Scott Payne
Appearances
Aftermath: Hunt for the Anthrax Killer
Episode 4: Machine 17
I have never had to burn Bibles. I have never had to burn an American flag. And I damn sure was never with a group of people that stole a goat, sacrificed it in a pagan ritual, and drank its blood. And I did all that in about three days with these guys.
Aftermath: Hunt for the Anthrax Killer
Episode 3: Anthrax This!
I have never had to burn Bibles. I have never had to burn an American flag. And I damn sure was never with a group of people that stole a goat, sacrificed it in a pagan ritual, and drank its blood. And I did all that in about three days with these guys.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
He takes the 20, and then he yells at me to roll the window down because he can't hand me the dope through the window. So I started getting that bug. And I started learning. But to the question you asked, I hope it's changed now. I still teach at narcotics officers associations and conferences. I need to ask this question at the next one. But you come in as a fresh face.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So as a fresh face, you can go by on the corners, hop in with the source. But after a while, that's your county or your city. You go to court. Before long, everybody knows. It's on. Now you have the wisdom and you can make great cases in that unit, but a lot of times they'll kick you out to bring in a fresh face, but that fresh face has no experience working this stuff.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So you got to have some kind of transition or oversight. Once I got in the FBI and I learned about the undercover program, you get certified and we can go anywhere.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I remember sitting with my sergeant on the surveillance. He was a Southern Command narcotic, Sergeant Kellett, former Marine, Fu Manchu, looked like a bulldog, built like a bulldog. I think he even had a bulldog on his arm. Sure. He was committed.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Maybe. Hey, Big Red. That's right. Roll Tide.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Roll Tide. He always tries to do that. I always cut it. We can throw in the Tennessee Vols and throw in a Gator. Oh, no. Now we'll be all throwing down.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, I know, right? I'm sitting with him one day and he says, hey, my nickname at that point was Kingpin. He goes, Kingpin, I was your age. I had a degree and I was single. Man, I'd apply with the FBI and I'd put New York as my first office. And I was like, what in the hell is wrong? Like, are you kidding me? Really? I only thought the FBI worked like bank robberies.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I didn't know they worked drugs and everything else. I started doing research and I applied with them first because I was told they were the hardest to get hired by back then. I never got a chance to fill out DEAs or the marshals or anybody else. So it just kept going. I would pass phase one and then it's lie detectors and physical fitness.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So I go to Quantico. It's 98. I leave the sheriff's office. Are you married yet or anything? No. You have nothing tying you down? Got a bass hand on the truck. Okay. I found out two months in that I was going to New York City. I started meeting NYPD cops. They're like, what do you drive? I go stick shift, standard cab, four by four truck. with a shotgun rack, and I got a bassy.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'm like, oh, you're not coming up here with that. I go, yeah, I am. So I lived right on the river in Jersey. I was just north of the Empire State Building. Back then, I smoked cigarettes, and every night at midnight, I'd be out there letting my dog out smoking a cigarette and watch the lights cut off on the top. Yeah, that's the view. It's very surreal.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So I start working there, and then I land this classified case. and I get approved to be the undercover. After about 30 to 90 days, I became the primary, which means now I'm there full-time. They ended up writing me in for a specialty transfer because we didn't know how long this undercover was going to go on. And that's how I got down to McAllen, Texas.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Once that was over, then I got a slot in the undercover school.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
There's a large four, but they're at the top. The Vargo? It usually goes Hells Angels, Outlaws— maybe pagans after that. And I'm trying to remember, I think Mongols are small.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'm sorry, Bandidos are huge. It's probably Hells Angels, Outlaws, Bandidos, pagans.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They're for real. I would say it depends on the chapter, but yes.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You do. Usually the bylaws would say six months, but. because of law enforcement infiltration. I've heard of some say you got to be a hang around for two years before you can even prospect or probate. And then that's going to be a year process. So now you've got three years in it before you're even wearing a patch. Yeah. So how?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
It was a different thought process because I am not knocking anybody who's gained a patch. My ego wanted the patch. Of course. I would love to have that cut hanging. But here's what I can tell you. There have been hundreds, of law enforcement officers who have patched into biker clubs. 1% are biker clubs. And a lot of times the cases didn't work.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You're a pro. If you go as far back in all the writings I've read, just like you've read, 70s, 80s, you see that kind of stuff, but the patch is your cut. So you're going to have a top rocker, and that's going to say Outlaws MC or Hells Angels MC.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And then the middle piece is going to be the death head for Hells Angels, or it's going to be Charlie for the Outlaws, which is two cross pistons and a skull. They refer to the skull as Charlie. Then you have your bottom rocker. That bottom rocker is generally your state. So that's when you start getting into stuff territory-wise. It's not your chapter. It's your state? State. Like Boston.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Boston was weird because Boston and south of Boston was outlaw territory. Boston and north of Boston was Hells Angels territory.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So you get into big areas like that or Florida. Florida has warlocks.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, it's a big state. I mean, it's a great riding state with great weather. And also a good three-way for drugs and criminal activity. Yeah, yeah. A lot of meth out here. You got a lot of stuff going on. Not saying they all do it, but just saying. So how did you get ingratiated? What? I ended up doing. And trust me, in the case, there were multiple chances to patch.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I was pleaded by certain members to, hey man, just get a PO box up here. You come in here, man, you patch. This is me in the clubhouse on recording with the doors locked. And I'm like, I'm very humbled by that. That means so much to me. I said, but why would I subject myself to six months of bullshit? Yeah. I'm not going to be sleeping.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'm going to go around with my fanny pack with the go kit, which usually includes condoms, tampons, cigarettes, lighters, knives, bullets, drugs. Everything they don't want to carry. You calling me at three in the morning to haze me to tell me to change the oil on your bike or go wash your bike. And then I stand on this side of the bar serving you guys all weekend, not being able to drink.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And then when I do drink, I got to pay for it when I'm sitting here drinking for free right now. Uh-huh. And they were like, wait a minute. I said, listen, I'm not trying to piss you off. This is what we did. I came up with a legend. The team agreed. I'm a site survey specialist parlaying off of my landscaping background. I travel the country for investors looking at property to buy.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
That's my legit reason for being there. Then I start seeing their criminal activity, and then I let them see me doing some criminal activity. And they believed that I was a high-ranking member of an international theft ring based out of McAllen, Texas, and I moved stolen goods to Mexico to the cartel to trade for whatever, even if it's just money. But everything I was doing was factually based.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They could have looked it up. I was working with Texas Department of Public Safety. I was working with Border Patrol. I knew how much dirty law enforcement officers were being paid, $5,000 to $15,000 to let a car go through. Everything I did was factual. And then they were making money off of me. So we were getting everything we needed for the case.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I can't say a lot because of Tradecraft. There's still undercovers out there trying to do this. There are ways. that I can partake in criminal activity. Well, let's just use what we did. They started reporting vehicles stolen. So you're going to get your insurance money. Now you got to get rid of the vehicle.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You sell it to me at a stolen price, and you believe that I'm taking them south to Mexico. And they believe that I'm doing criminal activity with them. Right, because you are making shit disappear. But then it becomes, I got your trust. Now you've carjacked a vehicle. Now you're just stealing F-350s off of a lot. So then they called me and they go, hey, Tex, which is what they called me.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Not very original. I'm from Texas. And they're like, I got a redneck accent. Tex, hey, we got this hot car, man. We got to get rid of it. We just jacked this dude at gunpoint. We almost killed him. All right, I got it, man. I'll get rid of it. That's how it all started playing. What was the results of that case? The Taunton chapter was pretty much disbanded. And 12 to 15, went to jail.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
How long were you in that one? Two years. That was my longest one. Two years.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The way I usually answer questions kind of around that same realm is this. Look, in law enforcement, it's what you do. Let's go back to the county or the city you work in. How many arrests have you made in a year? They're already out of jail. Are you not running into them at the grocery store? Right. Are you not running at them at target?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So for me personally, my best defense has always been a good offense. If I see you and I'm like, hey, holy cow, man, how are you doing? I haven't seen you in forever, man. You on the up and up? How's the family?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
There are a lot of people out there who know. and I cover it well in the book, that Scott town. It is the closest relationship I've built with a possible target on any case I've ever done.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'll play a clip. from that movie when I'm teaching just undercover stuff. And it's the one where he's in the car and he's saying, if you're a rat and he takes the pistol and he goes, I'm the biggest mutt in the history of mafia. I play that because that's when I get into the point of saying, what is undercover? What do you think it is?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I've asked some people, I mean, I'll ask you, when you hear undercover, what does it mean to you? Gaining trust.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
That's very good. Usually I'll get like lying or you're playing a character. You're acting. I'm building relationships that I'm going to betray.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And you need to be able to figure out how you can rationalize that in your mind. And it not have an adverse impact on your psyche. And it's not always easy. And I'm human. I've done the training. I've been through the training. I've put on the training. I've got mentors, peers, people that I've been blessed to mentor. But I've made plenty of mistakes.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah. And this book, again, you got to dive deep. All the interviews I've been doing, it's emotionally exhausting.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Well, it's not so much that because I am a talker. I think the Lord put me here to feel silence with noise. That's what I think. When it's quiet, I'm like... Why is it so quiet in here?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, no. Well, I can pass the baton to you, but somebody better be talking. Yeah, it's tough.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I've never heard it put that way. That is a great way to say it. I'm probably going to permanently borrow it from this point forward. But yeah, that's kind of what you're doing. Now, I want to be clear because some people are, haters might be like, well, if you look, every case you've arrested everybody, you set everything up. That's not what I mean by controlling the room.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
If you're committing criminal acts and you're predicated, I'm not coming up to you not knowing you and going, hey, I know you're broke. I'll give you 40 grand if you carry this kilo across the street. That's entrapment. You can't do that. But when I tell you, they go, where are you from? And I go, McAllen, Texas, right on the border. No shit. How much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
That's the next sentence out of your head.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Well, as a matter of fact. Now that you ask.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Well, think of it this way. And I permanently borrowed this term from a buddy of mine, Terry Rankine. Phenomenal undercover. He's retired as well, too. Helped certify me, actually. But he says, look, we're playing chess. People think, oh, I'm just out there gift-a-gabbing, and I'm drinking, I'm flying first, I'm doing whatever. No, man, it's a chess game. We are trying to stay four moves ahead.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You're reading the room, and it still doesn't work all the time. That's how I ended up in a basement at gunpoint. Please tell Monica that.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I was too. I guess that's a universal fear, being in a basement with a gun.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
As I say a lot of times when I'm teaching, I go, I would much rather have heard that story about somebody else and go, man, that sucks, than to be standing there naked going, this sucks.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So I told you a little bit of the backstory with the outlaws. There's carjack stuff. We've now covered dope deals. The case team's up on wiretaps, which is not like TV, by the way. You don't go, I need to be on this phone in five minutes. No, we're talking like 80-page affidavits, weeks and weeks, not months of prep. Anyway, all that stuff was happening.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So now we're at a point in the case, a year and a half in, and these are my friends. Scott Towns, a great friend. Brian De La Vega, clothesline, is a good friend.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Joe Dogs is the president of the Taunton chapter at that time, and he's a friend. And everything after that kind of trickles down. But we are now to the point, they've been hounding me about dope. We've laid out breadcrumbs. They have now seen my truck drivers come on multiple occasions to pick up stolen equipment, take it somewhere. They think we're taking it to Mexico.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
We're actually taking it to a warehouse somewhere. And we decide as a case team, United States Attorney's Office, all of us, okay, now's the time. They've been asking about it. We've got the predication, this, that, and the other. So let's lay out. My story was that, yes, I did used to be involved in a dope game because they know I have cartel contacts.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And they know that the reason I never got cut out as a gringo, the white guy, is because I'm the one with the contacts at the port of entry and the checkpoints. So without me, you can't get your stuff through. That was my story. So I lay breadcrumbs and let them know that, yes, I did used to be in the dope game, but some of my people were getting popped. Heat was getting close. I pulled chocks.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Then we laid it out that my contacts reached out to me because they wanted to take dope into Canada. But their contacts up there had fell through. And essentially, we're going to do a drug exchange from one truck to another truck. We did have 40 kilos of real cocaine. We had 1,000 pounds of real weed. And this is 2017. 40 kilos. Oh, my God. Now, can you imagine?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Do you think there's a SWAT team overseeing this? Do you think there's snipers on the roof? Yes, because we cannot let 40 kilos walk. We cannot get ripped if the bad guys decide to go even more bad and say, 40 kilos, let's take it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The government seizes all this cocaine.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
To each their own. Look at this contraband being burned.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
We'll save one sample. We're going to do the deal. And the U.S. Attorney's Office, of course, we want to gather as much evidence as we can of who's going to be helping and get the recordings and all that stuff. So I go to the clubhouse the night before the deal. A weird exchange happens at the beginning between me and Joe Dawgs because he's the one that told me to come.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And then I get there and they're still having church. And for the listeners that don't know, Especially in your 1%er clubs, there's usually a mandatory meeting once a week, and they refer to that as church. It's kind of a cute rebrand. It is cute. It's still going on, and I'm like, well, why'd you even tell me to come? So I go, get something to eat, come back, and then I go in.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Well, what I don't know is that because we have upped the ante to do this big deal, it made it all the way to the top to the national president, who was Milwaukee Jack at that point, of the outlaws. And he sends it back down. Wait a minute. Why has this deal happened? Who is this guy? Has he really been checked?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I find out again later on that clothesline and others were like, yeah, I mean, we've done like eight jobs with this guy. Carjacking, stolen vehicle here, moving this here. None of us are in bracelets, meaning handcuffs. We think he's good. Doesn't matter. Do what you do.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
so I didn't know that and I show up to the clubhouse wired to the hilt because I'm trying to get evidence that's what we do so you have a little camera somewhere on you somewhere I've got video and audio and then I have a backup audio and then I have a transmitter oh no hey This is so stressful.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, well, here's the thing. So we're talking again, 2007-ish. Just think of how much technology has changed between now and then.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
No. Well, people think generally we can do more than we can anyway because of TV. But technology is way better now. So let's just say I had technology of 2007.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So I go into the clubhouse, and I'm cracking jokes. But what I don't see is when I'm cracking jokes, if I'm leaning this way, and I'm looking down the bar, and I'm doing my normal shtick, and I'm cracking country-ass jokes in my accent, and everybody's like, we're all laughing, high-fiving. When I would turn my head, they would go complete stone face. Because they know what they're doing.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Their whole meeting was about bringing me in and checking me. I didn't pick up on it. And there was a false alarm. They took me down into the basement, but I'll just get to the part. They carried me down. Clothesline, who's supposed to be my second closest friend, says, yo, Tex, you got a minute? And I said, yeah.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
He walks me through this door that I'd never been in, even though I've been in that clubhouse I don't know how many times. It's the only door I hadn't been through. And it leads into a very tight stairwell down into a, if I call it a basement, that's being generous because I couldn't stand up straight. It's more of a crawl space. And I could touch the wall probably on both sides. I see rope.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I see that they have both brandished their pistols. One outlaw follows me and he stands on the steps with his pistol and he's watching. And clothesline proceeds to tell me, there's a lot of shit going on, and it's my job to take care of my brothers. Because I want you to write down your full name, date of birth, social security, everything. And I need you to take all your clothes off.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I need to check you for a wire. I hate this. Yeah, me too.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I would love to say yes to that answer, but I was shitting gold. I was having an adrenaline dump. It's the fight or flight or freeze. Yeah, midbrain is in charge. And then you are hopefully doing what you've trained or rehearsed in your head, and that's what I did. If I had not seen me do these things on the video, I would have never known I did them.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
But just like I can show you cops and military first responders in shootouts, they have no idea how many rounds they shot. They have no idea that they did a magazine exchange behind effective cover. They just do it because they've trained it so much and it's instinctive.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So in the undercover world, okay, now I'm down there. I'm trying to write my name down. If you've ever been through a traumatic incident, whether it's a car wreck or whatever, everything just slows down. And your auditory exclusion, everything's going whoosh, whoosh. What I'm hearing is like, Scott, I need you. I've even had sight get minimal. So that happens. You're getting the tunnel vision.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah. And everything's time dilation. It's in clicks. It's like in frames, right?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You go click. Click, click. You can hear and feel your heart beating through your entire body. Palms are sweaty. I'm starting an Eminem song here.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Nice lot, by the way. Oh, thank you. It's so funny because I live in hill country. Or even if you're down in South Carolina around Charleston, it's just trees and green. So you don't even know what's on the other side of that hedge. You turn the corner and you're like, oh my gosh, it's like four malls and everything else.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'm trying to talk and I'm trying to write my name and I forgot my middle name. I've been this dude forever. I know. I know I'm Scott Callaway. But because of the stress, I don't even know. And I was blessed enough to put this training on to some Navy SEALs. And one of the SEALs caught it and he said, man, if you look, your hand's not even shaking the entire time.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You're trying to remember your name. And I'm like, well, my insides were shaking. And I yell back. I'm like, and what else do you need? I don't even know I do it. And he's like, what? I go, my name and what else? It didn't sound that clear though. Because I'm crapping myself, it sounds like, what else do you need? My name and what else? I'm not even enunciating.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
He yells up and I hear, what do you need for that website? So I'm like, okay, they're going to Google search me. There was a whoserap.com. There was things like that. And I go, okay, I'm going to cool with that. Then I remember my initials were SAC because that is the head of an FBI office. And I thought that was funny because I know I'd never be one.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
A little humor for myself. But I remember Scott Andrew Calloway. So I write that down. I take all my upper clothing off. I probably was layered because it was cold. I take my boots off. I pull my underwear and jeans down to my ankles. So from ankle up, I'm naked. And it was cold. Sure. And you were scared. Wasn't your best showing is my guess. I'm not attracted to you.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I feel like I'm possibly getting ready to die. In the Terms of a Seinfeld episode, that was a whole different level of shrinkage.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I know. I don't care what I look like right now. I just want to get out of here. So I take all my clothes off and he checks everything. I'm trying to talk. I know clotheslines for a year and a half at this point. Even though my words aren't saying it, my face is saying, tell me I'm okay. And his face back to me is kind of like, look, it's just business.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
However, he doesn't know that I'm an FBI agent undercover who's wired to the hill.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
We're going to get through this. And these are his words exactly. I think they even quoted in the press release after the takedown. He said, trust me, if somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the effing mouth. And I said, I'm not happy. And he said, I wouldn't be either. And I tell him, you guys asked for this. I did not come to you. You came to me.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
That's what I picture here because you see a fence and you don't know and you go, oh man, you got a nice size lot. It's good.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
If nobody wants to do shit, nobody has to do shit. Those are my exact words. Not as clear as that because I'm crapping my pants.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Some yes, some no. Tradecraft, I won't say where or how.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And when he grabs it, I'm like, oh. When he grabs it, he goes, hey, I'm not going to find anything here I don't want to, right? Like some naked pictures of my old lady. And he goes, ha, ha, ha. And my laugh is like, ha, ha, ha.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I even say, I hope not. Now I'm sitting here up against the wall, my head tilted. And I'm watching him take this piece of clothing and go through it. We call this kneading. He's kneading it with his hands. And he's feeling it. I'll just say this. Technology-wise in 2007, had he grabbed that part of that clothing, he would have felt something. And he gets close. And he even looks directly at...
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
a camera and misses it. When he's doing that, I have no idea I do it, but you can hear clear on the recording me watching him and I go, it's a verbal sigh because my insides are saying, it's over. He misses it. He hands it back to me and I go right into business, but it's just nervous chatter, joking. Even though I'm a jokester anyway, it's definitely a self-defense mechanism.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I feel like I can't breathe. PTSD is kicking in and people ask all the time, Hey, man, what would you have said if you had found it? And I remember it like it was yesterday. My first response probably would have been something funny. If he would have said, what is this? I might have said, I don't know, some naked pictures of your old lady to try to buy me some time or to laugh it off.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The only other response I had is the gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court. or all hell's going to break loose. And here's the kicker. That would have been a bluff on my part because up until that point, to my knowledge, my cover team, for whatever reason, thick walls, bad equipment, they could never hear me in that clubhouse.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You always try to plan contingencies. Contingency plan A, B, C, D, four or five moves ahead. But he didn't find it. He hands it back to me. And that night, my adrenaline dump just turns into anger. I end up going out with Joe Dawgs and Scott Town. And luckily, they didn't take it personally or anything, but I took it personally. And I shouldn't have because I'm just undercover.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Now that adrenaline's coming down, I'm like, you know what? Tomorrow, if y'all do show up, I'm stripping you naked in the parking lot. How's that? Come prepared. It's going to be chilly.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yes. Those are my friends. What's it called? It's called Flat Rock. I was there. It wasn't a grand opening, but we went out there. So I've helped Red Bull racing a lot. My friends are really connected with the nitro circuit. So we went out there when it was just dirt, but it's a big deal. The owner got jammed up on a hit and run. Oh, recently? Yeah, leaving the scene drunk. Oh, no.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, that's the same thing I would have done as Scott Payne. Who do you think you are taking me into a damn basement? Even though they were right, I wasn't undercover.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, you didn't have the moral high ground.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
There's some crazy things about that story. There's great training principles to everything that was going on. Because what I found out when I hand off my equipment that night, is that they did hear everything. The main case team was an FBI agent named Tim. He was a good buddy of mine.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
We actually went through the academy together as new agents, and we were really close friends through that whole process. He helped me find my apartment in New York City. So Tim's now the case agent. Two task force officers, Sergeant Higginbottom with the Massachusetts State Troopers, and Detective Joe Cummings out of Brockton PD. That was the main case team.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
We had a DEA counterpart, Nancy Morelli, but that was pretty much it. You might get some bodies here and there, but everybody trickles off. It's just, that's the core team. That night, starting the shift, it was Higgy and Joe. And that first interaction that happened between me and Joe, dogs at the door, they were like, something's not right. And they pulled in a place to where they could hear me.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And they were listening to everything. They radioed back to everybody else that was starting the shift in Boston and said they got Scott in the basement. They're stripping him and he's wired. To what I was told is everybody's hauling tail with blue lights and sirens down the highway together. to me.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They listened to me, even though they could clearly hear I was scared because they knew my baseline. They were waiting for something to break back. They knew the insides of that clubhouse because they'd been there on law enforcement activity. They knew how fortified the door was. It was deadbolted. I think it was a steel frame. They definitely had welded metal hooks and a steel bar across the door.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So it's heavily fortified. Their plan was they suited up, vested up, got their gear, and they were going to drive the van into the cinder block wall beside the door to breach around the door versus the door. But they listened to me, and I make it out.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The other thing that, if I get personal, because I'm very transparent, and I always say my life's an open book, and literally, it now is an open book. At that point in my marriage, our youngest daughter was around one. So three and one years old, I got two daughters. And I'd bought my wife a burner phone, which is common these days, but back then they didn't call them burner phones.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
But I'm basically buying a phone that I pay by the minute, comes back to nothing because I don't want to call her phone from an undercover phone. You don't want to call an FBI phone from an undercover phone. That's terrible operational security. So I bought her that on that outlaws case. I would call her every night. I don't care if it was four in the morning, seven in the morning.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'd be like, hey, babe, I'm half lit. I'm driving home to a hotel. Just wanted you to know I'm good. I'll call you after I wake up. Sometimes we'd talk. Usually it was, okay, honey, love you, love you too. That night when I called her, the first thing she said was, is are you okay? And I said, yes, why? Barely. And she said, at such and such time, I was in McAllen driving with the girls in the car.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
She said, I got this overwhelming feeling. And I pulled over on the side of the road and I started praying for you. So I matched it up. It's when I was in the basement getting stripped. Wow. The Spidey senses were traveling across the universe. Holy Spirit in my world. I was in Boston. Look on a map, Boston to McAllen. That's a long way away from each other. She felt it. I believe that.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I mean, you only run if you're drunk. I think I hit something. Well, should we stop and check? Should we do a little double check? Should we find out? Maybe a little reverse.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, it was insane. That's just one of the many things that happened on that case.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Man, there's been several. I did joke with her after this book and doing these interviews and stuff. I go, I feel like I need to have a couple more life-threatening experiences. I'm running out of stories to tell.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The original one was six episodes, White Hot Hate, that covered the group The Base. That's before we ever met. She didn't know me, but I heard it because people were sending it to me.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So when I retire— And then I get the chance to be interviewed by Rolling Stone. Ashley Mack and her crew back in Canada were like, oh my gosh, this is him.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
We got six episodes called White Hot Hate, Agent Pale Horse. But I will say, it plays like a documentary.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
CBC, that's Canadian. Canada Broadcasting, Communique.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They actually interview Higgy, the task force officer who was sitting outside and observed me. And he said, hey, man, what can I say? I said, you tell them the truth. I know my experience, but I want to hear yours. It was surreal to hear him.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Could have. A lot of people ask, what do you think would have happened? I'm like, I don't know. If you ask them now, they'd be like, oh, nothing. We found out that's a normal MO from them. We found out from other people who were victims, females, they brought down into that same crawl space and held a knife to their throat and threatened to kill them.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
People have been killed in that crawl space for sure. Probably. Who knows? Don't sue me, outlaws. I didn't see plastic on the floor. I did look for that. Anyway, I'm sorry to get off on a tangent. Back on the outlaws.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
but explain the base sure and this is big teaching stuff now because even in law enforcement when people hear white supremacy they might know aryan nation they might know kkk for sure because it's been around for so long but that's not this they're neo-nazis so they want hitler's germany back they want the white race on top the rundown goes like this the garden of eden the story in the beginning of the bible adam and eve you got
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
One tree you can't eat the fruit from, the fruit of the forbidden tree. Eve is tempted by the serpent, aka Satan. She takes a bite of the fruit. She gets Adam to take a bite of the fruit, and we're sinners from then on.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Christian Identity takes it and says, same story, but the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act, and the serpent is actually a man of color, aka Satan, and they have that sexual act. and she gets pregnant with Cain. Once Cain is born, they consider that the mud race, non-white mud race, all the way down. But Adam and Eve did procreate, and that's Abel, and that's the pure white race.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
No, because when you get a chance to transfer in the FBI, you go to the headquarters division. I don't know what the RAs out of LA are, but let's just say you're in Tennessee. Yeah. It was Knoxville's headquarter city. But out of Knoxville, you've got Chattanooga as a resident agency, their satellite offices. We had one at Oak Ridge for a while. We got Johnson City.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
No, it's older. As far as I know, the real push came with Reverend Butler, and he was the leader of the Aryan Nation. And that was back when the Red Ray Fair, and in all those days, they wore their uniform. It was Church of Jesus Christ Christian, but they take it and twist it, much like a lot of your newer age accelerationists, which I'll talk about here in just a second.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They're taking paganism, and they're switching it. I've got plenty of close friends that are pagans. They have a pagan belief. I mean, you see, I've got Viking stuff all over my arm. The real and Norse shit. Yeah, and so was Hitler. But they take that and twist it. They're not doing the traditional pagan block. They're doing horrific white supremacy stuff.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Could be. It's evolved. There was a whole movement called, and it's still out there, it's called entryism. And that's where you see clean-cut white guys, no tattoos, suits and ties, but they're acting like they're trying to infiltrate government. There's like Proud Boy-y type stuff? Mm, Proud Boy just like to beat people up. Proud Boys not white supremacy.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Proud Boys are anti-government, pro-gun, and they like to fight. I've done a lot of militia cases I didn't put in the book because I didn't know if they were still going. I didn't want to jeopardize anything. Nor would the FBI have approved it anyway. So accelerationism goes like this. They do not believe that there is a political solution to save the white race.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They believe that society is going to collapse on its own or from man-made events, and they want to speed that up through, like, guerrilla warfare tactics like poison a water system, derail a train, take out a power grid, start killing anti-fascist belief people, start killing lefties, and definitely killing Jewish people and ridding the world of non-whites.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
A lot of these white supremacy groups I was in, there was no 23andMe being done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I wouldn't pass that.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yusef Barazna, yeah. Okay. I mean, that's curious. He didn't tell everybody his name was Yusef. Oh, my God. But accelerationists, they don't like any government. It's almost like dark white supremacy meets militia anti-government.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Because we're out there training with machine guns, well, submachine guns, not fully automatic, and pistols, doing firearms and tactics training, hand-to-hand combat, how to live off the land, to prepare for what they were calling the boogaloo. Not exactly the same Boogaloo that's in the militia movement, but close. Boogaloo is basically D-Day. It's the start of the race war.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And they are building kits to do that. A lot of them didn't have jobs. I have read some responses. It's like, my kid had a job. Yeah, he worked on and off for you. And he hated it. He told me for seven months he hated it. He didn't have an arsenal. He only had one gun. That's BS. He had plenty of guns. I was with him when he sold them on arms list to other people and bought other guns.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So Columbia in South Carolina is the headquarter city. I was raised in the upstate, and I also lived and played ball and bounced down in Charleston. So for me, I either want the mountains or I want the beach. because no offense to anybody who loves it there, but we call it the armpit of South Carolina because that's the hottest point.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
But let's not just talk about the guns. Let's talk about plate carriers.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So it's your bulletproof vest, but the plate carrier, the plate stops rifle rounds. So they're ordering cry-precision plate carriers. It's the same thing the FBI SWAT's wearing. Oh, my God. And I'm like, that's some expensive shit.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Literally, I could have taken my FBI rig that I'm going out to make an arrest on and just take the FBI stuff off, and I would have walked in there and it would have been the same stuff a lot of them were wearing. The gun belts, everything. So they're preparing for D-Day, and there's not a lot of forethought or afterthought, as you kind of commented on.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So we take over a region of the Appalachian Mountains, while another section of the base has taken over a region of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, while another region of the base has taken over Pacific Northwest property. And we're going to create our own ethnostate. Because clearly, if we make it all white, everything will run smoothly.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'll tell you what I did. My sense of humor, I've got to have. So I'm like, so we're neo-Nazis. Hell yeah, man. Hell yeah, man. So we want Hitler's Germany. Yeah, man. It's basically socialism because we're getting everything for free. I didn't word it that way. But what I do is at the end of it, I go, so who's going to be Hitler? and the faces go blank. And I'm like, getting thought that far?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Who's it gonna be? It can only be one. Just to mess with it. Sure, sure. Because there were belief systems. I've listened to them go on for hours about concave earth, Hitler's still alive, and hollow earth with, it's not a Garthens, there's something else. I just start tuning it out. How do you learn the lingo? Well, sometimes I let them teach me. Let that ego roll.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Let's say you're questioning me and you're pressuring me. Well, where do you live? What are you doing in Texas with a New Jersey driver's license? What are you doing? I'm like, man, what are you doing? Writing a book? I don't know. Y'all just met you.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Look, I mean, you seem like you're a nice gal, but I'm not ready to invite you over to tea and crumb. It's just shit. But then I just turn it. What's that bar on your collar mean? Oh, that means I'm a lieutenant. I thought you said you only been here for like a year. Yeah. You made lieutenant in a year? How? That dude's talking for the next two hours.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Well, let me tell you about how I've done when I come in. Oh, my. I'm a talker, and I know that. So in order for me to be better at my job as an undercover, I've got to shut the F up, or else I'm talking over you giving us evidence. The base was huge on recruiting. A lot of these accelerationist groups are huge on recruiting, and they do it by flyering or stickering or postering.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
