Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Sabrina Zohar: Thrive in Love and Business, A Masterclass on Dating and Relationships for Entrepreneurs | E324
Mon, 16 Dec 2024
Sabrina Zohar was on the set of Shark Tank, ready to land the deal of a lifetime. But after 12 long hours, she was sent home because they ran out of time. This crushing setback was one of several low points she experienced in life. Believing there were others also struggling, Sabrina turned to TikTok to share her struggles, from her chaotic dating life to the ups and downs of running her business. Her honest and relatable content struck a chord with so many people, and before long, it led her to a career as a top relationship coach. In this episode, Sabrina shares her insights into online dating apps, attachment styles, and the unique challenges of navigating the dating world while building a successful business. In this episode, Hala and Sabrina will discuss: (00:00) Introduction (03:45) Sabrina’s Early Struggles (10:00) The Shark Tank Dream That Fell Apart (15:30) Finding Purpose on TikTok (22:00) Healing Attachment Wounds (29:40) Turning Struggles into Coaching Success (36:00) The 4 Attachment Styles (43:00) Balancing Business and Love (49:30) Setting Boundaries Like a Pro (56:20) Surviving and Thriving in Modern Dating (01:04:00) Signs You Can’t Ignore in Dating (01:11:00) Negging, Ghosting, and Breaking Free (01:16:06.8) Sabrina’s Formula for Lasting Love Sabrina Zohar is a relationship coach, entrepreneur, and the host of The Sabrina Zohar Show. Her journey started with growing her loungewear company, Softwear, but after a series of personal challenges, she turned to TikTok to share her struggles with dating and emotional growth. Today, she’s a sought-after coach and speaker, focusing on attachment styles, emotional intelligence, and building meaningful relationships. With a viral following on social media and a successful podcast, Sabrina’s influence is reshaping how people approach dating in today’s world. Connect with Sabrina: Website: sabrinazohar.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sabrina-zohar-0488a781 TikTok: tiktok.com/@sabrina.zohar Instagram: instagram.com/sabrina.zohar Sponsored By: Rakuten - Start all your shopping at rakuten.com or get the Rakuten app to start saving today Airbnb - Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host Mint Mobile - To get a new 3-month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com/profiting Found - Try Found for FREE at found.com/profiting Shopify - Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at youngandprofiting.co/shopify Indeed - Get a $75 job credit at indeed.com/profiting Resources Mentioned: Sabrina’s Podcast, The Sabrina Zohar Show: apple.co/4iAuvcf Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find--and Keep--Love by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller: amzn.to/49Bffrr The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists by Neil Strauss: amzn.to/4ivzACO Top Tools and Products of the Month: youngandprofiting.com/deals More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review - ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media's Services - yapmedia.io/
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Burn your fucking checklist. It's not getting you anywhere. Focus on how do I want to feel when I'm with this person? Because you could meet someone that doesn't check those boxes and go, holy shit, I feel amazing with this person.
Sabrina is huge on TikTok. She almost has a million followers. She's an entrepreneur herself and an expert in the realm of dating and relationships.
If physicality is important, don't kid yourself. You don't need to do charity work and date someone because they're nice to you, but you don't even want them to touch you. Talk to me about sparks and how we should think about them. The spark is just your nervous system giving blood to your hands and your feet so that you could run.
The problem is we see someone attractive and go, oh my God, it's a sign.
What we want to look at is what do you feel is important for a sustainable, long-lasting relationship? Number one, always and forever.
You have to.
Yeah, fam, as entrepreneurs, we pour our hearts and souls into our businesses, often leaving little time for love and connection. But what's it really take to balance the demands of a thriving business with the desire for a fulfilling relationship and personal life? My guest today, Sabrina Zohar, is both an entrepreneur herself and an expert in the realm of dating and relationships.
In addition to her success as a relationship coach, Sabrina continues to expand her influence across the entrepreneurial space, fashion, and media, including her hit podcast, The Sabrina Zohar Show. Today, we're gonna discuss everything from her insights into online dating apps, to attachment styles, to the unique challenges of navigating the dating world while building a successful business.
I'm especially looking forward to this conversation because I feel like dating in 2024 and beyond is just so difficult and we haven't talked about it on the podcast in a long time. So without further delay, here's my conversation with the incredible Sabrina Zohar. Sabrina, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. Oh, Hala, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.
I love talking about dating. I'm dating right now, so this is the perfect episode for me, selfishly. Just to kick us off, I've got a lot of listeners who are entrepreneurs in their 20s and their 30s right now. They're dating, they're trying to find their life partner, but they're also trying to start a business or they're already running a really successful business. So first off, what do you think
are the main challenges for entrepreneurs when it comes to dating?
Oh, God. As somebody who is an entrepreneur, I have like a clothing line outside of this business that I built. I can totally understand and commiserate. And I think the biggest challenge that we see with entrepreneurs, especially in the dating realm, is this all or nothing mentality. It's like either I have to completely sacrifice my career to have this family, or I have to be completely alone.
I can't talk to anybody for 10, 15 years, and then maybe I can entertain a relationship. And really where I think that stems from is we have to really look at what are your attachment styles? What were you taught growing up? Are we scared of losing our independence?
Is it that we have this mindset that it's like, I have to be making this much money in order for me to attract the right partner, right? And so I think what we start to see is it's really the core beliefs and the narratives that start to push in its way. Because for me personally, I met my partner when I was in between businesses. So my clothing line,
I was supposed to do Shark Tank, got sent home. It was this whole debacle. And I had been hustling and growing it and doing everything I could and pouring my life in. And then I just realized at the end of it, what did I have to show, right? Okay, so I had money in the bank and I had this career, but I didn't feel fulfilled.
And so when I started this career, I also met my partner at the same time and navigating growing a business and like really scaling a business while trying to form a relationship. By no means is it easy, but it's absolutely possible when we understand truly ourselves, we understand our want, needs, and desires, and we understand the boundaries that we're willing to place.
and have some flexibility, right? If it's, I have to get this work done tonight, I have a deadline, then it's having a partner that understands, hey, I'm so sorry, I can't make it to dinner. Can I make it up to you? And it's really about understanding ourselves, how we communicate with other people.
It is possible, but I think more often than not, we think it's one or the other, and we don't realize you can have both. It's just about balance.
I know that it's difficult for entrepreneurs because we've got this whole other relationship that we're in, which is our business. And it's really hard to just balance work life and relationships. I think for entrepreneurs in general, just finding time for relationships is really difficult.
So for those of us who are in a relationship with a non-entrepreneur, how do we effectively communicate that gap in terms of all the demands that we have in our lives?
Totally. It's a great question. I personally am in a relationship as I am the entrepreneur. My partner has always just had a job. He's just worked in tech. He's never owned his own company. And the one major aspect I think is it's really about the communication.
And it's important to be very clear with the person that you're seeing, you're dating, like, hey, my priority right now is scaling this business, getting it to this level, doing what I need to do in order to get that, which is going to mean that there are going to be sacrifices that need to happen.
I had a talk with my partner to explain, yes, when we wake up in the morning, I'm probably checking my emails. I'm making sure that people in other countries, that brands and things that I'm dealing with in Switzerland that are 15 hours ahead, not Switzerland being 15 hours ahead, you know my point, but these different places, right? You're navigating different parts of the world.
And it's really about being communicative with your partner and saying like, hey, this is part of the gig, right? You want the entrepreneur. You want this person that's so driven and motivated, but that's also going to come with sacrifices that I'm going to need to make in this relationship. But I am still 100% committed to us growing together.
And if you're willing to sit by my side while we go through this, I promise to at least communicate along the way.
I want to talk about your experience because many entrepreneurs, you ended up in a career where you're basically helping who you were in the past. You're helping your younger self now because you had a lot of issues with your own dating and a lot of experiences with your dating. So talk to us about your relationship past, your rock bottom moment, and how you ended up becoming a relationship coach.
I was the epitome of a hot mess. I don't know how else to say it in a polite way. For me personally, I grew up with a father who was an entrepreneur all of my life. My father owned businesses. He never worked for anybody else. And then I had a mom that was a stay-at-home mom.
So it was two very polarizing experiences, one sacrificing everything to have children and then the other one sacrificing everything to have a business. So I grew up with a lot of core wounds, right? I'm not good enough. I'm too much. There's something wrong with me. And it doesn't surprise anybody that I went into sales, right?
I had to sell myself and convince people, and I crushed it as being in sales and working in wholesale and in fashion. I lived in New York for 12 years, and I just started to realize I am the epitome of trauma. I continue to repeat the same patterns. I continue to date the same people. I continue to have the same experiences. And for me, I leaned highly anxious. So
Really quick, just for anybody who's not familiar, we've got the attachment styles. And the reason I bring up attachment styles isn't because I want everyone to start diagnosing everyone they're dating. Attachment styles are just important for us, right? So off the bat, we've got four main attachment styles depending on who you're talking to.
