Scott Payne is a retired FBI Special Agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement investigating cases against drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, and domestic terrorists. He is the co-author of the book "Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis" and the subject of the podcast "White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse," both created in collaboration with journalist Michelle Shephard. https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Code-Name-Pale-Horse/Scott-Payne/9781668032909 https://link.mgln.ai/63oNQg Join Visible by visiting visible.com/rogan and experience all-digital wireless with nothing to hide, with plans starting at $25/mo. Visit LifeLock.com/JOEROGAN to save up to 40% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: How did Scott Payne's undercover career start?
Uh, good question. I grew up in South Carolina, um, played ball, all that stuff. I, I was always kind of a, I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, cause that's not it. You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses. Um, but I was kind of a bully of bullies. I didn't, I always looked out. I liked the underdog. Um, I bounced in college.
Uh, so I was already learning that gift to gab, um, and fight techniques and stuff like that. And then I got, I became a cop because when I was in college, I took a course, I'm taking electives. I went to college. So I'd have four more years to figure out what I was going to do because I didn't know what I was doing.
except partying except you know i did three years i was good at partying um but uh i had an elective that was criminal justice and man i really liked it um psychology was always a strong thing for me but it took a back seat and i ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology but during those criminal justice courses i was like
At first, for a fleeting moment, I said, I'm going to be an attorney. Yeah, I'll be an attorney. And then I realized I'd be a terrible attorney. I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, they did it. Right. That's not going to get me any clients.
Chapter 2: What skills are crucial for undercover work?
And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kennison, grabbing him and going, say it. You did it. So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me. And I did a ride along with cops and the department. And that was it. But once I got in to law enforcement, I was uniform patrol for three years. I was just so fascinated with undercover. I don't know what it was.
I can't really remember doing the book. I've tried to dive back in. People ask. I don't really remember. I just know that. I loved undercover movies, period. If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was. I love them all. And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, he was actually the world's strongest man in the late 80s after Kazmaier. Oh, wow.
He was a former Marine and big dude. And he... on a task force had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And, man, I wanted to be a biker. I grew up on motorcycles, and that just started taking off from there.
You've got to think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover because it's such a theme. You think? It's been around forever, the stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs.
It's been around forever. Forty-plus years right now. Easy. Wow. Yeah. And then there's books made. There's books made. They go to court. They learn.
Yeah. So it was right after the Vietnam War, right? That's when all the biker gangs really started kicking off.
I think it goes back to World War. I mean, my history is bad, but I think it goes back to World War at least two. Really? Because all those, the way it goes, everybody always asks what a one percenter is. And it goes back, I think it's 1947, but it goes back to when your veterans are getting out. They have nothing. They had no decompression back then. They had no plans or programs for them.
And they've been out here living this raucous, rowdy life. And now they're back in the States, and now they're supposed to just flip and be like... So they started creating these clubs, and they were doing some raucous and rowdy stuff. And then it was the president... of the American Motorcycle Association.
They came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good, loyal, abiding citizens. There's only 1% that's bad. And they took that as a badge of honor and said, we're one percenters.
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Chapter 3: How do biker gangs and undercover operations intersect?
No, I don't.
So it's been going on forever. As soon as they found out. It's like it's been the case with the mob. It's been the case with everything.
Sure.
Donnie Brasco. Yep.
My mentor. One of my. Really? Yeah. Joe Pistone. Absolutely. Oh, wow. He helped certify me. I saw him probably within the last six months or so. Graciously, he did a blurb on the book, too. Oh, wow. I call him boss man, you know. So do you remember your first undercover assignment? Uh, yes. Yeah. Uh, it was at the sheriff's office.
So I, after three years of uniform, I make it, uh, to narcotics investigator. Well, you got, it's a tough crowd, but we're funny, you know, but it's, it's just like a good military group or anything else. There's going to be a lot of ribbon and stuff like that. So, uh, They said, hey, you're going to go buy some dope tonight. It was my first time.
Now, granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school, and I was around those groups, but I never bought crack cocaine. I was already probably 6'4", and I probably was about 270 pounds. I did not look like I smoked crack. Unless I just fell off the wagon. Or I just started, yeah. I'm the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef. I just stopped. But they told me, hey, it's real easy.
You're just going to roll down to this corner. It's a known drug trafficking area. You're going to roll down there. White boy, you're going to roll down the window. They're going to come up to you and say, what do you want? And back then it was a 20. You just get a rock, 20 bucks for a rock. And say, all you got to do is hold that 20 and say, you just want a 20. So I drove down there.
I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone. But I was also scared to make a fool of myself in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me. And I roll down the street and I pull up and they come running up to the window. What you want? What you want? I crack the window. I crack it about this far, and I stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a vending machine.
