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Are you hiding behind happy? Do you feel like you always have to lift everyone else up or people please, or should only be seen when you're happy? If this is you, you're not alone. Studies show 40% of us frequently suppress our negative emotions, all to put on a happy face for everyone else.
But doing that, experts say, can take a severe toll on mental and physical health and well-being without us even realizing it. Today's guest, Allison Holker, says she and late husband Steven Twitchboss know this all too well. And today on this episode of The Jamie Kern-Lima Show, Allison is sharing parts of her story she's never shared before.
with the intention, she says, of inspiring and helping others who might also be struggling alone before it's too late. She's also sharing how she says Twitch gave her permission and his blessing to share these parts of their story. Allison Holker is an Emmy-nominated choreographer, dancer, host, actor, and author.
She first burst onto the scene when she competed in So You Think You Can Dance, where she met fellow dancer Steven Twitch Boss, who she married in December of 2013. She and tWitch amassed millions of fans across the globe with their heartfelt spirits and warm, inspiring dances.
In 2022, tWitch sent shockwaves through the world and through his family when he took his own life, leaving behind his wife Allison and their three kids and leaving millions of people asking why and how could this have happened?
And today, with the hope of helping others see the warning signs with their loved ones, or perhaps seek help for themselves, Allison is sharing lessons, insights, and revelations she's had, including the heartbreaking realization that she says her husband Stephen's infectious joy was hiding pain, secrets, and self-doubt deeper than anyone knew.
In her brand new book called This Far, My Story of Love, Loss, and Embracing the Light, Allison is sharing her story for the first time ever and says she's donating 100% of the proceeds from her book to the Move With Kindness Foundation. Coming up in this episode... We were both talking about having another baby. And three weeks later, what you call the incomprehensible happened.
Steven took his own life.
When the cops first told me what had happened, I did not believe them. I thought they had gotten the wrong person.
You say Steven embarked on an ayahuasca journey, which is a plant medicine journey, and you say that he wasn't the same afterwards. Yeah.
I think it was a very big turning point for him. I feel like his heart was never really in the same place when he came back. There was something missing in his eyes. It just kind of feels like he opened something up to himself that he never healed and never fully escaped. I will always celebrate Steven. I think he was a wonderful person, and I'm really sad what he went through.
But I also have to be careful because I can't celebrate so much of his choice. And that's a really fine line I have to walk as a mother right now is because they are very hurt by their father's decision. And they have a lot of triggers that they have to be in therapy now to really work through.
But what I am impressed with is that they are doing the work and they are putting in the time and they are finding joy in life and they are finding laughter again. But there's a lot to unpack for them that they'll have to deal with for the rest of their lives. Can you talk about the tree emoji the night before he died? This will be something I will always be confused about.
We had had so much trust in our relationship that we never had ever had locations on our phones. I had never even looked at his phone. I don't even know what his codes are. I don't know any of his passwords. I don't have a bank account shared with him. I never had. I wouldn't even know how to...
look at anything like that's how much in our relationship was just like if he told me something i just believed it and so when the cops were asking me all these questions well have you looked at his phone where is you know his locations have you looked at his bank accounts i was like i don't have access to any of it on the third day after he passed you were cuddling your daughter zaya and you say stephen paid you a visit
Yeah. And said, I'm so sorry. And I love you so much. I'm sorry. And Stephen's face faded away. I felt a lot more settled. I wasn't fully healed or anything like that, but I felt settled that he was watching over us.
and looking out for us.
And do you know and believe with a billion percent certainty that was him?
Yes. There's been moments of Stephen visiting both Wesley and I multiple times. He still visits us and still talks with us.
When he comes to you or speaks to you or visits, have you ever asked him why? I have.
Have you talked to God about this? I know a lot of people, when they experience death, they question God. But this wasn't God's choice. This wasn't God's doing. He still wraps his arms around us and he still supports us. And he still sees us and he still sees my children.
You share that Steven gave his blessing for you to share all these parts.
He's really proud of my children. And I do think he's proud of me. He's told me he is. And he wanted me to do this. I was so scared that is this the right choice? Because I hope people read the messaging of what I really want this to be.
Yeah.
And he told me to move forward with it.
It sent shockwaves through the world. His millions of people every day were turning to you, to Twitch, for joy. He was known for his just unremitting positivity for lifting the spirits of so many people every day.
Steven would be Steven with our family, and then he'd be Twitch for the people. Steven at home was extremely introverted and Twitch to the people was extremely extroverted. And what I've come to now learn about him is that those things can exist and be real, but sometimes I think he masked his lows when he was maybe dealing with his depression as Steven.
I think I always grew up thinking that if I just power through, and same for him, we wake up and we say our gratitude and we say our affirmations and it really does pump you up. Yeah. That's why I'm saying I still do it to this day. And I see so much beauty behind it. And he was the same way.
We had like dry erase markers and we'd constantly be writing on our mirrors and writing stuff to each other to pump each other up. And, you know, if we were tired or sad, we'd be like, oh, let's go read this book together. Let's listen to this podcast together. And we both loved that and generated so much of who we are from that.
And I still do think there's so much beauty in it, but we didn't have the balance of it. I'm trying now in my life to learn better tools of you can be a positive person while also admitting that you're having a sad day. I wish I could have been a stronger person knowing signs when they were right in front of me, but I didn't know.
I didn't have the tools learning about depression before as I never really thought it was something that we were going to have to deal with. So I didn't have the proper tools of really looking back and stepping back and seeing that, wait, this has maybe got a little bit carried away. Maybe there's something deeper happening here. Like the hygiene, he wasn't working out anymore.
He didn't want to be hanging out with friends anymore. I would be inviting people over. He'd be like, I really want people coming over. A lot of people might hear that and be like, so why would you do this? And also they could say to me, why didn't you see it better? It's like, but you justify things when you're with someone because I loved him so much. I was like, it's okay.
I sometimes think he doubted himself so much if he deserved that love because he was receiving so much of it that he thought he had to outpour it. Just give it to as many people as I can. To make him almost convince himself maybe that would make him deserve the love. That, yeah, you have to learn for yourself to understand that you deserve, you deserve so much love for who you are.
And you don't have to earn any of it. You can just receive it.
and accept it and that's enough a lot of us have a hard time receiving love or we'll give it right back i do that all the time give it right back and you're saying he was so good at just giving it all back but he didn't keep any for himself yeah when people would pour it into him there's so many people listening right now and watching that have been through hard times that have dealt with loss with struggle that are on their healing journey that are
looking for inspiration to give themselves permission to laugh again and to love again and to feel joy again and to feel fully alive again.
I am the best version of myself that I've ever been. I'm a stronger version of myself. I'm a happier version of myself.
And it's because I can honestly look back on my life and say that I have left it and lived it through integrity and honesty, authenticity, and I have carried my beautiful children with me, lifting them up, having honest conversations with them, still seeing the beauty of life no matter what is thrown my way. And I'm really proud of that. Be the mirror.
and visualize a mirror in front of you because all the naysayers, all the hate, all the words, all the questions coming in at you are people doubting themselves and putting it on you. So that also helps.
But really, the superpower is... Talking about social media, you have gone Instagram official. Instagram official with your new partner.
What's interesting when you've gone through life in the way that we have, people get really scared to admit that. And I just want to yell it and scream it that I'm in love.
This episode of The Jamie Kern Lima Show contains material of a highly sensitive nature that may be triggering for some, including possible references to suicide, drug use, depression, and child and sexual abuse. Viewer and listener discretion advised.
Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life.
Jamie Kern Lima. Jamie, you're so inspiring.
Jamie Kern Lima.
November 17th, 2022. So you and Stephen were on the Jennifer Hudson show.
Yes.
And you were both talking about having another baby. Mm-hmm. And three weeks later, what you call the incomprehensible happened. Stephen took his own life.
Mm-hmm.
It was devastating, very confusing. Like you said, three weeks before he committed suicide, we were celebrating that we wanted more kids. And the joke in our home was I gave him an option. Either he gets another kid or he gets the three Doberman Pinschers that he wanted to have. But I was like, you can't have both. You don't get three new dogs and a new baby.
And it was something that our family was joking about for months. I had told Steven I would love to have another kid with him, but he also was like, oh, I don't know. I kind of want to have these dogs though. And Wesley would chime in about it. Maddox would chime in. I was a little bit too young to really fully understand, but it would be like a casual talk at our dinner table.
Like, all right, what's the choice gonna be? Which is why we were so willing to talk about it on the Jennifer Hudson show. You know, they obviously vet questions. It's not like they randomly come up with these questions. They would talk. It was, what's something that's so funny that you guys are talking about in your house? And that was something that was coming from him.
You know, we also were actively looking at new homes at that time, you know, and he would be sending me pictures of homes and I'd be sending him pictures of homes and we'd be discussing like what we wanted and the best area to live in for our kids and their futures.
When you're doing those things and laughing about it and having so much fun and you're involving the children in on those kinds of conversations, to have him decide to make this really permanent decision to leave us was very confusing. there were no signs at that moment that we had seen. And I say at that moment because I had been with Steven for 13 years.
I started dating him when I was 22 years old and you know, all these little kinks that he had had that maybe I look back on now as maybe being signs of depression or maybe being signs that he had like really big lows happening in his life. At those moments, we kind of justified them because they had always been there. They weren't new things.
And so it was very confusing when he made that decision because we were blindsided. There had never been discussions in our house or individually with me or him being in therapy where there was big discussions happening that he'd been questioning.
these kinds of choices for himself or been so low that he needed to be in therapy or been so low with our family that we needed family therapy or been so low with me that he might need couples therapy there there had been no discussions or lead up to any sort of low happening in our family household to ever have seen anything coming this way um And I didn't believe it at first.
When the cops first told me what had happened, I did not believe them. I thought they had gotten the wrong person. And I was like, I was convinced that it was wrong. I was like, no, you guys don't understand. There's no possible way that this is my husband. and my kid's father. There's no way. I was like, you guys don't know him.
And it took a lot to impact that he made that decision, especially after a lot of the knowledge that I've grown over the last couple of years from discussing this topic with therapists and with crisis leaders and crisis teams, explaining that what they've said to me is that unfortunately, when he talked about shame in himself,
A lot of the shame he might've felt for himself was the hardest thing to learn is how sad he had been probably for so many years and covering it up that I also didn't know and couldn't have helped, that none of his family or friends knew that he was this low and couldn't have helped and that he was so sad and not willing to ask for help
And, um, to be a partner that you feel so like I, we had such a, I got such a beautiful relationship and one that was, I thought in enthralled with trust and love and joy. And no one has ever heard that from him ever.
I know. Um, at the time, like it sent shockwaves through the world because millions of people every day were turning to you, to Twitch for joy. He was known for his just unremitting positivity for lifting the spirits of so many people every day. You say in your book this far, you say at
I can't emphasize enough that our happy moments, our joy and that and the other videos that Stephen posted toward the end of his life were genuine. Stephen was navigating a complex emotional landscape. He fluctuated between genuine happiness and profound sadness, flipping between the two as if his brain were a dimmer switch. Yes. Yes.
You know, the people that were closest to Steven, we always actively talked, and he would in interviews himself, talk that he did have the two personalities. He was Steven to the closest around him, but then he also wore the face of tWitch. And being in entertainment, I've always heard about celebrities or artists wearing those faces.
You know, you hear about, I believe that Beyonce has one and she's like Salsa Fierce as well on the side. So you always hear about people that kind of take on these characters when they get on stage. And so I've never really seen it as anything, but wow, that's a really fun way of living your life.
Like, you know, you get to be your stage performer, but then you get to be you, you know, behind closed doors with the people you love and care about the most. Yeah. And it's kind of like almost like a protective shield. And I always saw Steven doing that. Steven would be Steven with our family and then he'd be Twitch for the people.
And sometimes they would intertwine, you know, they would kind of veer back and forth in our home space. But Steven at home was extremely introverted and Twitch to the people was extremely extroverted. And what I've come to now learn about him is that those things can exist and be real, but sometimes I think he masked his lows when he was maybe dealing with his depression as Steven.
Like I need time to recoup my energy from being Twitch all day. And not just from exuding all this energy, which I thought it was like, oh, he's just tired. Like he just had a big day of putting on this extroverted energy that he just needs times to rest and like kind of recoup the energy back. But no, he was actually masking that he was actually really sad and depressed sometimes.
And maybe not every time, but some of the times it was actually his depression taking over him that he would mask that energy with.
And I think sometimes now when I look at depression or these traits that he had, I wish that he would have had help with therapy or someone he felt safe talking about the conflictions that he would have with himself and his personality and maybe learning better tools to keep some of himself full in his own cup instead of always trying to pour out into everyone else.
Well, you say no one, not his coworkers, his family members, his friends, who he considered brothers, had any idea of the depth of his despair. And you say Stephen was the one that others reached out to when they were actually going through mental health challenges. Yes.
Stephen was someone that people...
trusted you you were in a safe place when you spoke with him and you could he would never judge you for what you were going through and that's what was so beautiful about him is he he opened his heart to anyone and everyone anything you were going through and and he would make time for you and he'd make space for you and he would just listen he was such a great listener and
And you would always walk away feeling so much better. And I know if he would have told himself the things I've heard him say to other people, he could have helped himself. But with that role he took on, I think he was really scared of people not wanting to do that anymore if he maybe was honest about what he was going through.
Mm-hmm.
Because then just knowing his personality and how much he loved that and cared for people and some of the things he's now said and things I have read that he's wrote, it's he feared if he wasn't that hero for other people and if he maybe was honest about what he was going through, maybe they'd question going to him.
Like maybe we would trigger him and we can't trust talking to him about it because maybe it would get him into a low. if we're honest with him about what they're going through. And he liked being that person for people. And that's why I do, I really believe that he always wanted to help people. Even in his lowest moment, he thought he was helping.
You say that you both embodied toxic positivity. Yes. Both of you. Can you share a little about that?
Yeah. I think I always grew up thinking that if I just power through and, and same for him, like if we're, we wake up and we say our gratitude and we say our affirmations and it really does pump you up. Yeah. That's why I'm saying I still do it to this day and I see so much beauty behind it.
And he was the same way we, we had like dry erase markers and we'd constantly be writing on our mirrors and writing stuff to each other to pump each other up. And You know, if we were tired or sad, we'd be like, oh, let's go read this book together. Let's listen to this podcast together. And we both loved that and generated so much of who we are from that.
And I still do think there's so much beauty in it, but we didn't have the balance of it. We didn't have the balance of it. I think we we also both enjoy our work so much and became such work heavy people. And he was such a work guru that I think in order to mask going through his deeper rooted feelings, I think he would keep himself busy.
And I as well, I can't say that I'm talking just about him, I do the same thing and I still struggle with that. It's just I'm trying now in my life to learn better tools of, you can be a positive person while also admitting that you're having a sad day.
I mean, so many of us, we believe this lie, like I should only be seen when I'm happy. Or people only love me when I have it all together. And so many people right now listening to us, watching us, are that way. It's so ingrained in so many of us to do that.
I want to ask you about, you share in your book that after the Ellen show ended that Stephen had more jobs, more job offers than ever, but he started turning them down. He wasn't excited about the ones that he did do and he started getting sterner with the kids, started drinking and not taking care of his hygiene.
Yes. You know, it's interesting because when it first started unfolding, I just thought it was like, it really pains me to say this because I wish I could have been a stronger person knowing signs when they were right in front of me, but I didn't know. But the hygiene thing to me is probably the biggest red flag.
And I honestly just was like, he's been working his face off for like 15 years straight. He's tired. He's like, let me just be a man laying in bed all day. Let me rest up. Because we knew that going into the next year, like after the Ellen show ended, we had like six months and he was still working all of that summer.
We knew we only had like a couple more months before we were supposed to have our biggest year of our lives with jobs. So I kind of just was like, oh, like he's just sleeping right now. He didn't feel like showering today because he didn't have to go to a set. Like we just kind of, and he would joke about it. Like he'd be like, I know, I'm sorry.
Or like, it was something that we were aware of, but we more painted it like, nah, you've got a couple more months before we got to get back in shape and get back into everything. And And we would discuss it. And he discussed it even in interviews and stuff that was like, yeah, like this is just my time to kind of sit back. And we kind of justified everything instead of like,
You know, I didn't have the tools learning about depression before as I never really thought it was something that we were going to have to deal with. So I didn't have the proper tools of really looking back and stepping back and seeing that, wait, this has maybe got a little bit carried away. Maybe there's something deeper happening here. Like the hygiene, he wasn't working out anymore.
Okay.
You know, there was a time when we were in Hawaii with our kids that I now look back on and it pains me so much. We were going to the beach. I packed everyone their sandwiches, got the kids ready, and he was actively like not helping. And I don't say that to tear him down, but he wasn't. He was sitting on the couch and not helping getting with you ready. But I was like, all right, cool.
Me and my nanny were doing it. Got everything ready for the kids, got all their activities ready. And we go to the beach and we're running into the water and the waves and we're all laughing. And I looked back at him and he was wearing all black, he had his black tennis shoes on, his black sweatpants he wore every single day because he wasn't showering and washing his clothes.
Same black hoodie, he had his black backpack, or sorry, his green backpack on. Still on his back while we're sitting at the beach in Hawaii, in the sun, black beanie on, arms folded, black sunglasses, sitting. And again, I had said to myself, he's been working his face off. He's just tired. Like, who am I to try to like drag him out into the water if he doesn't want to, you know?
And I probably was like overly cautious of stuff like that, but I was like, I don't want to invade his space. It's okay. It's okay for him to just have this moment with himself. Because we would always talk about how introverted he is and he likes to be in his thoughts and stuff. But now I look back on that and a lot of people might hear that and be like, well, so why would he do this?
And also they could say to me, why didn't you see it better? It's like, but you justify things when you're with someone. Because I loved him so much. I was like, it's okay. And you say he wouldn't take the backpack off. Do you know what was in the backpack? Yes. He always had his self-help books in his backpack and his journals.
And even then, like, you know, when he would be feeling a little bit like tired or exhausted, he'd always like hold his books and read them. And they were always self-help books. He loved books like The Alchemist was one of his favorite books. The Four Agreements was one of his favorite books. And he constantly had books like that on him.
You said once that you walked into a room or walked by a room. He was reading a book. And you and maybe some other people in your house walked past a while later. And you're still reading. But you noticed it was the same page. Same page.
And that's looking back on things like that is when I realized that when he was checked out at the times I thought he was like recouping his energy, he was really in his thoughts in a dark place.
Yeah. You say in the book, like me, Steven never wanted to burden people. My best guess is that he felt he should be happy. And the fact that he wasn't, made him feel infinitely worse, as though he didn't deserve to live if he couldn't revel in his blessings. The only way I can explain it is that Twitch and Steven were locked in mortal combat. One became the murderer and the other the victim.
I really believe that he was such, because I don't say these things to tear him apart. He was such a beautiful individual, but so beautiful in his heart that he never wanted anyone ever to feel his pain. He never wanted that for people. He always wanted to be someone that they could look to and lean to at any given moment that he could just pour out to them. And I really believe that
He loved people so much. Because I've also had people ask me, were people not pouring into him? And I'm like, this man was loved by our family, by his family, by all of his friends. He was, oh, he was reveled. People loved him. Everyone idolized him and looked up to him and could lean on him and trusted him.
But I sometimes think he doubted himself so much if he deserved that love because he was receiving so much of it that he thought he had to outpour it, just give it to as many people as I can. To make him almost convince himself maybe that would make him deserve the love. That, yeah, you have to learn for yourself to understand that you deserve, you deserve so much love for who you are.
And you don't have to earn any of it. You can just receive it.
And accept it. And that's enough. Which is such a lesson for every person because how many of us get a compliment? We're like, oh, that was on Sailor. Oh, no, no, my hair's a mess. Oh, no, no. Like a lot of us have a hard time receiving love or we'll give it right back. I do that all the time. We give it right back.
And you're saying he was so good at just giving it all back, but he didn't keep any for himself when people would pour it into him.
And I think he started towards the end having a little bit of cracks that he was getting a little bit low. And I think him seeing that himself, when people would start asking, are you okay? Are you okay today? It would trigger him. And he would get really upset when you asked him that because he always thought he could wear this face and convince everyone he was okay.
And that's another thing that we started to notice is if you asked him if he was okay, it was very triggering to him. It was like, yes, I'm okay, of course I'm okay. And so I think those little things starting to pour out into our children or into me or into people starting to see that, Oh, he's maybe not okay today.
I think him seeing how people react to that maybe or how they might react to it started concerning him.
There's so much more coming up in this episode. You are not going to want to miss it. But first, I wanted to share this with you. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy.
How to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you.
In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self-love, unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt, and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness. overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them, and so much more.
Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth. Get your copy of Worthy, plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy.
Imagine, what would you do if you fully believed in you? My weekly free inspirational newsletter is packed with tips and tools to help you find out. It's called One-on-One with Jamie and it's delivered right to your inbox each Tuesday morning. It's a love letter from me to you, from my soul to yours. And I hope it brings you the words and messages you need at just the right moment.
Plus, when you're a part of my free inspirational newsletter community, you'll be the first to get behind the scenes content, inspirational messages, and be the first to learn about upcoming events and more. It's the place to be, and I sure hope you'll join me there. So if you're not on the list yet, You can sign up for free at jamiekernlima.com or click the link in the show notes below.
And here's to becoming unstoppable together. And now more of this incredible conversation together. You say on a trip to Maui that he might have been telegraphing in the most incredible conversation about life after death where he was suggesting a multiplicity of universes or if we cross through time zones. What do you make of that?
We had hiked to the highest peak of the mountain in Hawaii and it was magical. We had to go all the way above the clouds and we wanted to stargaze. And it was something that we did without the kids.
we wanted to just do it with ourselves so we could have this like really romantic moment together and we got to the very very top and it was oh the stars were so bright that night it was so beautiful and we were having this big discussion about life life and death and how beautiful it is and how that we don't believe that after you die that that's the end of everything that
you could cross into another life. Like you could cross into another path or another future and that you could find that love again in another lifetime. And we had this, what I thought was such a beautiful discussion about life after. And I was like, wow, like we're so deep. I was like, this is so incredible. And I feel like I always was learning from him.
And sometimes I look back on that discussion of like, wow, like we really beautified death. And he was never scared of death. He almost celebrated it in that moment. And it kind of gives me the heebie-jeebies looking back on it. Because parts of it still are really beautiful. But some of the things and the depth that he would go and the thoughts that he had had, death had been on his mind.
It almost felt like sometimes he thought death was chasing him. And he was learning to accept it. And so I sometimes look back on that discussion because I remember going back to our Airbnb that we had had at the time and I was like, wow, like we had such a profound talk and it was so beautiful.
And sometimes I look back and I'm just like, his thoughts in mind had been racing about it for a very long time.
You say Stephen embarked on an ayahuasca journey, which is a plant medicine journey. And you say that he wasn't the same afterwards, after ayahuasca, that he was no longer joyful or generous afterwards. that he seemed like he woke up on the wrong side of the bed. You say that the experience can have the opposite intended effect on some people.
Do you feel like that was a big turning point for him? I think it was a very big turning point for him.
I feel like his heart was never really in the same place when he came back. He still could find joy and he could still go day by day, you know, putting on his face and getting through the days. But there was something missing in his eyes. It just kind of feels like he opened something up to himself that he never healed and never fully escaped.
I know you share that he had some controlling issues or he would want you to stay in bed till seven every day. Yes. And so that he could have his space to do what he needed and then he would bring you the same coffee at 7 a.m. every day in a Superman mug.
And I used to think they were weird quirks and weird things. And he would tell people that, yeah, I don't let her come downstairs, so I give her her morning coffee. And I used to laugh at it and be like, oh, ha, ha, ha, he's so sweet bringing me coffee. But really, why wasn't I allowed to come downstairs? Because he would be triggered if I came downstairs before. I'd be in trouble.
But as his wife, I just kind of thought, oh, it's cute. And it's his way of letting me know that I'm allowed to come downstairs. But now looking back, I'm like, well, that's I guess it's not really a normal thing in a relationship. And our kids also weren't allowed to go downstairs. There was like an order in which things had to happen for him to feel comfortable to start his day.
And at first I was like, oh, well, it's just kind of like our morning routine. Right. And now as I've come to learn and my own self-healing, learning that, oh, that's not normal. That's not okay. And I started to unpack a lot more of like, well, what were you doing in the morning? Why did you need to have that much time? What was going on? So it's, I think sometimes what I'm learning right now is
I will always celebrate Stephen. I think he was a wonderful person. And I'm really sad what he went through. But I also have to be careful because I can't celebrate so much of his choice. And that's a really fine line I have to walk as a mother right now is because they are very hurt by their father's decision.
And they have a lot of triggers that they have to be in therapy now to really work through. But what I am impressed with is that they are doing the work and they are putting in the time and they are finding joy in life and they are finding laughter again. But there's a lot to unpack for them that they'll have to deal with for the rest of their lives.
Can you talk about the tree emoji the night before he died? Yes.
Oh, this will be something I will always be confused about. So the night Steven, he came home. He was very triggered. He was very triggered. Me and Wesley were watching The White Lotus show. We loved that show. And he came in and I could tell something was wrong. Um, he had texted me earlier that night, a tree emoji, which was his way of telling me he was going to the dispensary.
Um, he didn't do it that often though, but if he was going, you know, either he told me, but I was with Wesley, so he probably didn't want to say to me that he was going. So sometimes he would use like a tree emoji or symbolism and text me. Um, but the reason that night it felt different was because the next day when he decided to take his life, he had been at the Oak Tree Inn.
And there was a tree that looked just like the emoji. And the dispensary was right across the street. And I've always wondered to myself, was he at the hotel already? Is that why he came home so triggered? Had he attempted and then got scared and then was too shameful to tell me? And I'll never know. But that night was very triggering for me. And it was very obviously triggering for him
But I'll never know. But that emoji will always kind of be a little bit of a scar for me.
When you realized he hadn't come home and you were figuring out what to do and how to handle it. You say, I was convinced that he had to be hurt or lost somewhere. I tried to convey to the police, but they didn't understand. Stephen's the most loyal, loving husband and father. We had just returned from a lovely anniversary weekend, for God's sake.
We're happy, I told them as a little voice in my head whispered, right? Mm-hmm.
When I went to the cops the first time, they wouldn't even let me in because I'm not sure what the rules are everywhere, but in LA, you can't report an adult missing shorter than 24 hours. So I had called and tried reporting and it wasn't working. I had ran there because I was like, this is just different. And they wouldn't even open the door to me to report him a missing person.
And I just knew something was wrong. I just, I knew this isn't my husband. He hasn't just not come home. He hasn't just like take off and, you know, miss dinner with my kids. He doesn't just do any of that. So I knew something was really, really wrong. And I was convinced he was hurt. I was convinced he had been in a car wreck or I didn't know.
I had no idea, but I was convinced he was in a hospital or he had been wrongfully arrested. But they wouldn't accept me for 24 hours. And then when I finally made the report, you know, now I look back and I'm like, unfortunately, these reports are probably being made, unfortunately, way too often than they should.
And so I now know that they were just doing their jobs, but it felt like when they were asking me questions, they were like, you don't, He's probably just ran away at a bar with friends, doesn't want to see you, you know. And it just felt like they were shoving this man away, like, you know. But really, you know, they were doing their jobs and they were doing a really good job.
But it just to me at the moment felt like you're not doing enough. You're not looking for my man. He's probably hurt and he might die in this moment that we're not looking for him. And to this day, I can never really express to someone trying to navigate how to find someone that you love so much and you don't know where to look. It's very scary.
We had had so much trust in our relationship that we never had ever had locations on our phones. I had never even looked at his phone. I don't even know what his codes are. I don't know any of his passwords.
I don't have a bank account shared with him I never had I wouldn't even know how to look at anything like that's how much in our relationship was just like if he told me something I just believed it and so when the cops were asking me all these questions well have you looked at his phone where is he knows locations have you looked at his bank accounts I was like I don't have access to any of it and to to me I look at that as being a trust thing the cops they were like
Why don't you have access to any of that? And so those things kind of trigger you when you're going through those things of like, I don't know why I would have those things. I never thought about it before. But really at the end of the day, the cops were a huge support system to me and they were really patient with me and kind to me and they were kind to my children.
And I'll always be forever grateful for the way they tried handling that situation with me.
You say you and the kids, you are Steven's pack and you believe he disappeared down the road, separating himself from you and the family because he was very, very, very, very sick and didn't want to weigh you down.
When we lost our dog, Crypto, which was Stephen's best friend, it was a few years ago, and I remember the vet telling Stephen, and he came home and conveyed the message to me, our dog, Crypto, had a couple of times tried leaving our home and disappearing, and it's because our dog was very sick. And what the vet had told us was that
when animals feel sick that run in a pack, they don't want their loved ones to get sick with what they have. So they choose to leave and pass away with not taking any harm to their own family. And I remember that really sat really deep with me and Steven that like crypto left our home, not because he didn't want to be with us, but because he was almost trying to protect us.
And that moment came back to me when Steven passed away the way he did. and where he chose to leave. He didn't want to be too far away from us because he missed us and loved us so much, but he didn't want to be around us because he loved us so much.
On the third day after he passed, you were cuddling your daughter Zaya and you say Stephen paid you a visit.
Yeah. You know, I... I've always had dreams since I was young that sometimes come to life and I've had dreams that become very real. Two of my children named themselves in their dreams to me. I had seen Wesley and Wesley told me her name was Wesley well before she was born and Maddox I had seen in my dreams and someone else called him Maddox in my dream.
But I had seen my children in my dreams well before they were born. I believe in that. I believe that sometimes you can tap into future or past and present moments that are unfamiliar and bizarre. But if you study it and learn it and accept it, it can come to you. After Steven had passed, I hadn't slept in about four or five days, I think it had gone by at this point.
And my kids really hadn't either. And Ziya was crying hysterically and it was supposed to be nap time, but she just could not settle herself. She could not go to sleep. So I went into her room and I laid with her. And she's very, very little and she's still trying to comprehend what had just happened. And I laid in bed with her. And we both just held each other.
And then all of a sudden the room started shaking and my eyes, I closed my eyes, but I wasn't asleep yet. And everything started shaking in the room. And there was almost like the static you see on TV behind my eyes. It was like black and white static. And I saw three faces. And I don't know to this day what those other two faces were, but it was staticking between three different faces.
And then at the very end, I held onto one of the faces and it said, I'm so sorry. And I love you so much. I'm sorry. And Steven's face faded away. And then we both took a nap. It was the first time I had slept. And I think maybe one of the first times she had slept since everything had happened. And I woke up and I felt a lot more settled.
I wasn't fully healed or anything like that, but I felt settled. that he was watching over us and looking out for us.
And do you know and believe with a billion percent certainty that was him?
Yes. There's been moments of Stephen visiting both Wesley and I multiple times. He still visits us and still talks with us. And, you know, there's been times though, it's been really beautiful and then there's times it's been a little scary. But I know we feel him and when we need him, we go talk to him.
And then there's also been unfortunate times we've been like, please give us some space on the flip side of that. And there's been times that we've been like, I would love to talk with you. I'd love to see you. I'd love to speak with you. But we know that he's watching over our family. I know that Steven always loved us and always wanted to protect us.
And in whatever way in his mind, he thought he was doing that. And I'll never fully comprehend and I'll never fully understand that that was his choice. And I don't know if I'll ever fully be able to forgive him, not for me, because I forgave him for me, but for my children that that was the choice he did. But in his heart of hearts, he thought that he made the right choice.
And my job now as the parent to these beautiful children is for them to know that this is not the way out. There are other avenues. There is therapy. There is help. There is talking to the right individuals. There's a support team around you that will help navigate the space with you. That the choice that he made is not the choice that we will make moving forward.
What was the role of faith in his life? I, you know... know that he has attended church in the Christian faith. And you mentioned he was spending a lot of time with a shaman doing medicine journeys. That's a totally different thing. What was the role of faith in his life? And also for you, what's the role of faith in your life?
I always grew up in a religion with my family that I have so much respect for, but I had left it for a few years. And then I really wanted to go on my own journey of faith. And I was so blessed to find the Mosaic Church with Erwin McManus. He's my pastor and Beck and Joe. I absolutely adore them. And I've been going to that church now for years. I don't know, well over eight, nine years.
I absolutely adore it. They're my people. And I had brought Steven with me a couple of times and he kind of got into it. And Steven, when he was growing up, had bounced around a couple of different faiths with his family. And then he would go with me to the Mosaic Church. I think Stephen would say he was more of a spiritual person, more than a religious person.
He was always on a journey trying to find himself and become the best version of himself, which is why he did a lot of
reading and listening to podcasts and he always wanted to he always really was trying to be the best version of himself always so he was a deeply spiritual person he would pray he didn't read scriptures or bibles by any means that wasn't his choice but yeah he was a very spiritual being Have you talked to God about this? I have. I've talked to God. I've talked to my pastor. And
It's really hard because for me, I feel like in my heart, I've learned forgiveness and the complications and the complexities of everything. And I've never questioned God through it because I think a death like this is a little bit different. I think when people lose someone, when they're a person of faith, I believe sometimes they question God.
But I think when someone takes their own life, you don't question God in it, you question the person and why. So I think for my children and myself, we still believe that God is so beautiful and looking out for us and seeing us and representing us and being there for us. It's the person we question what they were going through.
Because I know a lot of people when they experience death, they question God. But this wasn't God's choice. This wasn't God's doing. He still wraps his arms around us and he still supports us. And he still sees us and he still sees my children.
Do you believe our lives are divinely orchestrated?
I do. I believe that.
Even the unfair things?
Yes, even the unfair things. But you can't have one without the other. You can't have love without having pain. You can't have highs without having lows. It's the only way we see we have those. And so that's why I've never questioned God. I've never questioned life. I've never questioned the beauty and the existence of waking up every single day and looking at the trees.
Like when I wake up and I feel the wind on my face, I just feel so blessed. I don't question any of it. I know that life is the gift. I've always believed it. I still believe it to this day. And I know my kids, that's what I want for them. And I know that life life through all of its lows. It's how you handle it. I truly believe that we're given a choice every day. We often hear the afterlife.
Are you going to go to heaven or hell? And yes, you can believe that. But I also believe that we have that choice here today on earth. Which are you going to pick? Are you going to pick your life hell? Are you going to pick your life heaven? And I choose every single day to say that this planet, this place I am at right now with my decisions and my choices is my heaven.
with how I look at the world, with how I use it, with how I see it, with the people I surround myself with, that the choices I make daily, the The way I see things, the gratitude I have, this is my heaven. And I can have a heaven after, but I'm not waiting for that heaven. I can live it now. And that's something I try to teach my children.
And I still think that life, even through your darkest moments and your darkest beliefs or the things you've had to experience, it's what makes life so beautiful if you accept it.
That's so beautiful. You know, I feel so grateful and blessed in my life that I've met so many inspiring, incredible humans doing amazing things, people that I could have only dreamed of meeting. And even with that, I don't know a single one of them that also doesn't have struggles and doesn't deal with things behind the scenes and doesn't go through hard things and doesn't have dark days.
And I think when we talk about purpose and when you talk about what you're sharing in your book this far, I think that It's so powerful what's happening with the number of people realizing, oh, just because I have these struggles and these things I'm going through that I've been hiding from everyone, including the people I care about most, that doesn't mean I'm disqualified from also
Achieving great things from also being a worthy great incredible amazing powerful loving human being like both coexist both coexist and I feel like You know, I prayed before this episode that our conversation is Exactly what someone listening needs to hear in their own life because when we bury all the things and hide them from people and we don't get help for them. It's just,
can exist or end in so many unfortunate ways and you know i want to call out again the number of men who have written and it's all over online everyone can go see it right now the number of men who have shared their stories saying that by what you're sharing and by
what no one had any idea Steven was going through, that they connect so deeply with that, that they also are wanting to be the superhero for their parents, for their partner, for their kids. And so they just hope this other stuff will go away. But they're realizing, oh, wait, maybe I actually need to do something about it. Um, before it's too late.
And I want to ask you about that part of it and how that makes you feel seeing so many letters and so many emails and DMs and people sharing their story about how deeply they connect to this and maybe didn't even acknowledge it in their own life until now. your story and Steven's story?
Well, first it breaks my heart to see so many people that haven't shared so many full parts of themselves with the people they love for so long. And they've walked around with this pain on their shoulders and tried shielding it from everyone to protect everyone around them. So it pains me.
But also that is what, you know, as we're talking about the beauty of life and death is Stephen was an example to people that we should choose a different way and we can be support systems and we can trust that we can still be loved. by the people around us if we just lean on them a little bit. And they're not going to see us differently.
So it also makes me really happy that so many people are willing to come forward now, especially these men that have been maybe on the brink of their own sadness and questioning themselves. And is this okay? I'm so proud of them for finally stepping into their full wholeness of emotions of
willing to share who they are and what they're going through and willing to go to therapy now and talk about it or reach out to their friends and check on them in a different kind of capacity now. I'm really proud of them for taking those steps forward. And I hope that we can just continue to encourage each other to do that. Because that's what this is.
That's what life is, is we're supposed to be a community of people coming together, acting like villagers, supporting each other, leaning on each other, letting someone have a low and experiencing it, but then how do we pull you out of it? Let's get you back. You know, we're not going to run from these emotions. We're going to experience them, but we're not going to sit in them forever.
We're going to find healthy tools to get out of it and support each other. And it just makes me really proud that the community is now coming together. I can't tell you how many support groups I've now known of friends that... I've had friends for years that are men that came to me like, I'm now in like a little social group and they meet once a week and they just talk about their emotions.
In Utah, I have one of my best friends. He now goes to a support group of men and they do sound baths every month. And it's just a place for them to go to meet up with other people that are maybe having a hard day and they do healing journeys together now through healthy mechanisms. And, you know, I've had so many letters of people saying that they opened up to their wives for the first time.
An uncle. That's so dear. I had no idea was so low cried to me. He just melted into my arms and was like I Understand Steven so much and I'm so sorry and it gave me the courage to open up now, you know And so I'm I'm grateful that unfortunately this happened to me my family But it's made an impact around the world to hopefully bring some change you share in your book that um through a psychic
that Stephen gave his blessing for you to share all these parts of your life. And you're sharing today on this episode him visiting you and you talking to him. Do you think that he's seeing all of these people now making changes in their lives because of everything? And how do you think he feels? Do you think he's proud of you?
I think he's proud of everyone. That's all he ever wanted to do was celebrate everyone.
else in their lives and I think he's really proud that people are bringing change and finding bravery in themselves to step forward and pick up these pieces and carry on through life I think he's really proud and I think he is proud of my family I think he's really proud of my children and I do think he's proud of me he's told me he is and he wanted me to do this I was so scared that is this the right choice because I hope people read the messaging of what I really want this to be
And he told me to move forward with it. And I did not tell this medium about this book. I did not tell the medium what was going on. I didn't tell the medium to try to reach for anything in this kind of department. He just said it to her and threw her to me. And it was a moment I'll never forget.
And it gave me so much courage that no matter what is said, I know I'm doing the right thing for the right reason. And it was both beautiful and scary having someone speak him and his words to me directly. And it was completely unexpected. And it was just something that I needed at that moment. And I think he knew I needed that. And so he came in again into my life and gave me the
encouragement and the right and not even permission, but just that he saw what I was doing and believed in it as well.
There's so much more coming up in this episode. You are not going to want to miss it. But first, I wanted to share this with you. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life.
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Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth. Get your copy of Worthy, plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy.
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And here's to becoming unstoppable together. And now more of this incredible conversation together. I wanted to ask you, you know, you've talked about how you've danced, your children have started dancing again, but that you haven't yet danced at true full capacity. And I want to ask you in this moment right now, have you yet danced at full capacity?
I have not danced at full capacity and I know that pains me and so many others to hear, and I know I will get there, but this has been a long journey for me. And I think what I've been doing the last couple of years is taking one healing step at a time and making sure I'm fully ready to embrace it. So then I'm doing it for the right reasons.
And so every step of this journey for me has felt different. Like I'm conquering something new for myself and conquering something new for my children. And I know I'm gonna get to that step, but I want to be there so bad. And I know I have so many people supporting me, wanting to see me there, and they're just waiting for that moment to happen.
And I am too, but I know it'll happen at the right time when I'm fully ready to embrace it, where I can accept my talents and my skills again, but not just to do it, but to also give back with it in the same way I used to. I've always said that I was a storyteller through dance, but I always told other people's stories through dance.
And I think my journey now through dance, it's just waiting for me to finally be able to dance this story. And so it's just waiting for the right moment and the right preparation and the right people to be around there and around me supporting that to bring it to life. And I know it will happen, but unfortunately it hasn't happened yet, but it will happen at the right moment. Yeah.
Do you know what song it will be too? I think it's actually going to be a collection of songs. In order for me to fully express this journey I've been through and this story that I have to tell, it's going to be a whole... It's gonna be a whole production and I'm excited about it, but it will be a lot of work ahead of me.
But I know it's an important one to tell and to share because though I have this book and I can share my story with my words, I know my powers and my movements and that still needs to be shared.
There's not gonna be a dry eye. When this happens. You know that, right?
Yes, I know. It's going to take a lot of work for me not to have to be crying the whole way through it as well. Yeah. But I'm excited for that. And I know at the right time it will call to me.
There's so many people listening right now and watching that have been through hard times, that have dealt with loss, with struggle, that are on their healing journey, that are looking for inspiration to give themselves permission to laugh again. and to love again and to feel joy again and to feel fully alive again.
I am prepping for this interview, have watched so many interviews you've done in the past. And one of the things that you shared a few times is you said like, the one thing you wish someone would ask you, no one asks you is this question. So I'm going to ask you this question. And that question is, Alison Holker, who are you now?
I love that. Thank you for that. Because it is, everyone always wants to jump to the past. People tend to live in the present, but no one wants to look at who you are moving into. I am the best version of myself that I've ever been. I'm a stronger version of myself. I'm a happier version of myself.
And it's because I can honestly look back on my life and say that I have left it and lived it through integrity and honesty, authenticity. And I have carried my beautiful children with me, lifting them up, having honest conversations with them. still seeing the beauty of life no matter what is thrown my way. And I'm really proud of that. The person I am today, I'm proud of that I can...
honestly say that I just want to lift people up. I want to see people succeed. I want to lift myself up. I still romanticize about life. I still see the beauty. I can look at a tree and look at it with such eyes of like, oh gosh, this is such a majestic thing that's existing in front of me. And it's so beautiful. And I get to experience it. I can look at the
the littlest thing in the room, the biggest thing in the room, and still celebrate it. That's who I am. I am someone that still wants everyone around me to be the best versions of themselves. I don't wish harm on anyone. And to me, that's what life is, is just going out and experiencing and accepting. And if you can do that and be resilient, You've won. You've won.
And I just want to continue to do that and to teach that and preach that to other people. That what I am today is I'm happy and I'm settled and I'm content with whatever's thrown my way. And I know I'll be okay. That's who I am today.
You say in your book, if people want to hold on to an image of me with him, that's fine, but I can't do it anymore. I'm not the same person who is Stephen's wife and I must own that. I'm a new human and I'm not scared to say so. I'm giving myself permission to evolve.
I'm really proud of that. You know, there was definitely a moment where after the tragedy that I was really in doubt with myself of, will I ever like myself? Will I ever forgive myself? Can I ever forgive him? Could I ever get past this great loss and trust anyone again? Could I trust myself? Can I look at people and ever see the beauty again? I did.
There was like, I mean, it wasn't very long though. You know, there's a moment. There's a moment you feel really, really low. Can I ever be loved? Can I love? And then I quickly turned that around and said, no, that's not who I am. It's not what I've ever believed. And I'm not gonna let myself fall down that tunnel. I deserve love. I deserve life.
I deserve to still experience this with my children, and they more than anything deserve that. And I can't be an example telling anyone to pick up and wake up and go about a day and see the beauty in life if I'm not doing that myself. So I quickly turned the energy of victim mentality and woe is me. And I was like, I don't live this way. That's not who I am.
And I gave myself that permission to be fully embracing and accepting of life and love because that is what we're here to do. And that's what I want to preach. And that's what I want somebody to tell me. And that's what I'm going to tell someone else. And that's what I'm going to tell my own personal being to be. Every single day. And I have chose love.
And with giving myself that permission, it has found me again. And it's brighter. And it's more beautiful than I could have ever expected. And it's healthy. And it's shiny and wonderful. And it gets to be a beautiful thing that my kids get to share with me as well. And they get permission now to do that for them.
I want to ask you one thing because I just, I think... You know, my heart and soul, why I do this show is for every person listening to feel like, oh, wow, it's not just me. And, you know, to feel less alone and more enough and to feel that they're worthy, like worthy of loving who they are, worthy of, you know, asking themselves, what do I need? And what do I want?
And, you know, believing they're worthy of their goals and dreams. And I just know there are so many people right now who maybe are bogged down by other people's opinions. Like maybe they've had a loss and maybe, or a breakup or a tragedy or a setback or a divorce or they lost their job or any number of things happened. And it's been two years for them.
And they feel inside like they're kind of ready, but maybe they have people around them that are gonna judge them for moving on. In today's world, you are somebody with millions of fans and supporters all over the world who love you. And what we know in 2025 is anybody doing anything at all, even if you're breathing, you're going to have people that don't like how you breathe.
And I want to call this out because there's going to be a lot of people listening and watching to us that they don't have big public platforms, but they have their in-laws or their friends or their coworkers or the moms at school, and they all have opinions. And with you... you know, having such a large public platform.
How do you handle, and I actually want to ask you about a tool that your therapist shared with you. Can you talk about the tool your therapist shared with you that you use when you see someone's opinion that might be disagreeing with something or there might be a hater or a troll online doing something or whatever it is, talk about the tool that you use. It's going to help a lot of people.
Well, even before I get to the tool. Yeah. I will say, and I know a lot of people are gonna have questions about why I say this and the way I say it. With Stephen's passing and the way he passed and how loud it was around the world, I had so much noise around my life while I was in my grief, in my darkest moments, crying, confused. Everything was so uncertain in my life.
Everything was taken from me. I had lost what I thought was the love of my life. My kids no longer had their father. I was so confused. I had no explanation. I had no closure. I had no idea why. I was having so many opinions thrown about me that it was my fault, that I must have seen something, that I must have missed something. That I must have been the cause, that my children, what happened?
How did they not see anything? There must be a hidden agenda. There must be this over here. There must be the Illuminati. I've had so many accusations thrown my way. And there was just so much noise everywhere. Questions, doubt in myself, doubt from family, doubt from friends everywhere. People I thought were the closest people to me turning their backs on me.
Some of the people I didn't know that would be there with me coming to be at my lead, to be at my side. It was so confusing and so overwhelming. And then there was a morning I woke up and I still believed in who I was. And with all the naysayers, with all the noise, with all everything that was being said about me, I still believed in me. And I never doubted that.
And I never lost out on my integrity. Because I never called out anyone else. I never said mean things about anyone else. I've never tried justifying anything for anyone. I've just stayed in my own heart, in my own head, and healed myself. And that's where this became my superpower. Because anyone could say anything about me that they want. And I know it will never change me and who I am.
And I've never let it. And my kids have been able to see that, that I have never said anything that I regret. I have never made accusations. I've never yelled at anyone that I shouldn't have, you know, tried to make accusations at. I've never let anything destroy who I am in my heart. And I still love living. I still love waking up every single day. I love being a mother.
I still love every experience that's happened to me, no matter how dark it was. That is my superpower. So it doesn't matter what people say about me to me anymore. I'm still standing because I know who I am and that's all that matters. And then when it came to my therapist,
It was at moments hard to have that belief in myself because so many people were attacking me on social media, in the public eye, family, friends, losing people, that I needed a little bit of extra encouragement from her to really stand on my own two feet. Because a lot of people mostly were coming to me with their own stories while I was on my healing journey.
They were coming to me with their stories and their grief, and it would be really emotional And she taught me that when people are saying things to you, you're a really strong-willed person, but it's still kind of keeping in there a little bit. She was like, be the mirror.
And visualize a mirror in front of you because all the naysayers, all the hate, all the words, all the questions coming in at you are people doubting themselves and putting it on you. So that also helps. But really, the superpower is believing so much in yourself and knowing and having integrity in who you are and self-worth that no one can drag you down.
Yeah.
Not that many years ago, no one even had to worry about social media. And whether someone was a doctor by profession or a lawyer or a teacher or they could be private. And now their profiles are online, their businesses are on social media, their reviews are on every page. And It's so new for a lot of people to see comments that aren't favorable for them.
And I love what you shared about the mirror because I think it's also... in addition to how powerful your journey is and how self-assured you are. And just thank you for the depths of what you've shared in terms of how you've gotten there. And why I like the tool, the mirror so much is it's so easy for every one of us to see a negative comment and be like, oh, that's about me or that's it, right?
And your therapist saying, oh, actually it's the mirror. Meaning, It's actually just a reflection of the person who wrote it, right? And there's a famous saying that says we don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
Mm-hmm.
And I think the mirror is another way of saying that. And I think it's just such a great tool for everyone, especially, oh, my gosh, kids, teens, but honestly, adults who have never had to deal with this. I mean, in the past, someone wrote a complaint letter in the mail, sent it in. No one ever saw it. And now it's like all of these people instantly –
are somehow both experts and critics at everything. And it's really hard on a lot of people. And it makes a lot of people want to hide and disappear. And I think it's just such a great reminder of every time we see a comment that maybe is clearly just intended to be ugly or low vibration or mean. It's really, it's a mirror. It's a reflection of the state that that person's in.
And I know you said you'll pray for people when you see comments like that. You'll pray for them because what pain must they be going through?
To say those things.
To say those things to someone else.
It was a really helpful tool when my therapist taught me that because I then obviously went and taught my children that because they're dealing with just as much as I'm dealing with. Yes, I'm the adult in it, but this is their world of social media and they're going to grow up with it forever. So I wanted to make sure I shared that tool with them.
Specifically right now, my oldest, who's 16, Wesley's 16 and, you know, in the trenches of social media, but, you know, With social media, I used to tell my kids, ignore it. And I thought that was the best advice. But we all know, no one's – you read it. You read the comments. You read everything. You see what people are saying. So the mirror – Or some friend or relative tells you about it. Yes.
Did you see – So it's a helpful tool, but I'm going to take it one step further. So when my therapist taught me that tool, that it's a reflection of that person and their own insecurities. You're too big. You're too small. You're not pretty. You're too pretty. Whatever it is, it's always a reflection of how that person feels about their own insecurities.
But I'm going to take it one step further because what I now use as my tool for myself is is anything I say about someone else is a reflection of how I see myself. Because if I'm ever gonna be so hateful and terrible towards someone, it's because I'm feeling that way about myself. So you can also use it as a tool of reflection of what you say to someone or about someone. And who you wanna be.
And who you wanna be. So the mirror, the reflection is on both sides.
All right, talking about social media. You have gone Instagram official. Instagram official with your new partner in your life. Can you tell us all about Adam?
Yes, I can. So I am currently in a relationship with Adam Edmonds. And honestly, I'm so blessed that he's in my life. He's so beautiful. He's wonderful to me. He's great with my children. He's a support system. He makes me laugh. We share in such amazing conversation. He helps me explore the world, explore myself.
And we have conversations that really explore life and each other and take us to bounds and leaps and places I never thought I could go. And while also being really fun and lighthearted, it feels like on our relationship, everything feels easy. And of course it's not, there's a lot that we still have to work through and navigate and work out together.
But doing with someone that you love and sees you and hears you fully is just, it's something that I appreciate so much in him, in that we get to share in life and experience it together. And there's an outpouring of respect that we have. And we both have been through so much.
And I think when both parties have experienced loss or grief in your life, you just want to celebrate that person and lift them up every single day. And I feel like that's what we try to do. And we do that. And it's something that's so beautiful. I'm so happy that I gave myself permission in my life to have love and experience and freedom with someone.
And I am just so grateful that God brought him into my life. He's been so wonderful.
Was it love at first sight?
Yes. Oh, it was so perfect. Literally, the moment I met him, it was just out of this world and the connection is deep and so rooted. And it feels like we've been together in past lives. And we were always supposed to find each other and just reconnect and be together. And it needed the right moment in life for us to be able to accept each other.
and be there for each other fully at our full capacity and our full love, full availability. And it has been just magnificent and perfect. And it's interesting when you've gone through life in the way that we have, people get really scared to admit that. And I just want to yell it and scream it that I'm in love and it's beautiful. And I, and I love that my kids get to see it.
Well, today is the first day you and I are meeting and congratulations on this far, your brand new book. First time you're sharing so many things. If you guys think that We went deep on this podcast. Wait until you get the book. The things that you share in particular about your own journey. You know, my favorite parts were who you've become through everything this far by Alison Holker.
You can get it anywhere books are sold. And I just want to thank you for being here on the show. So thank you, Alison.
Thank you so much. You've been so lovely. Thank you.
If you got value out of today's episode, my only ask is that you please click on the follow or subscribe button for this show on your app, give it a five-star rating or review, and then share this episode with everyone you believe in. Share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it.
Post it and share it with others online or in your community who just might need the words and the tools and the conversation in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. And thank you so much for joining me today. Before you go, I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true.
You, right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world. And it is an honor to welcome you to each episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show.
Here, I hope you'll come as you are, heal where you need, blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling, and stay as long as you like, because you belong here. You are worthy. You are loved. You are loved. And I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of The Jamie Kern Lima Show.
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It's an honor to have these conversations and create a space for others to share their stories with you and me together. The intention of the show is to be a force for good and a force for love in the world and my prayer is that this episode is both for you today. Do you struggle with negative self-talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting.
I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful. And when you learn to take control over your self-talk, it's life-changing. And I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your life. It's called Five Ways to Overcome Negative Self-Talk and Build Self-Love.
And it's a free how-to guide to overcome that negative self-talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self-love so that you can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self-sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life when filled with self-love, resilience, and unwavering belief.
If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence, and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com slash resources, or click the link in the show notes below. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief.
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it's time to go from doubting you're enough to knowing you're enough it's time to step into all of who you are and into the person you were born to be and it's time to believe that you are worthy of it because in life we don't become what we want we become what we believe we're worthy of
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The gifts are going away, but they're all free right now on worthybook.com. It's such an honor to share this podcast together with you. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.