It's like we go down the street and on the way back, one spray in the glue, you're slapping it on there and it'll be like, join the base, save your race. Save your race, join the base. It'll have a picture of a swastika and like a SS and then a helmet and maybe like a skull face and then there'll be a QR code.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You scan that QR code, it takes you straight to a bitch shoot site and it's a recruitment video of us and I'm in a lot of them. Like us doing the trainings in Georgia, or it might be training up in Badax, Michigan. And it's gun shooting and music playing and running to recruit.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yes, and here's what's funny. The base in Arabic is Al-Qaeda. Wow. When I was being interviewed to join the group, they laid out their ideology. And that's when I learned the whole accelerationist view. Huge, they call it siege culture. There's a book out there called Siege. Don't go by it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
long yeah don't go try to buy it james mason wrote the book it's a lot of interviews and articles just shoved together but this dude idolized charles manson he's interviewed him several times because manson ultimately thought there would be a race war as well and he was trying to accelerate that yep and that's where you start seeing the ideology of acceleration of them as don't do charlottesville don't go out there and stand on the corner with picket signs screaming number one you're making yourself a mark number two you're not doing anything let's go behind the scenes
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Let's start mowing this down. Let's start killing people. Let's do this to cause the collapse of society and chaos.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Kill thousands, scare millions. But if you looked at Al-Qaeda, it was three to five man cells. I've got a country accent, C-L-L, cells. They wanted three to five man cells all over the world. ready for that phone call. So as I'm being coached by the leader and creator of the base, he says, we want three to five man cells all over the world waiting.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
That's where University of South Carolina is at, but I didn't really care about going back to Greenville, even though I love it. That's where I grew up.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I mean, we had members from Norway, South Africa, Australia, the UK, Canada. You just keep going.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The maskers. It's an active shooter, but it's an active shooter with the ideology of setting off the race war. It's the saint leaderboard. Usually in the tactical world, we never say their names.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, I think that's good. Because we don't want to give them credit. The Christchurch shooter, he's not at the top. The one that did the Norway shooting is at the top. It's like 77 and 0. And then you get Christ Church is this and 0. And then you get down to the Tree of Life.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The Tree of Life massacre in Pittsburgh. Then you get Charleston. You see that these are all related.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
This is a syndicate. And then it says at the bottom, what are you going to do to make the board? Stop it. Yeah.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
While I was infiltrating these groups, I've watched an active shooter event happen and the kid only got one shot off and then his gun jammed. And the ridicule that you read on Telegram and these dark channels, Discord, 4chan, 8chan, 12chan, you name it, Wire, Threema, whatever else is out there now, they are blasting them. What an idiot. He didn't know how to handle his weapon.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
He could have killed so many more people. Now, see, in America, though, you can blast that. That's the First Amendment protected speech. You can say, I hate any racial slur you want. You can say, I hope any racial slur dies. That's not against the law. That's where our work, my peers, mentors, people I've mentored, first responders on that front line have to stay vigilant.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So let's just say you make it into one of those groups and you're looking at thousands and thousands of the most vile posts you can think of.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yes, I was a cop in Greenville, South Carolina. Last two years, I was a vice narcotics investigator. I get hired by the FBI. My first office is New York City. Oh, wow. I'm at 26 Fed, and I was still assigned there when 9-11 happened. It's just the day of 9-11, I was undercover in San Antonio, Texas.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You just got to stay vigilant. You hope that people out there, cliche, but if you see something, say something.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I know a lot of times people that'll want to argue against law enforcement, they'll be like, oh, why are you pulling me over? Why aren't you working murders? Well, there's an old theory called the broken window theory, and it's we start small.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
If you're a disorderly walking down the street drunk and I lock you up for disorderly, maybe I stopped you from getting behind the wheel of a car and killing somebody in the DUI. Maybe I'll stop you from going home and murdering your wife or having that 15th domestic beating.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Another friend and acquaintance of mine, he's actually a great instructor speaker, former law enforcement in London, UK. We were having this conversation. It's like, man, why is there more of this stuff happening? We can dive down rabbit holes and stuff and conspiracy theories, but I've been around guns my whole life. It's not that.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And then Jerry Ratcliffe, he says, Scott with his cool accent, he says, we have to take away the opportunity. And I go, whoa. I do remember even going back to working a side job as a cop at a fun park where they got putt-putt and go-karts and video games. If you saw kids congregating on the side in the shady area not spending money, you go bust them up.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They're coming up with something nefarious to do.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You know, and you just go up there and go, hey, how's it going? What are you doing? Hey, man, you guys should rather just bust it up.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
He gets outed. Common term is doxed, D-O-X-X-E-D, which basically means outed. And this is the huge battle between far left and far right. I infiltrated the far right, so I say we, not that I don't have the belief system, but I'm in there with them.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
When we're doing these videos, we're double-checking. Hey, pail horse, you can see your tattoo. Oh, man, my bad. I pull the sleeve down. Or I go cut black socks just so I can cover up that because the sleeve's too short. Hey, your ponytail's hanging out. Hide that because they're so afraid of getting doxxed and being out.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
What the far left is really good at is once you are doxxed, they will show up at your house. They will protest at your work.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, they're good with that, and they get funding for it. I'm not going to dive down that rabbit hole on this one either, but they don't have money, but they're being paid by somebody because they're getting arrested in five different states for the same damn thing, and they don't live in any of them. Hate begets hate. It goes back and forth. The eye for an eye never is resolved. Right.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I came in the bureau at 28, so 29, 30.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So I'm in the group. I'm gaining their trust. And I'm learning more. And we as the FBI are learning more.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Well, and we don't want to lead anything.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Am I in the KKK and I bring a black person to the rally? Right. Yeah, right. Look at what I found. Yeah, exactly. Did I just start that and lead it? That'd be very bad. But with them, I was just a country guy, former biker, former skinhead, and yeah, I've shot. But I would throw. I would let them tell me. God, receiving instruction from these dum-dums. Well, it was good instruction, though.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Oh, okay. A 19-year-old kid led. I mean, it wasn't the best, but I walked away from that first meet and training. I was like, this is not good. Yeah. Where did you get the training? Because you didn't go in the military. You're only 19. Internet? Gaming.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They're so realistic. No, they are. They're realistic.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Hop on there and cut your microphone off. It's an 11-year-old kid telling you to clear the hard corner. Yeah. And handing your butt to you. And then his dad took him to a range and he practiced and practiced and got quicker and quicker. And he was probably on the internet looking at a lot of stuff. But I was happy to see some safety because I was really concerned with that.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
When we first started shooting, I stood at the back. Well, this fucking scenario with the goat. Yeah. You could have been killed there. So this is what happens. I've done a couple of blots. The first pagan blot I did was actually pretty legit because the guy that led it, even though he was a member of the base, was also an Asatru guy. And it was more legit.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I got to ask a lot of questions about it because I'm learning. Just like when they're teaching me tactics. I'll go, what did you call this again? Slicing the pie. Oh, okay. So when I'm slicing the pie, now I'm using the verbiage you gave me. Yeah, yeah. We do a couple of those. And on those blots, I mean, they would take wood and carve runes and swastikas and other hate symbols.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And you cut yourself and bleed on it and set that on fire. And we pray to our gods until the fire goes out.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Oh, yeah, you're 100%. From my experience, you're spot on.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I think it's a good story.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You found a group that will accept you. So we do those blots, and we're doing training, and I'm hearing all the crazy ideology. Other than the Canadian who ran, once he got doxxed, he absconded illegally in the United States. We were looking for him hard. There's a case agent, Rashid, out of Baltimore, and a U.S. attorney, Thomas Windham, and they were phenomenal.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The stuff they did, tracking phones and finding stuff, they were able to figure out that they knew he was in the country. I was helping them, and then Seattle had the main case, and they were working the poop out of it too. But there were divisions all over the United States working this stuff because if there's a member living in your area, when in L.A., he's got to open a case on it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Now we get to the point to where we find the Canadian. He is actually down at the farm. I pull up there for a weekend training or something. I'm counting the cars. I know whose cars are what, but I'm counting the heads under the awning of the barn. And I'm like, there's an extra person there. And I go walking up and it's bushy red hair and beard by this point.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah. In the book process, I had to dive deep. You're getting asked these questions. At first, it's just, hey, I'm going to tell you my blocks of instruction, the things I teach. This is what I've learned. Here's mistakes I made. Let's try to spread knowledge. I'm still trying to learn. But then you dive into, well, let's talk about you growing up.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
But as soon as he starts talking, I'm like, that's a Canadian.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
accent and then he introduces himself I didn't miss a beat I hugged him and said welcome to the United States brother and then we start training and now you're getting into more crazy ideology like when the boogaloo happens and I'm talking about crying while you're saying it I'm gonna have to shoot my dad in the back of the head and I'll do it because they're saying why because
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
In their belief system. Don't be stupid, Mike.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
When the boogaloo happens and D-Day starts, if you are not fascist, that automatically makes you anti-fascist. Oh, my God. And the penalty is death.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So I will say this is a whole nother thing, but just to tie it into current time, whether you love Trump, hate Trump, whatever, this kid that just killed, I think it was his dad and stepmom or mom and stepdad. He just killed him, and he was on his way to apparently do an assassination attempt.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Well, the first reports that start coming out show that he's reading the ideology I was just telling you about, and it mentions 09A. 09A is order of nine angles. That is a, let me say it this way. From what I found working it, infiltrating it, working it as a case agent, developing sources who are in and all around it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
If you scratch the surface long enough at an accelerationist group, somewhere in there, you're going to find an 09A member or there's some other groups that are very similar. It is a extremely, extremely dark, satanic white supremacy group. Still same thing, believe in a collapse of the society, but they are huge on rape, sexual abuse, and pedophilia. It's as dark as you can get.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Case happened very fast-paced. Eight months you were there? Seven, I think. But it was 24-7. And as I said, it kept growing and growing. The more people that we identified, it got to one point where once a month we would get all case teams on the phone call. There's over 100 people on the call. So we do this Halloween hate camp in 2019.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And then somewhere in that process, whether it was my co-writer or the literary agents, they were like, what do you think is your first undercover? And I was like, The thing that's popping in my head is high school. My first two years of high school, my vice principal, Lloyd Walker, short stature, black guy, kind of balding, very similar looking like Mr. Jefferson. It's kind of the same suit.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I show up and a guy named Eisen is going to be leading the block. Younger kid, clearly didn't know his paganism stuff very well. And again, they're twisting it. So I led hand-to-hand combat training that day. And this wicked cold front came in. The first one of the year, so you have not been acclimated. You're freezing your tail off. I go to charge my phone. I fall asleep because the heat's on.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You know, I'm like toast. I'm defrosting. And then I wake up to pounding on my window. Pale horse, pale horse, man, you got to get up. Wait till you see this. Wait till you see that. I'm like, what is it? They go, do you hear us talking about the goat? I'm like, uh-huh. And they're like, we got it. So I get out and they have gone.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
not that far down the damn road to a place that only had like three goats, jump the fence, steal the goat, almost get caught. It could be a ram. Ram goat is very close. It had horns. I walk out there, and one of the members who went by the name Dema is holding the goat in the back of one of the other members, can't go back's truck. And it's pooping everywhere.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And Dima says, he goes, man, this thing's shitting all over the place. And I said, well, hell, I would be too. Yeah, yeah. With a bunch of Neanderthals and flecktorn camo and balaclavas with machine guns. Just jumped in my backyard and jerked me out. It's not a surprise birthday party. Right. Now I'm watching Eisen work this goat. He's praying to it. He's talking to it. He's showing it love.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I walk up and I say, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? And he said, don't let the goat hear you say that. And I'm like, okay. And he said, this goat needs to know it's loved. It's being sacrificed to Odin. It's going to Valhalla. This is a good thing for the goat. We are showing it love and we're sacrificing it to Valhalla.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I remember thinking, I don't think that's what the goat's thinking. Might not know about Valhalla.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I go over to my listening device. When you're out, you should have a cover team. So if I'm out four days straight on the farm, they're going to be pulling shifts and rotating because you got to have a quick response team, which how quick can you respond to me on a hundred acre farm? If the crap's going to hit the fan, avenge my death.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Unless I'm still hanging on when you get there or everybody's dead and I'm standing there when you get there. I go to my listening device. I'm running through my head as a senior investigator, as a senior FBI agent, as an undercover coordinator, knowing all the policies and all the red tape, I'm running through my head. I'm going, do I need approval for this? Did we do this?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I lean in and I go, listen, If you guys can hear me, I said, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go down here and sacrifice this goat at this ritual. I know they stole the goat, but is it a misdemeanor? If any of you do not want me to do this and you want me to stop it or pull chocks, I need to know. Send me a sign. And I sat there and I waited and I got nothing. No phone calls.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I said, okay. Valhalla it is. I guess we're going to Valhalla. We go deep into the woods to the holy site where we've done stuff before. And that's when they go to sacrifice the goat. Eisen does a speech about... We're starting the wild hunt. So in Norse mythology, the wild hunt essentially is Odin and a bunch of other gods go out in the middle of the night and just slay all their enemies.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I don't know what it was. I felt like he did not like me. I felt like he rode my tail. But then again, I was a loud mouth, teenage kid, boy with testosterone, wearing sleeveless shirts and fingerless gloves and things you're not supposed to do.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
But in the twisted ideology of the white supremacy accelerationists, it was going to be the start of the wild hunt, which basically meant cleansing the planet of anti-fash, non-white Jews. So Aizen goes to kill. We're in a circle around the goat. Everybody's kind of on their knees. I'm not sure how I ended up at the back of the goat, but that's where I was at. and he has a machete type thing.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
He does his speech. We're starting this. This is the wild hunt. This is going to Valhalla. He even named the goat Gar. G-A-R, short for Garfield, which was his middle name, and also the first name of his grandfather.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So we've got a connection to this goat now. He goes to kill it, and for whatever reason, I don't know if the blade was dull. I don't know if his back strap was thick.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, but he brought it with force. He come down...
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
wham and I'm holding it and it was just a thud and all you hear is the goat go you know and I'm like oh damn and I'm like this is gonna get bad so fast and somebody said do it again and somebody's like the neck's too thick somebody says anybody got a gun well we weren't supposed to bring any weapons but the one guy who was least qualified to be handling a firearm had it hands it to Eisen
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So Eisen chambers around, points to the goat's head, and then turns away.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And we're all still in the circle. So that's when the instructor comes out. You hear it clear on the recording. I'm like, whoa, whoa, man. Hey, what are you doing? I said, look at what you're shooting at, man. We're in a circle. So he comes up to it. Boom. Even on the recording, you can hear the goat hit the ground. It kicks for several minutes.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I tell Oz and I say, man, I want you to put another bullet in it. I think it might still be alive. No, I'm pretty sure it's dead. I said, for the love of the goat, we're trying to make this a peaceful thing. For gore. For gore. Yeah, for gore.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Let's put this thing up to Valhalla peacefully. So they put another one in it and then somebody even says, oh, now it's definitely dead. So you think you're done? No. Now they slice the throat of the goat. They fill up a cup with his blood. Stop. We're all in a circle. And Eisen brought acid. Of course, I did not partake in the acid. Maybe a couple others didn't partake.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
To help with the shaman, which is to kind of get you in the spirit world. Or get high. Let's call it like it is. Yeah, I know. Let's call it like it is. I'm going to like young guns. I'm in the spirit world. But as we're going around, I'm holding the flashlight for Aizen. Aizen's tearing off a tab, putting it in the mouth of the base member, and then they're chasing with the blood of the goat.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
So we keep doing that all the way around. And it gets to me. And now it's my turn. And by this time, I look down at the cup, and it's all coagulated. It's clotty. Oh, my gosh. So gnarly.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah. Yeah, let's just be realists. Throw in a spike bracelet or two. Yeah, we need to just be aware of where he's at. A row of quarters, some brass knuckles, which I don't even know where you're carrying that. Oh, yeah. Butterfly knives. Butterfly knives. Ninja stars. Ninja stars.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I'm looking at it, and I'm going, man, I really don't want to turn this shit up.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'm thinking the same thing.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, I know. But I look and I said, I think pestilence gave me an out because I'm like, I'm looking and it's just chunky. And I just don't want it bouncing off my lip. Oh, this is horrible. So I stick my finger deep into the blood, pull it out, suck all the blood off my finger. And then they commenced to cutting the whole head of the goat off, and we carried it around for the next four days.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
There's all kinds of photo ops. There's videos. It made it all over. It was on BBC News, everything. Us holding the goat's head, giving the SIG howl, holding the base flag. Of course, the next day was completely shot because they were still high on acid. But we went back to training, and that Saturday night, we did more filming. We went back to the holy site. and set a bonfire.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
We're burning holy Bibles. We're burning American flags while everybody's screaming, F your Jewish God, death to America. You see, you got to understand, if you hate the far right, I'm not saying extreme right, like white supremacists, I'm just saying politically. It's like, oh, well, this white supremacist, these people don't like anybody.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Were there people there with some nefarious plans? For sure.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah. After that weekend, I gained more trust, and they started including me on what we found out were numerous murder plots. The Canadian went back up to the Baltimore, Delaware area and was with a cell up there. I was good friends with both of those cells. The cell up there thought that the Second Amendment gun rights rally that was going to be in January of 2020—
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They thought that might be the kickoff to the Boogaloo. Maybe fire some shots. Militia people think it's somebody else. Cops think it's somebody else. And that could be the kickoff. And if you could see some of the stuff they were spewing, the conversations they were having, like, let's go break out the Charleston shooter. Let's go break out the Saints. Let's start shooting cops.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I got a thermal scope. Cop stops a car at night. We pop them. What do you get automatically? You get another gun and bullets. You get a bulletproof vest. You might get a radio. It's just crazy stuff. So we uncovered all that. The timeline was crunching, and we were able to successfully take down everything.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, I still got one. So I felt like he was riding my tail. And then I was in a band called Shade of Green. We had a talent show, but my maturity was very, very low, experience-wise, because I'd only been playing cake parties. So if you're up there doing Pretty Woman or Hot for Teacher and you grab your crotch, a la Michael Jackson or something like that, you get a huge roar.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
It ebbs and flows and sometimes it is political. So like when Obama was in for eight years, your militias started growing again because they were worried about their gun rights. And then when Trump came in, it kind of died down because they weren't worried about it. And then it kind of ebbs and flows.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The white supremacy thing, the quickest way for me to answer it on an extremist level is what I've been talking about is far-right extremism, white supremacy. There's some malicious stuff in there too, anti-government, because I infiltrated it. But I've got mentors, peers, and people I've mentored that are working the other side and radical jihadists or black separatists or far-left.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
There's a lot of people being radicalized online. And especially with AI these days. So go back to what I said from what I saw. This isn't the be all end all. Every situation is different on a case by case basis. But I saw a lot of somebody who's an outcast, has a hard time belonging, can't get a partner. probably been bullied, and they want to belong.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And then they dive on these phones at night and they go down these rabbit holes of hate. I don't know if Gab's still in or not, but you could go to Gab and go to the group that's called 14 Words. That is white supremacy. They're referring to the 14 word coined by David Lane, synonymous through white supremacy. Or you can hop on Whites Only. I wonder what you're going to find there.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And they will take some real stories and they will do propaganda videos to suck you in. And then you start meeting like-minded people. And I'm telling you, the stuff that they blast is vile. And I know people that are working the other side and it's the same thing. So it goes kind of back to see something, say something.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I understand parents having blinders on because that's their kid and they don't want to believe it. But you think it's a phase. When your kid barely has a job or hardly ever has one,
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
It's denial. That guy came down and drank with us. And the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. He's dropping N-words and this, that, and the other. And I get it. He loves his son. He loves his daughter. That's cool. But your son has the skull of Gar, which has now been cleaned with swastikas and other white supremacy stuff and runes on it. And they're on one side of the skull.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
is Mein Kampf, Hitler's book, and on the other side of the thing is Siege by James Mason. That's not a phase. When you've got grown men showing up all the time and training on your hundred acres, wearing Flecktarn camouflage because that's the German pattern. drinking Jägermeister because that's German. And you hear what they're saying. It's tough. But go ahead. That was a long answer.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Everybody's drunk, it's 80s. So now we're playing at a talent show where people are coming to see their kids play the violin, do magic tricks, karate tricks.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, that's what your Joint Terrorism Task Forces are out there for. That's what your local cops are there for. On Joint Terrorism Task Force, because that's what I ended my career on, I was a criminal guy for the majority of my career. But That's where that call comes in. And a lead is typed up. Some of them are crazy.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Lady says she was kidnapped by ISIS and they replaced her eyes with alligator eyes. And you're like, what? I got to go find this person now and interview them? How do you do that interview? Hey, Dax, can you look at me? But you can do that.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And then they'll get a lead and maybe just going out there and knocking on the door saying, hey, a lot of crazy stuff going on in the world right now, but somebody reported that you're putting some radical stuff out there. I just want to make sure you're not really planning on hurting anybody. Maybe that scares them out. Maybe. Or maybe it
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
gives me an opportunity to have them call me if they see something crazy. In the book, I talk about that guy in the cage. It was other white supremacists that reported that guy because he was so radical. They're like, hey, man, I'm a white supremacist, but this dude... He's really crazy. This dude wants to shoot up a synagogue.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
The life's tough. I'm 100% believer in, I don't have to believe it, I've seen it, product of your environment kind of thing. I bond with a lot of these people, and it's not far from what I grew up around, or it's exactly what I grew up around, or it could have been my relative.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Some baton, gospel stuff, and here we come out. I'm grabbing my crotch way more than I thought I was. Clearly I was nervous. I knew I did it when I said hopper teacher, but apparently I was doing it. I didn't know I did. So they closed the curtain on us. It's very TV-ish. The curtain closes, and they're trying to cut the power, and me and the bass player still stick our heads out.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, or second chance or a fifth chance or a 20th chance. No one's winning the whole thing. I can give you one. I want second chances.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Love a success story. It's sad that there hasn't been a lot in my 28-year career. You always hear people when they're getting arrested or they're getting ready to do their time, they're like, man, I'm never doing this again. I said, remember where you're at. Also, let's be real. What do you plan on doing when you get out? I'm going to cut hair. My uncle was a barber.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
It's a great profession, but I want you to understand something. A barber's salary is not going to allow you to walk into the Dodge dealership, pay cash for a brand new Challenger with your own custom-made rims on it. So be prepared. But do that. Success stories, they are out there. And I have, even in retirement, let the U.S. Attorney's Office know.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I didn't have to, but I'm like, hey, I've talked to this person. We got put in contact with each other. I helped put this person in jail for their sentencing hearing. I'm going to do a letter for them, a character letter. But I wanted to let you know so you're not blindsided. They're like, man, thank you so much. I said, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to type it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'm going to send it to you. You let me know if you have any heartburn with it, and we'll discuss. And then I'll do a character reference letter, and they only got probation. Even through my church, small groups. Some of my best friends were meth dealers, and they had to go due time. But hey, man, I'm here for you. As long as you're doing the right thing, I'll do whatever I can to help you.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
They shut it off. The principal was Miss Workman. She came out, and my mother was there. My mother's a rock star. I'm her baby boy. Yeah, yeah.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, only child. We're out there in the foyer, and everybody's like, oh, man, that was awesome. And here comes Miss Workman, and she's like, I'm going to expel you. And she looks at my mom, and she goes, you're his mother? She says, yes. She goes, did you see what your son did on stage? And my mom was like, Yes, it was awesome.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I'm like, that's my mom. But I've got to find another school. So fast forward to, like, Monday. I get called into the vice principal's office, Mr. Walker. And I know, it's the walk of shame. You're never called in there for anything good, at least in my experience. So I go in there, and he's like, we need to talk about what happened. I'm already protesting.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'm like, I know people said I did this, but I didn't do it that bad. This is BS. You're always on my back, whatever I'm saying, because I'm a young idiot. He had a VCR tape. For the listeners, they used to be VCR tapes, but he plops in the VCR tape and I'm watching it and I'm going, oh.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I'm like, that's an intervention. I'm looking at him going, oh my gosh.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Why didn't I even take my hand off? I could have just left it there the whole time. And I look at him and I go, that's bad. I'm so sorry. And then I started talking about like, yeah, but think about like Michael Jackson and these groups. And I said, they grabbed their crotch all the time. Before you know it, we were cutting jokes and laughing.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I don't know if that was the catalyst, but after that, it was like we were buddies or as close as you could be, vice principal and a student. And then we get to the part in the book where he calls me into his office one day And he says, hey, man, did you hear about what happened to me? And I was like, yes, I did. Because I could drive past his house a lot. It was near my neighborhood.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
It wasn't like somebody took toilet paper and rolled his trees. They keyed his car. They spray painted his car. Spray painted his house. N-word was on. N-word, yeah. Racial slurs. It was like the horror story you hear. We're talking South Carolina in the 80s. It takes a while to get out of that culture. And in some places, you still run out of it.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
You get out there in the rural areas and you're like, but. He saw something in me. Through this process, I finally realized it's just me connecting to people. It's not blending in because I don't look like I'm a beta club member. But in the 80s, you had a smoking area. I could go in there and hang out. Yeah, yeah. I was a jock. I could hang out with all the jocks. I could hang out with musicians.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yeah, the burnouts. Potheads. I could hang out with those. Does that mean I smoked dope back then? Yes. Yeah. And that's how I hung out with him. I was even on the beta club. That was a weird fit. But he must have seen something. And he asked me if I'd be willing to help him try to figure out who did this. Because he's pretty sure it's somebody from the school that has a beef with him.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And I said, absolutely, man. That's wrong what they did. Some people may want to call it snitching or whatever. No, I'm doing the right thing. I'm fighting the good fight, even at a young age. So I start working crowds. Something simple like we're in the gym. Hey, man, how's it going? Yeah, shooting the ball. Hey, man, did you hear about what happened to Mr. Walker? Yeah, man, that's crazy.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I did that in every circle. And not like suspicious, I don't think, but there was one dude. We'd start talking, and man, his whole body language. You gotta go by the baseline, right? If you're always looking up when you answer, that doesn't mean you're lying, that's your baseline. Right. Yes.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
But if you never do it, and now I'm seeing different things, it's usually because you're thinking and you're trying to make up something. This dude did the Homer Simpson.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And you do the back away. Sinking to the shrubs. Yeah. Yeah. And I noticed that. I don't think they ever pinned it on him, but this part isn't in the book. I know that that kid slashed the tires on my car. We were at a night event. It might have been another talent show, but I came out and my color supreme was flat and I was very angry.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And when you told the principal, he was like, yeah, that's who I think. They probably called him in and questioned him, but it was clear. If he didn't do it, he definitely had something to do with it. Mr. Walker was like, yep, I just recently, whatever he did. Maybe that kid got two weeks of after-school suspension or something, but he had just gotten in trouble.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Most likely, it was him and some friends outside of our high school. But my tires got slashed and I was pretty sure it was him. And then one day in school, I went after him. I waited for class to start. I went down to his classroom and I opened the door and I started busting through desks, knocking people out of the way, going at him.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
He ran into, there was a room in the back of that classroom where they did like the newspaper. which is where his girlfriend worked. And, of course, I got sent to the principal's office. And he was lenient. Yeah, Mr. Walker was high-fiving. He goes, now listen, I'm going to have to yell and stuff. Yeah, do it every day next time. I'm telling you, Scott, don't you ever do that again.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
We're being expelled. That's cool. So that's kind of when I start thinking of connecting with people. Not that I'm necessarily deceiving them, but I'm trying to find out information.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I majored in criminal justice, minored in psychology. Oh, okay.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
What if I went back for six hours?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
Yes. At first, I couldn't. I came out of college with a 3.8 average my last two years on the dean's list playing NCAA football. But in South Carolina at that time, for whatever reason, four different departments told me I did really, really well. They would love to have me, but they weren't hiring white guys. And I said, that would have been nice to know before I graduated. So how did you end up?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I kept applying. I was already bouncing at gentlemen's clubs. I'm using air quotes. Sorry if I'm offending you, but.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
There are no gentlemen in those clubs, and neither was I back then.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I graduate college. I can't get a job. I was actually overqualified to be a mall cop. They wouldn't hire me. So I took a job as a security officer for two months maybe. And then I said, I can't do it. I'm going back to bouncing. I went to a large country club in North Charleston. We had a law enforcement presence there. We all got certified in pressure points and
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
control tactics by the state of South Carolina through law enforcement. So now I'm starting to get more exposed and I knew I wanted to be a cop and I get hired by Greenville County Sheriff's Office. So I go back home and I'm uniformed patrol for three years. And then my last two years, I was able to become a vice narcotics investigator.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
And that's when I now go back to Columbia to the South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy. I get certified in undercover techniques. How long is that program?
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I don't even remember there if we really focused on backstory or not. That came in the FBI because once I got back to the narcotics unit, if I was doing the undercovers, it's not deep undercover. I'm making a couple of buys and we're doing jump outs or I may be hopping in a car with a source. Also, how hard is it when you're in the town that you work in? Very hard. Yeah, I'd imagine.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
That is a huge issue on the state and local level because if I'm in Greenville County, let's just say you get threatened. Greenville County, number one, doesn't have it in their budget. Number two, they're not going to spend money to move me outside of the county. I work for Greenville County. How many ways can I shave my facial hair? Right. Cut my hair on my head if I have any.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
It's very thin now. I'm hanging on to what I got. I'm in a battle myself. Oh, man. Hourly. Yeah. I'll be at CPI stem cells next week and Tijuana, and I think I'm going to get them to shoot something in my head. See if it does anything. So I start getting that bug. First thing I did was they rolled me down to a drug corner in a high-trafficking drug area. And here I am at probably 270 pounds.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I do not look like I smoke crack. And I'm going down there to ask for a 20 because it was a $20 for a crack rock. I was so scared. I was scared on multiple fronts because— Number one, I didn't want to embarrass myself in front of the gurus that are training me. Number two, I'm just scared because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Yeah, exactly.
Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Scott Payne (retired undercover FBI Agent)
I go down there, and they're like, all you got to do is roll up, and they're going to rush your car, and you're just telling them you want a 20. So they come up, and I crack the window because I'm so scared. I put the 20 through the window like it's a vending machine. And he's like, what do you want? Yelling at me, and I'm like, a 20?
Suave
Someone's Hand to Hold - Ep. 3
I'm sorry, the person you are trying to reach has a voicemail box that has not been set up yet.
Suave
Someone's Hand to Hold - Ep. 3
Scott Payne spent nearly two decades working undercover as a biker, a neo-Nazi, a drug dealer, and a killer. But his last big mission at the FBI was the wildest of all.
