ridiculous. So the whole thing is fucking crazy. During closing arguments, they say that she was killed as a part of a robbery in which he took marijuana, her cell phone and her boyfriend's knife.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's all. It's pretty cut and dry here. They said, quote, there was no other guy, just the defendant. And the defense lawyer said everything she said, but the opposite.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And then he sat down. So the jury goes out for five hours of deliberation, which really seems like a lot. In this case.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, his DNA, his footprint, everything's there. He's the guy who fucking did it. Yeah, he for sure did it. The DNA under the fingernails, I'm like, well, there you go. Goodbye, asshole.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Footprint in her blood and a palm print on the broken window, and you're going to say that you were trying to keep a person from killing her? That's not believable. It's impossible. Guess what? If I, no matter how afraid I am of somebody, if I'm on the fucking stand saying I'm the murderer, I'm giving that asshole up. We're not in the mafia here. You know what I mean? We're just, this is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's the point. There's no, where's his DNA? Where's his footprints in the blood? He floated above the mix. Yeah. Well, you know, he, he levitated. Drug dealer. Everybody, watch out. Jesus killed her. Watch out. He floats. He moves around. So he is found guilty of first-degree murder, which is in the commission of a robbery and everything else. Not good. Not good.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
During sentencing, her mom testifies and says, that is Amanda's mom, said that she would stop and give you her jacket if she saw you in the cold. Wouldn't hesitate to hand over money for food if you were standing on the corner. It didn't faze her to pick out all the red gummy bears for a child Sunday while working a shift at Friendly's. The kid who didn't like the red ones, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
She said that life is taken too soon. The loss is felt every day, whether it's a song, a sight, or a thought, something that is lived with every day. So obviously this is very hard on the family and everything like that. So the judge says, calls it an unspeakable horror. Agreed.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
We drove through those weird trailer, not even parks, just those trailer sections of the road. They were like, it was bad stuff.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That brought unbearable pain and unthinkable grief and says to the family, to her family, you all have my utmost respect for your strength and courage. what the court can do for you, can't bring your daughter back, but I can bring justice to this case. And he might as well have said, and this asshole in front of me, you, sir, may fuck off life without parole, former man Dennis here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
There you go. So now shit gets real weird, by the way. How? Okay, this is a total side story to this trial that didn't come out for a while. 2013, two years after the murder, it is revealed that two Chicopee police officers who had been assigned to guard the door until detectives arrived took photographs with their personal cell phones.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
The pictures were shared with other police officers and with coaches at a youth football game.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Hey, your kid's really coming along at linebacker. Want to see a chick carved up?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Want to see a 20-year-old?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Oh, I got it. Sergeant Keith LeMay and Officer Terry Deck each snapped photographs of the bloody scene on the third floor apartment with their cell phones. The shit deck passed the photograph on to nine fellow officers. LeMay later showed a photograph while taking while explaining the importance of not contaminating the crime scene, then sent the photo to him at his request.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He then this other guy passed it on to another cop who later showed it to parents at a youth sporting event.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
About two months later, the district attorney learned of the photo sharing and told the mayor. Said the mayor was deeply troubled by the allegations.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So the police chief, who was then deputy chief in charge of internal affairs, conducted an investigation. Goddard was charged with incompetence and then incompetence. The guy in charge.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
The officers were reprimanded and had to work some shifts without being paid. Okay. Now, he did the prosecutor, the district court judge, concluded they could not be prosecuted. Then the family sues the city and the police department and everybody else for unauthorized distribution of these fucking things.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Defunct industrial towns. They used to have factories and make shit. Now they don't. Now they are what they are.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
They said it was intentional, reckless, extreme, and outrageous, and the suit is settled for $100,000. Okay. Then Sergeant Jeffrey Goodare gets fired. You cost us $100,000.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, adjudicated a fucking moron.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Now, in 2017, On the Case with Paula Zahn does a story on here. Sensational, yeah. Yeah. February 2020, he gets his job back. Jeffrey Goodell gets his fucking job back. Yes. He went to a commission, a civil service commission, ruled that he would be demoted to patrolman because of his conduct.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
This was the second time in his career as a police officer that he won an appeal with the Civil Service Commission. In 2016, the commission ruled in his favor after he was demoted to patrolman for untruthfulness in a burglary case. Fire this asshole. Fire this fucking asshole. Why does he keep his job? What the fuck? Where there's smoke, there's fire. He's a bad cop. Fuck that guy. You suck.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So median household income here, $56,509, which is well below the national average.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Fuck you, dude. Fuck you, Jeffrey Bader. Please, I won't drive through your town so you can't pull me over. Ever. No. Lick my ass, you fucking jerk off.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
In my opinion, you're a terrible fucking cop. Awful. You're an adjudicated moron. Moron. Idiot. Jesus.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's fucked up. I hope not. So the family wants a new law. And this has been going on since 2014 of we want a law that says that you can't do this, basically.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
It should be illegal. Yeah. Amanda's sister said we need to actually tell people they can't do this and need to make sure there's a consequence because those officers really didn't receive a consequence.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And they didn't. So that's the problem. By the way, Dennis appeals saying that the police officers violated his Miranda rights throughout the booking procedure and all that kind of shit. They say, no, get the fuck out of here. Eat dicks, jerk off. So One Deadly Mistake is another show that airs an episode on this in 2022, I believe. The 2021 called Hidden in Plain Sight.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And then median home price, Massachusetts is a pretty expensive place. That's also low, actually. $272,100, which is much lower than the national average.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Then 2022, the law is passed here. It is called Amanda's Law. That's nice. It's against the law in Massachusetts for first responders to take unauthorized photographs of crime scenes now. Wow. Yeah, that's pretty interesting. They said, you know, one of the people said it was a mother. Oh, I'm sorry. Her mother.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
It's actually Amanda's mother said, you know, you could be on the Internet one day and up pops an image of your child laying in a pool of blood. Once those pictures are out there, they're out there and you can't take them back. She said, yeah, body cameras should never be turned off. That wasn't the issue. The issue was personal cell phones because people are like, well, they're on body cam.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So the issue is personal cell phones and distributing them. You also need like a court order to be able to look at the body cam footage and a request to do that.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, they can't download that to their phone and show everybody. So it was dubbed Amanda's Law, and it was first introduced by state rep Joe Wagner, who refiled it each time the bill failed to make it across and be passed. He kept refiling it. He said from that tragedy will come a good piece of law that will help other families who have had family members who are victims of serious crimes.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Amanda is buried in Chicopee in Hamden County at the St. Rose de Lima Cemetery. So she is there. Currently, Dennis is at the Sousa Baranowski Correctional Facility in maximum security. And I'm sure having a wonderful time being a very tiny man in jail.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Oh, fuck yeah, he's in Max.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
He stabbed a chick six times and cut her throat. He's in fucking Max.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Well, this isn't that great. I'm not going to end up here. Nah, you can go here all you want. head to chickpea all you want people enjoy uh nicknames here they call it the crossroads of new england which makes sense in that area it is kind of everybody goes through there to go anywhere and then of course this one which is a little less geographic the kielbasa capital of the world
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
So anyway, that's Chickapee, Massachusetts. Crazy shit. If you like the show, please get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. It helps a fucking ton. Head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. February 7th is Pittsburgh. February 8th is Columbus. That's first up. Get your damn tickets right fucking now. Let's go! Let's go. We can't wait for that.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's a lot of fun. Also, Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. Anybody $5 a month. Tons of bonus episodes this week. Personal ads for Crime and Sports, which of course you get. And then West Memphis 3. How the fuck did that happen? The beginning of it. There you go. Was this guy involved? Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. Keep coming back and seeing us.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. Keep hanging out with us and coming back. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
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Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Didn't expect that, did you? The amount of jokes that they're just leaving.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Chicopee, Chick-O-P, and then you've got Kielbasa, capital of the world, which I'm sure there's places in maybe Germany or Austria or something that would probably challenge you for that. Poland, maybe. I don't know where the hell they make kielbasa.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
The world. Not Massachusetts, not the United States. Whole world. All right. Little bit of history of this town. They've had a shitload of different. This is a big industry town. And that's the thing. All of these Massachusetts towns made shit and they had a lot of industry and factories. And this is kind of the story of a lot of Massachusetts town.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
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Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, there was cotton mills, wool mills, textiles, brass and iron foundries, paper making, footwear factories for leather boots and shoes. The first friction matches were from here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Shipbuilding. Everything was here. And then, of course, the firearms company Crescent Davis specialized in producing double barrel shotguns.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, specialized in cartoon shotguns. And the old Elmer Fudd. The Ames Manufacturing Company made machines and brass, I'm sorry, bronze cannons and more swords than any other American manufacturer at the time.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, they're the top sword maker, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Ames cast a number of bronze statues, including the Thomas Ball's monumental equestrian statue of President George Washington installed in Boston's Public Garden. That George Washington, that was made here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That was made here, yep. Also, they made a lot of shit for the Civil War and everything like that. They also, during the 1800s, became a major manufacturing center for bicycles. Mad Libs Town. The town became a site of at least two bicycle factories, the Overman Wheel Company from 1882 to 1899, and the Spalding Sporting Goods Company.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Which was a big goddamn deal. That's where in the 1800s, if you wanted a baseball glove or something like that, you ordered from their catalog.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yep. So they moved to the Overman bicycles, moved to Hartford a little bit later, and...
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
you know basically the bicycle boom of the 1890s kind of died with cars so that happened here and by 1901 overman was out of business so there you go reviews of this town five stars here we go they love it in my neighborhood everyone is nice and kind everyone everyone up my street around not one asshole on the whole not one pissy old lady that'll keep your ball nothing like that
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Up my street, there's an elementary school, so me and maybe most of my neighbors and their children would walk up to the school and back. I hope you have kids there. Just taking a stroll. For me, it usually takes 10 minutes to get to school and back. Around this area, we've seen many different race, but everyone is so nice. Not races, just many different one race.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
We would sometimes play outside during the summer with our longtime neighbor, and it would be the best summer. So you were a kid and you played outside during the summer. That's a really unique experience.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Thank you for sharing your unique experience of playing outside in the summer as a child.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Wow. Three stars here. I mean, it's okay. That's what they say. I can't really compare it to anywhere else as I've been here my whole life. Could use more stuff to do. School is meh. Yeah, it is meh. If you can't come up with a better adjective to describe it than meh, it's pretty meh.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
We shouldn't even listen to any of the words they said. Nope. Nope. Not bad. Just okay. Some crazy stuff to do. Some crazy stuff do be going on here, though. Is that right? I'm happy to hear that. That's what I like to hear. Crazy stuff do be going on here, though. If you're around the right people, you can see actual crime going on here. Actual crime. Drugs also kind of a problem.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about Noom. Has Noom helped you? I believe it has. Oh, it's got an app. You can do tracking. It's terrific. It does. Noom builds personal plans that can meet individual needs. That's the thing. Takes into account any dietary restrictions, medical issues, other personal needs. That helps build a plan that works for you.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
The rinky-dink roads are home, okay? People are either very nice or just don't care. Usually neighbors are willing to converse. Lots of Hispanic people in these buildings where I grew up. I mean, it's not exactly exciting just to exist here, but at least you don't get someone knocking on your door every day. What the fuck are you talking about? Utah? Are you saying the Mormons aren't bothering you?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
What the? Be up in these buildings. Occasionally, something crazy happens. Cops are dot, dot, dot. I don't know. Dot, dot, dot. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
They're cops. Kids here are dot, dot, dot. Not going to lie, kind of jerks when they get past the third grade. That's kids. That's kids. You named it. No guarantee. There may also be some gangs going on. Off topic, but crack is just exchanged at gas stations at night. Yeah. Where else are you going to buy crack? Like you pull up with all the people there. Still a nice suburb place.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
A kind of place you can get to know. Jesus Christ. And then finally, one star, a few really good neighbors, but can be dangerous depending on where you are. Some issues with collusion between the schools and other elected officials. Memorial Drive is a headache. That means that schools and officials have to, I assume, get together to figure out what they're going to do. And they don't want that.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
I don't know. I have no idea what else they could be talking about.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
things to do here the chickpea kielbasa festival of course it's the capital of the world you gotta have it yearly memorial day regional festival showcasing showcasing kielbasa polish culture and international foods games and vending and rides we'll hold off on all the jokes of the like the light bulb turning you know team light bulb turning and shit like that we'll just we'll just take a step back and not even say anything
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
This is an article from 1989 about the festival from 89 where they had the world's largest kielbasa.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
449 pounds. Holy shit. What? Holy. The size of a fucking horse. How long was that? It's insane. It took 15 employees of the Chicopee Provision Company 30 minutes to stuff the king kielbasa, which is showcased at the four-day festival. That kielbasa is 13 pounds heavier than last year's record setter.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Measured 26 feet 3 inches.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Come get my kielbasa, everybody. And the guy said, we just try to make it bigger each year, the kielbasa.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
That's great. When it's over, the kielbasa will be cut up and donated to charities. Want a slice of kielbasa?
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Like a pizza? Yeah, like a pizza. I think it's a large pie. That said, let's talk about some murder here.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Oh, boy, because we got a wild one. All right, let's do this. Let's go back not very far. Pretty much the world is just about the same. August of 2011. Yeah. Yeah, your phone looked the same. Things were the same.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
And, yes, I know that you've had your own personalized program here that you've been working on.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Things are normal. Let's talk about somebody with a familiar name, but it's not the same guy. Seth Green. Really? Like the actor and the voice actor from Family Guy. From Massachusetts.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Yeah, well, Rhode Island.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Well, I just mean Chris Griffin is from Rhode Island, the Family Guy character.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
Maybe. And Robot Chicken he did and all that kind of shit. So this is Seth Green. He's 27 years old.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
No, no. Well, the little guy works for Seth MacFarlane. Yeah. A little redheaded guy.
Small Town Murder
#560 - Solving A Murder Puzzle - Chicopee, Massachusetts
The guy, the guy who you go, wow, man, he looks terrible. And, but it's like, it's, it's, I feel bad for a guy like that because he was like a child actor, but teen actors are actually 22. So that's just what they look like. But you expect them to grow up and look different, but they don't. And then they look like just older children, but it's, that's because that's what he was done.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I think this guy just died in my driveway.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And then she's like, I don't know. Like, she's like, not do it. And the lady's like, ma'am, ma'am. And then then she goes, the lady on the other lines like, oh, well, the police are here now, so I'll let them handle it. And the 911 lady just goes, yeah, just just do that. Just do that. And hangs up like she's just like, I want to fucking strangle you. You asshole.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
But we're also going to be wearing costumes and I'm going to be making Jimmy do hits off a bong that will terrify him. So it's going to be a lot of fun. Get in there.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
You're making my job really difficult. So anyway, this poor postal worker is shot four times and dies in this neighborhood.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
In front of a bank of mailboxes. It's one of those neighborhoods that has the banks of mailboxes where you got to stop and walk down. Yeah, it's one of those. And so he's laying there. He has got three gunshot wounds to the body and a gunshot wound to the face. Oh, wow. To the face. I think it was one, two, three to the body and then one to the face after that.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
To make sure. So this is like someone's really mad about too many Publishers Clearinghouse fucking advertisements coming to them. I don't know what's going on here.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He's all dead. So this was next to a near a cluster of mailboxes on Heather Hill Street, just west of Renaissance Drive. And so they there's different varying witness statements as far as how many gunshots. Some people heard five. Some people are three. It's four based on the video that I heard. I heard four. So and this is 1232 p.m. middle of the day. It's the weirdest thing.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So they find that the mail carrier, his name is his name is Jason Schaefer and he's born in 1988. And he has a five-year-old son. He's considered a real nice guy. People in the neighborhood talk about how he brings the mail up to the door for, like, elderly people who have mobility problems and shit. Like, real nice guy. Everybody says, oh, even as a mailman, he's just a good guy. I know, man.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I get shit. Yeah, I get shit from other people all the time. And they know exactly. You know exactly who we are here. Damn it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So after the scene cleared, all the neighbors were all gathered around the whole thing. They all went and got their fucking mail that he just dropped off. They were like, well, I guess I got nothing else. So they all went to the mailbox.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
frame it it's his last one that's it so the neighbors here's one person said it's so sad this poor person was just doing their job you're in a peaceful area a beautiful neighborhood you would never think once that this would happen to you she said she's had wonderful conversations with her mail carrier she says I'm really just heartbroken for them just doing their daily job one other delivery worker said that he quote never really had any encounters on that street or anything like that
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I'll go with be real. He's a tall one. That's fine.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
and said it's definitely a shame, too, that this happened, whatever the reason. Someone else said, you wouldn't expect like your mailman would be hurt, I assume that's the tone of voice that's being said, or something would happen to him. This is a pretty nice neighborhood, I'd say, so it's just weird that it was right there in broad daylight, too.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah. And then you can just repeat everything I say. stabbed her in the face you can just do that over and over again right in the face so do that also while you're there check out the regular live show tickets Chicago in May you're up next let's go we got St. Louis and Chicago St.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
You stuck like in a place where like doesn't belong at all. So people said that he was known throughout the neighborhood. One guy said he hand delivered mail to some of the houses because they weren't capable of getting to the mailbox. Another guy. And then they so they're looking over this and they think it seems like a pretty personal act.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, it doesn't seem like I'm mad about my mail to shoot somebody that many times in the middle of the street.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Is he fucking my wife? That's the only, I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Real personal. So they describe the person they saw as a man with a hoodie and a blue mask. And several cameras around the area caught the shooting as well as the suspect running through the neighborhood on various cameras. You can just put the footage together and make a whole movie out of it. People don't realize it's just like that guy, the Telus guy in Vegas.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Remember the guy who was like a city council member who shot one of the other people? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's on every camera. There's his car. There's him walking to it. There's another. And you could just connect the camera footage to watch him come in and out of the neighborhood. Do people not realize that every single house has a fucking camera on it now? Yeah. I don't think they realize.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It's crazy. So they all catch that. One person here from the police department said, One witness saw kind of this shadowy figure standing across the street, almost like they were just waiting, like they knew we were waiting at the mailboxes for him to show up.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Another person said whoever they said, whoever this person was, they specifically had waited for Jason to be by himself before approaching from across the street. This was a strong indicator to us that this was planned. Nobody's just hanging out on the sidewalk. And then they're like, I'll shoot the mailman to death like that. That's odd.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So these video cameras here, they have one that has the shots heard. And I've seen the video and you hear the shots and then you see a small, dark colored little SUV traveling westbound on Heather Hill Street. So they said it's unknown at the time if that vehicle was involved in the incident or not, but you can see it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
You can also see a person running southeast across Heather Hill Street on these on these like towards or away from that car towards the car. Yeah. So they said the one camera here found at twelve oh six.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
This is six or twenty six minutes before the shooting that a black Nissan SUV missing the right front passenger hubcap was seen driving past the residence, then back onto Summerlin Lane eastbound toward Renaissance Drive.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Louis is about sold out get your tickets for Chicago and the rest of the year because a lot of these shows are sold out and almost sold out like Madison San Diego Grand Rapids Portland is completely sold out, so get your tickets right now if you want to go to these shows. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, a distinctive looking car.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, get yourself a white Chevy Malibu with all the hubcaps. Every rental car on earth, that's all they'll know. So another camera that was on the back of the house facing west toward Renaissance Drive got at 12.32 p.m. This video caught a person running southbound from where the incident happened.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
They said the person didn't seem particularly tall and was wearing what appeared to be a long-sleeved, dark-colored top with a possible hood and dark-colored pants and a blue face mask, again. So, again, a resident here at 2420 Summerlin Court, they said that they saw a black SUV, which they thought was maybe a Subaru, black.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Backed into an access road to a field at the end of Renaissance and Summerlin Drive. So this is like a whole setup. Somebody was waiting. They had a car parked. Yeah, this is crazy. So the postmaster arrives at the scene. The big boss of the area. I'm sure it wasn't the United States Postal Inspector General or whatever. I'm sure it was just whoever ran what he is, runs the local post office.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He shows up here and right away looks down, sees who it is and says, quote, did the baby mama do it? That's his first statement is, did the baby mama do it? Which is interesting.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Very interesting. He does have a child, a five-year-old child, with a woman named Devin Rebecca Schreiner, who is a few years younger than him. She is born in August of 1995. And they had been having some contentious back and forth about custody of the kid. Yeah. So they and the police start their investigation. They say this is not like a postal. This isn't business.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It wasn't killed over business. Probably probably has nothing to do with the post office.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
God damn fucking three cents. Really? so they look into his personal life and of course his ex-girlfriend who by the way this guy knows the quote baby mama because she also is a post office worker she's a mailman is that right she's also a male person so okay yeah so they both they met while they were working for the u.s postal service and back in 2013 or something is that a real incestuous group
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I guess so. I mean, I think everybody that works together just fucks each other. That's just the way it works. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I'm not an office guy and you were in your truck the whole time dealing with like linemen and shit. So probably wasn't the same for us. But I think if you work them anyway. No, I would hope not. You don't fuck a dirty guy named Ralph.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Of course they do. Because their name's Ralph. Nobody wants to go by that. So their son was born in 2015, like we said, and then they were not together very long after that. And a little bit on Devin Schreiner. She currently works at the Loveland Post Office. He works at the Longmont Post Office, Jason. She's on the other side. She works at the Loveland post office and lives in Fort Collins.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Also, listen to our other two shows, Crime in Sports, where we're doing a lengthy Evel Knievel series. It's terrific. You don't have to like sports at all. Just a crazy story about a crazy guy. The most American story that's ever been told, put it that way. So check that out, and then listen to your stupid opinions as well. It's the funniest hour in podcasting, so check that out. Then get Patreon.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Jason's mother said Jason wanted a family. So when Devin got pregnant, he was very happy and we were very happy for them. But right after the birth of the son, there was trouble. And apparently he moved out about when the kid was about six months old.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Quickly, yeah. They didn't even give it a chance to, we'll get through this first year and see if it gets any easier.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, he's on stage one still, for fuck's sake. He's not even getting the little tiny chunks. So they break up. The mother, this is Jason's mother, said their values were not the same. She did not want to work. She felt she didn't have to work being a mother, but you need two paychecks. Their relationship started to deteriorate and they broke up.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Jason tried to get along and co-parent together and that wasn't working very well. So Jason wound up getting a lawyer to set up a parenting plan. Oh, boy. They don't get along at all. As a matter of fact, it's been getting worse and worse and worse. And we'll tell you a few factors why. One is two weeks before this murder, she still worked at the Longmont post office with him.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She got fired from there for getting into a dispute with him at work. Holy. So that's the fucking thing. She got shit can from there for and I guess it was must have been her doing the driving of this because she's the one who got fired. She ends up moving over to the Loveland post office that week. She gets hired by them. So she ends up with another postal job.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
But they were working together as of two weeks ago.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And a postal friend that knew both of them. A postal friend? That's a weird way to put it. Sounds like she just mails her correspondence to you.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So she said that they knew them, you know, she knew them both, this person, and said that Devin had worked at the Longmont post office for a long time. And the couple's son was the source of tension between the two. And several years ago, Jason had even filed a restraining order against her because they had some problems.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
No, after. This is when after they had kids and after they had the kid and they were broken up and fighting.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of your bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything. You get a whole back catalog with hundreds and hundreds of episodes that you've never heard before of bonus stuff. New ones every other week, including this week, where you get one Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder, and you get it all, everybody. All of it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
The friend also said he was always concerned about whether or not Devin liked him or if Devin was OK. That's what this friend said about him and her. Now, two days earlier before the shooting. So that was two weeks earlier. She got fired and had to go get another job. With another post office, two days before he was killed, Jason filed for increased custody of his son. Two days. She was just kid.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She was just served the day before with the notice. So that's interesting. A county prosecutor later said in looking at her phone, it was clear that she was served with paperwork. She was aware that he was seeking increased custody and time with their shared child. that's not good.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And then if that's not enough to cause, and that's enough to cause a lot of strife in a relationship, here's the big kicker now. Oh? As of June of this year, for the last few months, Devin's sister, Rosa, has been living with Jason. She moved in there with him. They're in a relationship now. Rosa and Devin hate each other now.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
This is not going well at all. Very bad.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He's an uncle. Yeah. She's going to be an auntie, auntie mommy.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So the Jason's mother said just before the murder, Jason mentioned, mentioned that his girlfriend Rosa was living with him. I didn't think it was a very good idea because Rosa was Devin's younger sister. I told Jason younger sister too. I told Jason quote, you've opened up a bad can of worms here. Yeah, that's not only a can of worms. They're all rotten in there. They're all dead.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And rotted and festering. They all had like syphilis and shit. These are a can of dead syphilitic worms.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She does not that I know of. So this is fucking crazy. So between the last two weeks of time and the sister moving in, there's a lot of shit building up here.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I mean, she's the unluckiest person in the world if she didn't do it. So then they figured out that Devin, they looked her up after hearing all this. They found out that she drives a 2017 black Nissan Rogue, which is a little SUV, a little black SUV. How many hubcaps she got? And she has a missing hubcap in her front right passenger.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
All of it. This week for Crime in Sports. We're going to talk about the Miami Dolphins bullying scandal back in 2012 or 13 there. New stuff has come out recently, so we're going to get into that. And then Small Town Murder, the Amazon review killer, who's a crazy serial killer who held women hostage for his own crazy uses and then left reviews. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Not good. As a matter of fact, yeah, you can see because they had an automated license plate reader captured the vehicle in May of 2021. And it can be seen missing the right front passenger hubcap on that picture. She also has a new boyfriend. Also her. Not really new. She's been knowing and seeing this guy for a long time. I'll tell you exactly how long because it's pretty gross.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
His name is Andrew James Ritchie. Goes by A.J.,
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
A.J. Ritchie. He's a prison guard at Englewood Prison.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He's a CEO. So, you know, he's a great guy, too. You never know. So they met when he was 20 and she was, buckle up, everybody, 13. Oh, Jesus. That's when they met. So there's been something going on. Yuck. Since this time, allegedly, that's been going on here. So that's interesting.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She just loves a man in uniform. She doesn't give a fuck what the uniform is.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I like a guy with steady benefits, okay? Get over your auto zone. So this is one of the people here. The police people said they learned that Devin Shriner was not happy about Jason dating her sister. We know that for sure. She had vented to multiple friends, including A.J. Ritchie, about her anger at the situation, including saying such things as, quote, they have a new family now.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
My son, Jason and my sister. Yikes. Yikes. Now, by the way, AJ, this is her boyfriend, is currently living with his ex-wife and kids. And she says X. I don't know if they're divorced or what, but he lives with them. And the only time she gets to see AJ for the most part is on Wednesdays because he's off that day. And so she'll take her lunch break at his house and fuck him, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, it's wild. She comes over every Wednesday for lunch. That's her jam.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It's crazy. And their lunches are very classy, as we'll find out.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So they find all this out. They find out that their son, Jason and Devin's son, goes to the Gateway Montessori School in Longmont. So they go and they pick up the kid here because they don't want Devin to get the kid at this point because they think she's a murder suspect. So they really don't want to have her have a kid in her possession. So they go pick the kid up.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And plus, that will make her come to the police station if the kid's there.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
That's what they're trying to do.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
get control of you fast yep uh they call up rosa too to like keep and like basically hang out with the kid at the police station so he's not sitting there with strangers which pisses her off mightily as you might imagine and they they find out from the school they get devin's cell phone number which then they can get all the information oh yeah from so that's what they do um and they absolutely get everything from verizon that they can um
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
While at the school, they spoke with Rosa. Now the detectives speak with Rosa and Rosa said that that Devin's in a romantic relationship with AJ and that Rosa said also she's received that Jason has received threats from Devin and AJ and has messages and court paperwork at his residence about these threats, texts and stuff like that.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And Devin also threatened that AJ would shoot Jason like I'll have AJ shoot you. Okay. Now, so where was she during the murder? Let's find out. That's a good question. That's a good question. Well, the Postal Service here, the U.S. Postal, whatever the fuck here, office, utilizes all sorts of technology, including GPS on all of their scanning devices. They're used for a bunch. They scan packages.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Of the items of his murder implements on Amazon. Truthful reviews of, you know, this will keep a woman locked away for months at a time. And people were like, ha ha, laughing and finding it helpful. It's crazy stuff. We'll get into all that and more. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. That said, I think it's time. Let's get into this here. I think it's time to sit back.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
They also constantly report GPS data to USPS servers throughout the day. And so that they can see exactly where you were, exactly what happened, and make sure that you're doing your job.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
customers and people out on the road and it protects you lets them know where you are at all times if you get kidnapped they'll know yeah so that's how that goes and uh so they're looking with that the scanners require a login to use the device scanning they scan their employee id which then associates with the letter carrier to a specific device joins them together during this investigation they review the scan and gps records and you know related to devon
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And they said that when they did that, they found an extended period of time on the day of the shooting where the GPS data indicated the scanner was stationary.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
From 11 a.m. to 1.30 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Two and a half hours it is at her boyfriend's house. It's at AJ's house. That's where the GPS has. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
That is a long lunch there, boy. So the activity is unusual as the scanners normally display movement at regular intervals, you know, because you're delivering shit, basically walking, driving. So they said that at approximately 1015 a.m., the scanner device indicated she headed to begin delivering mail that day. And then, like we said, 11 something, it shuts off and then 130 it comes back on.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It starts moving again. So she was supposed to be delivering mail about 30 miles north of here in Loveland, but GPS data from her mail scanner shows that it stalled at AJ's house, like we said, during the time of the killing, an hour before to an hour after. So that's not good. They said it was 11.06 a.m. until 1.28 p.m. The GPS device was pinging in the area of Tradewind Court in Loveland,
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
More specifically, the 3101 trade wind court in Loveland, which is where AJ lives. Interesting. So they said that it's common for a GPS device to experience a phenomenon known as GPS drift, which the same device reporting several latitude and longitude combinations, even when stationary.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Oh, so they said the during this, they noticed they observed numerous pings in the area while the GPS device was listing a speed of zero in a direction of nine nine nine, which means it's not going anywhere. Even if there was a sat somewhere, if it pinged to like two houses away, it's just because of the drift that didn't go anywhere. So they said at 1.22 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
the scanner started moving again and it returned to the Loveland main postal dock port around 4.31 p.m. So she went out and finished her route.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Well, we'll find out about that. Actually, it's definitely not a tuna sandwich. I'll also, which is hilarious. I do like her choice of a lunch. It's pretty good. So on the morning of now, they got cell phone data to on the morning of the shooting. Cell phone data showed Devin and AJ were both at her Fort Collins apartment before they drove to AJ's home in Loveland.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, that's very fucking interesting here. They said that. And then by the time everything's over, by 518 p.m., she's back in Fort Collins, seen walking her dog. So she called at 527 p.m., called the Longmont Police Department to speak with a detective who had been she had heard they were trying to talk to her. She said, I heard the phone call, too. She's very much like an attitude.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. We are going to Colorado here.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Like, I just keep hearing I'm supposed to talk to you. And they're like, well, you should come down to the station. Something happened with your ex-boyfriend or your son's father. And she's like, my son's supposed to be with his father right now. Where is my son? And he's like, well, we picked him up. And she's like, I did not give you permission to pick up my son.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And they're like, well, either way, he's here. So you want to come on down? And they're like super calm. They're like, come on down. I'll give you my number and all this.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Dude, she has the most I'm on hold with customer service attitude of all fucking time.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She doesn't know. They didn't tell her that yet. So according to her, she's like, no one will even tell me what happened. And they're like, yeah, it's kind of complicated. So it's kind of an in-person conversation. We don't really want to get into it over the phone, especially while you're driving.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So she drove her 2007 black Nissan Rogue with a missing hubcap to the police department located at 225 Kimbark Street here and parked in the north parking lot. Two detectives went and looked through the closed window of the vehicle and they found they saw a blue face mask and a black hoodie that was lined and had a zipper and a drawstring.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
They're like, OK, well, there's that's what the murderer was wearing. That's interesting.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
No shit. So they tow the vehicle away to have it processed and everything like that. So where was her boyfriend that day? Besides, he started following him. We'll find out. OK. A search of a cell phone location and data showed his path that matched up exactly with Jason's path the entire time. He stalked Jason all morning. Crazy. One of the cops said, and watching that, it's almost scary.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
AJ was on top of Jason almost the entire mail route. It looked like AJ had been waiting for Jason's mail truck to leave the post office that morning. Then AJ followed him all around for two or three hours.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah. Like a fucking private investigator. A rideshare vehicle used by the Englewood prison where he worked as a guard was seen on camera several times following Schaefer's postal van also. And AJ's cell phone data and GPS data from the AJ or I'm sorry, AJ cell phone data and the GPS data from Schaefer's postal scanner appeared to be in the same locations for the entire morning.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Surveillance cameras detected Devin's SUV, identifiable by the missing hubcap on its passenger side, driving into the neighborhood of the shooting and parking on Renaissance Drive south of the shooting scene. This is crazy, right? This is the worst murder of all time. It's the worst murder ever. You can put it together.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Lovely place. We all like Colorado. Pretty. This is Longmont, Colorado. It's a good place. Which is a Denver suburb, basically. Yeah, yeah. But in Denver, the suburbs are far. Denver's spread out. Yeah. The airport in Denver is like an hour from Denver, so...
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
You can literally make a film out of the cars being followed and people running away, and then you can have next to it running a map of these people following him around. It's the worst murder of all time. It's been GPS Courtney. You might as well have walked into the fucking police station covered in his blood. Would be the only other way to look more guilty than this.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It's fucking ridiculous, man. It's absolutely nuts. Another security camera picked up the person approaching the van. This is Jason Schaefer's postal van. Then heard the sound of gunshots. Then showed the person running from the area in the hoodie and the blue face mask. Security cameras then captured the person running south before Devin's SUV was seen again, this time leaving the area.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And they asked, they asked Rosa, was there any reason for him to be there? Did he come over to like help you guys or hang out or something and take a picture? And they went, absolutely not. No reason for him to be there. He was stalking us. So they found, uh, this is from the detective quote. There was this saved Snapchat photo that AJ Richie had screenshotted and saved to his phone.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It showed an individual taking a selfie in a bathroom wearing the exact same outfit the shooter had on. And it's Devin in the picture where it's a picture of her taking a fucking selfie of herself wearing her murder outfit and sending it to him. And then he, like a dipshit, screenshots it. Yeah. Is this a good murder outfit?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Lay a little later on. You're just seeing your eyes. It makes me hot. If that wasn't enough shit to go on, there's also an assload of text messages that are really incriminating. I don't know if the only thing I can think is that Devin thought they'll never suspect me, even though I'm the ex who's fighting with him at work and has been served with papers two days ago.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Because there's no way anybody who thought they'd be a suspect would even do all this. It's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
everything's far here so when we say a suburb it's not like oh you could just drive to downtown Denver in five minutes this is about 50 minutes to downtown Denver so it's it's out there yeah it's all out there it's about four hours to Aspen Colorado which is not only a beautiful resort town but also the location of our last Colorado episode episode 527 killing the princess so that was I remember that one that was fun this is in both Boulder and Weld counties town kind of overlaps there
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
In 2021, that's inexcusable. In 2021, you have to know better, right? This is crazy. Never seen a documentary. Investigation Discovery never came in on her TV years ago.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
The Googler at least tried. These people didn't even try.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
From July 8th, 2021, AJ sent Devin a text about, quote, ending Rosa and Jason. Another text, they went back and forth, and he sent one to her saying, quote, you could just kill them both. These messages have been sent months ago and it's fucking crazy. They said they then then Jason had filed for the more time.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Cell phone data showed that they were on a call, AJ and Devin, for nearly three hours the morning of the murder as well. So like the whole time he followed Jason for three hours. So the whole time he's following Jason, he's on the phone with her telling her exactly what he's doing. Telling her what he's doing. They said, we believe he was coordinating with Devin.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He was sending information back to Devin about where Jason could be found on the mail route. AJ's the lookout for Devin. Wow. So, like we said, she called the investigators about 5.30 and agreed to drive to Longmont to meet the investigator. The investigator shows up in her car with the murder outfit sitting on the front seat like a fucking idiot. She's so bad at murder, this person. So bad at it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I can't believe it. I hope she's a better mailman or no one has gotten their fucking correct mail in years.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
This is crazy. So she shows up and the only way I can explain this interrogation would be imagine imagine you were just like walking through target going through the aisles and two police officers grabbed you took you and sat you in a in a fucking in a chair in the interrogation office and said we're going to talk to you about a murder okay You'd be like, hold on. What the fuck?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Oh, fuck are you talking? That's how she is. She acts like, first of all, she's like, first of all, she won't even let the detective talk, which is a sign of, huge sign of guilt when people do that always. Her eyes are like, you can see the whites of her eyes. Oh. She does not blink the whole time. Oh. Like, has this guy in her sights the whole time.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She is angry that she's there. And all she'll talk about is why was my son picked up from school? I did not give my son permission to be picked up from school. And he goes, OK, well, that's great. And, you know, the cop is super calm. He's like, listen, that's good. And I understand that.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
you know, she keeps saying without my permission and they're like, yeah, but you know, they, the guy even says, he goes, well, listen, I mean, this is your ex here who got, who's killed. And the, when she, when he tells her he's been, he's been killed and she goes, well, what happened? And well, first she buries her head. She goes, yeah, he's been killed. He died today is what the cop says.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And she just goes like this, puts her head in one hand and goes, yeah, That's it. And then she goes, what happened? But there's no like she put her head in her hand like I should show some emotion here.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Realize the well was dry.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She told like the look was like, oh, we just saw in your car. We were outside and it looks like one of your tires is flat. You go. That's what she did. It was just like that. Like that's inconvenient. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Population here is 98,789, and it's a suburb, but it's very suburb-y. It's not a city. It's spread out. It definitely fits small-town murder.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Soup, then he goes, well, she said, well, what happened? And he goes, well, he was shot in the face. And she goes, in the face? Like, that's her reaction. In the face?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He's dead, yeah. In the face? Like, oh my God, that's horrible.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So, but she kept, and then she's going back to her son. So where's my son? It's like, hold on, we just told you this guy got shot in the face and all you're concerned about. And he even said, well, you know, We got family down here. There's lots of people that we're talking to right now. And she's like, is my dad here? And they're like, who's your dad?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And even all the reviews are like, this small town, very small town. Everybody has that feel, so it definitely fits. Median household income here. is $83,104, which is above the national average by almost 15 grand. And then the median home price here, it's pricey. Denver's a pricey market. Here it is $535,800 to live an hour outside the city, basically. That is brutal, man.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He knows everybody that's there, but they just want to get. And she goes, big, dark Mexican guy, Raul. And he's like, I don't know. I'm not sure. He goes, we got Rosa here. And she's like, you got my sister? Okay. And they're like, yeah, your sister's. you know, watching your son right now. She's like, well, she does not have custody of her. We do not. I don't want her around.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
The guy's like, that's great. We'll just, let's get back to your, let's get back to the shot in the face part. Remember that?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And then she's like, she goes in the face, then she goes, I didn't even think he was working today. Jason I thought Jason was off today then they're like okay well look before we go any further we have to read you your rights because and the guy tries to play it real casual she's super offended that they're reading her her rights by the way she's like you have to read me my rights
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
why like i don't understand she goes well you know he goes you know when there's a murder you know we just have to we have to look at like the butler and the the bookie that he said he owes money to and you know x's and i don't think he has a butler and i don't think he gambles so you know you're the x so we got to talk to you we're gonna count the candlesticks all that shit all that shit so they you know she's super offended by this though and she's just like the whole time she's looking at him like this is crazy oh my god
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So they said it's obviously, quote, you have to rule out the butler, the ex, the bookie, you know. That's what he says. Real casual. She says, so he reads her the rights, and then he asks her, you know, where were you today? Mm-hmm. And she says, well, I was at work, so I don't know what you're even bothering me for. She's like, I was at work, so I couldn't have killed him, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Case closed. That's it. Okay. Expecting him to go, all right, never mind. And he even says, he goes, oh, well, that's great. That's a great alibi. He goes, terrific. He goes, that's good. Then hopefully we can get you out of here pretty quick. We'll get that gunshot residue test, and then we'll get you right out of here. Oh. And she's like, why would you do that? I don't understand.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It's really fucking funny. Then she says her rights have been violated because they're talking about doing gunshot residue tests on her and shit. And she's like, well, my rights have been violated because you took my son from the school. So she thinks she's going to fucking complain her way out of a murder investigation.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
yeah what's right yes violated what are you talking about this is not customer service at the walmart this is a fucking murder investigation you can't just yell your way out of it and stomp off so she says that she's very upset that um the sister is with the son again and she doesn't want the cops to talk to her son either she said well you don't have my permission to talk to my son and they go well we don't really need it because he's a witness so we're going to talk to him
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
They're just like ignoring everything she says. Well, since you're, you know, in custody at the moment or you're not in custody, but you are a suspect, we're not going to you don't really have any rights over him right this minute. And since his other parent is dead, we're just going to hand him to someone who doesn't seem like a murderer and see how that goes for somebody.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She seems all right with all this. And so, yeah, they tell her, we don't fucking need your permission. We're going to talk to your son. And she's not happy about that. That's like the first 20 minutes, by the way, of just irritating back and forth where you're just like, this fucking lady is really irritating. So then they finally get into the part about Jason.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She finally gets over the son and all that kind of shit. And she said the relationship wasn't great. Jason moved out when the baby was six months old. She said she filed a restraining order against him in 2016 after an altercation when she asked him to. This was after they had moved out with each other and everything. He was over and she asked him to leave and he got a little physical.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So she filed it. But I don't know anything if that's real or not. But I do know that he filed one against her. But I'm not sure if they did it against each other or what happened here. So then they tell her that, well, we saw your car near this scene. It was seen by several witnesses. And they go, it's very distinctive with that missing hubcap.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
They go, honestly, how many black Nissan Rogues with a missing hubcap are there? In the area, probably not a lot. You know what I mean? And she's like, why didn't I get the fucking hubcap fixed? So they said also a plate reader picked it up near the crime scene at the time of the murder. And so you mix all that.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
A little bit of history here. Longmont was founded in 1871 by a group of people from Chicago. Really? Yeah, a bunch of Chicago people. It was originally called the Chicago, Colorado Colony. That's what it was originally called. Yeah, that is fucking wild, which is insane. These men sold memberships in the town. They purchased the land necessary for the town hall with the proceeds.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
They're like, so, you know, not only did it was it seen with the hubcap missing, but then we know it was in that area because and she's made the toll.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She's saying that, you know, I was at my fucking I was at my boyfriend's house the whole time. So I don't know what you're talking about. And they're like, yeah, but you weren't because your car was here. So they ask her, does anyone else did anybody borrow your car? Does anyone else have keys? And she's like, well, I mean, I have another set, but I don't even know where they are.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So, no, no one borrowed my car.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It's fucking crazy. So they said it makes your cars very distinctive. Then they said then your GPS stopped like an hour and a half before the murder. It starts up again an hour after the murder. That doesn't look good. And she's like, well, I don't know what happened with the GPS because I was at A.J. Ritchie's house eating lunch when my scanner was stalled. I don't know what you're talking about.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I wasn't there for two and a half hours. I don't know anything about that. So they said, so you were there with.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
aj eating lunch and she said yes absolutely they said well what'd you have pizza rolls which good choice i love a pizza roll yeah they said what kind of bag i hope yeah what kind of pizza roll she goes i don't know i didn't make them you can tell in two seconds if it's the good ones are they store-bought or those shit genos well we know what yeah we know what they are here so um she so they said but you were there the whole time eating lunch with him yeah
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She's like, yeah, absolutely. That's what we were doing. I go over every Wednesday. Turns out there's surveillance video showing him eating lunch with friends at Hooters during the time of the shooting. He's at fucking Hooters. With his pals eating lunch, this guy.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He's eating shit worse than fucking pizza rolls.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I'd rather have pizza rolls than Hooters. Hooters is terrible. Food is awful.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So that is fucking amazing. She said that if she didn't scan packages, her GPS might go dormant. But that's maybe why it went dormant. But I was at my boyfriend's house. He was there with me. And the guy says over and over, he goes, you know, people just don't kill mailmen for no reason. They're like, it's just not a real highly targeted group of people. You know, it's just not.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah. And then they also say, we've also heard, because Jason told a lot of people this, that you told Jason that your boyfriend, AJ, would, quote, shoot him. Is that true?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, I don't recall. So they ask her, they go, we're just going to ask you straight out. Who was it? Was it you? Was it AJ? There's two cars that were seen. So it could have been either one of you. One car left and then another one showed up. And then at one point he goes, we think it was you.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
You know, just because it looks like a smaller person also in the video. It doesn't look like AJ. He was a big burly guy.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, we also found that. Well, they said, quote, we think it was you. This is the greatest thing I've ever seen in an interrogation. We think it was you. She takes a long pause and goes, thanks? The best I can describe it is thanks, dot, dot, dot, question mark. That's thanks. What is that? That's the oddest response to we think that you're the murderer in the video. Thanks.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It's not like they said there's this really sexy murderer, like smoking hot bod, like all this stuff.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
We think it's you. Looking at you and looking at the video, you got a rack to die for, sweetheart. I'm telling you.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
uh thanks thanks and they're like and the cop is like taking it back he's gotta just yeah yeah i'm surprised he didn't go hold on a minute and go out and tell everybody what just happened can you believe she just said thanks colorado murderers giving that one word that's the dumbest fucking thing they could have yeah exactly him and sweet and sweet and thanks It's fucking crazy.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, he's total Chris Watts here. So they ask, is it you or your boyfriend? And they said, your car is there. Your texts say you're guilty. They tell her they're going to do a GSR test on her. And they said, have you handled any firearms lately? And she says, um, no. And then she goes...
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
That's how they did it. They were like, well...
