From Ancient Rome to the Antebellum South to modern Libya, Nick Pell unshackles the truth about slavery across human history on this Skeptical Sunday.Welcome to Skeptical Sunday, a special edition of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Jordan and a guest break down a topic that you may have never thought about, open things up, and debunk common misconceptions. This time around, we’re joined by writer and researcher Nick Pell!Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1149On This Week's Skeptical Sunday, We Discuss:Slavery has existed throughout human history across virtually all agricultural societies. The transatlantic slave trade represents just one episode in a long history of human bondage that continues today.The American Civil War wasn't primarily fought as a humanitarian mission to free slaves, but was a conflict between two economic systems: agricultural slavery in the South versus industrial free labor in the North.While the 13th Amendment technically abolished slavery and involuntary servitude in the United States after the Civil War, a loophole has been exploited to create a prison-industrial complex where private companies and government entities profit from cheap or unpaid prison labor.Modern slavery affects approximately 40-50 million people globally, with India having the highest number (11 million), followed by China and North Korea. These include debt bondage, forced labor, and human trafficking.We can help combat modern slavery by supporting reputable organizations working to free enslaved people. Sites like Charity Navigator can guide you to legitimate anti-slavery charities making a real impact in this continuing human rights struggle.Connect with Jordan on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. If you have something you'd like us to tackle here on Skeptical Sunday, drop Jordan a line at [email protected] and let him know!Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom!Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger!This Episode Is Sponsored By:Shopify: 3 months for $1/month on select plans: shopify.com/jordanCaldera + Lab: 20% off: calderalab.com/jordan, code JORDANLand Rover Defender: landroverusa.comSomething You Should Know: somethingyoushouldknow.netSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic of this episode?
Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers,
On Sundays, though, it's Skeptical Sunday, where a rotating guest co-host and I break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions about that topic, such as why expiration dates on food and medicine are nonsense, acupuncture, astrology, chemtrails, GMOs, toothpaste, diet pills, energy drinks, and more.
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Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. It's impossible to talk about American history without talking about slavery. The transatlantic slave trade is one of the most brutal episodes in American history, and the resulting American Civil War is one of the bloodiest wars in human history.
Unfortunately, however, American slavery is just one episode in a long and very disgusting story that runs from the dawn of time until today. So we wanted to take some time and give a more balanced, longer-term view of slavery than just one centered on slavery in America, though that's definitely part of the story. Now, I'll warn you in advance, this one is kind of icky.
Slavery everywhere is obviously icky. Slavery in America has ramifications even up to current day. So I'm asking everyone to please give us the benefit of the doubt here before you decide that we are, I don't know, horrible Nazis or whatever just for talking about this. I know, I just stepped right all over. Benefit of the doubt, folks.
Here to help me unchain the topic is writer and researcher Nick Pell. All right. So I'm deliberately setting the bar real low so that the rest of the episode doesn't sound as bad. And we'll see if that strategy actually works out. Now, Nick, I came to you with this topic because I know you'd have some unique perspectives.
Right. It's time that somebody was fair to the slavers of history.
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Chapter 2: How has slavery existed throughout history?
Oh, God. Absolutely not what I meant.
Yeah, I know. Me neither. But it was just too easy. You're right, by the way, this topic definitely needs a more balanced, level-headed, and I think more to the point, historically accurate review of things.
You want to make sure we're being fair to history, slavers too, like you said. Got it. Okay.
One of the things I really think we should discuss right off the bat is that slavery isn't a part of the past. Slavery is happening right now. And when somebody says slavery, you immediately think of the American South, the transatlantic slave trade, big plantations in Virginia and South Carolina, that kind of thing. But America didn't invent slavery.
And in historical terms, antebellum slavery, the pre-Civil War period of slavery in North America is just the blink of an eye in historical terms. There's a much broader history of slavery. In fact, it's more or less the default means of organizing labor throughout human history.
So when you say the default means of organizing labor, what exactly do you mean by that?
So there's some hunter gatherer societies that have slavery, but virtually every human society that invents agriculture also manages to invent slavery. This is probably also a good place to start talking about what we mean when we say slavery. So I think slavery for the purposes of this episode is actually referring to two overlapping phenomenon.
First, there's chattel slavery, which is people owning other people. Not only are you working for me for free, but I can sell your kids or basically do anything I want to or with you.
That's, I think, typically what people mean when they talk about slavery, especially when they're coming from a Western or American perspective. So what's the other kind of slavery?
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Chapter 3: What are the different types of slavery?
So this is obviously all quite horrible. It's an interesting distinction because when we think about slavery, the whole not getting paid part of it, it's not even remotely the most disturbing aspect of slavery, right? The wages are really low or like non-existent. Yeah, that's not what we're worried about here, folks.
Well, I'm also worried about that. But you're correct that it's not being paid for your labor as a slave is the least of your worries when you're a slave.
Right. Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Yeah. I'm more worried about my kids are being sold for me and I'm getting physically abused or worse constantly on a daily basis and living in fear. So when you say the slavery is the main way labor is organized throughout history, why is that? Is it just because it's cheap or free? I mean, maybe it's a dumb question.
So some things never change, and one of them is that you can't get something for nothing. If you want to make things happen, you need one of two things. You need muscle or fire. You have to yoke a bunch of horses together or get a bunch of dudes to work together, or you need to light something on fire and use the energy from that to power a machine.
