Trauma therapist (and survivor of marriage to a narcissist) Caroline Strawson joins us to discuss: how to know if someone’s really a narcissist; how to know if you’re more likely to get into a relationship with a narcissist (and avoid it); strategies for parallel parenting with a narcissist; how the brain and body respond to narcissists; and how to rebuild after ending a relationship with a narcissist. CW: Abusive relationships, self harm For more related episodes, check out: Episode 170 The Most Radical Way to Heal: Internal Family Systems with Dr. Becky Kennedy, Episode 169 Why We Love the Way We Love: Attachment Styles with Dr. Becky Kennedy, and Episode 142 Codependence: How to Stop Controlling Others with Melody Beattie About Caroline: Caroline Strawson is a Trauma Therapist and Coach specializing in helping others heal from the trauma and shame of narcissistic abuse. She hosts the Narcissistic Abuse & Trauma Recovery Podcast and is the #1 best selling author of Divorce Became My Superpower. Having been married to a covert narcissist herself, Caroline was in debt, lost her family home, and was at rock bottom with PTSD, depression, anxiety, and self-harm. Caroline integrates Internal Family Systems, Somatic Experiencing, Brainspotting and breath work with positive psychology, to help others move from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. TW: @cstrawson11 IG: @carolinestrawson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What does it mean to be a narcissist?
The problem being, though, with medicalising narcissistic personality disorders, a number of things. One, It's only five traits of nine that you are supposed to get the diagnosis. And actually, it's over 30. It isn't just this linear nine things that you would get if you were a narcissist. There are many because there's many different types of narcissists too.
The other problem with making it a diagnosis, and I see this online, you know, with a lot of my posts on Instagram. Are they diagnosed? Now, the problem is, and I'm sure we've all encountered narcissists, no narcissist will ever go, hey, do you think I'm a narcissist? I need to go and get a diagnosis.
That was my question. No, no. Are narcissists diagnosed secondhand? Is it an indirect diagnosis?
Yeah, it normally is. Have you been diagnosed with denial? Like, no, by definition, you are in denial.
And the problem being is that is one of the traits of a narcissist, zero ownership and projection all of the time. So they really, the only time where people actually do get a diagnosis is often if they're in a relationship and the other person says, we need to go to therapy, we need to fix this.
And they do it from a cognitive perspective, thinking they can probably triangulate with the therapist as such. And then they may end up with a diagnosis, but All the research, it's very, very rare. And this is what makes it such a divisive subject because we've medicalized it, because we've said, okay, they're not a narcissist unless they have a diagnosis.
But if you had flu, you wouldn't need to go to the doctor and get a diagnosis for that. And actually the term narcissist is really for the survivor to know that it's not their fault. And this is why I love internal family systems as well, because how I talk about narcissism is, Narcissists aren't born that way. They are created from childhood. So going back to some of your questions.
So they're created from childhood and they are actually some of the most wounded individuals out there. And what happens is they have this emotional wound. The narcissism is created in childhood. And if we look at IFS in this instance, IFS is based on we all have the essence of who we are, our true self. We have these childhood traumas that creates what we call exiles, these inner child wounds.
And as human beings, we're built for survival. So our protector parts will come up to diminish and minimize the pain of what our systems think would be the most pain to feel. Now, with a narcissist, their protector parts are things like gaslighting, manipulation, coercive control. So I tend to look at a narcissist as an individual who has gone through childhood trauma.
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Chapter 2: What are the traits of narcissistic personality disorder?
So you call it a supply. So a narcissist friend, they're like a... I mean, for lack of a better word, it's like a leech. It's like something that needs this thing.
I want you to actually tell us, what is a narcissistic friend? Because I can understand it easier in a relationship, but with a friendship, can you give me some characteristic traits that can help me understand?
Yeah. So some of the things would be, if you're in a friendship with a narcissist, you'll start to say to yourself, you feel like you're giving everything in the relationship and not getting something back. We also need to check in because really as friends, we shouldn't give to receive something either.
But there's an element of where you feel like all of the time you are giving in this relationship almost to the point of exhaustion and you're not getting anything back. They'll also, again, start to gossip a lot. So I call it a gossiping part. They'll start to talk about other people, try and separate people in the friendship groups as well, trying to isolate people. And
100%.
100%. You know, however they might say, you know, don't say anything or this. You know, so it's all Theodore. I mean, that's a bonding too.
Isn't that a bonding too? It's like, you trust me so much. that you're going to tell me this thing. Now we share this little secret thing, even though that person is sharing it with everybody. Absolutely.
And again, that feels good to a codependent because you think I'm special, you know, she's being like this with me and everything. So again, you think, great, I've got an amazing friend. We've got this amazing bond. I trust her. You know, some of the things with one of my friends was, you know, we've got children, similar ages and, um,
I asked her to look after my children after school one day because I had my clinic for the day. But I was paying her for that. So I set up, I would pay you for this. Yeah, I looked after her children probably five times as much in the week. Didn't take any money. It was fine. But I wanted that, obviously, because I'd got my clinic.
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