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I don't know if I should, should I be asking for an attorney or I don't know how you go about that or what I should be saying right now. And he goes, well, you want an attorney? You can have an attorney. We'll stop right now. And she goes, yeah, I think I should have one. And they go, okay. And they leave the room and then a postal inspector comes in.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Now, the postal inspector, whether she's asked for an attorney or not, can still talk to her because this is about work. This has nothing to fucking do with the murder, even though it's all about the murder, too. But he's going in and asking her about her work shit, which has nothing to do with that. So he enters the room. It's work related. And this guy.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Acts like he's just he goes, I don't know what's going on here. I'm just trying to, you know, maybe you can help me. You know what I mean? I don't know. You probably know more about these scanners than I do.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
This is the first planned community in Boulder County, and the city streets were laid out in a grid plan within a square mile. So it was boring right from the start. They laid it out as this is going to be the burbs, babe. It began to really pick up as an agricultural community after the railroad arrived when they can take the stuff out of there. And then it – who knows? And it developed.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
We're going to go ahead and take your employee ID. She said she went to the residence for lunch around 12 p.m. She knows the access code to get into AJ's home. So she entered the code, went into the residence on her own. She said they had pizza rolls and water that he cooked for her, which we know is a lie because he's at Hooters.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She said that she and AJ argued while she was there and that AJ left in his vehicle, which was described as a big truck. And she said she went in her postal vehicle, sat in it and cried for a while and then went back to work. So she said, yeah, it was her boyfriend's day off. She always went there to spend lunch with him, you know, because he lives with his wife and all.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So pizza rolls and arguing. She said she doesn't she does own firearms. I'm sorry, but doesn't know where they are at her house. I don't know where my I have a five year old, but I don't know where I keep my guns.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I keep a five-year-old and loose guns around the house. That's how this works. I know where my kid is, but not my gun. Not my guns. She said in November 2020, she went to a shooting range and she shot a long gun and she didn't know what kind. And she said she is familiar with guns and has shot firearms in the past. They asked, did she have her cell phone with her the whole time? She said yes.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Nobody borrowed her phone. She's the only one also, she says, to access her car that day. She's the only one who drives it, and she has the only set of keys that she knows of. She doesn't even know where the other ones are. This all comes to a head without her confessing or her doing anything. And they're just like, well, I guess. By the way, she could have gotten up and left at any point in this.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She was not under arrest. Rather than keep looking guilty, she could have said, I'm taking my son and going home. Fuck you. And she would have absolutely been within her rights to do that. But she didn't.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, she didn't want to hear him. So AJ, they get him in there. And AJ says, okay, fine. I'll tell you everything. Oh, yeah, he does. He initially denies it. But then he says he dropped her off at work and then drove around. He said he talked with Devin multiple times on the phone that morning because she had spoken of killing Schaefer and he was trying to persuade her not to go through with it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
That's what he said. He then said that he was trying to warn Jason about Devin's plan to hurt him. That's why he was following him around. Never stopped and told him or anything, but just followed him around.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
There's a couple packages there. I don't want to bother him with that. Oh, that looks heavy. When the police asked why he didn't call the police if he thought that Devin was going to hurt Jason, he said that, quote, he didn't know if she was serious. I don't fucking know.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He said that he told detectives that the threats to harm Jason had been going on for a while and they didn't seem as serious as on previous occasions. He's wow. He said, except for the three days before the shooting, when Devin messaged him a picture of herself dressed in clothes similar to those of the shooting suspect, the cop said. So, you know, yeah, that was sent to him three days earlier.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So according to this, Richie said that he took it upon himself to drive to Longmont and find Jason's truck and wait to confront Devin. He was going to wait and go, you know, you go back in your car, Devin.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
He said then he briefly spoke to Devin, warning him or briefly spoke to Jason, warning him to watch out for Devin. He told police that at that point he felt he had, quote, done all he could.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I think that's still – I don't know what they're growing. I guess wheat. That's all I could think of that would grow there. So I'm sure there's other shit, but I know wheat is that area. That's the wheat belt. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I did all I could and went back to Loveland. And that was that. So the cop said there was extensive thought that went into this murder. Devin's going to plant her cell phone. and her mail tracker up at AJ's house. And as soon as she knows that the last location for Jason, that she has a good idea where he's going to be, she gets down to Longmont from Loveland, and this happens.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
On 45 different cameras. Not smart. So she thought about technology very briefly, but not much more than that.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Forgot about all that shit. So, by the way, they arrest her. They arrest AJ, obviously. While she's in jail, there's another ex-boyfriend, by the way, who she's still sort of seeing here. His last name is Castaneda. And the detective asked her during the interrogation, was it AJ? Did Castaneda do this? And she's like, why would you even bring him up?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
hey castanet and he's like i don't know it's one of your boyfriends you know maybe you got him to do it or maybe he was mad about jason or something and she's like no like i don't even talk to him like that's silly so as soon as she's in jail she's talking to him every day on the phone by the way this castanet a guy who's a complete this guy is a fucking tool their their jail phone calls are on youtube with video
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So you can see him crying the entire phone call while she is just like not – she has no emotion, stone-faced and just like trying to get him to help her. So basically they got on the phone because he's telling her that – I don't know if you saw yet, but what just came out today, AJ confessed to everything – And let it out.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah. No shit. But then after that, it kind of became just like a suburb, and that's what it's been since then. So a few reviews of this town to give you an idea of what it's like here. Five stars. Longmont is a nice and growing community north of Denver and east of Boulder. It is very family-friendly with a vast system of parks and running trails.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And he gave the police a picture of you in the outfit that the murder took place in. And she's just silent.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Dude, he tells she said that he just tells her everything that AJ told the cops. And her response is, quote, I'm sorry you had to hear all that on the news. she's cold. She's cold, man. Um, yeah. And he says, I just wish I could have seen you again. And she says, I know. I wish I could see you too. Um, and she goes, are you going to be okay?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And she says, I'm sorry. I wish I knew what to say to make it better. Say you didn't kill this person. And yeah, I wish I could make your situation better, but it's getting worse. And it's not your job to make this better. You know, like that kind of thing. And so he says, she says, though, I'm sorry you're hurting. And he says, I love you. And she says, I love you.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
This is their no relationship, according to her. And and I think she says, you don't have to say it if you don't want to. And he goes, I do. I want to. And she says, I know. I'm sorry. I wish I could fix things for you. And she said, I don't like seeing you upset. And no, I don't want to use the kid's name at all because he's still definitely a minor.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And her son's having a hard time because it's in the actual thing. But we won't use his name because that's crazy. Um, having a hard, uh, I know you're having a hard time and she, he says, yeah, I'll still call you every day if you don't, you know, and she says, you don't have to, if you don't want to. And he says, well, I know it's hard for you right now.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay and choo-choo! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us on another wild, crazy, insane edition of Small Town Murder Express all aboard the murder train pulling away from the station.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And then he's like, so what we, what do you want me to do with your stuff? Um, What do you want me to do with all your stuff?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, this guy, yeah, it's her ex-boyfriend. He had nothing to do with this.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
AJ's arrested and in jail, but this guy isn't. He's not arrested. So she's got her ex-ex-boyfriend doing her bidding for her on the outside. He's like, I'll go clean out your stuff in your apartment. What do you want me to do? And she says, just sell what you want. Just try to keep the jewelry and those personal things that you know I like. Everything else can go. It's really not that important.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Yeah, in case I get out. At one point he goes, because I'm not going to see you for 25 years now. It's fucking amazing. It's like an eight-year-old. Yeah. So they have a postal procession. They have 47 postal trucks ride Schaefer's mail route as a parade. Yeah, they take 47 postal vans and they do a memorial procession doing his exact mail route every day, which is hilarious. Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I don't mean to laugh. This poor guy is a fucking, but that's hilarious. Jason would go, guys, calm down. Chill. You don't need to do that.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
That's crazy. Yeah, you're like, what the hell is going on out there? Are we being invaded by the post office? What's happening? Are they a military force now? Guys, the post office is taking over.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
That's amazing. So his mom speaks at the memorial and says, one thing I've learned through all of this is that he was like a little hummingbird, a butterfly. He just brought so much joy and whimsy to all of us. She said, I thought. Yeah, she's she said, I thought it was me. I would listen for the sound of his old mail car. And all the residents were there, too.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
One person said this answered nothing. It wrecked everybody. It wrecked her family, his family, people around him. None of this is an answer, meaning the shooting. Postal workers were called him as a great softball player on the post office team and a good friend. One guy said it's been a week and I'm like, are you on long vacation?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
The commute is great, and it still has a vibrate Main Street area.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I've been wanting I've been waiting for a text and be like to be like, I'm so sorry. I can't believe all these people came out. So Devin goes to trial here, and her defense is that, well, the prosecution is saying that she's upset because he was dating her sister. Duh. Pustity stuff. You know, you can take the rest from there. The defense said that Devin was corrupted by A.J. Oh.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
That's the real culprit here is A.J. They said, quote, Ms. Shriner is not a murderer. She was the weapon, but she was A.J. Ritchie's weapon. Is that right? Even though all the motivation to kill belongs to her, not him. He's married. He has no time for this shit.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It's his day off on Wednesday. It's when he usually fucks his girlfriend. Instead, he'll do some... The defense said that, yeah, that he's corrupted her. So they also said that AJ had groomed her since she was a child and that they met when she was 13 and he was 20. I don't know when a sexual relationship started, but that's when they met.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Vibrates. Vibrate Main Street area with a small town feel. Downtown is very popular with the ladies, Main Street. It is. It is.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
They show all of that mountain of evidence, of technological evidence, and it is guilty. I mean, there's no way out of this shit.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
You can watch her on the video doing it. So at sentencing, she declined to speak, then moved toward a corner and shielded her face from view as the impact statements were read.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Not good. Jason's parents here, Jason's mother called the son's murder a living nightmare. She said her family's lives have been destroyed forever, and her grandson is now living with relatives in Connecticut. She said, I have not slept since his murder. Our lives have always been destroyed. The son does not deserve to be without a father.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Jason's father said, you can hug your son, but I can't hug mine due to your calculated actions. And the judge says, I got some calculated actions for you. You, ma'am, may fuck off life without parole. Oh, boy. Dick eating line starts that way.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
that is a, that's what I mean. This is, this is cold, man. This is fucking cold. So, um, during the trial, they bring AJ to trial too. And they, during the trial, they show his cell phone being tracked along the route. And I mean, he's just as obviously guilty as she is.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And there's even a text that she that's read among several, but this is the jewel of the texts here that he had sent her about a month ago that said, quote, you could just kill them both and make it look like they killed each other. Meaning Jason and the sister Rosa. Yeah. In closing statements, they described him as the eyes and ears of Devin Shriner's murder operation.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And he is found absolutely guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to you, sir, may fuck off life without parole.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
In prison. Hopefully for him, not that prison. So they said, with today's guilty verdict, the two people responsible for this premeditated and cold-blooded murder will be held fully responsible for killing Jason Schaefer while he was delivering mail. They said the two robbed Jason's family and U.S. postal colleagues of a beloved son, father, and friend. Not the postal colleagues. God damn it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
They just sit on the ground and look happy. I don't understand it. Here's three stars. I grew up here, and it's still my permanent residence. However, I moved away for college. As a kid, there's not much to do here. There's a lot of issues with teenagers and drugs. Gee, I'm sure that's really unique to this area, that teenagers do drugs sometimes.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So this is horrible. The guy seemed like a nice guy and definitely didn't deserve to be murdered while he's delivering. No one deserves to be killed at work. That's terrible.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Do it in the off time, for Christ's sake. So there you go. There's Longmont. There's a crazy story. Going to do the ending real quick here because we're running late. Definitely shut up and give me murder.com. Tickets 419 is the 420 virtual live show. Can't wait. It's available for two weeks after it, too, just like a regular live show. But in your living room, shut up and give me murder.com.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Get those. Get your tickets for regular live shows. Chicago, May. Get your goddamn tickets right now. Definitely follow on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, Patreon.com.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
slash crime and sports all your bonus material five dollars a month only and anyway you get a huge back catalog immediately upon subscription hundreds of episodes this week one crime and sports one small town murder you get it all crime and sports 2012 miami dolphins bullying scandal amazon reviews killer for small town murder crazy killer serial killer reviewed murder products on amazon patreon.com slash crime and sports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show you want to follow us on social media shut up and give me murder.com drop down menus go everywhere
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Thank you so much, everybody. And until next week, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
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Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Jesus. It's like a small town with way too many people. Everyone knows everyone and not in a good way. Wow. Everyone's nosy is what they're saying.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Still know everybody. That's what I mean. It really feels like a small town from the way everybody talks about it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
is a psycho and enjoys their commute to denver it's any direction it's a night 50 minutes of bliss baby that's it i'm going i'm getting in my car i can't wait all this stop and go maybe they listen to this show and they're excited that they get a chance to hear the whole podcast they want to hear i get a whole hour into this thing and then i get to sit down and listen to this in the cube
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Here's three stars. The town is this town is right in the middle, not rural or overpopulated, hot or cold, conservative or liberal. Everything about this town is very average. And that's OK. That's OK. I don't know. I don't know. That person is very easily pleased, I feel like. Honestly. They're easily satisfied. And finally, one star.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Nasty, spiteful, awful people who treat service workers terribly. Don't recommend moving here. Zero empathy for other human beings whatsoever. And that's all caps. Rude and unkind. Well, you already said nasty, spiteful, and awful. Do you need to add rude? There's a lot of adjectives. Absolutely the worst interactions had in years. So that's interesting. Things to do here.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
There's a bunch, but this is the Winter Walkabout Music Showcase. I guess they do this every year in the beginning of February, so we just missed it. Presented by the old Flatirons Bank. It's over 16 venues, 60 performances, and one all-inclusive ticket. So you can drive all over town going to see these bands. And I'll give you some of the bands here. I have never heard of any of these people.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So maybe you have. I'm not sure. It's probably country. Megan Burt with two Ts.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
You can't put two T's, right? I was hoping you would catch on to that, because I'm like, with two T's, B-U-R-T-T.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Megan Butt. Augustus will be there. Just declaring... Well, he dropped the galoop part. That's maybe. I was thinking he was going to say he was taking over as emperor. I'm not sure. The Black Hole Boogie Band.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
hell yeah beats me yeah i don't know what the fuck that is but great erica brown with mj and the side gig okay that's too many people you know what you should do with that many people get a band name and call yourselves that rather than just name all the people in the band there's your bad name yeah they don't say john bon jovi and richie sambora and the backer guys it's not bonjo the other guys you don't know
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
We have, of course, a crazy one as usual for you today. This is wild. I watched this interrogation a few months ago and was like, well, we gotta do this. Because this is... Crazy stuff. We'll get into all that and more first. Head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. Get tickets for all your live shows, including the virtual live show, which will take place on April 19th.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
You pick a name, something catchy. And Erica Brown with MJ and the side gig is not catchy. It's not working. The Tribonacci Trio.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It sounds like some mother that's forcing her three Italian sons to sing. Like, we don't want to sing, Ma. Like, get your asses out there and sing. And they're like, okay. Do it. You sing like angels. Get out there. All right, Ma. Annika and the Obsession. The Rampart Street Stompers. Ain't From Here. All right. Okay. Assume that's country. The Mile High Brass Band.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Mackenzie Ray and Buckshot Moon. Okay. This is bad. Queso Raw. Like Queso Raw, but Queso like the cheese.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I guess so. Fox Feather. Jesus. Sturtz. La Pomp. Gabrielle Mervine Quartet. I could go on, but I think you get the fucking picture. A bunch of people you've never heard of. Fucking locals. I've never heard of any of these people. Yeah, none of these people at all. So there you go. Banana Bangs. That's a bad name.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
I'm not sure what's happening there. That said, let's talk about a murder. Forget these unknown bands that I have never heard of. Let's talk about a murder. Let's start out. This is going to be real recent, too.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Real recent. October 13th, 2021. Let's start out.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
golly real fucking recent yeah this is crazy uh it is 12 32 p.m in longmont okay uh 9 11 or 9 11 911 calls 9 11 i say like i live in uh another country some countries say the 9 11 when they're talking about so does 70 year old men my dad says it and i'm going really saying that i looked at it as like you know like not like september 11th and when i saw yeah right i read it my own handwriting of 9 11
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
911 is less syllables. It makes no sense.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
So they receive a call, 911 does, from 2010 Sicily Circle, which is the address they get it from. And it is advising that they heard shots fired. And we'll see from surveillance cameras in the neighborhood that you can hear, I mean, clearly four shots ring out. It's one, two, three, and then a fourth with a pause.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And it is, you know, knowing what happened, it's pretty disturbing to see these videos. So they get a call here. Now, it's a woman saying that a postal worker was shot at the end of their driveway. They said, our mailman has been, someone shot him, and we saw, you know, somebody running away. We saw a man with a hoodie on and a blue mask running away from it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
What happened? Dude, I mean, I said no more catalogs. Like, what the fuck do you want from this guy? He's the mailman.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
And I had a pain in the ass mailman at one point, and I still wouldn't have shot him. That's a little much.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
What do I got, a 30-second interaction with him? I can make it at most if I have to sign for something. Oh, God, he's got so much work to do. He's got a lot going on here. So this woman is saying, too, like, it's outside. I don't know. He's outside, and my neighbor's out there. So the 911 operator is like, can you please –
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
It's a Saturday night. It is a day before 420. It's the 420 virtual live show, just like a regular live show, except you can be anywhere you want to be in the world with Wi-Fi anywhere you can in your living room. Hang out with us. Same thing as a regular live show. The pictures, the jokes, the story.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
go outside yeah it's and 2021 yeah take your cordless shit out there what are you still tethered to the wall she's on her cell phone but she's saying i'm if i don't want to go out there i'm afraid to go out there because i don't know if this person's gonna come back she said one of my other neighbors is out there with this postal worker and you know i don't know i don't want to go out there so the 911 person's like you got to go out there you got i need information you have to go tell me if this person's breathing you have to tell me go put that guy on the phone
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Whatever. It's another lady out there, too. So there's two older ladies that are hovered over this guy. So they said a man in a dark-colored hoodie, possibly wearing a blue mask, seen running southeast from the location. This 911 call is frustrating, too. This operator is two seconds away from calling this lady a bitch. Like, it is... Two seconds.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
The lady on the phone of the 911 operator lady on the phone is pissed at this lady because she's like, go over there and look at him. Is he breathing? And she goes, like, I'll go out there. I guess. OK. And she's so casual about this. And she's like, oh, he's bleeding. And they're like, from where? She's like, I don't know. Look, from the mouth, I guess. And they're like, okay, can you see?
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
Where is he shot? Is he breathing? And she's like, I think he's breathing. And they're like, well, you need to perform CPR. Can you get down there, check to see if he's breathing and perform CPR? And she's like, I don't know how to perform CPR. I'm not doing that. And the lady's like, someone's got to perform CPR. She's like, I don't care if you know or not. I'll fucking tell you how to do it.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
She's like, ask the lady with you. Does she know CPR? Is someone willing to do CPR? This lady would not go near this man. Basically, she did everything but say, gross.
Small Town Murder
#576 - Electronic Murder Bread Crumbs - Longmont, Colorado
If I'm ever shot and killed and this lady's calling 911, I'm going to be fucking upset. And then at one point she's like, no, I don't think he's breathing anymore. And what? Yeah. And then the 911 operators like, can you get down and first of all, make sure he's not breathing and then start fucking CPR if he's not breathing.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Oh, my mom only cares about my little brother and things like that, which is just what you feel like when you are the kid from the previous family. And now you're you're the fourth wheel in a new family. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah, that's how you feel, whether it's true or not. I had it twice. Both my parents went on to get remarried and have kids, so I was like, oh, okay. So I always felt like I was never, even though they didn't try to make me feel like that or anything, but I never felt like I was a part of anybody's family. I always felt like I was my own entity, you know? You go back and forth.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Remember when we did that dumb shit? And they're both still married to the people they remarried. Had a real stable shit. My brothers had real stable upbringings and all that. Mine is a fucking mess. And it's like, yeah, thanks, guys.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's a lot of fun. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Yeah. You wonder why I'm kind of leery of joining things.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Isn't that weird? It's fucking true, man.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It's funny as shit. Through the course of this show, people have gotten to know me and a little weirdness, a little peek behind the curtain every once in a while. And what created this might help.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Wasn't helpful. I'll tell you that much. So that's why you become a comedian. You're like, look at me. I know you got a cute baby, but look over here. I'm funny. Christ, that's so funny. Give me a microphone so I can fucking make people listen to me.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Also, if you've listened to our show and then you've listened to all of Small Town Murder, you listen to Crime and Sports, you listen to your stupid opinions as you should be doing, then there's still some more that you haven't heard. And that is Patreon.com. My goodness, patreon.com slash crimeinsports is where you get all of the bonus material. And we are talking immediately upon subscription.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Hope he doesn't cramp your guys' style too much. Here, I'll take it with you.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
We're trying to have a happy life.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It's even sadder because it was little Jimmy. Will you take little Jimmy? That's even sadder. Outside of the show, I'm Jimmy to everybody else. So that's fucked up too. Makes it sound sadder. Ah, fucking shit. Me with my fucking bowl cut. Nice. Perfect. Looking like 77 Pete Rose.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Okay. So, yeah, that's what's going on here. So Barbara would always reassure Hannah. She loved both of them equally. And I believe Barbara, too, from what everybody says. She didn't treat them poorly or anything like that. But anyway, before Hannah, right before she gets to high school, Barbara and Robert decide to get a divorce. So they split up. So, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So now Barbara and Hannah end up moving into a small apartment in Middlebury, and then the son has its shared custody with the father. So he goes back and forth.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Two failed. Yeah, and Hannah's like, well, how do you like that, little brother? Now who's the intruder? Now you know how it feels. One of us lives here all the time. Now, a little bit about Hannah here. People always call her the preacher's daughter. That's a big thing. Preacher's daughter, preacher's daughter, because her dad's a preacher.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So that has a lot of tentacles to it, being a preacher's kid that's sometimes positive and sometimes negative. So when she entered high school, she was feeling rebellious, we'll say. I'm sure. It's just the way it is. It makes sense. She transferred to the high school in Middlebury and found a new group of friends, and they're a little more –
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
of a kind of like an emo gothy group than she's used to, that she used to hang out with. But it's high school, so.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
You find people. It's just the way they dress and what music they listen to. I mean, it's all, you don't, not like you have a weird lifestyle in high school. You still go home and eat dinner with your parents and then put black shirts on. Who gives a shit?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's it. So she really gets tight with her new group of friends, and that's kind of like her support system in terms of the way she thinks about it here. And basically there isn't a lot to do around Middlebury for a teenager.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So you just drive around the back roads of Amish country is all you do as a teenager.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It sounds very nice, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
No, I would have certainly found a field to grow weed in here. That would have been my teenage goal here.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
There we go. Go back and see. Keep going. See what's going on here. So they would drive around and play music and do all that kind of thing here. Now she has a complete jerk off of a boyfriend.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
This guy, Spencer, and that's with an S, by the way. S-E-R, not C-E-R. Stop it. Oh, yeah. Someone is not good at spelling in his family. Spencer Anthony Krempetz. K-R-E-M-P-E-T-Z. Krempetz. God damn. That's a bad name. He's 18 in 2005, so he's a year older than Hannah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And apparently they met at a place called The Post, Hannah and Spencer, which is a youth center outside of Middlebury where local bands play. And they have like a little coffee shop kind of a thing going on and kids hang out there, which sounds like the 50s.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Anybody $5 a month or above, you get hundreds of episodes that you have never heard before immediately when you subscribe. And then you get new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And how much of that do they get?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
You know what I mean? We didn't have a little coffee spot where the teens heard the bands bop. No, if you wanted to go somewhere, fucking New York City's an hour away. Get in a fucking train and go see Metallica at Madison Square Garden, you pussy. What are you doing? No one wants to do this. But this person, I don't know. This sounds like the 50s, though.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
We're going to go down to a little coffee shop and hear the bands play. Put your hoop skirt on. It's strange.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Oh, you'd have the places people hung out at. Yeah, yeah, totally. But to have local bands playing, that looks like one of those early 60s movies where everybody's bopping. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
No, no, never. So, yeah, if they were, it was in someone's garage. So the way they met is Spencer met one of Hannah's girlfriends and offered her a cigarette, which is a nice come on. Want to smoke, baby?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And she said no. What are you, a square?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
No, no, yeah, I know it's a square, but I was thinking the 50s still. I was stuck in the 50s.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So the girlfriend said no, and Spencer said why? We're all going to die at some point anyway. It doesn't matter.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I have such 18 year old, you know, angst, man.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
You're all going to die anyway. Now, Spencer's had a not a great life either. We'll put it. I mean, this things create an 18 year old that acts like a jackass. Yeah. They're made. They're not just going to sprout out of the ground.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Every damn drop of it. This week is no exception. This week for crime and sports, we're getting into something dirty here. We're going to talk about the Kobe Bryant rape fiasco.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Look at me. All his clothes, everything. He's got a lot of Damien Echols in him. And that's not an insult even to Damien Echols. Because as far as he wants to show, I'm not like you hicks in this little town. And I am different. That's his thing. You know what I mean? And it's the same type of thing. He's a smart kid that has shit grades. Yeah. Same. We all know those people. That's what I mean.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
There's a lot of those in every town. He was molested when he was five by an older kid.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And by 11, he was smoking weed and doing acid as well. You should not be doing acid. You shouldn't be smoking weed or drinking either.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
But you should definitely not be doing acid until your brain is fucking off.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Your concrete has to set a little bit before you start doing acid because that fucks with your brain, man. It really does.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So then from ages 14 to 16, he was doing heroin.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
This is not good. Then when he was 16, he gave up heroin, but he learned that the guy he always thought was his father wasn't his father.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
from 2003 and then for small town murder it is internet salad time again where we're going to give you a peek behind the curtain what we do before a show starts which is basically look on the internet see what's going on and make fun of it because that's what we do so we're going to go through and just all the stuff of the day that's happening take your mind off of anything heavy no politics whatsoever none of that shit just stuff that doesn't matter we'll joke all about it that is patreon.com
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Which is also, again, never good at all. Right.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I was going to say, that's what they think set Ted Bundy off. Right, yeah. To this day, that's what everybody thinks set Ted Bundy off when he found out who he thought was his dad wasn't his dad. So that age, around 16, that's when he left home and moved out. And he moved in with friends and things like that. He got real into the whole death thing.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That was a real big thing, much like Damien Echols. He was real into the whole death thing. This is funny. He stole bats from Halloween displays.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Little wings. Yeah, batty. So that's not real dark. Let's be realistic here. Just because he thought it was cool to hang bats around. But, I mean, from Halloween displays, they're not exactly.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah. If he was out, like, killing bats and, like, you know, laminating them and hanging them from a ceiling. That would be weird.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's strange. So he's real into like, you know, metal music, obviously, and anything about death. You know, I'm sure he's into like that weird Northern European death metal and shit like that. He spent the night in a mausoleum a couple times just to be creepy and tell people that here. He would walk around Middlebury in a black trench coat. Does this sound familiar?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
If you've listened to the West Memphis stuff, a lot of kids like this at this time too. That's it. Yeah. And this was just to try to make people look at him. He was trying to cause a stir and that's it. Um, he tried to make a statement by the way he walked and he tried to intimidate people and people mentioned people would always say that he had an evil look in his eye.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I don't know what that means other than I'm 18 and I want to be tough. So nobody else molests me.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Psychologically, that's what's behind that.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's it. So August 3rd, 2005, this is all kind of coming to a head where, as you can imagine, Barbara is not thrilled that Hannah has chosen this man as her boyfriend.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Not liking him at all. No.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It's an ongoing battle, and this day it happens, where finally Barbara tells Hannah, if you're not going to break up with Spencer, you've got to get out. I can't have this here. It's too much disruption. I don't want him in my house. Blah, blah, blah. So Hannah said, fine, I'll leave.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And so she and Spencer went to their friend's house, Aaron McDonald, who's 17 years old, to hang out and smoke weed and figure out what they're going to do with their lives now.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's the problem, yeah, especially at 17, because they feel like if they back down now, then they're not as grown up as they thought they were.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
slash crime in sports. And you get a shout-out at the end of the regular show.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's part of it, too, I think. That's what they think, yeah. And it's also like if you're going to tell me what I can do and what I can't do, I'm going to leave. But then you don't have really a plan for how you're going to leave because you're 17. Right, no, no, no. Of course not. So Aaron McDonald, their buddy here, he predates Spencer in weed smoking.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He started smoking weed at age six, which I love weed. I'm a big weed guy. That is too early to start smoking weed. Yeah. Six?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Wow. He's a regular presence in church and school, though, and everyone thought he was a real nice kid, Aaron. He kind of hides his shit behind everything here. Everyone says he's kind of a follower, always trying to be a part of something. That's kind of his thing. He's got a good childhood and a good family, though.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
For sure. Jimmy will mess your name all up while he wants to get it correct. That said, I think it's time, everybody. We've got to dive right in here. It's time to sit back. What do you say, everybody? Deep breaths, arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We're going to Indiana. That's a place.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I don't know how they weren't noticing that he was fucking high at age six, but I don't know. He might have went and stayed at an aunt's house and he had an older who the hell knows how that happened. So when he was in elementary school, though, he starts to fall behind as elementary school starts going.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And he basically wasn't bright enough to keep up in class, which he might have been before he started smoking weed at age six, though. Who knows?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Fuck, he would come home from school and he'd be crying because the kids at school thought he was stupid and made fun of him for it. And he was pretty stupid. He wanted to be accepted and he wanted friends and they were just like, you're a fucking dummy. So that's how it went.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So you end up with this group of other kind of misfits. That's how it's the misfit toys. They go together.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's it. So this week, by the way, Barbara's divorce just became final earlier that week. So I don't know if she was just laying down the law. I got divorced. I don't want this kid in my house either. Fuck off. Meaning Spencer, not Hannah, obviously. So August 4th is going to be a busy day for Barbara. August 4th, 2005. She's supposed to spend the morning at the Elkhart General Hospital.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And doing her job the afternoon, she was going to go house hunting with a friend. And in the evening, she had plans to get together with her sisters. So it's a full day here. Problem is, she doesn't show up for any of that shit. Oh, including picking her son up. Also, the next day, August 5th from her ex-husband, the ex.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So, yeah, no one has heard from her since 730 p.m. on August 3rd, basically, is what they figure out. She is described as five foot six inches, 150 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. And people at work report her missing because she doesn't she never doesn't show up. And then when they find out she hasn't shown up to anything else either. Not like Barbara at all.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And the cops are called and the Middlebury police said that they're looking into it and they weren't ruling anything out. They were investigating it as a missing person case. And as a matter of fact, no one can find Hannah either. She's also missing.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So they're like, oh, no, mother and daughter have been disappeared here. This isn't good. Friends and family. They like right away because it's a town of thirty five hundred people. The press is all over it right away. Friends and family are the next day posting flyers. It's, you know, her friend said that you just feel helpless. What more can you do? We're exhausted from lack of sleep.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's like two days later. He said she doesn't miss appointments. She's a responsible person. And yeah, so the investigation here on August 5th is so that's the day after she goes missing. August 3rd, she has a fight with Hannah. Hannah leaves August 4th. She has a lot of plans and goes missing. August 5th, the police are investigating.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
They're called to Barbara and Hannah's apartment to do a welfare check after one of Barbara's sisters called 911 to report that she didn't show up for work that day because work had called the sister to say, hey, you know where your sister is. So police look around the apartment. They don't have a search warrant or anything, so they can't really search, but they do a look around. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
A welfare check, you know, see if anybody's there. They find some cigarette butts in the living room, which they thought was odd because the sister said Barbara doesn't smoke and hates smoking and wouldn't let anyone smoke in her house.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's crazy. Oh, they're going to.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
No one does that. Out past about 1985. That's never happened.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Back in the day, we all had that like old uncle who was like 70 who no matter whose house they were in, he was allowed to smoke because he was smoking. I had one of those. You just get him an ashtray. He's lighting up. So you might as well get him an ashtray. So police didn't know if maybe they were the cigarette butts belong to Hannah or maybe some of her friends because no one's home at the time.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It's certainly a state and a place. People go, oh, yeah, Indiana. It does exist. There is stuff there, yeah. Middlebury, Indiana. Oh, the Middlebury. The Middlebury, which I've never heard of before. It's in northern Indiana. It's about an hour and 20 minutes away from Fort Wayne, if you want to go there for some reason.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So they don't know what's going on. They do see her wallet laying out on the table. Barbara's wallet. Her ID is still in there, but her credit card is missing along with some cash. But there's some cash there still, which is interesting. So they said that's odd. Why would you? Yeah. But they ruled that there's suspicious activity because of the cigarette butts. Yeah. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
By the way, I had somebody tag me and was like, when are you guys coming to Fort Wayne? And I was like, probably not ever. I'll be honest with you. Drive to Chicago.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I really want to check out Fort Wayne.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
One place I've never been that I'm just bucket list. Fort Wayne. This is about two hours to Marion, Indiana, which is our last Indiana episode, which was Beauty and the Beast. And that was a wild one, of course. Indiana, really. You guys bring it hard with weird murders, I'll say. This week is no exception. This is in Elkhart County. And the population here, 3,446. So this is a small town.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Thank you. Thank you. If this was like three mob guys taking another mob guy in like a silly movie, you'd be like, oh, that's funny. They take him out. Oh, no, back in. But it's not funny at all because this poor woman is bound and like, oh, help me, help me. And no one can help her.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Under 5,000 is a real small town. Median household income here, $78,813, which is above the national average. And the median home price here, which you wouldn't imagine. If I said middle of nowhere, hour and a half from Fort Wayne in Indiana, you'd be like, oh, the houses are free basically, right? They're probably $60,000. $313,100 is the median home price here. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Goodfellas is fucking hilarious. The Sopranos is hilarious. Yeah, it's hilarious. There's a lot of that shit. You know, in the right context, it's perfect here. So he goes back inside and had McDonald pull the van closer to the door so they could run out and throw her in there, basically, because they had a van, and then they come back and get her car as well.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So Hannah agreed to stay in the apartment in case the neighbors heard any of that shit and called the cops. She could be there to be like, I don't know what you're talking about. Everything's cool.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So they do that. Now Spencer drives the van with McDonald in the back, and they go to an ATM near the Concord Mall where Aaron withdraws $200 from Barbara's account. So they do all of that. They start driving again. Aaron McDonald said that I don't know where I didn't know where we were. It felt like we drove for hours.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Now, during this, by the way, Aaron is fucking basically, for whatever he says, terrorizing Barbara with saying shit to her, holding the gun to her head and. He's being an asshole. This is ridiculous. At one point, though, Aaron says that Spencer asked me for the gun. He got out and took Mrs. Kime out of the back seat. I got out and he was walking her into the cornfield. which is terrifying.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Now, when they got out in the middle of the field, what Spencer deemed far enough, basically, he stops Barbara, and he's got the gun holding it to the back of her head, and he tells her to recite the Lord's Prayer. which is just weird. Um, she was not doing it well, even though she's a church person, she's terrified and nothing is coming out really. So Aaron helps her finish it off.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I don't know what the draw is, but whatever. The motto here is grown from tradition. I don't know what they're growing, tomatoes, corn. I don't know what, but something. 1832, a little bit of the history here. 1832 was when the first settlers came here, and they were from Middlebury, Vermont.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Let me help you with that.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Helps her say the Lord's prayer, then turns around and goes back to the van. Okay. Spencer, when she finished said, you're not going to say amen. And so Barbara said, amen. And he shot her in the back of the head.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's how that worked.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yep. Spencer said he was fascinated by the way her body fell. Just, you know, with nothing under it like that. So he got back to the van and Aaron said he had no remorse at all. And you can tell that by his statement. Basically, Aaron said, quote, he said he was going to have sex with Hannah and Mrs. Kimes bed. He was going to sleep in her bed.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He's like, I'm going to go bang her daughter in her bed now. That's that's his fucking plan. So obviously not a lot of remorse there.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah. Well, no, they had some in the house, too. But then they went to a hotel.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah. Yeah. So Aaron said that Spencer said it felt good to take someone's soul.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yes. He said Spencer was talking crazy and even roared like a lion. He was trying to show off that, look how crazy I am. So they drove to a gas station, and they both bought cigarettes. They stopped at another ATM, but $200 limit on that one, babe, per day.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yep, couldn't get any more money. Big spender.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So they drove to a house they could get drugs at in Elkhart, and they bought some weed. And then they went to another gas station to buy some rolling papers. Then they drove back to Barbara's apartment to meet up with Hannah. We got cigarettes, weed, and rolling papers. It's party time.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Flush. So Spencer and Aaron, they drive back to meet up with Hannah. And Aaron said that they were going back so he could have sex in her bed and all that kind of shit. Once they got to the apartment, they got stoned and just chilled out and said that Hannah was giddy and excited. Hannah was in a happy mood and laughing. And she said, this is Aaron's quote.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
She told Spencer, don't you know you've got blood on your face? And they were laughing about it.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
With blood on his face. He's been going to stores and shit.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Didn't even go in the bathroom, wipe it off. And at one point, Hannah said, I love my mom's dead. Wow. So then Aaron went home the next morning. Spencer and Hannah woke him up and asked if he wanted to go out. He said no. So they went and did something. But Aaron said he wanted to do something.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He went back to that to Barbara's apartment and stole a check and wrote a check to himself for eight hundred dollars and cashed it. And that's how he's in this fucking mess. So, yeah. Now the cops are real happy with themselves over this.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah. Great police work. Law enforcement personnel made something happen and made it happen quickly. Really, from Friday to Sunday, a lot of manpower went into this case. They're like, man, they have like a woman who's like, oh, Jesus, I can't move after you. And they're like, yeah, I gave it to her good. Yeah, there she is. Yeah, that's right. And then they said another statement.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Normal people, we want to believe there's a reason or some rationale behind why these things occur. And it's hard to get caught up in that. Whatever reasons we determine won't be any reasons that anyone of any normal sensibility can justify. So the funeral, they have a big giant funeral. And, you know, it's a it's a big deal here, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
The preacher made sure to say to follow Barbara's example and learn to extend love without judgment.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
No matter who did this or what happens, you know, be fucking, you know, she wants you to be all Christian about it. So you should. Now, after his arrest, Spencer went back and forth here and he wrote a letter that he tried to send to Hannah in jail. But it was intercepted, of course. He said they were stupid to think they could get away with it. And at the end, he wrote, what we did was senseless.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And they chose this area because the rolling hills reminded them of Vermont.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He also wrote a giant thing to the judge, like a fucking book about why he did this and his thoughts and feelings. And just it's a diary, basically. And then he said, here you go. You guys have that.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He said at one point he said, if you're going to get caught and go to jail or prison, you might as well go for something big. Go big or go home.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Really. So he's going to go big and go to court is what he's going to do because he's in a lot of fucking trouble. He is the trigger person. He says it, admits it, and Aaron says it too. And the fact that he did it really coldly, there's a lot of call for the people who want the death penalty for this kid. So in order to avoid any of that, he's going to plead guilty to murder. Really?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So why not just stay in? If only we could just go to a place that's just like where we lived. Why don't you just stay in Vermont? Just go to Vermont. Go to Middlebury.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah, he's going to plead guilty. Now, there's a pre-sentencing, a two-week delay, so his attorneys could present a detailed mental health evaluation here. And the sentencing, this is what the doctor said, the psychiatrist. Dr. Yoder testified that Krempetz was manipulative, glorified his problems, and was deceptive during testing. So not a good guy at all is what he said.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
All the victims come in as well. All the victims, Barbara's family, you know, her sister said our beloved sister, aunt, mother and friend is gone forever, which is bad because the death penalty was not an option. We feel that life without parole is the only adequate sentence. Sure. They also said there's no words to describe the pain and grief they've caused many families, not just ours. And yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And then they talk about how little Timothy's not going to have his mom and all this type of shit. And that's horrible. So the judge here. has his writings as Spencer's writings. And Spencer requested that the judge read them in order to understand what was going on that way. That's, that's his like statement is I'm going to give you this whole manuscript and you can read it.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And that's my statement of why I shouldn't get life without parole. So, the judge says that in this, Spencer focuses on his girlfriend and complains, among other things, that she was the central wrongdoer in the commission of this offense. He also said that she was getting in the way of my affairs, Spencer said. What affairs do you have? You're an 18-year-old jerk-off. You have no affairs.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And he also said, I just wanted to kill. The money was just a bonus. What he said he's he's been fascinated with robbery and murder for a long time and he was into it. He described himself as a quote young man who is trying to do his girlfriend's bidding trying to make himself useful and probably trying to impress her that he could be counted on to do the tough things that she didn't want to do.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Let's go to an identical place and name it the same thing. That'll be fine, right?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So the judge said, at times you led a very lonely existence. You turned to drugs, alcohol, sexual activity, rebellion, perhaps to cope. You read a rather nomadic lifestyle. You claimed few friends. You were somewhat desperate for attention. Hannah Stone clearly filled a void in your life. You missed your family. She became your family. Taking a life seemed to fascinate you.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
You wanted to see what it was like. You wanted to know what it was like. At one point, the judge asked Spencer if he thought about backing out. And he said, but from your writings, it says, in your own words, you did think about backing out, but you, quote, fought it off, the way you put it. Yikes. Fought off the urge to be a fucking decent human being. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
You know, I thought about it for a while, but I was like, no, that's crazy. I considered it. Yeah. And then the judge says, talks about making her recite the prayer. OK. And he said, you wanted to know. And this is what Spencer wrote in his thing. You wanted to know if God would deliver Barbara from evil. You didn't think he would. Which, no.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
really weird here the first children born in middlebury were in 1835 so for three years nobody was it was a nobody did anything a chastened existence here in middlebury i guess we could fuck yeah i guess so it's probably all guys at first you know it's usually the settlers come in dudes at first here uh some of the first people here there was a guy who came a carpenter named squire lee who came in 1839 and he lived to be 100 years old allegedly wow
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
They also note the contrary to Spencer's claim that he acted under the domination of his girlfriend. The trial court recounted his statements where he said, among other things, this is nobody's fault but my own. Nobody twisted my arm. And I was only convinced that at the time it was the thing to do. And also to think we thought we could get away with it so stupid.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
These are all quotes from his writing to the judge, by the way. So he shouldn't have wrote that shit and then said something else in court because the judge is going to notice.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
They pick up on little things like that. It's kind of their job.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
All that shit. They say, you, sir, may fuck off. Life without parole for young Spencer.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Oh, my. Life without. 18 and life. You got it. That's it right there.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Fucking... He's like, I'm finally a Skid Row song. Yes.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
finally thank you sebastian bach for singing my anthem fucking a so um he's also sentenced to 65 years for conspiracy to commit murder and criminal confinement as well but that's on top of life without parole so he gives a shit he says he'll appeal here um yeah which i don't know how because he's um He admitted it. He does all that. Hannah wants a change of venue.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Citing, quote, public hostility against the defendant, intense publicity and public outrage over the offense. That's weird that people get mad when you kill your mom for no reason. Who's a nice lady who didn't do anything to anybody. Real strange.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
She argued she can't get a fair trial in the county because her mother was married to a police officer with the sheriff's department, even though they were divorced the week before. She said that's still going to fuck her. Good. Anyway, they say, no, you're good here. Let's just stick around. So Hannah is going to have to plead guilty as well.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I mean, both of her co-conspirators are putting her right there. You know, there's no way I'm going to defend it. Murder, conspiracy and criminal confinement here. The prosecuting attorney during sentencing said Timothy is a five year old boy who has strong memories of his mother. Tomorrow, those memories will fade and he won't be able to think of the wonderful memories he had of his mother.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Now, Hannah here said that, quote, I was to knock at the door of the apartment and Mr. Krepitz was, and her voice is trailing off. They had to tell her to speak up a couple of times. She said, and Spencer was going to, I don't know the word. He was going to get her. He taped her using duct tape. She said Aaron had the gun to threaten her to be quiet, to keep her from screaming.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And she said then Spencer tied her up or taped her up. And she said from that point on, they I don't know what order they were going to a bank or to the cornfield. I don't know. That's what she said. Well, the judge says there is something I know, and that is you, young lady.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
may fuck off yeah okay 55 years in prison for the murder of the mother sure 30 years for conspiracy to commit murder and 15 years for criminal confinement while armed with a deadly weapon to be run consecutively oh jesus not concurrently 100 years for hannah A hundred years. She will be eligible for parole in 2053 at the age of 65.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So she's going to go in basically never living an adult life outside of prison. She goes in at 17 and comes out a senior citizen. Think about that.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Never like just, I'm an adult. 17 to 65.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
She's never paid anything. I guess not, but I don't know. I don't know what the system, I don't know the rules of social security are.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
They got to give her something.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I don't know how that goes. They also ruled, in addition to 100 years, she's to have no contact with her five-year-old brother as well.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah. Aaron also pleads guilty. We kind of knew that was coming here. The family really goes hard on him, too, which is understandable.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Who knows if that's true or not. I don't know how great the birth records were in the 1730s or whatever. So we have no idea here. So they eventually got a railroad, which was helpful. And then they started to become like a manufacturing center as well. They had a bunch of different manufacturing centers came in here. By 1839, there was only 12 families living here. So that's it.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
But I mean, Aaron is the reason why all these people got caught. You know what I mean? So you'd think they'd be a little bit easier on him, but I guess not.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah, he's a fucking dummy. So they said that they have to deal with their kids asking, where's my aunt? And her kids asking, or her son asking, where the fuck... Where she is, the judge said, or I'm sorry, the family said, the prosecutor, Jesus, the whole community is in shock. I think we all are at what such young people had in their minds.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It affects the whole community and puts a certain fear in everyone. Yeah. They bring in Robert, the ex-husband here, and he says, Timothy will never have the mother that every child should have. Nobody could replace that. I just can't fathom why anybody would want to do such a heinous crime in our community. Our community needs to be safe from people like Mr. McDonald.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He was easily manipulated into a scheme that could have been stopped. He could have easily walked away. He went and got the gun. Aaron said, quote, is there anything to say for yourself? He said, quote, I had money on my mind. My mind on my money and my money on my mind is what he had.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I just wanted to get my money so I could get more dope, cocaine and marijuana, he said. He read a statement to the family and said to, quote, find it in your hearts to forgive me for the senseless act I was involved in. I would do anything to bring her back. I'm not a murderer. I'm not a bad kid.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He said, I would do anything, including my I would give anything, including my own life to turn back the clock. I'm not a bad person. I'm a kid who is at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people. If I hadn't walked out of that cornfield when I did, I would have been dead, too, which I don't think so. I don't think at all. Spencer was going to kill him. No, their hero.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's what I'm saying here. Now, the prosecutor said he was he was at the wrong place at the wrong time holding the gun is what the prosecutor said. Bullshit. They said also the judge says you could have called it all off. The reason you chose not to do so. Greed. That's it. He said it's hard for you. It's hard to see you as the victim.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He said all the families involved in the murder lost people, but the difference is your family can come visit you in a Department of Corrections, and that's not the case with their family. You ended up with $900. You were part of that conspiracy. You did it for financial gain. Life is not that cheap. You, sir, may fuck off 62 years in prison.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I guess his max that he could have gotten was 65, but leading the police to the body is what took three years off.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Wow. That's not a lot of credit for that, I don't think. Okay. Now, 2006. Everybody's in prison. An item is on eBay. Okay. An auction closes without a bid. But according to the Elkhart County Sheriff's Department, the seller was a teenager and it was county property he was trying to sell. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
OK, now they said that eBay is the one that closed the auction down because they didn't know about ownership. An anonymous tip to the sheriff's department website led them to the auction page advertising Elkhart County jail pants worn by the cornfield killer.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Said, I have Spencer's pants. The cornfield killer and the preacher's daughter. That's some couple. So the police concluded the cornfield killer referred to Spencer, who was convicted, obviously, of that. So police didn't have to work hard to find the person. He listed his name and address in the fucking listing.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Jesus Christ. The teen noted he was unable to receive electronic payments, so the winning bidder had to send a check or money order to this address with this name.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Wow. It was, I guess, started at $30, and the buy it now price was $500.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Fucking ridiculous. Now, they checked the records, and they said that he had been in jail during the time Spencer was there, but they'd never stayed in the same ward and would not have had contact. This guy just got an idea. I got pants. He's over there. They probably just stole them. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Never really grew that much. But then in 1841, the first Amish families came to the camp from Pennsylvania and settled around town. This is known as like an Amish area. Watch out. It's super Amish around here is what people say. You never know. It was incorporated as a town in 1868. So reviews of this town, because we've never been there. We don't know. Here's one. Five stars.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
They went to his house. He claimed he received the pants from the county work release center and didn't know he was supposed to return the pants or pay for them. He goes, I just thought they were my pants. I figured I'd get some idiot to buy them. He promised to return the clothes, but then he didn't, and they arrested him.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Don't worry. James. James Wright is his name of 250 East Bristol Street. He's 18 years old and a fucking dummy. That's amazing. That is fucking hilarious. Apparently, the jury deliberated for 20 minutes, and that was that. He got convicted of that.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Now, Spencer's going to appeal saying that his main appeal is that he shouldn't get life without parole because the robbery is separate from the murder. He says that this is amazing because it has to be. Wow. He says the robbery has been completed, had been completed in a sufficient amount of time before the murder took place. So the act of murder is outside the course of robbery.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Well, if you held one of the tellers hostage and then murdered them, then yes. If there's someone separate, no.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So they said, we do not agree with the defendant's narrow interpretation of the word while.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
You were on the way to kill her. So you stop. That's in the same fucking thing.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It was an hour later. It was in the same act.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah. Fuck. There's also an intentional killing while lying in wait aggravator, the hiding and all that kind of shit. They said also, he said they didn't properly weigh his mitigating factors of his, you know, a lack of adult criminal convictions, been molested and all that kind of shit. and also that he has an impaired mental condition.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And they said, well, his mental state at the time couldn't be determined. He wouldn't cooperate with psychiatrists. There's no evidence he's of an inferior intellect. As a matter of fact, he's actually smart. He's unhampered by debilitating mental conditions. Seems fine. Yeah, that's it. I remember we said he was deceptive and glorified his problems and all that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
They said, keep on keeping on dickhead life without honestly, Hannah appeals as well. She says about mitigating factors saying she was only 18 and didn't have much of a criminal record, even though she was on probation for something small. It looks bad. Yeah. The court also notes as an aggravating circumstance that she committed the offense while under the influence of smoking marijuana.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
which i don't think really matters but that's fine um so anyway uh also that um the because the judge had knows her father and had met her father at something in the conflict of interest all of these people know each other her father knows everybody in this courtroom because he's a cop so he knows lawyers and judges yeah so they said that's a conflict of interest but they they
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It turns out they said it's not a conflict of interest in the end. Aaron appeals as well. I don't know what the hell he's talking about. His is just the sentence. He said it was too harsh because he improperly considered aggravating and mitigating factors because it did not fit the nature of the crime and his character. They said, you sound like a dickhead. Fuck you.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
But I don't like this.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I only got $900. This isn't worth it. So that's what happens there. January 18th, 2015, Spencer kills himself in prison at age 28.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
The only way it's going to go down. You knew that was going to happen. You knew it. You're not getting the attention you want and all that shit in prison. You'll just get the shit beat out of you for that. Nobody cares.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Middlebury is the quintessential Norman Rockwell community, which that says a lot. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And this sucks. Yeah. And so he is dead at prison in prison. July 23rd, 2020. Aaron McDonald dies in prison.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah. In his early 30s, like 32 years old.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
No cause revealed here. We don't know. 23rd, 2020. It might have been COVID for Christ's sake. We have no idea. It was all lockdowns and prisons at that point. There was all sorts of diseases fucking flying through that shit.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay!