We've got secure, which means I can give and receive love. I understand independence and interdependence. People that are secure grew up in households where their parents were loving and compassionate and gave them the needs that they had. They attuned to their needs. They taught them how to give and receive, right? It's more of a balance. Then we have the insecure attachments.
We have anxious, which manifests in constantly needing validation, everything being external. You tell me I'm okay. I just need to know I'll be all right. Then the pendulum swings, and usually the anxious household is inconsistency, abandonment issues, things of caregivers not being there consistently. Then we have the avoidant, and the avoidant is the other end of the spectrum, right?
The avoidant is not a bad person. That just means when triggered, this person learns to shut down. So the anxious goes outwards. I need the validation. The avoidant looks at this as, I just need to protect myself. Feelings aren't safe. I don't want to deal with this. Too much overload, shut down. So they go inward. And so we see that a lot, especially with high-powered CEOs.
If you're super avoidant, you might be just no emotion, everything is factual, but that doesn't translate into our relationships because we do need to hold space for emotions. So oftentimes, a lot of business owners can be more avoidant-leaning because they learn, let me just dump everything into my business. I don't need to worry about the rest.
Then we have that disorganized attachment, which is the amalgamation, if you will. But it's really that push-pull. I want love. So they have that anxiety of I need it, I need it. But then when they get it, it's no, no, no, I'm scared of it. And they run. So that's where you'll see that push-pull where you almost feel like you're going crazy. That's this disorganized attachment.
Those are really prevalent in homes of abuse, right? You love your caregiver, but you're scared of them at the same time. So it creates that amalgamation. The reason I bring that up is just to say I was the poster child for anxiety, right? I was constantly seeking external validation, inclusive of my business, right? Trying to present myself.
And it was 10 years of doing the same shit, 10 years of dating the same people, dating the emotionally unavailable, not understanding what was wrong with me, feeling so insecure in my business. When I started software, it didn't matter how much money we made. Every day I was scared. Fear. Fear was driving the car. And that's that anxiety.
And for me, that manifested in my dating relationships being shit. I married my father. I married an exact replica of the man I was trying to run away from my entire life. And after that, when I hit rock bottom and I just said, I'm a shell of a human. I don't have any money. This was 2018. And I said, I'm starting therapy.
And that just started to understand, oh, where did I learn this behavior from? Oh, wait, what's coming up for me? Oh, wow, wait, in my business, I'm also manifesting as this very anxious person. And it's coming out in my relationships, right? Like you just start to understand how they're correlating. Fast forward 2022, I moved to LA, I left New York. I was running software.
Software during COVID exploded. We hit a million dollars that year and it was just me running everything. So I was super proud of the business that I'd built. And the next year I'm ready to go on Shark Tank. This is July of 2022. None of what I have now existed. I wasn't a dating coach or a relationship coach or anything.
But at the time, I was doing a ton of podcasts and panels and people were reaching out to me to coach them for business. Like, how do you start a business from nothing? Can you teach me about the mindset and things like that? So I was coaching people off the beaten path, if you will. And I was on Shark Tank and I was like, this is it. This is going to be my life. I'm going to fucking kill it.
I'm going to get this deal. This is going to be it for me. And after 12 hours of on set, they said, sorry, we don't have time for you today. You got to go home. I crashed. That was the second big breakdown for me. The first being when my ex left me and my mom got sick and my life started to transition. I started my clothing company. Then this is fast forward five, six years later.
You're like, it feels like Groundhog's Day. You're like, wait a minute. How can I lose everything again? A month later, my dog passed away. I just couldn't understand what to do. I had no money. My business was in shambles. I broke up with this guy that I was not happy with. My dog passed away. My dating life is shit.
And all I kept thinking was there's got to be other people that are hurting like I am. And there's got to be other people that are looking at the clickbait on the internet saying, but this doesn't resonate with me. I don't want to play these games. So I started to create my own content. I just picked up a TikTok one day and said, let me see if there's other people that resonate.
And that just mushroomed into, okay, there are. And people were coming to me like, hey, can we talk? I want you to coach me. I want to work with you. And I just started to organically build this business on, okay, supply and demand. You want me, I'm here. I'll do what you need.
But all of that was staying really fucking authentic to myself and not changing who I am and not trying to people please and, oh, don't talk as fast because these people don't like it. No, this is who I am and this is how I speak. And that just allowed me to grow that business all while I met my partner at the same time. And my life changed when internally I changed.
As a business owner, I've never been a better business owner because of the work that I've done.
I love your story so much. And guys, Sabrina is huge on TikTok. She almost has a million followers, which is incredible. She has a podcast that literally came out of nowhere and has done so well. It's called The Sabrina Zohar Show Now. And Just an incredible hats off to you for following your gut, for sharing your knowledge. And I love the fact that you didn't study relationships.
100%.
For people that are listening, you're entrepreneurs, right? We're always waiting for the perfect moment. Oh, I need like, even I'm sure, Hala, you could have how many experiences where you're like, I was waiting, waiting, waiting, and then you start something and you just, it works, right? Your podcast, growing, expanding.
I could imagine there was prep, but you just sometimes have to say, let me just go for it. And it was the same. It was seeing a need in the market. And I think that's really something that I highlight with any entrepreneurs that I work with. What problem are you actually solving? right?
If you have a passion towards something and you say, I am the prime demographic that needs this material, well, then it's really understanding who my audience is so that I can resonate more with them. My mama has always taught me, you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time. And
And understanding that, that as a business owner, I can't make everybody happy and I'm not trying to, but by really staying true and just watching the market and being very aware of, okay, this is what people want. Great. Let me give them more. You know what? This isn't what people want. I don't need to put more of my energy into that.
Allowed me to take control of my life, which is also very reminiscent of how we can experience our dating life. I can't control the outcome. I can't control if this is going to work, but I can control how I show up and how I navigate the waters.
A lot of people don't realize that when you start a popular social media account, you're really in the business of audiences. It's not really about what you sell. It's about what your audience wants. And you can just evolve based on what your audience wants. And that's really the future of everything when it comes to online entrepreneurship. Okay, so you talked about attachment styles.
And I love the overview that you gave because I was going to ask you for it. So I'm so happy that you did that. And I want to dig deeper because this has become such a hot topic. I was just on a double date the other day. And the guy that was on the other date was basically like, oh, like, why don't we go round robin and everybody share their attachment style. And we did it as an icebreaker. Yeah.
Which I see you rolling your eyes here for those who are just listening on audio. But I thought it was a cool, you know, I didn't really know what my attachment style was, but it was a cool thing to discuss and see. And even it's relevant outside of just romantic relationships. So it was a cool way to kind of get to know each other as an icebreaker.
So let me ask you, you didn't feel that was appropriate, I guess.
No, because I'll be honest, people are really shitty at self-assessment. So I can, I hear this every day of like, I'm secure and I'm this. And you're like, really? But all of these actions that you're stating don't match secure. And the reality is that attachment styles are not fixed. Wait, wait, before I go on, what did he say he was? I think he said he was avoidant. Right.
And the reality is because then if somebody's saying, oh, I'm avoidant, as the receiving end of that is a woman who has leans more anxious, huge red flag. And the problem is it's not that he's a red flag. It's not that he being avoidant is a red flag. It's because of what we've been taught and conditioned. The minute I hear, oh, you're more avoidant, no thanks, I don't want to deal with this.
And what happens is he ends up shooting himself in the foot because he can change that. He can heal through it. He can say something that would be an interesting topic is instead of asking somebody, what's your attachment style? Because some people would go, I don't know. I don't want to self-identify. The response and the question could be, how do you handle conflict?
Do you shut down or do you need to talk about something immediately? That would give me an understanding, oh, maybe you lean more avoidant. Okay, well, what's uncomfortable about having the conversation? We can have more depth and understanding versus if he tells me he's avoidant and my response will be, oh, well, then what are we doing here? You're probably not even getting, right?
I'm starting all these preconceived notions. Totally. I'm curious, how did you feel received or how did your friend that was on the date feel receiving that?
I know that the person that I was on the date with said that he was also avoided. And to your point, in my head, I'm like, well, I'm just wasting my time here. Why the heck am I here? You know, so it wasn't to your point.
It really did shoot him in the foot. right? Because he could have more avoidant tendencies, but maybe that doesn't come out with you, right? Maybe you're significantly more secure for him and it doesn't trigger him. The problem with setting the stage is that it doesn't allow growth.
It doesn't allow you to change and evolve because the other reality is I might be super anxious with one person, but then I meet somebody else and I'm not as triggered by that person, so I'm less anxious with them because it's a spectrum. And I think that's the misconception is we villainized avoidance, right? I mean, you know as well as I do the content we see on the internet.
And it's not fair to people. So I'll even back up. There's a book called Attached. That's what started a lot of this. Attached was written by Amir Levine. And this was written, I believe, 2007. So it's a minute ago. And it's like the number one book in this field. And Amir Levine has come out now recently saying, I was way too hard on the avoidant in the book.