The big change between ancient history and today is we've got way better stuff to light on fire. We've got oil. We've got coal. We've got magic rocks that boil water for us. There's less need for muscle. But the ancients didn't have any of that. They had wood. And so they had to lean a lot harder on muscle.
I see. Okay, and before people want me to do a Skeptical Sunday on magic rocks, we're talking about nuclear power, right? You're just being facetious. Yes. Funny. Yes. The whole time you're describing this, I'm thinking of the Hebrew slaves and the Ten Commandments building the pyramids, and they're just... carrying all those giant- Moses! Yes, exactly, right.
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Chapter 4: How does modern slavery compare to historical forms?
And apparently, somebody's going to correct me on this or affirm me on this, but apparently Jews never actually built the pyramids, but whatever. Despite what it might say in the Bible, the Jews were maybe never really in ancient Egypt building the pyramids at all. Kind of a disappointment.
A lot of my Jewish friends are pretty proud of their ancestors' hand in building one of the wonders of the world, myself included. Although, man, as a Jew, I can't imagine, even if they tried, they'd be like, these people complain way too much. Get rid of them. We need somebody else. I can't listen to this anymore.
I'm so glad that my Jewish wife can't hear any of this to react to it. Actually, as everybody knows, the pyramids were built by aliens.
Yeah, go get the aliens. I can't listen to this guy complain anymore. He's driving me crazy. They're driving me nuts. Yeah, I mean, a bunch of those ancient wonders were built by slave labor, probably most of them. Kind of a downer, takes a bit of shine off of things.
But you're right, if it's the default way of doing something and it's really grand, it probably wasn't a passion project of the leader to do himself in his spare time.
Yeah, you guys are not allowed to enjoy classical architecture anymore.
Yeah, they're canceled. The pyramids, Parthenon, the Acropolis, all canceled. Sorry, folks.
Yeah, these kinds of large-scale architecture and infrastructure projects are definitely one of the bigger uses of slavery in the ancient world, which isn't to say that every...
hand that ever touched a stone that went in the Parthenon was slave labor because I don't have the info in front of me but like I would be shocked if that were the case because a lot of it's highly skilled and the artisans and stuff are going to people are going to be like hey there's documentation of artisans being paid to decorate this thing and it's okay but where did the raw where'd the frame come from well you know who dragged the marble there exactly yeah so the main uses of slavery in the ancient world are
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Chapter 5: What role did African tribes play in the transatlantic slave trade?
It's like the good guys are grabbing people off the streets and forcing them to go to war. And if your emergency is such a big deal and your war is so great, presumably you wouldn't have to be threatening people with prison or grabbing them out of bars and like forcing them to go to the front. And this is not meant to be a specific comment on the Russo-Ukraine war by any means.
It's just to illustrate the point that, okay, so insert country you don't like here has a draft. Is their draft okay?
Right. I do see your point. I don't know if I agree in all cases, but that's not really what we're trying to explore here. Now let's hear about some of the fine products and services that support this show, none of which were made by slaves. Probably. Maybe. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by The Defender.
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Chapter 6: How does the Barbary slave trade differ from the transatlantic slave trade?
And right, you laugh because it's ridiculous. But for some reason, the state does it. We just go, OK, it's OK now. And if that's your view of the world, I understand that my view of the world is not the same as many other people's. But that is my view of the world. Things don't become OK when the state does them versus when private entities do them.
I guess I have to agree. It is forced labor, but maybe war existential crisis to this day facing genocide. It's like the one situation where like maybe and again, I'm not saying this is my opinion because I have to think about it more. Maybe this is the one time where it's actually acceptable. But now I'm saying, hey, forced labor is acceptable if, you know, colon.
I got to think about this a lot. This is like a philosophical thing I wasn't expecting to dip into. Service of the state, maybe it's different than being forced to, you know, farm potatoes for Monsanto someplace. As for prison labor, I can definitely see some people arguing that since you're convicted of a crime and society has to pay to house, feed, clothe you, etc.,
that working in prison is just paying your debt to society. But that's another conversation. And also, you mentioned that there's profit happening off of this. Am I getting some rebate on that then? No, the private prison system is profiting off that. So that's definitely not fair, right? I heard about these fire brigades at this prison that I worked at in California where I did some volunteering.
They have a fire brigade and the guys like it because they get to be outside all the time. And also it is optional. They're not forced to do it. But also they're doing like controlled burns and stuff. So they're helping the state of California. That might be a little bit different. But then are they paid? But then that money goes to the prison. And is that a private prison?
I don't know how any of that works now that you mention it. Obviously, slavery still exists. In an underground sense, no matter what we think of prison labor or the draft, I kind of want to get back to like what everybody universally agrees is slavery. I know it's going on in North Africa.
Yeah, there's open air slave markets in Libya right now. Thanks, Hillary Clinton.
Yeah, you're not joking. I looked this up a couple of weeks or months ago. when I was thinking about this topic for Skeptical Sunday. I've seen some insane photos of slave markets in Libya.
It's worth a Google because it's really wild to see something like this happening in 2025 where it's being photographed and videotaped in 4K for the whole world to see on the internet and you just see like an Ethiopian woman bound and gagged in a room with a bunch of other people. It'll break your brain. And I guess people are being sold.
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