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Now, Hannah, she's still alive and doing interviews. They're doing interviews about the preacher's daughter in prison and how she's in all these programs and how she's so much better now.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I need to get out. Oh, yeah. There's all these articles. She's in some documentary. In an interview with Investigation Discovery, she said she'd do anything to go back and change what happened. She says her father is her only visitor ever.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Only none of the family will talk to her. Her DOC number is 152679, and she is at the Indiana Women's Prison. And August 31st, 2053 is her earliest release date. Barbara is buried at the Prairie Street Cemetery in Elkhart. That is where she's buried. And that, everybody. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
All right. Yeah. 1940s, whatever. It's safe, friendly, and caring. the children play happily outside on warm days families ride and stroll along the pumpkin vine bike trail and being only an hour to an hour and a half from chicago you can easily do day trips to a major city on a whim without living with all the crime and filth
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I don't think she ever got out of Indiana. That's it. Just from the time. It's just wild that from 17 to 65, you would be like, well.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I was a minor. Now I'm a senior citizen. Okay. I'm coming out. It's just so strange.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That's crazy. Crazy shit. So there you go, everybody. If you like that show, please get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars. It helps tremendously, helps drive the show up the charts. Follow us on social media. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Murder Small on, no, yeah, at Small Town Pod on Facebook.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
uh find that there you definitely want to go to shut up and give me murder.com right now get your tickets for live shows february 7th pittsburgh you're up first columbus sold out the next night shows are selling out in november december get your tickets right now if you want them shut up and give me murder.com patreon.com slash crime and sports all the bonus material anybody five dollars or above you get it all this week what you're gonna get for crime and sports what you get we're gonna talk about kobe bryant's rape case
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
What happened? We'll find out. Then for Small Town Murder, internet salad, baby. Hey. A peek behind the curtain at what we do before we start, which is crack each other up laughing, making fun of shit that's going on in the world. No fucking politics, just funny shit and other shit that's going on. So check all that out. And more, patreon.com slash crime and sports.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
You get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well. There you go. You want to follow us on social media, head to the site, shut up and give me murder.com. Drop down menus will take you anywhere you want to go. Whew. Until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. See you in Pittsburgh.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So apparently Chicago is only an hour. So it's commutable to Chicago if you want to take a drive. So that's something I guess that would make a sense. That would make a sense. I just Hawaii said it like that. That would make a sense. Five stars. Middlebury is a wonderful small town rich with Amish and Mennonite history.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Amish and English live, work, eat, and socialize together in all of our school functions, restaurants, and churches. They said Amish and English in like the 1700s when it was just English people here. Right. We're not all English now. That's weird to say, the Amish and English. Finally, one star, the town I live in, only... The town I live in have only two parks that are seldomly used.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another absolutely wild edition of Small Town Murder Express. As you people know, this is 10 pounds of murder in a two-pound bag, and we have... A lot to jam in today.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Have only two parks that are seldomly used. People generally go out to the nearby towns to find things to do and how to entertain themselves. Yeah. So there's that. And then things to do here in this town. The Middlebury Summer Festival. Hmm. It's a big deal here, boy. This is the 56th coming this year. Oh, shit. It's been going on a long time since 1949. Steeped in history.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Gather your family to reconnect with old friends and make new ones while enjoying live bluegrass and gospel music. delicious festival fair, artisan crafts, children's activities, and much more. They have the largest small town parade in our area. That's what they claim. The largest small town parade in our town.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Free entertainment and live music, which we'll talk about in a moment here. And The Run is back with five exclamation points. That must have been really clamoring for that one.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
They've been just chomping at the bit for that shit. And then a summer festival three-on-three basketball tournament on Saturday as well. So you got that. Now, the bands here and different activities here. You have Starving Artist, which is a band. And I bet they are, too. Probably starving.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
No, especially from their coveted 12 p.m. Friday slot that they got. I really feel like that's an opener. $50 for the whole band? All right. That's one of those. Keith Miller will be there. Yeah. Okay. Steve Miller's little brother. Yeah, he's just going to sing Jet Airplane over and over again. Buddy Pearson will be here. Yeah. Who sounds like a 50s comedian. Doesn't it? The Buddy Pearson Show.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah, it's a 50s guy. Marty Miles. They're just singular named people.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
But they're singing bluegrass and gospel. The barrel scrappers are going to play after that, but they're going to have to compete with the tractor pull, which is going on at the same time.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Good luck, assholes.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
There's also a fishing tournament, which makes me think of Funny Farm every time. You're just beating the shit out of him. You're beating the piss out of him. That's what it was. You're not knocking him out. You're just beating the piss out of him. Pancake and sausage breakfast. We got the three-on-three thing. Cornhole tournament, of course.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Let's see. And free face painting, of course, with artist Linda Pieri. So there you go. That's what they got going on there. Yeah. That said, let's talk about some murder, shall we? You want to talk about murder?
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
bluegrass gospel music anymore come on jimmy jesus christ be a sport what are we doing here all right let's go back in time a little bit 20 years 2005 we're gonna go back to so you know pretty similar to today yeah cell phone in your hand not doing as much though just you're still you're real excited it's taking pictures at this point jacked about that
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It's a crazy story with a real weird, kind of like a weird, like almost one of the characters is like a West Memphis Three character, almost. We'll talk all about it. But before we get to that, definitely head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Tickets for live shows. If you're listening to this early, then get your butt to Pittsburgh, February 7th. That is our first show of the live tour.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
This is not the internet. So dumb, no. If you want to check your email, you can do it in about an hour and a half. So there's that while you wait for it to load. So this one, 2005, let's start by talking about a lady here. Barbara Jo Neff is her. That's where she was born. Later on, she'll be Keim, K-E-I-M.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Keim, or Keem, however you want to do it. I'm sure it's Keim. Keim. Barbara here, she's 41 years old in 2005, so she's born in 64. She's from this area. She's from Elkhart County, lived here her whole life.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
She has one brother and four sisters, so she's one of six kids. That's a lot. Wow. Wow. That's a lot. Real close with her sisters as well, as I would imagine. Five sisters, probably.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
There's five sisters and one brother. Oh, my. That poor bastard. Man, how many times has he been made over? He's like, oh, God.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
He could probably do makeup better than Trixie Mattel, though, I bet this guy. He's been made up quite a bit.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
For sure. So people always say about Barbara, she is a nurturer and a very nice, caring woman, which makes sense because she eventually goes into a career in nursing, which those two things kind of go hand in hand. You can't be like, I just hate people, but I want to be a nurse. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
I just hate being at their beck and call and helping them and shit. I just don't like it. So, yeah, she ends up becoming a nurse at the general hospital in the maternity department in Elkhart County. So she's a maternity nurse. So that's, you know. That's tough. That's tough. And it's nice because there's a lot of joy in that, too.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
And it's quick turnover.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Get the fuck out. Unless it's something complicated, most of the deliveries are probably joyous occasions.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
If it lives, yeah. If everybody lives, it's great.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
It's dark. My first daughter, neonatal intensive care unit for a while. If it lives, we will be happy. That's what it feels like. So 1986, she meets a man named Alex Stone. Now, Alex Stone is a Methodist. And in various articles, they call him a Methodist preacher, pastor and priest, which I don't know what Methodists have. But he's the guy in the front telling you what Jesus did.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Let's just say that much.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Yeah. We'll talk about her in a little bit here. So, 1991, she divorces Alex, the first husband, Alex Stone. Barbara and him get a divorce. A couple years later, she's going to marry a man named Robert Keim. That's how she got the Keim. And they're going to have a son as well. In about the year 2000, they're going to have a little boy named Timothy.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
So, yeah, they're going to she's got the two kids from separate marriages. And she's also very big in a church, Barbara. She likes to go to church and she's she's a very small town, Indiana. I mean, nurse, you know, she's very nice. She hasn't lived in Middlebury very long, which has been around Elkhart County here. But everyone knows her as a nice person.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Next night in Columbus is all sold out. So Pittsburgh is the spot to go.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Everyone thinks she's a sweetheart, basically. Everyone at the hospital loves her, thinks she's great. She's everybody wants to work with her.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
um so 1996 is when she is ends up marrying robert okay now hannah the daughter doesn't like robert no no absolutely not they don't get along apparently a lot um not sure why but and she's like eight years old at the time they get together well yep that's why But it's tough. Yeah. So they don't get along. And that causes a lot of strife in the household and things like that.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Get your tickets for the rest of the year, too, because they're selling out fast. Chicago, St. Louis, Portland is sold out in November. So, I mean, it's crazy. Seattle, Philly, D.C. at the end of the year. They're selling fast. If you want to go to these shows, get your tickets right now. Make some plans and do that. Shut up and give me murder.com.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Robert was a deputy sheriff with the Elkhart County Sheriff's Office. And he apparently was very strict and stern and very strict and stern with Hannah, who was not used to that. And if you start imposing that on an eight year old girl who hasn't had that, it's going to be some issues there.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
That is tough, man. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Catches them. Yeah. He's on the side of the road. You're driving too fast. Jesus. Calm down.
Small Town Murder
#568 - Preacher's Daughter & The Soul Stealer - Middlebury, Indiana
Jesus. So 2000 is when the little boy Timothy is born. And Hannah loves her little brother, by the way. She holds no acrimony toward the little brother for being like a relation, a product of a relationship. She's not crazy about. So but she would always tell her friends that Barbara loved her little brother more than she loved her. So that was a thing she was known for saying all the time.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Not bad for a three-people family. It was sold in 2022 for $316,500. Wow. Not bad. Affordable. Not bad down there. And this is a neighbor of hers says, Kay is just a wonderful, wonderful person. She, her husband, and Dave, who recently retired from the Army, really live for their son, Derek. I can tell you those three did everything together. Derek is their pride and joy.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
so it's just a very family oriented family that's all they're they just got the one kid huh that's it the one kid that's it that's not bad at all as i say especially her coming from a family of seven i feel like that's on purpose probably that's we're having one kid period i'm not having 12 kids running around my goddamn house he's gonna he's gonna want for a big family later
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's awesome. Yeah, it's great. I never had a problem with it. It was fine. Oh, great. So a neighbor of theirs recalled vacationing with the Parsons in Panama City, Florida, which I don't know if I'd call that a vacation so much as just... Well, it depends on when you go.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I think Panama City, Florida, really, at any time of year, is really not anywhere I'd want to be personally. Yeah, I get it. I don't want to hang out there. It...
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's what matters. That's mainly it. You can't just say, I'm going to cut that out for a month and then go back. Can't do it. That's not what it is. Bet you don't. So I'm glad it's helping you. That's great. And it really does. I like the psychology and biology-based approach here. Noom weight uses psychology.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yeah, if you're trash, yeah, sure. I'm going to say that, period.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's awful. That sounds horrible, yeah. This guy says, Kay's an adventurer. We were on jet skis and a boat came by us and really stirred up the water. And she said, I can handle this because I'm used to riding motorcycles with Dave and Derek.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
wow um yeah and uh in the end though she got knocked over and she laughed about it and said maybe i bit off a little more than i can chew yeah so she's not dramatic or anything like that there's no any of that stuff this guy's not much worse than somebody that has no sense of humor about falling off a jet yeah they're oh jesus christ yeah you have to enjoy yourself when you do that
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's like if you're riding a sled down a snowy hill. You're going to fall eventually. You'll tumble in the snow and you'll laugh your ass off. That's the point of it. You don't go, God damn it. I wanted that to be perfect.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I'm a professional jet ski rider. This is ridiculous.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He said, oh, we laughed about that. And she could hit a softball far, too. She really loved going to all of Derek's baseball games, and he was there, and he was in three or four different leagues. She had a great sense of humor. That's a nightmare. This kid plays sports for four different kids, basically. That's terrible.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Oh, shit. So Thursday, March 25th, 2009 comes around here. Kay's 41 years old. She drops Derek off at school. He's 12. Drops him off at school. She gets back home, and it's a little bit before 9 a.m. when she is seen going home. Now, there was a contractor who was doing some work on the house. Her husband's a contractor, so I don't know how that works, but okay. A different contractor.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Maybe, yeah. He came to do some work, and when he shows up at 845, he finds the back glass door. They have French doors in the back, and the glass door is broken back there.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So he says, oh, shit. So he looks kind of looks his head in the house a little bit and sees some blood spattered around and seeing that the house looked like it was in a state of disarray that it didn't look like the last time he was there.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's why they say losing weight starts with your brain, but it also takes into account your body. Unique biological factors, Jimmy. All of your multitude flora and fauna that goes on inside of you there. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology-based approach. Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com. Noom.com. N-O-O-M-O-M. dot com here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He does not go in there. He calls the police here. He steps outside, calls the police. He goes, hey, I might be a contractor, but I can't put that back together. So.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I don't have any any any way to fix that. So when a deputy entered, he found what appeared to be blood on the sofa and the living room rug here at Kay's house. They also found blood on the walls and the doors. There's a lot of blood around, which it's a lot. It's a lot. So they're very, you know, a little bit freaked out by that. Now they end up finding her clinging to life on the garage floor.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
She is alive, but severely beaten about the head and needs blood horribly. Yeah, there's blood everywhere. One of the police officers said she was must have been confronted by the suspect and was attacked and seriously injured. She'd been beaten very severely. She'd been struck numerous times.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's the only thing we could think is obviously this started in the house. So that's the that's the thing here. And as we we go through this, it looks like she interrupted a burglary. That's what it looks like happened. Look like she came home in the middle of a burglary here. She's taken to a doctor's hospital, then to the Medical College of Georgia Hospital.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And, yeah, during this, she clings to life for almost a whole day before she eventually dies. So from her wounds. Now, the the police investigating the house here is now it's not just a burglary and an assault. This is a murder now. So, you know, a little bit different investigation.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yeah, they find a blood trail from the that leads to the garage. So they're like, OK, that's they're trying to find out, you know, put it together of how it happened. They say that she was robbed and a gold necklace and watch were taken off her body as well.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yeah, I mean, a watch is pretty traceable, too. Yeah, yeah. So nearby, right outside, they find a baseball bat and a claw hammer, both with blood and hair.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yeah, these are brutal weapons. That's like, this baseball bat isn't enough. I'm going to grab this hammer quick and make it worse type of shit.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
A claw hammer. I don't know which side of the claw hammer, but Jesus Christ. I don't want to know, I don't think. So she ends up dying later that afternoon. Head trauma is the cause of death here. Multiple beating. I mean, just she's been beaten so many times. They don't know how many blows that she's been given, even on the head.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So then while this is going on, they find out that the home next door at 227 Hot Springs Drive was also burglarized. So now they have two burglaries right next door and a dead woman.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So the police officer at this point says this is the lead detective. We're following some leads. We have our suspicions, but we're nowhere near solving this case. They don't know what's going on. So what's up with next door? We'll find out here. Love to know. Who lives there is a couple named Rebecca, who goes by Becky.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Becky Bowers is what she originally was, and then she got married because she doesn't like the alliteration. It's like, I can't be Becky Bowers. That sounds like the most annoying person who's ever lived. So I'm going to get married to a guy named Sears, S-E-A-R-S, like the store, like the defunct store here. This is Tony Sears, he goes by. So that's her husband.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Becky is good friends also with Kay. They're tight. The families are tight. They're tight. They live next door. She's born the same year as Kay. So she I can't quite lock down how many kids these people have up to five sons, at least three and as many as five. Okay. She has two older sons from a previous marriage, and she also has younger sons that are 2, 5, and 13 as well.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So she has like a 21-year-old, a 19-year-old, and then the couple themselves have a 2, a 5, and a 13-year-old. So that is a lot. Jesus. Now the 13-year-old and next door Kay's 12-year-old played on the same baseball teams together all the time. Of course they did. So these parents know each other very well. You know the sports parents well, especially if you live next door.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They carpool to travel games and all that kind of shit. And in addition to living next door and having sons that play together and having barbecues together and all that shit, they actually work together as well, these women.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yes. You got to really not be sick of somebody for that shit. Like you have to like somebody. They both work at the Healing Hands Physical Therapy Center as well.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They both help with like occupational therapy type shit. That's 227 Hot Springs Drive. Very close friends, though, these two. And even the couples... Like the Tony and Derek there, the husband, David, they would play on mixed doubles and tennis together and shit. That's too much spending time with your neighbor. That's a lot of time with your neighbor.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
No matter how cool my neighbor is, I want to distance myself a little bit from them because you can't get away from them. That's the problem.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
No. So these people are diving in, though. Now, the sons, Becky's sons here. Christopher is the is a 19 year old son. It's I believe her second son from the previous marriage. He lived in a place of his own, but spends a lot of time with his mother at this house. He's there all the time for some reason. I mean, very close to her, but he's 19, too.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He should probably be doing other things, you know. So now Rebecca's older son, the oldest one, Michael, lived at the house. I believe he's like 21 or something. Rebecca got Christopher, the 19-year-old, a part-time job at the physical therapy clinic where she and Kay worked as well. So everybody works there.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Now, both homes appeared to have been broken into, and they believe that Kay interrupted a burglary, that Becky was just lucky enough to not come home in the middle of here. Now, Becky and Christopher, her son, were both present when the deputies got to Kay's home that morning. So they were both there. Becky actually followed a deputy into the house.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
But once they saw blood, they escorted her out of the house.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
No, because she was like, I want to see if my friends. OK, I want to go in there. And they saw blood and they're like, oh, now it's a crime scene. You got to back the fuck out here. Now, they shouldn't have let her in. Before, because it was still a crime scene. If it was a burglary, that's a crime scene. You can't be letting people wander around and touch shit.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
But anyway, she is escorted out at that point. She tells deputies then that her home's been broken into. Also, they said they found her home ransacked, but they couldn't find a sign of forced entry there. There was no broken back door. So she might have had an open window or a door that she didn't lock or some shit like that. So. Obviously, this looks like a targeted attack on this neighborhood.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
If you live in this neighborhood, it's not just one house. It's two houses. This is scary. You know what I mean? These people are freaking out. People say this. Here's a quote from a neighbor. Quote, you move to a neighborhood because it's supposed to be a nice, safe place to live, and then something like this happens. Something like this. Something like this. That's right.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Then there's a guy, one of the neighbors, who's a former army sergeant who served multiple tours in Afghanistan. He said, I'm not afraid. As I said, are you afraid this could happen to you? And he said, not at all.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He said, I'm just going to improve access to my weapons. That's what he said.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I'm just going to place more weapons around my house and live.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Jesus. I'm going to live like I'm under a state of siege all the time now. That's all. That'll be better. Good Lord. One lady who lived here for eight years said she's never heard of a break-in in this neighborhood before. This is crazy. Not one. She said, we watch out for each other here. So, you know, we're nosy. We stare out the window and write license plate numbers down and shit like that.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's weird. So the police, what they do right away is after, you know, that day, they don't know shit. They have no leads. They actually put out a please help us to the to the public, which is not real confidence inducing. The fact that this is less than 24 hours old and they've already gone, well, we've done all we can do. I don't know. You guys got any ideas? How scary is that?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So they say they need help solving this death. The captain here says he hopes someone was watching. And he says, I hope someone was looking out the window for this.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They said someone knows something concerning this crime. Although we have some leads, we need some help. This person has clearly demonstrated just how dangerous they are. We're utilizing every available resource and manpower and technology to locate this individual. And we're still asking you for help. Hey, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
We still don't have a goddamn idea what we're doing, but if you have one, let us know. This is one of the saddest, if not the saddest case we've investigated in a long, long time. So, okay. Now...
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
that is the one day so that goes by the next afternoon happens okay yeah next afternoon becky sears the next door neighbor yep okay she's leaving the healing hands physical therapy center where she works the next day she still went to work people are breaking into neighbor breaking into your houses in your neighborhood killing your friends and co-workers and you still go to work the next day though i got work to do you're not calling in i got i got shit to heal
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
She's walking to her vehicle talking on the phone after her shift, right? Walking out toward the parking lot when she said a man jumped out of a bush from the rear of the building and brandished a pistol at her.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Okay. She turned to go back inside when the guy shot at her. Okay. And she later on said the man told her that if she didn't have his money, it would be her face, which I've never heard that one before. I've heard it'll be your ass, but not your face. I mean, that's worse, honestly. Yeah. You can't see your ass. You got to show your face all the time.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Hey everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about Shutterfly. If you're like us, you take a lot of pictures because you have a camera right in your hand all the time. How would you not take a lot of pictures? And we're taking all these pictures more than we've ever taken in the history of the world. What are you going to do with them all?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's it. If he didn't have his money. So that's when she turned around and ran. And she's on the phone, by the way. So someone else hears this. And here's a gunshot. And the gunshot actually grazes both of her legs. He did shoot. This person shot at her. And the gunshot grazed both legs. It must have gone on the inside of it, I assume. Or if she was turned sideways. Maybe sideways at the front.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station. Here we go. We have another crazy story, as always. I don't even have to say it anymore. It's Small Town Murder. It's nuts. You'll get it.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Wow. Whatever it was, but it grazed both legs, but didn't actually, not a hardcore bullet wound here. Then the man ran off toward the woods. One shot and he took off. The police find a .22 caliber shell casing at the scene when they get there. The sergeant commented about Becky, quote, she wasn't real happy about getting shot. Well, no shit. Really? Most people are. That's interesting.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So she is treated for her wound. Here now, man, that's that's fucking wild. She both women, by the way. So now two women from the Healing Hands Physical Therapy Center have been attacked in successive days.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
If you have that. By the way, anybody know how to get someone to admit to some stuff they don't want to admit to? Anybody? Because if you do, we're open for any ideas you got. It's hard.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I mean, that's complicated. I don't know. I don't know if we have the facilities to process that. But if you can just get someone to not lie, if you can do that, is that possible? If only they had a machine that could tell us if they were lying. Does anybody know anything about that?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So the sheriff here, the captain, the captain of the Columbia County sheriffs here, he said that he knows of no link between these two crimes, by the way, the shooting and the killing in successive days.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yeah, doesn't know of any link between them. I would say this has to be just the unluckiest fucking group of neighbors that's ever lived if there is no link here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They said, we've been in contact with Richmond County authorities concerning that matter, but there's no evidence to suggest a link, is what they said. Now, at the hospital, apparently, where Becky goes there, she demands to know Kay's condition. Demands to know Kay's condition. Like, really... Forcefully. Forcefully, which they're like, what the hell is wrong with this fucking deal here?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
This is very strange. Becky had visited... Kay the day before, before she died, because the shooting happened on Thursday. And she I guess she wasn't even conscious at the time, but she visited her. Now, apparently here, that's when after Thursday, the next day comes. And now all of a sudden they have a confidential informant. The police come out and say, really? Yes.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
A confidential informant that says this is a this is according to the search warrant that is written in the affidavit. A confidential informant advised he believed Rebecca Sears was responsible or involved in the murder of Mrs. Parsons. So now they're saying Becky over here killed Kay. That's what the confidential informant.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So quickly before we start, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Tickets for live shows are available for 2025 right now. There's only one city that is not available. That's because we haven't announced it yet.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They said the confidential informant also stated that on more than one occasion, Mrs. Sears asked him to kill Mrs. Parsons. The confidential informant stated Mrs. Sears asked her sons, Christopher Bowers and Michael Bowers, to murder Mrs. Parsons.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Kids, gather round. Yeah. Holy shit. They said, well, why the fuck would the... What? This doesn't make sense. Were they winning mixed doubles too much? Like, what are we talking about here? Why would this happen? Then they said the confidential informant said that, quote, he had personal knowledge of Mrs. Sears being involved in a romantic relationship with David Parsons.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Oh, Becky is fucking David. That's the problem. Unbelievable. That is a Becky's pork and Parsons over here. Not good.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That is fucking crazy. He said, quote, this is the we'll find out right now who the confidential informant is. Quote, his mother showed him text messages on her phone that made it clear she was having an affair with someone. His mother made it clear to Michael that she wished she knew someone who would kill someone for her.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Her husband was deployed in Afghanistan at the time. Parsons? No, Becky's husband, Tony Sears.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
She's fucking the next door neighbor here. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And apparently Becky wanted Kay out of the way to have a better relationship with her husband, with Kay's husband. So apparently this affair had gone on. She said it ended in February 2009, which is the month before this. But authorities examined her phone records and found that the two still exchanged text messages, exchanging and professing their love for each other. So it didn't end.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So they said that is a good motive right there. So they arrest Christopher Sean Bowers first. He is her 19-year-old son. And he's got a real, like a minor police record. He was charged with marijuana possession in 2008 and driving under the influence of drugs and other traffic-related offenses.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
We'll tell you. It'll be about two weeks, I think, before you find that out.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
But nothing that would suggest breaking into a fucking woman's house and murdering her in her living room.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
brutally beating her to death in her living room that's a really that's a really fucking like rugged way to do that with a ball bat and a hammer that's fucked for for for murder one that's your first crazy that's i mean i i would assume shooting is the would be the easiest you can get a little distance you don't have to like and feel it on you i would assume if you're you know
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's going to be awesome. It's going to be fun. We can't wait. We've never been there before either, so it's going to be real, real exciting. Can't wait. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Pittsburgh, you are up first. February 7th, I believe. Super Bowl weekend. It's the Friday of that weekend. Get your asses in there. I beat the flu for this. Let's go. Let's do it.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
You can run away. You got to beat a woman over the head 30 times with a bat and a hammer. That is real personal and real gross. And you got to have a special kind of stomach for that shit.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Well, they said the prosecutors say that the gunshot wound to Becky Sears was later discovered to have also been inflicted by Christopher.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
No, he's not upset at all. That's the fucked up part.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
what now they first looked at michael because they said michael had a bad drug problem and he lied to the police regarding his whereabouts around the time of the murder because he was off doing drugs and he didn't want to say that so he lied and said something else but they quickly ruled it out as more information came out that it was clearly rebecca and christopher that were doing that now becky's shooting okay they now think this was staged as a cover-up
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
for this she took a bullet for this well it was she wasn't supposed to take a bullet that's the point it got fucked up that's what's amazing uh apparently she planned to have her son threaten her with a gun while she was on the phone with someone so someone can hear it so it looked like there was a crazy stalker on the loose but at the time apparently the son fucking no one knows why if he did it by accident or what but he let a shot off
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
When he was not supposed to at all. He was supposed to go, give me your money or it's your face. And then she was going to go, ah, and turn around and run. And then he was going to run into the woods. That was the plan. And instead she's laying on the ground going, why do my legs hurt? What the fuck just happened? This is fucked up.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So, yeah, this is how they... The great part is how they figured this out. This is actually pretty goddamn good police work, I gotta say. And this show, it is honestly kind of rare. Incredibly rare. Most of the time, it's like, how do you fuck that up? Well, this time, they actually were pretty smart here. This is how they got to Christopher to get Christopher to admit all this.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Apparently, the Channel 12 news... people had interviewed Becky Sears in a report about car insurance just a few months before the murder. Just doing a man on the street interviews.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
This was at a gas station. She's seen filling up a white Ford F-250 truck. which is the same truck they found parked at Christopher's home after the murder.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's the Oakland Carnegie Hall, by the way, not the Munn Hall one that we did last time. So check that out for sure. Also, get yourself Patreon. Treat yourself this holiday season with Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So they connected it that way, and the crime scene analysts found blood on the driver's side door, the parking brake, and the seat as well. So that's how they figured it out. So search warrants built up a little timeline for what happened here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I guess Christopher hid in a room in her house, and then he went into the backyard and waited for – this is in Becky's house – waited for Mrs. Parsons to leave, then used a hammer to break in the back door, went upstairs, took a couple of things, but mainly just staged a burglary. Sure.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And then according to everything here, Becky went on to say that Christopher told her, I guess when Christopher was done, he told his mom that he beat the fuck out of her. And after the murder, Christopher, quote, went back to her house and entered through the back door and staged a burglary at her house and then left. So Rebecca stated Christopher called her and told her to pick him up.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And when she did, he had blood on his face and he said he took care of everything and beat the fuck out of her. So this is basically he ran out of the house to a different street, not right in front of the house. And Rebecca picked him up in the in the 250 F250 and got blood all over it. That's how it happened.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So Rebecca stated that Christopher changed his clothes in the car and placed his bloody clothes in a backpack. And then they said the cop said the blood trail suggests that Kay fled from Christopher into the garage where she was ultimately murdered by blows from the claw hammer.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Jesus, the bat wasn't doing it. He hit her a couple times with the bat and she ran away. So he said, well, I guess the hammer is the way to do it here. Oh, no. And Rebecca's other son, Michael, told police that his mother wanted Kay dead and talked about it all the time. And then they found another friend of hers who also said that, yes, she's also asked me if I could kill Kay Parsons as well.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's what I'm saying. And also, how did she think this was going to work out? Here's my question. Never mind the dick whatever. How did she think this was going to work out? They were going to kill Kay and then get away with it. And then her and David were going to be together. And then what happens when her husband comes home from Afghanistan? They're going to kill him?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get hundreds of bonus episodes you've never had before immediately upon subscription, and then new ones every other week, including this week, which you're going to get one Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder, and how much of that do they get, everybody? Oh, you get it all. You get it all. That's right. Every inch of it. Every damn drop of it.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I mean, what are we going to do here?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I don't know. I don't know what we're doing. That's what I mean. This is this doesn't seem like it was thought out all that much. But for months she was asking people to kill this woman. So she really was into this. So now upon. So they question Becky. She confesses to everything. She gives it all up. Becky's don't hold it very well.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
You get a Becky in the box and she's going to she's going to fucking sing like a canary. You know what I'm saying? They're not known for holding up under questioning those Becky. There's no mob boss named Becky. It's not going to work. She enlisted and she admitted she enlisted the help of her son, which just makes her an even bigger scumbag. Let me ruin my son's life, too.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
She said she picked him up from his place and drove him home while she went to drop her other children off at school. Christopher broke into the house, beat her with a hammer and bat, staged a burglary, and then Rebecca picked her up. So same shit. Now, let's find out the schmuck in all this. Tony. We got one, but yeah.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Tony. He's a fucking idiot. This guy. Are you kidding me? This is the dumbest person.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I wish you would say that. That'd be normal. Instead, he's got Becky's back like a motherfucker, even though she confessed to this. So did Christopher. So did Michael. So did another guy. Everything. They have the text messages of she's been fucking the neighbor.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Doesn't care. He's got her back. Yep. He said that he's just so sad that this is a nightmare he can't wake up from. It's turned his family life upside down. He said just the other day, he said to his kid, you know, can daddy have a kiss? And he said, that's a moment that Becky's missing out on right now. The missing out. He said, quote, it's tough, real tough. All of us miss her so much.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
My whole world's changed. OK, this is a real understanding cat right here. Oh, shit. Maybe it's her that fucks great. This is crazy. Yeah. He said then this is amazing. Oh, this is about Kay. OK. She was an innocent victim. She dropped her child off at school, came back home and was murdered. It's terrible. I can't even think about it. I don't even know what to think about it.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So they said, do you think she's guilty? Let's start there. You don't know what to think. Where do you think on this? Do you think he's guilty? Tony said, no, no. No, not guilty at all. Oh, boy. They all confessed to it. Not guilty.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Because Aunt Diane's not around to confess to everything she did and have him go, no, I think she's cool.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He's just got this memory he's trying to protect here. So they said, no doubt in your mind? And he said, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And this is a man who just came back from war. He knows reality. He's seen it. He just does not want to accept it here. This is a man who accepts reality in many portions of his life, but not here. Wow. Tiny chunks, though. Yeah. He said or they said they're calling her a mastermind, but saying that he beat a woman. He beat a woman to death.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
In both length and girth. Now, this week for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about, backed by popular demand, nothing to do with sports, personal ads. Let's find out how people would sell themselves to each other pre-app dating. And then Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about the West Memphis Three, very specifically how it happened.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Is that any part of is that any part of him that you've ever known? Meaning the son?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And he said personally, I couldn't see him doing something like that. And then Tony said, Becky's afraid that the smaller boys will forget her in time. So I keep bringing them down there for visitation.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
wow um that's fucking amazing and then uh this is i believe her sister said even if people wonder if becky and christopher are innocent there's no doubt about the fact that the other children are completely innocent here um he said she says you can look in their eyes and see that their spirit is still there they're still holding up holding tight but it's just your heart breaks for them every time you see that meaning becky's kids shocking
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Then she says, this is what Tony says now, it's extremely hard. And to hear how she's being treated, it just doesn't seem fair.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They put her in jail, man. The food's not good. Like, it's not fair.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
She's doing well as well as expected. Then he says, it's terrible. I can't even think about it. I don't even think about it. I don't even know what to think, he says again. Then they say, what do you think about the prosecution's claim that she was having an affair? There you go. There you go, yeah. Let's try to get some touch, a nerve of reality somewhere in Tony here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He says, I'd rather not talk about that. So let's push that reality off to the side and say my wife's innocent.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I mean, I get that he's got three small children to care for now, which is tough. But, wow. They said, could the Becky you know be capable of something like this? I mean, they call her a mastermind that she orchestrated this. And he said, no. No. He said, I don't believe none of that. And I believe she's innocent. He said it just doesn't seem fair. I've always thought, well, you're in jail.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's not supposed to be fair until something like this does happen. Then you realize what they're going through. Yeah, murderers have a tough time. They have to go to jail and everybody calls them. Yeah, sympathy for prisoners. Well, for Becky anyway.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I bet you the other prisoners he doesn't have so much sympathy for.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I bet he's a real law and order guy until now. You know what I mean? That's the thing. So Becky's sister Renee says that she's been staying with Tony to help him with the boys. I bet she has. I was going to say, Renee. Renee's making Tony feel... Well, they're all boys if you think about it, including Tony. I quote, help take care of the boys. Tony's dick is included in that.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Her family's also helping to pay for her sister and nephew's defense. So they asked Renee, no doubt in your mind she's innocent? And Renee said, no doubt whatsoever.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
unbelievable i know my sister and i know my nephew i know the things they're capable of and this is not one of them just are tony and renee just saying this to see him on the up and up so everybody doesn't think they're fucking is that what it is probably no they're great and innocent we're just we have to just huddle up together to try to get through this our our desire to see becky so bad and then it's next thing you know
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So they said that she said that the boys ask about their mother all the time. So they asked Renee, do they understand what's going on?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Renee said, not really. I bet the 13 year old does.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He's seen a law and order in one of his days, probably.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He said it's just been really heart-wrenching because every time the boys come up and give me a big hug, I think this is what Becky's missing. Every time some milestone happens, I think she's never going to get this back. Well, if only she wasn't so crazy for dick that she murdered people. You know what I mean? I'm sorry, but there was a real easy way for this not to happen.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Why did we need to have HBO come here for a document? How did it get?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's not like she was backed into a corner or something. This is all unforced errors.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
One of the two, yeah. I didn't know it was heart-wrenching. I guess you can wrench a heart if you want to. I suppose. I suppose.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's better, I think. Yeah, that makes more sense, but nobody cares. That's the problem. The sister said they were 2, 5, and 13. Now they're 3, 6, and 14, so she's missed a few birthdays. So this is the meeting a few months later.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
How did it get even to the point of that? We got these kids and they're on trial. And we'll talk all about how that happened.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
A few cumulative birthdays between the three of them.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's only one. It's been like eight months, literally. But that's what she said. And Tony said, Becky's afraid the smaller boys will forget her in time again. Renee said, even if people wonder if Becky and Christopher are innocent, there's no doubt about the fact that these children are.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So, yeah, then she says Becky or Renee says she's not this type of person, the person that would be so cruel and vindictive and just it was a heinous crime, just heinous. And neither of them are heinous people.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And from all accounts by everybody, a nice lady, just a nice lady next door. It's fucked up what she did. And somebody you said every fucking day with. That's the other thing. You know her kid well. You know... You know all this. That's no thought for anybody else's concern, but you're wrong. That is fucking gross.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
God damn. Everybody in the whole place. It's crazy stuff. We'll talk all about that and more. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. Sure. Jimmy, we'll mispronounce your name. That said, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. What do you say, everybody? Let's all clear the lungs, arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Just because Tony eats pussy like a fucking monster.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Has to, has to. So that's what it is. The family says the most hurtful part is feeling like they've already been found guilty already, even before they go on trial. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They all confessed to it in detail. That's the problem. And all the details match up. This isn't like some coerced confession where it doesn't line up. They just said, what happened? And she said, and spilled it. That was it. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about a very cool place, Thrive Market.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yes, we are both looking to get into the healthy swing this year. The problem is I don't know what's in everything, and I don't know if even I'm qualified to even read the labels to know if that's good or that's bad. There's chemicals and things, and there's things floating around. I don't know what I'm doing out there.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
What I did, and you're going to enjoy this, Jimmy, because I haven't showed this to you yet, but... Took all of our pictures from being on tour this year. All live show pictures, us backstage, us on stage doing all that stuff and like some of the just the venues and things and made a little photo book out of that. Also, they have free 24 hour designer service as well.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
One of my favorite features, and I know you were talking to me about this, is the healthy swap scanner in the Thrive Market app. Yeah, it's simple. You scan any item, and it'll instantly suggest a cleaner, healthier grocery alternative, which is amazing. That's great. Thrive Market also takes the guesswork out of finding these safe, healthy foods.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
For example, like I'm trying to get my protein intake up. Yeah. for energy. I'm always moving around. I need stuff. And I love that you can filter their site by the high protein options. It's very cool. And you can personalize this portion and you can put filters on it and get ready. You should be ready for a junk free start to 2025.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Get ready for it and head to thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder and get 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash smalltownmurder, thrivemarket.com slash smalltownmurder.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
This show, Small Town Murder, is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every January, it's a whole new slate. Clean. You bet. It is blank pages all the way around. Absolutely. And maybe you're ready for a new something in your life here. A little plot twist in your story that you've been wanting to revise a little bit. But life isn't about resolutions that are going to
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
fade away by February, right after New Year's, think of therapy as an editorial partner. There you go. That's a good way to put it. Helping you write new chapters and creating the story of your life that you should have, that you want to have. That's what it's all about. The one you deserve. The one you deserve. And we can't say enough about therapy.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Visit BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash SmallTownMurder.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you all sorts of good stuff about Chime. That's what I'm talking about. There's so many extra fees you have to pay in life. Everything. You go to the airline, there's an extra ticket on that. There's an extra fee.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Fees, hotels, fees, all this type of stuff. We're trying to make progress. And the next thing you know, here comes another fee coming at you. And it's more money than you expected, and your whole math is thrown off, and it's awful. Learn more at Chime.com slash Small Town Murder. Chime is great with that stuff.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I mean, you can't beat if things are a little tight, especially around the holidays or after the holidays. You need that money a couple days early. You go grocery shopping. You got a car payment due. There's so many things that don't.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
cross over exactly how you want them to cross over make progress toward a better financial future with chime open your account in two minutes at chime.com slash small town murder that's chime.com slash small town murder feels like progress banking services and debit cards provided by bank corp bank na or stride bank na members fdic spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply boosts are available to eligible chime members enrolled in spot me
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs. And now, back to the show. So, this is Tony says, I think what bothers us the most is that they're so set on Becky and Christopher that they aren't even looking for the real person who's done this.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going down to Georgia. Okay, let's go, you old rascally devil. Quickly, before we go, though, before we get in the car here, quick program note, the next Small Town Murder episode after this, the next regular one that comes out Wednesday night, Thursday, that will be our 1,000th
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They're a real killer. He's like OJ now. Then Renee says, you feel like they've already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. And you can kind of understand because you see, here's this woman with this lovely child and this terrible thing happens to her. You immediately want someone to blame. You immediately want a reason why.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
You don't want it to be a random act because you don't want to think it could happen to you. Well, yeah. No, this isn't. That's because it's not a random act at all.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So months go by. Tony now moves to Nashville with his three young sons.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's probably not Nashville, which is good. That's probably why you move there. You know what I mean? Whatever is going on there. Morgan Wallen did something worse at his own bar or some shit. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
threw a chair at somebody or some shit some girl is professing some awful thing she does to people on the streets doesn't matter right now yeah Jimmy's buying a ball sack weed from a 12 year old you know how it goes because that happened in Nashville so guess what though Renee came with him, too. Yeah. She's got to help with the boys. You know, the sister. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Come on. Tony isn't going to feel better on his own here. So Tony says with the kids in my job, I'm pretty busy. So it kind of takes my mind off of it. I'm sure. I'm sure Becky loves to hear that. Then Renee says, you go to sleep one night and you wake up the next days and your life has entirely changed. But she's been helping Tony and just living with Tony ever since.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I'm sure there's no sex going on there. So now they are facing charges of burglary, armed robbery, malice murder, and felony murder.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's the problem. And prosecutors are going for the death penalty for both cases.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
there you go mother and son going for the death penalty absolutely absolutely so that'll be have there ever been a mother-son fucking combination executed before i don't know executed for murder a mother and a son that's crazy never heard of it does she does he get to sit on her lap while they do it this is insane so the prosecutor said i think it's an appropriate case for the death penalty they said that it's it is quite frankly one of the
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
She said he said policemen discovered the victim had been beaten almost to death by a claw hammer in her own living room. The blood trail suggests she fled from Christopher Bowers into the garage where she was ultimately murdered by blows from the claw hammer. Now, their defense attorney's name, by the way, is Vic Hawk is his name.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Vic Hawk. H-A-W-K. And he said, during the bond hearing, he said, it's all circumstantial evidence. This is stupid. Say what? They admitted to it. Her blood is all over her truck, man. What are you talking about?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
This is like a pretty, I mean, there's physical evidence. There's circumstantial evidence. There's telephone records. There's confessions. There's every form of, there's the murder weapons. Every form of evidence possible they have here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Other than an eyewitness staring at the whole thing, they have everything else. But they eyewitnessed on themselves, so it doesn't really matter.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yeah, well, I got two. I got two witnesses, one for each of you. So this defense attorney said, I haven't really heard anything from the state with regard to real evidence to justify concluding that Rebecca Sears killed anyone. Wow. Tony and Rebecca or Tony and Renee, the new couple. Hey, they say, you know, people's thoughts, the death penalty creeps into their minds.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
episode of crime and sports and small town murder combined that'll be i don't count your stupid opinions because it's not it's not research intensive so it's not it's not there but this will be our 1000th episode which is a episode a goddamn big fucking deal everybody let's just say it that way so a lot of minutes it's a lot of minutes it's a lot of hours and wow there's so much hours goes into it so thank you everybody for helping us get to 1000
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
You know, Tony said everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I've actually had to stop reading the newspapers and blogs, the stuff that people write. I mean, it's gut wrenching. There you go. There it is. What they think should be done to Becky and Christopher. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Because I mean, any go to a comment section of a crime like this and it's just people go, I want to take them and drag them behind my truck and then, you know, cook them on my smoke or whatever crazy shit they're thinking of. So Tony said here, you already know what's at the end of the trial. I try not to think about it much. I don't want to think about it.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And Renee said, you have to plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Hope for farts, but plan for shit, like I said before. That's all you can do.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's it. Hope for the best. They said, we are going to stand behind them all the way through and just hope and pray the truth comes out and we'll all be back together again. And Tony says, what keeps me sane is I know that soon it will be over and the truth will come out. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Definitely behind them because the one kid, he'll shoot you when he's not even supposed to. So Vic Hawk now asks to personally review the crime scene with his client. He says that it's Becky's right to view the crime scene and that they have no intention to undermine the prosecution. He said, we do have the duty to investigate. Mm-hmm.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
The prosecution says they oppose allowing Becky to, quote, invade the home of the victim where her husband and three small children are still living. She just wanted to get a glimpse of David, I think, and is fucking just in his hog through his pants or something. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Some Vic Hawk also asked for any notes made by investigators during a more than two hour gap in the recording of Mrs. Sears interrogation. He also requested that all evidence be preserved for independent testing. And they said he said our concern in this case is that there will be significant scientific testing.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
prosecution says no objection to preserving the evidence, but you're not going to take the evidence to independent facilities without us, basically, because, you know, we have to vet the company first and make sure that they're a legitimate company. That's not just, you know, working for you to get whatever results you want, basically. Sure. So the trial is going to happen here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And they said the this is one of the lawyers said we still have to address the issue of getting Mrs. Sears husband back from Afghanistan because he was redeployed again. You'd think they would go, okay, listen, my wife's on a fucking trial for murder and I have three small kids to take care of. Maybe send somebody else. You know what I'm saying? I'm not the only guy in the army.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I know it's army of one. It's not me. Find somebody else and send them, because I am... Yeah, be all I can be at home. Yeah, like, I get I signed up, but I doubt many other soldiers have this much shit going on in their life right now. You know what I mean? This is a lot. Anybody else's wife up for the death penalty in here? No? Didn't think so. Can I fucking stay home?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So 2012, here we go, right before the trial comes up. This is three years later, by the way. It took that long.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
They just say, fuck it, and plead guilty.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Have to. That's what I mean. All this evidence of this and that, they have every bit of evidence in the world. I don't even know what they were thinking they wanted more of.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I need this much money. I need another $80,000 for this. I need another $40,000 for that. Let them drive. If you've got a family that's willing to put up money, they'll do that. They will drain. So now the it's been nearly 25 years, by the way, since this county attempted a death penalty case, since they've even even tried for the death penalty in this.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
and hopefully we will get to another 1,000. So that said, Grovetown, Georgia. Let's do it. This is eastern Georgia near the South Carolina border. It's about 20 minutes to Augusta, outside of Augusta, Georgia. Two hours over to Atlanta, over to the west there, and about an hour 20 to Rutledge, Georgia, which is our last Georgia episode, A Deadly Love, and that was a weird one. It's been a minute.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And that was for a serial rapist named Richard Daniel Starrett. So, yeah, the prosecution said good police work and airtight prosecution makes it abundantly obvious to criminals that they're better off taking not the death penalty, essentially. So and the prosecutor said it's also a tremendous savings for local taxpayers because and it is they're going to save so much fucking money doing this.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So the sentencing comes around. Here we go. Mom and son standing next to each other for sentencing. You, ma'am and sir, may fuck off. They are both sent to prison for life without parole for murder, life for armed robbery, and 20 years for burglary.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Life without parole and then life and then 20 and then 20. You're not getting out is what that says. Never. I have stacked these to make sure that your asses are going to die in there. So that's unbelievable. That's banged him good there. I mean, I don't know if I'd give that for Christopher, really. I think I'd give it to him mostly.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
See, I'd give it to the person who planned it and manipulated it. To manipulate your son to commit murder is way worse than murder. Like, that's way worse. A mother telling their... If my mother told me to kill somebody, I'd be like, are you out of your fucking mind?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's what I mean. I probably would end up... That's what I mean. You'd end up doing it. Your mother has a lot of control over you, I think. Especially if you're 19. Especially if...