I didn't understand them enough, and I really villainized them because he made them come off as these cold, calloused, we don't care about anything. We just shut down and remove ourselves. But that's not actually how avoidants work.
There's a difference between avoidant personality disorder, somebody who just avoids everything because everything makes them uncomfortable, versus an attachment style. Here's the thing, you have to be attached for that to come out. So I might not be anxious with someone if I'm not that into them because I'm not feeling that childhood core wound being activated.
So it's not fair for me to say I'm anxious. No, I have anxious tendencies and I run a little bit more anxious than the average person. That allows me space to grow into a different version of myself.
So good. Okay, so is there like a good and bad attachment style? Because it seems like secure feels like the obvious best one that we should all try to achieve is the secure attachment style. But do anxious attachment styles or avoidant have any pros to them? Like, is it really like trying to just become secure?
So when we look at attachment cells, because I think that's a great question, right? It's, we've seen, oh, if you're anxious, at least you're expressing yourself. And it's like, no, you're not. You're just talking. Talking doesn't mean communicating, right? There's two very different things. And same with the avoidant. Well, he just pulls away. Maybe that person needs to process, right?
There are pros and cons to the behavior, depending how we look on it. The reality is our attachment styles are not something that we asked for. So attachment styles form in the zero to six age of our lives. So attachment styles are formed very early childhood, dependent on how your caregivers attune to your needs.
So for me, I have that high anxiety because I came in a household, I had a narcissistic father constantly dismissed us, no boundaries. We would get hit a lot. He was very abusive, very verbally abusive, leaving all the time. And then my mother, instead of attuning to our needs, if my father hit us and we're crying, she would walk out of the room. So as a child, I learned no one's safe.
I have no one I can rely on. There's no object permanence. So that's what bred this, give me the validation. Please, please, I need it. I need it. That doesn't mean that I'm a bad person in my adult life. And on the flip side, my partner, his father was very abusive growing up, and he learned emotions are not safe, so he learned to shut them down.
Just shut up, don't say anything, and you won't get hurt. So as an adult, he really struggles to express himself because he never had a safe space to do so. When we look at people that are secure, people that are secure still feel anxiety. They still have avoidant tendencies. They can still get overwhelmed and remove themselves.
The difference is people that are secure understand that part of being in a relationship is co-creating. I need to be vulnerable and hold space for you and vice versa. So the reality is I have gotten to earn secure.
We can get to an earn secure space, and that just means being okay with myself, being comfortable in my body, knowing my emotions, understanding where they come from, and being able to clearly express that with my partner and not take it personally if my partner needs space. We can all get to these levels, but let's say for the anxious person, there's a lot of beautiful qualities that they embody.
They're very empathetic. They're very sensitive. They're very in tune with other people's emotions. Could be good or bad, right? And then same with the avoidant. They know how to process. Maybe they know how to take some space. They know how to be independent.
It's when the pendulum swings to where the codependency happens with the anxious person and the hyper-independence can happen with the avoidant. And so we're just trying to find a balance between these personalities and this attachment. But there's nobody that's good or bad.
It's really just about how can I come home to myself and feel comfortable in my body so that I can allow someone else to be a human and show compassion to both of us.
And when you say that you have an earned secure style, does that mean that somebody has to earn that from you? Or what do you mean by that?
Meaning I earned it. I had that anxious attachment. Doing the work and becoming more secure is like earned secure. Meaning that I wasn't just born with it, right? I didn't have great parents. I didn't have that home. I didn't have that family unit. But as an adult, I did the work to earn that secure title, if you will. And it's just another way of saying you can change and evolve.
You can get to that level. But I totally understand how that could be confusing. Yeah, it's not about your partner earning it. It's more just how we do the work for ourselves to show up.
I recently did a listener survey and I found out that a majority of my audience has young kids, which makes sense. You know, we've got a lot of 30, 40-year-olds listening to the show. So talk to me about what we should be doing as parents.
So when it comes to these attachment styles, when it comes to that, so there's been a lot of studies done and here's the good and the bad news. Where it really has formed is zero to one. So you have a lot of opportunity when you have a very young child because it actually shows in order to have a secure attachment, your parent needs to make eye contact with you 30% of the time.
It's really not that much, but the way that this is learned, let's say for instance, okay, as a kid, you have a kid, right? And when you put the kid to bed, he starts to scream and cry. You don't go into the room, the child shuts down and learns, what's the point of yelling? No one's gonna come get me.
So they might be more anxious as they get older because they have to scream to get anyone to look at them. So if we think about it, what that really means is understanding that as a parent, and this is probably not a very fun topic or a hot take here, as a parent, your child is meant to inconvenience you. That's the point of having a child is that they need to learn the lay of the land.
So for people that get upset, like my baby doesn't stop crying. Yeah, that's the point of having a child. They need to learn the lay of the land. They need to learn themselves. It's called egocentric age from zero to six. Essentially what that means is from zero to six, children will internalize everything as it's about themselves. They have to be narcissistic.
That's how they're learning the world, right? I do this, this happens to me. So right now, if you have a child, wherever it is, if you start to notice, wow, my kid shuts down, then maybe that's the time to create a safe space to go to your kid and say, hey, what feels uncomfortable about expressing yourself to me? Are you okay?
Just to be there for your kids so that they learn, oh, it's safe for me to express myself. I'm not going to get hurt. Oh, or if your kid feels they get anxious every time you leave the house, it's about asking, hey, what are you scared of happening? Do you think I'm not going to come home for you? I need to let you know I love you and I'm here for you and I'm not going to leave you.
And anytime you need me to reassure you, I will. It's those little things that I'll be honest, I didn't have that as a kid.
It makes a lot of sense. And it makes sense that you can nudge them to go the other direction if you didn't do a great job from zero to one. Because let's face it, a lot of people probably missed that and didn't know. And there's so much information out there, it's hard to know what's the right thing to do. So I feel like a lot of my past relationships have been repeats of my first relationship.
In high school, I had this crazy boyfriend who was controlling and we'd fight a lot. And it was this really energetic relationship. And then I found myself in college repeating the same relationship. And then I had a really long 10-year relationship that was basically a repeat of that high school relationship, right?
So what are your thoughts around that and having your first relationship having an impact on your other relationships?
Oh, it's monumental, right? And because we have to remember, that first relationship was just setting the stage for how you were already feeling, right? Because if you came from a household with two really loving parents that were incredibly secure, that taught you that your self-esteem matters, right?
That you are amazing and you are allowed to set boundaries, you're allowed to say no, then that behavior, you would have been turned off and gone, who the fuck are you? I don't need to deal with this. So I look at that saying, okay, so we see a pattern, right? Okay, there's volatility. Your nervous system feels safe during high highs and low lows.
I have to earn the love, and if I lose it, I have to earn it back. So what I would look at here is saying, okay, if we look at how did you feel in your body, right, anxious and not uncertain and all that, my next question would be, who did that person remind you of from early childhood? When do you remember feeling that in your dynamics?
So I always dated emotionally unavailable men because it was, I'm always too much. I'm too needy. Well, that's because my father taught me that. My father was very unavailable. So I learned there's something wrong with me. I'm too much. So it's a term called repetition compulsion. It's a Freudian term.
And it pretty much means that we are going to re-mimic the same dynamics that we had growing up in our adult relationships because a part of our brain and our psyche believes it's If I can get this guy, then all of the pain goes away. See, if I can prove to them that I'm not too much, then I was wrong. My dad was wrong. Everyone was wrong. But what ends up happening?
It just reaffirms your core belief, right? Because that person's unavailable. That person's not healthy. They're toxic, right? They're familiar. And so what we have to look at is it's not conscious. This doesn't... mean that you're doing this in your waking life walking around. But what we have to look at is and say, what feels familiar?
Like, I'd be curious, Hala, if you care, you know, if you want to be.
Oh, yeah, 100%. As you're saying that, I'm like, oh, it's because my parents were strict Arabic parents that controlled me when I was younger. You know what I'm saying? So they would always try to control me. You can't do this. You can't do that. You can't go to camp. You can't do this. And so then I was, okay, you're telling me I can't go to the gym or I can't wear leggings? No problem.
I'm used to being controlled, you know? So...
That's it. Exactly. And then we see that. And so what we hear there is, oh my God, I have so much compassion. I have so much empathy for that little holla that sees this as, oh my God, but I'm scared. That's dad. I don't want to lose this. And then what the work starts to lie in is to re-parent that version of No, you're allowed to say no. You're allowed to wear leggings.
You're allowed to be the version of yourself. Just because that wasn't accepted as a kid doesn't mean that now as an adult, it won't be accepted. But that starts with us accepting that, right? How am I going to not feel too much in my partner if I genuinely still believe I'm too much?
In terms of who's attracted to who with these attachment styles, is it opposites attract, can secure people only like secure people? How does it work?