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Chapter 4: What was Scott Payne's first major FBI undercover assignment?
And generally it goes like you get some trainings during the day and then we're running scenarios and we're putting you into live stuff. But day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep, I've seen people nut out. And mine are in psych. I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know. Maybe we were on the SWAT team together.
Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away. But you go to the UC school, and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in, one of my buddies walked in. He looked like he'd been raped by a tribe. He walked in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail. I'm like, are you okay?
And some people, it's just – I would say that the reason – The training is like that. It's not hazing. It's just so we don't lose anybody. We try to make it as real as you can. Well, you got to find out who's going to crack. Yeah. And think of this. In a real scenario, not all undercovers are like this. But in the ones I would usually do, there's going to be a lot of times with no sleep.
My skill set led me not to Wall Street. It didn't lead me to the yacht. It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscled for the mafia guy. Unlead me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. So I get certified and then I go back and role play. And that's when people start kind of seeing.
And you're trying I mean, you're trying to make a name for yourself. I wasn't getting calls because on paper, I'm a white guy with a foreign language. But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, hey, you got anything? Hey, it's big country. You got anything? More medium now. I could even be little country at this point.
But I'd be like, hey, you got anything for any rednecks with no foreign language? And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh, and then they'd finally ask me to come to school. And once you do the school, now there's season undercovers coming back. And they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions.
And that's where I kind of started getting into some things. It has to be one of the most exciting things. kinds of law enforcement. For me, absolutely.
It has to be so crazy.
I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies.
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Chapter 5: How does undercover work impact personal life?
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just pop and this sucker's like 90 degrees and i'm like mother i pulled over i slammed on the brake well i mean snow but come to the stop and i go what the f is your problem and he's looking at me he's going i don't know what he was on but he was in an evil space right and i'm looking at him and i'm going look if you want to f and fight we'll stand out in the damn snowstorm right now and we'll go at it i know you think you can whip me but maybe i can whip you
And I saw it wasn't going anywhere and he was getting more and more angry. And I just looked at him and I went, he's an animal right now. I'm going to defuse. I'm going to deescalate, which is really what you should be doing as an undercover. And I look over and I go, hey, hey, after I pop my finger in, I go, hey, sniff, smell, good boy, friend, friend, like that. I'm trying to calm him down.
Then he starts laughing. But that's the kind of stuff you get. But to me, it was no different than being in college, playing ball.
Hanging out with psychos.
Yeah, when you're there in the month of August and nobody is there. It's just 24-7 football.
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Chapter 6: What challenges arise during undercover missions?
And I go, because I'm the gringo that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through. And that was really happening on the border. And I knew that because I was on the border working it. Again, real things. You're just putting them into your story.
Um, but I'd now let them know it took a long time. I don't put words in their mouth. Um, but I started laying breadcrumbs over weeks and months that I did used to be in the dope game. And of course, Joe dogs, the president, I mean, the first time I met him and he said, where are you from? I said, McAllen, Texas on the border. His next question was how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?
And I went, well, if we were needing predication, uh, I think he just gave it. But his business skills weren't that great, because I'd say, look, man, about 13 grand is what you could get a kilo for then on the border. He said, man, so if I got 10 of them up here for 13, I'm like, no, that's not going to cost 13 up here.
There's a reason the kilo costs 25 to 30 grand up here, because somebody has to get it from the border to here. Now, if you want to drive down the border and buy 10 for 13 apiece, and you risk taking them back over, but... So we let it be known that I had some cartel. Of course, they knew I had cartel contacts, and we started introducing those.
Some cameo undercovers came in, unbelievable people, and we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection. There was going to be a drug shipment coming in, and my crew was going to be delivering it to another crew, and we needed protection. And we did it in Brockton, and several outlaws hopped in on it. The issue was this. At least one of the big issues.
Pretty much that case, I had a great time. Yes, it's violent, and my mentality was changing. There is a podcast that's a series that's going to be coming out with the book, and they actually interview one of the task force officers who was over me on that case, on the outlaws. And I remember him calling me. He's like, hey, what can I say? I said, tell them the truth.
I said, I want to know what you were thinking. I know what I was thinking. And it was really, really surreal to hear him talking about he could see my personality changing. He could see, and like the FBI office might be saying, we want him to patch. And he was over here fighting, going, hell no. We're getting everything we need now. If he patches, then they can order him to do shit.
And it was just really cool to hear that. But essentially for the case, it was me, an FBI case agent, and two task force officers. We had Detective Joe Cummins from Brockton PD, Sergeant Higginbottom from the Massachusetts State Troopers, and then an agent with the FBI. And that was it. I mean, they would add some here and there, but for two years, that was it. It was us.