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
yeah especially if you get nagged a lot yeah i get that he's an adult but yeah i mean give him you know i don't want him getting out till he's 60 or something because obviously if you're capable of 50 years yeah beating some poor lady some nice lady to death with a claw hammer you got fucking problems but she's diabolical yeah and the other parts chris knew exactly why he was he was doing this because mom was cheating on dad that's what i mean not dad stepdad
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It would have to be, yeah. Yeah, you don't have any loyalty to this fucking guy, probably, beyond that. Although he's been around for a long time because their oldest son was 13 at the time. 13, yes.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
He's been around at least since Chris was six. Yeah. You know, so that's a...
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I was thinking, so five years old, you should have more respect than that. But anyway, they're both monsters. I mean, to beat someone's bad, but to come up with it and to say, I'll have my kid do it is next level diabolical shit. Yeah, okay, come on, hop in the truck. That's fucked up. So the prosecutor said it was a good resolution to the case to get it done on both defendants that quickly.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I hate to say that quickly three years later. Once it actually came, it was quick, though. In, what is this, 2017, Investigation Discovery did a retelling of the story of this whole case here. They called it Unusual Suspects, Deadly Intent. And then after that, oh, Tangled Up in Red also. Deadly Intent, Tangled Up in Red. Two subtitles. Wow. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Then there was multiple documentary things on this, TV shows. Evil Kin, that show, did an episode called For Sale by Owner, which makes no sense for this episode. Not at all. My Dirty Little Secret did an episode called Naughty Neighbors. Ha, ha, ha. Deadly Affairs, of course, and we've seen Deadly Affairs is the one with Susan Lucci looking all horny. Deadly Affairs, which is the funniest one.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I love their recreations. It's so fucking hilarious. That's the one where the light was coming out of the woman's vagina. Remember that? That was like a crazy one there.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That was hilarious, Deadly Affairs. Love thy neighbor, obviously. And then, of course, of course, you have to have an episode because it's a woman who killed someone. Yeah, it snapped. It snapped, of course. Rebecca Sears, obviously. She didn't even snap.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Snap means I can't take it anymore. This was like, hmm, how do I get that good dick more? Right. That's different.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
This is in Columbia County. Population here, by the way, is really spiked in the last 20 years in this area. It's $15,608, which it was like $3,000 20 years ago. So it's gone up a lot. Median household income here around the rest of the country, it's about $69,000. Here it is $63,860. Median home price here, $279,300. So that's lower than the national average also.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
this is i can take it so much more and i don't even want to get my husband out of the way that's the other thing right because i need help with these kids so i just want this lady out of the way so i can sneak over to the neighbor's house and take more yeah this is wild shit oh my god poor k is buried at the sylvan heights cemetery in fayette county pennsylvania oliver pennsylvania she is what's where she's from
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Rebecca Bowers now. Let's see. She is, by the way, you want to see a person change in prison?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Wow. Did she change a lot? I don't know. You'd have to look so far. Don't bother anyway. But she went from very like a slender blonde woman, very slender little blonde woman in her initial appearance to.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
to by the time she is in this in jail here yeah a couple years later she's listed at five four 210 pounds she had a sunny from wwe she she doubled she doubled her weight in jail wow like pretty much doubled her weight which i mean whatever but i mean it's just that wasn't the way she was before that but in jail she just like put on the carbs i guess that's tough man that happens to people in jail they get pudgy they either get jacked or pudgy one of the fucking two here
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So, yeah, she's in there. She is currently at the Lee Arendale State Prison in Alto, Georgia. And no release date for her, obviously. And then her son Christopher here, he is at the Smith State Prison in Glenville, Georgia. And, yeah, he's stuck there. Now, there is a novel about this. quote, a novelization of the story, which means they can just make up whatever they want.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's called Hot Springs Drive. They're going to play up the fucking part of it a lot here. Hot Springs Drive was released in 2023. It was the winner of the Chicago Review of Books Best Fiction Prize.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
This is the third title in Roxane Gay Books inaugural series, inaugural list, Hot Springs Drive, an urgent, vicious blade of a novel about a shocking betrayal and its aftermath, asking just how far you'll go to have everything you want. I like the description. Jackie Stinson's best friend is dead and everyone knows who killed her.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Jackie wants to be many things, but a martyr's never been one of them. She's an ex-emotional eater and mother of four who's finally lost the weight she yearned to be free of. In her new sharp edged body, she goes by Jacqueline. But leaving her old self behind proves harder than she ever imagined.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And while she believes she should be happier, misery still chases her and motherhood threatens to subsume what little is left of her.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Holy Jesus Christ, man. They call Dark Springs Drive is a dark. Hot Springs Drive is a dark, heart pounding exploration of one woman's deepest desires and how the consequences of betrayal can ripple outward beyond the intentional strike point. Wow. Okay. Anyway, so they say only one left in stock of the hardcover on Amazon. Is that right? Jesus Christ. Scramble for them now, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And the motto here, a community that cares. There it is. Which just sounds like a hospital's motto. It doesn't sound like... Come to our town. It's a hospital. Enjoy.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
So there you go. That's Grovetown, Georgia. And what a fucked up, you don't know what's going on behind closed doors, and this is creepy. That's why. So shitty. So shitty. So if you think it's shitty also, or you just want to say how much you love the show, tell everyone about it. Get on whatever app you're listening on and give five stars.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Get on other apps you don't even listen on and give five stars. It fucking helps a lot. It really does. I'm telling you. You got 20 minutes. Let's say you're sitting on the toilet. You got a few minutes. Fucking give us some reviews. It's easy. So do that. It'll keep you occupied, too. Do that. Also, shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live goddamn shows. You bet.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
We are so excited. They are awesome.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
up right now to be bought on the site and pittsburgh you are up next up first yeah get your shit together and get in there you're up first so we are very jacked for that and the dates go as follows we are february 7th pittsburgh it's the oakland carnegie music hall not munhall people apparently that's a big deal there i don't know why you would name two fucking venues in two different cities around you in suburbs the same fucking thing it makes no sense
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
It's big. It's big. We'll name it all after him. February 8th, we're in Columbus at the beautiful Davidson. That's a nice place. May 16th, St. Louis at the Pageant. That was a nice place. We did that a couple years ago. May 17th, Chicago at the Riviera. That's going to be fun. Saturday, September 6th, we are in San Diego, California at the Observatory.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Sunday, September 7th, we are in Irvine at the Irvine Improv in California there. Then I'll skip that one because that's the one we're going to announce. It's going to be September 19th is the show that we're going to announce later. September 20th, Grand Rapids, Michigan, baby. We are jacked for that. First stop Friday, October 17th, Portland, Oregon at the Newmark.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Then the next night in Seattle at the Moore. Then Friday, December 12th in Philadelphia. And we close it all out with December 13th in Washington, D.C. Get your tickets right now. We are jacked about it. Cannot wait. Absolutely excited. Also, get yourself some Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all of your bonus material.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get, number one, a gigantic big old fat back catalog of episodes you've never heard before if you've never had Patreon. Hundreds of them. Then you get new ones every other week, of course. One Crime and Sports, one Small Town Murder. And we just give it to you all for $5. Just take it. Just take it. It's taking up too much space around here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Check in. History of this town. In the 1860s, the town was known as Bel Air, which is pretty funny. That would have been way different if that's where they put Will Smith.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
We need to get rid of it. Just take it. We don't care. For crime and sports this week, something that has nothing to do with sports, back by popular demand, newspaper personal ads. Let's see how people tried to get laid not in person before apps. Because this was the only way to do it, basically, back then, unless you want to do a video service or something.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about the West Memphis Three, and very specifically, how the fuck did this happen? What the hell? How did we even get to the point of those kids sitting in a room being interviewed? Just that. Just how do you pick those three out of everybody to fuck with?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
We'll talk all about it. That was one of the bigger fuck-ups. And when you hear about it, it was a special serendipity of stupid that happened there to make this happen, which that would be the name of the episode if it was a regular episode. That's not bad. So check all that out. That is patreon.com slash crimeandsports.com. And you get a shout-out at the end of the show as well. So do that.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And, again, program note, the next Small Town Murder, the regular episode that we're going to do that will come out early on Wednesday and then out fully the next week, that will be our 1,000th. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
episode of small town murder and crime and sports which is incredible that's so many so much podcasting and so much research and so much everything and so much laughing and we had a great fucking time doing it so yeah we're gonna throw another thousand out there before we're done for sure so keep hanging out with us and doing that you want to follow us on social media real real easy to do just head over to shut up and give me murder.com drop down menu we'll send you
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
anywhere you want to be you bet not just us anywhere it's that's it's all right make it your home page just go right there yeah the world's yours the world is your oyster right from there so come hang out with us keep doing that and uh keep coming back and until next week everybody it has been our pleasure bye
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That would have been not great. It was officially incorporated, the city, on January 1st, 1881. The name of the small village came from the Old Grove Baptist Church that was founded in 1808. That's where the grove came from in there. There was a poet here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
the poet famous in the post-civil war era named paul hamilton hayne he oh i thought it was corpse hill that's why i'm saying this but it's not i don't read it well enough is it core hill it's copes hill c-o-p-s-e and i was like he moved to corpse hill what the hell is that about uh then uh he also solicited the u.s postal service to establish a grovetown post office that's how he got it so that's how they got the post office was a poet had to wonder if he wrote them in poetry
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
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Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
i would if you're if you got the skill why not right i think he wrote the uh neither rain sleep snow i'll tell you what all that i'll give you guys a motto if you do this for me also it was a lot of people from augusta wealthy people from augusta had summer homes in grovetown and so that was a big deal there they'd come out and then they found out about hilton head which
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yeah, I guess if you want to go further. It's right there. Yeah. And they built a hotel known as the Eagle in the 1880s as well. The Roseland Hotel turned into the Eagle. Sounds great. Reviews of this town. Here we go. We don't know shit about it. Maybe these people do. Five stars. I moved to Grove Town, Georgia from a small city in Mississippi five years ago.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And I have to say I haven't regretted making the decision. I'm sure I bet I'm a small town girl, but moving here has allowed me to meet new people and be a part of such a positive, diverse environment. What town are you from? This is the big city. Fifteen thousand people in the middle of fucking nowhere. The big city.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I truly love this city. Use that term loosely. Three stars. If you enjoy medium town living, what the hell does that mean? Medium size or is it just mid? Like to use your stupid opinions thing here.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Yeah, if you enjoy medium town living, then Grovetown is the place for you. It's within the suburbs of Augusta. It's small enough where families actually know each other, but big enough to have nice activities, dinners, and theaters for families. Okay, that's fine. That makes sense. It's not so small that there's one little restaurant that closes at 7 o'clock or something.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And then finally, two stars. The city does its best to be progressive, like with bike lanes, although minimal, and keeping the area looking tidy and festive when it applies. The parks are an amazing place to visit. I lived near the middle and high school and appreciated the fact that kids would walk there on foot and the sheriff department would control traffic for them.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
The regular people though are snobby and quite rude. That just tells me the kids can't smoke weed on the way home from school, which sucks. That would have been my concern as a kid. This sucks. Go away. I'll dodge cars. I don't want to smoke this. The regular people though are snobby and quite rude. The drivers are maniacs and regularly put everyone in danger. Regularly. Everyone.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Even if you're not on the road, you're in danger.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Even if you're in your living room, danger. They're coming right through the wall. Town full of dirt boys. Things to do here. The Columbia County Fair is the main thing to do here. And there's some events going on here. There is, I don't know what this is, a banana derby. A what? A banana derby. I don't know what the fuck a banana derby is exactly.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Who's got the biggest dick here? It's the banana derby. The master chainsaw carver will be there. Sure. Of course, obviously. I don't know if he has anything to do with the banana derby, but I wouldn't want to piss that guy off if he's swinging that chainsaw. The American Motor Drome Company, Drome, D-R-O-M-E, Company Wall of Death.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I have no idea what that is at all.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Hey, everybody. Just going to take a quick break from the show and tell you about Noom. Has Noom helped you? I believe it has. Oh, it's got an app. You can do tracking. It's terrific. It does. Noom builds personal plans that can meet individual needs. That's the thing. Takes into account any dietary restrictions, medical issues, other personal needs. That helps build a plan that works for you.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I don't know. I have no idea. It's got to be. You could suggest 100 things and I'd say I don't know. I have no idea what that is. Magic man TJ Hill will be strolling each night. Then Dr. Magical Balloons will be there also.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
There's nothing more annoying than when they send a roving magician around. That's the most annoying. It just pops up next to you and he's like, want to see a card trick? No, I don't. I'd be friends with an asswipe like you if I fucking wanted to see a card trick, but I'm not on purpose. Also, the Goat Island Petting Zoo. I assume there's goats. The 4-H Grow Here Pollinator Garden and Hay Bales.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Oh, boy. That's an event. And that's what I mean. I saw that, and I was like, oh, I remember the pollinator. And then finally, your bands here. Able Cricket will be here. Sure. A-B-E-L Cricket. Then Major Sound. Yeah. Okay, it sounds like an army major who's in the wrong business. Sounds not so great. Demolition Derby, Columbia, oh, entertainment, Doug James and the Stagehand Band.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
That's a good sign. Damn. That's where most of the good musicians come from.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Not even Nelly. Not even Ludacris will come here. That's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Jay and the Bootleggers will be there. Okay. And also Salt Run. This sucks. Tony Howard, Motown, and Tina Turner Review. So that's all old songs, you know. That's fine, at least. And then finally, Little Roy and Lizzy will be there.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
This is horrifying. I am so upset. That is a bad festival right there. It's a terrible day. It's a bad day. No matter what night you're there, the music is not going to be any better. That said, let's talk about some murder, shall we? All right, let's do this. All right, let's talk about a woman first here. Laverne we'll talk about. She doesn't go by Laverne, though. She goes by Kay. Why not?
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Well, Laverne Catherine Sanner is her name she was born with. Later, she'll be Parsons. And it makes sense maybe why she dropped the Laverne, because she's born in February of 1968. So that means, yeah, 10 years when she's 9, 10. I mean, that is Laverne, Laverne and Shirley Laverne.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
Penny Marshall, I hate you, is what she says. She hates Penny Marshall a lot. So now she's Kaye. Which is funny because Catherine usually isn't Kay anyway. Kay just seems like... Yeah, Kathy or Kate even, but not usually Kay.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
I never heard Kay from that, but whatever. She's born in Connellsville, Pennsylvania. That's where she's born to parents Arthur and Mabel Sanner. Sounds like she was born in 1868, not 1968. She has three brothers and three sisters. So it's her and a Brady Bunch there.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
She graduated from Laurel Highlands High School there and met a man named David Parsons after high school and gets married and becomes Kay Parsons. And David is in the Army. So he's a career army guy. He's going to be in for, I think, 20 years, and then he's going to get out of the army. Oh, yeah. And she liked it. She liked the lifestyle. They have a son here as well.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
And, yes, I know that you've had your own personalized program here that you've been working on.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
In 1997, they have a son together named Derek. And she is all about being a mom. And, you know, into the army wife thing, too. Very much into her kids, into baseball. Her kids very much into Little League. So she's a big, a big baseball mom type of thing. You know what I mean? Also goes to church and all that stuff. Kind of your typical kind of suburban lifestyle.
Small Town Murder
#558 - Helping Mom With Murder - Grovetown, Georgia
mom family here southern mom too absolutely and he's a David when he retires from the military he takes a job as a contractor there so he's doing that for the military yeah so he's doing I don't know if he's working for the military or actually hammering nails into shit I'm not sure one of the two so they live at 229 Hot Springs Drive which is a four bedroom three bath almost 2500 square foot very comfortable house doing great
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
No, no, no. But a 19-year-old running his own farm seems odd also.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Now, this Brenner is considered a family friend of the Rounds' here. They know him. He's considered just a guy of the area. Open him out. Yeah, one of those guys. He's got a decent little criminal record on him. He's got a record that includes malicious wounding, malicious shooting, multiple convictions of being a felon in possession of a firearm. He had a shooting charge from 1986.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I am going to have some weird apparatus for Jimmy to smoke out of and get him all freaked out. We're going to wear stupid costumes again, and it'll be a theme and a lot of fun and a crazy murder story. Wherever you are in the world with Wi-Fi, you can watch this. So can't wait.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And at another separate occasion, he was charged with and accused of beating a 70-year-old man with an aluminum chair.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He went full fucking WWF fucking extreme. He went full ECW on a 70-year-old man when he was, like, 40. Worked him over with a chair.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I have the arrest report for his 1986 shooting arrest.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
so i hang aluminum siding where well not right now currently i've i've hanged aluminum siding say how's that and if more pops up i'll hang it i will hang it again So this took place at a 7-Eleven store, all right, which makes the whole thing way trashier immediately.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So it says the above defendant was arrested after he was involved in a shooting at the Costa Regional Park at approximately 1,750 hours. The defendant was sitting in his truck at campsite number four, I guess it's near a 7-Eleven, at Costa Regional Park. He was visited by Mr. Danny Weir and Mr. Michael Spro, who had stopped to discuss a new job offer for him. Hey, there we go. Get some siding up.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah. The defendant had been laid off earlier in the day by Mr. Weir. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And now we're back with work. The defendant allegedly uncovered a handgun from under a blanket in the truck and reached for the gun. As he did, Mr. Weir reached for his arm, meaning this guy's arm. To stop him.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Mr. Weir stated that as he reached for the defendant's arm to push the gun away from his chest area, the two struggled, the gun discharged, and the bullet shot him in the thigh, in the right thigh.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Join us that night, and it's available for two weeks afterwards also, so you can watch it 100 times and do whatever you want with it. Also, get your tickets for the regular live shows. St. Louis is the first up. I think it's about sold out, though. Chicago. That's where you got to look at here. Chicago at the Riviera in May. That's where we will be. Check that out.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The bullet then passed through the right calf of Michael Spro, who was standing behind him. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Who were trying to fucking get him a new job. Yeah. He then stated to Mr. Weir, quote, I'm going to kill you, you motherfucker. You cost me my job. As the two struggled for the gun, the defendant attempted to cock the gun for another shot.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Holy shit. At this time, Mr. Weir was able to gain control of the gun and give it to Dwight Castaborder. The defendant then ordered his dog, a German Shepherd, to attack Mr. Weir, which it did. That's a good puppy. Mr. Weir received several bites to the leg and numerous scratches to his chest hair. What a bad day. With the help of witnesses at the scene, Mr. Weir got the defendant off of him.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
At the time, the defendant approached Mr. Castaborder and demanded his gun back. When he did not receive it, he fled in his truck. A lookout was issued by Officer Wright to all area police agencies. The defendant was stopped at the 7-Eleven. That's where that comes in. This is in Maryland by Prince George's County. He was transported to Clinton Station, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The defendant was processed and interviewed. He stated that he did not remember any of the incident and that he did not own a gun. I don't know what you're talking about.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The gun described as a .44 caliber Ruger 6-inch barrel. God damn! He shot him with a fucking dirty Harry gun, for Christ's sake. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Wow. This is fucking crazy. Then later on, he stated that he does keep the weapon in his truck. He admitted to it. In a box.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The Peacekeeper. With a picture of a mustache on it. Yeah. It's fucking crazy. Big mustache. So in 2012, he served two and a half years in federal prison after a conviction for being a felon in possession of a firearm.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And that happened all the time from the 80s on. So this guy is a fucking trip. He's a party.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
No, he needs to not have a gun for any nature or anything else. So now there's a little background here. Apparently, Dylan James Brenner and a guy named Don Haitley, who is a next door neighbor to this whole event. He has the property next door. He works the property next door. I'm not sure of the ownership status.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They were in Idaho approximately June 20th, 2020, so two years earlier, related to the purchase of several hundred pigs. Now, people involved in the deal with the pigs were Brenner, Dillon, Ed Harshberger, and a guy named Larry. So Jim, Dillon, Ed, and Larry are going to go in on some pigs here.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And then the rest of them as well. A lot of them are selling out. So get your tickets immediately for that. Shut up and give me murder dot com. You also are going to want Patreon.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Larry explained that the pigs were part of a venture where Dylan was attempting to make a profit from the slaughter of pigs purchased from the Midwest during the COVID epidemic. So that's what he's doing. The pigs were purchased for pennies on the dollar.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The deal resulted in approximately 500 pigs being delivered to Larry's property in Idaho with an eventual plan to move the pigs to Lucerne, Utah. Wow. Now, initially, Larry estimated there were only to receive approximately 100 pigs. However, 500 were initially or eventually delivered. That's way more pigs. That's so many pigs. I went to a place.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They gave me an extra pizza and they were like, oh, we made an extra one. You can keep it. That's fine. 400 extra pigs. I'd be like, I don't have what?
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
We accidentally made 399 extra pizzas. I don't know if you want these or not. So moving the pigs from Idaho to Utah required approval by a vet in Idaho. Larry indicated the veterinary clinic was upset with the number of pigs requiring approval. Yeah, they want to look at them all.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Holy shit. It was at this vet clinic where Dylan was seeking approval to move the pigs where the initial altercation between Brenner, James Brenner, and Justin, who is, Justin is Dylan's father. Justin shouldn't be anybody's father. No one's father should be named Justin, number one. It just doesn't work.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
For sure. You're going to want to listen to Crime in Sports, our other show, which we're doing an Evil Knievel series on right now. Don't have to like sports for that. You listen to your stupid opinions. But if you want more, you can get Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all the bonus material.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, that's just strange. Someday there's going to be Grandpa Justin. We can't have that. It's just weird. We're going to Grandpa Justin's is a strange thing.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
You sound like a tiny white child. Why are you in the NFL? With like a hemophiliac with all sorts of allergies.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, you should be like staying away from pets because they make you break out in hives.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I can't deal with it. So Dylan's father and Brenner got in an argument here. At the time of this incident, Justin mistakenly believed that James Brenner was Harshberger, a totally different guy. He had him confused. That's why they were arguing.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Justin was angry with Harshberger, believing that Harshberger was responsible for Dylan having an interest in farming in the Lucerne area, which they didn't want him to do. Justin angrily confronted Brenner at the veterinary clinic and told Brenner to get off Larry's property where the pigs were being kept.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Despite Justin mistaking Brenner for Harshberger, Brenner told Justin to meet on the lane outside the property adjacent to the house of Larry's father. This was a residence where Brenner was staying while he was working with Dylan. Okay, Brenner arrived. He's like, show up for a fucking throwdown, basically.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So Brenner arrived at the lane with, quote, his six gun on his hip and his holster. That's from a police report. What?
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
an actual revolver it's 2020 fucking 2020 covid is going on this isn't the fucking dodge city wandering for a fucking shootout this is not tombstone this is crazy larry believed that brenner retrieved his gun from larry's father's house justin arrived at the lane he apparently knew it was up he showed up with an ar-15 so he wasn't fucking around either oh boy This is crazy.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
There's like four people in the whole town, hundreds of miles get away from each other. What are you doing? And they're all strapped and hate each other. This is crazy. Fuck. So Larry somehow was able to deescalate this situation so that no one shot each other. I don't know how you deescalate this situation, but he did it.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So Brenner and Justin were approximately 100 feet apart and were pretty angry. Brenner was walking up the lane with his gun. Brenner was angry with Justin and told Larry that. Brenner stated something to the effect of, I hate that son of a bitch, which Larry described Brenner as having a short temper, which it sounds like. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
While Brenner was on the lane waiting for Justin, Justin went to his house, got the AR-15. Larry explained that Justin can get pretty loud when angry and was either pointing his finger at Brenner or had poked Brenner in the chest prior to. That's what caused the showdown. He poked him. Chest poking. So we're showing up with our guns. Neither pointed their gun at the other.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Anybody $5 a month or above, you get immediately upon subscription hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before. And then you get new ones every other week. One Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder, and you get it all. That's right. This week for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about the 2012 Miami Dolphins bullying scandal that they had, which is really weird.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Larry believed that if either would have pointed their gun at the other, someone would have gotten shot. I think so, too. Yeah. Brenner relied on the good nature of Dylan and Larry for survival during the winter. Because during the winter, it's harsh out there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I mean, yeah. Larry pointed out that Dylan drove to Idaho from Lucen in order to collect firewood from Larry so that Brenner would be able to stay warm during the winter. So Dylan's doing him favors. Yeah. Rounds also believe that it's likely that Brenner's temper played a part in the disappearance of Dylan.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
That's what Justin said to dad and indicated that if Brenner were to provide information of the location of Dylan's body, Larry would be interested in Brenner receiving a break in any potential charge or sentence. So they already have him. He did it and he took him somewhere and did something.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Now, from all we can assume here, it seemed like Dylan and James Brenner got along, though. So that makes it interesting. So the family, Dylan's family, hires a private investigator. We're already there. They did it right away because I'm not sure.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And some new information just came out about that. People are talking about it now. So we'll find out more. Then for Small Town Murder, the Amazon review killer. Golly. Which, yeah, that goes along with so much of what we do. Small town murder, your stupid opinions, all of it in there. We'll talk all about that and more. Patreon.com slash crime in sports.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I don't think they have a lot of confidence in this police department going out in the middle of the desert and really following through on this shit, even though they do.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah. versed in how to do this that's the thing and i read i'm telling you this that like i said there was a freedom of information act release of all the files in this case yeah so i've read i read 30 police reports i read all this shit so that i saw everything they were doing and they were following up on things and i mean they had to drive out to the desert a lot
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
A fucking lot here. So this guy went on a YouTube channel to talk publicly, the private investigator. He did all of that. He reported that rounds has been farming in the desert town of Luce in Utah during the summer months over the past few years and, you know, all of that sort of thing. So rounds a Dylan reportedly told his grandmother that he was doing the seed truck and that's how that goes.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So, um, now, uh, he was last seen on May 26th, 2002. People talk to him on the 28th. He was last seen in a cafe in Montello, Nevada, which is close by on the other side of the border there where he ate before going back to Utah. So they found out that that's a thing. So they're going to figure that out on May 30th.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Now, this is his mom and Dylan's mom and Dylan's stepfather here apparently traveled out to loosen from their residence in Ohio and Idaho because Dylan hadn't been heard from. So on the way to loosen, Candace is his mom and his stepdad stopped in Park Valley, Utah, where they were able to get cell service and call Don Haley, the neighbor there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
and then call the Box Elder County Sheriff's Office to report that Dylan was missing. During the call to Hatley, Candace asked Hatley if she should call the police to make a missing persons report, and Hatley told her, yes, I think that would be okay to do now.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So, Candace and the stepfather drove from Park Valley to Lucerne and met Haitley on the road into Lucerne where Haitley's turnoff into his property was. Haitley told the mom that James Brenner was waiting for him there, waiting for them to talk to them. So Candace and the stepmom continued to the property where James Brenner lived.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Haley waited near his turnoff so that Haley could direct others arriving to look for Dylan as to where to go because there's people showing up looking for him. They pull their truck into the property. Candace and the stepdad are met by James Brenner. They park by the grain truck, which was parked in the grain shed. So they parked back over there where he was last going.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So after their arrival, James Brenner mentioned that Dylan needed to learn how to use a gun. He said that he kept the gun on one side of Dylan's truck and the ammo on the other side and that Dylan would be better off learning to throw a gun as opposed to shooting it as a means of self-defense.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Exactly. So he had them separate. So they said that's interesting. And they reported that to the sheriff's department that he said that. He also repeatedly, James did, made mention that Brenner had been in the grain truck in order to reposition the truck because the truck had been backed in too far. He said, I had to move this truck because he backed it in way too far, like frustrated though.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. At the end of the regular show, Jimmy will mispronounce your name horribly while dying to get it correct.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah. They said they've been searching around the clock every day. Detectives have already 6,000 miles. I don't know how you even do that. Yeah. That's a lot. That's a lot. They spent over 650 man hours investigating the case. They've got canines, drones. They've been on horseback. They flew planes over this thing. I mean, everywhere.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They said the surrounding areas on the Utah and Nevada border is full of old mine shafts, caves and tunnels. That's what the mother said. So she said a professional cave diver volunteered to help search some of those spaces for them. Because you got to know how to do that shit. So you can't just go fucking walking into a cave. Parents also offer a $20,000 reward as well.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And they also said there's a number of false rumors and fake fundraisers circulating on social media.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
That's it. So that said, I think it's time. Speaking of our credo, here is our credo. I think it's time, everybody, to sit back, clear the lungs. Let's all arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do it, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to Utah this week.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Isn't that great? So on the initial day of May 30th, when they're looking around and searching, they found a pair of Georgia work boots. That's the brand that belonged to Dylan. And they're on the property behind the grain shed where the truck was backed in. The boots were being described as located directly south, directly west of James Brenner's trailer.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And they looked like they were just thrown into the brush, like they weren't lined up next to each other sitting there like someone took them off. Now, they James Brenner claim that Dylan must have thrown them away out there in the trash pile. So Brenner asked the police officer if he had found any blood on the boots, which the cop was like, pardon?
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
That's a weird question. You didn't find any blood on those boots, did you? What now? I thought you didn't even know they were there. What's up with that? Right. One of the boots appeared to have a dark spot on them consistent with some type of blood.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And speaking with the sergeant that was there, Brenner detailed to him that on the 28th day of May, when he arrived home, he noticed Dylan had parked his grain truck in the shed. And James said that he went to the shed where he had pens set up for his chickens and horse. and that he was mad that Dylan had knocked over all the pens in parking his grain truck.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I was mad at him. By the way, did he have blood on his shoes? Yeah, how about that? I got bracelets for you you might like. So it's real interesting here. They said the original meeting place was at the location where Dylan parks his grain truck. The land on the location is being occupied by James Brenner. They made contact with Brenner and talked to him about this shit.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Now, his original statement, he spoke with multiple individuals, Brenner did, and had been making the statement that he knew that someone had driven up and taken Dylan. So he's been telling everybody. And that Dylan wasn't just simply missing. He was taken. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Kidnapped. So Brenner said he believed that this is what happened because his gate was open and Dylan never leaves Brenner's gate open. Brenner also stated that when he noticed the gate, he saw there were tracks at the gate. And also he identified the tracks that were there in a way that they appeared to stop. And that's where Dylan was taken. He figured right here. He did. He detected it all up.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I just fucking Jerry Orbach the shit out of this thing. It's good.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Take off. Yep. The cop said as he spoke with Brenner, the cop learned that he what he was reporting to everyone was simply speculation and he had no actual knowledge of Dylan being taken. This is just your theory? Your amateur detective guess? And he was like, well, yeah. They were like, okay, so that's useless. Great, thanks.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I guess not, no. So the boots that they found turned out to be a big deal because the mother said those are the only pair of boots he has, Dylan.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
No. His mom said at that point it should have been treated as foul play. You just don't see someone's boots in the desert that's missing. We knew the first day we got out there when we saw Dylan's boots what happened to him. That's what the mother says. The mother knew already. The mother said, his boots are there. He's gone. This is fucked up. Found his boots. He's dead. He's dead.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, found his dad. He just died with his boots off. That's all. So they follow the trail here. They go to Montello, which is the town over the Nevada state line where he was last seen. And they said they went to the Cowboy Bar is what it's called. Big surprise there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Fuck, yeah. Well, I guess you can eat there, too. And they spoke with two Montello citizens to see if they knew anything about Dylan. They asked the bar owner if she had seen Dylan recently. The bar owner said that Dylan had not been in for about a week.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So they spoke with the bar patrons and, you know, they were told that Dylan was staying out in Lucent, which they already knew, and that that there were locals out looking for him as well. Like they're like, oh, there's people here out looking for him.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
We're going this place is really some kind of place. This is Lucin, Utah. L-U-C-I-N. And if people have never heard of it, it's because it's a ghost town at this point. Yeah, especially after what happened here. It's even more of a ghost town now. So, yeah, we'll talk a little bit about it. Not a lot of stats, but a little bit of some weird shit here.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So they asked the bar owner who Dylan spends time with, and she replied that he spends time with her son and that her son was out there looking for Dylan right now. Now, the daughter of the bar owner said that she heard Dylan had a confrontation with a man named Chase Venstra. Okay, now Chase Venstra is a local drifter with a long criminal record, and he's a mess, basically.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So the daughter said she was worried about this confrontation. She said that if Dylan walked back from where he left his grain truck and this Chase Vestra got a hold of him, something bad could have happened in that time, in that space between those two places. She explained that another individual in Montello had his face smashed in by the butt of a gun and his whole camper shell was destroyed.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And the people at the bar said that Chase that lives out in a motor home out on Church Street. And that's where, quote, all the drug users live.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, he's not a good cat in this town anyway. He's not considered one. So this young lady went on to reply that she'd heard it said that Chase was out there in a ghillie suit.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Oh, okay. Looks like a combat suit. Some kind of, okay.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I don't know. You've done that several, much different movie. But I would like to see Charlie Sheen fight the Predator, though. That would be great. That I'll watch. Fucking Willem Dafoe going after the Predator. That would be fun. Predator starring Tom Berringer. That's good stuff.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Okay. Well, she said he's out there in one of these suits and would attempt suicide by law enforcement if they came for him.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Ready to start a firefight with somebody. Yeah. So it was then stated that Dylan was driving down the road and Chase had stopped and asked Dylan for water. Chase then asked Dylan if he knew Kurt, which is another guy we'll talk about, and they got into an altercation somehow. Everybody fights over nothing in this town. There's two people around. And they're all mad at each other.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Two people in five square miles and they want to fight. Like, wouldn't you just want to talk to somebody? You'd be so lonely. Yeah. Jesus Christ. So they got into an altercation and Chase said Kurt was an asshole to which Dylan said he wasn't. Dylan said, no, he's not. He's a good guy. Yeah. Throw down, boy.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So then they spoke with more bar patrons and didn't receive any new information about Dylan and Chase. It was stated at the bar that Dylan was a good kid and didn't do drugs. They were told that Chase does do drugs quite often. And outside of multiple rumors and second to third hand information, they found nothing further. So they drove back to Lucerne to talk to some other people here.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They talked to a guy named Kevin Bibbins, and they talked to him about a half hour. He said his property was burned down at one point. Bibbins was? Yeah, this is the craziest place ever, dude.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
It's in northwest Utah over out over there, about three hours to Salt Lake City, about three and a half hours to Pleasant Grove, Utah, Utah, our last Utah episode, which was Dr. Serial Killer. That was a good one. This is in Box Elder County. Box Elder. Box Elder. Two separate words. I don't know. Elder has something to do with Mormonism, I'm sure, because they call each other Elder. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Wow. And detailed a time when he was assaulted by Brenner as well, James Brenner. When the talk turned to Dylan, Kevin didn't have any information about what may have happened to him, but he did say that Brenner is kind of a nut and attacked him one time. So then this cop went out to the property where Brenner was and where Dylan parked the grain truck.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The cop searched inside of the grain truck to see if maybe Dylan's phone or wallet may have been left inside. Yeah. And the cop said he was informed that Dylan's family had already gone through the truck, but he said he searched it again and didn't find anything except a phone charging cord. So there's about that.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Now, this is when the cops find out that the family has not only put up a $20,000 reward, it also had an old picture of Chase Venstra and stated that they were offering a $5,000 reward for information on locating Chase.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Fucking wild, man. That is crazy shit. So then they talk about that they found, there's a guy, I swear to God, his name is Joe Glasscock.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He's the wine cup ranch manager, Joey Glasscock. That's the wine is a wine wine cup ranch. It's just called wine cup. But the word wine is in glass. It's just too much. So he's talked about an incident with Chase Venstra. He said about a week ago he was driving on the highway toward the wine cup ranch. We saw Chase lying on the side of the highway dressed in camouflage in a ghillie suit.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
In a ghillie suit, Joe said he recognized Chase from prior employment, so he stopped to check on him. According to Joe, Chase started to approach the vehicle while carrying a rifle.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And he's stopping to go, are you okay? And this guy's approaching him with a rifle.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So according to Joe, he said that Glasscock said he was concerned enough for his safety that he had a gun out on his vehicle seat, but Chase didn't continue all the way to the vehicle. Joe said that after his interaction with Chase, Chase walked east on the railroad tracks where Joe believed that he would come across Dylan. According, that's when Dylan ran into him.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Chase was barefoot and needed water and his phone charged. And that's when Dylan let him charge his phone and gave him water. So there's a thing that happens there. According to Joe, Chase appeared to be under the influence of some type of narcotic based on his odd behavior and mannerisms. He said that he would that he saw him.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He said after the pickup left, Chase got up and I could see he was wearing camouflage clothing and a tan military style backpack. He was carrying a tan assault rifle with a scope. He crossed the highway and started walking toward loosen. I asked him what he was doing and he said, quote, just trying to stay out of trouble. I said, with an assault rifle? Yeah. And he said, it's just a pea shooter.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And that was the last he saw of him. Okay. All right. So, more on Chase. Later on that day, they talked to Candace, Dylan's mom. And Dylan said, or Dylan's mom said that Dylan had told her he was driving on Tacoma Road when Chase ran out of the bushes bloody and high on drugs. Uh-huh. According to Candace, Chase did not have any shoes on and wanted a ride from Dylan.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Dylan didn't feel comfortable giving him a ride due to his erratic behavior. So Dylan reportedly left Chase with water and contacted Chase's father to inform him about Chase so he could pick him up. So that's another incident he's had with him. So that's interesting. Now, very, very interesting. Now, they talk a little bit about Dylan.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They said he had purchased his own land, and they're talking about all this. They talked to the parents more about Chase to see if maybe there was some other stuff with Chase that happened. You know what I mean? Did he threaten your son? Did your son say anything about that and all that shit? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
After they interviewed the family, they went back to the property that the grain truck was parked on. At that time, they had another sergeant there. They took a bunch of pictures, and Brenner was there the entire time and walked around with the cops while they tried to separate from him. They said they couldn't get away from him. Where are you going, guys? He wouldn't leave them the fuck alone.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So a little bit of history. This town was founded in the late 1800s, originally about 10 miles north of its current location. And it was only here to provide water. It's a water stop for railroads to replenish their steam locomotives. That's the only reason why it's here. Then in the 1903, the town moved.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He wanted to see exactly what they were doing, which is odd when you add that with, is there any blood on that boot?
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, this is weird. So June 3rd, 2022, they think Chase is on the run here. Cops are trying to interview Chase, but they were unsuccessful getting in contact with him. They couldn't find him, but they were left a voicemail. They were advised, though, by friends that Chase had been making posts on Facebook about Dylan's disappearance, saying that he wasn't involved in any way.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Which is super weird when you're posting on Facebook that you weren't involved. He posted that we would have not been in contact with him. But at one point he said he wasn't even out there at the time and that he already had spoken to Candace about it and was cleared by her and the private investigator. Oh, if you're cleared by the cops, tell the cops that.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
But the FBI is involved in this and shit like this.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So it's pretty fucking interesting. So they said the deputy said that he was a deputy told the detective that he was Chase's neighbor growing up and that Chase had been sending him text messages about Dylan. Chase told this deputy that he had no involvement in the disappearance and he wasn't even out there after the 25th of May.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
At one point, he stated that he did talk to a private investigator and was cleared of any involvement. And he said that the Box Elder County Sheriff's Office just wants to arrest him and leave him in jail while they continue the investigation. So that's why he's hiding. He also said everything that anybody said about him was total bullshit, quote-unquote.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So then they found out, though, that Chase had a seventy five thousand dollar arrest warrant out of Montana for a domestic incident. Oh, so they got in contact with other sheriff to try to find him and all that kind of thing. They finally get Chase in there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They get him here. And he said the last time he talked to Dylan was when he drove him to the Tacoma Crossroads. So they talked to him. He said that I don't know anything about it. That's just all he did. He said he gave the exactly where he was. I mean, everything he said on the 28th of May at six o'clock, he was at Little Caesars Pizza.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Then he bought beer and went home like, oh, that is a rough night. It's a rough gastrointestinal night. Pizza and Little Caesars or Little Caesars and beer and beer. Oh, boy.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They moved it to its site now to serve as a stop for the Lucerne Cut-Off, which was another railroad thing there. The town's population consisted mainly of employees of the Central and Southern Pacific Railroads back in the day. In 1936, the town was completely abandoned and then resettled by a group of four retired railroad workers and their children.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So Chase said some more information about things that were occurring in the desert here. He said that Dylan and Kurt Wadsworth might be in a relationship with one another. Kurt is the bar owner's kid, I believe, said that he thought they might be in a relationship with one another and described that he has seen Kurt dress up in dresses.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
OK, he told the cops that he believes that Kurt could be attempting to, quote, set him up, meaning me setting me up chase. He also said that when he was out in that area, he had his boys SKS rifle, shotgun and pistol stated that the pistol was stolen. And he informed the cops that he thinks Kurt's place would be a good place to look for Dylan and that he hopes Kurt hasn't hurt Dylan. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, that's what he's claiming. No one else is saying this, by the way. That's a wild accusation. It's a lot, yeah. All we've heard are crazy rumors and innuendos, and this is small-town gossip. That's all this is.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Nope. So they interview Brenner again. They keep talking to him. They talked to him on the 7th. They talked to him June 7th and then June 11th. And they serve a search warrant on his trailer. During that search, they found ball ammunition, ignition caps, black powder, speed loads, all related to muzzle loading, which were photographed in the trailer.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They didn't seize them at the time, but they're going to go back and he's going to get arrested for weapons charges again because he's not allowed to have that. June 8th, 2022, there's a tip that comes in here. They spoke with an individual who remained anonymous, and they said that, okay, Dylan Rounds and Kurt Wadsworth lived inside the Saddlesore bar together, which sounds like a gay bar.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I know it's not, but that sounds like your butthole sore because you've been getting it pounded all night. That's what that sounds like.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
If you were in a city and you saw the Saddlesore Bar, you'd go, that's a gay bar. That's a gay bar. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. So this guy stated that Wadsworth and potentially Dylan were running around with loaded guns and wondered if there was potentially an accident.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
It was reported that multiple individuals had been running around Montello, Nevada area with loaded guns trying to catch people committing thefts. probably some crazy, probably some, probably some YouTube bullshit where they're trying to, yeah. Uh, they were previously referred to being vigilantes, but I was unable to actually obtain information confirming that this was actually transpiring.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
This is the cop talking. This is from his report in the Montello of Nevada relation to Dylan rounds. The vast majority of these statements were third person and could not be verified or confirmed at all. Um, the, uh,
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
This person also stated that the Wadsworth family that's in Montello, Nevada, was Barbara, Troy, Kurt, and Scott, and he said they ran a lot of things in town, including the saddle sore and cowboy bars. They also said that Troy Wadsworth had been seen with multiple scratches on his forearm, and he had stated he crashed a three-wheeler.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
But this guy said, I went and looked at his three-wheeler, and it didn't have any scratches on it. So, you know...
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So, and then this guy said, or whoever this is, this anonymous person said that Kurt has a backhoe that was out in loosen and explained that Kurt knows the mines and other areas that could be used to hide a body. So they're trying to put this on Kurt big time. So anyway, Brenner's arrested for all the weapons violations here. Yeah. They also go out to Dylan's property.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They talk to Dylan's grandfather, Larry. And he told he told the cops that Brenner and Don Hatley had gone into town grocery shopping and that they recently spoke with Don Hatley and they were almost on their way back to Lucent. So they're waiting to arrest Brenner here. So they're going to do that. They get Brenner in cuffs.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They decided we're going to start a town again here.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And this cop approached Don Hatley and inquired if the gate access to Brenner's trailer was secured or not. Don said it was open, but he could go and close it. Don't leave his gate open, which is a nice gesture by the cops. So the cop asked Don about Brenner's horse on the property that he needed to keep in the fenced area.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Don said that he does have a horse and stated that he needed Brenner's keys. Brenner said that Don would secure and lock the gate. I told him that Don was about to get the keys. Brenner started to get upset. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Brenner angrily said he doesn't want anyone in there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He was irate and said that people go in and out of there and they don't close the gate and he has to go and look for his horse and it gets out of the gate and he says that he has to go up to the mountains to find his horse, which is bullshit.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They came back about 37. So the next year, there was people there until 1972, and then no one lived there anymore.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah. So this is fucking amazing. So Don said that Brenner had been living on his own property in the Nevada side of the state line before his trailer burned down. And that's why he went to live on Dylan's property. Don continued to explain that one day Brenner looked out his window and there were two people stealing a winch off his truck.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He explained that Brenner hollered at them, but they just flipped him off.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I'd expect some desert trailer hermit to come out bucking shots, wouldn't you?
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Not only that, just if I see that, I expect the guy on the old Mountain Dew can to come out. Like a long beard and a hat firing a fucking shotgun in the air. Yeah. Talking about, get off my property, Tennessee Valley Authority. Those are very expensive.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
No. At this point, according to Don, Brenner had a black powdered pistol and shot at the individuals, which will happen. Don did state that he does think that Dylan went and parked the grain truck on the property that Brenner was living on without calling Brenner to come and open the gate for him.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So, OK, now Brenner's statement, he said that Don Hatley, they're talking about what happened the day that he was gone, that Dylan disappeared. He said at approximately 1300 to 1400 hours, he left the farm where the trailer is located. He said that Don Hatley was cooking ribs and they were going to watch Yellowstone.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
this is i'm gonna go watch some cosner is what i'm gonna do so uh living life on the range watching shows about watching shows about living going these people are full of shit are they doing it just to call out how full of shit they are that ain't right right there hey now you hook up a horse trailer like tv's a break from reality so you don't have to think about day-to-day shit they're watching shows about their day-to-day shit and
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Then in 1997, a guy named Ivo Zdarsky, who was an aviation engineer or entrepreneur and manufacturer of the Ivo prop, which is a plane propeller. He invented it. He bought it and moved there. He bought the airport. He bought the whole town. Not the whole town, but the airport and a bunch of land, basically. Okay. So he did that as of 2016, except for intermittent people stopping people.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
All I do is watch police interrogations and shit, so I guess it's the same thing.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, they get it. Apparently, when you move out to the middle of nowhere, you just want to kill all your neighbors, apparently.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
fuck so Brenner stated that before he went to Don's residence he went to loosen pond to gather wood and water because it's on the way to Don's Brenner said that he arrived home about 2100 hours and when he came over the hill he saw Dylan's grain truck he told the cops that Dylan was the kind of kid who does whatever the hell he wants and doesn't tell you anything Brenner said that Dylan backed the grain truck in the shed and moved Brenner's stuff out of the way Brenner also said that Dylan had broken some of his property
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So according to Brenner, he didn't think anything of it until Don called him the next day and asked if he'd seen Dylan. Brenner stated that he was looking around outside. He found what he stated were two tracks of 10-wheelers going one in and one out.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Brenner stated that he didn't use the front gate there and that he noticed Dylan had unhooked the wires to the gate because it was locked and he wanted access. Brenner further said that Dylan or somebody had wired the gate back up and he felt that Dylan had left the grain truck and exited the property.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So as he continued, he named Chase Venstra and explained how Chase had been a problem in both Montello and Lucen. He said that he knew who, quote, who, quote, over there uses methamphetamine. And he continued explaining that the different items and places he felt Chase had stolen from both him and other victims in the area.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He said that Brenner said he saw a black truck on Chase's property that he knew was responsible for blowing up his trailer. So this guy says that Chase blew up his trailer. Okay. He relayed frustrations that the Elko County Sheriff's Department won't go and investigate the incidents. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They said they let him speak without too much interruption, even though he was trying to move the conversation away from Dylan's disappearance. So but that's what he wants to talk about. Basically, he said that Dylan drinks beer. And one time around the Fourth of July, Dylan arrived back to loosen from Twin Falls, Idaho, and had the entire back of his truck loaded with beer.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He stated that Dylan stored the beer in one of the trailers he had on his farm property. He also said that Dylan borrowed money from him to purchase that trailer, borrowed money from a desert squatter.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Brenner also said that Dylan was in the bar and Montello bragging about how much money he had. Brenner continued to make allegations and name individuals that he stated were into drugs and stealing things. He also made allegations about crimes he stated he knew as a fact, but ultimately was being told this information. He wasn't present to any of these described.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He just described every bit of gossip of every crime that he's heard about in the last five years to these people. So Brenner told us he believes that Dylan was involved in a strong arm robbery and he believes it was Chase Venstra and Robert Avila's. And Brenner reported that he believes Dylan wouldn't give them money and it escalated. Chase sounds pretty dangerous. He does.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
When asked about the bar, Brenner stated that he did not think that Kurt or Troy Wadsworth would have anything to do with this incident. He explained that Kurt was too good to Dylan and allowed him to sleep in the bar when Dylan had had too much alcohol and couldn't drive home. He doesn't live there with him. He sleeps in the bar when he's too drunk.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They let him fucking put a cot on a table in the fucking back.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, it's his land. So Brenner told the cops that Dylan had a shotgun he would keep in the backseat of his truck, and they found that in Rigby, Idaho, with his family. Brenner stated that Dylan also had a handgun that he had already found. Brenner commented that Dylan would often keep the handgun in his truck's console, but did not keep it loaded all the time.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Remember, he'd be better off throwing it. Brenner said he told Dylan that he either needs to learn how to use the pistol or put it somewhere because it would end up getting him killed. And then he commented that it was a little late for that, referring to the pistol, and said that he was telling Dylan's dad, Justin, that as well. He just had him killed off already.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So he went back to stating he believes Chase and the drug users were the ones responsible for the disappearance. He went off about Kevin Bibbins saying that he would be the only one going around out and loose in a Montello carrying a gun. This is a mess. So they explained to him that Dylan's boots were out where they were located there and they had to be taken out there by someone.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Brenner talked about Dylan telling his grandmother or somebody on the phone. And he said that Chase didn't have boots. Remember? So he probably did. Well, then what he would have probably worn them then not left them in a fucking field. So this guy said, I told Brenner that it was odd that there didn't appear to be any vehicle tracks out to the location of the boots.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
We're going to talk about in this show because they were there and all of that kind of thing. And Zdarsky, there really wasn't anybody there. Like it was just maybe five people. This Zdarsky lived alone in an airplane hangar. That's it. That's what he did when they asked him why he moved to the desert. He said, quote, I escaped from Czechoslovakia. Then I was in California and then I moved here.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And he explained that someone had to have taken the boots out there as it's too far for the boots to just be thrown out there by someone. They then asked him, is there any reason that your DNA would be found on these boots?