Suave
Someone's Hand to Hold - Ep. 3
Listen to Agent Pale Horse, the second season of White Hot Hate. Available now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away. But you go to the UC school, and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in, one of my buddies walked in. He looked like he'd been raped by a tribe. He walked in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail. I'm like, are you okay?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And some people, it's just – I would say that the reason – The training is like that. It's not hazing. It's just so we don't lose anybody. We try to make it as real as you can. Well, you got to find out who's going to crack. Yeah. And think of this. In a real scenario, not all undercovers are like this. But in the ones I would usually do, there's going to be a lot of times with no sleep.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
At first, for a fleeting moment, I said, I'm going to be an attorney. Yeah, I'll be an attorney. And then I realized I'd be a terrible attorney. I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, they did it. Right. That's not going to get me any clients.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
My skill set led me not to Wall Street. It didn't lead me to the yacht. It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscled for the mafia guy. Unlead me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. So I get certified and then I go back and role play. And that's when people start kind of seeing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And you're trying I mean, you're trying to make a name for yourself. I wasn't getting calls because on paper, I'm a white guy with a foreign language. But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, hey, you got anything? Hey, it's big country. You got anything? More medium now. I could even be little country at this point.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But I'd be like, hey, you got anything for any rednecks with no foreign language? And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh, and then they'd finally ask me to come to school. And once you do the school, now there's season undercovers coming back. And they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And that's where I kind of started getting into some things. It has to be one of the most exciting things. kinds of law enforcement. For me, absolutely.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah. Now you made me second guess my career. Seems like it worked out. I'm going to call Cash now.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
That was an outlaws case. I'd already done some undercovers, again, in the FBI. I'd done several street-level things or numerous, whatever, at the state level. But I was doing a couple of cases in the FBI, and they were smaller. Maybe it was supposed to be –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kennison, grabbing him and going, say it. You did it. So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me. And I did a ride along with cops and the department. And that was it. But once I got in to law enforcement, I was uniform patrol for three years. I was just so fascinated with undercover. I don't know what it was.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Interstate transportation of stolen goods and it turned into a public corruption case but when I landed the outlaws case that was that was my First big and probably one of the biggest I did. So how does that go?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'm not a smart man. So that's how it started Why do you do this Scott I'm not smart I am stupid I'm a glutton for punishment. And my last name is Payne, you know. In that case, they'll do canvases. A lot of times, so I was an undercover coordinator.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Every division has an undercover coordinator, so you are the front line on all things covert, and you're the liaison between headquarters and that field office. Um, so if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, Hey, I'll just put a text out to you. You interested?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Or we may just send out a canvas and then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator. And if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureau wide canvas and. See what we can get. I can't remember exactly. If somebody called me on that one, I'm pretty sure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I don't remember that outlaw as being a canvas, but it possibly could have been. Well, you fit the bill. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It depends. Slash Viking, whatever. It depends. That's what a lot of people... I'll get off on a tangent, but throughout my career, my... My mentors, my peers, people I've been blessed to mentor. Some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents. I mean, brainiacs, awesome. And they'll be like, man, I can never do what you do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
My beard would be down to here, whatever, tatted up. And I'm like, well, don't do me. What's your background? And they're like, well, I was an accountant. And I'm like, with who? Before that, I was an accountant with Disney or whatever. I was this. I was a lawyer. Well, you'd be you. Somebody's probably going to be pissed because they're going to say it's tradecraft.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But listen, I could bring you in and you just walk into the group. I'm in the primary. I've already laid all this stuff out. It's a chess game. We're always trying to stay four or five moves ahead. Or Master of Puppets. I'm just trying to connect with people and work the scene. But you come in and you dress as an accountant and you talk like an accountant and then you walk out. You're you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah. And I'm like, you might see something where they say, I need a person this tall that speaks this language, that does this and knows this. But what are you trying to do? Essentially... The FBI works everything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And if a target, if we have predication or predicated target or there's information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious, if we want to do an undercover, how do I get close to you? I mean, what do you find attractive? Usually it's money in the criminal world. It's green, right? You can see the Mexican mafia working with the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They hate each other, but they love green. And one needs guns and one needs dope and, you know, it all in the criminal world. But for that case, I went up. I got interviewed by, of course, the FBI. There were task forces there. DEA was there. ATF was there. And they had been working this case for a while. And generally, this is the way it would work for me on these long-term type undercovers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
The case team's been working this for a long time, a year plus. They've been building intelligence. Now, they've got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here. But to get that airtight case and to find out what's really going on, Now they're at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I can't really remember doing the book. I've tried to dive back in. People ask. I don't really remember. I just know that. I loved undercover movies, period. If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was. I love them all. And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, he was actually the world's strongest man in the late 80s after Kazmaier. Oh, wow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And we came up with a plan, and I went in cold. I tried to bump them, as we say, a cold bump. But I went into a bar that they frequented. I went there when they weren't there. It was a strip club. I used to bounce at strip clubs. In the book, I make a joke –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Because I call them a gentleman's club, but then I say that's an oxymoron because everyone I've been in, there's not a lot of gentlemen in there. And that includes me back in the whatever days they were. But I knew how they work. So I went in there and I just started hanging out. And of course, this accident in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm getting noticed as soon as I start talking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Where the hell are you from? And I kind of worked that and started working the bar, doing what I do. Everybody has their own way. And let me say this since it's at the beginning. Listen, for me, I want people to know it comes from a humble spot. There are men and women out there that have done way more undercovers than me. They have been through more harrowing things than me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I already said, I've got mentors, I've got peers, I've got people I've been blessed to mentor. Some of them don't want to talk. Some of them haven't had the opportunity. So just know it's coming from a love kind of place.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, I know. I love connecting with people. I don't care whether you're smart, stupid,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Big, you know skinny fat any ethnicity doesn't matter and that's one thing I do miss about the job I miss getting called out at 2 in the morning for the craziest of the crazies and you show up to do an interview and Essentially, I befriend you and you either confess or we find out you really want to do anything I do remember one night this wasn't undercover, but they call me because towards the end of my career I was doing nothing but mainly domestic terrorism and
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And they call me. They go, we got one down here. He's a white supremacist. He's assaulted a cop, this, that, and the other. Well, I get down there. It's like 3, 4 in the morning now. I do my spiel. I'm not screaming at the guy. Man, you need something to drink. Here, man, you look cold. Here's a coat. So tell me about what happened. I'm not here for this other stuff. And I start talking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Well, somewhere in there, I'm like, okay, this guy's not a white supremacist. He's a sovereign citizen. And he's just anti-government. Pro-sheriff, elected, but anti-government. Sovereign citizens, I really can't stand to deal with them. It's just like absurdity to the max. Explain sovereign citizens to people. You see it all over YouTube.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They get pulled over and they go, I don't need a driver's license. I'm in commerce. I'm in transit. If they touch you, well, that's rape. They think they've got $175,000, $250,000 being held by the government for each person. It's crazy. They'll start putting liens on people. People put on trainings.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see like this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit. But I never got that training. Is this legit? You know, I guess I can't pull this guy over. Then you start diving in. You start getting the training. These people are full of crap. And then you see the cops popping the window and dragging them out of the car.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You're still going. But this guy was a sovereign citizen. He had a brother. And we're talking, and he's telling me this stuff and the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And I said, but how do you know that's what the forefathers meant when they signed that? And he said, because I was there, son. Oh, boy. And that's when I went.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
He was a former Marine and big dude. And he... on a task force had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And, man, I wanted to be a biker. I grew up on motorcycles, and that just started taking off from there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, like this. He goes, didn't he miss a beat? I go, how do you know? Because I was there, son. And I went, there. Oh, you've been reincarnated about four or five times. Oh, boy. And I'm like, and you got this life this time? You got the one you're living right now this time?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You look like you've had a rough life. I mean, if I was going to buy into reincarnation, I'd want to come back as maybe like my mom's dog or something like that. Eat steak. Yeah, something good. Just a great life. Sleep, eat, and play. But so back to the outlaws thing. I go in, and I'm just shooting the shit. I'm just working the bar. I'm telling jokes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You get a crowd of people around you, and that's not trade crap. I mean, that's just me, right? And by the way, for the listeners who may not know, a little intervention. If you buy all your friends all their drinks and their food all the time, they're probably not your friends. Right. You know what I mean? I got all kinds of friends. Those aren't your friends. Right. Stop paying.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They won't come around anymore. But that's kind of what I was doing. And then now we get to the night to where the outlaws are leaving their clubhouse. And for the listeners that don't know, in the biker world, especially one percenter world, there's a mandatory meeting every week at a clubhouse and they refer to it as church. So they're leaving church.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I get the surveillance team telling me, hey, man, we're leaving church. I'm like, cool. I'm at the bar. Already the foxy lady in Brockton, Massachusetts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Right. And marvelous Marvin Hagler. Yeah. I'd go for a jog and I'd go home. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. But they tell me they're coming. Now, the intelligence that they had provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, hey, man, can they wear their colors, their cuts, their leathers in the bar? And they said, no, they don't allow that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I'm thinking in my mind, well, that makes my approach easier because I'm not a tattooed guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
watching naked women listening to heavy metal and drinking next to a guy who's watching naked women and heavy metal drinking they had that part wrong because about 13 15 outlaws come walking into the bar take the whole back bar they're all wearing their colors so that does that change my approach yeah i think it does yeah unless you want me to go up and as i say when i'm teaching this i go up and i go what do you say come and go hey uh you you boys right what do you
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Nothing? No? All right, fine. I'm going to go back on the other side of the bar. Please don't beat my ass. So I just was being loud and boisterous. It's me. That's what I do. It doesn't always work for undercovers. Some people don't like it, but it's my personality.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Boy, that's a tricky question. Yes, I can drink. But here's the thing. Let's say that outlaws case. That was two years. So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a Jack and Coke up, right? I'm anal. Even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight. And I wanted to be good. I wanted to always get better and be more well-rounded. So I would watch.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And even if I caught myself at 5 in the morning, 6 in the morning slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, dadgummit, man. And then I'd listen, and within five minutes I'd be back. Because you've got to remember, all that could be played in front of a jury. And if I'm on there slurring and saying a bunch of stupid stuff, I mean, how does that affect my articulation for what I was doing?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Right. But was my alcohol tolerance very high? You're a big dude. You probably put some away. I did. I kind of still do. I'll tell you what put me on a three-month timeout was CPI.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, because you go down there and you get the stem cells.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Absolutely. Great, great facility. I will tell you the... My previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, I almost died. I had a hip replacement, and I got sepsis, and I almost died. So 14 days after my total hip replacement, quickest surgery I've ever had, about 30 minutes, chop the femur off, drill it, pop. They're walking you out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It's been around forever. Forty-plus years right now. Easy. Wow. Yeah. And then there's books made. There's books made. They go to court. They learn.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You're still very high on all your – they're like, if you can walk, you can go home. And I'm like, I can't walk? But apparently something happened. They got infected. So 14 days later, I had sepsis and they got it under control and they went back in and cleaned me all out. I had two hip surgeries in 14 days. But fast. So now I'm going to Tijuana, knowing what I know about working the border.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Even though I'm friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, and I'm like, I'm like, man, now I'm going by myself. Best hospital stay I've ever had. It's phenomenal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Phenomenal. But what got me cut back on my drinking is I got down there. You can't drink the week before, especially if you're getting the IV stem cells because they travel through your body and they grab stuff. So if you drink and it sees your liver working harder, it's going to go to your liver. So you're kind of wasting the shots. I knew I couldn't drink the week before I got there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And they go, yes, you can't drink for three more months. And I went three months. And they're like, I said, then nobody told me that. And I was like, and I immediately went, I need to cut back anyway. That's fine. You know, but yeah, tolerance was high for you. You have to be drinking with these folks when you're hanging out with them. You don't have to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But this will go back to an explanation of the undercover school. If you're going to drink. We want you to drink in a controlled environment when you're tired because we want you to see how you feel. We also want to see how you behave when you're extremely tired and you're plastered, right? So you have to know that. In other words, you don't want to find out in the middle of the clubhouse.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So, yeah, you can drink, but you're being recorded. So be wary about it. What about drug use? Is this tradecraft or not? Maybe this is the easiest way to say it. If I believe my life is in danger and like literally I'm getting ready to die, I will snort the lacquer finish off of this damn table. And then I'll be like, is that all you got? You want me to do some more? Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I think it goes back to World War. I mean, my history is bad, but I think it goes back to World War at least two. Really? Because all those, the way it goes, everybody always asks what a one percenter is. And it goes back, I think it's 1947, but it goes back to when your veterans are getting out. They have nothing. They had no decompression back then. They had no plans or programs for them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And they've been out here living this raucous, rowdy life. And now they're back in the States, and now they're supposed to just flip and be like... So they started creating these clubs, and they were doing some raucous and rowdy stuff. And then it was the president... of the American Motorcycle Association.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good, loyal, abiding citizens. There's only 1% that's bad. And they took that as a badge of honor and said, we're one percenters.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
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The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
My mentor. One of my. Really? Yeah. Joe Pistone. Absolutely. Oh, wow. He helped certify me. I saw him probably within the last six months or so. Graciously, he did a blurb on the book, too. Oh, wow. I call him boss man, you know. So do you remember your first undercover assignment? Uh, yes. Yeah. Uh, it was at the sheriff's office.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
just pop and this sucker's like 90 degrees and i'm like mother i pulled over i slammed on the brake well i mean snow but come to the stop and i go what the f is your problem and he's looking at me he's going i don't know what he was on but he was in an evil space right and i'm looking at him and i'm going look if you want to f and fight we'll stand out in the damn snowstorm right now and we'll go at it i know you think you can whip me but maybe i can whip you
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I saw it wasn't going anywhere and he was getting more and more angry. And I just looked at him and I went, he's an animal right now. I'm going to defuse. I'm going to deescalate, which is really what you should be doing as an undercover. And I look over and I go, hey, hey, after I pop my finger in, I go, hey, sniff, smell, good boy, friend, friend, like that. I'm trying to calm him down.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Then he starts laughing. But that's the kind of stuff you get. But to me, it was no different than being in college, playing ball.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, when you're there in the month of August and nobody is there. It's just 24-7 football.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It was sad because in that case, there was a point where I had a young daughter. And his youngest daughter was roughly the same age as my daughter. So I'm not at home with my kid, but I'm in his house bouncing his daughter on my lap. And, you know, when they're developing as a human being, at that stage, they're kind of making the same noises, moving the same way. It was surreal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So I, after three years of uniform, I make it, uh, to narcotics investigator. Well, you got, it's a tough crowd, but we're funny, you know, but it's, it's just like a good military group or anything else. There's going to be a lot of ribbon and stuff like that. So, uh, They said, hey, you're going to go buy some dope tonight. It was my first time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And then I remember thinking, man, I mean, I really like this guy. You know, he likes to drink. I like to drink. He likes to fight. I like to fight. He likes to ride. I like to ride. He likes to live. I like to live. I go, man, we finished each other's sins. Everything I already said. And then I look over at his refrigerator.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I see all these stickers and magnets and stuff, and my eyes just settled in on WWSD. And for the listeners that don't know, WWJD is very common in the Christ follower Christian community. What would Jesus do? You see the bracelets all the time. And I look over and it said WWSD. What would Satan do? And I looked and I went, oh, yeah, we're not the same. We're not. I'm back.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I used to, we'd be in the clubhouse and everybody's yelling. They're like, you know, if for the, again, people that don't know, whatever your biker club name is, you usually get these same sayings. So for the outlaws, it's outlaws forever. Forever outlaws. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God forgives. Outlaws don't. Yeah. Yeah. It's better to be first in hell than second heaven. And I'm like, what?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
T. Hang on. I'm like, I'm not saying I'm a chalk walking Christian because I'm pretending to be a one percenter, you know, evil man. But what story have you ever heard of hell where it was good? I mean, are you helping me out here? So, yeah, it's a crazy bunch. But on that case, one of the biggest things that happened is we had been going for a year and a half and doing all these things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They've carjacked stuff. We're getting more and more evidence. There was a. Hell's Angel president murdered in Connecticut, Bridgeport, Connecticut.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So Bridgeport, Connecticut, and the other Hell's Angel that was shot didn't die, and he was able to give a description of a green truck with Florida plates. We knew at that time that Florida outlaws were up in that area because they were hanging out with our targets. And even when I would call, I'd be like, hey, man, it's hot here right now. If you come out, you need to be strapping.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'm like, well, I don't want to fly with it. I don't want to put a bullseye on my back back then. I'm like, hey, if I show up, we'll give you a vest. We'll give you a gun kind of thing. So we're doing all that. And now we get to the point to where we can all the predications there. They've done wiretaps. The case team has been doing a wiretap. They know that there's drug deals going on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They're doing surveillance. And now we're to the point to where we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well. My story was... that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because some of my peeps got popped because the heat was getting close. So I pulled chocks and I was out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And all I do now is move stolen equipment down because it's a lot less, the way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me. And then they would ask, you know, well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you're working with?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Now, granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school, and I was around those groups, but I never bought crack cocaine. I was already probably 6'4", and I probably was about 270 pounds. I did not look like I smoked crack. Unless I just fell off the wagon. Or I just started, yeah. I'm the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef. I just stopped. But they told me, hey, it's real easy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I go, because I'm the gringo that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through. And that was really happening on the border. And I knew that because I was on the border working it. Again, real things. You're just putting them into your story.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Um, but I'd now let them know it took a long time. I don't put words in their mouth. Um, but I started laying breadcrumbs over weeks and months that I did used to be in the dope game. And of course, Joe dogs, the president, I mean, the first time I met him and he said, where are you from? I said, McAllen, Texas on the border. His next question was how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I went, well, if we were needing predication, uh, I think he just gave it. But his business skills weren't that great, because I'd say, look, man, about 13 grand is what you could get a kilo for then on the border. He said, man, so if I got 10 of them up here for 13, I'm like, no, that's not going to cost 13 up here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
There's a reason the kilo costs 25 to 30 grand up here, because somebody has to get it from the border to here. Now, if you want to drive down the border and buy 10 for 13 apiece, and you risk taking them back over, but... So we let it be known that I had some cartel. Of course, they knew I had cartel contacts, and we started introducing those.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Some cameo undercovers came in, unbelievable people, and we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection. There was going to be a drug shipment coming in, and my crew was going to be delivering it to another crew, and we needed protection. And we did it in Brockton, and several outlaws hopped in on it. The issue was this. At least one of the big issues.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Pretty much that case, I had a great time. Yes, it's violent, and my mentality was changing. There is a podcast that's a series that's going to be coming out with the book, and they actually interview one of the task force officers who was over me on that case, on the outlaws. And I remember him calling me. He's like, hey, what can I say? I said, tell them the truth.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I said, I want to know what you were thinking. I know what I was thinking. And it was really, really surreal to hear him talking about he could see my personality changing. He could see, and like the FBI office might be saying, we want him to patch. And he was over here fighting, going, hell no. We're getting everything we need now. If he patches, then they can order him to do shit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And it was just really cool to hear that. But essentially for the case, it was me, an FBI case agent, and two task force officers. We had Detective Joe Cummins from Brockton PD, Sergeant Higginbottom from the Massachusetts State Troopers, and then an agent with the FBI. And that was it. I mean, they would add some here and there, but for two years, that was it. It was us.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So now we get to this point to where we're like, man, let's do this drug protection. And the assistant United States attorney was like, hey, if you're going to be at the clubhouse, do they talk about this at the clubhouse? We're like, yeah. And he goes, well, that would be awesome if we could get that recorded because it helps, right, to show what they're planning on doing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So the night before the deal is supposed to happen. They don't know it, but we've got 40 kilos of real cocaine and 1,000 pounds of weed, real. So you can imagine SWAT teams are involved. I mean, can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos of cocaine? And Brockton and Taunton's are all wide awake for the next week, you know, or there's ODs, you know, because that's a liability.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Did you say you had 40 kilos? There's only 39 here. I don't know. But so. They say, hey, Joe Dawgs calls me. It's not a church. He says, hey, I need you to come to the clubhouse. I'm like, all right, cool. And, of course, I'm thinking, I'm type A. I'm Scott Payne. I got this. Let's go do this, man. These are my boys. I've been doing this a year and a half.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I went into the clubhouse, and what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording devices were at because that's tradecraft, but let's just say I had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing. I had a completely audio recording device somewhere else on me, and I had a transmitter battery so the team could listen in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You're just going to roll down to this corner. It's a known drug trafficking area. You're going to roll down there. White boy, you're going to roll down the window. They're going to come up to you and say, what do you want? And back then it was a 20. You just get a rock, 20 bucks for a rock. And say, all you got to do is hold that 20 and say, you just want a 20. So I drove down there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I went into the clubhouse like normal, but what you can't see, if you go back and you watch the video, is if I'm facing this way, And I'm shooting the shit with you and this is the bar. And you're laughing at my jokes like always. When I would turn my head to look this way, it's still filming. And I didn't see it because I turned my head. They go stone face. And I missed it. I didn't see it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I do know that when I got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I'm knocking on the door. I'm like, what the, you know, Joe Dog's props. He goes, hey, we're not ready yet. And I'll go, why the hell did you tell me to come? I was being smart. I'm like, pfft. What's the deal? Why would you say come if you're not ready? I didn't pick anything up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So I go in and for the listeners that may not know, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it several times. They wanted me to patch. But I'm with what I said for the task force officer. I said the same thing. I'm like, look, if I'm a probate and they say, get your shit text, we're going to go jack this dude. I kind of got to go.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I mean, if I don't do it, I'm either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever. But being a high-ranking member of an international theft ring that they're making money off of, it's a little different. We were getting everything we wanted. So I go in the clubhouse. I miss that. I also miss that in the back, one of them, Chocolate Scott,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It looks like he's dancing to the song that's playing, but he's warming up. And I missed that. And then my second closest contact closed line says, hey, Tex, you got a minute? And I said, yeah. And we walk. I've been in that clubhouse. I don't know how many times, Joe. But there's one door I've never been in. And that's the door we went in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And it was a very tight stairwell into, you can say a basement, but that's being very, I'm stretching it. Because I could probably touch the wall on both sides and I couldn't stand up straight. So they bring me down in there. They've brandished their weapons. One of them walks in behind me. He's on the steps. So they got their pistols. And my friend says, hey, there's a lot of shit going on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Here's the problem. Had I not been wired, embarrassing, yes. Naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement. Yeah, that would have been bad, but it would have been no threat. But I was wired to the hilt. And so you think, man, do you fight? Do you try to get out? Well, there's already two or three there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone. But I was also scared to make a fool of myself in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me. And I roll down the street and I pull up and they come running up to the window. What you want? What you want? I crack the window. I crack it about this far, and I stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a vending machine.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'm probably going to do some Tommy boy shit and knock myself out on the joist as soon as I start trying to fight. And then upstairs, there's what, 10 more outlaws. And that door, what I was getting into earlier, I didn't say, if you're not a patch member, you can't touch the door. That door has more than one deadbolt on it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those like shipyard metal bars across. So from a breacher standpoint, it's a fortified door. It might be easier to breach the wall next to it. So we're down there in the basement. And when I go to write my name down, I forgot my middle name. And that's because I was having a no-crap moment. I had an adrenaline dump.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Same thing as cops in shootouts, military in shootouts, somebody in a car wreck first time. When you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down. You get auditory exclusion. So everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater. It's going whoosh, whoosh. It's slow, like you're talking to me like this. Time dilation. Your eyes are clicking. You look and everything's in frames.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Everything's slowing down. Your hamstrings get really rubbery. You feel your heart beating. I mean, do you feel everything pulsing? And what seems like... 10, 15 minutes is probably 30 seconds. And that happens. That's an adrenaline dump. So that was happening. And I forgot my middle name. And I'm going, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I start going through this damn Rolodex in my head, and I'm going, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway. And I'm going, Scott Joseph. I go, no, damn it. That was my middle name for another alias. And I don't realize that I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence. I would have never... No one I said it would have never agreed I said it had I not seen it in the recording.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But I turn and I go, and what else do you need? And by the way, you've got a bass line of me now, my voice. It did not sound like this on that recording. My throat was tight. The octaves, I mean, it was very higher than normal. And I'm like not even enunciating that well. I'm like, and what else do you need? And they're like, what? I go, my name and what else?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Well, now I hear them scream up and they go, what else do you need for that website? So now I know, oh, they're going to Google me. Back then there was whoserat.com, things like that. So I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And then I remember my middle name was, my initials were SAC because I'm an idiot and I thought it was funny because SAC is the head of an FBI division and I knew I was never going to be one. So I made my initials SAC. So I remember my name's Scott Andrew Calloway. And then I write that down. Well, now I take off all my clothes. I take off my outer clothing, all my shirts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I take my boots off and I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. So pretty much naked from ankle. I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up. And he starts searching me. And I'm again, I'm having an oh shit moment. And he's trying to talk to me and like we had known each other for a year and a half.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So I'm not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, tell me I'm okay. Is this okay? Well, clothesline, because we were tight, hits me back with a face look that's like, everything's all right. This is just procedure. However, he didn't know that I'm an undercover agent and I'm wired. So that adds a whole other issue.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So he searches me, I think we're done. At one point, he even tells me, he says, trust me, if somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the fucking mouth. And I said, those are his words, and I immediately said, well, I'm not happy. I'll tell you what I did do. I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor. And I've had people ask me, what does that mean?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I go, well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor and they're telling you to walk on it. They're going to cut you open. Yeah. It's to clean up the blood. I didn't see that. I saw a rope. I saw pistols. And I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there in one piece. So.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'm like, I want a 20, you know? And the dude's like, he takes the 20, but he can't hand me the crack rock back to the cracked window. He's like, roll the damn window down. And I'm like, my bad. It's probably like a sliver of soap. Who knows? But that was my first drug buy. First undercover, like legit. And so what was the protocol? Like you had to buy the drug and then what do you do?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
he he finishes and he's like he's saying something he goes he goes wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to your town and starts doing all this with you i said yeah if you came to me i didn't come to you guys y'all called me over nobody has to do this i'm like what do we you know nobody has to do anything right and i think we're done so i'll pull my pants back up And I think we're done.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And he grabs a piece of clothing of mine. And he starts kneading it and going through it. Now, this is 2005 to 2007. So technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is. But let's just say this. Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would have felt something.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And he says, as a joke, when he starts, he goes, hey, I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to, like some naked pictures of my old lady. And he laughs, and his laugh is like, and my laugh is like, you know. And then I'm watching him. Go down this piece of clothing and he's doing this and he's needing it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And, and I, you can hear, I, again, I don't know how to do it, but on the recording, you can hear me go an audible sigh because I'm like watching it. I'm going, what the, what am I going to do? So here's how it ends. He doesn't find it. Wow. Wow. Almost. I mean, like, very, very close. And by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up and now I've got another adrenaline dump.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And now I've come in, I'm like, son of a, you know, it's peaks and valleys. And everybody that I've taught this to or spoke about it to always ask, they're like, man, what would you have said? And I'll tell you, I had two responses. Because I'm a jovial idiot, my first response, if he would have said, what is this?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I would have probably said, I don't know, some naked pictures of the old lady to try to buy myself some time, maybe make him quit searching. The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday, I would have said, the gig is up, I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court, or all hell's going to break loose.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Here's the issue, as I get a swig. That would have been a bluff on my part. Because as far as I knew, every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me. For whatever reasons. Because somebody's going to say it's tradecraft. But again, this is 2005 to 2008. But they could never really hear me in that clubhouse. And... I make it out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dogs that night. But what happens is I am legitimately pissed off because now my adrenaline is coming back down. And I'm taking it personal. I shouldn't. I'm undercover as an FBI agent. I'm not really Scott Calloway. I mean, I'm kind of Scott. But you're so deep in the role. Well, and it's really me, kind of. I mean, that's the whole thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I never was far off of who I really am in life. A pedophile? Yeah. You're hiring me to kill somebody? No, I'm not going to ingratiate with you. I'm a Stone Cold killer. but I'm hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever. Yeah. The jokes are kind of the same. So, so I'm pissed. And I'm at one point I'm telling Joe dogs, I'm like, you know what, man, F all you sons.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Uh, good question. I grew up in South Carolina, um, played ball, all that stuff. I, I was always kind of a, I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, cause that's not it. You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses. Um, but I was kind of a bully of bullies. I didn't, I always looked out. I liked the underdog. Um, I bounced in college.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I said, y'all show up tomorrow. I said, I'm stripping all y'all in the damn parking lot. You know, I was just, well, they were nice. They let me vent my stuff. Well, that night when I went to turn in my equipment, uh, at an undisclosed location, probably three, four or five in the morning to the case team. Um, what I found out was this, uh, the shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It depends, uh, case by case basis. We may want to make numerous buys on that corner, try to come in with the jump out boys. They used to call them and shut that corner down for a while. We may be trying to, to make buys on the low level people on the corner selling who are probably most likely users, at least as my experience.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Everybody called him Higgy, uh, and Joe, the detectives, uh, the detective. Uh, these guys are awesome. Phenomenal law enforcement officers. Uh, Although I think their love language is yelling. Maybe that's my southern thing mixing with the northeast thing. But they told me. They said, Scott, we heard you in there. And I'm like, what?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
When I had that first interaction with Joe Dogs, they are very street smart. They're very good investigators. And they have been working this group forever. Something that happened in that first interaction made their spotty senses or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer, say something's not right. They had pulled close enough. They heard everything. They put on their vest. They suited up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And because they'd been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door. Oh, my God. Just to smash that. Sometimes I'm teaching this. I'll joke about it and say it probably would have killed me because I was in the basement. Reverse. Back up. You're so damn heavy. But at that moment, I was scared to death, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So they tell me what happened was – They pulled close enough. They heard everything. They're suiting up. They have radioed now because it's kind of the beginning of the shift. They've radioed now back to Boston. Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to the hauling ass to Taunton, Massachusetts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. We went through the FBI Academy together. And that night, again, I'm still shell shocked. He says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on. I felt like I was in there with you. And I looked at him and I said, you weren't.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I said, cause I was looking for any friendly face I could find. And that's damn whole. But, uh, so, uh, That night, we haven't talked about my family. I try not, well, I take it back. In the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended, 911 hangups, stuff like that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But at that point in time, I'd bought my wife, everybody's pretty familiar now with the burner phone, but I'd bought my wife a phone that came back to nothing so my undercover phone could call that phone, not violating the operational security. Right. That night, Joe, when I called her, I always call her every night. And again, five, seven in the morning, didn't matter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And it might just be she wakes up and says, hello. And I go, hey, I just want you to know I'm done heading back to the hotel room. Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I'll call you. It might be that quick. That night when I called her, the first thing she said to me was, are you OK? She felt it. I said, yeah, why?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So maybe like every five crack rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves. Um, And maybe we want to get them, build a case on them, kind of try to climb it up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So say what you will, but damn. Wow. Yeah. Apparently my old shit signal. Apparently I don't need Verizon or anything because it went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas. But it's just... I mean, that's just one of the little, one of the things that happen and it just takes a toll on you over time. I can only imagine. Yeah, so I'll get you to the next day. We do the deal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Clothesline doesn't show up. Well, that pisses me off. Wait a minute, you're supposed to be my boy and you took me into the damn basement and stripped me at gunpoint, but you can't come up, you don't show up the next day and help with this thing? Again, I'm taking it personally, I shouldn't. So everybody knew there was a beef. Let's just fast forward a month or two. I go back home.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We did not do any meetings at the Long Wharf Marriott. You know what I mean? Why would you like to meet me at Legal Seafoods tonight? My fellow criminals, you know? Yeah. So I'm at this cantina and clothesline walks in. Now, you got to remember the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement. And he looked a little rough, like a little whipped, you know, like he'd been disheveled.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And he says, hey, man, can I talk to you for a minute? And the first thing I said was no. And he says, why? I said, because the last time you asked me that shit, I ended up naked in the basement. No. So he says, no, it's like that. So we went back in the kitchen and we're talking. And what we learned or what I learned and the case team learned is when we upped the ante to do that drug deal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And again, a lot of those outlaws were pushing for it because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for? Cheaper product, higher quality. That's just more money for you, right? So he was really – especially Joe Dogg. They wanted to get a pipeline. They wanted to get an introduction to the cartel so they could get quality dope, you know, and have a very successful business.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So I'm in there with him, and I'm ready to go to blows if we have to. And he starts talking to me, and he says, you know, Scott, he said – what had happened, what I was gonna tell you, is that the call went up to the top, and the top to us meant Milwaukee Jack was the national president. And this this makes a hard argument for when they say it's not an organization. You do your own stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We only DM each other. Nobody knows each other's business. Well, then how did it go to the top of the outlaws who said, has this guy ever really been checked? And they go back and say, well, we've done like six to eight jobs with him and we're not in bracelets, meaning handcuffs. He said, I don't care. Check them. So now that's when I get stripped in the basement.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I learned that, and this is what Clothesline tells me. And you gotta remember, my mindset is screw this guy, I'm ready to go to blows. I'm not gonna look like a bitch. And he says, man, I know I was born to be an outlaw. I'm either gonna die young or die in jail. He said, and these are my brothers. He said, but I really don't have a lot of friends.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And he said, ones that I know would take a bullet for me and I'd take a bullet for them. And that's when I start looking at his face and I'm going, oh shit, don't you say it, man. Don't you say it. And he says, and you're one of those people. So now I'm like, ugh. And he says, the reason he didn't show up is because he felt so bad for what he had to do to me in the basement that night.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
