David Frum
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Yeah, well, you know, we've been having kind of two tracks and it's a symbol. It's an interesting symbol about how our politics is changing. Yeah. All of the heat right now at the Supreme Court and all of the attention on the Supreme Court is on the Trump administration litigation cases.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
So you've got a lot more heat about Birthright Citizenship or Alien Enemies Act than you do about like the traditional culture war cases that are also coming up to the court. So... You have a case, for example, on Texas's law restricting age-gating access to pornography. In some universes, that would be one of the biggest cases of the term.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Or you've got Tennessee's restriction on medical interventions for gender-affirming care. Two, three years ago, that would be the number one case on everyone's mind. And it's fascinating to me, as the Republican Party is becoming something very different. Like Bernie economics with... We're going to get into the foreign policy side of things here in a minute.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Yeah, it's like Bernie's economics and Code Pink's foreign policy. I mean, you know, what is even happening here? And so that means that a lot of the culture war issues...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
That very much coded Republican versus Democrat or very much where the things that were getting people out of bed in the morning to go post on Twitter are receding in importance to the sort of more fundamental structural issues of American democracy, such as, you know, these minor questions of how long can we keep our republic or.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Will the global international order that has kept great power peace since 1945 collapse in front of our eyes because we killed it? Those things are very much more in people's minds than the culture war stuff, which, though important, compared to those kinds of issues, feels more or less like a historical blip by comparison to trends that might be talked about in 100 years. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Okay. Recommend grand babies. Yeah. Do not recommend moving. However, However, grandchildren are the good reason to go ahead and upend your life. So we're in the middle of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Tim, Tim, Tim, this case is something else. So this goes, this is a police violence case. It's a police shooting case. And it involves a situation. It's horrible. This is awful. But a police officer pulls over a car for unpaid tolls. Turns out that it was a rental car and the person driving it wasn't even the person who refused to pay the toll. So they've just rented a car. They're driving.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
They don't know why they're getting pulled over. They didn't do anything wrong. They didn't fail to pay the toll. But then things get really weird. So the cop comes up. There's at the beginning a normal exchange, but it kind of gets a little weird. And at one point, the police officer says, can you get out of the car? The driver turns the car on.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The police officer starts to say he had turned the ignition off. Then he turns the ignition on. The police officer starts to warn him, tries to demand that he get out of the car. The driver inexplicably says, starts to drive away. Nobody knows why he starts to drive away. The police officer inexplicably jumps on the moving car. And in the space, which is, again, that's inexplicable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
A human being does not stop a moving car by jumping on the side of it. OK, so he jumps on the side of the moving car, which then puts him in mortal danger. There's just no question if you're hanging on to the side of a car as it's driving that you are in total mortal danger. So he pulls out his gun and he shoots and he kills the driver.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And so the family of the deceased driver sues the officer because they were saying, look, this is totally unnecessary. This shooting was totally unnecessary. You created the danger by jumping on the car that you then resolved by killing him. And so the Fifth Circuit had said, no, no, you don't ask the question, why did he jump on the car?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
You don't look at anything other than the immediate moment of the threat. And if at that immediate moment, the police officer reasonably felt like his life was in danger, he can pull the trigger. And so the issue was at the Supreme Court, do you look at the totality of the circumstances that led up to the shooting? Or do you only look at the immediate moment of the threat?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And, Tim, I know America isn't being torn apart right now by these police violence cases, but this is a critically important case going forward. I mean, it was the driver black, just for the context of this. The Supreme Court ruled that you have to look at the totality of the circumstances and send it back down. Oh, interesting. So it was a very good ruling. So they sided with the driver.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The Supreme Court sided with the driver, yes. The Supreme Court sided with the deceased, sided with the driver. And sent it back down for more proceedings. But it was a very... good and important.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
It's one of these background cases that's more important than people realize because one of the problems we have, and you and I both know this, is this just total lack of trust in institutions, just this collapsing trust. Well, one of the ways you destroy trust is by insulating institutions from accountability.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And some of these doctrines that have protected police have insulated law enforcement from accountability and degraded trust. And this is a good, this is a step towards accountability.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
borderline insane bill we just remember tim came out of a period of inflation in the early years of the biden term that you know you don't want to overuse this word but it absolutely like sort of had a especially amongst poor middle-class working-class families had a traumatic effect um where you're talking about people living paycheck to paycheck whose paychecks are purchasing less and less and so
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And the overhang from that inflation and the long-term consequences of that inflation are chief reason why Kamala Harris isn't president of the United States. And so you would think that this sort of notion that we can spend, spend, spend, run up deficits at astronomical levels, that that would be old think. In other words, we've now realized that
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
All these kind of folks who said deficits don't matter, that public spending is sort of this thing that you can just turn on the spigot and you solve the recessions and do all of these amazing things. That's over.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Oh, yeah, it's it should be over. But apparently it's not. And this time it's coming through the Republicans, not through turning on the spigot and spending giant, giant, giant sums of new money. They are doing that to some extent by also by starving the government of revenue. by the continuing tax cuts without any kind of systemic fiscal reform at all.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And if your listeners don't follow Jessica Riedel of the Manhattan Institute, they really need to on Twitter. Jessica is probably, and this is a person who is consistently asked to come to the Hill for the kind of closed door briefings where members get the straight scoop or off the record briefings where members get the straight scoop.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
But Jessica's work has been invaluable and just sort of showing this sheer scale that this just the incredible scale of our fiscal problem and how this bill is going to make everything worse. I mean, people forget that the deficit went up. under Trump, every year, even during peace and prosperity, before COVID, the deficit was increasing every year. He's the king of debt. Oh, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Even though Doge has made all these headlines about cutting, cutting, cutting, by some measures, the Trump administration is already outspending the pace of the Biden administration. And then you add on the big, beautiful bill, and you're going to have Everybody knows that we can't keep doing this. And yet we keep doing this and doing it worse and worse.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And the big, beautiful bill is just going to make things worse.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Tim, it's a great summer city and it's not summer yet. So, you know, you just, you just got to give Chicago a pass until like it's officially summer. And then it's just a tremendous place to be.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Right. And, you know, this is part of this Trump instinct. At one moment, he wants to give everything away to anybody who asks to win over love and adoration and approval. So in some days, he's not going to ask any of his constituents to pay any more money.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
He's not going to make any painful cuts except to people he doesn't care about, which, you know, a lot of people in the Medicaid world are saying, no, no, no, these are a lot of your voters. These are a lot of your voters. Why are you doing this? So one day he's promising the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And then another day he's when he's talking about tariffs and trade, he's like, get ready for the austerity and the difficulty. So that's just back and forth. It's Bernie one day. It's like it's like a possessed Bernie one day and then it swings to possessed Paul Ryan the next day. And that's just no way to run an economy. No.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
It's like that Bizarro World Superman, Bizarro World, you know, so this is Bizarro World Bernie, Bizarro World Paul Ryan. But we don't know. Monday, it's Bernie Day. Tuesday, it's Ryan Day. Who knows?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Yeah, I mean, why would Putin come to the table? I mean, now, there are a lot of reasons why a reasonable conclusion ruler would come to the table here. I mean, he's his military suffered catastrophic losses, the young men of his country being bled dry. But this is not a reason.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The problem with that is, of course, Putin knows Zelensky won't accept those terms. And so one of the things that is unfolding right now, and this is something that actually I was talking to some people right at the start of Trump's term who had been following this entire saga since before the original invasion of Crimea in 2014. And they said this,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Trump doesn't realize how much Putin has changed. He is not dealing with the Vladimir Putin of his first term. He is not. He's dealing with a man who has launched the biggest land war in Europe since World War II, has gotten away with it to the extent that right now it's still him against Ukraine with his North Korean allies coming in. He's launched a war that he thinks right now he is winning.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And Trump's unwillingness to stand with Ukraine gives Putin every belief that he can just keep winning. So why do you concede anything if you're Vladimir Putin, where, yeah, there has been some aid released that was pre-approved in the Biden administration over to Ukraine, but there's no new aid apparently coming back. from the United States.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Putin, I don't think, thinks Europe can sustain this war effort. And so Putin believes he's holding all of the cards. And it's really interesting watching this sort of realization dawning on J.D. Vance or others that, well, golly, gee, Putin might not be negotiating in good faith. We've been reaching out to him. I mean, and you're just thinking, Where have you been?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Zelensky, look, I'm old enough to remember. Zelensky very calmly in the Oval Office telling J.D. Vance that Putin can't be trusted. And J.D. Vance using that as a pretext to unload on Zelensky, you know, in front of the world to the thunderous applause of MAGA, look at our guy standing up. And everything that Zelensky told him is being borne out in real time. And J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Vance and that team are like, whoa, wait, what? What's going on?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you said that, Tim, because one of the things that we're seeing about the right is you take almost any malady of the far left, and then you take it over to the Trump right, and they make it worse. So cancel culture from the far left, bad. MAGA cancel culture? Hold my beer. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Far left condescension, smug, you know, if you're disagreeing with me, you're a bad problematic person. That's bad. Trump turns it into, if you disagree with me, I'm so obviously right that you're not just an idiot if you disagree, that you're also a coward. And so MAGA overlays the cowardice over the, you know, idiocy and problematic allegation.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And so every malady you saw on the far left in the sort of woke world, the anti-woke MAGA world has replicated and amplified. And what you just pointed out, this condescension, this smugness, this arrogance is one of those maladies that it's just amplified. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Yeah, I don't think you can look at these Supreme Court cases in isolation any longer. I think what you're looking at right now is an emerging understanding with the Supreme Court. Well, I would say seven members of the Supreme Court that this administration cannot be trusted.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
What has happened? It would have to depend on how we measure the obsequiousness scale, because is it from start point to finish point? If it's that scale, Marco Rubio has the Olympic gold easily. Because this was a guy, remember in 2016, who was sounding the alarm as loudly and urgently as anyone in that race.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
He did not do what Ted Cruz did for a while, which was to play super nice and friendly with Trump. Rubio was more against Trump sooner than a lot of the other guys were. And then he goes from that to this. That's a huge migration. And in my experience, Tim, there are some great, valuable life lessons you can learn by being a litigator for 21 years.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And one of the things that you learn is that when people can commit to a bit so much that they become the bit. And one of the things that I remember thinking when I was a young lawyer was, what's it like to represent somebody who knows they're guilty? In other words, they know they're guilty. Well, I was mainly a civil litigator, not criminal. It's a different thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And one of the things that I saw was that in civil litigation, people could convince themselves of almost anything. If enough money is on the line, if enough pride is on the line and enough years and months and years go by, people migrate into the bit completely. And I feel like that's where we are with a lot of these Republicans, traditional Republicans who are now quite maggot.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
They have migrated and they are the bit now. They are into the bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Oh, I totally agree. When I meet somebody who's as vocally Trump-loving as Rubio is – I'm now know I mean, I know countless people like that, just countless people like that, including former establishment Republicans who are effusive. And I I do not detect deception here. And I will tell you this. It's also a different thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Like when you're traveling in Republican circles in 2016, you had there was this constant. He's doing terrible things. I wish he wasn't our guy. But then when the cameras come on, then you defend him and attack the Democrats. I'm not hearing that green room honesty anymore as much or not nearly as much. A little bit on the bill, on the financial stuff, like a little bit on the tariffs and stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And the reason why I say that is because you've had now twice the court intervening in the Alien Enemies Act context very quickly. very quickly in very unusual ways. And so this is where the dissent, you know, maybe if you squint has a point because the court really is intervening in these cases at just record speed. It's remarkable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Oh, no question. No question. I mean, this idea that we're going to effectively switch sides in the Ukraine war to side with Russia. The Republican Party, for... generations would have been apoplectic. This is worse than any of the alleged, you know, the appeasement or weakness allegations thrown at a Walter Mondale back in the day or a George McGovern back in the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Oh, it's unbelievable. It's just unbelievable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The direct attack on the United States of America, the direct attack sort of on our history and our foreign policy and all of its predecessors, and then the appeasement of a Russian dictator, the imitation in many ways of a Russian dictator's approach to foreign policy, where this whole spheres of influence, where Canada now becomes more of an enemy than Russia in some ways.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
I mean, what are we even... We're trying to bully and intimidate our neighbors the way that Putin tries to bully and intimidate his neighbors. This is something that—and here's what's frustrating to me, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Such a small percentage of Americans pay close attention to politics that there are millions of Republicans who are walking around still thinking that the Republican Party is the hawkish party on national defense. They're still thinking that this is—if you want strength— If you want toughness, you go to Donald Trump. And what we are seeing is with Trump, you're beginning to see appeasement.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Not just beginning to see, you're seeing appeasement. You're seeing abandonment of allies. You're seeing weakness. You're seeing retreat. You're not seeing toughness. And then this much vaunted Houthi bombing campaign, which I think one of Biden's failures was his failure to deal with the Houthis and Trump was gonna do it. And so for a month or whatever, he bombs the crap out of the Houthis.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
He was in the bombing phase, which is the pre-building phase, right? Got it. And so he's bombing the crap out of the Houthis to no apparent effect. And then just like calls it a day. And I guess the shipping lanes aren't as vital anymore. I mean, it's all very confusing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And, you know, my newsroom colleagues at the Times wrote up a really tremendous report of sort of the confusion around the bombing campaign. And And how it was, how ineffective it was. And let's look at the Pete Hegseth record so far. We've had a signal chat scandal. We've had the loss of a lot of his senior team. We've had a signal chat scandal 2.0.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And we've had a completely ineffective bombing campaign against the Houthis. But hey, at least the military isn't woke anymore, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
People who don't follow the Supreme Court closely really have no idea how unusual all this is that these cases are hitting this fast. So it's intervening very, very quickly. It's intervening in a way that is increasingly decisive.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
So you had more vague language like facilitate return, for example, or you had more vague language like due process, notice and an opportunity to be heard before removal. And now it's getting to be like, no, no, no, you're not doing it correctly. This notice you're giving is not notice enough. And the one other thing which also links, we also had the birthright citizenship oral argument.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Well, the thing is, Mike Pence had a reaction to January 6th that normal people would have, which is, these people tried to kill me. They may not be great people. And then you have all these senators and congressmen who are like, these people tried to kill me. How can I be closer to this team?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Now, this cutter plane issue. You know, you're of two minds of it, because one of them should be nothing about it should be surprising. I mean, the guy has been I mean, just going back to the first term when one of the first signs that somebody had were an organization had really began to turn from traditional conservative to MAGA was.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
they're renting out the Trump hotel ballroom for their events, right? So, because Trump is still master of his empire, his business empire while he's president of the United States. And so people are, you know, using Trump properties and spending money at Trump events and Trump properties. So he's taken this to a whole nother level with the Trump meme coin scandal and that, you know, that
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The crypto nonsense. So this is just the next evolution. And so in the one sense, you wouldn't be surprised. But in another sense, you just sometimes have to step back for a minute and just do this mental exercise of.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
What if Barack Obama had agreed to receive an airplane from a nation that supports Hamas and that his attorney general, who had previously been paid, what was it, $100,000 a month by the same nation before she became attorney general, signs off on it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Yeah, the other people's planes might be nicer than our plane. And look, I'm not defending Boeing in any way, shape or form for not getting the plane, the Air Force One done on time on budget. The new Air Force One. Boeing has problems. But the cure to Boeing, Boeing's problems is not a Qatari plane. That's not the cure to Boeing's problems. So it's just utterly, utterly absurd where we are here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And then this extra layer of it's not a gift to him, say his defenders on Twitter, because it's going to his library afterwards, like in the Reagan library. Well- The understanding I have is that this is not just going to be going into some hangar and sitting around in a Trump library. This thing may well be available for his use after he leaves office.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
So an opulent 747 to his opulence tastes becomes his for his use after office. Now, it remains to be seen how it will all work out. We have to acknowledge that. It remains to be seen how it will all work out. But this is just, this should be shocking stuff. It is not shocking stuff to a sufficient number of people.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The presence of those protesters is a rebuke to those people who would dehumanize the Palestinians on the right to say there are no, and I'm sure you've seen this on Twitter, there are no innocent Palestinians, they're all bad, they're all awful. Oh, sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And this was a temptation that some people had during the worst days of the Iraq war was to sort of think of the Iraqi people and dehumanize the Iraqi people. But my commander in Iraq said something really brilliant at the start of our deployment.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
He said, a lot of you guys are going to be hostile to the Iraqi people because you're going to see them seemingly totally passive in the face of some horrific evil. And he said, let me ask you a question. What do you call one man with a gun in a room full of 100 people? I don't know, sir. A majority, he said. They dictate the terms.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And it was very telling. There was a very telling moment when Amy Coney Barrett asked the Trump administration about would it comply with rulings? Would it respect precedent? And the Trump administration said generally it was talking about precedent coming out of the circuits. And I believe the quote was generally, yes, in general. In general is not the right answer.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
So for us to understand the mindset and the thoughts of the other 100 people, you've got to get rid of the man with a gun. And once you get rid of the man with a gun, the civil society can flourish. And I've thought about that in the context of Hamas. They've been living under this Hamas brutality for a very long time, 20 or so years. They've been living under Hamas brutality.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
They know very well if they stand up to Hamas, they could be killed, brutally tortured and killed. And so to see this as breathtaking bravery, and it's a sign for everyone on the far right who says, these people are just... Too far gone. No, no. There are people showing indescribable courage.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And then for those people on the far left who some for some reason tend to think that Hamas is some sort of authentic representative of the Palestinian people and that it's somehow an acceptable outcome of this war.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
or that an acceptable outcome of this war is Hamas still in charge, those protesters rebuke them as well, because they're a living symbol that no, Hamas is not a representative of the Palestinian people. It's a faction, no question, but it is not the representative of the Palestinian people. And so, you know, I think it's one of the most courageous things I've ever seen
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And it has within it the seeds, the very, very, very small seeds of actual hope here. But hope does not live for very long in the Middle East.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
8647 or no. I mean, it's not even close. I mean, so let's look at this from two standpoints. One is, is 86 a violent threat? No, no. I was a waiter back in the day, Tim. I don't know. Really?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Yeah. Where? What kind of restaurant? So I was a waiter at a restaurant called Daryl's in Nashville. It was a chain restaurant, kind of like an Applebee's back in the day, except a little, you know, they all have like an outfit.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
I did not have to wear flare, thankfully, but I did have to wear those suspenders. I had to have a, I had to have a handwritten name tag and then I had the white shirt and I had like a maroon suspenders. That's cute. And then I left Daryl's and worked at the Old Spaghetti Factory, which I think is still on 2nd Avenue in downtown Nashville.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And so that, my friend, is a crappy waiting tables job because there's like seven courses and the meals are cheap. Yeah. It's a bad combo. Lots of work. Exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
This was an inefficient way to tell this story. But when you're waiting tables, you know, 86, the fries, like you're out of the fries, 86, the, you know, 86, the filet or the prime rib, you're out of it. And so he's meaning like we should be done with him. Yeah. So that's not a violent threat.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And the other thing, though, even if a reasonable person could interpret it as some sort of aspirationally violent sentiment, there's actually Supreme Court authority on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The answer is only yes, we will respect precedent. So you could hear the irritation in Amy Coney Barrett's voice in that moment. So I think you're seeing an increasingly impatient and skeptical Supreme Court.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Now, in that context, where you're actually storming the building... No, I meant if just the stones said, hang Mike Pence. Right. There is a case about a Vietnam War protester who, during the Vietnam War, said, if I'm drafted, the first thing I do when I get a rifle is I'm going to shoot Johnson. And this went all the way up to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said, that's free speech.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
That is free speech. So... It's a joke. It's a ridiculous joke that they would call this some sort of violent threat or actionable threat.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Yeah, I think bribery is a major stretch, especially considering the recent Supreme Court authority on that issue. I think what you're talking about is You know, you throw around a legal term of art like that. No, but it's a grift, man. And it is cowardice. It is a cowardice in the most significant way. And it's not just cowardice in the abstract. It's very dangerous cowardice.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Because what we're seeing, Tim, I'm actually less alarmed that Donald Trump is Donald Trump than I am that major institutions capitulate to Donald Trump. Because when he came in, we knew who he was. We knew his character. And so none of the things that he's doing should surprise us at all.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
However, what is surprising me is the sort of retreat and capitulation of key elements of civil society, including big, big legal institutions, including major media institutions. So you're beginning to see, Tim, how Americans and American institutions were not made of some sort of special clay, right? where we're uniquely resistant to thugs and tyrants.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
We do have systems that help us resist thugs and tyrants, but the people who make up these systems in many ways are just as weak, just as cowardly as you've seen around the world in the face of autocrats. But to see that in the U.S. is...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Being proud of the fact that you have an increasingly diverse workforce is not evidence of illegality. Okay, so... It is absolutely true, however, that you can potentially create diverse workforces through illegality because race-based hiring, race-based promotion is illegal. Okay, so it should not occur. However, it is very weird.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
We're getting to a very weird time, Tim, when if a person who is hired is not a white male, people presume malfeasance. OK, I shouldn't laugh. That's horrible. But yeah, you're right. I mean, but think about it for five seconds. I mean, like, oh, wait, there's a black police commissioner. Well, that's obviously DEI or there's a woman pilot.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Well, that's obviously DEI because the default competence is white dudes. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. The fact of the matter is that a nation that has, like our nation, been afflicted with centuries of de jure and de facto racism, that when you stop being racist, just that alone is going to start increasing diversity. Okay? Sure. So being not racist will increase diversity.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
But then if you've got an administration saying, oh, look at that increased diversity, there must be a problem. That is not the way the law works.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And also, it is not the case, and this is so important for people to realize, after the Harvard ruling on affirmative action, which I think was the right ruling that Harvard cannot discriminate on the basis of race and its admissions, I think that was the correct ruling, it is not the case that diversity efforts are now illegal. It is not the case.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
For example, here's an example of a very legal and quite good diversity effort, the Texas 10% rule. So the Texas 10% rule allows you to be admitted to a major Texas public university if you finish in the top 10% of your high school class. That disproportionately helps non-white applicants. It does provide assistance and help to non-white applicants, but it's a race neutral criteria.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
So it's just, are you in the top 10% or not? And so because of the facts of historic marginalization, whenever you reach out on the basis of class, you have disproportionate benefits also on the basis of race. That is not illegal. In fact, it's not just not illegal.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
I think it's actually a really good thing for institutions to do is to reach out on the basis of socioeconomic class, which does increase racial diversity. It's a race-neutral way of increasing American diversity and representation in American institutions.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And so what the Trump administration is doing, however, is just basically taking any move that honors the existence of black people in the workforce or women in the workforce or you name it. And then uses that as evidence of illegality when you and I both know that a super white workforce, they would look at and go, oh, meritocracy, baby.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And look, if you can prove that there is discrimination on the basis of race, file that suit. Prove it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
you know, Trump has been pretty mild in his criticism by his standards. I mean, he has some tweeted out or truthed out some pretty deranged stuff about the Supreme Court in general.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
I mean, you know, I'm enough of a fan of British crime dramas, Tim, to be aware of the near universal existence of CCTV overseas. I mean, in Britain. But why do all the murders happen in the CCTV blind spot? Well, you got to advance the plot, David. I got to advance the plot. That's right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Well, so traditionally, there's been this phrase used when you're describing what is reasonable and unreasonable when it comes to search and seizure. Like, when do you need a warrant versus not a warrant, et cetera. And there's this phrase that has endured for a while. Although you criminal defense lawyers and prosecutors listening, I understand I'm about to paint with a broad brush here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And there's lots of nuances. But there's been a phrase that has been used for a while. that is reasonable expectation of privacy. So if you're in a place where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, like your own home or in other circumstances, in a hotel room or other places, then that's this sort of zone of protection.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
But if you're out in public, out in public, you've generally not been deemed to have a reasonable expectation of privacy. And so things like you know, traffic light cameras or CCTV, things like that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Well, no, you're being perfectly consistent. You want to get away with your transgressions and you don't want anyone else to get away with theirs. Correct. Okay, thank you. Thank you, David. I appreciate that. I am consistent. It's an ethos. It's an ethos. But yeah, so I tend to be fine with CCTV in public spaces, but the devil's in the details.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Like, as you were saying, if you've got a bad AI model or you've got something here that is creating a kind of dragnet effect that could result in people, innocent people being sort of grabbed...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
By his standards, right, which is obscene for everybody else, but by his standards. And I'm talking about the very specific, aimed at his justices that he appointed. You haven't seen that as much. However, MAGA is over some of these guys, especially MAGA is over Amy Coney Barrett.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
I've got to say I'm rooting for the Knicks. I've got to say. So I kind of go, I am a very geographic sort of fan, which is I root for the team where I live. So that's Memphis. is closer to me and living in Tennessee. But I also used to live in for a year in New York. So I've got that, I've been to the garden when it's rocking and the crowd's going insane.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
So I've got a tiny, and then, hey, I work for a New York company. So they're not my first choice, but I'm jumping on the Knicks bandwagon right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Ant is incredible to watch. hilarious to listen to, and a total mess. Right. All things I love. He is an absolute mess. But one of my favorite interactions was last year when they were advancing to the Western Conference Finals against the Mavericks. And Sir Charles, one of the great living Americans, Charles Barkley, is interviewing Ant.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And he says, it's been a while since I've been to Minnesota. And Ant interrupts him and goes, well, bring your ass. Bring your ass. It was so funny. And in the moment, you hear the studio breaking up, and it was just like this complete interjection. It was so funny.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Well, I'm the only one who cursed, Tim. I'm the only one who cursed.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
I just said, you know, I just quoted Ant, you know, so I don't think you... Did you say anything worse than ass over the course of the whole...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
But the problem here, Tim, is if you followed these people closely over the years, if you've, if you've known about Amy Coney Barrett or Brett Kavanaugh or Neil Gorsuch before Trump, you would know that it would be surprising if they just fell in line behind him.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
That would be the surprise because they had records and they had their own independent existences and philosophies before Trump came along. And they're in a very different position from a Mike Johnson or a John Thune. They don't have to worry about primaries. They don't have that pressure hovering over them. So what do they have to face? Twitter, shame storms?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
They do have threats for sure, but they have security. And I'm not so sure that threatening them is productive. I'm not so sure that threatening them is going to give you the results that you want. And so- These are people who are independent. They have their own record of accomplishment. They have their own, you know, they have their own dignity and they don't have to face primary voters.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And historically, the more you push them and the more you threaten them, the more resistant they become.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
There seems to be very little question – well, certainly Ginny Thomas, certainly heavily radicalized. And she was actively an active participant in the coup. Yeah. I don't think we have to dive into the psychology of their marriages to know that – Definitely, when it comes to Thomas and often Alito, they are in a different category in approaching these cases than the other seven.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And I honestly wonder, and here's what I do wonder. I do wonder if... Thomas and Alito are still willing to give the administration sort of the traditional benefit of the doubt in some ways. This presumption of regular order that we've talked about on advisory opinions has been sort of been kind of a part of the approach to the Department of Justice from the judiciary.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The Department of Justice has been seen as a respectable player in. in the legal, you know, has been seen as sort of a standard setting, not just respectable, but standard setting player in the legal system. And so there's been this kind of, and you talk to defense attorneys and they can go on at length about, there's just too much deference to the Department of Justice.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And I think that you still have some of that coming from Thomas and Alito. And I don't think you see it from the other seven.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Well, I think there's a lot more hope now, even than there was a week ago on two counts. And they're related to something I said earlier. Count number one is just the most recent case, which says we mean due process. We mean it. OK, so it's not 24 hours notice. It's not 12 hours notice. That doesn't satisfy it. You have to have an actual process here. So that's number one.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And then number two, you had the birthright citizenship oral argument. which I think was going down the road might be more important than people realize because everyone's sort of focused on the merits of birthright citizenship. Like, is this thing actually legal? And if you think that Trump's birthright citizenship EO is legal, you had no comfort from the court in that oral argument.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
It was, if you listen to the oral argument, it was almost presumed that it was an illegal executive order. But what they were really wrestling with was this concept of the nationwide or the universal injunction.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And it became pretty clear that at least a significant part of the court says one way through this, rather than sort of having these grab bag injunctions and not injunctions from district to district, would be to organize class level relief. And so it was very clear to me that the court was encouraging this, that it was encouraging going down the route of class certification.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And so when you have that kind of encouragement from the Supreme Court, I think you're going to see that radiate down to the lower courts and you could have classes of potential deportees under the Alien Enemies Act and then seek relief on that basis.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
Well, okay, so this is a weird case because what was actually up before the court and what they actually spent 95% of their time talking about was the whole concept of the universal injunction or the nationwide injunction. Got it. So it was really an argument about the injunction power much more than it was an argument about birthright citizenship.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
It was this weird argument, Tim, because it was almost like everyone was saying, okay, we know this birthright citizenship order is total hot, steaming garbage. Everybody knows this. What's the right way to strike it down? That was sort of the whole tone of the argument.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
So you could very well end up with a kind of headline out of the Supreme Court that's something like, Trump wins victory, but it would only be a victory in the sense that this nationwide injunction concept is pulled back some. That's not really a Trump victory. That's more of a limitation on the judicial branch.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
But then what you'll also have is alternatives to the nationwide injunction, such as class actions. And then that's where Trump's – he's just not going to win on birthright citizenship. There was just no – there wasn't a glimmer of hope on birthright citizenship for the Trump administration that leaked out of that oral argument, not a glimmer.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And so what about the side of it about the injunctions? How do you think that they're going to? So I think on the injunction point, they may well say, okay, nationwide injunctions are pulled back to some extent, but I'm fine with that, Tim. I'm, I'm fine with that. This is something that has been a problem in, for across multiple administrations. This is not just a Trump thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And what happens for listeners who not really followed this closely is let's suppose a president enacts a policy that you don't like. Well, a state attorney's general or other plaintiffs will then go and find the local court that they believe will be most favorable to them. In other words, it's called forum shopping.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
So they go, if you're more progressive, you go to the Northern District of California. If you're conservative, there's this one judge in Amarillo, Texas, I believe. Texas. Who is like the favorite judge of conservatives who are looking for nationwide injunctions. And so they go running to these handpicked judges to get these national orders. And that's not really how the system is supposed to work.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
The system is supposed to provide relief But think of it like this, Tim, you could go to eight district courts, you could lose seven out of eight. But if you can just find one that would agree with you, then you can get that nationwide injunction, at least for a time. So I think this practice does need to be pulled back. But there also has to be an avenue for people to get relief.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
And that's where this class action concept comes in. And man, we're getting in some legal weeds here. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1046: David French: Schizo-in-Chief
No, we're, we're in the process of kind of moving up to Chicago for, uh, for my, my oldest daughter is starting law school and she's got two little, our two little grand babies, four and two, and we're going to be helping with the grand babies while my oldest daughter's in law school. And so, yeah, Tim, um, let me just say this. I have a recommend and I have a do not recommend.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1018: Andrew Weissmann and Patrick Gaspard: Naked Corruption
David Sachs. We can't forget David.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1018: Andrew Weissmann and Patrick Gaspard: Naked Corruption
I said that to just be.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1018: Andrew Weissmann and Patrick Gaspard: Naked Corruption
That was bad, though. We wish we had Eric Cantor. I bet Eric Cantor voted for Kamala. We should find him compared to David Bratt.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And a lot of states now have these summary proceedings where if you file that defamation lawsuit and it doesn't have merit, you can have a very short summary proceeding where the lawsuit gets dismissed and the person who filed it has to pay your attorney's fees, which is not the normal course of action. So she's almost certainly legally safe. I mean, She did not defame him in those statements.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
She's almost certainly legally safe, but that's not the question, Tim. The question is, is she going to be bullied? Is she going to be intimidated? Now we both know she's not the kind of person who's going to be bullied or intimidated. She has high quality legal counsel, unlike a lot of people who are in these circumstances.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
So she's going to be fine, but there's no question in my mind this was a shot across the bow. It was a symbol that if you are going to come after him He will come after you in some way. And I think that that, you know, that symbol does really matter. That symbol is really important. And look, defamation law has a role to play in American life.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I mean, you know, it was a defamation lawsuit that held Fox News accountable, Rudy Giuliani accountable, Gateway Pundit. I mean, we can go down the line. But abuse of defamation law is one way that powerful people try to silence criticism. And so this looks like that textbook abuse, that effort to try to intimidate somebody and silence somebody with legal threats.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, I'm so glad you raised that point, Tim, because I've had a number of people ask me, OK, wait a minute. How much can the Trump administration really target you? After all, you've got juries, you've got judges, you've got a lot of checks. That's absolutely true when it comes to can the Trump administration prosecute and convict judges? with the emphasis on and convict. It's critics.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of veterans are more qualified to be Secretary of Defense than he is. There might be, Tim, 10,000 people in the greater D.C. area more qualified to be Secretary of Defense. I'm not exaggerating. I mean, he's a TV host. For eight years, he's been a TV host. He's been a TV host and an activist, and his activism...
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, there are a lot of safeguards against that. No question. But where are the safeguards the weakest? The safeguards are the weakest when it comes to investigations. So, for example, you could have Pam Bondi appoint a special counsel to, quote, investigate Russiagate. You know, in other words, like go back over all the Durham ground or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Or you could have a special counsel to investigate irregularities in the 2020 election or some mandate along those lines. And then this person then just proceeds to pull into the dragnet. dozens of Trump critics, dozens of media figures where everyone's got to get a lawyer. You're going to be spending enormous sums of money that often people don't have.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
All of a sudden, your name gets leaked into the public as a potential target of an investigation. Then the threats come in, and maybe you don't have the resources for security in that circumstance. And So whether it's the FBI, whether it's larger main justice, whether it's the IRS, one of the things that we have seen is that investigation capability, the process is the punishment.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And so that's why the investigation powers of the federal government should be used sparingly only when there is probable cause to believe crimes have been committed. Right. Because the investigation can be so incredibly burdensome to its targets. And so, no, you don't have to prosecute and convict people to create an atmosphere of fear and intimidation.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
You can extend the investigation dragnet and literally just ruin people financially.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
This is so cheery, Tim. This is cheery. And I'm adding this question now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah. I mean, I think to me, the Kash Patel nomination stands out because you're talking about somebody running one of them. And look, there are a lot of good folks at the FBI who would resist him. There's just no question about that. Or resist extra legal demands or whatever. Yes, correct. Resist extra legal demands. Yes. They shouldn't resist him if he's offering, you know, making...
