The Zach Lowe Show
Inside the Drawing Room, Lottery Reactions, and Heartbreak for Boston With Bill Simmons
Tue, 13 May 2025
Zach is in Chicago to give a first-hand account of last night’s NBA draft lottery, but first he’s joined by Bill Simmons to discuss the unfortunate injury to Jayson Tatum (0:46). Then, Zach gives a behind-the-scenes look at what went down in the drawing room (20:28) and what comes next for the top teams, before the two close with some final thoughts on where the playoffs stand (49:00). Host: Zach Lowe Guest: Bill Simmons Producers: Jesse Aron, Jonathan Frias, Brian Waters The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What is the impact of Jayson Tatum's injury on the Celtics' season and future?
Bill Simmons, I listened to a good chunk of your live reaction with Kyle Mann and Joe House last night, and then I had to tap out to watch the basketball games. We don't know yet. It's 10.30 Central Time, 11.30 Eastern Time. There's been no official word. It doesn't look good. It doesn't sound good. I fear the worst-case scenario, which not only would end this season, but
would probably torpedo next season. Obviously, it ends their repeat goals. I think that was a big motivator for them to break this no-repeat streak that will now continue, presumably, in the NBA. And raises a lot of questions about how would the Celtics, who were already looking at a financial crunch and whatever, handle... Something of a gap year?
I mean, are you even ready for these kind of discussions? This is obviously like JT is he plays every game. He's he is an Ironman. And last night, look, the Celtics were already down seven and kind of teetering when he got hurt. But he was having one of the greatest games of his career, pretty much on par with game six in Milwaukee to save their season in 2022.
Game 750, whatever, against Philly in a blowout. That's how good he was. And it's just What can you say? The guy plays every game. He plays hard. He plays both ends. He's a beloved player. If this is what it is, it really sucks. This sucks.
Yeah, that was the best two-way game I think I'd ever seen him play up until the point he got hurt. Yeah, I woke up at 5.30 this morning, checked the phone to see if there was any news. We still don't know, but I think we're like 99.9% sure it was a torn Achilles. That's definitely the vibes coming out. They lost the game before it happened. I mean, that's a whole separate conversation.
But the big picture Tatum thing to me, I was looking, like he had to be one of the three most durable stars of this century, right? LeBron, Giannis, and Tatum. And when you think about how he looked athletically and physically just yesterday, he was all over the place and really at the peak of his powers. Now the question with an Achilles is, You know, a lot of times it happens to older players.
I don't think Clay was ever really the same athletically.
Well, he had the double whammy of ACL plus Achilles.
Right. Boogie Cousins, center, never the same. Kobe happened way later in his career. We don't know with Kyrie yet, but you go down the line. Aaron Rodgers last year didn't look right, but they're catching it. You know, they're basically you punt on next season with him. you don't try to rush them back, I think for any reason.
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Chapter 2: How might the Celtics handle their financial and roster challenges post-injury?
But, you know, they have players that people are going to want if they're trying to win a title. The problem with some of these trades, though, is you still have to take back contracts to make the trades work, right? So there's only, I was, I ironically was looking at this a couple, a few days ago to figure out I was starting to do the prep for the summer.
There's a couple like Duncan Robinson type contracts where you can waive it before June 29th. Van Vliet has one now where you can waive him before you don't have to guarantee the contract before June 29th. And so you can basically trade it, trade for it and then dump it. But man, I just can't believe when you think where the Celtics were 10 days ago,
to where we were this morning, Googling Achilles injuries, Googling tax stuff. I had some dark Google searches today, Zach, including like Timberland boots and Achilles injuries. Oh God. That's how bad it got for me.
Yeah. Well, I still am emotionally scarred from Cole Anthony doing the dunk contest in Timberland Boots. He did one dunk in Timberland Boots, and I was like, that seems dangerous. I wouldn't want him to do that. So you mentioned all the guys, right? Jalen is Jalen. He's a franchise rock. He has not had a good series against New York. Did not have a good game last night. Awful. Awful, that's right.
The handle is rickety. Again, negative assist to turnover ratio. He's shooting 7 of 31 on threes, I think, for the series. 38% overall. But he's a... He's a foundational Celtic. Drew, with those three years left at his age, like, I don't even know what his trade value would be.
Porzingis on an expiring, coming off injuries, this virus mystery, and just, I mean, he's looked horrible this entire series for the most part. He cannot make a shot from two or three. And last night I'm watching the game and obviously Tatum gets injured and then you just sort of blank out the rest of the game.
But as the Celtics are teetering and the Knicks, the Knicks have been the tougher team in this series. Brunson has been the best player in the series. And Anobi made big shots last night. Kat sort of like. Bridges was the key second Knick last night. Bridges is like, I could hear you screaming, like, this is why you traded for Mikael Bridges, to run the offense when Brunson is on the bench.
Robinson played 25 minutes, his second highest total of the whole year. The him and cat combo has been great. Like, the Knicks have earned that win and have earned the right to be one game from the conference finals. By the way, can you imagine, just for a second, we're going to get there. Can you imagine if... Six, seven months after that trade, we get a Wolves-Knicks finals.