Oftentimes what we see is, oh, secure people can date any attachment style and it depends on the severity. So we look at attachment styles like a spectrum, right? And so there's that severe. There are people that are so... emotionally unavailable and what that actually means. And people misconstrue. They think only avoidant people are emotionally unavailable.
Anxious folks are emotionally unavailable as well. Because the anxious person is only focused on, why are you doing this? Why won't you tell me what's going on? Why don't you like me? Everything is external. So what that means is you're self-abandoning. You're not actually in touch with, hey, this doesn't make me feel good. I don't like how I'm feeling.
Then we see the avoidant person, they are emotionally unavailable. I don't want to deal with this. Nope, nope. Emotions are too heavy. This is too much. I relieve. So somebody who's secure could absolutely date somebody with a bit of an avoidant or anxious attachment style because they understand, hey, let me create a safe space.
That person does the work privately and they're able to have a beautiful relationship. Two anxious people don't normally work because you have to remember going after someone anxious. If I come to you and say, oh my God, I really like you. My core belief is there's something wrong with me. I'm not good enough. So I look at this going, no, this is too easy. This is boring. I don't want this.
You like me. There's no chase. And then to avoidance, nobody contacts each other. Like they're both, you know, they're both so in their own world. So really where we see the number one draw is the anxious avoidant trap, right? When the anxious and avoidant meet, the anxious person is gregarious, big, outward, right? They held so much space. They're in touch with their emotions on paper.
And the avoided person looks and says, oh my God, that's so hot. Look how open and loving they are. Look how warm they are. Then the anxious person sees the avoidant as, oh my God, they're so chill. Look, they don't have, oh, they're so independent. That's so sexy. I love that about them. But then as we start to see them, they get triggered. The anxious person wants more. No, no, come closer.
The avoidant person starts to remove themselves and say, no, this is too much. And then we start to see this trap ensue. They both need each other. It's a very codependent relationship because the anxious and the avoidant both need each other for this dynamic to play out.
Whereas somebody secure, if you have someone that's highly anxious and you set a boundary, they're not going to keep dating that person if they disrespect the boundary. So if I'm super secure and I'm dating somebody highly anxious that doesn't respect my boundaries, texts me 24-7, freaks out if I don't text them back in two seconds, demands that I see them 24-7,
The secure person's going to say, no, thank you. That doesn't work for me. And they'll walk away. The anxious person, it's continuing on this trap of you're too much. You're too needy. They get to remove themselves, but they know, wait, but I need you to come back. I want you. The anxious person removes themselves and then the avoidant comes closer.
And it's just this cycle that repeats itself until somebody says, I'm fucking done.
Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. What's up, Yafam? I travel so much for my job these days. And on top of that, I've been spending more time in Miami. In fact, I'll be down there keeping myself warm most of the winter. I love to travel.
But at the same time, I feel like my glamorous Jersey City apartment with its pink velvet couch and skyline view of the city, it's just going to waste. But what if it didn't have to? A lot of people don't realize that they might have an Airbnb of their own right under their noses. Thank you so much for joining us today.
So if you're escaping to the warm weather this winter like me, find yourself a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. Let's move on to the state of modern dating. I think the answer is obvious that it's online, but how has the way that people meet changed over time? And what are your thoughts about that? Great topic.
So I just recently saw a study done for 2024 that 71% of couples, I think it was 68 or 71, I can't remember exact, but anywhere between 68 to 71 majority meet online. And it was like a poll and they showed over the years from the 50s to now how it changed, right? How everything drastically changed. So knowing 68 to 71% of people are meeting online, that's a huge statistic to look at.
But you know, it also is on the rise, 48% increase on Eventbrite for singles events. So what we're seeing is, yes, people are still meeting online, but now we're getting into a time where people are looking for human interaction again. They're searching for it. They're hungry for it. Girl, I can't tell you in LA how many events I've gone to where it's like, it's a singles night.
It's a dating event of meeting in person. We have to look at this as with every pro, there comes a con. I am so tired of hearing online dating ruined everything. Well, that's like saying the internet ruined everything. No, the internet brought a lot of beauty, but it also brought a lot of chaos. With good comes bad. And I think what I see is our phones are little drug machines, right?
It's a dopamine reward system. And for anyone who's not familiar, dopamine comes in anticipation of. So our cortisol will spike in stress, and then our dopamine gets depleted because the brain needs it for the cortisol that's happening. So we're constantly seeking more, more, more. It's a slot machine. So it's the same effects that happen when you walk into a casino.
So what I look at is, I met my partner on Hinge, so who am I to say that dating apps are the enemy? I've had great success on that aspect, but I've also met a ton of terrible people on there. I think what we have to look at is, what are the reasons that people don't want to try dating online?
What I hear normally, I'm curious what you hear in your community, is, I hate this, it makes me uncomfortable, I don't like it. And my response to them is, then do it. Because stop trying to avoid things that make us uncomfortable. It's okay that you don't like how you feel, but then we have to look and say, is that because I have expectations on this?
Am I putting way too high of an expectation on a dating app? Is my life revolving around if someone chooses me off this app? It's just another modality of meeting people because here's the other side of the coin. Okay, fine. You want to meet someone in person, right? So are you cool with rejection? Are you cool with someone saying to your face, no, thank you?
Are you cool with a girl saying, I have a boyfriend and walking off? Are you going to go up and talk to people? And if your answer is no, well, then the apps are there to help you. So that's why I think there is a positive and negative with every regard. I see it as you need to be a better buyer. I'm not going to blame the apps because they're shitty people.
That's not the app's fault that I went on a date with someone. That's not great because I didn't vet this person enough. So we can only blame the apps. Of course, listen, are they there to make money? The casino always wins. But that's also me. I do have agency and control on how I interact with this piece of technology.
Okay, I wanna go deep on this. I'm in this game right now, you know? I'm in the game. So I was with somebody for 10 years and I missed the whole online dating thing. And so when I got into online dating, I didn't even know how to swipe right, left. I didn't know what I was doing. And at first it was really exciting and now it's become like I'm burnt out from it.
So like my experience when I first started versus being on the apps for a while has changed very drastically. Right now, when I go on the apps, sometimes I feel like it's so vain. I'm like, oh, this guy's not smiling. His teeth are probably busted. Next, you know, oh, this guy is 5'9". I can only do 5'10 and higher. Next, you know? And so I'm just so ruthless.
And I feel like in person, if somebody 5'9 came up to me and he was cute and great and successful, I'd give him a chance. But because it's the app, I'm like, oh, you know, I'd rather have 5'10", right? So talk to us about that. How can we get out of this situation vanity cycle that we're in on the apps where it's just a looks contest and checking all these criteria that really don't matter. Okay.
I'm 5'8", so I'm a heightist. I'm the same. My partner's 6'5". So to me, I'm like, I think we're allowed to have some aspects of, like my partner, he says, he's like, I can't date a girl shorter than 5'8", because he's like, and then it feels very uncomfortable. My back hurts. I feel like it's my child. I don't really like that. So I think there is a level of like an 80-20 rule.
What's 80% that you need? So if you're saying, hey, height is really important. I'm 5'8". I wear heels all the time. I don't like my partner being shorter. You're allowed to have a need. You're allowed to say that's something that's important to me. But that's where we have to look and like to your point,
Am I being so rigid and so everything's giving me an ick that I'm almost pushing people away, right? And so what I would look at is what I personally did was I needed to find whether I was going to say no to someone or yes to someone, two to three reasons as to why I would say yes or no. So if I'm swiping left, if I'm looking and going, I don't like their height,
But if that's it, I'll go, okay, that's not enough of a reason. Fine, I'll give this person a try. But if I say, oh, vice versa, ooh, I want to match with this person. They're 6'4". Is there any other reason I want to match with them? No, their prompts are stupid. Their photos look really lame. Okay, so then what am I matching with this person for?
And I think what it comes to is that self-awareness of what is it that's a non-negotiable for me? Fine, you want to have height as a non-negotiable, I'll give it to you. You want to have hair color, right? You're allowed to have things that make you feel turned on by somebody. But we want to look at and say, am I super rigid? Is there no flexibility on this?
I've dated guys that are 5'8", and they're fantastic. There were other reasons it didn't work out. And so I think when it comes to apps, it's natural that it's going to be. The average person makes their decision within four seconds of an app. You have all but seconds to decide if you want to see somebody. But I'd argue to say similar in person, right? I've dated in New York where I'd go to a bar.
If I look and go, oh, I'm not attracted, I walk off. If this guy tries to talk to me, no, thank you. I don't want it. So I think there is an element of reality that, yes, of course, are there vibe checks? Like my partner's not my type. Not that he's not attractive. He's just not the same guy I always went for. That's why I chose him because I said, oh, what am I saying no to?
I said, oh, just because he's not my type, that's not enough of a reason for me to say no to this person. So I matched with him. And like, here's the thing. If you're unsure, do a FaceTime vibe check, right? If you're like, oh, he's a little short, but maybe he has a great personality, I'll do a FaceTime with him before I go out with him.