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
directives that are legal and appropriate, but extra legal demands, there will be people who resist that. There will be people in the DOJ who would resist extra legal demands for sure. But the amount of power and authority that he has over individuals who have really
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
almost sort of unrivaled ability to dig into your life, unrivaled ability to turn your life inside out and to place you in profound legal jeopardy. Because, you know, one of the things that you've seen and one of the there were critics of the Russia investigation and critics of FBI investigations more broadly have a point about is that often the FBI will dive in
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And they won't be able to prove the underlying crime that was the instigator for the investigation. But there are crimes that are then committed in the process of the investigation, among them things like lying to the FBI, etc. And so, you know, one of the things you'll see happen is they'll be investigating topic X.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
you know, according to the recent news reports was largely a failure because of his own failings. And so he ran small organizations that he's left. He hosts a TV show and his basic qualification is that he served, which good, good for him. Again, we honor that service. He served and he's super MAGA, super.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
but they get very angry at how the target of the investigation behaved during the investigation, and they'll charge what are called process crimes, crimes allegedly committed during the course of the investigation. And sometimes that's totally appropriate. Sometimes somebody does, in the middle of the investigation, try to obstruct it. They do lie, et cetera.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And then sometimes though, it's a reach, it's a stretch. And so it is just a very dangerous thing to get the FBI targeted on any given person's life. It is. And so that is very disturbing to me. I'm actually in a weird way, Tim. Hegseth is so unqualified, so profoundly unqualified.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
that in a way he's less dangerous because he'll be surrounded by, if you've ever been in rooms full of generals, these are not people who are intimidated by a Pete Hegseth. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah. I mean, it's not that he's harmless. I just think the institution of the Pentagon is not easy to hijack. Let me put it that way. But I will say this. I mean, I do think there are real security risks here. I mean, Tulsi, for example, her past is a past that would, let me put it like this, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
there are a number of things about her past that would make it difficult for her to get a security clearance. Just starting from scratch. Now, I know she's served in the military and all of this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
But if you're starting from scratch and you are filling out a security clearance form and you're talking and interviewing in that security clearance form and you're talking about your contacts with foreign powers and foreign leaders, there are elements here that Just raise concerns and raise alarms. And then when it comes to Hegseth, let's just presume for the sake of argument, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Let's just presume for the sake of argument that he had a genuine religious conversion, that he was a philanderer before, but now, by golly, he is faithful to his third wife. There's just no question about it. Well, he's faithful to his third wife now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Now. That's what I'm saying. Now he's faithful. He's faithful now. But the problem you have is he's got this long trail of of alleged womanizing. I mean, it's so concrete that his mother's letter, I mean, that letter is chilling. On the one hand, I feel very uncomfortable reading a mother's letter to a son.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
On the other hand, how bad does it have to be before a mother writes a son a letter like that? A grown son. A grown son. Yeah, this is not a high schooler. But here's the issue, Tim. How many scandals are just embedded in his past? And so how vulnerable is he to blackmail over scandals embedded in his past, even assuming he's all faithful and good now?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
How much vulnerability is there to scandal in the past, which is, you know, again, one of these issues. Adultery, for example, is against the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and he's going to be running the Pentagon. I mean, there's just so many layers to this that are absurd.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
But in a weird way, because the Pentagon is an actually really difficult beast to sort of wrestle to the ground, I worry about him less than I might worry about an RFK or certainly a Kash Patel.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, I think it's a bad idea, Tim. I really do. Let me put it this way. Here would be a good way of thinking through it. You and I are both occasional Trump critics. Yeah. We've had beef with MAGA. We both believe the 2020 election was free and fair. We both debunked election, stolen election theories. If Joe Biden offered you a pardon, would you take it?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
No, no, no. But no, it really is true. And I'm very glad you brought that up because the statement, aside from all of the alcoholism and the allegations and all of this. Yeah. One of the issues with Trump's, many of Trump's new appointees, putting aside all their scandals, if we can put those aside for the moment. Yeah, sure. A lot of them are just totally not qualified for the positions.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Because my answer is no, because I would not want any implication at all that I had done anything wrong. illegal, improper, immoral. And my view would be, you know, to Trump, you're just going to have to come after me. You're going to have to prove it. I would not accept a pardon because I wouldn't want the implication at all that I'd done anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Well, that's why I raised that very point when I talked about investigations before, because when names leak out that are being investigated or it becomes known that someone's being investigated, then that sort of worst element of MAGA, that sewer MAGA, comes out in intimidation and threats. And so, no, that's absolutely right.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Here's what I think is a lot more productive response to this Trump challenge. It's not preemptive pardons. Um, I think that that is something that there's a rule of law implications there. There are implications that if you accept the pardon, a lot of people view that as sort of accepting a level of, or degree of guilt that is not appropriate. Here's, here's what would be far more preferable.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Remember how I said the process is the punishment would be far more preferable is if you took a slice of sort of political slash cultural philanthropy and you created a defense fund, um, you created a sort of a mutual defense fund where people, regular, ordinary people who, you know, that the list, the cash Patel list that you put online, Tim, most of those folks are not rich people.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
They do not have infinite resources. And so creating a sort of a defense fund or like that capacity for people who get in the crosshairs to have attorney's fees taken care of, to have security, maybe need a deployed to their homes and,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Matt Gaetz, before he left, was absolutely not qualified. And I'm sorry, being an anti-vaccine sort of fringe nutrition activist doesn't qualify a person to become the head of HHS. I mean, this is, you know, what are we doing here? And I think that one of the things he could be doing,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
These kinds of things, I think, would make people feel far better than a pardon, which implies, even though the whole purpose of it is to foreclose the possibility of innocent people being targeted, the pardon implies a measure of guilt. It will be interpreted by an awful lot of people as an acceptance of guilt. And again, there are rule of law implications.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I think it's a lot better to create more of a defense fund security assistance for people who are targeted than it is to do preemptive pardons.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, you know, what's unfortunate is that when the Biden administration was trying to Trump-proof American democracy, It focused on elections, appropriately so, because we'd just been through January 6th, right? So I'm not, the Electoral Count Act reform is a tremendous Biden administration accomplishment. It was important for our country.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
It's going to be good for us for next 100 years that we won't have the same kind of vulnerabilities that we had in 2020. But what did not happen in the Biden administration was reform of the powers of the presidency itself. Right. very specifically around the Insurrection Act.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
The Insurrection Act is ridiculously broadly drafted to grant the president the ability to deploy troops in American cities on his own initiative when he wants to. And it's just a very scary law. But sadly, you know, I could say, hey, you know, in the remaining period, try to push through an Insurrection Act reform. I don't think Mike Johnson's going to go for that. You don't think so?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I don't think so. But I do think that there's still... People tell me he's a straight shooter.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
So it's very hard to sort of come up with what can Joe Biden do domestically in these next, you know, couple of months, aside from these pardons, which I'm against. Yeah. to really sort of Trump-proof America. But there is something overseas, I think, where he could deploy his influence.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And that is, and I wrote about this, there are more than $200 billion in Russian assets that are frozen right now. Most of it held, interestingly enough, in Belgian institutions. And that money has been frozen since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. What I urged was Biden tried to seize it, to get our NATO allies to just seize that money. Why?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Because one, it would deal a tremendous economic blow to Russia. And two, if you seize that money and transfer it to the Ukrainian war effort, you can at least try to mitigate some of the effects of a lost American support. You know, if we do pull out our support from Ukraine, there's elements of that that are irreplaceable. We just have more stuff there. than any of our Western allies.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
What he actually is doing, if all of these go through, is he's really planting the seeds of his own political demise. I mean, the majority of the people who voted for him were not voting for the MAGA extended universe. The majority of people who are voting for him were voting out of discontent with the status quo.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
We have more shells, tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, missiles that we can send to Ukraine. But if Ukraine at least has resources, it can purchase from foreign sources, you know, at least some arms to make up for that shortfall. Not entirely, but some.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
So I think that that would be a very concrete thing he could do to at least improve Ukraine's bargaining position if there are armistice talks or ceasefire talks in any way. But, Tim, we're just at this point where there's just not a lot of options. There's just not much that Biden can do.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I mean, not that are consistent with the, you know, civic reality of the American Constitution. No, I do not. Got it. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, we're in a grim place, Tim, but not hopeless. So here's what's grim, and then I'll say why not hopeless. The grim reality is that Russia has seen an opportunity and is expending enormous resources on the battlefield to try to push Ukraine back. And it is pushing Ukraine back. Ukraine has lost, I'm not going to say a lot of territory relative to the size of the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
It's a big country in Europe, but a lot of territory relevant to the last two years. They've lost like the Dakotas. We wouldn't be thrilled about that. Yeah, yeah. Not that big, but they have... And they've taken serious losses in equipment and personnel. So Russia has been pushing its advantage on the battlefield.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And if you roll in with a parade of incompetence, you're not going to improve on the status quo.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And so what I'm very worried about is that what you would have is a situation where essentially... Trump pushes the situation to where there is a ceasefire agreement that is a clear win for Putin, but is broadcast to the American people as I brought peace. And here's how you'll know if Trump has given Putin a win.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
that he will then turn around and try to talk about like, I'm the guy who brought peace. And the clear indication would be if you had some sort of ceasefire roughly along the current lines of battle, I don't think Russia will ever agree to a ceasefire while Ukrainian troops are on its soil because there are still Ukrainian troops in the Kursk region.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
You'll have a ceasefire somewhere along the line of battle, which means Russia is going to hold a significant portion of Ukrainian territory. I think that's generally a foregone conclusion in most people's minds. No matter how this thing ends, Russia is going to have some more territory than it started with in February of 2022. But what are the other conditions?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
It's a win for Ukraine and a loss for Russia if the ceasefire occurs and Ukraine joins the EU and NATO. That's a loss for Vladimir Putin. He lost that war. Even if he got a few more chunks of Ukraine, he lost the war because he lost influence over Ukraine. If he gets a ceasefire,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
With the pledge of neutrality, with the pledge that Ukraine won't join NATO, that it won't be part of the EU, and heaven forbid, deposing Zelensky as leader, then Putin won. He not only got Ukrainian territory that becomes part of Russia, he also essentially got exactly what he wanted by turning Ukraine into a satellite of Russia and not a true free and independent country.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
That's the outcome that would be a big win for Putin. And then Trump would turn around to the American people and say, I ended the war. look at my negotiating skills, I ended the war. But you quote, ended the war, that would be ending the war through what is effectively a surrender to Putin.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Well, it'd be hard to see Zelensky surviving a settlement agreement like that, a peace settlement like that.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Well, but here's where things, I said grim, but not hopeless. So here's the not hopeless part. At the very beginning of my answer, I said, Russia is taking enormous losses. It really is. The casualty figures out of Eastern Ukraine right now are just mind blowing. And it's not just the casualties, it is the loss in equipment. And a lot of folks are saying,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Putin's got until somewhere in 2025 before the equipment losses reach such a critical level, not the manpower losses. In theory, he can replace those. but he's digging through his Cold War era stocks and you just can't wave a magic wand and create a lot more main battle tanks or cruise missiles. And so he's using up these resources faster than he can replace them.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And the clock is ticking on that. And so there's sort of two ticking clocks. One is the pressure on Ukraine outnumbered, insufficient resources. And the other one is the pressure on Russia. It's expending its superior resources at a terrifying rate from the Russian perspective to try to achieve these battlefield gains. And they can't keep doing this forever. They're going to hit a critical stage.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, I'm gonna take the darker view of this, that right now what you're dealing with is the product of decades of acculturation in white evangelical spaces. So I'm somebody, I'm pro-life, I'm socially conservative, I'm evangelical, I go to church every Sunday. And I've been expelled, Tim. Like, people call me a heretic. People call me a wolf.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Even though I have not changed my views on the confessions of faith. Hey, they have beards. Like the Theobros, they all have beards.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
So it has become so acculturated within sort of white evangelical spaces that to be an evangelical in that culture is to also be Republican. It is very difficult, even for somebody who's pro-life, even for somebody who agrees with the confessions of the faith, who believes in the divine inspiration of scripture. But if you're not with Donald Trump,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
then people question whether you're even a Christian. And Tim, that sounds absurd. It makes sense. It is totally absurd. It's utterly absurd.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Unless you live in the sort of heart, the cradle of evangelical culture, you don't realize how much it's just part of the air you breathe, the water you drink. You meet a group of people who come, let's say they're at Sunday brunch after church, and there's 15 people at a table. The assumption would be that all 15 are Republicans. Ryan Burge wrote this really interesting thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
He's probably one of the best statisticians of religion out there. And he said, look, white evangelicals are Republicans. Republicans are white evangelicals. He showed a graph of... where does every religious subgroup line up with the ideology of their party? And so what he found was that black Democrats are to the right of the Democratic Party.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
White atheists are to the left of the Democratic Party. Mormons are to the left of the Republican Party. Catholics go right down the middle. Between the two. But white evangelicals were the only group that exactly matched the party. Exactly. And so there's this just melt, this union between white evangelical culture and the Republican Party.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
that is extremely powerful and extremely difficult to crack. I do think the Democrats can carve off people on the margins, but if you're saying like, here's our electoral strategy is we're gonna pry white evangelicals from the Republican party, that's really hard because they have become so culturally combined that especially in regions like where I live, that it is extremely difficult.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And look, I think people are over-reading the results of the election quite a bit. I think that at the end of the day, this was a very close election, both on the Electoral College and the popular vote. A couple hundred thousand switched votes, and this thing goes a different way. So historically, this is a very close election.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And I firmly believe that the – but for inflation and the border, Harris would have won this thing. And if Trump botches it – the next four years if there's higher inflation or if the economy is struggling, the Democrats could win again without changing anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I mean, this is a very closely divided country, but I will say that, look, it's just a simple fact that elements of blue run America are not working well and they're not working well in the most public of ways. And so unlike say rural Louisiana or rural Kentucky or rural Tennessee, you know, close to where I live,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
the dysfunctions in rural America are not front and center in American faces in the way that dysfunctions in America's crown jewel cities are. And so, including by the way, the inability to get affordable housing for crying out loud.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Absolutely not. No equivocation there, Tim. Absolutely not.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I mean, so if you look at who voted for whom, the high information voters voted for Kamala Harris, the people who sort of like are like you, Tim, that they know immediately Well, San Francisco's struggling, but have you seen Louisiana? Louisiana has some issues, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
You know, there are lots of parts of red-run America that are struggling. There's just no question about it. But... You know, people who are not paying attention to politics, it's not front and center. They have economic concerns. And then also, it's quite telling that a lot of America's urban areas had a big red shift. in 2024.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
So my colleague Ezra Klein has been saying this, I'm not, you know, I'm not saying anything brand new, but embracing an abundance agenda, a growth agenda that says we're the party of optimism. We're the party that wants to get things actually done in this country. I think that, you know, is, and expresses like optimism and hope for the country. But, but Tim, everybody overreads these elections.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah. I mean, and, and look, if you go back and you read, Commentary after 04. It will be Republicans crack the code. They're going to have the enduring majority after 06. Oh, look, Democrats crack the code. 08 Obama. It's the new era. Then 2010 Tea Party.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, exactly. You know, the phrase coalition of the ascendant, you know, so every party overreads its victories. And there are a lot of people who are sort of saying about the Democrats, well, you're engaging in too much self-loathing that the MAGA, you know, MAGA didn't question itself after 2020. It just charged on believing it had won.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
But I actually think some of this reflection and angst is healthy. You know, look. No, I do too. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Look, I monitor it. I left for a while. I came back right before the election season just because it was the election season. And it was worse than when I left it. And here's the other thing about it, Tim. It was more boring. So it's this kind of weird combination of super toxic and super boring in the same way that like a sewer is. Yeah. You know, it's you don't open the sewer and go, oh, gross.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Let me keep watching this. It's no like yuck. Let me close the manhole cover. And that's sort of how my feeling is about Twitter. And look, I agree with you. That's one of the reasons why monitors. I do want to see what sort of like what are the weirdo Christian nationalists tweeting about today or what? There is some value in that. But I have to say, as far as my job.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Twitter or social media is not primary. It's not secondary. It's not even tertiary. It is just an occasional outlet for me. And that's that. And so for me, it's a low priority. And so if I have a low priority engagement, I'm going to engage where, quite frankly, I enjoy it more. And also, I realize that for some people on Twitter, they...
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
they are desperate for us to stay because they're desperate for us to say, because they, their whole sort of business model for their whole brand management, their whole, everything that they're doing online is really focused around taking a rent, taking down never Trump conservatives or fighting the establishment or whatever. And so in a real way, they feel a sense of loss because,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
when we don't post because that's how they build their own platform. And so in a real way, like some of these people need you, Tim, more than a lot, a lot more than you need them.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I dislike the bubble. I mean, it's so funny. You know, you post something on threads or on Blue Sky that's critical of a Democrat and they come at you. And it's hilarious that after all that we've been through over these last nine years, that some sort of like snarky pile on on social media is what is what's that going to do? Oh, no.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, we're a decade into this. I don't know how much more evidence you need. But no, because social media is so below tertiary for me, I'm not as worried about the bubble because I just don't live in it much. I kind of dip in and out. And that raises, I think, a point I think is important. And I'd love your thoughts on this. Like how important is this engagement?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I think there was a point in time in which people thought that Twitter really did drive the national conversation. I don't think that's the case anymore. I think that Twitter is in particular is one of the least relevant social media platforms towards for ordinary people's lives. And so I'm not sure what you're actually getting out of it by engaging deeply.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
I think engaging to a shallow to moderate level
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Well, you know, it's deja vu all over again. Tim, we remember 2017 to 2021 when Trump was president. And all of these guys are having to defend the latest tweet. They're having to defend the latest temper tantrum, the latest scandal. And, you know, some of them just kind of duck and cover, do the Mike Johnson thing and pretend you're talking on the phone while racing through reporters.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
You go to the store. Yeah, my neighborhood is 85% Republicans.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Well, now we're going to get a little gospel, Tim. Let's do it. The bottom line is God loves us whether we merit it or not. And God's grace has been poured out upon us whether we merit it or not. And in fact, that's the entire point of the cross. The cross is... Jesus taking upon himself the punishment of our sin. He loved us so much that he took upon himself the punishment for our sin.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
But that's not really what Mitt is talking about here. I don't think he's talking about, does God love Tim Miller or David French? And do we merit his blessing? I don't think he's talking about that. I think he's talking about something that's actually, you know, a quite biblical concept here. which is, if you read the Old Testament, God does judge nations for their wickedness.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
There are times when God, in the Old Testament accounts, is very displeased with the Babylonians or the Assyrians or the Israelites at different points in time. And so I think that what he's saying is,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
look, you know, a lot of people have viewed the United States as sort of this shining city on a hill, that we're a country that's not only great as in powerful, but it's also a country that is good as in virtuous. And that's not something that we can take for granted.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And I think that adding in that sort of element of meriting God's favor, sort of it's a message, you know, to theologically conservative people who've read scripture and realize that God does judge nations and And in fact, you know, Tim, it's fascinating. That would be a very uncontroversial message in Christian circles. It would have been.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
In 1998, the Southern Baptist Convention wrote a statement on character in politicians. This was when Clinton was in trouble, not Trump, in 98, that said this, that tolerance of serious wrong by leaders... sears the conscience of the culture, leads to unrestrained lawlessness, and will surely result in God's judgment.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
So this was a sort of a conventional statement of Christian theology for a long time. That, yeah, in fact, a country can go awry and God can judge a country. So I think in that sense, I don't think he's talking at all about does God love Tim Miller or David French, depending on how good or bad we are. It's much more, wait a minute, we have a responsibility as a country to be good as well as great.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
So that's a double victory for you as a guest. I'm glad to have that calming effect, Tim. I don't have it on everybody, I've found out. I've noticed that.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Some of them make ridiculous statements like this. I want to interview the person. Okay. Release her from NDA. Absolutely not.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And if you are a believer in a holy and righteous and just God, that if a country is evil and
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Well, not only do they have agency, Tim, they have a responsibility here. They have constitutional responsibility. And so, you know, this is one of the things that's so frustrating about the moment is the
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
At this circumstance, you're exactly right to draw a distinction between responding to tweets or even responding to policy papers or positions or executive orders and things like that, and a nomination for which that senator is constitutionally obligated to give advice and consent.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And so what we're beginning to see is a morphing in the Republican Party of the idea of the job of the senator in this moment. They're really seeing themselves, many of them, not all of them, thankfully, but many of them are seeing themselves as my job is to vote for the president's team. You will hear this. The president won. He is entitled to his team.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
But that's actually the opposite of the truth. When you read the Federalist Papers and you read none other than Alexander Hamilton talking about the advice and consent roll, The advice and consent role was specifically designed to prevent the nomination of people through favoritism, obsequiousness, to where the president would only get yes men and yes women around him.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And so what we're actually talking about here is what is their fundamental job? What is their role as a senator? And the founders were very, very clear about it. And so far as I know, the 2024 election does not abrogate their constitutional responsibilities. They have it. They have that responsibility. And, you know, yes, they're they're ducking it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And it is more far more serious than ducking, commenting even on Trump policies.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Well, you know, it's so absurd, Tim, that we've spent five times more time talking about him than Robert F. Kennedy Jr., which is also unbelievably absurd, and haven't even raised the name Tulsi Gabbard. which is also ridiculous. And then let's think about this. We're actually, if we're in a world where I'm breathing a sigh of relief that Pam Bondi is the attorney general nominee now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
She would have been my worst case scenario a few years ago. And now I'm like, okay, Pam Bondi. Okay. At least it's not Matt Gaetz.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah. It does give me pause, Tim. There's no question about it. And, you know, look, I've seen some of the defenses of the tattoos that he has. He has a Jerusalem cross tattoo. He has another one that says Deus Volt. God wills it, which is a slogan of the Crusaders. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah. I don't love this term, you know, the term gaslighting, which everyone uses all the time in this era. But this is actual gaslighting because, you know, on the one hand, a lot of these Twitter people are like, oh, how dare you take umbrage at a Christian cross or a Christian saying you anti-Christian bigot.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
when anyone who spends any time in these spaces knows that those particular symbols, usually, but not always, I have to say it just like flying an appeal to heaven flag or whatever, there is a usually, but not always element to this. But those symbols, especially in this current moment, usually indicate that they are part of a particular strain of Christian nationalism. And if you doubt that,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
if you follow any of the major accounts, if you follow any of the people who are deep into this, you see this Deus Volt stuff all the time. You will see it in responses to me online. You'll see it all the time. Deus Volt, God wills it with a crusader swinging a sword. It's an image you see frequently.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
And when you combine it with the fact that he is part of a church and a denomination that has had ties to not just Christian nationalists, but Some pretty nasty racial stuff as well. Now, I have no indication that he's into that. A lot of churches in the sea, though. You know, you could choose. Boy, that again, this is the kind of thing where if you understand this world, it's alarming that.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
But you have to really understand this world. And those who don't walk into it and they'll be like, they'll be saying things about tattoos or crosses, et cetera, that have no bearing to what's actually happening in this sort of online subculture. And it's entirely possible to him. One of the reasons why I haven't really raised this and drilled down on this, it's entirely possible that he has
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Those tattoos and this completely sort of innocent, coincidental way that he belongs to this denomination, but has not been part of the sort of move to the Christian nationalist right and elements of the white nationalist right. That's all possible today.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
But the affiliation with a denomination in a movement that is one of the most Christian nationalists in the Protestant world is a bit disturbing to me. Same. I'm happy to hear that you said that. Same. And, you know, look, there are no religious tests for public office. That is part of the American Constitution. But if you have a view of the American Constitution that is subordinate to
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
to religious authority, that absolutely you can take into account.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
The actual faith itself Should not disqualify anybody, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, of course not. If they have a view that is dangerous to the Constitution, you can consider the view that is dangerous to the Constitution regardless of the faith source, if that makes sense.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
So whether if you are hostile to the American constitution, you come at that hostility through a dedication to say Sharia law, or if you're hostile to the United States constitution and you come to that through theonomy, sort of Protestant religious nationalism, either one of those sources, the core issue is, are you hostile to the United States constitution? Not are you Muslim? Are you Christian?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
But again, I have put that further down the list just because we have so many other things.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah, it's nuts, Tim. I mean, And look, I'm not going to denigrate Pete Hegseth's service. He served honorably by all accounts. That's not the issue here. I served with a bunch of guys in Iraq who served honorably as well with more distinguished records than Pete Hegseth. They're more qualified to be Secretary of Defense. Than he is.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
Yeah. I mean, this is the kind of intimidation that you've seen, you know, in a number of places, a number of spaces where somebody with superior resources is trying to challenge a critic and drag them into either intimidate them into silence because maybe that person doesn't have a lot of resources. They can't hire a lawyer. They even if they're telling the truth, they.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
just don't have the resources to fight the battle over the truth. So you might be trying to intimidate into silence, bully into silence. And this is a tactic that you often see. At one point it became so common to see sort of more powerful, larger entities trying to bully smaller critics into silence that this is a reason why a bunch of states have passed what are called anti-SLAPP laws.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: We Are in the Bad Multiverse
In other words, a SLAPP lawsuit is strategic lawsuit against public participation. It's where you are filing a lawsuit to try to get somebody to shut up.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But for all intents and purposes, they're cooperating. Trump is, as we saw with the argument over H-1B, is a much more openly oligarchic figure than he was in the first term. The populist economics are out the window except for the tariffs, and they're not very populist. In this case, populist means, is code for people don't understand how they work, not that they represent the popular will.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And the party's going to cover for him on more things, that there will be no more Trump is not making any pretenses to separate himself from his business. It's not making any pretenses that there isn't going to be a massive looting of the public treasury. And not making any pretenses that the public policy of the United States is not up for option. See the TikTok ban. See the H1Wii.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
He who pays gets what he wants. So, now the cabinet. I grouped them into... four main types. The first types are the more or less normal appointees. These may be desirable, they may be not desirable. I don't think of Marco Rubio as a man of great principle, courage, and integrity, but it's not crazy that a senior Republican with an interest in foreign affairs would be Secretary of State.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
You have to know a lot about Rubio to know that this may not be an ideal appointment, but on its face, yeah, seemingly okay. So you have the more or less normal people. Then you have, I think, the sad, weak broken people, like the Pete Hegseths.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I think deep down, Pete Hegseth is probably not an unpatriotic person, but he's got these dependencies, he's got these bad habits, and he's attractive to Trump because of his weakness and brokenness. Plus he's on TV, but there's something that Trump has this kind of predator sense for who is someone he can work through. There's a danger to that. Oh, yeah. They're dangerous, for sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But they're a different kind of danger. They're dangerous because they're tools. They're not dangerous because they're co-authors. Then you have the people who have really radical, serious personality flaws. These may not even be super ideological people, but they are people who are full of hatred and rage, and they want to work with Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And then you have the people who are actually outright committed to ideologies that are hostile to the existing institutions of the United States. That's where I put the Kash Patels and the Tulsi Gabbards. So you have a different set of problems. It also depends a lot on how big and powerful the agency is that the person is appointed to head.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The primary mission of the uniformed military is not having to listen to what the civilians who think they're in charge of the Pentagon tell them to do. And what the Pentagon dreads above all things is an intelligent, well-informed, committed, hardworking civilian, a Bob McNamara or Donald Rumsfeld.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
They're just going to have lots of ideas that the military doesn't like, and they're going to have the clout to impose them on the military. But the military loves is an absentee landlord. And Pete Hagseth is going to be that. So the information won't flow. The Pentagon will win any fight they have with Pete Hagseth. I'm guessing the Pentagon wins.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But director of national intelligence, that's a tiny little bureaucracy. And the director is going to be able to impose a lot of her will, including she can do a lot of harm just if she talks too much to the wrong kind of people.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I would say Kash Patel is the most alarming, because the FBI, although it's bigger than the Directorate of National Intelligence, it's still a relatively small agency compared to the Pentagon. And it is full of people who are predisposed to like Trump. The FBI director has a lot of small benefits in his face. He can move you. Your wife gets a promotion to another town.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The agent comes in and says, could I be moved to that town? The director can make that easier. The director can make that hard. The director can bring people to Washington and send people out of Washington. Congratulations, Mr. Constitutional Stickler. You're the new head of our Albuquerque Border Patrol office.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And we're taking Mr. Mega from Albuquerque and bringing him here to Washington and putting him or her in charge of investigating political opponents of Donald Trump. So the ability to remake the FBI without outright firing people is pretty large.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And in American criminal law, it is the investigation that is the punishment because the investigation ties up your life. Investigation costs. I mean, if you are investigated and no charges are ever brought, I mean, if you're acquitted, you might have some way to get some help with your legal fees from the government.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But if they investigate you and say, you know, you know, we spent three years, we cost you $200,000. You're right. There was nothing to see here all along. You're free to go. You don't get the $200,000 back and you don't get the hours of your life that were taken away from you back.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It's a violent society, more violent than peer nations. And there are reasons for that that Americans, I think, probably do not want to change, which is the country has just got weaker interior policing than its European peers do. I remember being in Britain at the time of one of the Conservative Party conferences and going into the police control room that was monitoring the safety of the city.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah. Well, she's also obviously cultish and gullible, which is not something you want in a director of national intelligence. And one of the challenges of these top jobs is the United States is at the center of everything. So it's surrounded by threats. Radical Islamic terrorism, domestic and international, very, very serious danger to the United States, needs a lot of attention.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
You cannot respond to that by saying, and therefore we pay no attention to the actions of Hindu nationalist groups, even though they have carried out assassinations on Canadian soil and plotted assassinations on British and American soil. That's also a threat vector and maybe a less large and important one.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But every threat vector needs to be taken on its own merits from a point of view of a general idea of the American national interest, rather than because you're a partisan for some threats because you've been radicalized in favor of them because of your dislike of others. So if you say Islamic terrorism is the only thing I'm going to be worried about, you're going to miss a lot of things.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And as you say, the pattern that you described of this seeming pattern of the New Orleans killer,
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
There are a lot of people with that, a lot of men with that life situation who, depending on the cultural influences upon them, will choose one or another ideology to express the rage that they began by torturing cats when they were a child and ended up by oftentimes killing their wife or partner and harming their children before going on to the mass killing because they're dealing with, again, this constant seething volcano that erupts in a certain number of souls.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
In government, no one ever sends you bonbons to thank you for the bad things that could have happened but didn't. All the terrorist plots that are thwarted, maybe there's a quiet medal bestowing ceremony for those, but the public doesn't know or care. There's something ironic when you say you're too focused on this thing that didn't happen. It's in the Bible.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Do you remember when Jonah is sent to preach to the city of Nineveh and he doesn't want to? And when God confronts him, why didn't you want to do it? He said, because God, I know you're a very forgiving God. And when I bring this message of doom to the people of Nineveh, they're going to pray and you're going to change your mind.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And I, Jonah, will look like a moron because I told them you're going to smite them and you didn't smite them. And what does that do for my prophetic reputation?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And looking at the feeds from all the closed circuit TV cameras that fed into the police station, they could say, you could pick out somebody that the camera wanted to follow and just follow him over the whole course of his itinerary for as long as you wanted to follow that person through one camera after another. Americans don't want to live like that. Americans are also very attached to guns.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So what you see here is Andreessen taking an ignorant but not stupid point and converting it into a genuinely stupid point. So Andreessen's making the point that industrial growth was faster when tariffs were high. which is wrong, but you have to know a little something about the subject to know that it's wrong.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Trump converts that to saying that America in 2025 is less wealthy than it was in 1890, which is just obviously moronic. If you showed the American living standard of 1890 to a typical lower middle-class person in Taiwan, they would recoil with horror. I mean, there isn't a bathroom in the whole tenement building. Not one.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Obviously, there isn't like one per child, but not one per house, not one per floor, just like zero in the whole tenement, not a single bathroom, not a single bathroom in the whole tenement. So that's crazy. So let me address the Andreessen point.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Because this is a point you hear from a lot of people who think they know something about tariffs, which is the United States appeared to industrialize very fast between the Civil War and the First World War. The tariffs were generally high in the period from the Civil War to 1913. Therefore, one must be causing the other.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So a lot of people actually are interested in this subject, which is a pretty recondite one, but have looked, why is this not true? So the first thing was tariffs mattered a lot less to the United States in the 19th century because for two reasons. One is shipping costs were very high.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So the tariff actually did not do that much to keep out many, many goods because the shipping costs already did the job. You're not going to bring a lot of things that were low margin. We're not going to move from England to the United States because they couldn't overcome the burden of the shipping costs.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The second thing to remember is the reason tariffs are bad is because they disrupt the efficiency of having a large market. Well, the United States in the 1890s was already the largest internal market in the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So even though it could have been more efficient had it traded freely with Britain and Germany and other major industrial products, Belgium, Northern Italy, the United States was already the largest internal market. So it was capturing many of the benefits.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Finally, the United States appeared to industrialize factor because economists distinguish between what they call intensive growth, that is squeezing more productivity out of the existing factors of production, and extensive growth, which is just adding more factors of production.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The United States in the post-Civil War period was adding enormous numbers of people through immigration and developing huge new iron ore fields and other sources of natural resources. A lot of that growth...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
was real but it was extensive that is by adding more factors of production not intensive by getting more value out of the factors you already have so it's just not true and what people forget when they look at they see the industrialization between 1965 and 1913 they don't see repeated severe depression after severe depression radical populist movements uprising because
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The tariffs enriched some and impoverished others. If you were a southern cotton farmer in the post-Civil War period, the tariffs made you really poor because a tariff functions not just as a tax on import, but mathematically, it also taxes the export.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
That's not the murder weapon in New Orleans. But it is a deep national commitment. And to those – I grew up in Canada. It seems unreasonable to me. I understand why if you're a farmer trying to protect your chickens, you need a shotgun. I understand why if you're a hunter, you need a rifle.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
If you're in an export-favored sector like cotton, you lose on the one hand, and then you lose again because you have to pay more for your clothes and your yarn and so on. Sorry for that last lecture, but Andreessen is not a fool. He could read a book on this subject. He really could. He could talk to some economists and know what they're talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Trump is on this subject just a fool, so there's no helping him. But they're both wrong. And if you start putting the tariffs back in place now, you will do enormous damage. Can I say one more thing? I know this is a long lecture.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Okay. So tariffs represent a very small fraction of government revenue. That's true. But where the tariffs are still in place – They impose very large costs on the people who pay them, who are typically the poorest people in society. I've written about this for The Atlantic, and Ed Gresser at the Progressive Policy Institute has done some work.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
If you are buying a pair of Prada loafers, the tariff is a negligible factor in the cost of Prada. There are still tariffs on shoes. But if you're going to Walmart and buying three pairs of the cheapest sneakers for your three children, the tariff actually is quite a substantial component of the price.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And there is this weird pattern where tariffs on women's clothing are higher than tariffs on men's clothing. Tariff on plastic plates is going to be higher than the tariff on China plates, which is less than the tariff on fine China, that you can just see there's a sex and class bias. Probably not that anyone put there on purpose, but it's more that why does the tariff get taken off?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Is it somebody has the clout to get it taken off and they didn't? But in general, in the life of the poor, tariffs are an important cost. And if you have more tariffs, they will be an even more important cost of the lives of the poor.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I think Andreessen is for real because I can see this spreading in the Silicon Valley world where they're very upset and mad at China. There has been this interest in sort of glib, no one's going to read the real articles or the real history of tariff policies in the United States. They're too important to work.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
They employ people to do the work for them, who summarize what's in the work and tell them what they want to hear anyway. So I think Andreessen really does believe that higher tariffs led to industrialization. I mean, he might get they're not efficient, but the idea that that's not true either, even his own more sort of upmarket version of the Trump point, it's not true either.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And it's just uninformed to say such a thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I don't understand why if you're an urbanite, you need to carry a personal arsenal that would impress an Afghan warlord. But – A lot of people seem to disagree with me on that. And there has been no move, if anything, over the past 20 years, gun laws have become more permissive, not more restrictive.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Well, you don't have to make it personal. So one of the great writers about trade was a man named Henry George, who wrote 150 years ago. And he has a wonderful image. He said, to introduce a tariff bill into a Congress or parliament is like throwing a single banana into a cage of monkeys. Soon they're all screeching and stamping for it and demanding one of their own.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
This is just the universal nature of tariffs. Tariffs make politics oligarchical because everybody is lobbying to get their tariff taken off. This happened to the Biden administration too. President Biden put on heavy tariffs on electric vehicles to keep out Chinese tariffs.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Our allies and friends in Europe said, wait a moment, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, they all make electric vehicles and we're helping in Ukraine. Can you do something for us? Biden didn't want to create an exception. So what he did was he introduced, or his administration introduced an exception that said, if your electric vehicle is leased, the tariff doesn't bite.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Now, high-end cars tend to be leased, the Jaguar, BMW, and Mercedes. So that was a little special favor. And not one person in a thousand knows about it. Not one person in probably a million knows about it. But it's just a little special favor that was done for friends in Britain and Germany. And those are the kinds of things that the tariff system invites. Whenever you have a law that is...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
generally oppressive. You unleash a scramble for favors. Even a generally clean administration like Biden's will, they will listen to strategic arguments like, hey, we're helping you in Ukraine. Can you do something for our electric vehicle? Trump will respond to more crude and direct incentives, but it will be the same process. The answer is don't put on the Blinken tariff.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I'm going to forget now the writer who said this, that it's a big, raw, rough, unpoliced country and violence is the price Americans pay for it. But that seems to be, that's the verdict. And there are enough different kinds of violent people that whatever sociological or political conclusion you want to draw, you want to draw that rednecks are bad, Muslims are bad.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
What's happening in Canada is a very familiar Canadian process, which is Canadian federal governments tend to last six months or 10 years. It's very rare to get a four-year Canadian government. After year 10, the roof falls in. And that process is happening to Justin Trudeau. Now, the roof falls in for different reasons. Every time, your 10 years are up.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So his reasons are special to him, but he's generally falling into 10 years. Yeah, it will be 10 years next year, the roof falls in. So what's ailing him are... an inescapable everywhere problem, a profoundly deep problem, and then a special little spicy irritant. The thing that is really crushing him is housing costs.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Canada is a much more urbanized society where the job markets are really, the biggest job markets are four cities, Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa. Vancouver is oceans on one side, mountains on the other. Building is hard. Toronto is flat, but it's surrounded by a green belt. Plus, eventually, when you get big enough, the city chokes on its own traffic.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So you can't extend in all directions because people don't care about how many miles they are from the center. They care about how many minutes they are from the center. Same thing is happening in Ottawa and, to a lesser degree, Calgary. So where the jobs are, housing is not being built in sufficient numbers. Plus, Trudeau dramatically expanded immigration to Canada.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Canada has had a successful immigration policy where the immigrants tend to be higher end, better educated, more affluent. But guess what? That means they're more effective competitors and bidders in the housing market. So there's this national housing shortage where the jobs are, and it's making everybody crazy. Young people can't move out, and that's a big problem.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Underlying that is a deeper problem, which is that Canadian productivity growth has – fallen far behind. American productivity growth in this gap has been widening over the Trudeau years. I won't take time to speculate about why that's so. Then the last thing is the special extra spicy seasoning.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Trudeau put himself at the heaven of the parade about these alleged mass graves found at Indian residential schools, lowered the fags for the longest period of public mourning in Canadian history. The story was known then by experts. It is now known by everybody to have been
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
if not a complete hoax, exaggerated to a point where they took things that were tuberculosis deaths that happened in 1895 and made them seem like mass murder that happened in 1985. And Trudeau's role in publicizing this act of defamation, the Parliament of Canada unanimously adopted a resolution self-accusing Canada of genocide.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I don't think that's why he's in trouble, but that's like the last sprinkling on the cake. 51st State. Canada's 40-plus million people over 4,000 miles. Got to be at least five states. I'll take it. Yeah. Chuck Schumer would take it. You got a deal, Mr. Trump. So what happens to the United States Senate? If you admit five Canadian states, at least. British Columbia, two Democratic senators.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Maybe the Prairies would send one of each, but Alberta and Saskatchewan are kind of conservative, but Manitoba is very progressive. Ontario is Bush conservative country. What are you going to do with Quebec? I don't think Trump likes the press two for Spanish. How is he going to like it when French is press one? Yeah. For English press, too.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
You want to draw schoolchildren are bad, schoolchildren are good. You want to draw any conclusion you want. There is a crime, a mass crime, a horrifying crime that will support whatever theory you want to propound.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
There's an old Canadian joke about what does Quebec want, which is an independent Quebec within a united Canada. So you can now deal with this Michigas because they want to be leaving, but they don't want to actually leave.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, I think, as I said, if the roof falls in, whoever is the leader of the opposition steps into the job. And this is a familiar pattern, and often with very big majorities. He did do some Trumpy things during the pandemic. He was in the vicinity of vaccine skepticism. He was very anti-lockdown. He has kept a broad church for some of the more radical elements of the Canadian right.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But he himself is a highly intellectual and well-informed person with deep knowledge of policy. He's been in politics his whole life, starting as an intern. He knows absolutely how the system works. He's the single best debater in the House of Commons. That's why he became leader of the Conservative Party. He would be very much in Camp Normie in American politics.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Definitely a conservative person, more conservative than, say, Brian Mulroney, the last long-term conservative prime minister, maybe as conservative as Stephen Harper, but very much team normal, not team Trump. And not going to be an ally on the Trump fortress America economic policy.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Canada lives, breathes, depends on open trade, and not just open trade with the United States, but open trade with the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I think the Scarborough people got whipsawed by... two things, each of them very, very sympathetic. And I want to stress, I am completely sympathetic situation. Trump watches the show. He doesn't read The Atlantic, but he watches The Scarborough Show. And everyone involved in that show is subject to a level of violent threat that most of us can hardly begin to imagine.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And at the same time, for reasons of dignity and self-respect, but also for reasons of caution and prudence, they don't want to go public with the degree of violent threat that they're under. So they're trapped between those. They are under threat in a way that I'm not. And they can't talk about it in a way that I can hardly begin to imagine. And so that's what leads to the impulse to be careful.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And again, I want to say I am not in any way criticizing them for this because I get occasional disobliging comments on social media. I've had the FBI come to my house because my name appeared in a list with many, many other people. It was some – person was arrested, but a specific stalker coming after me personally, I've never experienced such a thing. And many people on television do.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And you shouldn't have to be a superhero to be a TV journalist. I think they're called on to be quite brave, but what has happened since 2015 is different. But you can see media organizations are baffled at a time when the media industry is in crisis. You can see the Atlantic has made a couple of hires from the Washington Post because, again, I don't want to
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
make any specific comment about the Washington Post, but obviously the place is in turmoil. And we need all of these institutions. And so I think generally the lowercase d democratic camp needs to have a policy of sympathizing with each other's troubles, solidarity in the face of threat, and not being quarrelsome.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Look, how do journalists find out things? It's very rare that Deep Throat shows up under your window with the flower pots and gives you a government secret for free, if that story was even true in the first place.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Most things you find out is because somebody in a position of power engaged in a quarrel with someone else in a position of power, recruited the journalist as an ally in an internal squabble. And the journalism is not, he's not trying to serve the public. He's trying to get revenge on journalists. the person down the hall. And so that's why the information comes out. And in Trump won.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I mean, I think it's now pretty notorious that some of the people most close to Trump, Bannon, Conway, these were the most important leakers. And they were doing it in the course of bureaucratic warfare against other people in the Trump administration. So the journalists have to work those angles.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And they don't have the option of only talking to nice people because the nice people often don't know things that they need to know. And so, the New York Times, the Washington Post, other kinds of institutions like that, they're all based on a series of transactions, which means they can't be entirely a voice of conscience because their work would not be possible. So, yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It is not by having pure attitudes that you can protect the society against what has been and what is coming. This is the presidency. This is the executive branch of the government backed by House and Senate, backed by the courts. What is going to happen is really bad. And they have the point of leverage in the bigger lever to make it bad for everybody.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah. Well, as you know, because we went through this literally together on the day it happened, I've had a very terrible event in my life, and it's forced me to rethink a lot of things. A thought that kept me working through 2024 was I insisted to myself that Harris was going to win, and so I had this tape. If I could just run through the tape in November...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I'd break the tape and then I'd be free. And then I would write about other things I was interested in. I would not be dealing with all of this stuff. And it was a promise I made to myself. And I was so, I really persuaded myself that it was going to happen, admittedly, because I wanted it so badly. Not because I cared so much about Harris. I wanted out. I just wanted out.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And God didn't give me that. So now, like everybody, I have to think, what do I do? And given the
