Anne-Marie Robinson
Appearances
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Did the school, the superintendent, the principal, the guidance counselor make you feel like this was your fault, that you had done something wrong? Oh, yeah.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The encounter between the music teacher and Ali took place on a spring band trip. Ali reported to her guidance counselor as soon as they returned. There were only a few weeks left in the school year. The music teacher finished out the year at Markham High. In June 1987, he conducted that last concert in his tuxedo.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The students gave him an emotional send-off. It's on that cassette tape Ali shared with me. I don't believe Doug Walker's voice is on this tape, but it's our band playing our final concert. Several former students and teachers have told me what they heard back then. It was a rumor. The music teacher had been caught drinking alcohol with students. He'd broken the rules. He was moving schools.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
At the time, only a small group of people knew the real reason he was leaving. Allie knew.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
I'm told by a current professor of family law that having sex with a student should have been the legal basis for the teacher's dismissal in 1987. In other words, Walker should have been fired. But the expert tells me this didn't occur very often, and we know it didn't happen in this case. It was common just to move teachers.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
My questions and freedom of information requests to the school board have provided no answers. As I've mentioned before, the board says no records exist. The music teacher moved to another school within the same board, but Ali says rumors continue to swirl.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The European trip, that's the one our diary keeper Jackie Short told us about. It's when she reported Walker to an administrator on a boat trip in Germany.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
After he moved to the next school, he still taught music, led the band. But he would not be the head of the music department there. That was his demotion.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
That spring, Jackie was away at university. She had graduated five years before, but she heard the music teacher was heading to another school. The news was spreading on the alumni grapevine.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
And Anne-Marie, you did something too. These women all did something. You came to me.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
And if you hadn't come to me, none of us would be here. That's true. This club wouldn't exist without Anne-Marie. They wouldn't all be together sharing their truths. But why did officials never tie any of these stories together? There are three women in this room who went to authorities when he was still teaching. Jackie told an administrator in 1982. Nothing was done.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Ali told senior administrators in 1987. He moved to another school. Jeannie, JM, went to police about 10 years later. Anne-Marie quotes from Jeannie's police file in the late 1990s from memory. She's recalling information police obtained from the school board.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
That means Jackie's 1982 complaint wasn't heeded or documented. Nor was Ali's 1987 report to a principal and a school board superintendent.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
I mean, to Anne-Marie, it makes no sense.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Anne Marie, the policy wonk, has continued her research. She hopes to advocate for change. She now has a better understanding of the gaps in rules for teachers and the laws protecting kids. She knows those gaps are still problematic today. Sexual assault laws changed in the 1980s.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
It later became an offense for a person of authority, including a teacher, to have a sexual encounter with a person under 18. The crime is called sexual exploitation. Anne Marie thinks this law could apply to what happened to Ali.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
I just don't understand. Exasperation hangs over the room. They need a break. It's time for cake and yearbooks.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Nice walker. Allie cuts the coffee cake. Jackie pours the tea. Other beverages are passed around, poured into glasses with long stems. Yearbooks, diaries, journals, and band trip photos are scattered across the wooden table. Look at him.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
There's another one. He looks wasted.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Ali hasn't seen Jackie's diaries before now. She's the youngest of these survivors. I can tell she's overwhelmed, yet comforted by this invasion of her home. This is all so new to her.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
What makes you angry? Tears well in her eyes.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Well, it's kind of the same thing.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Just that somebody could be this diabolical. Jeannie gets out of her chair, comes over to where Ali is sitting, arms wide open.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
And that other people let it happen.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
You were only 17 then, I guess, eh?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
They never found out at the time, but... You have a different support family here. Yeah.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Well, and not only are you believed, but you... You're not alone, and there's people that know exactly how you feel.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
And yet I still get teary when I talk to you all too. Like this is painful stuff we're bringing up again. and being asked intimate questions about, so it's okay to be emotional.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
For more than 35 years, Ali has lived with this, mostly on her own. But everyone in this room, in the club, is trying to figure out how it could have happened, over and over. They feel like victims of gaslighting, stuck in their own heads too long, unsure about what's real. When authorities didn't act, was it really because there was no crime?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
I'm going to leave the clubhouse for a bit and introduce you to a woman who spent her career researching the abuse of children, people from age 0 to 18. This is someone who can give us some perspective.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Her research started in her home country, South Africa, but her work is international. Canada is home.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Beverly has a lot of initials after her name, including a PhD in psychology. I explain the dilemma of the women in the club, how authorities have perceived what happened to them. There's a perception that there's no crime.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
It's been more than three decades. It will never be over for Ali. That concert was a pinnacle moment. He was leaving Markham High because of Ali.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
And Beverly says when the victim is a girl, there are even more opportunities for disparity.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Back to the clubhouse. It's well into the evening when someone new arrives at the door. A surprise visitor. Another member of the club.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
She doesn't know any of these women. They've never met nor spoken. I had just spoken to her the day before for the first time. She got in touch with me after she found out about my investigation. This woman fills in a crucial piece of the puzzle. Knowing she'd be welcome, I threw out the invitation. And here she is.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Siobhan attended Port Credit Secondary School, also in the greater Toronto area. It was the music teacher's first official post. Siobhan sang with his band in the mid-1970s. She later became a teacher herself. I taught drama, acting, singing, dancing. Siobhan is blonde and fit, wears a casual summer dress. She drove about 35 kilometres to get here to meet the others.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
So after you reported him, he didn't have to leave the school or anything. He got a big farewell. Yeah. Right, yeah, he finished out the school year and... And went on. To another band. At another school. The band teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of The Band Played On. In 1987, Ali blew the whistle. She was shunned and shamed. He made me feel terrible. that he was leaving the school.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie and Chiffon quickly discover a familiar pattern.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Yeah, longer sentences.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Yeah. She means two alleged victims of sexual abuse at her school, same music teacher. The women in this room encountered the teacher at three different schools over a 13-year period. They compare notes.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Siobhan and her friend at Port Credit Secondary School. They came first. 70...
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Then Jeannie, Jackie, Ali, and there are others we know about at Markham High.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
I do have a growing list of women who say they were sexually harassed or assaulted as teen students by the same teacher. I've spoken to more than a dozen alleged victims. But not everyone wants to speak publicly about what they went through. I understand that. Others will eventually join the club, but it'll take some time. Siobhan has taken a big step just coming here.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
And she's asked me to only use her first name. Siobhan was younger than the others when it happened to her.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Chiffon says she was molested by the teacher after she turned 14.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
She's trying to make light of a heavy topic. But Chiffon says it was a loss of innocence.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
It's been hours since the coffee cake. They've shared stories all day. And everyone needs to eat. We have food, even more important.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Well, I microwaved it myself.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The women fill their plates, find a seat around the table.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie has been waiting patiently for a lull in the conversation. She has a question for Siobhan. Anne-Marie wants to know about something rumoured to have happened at Port Credit Secondary School when Siobhan was there.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The teacher told Anne-Marie the punch story right after her band trip to Belleville at the start of what she calls his abuse and what he calls consensual sex. How many times has Anne-Marie repeated that story about the punch?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
For Chiffon, it explained the music teacher's sudden departure from her school. She says the teacher had been touching her sexually.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Chiffon says the teacher also shared a bed with her friend, who was 16 at the time. I can't reach out to her. She recently died. But Chiffon says the other girl's father found out about the alleged sexual abuse. The dad went to the school. He told an administrator. So her dad is this...