So now we get to this point to where we're like, man, let's do this drug protection. And the assistant United States attorney was like, hey, if you're going to be at the clubhouse, do they talk about this at the clubhouse? We're like, yeah. And he goes, well, that would be awesome if we could get that recorded because it helps, right, to show what they're planning on doing.
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Chapter 7: How does one maintain an undercover identity?
So they tell me what happened was – They pulled close enough. They heard everything. They're suiting up. They have radioed now because it's kind of the beginning of the shift. They've radioed now back to Boston. Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to the hauling ass to Taunton, Massachusetts.
So I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. We went through the FBI Academy together. And that night, again, I'm still shell shocked. He says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on. I felt like I was in there with you. And I looked at him and I said, you weren't.
I said, cause I was looking for any friendly face I could find. And that's damn whole. But, uh, so, uh, That night, we haven't talked about my family. I try not, well, I take it back. In the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended, 911 hangups, stuff like that.
But at that point in time, I'd bought my wife, everybody's pretty familiar now with the burner phone, but I'd bought my wife a phone that came back to nothing so my undercover phone could call that phone, not violating the operational security. Right. That night, Joe, when I called her, I always call her every night. And again, five, seven in the morning, didn't matter.
And it might just be she wakes up and says, hello. And I go, hey, I just want you to know I'm done heading back to the hotel room. Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I'll call you. It might be that quick. That night when I called her, the first thing she said to me was, are you OK? She felt it. I said, yeah, why?
Whew.
So say what you will, but damn. Wow. Yeah. Apparently my old shit signal. Apparently I don't need Verizon or anything because it went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas. But it's just... I mean, that's just one of the little, one of the things that happen and it just takes a toll on you over time. I can only imagine. Yeah, so I'll get you to the next day. We do the deal.
Clothesline doesn't show up. Well, that pisses me off. Wait a minute, you're supposed to be my boy and you took me into the damn basement and stripped me at gunpoint, but you can't come up, you don't show up the next day and help with this thing? Again, I'm taking it personally, I shouldn't. So everybody knew there was a beef. Let's just fast forward a month or two. I go back home.
Yeah.
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Chapter 8: What are the psychological impacts of undercover work?
And it's good to know that you're not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the same thing you are. And there's a lot of bonding that goes on there. But that means for 10 days, I'm not getting a whole lot of sleep. And I've probably got too much alcohol in my system, if we're being transparent.
But then I leave straight from that undercover school and I go right into an undercover. And let's just say I land in Sturgis, which I did. And the Hells Angels shoot five outlaws at point blank range. My first day there. Like I hadn't been in town like an hour. Now, there's two old ladies, two patch members, and a probate, but they're all shot. They confirmed it was Hell's Angels.
We're talking paralyzed from the waist down for life. We're talking crushed clavicles. I mean, not just like a zinger. And now you're back doing that for days on end. And when I would get home, I would stop taking care of myself. I got to the point to where I was a walking zombie. I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. I was taking hydroxy cuts like crazy.
making the strongest coffee I could possibly make. And I'd drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep. So what I learned through the book process, even though I'd learned a lot already, I found out from my wife, I was a ghost, man. I'd come home from SWAT, work, undercover, whatever. I'd be on the couch and my daughters would be on my lap. I'd help put them to bed.
But my wife couldn't even ask me a simple question about The bills. You know, hey, there's this bill. Do whatever you got. I can't think. I just need to. And she wanted to do everything she could to support me and just let me veg and not put anything on my plate. So we get to the end of the outlaw case, and I'm starting to crash. Didn't know it.
If you are a certified undercover and you are active in the FBI, you mandatorily have to be psychologically assessed for, Twice a year. That whole thing is called Safeguard. I'm not outing anything. It's out there. It's on the Internet. But the Safeguard process was created by Joe Pistone. Donnie Brasco.
It was created by Joe and a former agent who was – his background was a clinical psychologist, Steve Bann. And they came up with this because Joe – you got to remember when Joe was undercover, there was no attorney general guidelines. There probably wasn't even an operational procedure manual for undercovers. It was like – Here's money. Here's your recorders. Go make a case.
He was one of the first 25 undercovers in the FBI in 1972. That happened right after Hoover left. Hoover did not believe in the undercover technique. But as soon as he was out, they started working undercover. But the safeguard process goes like you take a bunch of psychological tests. And then you're going to sit down. You're going to take a break.
It's going to put a bunch of numbers into some charts. You're going to sit down with a clinical psychologist. They may be an agent for the FBI or they may be contracted in. They're going to go over all that stuff with you. They're going to dive deep into your psyche. Try to. And then after that, you're going to sit down with somebody like a Pistone or an experienced undercover.
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