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
problems in the media given the weakness of many of our institutions if you if you have the good fortune to be at an institution that is not so subject to pressures uh if you personally have no more ambitions left um so there's there's nothing anybody can take away from you then you've got some duties here and so i'm going to try to live up to those i figuring out how to do it is going to be difficult and finding the spiritual strength to do it will be difficult but
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
In an attic somewhere, we've got an old World War I recruiting poster that belonged to a relative of my wife's. We framed it and put it upstairs. It's a picture of the British Commander-in-Chief General Kitchener in the First World War saying, basically it says in fancy language, are you going to wait to be drafted or are you going to volunteer to do the job you know you should do?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I guess I'm not going to wait to be drafted.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I contemplate it all the time. And I contemplate it all the time. I'm not here with answers. I'm here with some struggles. Yeah. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And we can't let the fuckers win. Haven't the fuckers won already? They think they have, but... Remember, there's a line of T.S. Eliot's, there's no such thing as a lost cause because there's no such thing as a one cause. There's a poem that Winston Churchill quoted during World War II, and people remember little snatches of it. And I recommend it to people if they are online.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It's called Say Not the Struggle Not Availeth. And it's a dialogue by someone who's written to somebody in despair. And the poet is saying to him, you think that you failed and you're losing. And what you don't see is it's just immediately in front of you that you're losing. And that while you can't make any progress against the waves, behind you, the currents are running.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And that's the poem from which ends, and this is the thing Churchill quoted during World War II, and not through eastern windows only when daylight comes into light. In front, the sun rises slowly, but westward look, the land is bright.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
We will walk through the streets of that city
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
If it's not too soon for this joke, it just also reveals this problem of Trump of constantly running America down. What do you mean American criminals are not the greatest in the world? I think if there was a mandate for anything for Donald Trump, it was that he would be someone who would talk up. American criminals are the best, the biggest, the most violent.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Everyone else is at best second, a distant second. Why are we importing Mexican criminals when our criminal? Anyway, that's too simple. I would say there's a social media effect. And I was thinking about this with the murder of the United Healthcare Insurance Executive. I am sure that the proportion of the human race that is born sociopathic is just a biological constant.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Go back to caveman times, it'll be the same percent as it is today. And I'm sure when the great Chicago fire erupted in the 1870s, that there were people who came down to watch the scene and cheer for the fire. There's always a certain... predictable number of human beings. But what used to happen is they didn't have a way to get easily in touch with one another.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And although they enjoyed carnage, they were aware that their neighbors thought differently. Many of their neighbors thought differently. And so they were a little more circumspect when something sad happened to pretend to feel it in the way that a normal person would feel it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The internet and social media especially have created these immediate artificial communities where everyone who would once have had the thought, I hate health insurance, I'm glad that assassin murdered a health, would have had that thought in silence somewhere or maybe shared it in a saloon with other disreputable people. Now they can all find each other. And I think they activate.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
There must be people who are sort of like near sociopathic, who have a little bit more of a conscience or at least a little bit more sense of etiquette and the appropriate, who would refrain. And now you get these movements of exaltation. And social media is mostly a good thing. The internet is certainly a good thing. But we've paid a price for it. One price is the return of measles.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And another price is the empowerment of the sociopaths.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So first, police do often have an impulse to minimize the severity of what's happened because they're trying to avoid public panic. They're also often trying to, if there was a police lapse, to minimize the police lapse that enabled it. So the natural instinct of police at a press conference is always to say it's a less big deal than it looks. And that's...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I mean, just as they shouldn't dial the dial up, they shouldn't dial the dial down. Just the facts, ma'am, as they say in the old police drama.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Second, I think FBI people do sometimes operate with a very specialized definition of terrorism that is narrower than the one that would, I mean, for most of us, you see a man who has an ISIS flag, is killing people in a way calculated to spread terror, terrorism. But the FBI may have some more technical definition they have in mind, and they're talking police talk rather than normal talk.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But when people say this makes the case for Cash Patel, it would be interesting to hear them spell out exactly what that means. One of the things that I think a lot of the MAGA people mean is if we had fewer black and women police officers.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I did. And as Trump said in a police event in his first term, and if the police go back to cracking the heads of suspects on car doors, if we could go back to policing the way it used to be, where the police knew which kind of people were to be protected and which were not, who was to be respected, who was not. We knew what a police officer looked like.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
He should be, you know, ideally a Mormon, failing that a Catholic, but certainly not anything else. Right. And if that's the message, is that the offer from Kash Patel? Or if it's what we need is a police force, a national police force that answers directly to the head of the government.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Although I think we have to take, since you're in New Orleans, a moment of horrified silence for this terrible incident. More details are known, but just the carnage just looks horrifying. And what a terrible thing for your city.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Perhaps it might have greater levels of secrecy, a secret police force that answers directly to the head of the government and that goes after the enemies of the head of the government. Is that what you're spelling? Why exactly does this? I mean, because if it means what we need is more smart people in policing, that's the case against Kash Patel.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
If it means people who follow the facts wherever they go and do their job and without fear of favor. That's the case against Kash Patel. He's been very clear. What he is offering is a politicized police force to answer directly to the head of the government. That's the offer. And with fewer minorities and women in it. That's the offer.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So spell it out and explain how such a force would have done a better job. My guess is they would have been so busy wiretapping people at Washington 501c3s that they wouldn't have any time to follow terrorists or would-be terrorists, but who knows?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
As the Daniel Penny story reminds. And again, I'm going to say something Canadian here. In my mind, one of the great evils of American life is that local prosecutors are elected. And so, of course, it is going to be true that in very liberal jurisdictions, there's going to be a strong liberal bias toward certain kinds of prosecutions. And in conservative ones, the opposite.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Because the district attorney is... thinking, I need to show some scouts, some heads on pikes of the kind that will please the voters who will matter to me, especially in my party primary. My great danger is I lose the Democratic or Republican primary to someone else who wants to be DA.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So yeah, it's probably true that in a different jurisdiction, Daniel Penny would never have been charged, but New York is not going to change its jurisdiction. So the way you deal with this problem is to say, you know what, the DA of New York There should be a professional prosecutorial service. And if you do a good job in Des Moines, you get promoted to be New York.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
That's like the premier job and people from all over the country get it. And you have very little to do with New York politics. And don't get me started on the election of judges.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Well, let me say a preliminary thing, which is I've been thinking very hard about how to cover, how to write about, how to do my work during this second Trump term. As I look back on the first Trump term, I think my overwhelming perception, assumption, was a feeling of wrongness. That here was someone who had lost the popular vote, and not narrowly, but lost it decisively.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Lost it by two and a half points, something like that. And who had been helped into office by a foreign intelligence operation. So that made the Trump presidency a very sinister and dangerous thing. But it also let the voters to a great deal off the hook. You could say this is something that was done to America, not done by America. And I think that assumption influenced a lot of the way I wrote.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And it made it easy to get drawn into a kind of atrocity, outrage, atrocity, outrage cycle. Because can you believe what these interlopers have done next? So I think with Trump, too, there's just no getting around this. The country's implicated. You didn't do it. I didn't do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But we play by rules where the majority gets to speak as if they were the country and for all functional purposes they are. And the majority was not deep enough but broad enough to houses of Congress that this is some kind of – if there is such a thing as a popular voice, this is it. And so that means – You have to respond to that in a different way than Trump won.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And that means, for my case, it means sort of taking longer, being less rapid, being more deep and not responding to everything and being more discerning about which are the real emergencies. Because one more thing has happened. But Trump won was kind of an outside hostile takeover of the Republican Party. There were lots and lots of Republicans who didn't like what Trump was doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Maybe they weren't very courageous about it, even electeds. Maybe they weren't very courageous. But if you knew them a little, you could talk to them and you'd hear plenty of dissent. What we now have is a friendly merger, which is not to say that there isn't a difference between Trump and the people around him and the more institutional elements of the Republican Party.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
He would tell story after story about how you're driving the car in the Mario Kart video game and the rocks are falling and you don't know whether the swift turn to the left or the swift turn to the right is the right move. And a lot of people are just as smart as you make the swift turn to the right and the rock falls on them.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
You happen for reasons of dumb luck to make the swift turn to the left, the rock misses you and you get another chance to play the game. So for the entrepreneurs, I think that Entrepreneurs are people who are not necessarily the most highly analytic people. They have a kind of nerve and courage and self-belief that drives them.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And as we're seeing with Elon Musk, I mean, you can be a great entrepreneur and not be an ordinarily intelligent person, which he seems not to be, at least not now. Maybe he was different 15 years of drug use ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
But a CEO is different. A CEO is not an entrepreneur. A CEO is more like a politician. than like an entrepreneur. And so the CEO has to manage all kinds of expectations. And let's say you run the 14th biggest financial firm on Wall Street. Your scope from freedom of maneuver, especially in political matters, is quite limited. You have investors who have beliefs.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
You have regulators, you have your peers, you're trying to be not too unconventional a person. And when you have a bad quarter, you don't want to have a bad quarter in some freakish individual way. You want to have the same bad quarter that everybody else did. And then you have an excuse.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
So Democrats are hesitant to blame the president for something that's obviously not his fault. In 2022, the price of beef ran up. And it ran up for because during COVID, there had been people in the beef processing plants that had to sit farther apart from one another, reducing the efficiency of the plants. There was a drought. And so beef cattle were arriving at slaughter less heavy than usual.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And so it's not surprising to me that CEO types, especially in the financial industry, who are mad at Biden for a host of reasons, would say, ah, we're going to bet on Trump because that's what all our friends and buddies are doing. No one ever got... No one ever got fired for giving money to the Republican candidate. So we'll do that. And we'll hope for the best.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And we'll hope that some wiser heads of Treasury stop the tariffs. And now they're confronting the fact that, no, it's wrong. And the tariffs may really be coming. And that's not just a tax. That could be the end of all kinds of efficiencies that make a real difference to American production.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah. Here's why the immigration piece is important. The United States had this extraordinary burst of productivity growth in the 1990s, but that productivity growth has slowed. The reason the American economy has continued to grow as well as it has is is not just because there's intensive growth that is using each factor of production more efficiently as we did in the 1990s.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
So there's extensive growth. In a country that would otherwise have a shrinking population, it has a growing population because of immigration above all. And whatever the merits of that from a social policy point of view, if you start not only stop the immigration, but send it into reverse, yeah, that's going to have an effect both on costs and consumption.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
It's going to have an effect on cost because you're taking people who were doing work taking them away. The MAGA people are very clear. They want price of landscaping services to go up. They want the price of construction to go up. But half the people in the construction industry in the fastest growing states are immigrants.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And I assume a lot of them, especially in the most dangerous work like roofing, are illegal immigrants. So again, I'm not endorsing any of this. I'm an immigration enforcer. But understand, it makes costs go up. And also, every immigrant is a buyer. They buy houses and shoes and cars. And all of that is being subtracted for the economy. And yeah, it's a shock.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Well, every country, including the United States, has programs where they do sell visas in exchange for a certain amount of investment. You don't pay it directly to the government because this is or was a free market country. Is that a golf club with dues where you pay to Bedminster?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The old idea was that if you made a $5 million investment in something that wasn't personal real estate, this is not a new thing. And many, Singapore has it, Canada has it, the United States has it too. So it's not a completely outrageous idea, but the Trump gold card comes, CNBC reported this, with a special loophole.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The United States has a regime of taxation where if you are a high net worth individual, a high income individual, and you come to the United States, you are taxed on your global income. So you don't just get taxed on what you make in the United States, you get taxed worldwide.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And that's one of the reasons why the United States is not a haven for the international criminal rich in the way that, say, the United Kingdom is, because it has this global tax system. CNBC reports that the Trump gold card is going to come with a proviso that you only will pay tax on your U.S.-based income if you get one of these visas. which is a loophole unavailable to U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
It wasn't Biden's fault. Did that stop the Trump people? It did not. There is a great novel about the rise of the Nazi, published in 1934, very prophetically, called The Operments. And I recommend it to you. And at one point, one of the characters says, our opponents have a great advantage over us, and that is their absolute lack of any sense of fairness.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
citizens, unavailable to normal green card holders, unavailable to anybody except these Trump oligarchs. And it's exactly the kind of thing that has made London the haven for all kinds of bad actors that it is because you can have your money in Russia or wherever it is and not be taxed on that. You're only taxed on whatever you earn on your U.S. savings bonds. So why Trump, who is America first.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And so anti-foreigner is going to give a certain subset of foreigners a unique tax benefit unavailable to America's own indigenous rich. That's a remarkable thought.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Look, and if you need to raise $5 million each from rich people, The United States has a lot of billionaires. You could just raise their taxes by $5 million each.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Again, I'll quote my late father's business acumen. In the days of handwritten cafe bills and European cafes, he had this line. He would say, if they were just bad at math, you'd expect half the mistakes to be in my favor. So Trump is bad at math. I mean, he's really bad at math. And it's not true that half the mistakes are in the customer's favor. All the mistakes are in his favor.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And whether he's lying about how much aid was provided to Ukraine, whether he's lying about the impact of these things, that, I mean, he's a con artist and he sells these cons. But I think the back in mind is there is somebody who said to him, I would like to come to the United States. I will pay $5 million for that privilege if I don't have to pay tax on my global income.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And Donald said, and Don, there'll be something in it for you too. And Trump said, that sounds good to me. But everyone else in America pays tax on their worldwide income. If you tax the golden visa people on their worldwide income, you're not going to sell all those millions of golden visas. They want the tax benefit that comes with the visa.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The crypto industry is at bottom. It's a regulatory arbitrage bet. What is crypto? American law says if you're a security, you're regulated by the SEC, who have lots of expertise and a kind of a very tough attitude to fraud. If you're a currency,
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
you're regulated more lightly because I mean, obviously, you know, if the Dominican Republic wants to issue a new currency, that's not going to be regulated by an American financial. And if you want to trade Dominican Republican cruiseros or whatever they are, you know, they're, they're issued by the Dominican Republic.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And I think you see in the beef versus the eggs, that dynamic at work. The Trump people knew it wasn't Biden's fault. It was, you know, there was a pandemic. The people in the processing plants had to sit farther apart. A lot of the processing workers got sick and there was a drought. So the beef cattle were less heavy. It wasn't the president's fault that the price of beef went up.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
That's, that's your, so it's, it's regulated not by the SEC in a more lightweight. So the reason it's called cryptocurrency is so that it's not regulated by the SEC, but nobody who invests in crypto is investing in it in order to go to another country and buy things. They're investing in it because they think it's a security. It's an investment. It's a store of wealth. Unless they're criminals.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
They are using it for currency if they're criminals. But if they're non-criminals, they are buying a security. And they were afraid. The reason that the crypto bet so heavily on Trump against Biden was they were afraid the Biden administration was going to say, you know what, this is obviously security.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And it needs to be regulated with proper kinds of disclosures and statements of risk and conflict of interest statements by management. And all the fancy things that got us into trouble in 2008 have to do. Now, crypto should have to do it. And the crypto was, no, no.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
While we want the United States government to bail us out and buy vast quantities of crypto, we do not want to tell people the things that we would have to tell them if we were regulated as a security.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And tragically, the president of Argentina on whom so many hopes rested. I had a lot of time for him and I think he may have been suckered in this Libra coin thing he got mixed up in.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
But, you know, it may be the economic reform in Argentina fails again this time because somebody got I think in this case is the president's relatives who are behind it, got got him involved in a dubious meme coin venture and discredited him.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I think there's also something, which is the very thing that makes him such an outlier in Argentina. in Argentinian politics is he's a little crazy. And until now, it's worked for him that he wasn't trapped in the usual self-destructive patterns of their politics. But the same thing that makes him a little crazy makes him unable to do the mea culpa.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Or to put some discipline on his relatives and say, you know, this is a chance to turn this country around. You will all behave yourselves. And if I succeed, believe me, you will all be sitting on the board of the Chase Manhattan Bank and making a lot of money in very respectable ways. Just cool it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
That didn't stop them. Democrats know it's not the president's fault. The price of eggs is up, but it does stop them. I don't know how you do politics in a country where people respond to price cues so intensely. And one party says, we're going to be responsible about economic causation. And the other party says, the hell with that. No, we're not.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
my line on it was the strategic Bitcoin reserve was as a device to respond to the looming greater fool shortage in the United States, because these coins are sold to greater fools. Eventually you run out of greater fools and people ask, what can I do with this thing? And the fact that Warren Buffett has always said, stay away is, is a warning that maybe you should stay away.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Right. And also the fools in this case, don't get a choice that if you can The people who will make this decision are probably not fools. They're probably in on the con. Yeah, that's true. So if you can infiltrate the government with people who have large crypto holdings themselves.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Which has happened. Not only make favorable rulings like the SEC will not regulate our industry. I think it's so telling that Trump is about to reenact the plot of Goldfinger at Fort Knox. And meanwhile, what he's actually going to do is give away, not the gold, but the actual money of the United States to buy these stupid Bitcoins. Yeah. For what?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
What is the problem to which a Bitcoin is a response? The strategic response. The United States holds reserves of gold and euros and yen because in case there's suddenly a fluctuation in the movement of the dollar and you need to go buy dollars, you need to buy the dollars with something. So you buy it with gold.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
But the idea that you're going to do this with something as mercurial and unpredictable as Bitcoin is it's not a currency because currencies don't move up and down by a thousand percent.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
It's getting pretty high because he has understood the elements of power. in a way that he didn't in the first term. And I think he's also come to grips, as he did in the first term, that he's not a hugely popular president. So a lot, in term one, he was lying. You think so? Yeah, I think so.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Hey there. I'm just back from almost a month in Austria, so now catching up with the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Because otherwise, in term one, when he was doing all that, he didn't bother making sure that the military and the FBI were on board. Because he had that big map of how, you know, of the 3,000 counties in the United States, all the ones with tumbleweed voted for him. And all that stuff about the crowds. That was, I think, a lot of the narcissist reassuring himself that he is beloved.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And if you're beloved, then you don't need the violent seizure of power. His plan to corrupt the 2020 election came up really, it was done very much at the last minute. He didn't start working on that on the first day in office, like a different kind of, you know, Putin started working immediately on destroying Russian democracy. Trump,
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
postponed and postponed and did it at the end in a very careless way. I think you're now seeing a much more systematic effect with buy-in, grudging or not, from Republicans to say, what are the power ministries? How do you secure them? And the FBI is the most extreme. I mean, it's incredible they confirmed Kash Patel.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Dan Bongino is now up and he, I mean, I've had run-ins with him and I'm sure you have. I mean, you wouldn't hire him to be Deputy Sheriff of Mayberry. He's erratic.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah. I mean, I've personally witnessed him lose his cool. And I won't tell too much about that because my colleague Jonathan Shade is writing that story for The Atlantic. It'll be up shortly. But I've personally witnessed it. He's not someone who should be in charge of men with guns. And the other thing about the FBI as compared to the military is it's a relatively small bureaucracy.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And the FBI director has a lot of power to ruin people's lives in his work for him. Because as Pat Hill is doing, when you say we're moving 500 agents to Huntsville, Alabama, what you're really giving is of the 500 agents, suppose 400 are in serious relationships or married, you're forcing a large proportion of the 500 to make some important career choices as to whose career will be followed.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And by sending people to Huntsville, you can put a lot of pressure on them to leave the agency altogether and create vacancies and for you to hire more politically malleable people. And I think that's a big part of what Patel has in mind.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Let's hope that that's a romantic relationship, because if not, this was a long ago, but there was a serious scandal in the District of Columbia when I first got here, that the chief of police was living in this 3,000 square foot condo in a fancy building of the Navy Memorial that belonged to somebody like this. And they were not romantic partners. It was just a bribe.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And eventually the whole thing came down and this chief of police had to resign. But The head of the FBI should not be accepting free stuff from people.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
You have to separate Cain in one way from some of these other people, because he did have a very distinguished career. And he does seem to have been, unlike Kash Patel, where, again, you wouldn't let him run a store. This guy, he was a very admired three-star general. It's also true that being a three-star general is a very different job from being a four-star. general.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
A four-star general is managing this giant global supply chain. We assume that they are personally courageous because they were once one stars, two stars, and three stars. But four-star work doesn't take a lot of personal courage and shouldn't. I mean, you're sitting in an office building, you know, moving billions of units of stuff around the planet. And it's a political job.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
What you want in a four-star is, you know, there's a reason that they never made Douglas MacArthur chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. brilliant and brave as he was. He was unstable. They made George Marshall because, you know, he was stable. And those are important qualities.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And the most important thing in that job is the ability to look at the president and say, no, sir, that would be illegal. Sir, may I have your order in writing? And then I will give you my resignation in writing, sir.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I would encourage people to watch that clip. where Trump is asked, did you call Zelensky a dictator? And he said, did I? I don't remember. Did I say that? Because that story is being played as if he's senile. But when you watch his face, he's like daring the media to call him on it. Like he knows perfectly well what he did. He is toying with somebody. He's enjoying power without responsibility.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
He's enjoying the cruelty of what he said. And Trump, I think, is in some ways mentally deteriorated from the man he was 30 years ago. But he is not out of his mind. And you need to take that seriously into account. The deal, it's so shocking and upsetting. Because now the Ukrainians have done a good job of rewriting this deal, so it doesn't mean very much and it's not as predatory.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
But when this war is won, it will be the responsibility of the developed world to collectively find ways to finance the reconstruction of Ukraine. And that's going to be the World Bank, I think, estimated the other day more than a half trillion dollar project. Over many years, but a half trillion dollars. And so some of the money will need to come from frozen Russian funds.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Some of it will come from the European Union. Much of it will, but some will have to come from the United States if we're to get the Europeans on board. And the thing everyone needs to understand as they gird for this is this is going to be a fantastic investment, as Marshall Aid was, as the reconstruction of Eastern Europe was in the 1990s. You get the money back immediately.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
in richer customers, better trading partners, secure allies. You get it back. So you get it back to the point where if you were to tell people how much the Marshall Plan costs, they wouldn't believe how little it was and what you got. In return, the safe, secure world where, by the way, Americans don't have to learn foreign languages because all their allies learn English instead.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Thank you very much. And we can use Visa in Bangkok. It'll be worth it because wise countries have a generous long-term view of their economic interests, not a predatory view. Trump thinks like a bandit out of the Middle Ages. You go in there, seize the stash of coins, and run out again. And the idea that real...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
wealth is built by investment and long-term contracts and building rules of law and from products that don't exist yet, but will in 30 years. Some Ukrainian entrepreneur who's like in a cradle is going to invent and sell to the world. Like whoever in Denmark invented Ozempic, you know, that's billions and hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth created by some Danish chemist.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The test of any Trump deal in Ukraine. is, are there not just meaningful security guarantees, but foreign bodies? And whether that's couched in NATO terms or not. There's an old joke that was told about the Cold War, but it actually dates back even earlier. It's before the 1914 war. The British and the French were doing defense planning.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The British general asked the French, how many British soldiers do you need to defend northern France? And the answer was, just one. We'll get them killed in the first five minutes. the same way. That was how many Americans did it take to defend Germany from the Soviets? Just one. Just one. But we need to know you're there.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
So whatever the guarantee is, this idea of British and French troops in Ukraine, that is the test of success. And backed by
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
some American presence to say, you know, the Russians aren't there for territory, but whatever the ceasefire line is, whatever the line of control, whatever is free Ukraine, that part of Ukraine needs to be a place where investors can invest hundreds of billions of dollars in security.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And that means they need to know there is a tripwire there, backed by Britain, backed by France, backed by the United States. If the Russians ever try this stunt again, They're going to feel the wrath of the world, not indirectly, but directly. Yeah, I'm sorry. You said the Russians aren't there for territory. The Russian attack on Ukraine is not the Trump fantasy that they want.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
This is about taking control of some one fifth of Ukraine. That's nonsense. They were there just to destroy Ukraine as a sovereign entity. So if Ukraine keeps sovereignty over 80% of its territory, that's a win for the West.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
If Russia can find ways to sabotage and corrupt Ukrainian sovereignty by, for example, saying that Russia insists that Ukraine have an election, that is not a Russian decision to make when the Ukrainian, if they are able to write that into the schedule and they have corrupted and weakened Ukrainian sovereignty. And that that's, that's a loss when you say, can I be optimistic?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I think there are things you can say about the Trump administration that are going to be positive. I've always believed that there are gifts of Trump, that he forces, he's forcing a deepening commitment to democracy in the United States. He's, you know, we are having to think about institutions in a way we never did. Why did Congress give all that power over trade to the president?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Years ago, an acquaintance of mine who is a literary person, hard up for money, as a gag, wrote a kind of romance novel under pseudonym and sent it to one of these generic pulp Boone and Mills kind of things. And he was hoping to pick up $1,200. And he sent it to the company. And he got back a rejection letter that said, if you want to write this stuff, you have to believe in it. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
People have been warning that that was a danger for a long time. Now we can see. Maybe we'll fix it. Should Europe have a more serious approach to its own security? Yes. Yes. And they're going to be forced to do that. Those are inadvertent gifts of Trump. But it can't be at the expense of the brave people of Ukraine who have sacrificed so much for their freedom and who are winning this war.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Well, this is based on the sad career of someone who's not well-remembered now, but Richard Nixon's Secretary of State William P. Rogers. So Rogers was a very distinguished lawyer, both in public life and private life.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And Nixon enticed him to be Secretary of State with the promise that he would have large authority over the two most important issues of the day, the Vietnam War, winding it down, and peace in the Middle East. And then Nixon... created a secret channel via his national security advisor, Henry Kissinger.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And so while Rogers thought he was negotiating the end of the Vietnam war, Henry Kissinger really was negotiating the end of the Vietnam war. And, The war had not gone well. Kissinger didn't get very good terms. And so the final agreement meant basically the death of South Vietnam and the abandonment of the American commitment. And guess who got to sign that agreement?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Not Henry Kissinger, but William P. Rogers. The guy who had had no power became the fall guy for the disaster. And the peace said, this is going to be the fate of Rubio. What Rubio is doing with Lavrov is not the real negotiation. The real negotiation is being done by, I don't know, Donald Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Tucker Carlson. Barron, maybe. Barron, Elon Musk, some sinister shadowy figure.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
So, if you're Rubio, who is, for whatever his weakness of personality, you know, who is a patriot and has had an amazing career and does stand for good and important principles or does articulate. Yeah. Does articulate good and important principles. Yeah, there you go. Let's not overdo it. Yeah. But does he want to be the man whose signature is on the cellar of Ukraine?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah. PEPFAR, it originated in the Bush administration. One of its leading advocates was someone who's now deceased, Michael Gerson, the head of the speechwriting office. You may have known him. Very devout and committed person. And Bush is entangled in the Iraq war. It's not going well.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And it's one of those moments where the president, who's always described as the most powerful man in the world, doesn't feel very powerful at all. He can't make things happen. And this small cadre in the Bush administration said, let's just do something good. hundreds of the penny in the national budget, a figure that no one, it won't even show up.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
It's not even a rounding error because it's too small even for that. But let's go save tens of millions of lives from the HIV epidemic in sub-Saharan Africa. It will cost us nothing in relative terms. It's a good thing. It's an exercise of presidential power. And when George W. Bush goes to meet his maker, And God says, what did you do with this power?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
He can say, well, this is the thing that's going to head the list. This is what I did. And here are 10 million souls beside me to testify that I made a difference. Like, how can you begrudge that with the vast wealth and power of the United States? It's nothing. And yet it means so much.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
But there's just a structural infirmity because event in the past 24 hours that Trump people have done this big rollout of the so-called Epstein files, which are, of course, things that have been available on the Internet for a decade. There are no revelations. You know, we know that Bill Clinton flew on Epstein's plane. We know that Trump and Epstein were very close friends.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
We know nothing today that we didn't know 48 hours ago. There's a big hullabaloo of some of the revelations. most shameless people in Trump world. But I don't want, that's not my point. My point is this happened on the very day when thanks to high level intervention by people in the Trump administration, the two Tate brothers, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The worst kind of sex abusers, sex traffickers, were released from a legal process in Romania to fly to the United States as political asylum. They're both US citizens, so they have a right to enter the United States, but they were under a travel ban in Romania because they were facing trial for so many charges. They also have charges pending against them in the United Kingdom.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Good. How was the ski snow quality? We were very lucky with the ski snow quality. But we were escaping the month of February and on a ski hill, my wife and I and two little dogs.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
They got their freedom because of a personal intervention by Richard Grinnell, who met the Romanian foreign minister at the Munich Security Conference and said, I, meaning the United States government, take a great interest in the fate of the Tate brothers.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
This is the same Richard Grinnell, by the way, who's now president of the Kennedy Center, where he's planning a big Christmas extravaganza to put the Christ back in Christmas. So Christ, sex trafficking, we can have both. So the point is not that the Epstein thing is a hullabaloo. The point is the same people who think that Epstein is the worst criminal in America believe that the Tate brothers...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
who did the same and worse because Epstein, at least as far as I know, was never violent. The Tate brothers were. I think the girls were younger.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah. Okay. But the Tate brothers involved minor girls too. And direct personal violence, which they talk about, they used beating as a tool of control, not just mind games. And you're right. We are splitting hairs and they're both bad. But there's no one who defends Epstein. There are people who defend Tate. And the Tate brothers escaped justice because of this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And by the way, when they arrived in the United States, one of the Tate brothers, I forget which, told reporters that they gave credit to the personal intervention of Barron Trump in their case. Which, if true, and it may not be true, they're big liars, if true, is even more astonishing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And step back to something you said a minute ago. You're right, no one cares any about hypocrisy. You just have to do it. So in this vast country, parties need complicated, they don't need complicated messages, but they need complicated message groupings. Look, I confess, I'm an out-of-touch East Coast elitist. I know the price of eggs because I looked it up on the Walmart site.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I don't even like eggs that much. So that's not a message that's actually going to change my vote. I'm about democracy. I'm about Kash Patel and anger management problem, Don Bongino running the FBI. I'm about the predicates being put in place for what looks like some kind of military backing of the president if he defies a court order. That's my issue. And me and my neighbors here in
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Ward 3 of the District of Columbia. We're going to be motivated by that. And we're going to get to the polls at 5 a.m. and stand in the queue. And we're going to vote for school board, too, while we're there. You talked to us one way. The people who decide this election care about the price of eggs. And you have to talk to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And this is a thing that the Trump people did with a lot of people for whom English was not their first language. New to the country. They did actually kind of politics in some ways the right way, which is, you know, we're going to go into this neighborhood.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
People weren't born here, may not have English as their first language and want to talk to them about what they care about because their votes count, too. That's like democracy done right if it weren't done for such evil ends, ultimately. But the process is done right. And that's something that those who want to save democracy have to do, which is, you know what?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah, there are people in Ward 3 in D.C. who know that it's not literally the president's fault the price of eggs is up, but the people who feel the price of eggs don't know that and don't care. So you just go there every day and you say, when will Trump eggs reach a dollar an egg? Because right now they're 50 cents an egg. They're on their way to a dollar an egg.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Trump, Trump, egg, egg, Trump, Trump, dollar an egg.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I guess dealer's choice on which one you want to start with. Let's talk about eggs, because I have a serious point to make about that. It goes to a big structural problem in American politics. The price of eggs has almost quadrupled since fall. If you're in the restaurant industry and you're buying high-end eggs, you're looking at $8 a dozen.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I'm not a Christian. I'm moderately, but not super religious, but I've had the privilege of knowing some intensely religious Christians and the ones who really mean it have always responded to revelations of bad behavior in high places by saying that the Christian response to that is to not talk about it, to say, what have you done? What have you done? Search your soul and you will find there
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
greed and hate and envy and resentment and anger and lust and all all the things that are christian sins we're not here as the morality police for others jesus talks a lot about this right like uh you know cast the first stone you know like the whole point of the jesus teaching is you do not criticize others you criticize yourself and so if they were saying look this is that bill clinton or donald trump or the tape brothers these are occasions to remind people to improve their own behavior
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
and just check their own stoles and understand, by the way, that their behavior necessarily is going to be imperfect, disrefallible. That would be a very holy thing. On the other hand, if they're going to be police, then you have to be... The rule can't be that if you... Give us free parking for our megachurch and give us the zoning abatements we want. Then you get to do what you like.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
That doesn't seem like a great combo. No, I think that's right. I think that is good dispassionate analysis of those factors. The tariffs, I think, are the most important. Well, you'll notice that the stock market, which briefly went up, the U.S. stock market is now has given up all of its post-Trump gains as the stock market. It doesn't want to believe that Trump could be serious.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
If you go to Walmart in the DC area, it's about $6 a dozen. There are some at $5.97, but a few at higher than $6. Now, Everybody listening to this podcast, every Democratic politician in Congress knows this isn't exactly Trump's fault. There's an avian flu. The herd of egg laying chickens has been culled and there's a genuine economic shortage.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I mean, tariffs, the tariff policy is so stupid. So destructive. The stock market and the people on it don't want to believe that any of this could be real. And when Trump talks about it, he sounds like such a moron to educated people. And they think, oh, even if he says these crazy things, the Secretary of the Treasury will throw his body in front of the tariff train and save us all.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And maybe that will happen. Trump did a lot of tariffs in first term. He started late. He started in 2018, not right away. This time he's starting from the beginning. And of course, the economy reacts not just to the imposition of tariffs, but to the threat of tariffs. If you have a $10 billion investment to make in a new facility, how hard are you going to look at Mexico?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Because you're going to you're going to think, you know what? OK, they haven't laid heavy tariffs on Mexico yet. But Trump's made clear that he is not going to abide by the terms of the trade treaty with Mexico that he signed in his first term. He now says that treaty was signed by the stupidest people in America. And he's man, that's the point. Broken clocks and all that.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
So your $10 billion investment decision is going to be held hostage to the risk that these tariffs might be coming next week. You certainly won't make that decision hastily. I don't think people understand that a tariff is a tax, but it's a tax with much greater potential for harm than other taxes. Because other taxes just take money out of people's pockets. Surprise demand.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Tariffs go to the efficiency of the productive process.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Okay, let me try this two ways. So first, like you, I'm not an especially successful economic actor, but my late father was. And he started with literally nothing and built a considerable business before he died. One of his sayings was, God blesses you by making you lucky, and then he curses you by making you think you're smart. And
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Look, everything that you hear about a deportation raid is not a Trump thing. You know, Biden deported a lot of people. Deportations happened a lot under Obama. Is that true?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
I don't recall. About deportations? I don't recall seeing that on Fox, but Obama deported more people than Trump did. You know, so deportations do happen and should happen in a nation that has laws regulating the border. So don't look at every deportation story and think there's Trump. No, Deportations happen and should happen in a responsible and reasonable way.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
The question that we have and the question that I have is, will he conduct immigration enforcement internally in a responsible and reasonable way? Because we do need immigration enforcement. But massive dragnets designed to sweep up millions of people invariably and inevitably happen. violate the civil liberties of other people at scale. And so this is what I'm looking for.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
How big of a dragnet is being deployed? How many innocents are being swept up in it? What is happening with dreamers, for example? These are all questions that I have.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Right. I mean, that's what I mean by the dragnet approach. You know, we do need deportations. We do need deportations that begin with the most dangerous people and work down from there. But we do not need mass scale dragnets that violate civil liberties. And also, we need deportations to be undertaken carefully because there's economic disruptions attached to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
You know, Trump is treating all of this as if he can just kind of come in and order inflation to go away, order immigrants to get out of the country. I mean, as if he can just come in and start declaring things. And he can't. We saw the birthright citizenship order has already been blocked. Like it's already not in effect unless Trump chooses to defy it. So it is not the case.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Although I will say, Tim, this is one of the ways, and I've been saying this in interviews over the last couple of days, this is a way that Trump exploits civic ignorance. Is that he comes in and he issues all of these big sweeping declarations. And a lot of people in MAG are like, look what Trump did. He fixed things.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
No, most of what he did was declare bankruptcy like Michael Scott did in the office. He's just declaring stuff. He's not actually changing stuff. And some of the executive orders will actually change things. Some will actually be lawful. Others are not going to do one darn thing. Some of the executive orders that do change things are only going to change things on the margins.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
I mean, he's magnificent. And, How dare you? What kind of NBA fan do you think I am? I've seen that shot 200 times, Tim. I mean, come on.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
He really hasn't done, Tim, that much that's truly significant yet, aside from the concrete actions that are in his power, like the pardon, like the removal of security clearance.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Yeah, so I have really mixed feelings about this, Tim, because there is no question that elements of DEI have been, in higher education, in the government, have been toxic and destructive and unlawful in their own ways. creating race-based classifications of employees that contradict the Constitution, contradict Supreme Court case law.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
So there is very little question that you can point to incident after incident in the broader DEI world that is illiberal, that is oppressive, that is unconstitutional, that is discriminatory on the basis of race, ironically enough. Now, this isn't the federal government.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
But if you look at this Michigan, the Times had this incredible reporting not long ago that the University of Michigan spent $250 million on DEI initiatives. Didn't increase the percentage of black students.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And then it was so incompetently done that when October 7 kicked off, the Biden administration had to come in and rebuke Michigan for failing to uphold its Title VI requirements with Jewish students. So you spend $250 million and what you get out of it is no improvement in black enrollment and a lot of anti-Semitism. That is unacceptable. So there are elements of DEI that are absolutely toxic.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
There is no question. But at the same time, There are elements of DEI that I don't think are, that are not only not toxic, but I think important and prudent for a country that is wrestling with centuries of racial discrimination. So, for example, I was talking to somebody the other day who said, all DEI is horrible. And I said, I hear you on the race discrimination.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
I hear you on, say, for example, discrimination against Asian Americans in higher education to Really, in a way that just ended up making more room for white students a lot of the time. I hear you on on that. But what about, say, the Texas 10 percent rule that says if you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class in high school in Texas, you can go to a Texas college?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
public school and the person thought about that for a minute. He said, that sounds good. I said, that's a DEI initiative. It's just one that's lawful and much more prudent than blunt race-based classification. And so there is a difference between bad diversity efforts and good and necessary and proper diversity efforts. And what Trump does is he doesn't say there's anything bad or good.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
It's all bad and sweeps it all out the door and then initiates on top of that a witch hunt. Now, the question that I have is, while he has a lot of authority over the federal government, he can't repeal Title VII. He can't repeal protections for disability. He can't repeal protections for age discrimination. Those are all statutory and apply to the federal government.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
What's he going to say that if somebody is responding to an age discrimination complaint, that's a DEI and has to go or responding to a race discrimination complaint that that's a DEI and it has to go.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
There's the other thing, Tim, that is hovering all over all this that is just gross. And you've seen this. I've seen this. If there's a bunch of white dudes in a room, there's no DEI, right? And that's a meritocracy. That's the meritocracy. But anytime they see a black public official, an LGBT public official or anything, well, that's DEI and it's not meritocracy.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
That direct, blunt, gross assumption that any person who is in the category of not white or mainly not white and male is sort of evidence of the failure of meritocracy isn't just subtly racist, Tim. It's really racist. It's really racist.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Yeah, replacing DEI with something that looks more like a Gilded Age boil system is not an upgrade. It's not an upgrade.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
No, no, no. That's legitimately. Now, I will not say that it's the rule of law has never been in a worse place in the United States. I mean, we have had worse times in the past, but in my lifetime, so I was born in 1969.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
What we're beginning to get to, Tim, is this point where there was a broad agreement you would have, really from center left over to center right to definitely right, that there were problems in the DEI superstructure. I think there's a lot of agreement on that point. You're going to get people who voted for Kamala Harris who are going to say that.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
You're going to get a lot of people who are going to say that. But then that is a different thing than saying diversity efforts, period, Of any kind are out, are done. Let's say you have the same standard for everybody, but is it DEI to go and affirmatively recruit in historically black colleges and universities? Is that DEI? Yeah. I mean, to these guys it is for sure. Right, exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
That's what I'm talking about because essentially their vision of meritocracy is really, I see lots of white faces, right? They then start to worry if there's no meritocracy, if it's not all a bunch of white faces. And that's what's happening here. And you see it time and time again.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
in my lifetime, which is entirely in the post-civil rights era, and my adult lifetime has been dominated by the post-Watergate reform era, good government reforms, and to see what we saw over the first week of the Trump presidency. And it was really two things specifically, Tim. It was the pardons of the January 6th rioters
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
If a person is coming forward and they're a police chief and there's just been a big shooting or something like that, and they're black, you see all the usual suspects online saying DEI, woke. But if it's a white person getting up there... Crickets, silence, because that's the default acceptable evidence of meritocracy.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And as I said, it's not just a little racist, it's really racist to make those kinds of assumptions.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Yeah. I mean, look, again, you said it well. I mean, on the idea that there are some limitations to the growth of the government or the Targeted hiring freezes. Yeah, and that's something that intelligent hiring freezes, intelligent pauses, I would absolutely be in favor of. There is bloat in the government.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
But to actually do something about it in a way that's constructive requires nuance, requires knowledge, requires understanding that some jobs are really, truly important, have to be filled. Some jobs are redundant and don't necessarily need to exist. That requires an intelligent, thoughtful approach, not this sledgehammer. I'm constantly reminded by this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Did you ever see the John Mulvaney skit, There's a Horse in the Hospital? Oh, yeah. It's really good.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
He's as confused as you are. The horse is back in the hospital, man. You know, it's funny because there's this thing that happens where MAGA really has boxed in a lot of people who are critics of the status quo, but realize that MAGA is the wrong answer for it. So in other words, if you say the government is too large and inefficient, Well, then why aren't you supporting MAGA?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And the commutations of the most violent of them and the most seditious combined with and I don't think enough people are paying attention to this, quite frankly, the revocation of security clearances for John Bolton, Secretary Pompeo and others. And so what that does, you have to look at these things as a package. You can't break these things out. What that said is if you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Well, because that MAGA answer to that would make the problem worse. You know, so we have to be careful to sort of say, well, I'm not defending the status quo. There are things that need to be done in the government or there are things that need to be done about DEI. But this is not the answer. This is in many ways will be worse than the problem you're attempting to solve. And again,
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
What MAGA is very clever about doing, and I think this is one of the reasons why Trump won, is when you oppose their solution, they cast it as you're denying the problem. And those are not the same thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Well, and another thing, you know, when you think about why did Trump win, right? What he's doing right now is fan service for MAGA. Right. This is everything MAGA dreams about. This is Twitter's fever dream right now. This is Trump. David French is crying.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
That's a win. That's a win. They're just swimming in our tears and loving it. So this is all MAGA fan service. But this is not why Trump won. If you looked at, I think it's fascinating the difference between Trump's rallies and Trump's commercials. Trump's rallies were, Tim, you know, you've probably been to about as many as anybody. Suffered through them.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
It is like going to Comic-Con where it's all of the extended universe grievances, right? It's just all of the MAGA grievances.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
It's wild. And then, The commercials, low inflation, low unemployment. And so to the big, huge public, he is broadcasting sort of good government. To his MAGA people, he's broadcasting vengeance and rage. So the first few days have been vengeance and rage, but he's going to have to deliver on these other things. And what I don't think MAGA...