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
That strong guy, he hit the teacher. It kind of sounds like out of a movie, too. After the punch, he was gone the next day. At least that's how I remember it. The teacher left Port Credit Secondary School long before the school year was over, and he ended up at Anne Marie's school a few months later. In 1975, the punch and being forced to leave the school should have sent a strong message.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Sexual encounters between teachers and students were wrong. But it appears a pattern was set, a pattern that would repeat at different schools with different girls. And Anne Marie says rather than stopping that kind of inappropriate behavior, he used what happened at Port Credit to manipulate her.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Anne Marie would really like to meet that father. But I know the father would not want to talk about it.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
What was he going to tell his wife? The complaint came five years after Jackie Short reported the band leader's bad behavior to an administrator. Nothing was done. By 1987, the music teacher had already worked at three different schools. He would go on to move schools four more times before he left teaching. These ladies all reported him, but he kept teaching.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Yeah. It's because he's an adult who did something. He reported the alleged abuse to the administration. These women have so little evidence other adults tried to stop the abuse.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
They all like that idea, reaching out to the father. Punch Daddy. Probably a good name for him. But for now, it's time to say goodbye. The inaugural meeting is coming to a close.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
I asked Doug Walker about allegations made by Ali and Chiffon. He declined to comment. Next time on The Banned Teacher.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The band Teacher is investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Allison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Eve Saint-Laurent is our legal advisor. Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer and Jen White provided valuable production advice.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. The managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you want to binge the whole series, subscribe to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description or binge listen for free by logging in to CBC Listen. If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault center, or rape crisis center in your area.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Now, decades on, survivors are getting together for an inaugural meeting.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Episode 7, The Club No One Wanted to Join.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
I hand over a coffee cake, grip my microphone. I plan to keep recording for the next several hours. Today, we get to meet, chat, and eat cake together.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
No, I'm good for now. This is Ollie's cozy 1930s-era home with original wood trim. As a real estate agent, these are the kinds of things she'd notice. An upright piano sits on one side of the room, a fireplace on the other. The women are here from all over.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
These are the four founding members, but other affiliates will connect soon. Anne-Marie Robinson, with her dark hair no longer hiding her green eyes, is finally with her people. Jeannie, JM, is the first survivor Anne-Marie and I tracked down. Then we met Jackie, the diary keeper and opera singer.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Ali, whose home we're in, came into the picture after my investigation was published a couple months ago. The fact these women are now together is a marvel. But here they are, face to face, catching up and taking stock. Jeannie and Anne-Marie still find it odd the police didn't connect them before I did.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The Markham High School Band, more than 35 years ago.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie went to the police in 2017. She had no idea Jeannie had already gone to another force in the greater Toronto area about 10 years earlier. But Anne-Marie did know there was another victim. She knew someone had gone to the Ontario College of Teachers. The name on the public document is blacked out. Anne-Marie thought the police could find that woman. We now know that woman is Jeannie.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Ali flips the cassette case over in her hands. They made copies for students. Allie played trumpet in that band. In grade 11, her strawberry blonde hair was permed. She had fair skin and freckles, often wore a baggy jean jacket. But this event was formal. The performers wore white shirts under navy blazers. The music teacher sported a tuxedo. I've seen the photos.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
That's the coping mechanism. They've come together with one main thing in common, and it's not pleasant. So laughs are a reprieve. There are four women in this room, aside from me. Sometimes they talk over each other, interrupt or change the course of the conversation. Don't worry if you lose track of who's talking. The message will be clear. So we're in Ali's home. The warm-up act is over.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
It's time for Ali to share her story with us. I'm not using her last name to protect her privacy. She's already spent years trying to get beyond the shame of what happened in high school.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Ali is now in her early 50s, the youngest member of the club. In May 1987, Ali was 17, strawberry blonde with the perm. The Markham District High School band was on its spring trip, five days in Montreal. Just like Jackie, Ali kept a journal. She still has it. She wrote about the music teacher too.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
And just like in Jackie's diaries, Ali's journals reveal a teacher who insinuated himself into the teenager's orbit.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The last night of the Montreal trip, both she and the teacher were intoxicated. She says he propositioned her. They ended up in his hotel room. She says she went willingly.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
I've spoken to her friends, girls who were there that night. One says the teacher peeked into the hotel corridor. He asked her to come get Ali from his room. The friend says Ali was passed out on his bed. Her pants were undone.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
The teacher had sex with his 17-year-old student. Allie's friends confirm her entire story, and one of them says the teacher propositioned her as well. The next day, they headed home.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Including the sexual intercourse, oral sex.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
Yeah. She says the responsibility was put on her, a kid, to tell the music teacher she had reported him.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
It was humiliating. Her gaze is down. She's petting a sleeping dog. Its furry head is nestled against her on the couch. I'm still having trouble looking people in the eye, talking about it.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E7: Club no one wanted to join | The Banned Teacher
This was the music teacher's swan song. He was leaving the school.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
at some point made me feel like I was actually his girlfriend, which I knew I wasn't because I knew that what we were doing or what had gone on was wrong. And it had to be kept secret. He was sneaking around. I mean, you know, he would treat me differently in private than he would in public. He told me I wasn't allowed to tell anyone anything.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
what was happening she still can't make sense of it a man having sex with a kid he never forced me i wouldn't say he forced himself on me it was more like a routine uh i was an emotional prisoner nada like he would get me in circumstances and then i didn't um Yeah, I don't really like to talk about it, but yeah.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I remember being with him going to the Royal Regiment band and him driving me around. Walker would take me to the armories and there was drinking after.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
They're a good band. I mean, I think they're still a good band now and they were a great band in the in the mid 70s and I was a member of the union and I got paid really good money to play, which for someone who was raised by a single mother and my mom was on social assistance, it was like, I think I got paid $50 a concert, which in the 70s was incredible.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
Well, it was the same every time. We would drive to a street and then he would initiate sexual activity in the front seat of the car. Yeah, it was just kind of expected.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
You go down this kind of awkward staircase into this basement, and there was kind of a stage at the end. It was just like a big, open, empty, cold room. And I just remember trying to figure out where I was going to sit, and everyone in the room was new to me. There was a musty smell.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
There was no follow-up from either the school board or him or anything. I just kind of floated away from school one day. And I went into a deep depression. And I know... I don't have evidence of this, but I know in my heart that everyone knew something was going on and he was out of line. Like, where were the other adults? Why didn't they help me?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I suffered from severe mental illness after I was having panic attacks. I had almost two years where I could barely leave the house. In the aftermath of all of this, I was so thrown off my center and I just felt like a bad person.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I got married at 18 and had a lovely boy. At 21, I figured out that you could go to university without having a high school diploma.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
And then I joined government in 1990 as a GST auditor.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I loved everything about government. I went from department to department and I worked on every file. So I became eventually a policy wonk. You know, I got promoted fairly regularly and then I became a deputy minister around 2010. And then I applied for and got the job as president of the Public Service Commission.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I googled his name and I found a transcript. It was really the first time I think in 30 years I'd have the guts to even think about him. And the victim, he had another victim.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
This woman is my hero. I would love to meet her. And it's the same story.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
It kind of was a dark, dank, kind of cold church basement. But, you know, the people were friendly, and... But again, I was just so focused on trying to get set up and play my horn and was all worried about whether I had the skill level to even be there. The organizer stood up to welcome the musicians. And he introduced two new members. First, Anne-Marie.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
After I walked out of my high school, after Walker, I hadn't touched the French horn. It was like a thing far, far, far in my past.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