You can bucketize people into, I'll do FaceTimes with these people, but I'll go out with these people. What we want to look at is, am I saying no to people because I'm being rigid or am I saying no to people because they genuinely don't align with what it is that I feel like I want or need?
I think that makes a lot of sense, but I think I'm in a different situation. I'm only five foot. Right. And I but all the past guys that I've dated are six, three, six foot over six foot tall. And so I feel like it's actually ridiculous for me to have some sort of height requirement. So in general, I guess, does that just mean I'm too picky? Like, what are your thoughts about that?
What I would say is we would also start with a little bit of compassion of there's nothing wrong with me that I like these tall men, but I would be curious then to ask you, what does their height represent to you? Is it that you feel safe and secure with somebody? This is creepy, but is your dad tall? Like my dad's 6'3", so I always thought that a bigger man was something I felt more attracted to.
What does the height represent, right? Is it security, safety? We have to look at that as what am I putting on the height as what does that mean to me? For me personally, it's because I wear heels. I don't want to be shorter than my partner all the time. And it made me feel better knowing that I have a bigger person than me. That was more attractive to me personally. But that's a me thing.
So I'm curious, Hala, for you, when you hear that,
I mean, my dad wasn't really tall. I think it has to do with my first boyfriends were all very tall. I'm just used to it. And I sort of have like Napoleon syndrome where with heels on 5'4", 5'5", but I'm a very outgoing person. I feel 5'9", 5'10". And when I'm with somebody, even my girlfriends that are tall, I feel just as tall as them. Like I don't feel shorter than them.
So I think it's just a little bit of Napoleon syndrome going on.
Here's the thing, the beauty of the awareness that you have of, okay, that's something that I do. That way, when you're on the apps, if you're going to say no to someone and you're like, wait, Hala, you're only doing this because he's short. He's really attractive. He's cool. I like a lot about him.
That is how you can start to make different choices for yourself and say, okay, me chasing the guys that are above six feet hasn't gone anywhere. Let me give this a try. If it works, cool. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. That's that flexibility that we start to incorporate of, I'm allowed to say I want someone taller than me, but since I'm five feet, most people are going to be.
That's, I think, where we could start to look and say, great, let me try a new experience. Let's try matching with someone that's 5'9 and see how you feel when you go out with them. Is it their height that bothers you or are there 40 other things about them you don't like?
What do you think about writing a list about everything that you want in a person and ranking people based on that? Because that's something that I've done as I've been dating.
Not a fan of lists because then that's rigidity. What I would suggest, because a lot of people, my brother's whole thing has always been burn your fucking checklist. He's like, it's not getting you anywhere. What I would suggest is focus on how do I want to feel when I'm with this person? For instance, I want to feel seen, heard, and understood. What's that going to mean, right?
If I want to feel that with someone, wow, that feels so secure. So what I'm looking for is someone that's compassionate because for me to feel seen, heard, and understood, I need compassion and empathy. I need someone that loves acts of service. So that's what I would look at is how I want to feel. Because you could meet someone and go, they check all my boxes, right?
They're tall, they're successful, they're fun. They do all of these things, but yet I'm not feeling it. Well, it could be I'm not feeling it because I'm so used to dysfunction, right? I am. That when I meet someone that's secure, oh, it feels off. So they check all the boxes, but I want to look at how do I want to feel with this person?
Because you could meet someone that doesn't check those boxes and go, holy shit, I feel amazing with this person. That's what I want to look at and focus on is I want to feel reciprocated. I want to feel consistency. I want to feel that this person prioritizes me in their life, right? Or that dating is a priority.
That I think is something more concrete versus I want all of these boxes that maybe somebody doesn't have them doesn't mean they're not still a great match for you.
As I've been dating, you know, I've got a big company. I have 60 employees. It's so much time to like go through all these matches, to have all these conversations, to then go on a first date and maybe a second date. How do we prioritize our time better? How do you suggest that we manage time? going through our matches?
How do you suggest that we spend time getting to know people and just making sure that we're not wasting our time? Because sometimes I'm on a first date and in the first 20 minutes, I'm like, why the hell did I do this? Like I knew in my gut, I shouldn't have come on this date, you know, and I regret it. So talk to us about that.
Well, that right there, what you just said is beautiful. My God, right? It's listening to that softer voice. So for me, when I was running software, I was running a million-dollar business alone. So as you can imagine, I was swamped, right? What I would do personally is I had very strict boundaries around my time.
Okay, I allow myself once a week to go out on a date, right, or once or twice a week. I have a couple of times because the point is dating is an addition to your life. It's not instead of. So we do need to open up space. It can't be every week where you're like, well, I have my girlfriends on Monday. I have a work meeting Tuesday. Wednesday's my bingo night. Sorry, I don't have time.
It's like, you don't have time to date, right? We have to be open and receptive to that. But at that same token, we have to also be cognizant of just that. What is my gut telling me? What is my reasoning for going out with this person? If you're saying, listen, I haven't gone out on a date. I just want to get dressed up and go out. Go have fun.
But for you, I would say, because you're so swamped, coffee dates, Coffee dates are huge for me. I love a coffee date because what you could say is, hey, I'm about to go run an errand. Why don't you come meet me for 25 minutes? Let's see if we have something here. If we do, then we could go to dinner, right?
That's you respecting your time and boundaries and saying, I just want to do a quick vibe check. FaceTime vibe check, right? Let's have a conversation on FaceTime. Wow, you're funny. Okay, cool. I'd like to meet you. Versus, oh, no, thank you. I'm not into this. Because at the end of the day, you set the boundaries, right? You prioritize how often you spend on work.
You prioritize how your friendships are. It's just another priority. And if you're telling me, well, I don't prioritize that, it's like, well, then there you go. You're not ready for a relationship. It's okay.
Now, I feel like coffee dates aren't sexy. I feel like it's just not sexy. And I just feel like I don't think that's a great way to kick off a romantic relationship.
Which is fine. Listen, you're allowed to believe anything you want. I will never try to dissuade you. But what I would say is then you're chasing a feeling. You want, I wanted to feel sexy. I wanted to feel this. But the reality is that is going to fade. That's not going to last forever.
So what we want to see is if I just show up in a workout outfit looking like this and you and I have a great fucking conversation over coffee, that is more important than I got all dressed up. He took me to this amazing dinner, but then I never heard from him again. because it's performative, right? And so that's why I would say, do what feels comfortable for you.
But for me personally, that was me respecting my time. Hey, I'm going to go walk the dog. Why don't you join me? Because if I can't just go on a walk with you and have a good conversation, then what relationship are you and I going to build? Because if I'm focused on, well, I want to feel the spark and I want to feel this excitement, that's the first thing that's going to go.
And then all of a sudden we wonder why people go, but in my relationship, I'm bored. which, Hala, I say this with love, but given what you shared about earlier, that high and low, that's, I think, why, is because you want to feel that excitement so that it'll keep going, but then you notice how eventually it's going to come down.
And so we want to find a baseline, something that feels just calm and secure. The reason I bring up coffee dates is because of the timing thing. If you were like, oh, I'm not running a business, I got plenty of time. I got all these nights I could go out to dinner. Great, do what feels comfortable.
But then we hear the, well, I got ready and I did my makeup and my hair and this person never called me back. It's like, because no one owes you anything. And so that's me respecting my time and my boundaries saying, you don't owe me anything and I don't owe you anything. Let's meet at Erewhon for 30 minutes. Let's have a quick jive. If we get it, great. I'd love to go to dinner with you.
And if not, that's cool too.
Have a good day. So I made up a rule for myself because I'm really busy and I found myself going on like four dates in a week and it just felt really not great. And I was getting burnt out. And so I was like, okay, I have a new rule. First dates, I'll only do on Fridays or Saturdays. which means that they have to want to go out on a Friday and Saturday and reserve those days for me.
And same with me. And it helps me process whether I actually really want to go on this first date or not, that I'm willing to give up a Friday or Saturday. And then second, third dates can be during the week and more casual and stuff like that. Do you feel like that's a good idea?
I think if that helps you feel like you can manage your schedule, sure. I think there's also an element of reality. I'm sure that you're not so rigid that if you met someone that you really liked and they're like, hey, I'm so sorry, I can't do Friday. Could you do Thursday? You're like, okay, fine. I can make an exception, right? Like, especially if there's somebody really great.
That's, I think, it is really just about feeling in control of your dating life. And that's okay if you're like, hey, I do my first dates on a Friday or Saturday. That way I don't have to worry about work. Absolutely. That's a boundary that you're setting. The other alternative could be I also leave a Tuesday at 6 o'clock just for me because I don't do late nights. For me, like, I'm up at 5 a.m.
every morning. I can't be out. I don't drink alcohol. I don't want to do that whole thing. So I'm going to do an earlier date. But it's a really great way to see because here's the beauty about what I like about what you're doing is you're setting a boundary saying, hey, I can only go out Friday. Somebody that respects you will say, cool, let me make it happen. Or, hey, Hala, I'm so sorry.