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
understands or cares about, to be honest, is a lot of the things that he does in service of vengeance and rage are actually going to inhibit his ability to do that bigger job for which he was elected. And look, you won't see his approval rating budge that much early on. There's just massive amounts of people check out. If you took 100 people off the street and asked them about the pardons
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And they're honest. Let's say they're on truth serum. How many do you think have even heard about the pardons? Who knows? 40% maybe. 40% maybe on the high end, right? So it takes a while for this stuff to kind of go through the system.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
break the law on Trump's behalf. If you commit violence on Trump's behalf, if you harm police officers on Trump's behalf, you're good. You're good. Because the key of all of that wasn't violence. It wasn't rioting. It wasn't cracking heads of police officers. It was on Trump's behalf. So if you're operating on Trump's behalf, you're good. Now, if you oppose Trump, think about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
But a lot of what he's doing right now by selecting incompetent people, implementing big sledgehammer policies when scalpels are necessary, all of that's going to inhibit his ability to do the main job. And there will be a price to be paid for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
The way I would put it is I think that the world does not view Trump as unpredictable any longer. They view him as manipulable. OK. And so what's unpredictable about being manipulable is you don't know who's going to be better at manipulation. And so sometimes you don't know how a manipulation is going to turn out. But Trump is a manipulable person.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And I did this really interesting interview a few weeks ago. And the point in this, I was doing a Ukraine war update for The Times and I was interviewing Fred and Kimberly Kagan, who've from the Institute for the Study of War, who probably have more knowledge of the actual state of the conflict than anybody outside the Russian, Ukrainian, and American militaries.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
I mean, they follow this very closely. And they were saying something really interesting, and that is the Ukrainians are actually quite good at engaging with autocrats and oligarchs. That's what they've been doing for a long time. And then Putin, on the other hand, is a different Vladimir Putin than Trump's first term. This is a Vladimir Putin.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
In Trump's first term, Vladimir Putin was considered sort of the master of the for lack of a better term, sort of the master of manipulating the world stage through shrewd application of minimal force. So in other words, it was the little green men in Crimea. It wasn't this giant, huge invasion that, you know, he'd been able to accomplish a lot in North Africa by shrewd deployments of Wagner.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
He had been able to accomplish a lot in Syria without huge military investments. And so that Putin kind of considered himself a deft manipulator of world affairs. And they were saying, this Putin is now three years into a war where three quarters of a million people have been killed or maimed.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
He is a brutish, straight ahead, power politics Putin, and that he believes he has the advantage on the battlefield right now. And that Trump is going to find him to be pretty intransigent. There's a lot of blood that has been spilled, Russian blood that's been spilled, and that Trump's going to find a different Vladimir Putin than that first term Putin.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
In 2022, a man was arrested. A member of the Iranian IRGC was arrested for a murder plot on John Bolton and he's withdrawing protection. Keep in mind also, Tim, Iranians have been plotting to kill Trump. So he knows how dangerous Iranian plots are, and he's lifting protection from people he perceives to be his political enemies. That is extraordinarily chilling, extraordinarily chilling.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And if one side is trying to manipulate Trump and appeal to Trump and stroke Trump's ego, and the other one is saying, nope. It's just war, man. We're just going to war. How will this play out on Trump? We'll see. But it is interesting. Look, Tim, by threatening to impose tariffs on Russia, he's trading Russia almost as badly as he's treating Canada. And so he's getting serious.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
I do think just going forward, there will be at some point if Ukraine is able to continue to resist as effectively as it has. I mean, in the last year, it inflicted just extraordinary casualties on the Russian army. It lost ground, but it inflicted extraordinary casualties. There may well come a time in the next year or so where there will be some bargaining.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
The Russian economy is a lot of the sanctions that were initially implemented. The RFX are really starting to take hold. Inflation, interest rates, things like this are in a crisis state in Russia. So Russia isn't a vulnerable state. There might be an ability to achieve some kind of deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
I'm not writing that off as a possibility, but I'll tell you this, how we posture our support for Ukraine between now and whenever that moment comes is gonna be absolutely critical to determining the outcome of those negotiations. We've got clown Congress stuff to get to really quick.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Oh, Tim, we're on the same wavelength. I think that what we're mainly dealing with here isn't nine-dimensional chess. It's just, you know, hey, look, I have more influence. I have a greater access. The more I honor Trump. And so you're going to see, especially here in this first year, before the kind of that lamed up calculus like starts to really lock in, you're going to see a lot of sycophancy.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
I mean, here in Tennessee, there was a state legislator who said, indicated that they wanted to change the name of Nashville's airport to Trump International Airport. Why not just rename Tennessee?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Trumpsy. So some of it's just pure sycophancy to be in the room where it happens. But you do raise the really interesting point because I was just saying to a friend of mine yesterday, a lot of people in Washington are very, very, very independently ambitious. And for right now, all of the incentives, if you're independently ambitious, are just to genuflect before the throne of Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
But soon enough, it's going to sink into people that Trump's done in 2028. So how does Trump maintain that hold once these very ambitious Washington politicians realize he's leaving the scene and Don Jr. isn't a great heir, that J.D. Vance did not light the world on fire in his vice presidential run? They're going to see an opening for themselves.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And as you were saying, one way to try to combat that lame duckism is to try to create the illusion that, that Trump won't really be over. So, you know, you might hear things like, we're gonna amend the constitution, that's the ogles, or, well, we'll run Vance Trump And then have Vance step aside. You know, those kinds of things. You'll hear that. And none of it's serious.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
If something happens to John Bolton, if something happens to him, a just nation would immediately impeach and convict Trump for that. I mean, because this is nakedly political targeting of a political opponent.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
You know, I think you'll see things like many law professors are saying that, you know, you might even hear him say many law professors are saying that amendment is unconstitutional or something non utterly nonsensical. Right. But I'm with you. I think he'll float it. He'll entertain it. And maybe, as you were saying, an 81, 82 year old Trump will indulge it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
How gross are these guys, Tim? Like, you know, it's funny, Gates... Gates, who's sort of like, if you're going to talk about the Avengers, he's like the Thor of grossness, arguably the most powerful, the most gross of the gross ones. But he always said, hey, I'm the tip of the iceberg.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And so when you have a person who's willing to do that, willing to place his political opponents lives at risk while pardoning people who engaged in gross acts of seditious violence against police officers on his behalf. What conclusion should we draw from that?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And some of these guys who've been really identified as being truly creepy have indicated, well, I'm not the only one. You saw that, was it Mark Wayne Mullen saying, who wants to hear about all the adulterers? So there's this kind of tip of the iceberg feeling that we have that some folks like a Matt Gaetz have been outed, but there's a whole bunch of stuff lurking under the surface.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And one of my first thoughts when I heard that story was, well, Cassidy released the text. And then I realized, well, they might've been sent to her on a government phone that she no longer has, right? So maybe she can't.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Yeah. Yeah. I also think, Tim, that a lot of these folks are living on borrowed time, that there's so much smoke, there's sort of so much rumor milling about this kind of conduct and this kind of behavior that... You know, how many reporters are right now digging into this? I mean, I think a lot of these guys are living on borrowed time. And as far as like keeping it concealed. If people care.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
But they're not living on borrowed time for their political career, so long as they're close enough to Trump. So long as they're MAGA enough.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Yep. This case, Tim, wild. There's a migrant shelter in El Paso called the Annunciation House. And for years and years and years, it has housed undocumented immigrants, asylum seekers, provided them with food, clothing, shelter, doesn't hide them from law enforcement. In fact, the shelter's in daily communication with federal immigration officials.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Federal immigration officials will send migrants to the Annunciation House to stay for shelter. And Paxton's people showed up one day with a subpoena and said, you have to let us in immediately to examine your records. And they're accusing them of operating an illegal stash house or harboring illegal aliens unlawfully under Texas law. And the Annunciation House was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Give us 24 hours to look at the subpoena and examine our legal options. And so when they look at the subpoena, they realize it's overbroad and they go to court to clarify and narrow the subpoena. And as soon as they do, Paxton tries to revoke their charter to do business. So in other words, he tries to extinguish the organization entirely.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And this goes, the trial judge says, nope, Paxton appeals to the Texas Supreme Court. And the Annunciation House quite rightly says, well, we have a religious free exercise right that is protected under the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration Act to engage in our Christian ministry. And Paxton files a document with the Texas Supreme Court that says this isn't religious free exercise.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
They're not doing mass. They're not taking confession as if serving the poor isn't Christian religious free exercise. What are we doing here? I mean, this is one of the most ancient forms of religious free exercise. It predates the Christian faith even.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Go ahead. Tim, Tim, come on. So, this is such a mess. So, when the ERA was originally proposed, Congress gave it a time limit. I can't remember exactly the year. It might have been 1982 for a sufficient number of states to ratify the ERA. That did not occur. And so... The ERA was dead. It did not get the sufficient number of states to vote by 1982. But everyone forgets about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
People move on with their lives. There is no ERA. But there was a small group of people that said, wait a minute. Can Congress really do that? Can it really do a time limit? Is that something that Congress can do? I don't think so. So they started to kind of continue to press the ERA.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And I can't remember which state it was, but there was a ratification recently that if you had zero time limit on it at all, if it was... just however long to get, then it would have the necessary cross that threshold. And so there were some folks who believed that that meant the ERA was in force and effect. But no, the time limit, 1982 time limit still applies.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
So in the closing days, Biden, I don't know how, why, what was going through his mind, essentially decides, well, I can decide that the time limit doesn't apply and I can declare an amendment to And so, you know, like the archivist and, you know, the people actually, you know, would, you know, print the 28th Amendment, whatever. Everyone's looking at him going, what are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And look, Tim, I thought this was disappointing from Biden, absurd from Biden. But at this point, you know, he's in a YOLO phase right now that is weird and destructive. What was particularly disappointing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
What was particularly disappointing to me was lots of people in groups sort of in that online progressive world who absolutely know better. We're going, yay.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Yeah. You know, I think I hit my sadness well before the election. By the time of the election, I was teaching my class at Lipscomb. And I remember on election night, a Tuesday class, I was walking out right before the polls closed. And my class said, who do you think is going to win? Because I'd asked them. And they were pretty evenly split. I had 21 students in the class.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
11 said Trump would win. 10 said Harris would win. And I said, oh, I think Trump's winning. I think there's only maybe two or three days in the whole cycle that I thought Harris had a real chance. Damn, Ann Seltzer tricked me.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
But I just had a sort of a bleak view. And I think I went through my lamentation in the Biden presidency when I was sort of thinking through the arc of American history. And how Americans have demonstrated that, OK, while overall, if you look from 1776 to 2025, America is a much, much better place in 2025 than it was in 1776. It's not close, but we've had decades of regression sometimes.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
We will go through periods of regression that are prolonged and serious. I mean, think about what happened in the United States between 1877 and the Compromise of 1877 that ended Reconstruction and 1964 and the Civil Rights Act. That is a long period of regression after the hopefulness of Reconstruction. So I just realize... Americans can go off course for a while.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And while I don't have quite as bleak a view of Americans as JVL, I don't think we are a uniquely special people. I think we have a lot of special institutions and we have a lot of special values that we try to use to define our nation, but we're made from the same human clay as any other country, any other place. So why would we think that Americans are uniquely invulnerable to demagogues?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Why would we think that Americans are uniquely not vulnerable to Two years and maybe even a decade or two of real backsliding and real xenophobia and bigotry, because we've seen it happen before in American history. So I'm not making you feel better, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Well, nothing that has occurred has surprised me given my pre-existing view of human nature. So I'm not surprised truly by any of this. But I will say there is purpose. And can I just be a nerd for a minute, Tim? Please. So there's this great show on Apple TV called Foundation. It's a sci-fi show, and it's about a group of people called the Foundation who predicts the collapse of an empire.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And their mission is, they don't believe they can stop it, but they can do something they call shorten the darkness, shorten the darkness. And that is a high calling. As we have seen in this moment, Trump can get dark fast, but it is not guaranteed that we're going through an extended period of backsliding. It is not guaranteed that we're on the front end of an entire demagogic generation.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
None of that is inevitable. And the combination of courage and compassion and resisting Trump, combined with some of the natural consequences of his own erratic and incompetent nature, mean that there's going to be a real opportunity. There will be an opportunity, I believe, to turn the page from Trump. He will give that opportunity.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And Pompeo has hardly been leading the anti-Trump charge since... Trump lost in 2020. I mean, the level of vindictiveness this man has, it's remarkable. And the thing that I was projecting forward onto this was, okay, wait a minute, we have a lot of executive orders, many of which are lawless. They're just lawless.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
The question is, are we, are the people who oppose Trump going to have our act together well enough to truly seize it? Because one of the things that Trump has benefited from is incompetent and sometimes corrupt opposition. I mean, think about how the prosecution just fell apart in Georgia, for example, just craziness.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And think about some of the mistakes that I know that you've seen that Tim, that you've pulled your hair out with a lot. And so he has benefited a lot from incompetent and corrupt opposition, but he will give us an opportunity. He will give his opponents an opportunity to turn the page. And it really is going to be
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
up to his opponents to present a vision, to sell a vision to Americans that's different. And finally, the one thing I would say is he's at a high watermark now, Tim. When I was researching my book several years ago, I went through and I looked at post-election rhetoric from politicians and political movements after every one of our alleged realignments over the last 20 years.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
There's always this period of extreme triumphalism, you know, in 04, Karl Rove. I remember. I mean, remember that, you know, this is a permanent majority. And then 06 happens, you know, 2012, it's the coalition of the ascendant. And then 2014 and 2016 happened. I mean, we just have this constantly in recent American history, this flip, flop, flip, flop back and forth of power.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And I think the Trump folks are deluding themselves if they think that they have triggered some sort of permanent realignment here. Shorten the darkness. That's good. Shorten the darkness.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And while I hope, and I still kind of expect Trump to comply with Supreme Court rulings like he did in 2017 to 2019, We all remember 2020 and 2021 when he just blew through dozens of legal rulings, just blew through them to try to engineer the coup to stay in power in 2021.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And so the question I have is how much confidence should we have that if it's an issue that matters enough to Trump that he would comply with the Supreme Court?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
That was J.D. Vance of 2021. Yeah. I mean, when you hear that, that is now the sitting vice president of the United States. And not just the sitting vice president of the United States. This is a bit chilling. Still, there's some indication that he's more moderate than Trump, because remember, before the January 6th pardons, J.D. Vance was indicating, no, no, no.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
If you committed acts of violence against police officers, well, you know, there should be punishment for that. And Trump just goes and exceeds J.D. Vance's vision. You know, and Vance is referring to a almost certainly apocryphal quote from Andrew Jackson that the entire incident with the Indian Removal Act was more complicated than a lot of the popular histories. But the meaning that J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Vance was communicating was very clear. It's very clear. If they deem a matter a constitutional crisis in their judgment. then they believe they can disregard the Supreme Court. And this is an extraordinarily dangerous assertion. And so Trump does not always do the things that he says, obviously. One of the things he said is he's going to solve the Ukraine war in 24 hours that elapsed days ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
He obviously doesn't do everything that he says. He obviously doesn't do everything that he says he's going to do, even when it's in his power, unlike the Ukraine war. But sometimes he does, and he does it often enough that you still have to pay attention to his words, like the January 6th pardons. This is something where I think even a lot of Trump supporters were in denial about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
No, he's not going to pardon the Proud Boys. He's not going to pardon the Oath Keepers, just the folks who are kind of walking around and have the trespassing charges. How many times did he have to call them hostages? Before you believed what his intentions were.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Yeah, I think I'm most troubled by the use of the invasion language. We can talk about some of the others and we should, but I'll just tell you briefly why I'm concerned about the invasion language. The reason why I'm concerned about that is that that use of the term invasion unlocks, if there is an actual invasion, unlocks a lot of power.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
It unlocks a lot of power, commander-in-chief power for the president and unlocks a lot of power for state governors who... in the constitution are actually authorized to wage war in the event of evasion. And so this is a word that unlocks a lot of power. Now you might think, okay, well, okay, in theory it does. But in reality, this is not an invasion.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
You go back and you look at James Madison, and James Madison talks about an invasion as an operation of war. It's not an economic migration, which is what many of these folks are- When he was president, or is that a Federalist paper? This is in 1800, so this is early.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And so the courts that have wrestled with this issue and who've looked at this issue have all decided that illegal immigration is not an invasion. I mean, this is very common sense. But here is, Tim, what worries me. The open question legally, really, truly, isn't, whether or not this is invasion.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
By any standard of international law, of American history, of American tradition, it's not an invasion and it's not close. So you might think, David, why do you take this so seriously? Well, the reason I take this so seriously is because there is an open question as to whether the determination of whether it's an invasion or not is justiciable in court.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
In other words, historically, when it comes to national security, the court has delegated a lot of these determinations to the political branches. That's why you've, for example, never seen the Supreme Court say, enjoin the Korean War, because there wasn't a declaration of war. They leave that to the political branches.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And so one of the live questions is, even if the court believes it's not an invasion... Would they issue a determination to that effect or would they treat it like other national security decisions and leave it to the political branches? And if they did, if they did leave it to the political branches, we could see some chilling, chilling things, Tim. Like such as?
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Well, once you've unlocked war powers. Because again, we're talking about war powers here. Then you're talking about the elimination of due process. You're talking about the use and deployment of military-grade force. Now, there are some people in Hypermaga, Ultramaga, who are like, fine, call in an airstrike on a convoy. They don't care. But
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Just think of the unrestrained power that exists when you unlock war powers. You're not in a world, a traditional world of law enforcement at that time. And so you combine war powers with the Insurrection Act, which gives the president really at his discretion, the ability to call out active duty troops or to federalize the National Guard and put them under his command for domestic purposes.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
That creates a situation where he could deploy the military and in ways that we've not previously seen.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
I do wonder about that, Tim, honestly. And I'm with you. I am not one of these people who says the Supreme Court's rubber stamping Trump. In fact, there was a study in 2023 that said that the Supreme Court
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
rebuked trump in his one term between you know 2017 and 2021 you know more than other presidents so it had rejected trump's argument he was the most lawless so that would make sense but yeah like there's a lot of reasons for that but if they if in fact he was the president the spring court has ruled against the most that's a strong indicator they don't just roll over and then even in the
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
period, there were two bad rulings, in my view, in the interim, the Biden administration. One was the 14th Amendment, Section 3, the insurrection ruling, and the other one was the immunity ruling. But Numerous other Supreme Court rulings rejected MAGA arguments. There were multiple MAGA losses at the Supreme Court during the Biden term, and that's with the 6-3 court.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
And so even the TikTok ruling, the recent 9-0 TikTok ruling, was directly contradictory of Trump's wishes. Trump filed a brief saying, let me handle this. And the Supreme Court said, 9-0, ban upheld. Now, the Supreme Court ruling didn't compel Trump to enforce the ban. That wasn't part of the Supreme Court's ruling, but it upheld the ban, and that's directly contrary to Trump's position.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Tim, it's so good to see you. I can't believe this Denver Nuggets hat, active aggression. against a Western conference rival. I don't, I don't understand this. I thought we were friends, Tim. I thought this was a safe place.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
So I'm with you, Tim. I do believe they're going to check Trump in a number of ways. It's just that Trump is going to be so freaking relentless in his lawlessness that we can't count on the Supreme Court to check him every time. And one of the areas where I do have worries is this invasion language.
The Bulwark Podcast
David French: Vengeance and Rage
Yeah, we're going to see a lot of reports from a lot of different places, and some of them are going to be really troubling. Some of them are not going to be accurate. We're going to be in a kind of fog of war type situation for a bit, Tim, until things sort of shake out and we have greater visibility on exactly what is happening. Because...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah, yeah. So I said this on Morning Joe because it is such a gobsmacking element of this case. So I litigated, as I said, 20-plus years in higher education and other places where I was litigating these cases that were First Amendment retaliation cases. And in a First Amendment retaliation case, what you're saying is I engaged in free speech,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And because I engaged in free speech, I'm now being punished. But never would universities say, you did free speech, now we're punishing you. Never would the government say, you engaged in free speech, now we're punishing you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We had to prove that their reason that they stated, it might be, well, we actually terminated you for poor job performance, or we actually terminated you because you were late all the time. That their reason that they put forward just a pretext, that they were making it up, In this circumstance, you don't even have to do that, Tim, because they just say it in the document.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It's because you spoke, because you're teaching or promoting DEI, because you represented that he's a Democratic client and engaged in activities in support of your clients. That's why we are taking action. It's unlike anything I've ever seen. They're just right up front confessing to the constitutional violation.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Oh, for sure. I mean, you make it very difficult. Let's put it this way. Let's suppose you're somebody who is a dissenter or a whistleblower in the Trump administration and you're looking for legal representation. So if the order against Perkins Coie would be allowed to stand, you couldn't go to Perkins Coie. Right. You have other firms that are now... Can't go to Covington. Covington and Burling.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Are they going to work with you after what's happened to them? Revocation their security clearances. So it puts a pall. It has a chilling effect. On really one of your most fundamental elements of participation in the legal system, can I get a lawyer? And so I will fully acknowledge that a lot of elements of Donald Trump are he's incompetent and ignorant in a lot of areas.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
But after we've watched 10 years of him dominate the American political scene, you can't say the man isn't politically shrewd. And one thing that he does that is very politically shrewd is he picks the right targets.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so just as there's not too many people who are really worried about the fate of white shoe law firms, the American elite higher education, it does not exactly have a lot of defenders right now. Foreign aid that Trump has gone after. Historically, Americans have had really mixed feelings about foreign aid. So he's taken a lot of targets.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I'm sure we'll end up talking some about Mahmoud Khalil in Colombia. Let's just do it right now. Yeah, let's go right to that. Yeah, not a sympathetic target to millions and millions and millions of Americans. Because this was a guy who was a leader in student protests in Colombia. Some of the groups he belonged to were actively sort of pro-Hamas.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
You know, the encampments in Columbia were uniquely terrible, more so than many other universities. They had a takeover of Hamilton Hall, you know, an illegal takeover of Hamilton Hall. So this is a guy, to the extent that he participated in all of that, is not somebody that most Americans are looking at and saying, we need to protect this guy at all costs. And not an American citizen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
He's a legal green card holder on top of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Right, exactly. And what's interesting, my colleague Michelle Goldberg had this really good column where she was talking about the Red Scare and this moment. And she said something that I think is really, really important. One of the things that made the Red Scare sustainable for so long was the targets. They were targeting communism at the height of the Cold War. Okay, well...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
a communist or somebody who has who's far far far left they possess first amendment rights just as much as a republican or a democrat but they're much less sympathetic and so that helps sustain this sort of frenzy in american life for years and years and similarly here you have a situation where the trump administration is taking on institutions and people that are not sympathetic
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Sometimes for good reasons. Like, I can't think of a single thing Mahmoud Khalil has said about the Middle East. I mean, there are a few things he said that I, when he condemns anti-Semitism, obviously I agree with that. But when he's talking about Israel and Hamas and Palestine, I disagree with him. I thought the... The encampments were out of control. They were violating the rights of others.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
There was a wave of anti-Semitism on campus that still hasn't fully abated. All of those things are dreadful. I disagree with Mahmoud Khalil, but also I know the constitutional issues that are at stake. And you defend the Constitution not through the popular voices, because they don't need defense. That's when the First Amendment isn't really necessary. You defend the First Amendment...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
by defending the unpopular people and voices and defending their fundamental rights.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I think they're making the weakest form of what could be a strong argument imaginable. Okay. Here's what the strong argument would look like. The strong argument would be he's here on a student visa and
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And that we are deporting him because he is a threat to the foreign policy and national security of the United States for reasons A, B, C, D, E, and F detailing illegal activity or material support for terrorism. Then they're golden. That's not what they did here. What they did here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
No evidence.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Right. There's no evidence of it as yet. And part of what seemed to have happened is they thought this was going to be a much easier case because they thought he was just going to be, that he was just here on a student visa. Learn later he's here on, he's here with a green card.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so the strong version of the case is you take somebody on a visa who has done things you can point to that are unlawful. and you say deport him, that's a very strong case. They would win that case. Here, you have a green card holder, so a lawful permanent resident. They have not articulated a single thing that he's done that is illegal.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Their notice of appearance that requires him to show up only listed as the grounds that Secretary of State Marco Rubio has deemed that he's a threat to the foreign policy of the United States. There's no reasons listed for that. It's just the conclusion.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so what they're doing is the weakest possible version of what could be, in other circumstances, a strong argument that foreign non-citizens cannot come to the U.S. and engage in disruptive protest.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Now, instead, what they've done is they've essentially said that a green card holder can be summarily detained, isolated from his family, isolated from privileged conversations with his own attorney, And not because he's engaged in any illegal activity at all, but because the Secretary of State, in his wisdom, has determined that he's a threat to the foreign policy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
A student protester is a threat to the foreign policy of the United States.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
besides cruelty? The argument would be, well, we don't want him hiding. We don't want him hiding. But there are ways to deal with that, right? And also, yeah, this is something, Tim, a lot of the things you just articulate are just gratuitous. So, for example, detaining him in Louisiana, not allowing him to have a privileged phone call with his own lawyer. I mean, a judge had to order that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
A judge had to order that they get a privileged phone call. Look, if I am accused of murder... I get to talk to my lawyer on a privileged basis. I mean, this is where that malice comes in. They're trying to do everything that they can while they have them in custody. to punish this guy, to make his life miserable. And so this is where it just starts to get even more cynical.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
They're self-righteously wrapping themselves in the flag of combating anti-Semitism, okay? However, at the same time, this is a movement that if you're the right kind of anti-Semite, you can get jobs and you can get favors. Like look at some of the hires in this administration. Some of the hires in this administration include people who've engaged in just unbelievably anti-Semitic speech.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And then, you know, there's this, they're bringing the Tate brothers back in to the United States. So the Tate brothers, these guys are grotesque anti-Semites, just grotesque. It's not even, It's not even close.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so if you're an anti-Semite and you're on the right, you can get hired by the administration, like this person Kingsley Wilson, who's the deputy press secretary in the Department of Defense.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
He nominated a guy named Amir Ghalib to be ambassador of Kuwait. This is a guy who is a mayor of a Muslim-majority town in Michigan that passed the strongest version of the Boycott, Divest, Sanction resolution. that liked a Facebook comment that referred to Jews as monkeys, declined to discipline an appointee who suggested that the Holocaust was cosmic punishment for October 7th.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And he's ambassador to Kuwait now because he endorsed Trump. He endorsed Trump. And you can do this all day in the larger right. I mean, look at what Joe Rogan has been doing with some of his recent guests, Candace Owens. Trump dined with Nick Fuente. I mean, you can just do this all day long.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I don't like to say no chance, but I would fall out of my chair in shock if they,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It's been a long time. It's been a long time. Yeah. But I would be completely, utterly shocked. In fact. The case is so one-sided that I don't necessarily think the court – they may. They may just decide to take it right now and to deal with it right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
But the court may just decide to let it wait and percolate because there's no court in the country who's upheld so far this birthright citizenship order. It's on pause. It's on hold. And so I don't know they may. I don't know that they'll even choose to hear it now. I think they'll hear it. I do think this is a case that they will hear. I just don't know that they're going to hear it now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So, yeah, I might even be over under seven and a half, Tim. I'm getting aggressive here. Okay, all right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So essentially what happened is there was a little bit of discontent, but it kind of got lost in the maelstrom, the literal maelstrom of January 6th. There was a little bit of discontent that you could feel in MAGA that none of the three Trump appointees had helped him out during the election contest.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
That the Supreme Court was nowhere to be found in helping Donald Trump in the election steal effort in 2020. And that would be in deep MAGA. Like deep MAGA was upset that the Trump appointees didn't help. But then you began to have a series of cases that were decided when Biden was in office. where MAGA legal initiatives were defeated, were turned back.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So voting rights, you had other cases, the independent state legislature theory, the various different kinds of cases, Barrett was consistently voting with, say, Roberts or Kavanaugh, but then also, interestingly, would write her own opinions that were very independent-minded. You could tell that she's her own person, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So even before now, at the end of last term, last summer, you began to see some pieces circulating in the legal world that were like, Amy Coney Barrett is her own person. She is just not a... automatic, you know, an automatic joiner. And so you began to see that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And then it really kicked off just a couple of weeks ago when Roberts and Barrett joined with the three more liberal justices, the three Democratic appointees, to uphold an order that was ordering the Trump administration to disperse about $2 billion in in aid funds. And so that's what kicked it off.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It wasn't just previously appropriated. It was previously appropriated funds where the work had been completed. Right, okay, yeah, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Well, in defense of the four on that, on that five to four, the case had a little bit, a few more quirks than a lot was widely reported. And one of the quirks was that one entity sued, and I think they were owed, and I may be off on this a little bit, they were owed a few hundred million dollars.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The order granted them their money, but it also granted the rest of the two billion to other parties who were not parties to the case. Okay, so some of Alito's disagreement in his dissent was related to that point. And I think that's fair. I think that's fair. Normally, you have to be a party to the case or a member of a class in a class action to receive compensation in a case.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so I do think that there is a fair critique of the five there. Being in the four is not some sort of sign that they are in Trump's back pocket.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I kind of put what I expect to see from the Supreme Court into three categories, or to use AO, advisory opinions terminology, three buckets, where I think you're going to have to see at the end of the day, some sort of Supreme Court resolution. Like, for example, I think we're going to have to see a Supreme Court resolution on birthright citizenship.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And I think it's, I'm virtually certain Trump is going to lose that one. I think you're going to have, you're going to end up seeing some sort of resolution on, from the Supreme Court on The employment rights of members of the civil service. And so I think you're going to see the Supreme Court there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I also think you're going to end up seeing the Supreme Court make definitive rulings maybe on impoundment and the impoundment control, the constitutionality and application of the Impoundment Control Act. Also, that's my three. I'll add another bucket or two. I think you also might very well see the Supreme Court make definitive rulings about independent agencies.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Under what circumstance can these independent agencies continue to have any sort of autonomy? from the rest of the executive branch. I think you're going to see that. And then you might see something around some of these college or university cases.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The independent agencies, I think, is where you're going to see, because it has long been, you know, as a conservative lawyer, old school conservative lawyer. I'm classical liberal conservative lawyer and originalist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We've long had beef with the way these independent agencies are structured and run because they're kind of- Like such as explain to listeners, like which are the independent agencies? So, for example, when I say an independent agency, that means an agency where the head of the agency is protected in some way from being hired or fired by the president.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
In other words, that there's some tenure or some ability of the agency to have some autonomy from direct control. presidential control. And there have been cases along these lines talking about, wait, no, hold on. The president runs the executive branch. And if this is an executive branch agency, the Congress can't shackle the president too much in how he's able to run the agency.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so that's been a long running fight. In my view, that question is resolved by saying, These agencies are part of the executive branch. The president can hire and fire. If the Congress doesn't want an agency to be in the executive branch, they can create legislative agencies. There are ways to deal with this that are not exactly by placing something within the executive branch.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So I think that is an area, because this is something that's a legacy legal issue that's been sort of overhanging for decades. That's an area where I see that Trump could win. I also think that the employment cases get tricky, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I'm bearish on the real-world short-term outcome. I'm somewhat more bullish on the longer-term legal outcome. So in other words— They'll win their cases eventually. Yeah, exactly. So I think there will be cases, especially dealing with lower-level employees. If you're a policymaking employee, then the court's going to say that the president has the power to hire and fire you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
If you're a lower-level employee, I think what you're going to end up seeing is the court saying, no, you know, civil service protection— is lawful it is legal you have to comply with it now you can fire an employee a lower level employee if they don't do what they're told to do and it's lawful but you just can't sort of say well the deep state's against me so i'm getting rid of all of them right
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so I think you'll end up having that. But to get from A to B, you're just going to have an enormous amount of disruption in people's lives, some of which will not be fixed by the legal system. And you'll have disruption in government that won't be fixed. It's not like you can go back in time and undo the chaos that's happening right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Will, I don't know if you saw there was a post. Do you follow Jessica Riedel from the Manhattan Institute?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah, I interviewed Jessica about Doge a couple weeks ago. Jessica is cutting through the BS on this like nobody else. And there was a post just a day or so ago saying Doge may well end up costing the government more money, in part because by gutting enforcement in the IRS – That has hundreds of billions of dollars of consequence going down the line.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Well, here's what's crazy, Tim, because, OK, you can a Trump administration say we're not going to be prosecuting white collar crime or we're deemphasizing it or whatever. Or it can sort of say, as seems to be happening, like if you're a MAGA businessman right now, it's hard to imagine like an aggressive criminal enforcement against you. Yeah. Go ham. This is your moment. Yeah. But you know what?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
You don't repeal the law when you don't enforce the law. And a lot of these statutes of limitations will not have run by the time there's a new administration. You could very well have a situation in which there's this sort of legal holiday, this sort of perceived legal holiday for a few years that really comes back and bites people hard.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
2029 is coming, Tim. But this does raise a really interesting point, which is. These guys are governing like they're never going to lose power.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
But I think that here's where I think a lot of that's coming from. So here's a prediction I'm going to make, Tim. If the Republican nominee loses in 2028, the Republican Party, many members will not accept the results. Oh, okay. I think that's a safe bet.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Easier money on that one. So my bold prediction. So that's what I think of when I say these guys, that's one aspect of these guys believing that they're not going to ever be out of power. They just deny it when they lose often. The other element here is it's hard to overstate, and I'm sure you see this kind of in the MAGA circles that you connect with,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It's hard to overstate the extent of the confidence that they feel that they have cracked the code politically, that 2024 was an absolute massive turning point in American political history. I saw a sort of a Christian nationalist figure a day or two ago post that he thinks the Democratic Party is just going to dissolve. It's going to go away.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