He had to be dead and I know one of the psychologists that I worked with, she described it as me being delusional as a way to feel like I could survive in the world if he didn't exist.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I was invited by one of the instructors to go join the National Capitol Concert Band. And so that was in September of 2014. And it was exciting for me because it was recovering something that I had lost because of Walker. And the first rehearsal, they introduced two new members. It was myself and Douglas Walker.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
When I heard his name and I heard his instrument, I thought, you know, the Doug Walker that I knew, Mr. Walker, my teacher, he played trombone. But I thought, OK, it's not that uncommon of a name. And I looked back and at first I didn't think it was him or I wasn't sure it was him. It was an old man and I, you know, I was older too.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
And so at break he came up to me and I looked at him and I said, you remember me? And he said, of course I do. Like I was so shocked. I couldn't be me if he existed. And I know that sounds a bit crazy, but I had spent my life trying to build a strong person. And that person was just so different from the person he left behind.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
At that point in my career, I was the president of the Public Service Commission. I was a deputy minister, and I remember saying to myself, okay, this practically destroyed me when I was young, but I'm strong now. And so I said, well, I think we should talk, and let's go for coffee next week.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
Then... And I looked back and I was just kind of stunned. I thought he was dead. Like I really, in my mind, he couldn't exist. Like he couldn't exist if I existed. It's like seeing a ghost.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I was actually sexually assaulted at this school by my teacher in the 1970s. Oh dear.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
We can't move forward as individuals or as a society if we keep this stuff secret. Keeping this secret has not done anyone any good.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
But this whole journey begins with just one woman and one story. Episode one, The Ghost.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
Okay. San Marie Robinson. And we are in Ottawa.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I would like what I would consider a proper full investigation. She wants answers. I want to do it because I want to understand what happened to me. I want to know if I'm alone or not, if there's other victims. And she's done her homework. You know, by having listened to the band played on, I kind of knew that you had a sensitivity in this area, which was good.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I really loved music and I really loved playing the horn.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
Okay. Well, I was born in Toronto. My mom was a single mother and she was just trying to get by and make ends meet.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
Well, in high school, all I did was band. You know, being in the band and being a French horn player, I had wanted at the time to become a professional musician.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I just loved the music. Yeah, I loved the music. She even skipped a grade. I was supposed to be in grade 10. I was in grade 10, and I was supposed to be in grade 10 music, but Walker put me into grade 11 music.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
He had kind of short blonde hair. He was a bit overweight and tall. the band leader. He was like one of the kids. You know, he hung out with kids, it seems. I kind of associate him more with hanging out with the kids than his colleagues. Which at the time, you know, we thought he was cool because of that. But now it just seems kind of odd to me.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
He would have been in his late 20s, maybe almost 30.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
Her dark brown hair was feathered. Oh, I had Farrah Fawcett hair and I was super proud of that. I would get up every morning and do those big sausage rolls on my head. She became the music teacher's favourite. He paid a lot of attention to me and all the other kids in the school had to share French horns and put them away at night and then sign them out if they wanted to take them home.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
And he used his budget to buy me a horn.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
We were on a school field trip to Belleville, a band trip. And we were all drinking alcohol and Mr. Walker provided the alcohol.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
Kind of the first thing I remember was being in a hotel room in Belleville.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
She was alone with the teacher. And then next thing I remember is he was standing over me in his black underwear. And we had intercourse.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
She started to think it would have been fun if we could play together. And so she really begged me to start playing. So she did. I just started and I just had this longing. And so I got back into playing the horn again.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
And then the next morning, I remember waking up really scared and not being able to make sense of what had happened. I was obviously drunk on the alcohol that he provided. And there was a bunch of other kids there too. And, you know, they remember being in the room.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I don't know. I mean, I was just way too afraid to talk about it. The next thing I remember is going into his office. I don't know how far after the trip it was, but it was pretty close. And I remember him telling me that he had left his previous school because he'd been punched in the face by a father of a student for having some sort of sexual contact with that student. Now, at the time,
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
He told me it wasn't true. He told me that story, I think, to make me feel responsible for his job. And I was in grade 10. I didn't understand the world the way I do now. But at the time, it made me feel sorry for him. He told me his life was hard and so
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
It evolved into an emotional type relationship, but sort of in a Stockholm Syndrome kind of way, like I had no way out.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
I know I was vulnerable and I had no father and my mother was just very preoccupied and for some reason I didn't feel like I could go to her.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
He had sex with me once in the classroom, in a closet. And that, you know, I remember being humiliating I never resisted because I was like I was under his control, but he was going to, everything was going to be okay because he was going to marry me.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
And because of the initial, what I see now, given the fact that I was drunk with the alcohol he gave me as a rape, I was, it was like I was trying to reconcile that.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E1: The ghost | The Banned Teacher
because he was my teacher, he was someone to be trusted. I mean, and so even though I didn't like what had happened, I felt like somehow I was very confused. I mean, immediately after that, he kept telling me that he was in love with me and all of this stuff.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
I mean, how does that happen? And how do people not, like, where were the adults? Then Anne-Marie finds a lead.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
I wanted to buy the best French horn that I could. And it's just for me so beautiful and so symbolic of me taking back my power. And so I talked to people about where do you buy a really good French horn. She was referred to an instrument dealer. And so there's this man in Toronto named Peter Samuelson.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
And yes, he does know Doug Walker. And another kind of strange coincidence in this whole story. I, I'm, I'm shamefully rational in my thought process, but I do kind of feel like in this story, there is some magic in it because there's just so many coincidences. Yeah. She called Peter to explain the connection. I could hear in Peter's voice that he was kind of shaken by what I had to tell him. Um,
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
I think he knew that Walker was in some sort of trouble.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
How does that happen? Like, where were the adults?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
So we must be close. Yeah, I think we're about a kilometer away, I'm feeling. Are you really? I just don't know what to expect. So you turn right at the next stop sign and then a left. You're just one step ahead of the GPS.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
Go past this stop sign. Then at the next one, turn right.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
I got little cupcakes. He's such an important part of the story to us. And yeah, it's hard to understand why. I just think Because we, yeah, I know we see him as a hero, but yeah.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
I was abused by Doug Walker. And he told me that he was punched in the face by a father at a previous school.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
Well, yeah, but he told me that he didn't do anything. So he made himself sound like a victim.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
which i've never forgotten that and i i told julie this story a couple of years ago so when we found out that it really did happen it made me so happy that we found you because it was just it was a way that he tried to trick me but and understanding that it really happened first of all thank you for that because there's now a whole group of us who were abused by this man
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
And you are the only adult in our story who did something about it. And so we wanted to just say a huge thank you for that. Like all of us, we've been talking about you for months.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
Yeah, it's interesting because I'm an absolute pacifist too and would never condone violence, but you stood up to him and I feel like you saved her by getting her out of it.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
I've wanted to give you a hug for so long. Thank you for punching that asshole in the face.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
My circumstances were such that I didn't have a father. And so I would have loved to have had a dad like you would have punched him in the face. And I'm sure she knew that meant that you loved her and you did the right thing.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
I think also the thing I want to get straight is he presented it to me as if he was a victim. He was not a victim. The children, the girls, the students that he abused were victims. And there's more than a dozen that we know of and probably more. Oh, my goodness.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
It's 2022, and he says to me, how did you know about the punch? And I've known about it since 1976, which is, yeah, it's just surreal in a way. Yeah. What a sweet guy. Yeah. It's ironic because we positioned him as a hero just because we have so much anger towards Walker that we had never been able to express. But he's such a decent human being, he...