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Brenner said that if he picked them up, there might be some fingerprints on them and that his fingerprints are on everything out there. Everything in the vast desert has fingerprints on it.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
We hang out all the time. My fingerprints are on none of your shoes. None of them. And you have multiple pairs. This guy's only pair of shoes are always on his feet. Was he going down checking his toe to see if he's growing out of them?
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Do that all the time. So Brenner stated that he did pick up a boot out there and threw it. Before he said he doesn't know how they got out there. Now he goes, oh, yeah, I did pick it up and throw it. Yeah, that's how that happened.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So they're like, interesting. He told us that he never saw the boots we recovered and didn't know if it was one of those boots, but he's touched some of Dylan's something. He described that he was walking out to catch his horse on a path and came across a boot that he threw out of the way. That might have been the same boot.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So they search his area, Brenner's area here, and now they have some phone activity. So they have phone activity between him and Brennan, basically. Yeah. And the way it ends up happening is their phones line up perfectly at some point to where all of their movements are together.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And then Dylan's phone doesn't have any more movements and Brenner's goes about its day.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Keeps moving. So they said that Dylan's phone appeared to move around the property until 1101 hours where it goes stationary on the property for three hours and 36 minutes. Okay. It's 1101 a.m. It goes stationary, which he's on a property doing things that wouldn't be stationary. Then the phone moves again at 1437, where it travels from the barn to Lucent Pond.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Remember, that's the same exact time Brenner said he was at Lucent Pond. And by the way, his phone is also at Lucent Pond at this time. The route that Dylan's phone takes is on the road that Brenner refers to as the back way. And Brenner has stated on multiple occasions he doesn't use the little Pigeon Mountain Road to go to the main entrance. He uses the back way.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The phone arrives at the pond at 14.52 hours, and that's the last movement of the phone. The final time stamp on his phone is 14.53.55. Also, so they analyzed all of Brenner's. Everything mirrors everything until the pond. And then Brenner goes on with his day. So they went, huh. That pretty much says it all. We just watched what happened. So they find it in the water in the pond.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah. They find the phone. The polygraph now. They bring him in. They tell him he's going to do a polygraph. Brenner. He does it. They tell him you didn't do well on that at all. You did very poorly. So they end up there. He's in there anyway for the for the guns.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So after the polygraph, they interviewed him again and told him they asked him if there's anything other than Dylan's boots and inside Dylan's truck that could have his DNA on it. He told investigators that Dylan's trailer is another item that would have DNA on it. He also included the tractor. And they said, have you ever handled his cell phone? And he said, no, absolutely not.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So they found out that he did, obviously. So that's a problem. June 20th, 2022, there's a neighbor here, Donald Hatley. They talked to him a little bit more. And they talk about that Brenner. Okay. They said on June 7th, Brenner brought three black powder guns to his house and asked him to, quote, safe keep them.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Hang on. Like Godfather 2 when he passes him the thing. Hang on to this for me through the window. So when the – just in case you didn't realize, I watched Godfather 2 recently because I made two references in an hour. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They're both great, but I like it better. Yeah. When the neighbor asked why here, Brenner said that he needed to do this for his own safety and that the last time he had trouble with the law, they took everything from him and he didn't want his things to be taken again. So he brought a 22 caliber rifle and some shit like that.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He explained that the rifle had been left on the, in a trailer on the property where Brenner had been living prior to Brenner living there by a person who owed Brenner money. Oh, so that's what that goes on here. So, um, yeah. So Donald Hatley talks about a little bit more about Dylan and, uh, he said that Brenner had potential to fly off the handle and get fired. extremely violent when upset.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He talked about several incidents when that happened there. So they keep talking to this Donald Hatley because they think that he might have some info as a neighbor. But all he has, he has a lot of innuendo and all that. So he said that he liked Dylan and that he wanted to help because he believed in Dylan's vision, not villain's vision.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
to start a farm in Lucerne, and he felt like a father type to Dylan, and he wanted to help him out. So there's that. Now, this guy said he knew Brenner since he lived in Montello, and he'd seen Brenner two to three times a week since Brenner's been in Lucerne, and he said if Brenner did kill Dylan, he didn't know where Brenner would hide a body.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He bought 400 acres for $99,000. That's why he moved. Yeah, that included the Lucent Airport as well.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He said that he and Dylan did some exploring together at the Williams Place, or Hatley described being north between Brenner's Place and Dylan's Place on the other side of the mountain. He did say that if Brenner did kill Dylan, he would not probably find the body easily out there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So anyway, June 25th, they get more tips to police from complete about completely different people. A guy said that they had a friend near Area 51. Oh, God. They said that a female said the guy was named Justin Hayward, but goes by the rap music name Lil Eric. So she's blaming Lil Eric on this. That's what's going on here. Lil Eric killed him.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Oh, my God. So when they get the phone out of... That's a terrible rap name. When they get the phone out of the pond, that's when everything breaks open. Because the opportunity and the phones being together make Brenner look very guilty.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Little Eric did this, bitch. Left his calling card. I'm not afraid of little Eric. No. No. No little Eric. It's a bad rap name. So while they're searching the phone, they actually recover his phone and recover data from his phone despite it being in a pond. Oh, shit.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Nope. There was media located that clearly shows that the phone was in a trailer and was identified as Brenner's trailer. There's a picture. This is fucked up. The time frame is consistent with Dylan first arriving on the property in the morning of May 28th. The media recording was originally moving at a high speed, then was converted to a lower speed recording by the FBI.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Brenner can be seen in the video wiping off a revolver consistent with his black powder revolver and a red substance consistent with blood appears on his left elbow, wrist, and hand.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Problem was the airport was just a runway. There wasn't even a building. There's no Cinnabon in there or anything. None of that shit. It's just a runway. That's it. So he made a hanger. He built the hanger, a 50-foot steel hanger. No windows, no anything like that. He just lives in a metal box in the middle of the desert.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I don't know. I don't know if he did it on purpose. Did it on accident maybe? But Brenner is seen wearing a camouflage t-shirt and at multiple points in the recording it appears he's standing over the phone. They end up going to his house and finding that t-shirt with Dylan's bloodstains on it.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Not fucking good at all. Yeah, very, very bad. They also found a bunch of other stuff with Dylan's blood on it. They have Brenner's touch DNA on the boots.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
It's so technologically fast. And then the shirt is the big one, though. They literally find the fucking shirt he was wearing when he did it. The video comes right when Dylan went missing. It is not good at all here. They also find a hat.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
as well a john deere hat that his mother said dylan's mother says a rare special edition john deere hat that he purchased and worn and it was confirmed that that was what he was wearing and james was wearing the hat when they arrested him he was wearing dylan's hat dylan's hat he took the hat it's Fucked up. So they they're still looking for his body, though. They haven't found his body.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay, choo-choo. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They look around. They find a bag of bones in the desert and they find out that they're not human bones. They thought maybe that was it. They find a clump of Justin. The dad found a clump of skin and hair. Turns out not his.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Don't know. I'm telling you, this place is wild. So they charge Brenner with murder anyway, obviously, here. Then the parents start sending Brenner emails begging for the body.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah. Grandpa sent one that said, Jim, this is Larry. On May 30th, you said Dylan should learn how to use a gun. A gun can't do you any good if all you know how to do is throw it at someone. Did Dylan throw his gun on you at you on May 28th? What did he do to make you so mad? I would really like to hear it from you. I have some questions I hope you can answer.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
My phone number is and gives it out and said, or you can text me. There is money on this account for either one. In other words, if you call me, I'll give you money. I'll pay you to tell me what the fuck happened. So anyway, he decides to make a plea bargain.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yep. He admits it. He said, I did it. I killed him. Fuck it. He does it. The prosecutors are working with the parents of Dylan to come out with different options and sentencing outcomes to finalize a plea deal here. So in part of this, he's required to tell all about the case, including the location of the body. That's part of it. Sure. So he leads police to the body.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
It is way out in the middle of the desert in Lucerne, just in the middle of the desert under a pile of fucking shit. And he's skeletonized by now. Ah, Jesus. This happens about a year and a half later. So he's basically a skeleton. Just last year. Yeah. 2023 is when they found the body. So this took this long. They finally found him. He's been gunshot wounds is what did it.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They think they shot him with a 22 rifle, I believe here.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So Dylan's mom said, that's it. Just mad. It was that he was just mad because he told Brenner told the cops that he was mad that Dylan put his truck in the shed that day. That's why he killed him. Annoyed by the truck in the shed.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Absolutely. So he says some people drop by when they're exploring because they don't know. They're like, oh, someone lives here. They don't believe it. They're like, what is this? He says, you always run into people. And they said, well, how often is always out here? And he says, if you define seeing people by seeing a car driving by, maybe once a week. So once a week he sees a car drive by.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And he said that we're definitely – he said we've been waiting for it. It's a giant elephant out of the room. It's a relief in that sense, the mom said. Okay. Sentencing comes around. The defense and the prosecution agreed to recommend a minimum of three and maximum of 30 years in prison at sentencing.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The judge requested that Brenner stand and face the gallery, which was filled with villains, friends and family. And he he refused.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
what he said nope not gonna do it so the judge said I am going to recommend to the parole board that they keep you as long as they legally can you sir may fuck off one to 15 years in prison for each of the three counts he pleaded guilty and he's been given credit for like a year and change time served so it's three year minimum that's what he's got they'll run consecutively recommend they hang on to him for 15 years
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
For 45, because consecutive. So that's the most he can possibly get is 45. Holy shit. So that's a lot. The mother said it shouldn't have been an option. It should be 25 to life. But the justice system forced us into this type of plea. Since then, they've set up a nonprofit to honor Dylan's memory and to get resources for families who are searching for missing loved ones, which is very cool.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
It's so fucked. Yeah, it's Dylan's legacy is what it's called.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
That is fucked up, man. This is all fucked up. He went out there, he just...
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Just wanted to grow grain. He wanted to be fucking just like feed people.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
The hardest job. It's hard. So there's poor Dylan. The most information we've ever had on a case in this. Everybody's interviews. It was so much to sift through. So get through the end real quick here. Definitely, if you like that, tell everyone you know. Give us five stars on whatever app you're listening to. Definitely head over to shutupandgivememurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
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Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
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Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
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Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
At least a car. He says that's always seeing people. You always run into people, you know.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
As they fly by at 75 miles an hour, I consider that a relationship.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
It's so wild. He said that the post office won't deliver there, but UPS and FedEx will deliver there. So he can get shit delivered.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He used to get delivery from the Schwan's food truck. Oh, yeah. Which makes those little frozen pizzas. And they'd bring him prepared meals, but he canceled it because he gained too much weight, he said. He was gaining too much weight. Couldn't do it. He says he's got great internet speed out there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He said, so I'm on Amazon ordering stuff, and then UPS will bring it to me in the middle of nowhere.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Amazing. Very quickly, I have to talk about it. It's called they call it there's an oasis in the desert is approaching there. You see, you said you can see a clump of lush green trees about three miles to the south and southwest. And apparently a small four inch pipe originating in the pilot mountain range to the southwest supplies water there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So there was ponds. There's ponds here, too. There's the Lucerne Pond and everything else. So, yeah, there's also some telephone booths there. Really? That are like old, old abandoned telephone booths.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Thank you, folks, so much for joining us all aboard the murder train, pulling away from the station. We got, of course, a crazy one, as always, on Small Town Murder, and, of course, Small Town Murder Express. We're going to stuff 10 pounds of murder in a two-pound bag, and we really have that this week, because we have... We'll be right back.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
You can get land there, Jimmy. Look at the pictures of this land.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
That's got a mountain in it at least. It's a good view.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
80 acres. 80 acres. 500 bucks an acre basically. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And then here's one 640 acres, 320 grand. That's unbelievable. That is so cheap. There's nothing there, obviously. Speaking of that- How far to Salt Lake?
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Three hours. Okay. Yeah, not commutable at all now. Things to do here. Well, not much, honestly. Popular stop for people that look for rocks. Rock people. Apparently, there's an apple green chert-like phosphate mineral, varisite, that's in this area. They look for that. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
If you see that, it's not an apple. And there is a large artwork here that actually plays into our story a little bit here. It's mentioned called the Sun Tunnels, which was created by an artist named Nancy Holt in 1976. It's just concrete tubes in the desert. Sun Tunnels. Look at this.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
They look like things that people would hide in from, like, prison dogs that are chasing them, except these are just out in the deserts. They're not underground.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
It is fucking wild, man. So that said, let's talk about a murder here. This is May 31st, 2022. Oh, so recently. So recently. It just happened. 8.30 a.m. here. Okay. A detective is called to about a missing person reported in this area in the Lucent, Utah area. So they have to drive all the way the fuck out here. There's no police station in Lucent.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
I believe it's the county, the Box Elder County sheriffs or whatever. So the Box Elder County search and rescue had already responded to the area and they were requesting police assistance. So this detective arrived and, you know, talked to some people and found out who was missing and what was going on here. and found out that it is a 19-year-old young man who's missing named Dylan Rounds.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
He's 19 years old, and he's got a weird story. He seems like kind of a cool kid. He's from Rigby, Idaho, originally. And at this point in 2022, he's living by himself in a camp trailer where he farms grain out there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
19. It's his dream to have a farm in the middle of nowhere where he makes grain or grows grain. Tough kid. Yeah, that's what I mean. That's an interesting dream for a kid. And he owns land. Wow. Like he and his father and grandfather chipped in and bought this piece of land so he could like farm it and all this type of thing. It's pretty interesting, honestly.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
His mother said Dylan was out building his life. His lifelong dream was to have his own farm. He spent the last two summers ripping out and redeveloping that ground on his own. He got his water rights. He did everything. And this year his grain was finally coming up. He finally got a crop. He got his pivot up. It was a fully functional farm.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So, cranking. Dylan, doing great. Now he's missing. Good. Not good. Yeah. I mean, it seems like he could have just wandered off, but you could see people for like eight miles in every direction.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, I can see it all. So apparently the original this is the cop gets here, the detective, he gets filled in and he's told that Dylan spoke with his grandmother on the phone on the morning of May 28th, this day that they were there called out here. And he was told that he told his grandmother he's going to be parking his seed truck. He was on the phone, and he said, oh, no, it started raining.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
So he had to take his truck to park it in a shed, basically, a grain shed where he kept his shit there, which is a couple miles away on this area. So he's got to go park it there. So he said he had to stop working and go do that on the property. Now, the shed is where a guy is squatting, by the way. There's a guy named James Brenner who squats in the shed and like squats. That guy's story.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Oh, man, he's got an interesting story. Oh, I believe it. He needed to come out here because he was not doing well in regular society. I believe it. Too many people, not good for him. This guy shouldn't be around many people here. So I guess then he said, I'm going to go put the truck away and then I'll call you back, is what he said. So that's on his cell phone here. But he never called back.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
And then nobody could get in contact with him in any way. So people came out to look for him. He wasn't there. They called the cops, and this is what happens now. So this detective was told by the police station here that Dylan's phone had been pinged, and the last location was returned to a little over a 15-mile radius because there's not a lot of cell towers out there.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
If you're in a concentrated area, there's cell towers everywhere. They can coordinate it more. But if you're out there where there's one cell tower, anywhere in this- Service is 15 miles. That's it. So they were trying to figure out the distance of the radius. They were like, there was no direction in which to search. A 15-mile radius is huge.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
That's great. It's so big. It's so big. It's such a big area. So it's not a good – if you have like three cops, it's going to take you a month to search a 15-mile radius. For sure. It's going to take forever. So they can't really do that. So they said there was a shelter on a section of land owned by box elder land and livestock that was adjacent to this property here. I guess so.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Dylan is doing all this. I guess this James Brenner was using the storage shed to sleep in, hang out in and to store stuff. Both of them lived in off-the-grid trailers. I guess he had a little trailer, too, James Brenner. But he was also sleeping in the shed sometimes for some reason. Doesn't make any sense. So this guy doesn't make a lot of sense.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
James Adrian Brenner, who was 58 at the time in 2022. So way different than Dylan. I mean, totally three generations away.
Small Town Murder
#574 - Murder Selfies - Lucin, Utah
Yeah, to me, this is like a 41-year-old's lifestyle.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
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Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
of all get your tickets for the virtual live show it is april the 19th it's our 420 virtual live show just like a regular live show except you can be anywhere in the world you want to be that has internet you can get it we'll have the pictures and everything else we'll wear costumes and on top of that it is 420 so i have a bunch of crazy bongs and things of that nature to scare the crap out of jimmy it's going to be a lot of fun we'll go hard yeah
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yeah. He knows everything. He is the fucking jizz sage over here. That's him. So Kirk, like we say, the 14-year-old, things fall on him. He's a freshman at Marshfield High School. He's entered calves in the local fair, stuff like that. He's a farm boy. He's a little farm kid. He almost drowned two years earlier in 1985 in a local pond.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
His friend Bill Shoemaker ended up getting a medal from the Carnegie Hero Fund Commission for saving him and pulling him out of the water.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Apparently. Yeah. This was two summers ago where Shoemaker, Kirk Buckner and a guy named Daryl Carr. They were fishing on a pond on the farm of Dean Dugan in Elkland. And Buckner went for a swim and almost fucking drowned. Apparently it was July of 1985. And the bill, his friend said, I knew he couldn't swim. So I just went out there and got him.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And a neighbor said, if it wasn't for little Billy, Kirk would be gone. He'd be dead.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Dude, there's swimming holes and everything else. How do you not know how to swim?
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yeah, why are you going out past where you can stand up? So, yeah, I guess that's, I guess, you know, that's what happened there. Bill said that, he said there wasn't much else to say about it. We were friends. It was just something between us. And he said, quote, I'd do it again. That's nice. I wouldn't let, I'd change my mind. I'd let him drown this time.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And for the most part is in charge of caring for all three of his younger brothers, including the two year old. what do mom and dad do? Well, dad is out. Dad's semen. He's literally, he's out of town all the time. They say like, he's not home very often cause he's out working.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He goes to like distant farms to set up their, you know, their swimmers to get their, their semen fridge going up and running. So they said Kirk would return each afternoon from classes at the vocational agricultural program at Marshfield high school, which makes sense for a kid like that. He's going to be a farmer. I mean,
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He's just going to have to do it. The newspaper article says, though, that he would come home, quote, to one of the town's few unkempt houses where his heavyset mother, Jan 36, presided amid the squalor.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
two pile it's basically trash thrown it's he it's based what way do you hear the next line it's basically who's eating gilbert grape is going on around here except no one has down syndrome what's eating not who's oh who's eating what's eating Sorry, 30-year-old irrelevant movie. I got the title wrong. This is a guy who mispronounces Pamela, and he's going to fucking correct me.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Or maybe that. Who knows? Who's eating Johnny Duck's ass? Going down on Gilbert Grape, actually. Was he Gilbert? Gilbert?
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yes, yeah, that's right, Gilbert. And I remember my grandmother being very sad and then being very happy when she saw Titanic because she said, oh, mother boy, he's not, he's okay. She doesn't understand, she didn't understand acting and she thought he was really, yeah. Pretty good at it. Yeah, she was so happy when she saw Titanic. That's the boy. I'm so happy.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He was a handsome young boy and he had the problems.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
We're going hard. Can't wait to do that. And also get your tickets for regular live shows while you're there. Chicago, May, you are up.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So the cardicle goes on to say two piles of garbage lay just outside the door. Candy wrappers and old boots were strewn out in front under a five-foot maple tree where a ramshackle ladder of two-by-fours had been nailed to the trunk. Here's a quote from an Elkland resident. Quote, she weighed 300 pounds and never took a bath. Then he said, quote, don't quote me by name. I've got to live here.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's what he said to the newspaper. Never took a bath. That's the main problem.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
You can be heavy set, but fucking bathe yourself. Jesus Christ. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So another neighbor said his dad was never home. It got too much for Kirk. You take a 14 year old and have him go to school and take care of a bunch of kids and milk the cows. And that's day after day. I think the boy just had nothing to look forward to. That's how I feel. Yeah. So Kirk has got problems. Sometimes he'd have to miss school because the farm work was too overwhelming.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So he couldn't go to school that day. Teets are just engorged. Jesus Christ, if I don't get them, they're going to be all chafed. So other times he would visit neighbors asking them for odd jobs to earn money because he needed money. So he's doing all this and trying to find odd jobs, too. This is way too much responsibility for a 14-year-old. It's ridiculous. It's crazy.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
St. Louis the night before is sold out. Chicago at the Riviera, get your tickets. And for the rest of the year, too, because we've got a bunch of them selling out. San Diego, Grand Rapids, Madison, Portland. So if you want to go in the second half of the year, I would get them now. That's shutupandgivememurder.com. Also, you want Patreon. There we go. My goodness.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
But he never apparently he would never bitch to adults. That's the thing. He would only complain to his friends once in a while, but he wouldn't ever complain to the people who could change the situation for him. Although I don't know what could be changed. It's a tough life. They're trying to make ends meet. There's really dad can't go.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
I'll come home and take care of everything because then they lose the farm completely and they have nothing.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
At least that. Um, one friend, uh, one of the guys he was fishing with actually that when he almost drowned said he complained about milking getting up so early. Um, and then another kid here, uh, said Kirk's father and mother just sat around the house and he was out feeding the cows, milking them.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Uh, he was, uh, they said, you know, this week coming up that he was cutting stuff and told us he was tired. One kid said a bunch of times last summer, Kirk told us, I'm just sick of doing everything around here. And what ends up happening is the dairy business suffers, you know, because a 14 year old isn't capable of running his own dairy farm while he's got school during the day.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Unfortunately, yeah, that's tough. And said it was just too much for a 14 year old to handle the milk because the conditions of the farm were deteriorating because he couldn't keep up with everything. The milk was given a C grade by inspectors. Oh, no. Meaning a major loss of income because they pay you based on the quality of it.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yep. So there were rumors that foreclosures were in the works on the farm and everything like that. So it's it's it's a lot. Neighbors near here believe that this kid just it's a lot on him. One neighbor said more can be put on a person than he can take. And she describes their house as a dirty wood frame house that the Buckners called home.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
She said he didn't have the kind of life that other children have. He didn't have the money other children had to spend. And other neighbors just said he ran everything. And one one neighbor said, you don't turn a farm over to a kid. I saw him working all day long. He did all the milking. He was worked to death. I just think that Kirk had to work harder than a 14 year old boy should have to work.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
You just can't do that to a kid. So Kirk's life is shit, basically. It's hard, man. It is a hard. This kid's going to look like he's 45 when he's 21. He's one of those kids just for being working and being beaten down. So September 24th, 1987, Kirk goes to the local service station that evening and to borrow a car jack from the service station.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Patreon.com slash crime in sports. P-A-T-R-E-O-N. You want this. Anybody, $5 a month or above, you are going to get just so much stuff. A gigantic back catalog of hundreds of episodes of bonus stuff you've never heard before immediately upon subscription. Then new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder, and you, my friends, get it all.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They say he was friendly, but sometimes he kind of moped around. One person, one of the kids he was fishing with, said that he was kind of weird when But then when asked what specifically he was weird with, he said, I don't know. You know. General. General. You know, he's always farming and stuff. That's just weird.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
The last time, this is the Thursday night, is when he put gas into the family farm's tractor at the gas station, got an automobile jack, and another neighbor then observed him chopping greens for the cows to eat.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He's busy. So he made a big pile of them to eat. Now, the next day, the next morning, I should say, September 25th, 1987, early in the morning, like a farm, early farm morning here, there is a phone call from the eight-year-old, from Jamie. This is Jim and Julie's kid, Jamie, not Kirk's brother. That's the Buckner family. So that's the Schnicks now.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Jamie Schnick calls up his grandparents, Alfred and Jean, that's his mom's parents there, to come over to the house because something was wrong. Well, let's see here. Alfred and Jean show up about 6 a.m., and they find James, Jim Schnick, lying in the kitchen with blood all over the place. He's got a gunshot wound to his abdomen and lower leg lying on the kitchen floor. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Now, they said when they got there, the first cop that arrived said that Schnick was just berserk. He kept saying, don't hurt me, don't hurt me. He fought us, then laid on the floor and passed out, apparently from shock.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, when people go into shock and they don't know that it's somebody like an AMT trying to help them and they're just losing their mind.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
No, their mind is completely fucked. In shock, it'll screw your whole head up now. Yeah, and blood loss. So they look around and Jean Buckner, the mom, says, Julie's mom went into the bedroom and found Julie in her bed with two bullet wounds in her forehead.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Dead. Mom's dead. Yeah. Julie was only 30 years old here. I guess she was shot twice at close range in the forehead as she slept. Never knew. She's still in her sleeping pose. Never knew what happened. Now, back out in the living room, a few feet from where Jim Schnick was freaking out and going berserk and going into shock, Kirk's body is laying there. He's dead. Young Kirk.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He doesn't even live here. Nope. 14-year-old Kirk. He'd been shot three times, Kirk, in the chest, neck, and back, and he'd been stabbed twice.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Kirk is very dead. A .22 caliber revolver is found in Kirk's right hand as he lay there dead.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
This week, what we're going to do here for crime and sports, we're going to talk about some scams in sports and some cheating scandals, but one particularly is the Spanish Paralympic team where none of them were disabled in any way, shape, or form. Spoiler alert, they did win gold.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Um, so they, Alfred Buckner, this is, uh, Julie's dad, the grandparents here, they asked what happened. And once Jim Schnick got, you know, a shit together a little bit, he said, Kirk came in the door shooting. Really? Kirk snapped. Yeah. He said, Kirk snapped, came in the door shooting.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So the police arrived here, Webster County sheriffs. They arrive. And luckily, the two schnick children, Jamie and Mindy, this eight and six-year-old, they slept. They're sleeping still. Unharmed. Completely unharmed, sleeping in their beds. Well, not sleep. They were sleeping. One called everybody, but they were fine. They slept through this all.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
The first shots were heard in the area at 4.55 a.m.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
An hour ago. They weren't at this house either, we'll talk about. Oh. Yeah. Around 7.15 a.m., the cops are obviously looking through this scene. There's two dead people, two kids, and a wounded man. They said, well, Kirk came from his house. We have to go tell his house what the fuck's going on. Yeah, those cows, their udders are going to burst otherwise.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So they send one of the cops to the Buckner home to do a notification and kind of see what the hell's going on over there. So inside the home, here is the description here from a newspaper. The inside of the home is cluttered. Dirty clothes cover the floor and uneaten food spoils on the kitchen table. Apparently, Kirk didn't have time for his housework that day either, also.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Like, he didn't have time to vacuum and shit because he's doing everything else. The body of Michael, the baby... No, two years old. ...was found in a playpen in the living room where he was sleeping among a pile of stuffed animals. Mm-hmm. It's fucking horrible. Timmy and Dennis Buckner are still in their beds. Each had been shot twice in the head.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
All the kids are dead in the house. They're all dead. They're all dead. I mean, the whole family. They're all dead. Everybody's dead. That was we'll find out here. So, yeah, that's so that's the three young children there. And then Kirk's dead in the house over here. So all four of their kids are dead.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Shocking. And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about this documentary and also a book that accompanies it called American Nightmare on Netflix. And it is the craziest story. I've never been on the edge of my seat so much in a story wondering what's going to happen. It's like you think it's a Sherry Papini situation with a faked kidnapping. But then you're like, is it real?
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Dennis and Timmy were asleep together on the top of a bunk bed when they were shot. God damn it. That's fucking horrible, man. They said a pillow sodden with blood sat propped up on the headboard, which was decorated with a garbage pail kid detail. Very 1987 decal. A crayon rendering of a giraffe signed Timmy hung on the wall.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Both were shot in the head two times each, the sheriff said. Then they think Kirk walked down to the barn where his mother was milking and Apparently she was out there and she is dead. Also shot out by the in the bar. They find her out there. Yeah. Which is obviously crazy. She'd been shot once in the head. So now everybody is dead. One guy's wounded. We haven't found Stephen Buckner yet.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Where's dad? Well, they ended up finding him on a road selling semen. He was just roadside seaman. He had a styrofoam cooler and he was just like, who needs it? They find him on a gravel road near a cemetery, right by a cemetery that runs between the schnick and Buckner farms. There's a gravel road that connects them.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He is dead. He was shot as he sat in the cab of his pickup truck, they said.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He'd been shot twice in the head, and his body was dumped near the local cemetery. They said because there's blood all in the pickup truck, so he was shot while he was in the cab, but his body is dumped kind of on the outside gates of a cemetery. Well, that's wild. When you get a chance, put that in the ground, too, if you could.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So in the pickup cab was the uniform and the red helmet that Stephen Buckner wore as a member of the volunteer fire department. He also had a shotgun, a box of shells, and a hunting knife in there. What? Yeah, he had to be shocked. Ambush, yeah. Where he was found is exactly pretty much halfway between the two homes. So this is a fucking, this is insane.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Two families wiped out. There's seven dead people right now, including the murderer here. So it's a lot going on. But that's not the end of this by any stretch.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So the news media hears about this slaughter at two farms. They go bonkers. I mean, fucking bonkers, man. It's a lot. So this is how they think it went down based on everything and based on what Jim Schnick told them and based on what the scenes tell them here. They seem to think the boy just snapped Kirk. He snapped. He couldn't take it anymore. He said, fuck it. I'm done. Killed his mother.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They think first outside, then went in and killed his two brothers, then his little brother. And then Steve, they think somehow was either coming home from something or about to leave to go somewhere. And he went out and shot him in the truck, drove the truck to the cemetery, dumped him off there. That's what they think, which is about three miles away.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Then he had driven to the schnick farm with his dad's truck covered in blood and killed his aunt. And before he got to the kids or anything else, they think that Jim, because Jim said that he was unaware that anything was going on in the house. He came in from his morning milking. And took off his boots.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And it goes, it's crazy. I cannot wait to tell you this story. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well. Jimmy will screw your name all up. Don't you worry about that. That said, I think it's time, everybody. Let's all sit back. Clear the lungs. Here we go. Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And sees what was going on. It was just before 6 a.m. It was dark in the house. Yeah. And apparently Kirk came up and fired at him.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And that's when he said that hit him in the leg. And so he got a hole. He stumbled into the kitchen because it's small, grabbed a knife and just lunged at Kirk from a close range and stabbed him in the chest, which actually pierced his heart. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. We are going to Elkland, Missouri this week. Elkland. Elkland, the land of elk. Here it is. Southwestern Missouri, this is. Sure. Not quite no man's land here. It's about 35 minutes to Springfield, but that 35 minutes, it turns real rural. It's a long 35. It's a long 35. There's nothing going on out here in Elkland.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
It's farmland out here, a lot of farms. and especially back when we're going to talk about it. It's about 35 minutes to Springfield, like we said. Population of this town, 1,956. Oh. So not too, too small, but they're spread out a good amount, though. Pretty small. I would say under 2,000 people. This is in Webster County.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Median household income here is about $61,467 a year, which is in the ballpark of the national average, but not quite.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's weird. He said he was thrashing about, but it was like a little bantam rooster wanting to be held back from a fight.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
I don't know what that means. I've never been in a cockfight. I haven't been live at a cockfight, so I'm not sure what that means, but I'm sure it's not good. He said another thing that he said Jim's voice was very weak. He said that didn't seem unusual at the time, but then when the medical report came in that he wasn't shot that much, he wasn't that injured. Shot. Shot that much.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He said the abdomen was a flesh wound. He said, a bullet in your leg doesn't make you lose your voice.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He's like, that's weird. He said, I got shot. He's like, I'm shot. Yeah, I'm weak. I'm weak. So at that point, he called the Missouri Highway Patrol Criminal Division and asked for help. And the guy, the sergeant there who got the call said, I was wondering when you were going to call.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They said piece by piece, the evidence came in and it became more apparent that what we first assumed was wrong. The lab report discovered a crucial piece of evidence in the pocket of James Schnick's clothes, and that is a .22 caliber. They found evidence that he had dealt with the pistol. They don't say what it is.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
We don't know if it's a round or something, but that he at some point had the .22 pistol. He had had access to it.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Not that I know of. A Webster? No, no. A dictionary, but not a president.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
No, no. I don't know what you're thinking. I'm trying to think. We got a Woodrow Wilson. That's W's. That might be the closest. I may be thinking of that. And then median home cost here, $232,100 here. The post office, named Elkland, has been in operation since 1870. Very simple reason why they called it Elkland. When they showed up, there was elk here. So they were like, well, it's Elkland.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
The gun was in Kirk's wrong hand. And of course, the basically the father was 30 feet off the road.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So someone would have had to drag his 275-pound carcass 30 feet off the road.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Now, October 5th, 1987, the funerals all take place. Jim's too fucked up to go to the funerals, obviously. He's too injured here. This is polygraph time. Uh-oh. So he is told of certain physical evidence that was inconsistent with his initial account and that they don't believe him.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So then he gives two completely different accounts that are different from each other and different from his first accounts. In one version, he claimed to have been abducted by Kirk and Steve. Okay, now it's getting crazy. In the next account, he claimed that Kirk kidnapped him. He was kidnapped by a 90-pound child.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So they're sitting him down for the polygraph. He's in a wheelchair complaining of pain, but he agrees to take the polygraph here. They explain the polygraph test, telling him that it could be terminated at any time and he's free to leave whenever he wants. He read aloud a form consenting to the polygraph, waving his Miranda rights, signed the form.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Then as they're starting to attach the shit to him for the polygraph, he says, Don, I think we better stop. I don't think I want to take the test. I'm just so scared.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So this cop talks to the other cop who'd been monitoring this interview, and they agreed that they don't believe his stories at all.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So he comes back and they say, look, you got inconsistencies in your earlier stories. We don't think you're being truthful. If you want us to believe anything you fucking said, you better hook up to the machine. So he said, let me tell you a different version of what happened. Version number four or five now, I'm not sure. And they said, well, that sounds pretty goddamn incredible.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And he said, okay, here's what really happened, and then told a completely different version of it.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
at that point they're starting to look at each other and go do we just put the cuffs on him now or what the fuck did he do yeah apparently at that point they said we think you did all of this and started to start going through it with him and he would confirm the statements as they would do it yep yep then he started to recount to them how he killed all seven of them
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yep. He killed everybody. Why? They said he told us he did it. He set it up to make people think his nephew did it.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They said once we had the statement from him, there was no sense in putting him on the machine, on the lie detector. So he repeated it again, then gave a final statement on videotape after being Mirandized again. And throughout the time, access to water, bathroom, allowed to take his medication. This is how they think it really happened.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They think that Kirk went to the Schnick house at about 4 a.m. armed with the .22 just because he had it on him. Because he had it on him around the farm. There was a struggle. Or they think that Stephen came over there armed with the .22 because they have had a beef. Okay, we'll talk about that. Or he came over to help with something or who the fuck knows why. They don't know why.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
But there was a struggle. He killed Buckner, Stephen, and dumped him at the cemetery. Then continued on to the Buckner house and killed the whole family. Kirk was the only one dressed, probably doing chores. And police say now that he might have died trying to save his family. They said he probably tried to protect his family. He took care of those children. He loved his brothers.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They presume that Julie Schnick is the last one to die. And he didn't kill his own kids either. He left his two kids alive. Jamie and Mindy were alive. Yeah. So he said he killed Steve Buckner at his house, then went to the Buckner house where he killed Jan Buckner. Then all four of the sons then returned home with Kirk's corpse in the car. Yeah. And killed his wife.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And he said they said, well, what did you what was your big beef with Steve? What happened? They said, well, when Steve and Julie were kids, Steve raped her.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And his four children. Him and anything that sprung forth from his loins, apparently. And that created marital problems for both families. And he was mad that Steve neglected his four sons. So he said, I'll just kill them all instead.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's the thing, man. Well, that's where the money comes in. She has a $50,000 insurance policy. She's the only one who has one, too. Now, the Webster County Sheriff Eugene Fraker said publicly, quote, the Buckner boy is innocent of everything. He had no part in this.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So the motive is the thing that they can't figure out. All they can figure out is there's a fucking bad blood and there's a fifty thousand dollar insurance policy on Julie's life. The cop said loves a funny thing. I don't know if we'll ever know exactly what happened. They said he didn't really explain it, why it happened. He only explained that it happened.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They even said, I don't know if it was a long-range plan or what. There is the wills and insurance to consider. There are several motives, but I don't want to comment on them in detail.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
His actual wife. I'll kill all these kids too. We don't know. They said the most tragic thing would be if we didn't clear Kirk Buckner's name.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
yeah so in court jimmy he shows up holy fuck wearing overalls in court no he had dude i'll post it on social media you absolutely want to see this it is our second time of someone knowingly that we know wore overalls in court but he shows up in court in fucking overalls and a white t-shirt it's not a good look for court
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yeah, that's it. I got stuff to do this afternoon, so I figure if I could leave. He's up for the death penalty, by the way. And the prosecutor said if there ever were a death penalty case, I would think this would be the one.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He killed fucking four kids, for Christ's sake. Four kids. Monster. Killed a two-year-old. They said, in a little town like this, everyone's a relative. Everybody was kind of relieved to find out the boy didn't do it. Nobody really wanted to find out about Mr. Schnick because he had a lot of friends, too.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Nobody wanted their friend to be the one responsible for it. They say, though, they think it's most important that the boy who was killed not be branded a killer. Please don't do that, they keep saying in the paper. Please, please, we're sorry. There's an article from the St.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Louis Post-Dispatch here that says the freshman and junior varsity football teams of Marshfield High School were playing a road game at Boulevard, Missouri, Monday night when word spread that police had mistakenly blamed Kirk for killing his family. The students relayed their feelings. The principal said most of them said, basically, we told you we didn't do it.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
A lot of the kids are like, what the fuck? The principal said, my own gut feeling about it is the students never really did believe Kirk did it. One neighbor said that she never believed Kirk murdered six people and got killed. She said that... Never, ever. She said, I thought I'd feel a lot better about this knowing that he didn't do it, but I really don't.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
She said, it's bad enough the whole thing happened, but Kirk won't be blamed for it. That's good. It's just awful to think what Kirk went through before he died.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Now, this is their next door neighbor to the Buckner family. She says she didn't believe it and never would believe that he did it. She said, I knew his whole family. I knew how they were when they were together. There was no way he was capable of this at all. Right.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
How the shit was she still alive? How the hell is that possible? Did she marry a 100-year-old man in like 1965 when she was like 18? Civil War? I don't know how the math works.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So they said they felt some relief when a Missouri Highway Patrol officer came to question her a few days after the killings and the investigation implicated Jim Schnick instead. And she said, I was so relieved that somebody was checking into this and not just forgetting it and just saying, well, the killer's dead. Fuck it. That's what happens. Now, his best friend, Kirk's best friend, B.J.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Lawson, said he hopes that Kirk's name is finally cleared now. He said they just knew he couldn't do nothing like that. He said because he never lost his temper. The maddest he ever got, he'd say a couple cuss words and that's it. He said everybody knows he didn't do it, but people who didn't know him, they probably thought he was some kind of weirdo. He was an all-around nice guy.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He'd do anything for just about anybody. Nice guy. So trial comes up here for Jim. Four of the murder counts are dismissed by the state before the trial with no explanation. So the charges are Julie, Kirk, and the two-year-old. Those are who he's charged with killing. That's it.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They're all in the same... Do you think someone different killed the other kids in the bed and then somebody else killed the kids in the living? It's a crazy thing. I don't know why that is, but... That's how it goes. Now, the testimony here, you get the wife of the deputy who went to visit him in the hospital and question him. She testifies. She's way too involved in all this shit.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
I don't want to know. This is crazy. They said, do you consider yourself to be a friend of James Schnick? And she said, yes. So there was that. Also, firefighters here saying that Schnick was one of their best volunteers. They said Schnick got most of the donated items sold at an auction last year to benefit firefighters. Oh, let's just let him go then.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He collected the items. He got the donated items.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yeah, yeah. So he did his job. Yeah, so what are we doing here? Let's let him go. John Arthur Sparkman of Republic, that's a town, said that Schnick lived with his family at one time. Sparkman's son and Schnick worked cattle and hogs together. He said, Jim was a good worker. I never had any questions when I loaned him my trucks and machinery. Great. He killed fucking four kids.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
But Jesus Christ, you lend this guy a weed whacker, it's coming back full of fucking... Never had any blockbuster late fees, James.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He's a good guy. He's coming back with the oil mixed properly and everything. It's filled up, gas and oil mixed. They asked this one guy, and he said he wasn't aware of an affair that Schnick had because they said, were you aware of it? And they said, would that have changed your opinion of him as a father if you knew about it? And the guy said, yes, it would have.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
The American Civil War, not... It's crazy. I don't understand. What the fuck? I don't know how that happened. I had to have that in there just for the crazy math there.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
I don't know what difference that makes, but verdict comes in here. Less than two hours of deliberation. Not much. He's found guilty of all three counts of murder. Okay. So now we go to sentencing.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Four murders. Or three, seven murders.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Three. So they get a psychologist here in the sentencing stage to testify that Jim Schnick is unlikely to do this again. Well, yeah, because he killed everybody he's related to. What the fuck else is he going to shoot? Nobody left.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So they said this psychologist did a battery of psychological tests on Schnick that showed he suffered from organic brain damage that hampered his verbal reasoning, comprehension, and memory, they said. The records show that Schnick suffered from traumatic head injuries at some points in his life here, which I don't know if that's just farm work or what.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
You get kicked in the head by an animal every once in a while. I don't know. So Foster, who that's the guy who did this all, the doctor who's chief of psychology at the Federal Medicine Center in Rochester, Minnesota, interviewed him for hours, interviewed all his friends and everything like that. He says that Schnick denies and represses the killings. He didn't do it.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He doesn't know what you're talking about now. He doesn't get it. Yep. I call it lying is what that is. I call it lying. It's a different name. It's not a psychological medical term, but I think it works. Lying. Yeah. He describes Schnick as a very compulsive person who likes an orderly life, has strong held moral values. That's why he cheats on his wife and shoots a two-year-old.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And it is nearby Marshfield, which we'll talk about in the reviews, because that's where the court takes place, and it's like seven miles away and kind of where town is, basically, is the home to the only intersection of the Transamerica Bicycle Trail and US Route 66. Oh, yeah, there is a, yeah. Don't get hit by a car on your bike there.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Whole family, yeah. Very high moral standards here. And helps others. He said, in Mr. Schnick's case, the acts of that night were so far removed from his life, his earlier life, that he repressed the acts. He was repulsed by the acts, as was I. Well, I would hope you would be.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
No, he then said it's unlikely that Jim will display this behavior again. And, you know, he won't kill seven people again. So, you know, that's all he said. He had the conditions. He had Schnicks family background. He said disagreements with his brother in law. All of this perfect storm of shit probably wouldn't ever happen again. So, you know, he's fine. Probably, you know, I can't. I'm not a.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Not a genie here, but, you know, I can look into my crystal ball and figure it out. What do I look like here? So in describing his past, the psychologist said that Schnick's father and brother weren't loving and supportive. Oh, so kill everybody. That makes sense. Schnick, who had learning problems since birth and but a higher than average mechanical aptitude and ability.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
sought approval by hard work and high moral values. He said that Schnick left home as a teenager because of a strict father. And he also describes him as a hard worker who frequently helped others, including strangers. One boyhood friend with whom Schnick had double dated recalled times when Schnick helped stranded motorists. Oh, well, let's just put him back out on the street.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He helped change a tire, jumped a car. Wow. He also said that Schnick wouldn't fight back in disagreements, but would go elsewhere and seek attention and approval through aiding others. That's what he said. Rather than fight, he'll go off and try to help people and make himself feel better.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Most people have outlets to express their anger, but Schnick felt cornered by pressure and didn't have any way to cope with it, the psychologist said. He also goes on, and this is kind of true. Unlike other mass killers who this guy's examined, he said... This guy has no background of abuse or crimes. He's not a criminal. He has no back. So that makes him much more dangerous.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Much more because it's why there's not even a predictor. It's just out of nowhere. He did this. He said, I will have to say something that's unusual with Mr. Schnick is he doesn't have the antisocial behavior of many serial killers. The defense attorney here has said that he has the capacity to lead a productive life in prison.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
She believes that in the work ethic philosophy and relationships that schnick would make a good role model for other prisoners because they love people who kill babies. That's still who doesn't look up to that guy. You know what I mean? Well, he might probably has the most bodies of anyone in there. So maybe they will look up to him in prison. Who knows?
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Wow. They said, I don't know if they'll be raping him atop that pedestal, but something will be going on. Uh, the, they said that, the doctor said, my concern would be his naivete. Even despite the acts for which he's been accused, he's still naive in many ways. Now, closing arguments here.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Reviews of this town, and like we said, this is going to be Marshfield, which is right next door. The reviews really are similar of what they would probably be for Elkland. Here's five stars. Marshfield is a small town. There are three E's in Marshfield. Everyone knows everything about everybody. The three E's. That's clever. I like that.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
The prosecutor said that the Alfred and Jean Buckner, they no longer have their entire family said these families have suffered losses that can't be compensated for losses. They'll have to live with for the rest of their lives. Uh, They said they won't have any holiday family, nothing.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Alfred and Jean Buckner will never be familiar with the idea of having their daughter or son walk up to them and hug them. They'll never know the satisfaction of their daughter coming up and saying, I love you, or their son saying, I love you. The victims had both hopes and dreams. Anyone who would kill an infant under these circumstances deserves the most serious punishment provided by law.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They said that his helpfulness, that's all good and dandy and his tire changing and everything. But they said that agony suffered by the survivors can't overcome 100 lifetimes of good deeds. Yeah, I don't care how many tires you change. You're not doing this.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
His lawyer argued for life in prison, saying the murders represent a terrible loss to the area, but said, but Alfred and Jean Buckner have two grandchildren left. He didn't kill all of them. The children have a father left and those children love their father. She said that vindictive punishment wouldn't be appropriate. She said there's no mercy in this courtroom for James Schnick.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
There's no mercy in this courtroom because life in prison for James Schnick will be extremely hard. They said maybe he'll be a role model, put him in prison, said that I would ask you. Then the prosecutor rebutted by saying, I would ask you what mercy did he show Kirk Buckner Buckner? What mercy did he show Michael Buckner? What mercy did he show for his own wife?