He got so obliterated that night. He was passed out through the whole thing. drug deal the next day. So that night when I called my wife, she says, hello. And my first words are, or she's like, how's it going? How did it go? My first words are, I am a dick. I go, I am such a dick. This guy loves me. He cares about me. Now that's the real side. That's the human side.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Now there might be, you know, we, we don't train that way. We tell you, look, that's not you, but I'm still human. I'm out there. I'm out there. I'm surprised we hadn't said this yet. A lot of times if I'm speaking or teaching or whatever, I'll put up there, what does undercover mean to you? So I'll ask you, what do you think undercover is?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I get that a lot. I get lying. We hear acting. You're a character. Here is the definition of undercover work. You are building relationships that you're going to betray. Then that sucks.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Now, don't get me wrong. If you haven't done anything illegal. Well, then, no, I'm really not. I mean, I guess I'm still betraying you because you thought I was somebody else, but we're not arresting you. I've done undercovers like that. Those happen all the time. You're in there for five months, and you're like, there's nothing federal here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I mean, they're just – they're within their constitutional rights, and you just bail. But you have to – You are basically building and betraying relationships, especially if you're gathering evidence of criminal activity. And you need to know how you're going to deal with that. Rationalize that in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche. And that's tough.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'll fast forward you a little bit. I crashed on that case for a three-year period. I'd been going nonstop. And I'm not saying I'm tough. I'm at my threshold. I think your threshold changes every day, just like your comfort zone. Some days I take off jogging at 54 years old. Sometimes I take off running and I go, it's going to be a damn good day. I feel light, fluffy, floating on the cloud.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Some days I take off running and I go, how long have I been running? Two minutes. Damn, it's going to be a long day. So your comfort zone changes. I think your threshold changes, but I go into great detail in the book, but For three years, I had been doing too much. Well, I say doing too much, but even when I moved to Tennessee, I did too much again. I just learned how to balance it better.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'm a workaholic. I love working. I love doing it all. SWAT call-outs, running tactical schools here, case agent first, building cases, putting bad people in jail, undercover. But I had stopped taking days off because I didn't want to give management a reason to tell me I couldn't go do an undercover.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'd just work through the weekend or be undercover through the weekend, come back, type up all my stuff, then run my cases, teaching all the tactics and firearms for McAllen and Brownsville residents, which is just satellite offices out of San Antonio. I own SWAT, running firearms for them, stuff like that. And I just stopped taking care of myself.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So we get to a point to where, like I said, in great detail in the book, but just picture this. I already gave you a little bit of a blurb on the undercover school, right? Two weeks, no days off. Let's just say I'm there for 10 days. Well, once we put you to bed. We're probably going to hang out and drink a little bit because you're my peer. And it's also therapy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And it's good to know that you're not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the same thing you are. And there's a lot of bonding that goes on there. But that means for 10 days, I'm not getting a whole lot of sleep. And I've probably got too much alcohol in my system, if we're being transparent.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But then I leave straight from that undercover school and I go right into an undercover. And let's just say I land in Sturgis, which I did. And the Hells Angels shoot five outlaws at point blank range. My first day there. Like I hadn't been in town like an hour. Now, there's two old ladies, two patch members, and a probate, but they're all shot. They confirmed it was Hell's Angels.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We're talking paralyzed from the waist down for life. We're talking crushed clavicles. I mean, not just like a zinger. And now you're back doing that for days on end. And when I would get home, I would stop taking care of myself. I got to the point to where I was a walking zombie. I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. I was taking hydroxy cuts like crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
making the strongest coffee I could possibly make. And I'd drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep. So what I learned through the book process, even though I'd learned a lot already, I found out from my wife, I was a ghost, man. I'd come home from SWAT, work, undercover, whatever. I'd be on the couch and my daughters would be on my lap. I'd help put them to bed.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But my wife couldn't even ask me a simple question about The bills. You know, hey, there's this bill. Do whatever you got. I can't think. I just need to. And she wanted to do everything she could to support me and just let me veg and not put anything on my plate. So we get to the end of the outlaw case, and I'm starting to crash. Didn't know it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
If you are a certified undercover and you are active in the FBI, you mandatorily have to be psychologically assessed for, Twice a year. That whole thing is called Safeguard. I'm not outing anything. It's out there. It's on the Internet. But the Safeguard process was created by Joe Pistone. Donnie Brasco.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It was created by Joe and a former agent who was – his background was a clinical psychologist, Steve Bann. And they came up with this because Joe – you got to remember when Joe was undercover, there was no attorney general guidelines. There probably wasn't even an operational procedure manual for undercovers. It was like – Here's money. Here's your recorders. Go make a case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
He was one of the first 25 undercovers in the FBI in 1972. That happened right after Hoover left. Hoover did not believe in the undercover technique. But as soon as he was out, they started working undercover. But the safeguard process goes like you take a bunch of psychological tests. And then you're going to sit down. You're going to take a break.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It's going to put a bunch of numbers into some charts. You're going to sit down with a clinical psychologist. They may be an agent for the FBI or they may be contracted in. They're going to go over all that stuff with you. They're going to dive deep into your psyche. Try to. And then after that, you're going to sit down with somebody like a Pistone or an experienced undercover.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Because you know the old saying, you can't bullshit a bullshitter? Well, we used undercover, UC, as a verb. You can't UC a UC. So I remember going to take one of the tests as an open-ended sentence. You have to fill in the blanks. So I'm on my way to Daytona at a world run with the outlaws, still rolling heavy in the case. And I stopped off at an undisclosed location to do the assessment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I remember, like the open-ended sentence might be, men are, and you got to finish it. I'd always say men. Women are. I'd put women. They'd be like, what do you mean? I'd go, you know what I mean. I'm not up in that can of worms. No, we're different. How's that? But there was one that said, the last time I relaxed, I. And I couldn't think anything. Wow. Nothing. And that's not me BSing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'm like sitting there at the table going. Well, I work out all the time. I'm like, but that's not relaxing. It's not like I'm namaste and listen to Yanni and shit. I'm like, I'm trying to throw 45s across the gym, you know. But I'm like, so I just made up a story. Even at that moment, I thought, man, that's really screwed up. Wow. But I was like, yeah, and a big deal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And, uh, again, way more detail in the book. But the thing that, the thing that happened to me was, uh, I ended up out, not partying without laws and Mongols all night. Um, I wake up the next morning. I mean, you can hear and feel the whiskey and eggs squishing in your belly. You know that. And I'm like, I just feel disgusted. I'm going to start working out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So I'm in the hotel room doing, before P90 came out, but kind of that thing. Burpees, mountain climbers, push-ups, air squats, sit-ups, all this stuff. And I came up, and by the way, this is after I hit the inhaler. took a decongestant, antihistamine, three hydroxy cuts, two cups of coffee. I don't know if there's anything else in there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And that was like the state and local. Everybody's a little different, but three buys hit them with a search warrant kind of thing, something like that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I later learned that that was basically a cocktail for an anxiety attack. I was like, who knew? It doesn't make a lot of sense. But I had an anxiety attack. I was trying to work out. I came up for air, hyperventilated, forgot all about combat breathing, forgot about paper bags. But did I stop? Did I say, man, that's really screwed up? No.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I took a nap, got up, started drinking Jack Daniels and went back. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I didn't know the whole backstory.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You can. Or you can do – there's all kinds of – but you could do like a wall off. In other words, not let everybody see us pick you off, you know, so you don't get burned. Bring you in, talk to you, and this is what we got on you. We're trying to figure out who it is, and it's just traditional law enforcement. You're trying to find more intel and work your way up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And you offer them a community or something like that? Depends. Some people do it out of the goodness of their heart. Really? Yeah. I mean, it's rare, but, I mean, you can do it. Hey, I'm patriotic. I want to – Help clean this up. These people are trying to sell me dope. I don't like them. I can go buy it for you. A lot of times we're paying a source or they could be working off a charge.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I don't know. I mean, we could come in. Let's just say there's six investigators on Northern or Southern Command narcotics in Greenville County. You might be one of my partners and we come in and you go, hey, I got a source. He's going to go make a buy tonight. You might hop in the car with him. It just happens. It's almost a daily thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But in the San Antonio division, the agents and stuff knew me, or the SWAT people, they knew I'm the undercover guy. And they called me up because while he was in Bexar County in San Antonio, he approached somebody in jail, solicited them to kill the kid, or to find somebody that could kill the kid. A lot of these murder for hire plans are stupid, but that actually wasn't too bad of a plan.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Like, if the kid's... These cases are tough. They suck. They're atrocious. I mean, it's a waste of oxygen in my personal opinion. But it's usually a kid from a broken home. It's after the fact. It's an adult versus a kid. But he knew he wasn't going to do well in prison. So he approached somebody in prison who then, as most people who are serving time do, they are trying to get credit to get out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And that person called his attorney, and that attorney called the FBI, and they worked it out to where he introed me. So I drive up to Bexar County. I sign in because he put me on the list. I go in, and I'm in. I'm in the phone bank. It's all stainless steel. You can't hear nothing but baby mamas and everybody's screaming and cussing and pissed off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And here I am trying to get this recording through this glass. And I'm talking to the guy and I said, you know who I am? He's like, yeah. I said, well, I hope you do because you put me on your list to come see you. You know what I do? And he's like, yes. I was like slow rolling. I didn't know. I didn't want to scare him off. So I was like, you know, I'm in the extermination business.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And he's like, yeah, I kill pests for a living. He said, yep, that's exactly what I wanted. And I had a picture of the kid. Of course, we're working with a family on this. But I had a picture of the kid just walking like a surveillance photo. And I put it up on the window and I said, is this the pest that you want taken care of? Something to that effect.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And clearly on the recording, thank you, Lord, it picked it up. He said, that's him. So you're not going to call a bug him. Right. So what I found out is I met him twice, just a two meet thing. But what I found out from the solicitor's office in Bexar County, it was mostly women working it because it was the the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And Joe, when I went walking in there and they're like, this is Scott. I mean, they all stood. It's like some TV show. They stood up and they started clapping. I'm like, I don't understand. And this isn't me chest beating. That's not what I'm trying. But it's like, what is going on? They're like, thank you so much. You're so. And I'm like, I appreciate it, but I'm doing my job.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
What they told me is that guy had walked on four molestation cases before. And he also walked on some possession of a. Somehow he got out of possession of child pornography stuff. But when he found out, when they approached him and said I was an undercover and that they got him, he pled guilty to hiring me to kill the kid and pled guilty to the molestation of the kid.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first time, he threw me off guard. Because he was like, yeah, yeah. And I go, all right, well, what do you got? And he goes, hey, I'd like you to kill the rest of his family, too. They're in Wisconsin. And I actually giggled a little bit because it threw me off. I went, well. I'm not above traveling, but let's deal with one pest at a time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'm thinking in my head, damn, man. But he knew, as most pedophiles do, you're not going to do well in prison.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, he just gets to walk because there's no witness to show up to trial.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Right? Yeah. And then being around that stuff, like I've had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent, they come in, they assign you as the training agent, and they might be working that stuff. And I will tell you, for me personally— That's tough to work for me. It was before I even had kids. I remember seeing like five images. We hit a guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
He was actually a professor at University of Texas, Pan Am. And he was so vigilant. I mean, he had like... He had all the child porn videos broken down by ethnicity, age, sex. Oh, Jesus Christ. I mean, you could say, I want Asian male 11. And he would have, I mean. Oh, my God. And it was just sick. Now, did he come from a messed up thing? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Turns out his mother had molested him and his brother. We tie them in the basement. Tie them to each other and make them have sex with each other. Oh, my God. But it's horrific. But break the chain, man. Break the chain.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So, yeah. I saw like five photos, and I was messed up for probably a week or two. A professor. Yeah. My wife would try to touch me. Not even just to be in it. I mean, just to touch. And I'd be like, uh-uh. No. Mm-mm-mm-mm. I'm like, I can't, man. I got to get this shit out of my head. Wow. Now, later on in Undercovers, I could be the guy to drive and pick you up. I could show you pictures.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
No. If you see a picture of me, this is me. But for the Academy, I mean, it's a cheesy, thin... Fuzzy mustache. Can't go past the crease of your lip high and tight. You're going to get your hair cut at the PX in Quantico. It was usually foreign ladies that were cutting your hair. No matter how I had to explain what I wanted, I got the same haircut every time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Is this what you want kind of thing? But to like sit there and look through that stuff, my brain's not cut out for that. But there are those who are. And in the FBI, if you're looking at that, you have to be psychologically assessed as well, as you should.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah. Yeah. Human trafficking. Now, I can sway on some of the human trafficking stuff because I've seen human trafficking from the border all the way to the hotel room. Um, if it's, it's rarely a hooker ever on free will or an escort of on free will, but if they're out there doing, I don't know, it gets a little muddy on some of the trafficking stuff for me personally, but it's still trafficking.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They got brought in when they were under age. Now they're a product of what they've been forced to do. You know, that's a, it's very sad, but as far as the child porn stuff goes, it's insane. I've worked with some, they call them ICACs, Crimes Against Children, and there's so much out there. But there was so much at once. This is just me in Tennessee. I'm with them.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They have so many hits on whatever dark web thing it is. It might be Discord. I'm trying to think of what it used to be. But there's all kinds of stuff like that, that they'll go to these, what they believe or what are encrypted apps that are based overseas. So they don't think that the FBI or feds here, the alphabet boys and girls, can do subpoenas and get that stuff. That's why they use those.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Now, does that mean that everybody on Discord is bad? Absolutely not. Telegram, no. But do people go there to do bad things? Yep.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And it's just like you could go. I remember them showing me stuff as the undercover coordinator. I'm over there and I'm looking at stuff and they're showing me what all the hits they've got right now. Just people hitting and through the databases. You could do knock and talks every freaking day, all day long. Hey, man, how you doing? Hey, not if we look at your computer, you might not get in there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, or just mom and pops farming out their kids. Oh, my God. Yeah. Sex across state lines. Oh. Yeah, not good at all. There's just... Like, again, I mentioned McAllen several times. This isn't undercover stuff, but case agent stuff. I mean, I might look at doing a book on case agent stuff. I was down there working the cartel with me and the people I worked with.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
That was back when Ozeal Cardenas ran the Gulf Cartel. So it was violent. Violent as you know what. But there was some kind of SOP. There was like a procedure. But, I mean, when I try to tell people, I'm like, look, I don't care whether you're left or right. I meet all kinds of people. If you're extreme left, I'm probably going to tell you you're an idiot.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
If you're extreme right, I know you're an idiot because I've been with them. I'm like, I just want to bring it. What's so funny is you start here, and you go far left, and they're like, I'm a socialist. I'm a socialist. I want everything for free. And you start here on the far right, and they're like, I want Hitler. I want Hitler. But that's socialism. You get here, it's the same shit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They just want stuff for free. I want all whites. Well, that'll fix everything. You know, it's just it's insane. But down on the border, you tell people you're like, man, they just I'm not saying that I'm not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico and stuff. But it a lot of it runs on corruption. A lot of it runs on money. And they do not value life like we do. I mean, man, they chop heads off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You take it up a little bit here and not so much here. Oh, yeah, yeah. You're like, all right. There you go. I guess this is what we're doing. But one thing I noticed at the state level was we would all go back then. The South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in Columbia, South Carolina. So we would go there and get certified, but in your county.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It's Al Qaeda stuff. I mean, they're sawing heads off. You find a van full of eight heads. We weren't kidnappers and extortions down there all the time back then. One of the cases, OZL, we thought it was a wives' tale, and this is sick, so I apologize to people that think this is way gross, but it's real. The first one isn't that gross. He had a line he would feed people to.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
A lion. And that was the rumor. And then I can't remember if they went up in a fixed wing or a helicopter, but they flew over the line. And somebody was asking the other one, hey, what are all those bones? And they were like, ayo pollo, you know, chicken. Well, that's a big-ass chicken. That chicken looks like a femur, you know? So there's that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But the one that was really sick is when they would kidnap you. Like if you lost a load or they thought you stole something or you didn't pay your quotas, because even as an undocumented special interest alien, whatever you want to call it, illegal alien smuggler, you had to pay quotas to the cartel to smuggle through their territory. Same thing with dope.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Uh, so I was already learning that gift to gab, um, and fight techniques and stuff like that. And then I got, I became a cop because when I was in college, I took a course, I'm taking electives. I went to college. So I'd have four more years to figure out what I was going to do because I didn't know what I was doing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
If you got behind on that, they kidnap you. Same M.O., Three suburbans pull up somewhere in South Texas, jump out on such and such corner. Everybody's in black BDUs. They grab you. That was the safest. They were the enforcement cartel. They'd take you over, beat you, start calling the family saying, we want $100,000, $300,000, whatever.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We'd start brokering the deal because we have border liaison officers, and we would do cross trainings with military and police in Mexico. So the border liaison officer calls and goes, hey, it's such and such time of day on this corner. Three suburbans pulled up. The guy's name is this. It was this time of day. 30 minutes to an hour later, we get a call back. They got him. What's the deal?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
He brought a load back, and it was missing 100 grand. Okay. So now I'm in the house with the family going, okay, they want 300 grand. Well, we don't have it. Well, they don't have it. They want $100,000. We don't have it. Well, what do you got? We got $60,000. What else they got? Remember my V8 4x4? They got a Suburban. How many miles are on it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And here we are at midnight rolling the Suburban over the bridge with $60,000 to get the sun back. So one of the, we thought was a wife's tale, is that Oziel had a, I don't know what the politically correct term is these days, but a midget. Small person? I don't know. But the rumor was back then that he had a midget who was very well endowed, and he would rape people for the cartel.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You can let that soak in for a little bit. Jesus. Uh, my comedy starts coming out. I'm like, how do you get the small person? I don't know. That's his thing. So, uh, we all thought it was BS. And then there was a Christmas Eve. Uh, we started getting calls. I was actually driving, uh, to Arizona for vacation, but I was on the phone calling sources and calling all the other agents, uh,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
This guy had basically carjacked a car in Rio Grande City. So directly across the river is Camargo. So he gets in there. He didn't look at the back seat. There's an infant. Now the cartel's pissed at him for bringing heat, and they are beating him.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I mean, how many ways can I shape... I'm in the same county, and you're going out here making buys. How many times can I change my car, change my outfit, change my facial hair, the hair on my head, until everybody starts knowing I'm a narc? Right. You know? Because when you're in that local environment, and I mean, I'm talking Greenville, South Carolina.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I mean, they used to hit him with the clubs, throw kilos, bricks at him, cigarette burns, cigar burns real big, battery cables, stuff like that, threatening him. And we got him back. But when he came across the bridge, my peers called me and go, holy shit, Scott, it's real. I go, what are you talking about? This dude is bawling.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
When the call came in and the cartel was like, okay, let this one go, the midget was in the room. That guy was crying when he came back across the bridge. He was getting ready to get raped.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Good. Yeah, when she called me, when the assistant solicitor called me and said, Hey, he played guilty. He got, he got 20 for, I can't remember which was for which, but he got 20 years for, uh, I believe the most molestation in 10 for hiring me to kill him. So, and then they had to do state of Texas with 85%. Um, so yeah, it was going to be a tough ride for him. Pardon the pun.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But, uh, yeah. So crazy stuff, man. I mean, some of that neo-Nazi stuff was just insane. How'd you get involved in that? Well, uh, number one, I go where my skillset takes me. Number two, we kind of go to what the shift is in the FBI. Were people doing a lot of biker club stuff anymore? Not at that time. I was a criminal investigator for pretty much my entire career.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But towards the end, in Tennessee, I switched over to the Joint Terrorism Task Force. And I really did it because I was having some disagreements. Some would be likely, but I was having disagreements with management and my M.O. had always been, even though I'd burned myself out before. Once I got to Tennessee, I set up accountability buddies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I set up tripwires and stopped saying yes to everything and made ways to relax and balance and get myself back. Um, but towards the end, uh, we, I switched over to joint chairman task force because again, my MO was try to be above average on your squad. Um, and then if you're kicking butt on stats and stuff like that, then, uh, maybe they won't say no to let me go to the undercover.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Maybe they won't say no to let me go undercover. put on this SWAT school or this SWAT call out. And that was what I did. But that wasn't working for me in Tennessee anymore. And I went to the head of the division and requested to be moved. So I went to Joint Chessman Task Force.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Miami might be a little bit different, or New York City. But you're going to court a lot, and people are seeing you in court. And then, so how do you roll out there? So a lot of it turns into just... Running sources.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And my skill set kind of led right into that domestic terrorism stuff because it was like in the state of Tennessee, you have Aryan Nations, which was the Tennessee Department of Corrections, TDOC prison gang, but it's white supremacy. So as a case agent, I started working that stuff. And then I just started getting more exposed to those kinds of cases.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So now when the canvases start coming up or we're running an undercover op ourselves, those cases are coming in and it's like, okay, I'll do that one. Unless anybody's got a disagreement, you know, and that's what I started doing. That's how we kind of got into those. Cause we started getting more threats, you know, after the Charlottesville stuff, now it's really getting kind of on the radar.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They're like, man, this is, maybe we should be putting more, Maybe we should be putting the FBI saying maybe we should be putting more resources to this domestic terrorism threat. And that's what I started getting. I mean, I would go into I kind of mentioned it earlier, but a neo-Nazi group. But it's mainly online. And here I am for five months reading post after post.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And if I woke up after six hours of sleep and I was 1,500 posts behind, I'd rewind it and read them all for five months because I didn't want to miss anything, me personally. I didn't want to miss anything or anything bad happen because I missed something. But after five months and maybe meeting them once or twice, it's all First Amendment protected. They weren't doing anything to cause violence.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They're just preparing for the day. And then when the day happens, then they'll be ready. But again, I talk to people overseas, Canada, whatever. I have to explain. I'm like, look, in the United States, we have a constitution. And your First Amendment is freedom of speech. I said, you can walk out in the street right here and say, I hate every, say, a racial slur. I hope every racial slur dies.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
To me, I believe developing and running sources is hand-in-hand with undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer, and I don't have a felon on my record, but they do, they're still the ones we're wiring up and going in to get the evidence. So a lot of it over the last... many years with the defund the police and the black eye. It's hard to recruit.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
That's not illegal. As you know, you've seen it. You can burn American flags. Freedom of speech. Try that in China. Let me know how that works for you. Death to China. Light the flag on fire. I'm not sure how long you'll last, right? Not long. But that's the hard thing about working domestic terrorism is there's no federal domestic terrorism statute.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So you're trying to see what crimes are they committing, if any, and what can we do to get them off the street if they're planning bad things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So I'll just jump to the base. Okay. Because the base was the one that's kind of the beginning and the end of the book. They were actively recruiting. I mean, I was in the Klan, too, for a little while for the job. I've got to be careful how I say it, right? Yeah. Back when I was in the Klan, we were good old boys. But they were recruiting openly online, the base was.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And the base is an accelerationist group. And that's what I, again, great detail in the book, in the podcast. But the thing is, is Most people hear white supremacy, they think hoods and robes and crosses on fire, right? That's not this, man. These are – this is why they're called accelerationists. There's a book out there called Siege written by James Mason, longtime white supremacist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It's a weird book. It's basically articles and interviews all just shoved together. But this guy kind of idolized and interviewed people like Charles Manson. What a great role model. Yeah. I mean, if you're looking. But he created a group called Atomwaffen. And this is what accelerationism is. Because when I go to infiltrate the base, I'm just answering stuff they're putting out there. Emails.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They're posting on Gab. Save your race. Join the base. We're a survivalist group. Email us at thebase1 at protonmail.com. So I start answering that stuff. After about a week or so of emails back and forth asking me everything, my ethnicity, my height, weight, when was my red pill moment, which they kind of use the matrix thing there. So if they say, when were you red pilled?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
As a Christ follower, it's the same thing as when I was baptized or when I got saved, right? So if you're an accelerationist or that level of neo-Nazi and they say, what was your red pill moment? You need to know it because it's kind of like the big deal. That's when you said, I hate all of the people. So after about a week or so of emails, I get on.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They tell me to download the Wire app, similar to WhatsApp. You can call and talk on it and stuff like that and create groups all over. So I do like about an hour and 15-minute interview panel of like four or five people asking me all kinds of stuff. I answered the best I could, best I prepared for. And then they gave me a 24-hour rest period because they said, now that you know what we are,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We're going to give you 24 hours to think about if you want to be a part of this, and we want 24 hours to think about it. But this is what they told me accelerationism was. They said accelerationists, they call it siege culture, kind of parlaying off the book, but they do not believe there's a political solution to save the white race.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or from man-made events, and they want to speed that up. The group I was in was calling that Boogaloo, the Boogaloo. And everything always ends with an ethnostate. Now, it's not saying the groups that I was in, they weren't going to take over the entire United States.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But the group I was in, one section was looking at property and land in the Appalachian Mountains. One section of the base was looking at the upper peninsula of Michigan. One section of the base had property in the Pacific Northwest. So you get in there. You start learning that ideology. But again, in the beginning, I'm just ingratiating.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I mean, we know they've been saying crazy stuff online, but is it illegal per se? No. But are they planning on taking steps to do some bad things? And that goes back to that domestic terrorism culture. You go in Telegram or whatever, and you've got your – Your Terrence and your Brevicks, and they're in there, 4chan, 8chan, and they're posting right before they go and commit all the murders.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It's hard enough to get people to fill the uniform slots. So you really don't have anybody doing undercover. Most of your smaller departments that I've taught or talked to or learned from, they're just running sources.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You know, here I am. I'm going live. Watch this. Yeah. But imagine being in law enforcement and trying to look at all these thousands of posts and trying to figure out, well, which one's actually going to follow through? Which one is seriously planning on doing something? So you always got to stay vigilant and keep going after it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Well, per the siege culture, they like to do guerrilla warfare tactics. So they're against the Charlottesville stuff, being in a group, picket signs, screaming racial slurs, all this stuff. They're against that. They're like, that's stupid. Number one, you're making yourself a target. You're not doing anything.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It's more guerrilla warfare tactics where, let's say over here in Austin, power grid goes down. Over here, train gets derailed. Over here, water system's poisoned. Anything to create chaos and killing of anybody left. Anti-fash. Non-whites. Very anti-Semitic. Very.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Like, way more than... It kind of opened my eyes when I started getting into some of these neo-Nazis, because for the most part, I thought... When I thought racism, I thought white against black, right? But these neo-Nazis groups I was in, man, they are anti-Semitic, man. They cannot stand Jews. Wow. It was like... Like it's sickening if you listen to it. But again, they want that Hitler.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They want Hitler back. I mean, some of these guys were like talking about concave earth, hollow earth, Hitler's still alive. He's in hollow earth. He's with giant white men who are Anglo white with red hair and 15 plus foot tall. And I'm like, and I go, so where are these 15 foot tall white guys? Yeah. And they're like, well, they're in Middle Earth with Hitler. They're waiting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Come on, man. Let's do this. Let's take this thing down. And sometimes I'm just comical with them. You're like, hey, we're neo-Nazis. Yeah. We're going to get to ethnostate. Yeah. We're ready for the boogaloo. Yeah. We're building our kit. Yeah. Who's going to be Hitler? And everybody goes, there's only going to be one, buddy. Are we going to fight it out right now? Who's going to win this thing?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But what happened with the base is a lot of them were into the pagan and i i say this loosely i have plenty of friends that are pagan um satru uh and and they are great people love what do you mean by pagan So there's different pantheons, but the most common one is Norse mythology. It's basically the Marvel universe.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, a lot of it. Yeah. It's the pendulum swings, right? Or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to apply and they've got felons on their record. And we're like, bro, you can't be a cop. You got a felon on your record, you know? But I remember thinking...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, Odin, Thor, whatever. Really? Yeah, oh yeah, man. Wait, there's a church for that? Well, I don't want to say a church per se, but yeah, they'll hold blot. A blot is – just think Viking kind of stuff. The ones that do it that are serious, they're upset that white supremacists have taken their stuff and used it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that Norse mythology too. He had – looking for Thor's hammer or whatever, the Holy Grail biblical and all this stuff. But – There's Christian identity, which is making a comeback in the white supremacy realm, not to be confused with Christianity.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Christian identity is, if you can wrap your mind around this, a lot of them have a dual seed line belief. So they take the story of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the forbidden tree. They take that story and they say, okay, it's still the same, except... The fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent, who is a man of color, also known as Satan.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, their offspring is Cain, and they are the mud race from then on. That's what they call them, mud race, non-white. Mud race from then on down. But the procreation from Adam and Eve is Abel, and that's the pure white race. That's just one of the many belief systems. So when you see, I know, right? Yeah, I'm like shaking my head like, what the fuck?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Like, how do they get this information? So as far back as that I know, I'm sure it came out earlier, but there was the Aryan Nation, Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fair and all that stuff. And they taught that. They taught the Christian identity. Church of Jesus Christ Christian. And they take that and twist it, you know, as if Jesus is just a white guy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, some of those, yes. And the Christian identity was kind of in the Klan belief that I was in for a short moment. But the pagan, just like I said that the Christian identity takes the Bible and twists it, then the paganism is taking Norse mythology or if you're an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, and they're twisting it toward their white supremacy. And that's not what paganism really is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Again, I've got friends that do it. They're upset with white supremacists. using their stuff. But then again, in the base, there was a guy who wasn't a Satru priest, and he led the first blot I ever attended, BLOT, which is kind of like the worship ceremony for pagans. I mean, we're down there with our shirts off, wiping blood on our chest,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Drinking mead as if we're Vikings and then praying to our gods. And they would take wood, carve the wood and they would carve runes and like white supremacy symbols in it. And we would cut ourselves and bleed on the runes and then set that on fire and pray until the fire went out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Wouldn't it be kind of cool if South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database where it says, hey, Scott's skill set is biker, you know, riding motorcycles, can go in a biker bar, whatever, strip clubs, this, that, and the other. Maybe Charleston County needs somebody.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah. How many of these guys are out there in the world? I don't know. I mean, there's academia and stuff. They're like, there's millions of white supremacists and Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow. I'm not going to say that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Just somebody disagreeing or having a different belief system.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Clearly she's not a Christ follower because if you follow the Bible, it lays out what marriage is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Yeah, I'd say. I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but I'd say thousands. Thousands. Because a lot of times, if you're in that community and you're looking, let's say this is a Telegram channel over here, and it's Terror Wave or whatever it is before it was taken down, and you see all these monikers, like I was Pell Horse in the base. I was Pell Horse.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
That was my moniker. And then you see Pestilence, and you see TMB, the Militant Buddhist, and you see Helter Skelter, and you say, well, you might go to another group of Maybe they've changed their moniker, but you start realizing, hey, did you used to be pestilence and other channel? Yeah, that's me. All right. You know what I mean? But what's scary is like in that base case.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
As I said before, I'm a tactical instructor, firearms instructor. I'm an alert instructor, which is right near where we're at right now in San Marcos, Texas. And but you can't go undercover and help these people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
help these guys train or help them get better because they might be doing bad things so I go in I had my whole backstory former skinhead former biker and my skill set was like hand-to-hand combat could I shoot yeah but I let them lead me we went out there and the first time we did tactical and firearms training it was led by a 19 year old kid and it was good It was good. And he's not military.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Wouldn't that be cool if I could just shoot down there and make buys for Charleston County but go back? Then that way nobody knows me in Charleston County.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I'm like, I'm watching. I'm like, where the hell did you learn this? So a lot of stuff happens on gaming systems because they're so realistic now. Wow. Yeah. I mean, these kids, you can go on and if you got your mic on, you might get your butt handed to you by an 11 year old kid who's telling you to clear the hard corner and slice the pie. They're using the same verbiage.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I'm like, holy crap. You know, virtual world meets real world. Only problem is, is in the virtual world, you get to respawn. Not so much in the real world, you know. I'm gonna respawn now. But yeah, he led it, and they were shooting fast and accurate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It wasn't the best, they were mistakes, but I was impressed with how safe they were, the two guys running it, TMB and Pestilence, because that was a concern for me. Like if you could see the aerial footage, like when we first go out there and they're shooting, I'm way back behind them, because I'm like, I don't know how these people are guns.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I've seen plenty of bad shooters doing some stupid things on the line. And then we start working like that. So I start gaining their trust, do a couple of blots, hikes, drinking, rucking, whatever. And then it starts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We're finding out a little bit more, not necessarily necessarily anything criminal, except for the fact that there was a Canadian who was part of their basically it's like it would be like their National Guard. Um, but he got doxxed and for the listeners that don't know, doxxing basically is being outed. So a lot of these accelerationist groups are big on putting up flyers and stickers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what they do. You get certified in the FBI and you can go around the world. So what was your initial job in the FBI? You are a case agent. When you get hired, the only responsibility you have really is you're a case agent. And that means you investigate, you do your own cases. I did that the entire career.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Uh, they go by and they slap up stickers everywhere. You know, join the, uh, save your race, join the base with a QR code. You scan that QR code. It takes you right to bit shoot to a video of us, uh, of a propaganda recruitment video we filmed in Georgia.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Of us shooting and everything. And so there's one in Canada. He puts up flyers. Somebody answers it to make, again, it's more in-depth in the book. But he meets this guy. The guy does the same panel kind of thing I did. But then he gets petted face-to-face. So when you get vetted face-to-face, it's going to be a little bit more intense.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They do a face-to-face vetting of this guy, and he says the punished snake was the moniker. His name is Patrick Matthews. He was up there, and he vetted him face-to-face and said he's good to go. So after about a week to two weeks tops in the main chat group, this dude bails.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And it turns out that he was a journalist in Canada who went on his own and met Patrick Matthews and infiltrated, at least to a certain degree, the base. And then he puts out in a big news article up there that this guy is Patrick Matthews. And so Pat, our CMP, comes to his house, takes his guns. He gets booted from the National Guard thing, loses his job.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