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E8: The punch | The Banned Teacher
He saw the punch as, like he knew he shouldn't have done it because he, you know, and we know he didn't really want to have to be in a position where, but it's perfectly understandable what he did. So, yeah, he's important to us and an important part of the story. And of course, it's a shock he has to get over by, like he said, how did you know?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
...did have sexual intercourse with Ann Marie Robinson, who was not his wife, without her consent, contrary to Section 143 of the Criminal Code.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
What I'd really like is the police to look for other victims like they do in everyone else's cases.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Why wouldn't you look for other victims? I think it's a pretty standard practice. In this case, there was no news release at the time of his arrest. And so no other victims came forward at that time, which would have been an opportune time for police to properly investigate his career.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I think what the police need to understand is when you're a victim, when that notice is put out, it's like telling you there's a welcome mat. It's like telling you that you're worth something, that they want to hear from you and that what happened to you matters. The message they sent me by not putting it out was that, you know, if there's other victims, they're not important.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
When I saw him, I saw him 36, 35, 36 years after. Okay. And it just, I don't know.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
It was my way of finally telling the world what had happened to me. I had always wanted to have gone and walked into the principal's office and reported what was going on with me at the time. And I didn't have the courage to do it then. So doing this as an adult was my way of walking into the principal's office.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
But I liked the setup in a way that, you know, in a court of law, there's a clear set of rules and there's procedure that's designed to be as fair as it can be. And there's a referee, which is the judge. And so I felt like it was actually a safer place for me to tell my story than it would have been in a school system where I, you know, would have had no control, no influence.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Well, when I first saw him, I thought, I guess I wanted reconciliation. When you're a child victim, you feel shame and remorse right you feel I felt it was my fault even though I knew better and so it was just easier to leave it buried sure but when I actually physically came in contact with him purely by accident yeah then I just I couldn't breathe I couldn't yeah I just couldn't the band teacher
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
And from what I've heard from other victims would have been probably a really bad experience.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
When you, I guess when you freely agree to do something.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Yes, I didn't feel free. I felt trapped and isolated because I had to keep it secret. And I wasn't allowed to tell anybody.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I would not agree with that in the context of a teacher and a student.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Because the reason it's secret is because of the circumstances and the fact it's prohibited by the rules in the school.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Well, I was told by Mr. Walker that I couldn't tell anybody because he would get fired. And so I think that's a fair inference.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Right after the meeting. I remember with him after Belleville.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
He told me that what had happened, well, he first started telling me a story about being punched in the face by the father of a student at a different school and that he had been wrongly accused of having a relationship with the student there. And then he went on to tell me about his background and I had felt sorry for him.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
And then he, in that context, told me that if I had told someone what happened, he would get fired.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I don't remember. I... I remember it happened and I remember like there was no active resistance in terms of fighting him off or something like that.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Yes, I physically went along with it. Mentally, I can't say. Mentally, I was confused and scared.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Well, that and because of the circumstances, I was intoxicated. And that was, yeah, because of the relationship. It was very confusing to me.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
They were all adults. I was the only female and the only, as far as I know, the next youngest person were like three and four years older than me.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
No, that's not fair. There was nothing stable about my life then. I felt scared all the time. I felt at risk. And I never knew what was going to happen. I couldn't make sense of the so-called relationship.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Yes. I mean willingly, but in the sense that I didn't protest. It wasn't like if I'd been with someone my own age. I felt very dependent on him.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I eventually did at the time when he often lied to me and I would find things out. And then it was a process of slowly being worn down, disappointed, humiliated and all kinds of things.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
But having said that, you also feel like you're in the dark.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I felt kind of shut out about the process at the end, so I'm just really trying to understand what's going on.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I feel like the fact that he was my teacher is not a consideration.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
There's no question in my mind that I was re-victimized again during the process. Feeling like nobody was there to protect me again.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
It was my way of finally telling the world what had happened to me.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
It was just this weird combination of Anger, relief, not being alone, but also just like a gut punch.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I do understand that historic cases may not be their top priority.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
clear up some things or maybe go into more detail or whatever then you have no problem with that do you okay good yeah and also i am frustrated about the length of time that it it takes and trying to understand better what to expect next and why it's taking a long time for him to turn himself in right
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I asked for that interview because it felt like Mr. Walker was giving a whole bunch of reasons, excuses why he couldn't come.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
This was just beyond the pale in terms of how long it was going on. And so I kind of started to feel like the police weren't taking it seriously. And so I went to Toronto and sat down and did the interview with him. as a means of trying to compel him as to why this case was important and why it was important to me.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
My grade 10 year. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he started his grooming process then, right? He was trying to convince me that I was special and he was, you know, all of that stuff that I've since read about.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Well, I don't know how far after that it was, probably the next day. I was in his office, and this is when he told me the story about how he was a victim of being beaten up by a man. He had just arrived at Eastern Commerce.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
And he told me the reason why he was sent there was because he had, been accused of having a relationship with a student, but it wasn't true, and then the father beat him up, and somehow he made me feel sorry for him, which is why this kills me now.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
turned himself in. Conditions include no contact. Police took mugshots and pressed charges. Count 1 William Douglas Walker, between the first day of September in the year 1976 and the 31st day of December in the year 1977, at the City of Toronto, did have sexual intercourse with Anne Marie Robinson, a female person who was not his wife, was a previous Chase character,
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Okay, and then there's a second count. The second count. was count two and further that William Douglas Walker seduced a female person, namely Anne Marie Robinson, or a previous Chase character who was 16 years old.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
So I wasn't surprised when I found out he was going to plead guilty.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
Absolutely, yeah. I was happy because I thought, okay, I don't have to go to court. It seemed logical to me because I knew that I knew what he did and he knew what he did. And so I thought, okay, that makes sense.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
He did not have a lawyer, and I don't really know why. I know that he had acknowledged as part of my civil case that he did not deny what had happened.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
criminal cases against the perpetrator, the person who committed a crime against you, but a civil case was against the institution. And I know from my experience in government that if institutions like people can get away with things, they will never change.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
And so part of the reason I think victims should come forward with civil cases is because then the school system and the governments will wake up and realize that there's a cost to this for them and that they need to, you know, work much, much harder on preventing this.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
I didn't understand why he had changed his mind about pleading guilty.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E3: Seeking justice | The Banned Teacher
So I was informed at some point close to the preliminary hearing that the charges were changed. The previous charges were dropped. The new charge? Rape. Let me read the new count to you. Count 1, William Douglas Walker. Between the first day of September in the year 1976 and the 31st day of December in the year 1977...