Could I do Thursday? Right. You can have a conversation. Versus if you say that and they're like, wow, high maintenance, no thank you, goodbye, right? You get to see when I scratch the surface a little bit and I say no to you, how does that person show up?
So something else you alluded to was not really paying so much attention to the spark. A lot of people, they're like, okay, I need to feel a spark or this is not really it. And I'm definitely one of those people.
I feel like all my relationships, it's either like we meet and then we're like together for years, like, but after the first date, you know, or it's like we meet, I don't feel a spark and I'm out. So talk to me about sparks and how we should think about them.
Totally. Okay. So my question back would be, and how has that worked?
Yeah, not great.
So scientifically, right? This isn't me just making shit up. This is an actual study. If you Google, anybody that wants to Google the spark by Harvard, that's it. It'd come up to 2015.
My friend, Scott, he is a doctor, like a psychologist, and he calls them the trauma tingles because scientifically what they've seen is the spark is just your nervous system giving blood to your, I call them the phalanges, but to your hands and your feet so that you could run. Because there's something that your body is recognizing that feels familiar.
So you felt the spark with these guys and you look back and you're like, yeah, they were all abusive or whatever, not abusive, but controlling or this or that, right? Whatever, insert this word. Because what ends up happening is, let me ask you this, the spark, right? You feel that. If you weren't attracted to that person, you'd probably be like, I need to get out of here. Something feels off.
I feel this intensity. I'm dysregulated. I don't feel safe here. The problem is we see someone attractive and go, oh, Oh my God, it's a sign. What we want to look at is we want your nervous system to feel regulated. We want your nervous system to feel safe with this person. And that means that the spark isn't going to be present. That doesn't mean you can't have attraction.
When I first met my partner, I felt nothing. No spark, nothing. And I just thought, he's a nice guy. I'll keep getting to know him. And we went on a hike. We went for like three hours and it was like this beautiful hike in this neighborhood, whatever, whatever. And then after he said, listen, I'd love to take you to dinner if you're open to it. If not, totally understand. We could part ways.
And I said, you know what? Let me give him a try. He didn't do anything wrong. He's adorable. I'm just not feeling it. And sure enough, we went back to his house to drop off the dog. We both got changed and we walked out. I was like, oh, he's way cuter than I like thought he was. And he like came and kissed me. And all of a sudden I like felt it. I was like, oh, I like this.
And we ended up hooking up. And fast forward, here we are. We went to dinner after. I never have felt the spark with him because my nervous system has always felt very safe with him because he's not inconsistent. He's not doing any of those things. He's being very upfront, consistent, safe, reciprocal. He communicates. And that's different for me. And the thing is, the spark often is familiarity.
Notice how you went after all these men. And what did you say earlier? They reminded me of my dad. Because that's what the spark leads us to is that people that feel familiar that are often end up usually hurting us because we're chasing a feeling. And when that feeling fades, what do you have left?
We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. I wanna talk about trends for a bit. And ghosting is something that's really interesting, something that happens a lot. And I think it's really the advent of online dating because when I first got into online dating, I didn't understand the ghosting thing.
You know, I'd message somebody, they wouldn't message me back, not very often, but I'd be like, this is so weird. Why are people like this? And then now I do the same thing. I do it all the time. I'm ghosting everyone all the time. So talk to us about why you think ghosting is a thing and do you feel it is wrong to ghost people, even in the early stages?
I just did a video recently of like, instead of ghosting, say this, went mega viral, like 11 million. I got thousands of comments polarizing. One being like, yes, thank you. This is it, maturity. Yes, please be honest. And then the other side of the internet, I'd rather get ghosted. Ghosting's easier. I don't owe anybody anything, right? So we look at the emotional maturity, but...
Off the bat, let's talk about what ghosting is. By definition, ghosting means an abrupt ending in a relationship. That's the key word here. So that means we have had to build some kind of rapport. To me, the I haven't answered on an app, that's not ghosting to me. You don't know who this person is. You have never met this person. You don't owe these people anything.
And that to me means expectations, right? If I say, well, what the hell? This person ghosted me on an app. It's like, why are you expecting some stranger on the internet to owe you anything?
Mm-hmm.
They might not even be real, right? Catfishing is so huge. They're bots, right? And also there's a reality that I don't know who you are. I've talked to you for a day. I don't owe you anything. Maybe you said something that was a huge turnoff and I was just like, I'm good, I'm out, right?
And so then what I see the people that are like, I can't believe they ghosted and they message a thousand times. It's like, that's probably why this person said, no, thank you. I'm kind of the same. Listen, let's say you have a first date. No one texts each other after. That's not ghosting. No one said anything. You move on with your life. You don't owe anyone anything.
To me, where the ghosting starts to play in is you've spent time with this person, right? You've spent time with this person and they're texting you like, hey, I'd love to see you again. You just never hear back. You could have just said that you're not interested, right? But I think you have to have a rapport that's built before you can say this person ghosted me.
Because we have to remember too, ghosting, what does it do to our psyche? If I'm saying everyone ghosts me, that means I'm not going to trust people. I'm going to start to feel, oh, I don't believe, right? Then I have a different energy versus they didn't answer. Oh, well, thanks for doing me the favor. I didn't waste any more of my time.
And so for those of us who have been dating and feel burnt out from it all, what advice do you have for us? What should we be doing in terms of our mindset or our thoughts to try to get out of being burnt out? A couple of things.
One, take a break. You have every right to say, I don't want a date right now. I need to take a minute. I'm exhausted, right? Take some time. But on top of that, so then we start to go in and say, let's start to talk about what's causing the burnout. Is it that I say I'm going on a thousand dates and I'm not getting second dates?
Okay, I need to become a better buyer then because I'm going on way too many first dates and not really vetting these people well. we kind of have to understand where the burnout really lies. So if it's that, if it's I'm just tired of the apps and feeling disappointed, okay, you know what? Let me use them passively.
Let me see who tries to match with me, and then I will decide if I want to match with them. That way, I don't feel like I'm being rejected as hard. That's where I kind of go and say, start to get curious about what's the narrative that's being associated with the burnout. Is it that I don't feel like anyone's ever gonna like me? Nobody, oh God, everybody good is taken.
Oh, okay, I have black and white thinking, right? There's no facts to back up that every good person is taken. There's a lot of good people getting divorced, right? There's a lot of good people breaking up too. There's an evolution, there's a cycle. So we have to look and say, am I being rigid?
Am I having black and white thinking that's causing me to reaffirm my core beliefs that there's something wrong with me? oh, okay, maybe that's why I'm feeling burnt out. I'm being so hard on myself. I'm not having any compassion. Or is it because, like I said, you're not being a better buyer. You're going out with anybody that gives you the time of day. Oh, you know what?
I need to have better boundaries. This doesn't work for me. Is it because I'm overgiving, right? I meet somebody on one date and I'm ready, I'm buying them gifts and I'm trying to do everything to get them to like me. I need to pull it back. That's exhausting. I'm not having reciprocity.
So I think it's about just understanding where we fall on that, getting curious with ourselves, and then understanding what are boundaries and parameters I can put so that I feel comfortable. Coffee dates or one date a week, right?
Those are beautiful boundaries for yourself to say, I'm going to protect my mental health, but I'm also still going to remain open and receptive because I do want a relationship.
I think a lot of people who are single listening to this show are in their 30s, in their 40s, and they have specific goals, family goals. When do you think is the right time to bring up those types of topics? First date.
First date. Because here's the reality. I'm not saying first date, you have to start talking about, okay, I'm going to have six children. We're going to have a house in the cottage in the woods and we're going to... No, no, no, no. But if I'm going on a date with you and I know, okay, I'm 34, right? Me personally, I'm 34. If I were dating right now, I don't want children.
So to me, it's not an issue. But if I wanted children, I'd go... okay, Zohar, you got like two, three more years before this becomes geriatric, or it already is, before it becomes more dangerous for your health. So that means on a first date, the first thing I'm going to say is, hey, I'm super intentional. I want marriage and family. Does that align with you? Because if the guy goes, no, I'm good.
I don't want any more children. Great. I don't need to hang out with you again. No, thank you. Right? It's not about having a checklist that you're like, oh, perfect. You align with that. It's about getting curious with somebody. I talked to my partner about how'd your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? I wanted to see if he took accountability.
I wanted to see if he was going to blame his ex. Oh, my ex was crazy. Was she? Were they? They were crazy, huh? Tell me more. That's an interesting. I want to know, what are your political views? Are you super rigid on that? Because if I'm conservative, you're a liberal or vice versa, we're only going to have fights. This is not going to work.
That's the type of shit because we want to understand that your time is valuable. Let me ask you a question. If you had a client come to you, you're going to ask the hard questions off the bat, right? Hey, what's your budget? How much do you have, right? Or whatever, like all of the variables because you don't want to waste your time. It's the same with dating.