Like, it's not off the table right now. It's very much actually on the table. But anyway, I just want to say that because we're not going to talk much about the Knicks. Porzingis... But what I was thinking was, why was Pritchard not in the game for Porzingis last night? And I checked, did I miss him getting in foul trouble? He's been awesome the whole series. Porzingis can't make anything.
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Chapter 3: What were the key moments and emotions inside the NBA draft lottery drawing room?
Didn't discourage tanking. I like the rules this way more because as you know, I hate rewarding incompetence, which is where we were for years and years and years where, you know, Philly broke it in the 2010s with how they handled stuff. But, you know, if you're going to do it, go back to the old way.
I then think you have to change the rules a little bit so you can't win the lottery twice in a row or you can't be in the top two two years in a row. And, you know, you got to add wrinkles that make it so that you can't be bad for like three years in a row. But I didn't mind what happened yesterday, to be honest. this is what they voted for.
They voted 29 to 1. And you remember who was the only dissenter, I think, was Oklahoma City. And Oklahoma City, their viewpoint on this, Pressy's viewpoint on this was, this is the only way small markets can get superstars. And you are minimizing our chances of doing it through lottery flattening. But this is what you voted for. You voted for chaos. You voted for more competitive balance.
And people are still like, is it good? Is it bad? And it was a big topic of discussion at the GM's meeting before this all happened.
Well, the bigger issue is there's so much talent in this league now that even if you tank for a couple years and you end up in a situation like, wait, just happened to Utah. How many years did they throw away now? Three or two? I can't remember.
I mean, they threw away like half of each of the previous two seasons and then all of this one.
And now they have nothing at all to show for it. And you're also in the West where you still have the worst roster in the West. You know, so... I don't know. I mean, if you're just looking at this, if we're writing this in a professional wrestling standpoint, flag going to the Mavericks is hilarious. It was the funniest outcome.
The best basketball outcome would have been San Antonio to watch him with Wemby. But... I don't know. I don't feel bad for some of these teams because they disgraced the sport of basketball for two and a half months. This is kind of how it goes. And it didn't work out for the Celtics in 07. I mean, we've had all these teams that didn't work out for Charlotte in 2012.
What did they go, like 5-45 or whatever that lottery was?
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Chapter 4: Did the NBA lottery reforms succeed or fail based on last night's results?
I described it as suicidal.
Yeah, it's just like you're basically adding 12 years to an asset. You're buying into somebody who's already put together this seven, eight year run who I don't know where it's going to go the next five, but he's got some miles on him versus like you're buying in a flag. He's still 18. who can fit in with the roster you have now because he's so good defensively, he can play small forward.
The only thing I would ever have a meeting for if I'm them is if San Antonio basically offered to overpay for the flip.
I heard you say that last night. I thought that was really interesting.
How many picks are we talking about? Do you want to go all of our picks? Two-thirds of them? Let's at least have the conversation. But I just think Dallas is going to take them. And I don't think there's... I just don't think there's a trade that would make sense, especially like Dallas doesn't have their picks from 27 on. Davis is 32.
Kyrie's coming back from his injury, but you figure this allows them to thread the needle both ways.
I thought that idea of San Antonio chasing the number one pick was interesting. More interesting to me almost if I'm putting myself in the Spurs shoes than trading the number two pick at a whole bunch of stuff for Giannis. But here, do you want to hear my snap reaction to this? All of the top three picks based on, you know, like everyone is still digesting this. I saw a bunch of people last night.
I talked to a bunch of people. Here's my snap, like gut. Number one. I don't think Dallas is moving that pick for Giannis and probably not anybody. The vibe I've gotten is like they realize the life raft that they have been gifted and they're not going to mess with it.
Also, it's hope for a fan base that either gave up on the team and moved on to somebody else or is so mad at them. Now they have something to hold on to. And I don't think you give that up.
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Chapter 5: Who were the biggest winners and losers in the latest NBA draft lottery?
Chapter 6: How are rising playoff injuries affecting the NBA's season structure debate?
Everybody was dying of laughter, like muffling their laughter, looking at each other like, are you kidding me? The Dallas Mavericks. So it was like that incredulous crowd sound. Just so incredulous that it didn't even dawn on anybody that Philly has now been potentially knocked down.
It dawned on Sam Presti for sure that Philly, who needed to be in the top six and entered at five, has now seen a team jump them. OK, so everyone is like, oh, my God, are you kidding me? And the jokes afterwards were great. I'll get to that. Okay, ball two. Or drawing two. So Dallas is now one. First ball, 12. Okay, high number. Second ball, 13. At this point...
Ned Cohen, who's representing the Sixers, the Jazz people, the Wizards people, the Hornets people are all just like, I don't even care anymore. Just give me a one or two and a three. So no one else jumps up from the bottom and knocks us all down. They're like rooting for each other at this point. All the crap teams are like, whatever. If it's you, that's great. If it's you, that's great.
It just can't be another team knocking us all down. 12, 13, 11, 5 Spurs. Everyone's like, are you, like, again, the Spurs? They get the number two pick. Then you start thinking about Giannis. Like, the Spurs actually, to me, become a more likely. I'm not saying likely.