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie is talking about how the teacher dragged out the court process with his delays.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
I wanted to ask him about the punch, about these survivors, about the stories other women have told me, the ones I haven't named in this podcast. And I wanted to know more about his time with the Royal Regiment of Canada. Why did he leave that band? Why aren't his decades with that military unit not noted on his resume? Did something else happen there? I've tried official channels.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
I've asked other former military band members. They don't have the information. And these are among the questions he won't answer. So for now, it remains a mystery. He's asked me not to contact him further. I don't doubt this has been very difficult and painful for him and his family. And that's something Jeannie addresses.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
The teacher is what connected these women. But it's not why they've become friends. I ask each of them to reflect on getting to know one another through this investigation. Jackie, the diary keeper, starts.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Knowing all the things that you know now, what might you tell that 16-year-old Anne-Marie Robinson story?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
I can see Ali's moved by Jackie's words. Thank you for what you said, Jackie.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
For her part, Jeannie still wants more. She shared another difficult memory with us in the last episode, another indignity that Walker denied. And she's not finished with the criminal justice system.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
This is Siobhan, the first known victim from 1974-75, the one he called jailbait.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Rita, always the quiet one, has been listening to the others. Now she cuts in.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Jeannie, Rita's former bandmate in high school. Both of these women have independently filed civil lawsuits against their former school board, the music teacher's employer. Mediation is scheduled for September 2023.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
The band teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is the finale of season two of The Band Played On. Anne-Marie Robinson is fixing systemic flaws and making sure victims are heard. We wanted to have our own voice.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
She means girls everywhere. In our various conversations, these women have acknowledged their privilege in being able to tell their stories. They realize there are so many others who can't speak out. Women who can't afford to get support. Women who are not believed.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
It's goodbye to the blipsters for now, but Anne-Marie and I are heading back out on the road, back to that unfinished business in her hometown.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
So we're on Don Lens. We're turning onto Danforth now. Anne-Marie and I arrive in downtown Toronto. This is our final trip together. The streets are wet. It's cold and drizzling. So we're almost there.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Almost at Eastern High School of Commerce, Anne-Marie's former school. She didn't graduate from here. She quit to get away from her band teacher.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
allowed into the school, into the music room. When we started out today, Anne-Marie was relaxed and smiling. I can see now she's switched into that familiar robot mode, a defense mechanism I've come to recognize and I completely understand.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
No, it wasn't nice when we were here before. It wasn't. I think I'm going to try and park in the parking lot of the school.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
We know a lot more than we did last time when we were here, but I don't know if that makes a difference. Does it make any difference in how you feel as we're going in?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
So where do you want to go once we get in there? Where is it that you want to go? What do you want to see?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Okay. Okay, well, here we go. We're going to get out and into the school.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
The halls are quiet. The students have left for the day. There are brief pleasantries with the school's current administrator. Eastern Commerce is no longer a high school. It's now the home of the First Nations School of Toronto, known as Wandering Spirit Survival School. This building is almost 100 years old, and it's been going through some significant renovations lately.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
And Anne-Marie and I visit her old school one last time. But first, she gets her music back. Episode 10, Taking Back Control. Anne-Marie's little dog runs circles around her. She's in her living room setting up her French horn for a practice. She cradles that horn. It's the one she bought herself as a special treat. It may as well be made of pure gold. She cherishes it. Oh, it means everything.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie leads the way. Two administrators and I follow. She heads towards the music teacher's office.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
It's now an elevator. Anne-Marie has a worried look. What if the music room is gone too? She tells the administrators why it's important she finds it.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
We walk upstairs, then down a hallway, the one with floor-to-ceiling windows, looking out onto the parking lot.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
The music room is still there. It's under renovation, but it's there. There's a long chalkboard, five white lines, a music staff are etched across the board. But Anne-Marie walks directly towards a door in the wall. She knows exactly where she's going. She opens the door, a closet. She walks right in, and I follow.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Yeah. The administrators hang back, waiting out in the hallway. They give us space. But we don't linger. When she's seen enough, we head back out to join them. They ask Anne-Marie if she's okay. She says she is. And she tells me she's ready to leave.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
You don't, you know, we went in there, you said, I feel like I'm going to cry, but I'm not. And you don't often get emotional. Is that just like a protection mechanism that you have now built in?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
But you were very strong to go in there today. Thank you.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Just days before the podcast production wraps up, Anne-Marie hears from another former high school bandmate. This woman played French horn beside Anne-Marie when they were 16. I call her.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
She wanted me to know what she had witnessed in a hotel room on a band trip to Belleville in 1977, the night Anne-Marie told a court she was raped. This woman says a bunch of band kids were in the teacher's hotel room. Doug Walker was kissing and groping Anne-Marie in front of everyone.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
The fellow student says the next morning, Ann Marie appeared at breakfast, distraught and robotic, with a blank stare. But it's too late for this witness, these memories, to help Ann Marie's case.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Music is the biggest joy in my life right now. She sets her music on an antique stand, a flea market find. First, she warms up. Then she plays. Anne-Marie now plays in multiple concert bands.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
After a 2021 preliminary hearing, a judge determined there was no evidence Anne Marie had not consented to sex with her teacher in that Belleville hotel room. So the case never went to trial. This is a witness and evidence the police never found. Because as far as Anne Marie knows and files reveal, the police never looked. Still, Anne Marie sees it as validation.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
It's yet another new detail in a growing body of corroboration and documentation. Well, it's just so frustrating, right? It's just so frustrating. Over the past 18 months of this investigation, I've found evidence that 15 women were sexually exploited, harassed and or assaulted by the same teacher, William Douglas Walker. I've spoken to most of those women.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
It all started around 1974, Walker's first year of teaching. And from the start, superiors were told about his sexual encounters with kids, students. Subsequent administrators were told again and again.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Ali's experience in 1987 is the last we know of. But in 1988, the music teacher was still being warned to stop his inappropriate behavior with teen girls. After that, he moved schools four more times. We don't know why. Then, by 2001, he was banned from teaching. So far, any attempts to have this former teacher convicted have failed.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
And most of the survivors say success will only come when they see him behind bars. But that's not the only measurement here. Because on this journey, something pretty wonderful has happened. Come on, Arch. Come. Come see. Somebody's at the door. Who's at the door? Who's that? See, you don't bark at her anymore.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Archie the Aussie Doodle has come to know Anne-Marie Robinson well. He doesn't even bark when she arrives at my door, but he's happily wagging and wiggling.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
This is where we first met in 2020, on my front porch in Ottawa. Archie was barking at the squirrels. At our first meeting, I couldn't see the deputy minister Anne-Marie used to be. I saw someone who was broken and lost. She hid under oversized clothes. Long bangs hung over her face like a shield. Since then, I've witnessed a metamorphosis.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Today, she arrives in fashionable pink pants and a deep purple blouse. I can see her green eyes. In fact, they sparkle with a different kind of energy. The confident leader has reemerged. But this process wasn't easy. I took her down roads that I know caused more trauma.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
When you look back at the goals we sort of set, you set from the beginning. Do you feel that we've met the goals? Oh, absolutely.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie still contemplates going back to the police and maybe even lodging a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Commission.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
And how much of telling your story is part of your justice?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
My investigation started with just one woman. Now, Anne Marie Robinson stands shoulder to shoulder with so many others, and not just those who survived abuse at the hands of the banned teacher, but other girls who became victims of men in positions of authority. It doesn't matter that she needed attention. It doesn't matter that she didn't scream or run away.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
It doesn't matter that it took her years to understand what had actually happened and to do something about it. She's done something now for herself and for others.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
The band Teacher was investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Alison Cook was the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin was our executive producer and story editor. Sean Lloyd was our coordinating producer. Ev Saint Laurent was our legal advisor. Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer, and Jen White provided valuable production advice.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Senior web producer Jen Beard developed our website. And special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for all their support. Managing Editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. Ruth Zodu is Senior Managing Director for the Ontario region. If you like this podcast, I have another original investigation that might interest you. That's The Band Played On, Season 1.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