that it's going to be replaced by the Republican Party is just going to become so big and powerful it's going to kind of split in two.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And that's the kind of triumphalism that I see is that essentially we've cracked the code, it's over, and so they're running the country like they are the Republicans post-Civil War or they're the New Deal Democrats, that they have generational control is the way they're running the place.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Feels hubristic, but I am very much worried that the major strain is, wait, I don't know about music. I'm about to just totally major chord, minor chord. Like the major chord is we're going to win forever because we've cracked the code. But there's a minor chord of we're never going to let them take power again.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Oh, man. Well, I mean, I don't think there's any question at all that Ukraine faces military challenges, which we exacerbated, by the way. Big time. Big time. Big time. But at the same time, Russia is facing massive losses in equipment and personnel. So there is a situation where with competent leadership, you might be able to engineer a ceasefire in some way. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Both parties are suffering in this war. But the problem that you have is when Trump begins to switch over and instead of sort of saying to Putin, this is exactly the time you say to Putin, yeah, Ukrainians are suffering and now we're going to really backstop them. Yeah, right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Instead, the message has been much more Ukrainians are suffering and we're going to be we're going to have an off on switch on aid. And when I'm ticked at them, the switch turns off. And when I'm not angry at them, the switch turns on. And all that tells Vladimir Putin is to keep pushing, to push the troops harder, to push harder and harder. And it's deeply demoralizing if you're Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It's deeply invigorating if you're Russia. I mean, the dynamic here is unbelievable. But at the same time, there is a need for for serious talks about a ceasefire. They're needed.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so we're in this terrible position where we need to have talks about a ceasefire, but the most powerful country in the world has essentially switched sides, occasionally dabbles back with Ukraine by turning intelligence sharing back on. It is an absolute mess, Tim. And don't think that Vladimir Putin isn't trying to capitalize this. He's very clever.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The way he responded to the ceasefire proposal was essentially, well, no, because the proposal doesn't deal with the root causes of the conflict. Which causes all the Putin sympathetic people on Twitter to go, yeah, look, Putin wants to deal with the root cause. You know what the root cause is? Your invasion. That's the root cause of this war, is you decided to invade.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Tim, we have to, with eyes open, realize who our enemies are and are not. Russia is no Canada. Oh, right. The real foe. I mean, the real foe here. I mean, Trump's got another whole fight on his hands right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Constantly makes my hands sticky at Waffle House. Darn you, Canadians. But the... There is a very real trend here, which is very bullying and aggressive to our friends, our historic friends. He's trying to make them not our friends. He's very bullying and aggressive towards our friends, and he's very obsequious in many ways to our foes. And to understand, it's not even hard to understand why.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I mean, it's really a couple of things happening at once. One is... Trump personalizes everything. And he knows that the Europeans did not want him to be president. He knows Zelensky did not want him to be president. He knows all of these people. preferred that Kamala Harris would win. And so in his mind, that means that they are in the category of enemy. And his enemies are America's enemies.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And then when you add on top of that, that he genuinely, at his core, as we are now seeing, this isn't, you know, it was reading tea leaves in his first term early. Now it's just like reading Dog whistles have become bullhorns, right? And he sees himself as that kind of bullying strongman.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so in that circumstance, the way he treats Russia and Ukraine actually has a lot of resonance to how he's treating Canada and Mexico. He sees Ukraine through Putin's eyes, a smaller, weaker neighboring country that I can bully towards my own interests. He turns to Canada. He looks at Mexico. That's our Ukraine. Smaller countries, less powerful that he can bully.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so he doesn't see anything necessarily. I mean, remember going back to some of the early invasion, he complimented the brilliance of Putin. So he wants the same sort of rights to dominate our neighbors that Putin is exercising through blunt military force.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Their demands are utterly unacceptable. Essentially, what they're saying is, oh, great, we're going to try to accomplish in the negotiating table what we haven't been able to accomplish on the battlefield. They have been able to take territory, absolutely, at horrifying cost. They've been able to take territory. But they know that if we continue to support Ukraine, they cannot.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
They may make continued incremental gains, but by sometime in late 2025 this year or early 2026, they just won't be able to sustain this level of offensive combat. So On the one hand, they know they've taken territory, but they also know the sands of the hourglass are running out for them and their ability to continue putting all these men and all this material in the meat grinder.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so this is exactly the time where you go in and look, I'm also quite realistic. I know the odds of Ukraine taking back that territory are very low. Yeah. Very low. This is exactly the time when you come in and you make your own demands and Because you know the situation Russia is in. And you try to reach something that looks more like that Korean armistice.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And the thing about the Korean armistice that was so key were a couple of factors. One, North Korea has no say in South Korean politics. So South Korea is fully independent, right? Putin wants a say. Make Zelensky run for election or whatever. Putin wants a say in Ukrainian politics. Number two, and this is the most important thing. There were security guarantees. There were U.S. troops.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Now, there shouldn't be U.S. troops in Ukraine, I don't believe. Not yet. But France and Britain have already stepped up to say they're troops. They're willing to put their boots on the ground. And it's so key it's those two countries because those are the two European countries with their own nuclear deterrent.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so if you could have an armistice with French and British troops on the ground, guarantee Ukrainian political independence, that is worth pursuing. That's what you bargain towards. You don't preemptively concede all your bargaining chips in the meantime.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah, Hexeth has long had. So you have to look at this in totality. So it's the JAG generals and key leader, you know, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, other key leaders, the JAG generals. And the reason why you look at that in total is a couple of things. One, it becomes very clear when you include the JAG generals in the firings that this was a more of a political purge.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
than a classical military firing, which is for corruption or incompetence. So, you know, all these people who go, hey, you can't criticize Trump for firing generals. Presidents have fired generals throughout American history. Well, the pattern has been
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
they're corrupt or if they have failed on the battlefield so you know for example abraham lincoln changed generals like he was changing clothes for a while because they kept losing battles to the confederate trying to win a war he's trying to win a war obama fired the general who was running the war in afghanistan because it wasn't going well and then when he replaced him with stanley mccrystal mccrystal's team
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
was insubordinate, openly so. And so those are classic reasons why you fire generals. This is, by all appearances, including the JAG generals, really is the tell here. It's a political purge. It's a political purge. He doesn't like that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, for example, put out a short video after the George Floyd murder.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
He has a bone to pick with what he calls the Jagoffs, the Jag Corps, which he thinks is responsible for handcuffing warriors in the field. The reality is Jag officers don't make the law. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The law is what the law is. And so what we are is legal advisors. I say we because I'm a former JAG officer. We're legal advisors who advise commanders of their existing legal obligation. We help them accomplish the mission lawfully. So we actually, in many ways, facilitate the American military mission in very important ways.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Right. I agree with you. And the other layer to this is, again, if you look at how Trump views himself, he views himself as a Putin figure. And what do Putin figures demand from their military? Political loyalty. If you have political loyalty as a criteria in a military, that's death for the competence of the military.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah. I mean, this goes back to what I was saying earlier about what is, quote, DEI. It's funny how many people will send you a note online and say, DEI is illegal. What? No. There are circumstances where explicit race-based preferences are illegal. But DEI, in other words, like acknowledging the accomplishments of women and of black citizens, of Latino citizens, I mean – That is not illegal.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And I'm going to have to upgrade my definition of DEI or woke. It used to be anything one millimeter to the left of MAGA would be DEI or woke. Now it is not just, as you were saying, it's not nothing to do with the spectrum at all anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It is anything that acknowledges, not just on a spectrum of left or right views of race, it's now getting towards anything that acknowledges that America is this diverse country with diverse communities and That is now out.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
No, no, no. Was that the golden rule? No, no, no. That's lex talionis, eye for an eye. Like, that's not the golden rule. And this is, you know, a senior leader at... one of the largest Christian universities in the United States that's become, but that's MAGA theology right there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah, yeah. This is something, and you don't just have to know about sort of Christian theology. The golden rule, you know, sort of do unto others as you would have done unto yourself or love your neighbor as yourself, sort of that formulation is kind of a common theme from a lot of religious perspectives. And so this idea that he would mistake eye for an eye for the golden rule is amazing stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Can you rule out a recession, even a temporary one?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Look, everything good is Trump's. Everything bad is Biden's fault, Tim. Okay, that's easy. Like, let's just understand this. And so if you have a long-term concern, that's all going to be good because Trump is in charge. If you have a short-term alarm, that's all fine because that's Biden's fault. Which fundamentals are we talking about there, though? The fundamentals. Like our dribbling?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The fundamentals. Bounce passing is still strong? It's the fundamentals, Tim. Everybody knows the fundamentals. One thing that I look at when I'm looking at, okay, is something happening that is sort of unique to American political circumstances versus part of bigger trends? Because we do live in an interconnected world, interconnected economies.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
What is, say, our stock market doing compared to other stock markets in pure countries? And if they're having big downturns while we're having big downturns, maybe there's something really deep and systemic. But what we're seeing right now is this stock market correction that is unique to America in the moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So you are seeing some America-specific things that you can watch in real time be tied to Donald Trump's actions and statements. And Trump knows this better than anybody because it's one of the reasons why he keeps yanking back the tariffs. He'll impose them and the market goes down. Because he sees the market is sort of like his only focus group that he pays attention to.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
But if it keeps going down, he'll have to tell MAGA to stop paying attention to it. But we know in the short term, he has paid close attention to market moves. And we also know in the short term that the market has moved as a direct result of his actions. You can see it right in front of your face. You know, I think Vance is right to sort of say...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
look, long-term, we don't know how things are going to shake out. And a lot of that is because the American economy has its own independent strength. We often overestimate the influence of presidents on the economy. We're always overestimating. So the American economy is kind of a wonder all its own.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The economist wrote about this in the run-up to the 2024 election, that the American economy in 2024 was... kind of the wonder of the world. Like the rest of the developed world was saying, how are you guys doing this? And so there are some elements of the American economy that I think are just very, very strong that are not directly related to who's in Washington.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
But to the extent that who's in Washington matters to the economy, and it ultimately does a lot, what's happening right now is entirely negative in my view.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Well, and look at his targets. His main targets have not been the countries that are our chief manufacturing, say, competitors. The Canadian manufacturing base is not what's gutted the heartland. This is... What are we doing here?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
If the confrontation goes down, we got to do something about it, Tim. There's got to be a bat. There's got to be something because I'm going to back my Grizzlies to the hill.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Let's just start with free speech. I mean, this is the area that I litigated in for 20 plus years before I became a journalist. And Tim, it's just kind of funny that- that J.D. Vance goes to Munich and lectures the entire European world about free speech and then comes back home and the Trump administration just says, Europe, hold my beer on censorship. Just unbelievable stuff unfolding.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Tim, there are so many incidents in the last 10 years since Trump came down the escalator where he does... exactly the thing that a lot of conservatives were warning the government might do in the future, right? Except it's coming from the Republican president.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
No Sharia law. Who knows what the rest of the term will hold. The feds are going to try to dictate your curriculum. They're going to try to dictate higher education. This kind of thing has been something that conservatives have been worried about for a while. And Georgetown is just particularly egregious, Tim. I mean, but it's egregious in much the same way so many other things are egregious.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So it begins with this letter from Ed Martin, who's the acting or interim U.S. attorney in D.C. This guy's hardcore MAGA zealot fanatic. But it begins with him sending a letter that says, it has come to my attention reliably. What does that mean? Anyway, it has come to my attention reliably that Georgetown Law School continues to teach and promote DEI. This is unacceptable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Now, the letter does not define DEI, which, Tim, you and I know the definition of DEI in MAGA land is not simply unlawful race preferences. So, for example, I fully supported the Supreme Court's decision in the Harvard Fair case where it eliminated race-based preferences from university admissions.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Okay, if a letter was saying that the university was engaging in unlawful race-based preferences, that's one thing. But this was teach and promote DEI. But we know that the definition of DEI isn't just unlawful race-based preferences. It's anything on race that is one millimeter to the left of MAGA. So if you celebrate the achievements of women in science or sports or whatever, that's DEI.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
If you celebrate the achievements of a black athlete or a scholar or a thinker or a pilot or a war hero, that's DEI. It's all – everything one – ounce, millimeter to the left is DEI.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I mean, in their view, it's even evidence of, quote, DEI when they see that somebody is black or a woman being hired. Right. Or having a job. I mean, this is the kind of thing that, you know, whenever there's a disaster or something terrible that happens, they want to know was the pilot or the driver or whatever, you know, a woman or were they black or were they Hispanic?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And you immediately get into this demographic game looking for DEI. It's even beyond that because it's talking about what he says. It's not, it has come to my attention reliably that Georgetown Law School is engaged in illegal conduct. It says that continues to teach and promote. That's expression. That's just free speech right there, teaching and promoting.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And then he said he's begun an inquiry and he demands to know if DEI is found in your courses or teaching in any way, will you move swiftly to remove it? Again, this is about expression, Tim. It's just about expression.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And then he says that nobody who is affiliated with a law school or universities that continues to teach or utilize DEI will be considered for their fellows program, a summer internship or employment. What are we doing here? Even if you're MAGA and you disagree with Georgetown, the mere fact that you went to Georgetown is going to disqualify you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So this is not the kind of thing where you need to be a legal scholar to understand that this is bad. The federal government cannot dictate the viewpoint and curriculum of a private Christian school. They can't even do it entirely with public schools, Tim. But this is just one. We could literally talk about how bad this case is for an hour, but it's just one instance.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So this case really does kind of hit all the parts of the First Amendment. Yeah. You're talking about the full spectrum of First Amendment rights at Georgetown. Go to Perkins Coie, which I haven't even gotten into Perkins Coie.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
That's free speech where this is the government issuing an order, a mandate, barring a law firm from access to federal buildings, barring employees or former employees of the law firm from employment in the federal government. Why? Why? Because they represented Democrats and were opposed to Donald Trump. I mean, so...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
You're actually going instance after instance after instance where there's a direct explicit, and this is the key, Tim, it's very explicit attack on free speech. They're saying it right up front, like in the Georgetown letter. They say it right up front. It's because you're teaching DEI. with Perkins Coie.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It's because you engaged in these constitutionally protected legal and political activities.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Free trade and protectionism are different from the others in this way. If you are snatching up Muslim grad students from the streets without a trial, Theoretically, that could happen to anybody. But you join it to enough racism, and it doesn't. In fact, it's not true. So America spent much of its first 150 years as a nation. On the one hand, a totalitarian nightmare state of oppression.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
On the other hand, a land of freedom. You just looked at your wrist and noted the color of the skin, and you could predict in advance whether you had rights or whether you didn't. And if you had the right color skin, they were not going to do certain things to you. You could drink from whatever water fountain or sit on whatever bench you wanted in the fanciest park on Fifth Avenue.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
So racism is a limiting principle that protects people from the consequences of some of their ideas. And in American history, it's worked pretty well. Protectionism, it causes a depression from which there's no escape. And I think about how America first ends. I'm going to remember the last episode. And here's a story about that. So the young Gerald Ford,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
who is a young man in the early 1940s and was a football star and a male model and a very striking figure in his generation, was an activist in America First in 1940-41, a strong believer in isolationism, which also went with protectionism in those days. Then comes Pearl Harbor. Then he goes into the Navy. Then he serves with distinction. He sees the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
He has time to think about the reason for this extraordinary disruption in his life, was America's failure to act when it could have acted peacefully to stop aggression. And maybe we had a little insight that Pearl Harbor in particular, that unlike Nazi Germany, which was gripped by an ideology of aggression and domination,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Imperial Japan was sort of pushed into Pearl Harbor by American protection. Japan was a pretty liberal society in the 1920s. They lived by exporting. Then came the Depression, and the United States and Britain cut off both their raw materials and their markets. And the Japanese, I mean, not to justify them, but they didn't have many good choices.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And invading and occupying China seemed like not a crazy solution to the predicament into which they had been thrust. And that put them on the path that led to Pearl Harbor. And Ford, on his... Sea Service had time to think about this. And when he came back to the United States as a veteran, he ran for Congress in Grand Rapids.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And he started by challenging in a Republican primary an isolationist and protectionist congressman and said, I have learned from the Pearl Harbor experience. We must trade in freedom. and we must protect allies, and we must have partners. And he won his primary and went to Congress and became president. So I think there are a lot of people who are about to learn the hard way.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
If you can't share my vision of global cooperation just on your own, thinking about it yourself, you will learn the hard way, what happens when you do it the other way. So I think we are going to see a react. We are going to have some very serious economic trouble because of these decisions. And it's already started. I think it's actually probably too late to turn –
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
If we change our ways now, we can probably shorten the period of pain, but I don't think we can stop the period of pain.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Some things can be fixed. Some things, as you say, can't. So what can be fixed? We can end the trade war. And that'll be embarrassing for Trump. But since no one else in America or very few other people in America thought it was, it's not a national humiliation. It's a personal humiliation. The whole thing was his idea. So we can end that and get commerce moving again.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And if you do that after a couple of quarters, whatever has been set in motion, the avalanche that is in motion will stop. And then the natural dynamism and creativity of the American economy will kick in and interest rates will come down a little bit and the 8% mortgage will become a 5% mortgage. Those things can all be put in motion. But what you can't... undo is the fact that you've done this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
It's like when Ted Cruz and others played with defaulting on the debt during the Tea Party days. That pistol was never fired, but it was brandished. Before 2010, it was never even brandished. Between 2010 and 2000, it got waved around a lot, but the bullet mercifully never went off. But something where the risk was zero has become non-zero, and the move from zero to non-zero is a very big move.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Yeah, so everyone has to understand, the Americans elected Trump not once but twice. The first time was a glitch in the electoral college, but the second time they really did it. And they sent him a Congress to protect him and support him. So this could really happen. And then they actually did launch this embargo.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Well, I think oftentimes in these decisions, you have a choice of the full espresso, 5-4, the espresso macchiato, 6-3, or the cafe americano at 9-0. And so pretty obviously, Roberts thought it was more important to have a 9-0 outcome than to have a really robust decision. I think I'm not going to gainsay John Roberts on those kinds of Supreme Court tactics. It's pretty obvious.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And the President of the United States has been talking about fighting wars against NATO partners because annexing Greenland is an act of war. Making Canada the 51st state is an act of war. And a country that threatens war, I mean, NATO, there isn't any NATO anymore. I mean, it's not abolished on paper.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
It's dead. Because when the French government is saying we're going to have a Franco-Danish program of military cooperation to protect Greenland, against whom? They probably are not strong enough to win, but... Given that Trump's aggressions are completely unsupported politically at home, if they make it a little expensive, the project might fall apart.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But anyway, this whole system of guarantees, American troops will soon be pulled from Poland, it looks like. Ukrainians have been left to die in the field. American guarantees are not – I have talked to NATO defense ministers who are reconsidering their military procurement, because they understand that American equipment is the best. It's also the most expensive.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But they're not planning on literally fighting the United States. They need equipment that's better than Russia's. And the South Korean equipment is better than Russia's and more reliable. So save money. It's good enough. It does the job. You're not going to be fighting the United States Air Force. So get the South Korean or the Swedish or the French variant. None of this is going to be forgotten.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And the reaction that has been going on in Canada, you've seen, That's not going to be forgotten either. American presidents in the 2060s and 2070s are going to be facing consequences of things that Trump did in the 2020s.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Well, it's a testimony to the country that America used to be. And when I started talking about smuggling, everyone had this, oh yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Because historically, Americans comply with the law. I mean, since prohibition. And they may not comply with the laws against drugs and fentanyl, but most people do because we recognize that... These are laws against self-harm.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
I mean, we all cheat sometimes on seatbelts. We all maybe, you know, roll through the stop sign sometimes and people buy drugs. But mostly drug laws are complied with because people understand, you know, fentanyl shouldn't be taking it. And I don't want to see my kids or my spouse taking it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
The idea that you'd have wide scale civilian, most people cooperate with the tax laws, most people pay their taxes. It's a high trust society. But once you start saying, okay, tube socks are going to cost three times in the United States where they cost anywhere else in the world, you become very rapidly a low trust society.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And if we take the Trump plan seriously, if it ever went into really effect. Nintendo consoles that are supposed to cost $445 will cost $660 in the United States, but they'll still cost $445 in Toronto and Vancouver. That's going to arbitrage. I mean, I have a house on Lake Ontario. I have a little boat. And you can leave from my marina and pilot a small boat onto 10,000 backyards.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
on the other side of the lake or on the other side of the St. Lawrence River. It's just people's houses. So you could bring a hundred Nintendo, I'm not going to do this. I just want, if anyone's listening, I don't, don't look at me. My boat will, I am not participating in this traffic, but somebody, there are a lot of boats in my marina.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
There are a lot of boats and they can carry tube socks and the bigger ones could carry flat screen TVs and they'll all be able to carry French champagne, which is a proud Canadian tradition of bringing champagne to freedom deprived Americans.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
It got the headline, bring this guy home. He's not... in Siberia. He's not in China. Your claim that you have no ability to return somebody from America's only ally in the world right now, El Salvador, which is being paid. We hear $6 million a year, but we don't really know. And we don't know if there's a fee for the president on top of the stated $6 million.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But you have to build the police state. So there are, if I remember this right, 26,000 uniformed customs officers for the Canadian border, the Mexican border, every seaport, and every airport. So if you're going to do Stasi-like control of smuggling, that doesn't begin to be adequate. Okay, so maybe you call on state and local police to help.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But as we discovered during Prohibition, it's hard to police a society against something that most people don't think is wrong. So maybe you'll be able to get some cooperation in Alabama to get the local police there to stop the person who drives a truck into the school parking lot in a school in Birmingham at midnight and opens up the truck and there are tube socks and Nike shoes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Maybe the police will arrest that person one time. Well, they arrest the next one and the next one after that. Now, I don't think it actually is a real vision because I think the whole scheme collapses way faster than the smugglers can get organized and certainly in the police.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But Trump wants to run an authoritarian state, but mostly it has been very easy and successful for him and worryingly so to defy laws. But enforcing laws is a more challenging project. And it's enforcing laws that will be broadly violated and where there's no moral consensus in favor of the laws and where the local police don't want to be your partners. Okay, in Alabama, they'll do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Will the California state police cooperate with the crackdown on tube socks smuggling? I don't know. Doubt it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
I don't think this happens right away because I think retailers have built massive inventories already. Warehouses are full of normal goods at normal prices. And there probably are a couple of quarters where things can be sold at normal prices. And I imagine the tariff scheme collapses before we run out of inventories of tube socks, but maybe not.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Let me be personal about this, because it's not just a matter of mom and dad quarreling. So I was born in 1960. I came of age during the heyday of Canadian anti-Americanism. So Canada has two kinds of anti-Americanism. It has a right-wing variety, which is loyalty to the British Empire, anger at America as basically the daughter who betrayed mom,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And my home province of Ontario, the motto at the bottom of the provincial code of arms is, faithful she began, faithful she remains, in Latin. Faithful to what? To the British crown. Because Ontario was originally settled by, and my part of Ontario where I live in the summer is settled by refugees from the American Revolution, New Yorkers.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But you can't get them out of the El Salvadorian prison you helped to create. We don't believe you. So that's all worth doing. They've also given the Trump administration a pathway to return somebody because they The Trump administration is so obsessed with not losing face. They can never admit they made a mistake, but now there's a nine to zero court order. They're going to have to comply.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
who said, you broke, you know, my neighbor broke his oath of allegiance to our king, but I'm not doing that. I'm moving to Ontario and getting a land grant and raising my family in faith and loyalty to the true king. So that was, there's a conservative faith.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But in the 60s and 70s, because of Vietnam and American racial problems, the left, which had always been a little bit more sympathetic to the dynamism of the American Republic, it turned anti-American too. And so from about 1965 to about 1985, there was a period of, controls on U.S. investment in Canadian industries, controls on U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
investment in Canadian energy, attempts to build state-owned Canadian companies in areas like energy, but other areas too, satellite communication. And as a young person, infatuated with Hayek and Mises and Milton Friedman, I began my political life in opposition to all this. This is expensive. This is crazy. It's making Canadians poor. It is not gaining freedom of action.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
It's the path to becoming Argentina. And my whole first intellectual thought was cross-border cooperation and that Canada's former motherland, Britain, was cooperating with the United States. Canada could do the same. And I... ardently for the U.S.-Canada Free Trade Agreement of the middle 1980s. With my then girlfriend, now wife, we drove around from university campus to university campus.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
I would set up a soapbox because the claim was the treaty was so mysterious. No one could understand. I said, I've read it. I've studied it. Ask me anything about it. And I will tell you that your fears are groundless. And the fears were crazy. And the fears were groundless. And since then, Canada and the United States have entered into ever closer cooperation.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And not only in the realm of trade, but in the realm of national defense, in the realm of counterterrorism, in the world of intelligence sharing. It's a demonstration that you can have all the benefits of shared sovereignty while retaining all the meaning of individual sovereignty. And to watch that be blown up, it's not just like a personal thing about Canada and the United States.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
It's an attack on the most fundamental belief of my intellectual life at the area where, precisely the place where it's most strong. Because if you don't believe in international cooperation between Canada and the United States, then we're in a world of war of state upon state. We're back in some nightmare medieval vision of endless wars of petty state against petty state.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Look, one immediate fact is, if Kamala Harris had won the election in 2024. Right now, the Conservative Party of Canada would be on its way to a crushing victory over some other nominee than Mark Carney. The whole handoff from Trudeau to Carney and then Carney's rise in the polls, that's all a product of a reaction against Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And the Conservative Party is caught in this unsolvable problem where about a quarter of the members of the Conservative Party like Trump and three quarters hate him.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And that opens the way to returning other people who are wrongly held and who never got a hearing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And so that makes it impossible for the party to come up with a coordinated and effective response to Trump because, you know, you can't agree because you'll be overwhelmingly rejected not only by most Canadians, but by most Conservatives. But you also can't disagree too much because then you'll lose an important part of your own base.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And so the conservative message during this campaign has mostly been let's talk about something else than the topic everybody is talking about. And that's never good for a political party, which is, you know, yes, voters, you have your priorities, but we have our priorities. And we choose to talk about our priorities, not your – whammo. You know, that's why they're going to be so badly beaten.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But – Carney is talking about reviving the national economic, the statism. He's talking about making an all-in-Canada car. And he's talked about limits on foreign investment. And these are destructive ideas. But Canada is being pushed toward them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And it's hard to raise the objection that the young David would have raised, which is, for God's sake, you're going to do all this stupidity and for what? You're not even solving a real problem. Well, the old David has to concede. You are addressing, okay, it's a real problem. This may not be the right answer, but it's a real problem. Whereas in 1985, I can say it's an imaginary problem.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Look, we can power a small city with the energy generated by JVL worry. Yes. But I think in this case, the worry is right, but I think it's pointed in the wrong direction. My concern, and I'm not saying I'm right, but I think they will return the first. A nine to zero Supreme Court decision, you start defying those, and now we're on the path to out... lawlessness.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And I think Trump is saving that for the 2026 elections. I don't think he wants to go early. I don't think he wants to have the people in the streets now, especially with the economy in such a shambles. I think the plan is if he's thinking about defying the rules, he's going to do that in the 2026 election season. What I worry about in this case,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
It was my guess that the Supreme Court would come down this way. Having told Trump, you have to have some kind of hearing before you send someone in U.S. power into a prison. They will say, that's it. We've done our work. And so the next big question is, can Trump fire Jerome Powell?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Yeah, no, I'm uprated by my wife, Danielle, because I'm so terrible at remembering to say things like this. But like and subscribe. I just have to learn to do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And the Supreme Court may think, well, we gave one to the never Trumpers on not sending people to foreign prisons without a hearing. We're going to have to give one to Trump on his power to fire the head of the Federal Reserve Board, which is the next critical crisis that is on our way.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Never know that I come from like three generations of merchants. I can never merchandise.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
He has an economic strategy that was unbelievably stupid, and it's visibly failing. And the little amphetamine injection that the economy got from the pause of some of the tariffs, the market has quickly figured out that doesn't mean anything, that the United States is launched in simultaneous trade war with its three most important trading partners, not just China, but Canada and Mexico.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
The Canada and Mexico tariffs are all still there. Interest rates were going to have an 8% mortgage rate in the blink of an eye. American retail is going to stop, not immediately because retailers have built up a lot of inventory of things from China, but there's a trade embargo with China.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
That means for everything from T-shirts to electronic components, sooner or later that embargo is going to mean those items fail and there's a retail and manufacturing crisis in the United States. So Trump needs an excuse. He needs someone to blame. And this is where we get to the sub-rational parts of the Trump brain. There has to be someone else whose fault it is.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And I noticed that the Trump suck-ups in Silicon Valley have begun to say, we need a rate cut. We need a rate cut right now. The Federal Reserve is saying, are you joking? We've got this inflationary crisis headed our way. You can't have a rate cut now. And this is a supply crisis of your own making. We can't give you a monetary exit from a genuine supply crisis you made. No, the answer is no.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Trump needs now a huge hullabaloo to give MAGA people something to shout about and to blame and to point fingers. Jerome Powell is going to be the designated target. While he could wait him out, of course, Trump's psychology means he has to do something. He has to be seen in command. Like Truman firing MacArthur, he will need to fire Powell. He also needs—and this is a little more rational—
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Trump in his first term twice tried to get unacceptable people onto the Federal Reserve. And one was actually literally voted down and the other was denied without a vote. The Republicans in the Senate in first term protected the Federal Reserve. The new, more defeated Republicans of the second term are right now unlikely to do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But if you wait to the end of Powell's term, things may be so bad for Trump that at that point, Republicans begin to show a little bit more spine and say, you know, you can't put you know, your stooge on the Federal Reserve. So this is a better moment. He needs to act. It's a better moment to act.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And I truly fear the Supreme Court won't stop him, not just for Trumpy reasons, but for larger reasons of conservative legal ideology. It is actually quite hard to explain why the president can't fire the head of the Federal Reserve.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
This is a longstanding theory of mine. You have to understand that Trump's career as a businessman since his first bankruptcy in 1989 has been, what contrivance do I need to keep the creditors at bay for the next 24 hours? He has never had long-term plans because he's just been always teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. And politically now, in his first term,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
In retrospect, we can see how much his shiftlessness and incompetence saved America because in his first term, it took him a while to figure out that there was – his main objectives were golf and steal. And he also had kind of in those days some pretty petty – he was stealing single millions of dollars. which showed a lack of imagination.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
It was because he had become such a small businessman in his private life that he was thinking, if I can make a dishonest $3 million here, I've done my week's work. And it never occurred to him, you could make a dishonest $3 billion. You could make a dishonest $30 billion. What are you talking about? So in his second term, he said, I am never thinking in terms of single millions again.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
I have a plan. I know how things work. And I'm going to put a little bit more energy and effort into my presidency that I did round one. And so we're seeing that. So the markets won't like it. But Trump will be in a position where, in 30 or 40 days, where Stock markets are down. Container traffic has stopped between the United States and China.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
He has no allies except El Salvador in this confrontation with the world's second largest economy. And meanwhile, people are going to be paying 8% for their mortgages. And he's going to start railing and ranting about the need to cut interest rates to get the economy moving. He just will need the drama. And firing Powell will take a little bit of time.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
So that gives Fox and friends and his allies in online media something to talk about instead of the gathering recession.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
I'll start with a personal reflection. So through the past 20 years, I had different ideas at a different time. But through the past, my big ideas have been, I believe in markets undergirded by some forms of social insurance. And in 2010, I got drummed out of the conservative world because of the second part of that sentence. I believe too much in social insurance. And that made me a rhino.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And out you go. And you know what? Not wrong. OK, I accept that you guys are in a very libertarian phase. But it's really weird to me right now to be in a phase where the first half of the things, which is I believe in markets. That's what makes me a rhino and a traitor to the conservative cause. Because you know what?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Hayek plus beverage, those names don't mean anything, but free markets to produce the wealth and then some social insurance to protect people from the consequences of markets. I'm ashamed to have to repeat this in a Republican administration, how supply chains work.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
But Howard Luttnick went on TV and said, we need to bring back the manufacture of iPhones because we can't have the Chinese drilling these tiny screws into iPhones. Okay, well, what would it mean to bring back the iPhone industry? And right now, since there's a trade embargo with China, nothing's going to be moving. We have to. Well, as he said, iPhones are held together at the base.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
I got a case here. But inside there are two tiny little screws with five-headed heads. A week ago, I knew nothing about them. Because I live in an advanced capitalist society, I don't have to know how things work. They just work. I do my job. And then through the miracle of markets and prices, things arrive. And I don't know often how. I don't even know what goes into them. But now I do.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
So the way you make a tiny screw is you start with a piece of wire. It can be made of any kind of metal, brass, but typically some kind of steel. And you extend the wire at enormous length and you slice it into tiny little pieces. Those pieces are then coated in some kind of corrosion-resistant material, nickel, for example, or else zinc, but in the iPhones it's nickel.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And then there are other little tiny slices which become the head. And they are shaped and cut and attached. And all of this is both tremendously laborious and requires extreme skill in the operator. It turns out it's a highly skilled, and it takes a long time to learn how to be a skilled operator in the tiny screw industry.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
So the question is now, okay, we've shored the iPhone industry in the United States. Where are the tiny screws coming from? Well, they're not coming from China because there's now a hundred and bazillion, bazillion percent tariff on China. We've effectively embargoed them. So that means we need to step up a tiny screw industry right here in the United States.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
That will not be easy and it will not be quick and it will not be cheap. But there's one other problem along the way is that I mentioned how they do all these things to the wire. The things that do that are big machines made in the USA of steel. And Trump has also embargoed the steel that goes in.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
So not in pursuit of this imaginary tiny screw industry, he has put tariffs on the actual industry that the United States has, the machines that make the tiny screws. Formerly, the United States made the screw making machines, sold the machines to China. China made the screws. It went into the value chain.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Now, just out of sheer ignorance and malice, they have not only cut us off from tiny screws, but they have put an enormous burden on the people who make the equipment that makes the tiny screws.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
Economic efficiency sounds kind of bloodless. I want to give a little bit more inspiration. Supply chains are not, yes, they're economically efficient.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
They're also realization of beautiful idea of people cooperating across vast distances without ever knowing each other, producing wonderful things, producing the fruits of commerce and peace and prosperity, cooperating with people they've never met, whose existence they may be unaware of. So the tiny screw, it's coated in, I mentioned it was coated, it's coated in nickel.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
The nickel comes from Canada or maybe from Indonesia. And the people who are making the nickel have no idea what use does this nickel go to. And the idea that it's the cell phone in their pocket may contain some of the nickel they mined or refined. And they never knew it. That's a kind of beautiful idea.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
And then the entrepreneur who is coming up with some new concept using the phone and texting a business partner across the other side of the world or talking on FaceTime in real time, or WhatsApp, I hope not Signal, in real time on the other side of the world. These are people who are linked in this harmonious, peaceful commerce.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
I mean, I've been very caught up in the story of free trade all my intellectual life. It's one of my foundational causes. And it's not a grim, efficient process. accountant idea. It's a beautiful idea. It's an inspiring idea. And you only are reminded how beautiful and inspiring it is when someone threatens it because he believes in aggression and force and domination and exploitation.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1019: David Frum: It's Too Late to Stop the Pain
I can't see the beauty of global cooperation.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And renewable energy. So there are budget cuts. There are personnel cuts. There also is this immigration squeeze, because the United States has often worked by attracting talent from all over the world, setting them to work in American universities. Many of those people then stay for the rest of their lives.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Or science being so global, there are many people in the scientific world who have spouses or partners who come from other countries. And their spouses or partners are under pressure, causing those scientists to reconsider their their own careers. Tell me a little bit about the way that the immigration pressures affect science.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Hello, and welcome to episode four of The David Frum Show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic. Thank you for all who watched and listened to the first three episodes. All of us at The Atlantic and at The David Frum Show are so gratified by the extraordinary response to our first three episodes, and we hope to continue to meet your expectations in this and future episodes.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
About a third of American children fail to get the full suite of vaccines that the CDC's Centers for Disease Control recommends. And about 7% of American children go unvaccinated against measles, mumps, and rubella. These are invitations to human harm and human suffering.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Let's talk about your special area of expertise, which is infectious diseases. There seems to be a special malice toward innovation and research in that area. Under Robert Kennedy Jr., the Department of Health and Human Services has announced they're going to do all these investigations into well-attested vaccines whose safety and efficacy has been proven for dozens of years.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Kennedy's promised some kind of big review in September. I don't know why he's taking that long. He knows the answer he wants and is going to enforce. He could do it tomorrow. Why the pretense that there's any real work here? And we are seeing this extraordinary outbreak or outbreaks of measles across the United States. How does that connect with government policy?