I'm just saying their chances of really sniffing around Giannis as a trade target, I think, go up with the number two pick versus number one. And I think they definitely are like, we're just keeping Cooper Flagg. He's amazing.
Yeah, I agree with that. We talked about it last night because there's two ways to go, right? You could say, all right, we'll take Harper. We'll grow together with this little young nucleus we have and see where it is two years from now. Or you say, fuck it. Let's go. Let's go for this now. We could have Giannis and Wemby and Darren Fox and Castle. Let's see what happens.
I think the door is ajar, but just a little, at least a little ajar. So the Spurs get two. Everyone is like, well, they just got Wemby, they almost got Flag, now they're two. And then it dawns on everybody, oh my God, Philly is fucked. Philly's down, two teams have jumped.
Because two teams have jumped them, yeah.
They're down to seven. Presti is well aware of this, I'm sure, sitting in the front row, delighted that his odds of getting a top 10 pick have just skyrocketed. And everyone is now digesting that worst case scenario for Philly has unfolded. This is like what a cataclysm for this franchise that has endured so much, much of which has been self-inflicted. Would you have even gone if you were Daryl?
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Chapter 7: What are the implications of the lottery results for teams like the Spurs and Sixers?
What do you mean? Franz, his contract kicked in. That's like a contract match, isn't it?
Yeah, but Franz is good and young and he's our guy. And if they love someone at three, I guess... I mean, that is the kind of guy you would have to think about it for because he's the right age.
It's in that level, right?
It's the right age.
Yeah, it's somewhere around that class of... That's not bad. ...of player. I think Philly keeps the pick and I think they take Edgecombe. I have no inside info. I just... Having known Daryl for 20 years, Edgecombe seems like... one of their type of guys, but it's a weird one because you could also say it makes way more sense just to have Max and McCain, this number three pick and just go young.
Right. But they can't because they have this and beat extension that they just gave out that nobody's going to want. And then Paul George for three more years. So kind of threaded the needle, uh, both ways. I wonder that's a, that's maybe that another possibility is they could trade back. dump a contract, still keep some sort of asset. But yeah, it's a weird one.
I mean, we're 12 hours removed for 15 hours, whatever it is, from this chaos.
Who do you think are the best players that might actually be available in June? other than Giannis, who I'm still not convinced is gonna be available. I said this on my pod yesterday, I still didn't really fully understand that story, where it's like Giannis is now open-minded about maybe, I would assume every star is open-minded every off-season. He didn't ask for a trade.
Until he asked for a trade, it's a non-story to me.
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Chapter 8: What are the biggest questions facing the NBA regarding tanking and playoff fairness?
Thanks for asking. I would try to build around my three and try to upgrade around and maybe solve the issue that they seem to have now where they have seven guys for five spots at the end of games. which can be a great problem to have, or watching game four and they end up winning, but it was kind of tough to keep Wallace off the court. He was really good that game.
Also, Lou Dort was off the court. He could make a three, but maybe you try to... cash in and get somebody awesome from those spots. I don't know. It hasn't been Presti's thing. Presti's always been about asset accumulation and never really panicking. The only time he really got a little gamey was that last Durant year. That was when he started.
I remember he started making some moves, started taking some swings. But yeah, I'm with you. I think this OKC Denver series goes seven. The Celtics, I think it's going to be so hard for them even to win game five with basically a five-man team.
All the offense running through Jalen Brown, which if you've ever watched the first three minutes of the second and fourth quarters, can be an absolute rollercoaster ride. My dad calls them the Brown minutes. Um, but you know, you think like the Knicks, that series can be done in five. Indiana feels like it's going to be done either in game five or game six.
Although they're like seven and a half point underdogs today. I was surprised by that. Minnesota seems like a wrap and okay. See, Denver seems like it's our one chance to have a long series. We didn't talk about the Minnesota. Um, are you, are you buying, um, Are you buying what we're seeing here with them? Because this is the best they've looked all year.
I picked him to win the series before Steph got injured. I do think the Warriors have been pretty game without Steph. I mean, they fell behind by 20 last night and threw the white flag pretty early. They're just, I mean, you talked about Oklahoma city having seven guys for five spots. The warriors have like four guys for five spots. It's the four guys for nine spots.
And when one, when one of healed or Pajemski is not on the floor, they just have, they have no one that can shoot. I mean, they have no shooting at all. So it's not been the toughest test for Minnesota, but ant looks awesome. Just poised and not going haywire. Like the haywire factor has been tamped down for the wolves all playoffs long. Randall looks great.
And look, they match up well with both Oklahoma City and Denver. They've played both those teams well. I'm not saying I'm picking them over either of those teams, but I think they have a real chance to make the finals, regardless of who comes out of that other series, especially if they can wrap this in five and get a little time off. They're healthy. They're deep. Their rotation is rock solid.
They know exactly who should play, when, and with who. And I don't see a path. I mean, Steph... is he really coming back in game five based on his interview with Mark Spears? It doesn't seem likely. Is he really going to come back in game six for a while? Is, is, is, is that, is he really going to do that? I mean, are we going to get there? I don't see a path to them winning.
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