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He's been portrayed as a man who loves kids. He should be portrayed as a man who killed four kids, including three who are sleeping in their beds. Eight men, four women on the jury. They decide because the jury recommends to the judge and then the judge's final say in Missouri back then. So they say they recommend death. The jury recommends death. The judge has final say, though, here.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They said the judge will consider it and it'll come back in a couple of days. Now, they come back. If he is sentenced to death, he'll be the 57th man on death row in Missouri State Penitentiary. No one had been executed since 1965 in Missouri, though. This is 87. The judge says, you, sir, may fuck off. Death penalty for you, sir. Got him. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
I mean, like I said, if there's a death penalty, killing a sleeping two-year-old is pretty bad. It's pretty fucking bad.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So the defense attorney said I was trying to prepare for other things instead of the ultimate outcome. So 1990, by the way, there's a fucking big accident here with their family too. Aline Schnick, the driver of a car, apparently ran a stop sign at the intersection of Missouri Highways 13 and 215. Yeah. She was killed and other members of the killed.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Sharon Schnick's children, Katerina Schnick, 19 months old, Jennifer Schnick, five years old. Oh, my God. Kimberly Ducker, nine years old, all killed in this accident.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
The Schnick family is getting wiped the fuck out. 1991, he appeals. He said he was deprived of his freedom because he was in the hospital and thus Miranda was required. They the law says, no, you were a victim at the time you were in the hospital. And just because you couldn't move because you're in the hospital doesn't mean you were held.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
What the hell? I know. I was like, how does that work? One. We have at least 1,200 in our high school, yet we still are a close community and come together to help people out, whether it's churches coming together to make food for those in need or if it's someone giving a homeless person money to spend. It's a small town to have homeless people. Why are there homeless people here?
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
You could have told the cops to get the fuck out of your room and they would have had to go. End of story. So also jury selection. OK, they asked the defense attorney asked a juror or a potential juror during voir dire. Do you think because they are law enforcement officers, they're entitled to more believability than others?
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
This guy said not necessarily, but you know them and the job they've done and you believe them before you would a stranger because he knew one of the cops. The potential juror knew the row guy who went with his wife to the hospital.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's the problem. The Missouri Supreme Court, based on that, overturns the conviction, reverses it. Then on May 1st, 1992, Jim pleads guilty to the three counts of murder and is agreed to that he is sentenced to, you sir may still fuck off, three life sentences consecutive, no chance for parole. You're going forever.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And also part of the plea agreement is that he will never, never be prosecuted for the other four murders as well. In 2000, there's a book called Murder in the Heartland that comes out that has, I guess, a bunch of different stories. And this is one of them. It's the only way you can get it is seventy five dollars for a used paperback. Jesus, that's bonkers.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Then in 2016, a book called No Justice, The Jim Schnick Story, an in-depth investigation reveals the innocence of a man sentenced to die for seven familicide murders in Webster County based on a true story. Someone wrote a book, 257-page book, that's only in like two libraries in Arkansas because I tried to find it, saying he's innocent. And Arkansas people are buying it. Holy shit.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
May 11, 2024, so not even a year ago, at the South Central Correctional Center in Licking. That's his town.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Licking, Missouri. It's better than Licking, Arkansas, I guess. I don't want to lick Arkansas. You don't know where Arkansas has been. James Schnick, 73, pronounced dead. Oh, he beat the sentence. Well, he got life, so that was it. All of the dead family members, by the way, the murdered family members, are buried at the Timber Ridge Cemetery in Marshfield. And there you go, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's a fucked up story. Let me tell you something.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's great. He said, I'll kill everybody. That'll make me look sane. That would make me look not guilty. So if you enjoy that story or any of the other stories, please get on whatever app you're listening on and give us five stars. It helps fucking tremendously. Also, shut up and give me murder dot com. Head there for your tickets for live shows for 19.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
April the 19th is our 420 virtual live show. It's available for two weeks after it to purchase it, to watch it, to. Do whatever you want with it for two weeks. Watch it 100 times. We don't care. Knock yourselves out. We'll be in costumes telling a crazy murder story, smoking weed out of crazy devices, and just like a regular live show. But you're in your house. It's going to be so much fun.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
We can't wait for that. Also, Chicago in May. Get your tickets at the Riviera coming up and for the rest of the year as well. Shut up and give me murder.com. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you are going to get a whole big backlog, back catalog of bonus stuff you've never heard before and new ones every other week.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
One crime and sports, one small town murder. This week, crime and sports, Spanish Paralympic team that wasn't disabled, but they did win the gold, spoiler alert, and some other scams. And then for small town murder, we're going to talk about the American Nightmare documentary on Netflix. It's fucking the craziest story I've ever heard. You think it's a papini? Is it? We'll find out.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. Want to follow us on social media? Drop down menus on shut up and give me murder.com. We'll take you there and take you everywhere you need to go. That said, thank you so much for listening, everybody. And until next week, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Four stars. People stay. Okay. People stay. Marshfield is known for the town you hate but never leave. Okay. Four stars, though. That's good. People are friendly, but unless you're involved in a church, there is little community. Yeah, because it's rural. I mean, you're out on your own, kind of. There's not a lot of gathering places here. Two stars, finally. Generally an okay town. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Not too grand. People are incredibly rude and terrible drivers. Most kids I graduated with said they want to get out of this town, and I've never agreed more. Yeah. So it's a small town people move from unless they want to farm or something of that nature or be part of a religious community or be part of the church. I don't know things to do here.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
We have the Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival, which is in Marshfield. By the way, it became in 2021. They became sister festivals, which I didn't know they did that. I know their sister cities, sister festivals with the Peanut Festival in Plains, Georgia, where Jimmy Carter's from there. Right. Members of the committee and auxiliary traveled to Plains for a ceremony.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They had a whole ceremony there. Okay. The Cherry Blossom Festival is open to the public, and most events that do not include food or a performance are free. You know, just standing there and doing nothing. That's free. The Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival is an annual three-day event in the spring that celebrates the city of Marshfield and the state of Missouri.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Descendants of presidents are invited to come share their stories. Like we said, they said Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Cleveland, Ford, Webster. These are just a few of the presidents that have been represented at the Cherry Blossom festivities. Celebrities with ties to Missouri are also invited.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Even relatives of celebrities is like your brother have like a show on HGTV. Great. Come on in.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Who gives a shit? We don't know. He's from this area. Um, then also there's the star V Creek star V gross, which is like, I'm short for starving. Like feel a little star V right now. Uh, star V Creek bluegrass festival, uh, So we got that, and there's four bands I have listed here. The Little Roy and Lizzie Show. Sure. That's a band. The Seldom Scene, like you're painting a scene. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
The Seldom Scene and Dave Adkins. We bring Dave in for special events like this. The Lonesome River Band, and then the Larry Stevenson Band will also be performed. You can't have a festival without the Larry Stevenson Band. Let's be realistic here. Yeah. Yeah, there's not a lot going on in this town here, I would say. But I don't know. People seem to like it, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay and choo-choo. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on more crazy episode. You can't get any more. I don't know how that came out wrong. On more crazy episode. That is terrible.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That said, let's talk about some crazy goddamn murder that happens here. Wow, is this insane. All right, let's go. 1987 is where we're going to do this. Everything kind of takes place in 87. Let's just do 87 here. Let's start with a man, James Jim Schnick. S-C-H-N-I-C-K. Schnick. Yeah. Now, Jimmy Schnick here, he's in his 30s. He's got a dairy farm.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
He's running a dairy farm. Schnick Farm? The Schnick Dairy Farm. That's right. Apparently, the Schnick family has been a part of the community for 250 years or so they've been around. Really? Yeah, they've been a lot of farming going on in this area. Jim worked for the Volunteer Fire Department.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
as well, and the postmaster, Jim Jacobs, recalled that he once had been a member of the Lions Club as well. Oh, yeah. Look at that. So Jim Schnick is trying to find all the social things he can. A newspaper article said, Elkland is the sort of town where everybody knows everybody else, which is just what the reviewer said, too. It has two gas stations, a Lions Club chapter, and a Masonic Lodge.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
You join one or both or the volunteer fire department. That's what you do for socializing because there's nothing else going on here. No. He's got a wife, Jim does. Sure does. Named Julie Elizabeth and her non-married name is Buckner. Made the name of Buckner. B-U-C-K-N-E-R. And she will later be Schnick here. So Julie Schnick. Julie Schnick comes from this area as well.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Her family has a farm a couple miles away. Her brother runs a farm, and then her parents also have a farm that she grew up on.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
All dairy farming people. Her parents are Alfred and Elizabeth. Now, Julie and Jim have two kids. They have eight-year-old Jamie at this point and six-year-old Mindy. So these are their kids. Now, they live on their own little dairy farm. Jim, Julie, two kids. Jim, Julie, Jamie, Mindy. And then there is the Buckners. These are Julie's relatives, Julie's brother and his family.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
No, no, just her brother. I mean, they live around, but her brother Steve is lives a couple miles, about six miles away on his dairy farm.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So and with his family. So they're all they're kind of, you know, right next six miles is nothing.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Yep, that's that. He's also a dairy farmer, another dairy farmer. So the brother is Stephen James Buckner. Goes by Steve. He's 35 years old. He's got a wife named Jeanette Ann Buckner. Used to be Bernhard. Changed it to Buckner. She's 36. They got married in 1970. Um, they have four kids with them living in this house too. Wow. Yeah. Uh, they have Steven Kirk Buckner. Uh, he's 14 goes by Kirk.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So it goes by the middle name. So it's not confused with his dad's name, I would assume. Uh, so he's 14. Then they have Dennis, uh, who's eight. Then they have Timothy who's Timmy. He goes by Timmy six. And then they have a two year old Michael Brian Buckner as well. God. This family... All boys? All boys. Which, if you run a dairy farm... That's great. That ain't bad, actually.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's called employees. That's called a workforce, is what you're raising here.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
They're slowly turning Amish, is what they are. Like, let's just make as many kids as we can to deal with this farmland. So, yeah, all these kids live here. And so there's six people living in this little farmhouse. And they... They kind of extended themselves. Steve extended himself a little bit, buying more farmland.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
On another insane episode of Small Town Murder Express, 10 pounds of murder in a two-pound bag. And this week, wow, is this a lot going on this week. It's a wild story. We will get into that. First of all, though, ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com is where you get tickets.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
So he buys more land, and due to this, he's having a hard time paying the bills. It's not easy. After they pay for food and feed and all that kind of shit, there's very little money left over. There's no... Not a lot of just discretionary spending. The kids don't go out to the movies. They don't go get new school clothes every year. There's not a lot of money going around here.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
Even though Steve has this over 100 acres, by the way, this dairy farm, even though he has this, the money's so tight he has other jobs he has to do.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
One here, I guess he had just purchased about 110 acres over the last few years, and that's where this is coming from. So he basically leaves his wife and sons in charge of the dairy while he struggles to make a living selling, selling feed and cattle semen. He's a semen dealer. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
That's me. I sell semen right there. But the residents of the town say basically this meant that everything fell on 14-year-old Kirk's shoulders. We'll talk about his wife and Kirk's mom, but at the same time, the other kids are kind of too young to really –
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
eight is the oldest kid that's eight is a terrible employee they're awful they're just not good at shit you know never mind child labor for morality reasons also they're just bad at it they're just not good at farming didn't they have one older than eight they have 14 kirk is the 14 year old so everything falls on kirk's shoulders because yeah because the other any help no the other ones are too young and we'll talk about mom in a minute here
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
But they say so. Not only that, Steve is also he operates a business that artificially inseminates cows. So, OK, he'll sell you semen.
Small Town Murder
#582 - Seven Murders & One Lie - Elkland, Missouri
And you can artificially inseminate the cows. And he also replenishes storage tanks on nearby farms with liquid nitrogen that's used to keep bull semen cold. This guy knows his fucking jizz, man. His farm jizz. He could write an encyclopedia of farm jizz, this guy.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
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Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He's wearing my Vick is where I want to call him Michael Vick, but he's Jonathan Vick. He's wearing blue jeans and light colored shirt. Vick is talking to his friend Pace about a lady named Dana. Okay. Who owns a hair salon.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
But more importantly, tickets for live shows. Right. Get in there, get your tickets for live shows, especially the 420 virtual live show takes place on Saturday, April the 19th, day before 420. And it'll be available for two weeks after that to buy and watch 100 times or do whatever you want with it for two weeks and have a lot of fun with it.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And he said that, um, I'm going to ask her out tonight. Oh, tonight. He's 17. She's a married 27 year old woman with two kids who owns her own business.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
You are absolutely not scoring that broad. absolutely have no chance at that shit whatsoever you may think she you're i'm sure she's nice to you when she cuts your hair but that doesn't mean she wants to have sex with your teenage ass so vick had spoken about dana to pace on a couple of occasions telling him like a chicken she's hot the
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
You know, that Dana that works at the hair salon, man, she's fine, isn't she?
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Hot chick over there. She might be the hottest chick in town, you know what I mean? Probably, yeah. So she said, you know, this lady, she cuts my hair, man. Ooh, she's real fine and all that kind of thing. So at the end, this particular night, Vic tells Pace that Dana was having problems with her husband.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
That's how small of a town it is that some fucking high school kid knows when you're having problems with your husband.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
She's having problems with her husband, and he said, I'm going to ask Dana out, and I hope she'll go on a date with me. Yeah. Where? To the bowling alley? What are you talking about? What kind of date are you going to take this woman on? This guy laughed in Vic's face. Yeah. It's the right answer, man. He said, you're out of your fucking mind. Said she's older. You're way too young for her.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
You have nothing going on for you. You live with your parents. What are you going to do?
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
No, a fat man. She likes men, not boys. So Vic got pissed off at the guy. Was like, hey, fuck you. I got a shot with her. They were arguing at the bowling alley. This guy is like laughing, catching his breath. And Vic's like, that's bullshit. I think she'll go out with me. I got a shot. I got as good a shot as anybody.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
That's laughing in your face. A good friend laughs in your face when you say dumb shit like that. So then you don't follow through with it because they laughed in your face. You're like, oh.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yes. So that's how it goes. Then he said he hoped that Dana was that I hope she'll say yes to my date. And then he said he starts graphically describing of what he'd like to do to her, including that he would, quote, bend her over her barber chair and perform sexual acts on her. And we can assume which ones he's talking about.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He further then went on to state other sexual conduct he would like to have take place with Dana. I love how a court document puts that, by the way. This is what I would like to have take place with Dana. I'd like to have my penis and put it here. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
This goes on for an hour. Wow. Back and forth. And this guy's just never, he never was like, maybe you do have a chance. He's like, you're out of your fucking mind. Yeah, she's hot. I'm sure we'd all like to do that, but give me a break here. So then this guy's work shift ends, and Vic agrees to give his friend a ride home. During the drive, he continues to say, I'm serious, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I'm going over there. I'm asking her out, and she's going to go out with me. He kept defending himself, and he was mad at Pace for laughing at him. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He could never be a comedian, this guy. No. No self-awareness, and then when someone laughs at you, you don't laugh also. You get mad. Hey, how dare you say I'm stupid? He should go, I had this dumb thought once, and that would be a whole, that would be like a three-minute bit where I thought I could fuck this hot lady who was 10 years older than me.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Wherever the hell they want to be. Yeah, anywhere with an internet connection. And the entire planet Earth is where you can be. So we're very excited for that. Definitely get your tickets right now, just like a regular live show. We are very excited. Also get your tickets for the regular live shows. We have our next up are in May. We have St. Louis and Chicago. St. Louis sold out.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Um, so he, Vic dropped pace off at about 6 45 or 7 PM as pace exited the vehicle. Vic told him that he was going to go get his haircut right now. I'm going to go get a haircut from Dane and see what happens.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
well that's what this guy says too he says that what you're gonna what the fuck he said it's kind of late you're gonna by the time you get there you're still gonna get a haircut and he said oh Dana keeps her salon open late and she knows I'm coming so she'll be there for me so the vehicle that Pace was dropped off in by Vic was a blue and white Ford Bronco with distinctive saw blade wheels and we know exactly what those wheels are yeah you know those ones like louvers almost yeah
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So, now a week earlier, okay, let's talk about that. A week earlier, there was someone sitting in the chair named Darlene Reeves while Dana was doing her hair at the salon. Jonathan Vick's mother called Dana and asked Dana to fix Vick's hair. Number one, this is how you know she's not going to fuck you. Your mom calls and makes your hair appointments.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Which is your mom's not setting up like dates for you here. This is not how this is working. So now this woman who was in the chair said that Dana was like exasperated by the situation. Like, Jesus Christ, what the fuck? And told this after she hung up, told the customer that I'm not going to accommodate that. I'm not going to fix his hair. Fuck this. They're a pain in the ass.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Now, the saleswoman, Diane Harris here, the one who sold the bottle of cleanser while this was going on, she, by the way, lived in Charlotte. She was basically she's part of a they sell like door to door this cleaning supplies. So they just take people to a location and drop off a bunch of salesmen and let them walk around and then drive them an hour 45 back to Charlotte.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Fuck, man. That's brutal. Like an old vacuum salesman or something. So she said she went to the salon 630 or 640 after giving the demonstration and made a sale with her. And she said she was scheduled to meet back at her designated spot to be picked up with the other salespeople at 830 p.m. So she was to be the last salesperson picked up before heading back to Charlotte.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
After leaving the shop, Diane Harris walked around the area making calls on different houses and businesses just trying to figure it out, trying to sell some cleaner. So at about 810, she walked through the parking lot of the salon after she had already been there an hour earlier, at which time she saw Dana through the window of the salon and spoke to her.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And she said she appeared to be cleaning and that Dana waved at her as she walked by like, oh, you're the cleaning supply lady. There you go. I think she was using her thing. So this woman continued to try to sell things before heading back to the pickup spot at 830. As she reached the salon parking lot, she noticed that the lights were on, but the blinds were now down.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
You guys are the best down there. Chicago, get in there and sell that bad boy out at the Riviera. We're excited. Shut up and give me Murder.com. Get them for the rest of the year, too, because they are going fast. We have a lot of shows sold out after the summer. So definitely get your tickets right now. Also, get yourself Patreon. Do yourself a favor.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So she had walked by before. Blinds are up waving. Now she walks back. The blinds are down. At the same time, she hears thumping sounds coming from inside the building. When she looked around, she observes a man falling out of the salon's window. Oh, a man falling out of the window. No, no, no. Open window falling out. The screen pops out. The screen's already out.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And you see a man climbing out of a window to Harris. She was like, what the fuck? And got scared and threw all of her shit down and ran. Oh, she just took off through all of her fucking cleaning supplies. Everything just threw it down and left and left as she ran around the building in one direction.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
She said the man ran around the other direction and they came face to face on the other side of the building like a bad cartoon. Yeah. So Harris then ran out into the middle of the street and started screaming because she was scared of this guy. She's a real. That's a that's a wild reaction. There was no words exchanged. So she ran into a home. She just busted into somebody's house.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
ran in, slammed the door behind her, locks it, and tells the residents to call 911 because Dana over here, this lady at the beauty shop, needs help. That's what she says, okay? So she said that the man she saw coming out of the window, and again at the back of the building, was the same man, and he, quote, was white and looked crazy. Crazy white boy jumping out the window. That's all I got.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He was wearing a gray or white T-shirt, pair of blue jeans, and appeared to be between 20 and 30 years old. Now, there's a guy named Michael Crook, and he was driving towards Spartanburg at 830 when he observed. He observed Diane Harris. He said he saw a black woman walking and then saw a white male who was bent down and was looking back toward Dana's salon.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And he was wearing grayish colored blue jeans and a grayish colored T-shirt. This is all the same guy. So the police arrive based on this 911 call. They don't even know what the hell this is. You don't know if she's being paranoid or what's going on here, but they get there about 850.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
They arrive at the scene here or the call comes in then and then they get there about 10 minutes later, nine o'clock. A deputy Burnett found the only door to the establishment is partially cracked and a screen from a window is on the ground with the window open.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
If you like our shows, if you listen to this, you listen to Crime and Sports, you listen to Your Stupid Opinions, and you want more, Patreon's where you get it. Patreon.com. slash crimeinsports is where you get all the bonus material, anybody $5 a month or above.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He's like, okay, this is strange. The lights are all off in the shop. So he went in and took a flashlight, which was good. He didn't touch anything. Decent police work. Shined his flashlight all around the shop, and then he got to the bathroom laundry room, which is a combination room here. Fucking shines the flashlight, and he finds Dana in there. Okay. Not okay. She has a strap around her neck.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
from a duffel bag, and is hanging from the hot water heater with her feet two inches off the ground.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
This is not good. She's dead.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He said her clothes were pulled away from her body. Her head was, quote, dramatically cocked to one side based on the hanging thing.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Oh, man, it's it's fucking horrible. Hanging from a strap around her neck, which was connected to the hot water heater. It appeared to have been that she had been strangled with a duffel bag strap and was left hanging from that.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
You get everything, a whole back catalog of hundreds of episodes you've never heard of, bonus stuff, new stuff every other week, one crime in sports, one small-town murder, and you get it all. This week is no different.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Like we said, bruises all over her an inch or two off the ground, blood in her hair on her face, bruises and cuts on her face, and her tongue appeared to protrude from her mouth. A white T-shirt on the top of her body was covered in blood that she was wearing, and she was naked from the waist down with her pants on her left ankle.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yeah, it's fucking horrifying, man. The investigation of the scene reveals all the blood was contained in the bathroom where she was found. So there's not like another hunk of blood out in the salon area or anything like that. The room showed evidence that a struggle had certainly taken place in there. There's blood on walls. It looks like, yeah, this wasn't easy.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Her pocketbook, wallet, and checkbook are all in the salon. as well as the business cash box and checkbook, and the wallet and cash box together contained over $200 in cash. So if you're looking to rob a place, that's not the shit you leave. I don't think they just stole some new cleaning product and took off here.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So the wounds here, the pathologist performs an autopsy on Dana and noted that she had a deep abrasion on her forehead as well as other superficial abrasions and numerous contusions about her head, neck, upper chest, elbows, arm, wrist, knees and ankle. This like she fucking was pushed out of a car like that's those are a lot of wounds to fuck man.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Her hyoid bone appeared fractured indicating that she'd probably been strangled or at least had significant pressure around her neck at some point here. They said that could have been caused by a ligature or manual strangulation. The pathologist believed that she was probably strangled manually as well as with the use of a ligature.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
This week, what you're going to get for crime in sports, we are going to talk about more sports songs, more athletes singing terrible songs, and we even have Evel Knievel reading poetry, which is... So all of that and more for small town murder. You are. We're going to talk about Lewis Carlucci, who is known as the as con one or the con man Casanova.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Examination of her brain also revealed extensive hemorrhaging caused by blunt force trauma, and she was sexually assaulted as well. So, the violence of the attack made the cops think this, and the fact that nobody stole anything, makes them really think this is personal as shit.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Like, even if it's just somebody off the street that comes in to try to rape somebody, they'd probably grab 200 bucks on the way out, too. You know what I mean? I don't think it would be outside of their moral spectrum to be able to steal money, is it? after you've raped and killed. So they, obviously they said, this seems like it's gotta be somebody that knows her. That's very angry at her.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So a, uh, state agent, the sled agent, uh, here, what's the state investigative thing. They, uh, an agent here, an expert in the area of DNA and seriology, uh, or serology said that she processed the crime scene for fluids. She examined the body and noticed, uh, that there was possible semen in the victim's pubic region here. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So, remembering that she had seen this when she processed the scene, she later tested the evidence from a rape kit, which contained pubic hair combings, hoping to find semen. The sample tested positive for semen. Okay, and they were able to develop a DNA profile from this semen sample that they have. So they have a DNA profile. So now it's just matching whatever.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So they're talking to witnesses here trying to figure something else out. They have a guy named Jerry Mills who said he knew about the shop and knew where it was, and it was in the same area of where he worked. He said he drove by the area around 5 or 5.30 on that afternoon and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
However, just before dusk, he drove back through and observed a Ford Bronco parked in a place where his employer did not allow parking because it was by his job. And he said none of his coworkers drove a vehicle like that. So that was somebody else. He pulled up closer to the car to check it out, but no one was around the vehicle. He was going to tell them, hey, you're not allowed to park here.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He described the Bronco as a late 80s car, blue with white or light cream colored top with, quote, nice rims on the tires that did not look like factory rims and may have been like a razor type of rim, he said. Or saw a blade. You never know. Blade. So they interview Diane Harris, the saleswoman here. She nervously explained that she came face to face, heard the thumping sound, found the
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
someone on the ground in front of an open window she said quote I seen a man come out of that window with his shirt pulled up like he had fell she said she ran to the left he ran to the right and then she said they came face to face she said she saw him for a split second she said quote he looked crazy over and over again he looked crazy look crazy that's all she would say he was white with brown hair wearing a light colored t-shirt and jeans and that's when she ran to a nearby trailer to call 9-1-1
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And he had like conning all these women in New York City in the 80s. And he was like the whole city was looking for him and no one knew who he was or how to find him. Craziest thing ever. We'll talk about that and more. Patreon dot com slash crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well. That said, I think it's time, everybody. Here we go. Let's do this.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So she was all fucked up about it. But she also gives a lot of details to create a composite sketch. And we'll get to that in a minute. First person they have to really talk to is Mike, is the husband. They're in the middle of a divorce. So dead lady, middle of a divorce. We're chit-chatting with you. Doesn't match this lady's description, but we're going to talk about it.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He said he first learned something was wrong about 9 p.m. when a fellow church member of his called to say that officers were all around his wife's beauty salon. What's going on? So he got in his car, went to the salon, and the deputies wouldn't let him inside, wouldn't tell him anything that was going on. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I think it's time to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs, arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay. Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going to South Carolina this week. Okay, fine. This is Roebuck, South Carolina. R-O-E-B-U-C-K. Roebuck. Northwestern South Carolina, this is. This is nowhere near... Like Myrtle Beach or anything like that.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
This is up toward North Carolina and Tennessee and all that over there. It is about an hour and a half to Charlotte. That's the closest major city. You can tell it's up there more. About four hours to Nixonville, South Carolina. That's down by Myrtle Beach, actually. It was our last episode. The Ballad of Bambi, which was crazy. Definitely a crazy episode.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Thank you. , . . . . .. the, P. P. P. P. P. P. P. P,實 , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , a a Hauled him in here. By then, he's a married man with a baby. Oh, no. Has a history of arrests for both domestic violence and vandalism outside of the military as well as in the military. History of antagonizing coworkers and being fired from jobs.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
People living in the yard in a tent and then There's murder. It's crazy. This is in Spartanburg County population here. Three thousand four hundred eighty two. It's a small town and it was even smaller back when we're going to talk about it. So it's very small median household income here. The rest of the country, about sixty nine thousand here. Fifty four thousand one fifty three. Lower.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Oh, and then there's one other thing. In 2002, his girlfriend disappeared and it was never solved and she was never found.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
His fiancee disappeared. What? Yes. Okay. Since then, he's lived. I'm going to give you a guess of two states he lived in in the last 10 years.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
It's obvious. You're sitting in it. We're sitting in it. He lived in New York? Arizona. Arizona. Oh. I'm at your house. What are you talking about? Do you know whose house we're at right now? Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I don't know. He was in the military, so wherever they moved him there. Oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
That's what I mean. He was right here. So, yeah, he ended up in Florida and Arizona were the two places he lived, which seemed to fit. Yeah, Florida and Arizona. One of Vic's cellmates at a local detention center, Steve Vaughn, was housed in a cell with Vic for approximately eight or nine weeks starting in February 2006. They discussed their pending charges.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
One night, this Vaughn guy got what he called a bad phone call from his wife and was upset. I assume when you're in prison, it's probably a few of those going on.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Oh, man, I would. You don't even want to be married if you're in prison because that's just going to be a those are horrible phone calls. You feel awful. I'm sure she's yelling at you. It's nothing.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Brutal. So in discussing the call with Vic Vaughn asked him whether there was anything in his life or or a day in his life that he would take back if he could. He's like anything you would ever take back in your life. And Vic said it would be the day he went over to Dana's beauty shop.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Vic told this guy that he drove his vehicle over there but parked across the road because Dana was married and he didn't want her husband to see him or his vehicle. Even though he gets his hair cut there. He further indicated he exited the building through a window because he was scared.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He said that he recalled having a conversation with Dana but he blacked out and doesn't recall anything else that happened while in the shop. That's what he said. Now, there's a lot of details in there that only this person would know, like where he parked and all that kind of shit. So, by the way, he wants Bond. He wants to get out. What? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He says that his whole family, they're all trying to get him out. They say he needs to be free and at home with his six month old daughter. Let's keep him away from her probably forever. OK.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
They said, well, if you don't let him out, then he can't fulfill his dream and become a minister. All righty.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Median home price, $275,500. That's pretty good. Not bad, but on $54,000 a year, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. History of this town, a little bit of it. It was named for Revolutionary War officer Benjamin Roebuck. And Roebuck, the town, not the man, is home to the Walnut Grove Plantation, which is a preserved 18th century farmhouse and tourist attraction located
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
One relative said she just wanted to cook him his favorite meals again. Isn't that nice? Oh, my God. That is fucking unbelievable. About 30 members of Satterfield's family presented letters to the judge protesting his release, and the judge went, we're going to go with that. We're going to go with you, suspected rapist murderer. Yeah. So April 30th, 2006, waiting on his trial.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He's incarcerated and waiting on trial. And apparently, Vic draped his feet out of a food hatch of the cell door, a little door that they put the food through, and then became belligerent when the jailer asked him to please remove his feet so they could put the food through. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So he blocks this when Officer Derek Jefferson Green opened the hatch to give him his food at the Spartanburg County Detention Center. Then Corporal Albert Alvin Jennings Jr. opened the cell door in order to stop Vic from blocking the hatch. They said Jennings and Vic then became involved in an altercation in which Vic yelled, quote, I'm going to kill you and your fucking family.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Which, obviously, I don't know how he's going to get to the family from prison. Probably not. So when the officers opened the door, he continued his aggressive behavior, made the verbal threats. They sprayed him with a quick burst of pepper spray, and he continued fighting and fighting until they contained him.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And he was charged with assaulting local correctional employees and threatening the life of a public official. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So the other young lady who's missing, Heather Rena Sellers, S-E-L-L-A-R-S. Vic is a suspect in the 2002 disappearance of then 20-year-old Heather Sellers, who was his former fiance and the last person to have seen her anywhere. Sellers' grandmother, Norma Jean Swan, told deputies she dropped Sellers off at work at the Waffle House at Highway 9 in the I-85. Jesus, that's depressing, man.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Can you imagine? Nope. Fuck. At about 2 p.m. to work second shift at the Waffle House that sits on two fucking interstates.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Oh, God. September 24th, 2002, and the family never heard from her again. So the mother told investigators, or the grandmother told investigators, that Sellers had a small bag of clothes and intended to spend the night with an aunt. A report said that she left her aunt's house with Vic.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
She had gone to her aunt's house. Mom dropped her off. She did her shift. Then she went to her aunt's house and left with Vic. Witnesses said they went to the Rainbow Lounge and then to Cocktails and Dreams, which is the fucking name of the movie in the terrible Tom Cruise movie, Cocktail. That's the bar that they were opening. Cocktails and Dreams. Yeah. They had like a pink logo. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And one of the daughters of the original owners, Kate Moore, was a scout for General Daniel Morgan during the Battle of Cowpens.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
It's the shittiest movie and the dumbest idea for anything. And that's what they did. Yeah. And dreams and dreams because it was his dream to have his own place of cocktails and dreams. And he wrote it on a cocktail napkin. Fucking awful movie. But Elizabeth's shoe was in it and she was cute at the time. So why not?
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Anyway, they said that witnesses said shortly after she disappeared, when they talked and were kind of canvassing the area, they said that that Heather was on drugs at the time and had also not picked up her paycheck at the Waffle House. Yeah, I guess that's what they said. They said that they went to two local bars. A photograph of Thicke is posted with the case summary as well in the thing.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Like, here's our only suspect, basically. Her last paycheck was for $81, by the way. Oh, man. So they had broken off their engagement two weeks earlier, but were still seeing each other. They did find Heather Seller's car at the bottom of a river, but her body was never found. Yeah. She's not alive. Let's say. No. So she she's that's just a mystery. So trial for Dana's murder, November 2006.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Now, because he committed the crime when he was 17, he's not eligible for the death penalty.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But he can't get the he can't get the death penalty. That's that's not one thing. So it's a four day trial. Not very long. Defense opening here a little bit. The lead defense attorney said that, yes, Dana Satterfield was brutally murdered and that a pubic hair was found on her body, though, and that pubic hair does not match Vic.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yeah. She was rocking it out. The county was founded in 1785 and named after the Spartan Rifles, which were a Spartan regiment, which was the local militia during the American Revolutionary War. So they're very much into the Revolutionary War in this part, which is nice because there's a lot of parts of South Carolina that are into a different war.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
The problem is also there was a struggle in the bathroom. This all happened in the bathroom. Oh, forget it. So how many pubes are in there? Yeah. It's a bathroom.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
She was. She was. That's the other thing.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
You don't know. She was dragged across the floor, too. So they said there's tons of different hair all over. She had like 15 people's hair on her.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So they said that didn't belong to Vic. And they said that that's crazy. And they said no test can show when the semen made contact with her body as well. So telling the jury, you keep an open mind. So their their theory is he came in, said, yo, what's up? You want to fix my hair? And she was like, not till I fuck you. And then they went in the back and he gave her the fucking business.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And then he was like, peace out, lady. And then while she was sitting there in the afterglow, some other guy came in and strangled her.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
While she still had her pants around her ankle, he came in and then raped her and dropped pubes everywhere, but didn't come because only that guy came. Okay. Yeah. They said DNA analysis cannot put a time frame on when it got there. Like she was cutting hair all night with sperm in her pubes.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
None. His friend laughed at him when he even suggested it was a possibility. An hour ago. Fuck. So a customer said that she was a customer, Reeves here, she was a customer and a friend of Dana and that she was in the salon to have her hair cut on July 25th, the week before, on Tuesday. When Reeves was in the chair, that's when she also got another call from Vic's mother.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Dana gets a call from Vic's mother, Marianne, Now, Reeves, who also knows Marianne Vick and had talked to her on the phone before, knew it was Marianne on the phone because Dana was behind Reeves when the phone call came and she recognized Marianne's voice. That's how small of a town this is.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
No. Jay Moore doesn't know her. No. Fucking no shit. Where's Rich Little when this is going on? So Reeves was asked why Marianne was calling. And then there was an objection in the middle of all that. The trial court overruled the objection and she testified this quote. She wanted Dana to look at Vic's hair that, you know, I don't know if he put something in it or had someone something.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
But she told her that it wouldn't take but about 10 minutes of her time. And Marianne could not excuse me. Dana could not do it that day. And it stated to Marianne that she was not able to do it. But if she would call her back, you know, it's been a time frame. So I don't know if she said come there the next day or to call her back or what.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So when asked about what she remembered about the conversation, she stated the conversation was to call back and she would take a look at it, but she could not do it that day. She said, I just heard a voice. And when Dana hung up, she obviously Marianne hung up on her because there was no goodbye.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And the victim, Dana, turned around to me and she just took a breath and said, Marianne Vick, like you all know she's a pain in the ass. Yeah. So they objected again and all this type of thing. And Reeves stated that Dana told her that it was Marianne Vick, at which point Reeves told Dana that she knew because she recognized the voice.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
The ship, the USS Spartanburg County, is named after Spartanburg County. So there's that. Reviews of this town. We've never been there. I don't know anything about Roebuck, South Carolina. Here's five stars. Roebuck is a small community that's quiet and easy to get around. It's tight-knit, safe, and serene.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Now, they also deny a state motion to preclude defense attorneys from introducing evidence that Mike Satterfield's fingerprints were found on the water heater where the body was found.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Well, Mike Satterfield testified in court that he installed the water heater two months before his wife's death. So my fingerprints are going to be on it.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I'm an HVAC guy. It's probably on the heater and the air conditioner also, I would bet.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yeah. And also another witness had told jurors that the man he saw crouch down near the crime scene was way too small to have been Mike Satterfield because Mike, you'd see from space. He's a giant fucking fat guy. I'm not trying to be a dick. This saves him in this.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
If you say, oh, yeah, six foot average build, whatever could be anybody. It's not Mike. That's one person. It's not. If you saw Mike first thing out of your mouth to be big guy, big belly, enormous man. Big fat guy. And he was home with his children as well. And they don't think that he hired a teenager to go rape and kill his wife when he's trying to get with her.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So the testimony and evidence altogether shows that Vic had a sexual desire to be with Dana and intended to visit her on the night of the murder. Vic threatened to kill the witness who could provide this information. He said, I'll kill you. A person matching the description of Vic was seen exiting the salon before she was beaten, before her body was found.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
A car similar to him in make, model, color, with distinctive rims was found around there. He confided to a cellmate all of the details, everything, and his DNA matched the semen found on her to the tune of 1 in 900 million.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
A lot of evidence here. The closings, prosecutors said this. I want you to speak the truth in a voice so loud that it will be heard in years to come. It's eight female jurors and four male jurors, by the way. And I want you to speak the truth so it bounds back through the halls of history to a beauty shop in Roebuck and a young mother hanging by a strap.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I want this courtroom to be full of justice when you come back. Okay, that's the silliest thing I've ever heard a person say. I want this courtroom to be full of a feeling or of justices. You don't get a more nebulous term than justice. To say I'd like it to be full of it is a weird thing to say.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Then he said, Jonathan Vick is a danger to our community and he doesn't ever deserve to see the light of day. So the defense said, come on. The defense said, please look past the emotion and look at the evidence. And then forget that also, you'd have to say. And then also forget all of that.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I've lived in Roebuck for nine years now, and the most danger I've been in is when a snake poked its nose into the family backyard. Okay. Okay. You really can't. No matter how much policing you have, I don't think it's going to help that situation. Yeah. A rural snake.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And then just said that Vic's fingerprints were not found at the crime scene and that DNA tests showed a pubic hair found on Dana's lower body did not belong to Vic. They said clearly what happened to her was tragic, but convicting the wrong person doesn't serve any purpose.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Oh, you never want to convict the wrong person.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I think we got this one. And the jury really thinks so because it took them less than 20 minutes of deliberation to come out with a verdict. They didn't even get a drink of water.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
They sat down. They always do a straw poll at first just to see where we stand. They sat down. Straw poll. All right, then. We're done. Let's go home. Peace out. That's it. He is found guilty on all counts, murder, criminal sexual conduct, and kidnapping as well.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So the prosecutor said later on, that's the jury's way of sending a message. It's less than the time it takes to watch a sitcom. That's how reprehensible we think you are. Goddamn. I could have an episode of Friends last longer than this. Fuck you.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Didn't even get there. So sentencing here. The prosecutor said only by his good fortune, only by his good fortune was he 17 at the time he committed it or else we would be at the start of the death penalty seeking phase. Vic's wife, Caroline, pleads with the judge prior to sentencing for the minimum sentence, noting that she and her husband have a young daughter at home.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
She said, I know he didn't do this. I know he didn't. Sobbing and crying.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Wow, you are fucked. Vic says this. He steps up and says, I got something to say. Quote, she did not get justice today. She will not as long as I sit behind bars.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Wow. So the judge says, let's make that a good long time. You, sir, may fuck off life with parole.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Okay. So his parole eligibility date starts October 24th, 2035.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
That is when he's eligible for parole.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yeah. Now, okay, he is sentenced there. Now, Heather Seller's family is there as well.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Because they just have their laser. I'm surprised if one of her brothers didn't murder this guy already or something. Like, how the fuck do you let this guy walk around?
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Oh, yeah. This is his jam here. So Seller's grandmother attended the court. She's the one who dropped her off at the Waffle House, Norma Jean, throughout the week and smiled as the verdict was announced. She later stood outside the courtrooms alongside Cora Kent, her granddaughter's friend, the murdered woman's friend or missing woman's friend, who was also Vic's ex-girlfriend as well.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Kent said that justice was served. She said they should have given him the chair, though. I'm in for an eye for an eye. As the Vick family left, Vick's younger brother then threatened her, this lady, and said, quote, you'll get yours.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And Vick's mother began to proclaim her son's innocence, and officers hurried the Vick family away from the property, you know, before they got attacked by the entire town and murdered in the street.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
fuck so Mike he's out there his reaction here he's outside hugging his kids and he said he took the denial of the crime in stride saying doesn't matter what he says the evidence points to him he said though that he thought he said I don't know maybe in his own mind he thinks he's innocent he said I don't know what people's heads do either way he did it so I don't care basically he said maybe it'll be a better he said now it'll he thinks maybe hopefully the future will be better he said maybe it'll be a better holiday and
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
That's what we're talking about, because I have garter snakes in my house. They're fine.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
This is coming up on the holiday season. He said the holidays will never be the same, but at least we got some closure. Ashley's 20 at this point, the daughter, and she said that she was glad Vic wouldn't be able to hurt anybody else while in jail and said that, quote, he can lie to himself all he wants. Her brother, Brandon, who was 17 at this point, he said he got what he deserved.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Dana's mother said that it was a smack in the face to hear Vic deny his guilt, but added that she was surprised he said anything. She said, at least we've put this person away for life where he can't hurt anyone else. We wanted him where he could not hurt anybody or control anybody else. Now, he goes to court for his fucking problems with the prison guards there.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
All of my closest friends live in Roebuck as well, and the town has been a key part of growing up for all of us. The community keeps you grounded, and the people are down to earth. It isn't that far from restaurants of the city. Making it easy to go to and from what city? I have no idea what they're talking about. What do they consider a city?
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
You can't threaten to kill people in jail. So when he goes to court for that, he is found guilty of threatening the life of a public official and assault on a correctional officer in a two-day jury trial. They sentence him to, you, sir, may fuck off three more years in prison because of that. So, yeah, even if he gets parole in 2035, he then has to go serve that.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So that's going to be on top of it. Also, he has he's a fuck up, though. He's not going to get paroled. If he does, it's not going to be for a long time because he has been in the special management unit, which is 23 hour a day lockdown for at that for one point six months after a punishment for attacking a fellow inmate. Then he's transferred. He has all sorts of.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He appeals the case very quickly here. He maintains that testimony related in detail. The substance of what that what that the phone call. He's saying that phone call, the substance of that phone call, that that woman overheard the mother wanting Dana to fix Michael's hair or not Michael Jonathan's hair.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
recognizing her voice and saying that because they're saying it was hearsay that she said that this person told her it was Marianne. They said that doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter. Explain your jizz, sir. That's the point. Your jizz is not where it shouldn't be. I know where all my jizz is. You know what I'm saying?
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I can tell you where it is and it's nowhere out there. It's not, there's not a hair salon on earth where my jizz can be found. And that's, that's important here.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So they ended up taking a couple of his points on the appeal, but it doesn't matter because his sentence stands and everything stands. So he's kind of shit out of luck there. They said his guilt was conclusively proven such that any error in admission of evidence would be harmless. D-N-fucking-A. He still denies it.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He still continues to maintain an unknown assailant did the whole thing and his fucking everything. Sure. Then he wants a new trial as well. Oh. He's got to have a new trial. He said his personal research on the topic led him to believe the sample could have been contaminated. Oh. The DNA sample. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He did his own research from jail where you have the best internet access and access to top experts.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He said that led him to on a topic to believe that the DNA sample could have been contaminated and said he was under the impression that another DNA expert was going to testify for the defense. And so, you know, he said, but I didn't ever get that. He said, I felt there was no way to get a fair trial in this town with all the media exposure. I was looking forward to a day in court.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I was looking forward to my day of standing up here and telling the world, hey, I didn't do this. He never testified, by the way. He could have was more than welcome to do that. I'm not this monster these people think are trying to make me out to be in the media. I was looking forward to that. I felt that was important for people to hear my own from my own mouth.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
No one was defending me at the time. I was the only person to defend myself in the media and in court. Wow. You're just now Ashley. She went on to have two children of her own and she became a victim advocate for the Spartanburg County Sheriff's Office. And she said that she makes herself available at all hours for victims in case someone needs to talk.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Uh, she attends bond hearings with, with them also for the, against the people and encourages them to draft impact statements and read them at sentencing hearings. She also started a jailhouse program to make inmates aware of the effects of their, that their crimes have on victims families. She said, quote, you just don't get over it. You learn how to live with it.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Not sure. Four stars. I love Roebuck because of the atmosphere. Everyone feels like family. I love driving down the road and seeing huge fields of corn and wildflowers. I wish there was a little more to do and more stores and restaurants in Roebuck. But overall, I love living here. And then it wouldn't be a small town that you love with corn.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So this is kind of my way of living with it. And she also operates her own photography business as well there. Now the Heather sellers case, uh, Okay. They said that any other crimes that might involve Vic, they're investigating him for all sorts of shit. He's considered a person of interest in her disappearance. I would say more than that.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
In 2006, authorities found bloodstains and blonde hair in an abandoned vehicle registered to Vic. They believe the blood and hair may be from cellars, but the samples were broken down and couldn't get good DNA on it. Yeah. They said if he's involved in anything else, we're never going to quit looking. We do not believe he is squeaky clean.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
We don't believe he's as squeaky clean as his lawyers and his mama believe. He's an evil, evil person. Now, he was considered a possible suspect in the disappearance of another person, one of Sellers' fellow Waffle House employees, Michelle Whitaker, who disappeared in August 2002, around the same time Sellers did. But turns out in 2008, when the cops were investigating it, they found her alive.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
She was alive. She had left on her own and just wasn't aware anyone was looking for. She's so inconsequential that it didn't even like it never came up.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
He's at the Ridgeland correctional facility or whatever right now. It just says Ridgeland. Parole 10-24-2035. He's eligible for parole. He's had loss of privileges a bunch of times. Cell phones and fighting and all this type of shit.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Dana is buried at the Heritage Memorial Gardens in Roebuck there, and this has been on a bunch of different TV shows, everything from Forensic Files to Unsolved Mysteries to Paula Zahn to all this shit.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I really, really hope not because he's dangerous. That's a dangerous fucking man. So there you go. There is Roebuck, South Carolina. Got to get to the end quick here. If you like the show, get on whatever app you're listening on and please give us five stars. It helps so fucking much and we don't understand why. Follow us on social media at smalltownmurder on Instagram, smalltownpod on Facebook.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Definitely head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Tickets for the 420 virtual goddamn live show. Can't wait. Anywhere in the world with an internet connection, just like a live show. The pictures, the story. We're in costumes. Jimmy's going to be forced to do bong hits. It takes place Saturday, April 19th, and it's available for two weeks after that. Get your tickets.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Also, get your tickets for Chicago in May. Get them right now. For the rest of the year as well, shut up and give me murder.com. Patreon.com slash crimeinsports. All the bonus material that you could possibly handle. Hundreds of back episodes immediately upon subscription. Anybody $5 a month or above. And you get new ones every other week. This week, Crime and Sports.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
We are going to talk about more sports songs. Chris Webber rapping and a bunch of other terrible shit. And then for Small Town Murder, the... con Juan, the con man Casanova, Louis Carlucci, who is just some like tubby Guinea guy and fucking in New York in the eighties who was scamming a bunch of women and they couldn't find him. And it was why the whole city was looking for him. It was crazy.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
They put those strip malls in the fields where the corn and the wildflowers used to be. And then you complain about that. Four stars. Small town. That's the first sentence. We get it. Around five minutes from the pure countryside. Pure. Pure. No anything. Raw and uncut. Uncut. Fucking. Circle of. Not stepped on at all. Yeah. Naturally cool and comfortable weather.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Talk about that. That is patrion.com slash crime in sports to get a shout out at the end of the regular show. Yep. Want to follow us on social media? Super easy to do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Drop down menus coming out of your ass. Get in there, everybody. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Very close distance and easy access to Highway 221. Oh, well, now I'm going to move there. I wasn't into it before, but now you say it's close to Highway 221. It's where everything's happening on the old Highway 221. Things to do here. We have the Festy Fall.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Festival. Come time travel with us to the back country of South Carolina. No, thanks.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
How far? Depends on how far back we're going. How far are we going?