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
How alarmed should people be about these outbreaks?
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And they come about because of a rise in American attitudes of ignorance and unawareness about the causes of disease and how diseases are prevented. Let me read you a recent statement from the Kaiser Family Foundation, an important source of health and medical research information. Here's Kaiser.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And sometimes your arm is a little sore. And sometimes you have a reaction to the introduction of the agent in the vaccine. And sometimes if you are phobic, the vaccination is followed by all kinds of psychosomatic symptoms. And psychosomatic symptoms appear to the receiver of those symptoms just as real. as actually symptoms caused by organic illnesses in the body.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
So people have a lot of reasons for attributing the problems in their lives to this disruption, especially if... I am surprised to discover how many people have this feeling. They are phobic about having a needle inserted into their body.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
But one of the things that bothers me a lot is an intellectual movement right now in the United States, very properly, to look back at the COVID experience and to learn lessons from it, as, of course, exactly should happen. And there's a lot of criticism of... measures that were taken that may be overshot. And in particular, the decision to keep schools closed past the fall of 2020.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
States where schools open pretty rapidly have done much better by children than states where schools were kept closed for long periods of time. But this is essentially a politically right-coded movement, or when it's done by more liberal people, they're people who are speaking to right-coded audiences.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And I just read an important book published by University Press by two liberal-leading academics and went through all the things that were done wrong, and many of which I agree with, keeping the schools closed too long. The book was called How Politics Failed Us. And they have one paragraph about vaccine resistance because they say, well, that's inherent in the population.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Politics didn't cause that. Well, of course, politics killed those people. There's a lot of research. They're not randomly distributed. They are concentrated in red states and red counties. If you lived in a red state or red county, your leaders, political and cultural, the people you looked up to, risked your life and got many of your co-adherents killed in order to score political points.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
When it comes to false claims that the measles vaccines have been proven to cause autism, or that vitamin A can prevent the measles infections, or that getting the measles vaccine is more dangerous than becoming infected with measles, less than 5% of adults say they think these claims are definitely true, and much larger share say they are definitely false.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
I mean, it's astonishing. It's shocking. It's a crime. And we've accepted it as a normal part of politics.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
I want to take that load of gild off the side. I think when scientists talk to the general public, they assume some basic grade eight familiarity with science. So it is the most natural thing in the world for scientists to say something. Square bracket, state of knowledge today. As you say, I have heard from many people. Well, they said one thing in March. They said a different thing in May.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
They said a different thing in September. How can we trust them? I think this is not religion. That's how you know you should trust them. If they'd said the same thing all the way through, they'd be priests, not scientists.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And the scientists assumed some basic literacy from the public, and they also assumed some good faith in the political system, where it's not the job of scientists to communicate the science. It's the job of political leaders. And those political leaders are unused to an atmosphere of such malice and distortion as existed in 2020 and even more in 2021.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
That's the good news, returning to Kaiser. However, at least half of adults are uncertain about whether these claims are true or false, falling in the malleable middle and saying each claim is either probably true or probably false.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
I think a lot of what happened during COVID was there had been a Republican president during 2020. He had mishandled the disease in many important ways. Then there was a Democratic president in 2021. Things began to be handled somewhat better. And there was a political imperative to make 2021 a failure.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Can I ask you about how powerful the stop-start button is for the scientific endeavor? So right now, the government is pressing stop on Parkinson's, stop on Alzheimer's, stop on many vaccines. Five years from now, if you press start, four years from now, if you press start, how quickly does the start ignition sequence resume after the stop button that has been pressed today?
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
While at least half of adults express some level of uncertainty, partisans differ in the shares who say each of these false claims is definitely probably true, with Republicans and independents at least twice as likely as Democrats to believe or lean toward believing each false claim about measles.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
If you were to talk to people in the Trump administration about what they were doing, And if they were to answer you, which they tend not to do, but if they did, I think they would say, look, we're not waging a war on science. We're waging a war on DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. We're waging a war.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
We're trying to stop all these crazy client scientists who are bringing us news that either we don't think is true or that we don't want to hear. cracking down on the people who warn us about Russian disinformation because we think that harms many of our friends and allies who are spreading Russian disinformation, often for pay.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
One third of Republicans and a quarter of independents say it is definitely or probably true that the MMR vaccines have been proven to cause autism compared to one in 10 Democrats. Three in 10 Republicans and independents say it is definitely or probably true that vitamin A can prevent measles, compared to 14% of Democrats.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And I think they also have a sense of, there may be some sense of ideology that this research anyway should be done to the private sector, not the public sector. So we're not waging a war on science as such. We have a very specific list of targets. Do you see any merit to any of that? Is there anything that one could concede to the case that they're prosecuting?
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
As we end, remind us of what the stakes are here. How close are we to breakthroughs in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and other diseases that seem to be yielding to scientific investigation as we speak?
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And one in five Republicans and independents believe or lean toward believing that the measles vaccine is more dangerous than measles infection, compared to about one in 10 Democrats. Republicans are believing things that are putting their own children at risk. We see again here how the mega cult is becoming a death cult that consumes the lives of its believers.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Thank you so much to Ellen Bernstein. Now, some questions from viewers and listeners. The first comes from Nathan. In Donald Trump's first term, there were innumerable norm violations. The administration's M.O. seemed to be, if there isn't a law explicitly prohibiting an action, we can take that action.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
After Trump won, why were there no efforts to codify any of the gray areas or the ones that everyone had previously thought no president would ever do that? Is it because people wanted to keep the possibility of using those same tactics open to themselves in the future? If so, what do you think that says about the direction of the country and the culture within the government?
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Now, first, I want to stress that there was one very important reform after the Trump administration, and that was the reform of the Electoral Count Act.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
The law now makes clear, as it mostly made clear before, but now unmistakably makes clear, that the vice president of the United States does not have the authority to substitute his or her own judgment for the judgment of the people of the states in the electoral count process. So one of the very worst things that Donald Trump tried to do
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
use violence to intimidate his vice president into overthrowing the 2020 election, that can't be done anymore. And so that's a change. But for the most part, I think that's right. I think we have been reluctant to. Part of it, I think, is just it's hard for Americans to take on board the magnitude of the criminality in the first Trump term.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Hundreds of thousands of Americans died preventably from the COVID virus. Your chance of dying from COVID was about the same whether you were a Republican or a Democrat. The disease did not discriminate by political affiliation. But after vaccines became available, the disease began to discriminate.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
We maybe have made a serious mistake about that as we see the even greater magnitude of criminality in the second Trump term. But I would also caution there is a problem with trying to write things into law. The American culture and the American mentality are very legalistic. Americans tend to assume that the law is the divide.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And they will often say, if something is not illegal, that means it's okay for me to do. But in life, there are lots of things that are not literally illegal, but that you still shouldn't do. And in a free society, we don't write down everything that could be an offense and try to turn it into law. We have to rely to some degree on the public spirit and decency of people.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And that needs to be especially true with people in the highest reaches of the land. You know, we talked about this last week with Peter Keisler, the former attorney general under George W. Bush. To some degree, democracy is going to have to be the answer here. We cannot write laws for everything. We can't anticipate every contingency.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
What we can say instead is with the famous prayer of John Adams that is carved into the metal piece of the East Room, let none but honest and wise men, update that to men and women, let none but honest and wise men and women rule under this roof. We have seen what happens when there is an abuser and we may have outrun the limits of law. from KC.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
It seems to me that there is an argument that Trump and Republican legislators are acting as if there will never be another Democratic majority or administration that might hold investigations or hearings into their behavior. This leads me to believe that the 26 and 28 elections won't be rigged.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Rather, I'm beginning to believe that Trump will look for ways, a national emergency perhaps, not to hold them at all. Your thoughts? Am I worrying needlessly? No one is worrying needlessly when they worry about the integrity of the 2026 and 2028 elections. I worry about it all the time. But we need to focus what it is exactly we're worried about.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
That for Donald Trump to try to turn off the elections altogether by declaring a national emergency and calling out the army and using powers left over from the Cold War and World War II, that's a constitutional crisis. In the end, that is the kind of scenario that is met by people in the streets and is met by officers of the army refusing to obey illegal orders from the president.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
I think that case is so intense that we can't plan for it. What we can plan for are the things that we can see that are already underway. And those are attempts to sabotage vote counts, make it difficult for the Democrats to fundraise or any opponent of Donald Trump to fundraise.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Suddenly, people in blue towns and blue states began to survive the disease at much higher rates than people in red towns and red states. Those deaths were overwhelmingly concentrated in areas where people were loyal to Republican ideas and listened to Republican influencers. The price of believing your favorite right-of-center influencer could have been your own life.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
and to concentrate sabotaging efforts in the states that are most likely to swing one way or another, the Wisconsin's, the North Carolina's, the Georgia's. It's a state-level problem.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
So where I think your energy needs to go is in focusing attention on your state governors, state legislators, and state courts to make sure that they will uphold honest, free, and fair elections in the respective states. We have seen the enormous pressure in the state of North Carolina to prepare a false outcome in 2026.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Citizen vigilance has been mobilized and citizen vigilance needs to stay mobilized. Again, it's a democratic problem and your attention is the best answer. So if there's something you want to do between now and 2026, make sure that the vote will be honest in the states where the vote is most in doubt. Last, from Josh. I'm a high school government teacher.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
So much of my teaching is centered on hope and optimism about our civic system and our citizenry. Hope and optimism felt like a lie in the Trump era. Is there a hopeful and optimistic message that properly addresses the current climate that I can give to my students?
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Now, as I'm sure Josh well understands, it's not the place of a teacher to tell students, particularly near voters like those in high school, what they should think or who they should support. Many students will have many different views, and that's as it should be. And all of the points of view should, of course, be treated with attention and respect in the classroom.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
But I think a message that a teacher can communicate is to say to the students, this is a moment where their country really needs them. And it's an honor and a privilege to be alive at a time when your country needs you.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And without telling them the exact nature of that need and without in any way presuming to direct their actions, to make them feel like their vote matters and their actions matter. You know, as we've discussed today, a lot of the secret weapon of Trumpism is cynicism and despair and a feeling like, oh, well, things are unfolding without me. LOL, nothing matters. But everything matters.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Your students matter. Teach them that and watch them be better citizens. Thank you so much for the questions. Please send next week's to producer at the davidfromshow.com. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Remember, please, it matters a lot to the algorithm gods that you rate and review and like and subscribe, whether you listen on an Audible podcast or whether you view us on YouTube.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Thanks for your comments on YouTube. Those also really matter. And I try to read as many of them as I can. I don't always respond, but I see so many of them and I'm so grateful for them and so often touched by their warmth. Thank you for watching this episode. See you again next week. I'm David Frum. This episode of The David Frum Show was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Abed is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I'm David Frum. Thank you for listening.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
What kind of political movement sacrifices its own people in that way to make some point to make money or to score a political jab against an opponent? It's a little hard to explain exactly what they thought they were doing. It's not hard to explain it.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
It's a little unpleasant to contemplate the explanation of what they thought they were doing, but we can measure the effect of what they were doing in lost lives.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And now the spread of measles and the shrinkage of measles vaccines, according to political affiliation, we can see the same horrible process of death by political partisanship reoccurring in the middle 2020s as at the beginning of the 2020s.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Against this spread of weaponized ignorance, what is needed is the clearest possible messages from everyone in positions of authority, whether public or private. that it is your duty as a parent to see that your child is vaccinated against preventable disease. And if your children are unvaccinated, you have failed in your duty as a parent.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
My guest today is Alan Bernstein, Director of Global Public Health at Oxford University. Alan Bernstein there coordinates all the health and medical research across the vast domain of Oxford University and tries to ensure that scientists talk to each other and talk to the public in ways that benefit the safety of the whole planet.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And that is a message that needs to be spread by everyone who's in a position to spread a message.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And the authorities should also say that in the hard cases where it can be shown that a child died because of an intentional failure by the parent to vaccinate the child, that parent should be held to account in much the same way as, in my opinion, if the child died because of an unsecured firearm in the child's home left there by a parent, the parent should be held to account.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Protecting your child is your most important duty as a parent. Put the gun in a safe and make sure the child is vaccinated. And yet, instead, we're seeing people put into positions of high authority who are not only hesitant to spread that message, but in fact, are the leading hoaxsters and fraudsters against the vaccines.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
At the head of the Department of Health and Human Services is the most notorious proponent of letting people suffer the measles death, of spreading false claims, outrageous claims, debunked claims, exploded claims against the vaccines. And by the way... demeaning and insulting people who struggle with autism. People with autism can live meaningful lives.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Yet according to our present secretary, there are no better than wasted lives and useless people who need to be counted in some kind of registry so we can keep tab of their numbers for what sinister purpose who can barely begin to imagine, but clearly not for a purpose of respect and dignity.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And because of this outrageous and cruel lack of regard for people who are on the autism spectrum, many of which spans a lot of cases, both worse cases and less bad cases. He is urging Americans or he has over his lifetime urged Americans to leave their children unvaccinated.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And the secretary of health and human services is staffing his agency with people who are at mealy mouth or worse in the fight against this preventable, unnecessary cause of death. The anti-vax ideology comes from some strange places. It comes, I think, in the first place from a myth of a benign nature.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
I think one of the reasons why it tended to maybe before the Trump era be so prevalent on certain parts of like the vegetarian left. If you believe that nature is kind and good and benign and the only wickedness is human.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And if you are unaware of how massively human lives were at risk from disease before the modern era, it may seem like, why am I intruding into my beautiful child's body, this sharp needle that makes them squawk for a moment, and introducing these foreign substances? Why would I do that when nature wants us all to live and rejoice? Well, nature doesn't want you to live and rejoice.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Nature is utterly indifferent to your hopes and wishes. And if it were up to nature, half your children would be dead. And you'd be dead too by age 50 at the latest. Nature is not our friend. Nature is a resource that we must protect and steward. But it is not our friend. It does not wish us well. It doesn't have wishes at all.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
I think some of the anti-vax cult also comes from another myth, the myth of malign government. Not just that government is inefficient as it often is and clumsy as it often is.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Before that, Alan served as the founder and president of the Canadian Institutes for Health Research, a coordinating body for health research across all of Canada, much like the Centers for Disease Control in the United States. And before that, he rose to fame and eminence as one of the world's leading researchers in cancer and virology. So I'm very glad to be joined today by Alan Bernstein.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
but that actually there's some kind of secret conspiracy up there of people who, for some bizarre and nefarious purpose, want to prevent Americans from enjoying the beneficent benignity of nature and instead want to inject them with all of these artificial products like seatbelts.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
I think this is the part of the myth that has gained the upper hand most recently, this myth of conspiracy and government in other high places. But the truth, nature is not benign and government is not malign. But there are a lot of fraudsters out there. That's the truth. And they have more ways of reaching people than ever before.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And the cost of these frauds is becoming ever more terrible in lost human lives. So as you listen to my talk today about Alan Bernstein, we're going to talk about many of these issues. I think we're going to try to talk as dispassionately as possible. But as I talk about them, I'm really angry about this. I'm really angry about this.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
It should be one of those things that just as there are no Republican and Democrat ways to sweep the streets, shovel the snow, there should be no Republican or Democrat way, disagreement about protecting our children from preventable diseases. All of us should salute vaccination. It's one of the most magnificent achievements of human civilization.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
One of the ways that marks us off from all the sad eras that went before us, when parents had to grieve half their children before their third birthday or before their 20th birthday. We have an opportunity to live better, healthier lives than ever before in history. How could we refuse such a thing?
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And how much should we condemn and revile those people who deceive their fellow citizens into refusing this magnificent gift of science and technology? So we're going to speak dispassionately with Alan Bernstein. I'm not dispassionate about this. I hope you won't be dispassionate either. But first, a quick break.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Alan Bernstein, welcome to The David Frum Show. Thank you for joining us. You have spent your career as a practitioner of science, as a director of science, as an advisor to governments about science. It looks to those of us who are not scientists, Like the government of the United States is engaged in a campaign against science of almost unprecedented historic proportions.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
As you and I speak, there is a measles outbreak in the United States. Actually, there are 10 separate outbreaks, 800 cases, three dead as of the time we speak. There are dramatic firings and cuts to government agencies, the National Institutes for Health, the vaccine program. progress toward cures for Alzheimer's and Parkinson's is supposed to have been slowed or maybe halted altogether.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And of course, there are these extraordinary pressures on medical and scientific research at universities. So if you would offer your assessment of how much has been done to science in the United States in these past weeks.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
And first, some preliminary remarks on the subjects we'll be talking about in today's discussion. As I record this episode in late April 2025, the United States is gripped by an outbreak of measles. More than 800 cases have been diagnosed in 24 states. Three people are dead, two of them unvaccinated school-age children, one of them an unvaccinated adult.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
From my lay understanding, there are four main categories of scientific institutions that have come under different kind of pressure. There are the direct practitioners of science within the United States government, organizations like NASA, the Aeronautics Agency, NOIA, the Oceanographic and Atmospheric Agency, the direct practitioners of science inside the government under pressure.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
There are also the government funding institutions, as you said, the National Institutes for Health. These don't do the work themselves. They make grants to others. They're under pressure. There's the kind of sword and shield of technological application at the Department of Defense.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
We are only about one third of the way through the year 2025. And yet the United States has suffered nearly triple the number of cases of measles in 2025 as it did in all of 2024. The measles is caused, of course, by a pathogen. But it is enabled by human ignorance and human neglect. Rising numbers of children are going unvaccinated.
The David Frum Show
America’s Pro-Disease Movement
Agencies in the Department of Defense that do cyber warfare, cyber security, cyber innovation, they've come under pressure. And finally, fourth, so first, direct science inside the government, second, funding, third, swords and shields, and fourth and last, the universities that get government grants but where government doesn't direct how the money will be spent. Is that the lay of the land?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Well, but as we play this game out, who wins? Because in the end, the court counts on the government to comply. And if the government doesn't comply and again doesn't comply, if it shows contempt and the Department of Justice refuses to do anything about the contempt, at the end of this chain of escalation, doesn't the executive win?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Hello. Welcome to the third episode of The David Fromm Show. I'm David Fromm, a staff writer at The Atlantic. This week, my guest will be Peter Keisler, former Acting Attorney General of the United States under President George W. Bush, former head of the Civil Division at the Department of Justice, a veteran of the conservative legal community.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Because there's been no show of proof, no hearing of any kind. United States law allows for quite expedited process to remove people from the country, to deport them. You don't get a big trial. You don't get a jury trial. You are moved rapidly because the theory of the case is first, you don't have a right to immigrate to the United States. So you have not been deprived of your rights.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
On this larger question of defiance, I think I find myself thinking about it a lot. Are the president's threats to Jerome Powell at the Federal Reserve? Now, the rule we all thought we knew is that the president of the United States cannot fire the chairman of the Federal Reserve for policy reasons.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And Jerome Powell has, as recently as last week in an interview at the Economic Club of Chicago, stated that's the conventional view. You cannot fire me for policy reasons. But we also used to have a strong tradition that was observed by every president from Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama. The president couldn't fire the head of the FBI for policy reasons.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And some presidents like Ronald Reagan and Obama cohabited with the FBI director appointed by the opposite party for six or seven years before the term expired. And the one case where an FBI director was removed was by President Clinton.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And that was a case where he inherited an FBI director from the Bush administration and also a big dossier from the Bush administration saying, please fire this guy for fiddling his expense accounts, which may or may not have been fair. That's bracket that. But H.W. Bush's attorney general Barr, the same as Trump's second attorney general, had said, look, we've compiled this dossier.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
We think you should get rid of him. And the Clinton people squirmed and stalled and tried to entice the director to leave voluntarily and fired him only at the end, but not for a political reason, for cause, the alleged fiddling with the expense accounts. Trump fired two FBI directors, both for political reasons in his first term and a second, and then appointed –
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
a creature of his as FBI director and got him confirmed by the Senate and a deputy who's an even more embarrassing creature if possible than the director. And that tradition is over. The FBI director is no longer independent of the president. The FBI director is a complete tool of the president. Why couldn't that happen to the Federal Reserve?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And secondly, once you're removed from the United States, you remain a free person. You are sent back to the place you came from or some other place to which you have some connection. And then you're free to go about your business. You're not sent to a prison, not sent to a prison for life.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
But as I talk about this, the thing that has most gripped my mind with worry and anxiety is not only the effect on the individuals themselves, some of whom may be genuinely innocent, but the effect on those who are sending human beings to a prison without a hearing.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
But when Trump says things like that, there's a whole school of thought, which was, well, Trump may say these things, but he would never actually do them. And that school of thought looks pretty battered. I mean, after January 6th, you have to assume that anything Trump is talking about doing is something he might actually do.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
The United States government is now building an apparatus of lawyers, of officials of all kinds, who plan and think every day, how can we apprehend people on American soil and bundle them to a prison without giving them any show of a hearing? They're building skills and competencies at non-due process forms of arrest and incarceration. that are going to be very hard to limit.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
He's going to need a scapegoat because the tariff policy is an immediate disaster. There's no public backing for it. And the Federal Reserve has always been, and when he got into trouble in 2018, the Federal Reserve was his favorite villain then. And Trump thinks like a lifelong debtor. He always thinks there's nothing wrong with this business that cheaper credit couldn't fix.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
One of the things I think we've all discovered, I mean, we must have known it, but we never thought about it, was there's a background law to a lot of powers of the president, which is the law, the president of the United States would never do that. So we don't have to write that down because the president of the United States would never do that.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
So is there a law that the president of the United States can't run a profit-making business while president or sell scam meme coins? Well, we don't have to put that in writing because the president would never do that. So the president did it. So now we have this strange spectacle where there's this powerful agency created or whatever. It's not even an agent. What do you call Doge?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
What is its status? It's an entity. It's an entity that's firing people, cutting budgets, impounding funds. And all of this is overseen nominally by somebody who has never, I think, even been photographed, but in practice by a hugely powerful and wealthy businessman who has never divested himself from any of his other businesses.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Now, are there legalities here or are we in a post-legality world where legalities don't matter anymore?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
There are many kinds of immigration status that people present in the United States have. There are citizens, of course. There are permanent residents. There are people here on many different kinds of visas. Now, you can lose your visa rapidly for many reasons.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
But the president can dispense with a lot of, for example, the classification rules. Can the president say, look, I know you've got a lot of SEC matters pending, but if you want to go ahead and fire everybody at the SEC so these matters won't be resolved for the next hundred years, go ahead, be my guest. You have the power. Is that one of those, but the president would never do that?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Or is there some law that would restrain the president's ability to say, yeah, you can gut the SEC so it will never get around to enforcing any of these matters against you?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
I remember when I was a Canadian citizen in the United States on a student visa, we were warned, if you got into a bar fight, you could theoretically lose your student visa. Now, in those days, that meant that you'd have to go back to Canada and go to school in Canada, which is not the end of the world.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Well, this is where I want to invite you to look ahead to something that worries me a lot. And I don't have any kind of answer to this. I don't even know how to begin to think about it. But the United States has a strong tradition of turning the page on past chapters of political history. The outgoing president departs.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And even if the successor thinks that outgoing president may have done some things that were wrong, there's a very real-world example that during Watergate, it was – uncovered that Lyndon Johnson had done many of the same financial things that Richard Nixon was accused of doing, and more so, that would, in the post-Watergate world, look like violations of practice or even of law.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Strong impulse, turn the page, don't look back. Once Nixon left office, the pardon and don't look back, and so on, it has always been. And it becomes not just a technical matter of do we look at the acts of past presidents, but there's also been a kind of acceptance of them.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
So enough time passes, and however much you didn't like Ronald Reagan or Jimmy Carter, that 20 years after they're out of office, everyone agrees to pretend they were, you know, they're to be chiseled out of marble and regarded as stalwarts and paraguns. One of the things that Trump people complain about is when Trump left office in 2021, he didn't get that treatment, right?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
In today's America, that could mean you could lose your student visa and be accused of terrorism and a bag put over your head and be put into a car and sent to a prison in El Salvador for the rest of your life. Now, maybe that doesn't happen in every case. Maybe that doesn't happen in many cases.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
There were investigations that because his acts had been so egregious that he was prosecuted in all kinds of ways, or at least investigated the process. He was able to stop most of the prosecutions, but he was treated in a different way from any other ex-president. To which the answer is, well, he behaved in a different way. And he's now returned to the presidency.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
He's doing even more egregious things. And the cycle, if and when there is a post-Trump presidency, if and when people of different views ever reclaim any executive power, they're going to confront either these acts are so extreme, you can't turn the practice of oblivion on them.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
But then we're into a new kind of world that looks a lot more like French history than American history, where we're digging up the bodies of dead kings and throwing them to the jackals.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
But if some staffer at Doge has unloaded vast amounts of proprietary government data into a computer where they shouldn't be, and is maybe hoarding them or even trying to sell them, that person is going to have some kinds of legal liabilities in his own right. And the defense will be, someone told me to do it.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
But there are people in the employ of the United States government, paid by taxpayers, to think about how can we daily broaden the category of people who can be arrested and detained and imprisoned without any showing to any authority of all, without any opportunity to make themselves heard, without any evaluation by an independent fact finder, by any of the things we call due process.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
How does that rebuilding go? I mean, there is a practice where Lawyers, no disrespect, tend to respond to breaches of norms by writing laws. And so after every scandal, you have this kind of museum of the scandal, which is the law written after the fact of outlaw the scandal because it wasn't maybe even illegal before. And so you get ever greater accretions of law.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And the bad practices or the bad consequences of all this law is you encourage the very American way of thinking, which is if it's not outright prohibited, then I'm free to do it.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
In Trump 1, just generally, the conservative legal establishment we knew, all the federal society people we were friends with, so many cases still are, that turned out to be quite a bulwark against the worst things that the president wanted to do in Trump 1. During the interregnum between the two Trumps, it began to crumble.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
You found a lot of people who one would have thought knew better making arguments to protect Trump that were obviously opportunistic for Trump one time only. And now in Trump 2, It's not just legal weirdos from strange places in American life, but it is a lot of very distinguished people are ready to do the work to enable Donald Trump to break what everybody used to think were laws.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
How do we think about this? What do we do about it? Does any of this cast a backward glance on the conservative legal project or is there a new conservative legal project that we're going to need to do to incorporate kind of concepts of morality along with concepts of law?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Is there a general rule, or is it so particular in each case, where you could say to a young person who intended to do good and who was thinking of serving in the second Trump administration, look, here are the rules where you might be able to do good, and here are the rules where you might not be? Or would your advice to them just be, stay away? This is all going to end in ruin and disaster.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Due process is not just one thing. American law, the American Constitution, specify different kinds of process for different kinds of crime. The crime of treason, for example, is defined in the Constitution. It is waging war upon the United States or giving aid and comfort to its enemies. And the Constitution then lists some very strict rules that have to be met to prosecute somebody for treason.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
My very last question. You have had a distinguished career in private practice. You mentioned law firms just now. Why are the law firms buckling in the way that they are?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
I think the message from the federal courts through Trump 1 and through the interval between Trump 1 and Trump 2 is, don't look to us. This isn't our job. It's your job. And maybe we all need to heed that message and say, you know what? The courts aren't going to save us. They can do some things. But this is our job. And we have to do it.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Thanks so much to Peter Keisler for joining the David Frum Show. I always learn so much from him. I have learned so much from him for so many years. I'm so grateful he joined us today. Now, some questions from viewers and listeners. Let me thank everyone who's been sending in these questions. We really are impressed by the volume and flow and the thoughtfulness of the questions.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
The rules for armed robbery and other things are not even as strict as they are, not as strict as that. Then there are rules for criminal prosecution. Then there are rules for immigration hearings and there are other kinds of rules. We've all encountered traffic courts. You get a hearing if you want one. If you don't, you can choose to pay the ticket or you can contest the ticket.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
This week, I was only able to select three. Please continue to send them. We will be selecting more in the future. But let me begin with a question from John in Richmond, Virginia. Why is it much more politically acceptable to attack Democratic constituencies, cities, and blue states, but not Republican constituencies, rural areas, and red states?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Republicans compete to see who has more contempt for the former, and everyone seems to accept that Democratic voters should not expect to be treated as equal citizens under a Republican administration, but not the other way around. Well, John, is it acceptable? I notice you don't accept it.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
You know, a long time ago, President Roosevelt represented one of his cabinet members, Postmaster General, who was also the functional head of the Democratic Party. He had said something dismissive, the Postmaster General, about Republicans in rural areas. And Roosevelt said to him, this is never wise. You don't denigrate anybody. We need every vote and everywhere.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And indeed, that year, President Roosevelt won the vote in Kansas and other Midwestern states because he had practiced a politics of respect. Republicans do this not because it's acceptable, but because they've given up on competing in great parts of the country. And Democrats refrain from doing it because they continue to compete in great parts of the country.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
We have two political coalitions in the United States right now. One is the tightly regulated. bounded Republican coalition with its strict upper limits and its lack of interest in competing in the areas of the country where probably more than half the population lives, and a much baggier, looser Democratic coalition, it's never good practice to insult anybody.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
You will always be surprised by votes that it might be potentially available. And it's just indiscipline and misbehavior for Republicans to do the opposite. It's part of the self-indulgence, I think, that is intended to impel Republican politics in the Trump era. It's not good for them. It's not wise. And the lesson is not, why can't we be as obnoxious as them?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
But when will they learn to stop being so obnoxious themselves? A second question comes from a reader who identifies himself as an immigrant from Africa. He said, some time ago, you said in one of your interactions with other podcasts that that you want to reclaim the term globalist, which the MAGA folks use as pejorative.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
How important do you think reclaiming such terms as globalist and globalization is in accepting the inevitable interconnectedness and interdependence economically, financially, commercially of the global community in the 21st century and beyond? You know, when a word gets contaminated, there's usually a strong reason why the people who contaminate the word want to contaminate it.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
He had clerked for Supreme Court Justice Kennedy and for Judge Robert Bork. I have known Peter also as a friend for nearly half a century. He is someone in whom I've... enormous confidence from whom I have great respect. And I think as you listen to him today, you will see why, because of his extraordinary breadth of interest and depth of knowledge. I'm so grateful that he joined us.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And then those on the other side have to think very hard about whether it's worthwhile to try to rescue the word or not. So the word globalist, is used to connect together a series of ideas, some very popular, some less so, and some quite crazy.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And then you don't get a jury of your peers. You don't get any of the other apparatus of criminal law, but you still get some kind of process. Always the law says the word of authority is not to be taken for its own sake. And we have that practice, not just to constrain authority, but to allow all of us to live lives of dignity.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
So globalism is sometimes used to refer to advocacy for free trade, free movement of capital, investment goods, which as we're now discovering, most Americans support and especially support when someone tries to take those things away. It can also mean a reference to the apparatus of global governance that makes this trade, makes these flows possible. These things don't just happen by themselves.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
The United States and other advanced countries are bound together in a series of arrangements, the World Health Organization, conventions on postage and moving parcels, rules on intellectual property, all kinds of institutions like the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. Now, these institutions are harder to understand. They have many different missions.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Some are more popular and others are not. And I think people who use the term global and globalist as pejoratives are trying to link something that is generally approved of, which is international trade, to things that people find more mysterious and maybe threatening, which are the institutions that make international trade possible.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
It is also, I suppose, linked to feelings about immigration, which are more complicated than feelings about trade and goods and services and capital.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And finally, I think it is intended to suggest the back of all of these arrangements lies some shadowy conspiracy, maybe Jewish, maybe some other kind of conspiracy that is manipulating the lives of people and controlling our thoughts through 5G telephones or whatever paranoid conspiracy has the upper hand that week.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
I think the term global and globalist are worth fighting for because, as we've discovered, you can't surrender part of this project and hope to keep the other parts alive. Once you accept the idea that there's some kind of shadowy conspiracy that is making institutions work, you weaken the ability to defend international trade and other international benefits.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
The Trump administration has singled out for attack the World Health Organization. Now, it is only thanks to the World Health Organization with its admittedly many, many problems that we have any eyes into what is going on inside China at all. And China is a place where epidemics do tend to originate for reasons that it's fascinating to speculate about, but ultimately don't matter.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
They just again and again, epidemics going back into the middle years of the 20th century have tended to originate in China. So you want eyes and ears. The World Health Organization is a way to do it. If you denigrate that because you have succumbed to some crazy conspiracy theory, you do yourself no good.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And if globalist and globalism are used as synonyms for anti-Jewish prejudice, then I think you need to take it head on. Last question comes from Jamie, California. As someone deeply disturbed by what's happening, I'm at a loss for what meaningful immediate action I can take. Like many, I feel shocked by our country's descent into autocracy and kleptocracy, but also paralyzed by it.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
What can individuals like me actually do right now that might truly move the needle instead of just waiting helplessly for the midterms? You know, there was a saying during the first Trump term, LOL, nothing matters. And I always answered that by saying, actually, everything matters. It's just that there's a lot of everything.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
The needle is enormous, and its movements are often imperceptible to the individual eye. But that doesn't mean that when you apply whatever force you have to moving that needle, however little you see the needle moving, that doesn't mean it's not moving. It is moving, just so, so slowly and with such weight. And all our individual strengths are one by one so limited, but together so powerful.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
A thing it means to live in a free society is you can encounter the look of a police officer without fear, that you do not feel like you must cringe and defer. You do not feel you are in the hands of someone who can do anything to you at any whim.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
I am a great believer in elections over movements. There is a time and place when people need to come into the streets, and that is when the possibility of free and fair elections has been taken away. You see that happening in places like Serbia and soon perhaps in Hungary, where people come into the streets because the electoral process doesn't work. And that day may come in the United States.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
I worry a lot about the integrity and fairness of the elections of 2026 and 2028. But for now, we have to assume and work on the assumption that those elections will be more or less free and fair, that the efforts that individuals put into organizing and voting will matter, and that is the place to go. You shouldn't be waiting helplessly for the elections. You should be preparing now.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
All those elections have begun. The 2028 election has begun. The 2026 elections have well begun. Money needs to be raised. Candidates need to be recruited. An organization needs to be done. If you live, as I infer Jamie does, in a state that is overwhelmingly blue like California, you can still play a part by, for example, volunteering your time to phone bank into nearby states.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
California may be blue, but Nevada is contested. You can take time to help candidates in Nevada. And even in California, there are districts that can swing one way or another. Another thing that a good citizen like Jamie can do is to try to make the Democratic Party more effective in government.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
You know, one of the things we all have to face is a reason that Donald Trump came back to power in 2024 was because so many Americans were dissatisfied with the record of the Biden administration before it, both about things that maybe they couldn't help, like the surge of global inflation.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
But the Biden administration also decided it wasn't going to make a big deal out of issues like immigration enforcement, anti-crime enforcement, civic order. And that's an important reason why Kamala Harris lost in 2024 and Trump was able to return. So there has to be a Democratic Party that can not only win but govern if you're going to keep the forces of Trumpism at bay.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
So being involved in those sectarian or factional disputes within the Democratic Party to say effective governance is going to be indispensable to keeping the lower D Democratic institutions in power, making them work, making them succeed. There's a lot to do. And you shouldn't measure the success, the efficacy of your efforts by, is there some immediate big result? Everything moves so gradually.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
You know that so long as you are following the clear and specific rules of the land, which are available to all to know, you can go about your business and meet the eyes of power without fear. The Trump administration is changing all of that.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Everything moves so slowly, but everything does move. I think it's the faith that individual effort can matter that brings me back here week after week. I hope it will bring you all back here week after week. Thank you all for watching. If you are watching on YouTube, please like and subscribe. If you're listening on an audio platform, please rate and review.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
This episode of The David Frum Show was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Abed is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I'm David Frum. Thank you for listening.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Lots of people who have lots of different statuses, who are here for limited periods of time, who are here under conditions, who are not full citizens, but who are not illegal either, are now living lives of fear.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Ordinary tourists are being apprehended, detained for days, sometimes for longer than that, treated in inhumane and indecent ways, and then deported from the country without any showing that they had done anything wrong, other than maybe not have a hotel room booked at the time that they arrived. We are building a society that is governed by fear, led by people who want to rule by fear.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
That's not right. It's not humane. It's not American. It's not democratic. It's not decent. It needs to stop. And that's what I'll be discussing with Peter Keisler today. But first, a quick break. Peter Keisler, welcome to The David Frum Show, and thank you for joining.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
So we're going to be talking some about transparency in the next few minutes. And in the interest of transparency, let me disclose, you and I have known each other for, I don't know that where either of us would be comfortable in using the exact number, but suffice it to say, we were both typing papers on typewriters at the time when we got to know each other.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Well, you're very kind to remember all of that. And we both started on the political right. You were active in the conservative legal movement. I think it's fair to say that your legal views are probably quite continuous with where they were all those years ago. But you found yourself, because of those legal views, in a different political situation from where you were all those years ago. Right.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Our theme will be issues of law and due process of law. And before I begin my conversation with Peter Keisler, let me offer some introductory thoughts on the subject.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And yet on issues of the role of the judiciary, how statute should be interpreted, have you changed your mind about those things or do you find yourself there saying, yeah, that is still what I thought then, I think now?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Let's start speaking of the courts. Let's start with the Supreme Court's recent rebuke to the administration about due process rights of people that is detained and sent to foreign prisons. How big a story is this? I mean, you have represented the United States so long and so well. How big a story is this?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
As we've seen, the Supreme Court of the United States has rebuked the Trump administration for its contemptuous attitude toward courts and toward the dozens of people it has sent to a maximum security prison in El Salvador without a hearing, without even allowing them to challenge that the government has got the right person.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Now, defenders of the administration will say, wait a minute. Are you saying there has to be a jury trial for every person who's in the United States illegally? It's probably worth clarifying here that for a deportation where the deported person gets off the bus or the plane and is then at liberty – The process can be very, very expedited.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
The United States deports a quarter of a million people a year, and it removes many more than that without even the formality of a deportation. But the key to the streamlined, simplified process that leads to so many deportations is once you're off the bus, you're a free person. I think that's a point that we need to underscore here.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
At a minimum, the person gets to say, you've got the wrong person. And I may have the same name as this other person, but actually I'm here on this visa or this status. You've got the wrong guy. Right.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Those detained people have now been in supposedly the custody of El Salvador, in fact, in the custody of the United States government, because the United States government is paying millions of dollars to the government of El Salvador to hold these prisoners.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is the federal courts have gone very, very far out of the way to avoid conflict with the first of the first and then the second Trump administrations. And in between, they went even further because they seem to have greatly welcomed delay on all the criminal matters, hoping that somehow All this problem would go away.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
It would be resolved by some other decision maker, some other branch of government or public opinion or something. And they could be left well out of it. And it culminating with the decision about the president's exposure to criminal liability, which is like this complete castle in the air legal structure that seems just to be based on we're going to
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
lick our finger, put it up in the wind and do a three-part balancing test based on no kind of ever previous authority. But mostly what we're trying to do here is just keep this off our docket.