All of the episodes are available right now wherever you get your podcasts. If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help. Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault centre or rape crisis centre in your area.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
and she gives full credit to her daughter for pushing her to do it back when her daughter was in her own high school band several years ago.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
like a little piece of magic or something. Not magic, talent, and hard work. Anne-Marie's daughter is now in her early 20s. She graduated from the Juilliard School in New York City, and she plays in a symphony orchestra in a major U.S. city. You know, it's very hard to become a professional bassoonist and achieve what she's achieving.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Music is in their blood, and Anne-Marie couldn't be more proud. But it also makes me wonder what might have been. In high school, Anne-Marie dreamed of becoming a professional musician, but her music teacher changed her path. Both her kids now know all about that. Anne-Marie says her daughter and her son have been following our investigation.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie hopes this series will explain to everyone the motivation behind her new vocation, because she hasn't just taken back her music. She's also regained her ability to develop and influence public policy and new laws.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Anne Marie has a new job, but this one doesn't come with a salary. It's a passion project, and she's teamed up with Peter Hamer to do it. We're at my place. Archie the Aussie Doodle greets Peter at the door, another dog looking for a cameo performance. Anne Marie's already here. We head inside to catch up.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Peter sits down beside Anne-Marie. There's no need for introductions. They found each other a while ago. I followed Peter's journey in the first season of the band Played On. He's a survivor of sexual abuse by a high school music teacher. Anne-Marie heard that podcast and she reached out to Peter.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
They both realized sexual abuse in schools hadn't been eradicated and new risks, online grooming, texting, are changing the landscape.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie started to analyze all the regulatory and policy documents she could find. She read the education laws for every province and territory in Canada. And then she searched through academic papers. It all showed huge gaps in protections in every jurisdiction.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie and Peter collaborated and started discussions with another group, the Canadian Centre for Child Protection. That charitable organization was doing its own work looking at school abuse. The centre found between 2017 and 2021 more than 540 alleged victims had come forward to report sexual abuse in Canadian schools.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
We have some unfinished business in Anne-Marie's hometown. About eight months ago, several episodes back, we went to Eastern High School of Commerce, the school Anne-Marie attended, and where she says she was assaulted. On our previous visit, she decided she wanted to see inside, but we couldn't get in. Now she has permission. and I'm going to tag along.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
an independent body to investigate reports of abuse by teachers, an office with no conflicts of interest with school boards, unions or governments.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
In fact, the province of Manitoba has recently passed a law to create an independent commissioner and develop a disciplinary process to deal with teacher misconduct. It includes an online teacher registry. Other jurisdictions are listening too. It's actually difficult to overstate the impact of Anne-Marie and Peter's group.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
They have the ear of people in power, and they're talking it up across the country.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
You probably never imagined that you'd be once again really taking deep dives into policy research. No, I thought that I had lost that forever.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Oh, I know that Anne-Marie. And so do her sisters, her blipsters. That's the other group that's helped her regain her strength and motivation. It's time for a catch up with them. There we go. Good morning. Good morning.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
As usual, Jeannie McKay out in BC is the first to log on to the blipster call.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Good morning. Can you hear?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
We get through the usual technical glitches. Oh my God. I'm so bad at this. Eventually, all six women are up on my screen. Anne-Marie, Jeannie, Jackie, Rita, Ali, and Siobhan.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
I asked for this gathering. I wanted to talk to them about a recent development with their former teacher. Doug Walker agreed to speak with me. I have a long list of questions for him. Then a couple days ago, he sent me a letter. He's changed his mind. There will be no interview after all with the band teacher.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie tosses her carry-on bag into the back seat. We wave goodbye to her husband as he heads out for a walk with their little dog.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
I read them the letter. Good morning, Ms. Ireton. I have been strongly advised that in no way should I agree to an interview with the media, and therefore I will not be speaking to you on April 6th. I have paid and continue to pay a huge price for my behavior of almost a half century ago, and deservedly so.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
I long ago lost my self-respect, and my actions have resulted in the loss of my beloved family and all my lifelong friends. Strong language has been used in speaking to and about me, and the word betrayal has been at the forefront. Any awards or accolades that came my way over the length of my teaching career have been dismissed. I face old age alone, and I am bankrupt.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
I have dug deeply and agonizingly into my past. attempting to seek all possible reasons for why I behaved as I did, examining my struggles with alcohol, low self-esteem, and forcing myself to revisit the pain and trauma of a parentless, directionless childhood. Nonetheless, I conclude that I, and I alone, must bear the responsibility for my inexcusable behavior.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
If the women who came forward in your investigation wish to lay blame on me for any misfortune that has befallen them as adults, that is their right. Although I most definitely refute some of the allegations listed in your recent email, it will at this point make little difference in the poll of public opinion.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Profuse and abject apologies for all the harm I caused those many years ago and seemingly continue to cause will offer little or no consolation to anyone, including myself. However, I give them unreservedly and I do not expect in any way to be forgiven. Your upcoming podcasts will no doubt continue to paint me as a predatory monster.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
It matters not how much I have tried over the years to atone for the actions of my younger, adult self. Thank you for your understanding. I will have nothing more to say. Sincerely, Douglas Walker.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E10: Taking back control | The Banned Teacher
Allie's not ready to offer understanding. She reported the teacher to high school administrators in 1987 before he moved to a different school.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
To take away that sting, Anne-Marie is trying to redirect the energy she was putting into the court case. She's doing more research, and she wants to advocate for a better system, one that prevents abuse from happening in the first place, but when it does, provides recourse for survivors.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
But there was one more appearance before a judge. In order for Anne-Marie to tell her story, she had to get the publication ban lifted. That ban is automatic in any sexual assault case.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
I can hear the frustration and loneliness in her voice. She knows telling her story is one way to reach other potential victims. She'd been so hopeful JM, the other survivor, would be in touch. But there's been no response.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Maybe JM just doesn't want to talk. But I have this nagging feeling Anne-Marie's emails simply haven't reached her. The one thing we know, this woman, JM, is brave. She reported Walker to the regulator. She did that all on her own, as an adult. And as a result, disturbing details of her teenage life are in a public report available online, even if her name is blacked out.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Wouldn't she want to talk to Anne-Marie to know someone who shares her story?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
I cold call others who were in the Royals in the early 1980s. One is now a lawyer. He doesn't want to be interviewed, but he knows JM. In fact, he heard from her recently. I pass along my contacts and Anne-Marie's so he can share them with JM. Within hours, we both get messages. Her first message to Anne-Marie still gives me chills.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
J.M. is a teacher, and she lives in British Columbia. She's in her late 50s. J.M. played with the military band, too.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
I was really shocked to see that message. Tell me, how did you get in touch with you? What happened? Anne-Marie and I meet up the next day. We're almost giddy. It's winter 2022 and COVID is a threat, so we're both masked. But I can still see she's beaming. In fact, I've never seen her looking so happy, so relieved. She's clutching her phone, eager for the next ping of a text.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie and JM text daily for weeks. I'm eager for her to be ready to chat with me. While we wait, we continue our search. Anne-Marie and I both wonder if there are others who went to authorities over the years. So I file freedom of information requests to school boards to see if they have any complaint files to share.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
It sounds like Anne-Marie is trying to convince herself. She's actually consumed by guilt when she thinks about this woman. JM's experience came soon after the music teacher left Anne-Marie's school. And Anne-Marie didn't report him back in high school. I felt physically ill at one point.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
I write to all Walker's former employers, the Toronto District School Board, the Peel District School Board, and the York Region District School Board. But each board writes back, no files exist, or if they do, they can't share. Before he taught at Anne Marie's school, Walker taught just west of the city of Toronto. His first job was at Port Credit Secondary School.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
The music teacher was at Port Credit in 1974-75, so long ago. Even the young teachers back then would be in their 70s now. Parents would be even older. Would anyone remember a story about a father punching a teacher? This could just take me down some more rabbit holes. I also contact the licensing body, the Ontario College of Teachers.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
I ask for any public documents collected during its investigation of the teacher. The college does provide a few files, including Doug Walker's resume. It shows he taught at seven different schools, sometimes only staying a year or two, and then moving on to the next. But something is puzzling, something missing from that CV.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