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Experience life in 1781 during the American Revolutionary War with live demonstrations of cannon fire, cooking, spinning, camp life, music, and more. Sounds like a 1781-themed joint here.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yeah, you show up in your flowing shit dressed like a wizard, and they're like... The hell are you doing, boy? What's wrong with you? And then children's activities happening all day, including candle dipping, quill writing, tin punching, tricorn hats. You can't get the kids to stop quill writing. That's the thing.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
My kids, the whole growing up, it was just like, well, you stop it with that quill already. Put it down. You know, play a video game or something. Get on fucking social media. Wink asleep in here with all the tin punching. It's constant. The tin punching, Mike. Constant candle dipping. We have enough candles, kids. With your tricorn hats quill-writing all over the place. It's enough, damn it.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Who the fuck knows what they're doing down there. Horn books. I don't know what that is. And sweet bags. What the fuck is that? Sweet bags. They sound like they're just mad-libbing words together now. Saturday, also, there will be a Bluegrass concert. They don't say who will be there, but they'll be playing Bluegrass and they'll be live and in concert.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
That said, let's talk about some murder, shall we? Here we go. All right, let's do this. Let's start out with a young lady here. Mm-hmm. Dana Shailene Fowler is how she's born. Dana here. She's born November 16th, 1967 in Spartanburg, which is nearby. That's the city. It's the county seat and all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And she's a really, she's an outgoing girl and all this type of thing and grows up to be real pretty, too. I'll show you a picture of her here. She looks a lot like married with children era Christina Applegate. That's who she looks like. Very much like that.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay and choo-choo. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. We have a lot today. This is like 10 pounds of murder in a two-pound bag, as usual.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yeah, she's a pretty girl. So she looks, like I said, and that picture's from the late 80s, too.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yeah, she does. Big nails and shit, red nails. In high school, she met a young man and got married as soon as they graduated. Well, smart move, man. Yeah, he's like, I'm going to try to lock that down. But it didn't work out very well.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
They had a daughter named Ashley right away. And then it fell apart after she gave birth. You know, because they were 19 and had a baby. And that's difficult. It's not an easy thing. Then she met Paul Michael Satterfield. He's known as Mike. Mike Satterfield. He's born in 1962. You know, about five years older. And he, I mean, physically, I don't mean to be shitty to the guy, but...
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
This guy looks like a fucking inflated balloon. Yeah. He's a Peter Griffin. He's a very, very chunky man, let's just say, and not like a hot guy either. You know what I mean? Not like, oh, he's big, but he's a handsome big. He looks like a guy, no matter what he weighed, he wouldn't look very good, and he also has an enormous gut that's hanging over his belly.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Big time. So they have a son named Brandon, and Mike owns his own HVAC company. So he's doing heating and air conditioning here. Now, this goes on for a while, and their marriage is okay for a few years. And then by 1995, though, they start to have some problems. Okay. Dana, when she was when the kids were very young, she stayed home with the kids and Mike did his business.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And Dana would work, you know, kind of part time here and there to supplement the income. But as the kids got school age, she decided she wanted to do something with herself. So she opened up her own beauty salon. Great. It's a beauty and tanning place that she owns. So she does that by 1995, though. Dana and Mike are separated.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
here they're talking about a divorce and they have moved out from each other and it's not going well uh here for them but they're not it's not acrimonious really um and i can i would assume not because on july 30th 1995 this is they're separated they're living apart you know everything like that they spend the night of july 30th together with the children eat dinner watch tv and spend the night together at on july 30th so there's definitely like a
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
They're not in a heated divorce or anything like that. It's just not working out. So, by the way, a little about her salon. It's called Roebuck Beauty and Tanning Salon. And that's where she has to go the next morning. She's got clients and shit coming in. And he has to go install fucking vents.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
I don't think this guy's crawling in anybody's attic.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
When they made a crawl space, they said, nobody like Three Bills is going to crawl in here, right? No, that's enough crawl space for everybody, right?
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Yeah, this dude is not fitting through into your fucking vent. I'll tell you that much. He's going to have feet kicking out of it if you try. So they get up the next morning, scramble to get ready for work and all that kind of thing, and they make plans to again have dinner that evening.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
We have a murder that's definitely solved and then a Another one that might, we don't know. Yeah, we got a guy that might have done some really bad stuff to way more people than he's been caught for. So we'll talk all about that and more. But first, head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. What do you get there, you may ask? Well, merchandise, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So for a divorcing couple, things seem to be going pretty well.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
They're getting along. So this is July 31st, 1995, and it's down here, and she works a whole day. He goes to work, does his HVAC, and then he has the kids after work, and she has her salon, and she has appointments here. A woman named Patty Taylor arrives at the salon at 6.30 p.m. on July 31st for a hair appointment. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And after she arrives, another woman named Diane Harris shows up selling products, a cleaning product. So, you know, I'm sure to get die off of shit or something like that and made a demonstration for us. Let me show you what I'm doing. So she said, sure, she's doing this lady's hair. They both watch Diane Harris do a demonstration.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And then Dana ends up purchasing a bottle of the cleaner from this woman.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And this woman's like going door to door of all the businesses trying to sell them cleaner. I don't know. So that sounds like a tough job. Yeah. So she Dana continues to work on this Patty Taylor's hair until a little before they kind of she gets there about 630. They're going in with the hair by seven. They're really doing it. She's got to wash it and do all that kind of shit.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And then by eight, they finish up with the hair. So during this time, you know, she's finishing it up and Dana is sweeping and cleaning up the shop, getting ready to close it up for the night. Taylor pays her and Dana walks this Patty Taylor to the door and tells Patty Taylor that I have some clothes in the dryer and I'm going to be right behind you leaving here right now.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
And so this woman said, oh, you want me to stay until you lock your shop up that we don't have to sit here by yourself? And, you know, it's dark out and that kind of thing. She said, no, no, that's OK. She said, I'll be right behind you. It's only I have five minutes left on the dryer. So, you know, don't you have to stand here waiting for me? It's five minutes. Don't worry about it.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
So she said she left the shop at about 8, 10, 8, 15. This Patty Taylor takes off now simultaneously to all this going on. There is a couple of guys hanging out at a bowling alley.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Just chilling here. David Michael Pace and Jonathan Christian Vick. And they're both 17 years old, went to high school together. I think David might be a year older than Jonathan, but Jonathan is 17. Jonathan Christian Vick. And, you know, they became friends in high school and have been friends since then.
Small Town Murder
#580 - Beauty Shop Butcher - Roebuck, South Carolina
Michael Pace, or David Michael Pace, works at the bowling alley, and Vick would come by a couple times a month on Friday or Saturday nights. You know, 17, cruising the bowling alley for all the chicks. Yeah. So he this particular night, Jonathan Vick comes in to visit his friend at work and he's hanging out at the bowling alley.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She was asked later on, was there any problem with the life insurance money with that? And Kelsey replied, the problem, the problem was that she was the beneficiary and she got all the money. Yeah, she said that the mother told her, Robin told her that her dad only had a $25,000 life insurance, but then when they were at the father's house cleaning it, she found a $100,000 policy to her mother.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
No shit. So she said that this whole situation was shady, this is the daughter, because Robin bought a trailblazer, a Chevy trailblazer truck with cash, bought our guy here, bought Davis a new boat. Oh. And with cash and remodeled the house with new hardwood floors, new kitchen appliances, and hired a professional painter to paint the entire house and a professional landscaper to landscape it.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's the best way to do it. Well, it is her ex-husband, but still.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's what I mean. Spend it. But the kids are upset that they didn't get any part of this. They got nothing. She used the money and basically spent it on a new house to be with her new boyfriend at the time, or her new husband. Because as soon as he died, they got married. That's why they didn't get married before that is because she was keeping this guy on his health insurance, which is a great.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So you can watch it anytime and buy it anytime in there.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Will you marry me? Well, I'd like to. But you see, I'd sure love to. Here's why I can't. That would be a tough proposal of rejection for a guy.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Is that possible? Can we do that? So Kelsey also described Robin as being unfair to other people. She said that's just kind of how she was. Kelsey described Sissy as like her second mom because she's always there. She said that Sissy lived with them for four years, never paying any rent or even buying groceries. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
also get your tickets for regular live shows in may will be in st louis and chicago st louis i think is sold out but chicago has tickets left get them right now you don't want to let st louis out sell you that's not okay for chicago i don't think so get in there shut up and give me murder.com as well as listen to our other two shows crime in sports which we are doing an evil kenevil series right now we are yeah smack dab in the middle of a very long evil kenevil series with a
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She said that Sissy didn't have any money and did not have to have any money as long as she hung around with my mom, basically. My mom just took care of her. So I don't know what's going on here between these two, but it doesn't sound like a typical friendship.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
This sounds like a Ruby Frankie situation almost.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
He's going to be sleeping on the couch soon.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
With candles lit in the other room. So here's the house. It's at 1314 Wedgwood Drive. And right now, currently, it is worth $40,300. In this market. Yeah. Okay. Look, there it is.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
40 grand for a trailer.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's just a trailer. It's not bad. It's a long trailer with a shed out back there.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And in this house, we know the couple lives. We know Sissy lives. There's another woman named Stephanie that lives here at this time as well. What the fuck? And Kelsey seems to come and go and have keys and work and live here too. So I don't know how many adults live in this house. There's a lot of grown-ups. There's too many adults for one house.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Now, the ladies, Sissy and Robin, get into some trouble. They are both. They both worked at the insurance company and they're both fired after Sissy was caught stealing money. And Robin, the way they put it, quote, failed to speak up about her knowledge of the crime. In other words, they stole money together is what that means, probably. And even getting fired, they weren't.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Now, March 2009, Robin learns that her husband here, Brian, of a year, basically, was having an affair at work. Okay. I don't know if this is as soon as she got fired or whatever, but this affair has been going on for like a year and a half. So he was planning a wedding while having an affair. That's remarkable to me. Remarkable. Remarkable. Why? Why get married? You want to have affairs.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Have affairs. Don't get married.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's what I mean. What the fuck? So anyway, she found out about the affair, Robin does, and confronted this Fanny Dietz. That's the lady's name who's having an affair. Fanny Dietz. Having an affair with Fanny. I don't know a Fanny that's not smoking hot. We all know that.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Now, Brian has a video poker habit, let's call it, that became such an issue that he became and this is not normally he pays his bills on time and he's very good at shit like that. He became behind in his child support payments and the mortgage. There's a mortgage on that trailer.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And he's behind on it. What the fuck is the payment? I mean, what are we talking about here?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
He'll have it paid off in no time. Wow. Yeah, that's ridiculous. There should be no homeowner's insurance on that shit. So Robin also likes to gamble.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Oh, yeah. The two of them gamble.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The only thing worse than one person in a relationship gambling is both people in a relationship gambling, like excessively more than you can afford, not for fun. So Justin, who is Robin's son, knew of the affair as well because he worked with them. So he knew what was going on. Apparently, also according to Justin, Brian would stop to play video poker on the way to work in the mornings.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Wow. Anything you do on the way to work is a couple quick hands of poker. You are addicted. If you stop for a drink on the way to work, you have a problem. That's called a problem. Anything you have to do before you even get to work is a problem. Especially if it costs you money. Oh, that might be an unspecified amount. It could be anything.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Very crazy stuff. And then also your stupid opinions. It's just hilarious. And you should listen to us read people's complaints about things from the Internet. Patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all the bonus material. All you need to be is five dollars a month or above. And you get, first of all, hundreds of bonus episodes you've never heard before immediately upon subscription.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And then sometimes on the way home, he'd stop and play more poker.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Wow. I guess it escalated in 2009 is when his poker really shot up and he started getting behind on things and everything like that. And Robin gambles as well here. And she also goes out to eat at a diner, KD's Diner in Lake Charles all the time. And there is poker machines at the diner. So she is always at the diner having a bite to eat, playing some poker. She's a regular. So, June 29th, 2009.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Okay. Now, Brian is out with Robin looking at boats because that's what you do when you're behind on your child support and your mortgage. You go boat shopping, obviously.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
What are we doing here, dude? No, he's just shopping for new boats. He apparently they looked for boats around the Lake Charles area and then he apparently went on his own to Beaumont, Texas, which is about an hour and a half away to boat shop there.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And is behind on his trailer payments.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
He is behind on his double wide payment, and he's doing this, which doesn't sound... Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, is that what it is? That's what it is, yeah. I figured we'd just let it go, but yeah. I wasn't going to correct you on it. Fuck it. I was like, close enough, whatever. That's exactly what I was like. We don't need to get caught up on that. So he did. He ended up not coming home that night.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Which I guess there was some really bad, violent thunderstorms that happened that night. So that's what they were attributing. It was, oh, he must have got stuck in the weather up there. You know what I mean? It's so bad because they have like roads that flood and shit when that happens. But then he didn't come home at all.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So Robin calls the police the next day to see about reporting him missing and was told that she must wait 24 hours from the time that she expected him home.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
No, no, no. From the last time you expected him home. So that's when he would be missing, as you expected him here and he didn't show up. So that's about 9 o'clock we're talking, that night type of thing here. So the next morning, she calls his job, calls Brian's job, and learned that no one there had heard from him. See, maybe he showed up at work. Maybe he drove right to work.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So then she called a friend of his and said, hey, have you seen him? Have you heard from him? And he said, no, I haven't. So then she called the police that night, which is 24 hours. And a policeman came to the house. Mark Chapman, an officer here with the Lake Charles Police Department, showed up and he went over there at about 430 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
and was given a statement by Robin that he was supposed to be heading to Belmont, Texas, to go boat shopping in his Honda. Last time I saw him.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah, not a big pickup truck or anything. He's not going to tow it home. He's just shopping.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's staying there. Unless they could drop it in the Gulf for him and stay in there for a while.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Then new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And you get it all. This week is no different for Crime and Sports this week. We're going to do part two of more sports songs. Can't wait. More athletes singing horribly. We'll hear more of Manny Pacquiao breaking glass with his voice and Chris Webber attempting to rap. It's going to be hilarious. I can't wait for that.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Drive your Accord up there and see what happens. So July 1st, 2009, because that was the 28th, 29th. Now we're off to July 1st here. This is off of Big Lake Road in this area. It's the end of Wagon Wheel Lane. Now, let me show you this road.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah. It's dirt. It's dirt. Not even like the middle of it has a lot of green in it. Yeah, a lot of big chunks of grass. This is not a populated area.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's the middle of nowhere. Yeah, and you can see the lake in the background, too. It's out there. Now, they are called by a guy who is riding an ATV. Mm-hmm. A guy who had been riding an ATV saw a car out there and normally there aren't cars out there and called the police about it. You know, because it's not a road and all.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's not a road. No, this is a four-wheeler path is what it is. This is not a road that you would take a Honda Civic on either. This is not a Honda road at all. I wouldn't take my car on that fucking road.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Absolutely not. So I'd take your truck, but not your car. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So deputies respond to the scene and they find a car. It's a Honda. The trunk and doors are open, and the car looked like it had been jacked up to change a tire.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Okay, so it looks like it's mid-tire change. The car was up on the jack. The lug nuts were removed from a tire, while a spare tire, the donut, was on the ground nearby. So this is mid-tire change.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Then for Small Town Murder, it's a con man from the 80s in New York City, a guy named Louis Carlucci, otherwise known as Con Juan or the Con Man Casanova.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So this vehicle that's out here is registered to Robin. This is Robin's vehicle. And they call that in and they realize that she had reported her husband missing. So this is all making sense. A couple other things here. Brian is also nearby the vehicle.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Some distance away, though. And he is clearly dead and has been dead for a couple days in the Louisiana heat.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Because it's summer in Louisiana. It's hot, man. He's been out here a couple days. His driver's license was found in the vehicle. Okay. Now, according to the autopsy here, it's pretty fucking crazy here. They identify him by dental records in the presence of tattoos on his body because even after a couple of days, the decomp is setting in pretty serious.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So the coroner estimated the time of death between to be sometime after 12 p.m. on June 29th. He's dead of four gunshot wounds.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Three to the torso and one to the head. And they think, yeah, they think he was hit once, started running, hit two more times, fell, and then somebody did the last shot in the head to make sure here, which is very odd here. His shoes were off and his belt was loosened. Hmm. So that makes no sense. Like he was chilling out in front of the fire getting ready to watch some TV or some shit.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
In a field especially. It's just weird. So it's not like it was in your garage and you were changing attire. So that was odd. They said it appeared that either he was having some kind of encounter with somebody like sexual. Sure. Or somebody or someone was looking for something on him. Now, the thing is, though, he had a big known to be valuable ring on his hand that was still on his hand.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
He's not at all. That's the great part. He scammed all these women. It's insanity. And they couldn't find him and they didn't know who he was. And he was like this mystery person for like years. Somehow he went under the radar. So we'll talk about that. Patreon.com.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Still there. But the firearm that he carries everywhere was not in the car or at the scene. His GPS and his laptop are also gone. And we know those are going to be in the car. So that's interesting. And the problem is. This happened on a night of very inclement weather, and there's been storms since then.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So a lot of forensic evidence, especially ones from the lug nuts and the jack, are probably gone if there was DNA on there. So that's a problem. Now, they are going to pull a couple of samples, though, which is interesting.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Now, they tell Robin, your husband's dead. Second husband in fucking a year and a half is dead.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah, you don't see that that often. With young people, this guy's 40, for Christ's sake. He's not 80. He's not Gene Hackman, for fuck's sake. Sorry. Too soon for Gene Hackman.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I'm so fucking upset. We found out – we expected this to be like juicy.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Or carbon monoxide and it turns out it's just weird. It's just – And it's sad because he was like – So sad. Just had Alzheimer's and didn't even know it was happening and like, ah.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn't know what he was doing. He was in bad shape.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So the cops tell Robin about this, and they said at the time she was dry heaving and or vomiting when she heard about it. She was cooperative with the detectives and told them that on the day he disappeared, he was supposed to be going boat shopping in Beaumont.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She also said that he had been, quote, rat holing, which sounds sexual, but it's not rat holing about seven hundred dollars for a new boat. He's been rat-holing it. Pay your mortgage. Why don't you rat-hole that on over to U.S. Bank and pay your fucking mortgage? Or your child support. But whatever.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They asked if he kept his money in his sock, and she said he did from time to time because of the nature of his job collecting insurance premiums. In cash? Door to door? How is he collecting insurance?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I would think that's all electronic and checks and you mail them. I don't think a guy comes to your house and he's like, Hey, where's your fucking health insurance payment? Nah, cash, asshole, cash.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I've never seen them. Called them, and they sent me emails, and that's it. That's what I know.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the regular show too jimmy will mispronounce your name that said i think it's time everybody what do you say here let's all sit back oh boy let's clear the lungs and let's all shout shut up and give me murder let's do this everybody okay Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I have an app on my phone. It's all electronic. Done. Don't even fuck with it. July 2nd, 2009. Now, the next day, they sit Robin down and get a timeline from her. They try to pin down a timeline of who did what and when. The subject of the extramarital affairs came up, of course.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They said she appeared stone-faced during this interview and didn't shed any tears as people were offering her consolation and saying they were sorry about it. Sure. So this detective spoke with her in order to gather background information and establish a timeline of maybe the whereabouts of Brian on the day he died here.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So Robin told this detective that the victim, Brian, took off for work early that morning. She said that he drove her trailblazer to work because his Honda Accord was having wheel trouble.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So he wanted to go boat shopping. So he came home early for more. This guy has financial problems. He's coming home early from work to go boat shopping.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah. So 11 a.m. here, he leaves work. And the two of them, Robin and Brian, went boat shopping in Lake Charles and then went to Jerry's Marine in Sulphur, a town called Sulphur.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
A town of the worst smell that's ever existed. Great. They arrived back at home at about 2.30 or 3 that afternoon. She said at that time he took his Honda Accord and headed to Beaumont to continue his boat shopping. Now, if his car was fucked up, too fucked up to go to work, who's taking it on an hour and a half trip out of state?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It makes no sense whatsoever.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah, it doesn't make sense. I guess the Amy Davis, who is I think it's his sister in law, Brian's sister in law. spoke with a boat dealership in Beaumont that remembered Brian calling to say he was headed that way to look at a specific model, but he never made it there. So we're pretty sure he never made it to Beaumont to begin with here.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So Robin said, though, when he headed to Beaumont in his Accord, she took her trailblazer to go run errands, go to the cleaners, the grocery store, and get an oil change. They said that they talk about the life insurance policy. She said, well, he had two life insurance policies, one for ninety thousand and one for forty thousand.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The she also told the detective that she learned in March 2009 that he had been having an affair with Fannie Dietz, a co-worker. When she found out about it, she confronted Dietz here. She said, you know, just put that out there. I did confront a woman. There was some some drama there. She said she had an alibi, though.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She said that on the day her husband went missing, she's running errands with Sissy. That's all she said. Then she talked about Fannie Dietz and all that. So Kelsey comes in, Robin's daughter. She said she arrived at the house here. Again, she lives here, it looks like, at around 7.30 in the morning the day he was killed.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Kelsey was with her boyfriend, and they went to sleep until approximately 2 p.m.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I hope so, yeah. Either that or they just had a fuck afternoon. Now, Kelsey left with her boyfriend and didn't arrive back home until 9 p.m. that night. According to Kelsey, Robin told her that Brian never came home from work and no one could get in touch with him.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So they said that and she also said that when the police called her and told her about that, he died, that she was crying and throwing up. July 4th now, 4th of July, here in Louisiana's playground, I would think the outdoor shit, they'd be going crazy on this day.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Oh, it's happening. Instead, though, there's a funeral that day. Now, Robin went to the funeral, but there's a post-funeral memorial service where they're all going to talk to. She skipped that and went and played video poker. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
We're going down to Louisiana this week, Lake Charles, Louisiana.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They love this video poker, dude. On the way to work, at my husband's funeral, doesn't matter.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So a few days go by, July 9th comes, and the detectives receive permission from Robin to search her residence and the trailblazer. And they also, with the help of Justin, her son... They collect a box of ammunition that belonged to Brian. It contained nine millimeter hydroshock rounds.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Okay. Now, Robin gave a formal statement on the 9th. In this statement, she repeated much of what she already told them. She also told them that she spoke to Brian once after she and he went their separate ways on the day of the murder.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
OK, then when she attempted to call again, the call went straight to voicemail. She also said she told detectives that before she and Brian left to go boat shopping, that Brian had went to Kroger to get his sick daughter, Bailey, some soup. She lives here, too. How many people fucking live in this house, dude? It's a trailer.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
You've heard of it? Yeah, and it's a little bit bigger of a place, but where this whole thing happened was on a dirt road and the edge of it. It was pretty rural. This is definitely some small town stuff here. So Lake Charles, it's in southwestern Louisiana, kind of all the way in the corner down there. It is three hours over to New Orleans.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I'm counting at least six people so far that live in the adults.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
There can't be more than three small bedrooms in this joint. There can't be. It's a fucking trailer. So this is wild. Catherine Davis, Brian's sister, said that Robin told her that Brian never returned from Kroger. In her statement to detectives, though, Robin said that she and he went boat shopping after he returned from Kroger and later split ways.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So we don't know if maybe Brian's sister is confused and in her, you know, somebody is in her just sadness. She didn't really get the timeline right or whatever, but that's that could be that. So we'll give her that after they split, though. Robin says she picked up Sissy to go run errands. And she also told the detective that the that the Fannie Dietz's husband, Shane, thought
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
threatened to beat brian's ass and get him fired as well oh my god she's married too oh yeah they're both married yeah absolutely oh my god so the district manager for the insurance company said that brian told him that his mistress's husband shane might try to have him fired hey just in case this comes up i'm plowing fanny so that could that could be a problem later for everybody
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So they said, how was your finances? They ask her. Robin.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She said her account was overdrawn by almost $800. Oh, my God. I don't even know how you overdraw $800. I don't know how they keep letting you take it.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And that her house, the fucking mortgage hasn't been paid since March. We are in July. We're in July. And they currently own zero car insurance for anything they own. Nothing is insured. You're insurance people. You go to and you're just going to play video poker. I don't know what to say here about this. I don't mean to judge people, but that seems irresponsible.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I'm going down with the ship. I got nothing anyway, I guess.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's what I mean. I don't know what's going on.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's a lot, dude. So she said that despite their financial situation, that Daryl Pettifer of Jerry's Marine said that on the day Brian was murdered, he was looking at a $30,000 boat.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Which at the time is worth more than his house. Literally. He told this guy he planned to pay for the boat with a settlement or a lump sum of cash that he was getting in the near future. From where? What are we talking about? I don't know how much he's coming into. I don't know anything. I don't know any money he's got coming up to him.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's two hours to Houston, so it's closer to Houston than New Orleans in distance. And it's about three hours if you go straight north up to Keithville, Louisiana, which was our last Louisiana episode. It's been a while. That was episode 518, Conspiracy of Fools that one was. And that was everybody conspiring to kill one man and take all his stuff.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
There's nothing like in the pipeline that he's waiting for a thing or like somebody died, he's getting an inheritance, none of that. So the district attorney asked the detective to look at withdrawals and expenditures beginning in February 2009. The record showed overdraft charges, frequent withdrawals, and withdrawals at gaming establishments. In particular, on July 10th,
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Robin Davis, her card was used to purchase $102.75 at Casino Gaming, which is probably the ATM. On July 11th here, she wrote four checks at KD's Diner, $202.75, $102.75, $102.75, and $62.75.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And that's the place that has the video poker at the diner.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Then they look at her cell records here, and they became concerned, the detective said, with information they learned from her cell phone records. A call made by Robin at 3.50 p.m. pinged off a tower on Elliott Road in Lake Charles. According to the detective, the tower is just south of the area, or is south of the area where she had been claiming to run errands.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
There's other towers that would have pinged her if she was in that area.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah. They bring in Franny Dietz for questioning, which I would consider her. You mean definitely. Yeah. I say Franny Fanny. Yes. Fanny Dietz here. They bring her in for questioning. She's obviously considered a person of interest because her husband had threatened to beat his ass. So. You know, yeah, she knew about that.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And also, I guess she said that Robin's son, Justin, didn't get along with Brian either. So Fannie said they had an affair for about a year and a half. It ended in March 2009 when Robin confronted her about it. According to her, her husband, Shane, also confronted Brian about the affair. Shane confirmed that he confronted Brian about the affair, but but not but denied ever threatening him.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So Fannie was questioned and took officers to a spot at which she had previously used to meet him, I guess to fuck in a car. They described it as being a spot off of Henry Pugh Boulevard, which runs off of Big Lake Road near Calcasieu Point Landing. So that's in this area. The body was found less than a mile from here. Away from his fuck spot? Away from his fuck spot, yeah. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So the detective also says that her phone record showed that she was I guess she was far away from here on June 29th. She was in Crowley that day. So the detective also says that Shane, her husband's phone record show that he was not in Lake Charles on June 29th either. So that neither of them are around that day. They're clear pretty much.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They said there was a gap of several hours between phone calls for both Mr. and Mrs. Dietz, and Shane's records showed that he made a phone call at 2.50 p.m., then received no other calls or texts until he received a text at 10.54 p.m., which complete radio silence from anybody in the world for fucking hours like that. Congratulations.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Like everyone he knew in the world was all in one big conspiracy against him. So that's a funny episode. Population here is 83,444. So a little bit bigger. It was about $70,000 when the murder happened, but still in that ballpark. Median household income here is about $20,000 lower than the national average. National average is $69,000. Here it's $49,913. So very low.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And the phone records for Fanny showed no activity between 9.28 a.m. and 4.56 p.m.,
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Shit, five. That's fucking seven and a half. From 9.28 a.m. to 4.56 p.m.? Oh, I was going the other way.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I don't know. And then according to the detectives also, they spoke with Shane's boss who verified that he was at work on the day of the disappearance. And digging more into the cell records, they'd clear the deets. They didn't do it. Now, the insurance. When they spoke with Davis, she said $90,000 and $40,000. Remember? That was the insurance money that she was getting from Brian.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Later on, however, they learned from the State Farm Insurance agent that there were two additional policies, one in the amount of $100,000 and another in the amount of $250,000 that she didn't tell him about.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yep. And there's a couple other ones here and there that have an additional hundred and fifty thousand for accidental deaths.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Four policies totaling six hundred forty five thousand dollars, which is a lot more than one hundred and thirty.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's like, yeah, especially if you live in a trailer that's five months behind your fucking mortgage. You could buy the whole neighborhood for that.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Oh, my God. So they also dug into it and figured out that Robin collected an insurance payout after her first husband died in a car accident.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So they're like, who gets two insurance payouts in a year and a half?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah. They're thinking maybe she realized dead husband means insurance money.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So physical evidence. Now, one of the deputies that responded to the murder scene said that Brian's vehicle appeared to be having tire trouble. The lug nuts were taken off in one of the tires and the spare tire was on the ground in order to protect the tire from further damage during the towing process. They replaced the seemingly the detect.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The deputy replaced the seemingly damaged tire with the spare. Why would you do that? Don't do that.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The tire was taken to Southern Tire Mart to be examined for defects. The store manager testified later that he found no defects in the tire. So there was nothing wrong with the tire. Why it would have been changed, which is strange. They also said that it does not happen often, but new tires sometimes will leak if they're not sealed well around the rim.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They said there's also situations which a tire can go flat even if there's no damage to the outer part of the tire. There's lots of ways a tire can go flat. Yeah, if your valve is a little fucked up or something like that.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah, just coming out. So the Southwest Louisiana Crime Lab person, Lynn Miller, was asked to examine fingerprints lifted from the crime scene in the case. The fingerprints were lifted from the car jack, the windows of the Honda Accord, and an iPod found in the car. Remember iPods? The spare tire rim and the mirror on the sun visor of the Accord.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The only fingerprint that they were able to identify was Robin's fingerprint on the mirror of the sun visor.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Another person that works with the lab performed DNA analysis on several items recovered from the crime scene because this is 2009. So we got a lot of DNA shit going on. The victim's body was too decomposed to yield a blood sample. Two days it took for that to happen. Three days.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That is wild. He bled out and then dried up. Yeah. She said that this medical examiner explained that the only way to obtain a known DNA profile from someone is to obtain a sample directly from the person's fluid or cellular material. She concluded that DNA found in the victim's belt, fingernails, a bottle cap found at the scene, and his driver's license belonged to an unidentified male.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
We're going to assume that's Brian, basically. Okay. So they said it was most likely the victim. She reached this opinion by examining a bunch of shit and figuring it out, basically. So they compared DNA found on the belt buckle and beer bottle and all that stuff here. They discovered no female DNA on any of the items recovered from the scene. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Now, the gun, his stepson, I guess, Justin, Robin's son, said that he always kept a Springfield XD 9mm handgun either on his person or in his car, always with him. Yeah, common, you know, easy, lots of, 15 in the chamber on that one, right? Or 15 in the clip on that one, that's a...
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Totally. Yeah, I have a BB version of that exact gun. Yeah, yeah. That shit for my targets here. So they looked at tool mark identifications and ballistics and examined the projectiles of the body here.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Well, there's a lot of petrochemical places, but there's also a lot of outdoor activities and lake life and shit like that. So it's a real weird, different mix. Median home cost here, $179,400.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Hydro, yeah. So on cross-examination, yeah, later, yeah, he'll acknowledge that there are at least 11 manufacturers that could have made the gun that fired the bullets, one of which was Springfield. Now, Robin's mom said that she deposited $4,000 into Robin's account around the time of the disappearance.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Very affordable. So the nickname here, they have a nickname. Well, actually, two nicknames. One is this is not a great nickname. The Lake Area. Yeah. Oh, well, then that's that's very unique to this particular location. There's no other lakes in the country.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She said Robin told her mom that she was instructed by police not to use the account since Brian was missing. So because they want to track in case he used it at all. So Robin's mom said she did not know that he was dead when Robin asked her for the money. When asked if she ever told the police that Robin told her the account was frozen because of the death investigation.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Which is not – It's not missing. The deposit was made before they found the body. So that's odd. You know what I mean? Now there's Stephanie Wells. She's the other one who was living at the house at the time.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Wow, she's a good friend and lives with them. She said she had eye surgery the day he disappeared. She said that she remembered seeing Sissy's car parked in the grass when they left for surgery. She said she returned home from surgery about 10.30 a.m. She did not recall seeing Sissy's car at the residence at that point.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She said that Robin was home when this woman returned home and Brian arrived a few minutes later. Brian asked this woman if she would watch his daughter Bailey while they went boat shopping. Hey, person who just had surgery, will you babysit for me so I can go boat shopping with money I don't have?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I can't even watch TV. She said she never saw Brian again, but Robin returned home around 5 p.m. Wells said she called Brian between 3 and 3.30, but the phone call went to voicemail. At 3.42, she sent him a text message stating that Bailey was not feeling well. They said that the cell phone records indicate that she tried to call him at 3.42. The call went straight to voicemail.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The voicemail was followed by a text message stating that Bailey was ill. She didn't get a call back from him, but she did get a call back from Robin. According to this, Robin called Ms. Wells at 3.50 p.m., and this woman assumed that Brian and Robin were still together. And she says she thinks Robin told her she was going to run errands at that point. So there's a lot of this.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She also acknowledged that Robin made this call to her around 3.50 p.m. And she said that Robin and Sissy arrived home from running errands at 5 or 5.30 p.m. And then she also said that when she found out about the death, that Robin was very distraught and crying. So there's that. Now, she did not believe that his Honda was there when she left.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
But when she returned, she believed that Sissy's Jetta was gone and the Honda was there. So it's very confusing. July 13th, they talked to Robin again. Let's figure this out, okay? She repeated much of the same shit here.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And then there's Louisiana's Playground, which Bourbon Street may disagree with you.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She explained that the Honda was not at the house in the morning of the murder because Sissy had drove it home the night before when her car would not start because she left her lights on. Sissy lives there most of the time, but here's what I don't get. I thought the wheel was fucked up, and that's why he didn't take it.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
No, no, no. Sissy's car had a bad battery, so Sissy was using the Honda.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Earlier, she said he didn't take the Honda because the wheel was fucked up. Now she's saying he didn't take the Honda because Sissy had it. So that's what's different. Yeah, she said that Sissy told her the Jetta, her car, was good and that she could come pick it up. According to Robin, Sissy picked up the Jetta and left the Accord at their house while Robin and Brian were boat shopping.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She said that we split ways, me and my husband split ways, between 2.30 and 3 in the afternoon. Robin talked to Brian about 3 o'clock while driving to Sissy's house because apparently she had just moved out. Um, so Robin had to wait for sissy to get ready.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The two then went to the cleaners, Albert Albertson's grocery store and back to the residence when told by the detectives that her cell phone was being used in the area of the murder. She said she wasn't there. She said she'd never been in the area where the murder occurred until after the body had been found. She had no explanation for her cell phone being used in that area during the murder.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Let's talk to Sissy. Let's see what Sissy's got to say here.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Because she's the mystery here. So she said she was at the Davis home all afternoon the day before the murder, which was a Sunday. She said when Sissy started to leave around midnight, her car wouldn't start. So Robin told her to take the Honda since he would be driving the Trailblazer to work the next morning. The next morning, Davis called Sissy to tell her that Brian would be needing the Honda.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Wherever people just take their boobs out indiscriminately, that's the playground. That's Louisiana's Playground. It's not at the lake, my friends. If your eight-year-old can see nipples, that's a much better place. That is a playground. A little bit of history of this town here. It had several different names originally. First, it was Porte du Lafitte, which was Porte of Jean Lafitte.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Sissy put $5 to $10 worth of gas in the car and drove it to the residence. She's like, that's about how much I used. It's not 1994.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's nothing. So according to the detective, a video from ShopRite showed Sissy at the store shortly after 11 p.m. According to Sissy, she drove the Accord to Davis' residence and then Robin drove Sissy back home. So, Sissy claims she stayed home until Robin picked her up to run errands later that afternoon. Remember, after they had split ways during boat shopping.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Sissy was not ready when Robin arrived, so they did not leave to run errands until an hour later. Took you an hour to get ready to fucking run errands? Brush your teeth and get out there. What are you doing?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's all. So, when they left the house, they went straight to the dry cleaners and to Albertsons. At first, Sissy stated that Robin drove while running errands, but later remembered that she drove. They completed the errands and arrived at the residence around 5 or 5.30.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
When the victim here, Brian, was still missing on Tuesday, Sissy drove around looking for him because he had previously taken them fishing at that one point, the Calquesu Point. I'm sure I'm saying that wrong. Thank you, Louisiana people. Sissy drove to that point to look for him.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
When asked what she thought about the fact that this point was so close to the murder scene, she replied she never thought about that. No, no, no. They said, well, it was found less than a mile away. What the fuck? Anyway, she also told them that she had no knowledge of the death at all. Then at one point they explained the difference to Sissy between first and second degree murder.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And she asked if he thought she killed. Do you think I did it? And he said he thought she had some direct or indirect knowledge of the murder. And she stated that she did not know what happened and said, I'm leaving now and fucking took off. Yeah, I'm done with this interview. So that was done. Now there's a video from Walgreens.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Based on the fact that Robin stated she went to the drugstore on the morning of the disappearance, the detective obtained a video from Walgreens. The video is introduced to evidence. The video shows that at 8.52 on the morning of June 29th, both Sissy and Robin are together entering the store, which they absolutely said they were not together. Remember that?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
According to the detective, Sissy never mentioned going to the drugstore with her because they weren't supposed to be together yet until afterwards. They also noticed in their separate interrogations between Robin and Sissy that they were caught in lies, numerous lies about their whereabouts that day. However, neither woman tried to throw the other one under the bus.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Neither one tried to be like, well, maybe she did this or maybe she did that. The one investigator said they were joined at the hip the whole time. So after creating this detailed map of all the movements on the day of the murder, including times of events and vehicles that were being driven, they theorized that Sissy staged the flat tire because she had the accord.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She staged the flat tire, and Brian was called to go to the scene to help is what they think.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
As he knelt to fix the flat, they think he was shot in the back, tried to run for his life, but was shot three more times and died. Oh, my God. the detectives theorize that each woman fired the weapon, which makes no sense. I'll shoot it twice and hand it to you and you shoot it a couple times. What are we doing? Some kind of, what are we 12 doing a gang initiation? No.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So the phone pings are a big thing. There's a lot of shit with the phone pings, and I'm trying to get to the ones that matter the most. One is a Robin Davis call at 3.50 p.m. During this call, Davis's phone originated at Sprint Tower 4045 and ended up two minutes and 23 seconds later on Sprint Tower 3045.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Jean Lafitte, you'll hear about it. Kind of a big deal. Yeah, he was a big deal down there. There's a whole pirate festival with him in it that we'll talk about here. It was first incorporated in 1857 as Charleston after an early settler, Charles Sallier. Sallier is probably French. March 16th, 1867, it was reincorporated as the city of Lake Charles. So they figured it out in the 1860s.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
According to the agents here, neither Tower 4045 nor Tower 3045 can be utilized at the murder scene. However, the towers can be used a half a mile up the road from the murder scene. That's where they start pinging.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They're talking about how this is a more rural area out here, so there are less cell towers. So a cell tower pinging might have an eight square mile radius of where it could be, whereas if you're in the city, you can get block to block type of shit.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So they said that using mapping software and a drive test to find the most direct route from Jerry's Marine to the areas covered by these towers, the towers used by this by Robin during a 350 call. The mapping program and drive testing showed a distance of 21 miles and approximate travel time of 28 minutes.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They opined that it was possible for Robin and the victim to arrive at the murder scene by 336 p.m. Robin's phone calls then are after 350 p.m. would show that she moved a little to the east and then to the southeast and then back into the vicinity of a residence. So they're saying she could have killed him and been on that cell tower by 350.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
At 439, she made a phone call that used Sprint Tower 2280. Both AAA cleaners and Albertsons are in the coverage area for that tower. Then at 936, she's pinged at a tower that serves her residents. So, yeah, that's interesting. Very, very interesting. They said that. The victim's phone, the phone used cell tower 3045, the same tower used by Robin's phone in her 350 call.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
His phone made a call at 344 p.m. lasting two seconds from there.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Two seconds. So that's very, very fucking interesting. They also said that his that Robin's cell phone used cell tower 3045 at 731 the day before the murder and 350 the day of the murder. So I think they might have been looking scoping out the spot to do it.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So the theory is, obviously, they review everything and they they opine that because the accord was not muddy, the vehicle also had to have arrived at the scene before it rained on the day of the murder. The meteorology reports from Lake Charles Airport indicate that the rain began around 345 p.m. on the day of the murder and lasted until 7 p.m. So that's out of her. She's fucking that all up.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They also noted there was a live round located near the victim's vehicle. They said that they may indicate the person firing the weapon is not particularly familiar with this firearm. Maybe they had one in the chamber and they cocked it and shot it out anyway. Yeah, that's what they're thinking.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They said that the shooter may have been standing and the victim bending over when he was shot in the back. They also think that they don't know if he was shot with his own gun. They're looking at the information concerning the brand of the live round found at the scene and all of that. And they said the evidence at the scene supports the probability that he may have been shot with his own gun.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Given there's a particular type of ammunition called Hydra shocks and, you know, shootings that I've investigated, you rarely ever see Hydra shocks with the exception of law enforcement personnel and shooting enthusiasts. And he was one of those.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So he said that the fact that the bullets recovered from the body were Hydra shocks and the cartridge casings found at the scene were federal just lends more support that he may have been shot with his own gun. So but he said he did not wasn't able to to ever get his firearm to make a determined definitive determination. November 2009, Robin and Sissy are both indicted for murder.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah, they got them both. But they said it's a tough one. There's no murder weapon, no DNA, no witnesses, no cell towers. And it's and it's shaky on those.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's it. Yeah. So 2011 is jury is picked. But when they're supposed to be sworn in, the prosecutor has a health problem and it's delayed. So there's a delay. The original jurors later on are recalled, but they're eventually dismissed and a new jury is chosen because of an illness by the prosecutor. That's going to come up later. So in 2012, the trial comes up here.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Prosecutor displays the fully inflated tire that Brian drove out to change a fine tire. So they said the tire was a lie. He wasn't changing a tire. The prosecutor said working in concert with the women looking at working in concert, the women lured Davis to the secluded area to kill him for, you know, who knows why.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Then in 1910, quote, the Great Fire devastated the whole city. This place is on fire, too.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Now, Sissy argues that the state's case against her is especially weak and circumstantial, devoid of any evidence that she was present during the commission of the murder, and she doesn't even get any fucking insurance money.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She says that the evidence, when viewed in a light most favorable to the state, merely shows that her cell phone may have been within a geographical area constituting numerous square miles at times she says she was not.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And she says that not surprising that her stories would be wrong, given that few people can recall hour by hour what they did weeks before and under extreme, extreme grief and stress. So the crime scene guy says he believed the whole incident was staged because of all the documentation and that I examined and showed that the attire was fairly recently purchased and there's no defects in it.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
He said, as far as I know, it held its charge of air once it was charged. So someone just let the air out of it. no defects on it. And they said also he had a compressor in the trunk of his car. And I don't know whether or not his compressor was functioning or not, but if his tire was flat, instead of changing the tire, perhaps he could have tried the compressor first.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
As damp as it is down there, everything is covered in dampness and dew. It doesn't matter. They rebuilt it and expanded it, the town as well. The Charleston Hotel was built in 1929. And during and after World War II, industrial growth was a big deal here with the arrival of the petrochemical refineries, which is where all the jobs are here for the most part here.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Um, so meant the medical death examiner comes up and, you know, says the same thing about the car and about, you know, the, the mud and everything like that. And, uh, They talk about that he was found in a secluded area and that his belt was unbuckled and his shoes and a sock were off. And they said that, yes, because the defense says, couldn't he have been getting undressed when he was killed?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And they said that, you know, yeah, I guess, but anything's possible. So the defense brings in their own communications expert as well to try to thwart the investigation. Ping theories here. Prosecution in closing says, quote, he had an affair. She caught him in the affair. She confronted him about the affair. Number two, she had no money and yet she was out gambling video poker.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
We showed her bank records, overdrafts, overdraws, all the insurance proceeds. He had over $700,000 in insurance proceeds and her and her friend were joined at the hip. She said so. Sissy drove the Condor Accord to Wagon Wheel Road, feigned a flat tire rather than going home and switching cars.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
As Robin claimed, they said that she and Sissy drove or that she and Brian drove the Trailblazer straight from Jerry's Marine to Wagon Wheel Road. And they said either way, whoever did the shooting, it doesn't matter. They were both in on it and they're both there. So the defense says the state has to put on sufficient evidence and they didn't do it in this case.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So they're innocent because of that. Didn't prove the case. Sissy's attorney said it's hard to find any evidence that Sissy Saltzman or Robin Davidson anything more than have inconsistent statements to the police, which is not enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone committed a crime.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And then they also said maybe Brian Davis was going to engage in some monetary transaction that was illegal on the day of his demise. Maybe that's why he was boat shopping. Was he killed in a drug deal gone bad? Was he engaged in sexual conduct when he was caught by a jealous husband or boyfriend and killed?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Did he drive his car to Wagon Wheel Road, leave it parked there, and leave in another vehicle belonging to someone else? Why would he do that?