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
They've been there now for five weeks, as I speak, without a hearing, without any show that the government has got the right person, incommunicado, and apparently for life. Now, it does look like there have been at least some instances of mistaken arrest. Some of these people may be outright innocent. Others may be genuinely bad actors. Who can know?
The David Frum Show
The Crises of Due Process
And that's, if I'm right in saying that, then that makes this recent decision even more remarkable because for once the Supreme Court is going all in to say something to the administration it doesn't want to hear.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Well, you mentioned the auto pact. I think a lot of Americans don't understand when they hear President Trump say and his surrogate say, we want Canada to sign some great new trade deal. I don't think they understand that Canadian U.S. trade has been wrapped in deals that go back to the 1950s for defense, to the 1960s for autos, the first Canada-U.S.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
free trade agreement to the 80s, NAFTA update in the 90s, the Trump version of NAFTA in the 2010s. And what Trump has been doing is saying all those signatures don't mean anything. We want another set of signatures. And one of the questions I think you must have and Canadians must have is, well, if the last set of signatures don't mean anything, why do you want new signatures?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Of all the tariffs against China, paused and unpaused. But those against Canada have remained consistently in place from the very beginning of the Trump administration. It's bizarre. It's shocking. It's upsetting. And that's what we're going to talk about this week on The David Frum Show. After the interview, I will be discussing and answering some reader questions.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
I understand you often talk to Secretary of Commerce Letnick. What are those conversations like without asking you to say anything you shouldn't say? Does he place the call? Do you place the call? How do you greet each other? Is it cordial? What happens on those calls?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Hello, and welcome back to The David Frum Show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic, and I'm grateful that you would join us again this second week of the program. This week, my guest will be Ontario Premier Doug Ford. Now, I should make clear, if anyone doesn't know it, I too am a Canadian and an Ontarian by birth, and I still spend a lot of time there.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Do you ever tell Secretary Letnick that he could make everybody billions and billions of dollars if he could just keep his yap shut for 48 hours?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Can you talk a little bit about the 51st State Troll? Because Canada and the United States have a relationship that is so integrated. Everything from migratory birds and the Great Lakes and trucks break down on the bridges and they break down on this part of the bridge. It's an American traffic problem. If they break down on this part of the bridge, it's a Canadian traffic problem.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Police coordination, your relationship with counterparts in Lansing and Albany. You probably work with them every single day. And yet they are two countries with different cultures and histories. Talk a little bit about how it feels to Canadians when Americans say your country doesn't matter, even though we have this great cooperative relationship.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
But first, some opening thoughts on the events of the past week. When Donald Trump and those around him want to demean or dismiss some opponent, some critic, they sometimes use the phrase, he doesn't have the cards. They said that about Vladimir Zelensky and the Ukrainian people's resistance to Russian aggression. They've said it about Canada and other trading partners.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
You just won an election on these issues. And there's now another election at the federal level being fought where the Trump issue is central. Do you think that the Trump people understand that they're remaking Canadian politics in ways that may surprise them in ways potentially they may not like because of their blundering interventions into Canadian life?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Let me end by asking you about the way forward, the way back to normality. Prime Minister Carney, who may or may not be prime minister next month, if he faces an election at the end of April, Prime Minister Carney is sort of an interim prime minister. He said nothing will ever be the same. And right now, it is very hard to see a way back to normal. Do you see a way back?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
What would that look like, starting from where we are with the intense feeling in Canada against what has been said about Canada?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Let me focus that question about the way back a little bit more. In our earlier lives, I think we can both remember a time when Canada was a much more state-dominated economy, much more protectionist. There was a government-owned oil company, government-owned other services, places the government had no business being. There's a lot of mistrust of American investment.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
There was foreign investment review acts. Remember the Trudeau government's, the first Trudeau government's national energy policy, where they tried to create a kind of isolated Canadian energy market.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
From the 60s to the 80s, Canada was an inward-looking, isolationist, protectionist, state-dominated economy in a way that changed in the 1980s with the free trade agreement, the Mulroney government, and governments like yours, Ralph Klein in Alberta.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
The implication is that the other person is too weak, too insignificant to be worthy of respect. But there's another implication too, which is that the United States and the Trump administration have does have the cards is so mighty and fearsome that others must give way. Now, the United States is obviously a very powerful nation with a lot of sources of command and control.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Prime Minister Carney sometimes sounds like he's talking about returning to that old way where there'd be a made-in-Canada car and that the price of Trump to Canada is not just what he's doing to Canada, but the way he's changing Canada to make Canada more inward. Do you worry about that? Do you think that that's a resistible trend?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Do you think that's a fight that can be won in the face of the kind of pressure on Canada today?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
American spaghetti is all made from Canadian wheat or almost all.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
But it is important to understand that, in fact, Donald Trump doesn't have the cards that he thinks he does. And that's one of the reasons that this campaign of economic aggression he's launched, not against China, but against the whole planet, every country just about, almost every trading nation, is coming amiss and will likely end in failure and even disaster.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Thank you to Premier Doug Ford for that candid, powerful interview. As mentioned, I also live in Ontario. I have a house there. And I've witnessed myself what the Premier has described, this surge of hurt and dismay and, above all, surprise among Canadians at the reaction to Canada in the Trump administration. What did Canada do to bring all of this hatred and desire for annexation on?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
It's very puzzling and very upsetting. And Premier Ford has been someone who's given powerful voice to those feelings. As mentioned, we're going to try to experiment with viewer and listener interaction on this program. It's something that has been lost on the internet, the collapse of comment sections in the early internet, the demise of Twitter as any kind of useful medium, platform of exchange.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
I'm going to try to restore some interactivity here. We'll see how it goes. Thanks to everyone who sent a question. We've selected three. I hope listeners and viewers will send more questions to producer at the davidfrumshow.com. And here are the three for this week. The first comes from Paul in the Bay Area, and he asks, do you think Trump supporters are having buyer's remorse?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Now, the Trump base is famously solid, powerful, even kind of threatening. Many in Congress on the Republican side hesitate to vote their consciences on things like free trade because they're so terrified of what Trump supporters inside the party might do. But elections aren't lost from the base. Elections are lost at the fringe.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Remember, 1932, Great Depression, Americans are going hungry, transient camps on the edge of every American city. Herbert Hoover still won 38% of the vote in 1932. You don't lose your base. That's why it's called the base. What you lose is the fringe and the edge. There are a lot of signs that President Trump is in deep trouble. During his first term, his personal approval was never that great.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Americans saw him for what he was, a bully, or maybe not wholly for what he was, but they saw a lot of what he was, a bully, loudmouth, kind of a thug. They didn't like it, but they did enjoy the economy of 2017, 2018, and 2019. And they didn't care whether he'd done it himself or whether he'd inherited it from Barack Obama.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Those were good times, and people appreciated it until the COVID crash, for which they largely didn't blame Trump. They saw that as some external event that maybe he didn't manage as well as he could have, but it wasn't his fault. Now there's a lot of data that shows Trump's economic numbers are heading south, and that's before significant layoffs have begun.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Thus far, the crisis that Trump started entirely on his own has been a financial market event. And it's like the gathering of a storm, not the storm itself. The storm is coming. And if it expresses itself in layoffs, in home foreclosures, I think you'll see a big reaction to that. You already hear nervousness from Republican members of Congress about the 2026 elections.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Supposing, let's just take Donald Trump seriously for a moment. He doesn't deserve it, but let's just for our own sakes do it. Supposing a president of the United States came to office and said, you know what, my top priority is going to be reshoring manufacturing in the United States.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
If those elections are allowed to proceed in a free and fair way, which is unfortunately not the certainty that it ought to be, I think there's going to be a price to pay for the mistakes of the past months and the further mistakes that seem to be coming. So I don't know that you'll ever get, Paul, the kind of reaction of, From the pro-Trump talkers on many platforms to say, we lied to you.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
We knew we were lying. The whole thing was a disaster. We're so sorry. We want to make some kind of repentance. I don't think there will be those folks are ever going to apologize in the way that perhaps you'd wish. But will there be enough cracks in the Trump coalition to weaken the position of the Trump presidency leading to the midterms?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And will there be some kind of correction in the midterms if they're allowed to happen? I think the answer to that is pretty strongly yes. A question from Hans. In last week's program, I made a reference to the way in which the far right of today has become a very adept user of new social media.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And Hans asked, I've been thinking for years that there is a comparison to be made between fascist authoritarian use of radio and film in the 1920s and 30s and the rights use of social media today. And he wanted me to develop this thought some more. It's a big mistake to assume that just because people have reactionary social views that they will necessarily be backward in their use of technology.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
In fact, quite the contrary. Often because they're so alienated from the society of the present, they are hunting in all kinds of unlooked for places in ways that people who are more satisfied with society I mean, for example, cable TV has obviously audience problems, and that's a much discussed fact.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
One of the things that the new media have discovered is there is a huge untapped audience for conspiratorial anti-Semitism. And people who speak to this can build huge online followings. Many of the most successful podcasters of today have discovered conspiratorial anti-Semitism as a great resource, and they're building audiences larger than CNN, MSNBC, even Fox.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Cable News is a little more old-fashioned that way, thank goodness. And it's saying, you know, even though there's a big profit to be made, we're not going there. But Numnia has said, we are looking for every kind of new opportunity. And if conspiratorial anti-Semitism is the wave of the future, that's for us.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
I personally don't agree that this should be anybody's top priority, but let's supposing it were a president's top priority, reshoring manufacturing. That's what Donald Trump says he wants to do. How would you go about it? Well, first you would admit to yourself, if to no one else, that you are proposing a very ambitious and expensive task, one that will involve a lot of dislocation.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And so you see this flourishing of the worst kind of ideas in the most advanced places on the newest platforms. And I think if we're going to hold society onto a better path, if we're going to hold media and public discussion onto a better path, we're going to have to follow the worst people in society onto the newest platforms and communicate in the newest ways.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And that's one of the things I'm trying to do here on this platform to say, you know what, we can use the new media and still say conspiratorial anti-Semitism is for crackpots, cranks, and vicious people of all other kinds. Question from Michael. In your book, Trumpocracy, you highlighted some of the hidden gifts of the Trump presidency.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Eight years later, are we any close to unwrapping and enjoying the fruits of those gifts or are we at risk of squandering them forever? This is a reference to an observation I made in a long ago book about there being potential benefits. One of the things that is a gift of Trump and maybe not a gift any of us want is Trump's second term brings to Americans the gift of humility.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
I think a lot of Americans have an assumption that things that happen in other places at other periods in history could never happen here. A famous book about American fascism bears the title, It Can't Happen Here. I think Donald Trump is showing that Americans belong to the same human race as the Germans, the Italians, and the Japanese. We are not special creatures of God. We are not immune.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
to the vices of humanity. America's had, on the whole, a more fortunate history than other countries. Not in every way a perfect history, but a more fortunate history. And so political extremism has tended not to get the purchase in the United States that it has in less fortunate countries. But there is no innate American immunity
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
to extremism and there is no guarantee that america must stay a democracy forever it is really up to all of us and donald trump has taught us that lesson is teaching us that lesson if we want to keep what has been great and good about america We're going to have to work over the next years the way Americans have seldom worked before in their political history.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Thank you so much for listening to the program. We'll be back next week with more. I hope you will like and subscribe. I'm not a very good salesman. I never remember to say that, but it turns out it's really important that you like and subscribe because we need to. We need to work together to bring this kind of message to as many people as need to hear it. We had great success with the first show.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
This episode of The David Frum Show was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Abed is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I'm David Frum. Thank you for listening.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
So you'd face up to that, and you'd try to build some kind of political consensus in favor of the bumpy, difficult path you were proposing for the nation. You would maximize your friends at home. You would reach out to other parties.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
You would not behave in an arrogant way that had a lot of people hoping for your failure, and you would not start committing all kinds of other offenses and even crimes that put you in all kinds of precarious positions where anything went wrong, and your whole program would become a cropper.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
you would understand you were doing something that was not easy, was not going to be fast, was going to be costly, was going to impose significant hardship on many people. You'd work with allies.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
You'd build a large coalition because you are going to need, even as you're shrinking your supply chains to move things away from China, you're still going to need various kinds of inputs from other countries. raw materials, if nothing else.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And you'd want to make sure that as many countries as possible were sympathetic to what you were doing rather than wishing that you would fail and fearing your aggression. You certainly wouldn't open campaigns of territorial aggression against neighbors and allies. You wouldn't say, we're going to annex Greenland from Denmark and we're going to try to conquer Canada and make it a 51st state.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
You wouldn't do any of those things. You would also understand the relationship between your financial program and your economic program. This is a little technical, but it's really important to grasp. The reason the United States has such a big trade deficit is exactly and precisely because the United States imports so much capital from other countries.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
The current account and the capital account, to give them their technical names, have to move together. So one reason the United States has had such an expansion of its trade deficit in recent years is, first, that the United States is importing so much capital in the form of private investment. People are buying into American companies, which is a good thing.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
I'm going to be speaking to the Premier about the sense of shock and dismay that Canadians have felt about Donald Trump's threats, not only to the trade arrangement between Canada and the United States, but his demands that Canada be annexed to the United States.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
But it's also because the United States has run huge budget deficits. So foreigners buy a lot of American debt because there's a lot of American debt to buy. A first step and an indispensable step towards shrinking your trade deficit is to shrink your budget deficit.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
So you would have a fiscal plan that worked in parallel to your trade plan, your economic plan, whereas instead of, as Donald Trump has done, exactly the opposite. His plan is to make the deficit bigger on a fantasy that with enough tariffs, he can make the trade deficit smaller, and that's not going to work. You would level with people. You would not promise people quick and easy success.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
The hardships that have come and are to come are going to arrive and are arriving as a total surprise to Americans. They were promised that this was going to be quick and easy. People in the Trump administration are still promising that the stock market will go up any day soon. Not understanding, you know what? Reshoring all this manufacturing, it's going to dislocate a lot of arrangements.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
A lot of businesses are going to close. A lot of people are going to lose their jobs. Maybe they'll find new ones. Conceivably, I don't believe it, but conceivably the new ones will be better paid. Probably not.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
But if you think it's sort of more manly for Americans to work with their hands in factories than to work in offices or in service jobs, if you think that that is going to fortify the character of the country and the economic sacrifice is worth it,
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Don't go promising people that they're going to be better off because it's not true, and they will notice, and they will be mad, and they will notice soon. Don't also say that your goal here is the strengthening of the American family. One of the things we know about families is they tend to come apart in times of economic distress, especially the non-college educated. During a recession, rates of
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Divorce go up, rates of childbirth go down. If those are your top priorities, understand that they conflict with the other top priority of reorganizing the entire American economy. don't also make a lot of appeals to freedom. Because a top-down reorganization of the American economy is many things, but a free market project, it is not.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
The Trump people, when they're trying to justify the economic policy that has sent world financial markets into such chaos over the past weeks, try to present this as some kind of confrontation with China alone. Because they don't like to admit to Americans that they are waging a trade war against the entire planet. This is not an anti-China campaign. This is an anti-everybody campaign.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
It is an act of state control, of state assertion, of central planning. Someone has grimly joked, of central planning without a plan. But there's a notion, there's a concept that the people at the top, the people with authority, think that a certain way of organizing the economy would be better than other ways. And they are going to use the power of the state to enforce their vision.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
So you have to drop all this talk about economic freedom, because that's not what we're doing. Economic freedom belongs to those who are free traders. With the reorientation of the economy toward manufacturing, you're committing to the tariff regime, which is highly intrusive.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
committing to probably with various kinds of retraining programs you're committing to state subsidies to at a minimum to buy off the farmers but state subsidies and other industries too and ultimately if you're not going to have a shrunken budget deficit and you're going to do the tariffs and you're going to try to restore manufacturing sooner or later you're going to discover yourself needing some kind of capital or exchange control to control the flow of money in and out of your country
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
So this is a big, old-fashioned, wartime economy project, not at all a free market one. And you'd better acknowledge that to yourself. Instead, what has happened is that Trump has presented this in a way that is so false, so deceptive, that the story is going to unravel faster than he can deliver any conceivable benefit, nevermind net benefit, but any benefit at all.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And so what he's gonna discover is he's doing this all with bluff. He doesn't have the cards. His promise of easy, cheap success Well, it comes naturally to him because he's kind of a flim flam artist and all his life he has built people who have trusted him. In this case, he is trying to build a whole nation.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
But I really I don't worry about this because, as I said, I don't wish any of this project. Well, I think the whole project is ill conceived, even if it were an honest project and it's not honest. But I think he has begun this project by lying even to himself about how easy it's going to be, how fast it's going to be, how remunerative it's going to be.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And I think what we all smell coming from this administration in the light of the unraveling of self-deception is the smell of panic. And this is the whole thing. This is the thing I think that the whole world, and especially the Chinese who are supposedly the targets of the Trump program, are smelling. They're smelling panic. They're smelling fear. They're smelling imminent defeat.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
The United States was sold this project as a way of reaffirming American power and greatness. In fact, we are witnessing not just a crisis of the American economy, but a crisis of American power. All kinds of other resources of the American state, the good name, the credibility, the alliance system, all these things are also in danger right now.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And we are going to find ourselves at the end of this Trump program, which may be coming faster than anyone believes. This whole thing may collapse quite quickly. But when it does collapse, it's going to be hard to put together a second plan.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
It's going to be hard to persuade countries that have been targeted by the tariffs, the countries that have been threatened with aggression, the countries that have been abandoned, that the United States has repented and will do better. And I'm not thinking here just about close American friends, but about a country like Vietnam, which is a historic enemy of China, which welcomed the
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
opening of an economic tie to the United States as a way to afford it, both to enrich themselves and also to give them some leverage against their powerful neighbor. They are now thinking, as nasty as the Chinese are, they may be more reliable. And we're seeing a revival of high-level visits between Vietnam and China in a way that is going to be very hard to undo.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And it's a campaign in which America has almost literally no allies except maybe El Salvador. And the trade war began with attacks on Canada, supposedly and historically America's closest neighbor and ally. You would think if you were trying to build an anti-China coalition, you would start by consolidating the North American heartland, especially the U.S.-Canada relationship.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Authoritarian states like Vietnam have a lot of policy continuity. Once they settle on something, it comes out of a big bureaucratic process of decision. But once they settle on it, that becomes the new plan.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
And if they've become convinced that the United States, under Donald Trump, but the United States generally, is not a reliable partner, that's not something they're going to change their mind about when the United States say, oops, sorry, it didn't work out. We didn't hit the Dow 50,000 target that Peter Navarro promised. We're rethinking this. We're going to try something else.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
We've got to pause. We've got to unpause. Then we're pausing again, then unpausing again. Through all of this, the United States is going to find itself in worse and worse shape. And now my interview with Ontario Premier Doug Ford. After that, I'll be answering questions from viewers and listeners. Please remember to like and subscribe to The David Frum Show. But first, a quick break.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Premier Ford, welcome. Well, thanks for having me on, David. I should mention, I was born in Ontario. I have a house in Ontario. I pay property taxes in Ontario, but I don't vote in Ontario. So you get the best of all possible worlds from me.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
This is where I want to start. So you've been working very hard on American television, talking about the relationship between Canada and the United States, between Ontario and the neighboring states, the facts, the figures, the enormous size of this relationship.
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Trump's Bad Poker Hand
I want to move away from that meat and potatoes, facts and figures approach to ask a sort of question I think Americans may not understand and would appreciate your insight into. A lot of Americans, even the people who are not sympathetic to what President Trump is doing, treat his comments about Canada as kind of a joke. Annexing 51st State, it's a troll, it's a joke.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
I don't think they understand the impact this is having, this kind of talk has on Canadians. So could you, just as someone who comes from a rightist-centered background, not a tax raiser, not a big government guy, someone who comes from the same part of the world, basically, as the Trump voters come from, how all of this lands when Canadians and Ontarians hear it?
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
That's exactly the opposite of what has happened. I'll be talking to the Premier about that, how Canadians feel about it, not so much the facts and figures of the relationship, enormous as it is, but what it has been like for Canadians to be on the receiving end of threats of annexation, threats of violence, and this unrelenting campaign of tariffs and harassment, which is not been paused.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
One of the things that baffles a lot of people in the Canadian business community especially is it's a complex relationship. There are always chafing points. Everybody understands that. Lumber, dairy, there have been issues that go back a long time. But what I hear from people in the business world is the Trump people aren't saying anything you can even say yes to.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
The grievances seem so imaginary. Everyone knows the drugs don't flow from Canada to the United States. They flow from the United States to Canada. The guns flow from the United States to Canada. Flows of manufacturers go from the United States to Canada. Canada sends energy. There's a trade back and forth in services. So they don't hear it.
The David Frum Show
Trump's Bad Poker Hand
Even if they wanted to say yes, they can't because the grievances don't seem real.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
One last question about the American role. Because when you line up, and I should have mentioned 1999, 2001, 2008, and you see the pattern of the American involvement there. And then you contrast it with the pattern of American involvement in 2025. It does really look like the United States is a receding power in the world that mattered much more a quarter century ago than it does now.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Hello, and welcome to episode six of The David Frum Show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic. At the very beginning of the first Trump presidency, back in 2017, I posted on Twitter the following thought. Regular reminder that Donald Trump's core competencies is not deal-making with powerful counterparties. It is duping gullible victims.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
And that the Trump administration seems to want the accolades that it would get domestically from the assertion of great power status. But actually it has given away that status and maybe by its own neglect, maybe by some objective reality.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Today, in May, American tariffs are dramatically higher than they were the day before Donald Trump took office. And the effort to make them scale up and to scale down is just a distraction, the way the dealer in a three-card Monty game keeps up a line of patter so that you don't notice that you're being deceived and robbed.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
It runs stronger in some human beings than in others. In a few, it's the overwhelming passion of life. Let me ask you, you alluded, I think, a little bit to what will be your answer to this question, but why is it so hard to reach an enduring peace in the subcontinent?
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The one smidgen of truth in Donald Trump's post about a thousand years is for a thousand years, Hindu majority and Muslim majority, Hindu ruled and Muslim ruled states have coexisted peacefully and successfully in the subcontinent. Why can't they do so now?
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
The fourth of the scams is the Donald Trump's project to accept from the Emirate of Qatar the personal gift of a jet, a jet plane that would accrue to him personally during his time as president. And that would then be kept by him and by his heirs through the guise of the Trump library and casino and whatever.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
fast food restaurant or whatever he calls it, but nothing that is going to be like any kind of charity. And it looks like the plane will keep operating and be available to him and to his family for use afterwards. It is the most astonishing act of brazen corruption in the history of the American presidency, in the history of many post-Soviet presidencies. I mean, it's un-American.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
But Pakistan is ideologically committed to the conflict for reasons you described. But the wealth gap between India and Pakistan has been growing and growing and growing. Presumably the power gap follows, although India has historically had difficulty turning wealth into power, for reasons you may want to explain.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
At some point, you would say, however ideologically committed you are to this conflict, it's not working. So peace becomes your logical outcome. But in the subcontinent, as indeed in the Israeli conflict with the various anti-Israel rejectionist groups around Israel, the logic of power that political scientists would predict doesn't seem to work.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Why does it not work between Pakistan and India where they say, you know what? We've just lost too many times.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
It can't be compared to anything that has ever happened in American history. And it comes on top of the flow of funds to Donald Trump from all over the world via these strange meme coins that he keeps issuing that someone is buying for no obvious business reason, but as a way to direct funds to the pockets of the president.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
But as China has colonized Pakistan in this way over the past generation, a succession of American presidents, starting with Bill Clinton, developing very rapidly under George W. Bush, the president for whom I worked, under President Obama, a little maybe less energetically, have sought to build an American-Indian partnership that is closer and closer.
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A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
And there are a lot of difficulties in the way of this. But there has been effort very much on the U.S. side, a little more doubt on the Indian side. President Trump has just slammed India with a whole new set of punitive tariffs, undercutting all the fine things that he and his vice president say about India.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
How would you assess the state of that U.S.-India partnership, so founded by Bill Clinton and nurtured by W. Bush and President Obama?
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Let's talk a little bit more about these two trade deals because there's going to be an enormous attempt to make them seem real. You know, in a three-card Monty game, And as well as the dealer, there are often people in the crowd who are there to back up the dealer's stories, to nudge people away from the tables if they look too closely, and to entrap victims.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Let me ask you a question, speaking about India in its own right, about Indian domestic politics. Yeah. The political tradition from which you come and indeed your life's work has been to speak for India as a non-sectarian state, a state of Muslim and Sikh and other minorities.
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A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
And I will note here for those who, you will know this history, but many forget that the Indian army that liberated Bangladesh in 1971 was led by a Jewish officer, which is a detail that is often forgotten.
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A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
And a lot of the pro-Trump media plays the role of these kinds of ropers and bumpers, as they're called. But those, even in the independent media, were not really very good at saying, this thing the president said, it doesn't mean anything.
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A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
That said, over the past decade and a half, India has emigrated away from that tradition to a great extent. You see a rise of sectarian and authoritarian politics in India. I don't say this to cast aspersions. We have seen it in the United States. Why should you be any different from the rest of the world?
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It has become to the point where people sometimes fear India becoming a Hindu Pakistan, chauvinist, sectarian, authoritarian. How worried should we be? How strong are the forces of opposition to this tendency? And the last question, maybe we can break this into a separate part. How is this affecting the way the authoritarian and sectarian elements in the United States think about India?
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
All that is happening here is the construction of a new apparatus of taxation that is imposed by the president at the president's discretion, that can be exempted by the president to people who give him favors or in exchange for various kinds of benefits, all of which is to shift the burden of taxation in the country from those best positioned to pay to those least positioned to pay.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Well, you'll remember the Howdy Modi event in Houston, Texas, in Trump's first term, where he gave a very personal greeting to Prime Minister Modi of a kind that previous American presidents have tried absolutely to subordinate, to say this is not a personal relationship. Bush-Clinton doesn't matter. Whoever is the head of government in India doesn't matter.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
This is a nation-to-nation, people-to-people relationship. But there do seem to be elements in the Trump administration, the vice president is one, that I don't want to overstate this, but seem to be indicating that a more Hindu chauvinist India is what they want, just the way they want to see neo-Nazis or neo-fascists prevail in many European countries.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
And I know you're speaking to an American audience and you want to preserve national unity, but can you talk a little bit about, from an American point of view, are they right that the United States would be better off with a more Hindu chauvinist India?
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
In swirling around all of this commotion, all of this noise, is massive amounts of insider trading. We've had volatility unlike anything seen in financial markets since the great crisis of 2008, 2009. And people who study the markets notice a lot of short selling and a lot of rapid buying just before and just the president makes major moves.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
As if important market players have been tipped off and are making bets in the trillions on which they're reaping profits in the hundreds of billions. It is just an astonishing thing that is happening. Meanwhile, what the central act is the movement of taxation, because tariffs are taxes, from those best positioned to pay to those least positioned to pay. A tariff is a tax on goods.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Thank you so much for making the time for us today.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Thanks to Dr. Tarur for joining me on the program. Because of the substance and length of our discussion today, we'll omit the viewer question part of the program this week. I hope you will send questions for next week's programs to producer at the davidfrumshow.com. And I hope you'll join us again next week for the next episode of The David Frum Show.
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A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Remember, if you like what you hear on The David Farm Show, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at theatlantic.com slash listener. That's theatlantic.com slash listener. And please like, subscribe, rate, review, share it any way you can, the content of this program, if you enjoy it and find it of value.
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A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
This episode of The David Frum Show was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Abed is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I'm David Frum. Thank you for listening.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
It is a tax that falls on the consumer of those goods and is a tax on the consumer of anything that has any kind of imported component in it. Now, maybe a way to think about this. is imagine a poor family eating a meal at home. Their table is tariffed. Their chairs are tariffed. The plates are tariffed. The knives and forks are tariffed.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
If they're having a frugal meal of pasta or spaghetti, the Canadian wheat that probably is the major ingredient in that pasta, that's tariffed too. Now imagine a wealthier family enjoying a meal in a restaurant, perhaps to celebrate the enormous reduction in their taxes that they're going to get as a result of the Trump tax deal.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Now, their tables and their chairs and so forth, the knives and forks, they might be tariffed too, although they probably come from Europe rather than China, so they'll be tariffed at a lower rate. But the most important cost in a restaurant meal is not the plate, not the chair, not the table, not the knife and fork, not even the food.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
The most important expense are the wages of the chef, the wages of the server, and the rent on the space in which the restaurant is located. None of those things are tariffed. They are services, not goods, and so they escape the tax entirely. Richer people tend to spend more of their income on services than they do on goods. Poor people spend more on goods than on services.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
That warning has seldom been more needed than it has been needed in the past days, which I call the week of the four scams. Over these past few days, Donald Trump has taken credit or introduced one after another piece of outrageous fiction, which he is presenting to the world as some tremendous achievement, and we need to be warned against it and to protect ourselves against it.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
And richer people, of course, can save and invest more of their income, and that escapes tariffs entirely. And the more of the income you spend on the services, the less you pay in tariffs. The working man's car, that's tariffed. The rich man's chauffeur, not tariffed. The poor girl's dolls, which she's allowed so few by the Trump administration, those are tariffed.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
When the rich family hires a nanny to play dolls with the girls, the nanny's salary is not tariffed. Towels are tariffed. Membership in a swimming club, which you use the towel, that's not tariffed. The doorknob is tariffed, but the doorman on Fifth Avenue, no tariff on him.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
It is very important when you listen to the Donald Trump show to keep your eye not on the game, but on the players and what they're about. And this jet story, this jet scam is maybe the most revealing thing of all. It is just beyond shameful that such an offer would even get two minutes of consideration. Look,
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Foreign governments, authoritarian governments, especially those like Qatar, which have these bad ties to Hamas and Iran and which are trying to buy favor in the United States, they're always approaching people. There's a whole apparatus of distance to keep things like that away from the president. The president doesn't normally say no.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
The president normally never even learns that the offer was made in the first place. But in this case, there are no guardrails and no protections. And so in our fourth scam, the offer comes to the president. The president wants to say yes. He may ultimately not be able to say yes.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
The gift of a jet to the press in the United States personally from a foreign emirate, that may be too much even for Trump's usual apologists. But look how far we've come. Look how low we've sunk. It's a shame. It's a scandal. And the test for all of us is whether we can keep our eye on the main thing and to keep being shocked by things that are shocking.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
And now, my discussion with Dr. Shashi Tarur. But first, a quick break.
The David Frum Show
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A terrorist outrage in Kashmir killed some 25 Indians on April 22nd. India and Pakistan have since mutually retaliated one upon the other. As we record this dialogue on the morning of Sunday, May 11th in Washington, the evening of Sunday, May 11th in the subcontinent, a ceasefire has taken hold.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Now, the first of the scams will supply the matter of my main conversation in the program today, and that is Donald Trump's attempt to take credit for the India-Pakistan ceasefire. The India-Pakistan ceasefire is a real event. It actually happened.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
To discuss the very distressing and worrying events in the subcontinent, I am very proud and pleased to be joined by Dr. Shashi Tharoor. To say Shashi Tharoor is an author and a member of the Indian parliament is accurate so far as it goes, but inadequate to the reality.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
His books have been massive sellers in India and the United Kingdom, have had great influence on all debate about Indian politics. And he himself occupies a very important place as a politician that goes beyond the merely parliamentary.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
In a country where politics has for a long time been drifting in sectarian and authoritarian directions, Dr. Tharoor's public advocacy and political work elevate him as one of India's preeminent voices for secular and liberal politics. A graduate of the University of Delhi and a PhD from the Fletcher School at Tufts University here in the United States,
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Dr. Toor spent much of his early career working in international organizations. He rose to be Undersecretary General of the United Nations. In 2009, he was entered into electoral politics and was elected to parliament. He has been reelected three subsequent times for a total of four, an unbroken career of success.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
He now heads the Parliamentary Committee on Foreign Affairs in the Indian Parliament. Thank you so much for joining us today at this time of tension. Maybe you can begin by talking about the ceasefire. A ceasefire has taken hold. The Trump administration claims a lot of credit for brokering it. Do they deserve that credit?
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
But Donald Trump's role in it was negligible, to say the least, as you will hear when I speak to my guest today, Dr. Shashi Tharoor, who is chairman of the External Affairs Committee in the Indian Parliament and one of that country's leading voices for liberal and humane values. But now let's talk in the interval about the three scams that took place here at home on the home front.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Well, let me ask you more about this American mediation. You'll remember that in 2001, there were, again, another outrage against India. Colin Powell personally inserted himself and worked very hard, deployed a lot of threats actually against the Pakistanis to bring about a ceasefire. In 2008, after the terror attack in Mumbai, Another outrage on Indian soil.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Condoleezza Rice was in person in the subcontinent and flew back and forth. That's what American mediation has looked like in the past.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
From our point of view, and not to make this a story about the United States when it's a story about the people of the subcontinent, but it does look like the Trump administration showed up, took credit for something that had already happened, and is now, because its main interest seems to be not a structure of peace, but scoring some Nobel Peace Prize nomination for Donald Trump.