There's no mention of the decades he spent with the prestigious military reserve band, the Royal Regiment of Canada. He was paid to play in that band and he rose through the ranks to master warrant officer and assistant conductor. And we now know from JM, he also introduced her to the Royals band.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
I've contacted Doug Walker. He doesn't want to answer my questions about his involvement with the Royal Regiment of Canada. A band rehearsal at Fort York in the 1980s posted to YouTube by a former band member. Walker appears in the video. He's tall, mustached. Barry Hodgins played in that band with Walker many years ago. He also taught with him at Anne-Marie's school, Eastern Commerce.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
We first heard from Barry in episode two. I've seen Barry Hodgins in yearbook photos. He wore a suit, held a trumpet. Barry suspected something inappropriate was going on between the other music teacher and Anne-Marie, but he never reported it.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
He tells me Walker brought several students to the Royals' band practices.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
He says Walker was in his element there.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
And as far as Hodgins is concerned, the whole band was a big deal.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Walker must have been well-liked. He lasted. I requested and received Walker's official military records from the Canadian government. The document details his ranks. He was in the reserve from 1966 to 1990, 24 years. Several other former students tell me he introduced them to the band too. They carry great memories from that time. Some went on to military careers.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Walker ran summer band programs for young reservists across the country for years.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
The Royal Regiment of Canada Band played a key role in Anne-Marie's own history with the former teacher.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Even in the summertime, she says it gave him access to her. Anne-Marie and I decide it's time to head to the home of the Royals.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
It's a chilly winter day in Toronto. We're bundled up. There's a sharp wind coming off Lake Ontario and we leave our masks on after getting out of the cab. An archway marks the entrance to this historic Canadian Forces facility. Inside is a large drill hall. I've seen the videos of the band practicing here.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
She knows what she wants to say, but how to say it?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
It's a weekday yet it's eerily quiet. Lights are on inside but no one seems to be around this entire facility.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
We knock but no one comes to the door. A locked seemingly empty building isn't going to provide many answers.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
No. Quote, Quote, and operational effectiveness. Every allegation is taken seriously and investigated accordingly. In this case, there have been no records of any complaints against this individual. The former member was released from the Canadian Armed Forces a number of years ago.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Officials, be it the military, school boards, teachers, courts, don't appear to have the answers Anne-Marie and I are looking for. But we have made some progress. J.M. has been back in touch with us. She's ready to meet and reveal her identity to the world.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Jeannie McKay, JM. She joins Anne-Marie and me on one of our regular calls.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Jeannie, a teacher, is joining us from her quiet office at school. A big calendar and cards from students are pinned on the wall behind her. Anne-Marie is at home with her little dog.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
They're both all smiles, so glad to be together. It's been two months since Jeannie first contacted us. I cried.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie sends an email to an address she's found online for JM. The introduction is made and we wait. The Band Teacher. I'm Julie Ireton. This is season two of The Band Played On. Anne-Marie Robinson lost her battle in court. The charge of rape was dropped. The case didn't go to trial, but questions linger, and Anne-Marie and I are pursuing answers.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
It's almost like they've known each other for years. And there's a gentleness in how they approach each other, probably because they've lived the same experiences. They share an uncomfortable link to the music teacher, but he also introduced them to the prestige of the Royal Regiment of Canada band. Anne-Marie was about 15 when he first took her there to a practice.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
A couple years later, he took Jeannie.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Jeannie and some of her high school bandmates.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
And for Jeannie, that's where some of her first sexual experiences happened, with her teacher.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Yeah. But there are no records of any official complaints. And just like with Anne-Marie, Doug Walker says his relationship with Jeannie McKay was consensual. Next time on The Band Teacher. Jeannie tells us her story and she tells Anne-Marie they aren't alone.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
And we hear about a haunting chance encounter with her former teacher on a trip to Disneyland.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
The band Teacher is investigated, reported, written, and hosted by me, Julie Ireton. Alison Cook is the story and script editor, producer, sound designer, and mixer. Felice Chin is our executive producer and story editor. Ev Saint-Laurent is our legal advisor. Jennifer Chen, Amanda Pfeffer, and Jen White provided valuable production advice.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Thanks to Malcolm Campbell for reading the judge's decision. And special thanks to the folks at CBC Podcasts for their support. The managing editor of CBC Ottawa is Drake Fenton. If you want to binge the whole series, subscribe to CBC True Crime Premium on Apple Podcasts. Just click on the link in the show description or binge listen for free by logging in to CBC Listen.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
If you or someone you know has been sexually abused, community resources can help. Reach out to a trusted person, sexual assault centre, or rape crisis centre in your area.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Our story began in Canada's biggest city, but it's about to take us across the country and well beyond this one survivor. Episode 4, Hello Powerful Woman.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
To me, the judgment in Anne Marie's case sounds like a 1950s courtroom melodrama. Not a decision written in 2021. That's probably because the Ontario judge is applying a law originally passed in the 1950s. The rape law was repealed decades ago, but it still applies to an alleged crime that occurred before the law changed, like in R.V. Walker.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie's case was one of the last this judge ever ruled on. He's now retired. I ordered a copy of the entire decision shortly after it was delivered. We heard a snippet in the last episode. Here's a bit more of Justice J.C. Moore's ruling in the Walker case. It's read by my CBC colleague, Malcolm Campbell.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Thanks to an old contact at the Royal Regiment of Canada Band, Anne-Marie Robinson now has the name of the other student who reported Doug Walker. This woman blew the whistle. He was banned from teaching. That anxious excitement is back in her voice. So it was very emotional for me.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Anne Marie didn't hear the judge's decision in person. In fact, she wasn't invited to attend court that day. She only saw the decision after I received the transcript. I did come away feeling like the judge didn't really understand what had happened to me. The judge told The Crown the law didn't allow him to make inferences or interpret events from 1977.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Yet Anne Marie says the judge himself made an inference she finds unsettling.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
So why did this case fail before it even got to trial? Judges don't generally talk to the media. The Crown Attorney won't do an interview. So I look for some outside analysis. After four and a half years in the criminal system, Anne-Marie has as many questions as I do. Together, we pay a visit to Pamela Cross. We're in Kingston, in my home. Kingston is east of Toronto, on Lake Ontario.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
There's a fire in the wood stove, knickknacks and art fill cozy rooms. Pamela is a lawyer, often advocating for women and victims of intimate partner violence and sexual assault. I've shared the transcript and other court documents with Pamela. I was just getting so mad, actually, while I was looking at all of this stuff. Silver streaks fall loose from the bun on the top of her head.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Chunky jewelry hangs around her neck. But it's a facade. If provoked, she can swear like a sailor. What the fuck? She grabs her yellow legal pad full of notes on Anne-Marie's case. But this isn't just about Anne-Marie. And it's not just about something that happened decades ago. Pamela sees systemic issues at play in too many sexual assault cases.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
I can't imagine why I would report that to the police. She points to the most recent stats to explain. A 2019 report from Statistics Canada.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
For every 100 incidents of sexual assault in this country, only six even get reported to the police.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie sits at the desk in her home office, talking to me by video. Her brown bangs brush the top of her glasses. Every now and then I hear her little dog yipping.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Or, as in Anne-Marie's case, there's a dismissal. No trial. No conviction. The accused walks away. Pamela gives us her take on what happened in Anne-Marie's case.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
She wonders if there wasn't a better, more appropriate charge other than the one count of rape. She reminds us just how out of date that charge is.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Maybe they had good reasons for that that we're not aware of, but... We're not aware of them. Pamela also wonders if a different standard of proof is needed in these kinds of cases, be they historical or contemporary.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
For the first time since the criminal case against the former teacher was dismissed, I see some hope in her eyes.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
And how about that key issue? What the whole case hinged on, consent. It's not just an issue in historical sexual assault cases.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Is it possible for him to be charged again for other incidents? She's thinking about the times in cars, other band trips, and especially the incident in that closet at school. It all went on for more than a year.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
Anne-Marie leaves Pamela's house, still mulling this over.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
She wonders if knowing this woman and maybe other survivors would have made a difference to her court case. Strength in numbers? Like you said, she doesn't have to reveal her name. To protect her identity, we'll refer to her as J.M.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
A couple weeks after visiting Pamela Cross, Anne-Marie's image pops up on my computer screen. She's put on a brave face.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E4: Hello powerful woman | The Banned Teacher
I know she's still stinging from the dismissal of her case. After all these years, she feels like her former teacher still has control. And it's not just a feeling.