and they they lose him they find his truck near the border of the united states so we're all looking for him and you have to realize that on the base case let's just say you've got 40 targets well they're all over the world a lot of them in the united states well every one of those fbi field offices are open separate cases but we're all trying to work together because it's the same group and uh
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We get to a point to where – I'm sorry. We were looking for Patrick Matthews, and there's an unbelievable case agent. We had several on the case, but Nate Plew was running the case out of Seattle because the leader of the base had property in Seattle's territory. But there was a case agent named Rasheed. who's out of Baltimore, and he's running for the guys there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Rasheed was able to figure out by some unbelievable phone analysis when Patrick came into the United States, and we're tracking. We're all looking for him. We think we might know where he's at, and I show up at a training in North Georgia, in Rome, Georgia, and he's there. When I pulled up, I see vehicles, and I'm counting heads under the barn, and I'm like, there's one extra person.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I know that's that person's car. And I said, well, I'll see when I walk up. I walk up and by then his hair had all grown out and had a red bushy beard. And he's like, as soon as he started talking, it was a Canadian accent. And I was like, hey, man, welcome to the United States, brother. So now we had him there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And now we're starting to find out a little bit more about death plots and this, that, and the other. But is it just drunk talk or are they actually planning on doing something?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And then that's when we get to the – the the big halloween of 2019 hate camp um and there was base members that came in from all over the united states uh and again i've done some pagan blots with them like i said cut yourself i remember the first time i did it i was like damn it why didn't i bring my own knife and uh that when it was time to cut your finger, the tip of their knife was broken.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I'm like, well, I'm not going to slice my damn arm open with my tats. I'm not going to slice my finger open. I'm trying to stab my finger to bleed with a broken tip. Note to self, bring your own knife next time. So I did. But we're doing... Halloween, we're there, and I doze off.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Even when I was doing undercover, I was still a case agent. But I went through the academy. I got New York City as my first office. And New York is the largest office. So they put you kind of like on a rotation. You don't just go straight to a squad. You're going to be like they want you to learn the city.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We've already done hand-to-hand combat, some firearm stuff, had a couple of drinks, and I'm charging my phone in my truck. It's really cold, so I kind of doze off. I wake up to pounding on my window. Pell horse, pell horse, you got to get up. You got to see this. You got to see this. I'm like, what's going on? They're like, man, remember us talking about a sacrifice and a goat? I'm like, yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They go, we got the goat. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
except partying except you know i did three years i was good at partying um but uh i had an elective that was criminal justice and man i really liked it um psychology was always a strong thing for me but it took a back seat and i ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology but during those criminal justice courses i was like
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They want you to learn the ins and outs of having a placard and the bus lane and all that stuff. Or just how to figure out how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel when six lanes go like that, you know. Um, but eventually I went through the rotation and I got placed on the Colombian drug squad.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I mean, I felt weird. I felt weird when I got back. I just, you know, I even texted my pastor. I'm like, I need you to say a prayer. I just felt, I don't know, dirty, something wrong. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So there, then people start learning you were a certified undercover at a state level and this, that, and the other. So then there might be something like say LA takes off a 3000 and we're talking like 2001-ish, 2000, somewhere in there. So they take off, say, 3,000 pounds of weed in L.A., and it was supposed to come to New York. Well, we go with them and say, man, can you send us all the stuff?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They're cutting leads to us saying, hey, it was supposed to go to this address. But we got to build the exact replica box. And it depends on the U.S. attorney working the case. They may want – assistant United States attorney. They may want to just deliver it, and that's good enough. Some may want us to deliver it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
pull away and then they've got a hidden switch or something that notifies us when they open it just to make that case tighter so i started doing cameos on stuff like that and then uh and then i landed an undercover which i don't really talk about in the book because it's classified and we are coming up on 25 years which is usually when they declassify them it's kind of been outed but i just don't talk about it because i don't want to end up in the box the i
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It's this phone. I know. Listen, a lot of these kids were young. I say kids because it was the first alias I ever did where I made myself younger. My whole FBI career, I was always two years older. It was just easy to remember. I mean, I turned 40 with the outlaws.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So when I turned 42 years later in real life and I'm in wherever I was at, McAllen or Tennessee, I'm like, yeah, my other party was a little better. I'm not going to lie. I'm like, you know, the outlaws party was – I mean, thank you guys for throwing me a party, but it's not really nothing compared to when I turned 42 years ago.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But for the base, I had to hustle and get in there fast because we were getting calls from world working partners. Because, again, this is online. You hop in those groups. There's people from South Africa, Australia, UK, Norway. You name it. And they're all because it's online.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Now, they may not be able to get weapons like we got weapons, but they were even planning on flying into the States and doing some hate crime. I mean, I'm sure we'd be doing hate crimes, but a hate camp. But they dive in. And what I saw a lot of is younger, younger guys, outcasts. Yeah. Don't have a job. Can't get a partner. You know, and they just dive down this rabbit hole.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They've probably been bullied and they dive down this rabbit hole of hate. And it's always it seems like it goes back to like gangs and cults and stuff like that. They're trying. It's that need to belong and they want to bring you in. And that's how they get you. Yeah. And then power and then that. Being inclusive, having people with your own like mind.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But that's not just on the white supremacy side. Same thing's happening on the radical Islamist side. They're radicalizing you online. inundating you with videos. You could go into Gab, I don't even know if Gab's still around, but you could go into Gab and there would be a group called 14 Words. Well, that's the 14 words coined by David Lane. It is famous in the white supremacy culture.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It says something to the, I don't have it memorized anymore. As I say, a lot of times when I'm speaking, I go, hey, just so you guys know, I appreciate the questions, but since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Well, yeah, but it's going to be close. I don't want to say I'm not easily shocked. It's just that, I mean, you see so much stuff. It's like, again, it's that proverbial coroner who shows up eating a sandwich where brains are everywhere because they've seen they got to eat. You know, they're just used to it. So there's there's definitely been some wacky things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I mean, on the case agent side, that stuff on the border was pretty wacky. But undercover-wise, these guys, I mean, I don't know about calling them wacky, but they were planning it. I mean, what we did is we uncovered several murder plots. They had found a couple that they believed were an Antifa couple.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
a couple of counties over in in georgia and we went and cased the place the idea was it started it took it took a while to come to fruition because it changed a couple of times but essentially what was agreed upon is that we were all going to be the georgia cell when i say cell it's c-e-l-l which by the way it's probably a good time to say the base in Arabic is Al Qaeda. Oh, wow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
lie detector and have somebody beating me down but i landed that undercover and after about 30 days in san antonio i became they gave me another 60 day extension and i became the primary and because i was there full-time working undercover they transferred me to the san antonio division so the first undercover gig what was your like what was your job like what were you what were you pretending to do
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So Al Qaeda wanted to have three to five man cells, C-E-L-L, I know I got a redneck accent, cells all over the world waiting on that D-Day call. Well, the base, which stands for Al Qaeda, wanted three to five man cells all over the world waiting for the boogaloo. Wow. You've got kids 21-year-old, has no car, has no job, but has an arsenal in his closet.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
He's wearing plate carriers that are the same plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears. It's not cheap stuff. And however they're getting their money, either from parents or whatever they're doing, they are building their kit for what they refer to as the day, the set off of the race war. So we uncovered those murder plots. I remember helter skelter.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We got to postpone it because once we figured out they were trying to kill people, man, we got to slow this thing down and make sure we've got control of it. much like a murder for hire. If you're hiring me to kill somebody, I want to make sure that I got the contract so you're not out trying to find somebody else to kill this person.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So we were riding out there and Helter had not seen the house yet. And Helter, I'll tell you the plan in a second. Helter, we're riding out there and Helter goes, hey, uh, if you don't mind, man, I'd really like to pop my cherry on this one. Well, you and I here pop my cherry. It probably means something different because I was like, what are you talking about?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And then Luke, TMB, told me, he goes, I think he actually wants to participate in the killing. And he said, man, I've been waiting for this for two years. He goes, I actually want to put one of the bullets in their head. And I said, well, it's a .22, .25, whatever, with the silencer on it. It may take more than one. It shouldn't be a big deal.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But the idea was, and this is how much research was done. We're going to go to a campsite. We're going to leave everything electronic there. We're going to leave from there. We're going to have a car that doesn't come back to anybody, rental car, whatever, fake plates, whatever. We're going to go to a pay-by-the-hour motel. We're going to go there.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We're going to scrub and scrub and wash and wash to get any flakes of skin that may be loose to come off. As detailed as Vaseline on your eyebrows, facial hair so you don't drop any kind of DNA. Tape up, kind of like WMD. We're going to tape our jacket to our gloves, our pants to our boots so nothing can leak out. Luke had even done so much research.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
He had read that a lot of people who kill somebody for the first time lose control of their bowels. So he was suggesting we all wear Depends while we go commit the murder. I didn't tell him I'd ever killed anybody, but I looked at him and said, I think I'm okay. I don't need to wear the pins. So that was the thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And then we were going to go into the house, breach our way in, murder whoever's there, because it was like, are there any kids there? Helter was like, I don't have a problem killing a commie kid. Now, Helter kind of looked like a normal guy, had a computer IT job. He said that was a great cover for him because everybody thinks he's just a normal person in society. Wow.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
This is a guy who also told me, he said, again, they want to accelerate the downfall. This guy told me, he said, I voted for Hillary Clinton. And I was like, I'm in here with neo-Nazis. And it threw me off guard. I'm like, why would you do that? And he goes, think about it, bro. He said, we want to accelerate the collapse of society. So she gets in. They usually try to defund the police.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They make our military weaker. There's going to be riots. There's going to be all this stuff. And there's just going to be chaos. It'll help speed up the downfall of society. Wow. That's what they're thinking is. So we've got that murder plot going on, and then you have the Canadian guy and his cell up in – actually, it would have been Can't Go Back, which is – Brian Limley.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
The classified one, again, is classified. Okay. But I will say this. I was a security guard. Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform with a real gun on your hip? And now I'm making it to the FBI, and I'm working third shift as not at the museum, you know, with a flashlight.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
They had a cell up in the Maryland area. And I went up and I trained with them. And they at that point in time, so it would have been coming up to January of 2020. There was going to be a huge Second Amendment rally in Virginia because the governor at the time was pretty liberal, did not like guns and was going to be making a lot of was trying to crack down on guns. Second Amendment.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So the idea of those base members was, what if that's the set off of the boogaloo? What if while all those people are there, you've got three percenters, which is not illegal. You've got militia, which is not illegal, but you've got people wanting to do nefarious things. Most likely you've got cops. What if we just pop a couple of rounds? Nobody knows who's shooting at who and everybody.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And maybe that's the kickoff. of the Boogaloo. Again, there's not a lot of forethought and afterthought with these guys. It's like, what about the National Guard? I mean, what about Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine? What about freaking cops? You know, we'll deal with that. What about girlfriends? I ask them. I go, you know, I hear you guys talking about procreation all the time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I don't see any women. I got a woman. She's not for sure. And they're like, oh, we'll just rape them. And I go, I'm sorry, what? He goes, yeah, we're just going to rape the women. When D-Day happens and it's the Boogaloo, yeah, we're just going to take the women and rape them. I kind of giggled and I said, you guys don't have a lot of experience with women, do you? And they're like, why?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And I go, well, that stuff might work for a little while, but sooner or later you're going to have to go to sleep. You might wake up missing some parts you went to bed with. I'm like, what are you talking about? But we uncovered all that and we got enough evidence against them that everybody was happy. And the week of the takedown, I'm sorry.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, it would have been close to the week of the takedown. I had to postpone it. I'd had a lumbar fusion in 2002. What I didn't know, I thought it was just my disc, a bulging disc or something. What I didn't know is that fusion had broken free. And for about 15 years, I just had nothing. I had no disc. The cadaver bone dissipated. So my back was spasming really, really bad.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Like I couldn't get out of the floor. So I took some prednisone, got off the floor with electric stem. We had to postpone it for a week. So then I went. And on a Friday, I flew into Baltimore, met the case team, drove up Saturday to Delaware. Trained all day with those guys. Helped get more information that everybody wanted. Came back late to Baltimore. Flew to Atlanta.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Drove up to try to close the deal with the Georgia crew. I think I got home Monday for a couple of hours. I went back. Now I'm meeting with the SWAT teams because we're planning on the takedown. By Wednesday... I picked up Luke, who lived on the 100-acre farm, and we did a ruse where the car, like my car was messed up. I'm like, did you hear that? Actually, more divine intervention.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program, and sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already in or slated for an undercover.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I was going to fake that something was wrong with my car and my truck. We're driving, and all of a sudden, something goes, bam, like that. And I go, I didn't run over anything. I go, did you hear that? He said, yes. I swear, if that damn brake caliper froze again, I said, let me pull over. Well, I pulled over to the spot the SWAT team wanted me to, and then we did a ruse.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I was around the back of the truck looking, and another truck pulls up. I'm like, oh, my gosh, man, I can't believe you're here. And then I jump in that truck, and then the SWAT team and the Bearcats rolling over the hill, and they took him without incident. Helter Skelter and Pestilence got picked up without incident. We kept all that quiet on Wednesday because come Thursday morning,
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
SWAT teams from Washington field office and Baltimore field office were going to be hitting that crew. So we wanted to keep it quiet. So now Thursday they get arrested. Now stuff's starting to come out. I'm still in a chat group. And Friday, I'm watching it, and they're like, Pell Horse, are you there? And they're like, wait a minute, now the affidavits are starting to come out.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
It says that there's a federal undercover agent that infiltrated the base. And they're like, who's a damn fed in here? And I'm just being quiet. And somewhere around 5.15, the leader of the base, he went by the monikers Norman Spears and Roman Wolf. His real name is Ronaldo Nazaro. So you can let this sink in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Here's an American citizen born in America, went to Villanova, was in the Army, to my understanding, Army, Intel, and he was contracted at some point for some job in the Department of Justice. Now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
and i guess he supposedly teaches english they tried to say the base didn't have a leader he's definitely the leader wow um and uh as a russian family so you can do your own speculation there i'm not working that case anymore how crazy right what was his red pill moment because clearly if you look at his history he was kind of on the liberal side something happened somewhere and then he starts spewing crazy stuff and then the base gets infiltrated by like
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
journalists from vice well then they tighten up every time the base got infiltrated they tighten their obsec more and more every propaganda video we did the rule was it has to be better than the last one because we're trying to get everybody and so i'm watching all this roll out there's no way of feds in here this that and the other blah blah blah and then i i see roman finally respond around like five ish on friday and he's like i'm not sure we could have found him
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Because he was good. He attended every meeting, which I didn't. He said he attended every meeting, which maybe that should have been a red flag, but I didn't attend every training or meeting. And I'm like, okay, he's figured out it's me. And then he said something else, and then that was it. It says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolf.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So I screenshotted that, and I sent it to all the case teams all over the United States and the headquarters FBI. And I said, and I'm out. Wow. Yeah, so they went down. That was a wild case. And if you want to get into the effects on family and stuff, at that point, I mean, we're talking 2020. I started in 96 at a state and local level. But my wife, we were dating when I was a narc.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So she was kind of used to, hey, I went out and picked up some hookers and got some cocaine stuff. But Clearly, there were some very rough times, especially during that three-year period around the outlaws. But it's not always easy. But what she says, because people always ask, and the spouses do not get enough credit at all. She's not law enforcement. She's not desensitized in my world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
What happens, at least in my experience, what happened with me is I get certified. Our certification school is very, very intense. I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense. It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation. Not going to give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
She used to freak out and be nervous when I'd go on undercovers. And what she would do is... To help her cook, she moved furniture. I'd come homing up in the door and trip over stuff. I'm like, what in the... How did the couch get... Who moved that refrigerator? You know, crazy stuff. But one day, what she said is she said, look, she just had to give it up to God.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
She's like, I can sit here and worry every day, and I'm going to kill myself worrying about it. But I essentially don't have control. I got to pray that you're good at what you do. And, you know, if it's your time to go, he can take me anytime he wants. But finishing the base case is the first time, like an idiot, I should have realized it, but I realized –
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
After an undercover, I have to decompress. I have to kind of, okay, all right, I get my mind, all right, that's done, okay. So does she. And we were sitting out on the back porch. Having an adult beverage. I might have been smoking a cigar. But she said something to the effect of something. I was at the base, and she was like, yeah, I was covering you in prayer. And I kind of giggled.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And she's like, she looks at me, and I'm like, what? I mean, we've been doing this for a while, right? I mean, you don't have to be worried about me, worried about me. We've been doing this a minute. She jerked a knot in my butt, man. She looked at me stern and she said, let me tell you something. You are my husband and I'm your wife and it's my job to cover you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I do have a wacky one I forgot. Another one? Yeah, you want a wacky one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a murder for hire, basically. Oh. I got hired to do me and another task force officer who went with me on the undercover. Essentially, they thought we were bikers, and they ended up hiring us to do four home invasions and murder two people. So you want to talk about wacky people.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
This is towards the end of my career. Her name was Tammy. She gets in. It's all in the news and the court records. We go and we meet the husband. We thought the husband was the one wanting to get us. And we were like off a dirt road. It's pretty rough, man. Like walking up to the place, I'm like, hey, man, watch out. Sharp object, sharp object, TB, MRSA, EPSI, you know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So we meet him and he's like, oh, that's really not my plan. It's my old lady's plan. I go, where's your old lady? Well, she's asleep. Are you going to wake her up? You want me to? I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you if you're not planning it. I'm here to make money. So we pick her up. She comes out, gets in the truck.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
We start driving around looking at these locations of where they wanted it because they knew some people that were dealing dope. They had the ends on where the guns and the money were, so they thought. And they wanted us to do the home invasions and kill them. But while we're riding around, she says – If you need somebody to torture, I'm really good in torture. I love torture. I'm driving.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
She's in the passenger seat, clawing herself. She's weathered. Yeah, she's weathered, tweaking, probably. And this is how my mind works. So she's like, yeah, I'm into torture. She goes, you know that you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it up a man's penis and rip it back out and then pour salt in the penis. Well, now the guys in the back of the truck are going, oh, my gosh.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
What she didn't know was two weeks prior to that, I had my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my first lumbar fusion. That wasn't the problem. They messed up my privates, and they had to dry calf me. So when she's talking about this hanger going in and out, I'm kind of feeling. I'm like, I think I know what is similar to that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I got certified in 2002. In 2003, I started role-playing and assisting at the school. I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired. Never 100% graduation rate. I don't know of any 100% graduation rate before I got into the program. And it's not hazing. You get 20 slots. So it's four groups of five.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So she says that, and then she says, yeah, and you can take a PVC pipe, and you can run it up somebody's anus and then barbed wire up it and rip it out And we pull up to a red light and I lean over and I go, why are you so angry? And she's like, oh, no. I said, are you sure you don't want to kill these people? She's like, oh, no, I'm too well known. But if you need somebody tortured, I can do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Then on the next ride or ride into the next place, she says that her husband went on a cocaine bender and she told him never to do that again. Cocaine meth something. She said cocaine, but he'd been gone for three days. She couldn't find him. He comes home after being high three, four days and he crashes. She's so pissed at him. She tells us the story that he's naked.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
She takes a two by four, shoves it under his back legs, takes an industrial stapler and staples his scrotum to the board. He didn't wake up. That's how down he was, or his crash was. But when he did, he finds himself hooked to a board, and he's screaming for help, and she wouldn't help him. He had to call a friend to do it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
So if you think the story's BS, if you think the story's BS, we confirmed it with the husband. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, she did it. I ain't never had no woman do nothing like that to me before. And I'm like... So my buddy in the back, he goes, you really don't like men, do you? And she's like, I've been unlucky in love.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
But in my head, Joe, that's when I'm looking over and I go, these are my people. This is my skill set. This is what I get. I don't get Wall Street. Jesus Christ. So, yeah, there's all kinds of stuff like that, man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yep. So now it's book. I still teach alert. Tell everybody the book. The book is Codename Pale Horse. And it's how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis. But it's not just white supremacy. It's got the outlaws. It's got...
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Personal stuff, the life, there's murder for hire cases all in there, the pedophile stories in there, public corruption cases where, I mean, some of the targets, like I got put in a corner, I underestimated. I'm dealing with a guy who's toothless. and a mountain backwoods guy, and he beat me at chess that night. And I ended up with a bag of cocaine open, shoved in my face.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
He's got a sawed-off shotgun, a red-boned hound's growling in my crotch, and he's like, if I find out you're the law, you're a dead man. Do it if you're not a cop. I had to figure out a way to get out of that, you know. So there's stuff like that all in there. I bonded with that guy, too. You know?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And when somebody sent me his obituary, I felt sad. Wow. This is my last line from him, and I think you'll like it. These are some of the people you deal with. He said, now, Scott, I'm going to speed it up because he was on pills a lot and he drank all day and did cocaine all day. So it was a constant battle of being pickled. But he's like, I think he died five years before I met him.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I'm pretty sure it's the dope keeping him alive. I think he died. He just doesn't know it yet. But he would be like, now, Scott, you know. I don't do cocaine anymore. And I'd go, I know, man. He goes, I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore. I say, I know. And he'd pour cocaine in his hand. He goes, but this right here, that's just a bump. And I'm looking going.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
You just did cocaine. And he said, you know, I don't sell cocaine anymore either. And I'd say, I know, man. He goes, I used to sell truckloads of it. I said, I know. I know you don't do it. Now, if you need them five ounces, I can get them for you for this much money. That's the kind of stuff, man. You got to find humor in that. But yeah, may he rest in peace.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yes, I'm sorry. Thank you for saying that. It's my voice.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, it's my voice. Thank you. Actually, that was something I was told I needed to say. Has to. So, yeah, no offense to the other peers of mine that have done books or just mentor or people that have done it before me, but if I click on it and I hear, there I was in the basement, I'm like, what in the hell?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
And generally it goes like you get some trainings during the day and then we're running scenarios and we're putting you into live stuff. But day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep, I've seen people nut out. And mine are in psych. I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know. Maybe we were on the SWAT team together.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
Yeah, so I read the book. And then we'll see what happens as far as TV and stuff like that goes.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2295 - Scott Payne
I did. I've been on, again, the tactical stuff. I've been in armor on movie sets in Tennessee. I actually did a cameo. In the movie world, I have one kill under my belt. All right. But that's it, man. I'm just trying to pay it forward, still trying to learn, still trying to do good things. Well, best of luck with this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But you got your plate carrier. You got all your stuff placed on it. You've got your belt. You've got your pistol. In the base, the uniform was Flecktarn camo because Flecktarn is a pattern of camouflage, but it's German. So going back to that neo-Nazi kind of thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
From my experience, I've seen both. I've seen people come out there. There were people in the base that were very overweight. You got younger guys, five hour plus rucks, nothing to anybody that's special forces or military for that matter. But yeah, they're training. And so I get into the group. You go with the cell that's closest to where you say you live.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So being in Tennessee, there was a North Georgia cell and I went down there and it was a 19 year old kid that led carbine training and it was good. Carbine and tactics wasn't the best. And there's mistakes made. And of course we're not going to correct that because we don't want them getting better, but yeah, it was good. And I'm like,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I'm watching and I'm thinking if they did break bad, they could probably get the drop on a lot of people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Sure. Christian identity is making a comeback.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yes, that's the black man, right?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah, awesome story. Yeah, they're still around. They get splintered a lot. It seems like there's a lot of infighting. The ones I've seen, and in my experience, the ones that I infiltrated, it was backwoods, lower socioeconomic status.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah, it was very similar to any comedy scene you've seen in a movie that covered the Ku Klux Klan.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I'll tell you what they say. I mean, that's what the way it was explained to me. Now, Scott, we're not supremacists anymore. We're separatists. Because in other words, supremacist sounds so much worse. A separatist basically is, we don't care if all the black people are in that field over there. They can have that field, but we want this field for nothing but whites. That's basically a separatist.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And they don't want race mixing at all. You know, and the way it was described to me, I think, what did John Jack say? Did he say, You don't see a horse effing a cow or something. We don't want to see black and whites. But again, if you really start scratching at the surface and we did a 23 and me of everybody that was in the field I was in, maybe one or two pure white people there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I was a case agent on this one. I went undercover, but we worked the Aryan nations of Tennessee. And that was the thing. They call them Aryan angels. So Christian identity, basically Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fair, and back in the Aryan nation days, they were pushing Christian identity. It may have started before that. I don't know exactly because I don't have it right in front of me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But the gist of it is this. They take the story of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve, and then they twist it. There's a dual seed line. They believe that The biblical story is they're in the Garden of Eden. God says you can have anything you want except any fruit off of that forbidden tree. The serpent, who is Satan, talks to Eve, gets her on the sly. She takes a bite of the apple.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
She gets Adam to take a bite of the apple. And now we're sinners, and it all comes down from there. They take that, and I'm going to tell you how they twist it, but you've got to bear with me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Same story, except... that the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
A man of color. God, that's so corny, man. A man of color who is the seed of Satan himself. It is Satan. He's a man of color. He has sex with Eve, and Eve, from that sexual act, births
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
came and that is the mud race was what they call it the mud race non-white anything not white mud race from there down but adam and eve did procreate able and that's the pure white race coming down gotcha man this is just like a biblical version of a bunch of really insecure dudes worst fears or whatever it's so corny and predictable wow It's crazy. But I mean, look, they're still out there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And a lot of the MO for recruiting that I've seen, same thing, broken home, somebody that needs to belong and I need to connect. But from there, you've got Aryan Nation, which was the big one. But in the state of Tennessee, you've got Aryan Nations. Not to be confused.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Well, but they kind of mend together, at least in my case work, because I ended up interviewing some of the people that created the Aryan Nations in Tennessee. And it was created as a prison gang, but letters started coming from Reverend Butler to the leader of the Aryan Nations, and his street name was Legion. Letters, hey, cease and desist. We're already the Aryan nation.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And basically it went back and forth in letters and said, look, we've already lost blood on this name. We're not changing. And Reverend Butler said, if you're going to keep the name, will you at least listen to Christian identity and let me teach? And they took that. So even in jail in Tennessee or any Aryan nations in the prison system, they're going to have their rights.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
tattoo with the four quadrants. They're going to carry the white rock. We're going to have their 88 precepts. They're going to have church and they make some biblical in there under Reverend Butler. They weren't felons. So you could have guns and stuff. And that was a big thing. We don't want you guys to be part of it because you're felons and you can't have a weapon and all this other stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So they're supposed to go by a certain set of bylaws. I mean, I've got a copy of them. They're out there, but the thing is when they were getting out, what we were seeing is they were going right back in the dope gang.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And what we uncovered is that a lot of the crystal meth coming from Mexico and the cartel was at least up to here for a good while was coming through a gang called Ghostface Gangsters. And GFG made not a pact, but basically an agreement with Aryan Nations. that Aryan nations would get all their crystal meth from them. So going back to what you said, they have Aryan angels.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So you can become an Aryan angel and you're now under the Aryan nations. But as we put in the book and we were uncovering is Aryan, They were pimping women out. I'm like, tell me how you're furthering the white race by pimping out your white women. Just going off of the 14 word slogan that David Lane coined many years ago, that all white supremacists are like 14 words.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Secure the white race and the future of our people. Something along those lines.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Shibboleth. I've got a patch over there somewhere, because I got it from whatever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah, so... But more of a goat killing party than a donkey.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah. So I'm out there in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere in the middle of Alabama. And I remember asking, I'm playing like I don't know everything about this stuff. And the role I was in, I'm like, hey, I'm an old biker. I've never been to this kind of rally. What do you guys do? And I remember asking, are we going to burn the cross or however I worded it?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And John Jack, who was the club, which would be their chaplain.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
If you're in the K, everything phonetically that sounds like kuh is now a K. Okay, gotcha. See what I'm saying? They change it all to Ks.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
With a K. Clever with a K. Yeah. I'm out there, and somehow the cross burning comes up, and he says, now, Scott. It's not called a cross burning. That'd be sacrilegious. It's a cross lighting. And I'm like, oh, okay. It signifies the light of Jesus Christ coming down into the world and driving the darkness out. Now, I didn't ask, but I'm pretty sure by darkness, he meant non-white people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And in my sick sense of humor, I didn't say it out loud, but as I'm thinking, I'm going, right. And I'm staring at the cross. I'm like, yeah, because I've met so many white guys named Jesus. You know, I'm like, this was not a Jew, according to them. Yeah. If you switch over to an accelerationist, that's F your Jewish God.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
It's completely different. Jeez. It's a little crazy.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I know it's funny. I don't want to make light of it because it is a terrible thing, the hate.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But yeah, some of it to me was just comical. I mean, I felt like I was in a scene from Django Unchained or I felt like I was at Oh Brother Where Art Thou or Harold and Kumar Escape Guantanamo Bay for that little snippet they did or even Bad Boys 2.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
True. And again, a lot of splintering. It would be like, all right, so we're the Nashville KKK. And then we all get in a pissing match tonight. And we're like, you know what? We're going to be South Nashville KKK. And y'all are going to be North Nashville. It's just, it splits and stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah, it seems like there's so much splitting and infighting, they never really pull it together. Plus, it doesn't help when you find out the leader's son married a woman of color or one of the leaders who was one of the loudest anti-gay, anti-black. I know where this is going. Yeah. that's the guy that gets caught with a black transvestite. Sure, of course.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You're like, maybe you shouldn't have been talking so bad about it. I don't know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I mean, I didn't know it was a guy.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And he's black.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah, I was infiltrating them.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So how I got to that group was I ended up playing music because when I called in, I'm like, hey, I've never been to one of these rallies. I've been to a lot of biker rallies. Is it like that? You got vendors, music, I don't know, bar, whatever. They said, we got some vendors. And he said, I ain't going to lie to you, Scott, because I had a band lined up, but the singer got locked up.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I don't even know what I'm going to do right now. And that's when I said, hey, did I mention I'm a singer and a musician? And he said, no. And I said, well, how about I bring my acoustic, my PA system, whatever. Let me just come out there. I said, I'll play a couple of tunes out by the car. If you think I suck, no harm, no foul. I'll throw it back in the car and go about my day.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
He said, that'd be absolutely great. So I ended up playing music there. But you get intelligence from the case team that's been working it. But I just remember being there. And again, I'm in a field with 30 plus people and I don't know anybody. And I know I should be the only undercover there. No other law enforcement there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And we get to a point to where they're like, hey, we're holding a naturalization ceremony tonight. And John Jack's like, there's no sweat off my back if you want to go and get naturalized. There's a group of people standing around at that point. I'm like, yeah, man, cool. Well, everybody kind of walks off. I go over to him and I go, hey, what is a naturalization? What am I signing up for?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Am I going to end up naked and tarred and feathered? I don't know what's going on out here. He said, no, man. He goes, listen, he goes, we have this beautiful ceremony. He said, you ever seen the wizard of Oz? He said, I've seen grown men bigger than you cry at this ceremony. And once they're naturalized, he said, the beginning of wizard of Oz, you watch it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
It's all in black and white, but once they see the truth, everything's in color. So he's saying, once you're naturalized, basically sworn in. It's a naturalization ceremony, kind of like somebody coming into the country in the United States and wanting to be naturalized as a citizen.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So I said, okay, because had I not got naturalized that night, I would have been the only non-member who wasn't being naturalized. So it would have been really kind of odd and outcast. So I went ahead and went through it and they blindfolded us and They gave some commands in the beginning. You're blindfolded. Put your right hand on the shoulder of the person in front of you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You do not break the chain, whatever you do. We're going to walk you around. We're on hills, going through woods, whatever. You do not break the chain. That signifies the bond of brotherhood and the white race and anything else you can throw in there to cheer you on. So now it's getting really dark, blindfolded. And as I put in the book, they're reading from a book.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Some of it sounds biblical and some of it's not. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah, I think I said it on the last one. My faith, it's carried me through a lot of this stuff, if not all of it, you know?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And I forget because I'm in church groups and they're like, man, we're going to get your book. And as I was reading the audio book, I started just laughing in the studio. And they're like, what? I go, man, I forgot how graphic a lot of this stuff is. So I need to go back and do a disclaimer. There's a lot of graphic stuff, but it's true.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Thank you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Thank you. Thank you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I know I'm probably going to have to put a bullet in the back of my dad's head. I can do it. But he's crying while he's saying it. And then another base member says, I could kill my dad, too. He was just upstairs, by the way. I could kill my dad, too, but I'd cry myself to sleep every day. So I'd probably get somebody else to do it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
The case was brought to fruition because complaints of public corruption. Cops being dirty and this and the others. We're looking for, like, systemic public corruption, but what ended up happening... in this rural area of Tennessee is that we hit it right at the beginning of the opioid epidemic. The Mecca at that point was in Fort Lauderdale, Broward County, Florida. Back then, I didn't know it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I was undercover with them. If you don't work it, you don't know it, I guess, unless somebody tells you. But I remember being with somebody and they're like, man, I'm sick. I could see them sweating. And I'm like, man, you want me to pull in and get you like a Theraflu or Hococester? But no, I'm pill sick, damn it. And I'm like, what is that?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And then the other one that was out there that night, Pestilence, said, you guys are farther along than me because I couldn't kill my parents. He was definitely dealing more with like the order of nine angles, Satanism, white supremacy sect. But yeah, for me, I just look at it like good versus evil. Break it down, not left versus right. And even if you're not a believer,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And you don't believe in spiritual warfare and whatever. Okay. But good versus evil. Generally speaking, you know what's good. There are people who don't. And there's a term for those people. They got some psychological stuff. And it comes in all forms. But I did see a lot of young guys that had probably been bullied. Definitely outcasts. Don't have a partner. Can't get a partner.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And they get on the phone. They get on your smartphone, and you dive deep into a rabbit hole every night of hate, whether it's on Gab, Telegram, Discord. There was a 4chan, an 8chan, a 12chan. There was Threema, Wire, Riot, you name it, all this stuff. But ProtonMail and stuff, it's all things that they think can't be subpoenaed.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
by the feds and excuse for nefarious activity but you dive deep into that and you start believing so there's so much ai stuff out there now or just false reporting i remember when i was in a lot of these groups even as a case agent i'm like is this real or not because it looks freaking real so you got to pull and go okay well let me look at the what the left's reporting let me look at what the right's reporting and find the truth somewhere in the middle
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
but they're diving into that and they're believing it also on gab i hopped into the groups called 14 words shocker whites only shocker white supremacists in there And that's where I was seeing the base propaganda and recruiting stuff. But what they would do is like a recruitment thing or to make you pro-white, anti-anything-not-white, is they would do like a montage of real things that happened.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So there was a brutal murder of a young couple, white boy, white girl in East Tennessee. And it was probably one of the most horrific things I've ever, after the fact, looked at and said, damn. Just raping, beating, folding them in half, put them in a drum, a lie, just torture. And they both died. And that was three black guys and a black woman. You take that and you show that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Correct. And I will tell you, I have seen withdrawals. I've seen the hardcore shake and bake, making your car, open wounds, lesions, brown pus, blood. And you're like, dude, that person's died. That's like full-blown AIDS or something. It was just withdrawn from meth, crappy meth, dirty meth.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And then it's followed by that thing that went viral with, I think it was the three or four black teens that were beating and laughing at the
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
white mentally and physically challenged kid in the corner and they show that and they show like a video that's been captured of a black man beating a white female cop or a black man coming into doing a home invasion and beating a white woman they do that and that's stuff that really happened but it happens on the opposite side as well yeah sure of course you could be a black extremist and you could show all the bad things that white people have done
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
to people of color. And you can use that, but it's just divide. It's just hate. I'm not trying to preach to anybody, but look, If you've ever seen a good depiction of the devil, it's just going around whispering in ears. I come over and I whisper to you, man, Jordan, did you hear what Scott said about you? I can't believe you're going to let somebody get away with that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And then it comes over to me and goes, hey, did you hear what Jordan said he's going to do about you? And you're just creating chaos in your division and hate.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Tammy, me and a good friend of mine who's a task force officer, we did an undercover and it was basically a murder for hire, but they hired us to do four home invasions and murder two people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah. Yeah. Because what it was is her son was moving drugs and money for the main dealers. So he knew where all the guns, the open money was at. So that's how they got the information. And their idea was to take them all out, get a bunch of money. So we meet and we're talking about stuff. And I remember we got there and we thought we were going to be talking to the husband.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And the husband's like, that's not really my idea. It was my wife. So I go, where's your wife? She's sleeping. I said, you're going to go get her up. You want me to? I said, I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you. If it's not your plan, I'm here to make money. So we get Tammy and she hops in the truck.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
She's in the front passenger seat, other guys in the back seat, and we're driving around looking at these spots, casing the place. I just remember driving, and she's like, you know, I'm really into torture. You need anybody tortured. I love torture. I'm like, okay. I'm being nonchalant. By this time, I'm towards the end of my career. This is my skill set.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And she says, you know, you can take a clothes hanger, and you can bend it on the end, and you can shove it into a man's penis and then rip it back out. And when you rip it out, then you pour salt down his penis.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Okay. Now, you sound a lot like the other people in the truck.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And what she didn't know is two weeks prior, I'd had a lumbar fusion to correct the first lumbar fusion that broke free. And I didn't know it. I've been going around approximately 15 years when my back was disconnected. Jeez. But it wasn't the back surgery that hurt. Because they've come so far in 20 years or 18 years since I'd had my first fusion.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And then 30 days later, you see somebody, and I don't know how many years they shaved off their life, but they look a lot better. They got weight on them. And you're like, damn. But I will tell you, the withdrawals from opioids, Probably the closest thing to death, obviously. You want to die. The ones I've seen. You're crapping and peeing yourself for 12 days. You can't eat. Your body's cramping.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But they jacked my privates up and I had to be dry calfed because I couldn't pee. So they're like, you can go home if you can pee. And I'm like, I can't pee. And it starts hurting. And I got dry calfed. So she's telling the story about this clothes hanger going into a penis and ripping it back out. And I'm thinking... That's pretty close to what happened to me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
They didn't pour salt down it, but it hurt really bad. So then she says, you can take a PVC pipe and you can jam it up somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up through there and rip their colon or anus out from the inside out through the PVC pipe. And I remember pulling up to a red light. Again, everybody's going, good Lord. And I lean over and I'm just like, why are you so angry?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Oh, no, I'm not. I'm just in a torture. And I'm like, do you want to kill these people? She's like, well, no, I'm too well known around here. But if you need somebody tortured, then she starts to we're driving to another spot. And she tells us a story of her husband, very skinny man.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
that he had done something she told him to never do again and he went on a cocaine bender and was gone for like three four days she couldn't get a hold of him she didn't know where he was at she was pissed he finally comes home and he is i guess he's been up the whole time because he crashed hard like out cold so she says she took uh two by four and put it behind his legs
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
and took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board. Wow. And it didn't wake him up.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Picture it. Picture a board stuck to the back of you hooked to your ball sack.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
She said he was screaming for her to get the staples out. And she said, no, he had to call a friend to come do it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Jesus. Even a lot of thought and effort going into robbing four houses or doing four home invasions and murdering two people. I'm like, if you took some of that and applied it to a legit job or something good. Yeah. So after she tells the scrotum stapling story, we pull up to the red light and I lean over and I said, do you watch a lot of slasher flicks? And she said, oh yeah, that's all I watch.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And I was like, okay. Surprise, surprise. And she started talking about like the human centipede where they sewed the face to it. I'm like, but in my mind, I'm giggling to myself going, these are my people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I mean, she's over there clawing her skin, flakes of skin going everywhere.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
True. My buddy in the back said, I think his line was, after the stapling and the scrambling, he goes, man, you really don't like men, do you? She said, I've been unlucky in love.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I was like, damn.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Well, we meet the husband again, and we asked, dude, did she staple your balls to a two-by-four with an industrial swing? He goes, hell yeah, she did. He goes, man, I knew. I never had no woman ever do that to me. I knew she was the right one, and I'm like,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You got fevers. You're screaming bloody murder. It is bad. We had four pill mills that we ended up taking down. Me and my buddy and the task forces did the case. And our first round of indictments was 102 people on a drug conspiracy.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Boy, howdy. Jesus. Of course, at his sentencing. He said that he was scared of it. I believe that. And I'm like, you know, I mean.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
That's the way I was taught. Do you want to pour gas on a fire? Did you light the fire and you want to pour gas on it? I was taught this by some big ass tough dudes. It's just I'm in your place. If something gets messed up, hey, I'll do respect. Am I bad? I'm sorry. I'm out. But without making it a sexual reference, your mouth is probably your best weapon. You got to talk.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You have to talk, at least for me and the situations I was in.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
in east tennessee but i remember testifying before the grand jury and talking about the withdrawals like i just talked with you and a lady raised her hand who was in the jury and she said look i used to work in the uh nick unit at university of tennessee children's hospital and she said when those babies are born addicted to that she's seen the baby she said they're not even formed enough to have the muscles in their neck to raise their head but they're in so much pain from the withdrawals the babies are actually raising their heads
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
That was a lot of adjectives.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
It depends on the groups. I don't like to dehumanize. I don't like to belittle because dead is dead. If I showed you a picture of the kids from Columbine before Columbine happened, what would you have said? If I showed you a picture of the kid in Charleston, South Carolina that murdered numerous African-Americans, I don't like to say their name.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But I'll tell you this. Sometimes in the undercover world, I have to say their name because we're talking about what they did. Or I'm talking about an undercover where the guy says, I want to do something in the spirit of ******. But in the tactical world, we never say their name because that's what they wanted. That's what they want. I'll mention every victim.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I'll mention every victim from Columbine. We can name them all, but we just don't want to say their names, generally speaking.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah, so if I showed you a picture of... The Charleston kid, right? Haircut, barely can fill up a Gold's Gym tank top with a .45 and Rebel flag. What would you say? How about the kid from Aurora, Colorado? Orange and yellow hair.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
kind of loser useless guys look at the rhetorical question i asked we were out hiking or whatever and i'm just seeing what they're gonna say maybe stirring the pot having fun on my own but i'm like so we're all neo-nazis yeah we're all ready for a boogaloo yeah we want nazi back we want hitler back yeah which one of us is going to be hitler yeah and it just gets quiet they're gonna be one
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
They're going to let me know who's going to be it. What you're saying kind of reminds me of me growing up in the big anarchy days. It's like anarchy, anarchy. I'm like, this is before Purge and all that stuff were movies. I just remember thinking, I'm like, if there were really no rules and there were no ramifications, do you think you're going to last? You're the first victim. Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And I didn't even know that. And when she said that, it was like, woof. That's terrible. So that was the kind of crew we started seeing. And we were actually calling down and working with DEA Diversion and DEA as a whole in Florida. At that point in time, we're talking like 2009, you could go to Broward County and you and I could roll in with five other people packed in a car.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I've seen so many doomsday preppers, man. I'm like, you're prepping, you're prepping. Okay. You look and you go, if you think like a bad person, I want you to stock up on all your food. I want you to stock up on all your weapons and ammo. Because when D-Day hits, I'm coming and taking you out.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And it's all there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You get into some of these groups, man, and it's just scary. But it's also sad. You see some of them and you're like, man, that dude... He's been bullied. Maybe some of them are on the spectrum, on that autism spectrum. Asperger's not saying that makes you anything. I'm not trying to generalize. I'm just saying.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But maybe that has something to do with the disconnect with society. And then again, it's a case by case basis. But there are groups out there like eradicate hate global summit. They hold that once a year in Pittsburgh. It started after the Tree of Life massacre. And I've got a lot of friends and contacts out there now, blessed enough to be a part of it. And they're doing all kinds of stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And that's kind of like an umbrella thing. You partner with Life After Hate. They call them formers, but you've got like a former radical jihadist who recruited kids to blow stuff up. They're on the right path now. You've got former skinheads, white supremacists, black separatists. And at the end of the day, we're all trying to spread knowledge and stop hate.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
No, I could be spotted. I'm a musician and a singer. I mean, I play at a pretty big church. Yeah, I could be spotted. There's some people like in certain cases during the takedown, I'm like, man, I'm kind of worried about a couple of these suspects or defendants. And I'd like to talk to them face to face. The way I've always tried to be is your best defense is a good offense. That's me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Maybe that doesn't work for the situation of the person, but I wanted to get out in front of it and actually have the conversation right there with that person about any kind of types of retaliation or whatever. There are a few maybe from the base. If they got out, I might be a little concerned. But I don't live in fear, but I don't walk around blindfolded.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Because, again, I come from the criminal world of law enforcement. Once we make that arrest, even if I'm arrested with them, you know, to say something for the case or whatever or however you want to work it, At some point, they're going to sit down with their defense attorney, and they're going to get all the discovery.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And they're going to hear my voice on a recording saying, this is UCE whatever, 1, 2, 3, 4. It's March 7th, 2025, approximately 5, 55 p.m. Eastern time. And I'm going to be going in to meet so-and-so. And they're going to know that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
A lot of them say they do, though.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
We could go into the doctor's office, pay cash for the visit, At one point, they had an MRI machine and a tractor trailer parked behind a strip club. Why? I guess to kill time, you're at the strip club, but you could go around back and get an MRI because they wanted to try to make their records look legit.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I knew it! What you hear a lot of is when you arrest them, they go, oh, hell, I knew you were undercover.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah. You sold me cocaine for a year and a half.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
The FBI could have used some cleaning up.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I came in under Louis Freeh, and in my opinion, that is the last real director the FBI's had. Now, he was also phenomenal. He was also a former FBI agent and a former assistant United States attorney, which is going to be a rare find. It's kind of like finding a commander in chief that has military experience. You just don't see it a lot anymore.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But Louie took a boatload of desk positions out of headquarters and pushed them back to the field. And we were a law enforcement agency. Now, Mueller came in and it was on the cusp of 9-11. So something had to be done. But in my opinion, and a lot of my peers and people I've worked with over the years that are law enforcement officers pushed us the wrong way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
He wanted to make us an intelligence agency like little CIA within the United States. And we still work that stuff. But at the end of the day, the FBI is a law enforcement organization. Under Mueller, you're taking people from Fortune 500 companies, Goldman Sachs, and you're making them in the top three or four positions of the FBI.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
What the hell do you know about law enforcement and national security? Seriously. And then you start dealing with all these matrix and threat assessments and whatnot. I've got unbelievable friends who are unbelievable analysts and stuff, but I can tell you as a criminal investigator, all the cases I did, That kind of noise and smoke never helped me on a single case.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And Mueller created a boatload more positions at headquarters. And it gets to the point to where you got a revolving door that's sitting across the board. But generally speaking, you're hard workers who love being case agents and building cases and putting bad people in jail. Generally speaking, historically, in my 23 years in the FBI,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
They don't go to headquarters and they don't move up to the top of the chain. Say you're in New York City and you want to get out of New York City because you can't stand it. All right. You can put in for a desk and you can move to D.C. If you're willing to stay in the Jager River building, making ranks not as hard as it would be out in the field. And it got a little crazy.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Like, say you're putting in for a supervisor position. And you write all these things that you've done, like all these cases you've ran, these task forces you've started, or how you led by example, or all these things you have, these leadership skills you have to show, but you didn't do any headquarters time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And you can have years and years of experience and hundreds of arrests and great cases that made great impacts in the areas you were in. But the person that puts it against you did a year at headquarters. They trump you. Really? And it became a disconnect. You would always hear the argument of it's not the rank and file. It's the disconnect between headquarters.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But we could go in there, walk into the doctor's office, get our script, walk out, you pay cash for that, and you're still under the same roof. And there's a pharmacy under the same roof. So you get that prescription filled. Then we could drive down the road to the next doctor because at that point in time in Florida, they weren't tracking. They weren't tracking opioid sales or doctors.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I know plenty of people headquarters that are unbelievable. But you get a situation like Peter Stroke, Andy McCabe, Lisa Page. It's horrific. And if anybody thinks, oh, well, that's just spewing fake news, bad news, whatever, I'm telling you right now, it was absolutely wrong what they did.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And because of what they did and the after action, when everybody comes in and does an investigation, every agent and task force officer were mandated to take hours upon hours of training, mandatory training to show you and teach you what you're not supposed to do, because it's what they learned from those investigations.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
When you get warrants, I would say, hey, Jordan says this person is absolutely dirty, but I don't show that we investigated 10 other people that said Jordan's full of shit. And he's been proven to be full of shit. You got to turn it all over.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But is it their fault? Should you be running a case out of headquarters? I never saw one that was awesome. Not to knock headquarters. It's just that To be a certain age and be at the top of the FBI, you can't have worked a shit ton of cases at that age. The math doesn't work.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You could say you led stuff. If you're a supervisor of a squad, maybe you led some stuff. Maybe you did the traditional training officer where I put you on my hip and we're going to go work this case together. But I'm going to show you how to do this. You can learn it, teach it and go on.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But once you're an ASAC of a division or an SAC and you start moving up in these higher positions, to say you're running a case and led a case, I'm not buying it. So there's some cleaning up that needs to be done. Look, for the longest, it was DEA in the hot seat. It was ATF with Fast and Furious and all these things in the hot seat.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But I will tell you, in my personal opinion, since Comey, man, we took the baton and the FBI has not dropped it. There's so many great things the FBI does. But I still love the FBI. I'm pro-FBI. And if you read the book, I don't bash the FBI at all.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I haven't been asked that question.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
It's almost as if you know what you're doing. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. It's not get carried away. I don't know, Jordan. It's just the way my mind works. I'm a glasses half full guy. I'm an optimist all the way. There's always going to be another bad group.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
What I want people to understand is even if you don't like what we do and my argument used to always be, don't be mad at the law enforcement officer. We're actually peace officers. It used to say on every car to serve and protect. We're just enforcing the law. If you don't like the law, change the law.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
We had carloads coming from East Tennessee and Southeastern Kentucky just going there. But yeah, so we're in the backwoods, and we're debriefing the source one day, and he's like, hey, man, that's old Johnny Two Fingers. Because we're trying to identify people. Like, who's this guy? Oh, Scott, that's Johnny Two Fingers. You know who Johnny Two Fingers is? I'm like, no, I don't.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But then we entered a realm where you're just picking and choosing what they want to charge on who and when. And a murderer gets a bond and a white collar guy doesn't. I'm like, what the hell? I mean, you know, the world's upside down kind of thing. But I just want people to understand. that there are evil people on this planet that want to do evil things to good people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And it's been that way pretty much since the dawn of time. I've got relatives. I've got friends. I've got loved ones. Some of them can't deal with that. They'll see one story and they're like, I can't believe something so horrific. And I'm thinking, man, if you only knew. Yeah. But you need us on the wall. Is every cop bad? Absolutely not. Have there been some bad cops that do horrific things?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah. And they should be buried under the jail as far as I'm concerned. But, again, spreading knowledge, learning, because we can go back to the 80s. Same thing with the gang. Gang pops into town. I did it as a cop. Somebody said, I'm a member of the Crips. I'm moving to Greenville, South Carolina. I'm like, Crips, you need to go back to L.A. We don't have no gangs here.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Guess what happened in two months? They were full-fledged in South Carolina. Wow. Because you put your blinders on. So keeping me up at night. Yeah. Battling evil.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
That could have been a good night for that guy.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
It's a very good point. And since I've retired, I've been able to sit at tables where it's somebody completely different than my lifestyle on the opposite spectrum. But we start having a conversation and you share things like, how often do you think it is that a uniformed cop shows up and he's
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
warm welcome i can tell you my experience it wasn't that all i mean most i got get out of my house why are you pulling me over could that wear on your psyche as a cop absolutely there's all kinds of training out there and things you can do but it still happens it's human nature you're getting spit at and cussed at and disrespected and things that i would have in the circles i grew up in to talk to somebody like that to their face and be able to walk away not so much
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But could that turn into now you see people dressed a certain way and you associate that with that behavior and now everybody becomes a piece of shit to you? It can happen. And then on the other spectrum, maybe you grew up in the south side of Chicago like my good buddy did. And his experiences with cops were terrible and he couldn't stand the cops. But we'd sit down and have conversations.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I don't know, man. Me, my peers, mentors, people I've mentored, you look at it as we're shepherds, right? Bullies of bullies, livestock guardian dogs. I used to be an offensive lineman. I feel like I was a way better defensive lineman, but it is what it is. But I always said law enforcement to me is offensive lineman because they don't want you until they need you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
He goes, hell, everybody knows who Johnny Two Fingers is. I'm like... Okay. Who's Johnny Two Fingers? And he starts explaining, and I said, why do they call him Johnny Two Fingers? He goes, Scott, everybody knows. I said, I don't. Oh, Johnny. I guess he was horny, and he got up behind the donkey one day at the farm or wherever the heck they were at, out in the backyard. Who knows?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
If the team's winning, it's because the receivers, the running backs, and the quarterback are awesome. But if the team's losing, it's because the offensive line sucks. They don't get the credit, you know, so it's that same mentality. But yeah, talking, sitting down at the table, spreading knowledge.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah. It's okay for you to like something I don't. It's okay for me to like something you don't. We still get along.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You like to eat?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Yeah, this group that was in the base, pretty much everybody was pagan. And again, nothing against pagan. I got some great friends that are pagans, even though I'm a Christ follower. But again, they twist some of the pagan stuff. Hitler used a lot of Norse mythology. That's right. Raiders of the Lost Ark kind of stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But we were having pagan rituals, and we were doing stuff, and they just kept getting more aggressive. And we ended up to this hate camp in Halloween of 2019-2011. And Halloween, I remember the temperature dropped like, I don't know, something 40, 50 degrees. It had not been that cold. And all of a sudden it was like 16 degrees. Everything was ice. And they talked about doing a sacrifice.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And I fell asleep in the truck for a little bit because you're out there, you're freezing cold. You hop in the truck to charge with the battery on your phone, the heater's on. So I wake up to a banging on my window. Hey, bell horse, man, you're not going to believe it. You got to see this. You got to see this. And I get out. I'm like, what's going on? They're like, remember we talked about the Ram?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
We got it. It ends up, they were supposed to go somewhere far away. They went a place, I don't know, like a mile down the road. The dude had three goats or rams in his backyard. They went there with all their Flecktarn on and one of the other members' trucks bailed out, almost got caught, steal the goat, put it in the truck, bring it back, and that's when I woke up.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And the member that was going to be leading the blot that night, his real name was William Bilbro. But his middle name was Garfield after his grandpa. And he named the goat Gar after Garfield and his grandfather. This thing is crapping all over the bed of the truck. And I remember one of the base members, Dima, he says, man, this thing's shitting all over the place.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And I was like, well, hell, I would be too if a bunch of Neanderthals with black balaclavas and Flecktarn machine guns jumped out and pulled me over here. And I remember watching and I'm thinking, man, we're getting ready to do this thing, I think. And I go over to Eisen and I'm like, Is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? And he said, hey, don't even think like that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
We're showing this goat love. This love is going to be sacrificed to Odin. It's going to evolve. It needs to know the love we have for it. And we just don't need any negative vibes, basically, is what he was saying. I've made the joke. He didn't get it, but I'm doing the whole Talladega. I'm just like, I'm just going to push that baseball down deep. I'm never going to bring it up again.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I'm just going to push it down. Never bring up me feeling sorry for the goat again. We were getting ready to do it or go down to the holy area, the ritual area. And I had some recording devices on, obviously, and my case team could listen. And for that, if I'm out in the field, there's a cover team out there. So I was out in the field four or five days.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So there's a cover team running shifts, and they're 24 hours on me, which I appreciate.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Let's just say a building that was no longer in use, and they used that and brought in some generators and everything. Yeah. So I remember going over to my device and I lean in and I go, Hey, if you're listening, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to sacrifice this goat that they just stole. And I can't think of anything really to shut the op down. They stole the goat. That's okay.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And I guess he's... having sex with the donkey, and he's got his hands on the donkey's back hips.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
That's a crime, but our federal, no, is it sacrificing it? Animal cruelty. If you eat it, hunters, this I'm doing, I'm doing all this in my head. And I'm like, if you don't want me doing this, Send me a sign. Hit me. Reach out to me. Do something. And I sit there quiet. And I'm staring. And I'm listening. And it's quiet. And I go. Okay. Looks like we're going down in the woods.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And we carry this thing down in the woods. Gar. I mean, it's a long walk. Man, it's a little harrowing. Because you're doing that whole thing where you got like a lantern. Not really a flashlight. So anybody. We're carrying torches or whatever. Anybody. Anybody. And a mile from us could see this glow walking through the woods, but you can't see anything past 10 feet.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So we get down there, and Eisen starts the blot, and he's talking about how this is going to be the beginning of the Wild Hunt, which in Norse mythology, that's when Odin and a bunch of other guys just went on a rampage, kicking everybody's tail and killing all the enemies.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
But in Eisen's mind, in the base's mind, it was going to be the kickoff to the Boogaloo, and the Wild Hunt was going to be us cleansing the world
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Some sort of a doggy whatever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
eventually of non-whites again not a lot of forethought or afterthought like how's that going to work but okay don't worry about it we'll figure it out as it goes yeah so then he goes to sacrifice the goat and now we're all in a circle around the goat and he's already said look we're going to sacrifice this goat to odin to go to ball holla and we can start this wild hunt basically
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And somehow I'd ended up at the back of the goat. I don't know. It wasn't smart, but I'm holding the back of the goat by its hind legs.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
That's right. I should have learned my lesson. I didn't carry that one with me, that little piece of knowledge. So I'm holding the back of it, and he's got basically a machete. And he's rearing back as hard as he can, coming down practice swing. He's doing nice and slow, and he's like, it may take two hits. And somebody probably says, just do it. And he rears back with everything he's got. Bam!
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And I guess the donkey didn't like it, and he reared back and took two of the guy's fingers off. Oh, my God. I remember looking at the guy telling me, and I'm like, so everybody in town knows that he lost his two fingers having sex with a donkey. And he's like, yeah. And I said, and he knows everybody knows that he has sex with a donkey and he lost his two fingers. He's like, hell yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Hits this goat right on the back strap, and you hear this loud thud. Jordan, I don't even know if it broke a hair on its back. I don't know if it was a dull knife. Clearly, the back strap on a ram or goat is very sturdy, and it was like, you hear the goat go, bah! Oh, no. I had that kind of movie experience where you see everything happening in your head.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I'm like, I just saw this scene of blood going everywhere and just a vicious killing of this animal. And then somebody says, do it again, do it again. And then somebody says, hey, does anybody have a pistol?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
This one guy who had been up for 48 hours straight on Adderall, worked a third shift in Austin, Texas, drove nonstop to North Georgia, except for the second or two he fell asleep in Alabama and hit somebody rear-ended him. He was probably the worst tactically sound person person to handle a weapon, and he didn't listen to the rules.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Pestilence and TMB, they ran a pretty tight ship as far as safety goes on the range. So I was very pleased with that for safety reasons for myself, obviously. But when they asked, hey, does anybody have a weapon? That one guy, Zoom Nat, was like, I got mine. And even me and Luke both were like, what? Because he said, no weapons down there. We're going to do the sacrifice kind of thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So he pulls out his pistol, and I think Luke takes it. Somebody takes it out of his hands, thankfully. Hands it to Eisen. So we're still in a circle, and Eisen's going to shoot the goat. But he kind of points towards the goat and then turns his head completely away. And that's when the instructor came out at me. I'm like, whoa. You're supposed to look at what you're shooting, right? I'm no expert.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Exactly. Right. And that's what I said. Because he didn't even know what he was aiming at. And I'm like, hey, look at what you're shooting at. We're all in a circle. Yeah. And he pops one right in his head. And when he pops in his head, you can, I mean, even on the recording, you hear the goat hit the ground. But it kicks for several minutes and it's still kicking.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I said, hey, man, it might still be alive. I'm pretty sure it's dead. And I said, the love we were showing the goat and all, it's going to Valhalla. Let's make sure this is a peaceful transition. Air quotation? Sure. Jeez. So they put another bullet in and then somebody finally, you can hear on the recording, somebody's like, oh, and now it's definitely dead. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And I said, and he still lives here. I'm like, move. Yeah. Make up a story.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Thank you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I'm like, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So that was one of them. God. There was reports of a dog having sex with a woman.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
At a cocaine and pill party where reportedly some cops were there, but that's hard to prove. Right. That's one of those. He said, she said things unless I'm there and I'm filming it, which I wasn't. Thankfully. But yeah, the German shepherd's having sex with a female and she starts saying, ow, ow, it hurts. And this is the way it's being described. This is the way I typed it up. Sure.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Hey, man, it's evidentiary that if cops are at a cocaine and pill party, so she starts saying, ow, ow, ow. The way he's telling the story, it makes it like, okay, they're going to pull the dog off. And what they did is they put socks on the front paws of the dog because what was hurting the girl was the claws going in her back. Right. And I'm like. Oh, God. So you didn't stop said bestiality act.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You helped further.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Said act. And it was like, yeah. And I'm like. Jeez. I'm going to put a stop to this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I got a sick sense of humor. At least I have to do what I did. I'm like, so note to self, if I see a German shepherd with socks on this front paws. Walk backwards.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
He had done something she told him to never do again, and he went on a cocaine bender and was gone for like three, four days. She couldn't get a hold of him. She didn't know where he was at. He finally comes home. She took a 2x4 and put it behind his legs and took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Day four or five, awake on meth, maybe. Yeah. Day four, Mark, around no sleep and meth and no eating. I've seen people do some pretty crazy stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Sexually. Yeah, insane stuff. And I remember thinking... When I was younger and living more in the flesh, as they say, back in the Napster days when you could just go and download anything, I'm like, so this is where they filmed that kind of stuff. I always wondered.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Purpose, drive. There's different levels, right? I could sit here and give a whole eight-hour blog on white nationalism, starting from the KKK, which is more of a Christian identity where they take the Christian belief and twist the Bible stories to match their ideology. And then you get into Christian identity just as a whole with neo-Nazis.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And that would be your Reverend Butler and Red Ray Fair and all that stuff that was going on when they would wear like the blue shirts and the pants and all that stuff. They're propaganda flags and monikers. And then we saw a movement where white supremacists cleaned up. So now you've got these clean-cut white guys, no tattoos, suit and ties, and they call that kind of like entryism.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
They're trying to blend in with general society and get into politics. In their mind, they're thinking if we infiltrate the right, They get further to where it's just for whites, which I still, I don't think there's a lot of afterthought. I'm pretty sure you and I or anybody with common sense would realize, hey, you only allow whites in this restaurant. I think it would pop out a little bit.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
You look a lot like Superman with glasses on. Right. Yes, exactly. But- They would also infiltrate the left politically and try to bring it down from the inside. So they believe there's a political solution to save the white race. The big group that we talk about in the book or I talk about me as the primary undercover in the FBI, we went in and infiltrated.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
Those were groups called accelerations, and they're still out there. Accelerationism is scary. I know there's a movie. It may already be out. It's coming out called The Order, and it is based on the group called The Order in the 80s. They had that mentality and that ideology, but they weren't calling it accelerationism then.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So an accelerationist, they don't believe that there is a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or from man-made events, and they want to speed that up. Hence, acceleration. I see. So... They look at a lot of things like, it's almost like militia meets white supremacy.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
to the board picture it picture a board stuck to the back of you hooked to your ball sack
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So these guys are training for what they believe is D-Day, which is going to be the start of the race war, which they called the Boogaloo. At least when I was in it, they called it the Boogaloo. And they look at guerrilla warfare tactics. Take this power grid down over here, derail a train over here, shoot a leftist journalist over here, poison a water system here. Just chaos.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So a picture I like to paint is when we were having all the riots all over the country. And I'm not saying there wasn't a good reason to riot. I'm just saying you had riots all over the country. You had the defund the police movement. You had towns being set on fire like infernos, police stations being vandalized or possibly taken over a courthouse. The same thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
An acceleration is the sitting up on the hill with their guns, building up their kit, and they're happy. They're like, please keep killing each other. Keep shooting each other. Keep burning the town down because we're going to come down and clean it up afterwards. And it always ends with like an ethno state, any of those ideologies in the white supremacy realm.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
And by the time I retired in 21, within that previous two year timeframe, a lot of other sources of information were telling us. And what we were getting was, That two years prior, being an accelerationist was kind of cringe. Adam Woffin was like the first big one. James Mason, longtime white supremacist neo-Nazi, wrote the book Siege. And it's basically a bunch of articles.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
He idolized Charles Manson, stuff like that. What a good role model, if you want to follow somebody. Stuff like that. And it was kind of like get away from the standing on the corner with picket signs. That's doing nothing. Sit back, do the guerrilla warfare, hit them here, light hits here, a lot of stuff like that. So they called that the siege mentality.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
So it was Atomwaffen and then the base came after that. The base was more of an umbrella.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
I don't think so. I don't think we ever confirmed it. I could call my buddy. He's still active, but I don't think anybody ever confirmed. But look, you say that your group is called the base. Al Qaeda in English is the base. Al Qaeda's M.O. was three to five man sales. I always try to correct it because I know I got a country accent.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
c-e-l-l oh so people don't think you're saying sales yeah so three to five man sales all over the world waiting for that call for d-day that was al-qaeda's model that was the basis model three to five man sales all over the world waiting for the call for d-day preparing your kit preparing for training and we train each other uh survivalist group waiting for that day to come and i'm talking about in these groups you would see young kids
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
don't have a job, don't have a car, but they've got an arsenal. They're wearing plate carriers. Their plate carriers, at least the group I was in, Cryo Precision 2.0, that's the same stuff the FBI's wearing. That's expensive stuff. Yeah, wow. And they're saving up money for that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1132: Scott Payne | Infiltrating America's Extremist Underworld
It may not be police. It may be military, U.S. Military One. There's all kinds of things out there to shop for plate carriers and whatnot. And then you start stocking up on your ammo and your weapons and building your kid out. They call it your battle rattle.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Or it was gambling illegal. Illegal in California, yeah. Es kann also ein Karten-Spiel sein, ich weiĂź nicht, es kann alles sein. Ich werde nichts sagen ĂĽber die Art von Menschen, die es gibt, aber es gibt einige rote Flagge.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Sie bekommen die Pipeline. Like in Chinatown in New York City or just whatever. It could be Little Italy for that matter. But people from overseas, when they come in, they bring the stuff with them. Yeah. Because that's what they're used to doing.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Es ist ein kompliziertes Interesse.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So, I was a uniformed cop in South Carolina. You got beat areas, right? Beat areas one through, I don't know, 15, whatever. At my sheriff's office, they actually had us do follow-up investigations. A lot of places, uniforms arrives, does the report, turns in, and that's it.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But if it was like under $10,000 theft and stuff, they let you do it, which I really appreciated, because it helped me start building investigative skills and learning on the street. But back then, there weren't really any cell phones. There were pagers. What do you do? There was one gas station that served everything. I can't remember if it was a pantry, 7-Eleven, something like that.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
It was right where all three or four bead areas connected. I think it was three right there. I would go in there and use their phone. They'd give you free coffee. And plus, I mean, it's a great deterrent for crime. If you've got a cop car sitting in the parking lot, so I'd go in there and I'd talk. Again, I'm just connecting with people.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But the manager was gay and his boyfriend worked there as well, or his partner worked there. And they always used to bust my chops and I'd bust theirs. We'd laugh and pranks and whatnot. But when I found out I got vice narcotics and I was going to be going to narcotics, I went in and I go, hey man, check it out. I'm going to narcotics. But I had the high and tight still.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I had the cheesy peach fuzz and mustache. And they were like, so what do you think you're going to be doing? I'm like, well, I started throwing ideas out and they started laughing. They're like, did you scream cop? You look like a cop. There's some things you got to change. So they started helping me. I'm like, if I wanted to be buying cocaine in the bar scene right now, what would I be wearing?
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And they were like, they started picking clothes and sunglasses. I started calling my fashion consultants.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich denke, das ist eine Linie in dem Buch. Sie hatten einen Pack von Sonnenblättern. Und ich war so, hey Mann, was ist mit diesen? Und ich habe sie an die Person gelegt und der Mann war so, gestern. Und ich war so, ich brauche euch alle. Ich brauche Hilfe.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ja, sie haben den AuĂźenschein, ja. Ich erinnere mich, ich hatte so neue Timberlands. Ich hatte baggige Corduroy-Panzen, weil das das Ding war. Und dann, ich weiĂź nicht, wie ein T-Shirt, was auch immer.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You got to be believable. And this is where a lot of people think about undercover. And when I'm out training and speaking, I mean, I'll ask, what do you think undercover is? Some people say acting. I go, okay, what else do you think it is? Lying. Pretend to be something you're not. The true definition of undercover work is you're forming relationships that you're most likely going to betray.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
That sucks if you look at it that way, but you need to be able to figure out a way you're going to do it and rationalize it in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on you.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
other than maybe a pedophile. But if I sit down with you and we've arrested you, I can't tell you how many times I've said, look, I'm not saying that you're a bad person. I'm not saying I disagree with what you did. What I'm saying is you're an adult and you chose to break the law and you got caught. And here we are. So let's just start from there.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But yeah, thinking of the undercover thing and the look, this is me. Again, I may shave it down too. I look terrible with no facial hair, in my personal opinion. The last time I had no facial hair at all was 2000. And that didn't last that long. But you gotta be you. This is the way I was trained and this is what I think. Anytime you are something that you're not,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
pretend to be something that's opposite of you for a long period of time, especially in deep cover, generally one or two things are going to happen. You're either going to slip up and they're going to catch you or you're going to become it. So I've always been Scott, the jovial country guy. I may or may not have kids. I may or may not be a musician, singer.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I may not have gone to college, played football in college, whatever. But you can pretty much bet I lift weights and I ride motorcycles. That's pretty much a given, no matter what I look like. But if your background is an accountant, like I've had friends that come up and they go, man, I couldn't do what you did. Again, my skill set didn't take me to Wall Street undercover.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
The FBI works everything. I've got plenty of friends, mentors, peers, people I've mentored that do some high level stuff, art theft, all kinds of things, tons of money, very expensive stuff. And they're in nice hotels and they're having wine and cheese and My skill set puts me in the woods with a bunch of drug addicts.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But there's always a propensity for violence because some of your white-collar crimes and stuff like that, sometimes you have to worry about them more when you put that first handcuff on than you do the career criminal who's been to jail and said they don't want to go back. Because it's such a shock and now they know, hey, this is real.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Or it may not be that their freedom is threatening them, but by you arresting them and charging them, you're threatening their belief system, a radical extremist. You gotta be on your P's and Q's, man.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
When I came in, as soon as I could, I grew my ponytail back and I've had some older... Agents that see me and I got down to Texas and there was one older guy and he's like, Hoover would be rolling over in his grave if he knew you'd gotten hired. I said, Hoover would have never hired me, man. I said, I had earrings and tattoos when I got hired. But I never lied about anything I'd done.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I was just blessed that I never got caught. Hätte ich mich getroffen, wäre es ein Rekord gewesen. Und wenn du einen Verbrecher auf deinem Rekord hast, kannst du kein Polizist werden.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I would say yes, but when we met and we started dating, I was already a vice narcotics investigator. She was on mountain time. So I was in South Carolina, so she was always two hours behind. So I might get off at midnight, but it's 10 o'clock her time. I'd call her and we'd talk for a couple of hours. Aber ja, damals war es so wie, wie war dein Abend? Ich war ziemlich gut, Mann.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich habe ein paar Kokain gekauft und ein paar Hooker gekauft. Die In-Laws mussten das lieben. Es war ein ziemlich guter Joke, das erste Mal. Ich meine, was? Er tut was. Aber ja, aber das bedeutet nicht, dass es fĂĽr sie einfach war.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Yeah, Outlaws and Hells Angels are probably the two biggest. I'd say the big four are probably one percenter clubs. Hells Angels, Outlaws, Bandidos... I don't know if Pagans or Mongols. I think Mongols are smaller. Pagans will probably come after that. Yeah, those are some big ones. ATF does do a lot of the biker things, but that doesn't mean we can't work it.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I actually had that argument with a supervisor when I got to Knoxville. We were talking. You did Undercross? I said, yeah, I was two years with the outlaws of Massachusetts. He goes, I thought the ATF worked biker gangs. And I said, you thought wrong. We can do them too, man. We had Title 21 and Title 18. We could work it.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So maybe it's easier to say it like this. There are violations like the white supremacy stuff and things like that that happen really fast from my experience. In other words, you're online. Hey, bro, what's up? What's up with you? Yeah, white power this, white power that. Yeah, man, you're solid. You're solid, too. Hey, can you get me a bomb?
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And everybody's like, holy shit, we got to find an undercover to go face to face. What I consider the more traditional is you've got a case team that's been working and building for a year plus easy, gathering intelligence. And now they've gotten the case to a point to where they want to do an undercover. And you're walking in there, hadn't been on the case ever.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And they're expecting you to walk on water. They're looking at you like you're a specialist. Can you imagine if you'd be a case agent, putting all your sweat and blood and tears and time into an investigation for a year and a half to two years, and I walk in there and the first 24 hours I blow it because of something I did that was stupid?
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Not good at all, no. I'm also a case agent. I wasn't just an undercover. I led plenty of cases as a case agent through my career. So you hope that the team has good intelligence. I will tell you, you mentioned ATF, so I'll say this. Kind of the MO for many, many years of biker stuff is you hang around. So you hang around, you become a hang around. Then you probate.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
This is me. I cleaned up for the academy. Usually my look is a goatee with sideburns, but I've had long hair most of my life and of course when I'm a uniformed cop you gotta keep it short and then no facial hair back then. You can grow your mustache to the peak of your lip right there and that's it. So I went in the academy and I had the cheesy thin mustache and the high and tight
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Once you're probated in, you are a probationary member. And most clubs, it was a minimum of six months in their bylaws. You got to do six months and you're going to have a sponsor or somebody they'll call like your dad. Let's say, Jordan, you're my sponsor. Ja, genau. But once you pass probation, you're now a member. And that was kind of the MO for a lot of undercovers.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And I'll tell you, I never patched with the Outlaws. I wanted to. Mentally, I would love to have a cut. But we went with a different route because over the last 30, 40 years in 1%er Biker Clubs, there have been hundreds and hundreds, probably even more, Ja, genau. But the cases didn't work or they lost themselves or they lost their family or there's all kinds of things that can go on.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And I will tell you, before we get deep in the outlaw stuff, when the outlaws case happened, I was only about 10 years in the FBI, I think. And I was like, man, I'm in the middle of my career and I've already done one of these things. I'm probably going to have four more of these cases.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Before I retired, the longer I got in the tooth and the more I learned, it's really hard to have all the stars line up to be deep undercover in a violent gang where violent things are happening around you. And the case is able to continue. Me personally have been involved in numerous cases. You start going and then the source craps the bed or somebody gets legitimately hurt.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And FBI and United States Attorney's Office is like, we're not doing this undercover. We're taking this problem like a murder or something. Or your management and your division loses interest. They're like, this is taking too long. Shut it down. So. Mit den Outlaws, wir hatten viele Informationen, ich sage wir, die FBI, das Case-Team da oben, hat sich gekackt.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Speziell waren es zwei Taskforce-Officer. Einer war ein Brockton-Polizei-Detektiv und der andere war ein Sergeant mit den Massachusetts State Troopers, die Experten auf den Outlaw Motorcycle Club waren. So I go up there as a possible interview to be the undercover for the case. And it was like very American idol-ish.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I'm sitting at a table surrounded by FBI, of course, but DEA, local police departments, task forces. I think ATF was there too. And you're just getting grilled. So how many undercovers have you done? What do you know about undercover bikers? Have you ever been in a biker gang? So I get it. You're just trying to vet and make sure you got the right one. But whatever I did, I passed.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And somebody vouched for me. who was a very well-respected undercover. So they had a lot of intelligence. And they were like, hey, we know that this guy sells dope, this guy sells dope. We got a source that says this. So everything predicated. We're not just going in there blind. The intelligence was that there was a member named Spanky. And he loved to get attention.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Because when you go to the PX on Quantico's Marine Corps base, most of the ladies working in the shop were Vietnamese. And no matter what I told them, I got the same haircut every time.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
He had to be the center of attention. He loved it. And he loved being surrounded by big dudes. I'm 6'4", and at that time I was probably running about 280. Those were the days. They have that pretty much down, but I'm asking questions. I'm like, hey, so where do they go?
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
For the ones that don't know biker clubs, especially one percenters, they have a mandatory meeting every week and they call that church. Some do it on Wednesday night, some do it on Thursday night. And depending on the club or the chapter, there'll be things like put your cell phones on airplane mode, leave them outside because we're going to talk business. Nothing illegal, of course.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
With the quotes, illegal. But I said, hey, when they go to this strip club, do they wear their colors? And they said no. And I thought, this won't be so bad. I had my legend built, my backstory. Because, I mean, what's a guy with this accent doing in Massachusetts? If I'm here on legitimate business, then what the hell is my business that brings me to Massachusetts? It's got to look real.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You want it to be believable. And it needs to be something I can speak comfortably about. What I did is because I used to work in gentlemen's clubs before I became a cop, which I'll use that term loosely. It's more of an oxymoron because there's no gentleman in there and neither was I back in those days. But a little worldly, living in the flesh, as they say back then.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But I knew how those environments work. So what I did is I made sure that I went to the clubs, that particular club, when nobody else, like it wasn't full of outlaws. You go into a place like that where it's about money, you pay for a dance, you pay $20 over, whatever it is these days, I don't know. But if it's $20 for a dance, I'd pay more.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
If it's a day shift or a slow shift, whatever, it's like watching fire spread, you know, like a wildfire. It's like, boom, they're like, hey man, that guy's over there, he's got money. Plus with this accent, I can start bringing some attention and that's, I just did me. And I start telling jokes. Human nature is always to exaggerate.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
The fish you caught was actually this big, but by the time you get to the 10th person, man, I caught, it was a whale. And that's what happened. By the time we decided to go and make the bump, I didn't want to go in with the source. I wanted to go in cold and do my own thing. I went in and here they come. I get the call, hey man, they're leaving, blah, blah, blah. They're leaving the clubhouse.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
This should be on their way. They walk in, well, it's like 13 to 15 outlaws and they all have their cuts on. Und ich dachte mir, das ändert Dinge. Denn vorher war es ein Tattoo-Dude, der trinkt, hört auf Heavy Metal, stört auf nackte Frauen. Und jetzt bin ich so, okay, wie mache ich das? Weil ich weiß nicht, was ich tue.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich gehe mit diesem Akzent auf die ganze Gruppe und vielleicht nehmen sie die Rückseite und ich sage, hey, sind ihr richtig? Ich werde wahrscheinlich einen Schluck nehmen. Ich habe einfach angefangen, mich, Mann, zu erzählen, und das, das und das andere. Und sicher genug, Spanky Bites. Ja, charmeffensiv. Ich mag das. Let's call that night played out.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And next thing you know, he's yelling across the bar. Where the F are you from? I'm like, I'm from here. I cracked some stupid joke and he starts laughing. And then I can't remember if he called me over. I sent a drink over or whatever. Did not be suspicious. Just be like, I'm just being me. I'll do the same thing. It's got pain in the bar.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And then he calls me over and we start talking and I start saying stuff and they did. I remember being in the bathroom and I remember the door kicking open.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And for the listeners that don't know, like in a lot of bars, especially in the men's, I don't know women's bathrooms, but in the men's bathroom, you're walking up to a urinal and you usually got some case in front of you at eye level and it's got posters and stickers and this concert coming up and this dancer's arriving then, you know, all that kind of stuff.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But you got that plexiglass, you got a little bit of reflection. So I'm looking and he kicks that door open, this big dude, Jack, named Scott Town. And I see him looking around the bathroom and I see him, I can't remember if he pushed the stall doors open, but I know at a minimum he leaned down and looked to make sure there were no feet.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Then I see him kind of walking up to me, but again, I'm watching a reflection and I think I'm getting ready to get jacked. For a split second, I'm like, I'm getting ready to get roughed up. But he didn't. He just came up and said, so what brings you to Massachusetts? He starts schooling me. Ich habe mich nicht beantwortet, aber wir haben es sehr gut gemacht.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und bevor die Nacht vorbei war, hatten sie mich eingeladen, zum Northeast Regional fĂĽr die Outlaws zu kommen. Und es war die Lobsterfest in Brockton, Massachusetts, in ihrer Brockton Clubhouse.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Depends. Not everybody's dirty, of course. I'm not saying that 1%er clubs are doing illegal stuff, but that's kind of what being a 1%er is.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Yeah, it goes back to when the main guy, like selling motorcycles, coined the term basically that 99 Prozent der Motorcycling-Enthusiasten sind gute Leute. Es sind nur die 1 Prozent, die schlecht sind, weil die Leute aus dem 2. Weltkrieg zurĂĽckgekommen sind. All diese Leute und Vietnam und all das. Und es ist wie all diese Jahre.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und sie kreieren diese Biker-Clubs, die gefährliche Dinge machen und Hölle erheben und Sachen öffnen und Regeln brechen. Also war sein Punkt, dass das nur 1 Prozent der Motorcycling-Ryder sind. Also haben sie das als Anerkennung genommen.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Not the ones in this particular case. I met Joe Dawgs. He was the president of the Taunton Chapter. And as soon as he found out, pretty much immediately when he found out, where are you from? I'm like Texas, but I'm down close to the border. I'm in McAllen. His next sentence was, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? I was right out of the gate.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So I'm like, there's your predication, if we were wondering. Again, on a lot of cases, I'm just trying to ingratiate. We may know, like some of these white supremacy cases, it's just like, you get in, I'm befriending, I'm connecting, but are they really doing anything illegal or on a federal level?
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Du musst es kontrollieren. Kannst du dir vorstellen, wenn ein Kilo Kokain in unserer Besitzung war und dann es auf die StraĂźen gebracht wurde und jemand auf es O.D. gemacht hat? Oder jemand hat es gemacht und einen Krieg verurteilt. Das ist alles eine Verleihbarkeit.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I just remember they stopped serving alcohol at 2 in the morning and at 4 everybody was still going. And I was like, what the hell are these people on? They must be sneaking booze in. You're close. They're like, you rolling, man? You rolling? I'm like, I mean, yeah, I guess. I don't know what the hell. Yeah, I drove here. Yeah, two days later, I'm like, somebody's like, oh man, this rave.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I wonder where they're getting all this cocaine from.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Schau in den Norden nach, das ist deine alte Mafia-Stuffe. Sie haben Trucks immer rausgenommen. Du siehst jemanden, der Mattressen verkauft. Was zur Hölle hast du diese Maschinen für? Das ist das, was sie aus dem Truck bekommen haben. Aber denk an Zigaretten wie in Gefängnissen. Wenn du in der Gefängnis bist, sind Zigaretten Geld. Das ist Geld.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und du sprichst von einem separaten Fall, wo ich das gemacht habe. Aber tatsächlich, ich wollte nur etwas tun, um zu zeigen, dass ich ein Kriminal war, den wir kontrollieren können. Und die Zigaretten gingen so schnell. I was like, oh, this is it. Because I'm like, they don't have problems getting their dope, which I wasn't going to sell them dope anyway.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But they don't have problems with this and this, but they all smoke and they hate the price. Let's just say that the one case that I did that in was around 2010-ish. Say an average carton back then was like 50-something dollars for a carton. And if I'm selling them at a stolen price of 20 a carton,
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
People were trading them, and that's back when the opioid epidemic was really kicking off and growing. And that's when Oxy-80s were prevalent, and you could just crush them. And you're getting 80 milligrams of pure Oxy, which is basically heroin. And they went for a dollar a milligram, I remember. So somebody would give me two Oxy-80s for a carton of cigarettes. I made profit on that, right?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
If you're a businessman and you're thinking about it, they just gave me $160 worth of pills, and I gave them $20 worth of cigarettes. Ja, genau. Ja, genau. Und wenn wir wissen, dass wir mehr haben. Ich meine, es ist immer so, du gehst, wo der Fall dich nimmt. Und es ist schwer in langfristigen Fällen.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And I go, what the hell is a rave? And they're like, oh shit, I was there.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich denke, eine der schwersten Entscheidungen, wenn du der Fallagent oder der Unterkopf bist, ist, wann du den Plug drĂĽcken kannst. Es gibt immer den Anruf, hey, aber 30 mehr Tage. Oder wenn ich nur diesen Mann treffen kann, ist es manchmal schwer, wirklich zu entscheiden, es ist Zeit, Chalk zu drĂĽcken.
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1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ja, I really started learning about it on the undercover case I was working. And that's the first time I'd heard of being pill sick. I pick up a guy who's a possible target and he's just pouring sweat. He's like, man, I'm sick as hell. And I'm thinking, man, you may pull into, I don't know, Rite Aid, CBS, Walgreens.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You may pull in there, man, I'll get you a Theraflu, Alka-Seltzer Plus or something. He goes, no, damn it, I'm pill sick. And I'm like, what is pill sick? And that's when I started learning. But the opioid epidemic had started. And the Mecca was Fort Lauderdale. It was Broward County, Florida. I think at one point they had like 900 pain clinics in that county.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So back then, that 2009-ish, 10-era, there were, I think in the case we were doing, we uncovered like At least four groups of people. So the way it would work is you get a sponsor. Let's say I'm the sponsor. I'm the one that's got money. But I come and recruit you, Jordan, and 15 other people. And I say, look, I'll pay for your gas. I'll pay for you to get down there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I'll pay for your doctor visit and I'll pay for the prescription. But you got to bring the pills back to me. If you're a user, then you get to keep half and I pay less. But I take those pills and trade them and sell them on the street illegally. And that's what was happening. But it was so bad. We started calling down as a case team. And I'm talking to drug diversion agents with DEA.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And at that point, Florida didn't have any kind of system to track. So you could go down there and a car load, I mean, stacked in a piece of POS car that if you were not driven, we couldn't make it out of this neighborhood I'm in. But they made it all the way to Florida and back. And they go down, they go to a doctor's office, they pay 300, 350 bucks cash.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You go in, they don't even hardly look at you. They write you a script. You're in the same building. You walk out the door and the pharmacy is under the same roof. So you go ahead and get your script filled. They drive down the street to the next pain clinic. They hit three or four of them before they come back.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Vielleicht werden sie von einem Stadttrooper oder einer Art Interdiktions-Unit ĂĽbernommen und sie besiegen alles. Aber es gab nichts, es gab keinen Widerstand. Und ich meine, an einem Punkt hatten sie ein MRI im Hintergrund eines Tractor-Trailers, nur der Trailer selbst, hinter dem Skript-Club. So kannst du dein MRI in der Mitte des Tanzes bekommen.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und es gab zwei Brüder, die die amerikanische Schmerzklinik hatten. Und es war großartig. Also schlussendlich schlägt Florida runter. Und was passiert, ist, dass die Schmerzkliniken anfangen zu bewegen. Sie beginnen, aus da rauszukommen.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und was sie tun, ist, dass sie schauen und sagen, okay, aus all den Aus-State-Plätzen, die hier kommen, und unseren Aus-State-Patienten, wo kommen die meisten her? Und Ost-Tennessee und Südwest-Kentucky waren groß. Also, kurz gesagt, sie sind hier hergekommen und haben Schmerzkliniken aufgebaut. Und als Fallagent, ich und ein Freund meines und die Heide Task Force,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
did about a year and a half investigation. We did wiretaps, I ran the undercover, we brought in undercovers, and it was, again, hand over for cash. And I would be a sponsor, and I would have you, but then it was once a month, because they cracked down, you couldn't just doctor shop.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But once a month, I'm bringing everybody in, or scattered throughout the month, and I'm paying for everything, and we're just turning the pills over on the street. It looked like a fallout shelter. I mean, it was no secret. You walk in and people are nodding out like they got a rig in their arm, like they're on heroin. They're passed out in a chair.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And back to what you were saying, in one pain clinic we had in particular, they didn't like all the congregation of vehicles. And they did this in Florida too. But they didn't like it because they thought it attracted bad attention, law enforcement attention, if you will. So literally across a Ja, genau. I'm hurting, I'm hurting. And then they come out, I don't know, 30 minutes to an hour later.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
They have the prescription in their hand and they're waving it like the kid on Willy Wonka. He got the golden ticket. And they're now playing Frogger, which is an old video game. I'm telling my age here. But they are dodging vehicles across six lanes of traffic. trying not to get hit by a car, running. This is the same person that was limping walking in, by the way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And they're running to bring their script and then they go to a pharmacy in Philadelphia.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Yeah, and the one we did in Tennessee, we uncovered like dirty nurses, dirty staff members. But when you're running a wiretap, you're usually trying to decode everything. It might be a new gang with new slang, and we're trying to figure out what cheddar is, or we're trying to figure out what this one is, and what are they calling a hamburger, whatever their thing is.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Doesn't matter whether it's a Hispanic Title III or whatever, you're still trying to figure it out. On the pill stuff, the sponsor would call in and say, I got two new members. And they go, okay, I need their name, date of birth, social security number, because it's still medical. So it made it easy to identify everybody.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But we ended up taking down four pill mills here, and our first round of indictments on a drug conspiracy was 102 people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Nein, nein, ich bin sicher.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Es gibt viele Faktoren, die dazu kommen, und es wird situationell abhängig sein. Aber nehmen wir zum Beispiel den Outlaws-Fall. Es war die gesamten zwei Jahre. Es war ich, der FBI-Fallagent und die zwei Taskforce-Officer. And they got to know me. So they know my baseline. I've talked to people and they ask, hey, did you have a code word? Did you have this, that and the other?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I'm like, man, I learned this early on as a narcotics officer at the sheriff's office. By bus, they're supposed to be quick. You come in, you surround them with cars. I don't care if it's two inches. It seemed like they'd always make it out and we're on a foot chase. And here's the thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
If you had a signal like, okay, when I get what I need, I'm going to take my hat off and I'm going to tap my head. Never do that. Ever. But for whatever reason, subconsciously, you don't realize it. We're all watching. Undercover takes their hat off, taps their head, but it's just because their head was itching. So now you're rushing in. So there's so many things that go into that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But for me personally, they're like, you have a code word. I'm like, yeah, if I yell help multiple times in a row, not help, but if I'm going help, help, help, that's my code word.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I usually had, boy, it sure is hot in the winter here. Again, I say, it sure is hot in the winter. What are you talking about? Nothing. Turkey. Turkey, help me. No, so on that particular case, that's the outlaws case. I'd been undercover for a year and a half. We had done numerous jobs. In other words, they had sold me reported stolen vehicles that I bought at a stolen price.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And they believed we're going back to Mexico, which is, I lived on the border. I was using truthful things that you could find out that weren't lies. And why did the white guy not get cut out? The gringo never get cut out? Because my story was, is I was the one that was paying the dirty border patrol and ICE agents at the checkpoints on the port of entry. Because
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Otherwise, I'd probably get cut out. They'd cut the gringo out. And then that's when we started using some truck drivers and they were undercovers and they were out there. And it's kind of like a cameo appearance, which is just basically, you're showing up, you're undercover, but we're putting... Und wir haben alle möglichen Arbeiten gemacht. Ich meine, sie haben sogar jemanden verletzt.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Das bedeutet, sie haben ihn aus der Waffe genommen, den Auto verletzt und sie waren so, hey, wir mĂĽssen das Text entfernen. Es hat Low Jack drauf, was heute eigentlich auf Star ist. Und sie denken, wir nehmen das nach Mexiko, aber wirklich, wir sammeln Beweise. So I've done all kinds of things like that. They were speculated, which we pretty much knew.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ja, ich sehe das. Das wäre schwierig. Es scheint, dass die Demografie für Crack nicht eine normale Persönlichkeit ist. Ja. Wir reden von der Mitte der 90er-Jahre, also ja, es war immer noch ziemlich präsent, aber ich sah nicht so aus wie ein Krack-Head.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
We just couldn't pinpoint the person enough to be beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. But a Hells Angel president and another Hells Angel were shot while they were riding in Bridgeport, Connecticut. The president was killed, but the other Hells Angel didn't die. And he saw that it was a green truck with Florida plates. We knew that the outlaws from Florida were up visiting
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und später haben wir einige Geschichten bekommen. Hey, erinnere dich an das Ding, das wir im Norden gemacht haben, aber du konntest nie wirklich genug auf jemanden abhängen. Aber all das war los. Und ich rufe an und sie sagen, hey, wenn du rauskommst, musst du dich anziehen. Ich bin so, ich weiß nicht, ob ich mit diesem Kind von Dingen fliege.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Sie sagten, wenn du hier kommst, werden wir dir eine Waffe geben, wir werden dir eine Waffe geben. Aber wir haben den Anteil erhöht. Nach einem Jahr und einem halben Jahr habe ich angefangen, Brötchen zu legen. Ja, ich war früher in der Dope-Game. Sie sahen mich an, sie dachten, ich wäre ein hochrangiger Mitglied eines internationalen Wettbewerbs. Aber es hat Sinn gemacht.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und die Geschichte, die ich herausgelegt habe, und sie sagten, ich habe endlich gelassen, dass ich in der Dope-Game war. Ich habe mich davon ausgedrĂĽckt, weil einige Leute, die mir nahe waren, begonnen, zu werden. Und ich habe mich davon ausgedrĂĽckt. But lo and behold, my contact at the cartel reached back out to me and he needed help transporting some stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So we laid out this story that they believed and more importantly, they wanted it. As a drug dealer, you're always looking for good product for a lower price. That means you make more money. Actually, if it's really, really pure, most of the time, somebody's going to step on it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Which is in other words, for the people that don't know, if you got a kilo of cocaine and it's 98% pure, you can step on it two, three times. And that means you just mix something with it and now you've got two kilos. And now you've got three kilos for the same price. So they saw it as an opportunity to meet somebody from the cartel. And they ended up
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
pulling security for we had 40 kilos of cocaine real and a thousand pounds of weed real. And again, that was 2005 to 2008. So it's not like weed now. It was still a pretty big deal to be illegal back then. So we were lining that all up. It had been a year and a half and the United States Attorney's Office said, hey, Scott, we'd like you to be able to get
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So, natürlich habe ich gesagt, ja, ich meine, das ist, was wir tun, richtig? Ich habe eine Type-A-Personalität, ich gehe rein, ich habe das. Und ich habe nicht gedacht. Und ich gehe in die Clubhouse. Joe Dogg sagt, die Nacht bevor wir den Deal machen werden. Und Joe sagt, hey Mann, ich brauche dich in die Clubhouse zu kommen. Ich bin so cool. Ich bin da wie ein Teen Times.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich meine, über das Jahr und ein halbes Zeitpunkt. Also gehe ich und komme da hin und die Tür schließt. Ich gehe hoch und klicke auf die Tür, wo sie eine Kirche haben, was ihre tägliche Meeting ist, richtig? Und er will nicht die Tür beantworten. Und dann öffnet sich die Tür und es ist alles seltsam, weil er seine Gesichter in es drückt. Ich soll nicht da sein.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und er ist so, wir sind ein bisschen beschäftigt. Warum nicht gehen Sie etwas essen und dann kommen Sie zurück? Ich sagte zu ihm, warum hast du mir gesagt, dass Sie kommen? Wenn du nicht bereit bist, warum hast du mir gesagt, dass du bereit bist? Also habe ich nichts davon gedacht.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich gehe und wir kriegen etwas zu essen, haben einen Trinken oder zwei, kommen zurück und warten, bis Joe Dog sagt, es ist okay, zu kommen. Ich gehe rein. Und was passiert ist, ich habe Rekordgeräte auf mir. Ich habe Audio, ich habe Video und Audio. Ich habe einen Transmitter, die Räder bis zum Hilt, im Grunde genommen.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Aber was ich nicht gesehen habe, ist, dass ich Jokes wie ich es normalerweise mache. Und sie lachen alle. Aber sagen wir mal, dass mein Video-Rekordgerät nach links geht, aber ich schalte mich nach rechts. Was ich nicht gesehen habe, ist, dass wenn ich schalte, man, sie würden stone-faced gehen. Ich habe es nicht gesehen, richtig?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich habe auch nicht gesehen, dass Chocolate Scott in der Rückseite warmt. Es sieht aus, als würde er zu dem Beat eines Songs gehen, aber er ist tatsächlich warm, weil er puncht. Ich wusste nicht. Schattenboxen.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich wusste nicht wirklich, dass ich all das verpasst habe. Durch diesen zweijährigen Fall, war mein nahestes Verhältnis, das ich als Scott Calloway entwickelt habe, war, er war ein großer Typ. Er hat nicht gepatcht, aber Mann, er war super respektiert von den Outlaws. Und er und ich klickten. Wir klickten so viel, es war furchtbar. Wie nah wir waren, war furchtbar.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Wir haben uns alle verabschiedet. Letztlich hätte ich den gleichen Jungen bei dem proverbialen Fork in the Road gewesen, wenn ich die andere Richtung gegangen wäre. Also war es Scottsdale und dann Closeline. Brian De La Vega. Closeline war der Anwalt für den Tompton-Chapter. Und er war mein zweiter dichter Kontakt. Und dann wäre es Joe Dawson auf dem Boden. So I'm in there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I'm having a few drinks. And for those that don't know, at least in this one percenter clubhouse, you're not a past member. Once you're inside that clubhouse, the door shut, multiple deadbolts, steel bar across the door. You are not allowed to touch it. You're not allowed to touch the phone because you're not a past member. But I was respected and, you know, I gained their trust. So I'm in there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And that's when Clothesline asked me, he says, hey, Tex, you got a minute. And I'm like, yeah. Und aus all den Zeiten, die ich in diesem Clubhaus gelebt habe, so lange ich da hing, gab es eine TĂĽr, in die ich nie reingegangen bin. Und das war die TĂĽr, in die wir reingegangen sind. Und es war ein tiefer Stairwell, der bis hin zu, man kann sagen, es ist ein Basement, aber das ist generell.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Es war mehr wie ein Keller. Ich konnte nicht aufstehen. Ich bin 6'4, wahrscheinlich 6'5 mit Boots an, vielleicht 6'6, ich weiĂź es nicht. Aber ich konnte wahrscheinlich die Wand auf beiden Seiten bewegen. Also gehen wir da runter. And it's tight, it's dark, and now I'm starting to get that oh shit moment. I'm like, oh boy, I'm getting an adrenaline dump. I'm like, this is not good.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
What the hell is going on? And that adrenaline dump, it doesn't matter if it's a shooting or a car wreck. If you've been in a traumatic incident, you basically, when you have that adrenaline dump, you get auditory exclusion. So in other words, everything you're hearing sounds like it's whoosh, like it's going, whoa. You sound like you're underwater. And then you get time dilation.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Your eyes start clicking. You look and everything's slowing down and just clicking. And your hamstrings get rubbery and you can feel your heart beating and all that stuff. So I go down there and I'm looking for plastic. I saw a rope. They've already shown me they've got pistols. And I didn't see plastic. Had I seen plastic, I probably would have tried to fight. But what am I going to do?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
13 outlaws. I'm downstairs. Do I think I can handle myself? Yeah, I do. But I mean, come on. What am I going to do? Yeah, you're not Captain America. My friend proceeds to tell me. dass es viel geht und es sein Job ist, seine BrĂĽder zu kĂĽmmern.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und er sagt mir, dass ich alle meine Kleidung entferne und meinen vollen Namen, meine Kleidung, meine Weibes- und Kindesnamen und meine Telefonnummer schreibe, die er hatte. Also habe ich wirklich einen No-Crap-Moment. Also basically I take off my jacket, I take off my shirt or however many shirts I had on. It's Massachusetts, it's cold. And then I take off my boots.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And I dropped my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. So I'm like, now I'm standing there and he's checking everything and checking me out. But when I go to write my name down, because of the panic and the oh crap moment, I forgot my middle name. It's not like me because I mean, I know it. I created it. It's me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Right. But as I'm doing it, and again, it feels like it's five minutes. It's probably only 30 seconds. But in my mind, I'm going through a Rolodex. I'm going, Scott. Joseph Calloway. Scott, I'm like, no, no, no, no. Joseph was my middle name on another alias I had. And I'm doing all this stuff, just rushing. But I don't realize that I do. I never even knew I said it till I saw the recording.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And I basically, I'm buying time. I look at him and I say, what else do you need? My name and what else? Und dann fangen sie an, auf die Probe zu schreien, um zu sagen, hey, was musst du auf dieser Webseite machen? Jetzt bekomme ich ein bisschen Intelligenz. Ich bin so, okay, sie werden mich auf, was damals populär war, was whoserat.com.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Jemand, der von NARC verletzt wurde, wĂĽrde versuchen, seine Bilder und Namen zu bekommen und sie wĂĽrden es auf dieser Webseite legen. I knew they were going to Google me or whatever. So I'm doing that and then I remember my initials were SAC because I thought it was funny because usually SAC is the head of a division, special agent in charge, and I knew I wasn't going to be one.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I just thought it was funny to be SAC.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Uncle Hank. Uncle Hank, yeah. So I go and I remember my middle name. I write it down. He pats me. It's scary. I'm talking to him and I'm looking at him and if you looked at my face, what I was saying in the clothesline was, Tell me I'm gonna be okay. And what I was picking up, no matter what he said back was, it's okay. He told me at one point, he said, trust me, man.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
He goes, if somebody was accusing me of being a fed, I'd smash them in their fucking mouth. And I said, I'm not happy. And he said, I wouldn't be either. So he didn't find anything. So I started to put my clothes back on. And then he grabs a piece of clothing that I've got. And somewhere in that piece of clothing was another recording device.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And he says, hey, I'm not going to find anything in here that I don't want to. Like some naked pictures of my old lady. And he laughs. But my laugh, because I'm still having an old crap moment, is like...