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That makes no sense. Then they also, when they go to the jury, it's going to be the second-degree murder or manslaughter and all that. The defense gets the lesser charges taken off. So it's only murder? Their only choice is murder because they figure they won't convict them of that, but they might do a compromise and convict them of manslaughter.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's real ballsy. It's an all-or-nothing thing here. So the verdict comes in. By the way, this is an 11-to-1 verdict. Oh. Louisiana did not have to have unanimous verdicts until 2019. So, wow.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah, let's disparage it. Come on, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Think about how many people Harry Connick Sr. sentenced to death on juries that weren't even unanimous. That's remarkable.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So, following an 11-1 verdict, they are both found guilty of second-degree murder. Really? Yeah, that's a tough one, man. I mean, I think they did it, but I don't know if there's enough to convict them in a court. That's fascinating. So during sentencing, during the victim impact, Brian's mother said that he loans his car to Sissy.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
He allows her to use it because her car is supposedly broken down, all this type of shit. And he says that it's – It's complete bullshit, she says, and we all know it was no more flat than it was full, and it stayed inflated the entire time. They left the tire full of air sitting in the court the whole time. So you could watch it day after day, not losing any air.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
That's a good one there. They both maintained their innocence during sentencing.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Robin said she'd continue to fight for her freedom, and Sissy claimed she would know no peace until the real killer was found. Wow. The judge will not rest. I will not rest. That's what OJ said. The judge told them it was a senseless act of selfishness for their own gain and there was sufficient evidence to support the guilty verdict. You, ma'ams, may fuck off life without parole for both of them.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And then Houston has a lot of that, too. This is like the petrochemical belt.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Wow. And now they can't have the insurance money either, which goes to his mother now, Brian's mother. 2014, the Louisiana Supreme Court voted six to one not to hear their appeals. They said the central issue of double jeopardy could be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, but he didn't say whether they'd appeal. 2014, the U.S. Supreme Court says, no, thanks. We don't want to hear it.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
In 2018, voters in Louisiana finally vote to abolish non-unanimous juries. Then two years later, the Supreme Court declares them unconstitutional anyway, which also brings that to end in Oregon, where they also did that.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
This stays on. It's not retroactive. Yeah, that would be a nightmare. That would let millions of people out of jail. So then 2019, they're reappealing again, and it's not going well for them. They're denied a new trial. So they said, basically, you're arguing sufficiency of evidence, which is up to the jury. And they made their decision. There was an Indiegogo campaign called Bring Brian Home.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
In 2005, the city was damaged badly by Hurricane Rita. In 2020, it was battered by two hurricanes, Category 4 Hurricane Laura and Hurricane Delta also that year.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
She buried Brian in Lake Charles, which is hours away from his family in Independence. So they said in this, adding insult to injury, Robin had Brian buried on the 4th of July with numerous overtures and innuendos. She also had Brian buried in a mausoleum, far out of sight, far out of reach, tucked away as if he were a pair of old socks.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
His family and loved ones lived three hours away and most have no idea how to even find his burial site. His children seldom are able to visit his burial site due to the great distance. His mother with health conditions seldom gets to visit. Blah, blah, blah. They want to bring him to independence and bury him.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's in a drawer. So, yeah, they want to pull them out, take them over there.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The campaign was for $8,500, and they raised 3% of it. They raised $330 of this, which is sad. When was that? That was 2009. It's been over for years. And it still says on Find a Grave, his burial is in Lake Charles, so they never moved him, it sounds like.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
There is a Facebook page also, Free Carol Sissy Saltzman and Robin Davis, which has 785 likes and 824 followers. That's way too many. That's a lot. So there you go, everybody. There's Lake Charles, Louisiana, very quickly through the end. Head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Check that out. Also, give us a review on whatever site or whatever app you're listening on.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com, tickets to live shows, Chicago in May, virtual live show, April 19th, available for two weeks after that. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports, all the bonus material you could possibly want. $5 and above. This week we talk about more sports songs for Crime and Sports and we talk about a crazy con man named Louis Carlucci, the nickname Con Juan back in the 80s.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Really funny stuff. That is patreon.com slash crime and sports and a shout out at the end of the regular show. That said, thank you so much everybody and until next week, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Lake Charles, after the hurricanes that happened, two of them that hit it, was described as, quote, as if 20 tornadoes came in and wiped the city. Just destroyed shit. The southern portion of the city was then also damaged in 2021 by an EF2 tornado as well. So this place is, you are dodging weather like crazy in this place. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It just keeps happening.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Keeps happening. Well, I guess those are ones that I remember Hurricane Rita. That was a big one. Yeah, that was a big one. But I don't remember Laura and Delta, even though they just happened. But that was 2020. There was a lot of shit going on in 2020.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us because we have a wild story today. This is really 10 pounds of murder in a two-pound bag. This probably may, could have been a regular episode almost, but we are going to put it all together and concentrate. We're going to do murder concentrated today.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
We were watching Tiger King and stuff. It was a lot going on. We had shit to do.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Not at all. Reviews of this town. We'll just do a couple here because we're running late on time. Here's five stars. Lake Charles is the sportsman's paradise. There's great food and great people. There's something here for everyone. Every sentence has an exclamation point after it, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The only thing I would change is I would like for Lake Charles to have something like a Dave and Buster's or for a skating rink to be brought back to town. Just missing a Dave and Buster's in this place would be perfect.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Anything. Here's a one star, and I'm reading this because a 10-year-old wrote it, and I think that's hilarious. As a 10-year-old living in Lake Charles, I can happily say this city sucks. This kid's got potential, right? First, the crime rate here is so horrible, I don't even know why one would let their family grow up here. And don't get me started on the entertainment.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
All you have to do here is go to a crappy casino and hope you win some money. And then all caps with a period after each word, I HATE THIS CITY. And I'm going to read the first couple of lines of one just because it's hilarious. One star, A CITY OF SCUMBAGS, LOW LIVES, AND THIEVES. What the fuck? This city really sucks. I don't like Lake Charlesians. They're all scumbags.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's so funny. And then they go on to describe it from there of why they're scumbags. But it's really fucking funny. They even say the kids in the schools are some of the meanest in the country. I've been to all of them.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I've been bullied by the best, and these kids, I'll tell you what. Things to do here. The Louisiana Pirate Festival. That's right. They talk about Jean Lafitte and his band of buccaneers who are fleeing enemy ships and heading west to Galveston and all this type of shit. So now they have a pirate- Do you have a nickname? A pirate-themed festival. I don't. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They just call him Jean Lafitte. No clue. So they're just going to have a festival over this. And it's pirate-themed entertainment. Begins and ends the festivities and promotes the festival year-round. They've been doing it for 66 years now. And you can find out your pirate name very easily here. There we go. The first letter of your last name.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So that would be for you a W. So that would be Brickley. Prickley.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah, so you'd be prickly, and I would be, this is the first letter of your last name, so I would be squinty.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
And then your birth month, so you'd be February, so you'd be the cruel prickly.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
I have no idea. Oh, I guess prickly the cruel.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Or I would be squinty the landlubber. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
The dumbest thing ever.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They ruined it. So that's how that goes anyway. Yeah. Let's talk about some murder. What do you say here? All right. Let's talk about a man first. This is William Davis goes by Brian. I don't ask. Why not? Brian Davis. He's born July 9th, 1969. He's born in New Orleans and raised just outside of New Orleans in a small town called Independence, Louisiana.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It's a nice little small town outside New Orleans. He's got parents named Bill and Catherine. It looks like he has a brother and a sister from what I could gather here. He graduated from Independence High School. And he has three kids. At some point, there's a divorce because he has child support payments and all this going on, too. Three kids, from what I can gather, Douglas, Danielle and Darla.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Let's do it, babe. Let's do it. All right. So for me, before we get to that, definitely shut up and give me murder dot com tickets for live shows. First up is the virtual live show. It is April 19th. That's the 420 virtual live show, just like a regular live show, except you can be anywhere on the planet that has Internet. We don't care.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
They went with all D's on that one. He's big into fishing and outdoor shit, as you would be in the Lake Charles area. Also enjoyed, he's big into shooting. He likes, like, target shooting a lot.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Oh, dude, this guy, yeah, you know it.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
He has several of those jackets with lots of pockets in them. A lot of those. So he does competition shooting, also plays golf and sings karaoke. What a guy. Well, we'll also talk about he also loves video poker, as we'll get into. Oh, boy, does he love video poker? Maybe more than anything. So from 2000, the year 2000 on, he worked as a sales manager for Union National Life Insurance Company.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So he's going to be for the remainder here. That's where he works. Now, he's got a wife here that he gets married in 2008, but they're together for years before that. And her name is Robin Little. Robin with a Y, by the way. Robin Little. And she'll be Robin Little Davis after that. Robin Little Davis.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
It just sounds funny. Whatever it is, you're just making it small now. Yeah. Doesn't matter. You could be Little Godzilla and it would sound funny. That sounds awesome. Little Godzilla. I want to watch Little Godzilla. That's the movie I want to watch.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
He's like four foot six and he just fuck shit up though.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Absolutely. Fucks up like Barbie doll houses and shit. Just crushes them. He can still shoot fire though. So, uh, he, anyway, he met the, uh, Robin little at work and, they end up getting married. Like I said, in 2008, this is a third marriage for Brian and the second for Robin. And, uh, Brian has a history. All of his marriages end because he cheats on his wife. That's how this works.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Brian makes a couple mistakes here and there. From what everybody said, outside of the infidelity, he's a very good guy and a nice guy that everybody likes. But boy, he can't keep his dick in his pants. And he's a – I'll show you the guy. He's not an attractive – conventionally attractive man. He's a heavy set guy, bald, got like a Michael Strahan gap in his teeth, shit like that.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Yeah, like he's – you wouldn't look at him and go, oh, baby, fucking – I am sitting in a puddle there. That's you don't hear that very often. So he must be a really nice guy is all I have to say. Funny or something to be.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So with Robin Little comes Carol Nolan Saltzman, who goes by Sissy.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
You can if you can get the Wi-Fi, you can sit in the middle of the Serengeti watching lions do things and watch the show if you want. Just like a regular live show, except you are wherever the hell you want to be. We're going to have costumes. I have crazy bongs and shit to make Jimmy smoke out of. And it's available for two weeks after the April 19th air date as well.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Sissy Saltzman. No, no, no. That is her best friend who's always with her. She lives with the couple. She lives with them. I'm going to show you the house. And there is a shitload of people living in this fucking house. And I don't know where they're all fitting because it's not a house. It's a trailer. And I don't know where they're all fitting. We'll put it that way.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
So Sissy Saltzman, born in 1967, Robin's best friend, lives with them for pretty much from the year before they get married and onward. Just lives with them. Wow. Now, Justin here, this is Robin's son, Justin. And he's an adult. He must be an adult because he works with everybody at the insurance place. Really? He works there too. So, yeah.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Now, they have this son and she also has a daughter named Kelsey who seems to be older as well. And she also seems to live there kind of too. Yeah. I don't know what's going on now. Apparently, Robin had gotten a gotten separated from her ex-husband at this point in 2000, but stayed legally married to him, according to the son, so that she could keep him on her medical insurance.
Small Town Murder
#578 - Video Poker Playboy Murder - Lake Charles, Louisiana
Well, apparently he couldn't work because he had a bad back and it would have been hard for him to get medical insurance. So she kept him on her medical insurance, which is pretty insane behavior for an ex. That's crazy. The thing is, this guy died in 2008. Oh, Andrew died. That's Andrew's. Her ex-husband died in a car accident in 2008. So Kelsey said that they were asked.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, like you two are awesome. This is her mom says this, or a friend of hers, I'm sorry, said this. She had a nickname for everybody, and they weren't mean nicknames. They were nice and they were funny. And she said she, yeah, she just was that kind of person. Gave everybody, makes them feel special by addressing them with something about them that shows you're paying attention basically here.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Right. Her mother describes her as an ordinary, all-American girl. And then she says, this is a wild quote, her mother has a bunch of, like, she's meaning them as compliments. And she loves her daughter more than anything. But they come across in black and white as, like, kind of backhanded a little bit. She says, quote, she wasn't the smartest, the prettiest, the fastest, or the slowest.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
What the fuck, man? What the hell does that mean? I know that she's just trying to say she's just a regular kid and all that, but the way it's said and when you read that on paper, you're like, Jesus. She wasn't the smartest or the prettiest or the fastest, but good kid.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
You can watch it anywhere in the world with internet that you want. just like a regular live show, the murder story, the pictures, everything like that, except you're in your living room or wherever you want to be, and we are where we are, and we're going to have costumes, and we're going to have a crazy story.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's what I mean. You had to throw that in there to the prettiest, really? She then said she wasn't superhuman, but she's a super person. So it's like saying, almost like I don't want her to think she's special or anything, but she's a good person. But don't think you're doing anything special there. That is a wild fucking man. That's a rough, rough run there.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So she got a bunch of recipient of several small scholarships after high school and a grant. She is pursuing wants to pursue a degree in fashion merchandising.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So she chooses to go to Northwest College in Powell, Northwest, not Northwestern, Northwest College in Powell, which is a two year college. It's a junior college, essentially.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah. Yeah. Like not. I don't think it's like a community college because they have dorms and shit there. So it's a stay-in college, but it's also like a two-year deal. Get the fuck out of here. I guess junior college would be the only way I could put it.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, they probably have specialized programs. So, yeah, when she went to college, she said that her brother Ryan said that he remembered –
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
taken her up to college and she had so much shit packed there was two cars stuffed full of her shit they were bickering about it and everything like that which is kind of funny she gets into college here this is early September 96 she shows up at Northwestern in Powell And she's right away. She's involved in the jazz and the concert band program. She joined the home ec and ski clubs.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
I mean, she was like, what can I do? So she's she's out of her shell. There is no shell to come out of her shell. She left it long behind, you know, before the first belching contest. Her shell was way gone.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yep, gone. So October 4th, 1996. She's been in college a month, and she already has a million friends, and everybody knows her. She's just that kind of person. So that night, she's going out with a friend of hers named Jessie, a young lady, i.e. So they're going out to a dance, which turns out to be kind of a boring little... Okay.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Kind of breaks up early, not really much going on, nothing popping at the dance. So then they hear about a party at the dorms. So they're like, all right, let's go to the dorm party. So they do. So Barry and Jesse go to this dorm party. And there's a bunch of other students there. It's a lot of people. It's a party.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
I'm going to force Jimmy to smoke out of different things that will scare the hell out of him. It's going to be a lot of fun. Can't wait for that. So get your tickets for that. And while you're there, if you're in the Chicago area,
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So there's an acquaintance of theirs, both Jesse and Barry there, named Levi Collin, C-O-L-L-E-N. He's at the party, too. Now, he has, for the last couple months, kind of been sweet on Barry. I mean that on purpose, pun intended. He's been...
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
sweet on her a little bit he's been you know just kind of a little bit of interest toward her hasn't overtly asked her out or anything like that and she hasn't overtly rejected him he kind of pursues she juice yeah she kind of demures a little bit and doesn't really respond to it so that's what's been going on little cat and mouse for the last month or so
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So, uh, anyway, they go to this small party in a dorm and she's having a couple of drinks and, uh, she was having, this is a fun part too. This is such a college kid thing to do. She was trying a bunch of different mixed drinks, like a sip of each of them to see which ones tasted the least like booze. She was trying to find her drink. That's hilarious.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
she's looking for what's 96 there was plenty of Zima she's looking she's looking for mixed drinks here what's my mixed drink of choice that I'll drink for the next 20 years because it disguises the taste of alcohol which is such an 18 year old thing to do first month of college these are the things you need to work out you know what I'm saying need to work out a system in case you're fucking in the room with your roommate you need to work out what your drink is I like to be fucked up what's the one that doesn't taste like I'm getting fucked up
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yep. So now this Levi guy here, Levi Todd Collin, he's about six, eight months older than her, but he's born in 77, but still, you know, same. He just got to college, too. Now, that summer, Colleen had attended a 4-H junior leader conference. Wow, she's ambitious. Yeah. Collin did. I'm sorry. Colleen. I just said I meant Collin. Collin attended this. He was there, and she was also there, too.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
get your tickets for chicago in may st louis is sold out unfortunately well fortunately for us but unfortunately if you want to go to it but chicago still some tickets left at the riviera get those right now shut up and give me murder.com also the rest of the year if you want to go to a show get the tickets because they're selling out there's half the shows for the rest of the year sold out so definitely get in there and do that thank you everybody who's bought tickets already
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Barry was there. Yeah. So they both also attended the Wyoming State Fair in Douglas as well. So they've been running into each other at places before school, and now they're in school together. Now, Colin here comes from the Ten Sleep area. That's a town. Ten Sleep? Ten Sleep. Ten Sleep, like ten nights, I guess, or whatever. This, by the way, is such a small town.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Wait till I tell you about how many people are in his graduating class and shit. It's bonkers. So- Anyway, he was the captain of both the football and basketball team.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And homecoming king. Okay. So this is a kid who can do whatever he wants in this town. You know what I'm saying? He's the king of this town, essentially, here.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
No, no, no, no. There's a school there. It's just me and my two little brothers. One's six years younger. One's eight years younger. And my little sister, she's five. And I'm the captain of the football team.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And a homecoming king. My little brother was picking his nose during the ceremony. I knew I had it right there.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's going to lose you a couple of votes. So I found a bunch of newspaper clippings about him in the paper. A last-second shot by 10 sleeps. Levi Collins sent the game into overtime for basketball. He led the team with this many points here. Here's one where he had 10 unassisted tackles and 11 assisted tackles.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He's played middle linebacker. He's not a huge guy either, so that tells you the football team as well. Yeah, he had a, do you know how many kids were in the graduating class?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Every boy in the school is on the football team and a few girls, too. That's, you know, that's whatever you would need them just to fill by. Even if you don't play like, listen, kid, I know you don't want to play football, but we can't have a team unless you just put a uniform on and stand on the sidelines. We have to have enough people.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's all we got. You can't even practice. We got to do like four-on-four practice drills. So there's an article that says Colin took on many leadership responsibilities within the sixth student graduating class. Yeah. He rose to the top of that big pack there. If I can make it there, I can make it anywhere. Isn't that what Sinatra was singing about?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Oh, Christ. In some cases, they said he took other students under his wing, one of his classmates said, and encouraged them to participate and do their best in school activities. Everybody's got to know each other so well. There's six people in the entire graduating class.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
I'd like to play. So you have to play. So he got in a little bit trouble in high school. He was cited twice for illegally possessing alcohol as a minor kid shit, drinking beer or whatever. No other contact with him at school. He's very well regarded. One kid said more than once I was able to call his parents.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And oh, this isn't a kid as a teacher and say that he had made excellent choices about how to handle himself. It's such a small school that if you do something nice, they call your parents to tell you about it, to tell them what a good kid you are. Imagine that.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
You also certainly want to get your hands on Patreon. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports. That's where all the bonus material is there. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get hundreds of episodes that you've never heard before. Back episodes of bonus stuff immediately upon subscription. Good binging stock there. And then you get new ones every other week, including this week.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
One just to, no, no, not calling, just, you know, not in trouble, just wanted to say, what a good guy.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Wow. Okay, yeah, my dad would have been shocked. He would have been mad because I told all he ever told me was just make it so nobody calls me. That's all he ever said to me in school. Don't get in trouble. Don't get such bad grades. They call just fucking show up and keep me out of it, basically. So, yeah, he would have been probably annoyed with that. Why are you telling me this?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So he's not in trouble? Why are you telling me this? Great. Click. Can't you send a letter? Jesus Christ. Yeah, send a fucking plaque or something. I don't know.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He's a fuck up. Give him a fucking nice guy badge or something, a congeniality badge. I don't know. So Levi's into him here or into Barry. I'm sorry. So during freshman orientation, when they were both there, Levi saw her in a dorm lounge and told the kid behind her behind our next to him, quote, I'm going to get her. OK, I'm going to get that one right there. And so that's that's a thing.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So he's been had his eyes on her here.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Now, just about a week before, a week to two weeks before this night, so, you know, mid to late September, Jesse, who's Barry's friend, recalled an excursion that they took into the countryside. It's her and Barry and Levi, the three of them in a car, okay? Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Now, she thought she was just being paranoid here, but she said something was weird and she just kind of like he was he seemed very amiable and real nice guy on the surface. But there's something below the surface that makes her uncomfortable. Jesse. Yeah. Apparently they were cruising around. Barry's driving.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Barry behind the wheel and Levi had just made, he just out of nowhere, they weren't talking about sex or anything like that. He just turned and said, I bet you're still a virgin to Barry.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
You get one Crime in Sports, one Small Town Murder, and you get it all, everybody. Anybody $5 or above. So... For crime and sports this week, we're going to talk about the 2000 Spanish Paralympic team where none of them were actually disabled or very few of them were. And shocker, they won gold. So it's interesting. And there's some other scams we'll talk about in there.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
um that on that like that he would bring this up because it was not a they're not that close they just met each other and okay i don't know so she just took it as a little bit i don't know jesse i wasn't asking you calm down hey jesse he's looking in the rear view i'm saying right jesse i was i asked there's a reason you're in the back seat sweetheart shut the fuck up no interest honey no so um she thought that was a little bit weird and i think in this part of the country too it's
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
It's a little bit different than where we grew up in different environments than that. So these are nice people. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So I was jerking off last night, right? I really, I mean... I had a good fucking stroke going, too. I'm telling you right now, this wasn't any like I wasn't thinking about it. I was fucking running toward the goal line right now. So anyway, Jesse was offended. But Barry, she said, didn't let it bother her at all.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Didn't have didn't give it a pause and just told him that she sure was and was proud of it, too.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
oh so yeah she's not none of your business good for her she said yep that's right i'm proud of it motherfucker so you know um jesse said it just made her skin crawl she said yeah she said that just his smirk on his face wasn't just something and it's vibes listen ladies vibes you if you get a vibe like that from a guy don't be around him trust it even if it's wrong who fucking cares if he makes you creeped out that's not going to be your soulmate anyway so who gives a shit
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Clearly, you don't like that guy. Yeah, don't give him a chance. You don't need to. And vice versa. Guys, if you sense the crazy vibe, fucking run.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
You see a little Casey Anthony twinge in her eye, you go, I got to get away from this lady. Go. So Jesse said that she grew increasingly uneasy the further they got away from town. She just felt that Levi was up to no good. So she asked Barry if she could if she would take her back to campus, which Barry did turn around, dropped her off the campus. And that's that.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So, yeah, she just said she just felt uneasy with the guy. Which it's a vibe. People get a vibe. So back to the party, back to the dorm party. Now, Barry excuses herself to go to the bathroom, which is down the hall. It's one of those shared bathroom situations, which is a good reason to not go to college. So I. That would have kept me away from college. And even if I had the grades, the desire.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
I'd have been like, I'm not sharing the bathroom with other people. I'm not dealing with your shit and your shit and your shit. Nope.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
All of them. nope don't think so i don't trust anybody to keep this tidy yeah so then uh levi after barry leaves uh turned to jesse because jesse's there here and uh said hey i think i got a chance with her oh i really still looking to hook up with her and jesse says no you don't you have no fucking chance with her i'll tell you right now
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He said she just broke up with a long-term boyfriend before she came to college. And, you know, she said she's not going to be dating anybody for a while. She wants to get into school and deal with school and friends and activities. Very healthy is what she's doing.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And then for Small Town Murder, we are going to talk about the craziest documentary, one of the craziest stories I've ever heard, American Nightmare. It's a documentary on Netflix, and I read the entire book on it, too. You think it's a fake kidnapping. The cops accuse these people. You think it's a Papini situation, a Sherry Papini, but then it's not, and then maybe it is.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That guy put in a lot of work. Small-town, long-term boyfriend. How many dinners did he have over the house and sat out on the porch with mom and all this bullshit? Yeah, and he got nothing. So you should keep on walking. So he said, ah, come on. He said, you can hook us up, he says to Jesse. You're a friend. Hook us up. Put in a good word for me. Yeah, talk her into it, basically. She said, no.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
She told me she doesn't want to date anybody. Leave her alone. That's it. So that's all. So she turned away from him, started talking to somebody else. Now, at some point, he slipped out of the room. Levi does. Now, all we know is that that he he left the room and someone ends up seeing Barry and Levi leaving the dorm parking lot in Levi's car together. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
It's the craziest thing you'll ever hear, and the least believable possible thing is the truth. It's crazy. We'll talk about that and more. So that's patreon.com slash crime in sports. That said, I think it's time to do this, everybody. Let's get into this. I think it's time to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Okay.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. ,,,,,,,.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Let's go on a trip, shall we? We are going somewhere we do not go very often. We are going to Wyoming.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And we don't go there very often because there's like a half a million people in the state, so... There's way less murders just in volume, and it's just hard. So the people are pretty spread out, too. So the murder rate's pretty low there. It's just one of those places. You've got to find someone to kill them. They're miles away. It's really difficult.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
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Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
We are going to Powell, Wyoming, which is in northwestern Wyoming up there in the corner by Montana and all that. It's about an hour 35 to Billings, Montana. That's the closest city, I suppose. It's about five hours to Green River, Wyoming, which was our last Wyoming episode. This is episode 584 right now. That was episode 410. So that's the last time we've... Gone to Wyoming. It's been a while.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, that fits her character, right? All of this does. She's going to fuck this guy in the back seat and then just attack him with a beer bottle like Eileen Wuornos or something. Yeah, that's who she is. So he said he was dazed. He's being bashed with an unprovoked attack. So he said he just grabbed his knife and just was like, oh, my God.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He said he had to stab her because she was out of control, just swinging a beer bottle at her, screaming like a banshee, fucking bashing him in the head with a beer bottle in close quarters. I got no choice. I had to stab her. So he said, I thought you'd blame me, obviously, for it. You know, didn't look good.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And all. So I hit her body, you know, because that's what you do when you get self-defense fights. You hide the body. And then, you know, I just made up this story because I knew I was coming home with blood all over me. So I had to had to make something up.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So he said, I went back to my dorm and I made up the story, told my friends there that a random guy assaulted me and I had to do that and I had to kill him. So they said, well, would you be willing to take us to the site where this all happened? And he said, OK, fine. So now one of the interesting things here is that. And she has taken a lot of self-defense classes, by the way.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Okay, so she can defend herself. She's only like 100 pounds, but she's taken a lot of defense classes and knows some tricks of the trade here. So a lot of these marks are because she was not going down easy. That's the thing, not going down at all. So let's find out if he's telling the truth. They go, it's Levi and the detectives in one car and the prosecutor in another car driving out there.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
No, no. This is quite the caravan here. This is a scary caravan. So they went off the back roads in the middle of the night looking for the turnoff that he described. They kept coming up empty time and time. They kept going to where he would say and there's no turnoff, like he said. So after a while, they're like, you're full of shit.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
You're lying about where the fuck you're taking us. That's that's it. Like you're you're not telling us the goddamn truth here. So there's a wild goose chase and there are these people have been up all night and they know that this guy is covered in a teenage girl's blood. So they have no patience for his bullshit at this point.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So they ended up, they call the driver of the car that Colin is in and said, the prosecutor's back there and gets pissed off and says, fucking pull over. Pull these cars over here. I'm talking to this guy now. So the prosecutor comes up to talk to him. This is crazy. Normally, if you kill somebody, six hours later, you won't be getting yelled at by the prosecutor on the side of the road.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
No shit. So she said she called upon every ounce of patience she could gather, basically, to try to get through to him. And she said, look, we're not playing fucking games anymore. Either you're going to help us or you're not. And if you're not, we're going to make it real difficult for you. And so basically he just said, okay, fine.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And then from then he's told them exactly where the body was and they went right to it. They wasted hours driving around.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Fine. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. I'm not taking anymore. Treat him like a child. Basically, you're going to be in trouble, mister. And he's like, OK. So they find her at a place called it's an area known as the bench. It's about 16 miles away from the college. It's an area north of Powell. And there's it's just like flats, the flat sagebrush flats north of Powell, it's called.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That was the longest night, which was a crazy love triangle story that was insane. Population in this town, 6,385, and it's a college town. Oh, so they leave. That's including the students, so there's really not a lot of people there.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So the middle of nowhere where kids go to fucking drink beer.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's all. Every town has one. So they find poor Barry here. She is partially clothed and in the sagebrush out there, just lying there. Now, it was obvious when they see her that this was not a, oh, my God, I got hit in the head with a beer bottle and had to stab her to save myself once. She is absolutely cut to fucking ribbons, man. It's horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
You know it by the amount of blood he was covered in. It's horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
extensive bruising to her face so and head so beat this fucking poor girl beat her in addition to that numerous stab wounds evident on her torso and her throat had been sliced from ear to ear with such ferocity that she was nearly decapitated like like Nicole Brown Simpson essentially multiple multiple slashes by the way oh really not just one frenzy of slashes what the shit is his problem
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Oh, man. And it's cold in the winter here, as you can imagine, in northwestern Wyoming. This is in Park County, area code 307. Median household income here, a little lower than the national average. It's $60,210. Median home price, though, is a little bit high, $356,800. Wow. Yeah, it's a little pricey here.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And they determined that she was also violently raped before that as well. So it couldn't have been any worse for this poor fucking girl.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Her hands and arms were covered with defensive wounds. Her fingernails were broken off. I mean, she fought hard. Her hands are sliced to shit. She grabbed the knife blade several times to try to defend herself because that's in self-defense what they taught her. You lose a finger, but you don't get killed, basically. So it's fucking horrifying.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
These people, they want to murder this kid in the sagebrush, obviously. This is disturbing. So they call mom the next morning after they find poor Barry. And mom says, I remember, I'm sorry, this is the Powell police chief said, I remember trying to be very careful. But she said, listen, I'm a nuts and bolts type of person. I need you to tell me what happened and what you saw. The mom said that.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Like, listen, don't fucking dance around it. Tell me how bad it is, basically. So he explained what they pieced together and described what he saw when he got out there. And that's what she wanted to know. So anyway, he told police that after that, they said, dude, Levi. What you said happened didn't happen. Look what you did to this fucking girl. And he said, OK, fine. This is what happened.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He said, I drove her out here about 16 miles north of Powell. When I got there, she was upset and she got out of the car and started to walk back to town on foot.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah. She's I told you no. And I'm I will walk 16 miles. Fuck you. That's in the middle of the night.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Exactly. Exactly. Well, he fucking sped at 65 miles an hour probably.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So he said he had a hunting knife in his car and he put the knife in his back pocket and chased after her. He said he tackled her and raped her. He said he bit her to force her to submit to it. He was biting her. He used his teeth. He also sliced up her face to get her to stop struggling.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Was slicing up her face. It's fucking disgusting. Absolutely goddamn fucking disgusting. So, yeah. Yeah. So he said that he just – he wasn't – he went after her and he threw her on the ground and did it. And he said after that, he said that he admitted he beat her. He raped her. He claimed that he never meant to kill her, he said.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
This is crazy shit. So he justified his actions by saying he only stabbed her because she wouldn't stop fighting back. Oh, gee. She didn't want to get raped. You poor guy. What a pain in the ass. You can't even fucking... Wow. So this is obviously fucking disturbing. He's not a big guy, but he's athletic. He's a middle linebacker. That's why I told you about that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's why he can chase her down and tackle her. That's why I said, yeah, I'll give you these stats for no reason. He's good at it. He's good at it. She weighed like 105 pounds. And that's crazy. I guess... When she continued to fight, he said he pinned her hands to the ground with his knees and cut her again and then said he fuck.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He said that he became enraged by the sound of the breaths that she was making. Her breathing enraged him to the point where he thought to him it was an act of defiance, he said, that she was doing that. So he just kept slashing her throat, he said, to get her to stop breathing. Just ear to ear, back and forth. This is horrifying. This is Ted Bundy shit, man.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
A lot of Wyoming seems to be very pricey, which there's so much land and so few people, yet it's expensive. It's the strangest supply and demand. It completely flouts the rules of supply and demand economics.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He's had two other women accuse him, but this is an escalation. That's all. The last woman, what happened? He tried to go after her, and he got caught. So he realized, oh...
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
If you rape somebody, you have to kill them. Yeah. So that's unbelievable, man. They said he had a reputation for being a charmer and somehow managed to talk her into leaving with him. And I'm sure it was. I need help doing something for five minutes. You know, so that is she said. And everybody said they they were cordial.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So she wouldn't have had any reason to suspect he was going to attack her or anything like that. She's at college. These are all college students. Everybody knows them. They both know each other. You would never think that. So they charge him with first degree murder, first degree sexual assault and later on kidnapping as well.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Which obviously here he's held on a one million dollar bond and or without bond on the murder and a million dollar bond on the sexual assault. So you're not going anywhere, chief. The murder charge carries a maximum penalty of death and the sexual assault charge carries a penalty of up to 50 years in prison. So he's fucked. Yeah, he's he's fucked himself good. And I'm happy for it.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So I'm not happy that what happened, but I'm happy that they caught him. So they said this wasn't the first murder they've ever had around here, but the first one with this kind of brutality. Like, this is a small town, man. Her head's nearly cut off. This is fucking wild. One of the police officers said, man, you talk about a sucker punch to people's morale.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
They said the whole town, they literally started locking their doors at that point. This was... This was the breaking point where a small farming town went from, hey, everybody knows everybody. We all wave from our porches to lock them up, roll them up, lock them down.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah. Now we found out it exists. So now teachers and other people that knew Levi said that this was not the Levi they knew. This is crazy. One of his the former principal of his high school said, I never saw that side to Levi. How can you think you know someone and see something like this happen? And the sheriff said it's really taken a toll on the community. He was a pretty popular kid.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And there's nothing there. That's the other thing. Unless you're wealthy and a skier, there's nothing there.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He was a homecoming king and everything else. More than 300 students attended a campus memorial after the ceremony. They had a little ceremony for Barry's death there. Many of the kids, too, drove over 300 miles to Riverton for a funeral as well. She made an impact on people pretty quick here. The president at Northwest penned letters to parents reassuring them that, you know,
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
everything's fine, everything's good. It was a one-off thing. We got the guy. I guess hundreds of people on campus wore purple ribbons and a photo of her also. They had these purple ribbons with a picture of her on there. And emboldened by this death, Eight women at the college came forward to report they'd been raped in the last month.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Not by Levi, by other people, but they were too scared to come forward and they said, nope, this is what happens. Now they kill people the next time. And they came forward and reported what had happened. So this ended up emboldening a lot of people. That's good, in a good way. One of the ladies who came forward here agrees to press charges against Levi as well because he he attacked her as well.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Unless you're wealthy enough, we're staring at mountains for months at a time as an activity for you. A little bit of history here. Large fires took over the community, obviously. Is that right? Like every other town. February 12, 1915, a fire burned down at least nine businesses before finally the people extinguished it. This is how they extinguished the fire, by setting off dynamite.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, this is she learned of the murder and then said, oh, my God, I got to tell them what happened to me. This was two months before the murder. He coaxed her into his 1989 Pontiac by telling her it was all computerized, quote unquote, an 89 Pontiac. He had a digital speedometer is what he's talking about? What other computerized could be in 1989?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
There's Pac-Man in the dashboard? What are we talking about here?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
I don't know, it's just 89 Pontiac. Either way.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a fucking Firebird, totally, yeah. I loved that shit when I was a kid. Loved the Knight Rider car.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Levi, stop raping these women. Levi.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Levi, you have blood all over you. Please stop with the rape.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Levi, my interior is covered in viscera. So I guess when he said, yeah, no, no, look in it, look in it. And she was looking in the car. This is like a fucking I can't you wouldn't believe that a human being would actually do this. She was looking in the car when she got close to the car. He shoved her inside, trapped her in there and drove to a remote location. This is crazy. Yeah.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's straight up kidnapping. That's not even, I charmed him into the car. Even Ted Bundy tried to charm them into the car. He didn't fucking shove them into the car for the most part. I mean, that was part of the game for him. You know?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So when she resists and then he tried to have sex with her in the car when she resisted and ran away he tackled her bit her neck which is exactly what he did to fucking Barry. So this is what he does. He just escalated and bit her neck and forced fucking raped her.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Now we believe she believed him at the time. And now that he's locked up, though, now she's not afraid of him anymore. She comes forward. So that's good. Oh, and one more and one more. By the way, this is again, when this reaches the public, a woman calls the cops to say she had been attacked by him in 1995, almost exactly a year to the day before Barry's murder. Wow.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
The caller said that she had met Levi in a bar. He's 17 years old. And I don't know what's going on up here in Wyoming, man. And the two hit it off. She thought he was harmless and accepted his offer to go for a drive, which is he's perfecting. See what I mean? He's getting. Wow. Wow. Once they reached the outskirts of town, his demeanor completely changed.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He got the Bundy thing where he turns and his eyes are different colors now. Wasn't a friendly kid anymore. Now, all of a sudden, he told her we're going to have sex now in a very matter of fact way that was not. you know, wasn't cute or like choice. It wasn't like, Hey, you know, we're going to do right now. Winky dee wink. It was none of that shit. It was, we're going to have sex now.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So, you know, she was taken aback and she told him that they will not be having sex now, actually. So he pulled a gun out, held it to her fucking head and ordered her to strip.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He then raped her while raping her. What do you think he was doing?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Biting her face and biting her arms. She said like a rabid animal, like breaking the skin, ripping her apart. When it was over, he calmly told her that he would kill her and her whole family if she ever said anything to anybody about what just happened. And she said she thought this guy seems sick as fuck. He's capable of anything.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So she didn't come forward until she learned he was in police custody as well. This guy's a fucking monster. Serial killer. He would have been a serial killer. If he got away with this, he would have gotten worse and worse and worse. Absolutely. So will there be a trial here? Well, he waived a preliminary hearing.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's the craziest. That's how crazy the West was. They're like, there's a fire. We'll blow it up.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, he waived a preliminary hearing, which lets the prosecutor skip their obligation to present the evidence to basically to go to district court. It's a formality. He goes, oh, I know you have enough evidence. Fine. So it would have went to trial, obviously, because there's all this fucking evidence and he admitted to it. So they're talking about a potential plea deal where he may broker.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Basically, I won't go to trial, which is going to cost the state a lot of fucking money if I don't get the death penalty. That'll be the deal that they're making.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's it. Otherwise, they're going to. Yeah, they're going to. A bunch of cowboys are going to fry this fucking kid if they don't beat him to death first. So Jesus horses beat him. They might draw and quarter this man. So a spokesman in the Wyoming Wyoming attorney general's office said the murder trials can cost in the excess of millions of dollars, which the state just doesn't have.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
There's half a million people here. especially if the prosecutors are speaking the death penalty and then all the appeals that will follow. This is going to cost the state more than they spend on anything except snow removal and like bison carcass moving out of the road when they've been hit by a truck.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, we could do that maybe. So what this does here is it waives that requirement by the prosecutors, and they said no plea agreement has been reached, but – They're talking about it. They said it had been in Collins' best interest to waive the preliminary hearing, noting that the burden of proof in the hearing is more lenient than in an actual trial, so it wouldn't have helped him anyway.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
We tried shooting at it. That didn't work. Just try dynamite next. I don't know. Shit.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So they decide that they are going to plea bargain. He's going to plead guilty. They're not going to kill him. That's how this is going to work now. He's going to plead guilty to everything, kidnapping, rape, kidnapping of the other woman as well. It's all on the table here. So what everything happened in this state. So the Bryant family speaks at the sentencing. Sharon gets to speak.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
She said she was hoping for a sign of remorse from him. As she said, she's trying to beat him up with words. Basically, that's all she can do. She read from a prepared statement. She assured Levi that his hell on Earth had just begun and that she hopes his memories and nightmares are haunted by the sounds of her dying.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
You ain't even got to light it. We threatened to hang it first. That did nothing. We shot at it. Still blazing. I think blowing it up will work. That's amazing. So the resulting explosion broke all the windows of all the businesses that didn't burn down. So either way. So then they formed a fire department and purchased a new alarm bell and all that kind of thing.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So then the prosecutor read a statement from Ryan, who is her 16-year-old brother. By the way, this is happening in November, literally a month and a half after the murder. He is already pleading.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Well, like in most states, to get on the docket takes forever. It's Wyoming. Docket's wide open. There's tumbleweeds blowing through the courtroom. Just a judge sitting there waiting for you to fuck up so he can do something because they're bored.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, it's like an Arizona windshield wiper. You go to use it, it just breaks apart into pieces.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Shut the fuck up for a minute. I'm trying to type this in. Wait. Slow down. Backspace. Slow down. So Ryan said this is a very weird comment. This family's comments are on quote. I always knew I'd have to bury her, but not this soon. Why did you know you have to bet? She's two years older. It's not like she's 30 years older than him. I knew she'd go before me. You're the same age, essentially.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Man. And this poor kid, too. He loves his sister. This sucks. He said also, I hope and know you will be haunted by the spirit of my sister.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
She's an aggressive ghost now. I like that.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
We've heard a lot of these statements from victim impact statements. Have we ever heard that one before?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
I've never heard anyone wish haunting from like a spear. That's awesome. Ryan, you fucking, that's a cool thing to do, dude. At 16, you did better than anyone else has done in any court we've ever covered.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
My God. So members of Levi's family wrote letters to the judge begging for leniency. One of his former teachers told the news media that he remembered Levi as a polite, well-mannered young man. Well, now he's a biting, stabbing rapist. So who cares?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Wow. The judge said, not only fuck leniency, he said, I actually strongly considered rejecting the plea agreement to make sure that you get the prospect of the death penalty. He said, I honestly said, I almost said, fuck that. I want to kill this kid.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
He said, in this case, even if it were swift and certain, the death penalty would be too easy. You have taken away from the enjoyment of life of thousands of people. You are not fit to mingle among the good and decent people of our society. Called him a predator. Cold-blooded and even more despicable than his series of crimes.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And said, it is the expectation of this court that you will be imprisoned for the rest of your days. You, sir! Boom!
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
may fuck off three consecutive life sentences plus i think 20 years or some shit on top of that fuck you it's like in wyoming it's probably 85 years for yeah yeah he is fucked basically and up there that parole board doesn't hear a lot of crazy stories like this you're gonna be the worst guy they talk to every year they're gonna go that yeah this short meeting
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Then they replaced it with brick buildings, which that happened finally. That'll do it. That'll get rid of the fire. A couple reviews of this town. Just a few here. Here's a five star. I love living in Powell. It's a quiet town, which is exactly what I need in my life. What have you been through?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
This sentence was imposed less than two months from the time the crime was committed. There's no doubts about the sentence. No lengthy appeals process. It was swift and certain. Old West justice.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That is wild. Yeah, dude. December 22nd, the next year, he asks for a sentence reduction. Really? But guess who that's up to? The original judge who wanted him murdered before his eyes. This judge denied the sentence for reduction and told Colin at a sentencing hearing that he considered. I said, I didn't even want to take this fucking plea agreement.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And he said, you know, I thought execution was too easy for you. Think I'm going to let your shit down. The college also they installed emergency phones throughout the campus and they kind of this brought them into the 21st century as far as protecting the kids. Twenty twenty two. One of her friends.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
friends uh are the resident advisor i think one from when she was in college and her mom end up getting money together from donors to put a memorial bench in powell oh that's nice so yeah it's a nice memorial bench with her picture on it and her years and says strawberry it's very very very nice so they got that done uh in 2022 finally god damn
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And then her mom says, Sharon says, I feel like there was some healing that didn't take place many years ago. I really feel like this is something they needed. The space is a memorial to Barry, but it's also an icon for all people who have been removed from life unjustly. And then the next year, Sharon dies.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So she lived for that. And then 2023, she died. Let's see where they buried Barry. The Barry burial is at Mountain View Cemetery in Riverton, Wyoming. And it looks like dipshit Levi here is currently incarcerated at the Wyoming Medium Correctional Institution in Torrington, where he's involved in a dog training program. Oh, isn't that fucking nice?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
What a cunt. Yeah, fuck him. And then there is also a Barry Bryant Memorial Scholarship Endowment at Northwest College as well. And this was covered on a TV show. What is it? What the hell is this? Evil Lives Here. That's what it is. The Dark Road episode. So there you go, everybody. There is Wyoming. Hope you enjoyed Powell, Wyoming. Crazy shit, obviously. Swift fucking justice.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
If you enjoy that episode and swift justice, please give a nice review on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. Helps tremendously. You can really help the show. You can also help the show by going to shut up and give me murder dot com. Tickets for live shows, virtual live show for 19 April 19th. It's the.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
420 virtual live show available for two weeks after that to buy, purchase, watch, do whatever the fuck you want with, just like a regular live show. But right in your living room, I'm going to get Jimmy Superstone. Let's do it. Also, Chicago, May, what is it, 18th, I think? Chicago at the Riviera. Get your tickets there. Definitely do that. ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. Tons of bonus episodes. Anybody $5 a month or above this week. Crime and Sports, Spanish Paralympic team where nobody was actually disabled, but they won the gold. Good for them. Small Town Murder, American Nightmare, one of the craziest stories I've ever heard. It's a Netflix documentary on Netflix. Check that out. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Jesus, this person. I'm just shaking with nerves all the time. The people are kind, and living here is extremely beneficial for my social anxiety. There you go. I have extreme sensory overload issues. Wyoming's the place for you if this quag... If you're a human chihuahua, you need to be there. This is... Jesus, I've never seen so much controversy over the chihuahua comment.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And you get a shout-out at the end of the regular show. Want to follow us on social media? ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com has drop-down menus. Take you anywhere you want to go. That said, Until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad-free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And there's so many people from the Northeast going, I don't understand. That's just how it's said.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
If you'd like Southern people, I can pick out a couple of words you say completely incorrectly, and we'll talk about them repeatedly for a fucking week and a half. Okay. Because there's a couple. We pronounce things terribly, but come on now.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So here's a three-star. Powell is a wonderful place to live. The town has a very small-town feel. The people here are nice, and there is beauty surrounding us. Summers or winter are beautiful, but winters can be brutal. Summers or winter, I just said.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Finally, two stars, small town, only few stores. It is great if you prefer close community. Nothing open past 11 p.m. Not much to do for college students either. No Walmart or shopping.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Nope, it's only 30 minutes from Cody, however. Things to do here, the JWP days.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Okay. Yep, that's it right there. Wesley Powell, whatever the hell. There's activities for both children and adults. This fun-filled afternoon is packed with all sorts of activities. For example, activities include a bike obstacle course and adults 21 plus can make their way to the beer garden for refreshments. Okay. So to clarify, this is still a day for family friendly. That's what's fun here.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And they do. They have a bike parade that night.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Then they have an award ceremony. Okay. The award ceremony is for those who participated in the bike to school and bike to work events. So here are the prizes. Those who bike the most to school. That's you get a prize for that. You bike the most.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, it's fucking Wyoming. In three feet of snow, it's hard to take your huffy over to the school at that point. But if that's not for you, you know what you can do? Just wait until 9 p.m. because they're going to be showing Rad, the movie.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Oh, is it bicycles? I think, well, it says it's an end your evening with the nostalgia of a drive-in movie experience with the favorite 80s cult classic coming-of-age BMX movie, Rad. The story of a young man, Crew Jones, who has the intensity and desire to win a BMX race called Hell Track. Bring the kids. They'll laugh at it. It'll be hilarious. His name's Crew? Crew, C-R-U, Crew Jones.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay, choo-choo. Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you so much for joining us on another insane 10 pounds of murder in a two pound bag edition of Small Town Murder Express. Again, we have another crazy episode for you this week. Big shocker.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Let's talk about a murder, everybody.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Okay, here we go. Let's talk about a young lady first here with a cool name. Her name is Berry, B-E-R-R-Y, Berry. It's her full real name. Wow. Berry Alexis Bryant. So, Barry Bryant here. She's born March 21st, 1978. So, it's the first day of spring. Look at that.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
I don't know if he was still. That's kind of the edge of that. I think he was probably gone by then.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Bryant's a pretty common last name.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Her name's Berry Bryant, yeah. Her mom calls her Strawberry. I really don't think they named their daughter after Bear Bryant. I wanted to know that. Really, that's as big a stretch as you could really do. Berry is such a feminine name, too, and you're like, I think it's Bear is what they're going for.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
That's the strangest fucking. So she's born in Lewiston, Montana. They stayed in Roy, Montana. They lived in Plummer, Idaho. And then finally to Riverton. That's where they moved in 1980. So in her first two years of her life, she lived in like six different places.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, all that northwest area there. She has a brother, Ryan, that's about two years younger. And her moving around is explained by her mom, Sharon, here. Sharon said, I married a man who groomed me for marriage and took advantage of me. It took me... Yeah, I don't know when they got together. She doesn't say that, but... It took me seven years to leave him and I barely got out with my life.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
It had gotten to the point of kill or be killed. So that's all.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah. It seems like they were like running from this guy or something, trying to get away from him. She said that her husband, I think it's Barry's father. I'm not sure, had worked hard to isolate her and make sure she didn't have any resources at her disposal, making it hard for her to leave. You know, abuser shit, you know.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
So after she got away from her husband, she returned to her hometown of Riverton. Where she said, I guess I relaxed. I felt I was safe in my community and my children were safe. So mom did all she could to get her kids away from a terrible guy.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Good stuff. That's a good mom. You know what I mean?
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
She could have stayed and let her kids then be abused for years and years by this fucking guy. So a little bit about Barry here. Barry is an explosive personality. I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean, she's fun. She is all energy all the time. Got a lot going on. And like in high school, she's involved in like every activity. I would be exhausted doing any one of these things.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Just the amount of energy you'd have to do to do school and this. She played saxophone in the jazz band, which right away sounds like that's tiring. Just a lot of blowing and a lot of...
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
You got to do that up and down movement over and over again. I don't know how people play those instruments.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Your lips are fucked up. That's a whole lifestyle you got to get used to there. And she ran track and cross country. In her freshman year, she placed 11th in the state in the 4A cross country meet.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
She's pretty good, and she graduates in 1996 from Riverton High School, so that's the era she's in high school. She was also in the 4-H club. She did, like we said, cross-country, regular track, not just cross-country. She did the music saxophone stuff. She did the drill team and the free-steppers. I don't know what that is. I don't know. I had no clue. I didn't do activities in high school.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
It's crazy stuff. So before we get to that, though, just want to tell you about definitely head over to shut up and give me murder dot com. What are you going to get there? Well, first of all, you get merch and everything like that. But tickets to live shows are the important thing. The 420 virtual live show takes place on April the 19th.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
She won a bunch of awards and honors. She was a Riverton High School Student of the Week, and she was selected for the Who's Who Among American High School Students group from some magazine.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And somehow she has a million friends and has a big social life and all that. I don't even know how you'd have time for that. You'd get home and be exhausted.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Isn't that crazy? Yeah. This is so the opposite of my high school career.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Her life was like be at school as much as possible.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Whereas I think our experience was get out of school as soon as we possibly could in the day.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
And maybe a couple classes short of that, even. I'm going home, and I ain't coming back till tomorrow.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
I'm already gone, yeah. Going, ah, those suckers.
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
Yeah, I'm going to smoke half a pack before this idiot gets out of biology and learns how bad this is for me. So...
Small Town Murder
#584 - Killer Homecoming King - Powell, Wyoming
big personality lots of friends always laughing very gregarious that's the best way to describe her um her mom says she remembers that she would have belching contests with uh between her her barry and barry's best friend would have belching contests so she's a fun girl yeah she's a fun chick man that's fun in high school i would have liked her you know what i mean i'm