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S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
No, I didn't physically resist, but I didn't... It wasn't consensual, but you knew it was wrong. No, I knew it was wrong, and he was my teacher, and so I did what he asked me to do.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Just wanting him to know that he had abused me, that he had affected my life. I wanted him to realize what he had done was a terribly bad thing and it was really wrong.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
That he used the entire band budget to buy me an instrument. I was mad.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Do you consider yourself a victim of him? Of him? A little bit, yeah.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
How did you sleep last night? I slept fine because the night before I didn't sleep so that helped but yeah I know I was I woke up this morning and I yeah I had like a knot in my stomach and can't eat you know it's kind of I just yeah.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Oh we're going on the subway yeah what I used to take to school every day to Eastern Commerce which was where I went to high school and was abused by Doug Walker so it's kind of
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I don't want to take my mask off. I feel safe for being hidden.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Yeah. I don't mean from COVID. I mean from Doug.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
In a weird way. That's the Danforth there.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Oh, yeah. Wow. I wasn't expecting that. It feels so close. Yeah. And when you're a kid, everything feels further away. Yeah.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
My mom went to this school. Yeah, she went here in, well, goodness, 1940s. And both my siblings graduated from here.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Yeah, see here right here is the parking lot. I get angry when I look at the parking lot because he used to always leave like, like, I don't know, half an hour after school. And I used to get in the car with him all the time. And all the other teachers were around. I don't know why they didn't. Alarm bells didn't go off in their heads, but
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
That's really what I remember most is the music room because that's where my trauma took place.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
That's really what I remember most is the music room because that's where my trauma took place and I... Yeah. And he assaulted me once in the music room in a closet where he followed me in. And I think in many ways that was the absolute worst because I knew that students were in and out of the room and I was just so terrified of how do I get out of here without.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Hi, I'm a former student at the school from the 1970s and I just wondered if I could do a like a really quick walk. I'm well masked.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I was actually sexually assaulted at this school by my teacher in the 1970s.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I want to be in the building. I want to walk through those hallways and not feel powerless. Yeah, and it means a lot to me. I didn't realize that until this moment, yeah. She's smiling, cupping her mug with both hands. Suddenly, a little bit of my deputy minister brain came back and thought, yeah, I'm going to take charge here.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
How did this stay hidden? How does this stay hidden? What did he do to my mind, my psyche, my sense of self that I couldn't come after him sooner?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I want to be in the building. I want to walk through those hallways and not feel powerless.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
It would mean a lot to me. It sounds crazy, but it's just relieving that burden and not being afraid to go in there, I think, is really what it's about.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
My adult brain started kicking in and I had to kind of understand what it was and see it through my adult brain. And that was just such a painful experience.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
It took a good two years after I saw him for me to have to put things in order in my brain to go to the police.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
So the next week we both showed up at rehearsal and after we walked up the street to the coffee shop.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
And so we sat down. I had this whole long list of things I wanted to say. But then he spoke first. He started in the place where he left off when I was 16. Like the first thing that came out of his mouth was, I'm sorry for what it was and for what it wasn't. You were the love of my life. And I remember thinking...
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Like I was so, I can't tell you how shocked I was when he said that because it was just so immature. And then he started talking about how his wife was going out of town and did I want to have a drink sometime. So I realized very quickly in he was, I guess, hitting on me. I don't like that expression, but that's how it felt. And I was just like so shut down. I mean, I couldn't say a thing.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I couldn't get one single thing out. I was just like in shock and like, I think I was like a block of ice. And then he switched right away. It was like switching on a dime. He started talking about how poor he was. He couldn't afford to buy lunch. He'd lost all of his teacher's pension in the stock market. We were there for all of 15 minutes. We just walked out and I said goodbye and he left.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
We went one way, I went the other way and I never saw him again.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
It was like having a box that you put in the basement and you don't look in that box for years and years and years and then suddenly you go down and you open the box and it explodes in your face.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I had just done a parliamentary committee, which for many of us in the public service, those are tough, hard challenges. And it had gone well, and I thought, OK, I'm feeling good about myself. I'm going to sort of tackle this.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I wanted him to acknowledge that he caused me pain and that he hurt me as a child. Like I wanted him to And to say what he did was wrong, that it was unbalanced and, you know, that I quit high school, like I... It changed the trajectory of your life. It did. And there was no follow up from either the school board or him or anything. I just kind of floated away from school one day.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
A few months later, I had a complete emotional collapse, and I walked out of my job at the Public Service Commission. That was the hardest thing in the world for me, honestly, because I loved my job.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
So then I started having panic attacks and anxiety. I was diagnosed with delayed onset PTSD. And so then I went on a long struggle to try to recover.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Yeah, it's this unsettling feeling when there's big pieces that are missing. You just feel like you need to know, you need to understand why this happened, what happened, and what other people who were around at the time thought about. And, you know, in terms of trying to find his other victim, I know he has at least one.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I feel she's the only person in the world who can understand what I went through and she happened after me. And so I really want to, to apologize to her. I know what happened was not my fault, but I just feel that's something I want to do to have closure.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Yeah. And he also told me himself that he was punched in the face by the father of another victim. But reflecting back on it, I wonder if it really did happen. And I believed it at the time, which seems ridiculous. But, you know.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Yeah, I think it may have happened. I mean, it makes sense now to me that it was a poem, that it did happen. And that's why he was, he changed schools.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I mean, in terms of my personal experience, yes, that's kind of encapsulates it. I want to know.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I've done a lot of reading. I think I've read all the legislation in every province. Plus, I've spoken to experts.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
what other people knew at the time, you know, but going forward now to the present, it's really important to me to understand what, what's happening now and why this keeps happening. The system is very immature even today. And so that, that bothers me a lot.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Sounds good.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Good. Yeah, it's kind of... For me, going back into the environment is a bit triggering.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
It's good to get it done and get it over with. It's really weird from a time frame, because for most of my life, when I wasn't dealing with it, I felt like this... happened like 100 years ago but now that I'm into it it feels like it was literally yesterday. Yeah it's kind of a strange feeling. It's good because I'm finally dealing with it because I didn't process it for 40 years.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I still feel like I'm that 15 year old girl and so I'm trying to reconcile those things.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
One of the tipping points for me coming forward, I think I told you this, was when I went to one of my daughter's band practices and I was setting up chairs. I was a stagehand for a grade 9, 10 band when I was in grade 10 when he started to abuse me. And I just, like, I couldn't. I just suddenly realized, like, really, it was so stark.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
These little girls I saw them as, you know, I was a woman in my 50s at that time and I just couldn't understand anything. how he could not see us as children.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
Well, that took time because I think part of when predators groom children, they groom you to be silent. And I think one of the main mechanisms is to make you feel ashamed of it. And I felt very ashamed my whole life.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
I think it's always Eastern High School of Commerce, but everyone just called it Eastern Commerce. Flips to the band section. Yeah, there he is right there. He enjoys all kinds of sports and he likes jazz music. Mr. Walker also plays the trombone in the Royal Regiment band. He feels a student's best qualities are warmth and friendliness.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
This is where I first found the date for the Belleville trip, the one that I was sexually assaulted on. So there he is with a jazz band, so I'm not in this picture. Now where's Christine? There's Christine.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
If I wanted to move forward in my life, this might be the only time in my life that I could say something to him. And so I basically spent the whole week deciding what I was going to say to him.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E2: Time capsule | The Banned Teacher
The women hug, then discreetly check each other out.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E5: The blip | The Banned Teacher
Hi, Anne-Marie. Don't see her yet, but I think she's there. How are you, Jeannie?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E5: The blip | The Banned Teacher
Yeah, we have those days, don't we? Yeah, yeah.
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E5: The blip | The Banned Teacher
So do you have any thoughts or expectations about who we might hear from, I guess?
Sea of Lies from Uncover
S31 E5: The blip | The Banned Teacher
I think his whole teaching career was blippity blip blip, blip after another, right?