The David Frum Show
A Jet, a Lie, a Tariff: The Trump Grift Machine
Two of them are the so-called trade deals that Trump is taking credit for, one with Britain, one with China. Now, these aren't deals in any traditional sense of the word. A trade agreement must be approved by Congress. It's a treaty. These are executive announcements, PR press releases, concepts, plans, projects, noise. They don't amount to anything.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Let me ask you very specifically about the crisis part of it. So in 2009, there are two salient features to the response to the crisis. The first is you had this legendarily smooth transition from W. Bush to Obama. There's a book about it by a political scientist as the smoothest transition maybe in American history.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And then you had this extraordinary level of collaboration with central banks all over the planet and treasury departments all over the planet. So domestic consensus, international cooperation. Those seem to be entirely missing now.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Something similar to that seems to be happening today. We need to meet the worst forces in our society on the battleground of ideas using the latest tools. And that's what we're going to try to do here.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
You know, when people produce honest information about vaccines, about trade, about anything else that's important that has unfortunately become controversial, of course the production of that information costs resources, and those resources have to be paid for. The unfortunate result is that the truth is often paywalled, while the lies are always free.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Well, let's talk a little bit about the international aspect, because one of the things, it's a little dark to say this, but if you're at the European Central Bank or the Japanese Central Bank- I think it's a pretty dark day, so go ahead for it. Europeans, Japanese, British, major central banks.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
You have to be hoping that this shock is as painful as possible and this recession is as nasty as possible to teach the Trump administration a lesson about waging economic warfare, economic aggression against allies in this way that is like an economic Pearl Harbor of bad faith and aggression. They don't want to help. It's not in their interest to help.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And in 2009, it was in everybody's interest to help each other. So reminisce a little bit about that. And how do we get back into a place where America's friends want to help instead of saying, you know, you screwed us, now we're going to screw you?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Well, here on the David Frum Show, we're going to try to be free in every sense of that term and to make content available to all who want it in as honest a way as it's possible to do. My first guest this week will be Ambassador Rahm Emanuel, who has served the United States in many capacities.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
It's like the Chinese have their national slogan. We may be nasty, but at least we're predictable.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Let me ask you very specifically about the view from Tokyo of what is happening right now. Bank of Japan, Japanese finance ministry, what are they thinking? What are they doing? Can you give us any insight into that?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Can we talk about the economic theory or the economic excuses that are offered for what's just been happening?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
I'm going to be talking to him at the beginning about one of those capacities, his service as White House Chief of Staff during the financial crisis of 2009, another steep collapse in financial markets. What similarities does he see between now and then? What differences? And what lessons does he have to offer us? Before my conversation with Rahm Emanuel, a few opening thoughts.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Okay. I was just being polite. I was recently in. I'm here.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
All right. Candidly, I was recently in Austria and I was in Vienna and there's a short street there called Dumba Strasse, which as an English reader, you read as dumbass street. And I've been thinking that the whole world has been living on dumbass street for too long. But so, OK, granted, let's let's talk about how we live on a smarter street.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
So the excuse offered is, look, these have been difficult times for Americans with less education, fewer credentials. And we need to have all these tariffs in order to protect Americans with less education and fewer credentials.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And the answer is a tariff wall is the solution to the problem of the parts of America that have not shared as much as other parts in the extraordinary economic progress of modern times. I know you have a lot of thoughts about that. Tell us, how do we think more intelligently about how to respond to the problems of people or the situation of people who have not done as well as others?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Last week, the United States suffered one of the severest shocks in the nation's financial history. It's a little difficult to wrap your mind around how big an event this Trump tariff disaster was. As of Friday afternoon, U.S. stock markets had suffered a loss of about $6 trillion.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
We had three two-term presidencies back-to-back under two parties, Clinton, W. Bush, Obama, that made reform and improvement in the standards of educational performance central to their domestic agenda. And yet we look back on, as you say, the 30 years. I don't think there's a lot of happiness or satisfaction with the results of all the effort that those –
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
three two-term presidents invested in improving education. What went wrong? Why are we not getting more for the results, the effort we've made? What lessons do we learn from the disappointment?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And to put this in context, the severest natural disaster in American history, Hurricane Katrina, cost the United States about $200 billion. So what Trump did was 30 times as expensive as Hurricane Katrina. It's more on the order of what it cost the nation to wage and win the Second World War. Now, stock market valuations come and go, and perhaps some of this money will be recovered.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Let's talk a little bit of the COVID experience in education. So if you were in COVID in a red state or especially a red county, you had a much higher chance of dying from the disease, especially after vaccines became available than in the blue states and blue counties. So that's a checkmark for the blue team.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
They did a better job of vaccinating people or maybe a less bad job of dissuading people from being vaccinated. But if you were in a red state or a red county, it was more likely that your schools would reopen early. And we see some indications that kids in Florida did better than kids in California as a result of decisions made at the state level.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
So how should we think about this gap in educational performance that was very much concentrated in blue states and blue cities?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
But other forms of damage that Trump did never will be. Trump permanently, or at least for a generation, stained the good name of the United States with dozens of allies around the world, countries that had done things that the United States asked, countries that had signed agreement with the United States.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Go ahead. Do you have a view on phones in the schools?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
You mentioned the Kamala Harris campaign. Can I ask you?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
At the highest level of generality you want. Lessons learned. I mean, so you were the candidate recruiter in 2006 for the big Democratic wins that year. You won in a lot of places that Democrats historically didn't win in the House. You get a lot of credit for that from all political observers. That was very much your project. Then 2008, okay, there's an economic crisis.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Maybe the challenging candidate had the chance, had a certain advantage, but it was a pretty decisive victory, especially compared to the victories and defeats that came later. Thank you.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
He demonstrated that America's word was not good and that American credit could not be trusted. Many corporations have very intricate systems of supply with providers all over the planet. And those things were interrupted. And those business relationships were disrupted in ways, again, very hard to undo. The economic mechanism is a sophisticated and delicate apparatus.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And when somebody comes blundering around and smashes up arrangements, that has enduring effects. Now, some of Trump's defenders will give you an explanation of what happened. They will tell you that woke financial markets guided by people who hate Trump went on a kind of petulant rampage against Trump's America first agenda.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Can we pause to understand and absorb how childish a way of thinking this is? Financial markets are made up of millions of people making billions of decisions involving trillions of dollars. They're as impersonal as the tides.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
The financial markets crashed because all of those decision makers across so many countries, across so many time zones, collectively assessed that Donald Trump had sliced a huge amount of value out of every company traded in the United States and
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Hello, and welcome to the first episode of The David Frum Show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic. Why another podcast? It's a natural question. The answer begins with the chart I recently glimpsed from a media studies organization.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And although we couldn't see it, also out of every company not traded in the United States, there are some 30 plus million companies in the United States. Almost all of them must be poorer this week than they were last. To understand why these financial markets reacted as they did, we need to begin by understanding what a tariff is.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
In the simplest terms, a tariff is a tax on any good imported into a country. But most of us experience those tariffs as taxes on things we consume, fruits and vegetables, electronic equipment, maybe an automobile. But from the point of view of the whole economy, it's just as important to understand a tariff as a tax on things we produce, as a tax on things we consume.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Every industrial product, every product is an assembly of components from other countries and other places. When you raise a tariff, you don't just raise the tax to the consumer. You raise a tax to everybody at every step along the way of the value chain. Trump defenders will say, for example, well, if you build your car inside the United States, the car won't be tariffed. Fine, as far as it goes.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
But what about the steel that goes into the car? Well, that'll be tariffed. What about the aluminum that goes into the car? Tariffed. What about the glass out of which the windscreen is made? Tariffed. What about the fabric from which the upholstery of the seats is spun? Tariffed. What about electronic gear? What about the windshield wipers?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
All of those components that are assembled into the car, all of them are tariffed, and the whole car's result is more expensive to everybody. And a car is by no means the most sophisticated item out there. Think about iPhones. Think about airplanes. They are just giant assemblies of components and subcomponents that come from all over the planet. And every one of them is more expensive.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And therefore, the final product is not only more expensive, but more disrupted. Because, of course, manufacturers these days expect things to arrive just in time. They don't keep warehouses full of parts. They bring the parts in constantly in container ships from all over the planet.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And when Trump acts in the irrational and unexpected way that he did, he disrupts all of those systems of delivery. Tariffs do one other thing that is very important to understand, which is they invite corruption.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
They invite the corruption at the highest level of society because every business in America, every business in the world will now be on its way to Mar-a-Lago seeking a special exemption or a special favor for itself or some countervailing subsidy.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And of course, Trump will exact a price for those favors, buy his meme coin to direct wealth to members of his family, make a documentary and pay his wife or his child for the right to make the documentary. Do that and your tariff might be lifted. It also invites corruption that touches each of us more personally.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
It showed that audiovisual content online tended to bunch up at the far extremes of American political dialogue, the far left and the far right, with the far right having a big advantage. The center ground lay abandoned and seemingly barren. Now, that's not the way things are in real life. In real life, most of us are pretty level-headed people.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
There's going to be, in a few days, a 60% difference in the cost of an iPhone in Toronto or Vancouver from the cost of an iPhone in the United States market. Smugglers will arbitrage that extraordinary difference.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And there will soon be goods moving on foot, by car, by truck, by boat, by plane, by container ship, from all the rest of the world into the uniquely high-priced terrain of the United States. It's hard enough to police fentanyl. Fentanyl is something that everybody agrees is wrong. When smugglers are moving things like pepper and cinnamon and coffee and toilet paper and flat screen TVs.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
No one's going to think that's wrong. They're going to think those people are bringing them a better bargain. The idea that we're going to all pay more for tube socks is Peter Navarro, the Trump economic advisor said, well, some will, but many people will be looking for bargains from off the back of a truck from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. You'll hear excuses for what Donald Trump did.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
It'll be said, for example, that what he's trying to do, what he's really trying to do is raise revenues to fund the United States and make possible a cut in the tax rate or maybe abolish the income tax altogether. Can't know a lot of math if you're going to believe that, because the numbers just don't work. And that's even before the tariffs cause a recession and invite all this smuggling.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Tariffs are not going to be a substitute for any kind of tax revenue. They don't begin to pay the costs of a modern government, the government that Trump wants, including the defense establishment he wants.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
One of the reasons the United States moved away from tariffs more than a century ago was precisely that modern government costs more than a tariff can possibly sustain without terribly damaging effects. It'll be said, well, OK, what he's really doing is trying to force countries to make deals with the United States.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And the phones will be burning up as nation after nation calls Trump to make a deal. We'll be signing all of these free trade agreements. Now, notice the claim that these are invitations to negotiate completely contradicts the claim that they're here to raise revenue. If they're here to raise revenue, the tariffs are supposed to be taxes that stay in place forever.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
If they're to be negotiated away, they're not going to raise much revenue. If they raise much revenue, it can't be negotiated away. Well, it'll be said, no, no, no. The whole point of this thing is in order to counter China. China is such a predator. China is such a threat. China is such a difficult neighbor. We're going to bring jobs back from China.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
But if the goal here is to counter China, why alienate every other nation in the Pacific? The United States, to balance a country as big as China, is going to need friends. And it has alienated those friends from Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia. Every one of them is looking at the United States and saying, little as we like the Chinese, they're at least predictable. You guys are erratic.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Maybe we're safer with them than with you. And we're certainly not falling in line with any counter-Chinese scheme you have because you might smack us in the face for no reason with no notice. The last thing that is sometimes said, and the president himself has said this in social media, is that what you are seeing is the working out of a master plan to lower interest rates.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Well, you can lower your property taxes by burning down your house too. That doesn't make that a good plan. Yeah, if we go into a major economic recession, as it looks like we're going to do, yeah, interest rates will probably come down. They're very low during the Great Depression. They're very low during the financial crisis. The goal is not to have low interest rates.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
It's to have lower interest rates consistent with high levels of economic activity. Causing recession to bring down interest rates is no kind of solution to any kind of rational problem. It's an excuse after the fact. Anyway, none of this is true.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Trump's actual idea is the United States should be running a trade surplus with the whole world, and not just the whole world together, but each country in the world. And anytime there's any country with which the United States runs a trade deficit, that country is ripping the United States off.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And we approach the world in a spirit of curiosity, not anger, looking for insights, not insults. Yet, when the sound comes on and the video comes up, things are suddenly different. And the worst voices get the biggest audiences. I don't think it has to be that way. In the text edition of The Atlantic, we prove every day that Americans want something better.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
So if, for example, impoverished Madagascar is selling the United States more vanilla beans than it buys software and airplanes and insurance from the United States, then Madagascar is ripping us off by letting us have real vanilla. Is that crazy or what? The whole world is an interlocking system of trade.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
The United States is not the center of the universe with everyone having a one-on-one relationship with the United States. Countries sell to the United States to buy from other countries. Countries buy from other countries to sell to the United States. Everything is interlocked.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
And the United States will have different kinds of relationships with different kinds of countries at different stages in development. And through it all, the United States has remained the wealthiest country in the world with the most sophisticated markets.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Donald Trump keeps trying to tell Americans they've failed, that the country isn't great, that the country is some kind of economic disaster, when in fact its economy on inauguration day, 2025, was the envy of the world. Only today is that economy an object of pity. Let's think about it for a minute, about all of this from the perspective of other countries and other peoples.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
There's a story told about the great British general, the Duke of Wellington, winner of the Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon. After the battle, many years, a friend was riding in the countryside with the Duke of Wellington, and they observed a rise in the landscape. As they approached the rise, the friend said to the Duke of Wellington, this is so pretty.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
I wonder what the other side looks like. And the Duke of Wellington imagined a landscape. He said, well, I suspect that there'll be a stream running from this point to that point. There'll be a copse of woods. There'll be some hills. I think there may be some grazing animals. They passed over the top. And indeed, everything was as the Duke said. Friends said, have you been here before?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
How did you know? The Duke of Wellington replied, well, I'm a general. All my life, I have devoted my thought to the problem of what lies on the other side of the hill. Donald Trump won't think about the world from the perspective of anybody else. But that's something, if you're trying to do these so-called great deals, you ought to do.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
If you're trying to impose your will on the planet, you ought to think about how will the rest of the planet respond. And everybody around the world looks at the United States and thinks, What are you people doing? We can't trust you. We can't look to you for leadership. You're unpredictable. We are seeing action after action that can't be explained.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Your betrayal of Ukrainian troops in the field, your abandonment of the island of Taiwan, this outrageous and deliberate act of unprovoked economic aggression, and the miserable, mean-spirited treatment with which you attack visiting tourists and people who may have had a mistake on their visa. You throw them in prison forever. What kind of country are you?
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
We look different in the eyes of the world than we did just a few weeks and months ago. And the rest of the world respond by saying, even if you change your mind about all this, even if Donald Trump rolls back the tariffs, we still need to keep our distance from you. We need to think about buying fewer weapons systems from you because you can't be trusted.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
We need to think about developing military systems that are independent of yours because you can't be trusted. We need to think about strategic autonomy from you because you can't be trusted. We need to think about finding new kinds of trading relationships and new kinds of partners because you can't be trusted. Trump will end. Someday, this will all be history.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
But the consequences will not fade so fast. Let me say a personal word. I come from Canada. I still spend a lot of time there. I have friends and relatives there. And my generation of Canadians undertook a long argument about the kind of relationship that Canada should have with the United States. And people like me said... Canadians should stand closer to the United States.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
You can trust the Americans. They're good neighbors. They're good allies. And their world design is a benign one. And Canada can find a prosperous and secure part by following American leadership. People like me, we feel very betrayed right now. And I think that memory, that's not going to fade so fast. Now my conversation with Rahm Emanuel. But first, a quick break.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
I'm going to try to give them that something better also here in audio and visual content on The David Frum Show. We shouldn't assume that just because people have deeply reactionary politics, they're necessarily backwards in their technology. A century ago in another dark time, fascists outpaced Democrats and liberals in their mastery of the then new technology of the radio.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Rahm Emanuel, thank you so much for joining the podcast. It's such an honor to have you.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
Thank you very much. Let me recapitulate. If there's anyone who does not know, recapitulate your brilliant career. Senior advisor in the Clinton White House, member of Congress and member of the Democratic House leadership, chief of staff to President Obama, mayor of Chicago, ambassador to Japan. That is quite a perspective on history.
The David Frum Show
Treating Friends Like Enemies
I'd like to ask you about one particular moment in your perspective on history, which is you were there. in 2009 for one of the severest economic shocks in American history, as you and I speak, where the United States is suffering another one. You got some perspective for us about what is going on, lessons we should learn, hope to offer?
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
In President Trump's first term, he directed money to himself in a way that had never before been seen by an American president, never remotely, like not in the same neighborhood. He would stay in his hotels. The Secret Service would pay him money to protect him. He would make clear to anyone from foreign nations that if they wanted his attention—
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
They had better stay overnight at his hotel and hold their events in his hotel. At the beginning of his presidency, when he won by surprise in 2016, a number of the Persian Gulf states, which had planned events at other hotels in early parts for Christmas in 2016, hastily rebooked at the Trump Hotel to gain favor.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
He also moved a lot of party money, not only public money, but if you were a Republican and you wanted his endorsement, you would have his event. event at his hotel. That's a lot of money. On the other hand, it's something you'd expect from a crooked governor, not someone who controls the United States.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
As the Germans surrendered in the West, American forces in the Pacific were fighting a brutal battle on the island of Okinawa, one of the bloodiest battles of the whole war, certainly I think the bloodiest battle of the American Pacific campaign.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And it looks like in his second term, he thought, if I ever get another chance, this time I'm going to think big. And it looks as if Through his various mysterious crypto ventures, hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more, are moving from all kinds of people all over the planet to himself and to his family. And again, this is shadow. He can't be very precise.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Hello, and welcome to Episode 5 of The David Frum Show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic. This week, I'll be joined by my Atlantic colleague and dear friend, Anne Applebaum, one of the world's leading authorities on democracy and authoritarianism, kleptocracy, and the rule of law. I am so looking forward to the conversation with Anne, but first, some thoughts.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
But it looks like vastly more money than in the first term has already moved into his hands in the second.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And no one knew on the day that the Nazis surrendered how long that war in the Pacific would last, except for a handful of Americans who were party to the secret of the atomic bomb,
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Most Americans, most people assumed that there was probably another year of fighting ahead, an invasion of Japan and many thousands, maybe many hundreds of thousands of American casualties and allied casualties too, because the American army that entered Japan would be supported by Commonwealth forces, Australia, British, Canadian. But the atomic bomb did explode.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
There's nothing like it because the presidencies that are thought of as corrupt, Harding, Ulysses Grant, what happened there was you had typically an inattentive president or in Grant's face, a president who was a little too protective of his beloved wife's relatives and turned a blind eye to corrupt practices by people around him. And maybe the president should have known what was going on.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
In Grant's case, Grant was obviously no fool. He should have known what was going on. Harding was more of a fool. But the presidents themselves, the money didn't stick to them. And people remember Teapot Dome as being associated with Harding. But Harding didn't benefit from Teapot Dome. He just was ineffective and inattentive. In the same way, Grant didn't get rich as president.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
His wife's family picked up some – lucrative positions and made dirty tens and maybe even hundreds of thousands of dollars in the money of the day. But again, Grant was inattentive and overprotective. FDR allowed some of his children to engage in business practices that they should not have. No suggestion that any of it stuck to him. Again, inattentive and overindulgent. Those are the practices.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
It has never been a case of money flowing into the hands of a president as president on this kind of scale. Now, one of the questions that will, I'm sure, be occurring to many people who watch and listen is, isn't this illegal? And you've cited some specific laws. There's also, we discussed this a couple of weeks ago with Peter Keisler, the former acting attorney general.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
There are general background statutes that say you can't use public office at all in any way that benefits yourself. Even if we haven't specified this is forbidden, there's a general, oh, and one more thing, you can't do this. But as you were saying, all of this depends on the president to enforce the law.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And if the president is determined not to and punishes those who try and removes those who try, The system, in the end, cannot be enforced against the wish of the president, at least not so long as he has Congress on his side.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Japan did surrender and the war came to an end, a final and formal end. with the surrender ceremony in Tokyo Bay on the 2nd of September, 1945. So this is a time of commemoration. And in this time, the President of the United States, Donald Trump, issued a very strange post about the event on the 8th of May.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
He wrote, many of our allies and friends are celebrating May 8th as Victory Day, but we did more than any other country, by far, in producing a victorious result on World War II. I'm hereby renaming May 8th as Victory Day for World War II and November 11th as Victory Day for World War I. We won both wars. Nobody was close to us in terms of strength, bravery, or military brilliance.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Yeah. Bad character becomes a bona fide job qualification. You pointed something here that, and this is how this becomes a linking theme. When you're doing a backsliding democracy, we're not, of course, this is not a full-blown dictatorship like Maduro's Venezuela.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
This is a backsliding democracy like those we've seen in other parts of the world, in Central and Eastern Europe, and perhaps in parts of East Asia as well. It becomes quite dangerous to be the chief executive because you're accumulating all this money. There are actually statutes on the books that say you're not supposed to do this.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And there are broken but still present parts of the bureaucracy that are theoretically supposed to enforce these laws against you. So you need for self-preservation one by one to shut them down. And that is, I think, the linking point. between Donald Trump's repressive agenda and his corruption agenda.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
The corruption agenda is possibly legally dangerous unless you break also all the rest of the state.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that Trump and his defenders often say is they feel uniquely persecuted. No president has ever been investigated as much. No president has been convicted of crimes before. No president has been impeached twice. And they don't connect any of these results, the predicates of their own action. But what is revealing about those comments is they reveal how endangered –
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Trump and the people around him feel. I mean, even if in the end, the American political system cannot hold a president to account, which looks like something we discovered about the system in the Biden years, that had a president tried to overthrow the government of the United States.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
There's lots of evidence he'd taken bribes, he'd stolen documents, and everybody seemed to make a kind of collective unspoken decision. You know what? Too big. We can't deal with this. But lots of other people, 1,000 people who took part in the January 6th crime were prosecuted and were sentenced. The others are also in danger.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
But we never celebrate anything. That's because we don't have leaders anymore that know how to do so. We are going to start celebrating our victories again. Now, that post was such a perfect crystallization of the Trump style. Bombast, boast, all of it making Trump himself the center of a story that he had nothing whatsoever to do with.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
So they become co-authors of the need to break institutions with the president who may in the end get away with it because the system can't – the American system can't do that to its own president.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Yeah, and if there are free and fair midterm elections, given the very bad economic news that seems to be arriving day by day, Congress can be an investigative body, even if you can shut down the Department of Justice. So you have to worry. You just have all these points of danger, and you have to shut them down one by one, the free press being one of the most important.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Now, historically, Americans have... seldom cared all that much about corruption in government. People always cite Watergate, but I think one of the things I think we've all learned from the Trump years is if 1974, if instead of being the worst economic year since the Great Depression, the year of Watergate, if it had been a great economic year,
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I am no longer very confident that Richard Nixon would have been in much trouble and that people were ready to hear bad news about Watergate because it was a terrible year economically. There was inflation and unemployment and oil shortages and gas lines. But 2017, 2018, 2019 were pretty prosperous years.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And although the offenses that were happening over those years, not as big as now, but bigger than anything ever seen before, Americans tended to shrug. By the way, they mostly shrugged through Teapot Dome.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
The statement is unwise and unattractive in all kinds of other ways, too. It denigrates the sacrifices and heroism of others, and it turns the tragedy and horror of war into a triumphant narrative that was completely alien to almost all the people who experienced it as nothing but a tale of suffering and waste and cruelty and misery.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Well, Hunter Biden stands in a long and rather dismal American tradition of the bad relative of the serving president. And there is almost always one of these. Jimmy Carter's brother, Billy. You go through the list. George H.W. Bush had a son who traded on the family name. There's almost always a relative. I think Eisenhower is the only one where all the brothers were as exceptional as
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
as Eisenhower himself, each in his own way. Usually there's a disgraceful relative out there. Franklin Delano Roosevelt's children, my God, they were the Hunter Bidens of their day, and they did all kinds of shady business deals. But this maybe does create some shadow of...
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Permission for those who want to believe in Trump, because if you are minded to ignore what's going on, you can say, well, every president has a son or brother, a nephew who is making a dishonest living of hundreds of thousands of dollars by trading on the president's name and selling paintings to people who obviously are not interested in the quality of the art in the painting.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And therefore, that practice inures you or predisposes you, as you said, if you're partisan, to say, and therefore, there's no difference between the president himself taking hundreds of millions of dollars, not hundreds of thousands, and using it in a way that directly influences American politics in ways we can see.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
The crypto industry is going to go unregulated, in part because the crypto industry has directed so much money to Donald Trump. Or the direct benefit, apparently, as best we can tell, to Elon Musk's companies and interests that have flowed from his actions in government. These are different kinds of things.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
But if you want to give yourself permission to cite Franklin Roosevelt's children or Joe Biden's, you can do that. But you're not telling yourself the truth. You're saying, here are two things, and we can apply words to these two quite different things and use words to make them seem similar, even though they're not.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I want to draw attention to something maybe less obvious about what is wrong, what is missing from the president's statement. The first is, as so often when Donald Trump talks about American military history, he emphasizes power and success and triumph and military genius. But always lacking is any mention of the values for which Americans fought.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Some of this, I think, is an unintended result. And I think I'll give two examples from the weekend. I suspect even the politically engaged people who would listen to a podcast like this will recognize in themselves what I'm describing. So over the weekend just past, President Trump tweeted about restoring Alcatraz as a federal prison. Now, this can't happen.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I mean, Alcatraz is an ancient prison. It's been a federal museum, I think, for half a century. It's just – the cells are not to modern standards. You can't do it. And it looks like what happened was a TV station that he was watching had a movie that was set in Alcatraz and he – watched the movie and thought, Alcatraz, I'm going to make that a prison again.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And as the whim formed itself in his impulsive brain, he put a message on True Social that he wants to do this. Should you react to that or not? And I think most of us react, I'm not going to react to that. That's so obviously something that's not going to happen. That's not a real thing. It's just noise.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And I'm sure that's the correct response for each of us as working individuals with finite time and finite energy. You can't react to everything crazy, he says, because he says more crazy things than you can have reactions to. On the other hand, it opens a process of endless devaluation of the president's words, that what the president says really doesn't matter.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
So in that same weekend, President Trump posted on True Social a comment about how he wanted to have tariffs on movies to create an all-in-America movie industry. So that's a little less impossible than turning Alcatraz back into a federal prison. It's also pretty impossible and something he's probably not going to do. And again, but it's something that could happen, unlike the Alcatraz example.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And so should you take the energy, if you're a journalist who writes about these things, if you're a concerned citizen, to react to the movie thing, or should you let that one go? And there's this endless pushing of just, he says so much stuff that's nonsense, that You actually begin, and your more sophisticated peers will say, you're kind of a sucker. It's just something the president said.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
He says things all the time. You can't react to that. And then when he says, I don't know whether I'm bound to it in the same weekend. I don't know whether I'm bound to obey the Constitution or not, which is something he said. Is that something we should dismiss? Is that Trump just gassing? Or is that something that is directionally significant?
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
So he wears down people, even who are the most committed, by saying so many things that are just ridiculous. But buried in our little poison barbs of danger.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
America didn't go into World War II or even World War I to be top nation, to beat and dominate others. It went to defend things that Americans regarded as precious, and not only Americans, but others too. And one of the measures of how precious those values were, not only to Americans, to others, but the world that has grown up as a result of the war,
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Well, let me wrap up by taking us in a slightly different direction to something that it's a little uncomfortable for us to discuss. When you and I talk about people who do this or people who do that, it's not just a figure of speech. We're talking about people oftentimes whom we know personally, know sometimes quite well,
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Because I think you a little less than me, but I very much come from the conservative political tradition, a conservative legal tradition. I was a president of the Federalist Society on a college campus a long time ago. And many of these people are people you also have come into contact with.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And we watch people we know, sometimes cynically, or at least at the start it's cynical, then it becomes more fanatical. People we knew from the Claremont Colleges, which became a center, has somehow become a center of right-wing anti-constitutionalism.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
How do you cope with this in your, and I'm not gonna ask you to use names or anything like that, but in your private life, how do you cope with people whom you once held dear going off on these bad paths?
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Because at this interval of eight decades, I think it's maybe most useful and most necessary not to think about what ended, the war in Europe that ended on May 8th or the war overall that ended on September 2nd in Tokyo Bay. I think it's more useful to think about what began the process of reconstruction and reconciliation that occupied the next eight decades.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And let me end with this last more hopeful thought, maybe. Maybe what happens in the lives of countries is you get these periodic moral crises as a sort of prod to alert us. I mean, American politics was much cleaner after Watergate than it had ever been before Watergate. Before the Second World War, America was a democracy for some people, but for many, not.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I mean, there's a lot of research now about how much of the Nuremberg laws that the Nazis imposed on German Jews in 1935 were based on the everyday practices in Southern American states in 1934. And Americans, not only did the Nazis notice it, but Americans noticed it too and became ashamed.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And you wonder if there hadn't been a World War II and if there hadn't been a Cold War, would the transition away from racial segregation in this country have been as dramatic and decisive and more or less peaceful as it was? So maybe this is one of those – I think – doesn't Lincoln say something in the second inaugural address? This is one of those offense that needs to come.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And maybe it's an offense that needed to come because – the people who'd grown up since the Cold War had lost sight of some of the things that we experienced during the Cold War, but why democracy was precious and worth fighting for.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
The way in which former enemies became present partners. The way the Germans and the Japanese themselves discovered in their own defeat, their own liberation, because they came to accept the values for which Americans went into battle. The story of how we turned the chaos and trauma of the Second World War into something better.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And there's never a conversation I have with you where I don't come away feeling I've learned something. And maybe also... steeled myself to try a little harder and better. So, so thank you. It is such a pleasure and it's such a kind act that you would come and talk to me.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Thanks to Anne Applebaum for that fascinating and inspiring conversation. I'm so grateful to her for joining The David Frum Show. Now, I'm going to put in a commercial here for The Atlantic because Anne and I are colleagues there.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And if you like what you see and hear on The David Frum Show, remember you can support Anne's work and mine and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at theatlantic.com slash listener. Repeat that slowly, theatlantic.com slash listener. And now some questions from viewers and listeners that I'll try my best to answer. The first question is from Sorin.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Sorin writes, I'm a high school student in Seattle, and I've noticed many of my peers are deeply polarized, often echoing media talking points and struggling to engage in thoughtful political discussions, especially across party lines. How can I encourage more open, level-headed political conversations among young people who seem entrenched in tribal thinking?
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Well, Soren, I commend you for this open-minded approach and for your patience with your peers. And I salute the question you're asking. It's a difficult problem. And look, it's not like those of us who are older succeed any better at it than those of you who are younger.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I think one thing I remember doing this when I was in high school and debating with my friends is sometimes saying, look, I'll tell you what, I'm going to give you one thing to read. And you can do the same for me. You give me something you want me to read. I'll give you something I'd like you to read. Let's read them both together and then talk about afterwards what we've read.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And not Americans alone, but Americans working with allies, working with defeated adversaries. That is not as dramatic as the battles of World War II. I don't know that people are going to make successful documentary series out of trade negotiations and food aid and the negotiation of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. But those achievements were great.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And if you can limit the conversation to what's on the page, no what about questions, no what do you also think, just what's on the page. I think the more you channel a conversation, the more productive it can be. And at the very least, you can introduce your friends to a better quality of reading material than maybe they've been reading so far. Here's a question from Bruno.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
In the latter part of the 19th and first half of the 20th century, working classes supported political movements that bettered their lives against the so-called robber barons. Now, it seems they support political movements which worsen their lives to the benefit of billionaires. Why?
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Well, congratulations, Bruno, for putting your finger on one of the most vexed questions in all of American history and political science. In the 19th century, across most of the industrial world, Germany, Great Britain, Belgium, Italy, there arose social democratic parties associated with trade unions that tried to advance a worker-focused agenda.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
The United States never produced such a movement, such a party. Instead, the United States produced protest movements that operated within and against both the Republican and Democratic parties, never producing a really effective broad-based social democratic movement. So that's the historical part.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
To your question about the present day, I think the problem is in the modern world, the idea of working class is an idea that makes less and less sense. So many people claim to be working class, and it's often very hard to understand exactly what they mean or they mean contradictory things. Very classic example.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Imagine an argument over Thanksgiving dinner between one brother-in-law with a high school diploma who's working as a car salesman and in a good year might make $120,000, in a bad year makes $60,000, but has not that much status in society and is a little insecure about his academic bona fides.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And he argues with his brother-in-law who's an adjunct professor at a local college who makes maybe $45,000 a year, but who has a PhD. Which of them is working class? Well, they will argue about that all night.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I think just generally class-based analysis doesn't really work all that well in America because it's a country with so many differences of people's situations that people often end up transposing class as a marker of attitude and consumption patterns. I remember a political scientist named Charles Murray wrote a quiz years ago in which he asked the question, how thick was your bubble?
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And he had a set of questions and they were all cultural. What kind of clothes did you wear? What kind of cards did you drive? That's what made you working class. And the idea was he was very hostile to people who got a lot of their position in society from their levels of education.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
But if a person with a lot of education is economically precarious, it works under the direction and control of others. I don't know what we are saying when we say that that person is or isn't working class. In 2024, Donald Trump did very well among the most affluent people in society. The Republican vote still skews rich. There are a lot of people who tell you it doesn't.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
But the way they get to the claim that the Republican Party is a working class party is by using education as their metric rather than income or rather than working under the supervision and control of others.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
From Jeff, at what point will the Trump administration start fudging or outright falsifying economic data, such as jobs reports, inflation measures, and consumer confidence data, and other traditional information put out by the departments of labor or commerce? And how will we even know the information is bogus? This is a great question and an important question.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
A big part of the project of Elon Musk's Doge, I don't know if I'm supposed to pronounce it dog or Doge group, was to break a lot of the conveyor belts for reliable public information. Not so much to create false information, but just to withdraw accurate information.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And they are the things that at the eight decade interval require us most to be mindful because they are the things that are most in danger of being lost. You know, they're marble and bronze statues that commemorate all the horror and bloodshed of the war.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And we see the president himself doing his bit by making up these crazy stories about the price of gasoline based on strange data sequences like wholesale prices, not the price at the pump. Mercifully, there is abundant private sector data on many economic issues that you can get some idea of whether things are right or wrong.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
The government produces jobs reports, but there is a lot of information from purchasing and things like that that tends to be proprietary and is sometimes expensive. But the people who care about these issues can track and will begin to sound an alert if the government information is wrong.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I would worry in the immediate term, not about false information, but about lacking information, absent information, broken information. That's the direction the Trump administration with Elon Musk's help seem to be heading. And the last question from Colin, he quotes something I said on air in an episode or two back.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I had always thought of myself as a conservative because I believe in things like a strong and robust foreign policy to oppose authoritarianism abroad, in free markets and personal liberties and in constitutional values that underpin our democracy. Colin asks, well, why do you call those things conservative? And I suppose I'm reflecting the world in which I came of age.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
But in the late 1970s, the question of market or not market, that was a lively debate. And the people who were skeptical of markets proudly identified themselves as being on the left. That was a time when there was a lot of post-Vietnam trauma over America's role in the world.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And the people who were more skeptical of that role, who doubted that the United States was a force for good or anyway thought that good intentions would likely go awry, Again, they mostly, not always, but they mostly identify themselves probably as being on the left. And so it seemed to me that the people who are opposite those things were the people on the right.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Many of these are deep American values that normal times are more broadly shared. Unfortunately, we live right now in what is not a normal time. And a lot of the things that I thought of when I was a young Reagan enthusiast in 1980 that I thought of as belonging to the Republican Party and the conservative movement, they've surrendered those commitments and those beliefs.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
But those quiet victories of peacetime that built a better world, we're in danger of forgetting them because right now the United States is step by step unraveling its own great achievement. Winston Churchill described the Battle of Britain in 1940 as Britain's finest hour.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
This episode of The David Frum Show was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Abed is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I'm David Frum. Thank you for listening.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
This podcast will post in the week that the world commemorates the 80th anniversary of the end of the Second World War in Europe. The Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler committed suicide on April 30th, 1945. After his death, the German armies in Europe, one by one, began to approach the Allied commanders to surrender in Italy, in northwestern Europe.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
If Americans are looking for a finest hour of their own, it's not anything that happened during the war when America was, by the way, a late entrant. It's the five, seven years, 10 years after the war when Americans and others learned from the mistakes after the First World War and built a better world that we still enjoy.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Now, all of those lessons have been forgotten, and Donald Trump is single-handedly determined to repeat all the mistakes that, after the First World War, put the world on the path to the Second World War.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Protectionism, isolationism, narrow nationalism, lack of forbearance, lack of mutual understanding, lack of any understanding of America's place as a leader because of its values, because it's a country that is admired and trusted, not just because it's a country that is strong and powerful and feared. We should think...
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
of the 8th of May and the Victory in Europe Day and Victory in Japan Day as the beginnings of our modern story.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And maybe the message that we need to hear from leaders is not a message of self-congratulation and self-celebration, but a message of rededication to the work that was done after the end of the war to build a better world that those of us who grew up in it had the privilege of enjoying and that we are at risk of not bequeathing to the generations that come after us.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And now my conversation with Ann Applebaum. But first, a quick break. Thank you.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I am so pleased and happy to welcome today Anne Applebaum to join the conversation. Anne Applebaum is one of the world's leading thinkers on problems of authoritarianism and democracy. Normally, you have to say English-speaking world, but not in Anne's case because she's just been awarded a prize as the hero of the German nation. She's, of course, a colleague at The Atlantic. She is a dear friend.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
She is the author of books that have shaped the way we all think about these issues. Her book Gulag won the Pulitzer Prize in 2004. She really did win a prize. as hero of the German nation. Other prizes too many to count. She's also a longstanding dear, dear friend of mine and my wife. My wife and Anne wrote a cookbook together.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
So we're going to be making a lot of references to a lot of common points, and I hope they're not too obscure. But before we begin, I have to ask Anne, But the president's comments this weekend about Americans, especially American girls, owning too many pencils.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Finally, on May 7th, the overall command structure of the German armies approached the Supreme Allied Commander, Dwight Eisenhower, to discuss an instrument of surrender for all the remaining German forces. The original instrument of surrender was rejected by the Soviet army. It didn't mention the Soviet Union explicitly, and they had some other objections to it.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And the reason I'm raising this is on my way into the little home studio I use, I accidentally tripped over the case in which my wife keeps her art supplies. And the president had been talking about American women having to – so I found not one case of two dozen pencils, but – All of these pencils.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And I feel a certain shame that America can't be great again so long as we are indulging this insane accumulation of excessive numbers of pencils per person, especially per female person. The president's words reminded me of a line from a movie.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
I think we both love Ninochka, but with Greta Garbo, in which she explains as a Russian operative that the goal of the Russian state is fewer but better Russians. And I think we're all looking forward to a world of fewer but better pencils. Well, maybe worse pencils. Is there some phrase from the Soviet Union about people who accumulate too many pencils?
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's something quaintly, um, old fashioned about this. Like the, you realize the last time he thought about getting gifts for the children, pencils were a big item. You could, along with a tangerine perhaps, and maybe like a wooden doll, the idea that you would buy, American children say, here you go. Happy birthday. Pencils.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Your most recent book is a book about the intersection of autocracy and corruption. And that's the theme of your most recent article, very important article for The Atlantic. I want to start by raising a problem that you and I were talking about just before we began, which is In the Trump era, there's just too much bad news to keep track of. There's one appalling incident after another.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
There's one absurd incident after another. There's this pencil matter. And so the way I thought to set you going was I think I can group the things that have happened in this first term into six major headers. of which the corruption theme is the last and the binding one. So the first is attacks on due process and individual liberties for disfavored entities and persons.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
So that's the attacks on law firms. That's the removal of due process from people who are suspected of being in the country illegally and bags are put on their head and they're sent to El Salvador without a hearing. The second category, so the first is attacks on due process and rights for disfavored. The second is impunity for the favored. So pardons for the January 6th criminals.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And so the final instrument was negotiated during the day of May 8th, was agreed shortly before 10 o'clock PM on the 8th of May, and went into effect a little past 11 PM on the 8th of May. 11 p.m. May 8th was, of course, the early morning in Moscow, May 9th. And so this chain of events is left ever afterwards, a question mark.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
Lots of pardons for Republican officeholders who get caught up in corruption charges. There seems to be one of those a week. So due process for the disfavored, impunity for the favored. Then a foreign policy.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
that attacks allies and sympathizes with foreign dictators, then the reconstruction of the whole American economy on lines that empower the state and create more favor, ability of the state to dispense favors, attacks on science, medicine, and otherwise objective sources of information, and then finally, self-enrichment by the president, his family, his friends.
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
And one of your many great contributions is to say this last is the binding agent that unites all the others. Can you take it from there and explain how we should think about this?
The David Frum Show
The Most Corrupt Presidency in American History
But what is the exact and proper date of the end of the Second World War in Europe, whether it's May 8th, as it was in Berlin and where the Allied armies were, or May 9th, as it was in Moscow? Of course, the war itself would continue for more months.
The David Frum Show
Introducing: The David Frum Show
I'm starting a new show where each week I'll dig deep into the big questions people have about our politics and our society. I'll explain progress that the peoples of the democratic world have made together and remind you that the American idea is worth defending. Listen to or watch The David Frum Show wherever you get your podcasts.
The David Frum Show
Introducing: The David Frum Show
To preserve democracy, one has to believe in it. To believe in democracy, one has to understand it. Where it came from, how it works, what's true, what's not true, what others did before you, how it could be better, how to make a difference. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic.