A battle has been brewing between President Trump and the judicial system as courts delay some of the administration's rapid fire executive orders. WSJ’s Jess Bravin joins Ryan Knutson and Molly Ball to discuss the recent clashes between Trump and the courts. Further Reading: - Chief Justice Roberts Criticizes Trump’s Call to Impeach Judges - Trump Escalates Push Against Legal Norms - A Presidency of Upheaval Emboldens Trump Further Listening: - A New Phase in Trump’s Immigration Fight - Trump 2.0: The Uncertainty Economy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What sparked the recent tensions between Trump and the judiciary?
Hi, Molly.
Hey, Ryan. Are you ready to talk about all the hot court action this week?
Yes. Have you picked your team?
My team? You know I don't take sides. No, I'm talking about March Madness. March Madness. Oh, Ryan, I'm way too much of a nerd for that. I was talking about the judicial branch. Nerds love basketball too, Molly. Not this nerd. Sorry.
Right. Okay. The court. Yeah. The Supreme Court. The judicial branch. There is a lot going on there too right now.
There is indeed. It's really heating up.
Did you see this statement from the chief justice?
I did see it. A pretty remarkable statement this week from the Supreme Court chief justice, John Roberts, who, you know, was nominated by a conservative president, generally votes with the conservatives on the court. But this statement essentially was calling out President Trump.
Is there a showdown coming between the executive branch and the judiciary?
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Chapter 2: What was Chief Justice John Roberts' response to Trump's criticism?
Well, it's very significant if they did, in fact, ignore a court order. Now, they're going to say—I mean, they are saying that there was not a valid court order in effect when they did what they did. But they also say that he—that this judge doesn't have the authority to do it. So they're sort of saying both things. One, he issued an illegal order—
So therefore, we wouldn't have to follow it anyway. But also, we didn't disobey his illegal order. I mean, that's essentially what they're saying. The judge has asked the government to clarify exactly what it did when, and the government is resisting saying that's national security information that they don't have to disclose to the judge.
The judge says he was, you know, he was on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. He was, you know, he has a security clearance. He's frustrated. And so we don't know where that's going to end up.
So after that little spat, Trump went on Truth Social and heavily criticized the judge, as we've been talking about. He said nobody voted for him. He said it was crooked. He said it was a troublemaker. And he said the judge should be impeached.
And that's when Roberts issued this statement that said, and I will just read it out loud, "...for more than two centuries, it has been established that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision. The normal appellate review process exists for that purpose."
Jess, like reading between the lines here, what is Roberts thinking here? What is he trying to say with his statement?
Well, he's trying to say that this is going to DEFCON 1 over the kind of legal dispute that is really quite routine. You know, judges issue preliminary orders in cases all the time. Those often do not reflect the final disposition of a case. Often the very same judge, when he gets into further deliberation and reviews all the arguments, will reach a different decision.
So temporary orders at the outset of lawsuits are quite common. And the entire legal system is premised on the idea that there will be appeals. Everyone is entitled to an automatic appeal of a district court to a circuit court, and then the Supreme Court exists above that. So the idea that the judge issues an order that you disagree with, even if you think it is, you know, incredibly mistaken—
Impeachment is not the remedy, and we know that because there have only been 15 judges impeached since 1789, eight of which were ultimately convicted by the Senate and removed from office. And they were people who, you know, had also been convicted of crimes or other kinds of true misconduct, not simply crimes. making a decision that the president thinks is egregiously wrong.
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