It makes total sense. And I love the questions that you brought up to just understand what their last relationships were like. And is there any other key questions that we should ask to check compatibility?
The reason I like how did your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? We're not talking about your ex. So it's not about saying, oh, well, my ex was all of these things. Okay, I didn't ask you about them. I asked you how it ended and what did you learn about yourself? So that right there is a great way to see, do they take accountability? Are they over their ex?
Have they moved on? Do they process? How do they speak about them? Another question I love to ask is, how do you normally handle disagreements or arguments? Are you the type that likes to talk or are you somebody that needs space, right? That'll give me an understanding of how do they handle conflict and resolution. Where do you see yourself in five years?
In a perfect world, how would you like this to play out, right? Just to understand if they're like, oh, I'm living here and I'm doing this. And you're like, oh, I don't want to do that. I want to live in the country with 10 kids. Like this doesn't align with me. Just asking things that are important to you. Like, what matters to me is I want to see how emotionally available you are.
I want to see how emotionally intelligent you are. I'm not going to talk about my family probably on the first date because I don't think it's appropriate to trauma dump. So I'm not going to ask you besides anything of like, so tell me about your relationship with your parents. Are you guys close? And if someone says, no, not really. Okay, cool.
Well, hey, I'd love to learn more about that as I get to know you further.
Yeah, and I know that you have green flags and red flags that you look for in a partner. Could you break that down for us?
When we look at red flags, all red flags are is a pattern of behavior that could indicate turmoil in a relationship. We hear this all the time. Oh, that's a red flag. And you're like, what's a red flag about it? How is that an indication that there's a problem in the relationship? What's a red flag? Someone dismissing me? Someone discrediting me? A red flag, all my exes are crazy.
Oh, you don't take accountability. Got it. Right? Those are red flags. They're like somebody that their words and actions aren't aligning. Look, those are true red flags. Then we go onto the green flags. Green flags could be something so minute as they said they were gonna call and they called. They took me to their favorite restaurant and introduced me to the staff.
That's a great, wow, they are trying to bring me part of their life. We have to look at green flags are what are things that make me say, hey, this feels safe, secure, and good to me. They're consistent. Consistency means their words and actions align. They're reliable. When they say they're going to do something, they do it, or they communicate that they can't do it.
A green flag that often people is actually a red flag is like when people say, oh, well, they text me every day. That's not actually good. I don't want someone that's constantly texting me. Good morning. How are you? I don't know you, dude. I spent two hours with you. Why are you saying good morning to me? Who are you?
That's where we have to start to look and differentiate because green flags, I like to look at it as a glimmer to your nervous system. What that means is it's, yay, this makes me feel good and safe versus a red flag is more of a trigger to your nervous system. Ooh, I don't like that. That doesn't make me feel safe. This isn't a good look.
That's what we want to look at is when someone tells you something or acts, how does it make you feel? That's how you'll be able to differentiate between, is this a red flag for me or a green flag?
How important do you think physical or sexual chemistry is related to green flags, red flags?
I think it depends on how that fits into your life. I know people that are asexual. So to them, they're like, that doesn't bother me. And it's like, okay, so sex is not a big deal. Whereas for me, I slept with my partner on the first date because it is huge for me. I need that intimacy in my relationship. So I think, listen, we've all, not all of us, but a lot of us have seen Love is Blind.
I think we know and acknowledge that it takes more than just a great personality for us to feel a connection. There is also, because for me, if I don't have the physical intimacy, that means that this is my roommate, right? You're just a friend of mine. That's what differentiates. But to other people, that works. So, hey, if that works for you, great. That's fine.
But we also have to look because now, I don't know if you've heard this too, Hala, there's all these different like demisexual, sapiosexual, all these new things. I get turned on by your mind. I get turned on by this. There's going to be something for everybody. So I think it's about just being true to yourself. If physicality is important, don't kid yourself.
You don't need to do charity work and date someone because they're nice to you, but you don't even want them to touch you.
I love that. I think that's really great advice. So a couple more terms. that are like hot right now, negging. Everybody's talking about negging. I don't really understand what it means, so tell me what it means.
Did you remember the book, The Game? No. Okay, so yeah, this was a while ago, but it was a guy, I'm a little fuzzy on it, but it was this guy, he wrote a book, and essentially it's teaching men how to get a woman to be obsessed with you. And so he started hanging out with all these players and learning their tools. And then a lot of men now take that book as like gospel. Negging is another part.
So, negging is essentially putting you down. It's like a backhanded compliment. So, they're putting you down to make you question yourself. Negging, for example, could be, oh, wow, yeah, you actually do look good in white. And you're like... Thank you, right?
It's like, it's a bit of a, and then it makes you feel a little insecure because you're like, oh, they're putting me down, but they're complimenting me. What that is, is it's giving the other person the control, right? Then they start to break you down as a person. Then you're like, oh, I want your validation. So do you not like white on me? Because you said, oh, wow, I actually look good in it.
Do I not normally? It starts to make you question your own reality and your own. Negging is very common in narcissists a lot, but it doesn't have to be somebody who is a narcissist. Talk about an overused term. Negging could be someone who's insecure, who thinks if I put her down and give her a backhanded compliment, she's going to want me even more. And it's just not fun. This is not good shit.
Please don't neg people. But it's just a manipulation tactic so that you come out where somebody wants you even more.
I know. And I feel like as women, especially once we get a little bit older and wiser, I was in a situation like that where somebody was putting me down and I was like, I'm not going to just stay in this, you know, and I was out very quickly. So I think you start to realize it really quickly if you're self-aware.
Exactly. If you are wildly insecure, oh, that's just going to feel probably like your parents, right? Like, oh, you're putting me down again. Yeah, because there's something wrong with me. But like you said, when you've really done the work, you've come home to yourself and you're like, no, I'm pretty awesome. I don't know what you're talking about.
That's the adult version, letting that little you know, like, I'm not going to let anyone talk to you like this ever again. You don't deserve this. It's a beautiful act of self-love.
So another trend that I see bubbling up is this micro-flirting trend. What is micro-flirting?
It's all those little like sending an emoji on a story, right? Like remember back on Facebook when you could poke people? Micro-flirting is not being as outward about it. And I think, listen, here's my thing. I'm a very blunt, direct, go for it type of person. So to me, I see micro-flirting as like, It's a soft blow of rejection. Oh, I don't want to get rejected. So let me micro flirt.
And if they don't give me a sign, then I don't have to get rejected. If that works for you, fine. But to me, it's like, I'm either going to do it or I'm not. My mama always used to say, she's like, you're not half pregnant. You either are or you're not. So they call it like tapping on the window on Insta when someone likes all your story, all of your photos. And you're like, okay, I'm pretty sure.
They're not being outward because they don't want to be rejected. They're giving just enough to see if you reciprocate before they go any further.
This reminds me of there was some guy from high school that literally likes every single one of my stories. And then one day I was like, well, are you going to ask me out on a date or what? You know, you're just going to keep liking every story for two years.
And look at how you receiving that. You're like, I'd love for you to just ask me out. Do it. But his fear of getting rejected is causing him to micro flirt. And you're like, I don't want this. I want someone that's going to come and ask me out.
Exactly. Exactly. Ended up being like a turnoff kind of. Have you heard of open hearted masculinity? Oh, God. Okay.
Let's talk about this. The feminine masculine. Now, does it have a place? Yeah. Listen, there are feminine qualities. There's masculine. That's a polarity, right? But this open-hearted masculine, it's like, oh, let me guess. You're just saying, be vulnerable and open while still being manly. And it's like...
No, okay, so then what I would say is who is determining what's masculine and feminine, right? To some people, they'd say masculine men don't be vulnerable, but to me, I find that very sexy and masculine. I think that's really beautiful that you're in touch with yourself. So that's my issue with these feminine masculine conversations. It's the same with the high value stuff.
It's like, who are you to determine my value because I wanna take you to coffee and not dinner? I'm suddenly, I don't have any worth. masculinity and femininity to me come into safety. Let's think about this. I can be feminine. And what is really feminine is the receiving, right? I can disarm. I can feel soft. I can be in my receiving. How am I going to receive if I don't feel safe?
I have to feel safe. And then my partner, he will protect me and be that masculine figure when he feels safe in order to do so. Otherwise, he's going to be like, I don't want to. Why would I protect you? You're not somebody that's for me. So I look at it less as I need to be masculine and feminine and more that I want to feel safe so that I can receive and disarm.
But then I can also step in and protect when I need to. That's how I would look at it, because open hearted masculinity, I think, is just trying to tell people it's like saying men wear pink, right? Like it's OK to have an open heart and be vulnerable and transparent and honest and open. You're still a man and masculine if you do that.
Yeah, and I think to your point, when you were talking about spectrums with attachment styles, I think masculine and feminine is a spectrum. So for example, I'm very masculine in my business, but I'm really feminine in my relationships and I don't wanna be masculine at all if I feel like it's the right person.
I'm the same. I'm very masculine. And what does that mean? It's more outwards, right? I'm more go-getter. I'm going to protect and I'm going to serve and I'm going to be the mama bear, right? And it's like, but that's a balance, right? We do have feminine and masculine. Every person has that polarity. And I'm the same in my relationship. I just want to disarm.
I want to feel soft and taken care of and loved. That's because we find a balance. And then my partner works for my company. And so in careers, yeah, he's a little more feminine. He has to back down. And I'm the one that's taking reins. I'm the owner. But in our relationship, he gets to come in and be the masculine.
The funny thing is, people always equate masculine to, oh, the woman cooks and cleans. My partner cooks. He cleans. He takes care of the household. He does all of that. But he's protecting me. He's taking care of me. And I am... The breadwinner, right? I'm taking care of our salaries. I'm making sure. But it works for us. What we want to look at is what works for you, right?
If you want a more traditional life, great. That comes with a price. If I don't, great. That comes with a price. What works for you?
I see more and more of this dynamic nowadays as women are making more money that these gender roles are switching. And I think that we're in this transitional period where it's still a little bit embarrassing in society or people feel like ashamed of it. What advice do you have for people? Because I think there's a lot more single, successful women out there because of this.
What is your advice to those women and men that are finding themselves dating women who make more money than them? How can we just be happier?
I think what we have to look at here is where's the insecurity lie, right? Because for me, I totally understand. It felt like I was this badass boss babe. And you're like, but why can't I find a partner that wants that? And it all just meant was I just needed to find someone that was secure with a strong woman, right? My partner was raised by very strong women.
I've met them all and they are incredible powerhouses. So meeting me was like, oh my God, this is what I've been looking for. And so I think what it is, it's about owning and acknowledging, yeah, Hala, you're a badass. You are not only gorgeous, not only smart, not only successful, you're going to be very intimidating to a lot of people.
But that doesn't mean that you need to water yourself down in order to have someone. That means that you stand in your confidence so that you can have a man that stands in his. I like to look at it as my partner is the frame and I'm the picture. We both can't be the center of attention. We both can't be the painting.
So I get to be this fun, bright, woo, and he's the structure that keeps me in place. Well, I need that balance. And I need, as a strong business owner, I need the support system. That doesn't mean I have to date a fellow business owner because they might be needing those same things. But I would say really embrace the parts of yourself that make you who you are.
That's what makes you successful and cool is the fact that you are a go-getter. And there are going to be people out there that are going to love that. Don't let someone else's insecurities water you down.
Last question to you. Let's say we're in a relationship. What do you feel is important for a sustainable, long-lasting relationship? What do you think people should be doing?
Communication, number one, always and forever. A relationship is one giant conversation, right? You have to have those hard talks. Anytime you say, oh, I don't want to say something, it's going to push them away, you've already lost the relationship. That's number one.
If you have, my favorite therapist, she's a marriage and family therapist, her name is Julie Menino, and her stuff is called The Secure Relationship. And We were talking and she said, the one thing to look out for outside of the communication is two participants, two people, I don't care who they are, in this relationship that say, no matter what, we will make it work. Right?
Of course, within reason, obviously. But two people, if you have two people that are driven to become better versions of themselves, like when my partner and I have an issue, anytime there's an issue, the first thing I'll say is, hey, to avoid resentment, can I share something with you? He knows when I say that, that it's time. Okay, I'm listening. What's going on? And same with him.
That way, if I say something, he'll go, okay. Thank you for letting me know. I had no idea I impacted you on that. I'm going to talk to my therapist about steps that I can take so that I can make you feel more supported. That way I communicate and then I let my partner do what they need to do. But you know what the common denominator is?
Both of us are committed to making this work within our power. I can't do the work for him and he can't do it for me. But as long as you're two people that have respect, that listen, that communicate, then The sky is the fucking limit. You will go through all the hard times as long as you remember that you're a team. Work through your triggers. Your partner's going to trigger you. That's okay.
It doesn't mean that everything has to be perfect. Conflict is part of it. The repair is what we want to look at.
Sabrina, this was such an insightful conversation, a very unique conversation for our show that I think our listeners are going to really enjoy. So I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests. Don't worry about today's topic. This is just answering from your heart. What is one actionable thing our young and profiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?
Start noticing the sensations in your body. And the reason I say that is because when you start to understand yourself, you are a goddamn superpower. It is incredible that when you understand, wait a minute, oh, whoa, this is a sensation in my body. I can go regulate this. You will be more profitable the next day because you'll make decisions from a clearer head.
You'll make decisions from a more empowered space and you're making decisions for your highest good, not out of anxiety or fear.
And what would you say is your secret to profiting in life? And this can go beyond business.
My secret to profiting in life truly is the unapologetic aspect that I am myself and I'm not going to change. Because if I don't stand for something, I fall for everything. And so authentically accepting myself. Does she curse a lot? Yep. Do I talk a lot? You bet your ass I do. Do I have all of these qualities? Absolutely. but that's who I am. That's what makes me so unique and special.
And I think embracing those aspects of yourself and not being ashamed, not dismissing yourself, not discrediting yourself is truly what makes me feel the most authentic and powerful in my own life.
And Sabrina, where can everybody learn more about you and everything you do?
SabrinaZohar.com is my website or Sabrina.Zohar on TikTok or Instagram or The Sabrina Zohar Show. If you guys want to learn more about like dating, anxiety, and doing the work to heal, I got you.
Amazing. We'll stick all those links in the show notes. Sabrina, what an awesome conversation. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Young Improfiters, it can be so challenging to balance being an entrepreneur with having a healthy dating life or relationship. Like Sabrina said, so many of us have that all or nothing mentality.
And so often our personal lives suffer as we pursue our work lives 24-7. Still, there's plenty of hope for us yet. We can strive to find the right balance and to better understand ourselves, our needs, our attachment styles, and the boundaries we need to set. And hopefully we will find a partner who can work within those same parameters.
We just need to be as flexible and as understanding as we can. And most of all, make sure that we constantly communicate. Sabrina also helped me understand how I can better navigate the crazy world of online dating, which I've only recently been starting to experience. Online dating gets a bad rap today, but meeting people in person back in the day was no picnic either.
Like Sabrina said, a dating app is just a tool, and like the internet or any piece of technology, it's only as useful as you make it. We all have agency and control and we can learn to be better buyers when it comes to the dating market.
In fact, we entrepreneurs should be a lot better at vetting prospects, weighing pros and cons and making informed decisions than the average person on a dating app. So be smart about it, just like you would if you were hiring somebody for your company.
Save yourself some time by doing some early compatibility checks, whether that's a quick coffee date, a video call, or a direct question like, how did your last relationship end? And what did it teach you about yourself? Finally, be kind to yourself. Take a break from dating if you need to. Set boundaries that protect your own mental health. Don't be afraid to pivot or change course.
In dating, as in business, you can't ultimately control the outcome or if something will work out, but you can control the process and how you show up for it. Thanks so much for showing up here today and listening to this episode of Young and Profiting.
If you listened, learned, and profited from this conversation and think you know somebody who could use a little dating advice or encouragement, then send them a link to the show. Who knows? Maybe it will help them find a life partner.
And if you did enjoy this show and you learned something new and you feel like we're kind of in a relationship because you listen to me every single week, then take a couple of minutes to say thank you by dropping us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I really love to read my reviews every day. And honestly, nothing else makes me happier.
I check my reviews every day. It's like a dopamine hit when I get one. 50,000 listens, we get one review. So be that person, be that person for me. And if you want to follow me on social media, you can do so on Instagram at Yap with Hala or LinkedIn by typing in my name, it's Hala Taha. And if you prefer to watch your podcast as videos, you can find us on YouTube. All of our videos are up there.
You can also find me on Instagram at Yap with Hala or LinkedIn by searching my name, it's Hala Taha. And before we wrap, I of course have to say thank you to my rockstar podcast team. I mean, guys, I've got like the number one podcast team in the freaking country. I really do. We have an amazing podcast team, production team, podcast network. Oh my gosh.
I got to just shout everybody out right now. First of all, I want to shout out Paul. Congratulations on taking a more advanced role on the production team. You've been rocking it for years and years now. I really appreciate you. I wanna shout out Cordae for her promotion. She's moving off my podcast, but going to better places in the network. So shout out to you for doing incredible work.
I wanna shout out Sean for being an incredible researcher and copywriter. You make my life so much easier. You make me a better CEO because you give me back my time. I appreciate you so much. I want to shout out Greta for all her research support over the years. You've been doing an incredible job. I want to shout out Maxi for his audio production.
I want to shout out Raven for her video support and everything that she's doing. I want to shout out Jason, of course, Christina. Thank you guys so much. Love you guys. This is your host, Halataha, aka the podcast princess, signing off.