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And then he hands it back to me. And I immediately go back into business and start talking. I'm like, can you hug me now? I'm cracking jokes because it's a defense mechanism for me. And I'm like, oh, at least I didn't wear white underwear, you know, stuff like that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You know, he goes, I know, man, it's scary.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I think I saw him like in November, somewhere around there, October, November. He was in Tennessee. So he hit me up and then of course I dropped what I was doing and went up to see him.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
My boy took me down there and did that to me. So I go to hand my equipment in at the end of the night. And this goes back to what you talked about earlier. I go to hand my equipment in. And what I find out is pretty much every time I was in the clubhouse, I had a transmitter, but they weren't that great in 2005.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And what I was told is most of the time I was in there, the cover team could never hear me. So somebody says, and I still teach this all over the place and speak. And somebody asked me, and now my wife has actually seen it several times, but they said, hey man, what would you have done if you'd have found it? And Jordan, I remember it like it was yesterday. I only had two responses in my head.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Because he had said some naked pictures of an old lady. If he would have said, hey, what's this? I was going to say, I don't know, some naked pictures of the old lady and try to buy some time. Or the only other response I had was this. The gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell is going to break loose.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But in my mind, I thought it would have been a bluff because I didn't know if anybody could hear me or not. And then you find out later they couldn't. Well, I know, right? What I found out later is Whatever, 4 or 5 in the morning. I'm turning over equipment in an undisclosed location to the case team.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
What I found out is at the beginning of the shift, it was the sergeant from Massachusetts State Troopers and Joe, the detective from Brockton. And when I had that first interaction with Joe Dawgs, it made their spotty senses or the Holy Spirit speak to them and they said something's not right. And they heard the whole thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So what I didn't know is while I was down in the basement getting stripped at gunpoint, They had radioed back to Boston and said, hey, they got Scott in the basement and they're stripping him and he's wired. From what they tell me, everybody was hauling ass down there with blue lights and sirens on. My buddy had ended up becoming the case agent, Tim Quinn. We went to the academy together in 98.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Great dude, great guy. He got down there and he told me, he comes up to me and he says, man, when I was coming down that highway with those lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you. And I looked at him and I said, you weren't. I'm like, man, I'm like, dude, I was looking for any friend I could find down there in that basement. But here's a crazy one.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
It shows you that Joe and Higgy had gotten to know me well enough that they were listening. They could hear my voice going an octave higher or however high it went. They could hear my throat tightening up. But they were also listening to Clothesline and what was being said and Chocolate Scott. And they were ready. They went ahead and radioed it in.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Yeah, good for him.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
They put all their gear on, bulletproof vest, everything. And they had been in that clubhouse several times on local search warrants and stuff. So they knew the layout. They knew that door was heavily fortified. And their plan was to drive the van they were in if it came to it. Yeah, whatever. Thanks, guys. Back up. Yeah, no kidding. Here's the crazy one.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I bought my wife at that time a burner phone. I don't want to use an undercover phone and call her anything that's legit like my wife or the FBI, right? So I bought her a burner phone and no matter what time of night it was when I finished with the outlaws, I would call her and I'd say, hey, I'm on my way back to the hotel. I'll just call you when I wake up from sleeping.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Sometimes she'd talk to me, sometimes I was like, hey, love, you can pass back out. That night when I called her, Jordan, the first thing she said was, are you okay? I said, yeah, why? Oh, wow. Wow. You had a real close call there, man. Real close. I joke about it now, but trust me, I was scared shitless. Here's a funny comical thing. I'm sure. Guess what song was playing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
It took me like 15 plus times watching that video and listening to it. My recordings to pick up on it. But the entire time I was in the clubhouse Okay.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Nein, es ist es. Again, I think I said it earlier, but undercover work essentially is you're building relationships and you're betraying them. And you've got to figure out how you're going to do that. Scott, he had originally told me that he didn't join the outlaws because he used to do stuff for the mafia and he got wrapped up in a conspiracy.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
He was looking at 25 to life and he paid somebody a shit ton of money to get out of it. And he had four daughters. Und er wollte nichts tun, um in den Gefängnis zu risiken. Also als er alles reinholt und beginnt, über Waffen zu sprechen, die er bekommen kann, und Grenaden und so weiter, und er wollte in diese doofen Sachen rein, bin ich so, warum tust du das? Nun, bin ich dunkel?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Bin ich auf der dunklen Seite? Nein. Bin ich aufgeben, dass ich ein Unterkörper bin und wir eine Investition machen? Nein. Aber bin ich dem Mann, der geboren ist, und sage, hey, Hey, it's your boy. I miss you, brother. I know you was just doing your job, man. I just want you to know I love you. And I'm like, I love you too. And then probably, I don't know, I've been retired since 21.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
There's differences like you were talking about earlier, the grabbing somebody off the street or somebody out of the office and going, I need you to go in there and get some pills versus you actually have a certification process intensive. You've got good oversight. You've got a mentoring-type program.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So maybe somewhere around 2019, 2020, somebody sent me an obituary. And they go, hey man, isn't this the guy that you infiltrated and arrested? And it was him. And he had passed away. And it's a somber moment. Did he do a lot of crime? And was he crazy when he wanted to be crazy? Yeah. But did I bond with him? Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
We have several steps, and this isn't giving anything away. We have world working partners. At every undercover school that I participated in, there was always somebody from overseas, if not multiple. Say, Great Britain wants to come over and they want to observe our school and help, and we help each other with tradecraft, and they may need us to help them on a case, we may need them.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Stuff like that, Australia, Italy, you name it. So we have something called Safeguard. It is a process that was created by Joe Pistone, Donnie Brasco, and Steve Bann. Steve Bann was a former FBI agent, retired. He was a legit psychologist.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And after Joe did all that stuff in the Mafia, and it was probably after he retired, but he came back under Louis Free, they created the Safeguard unit because they realized that there needed to be something Um die Unterkunft mental zu schützen. Und das ist jetzt geändert. Sie beurteilen Menschen, die an Kindeskrankheiten schauen. Stell dir vor, du schaust dir diese Bilder täglich an.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Du musst wahrscheinlich jeden Tag aufgehört werden. Also, zumindest ich würde. Ich weiß, ich würde.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und dann, nachdem du das mit ihnen durchgehst, wirst du mit einem Kanzler sitzen, der vielleicht jemand wie Joe Pistone oder vielleicht sogar ich sein wird, oder ein verabschiedeter Unterkopf, um ĂĽber die anderen Aspekte zu sprechen. In anderen Worten, der alte Adage, du kannst kein Bullshit ein Bullshitter, oder du kannst kein UC ein UC. Ich habe einige Run-Ins durch die Jahre gehabt.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
The FBI, for as many faults as it has these days, the undercover program, at least the whole time I was around, was phenomenal. Some people say it's the toughest certification school the FBI puts on. I'll put it number two. Number one would be Das HRT-Selection-Prozess, das ist unser Schwad auf Steroids.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I may have disagreed sometimes, but that's just the management change. And just like anything else, but I will tell you that Safeguard is needed. When I go out and I teach undercover operations and techniques to state and locals or whatever feds, I'm like, if you don't have it, you need something. I know we hate oversight. Nobody thinks they need it, but I'm telling you, you do.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And it's not always going to be great. And you might have somebody that doesn't like you and and you get put on time out and you disagree and you fight and argue. But at the end of the day, it's meant for a good reason. And we also have a position in teams like a contact agent. So in other words, if you are the undercover Jordan and I'm assigned as your contact agent.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
That means that I am unbiased to your case. I am not connected to your case in any way. If your case fails or succeeds, it's not going to help or hurt me in any way. Only reason for being assigned to you is for your mental well-being. And that may mean that, and we picked that up from overseas, and the CIA and stuff like that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
If you are undercover, then I've been full-time listed as full-time twice. And the only person I saw outside of other undercovers was a contact agent. I lost all contact pretty much with the FBI, except for maybe a briefing before an op. I'm not really bonding with anybody, you know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So that guy, at that case particular, that guy coming over once, twice a week, even if it was just to listen to me bitch, Or to tell me the gossip that's going on. It's really, really good. And you need that oversight. To keep you connected. Because there's so many horror stories and undercovers. It sucks that the same mistakes are being made today that were being made in the 80s.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You got a small department. You got somebody that's running the undercover. But that person is also the case agent who is going to get promoted if the case succeeds. I'm not saying people are going to do the wrong thing. It's just a bad foundation.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich bin ein Powerlifter, ein Fußballspieler. Aber als ich älter wurde, dachte ich mir, ich werde nur den Kaffee nehmen. Aber sprechen wir über den Outlaw Case. Du trinkst. Du kannst nicht auf eine Rekorde schlagen. Sie füttern dir Alkohol, weil sie dich lieben. Aber sie gehen in ihre Room und machen eine Line von Coke. Oder sie machen einen Bump of Meth. Was macht das? Das schlägt dich sofort auf.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und sie können immer trinken. Also hier bin ich um vier Uhr morgens und frage den Bartender oder frage ihn und sage, hey, hast du einen Kaffee? Ja, ich weiß. Kaffee, Beeren, irgendwas, Gras, hast du irgendwas? Ich werde sie knacken und sie schnappen. Oder ich werde sie schnappen und sie essen. Ja, ich werde das Ganze aufmerksam machen, wenn ich kann, um zu versuchen, wach zu bleiben.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Also ja, du musst dich kĂĽmmern. Aber wiederum, in unserem Unterkopf-Zertifikationsprozess bei der FBI, ist es groĂź an Schlafdeprivation, weil die Schwierigkeiten kommen. Und wenn du trinkst, und du trinkst, wenn du unter Druck bist, versuch es in der Trainingsumgebung.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Aber wir haben viele ehemalige Navy Seals, ehemalige Green Berets, ehemalige Porsche Recon, die in die BĂĽro kommen und sie gehen zum HRT. Und das ist ein Zwei-Weck-Selection-Prozess auch. Auch groĂź auf Schlaf-Deprivation, aber es ist sehr physisch.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Warte nicht, dass du müde bist und einen Trinkstück hast und total deine Scheiße verlierst und alles über die Rekorde schlägst, was in einem Trial gespielt werden könnte und die Angst in Jerrys Meinung stellt. Schau, wie du bist. Schau, wo du bist. Nein, ich war früher so verdammt ähnelt, wie sogar das Alakazam. Ich würde zurückkommen und ich würde jeden Moment hören.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
a lot of heavy drugs and they might not drink so you don't need to worry about that but yeah
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
It can be multiple facets, but it's really a team decision. In the case of the Outlaws, what happened was I crashed physically and mentally. I'd been going at a pace for three years. And I believe your threshold changes every day. I don't think there's always somebody tougher and badder. It's not a chest-beating thing. But I had been at a pace for three years. And I wasn't just an undercover.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I was a case agent. I was a SWAT operator. I led all the tactical and firearms training in McAllen and Brownsville. Whatever. I ran my own cases, trained people. And I ended up doing that later in my career too, because it turns out that I love having a full plate and I'm a workaholic by nature.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But when I moved and after crashing, I set up Tripwires and Accountability Buddies, because I had a hard time saying no. And if I took ownership of something, I didn't want to do it half-assed. But in the case of the Outlaws, We can fast forward, I'm down in Daytona on a world run with the Outlaws. I end up having a panic attack. By that time I was a zombie.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Aus meinem Wissen, von dem, was ich zu vielen Jungs und Mädchen gesprochen habe, die involviert oder auf dem HRT waren, ist es selten, dass man es zum ersten Mal macht. Du willst wirklich durch die zwei Wochen ohne verletzt werden. Du siehst den Unterkopf-Zertifizierungsprozess.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I woke up after drinking at 5, 6 in the morning. You could hear and feel the eggs and whiskey swishing in your belly. I tried to do basically a body workout in the hotel room. Mountain climbers, burpees, push-ups, sit-ups, body squats, whatever. Pukalicious with all the whiskey going. Yeah, but prior to starting that workout, I hit the inhaler. I was on antihistamines and decongestants.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I drank two cups of the strongest coffee I can make. And I took three hydroxy cuts. So it's basically a cocktail for anxiety. But that's where I was at. And I just took the warrior mentality and I applied it to everything. What happened down there is I end up being invited into the clubhouse by the southeast regional president, who I'd met through the undercover, who took a login to me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
He brings me back to the tenant area, which to my understanding only past members could be. And they talked in shitty code about basically that murder up in Connecticut. So when the Florida team heard that, they were like, holy shit, that is, you're in with this guy. What do you say? And they asked the Boston team, where are you guys at? And they said, we've pretty much done all we need to do.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And they said, how about you don't take down your part? And then, Scott, you move to Florida and patch under Hillbilly. And I said, yes. But I didn't realize my body had already shut down. So I crash. Safeguard comes in. They put me on timeout. They say I can finish the case by phone. And then I just I come up with the story on why I can't come back for a bit.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Me and my wife were getting divorced. I got to move her and my children to El Paso. But once that's done, I'm coming up north. And we were going to be creating our own motorcycle club that was already approved by the national president to be the number one support club in the Northeast.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I lined up a couple of more deals for the case team and had my truck drivers go up there to pick up some stolen goods and brokered those deals. And then they took it down. But I can end it with this. You talk about friendships. When they took down the case, I was in Nevada. Hey, man. Ich habe eine gebrochene Stimme, weil er gerade aufgehört hat.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich weiĂź nicht, was es jetzt ist, weil gerade bevor ich verabschiedet bin, waren es nicht so viele Unterkopf-Schulen, die aufgenommen wurden. Wir sind ein bisschen lange gegangen. Manche Menschen verurteilen Covid, aber wir haben sie nicht aufgenommen. Und das ist auf dem Headquarters-Level, also kann ich nicht antworten. Why? No days off, huge on sleep deprivation, a lot of role playing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Er hat gesagt, hey, ich möchte, dass du weißt, dass jemand mich gerade angerufen hat. Deine Truck-Fahrer und Tim Sylvia, sie haben sich geschlossen. Ich weiß nicht, was los ist, aber ich wollte, dass du weißt. Ich wusste, was los ist. Wir haben eine Veränderung gesetzt. Und Tim Sylvia dachte, er würde zehn Kilo bekommen. Und sie haben alle verabschiedet.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Und das wĂĽrde den Anfang des Aufstiegs signifizieren. Und ich sagte, hey, Mann, manchmal machen meine Trucker ihre eigene Sache. Sie arbeiten nicht immer fĂĽr mich. Ich sagte, ich weiĂź nicht ĂĽber diesen Trip. Wow.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Es ist schwer. Du nimmst etwas, das du gelernt hast, und du nimmst es in den nächsten Fall. Oder du rennst in eine Situation, die ähnlich ist, und du weißt, wie du es besser handeln kannst.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You're going to be the primary undercoverer probably twice a night. So you may brutally die and fail in one scenario. You got to shake it off, get back on the horse and get ready for the next one.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
It really brings out the weaknesses. My minor was psychology. Two more classes, I could have had a double major, but seeing people like literally nut out and it's just from the sleep deprivation. And some people are so regimented, which I mean, I am daily, but Untertitelung. BR 2018 Miss your workouts and that not have an adverse impact on your psyche.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I'm probably right there with you. One of the last schools I did, I was a counselor. So there's 20 slots in the school. So there's a counselor for each group of five. I got certified in 2002 with the FBI. I've been role-playing or teaching at the UC school from 2003 till I retired. And I've never known or seen a 100% graduation rate. And it's not hazing. I mean, it doesn't mean you're a bad agent.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You could be the best case agent in the world. You're just not cut out for undercover. You've made some mistakes that you couldn't recover from at that time at that school. Can you retake it if you fail? Rarely, but I have seen somebody fail. I think it was a two-year wait limit and then two years later they came back and passed it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Yeah, knock on wood, we've never lost a certified agent. Oh, really? Not that you want to lose anybody. Yeah, but there was one guy on the martyr wall and he did get ambushed in a covert drug buy. But to my understanding and what they told me is he never went to the UC school, which I'm not saying that would have saved him or not. He just, it was a bad day.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Somebody tried to rip him and somebody saw a gun and he pulled his gun and it didn't work out.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ja, du wirst wachsen und du siehst zurĂĽck und du denkst dir, I was basically doing undercover work then, even though I was, you know, true name and everything. But in my high school, I had the shocker, long hair. I was a rebel, rule breaker, wearing sleeveless shirts and I don't know, whatever, gloves. Who knows, man, it was the late 80s.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
You have brass knuckles, a switchblade knife, everything in your jean jacket or whatever. But there was a vice principal, Lloyd Walker, Mr. Walker, man. I don't know what it was, but the first two years, man, I was like, wow, that dude does not like me. And I just kept getting in trouble.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And we ended up becoming tighter after an incident at a talent show, because I'm a musician, guitar player, singer, play some other instruments as well. But anyway, the band I was in, we did a talent show and I might have Grabbed my crotch one too many times on stage because I didn't have a lot of experience in front of a not beer drinking crowd.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
So after that we started laughing at each other, got to know each other and I guess he saw my skill set because, you know, in the late 80s, my high school, there was a smoking area. So if you smoked cigarettes, there was a place you went to smoke. You had the group of potheads. You had jocks. You had musicians. You had smart kids. I could go hang out with any of those.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Not that I'm pretending to be them. A lot of things I was. That's why I knew them. But I loved connecting with people and I could connect with people. And it turns out that at some point in high school, I don't know if it was my junior or senior year, but Somebody did malicious damage to Mr. Walker's house and his car.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I remember they keyed it, spray painted the house, spray painted his car, rolled the trees. Rolling the trees you can clean up. Keying and all the other stuff. And there were some racial slurs. And he called me in his office and I thought I was in trouble. And he called me in and I'm like, hey, you know, what's up? And he told me, he goes, did you hear about what happened? I said, yeah, I did.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And I knew where he lived and I actually drove by and saw it. And I guess he kept an eye on me and saw that I could fit in or connect with people in all these areas. And he asked me if I'd be willing to try to find out who did that to his place. And I said, yeah. And I look back and I'm like, I guess that's really an undercover. Again, I'm a teenager. I don't have the skill set I do today, but
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich habe gesagt, Mr. Walker, das.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Ich glaube, die Leute sind mein Geschäft. Selbst als Investigator. Ja, genau. I've got friends and peers and mentors and people I've mentored that are polar opposites of my personality and they're unbelievable undercovers.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
Or you just get a break. Somebody says, I'll take the eye. Yeah, if you got the eye, it's kind of tough to go do anything, which is you're the one watching. If we set up choke points where surveillance can be great, it can also be very frustrating. There's always the ones where you're like, all right, target's rolling. Okay, they're headed your way. You got them.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
And I'm like, you're not where you're supposed to be. Everybody had their point. I moved a couple of hours ago. You're like, uh, Yeah, I had to go get some food and you didn't tell anyone? Yeah. Surveillance, again, is traditional law enforcement. Good work.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
I've laid in woods for months watching a place just to get the time patterns of, depending on what it is, let's just say it's an illegal gambling organization. And when I was a vice narcotics investigator in South Carolina back then, gambling was illegal. I don't know if it is now or not, but other than like Indian country or something on a reserve or federal land.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1120: Scott Payne | How the FBI Turned Me Into the Perfect Outlaw
But yeah, it's a good way to gather evidence.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like podcast. Have you ever wondered how it feels to watch your house burn down, be attacked by an alligator, or learn that your spouse hired someone to kill you? What Was That Like is the podcast for you, if you're that person. Not the person who got hired to be killed, but the person who wondered, more thankfully.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I know people are thinking, but hey, there's emergency plans. The government has a plan. If you live in a disaster area, you know that's probably not true. But you mentioned in the book that emergency plans are designed to benefit emergency officials and not the average Joe. That's terrifying.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, but I couldn't tell you the difference.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Like it's happening. Yes.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional legendary Hollywood actor. astronaut, hacker, Russian spy, or cold case homicide investigator.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I grew up in Michigan and we had tornadoes pretty regularly. I grew up there. I was there for decades. I went to college and law school there. I don't know the difference between Tornado Warning and Tornado Watch. And I've seen dozens of them, at least, over my life. So if you move somewhere and this is the first or second time you're seeing that, you're just not going to get it. You're right.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
It's a W word for both. I'm like, if it's a watch, are they watching for where it is? No, they're wondering if there is one. Okay, fine. A warning. Are they warning us that there might be one or are they warning us that there is one? I don't know the answer to that. They use the same logo in the news. It's just the tornado. They use the same color. It's branded to the TV station.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
It's not like one's yellow and one's red. It's just totally ridiculously confusing, especially for younger people or non-native speakers or literally somebody who has a high level of education and just can't remember the difference between warning and watch. I wonder if my parents who spent 80 years there, I wonder if even they know the difference, honestly.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
You give the London train bombing example as how plans are designed to benefit officials and not the average Joe. Tell me about this, because it's frustrating to hear examples like this, right? And you just think, oh, man, nobody thought of a better way to handle this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And if you're new to the show or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode Starter Packs is a great place to begin. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I kind of get behind the logic of I'm going to keep the first aid kit in the supervisor's office because if anybody needs it, they're just going to come to me and I will help them.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
But what if a disaster happens on the train? Oh, crap. We haven't thought of that. We didn't think about that. That's so frustrating. It's terrifying that there's a 28 percent chance of another pandemic before 2030.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, author Amanda Ripley. She interviewed survivors after disasters for years and wrote her book about what they've learned and how they survived.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Of course, tons of people will deny it's even happening and relying on people to do the right thing to keep safe. It seems like a fool's errand at this point. There's going to be so many people who decide to do the opposite of what people say to do just because they want to just flout it. I probably shouldn't entirely blame Twitter, but this is where it's so prevalent.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
There's almost this weird contrarian movement where it's like, Oh, I'm going to do this thing. Oh, wait, no, never mind. The authority told me to do it. So I'm deliberately now not going to do it just so that I'm the guy who's not following the rules because I'm tough and independent or whatever. And I see this with people that I know. This is not just like an online phenomenon.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I see this with people that I know who will call me and be like, oh, my gosh, this COVID thing is so scary. What do we do? And I'm like, hey, relax. Maybe stay home for a while, see how it spreads. You don't have to go hoard toilet paper. In fact, it's 2024, get a freaking bidet already. And calm down. And then these were the same people that like a week or month later were like, COVID is fake.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I'm like, bro, I remember the call clearly. This was not your opinion back then. It's almost like the machine shut down and they were like, the thing that makes me feel more safe about this is just denying that it's happening at all. That to me was shocking.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yes, I know exactly what you mean.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, that's interesting. If I'm honest with myself, I think I did the same thing. In the beginning, oh my God, this is really bad. Let's err on the side of caution. My wife really went off the deep end with being careful and we had little kids.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Today, we'll uncover the types of people who survive in disasters, what they think and do differently, and how this helps them survive. We'll also discover common mistakes and weird behaviors, actually quite bizarre behaviors that people exhibit in disasters, often costing them and those around them their lives. In this episode, I rarely say this, but this might actually save your life.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And then after a while, I was like, okay, at some point, I've got to start living life and listen to the fact that life is still moving and these people aren't all dying. But then I kind of got like, eh, it's over. But it wasn't, right? I was just like, I have a binary switch. It's either like, we are on lockdown, man.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Leave the DoorDash on, and I'm gonna spray the whole thing with Lysol before I bring it in. Or it's, screw it, I'm just gonna go out to a crowded restaurant because I'm an idiot. We're done with this. Yeah, and I really had to come back down and be like, oh, wait, no, I just got COVID because I'm stupid. And I could have avoided that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And yeah, I know that's going to happen next time because I was aware of this process for the most part, and I still screwed it up. So it's not like people are just idiots. That's only part of it.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Real people come on every episode to explain the unbelievable situations they've been through. I think it's a funny concept for a show. I kind of wish I'd thought of it because I always get crazy stories from people. Not everything turns into a Jordan Harbinger episode. But What Was That Like?
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
So we underreact when bad things happen because of looking for patterns and data which might be social in nature. My favorite, by the way, is when people remove their mask to sneeze and then put it back on. That's like that's chef's kiss delusional nonsense right there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah. And I remember being on a flight and the flight attendant was like, you don't have to take your mask off to talk to me. I'm not reading your lips. I can hear you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I know the bystander effect is a thing when it comes to, say, like a car accident. Do we have that happening at a macro level with disasters as well?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
or those of others around you. And I hope you enjoy it. Here we go with Amanda Ripley. It's a topic that I thought, oh, well, we don't get that many disasters here in the United States.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I probably should have defined bystander effect, but this is where someone falls on their face in a pool of blood in front of you. And if other people aren't doing anything and you're looking at them and you're like, oh, they're just going to keep walking. I'll just step over this person and keep walking.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
But of course, as soon as one person breaks that sort of attention bubble and says, oh my God, you call 911 and you come over here and help me turn this guy over so he can breathe. Don't move his neck and all this stuff. Then things start to happen. But it's quite shocking. There's numerous YouTube videos where you see an actor fall over or like laying down and they're like, help me.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And people are just walking over them and someone stops and looks. But since no one else is doing anything because the other people are actors, too, they just scurry away or they stand there staring and they're like, man, someone should really do something about this and that they're the only person
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
who's not an actor in this scenario, it's almost like they just don't want to embarrass themselves by being the person who breaks the bubble of what everyone else is doing. I don't know a better way to explain this.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I did not know that because you don't hear about those very often. It's usually everyone's dead because it blew up in midair.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And of course, now the week that we're recording this, the wake of what was the last hurricane we hit that has like historic levels of damage that's going to take years to rebuild that just happened in... Helene, I believe.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I know if I'm going to be incinerated alive, I'd want to be clutching one of the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at 6minutenetworking.com. The course is all about improving your relationship skills and developing relationships personally and professionally with other people in non-cringy, very down-to-earth ways.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
The course, once again, for free over at sixminutenetworking.com. Now, back to Amanda Ripley. I remember a long time ago, and I was in law school, my friend's dad came to visit them, they were going to a concert, and he stands out on the porch, and I'm studying on the porch with my girlfriend, and I go, Oh, hey, how you doing? You ready to go? He goes, Ann Arbor in the summer is so nice.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah. And another one on the way, which hopefully doesn't hit the same spot, although I don't even know. Is that better or worse? People post these photos and you go, oh, yeah, down tree. But then you realize it's like hundreds of square miles of that. And it's just mind blowing.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And he stretches his arms out and he's standing at the top of the stairs in the walkways in front of him. And I hear a groan, like a guttural groan. And he falls completely passed out face first onto the concrete. And his son and their friends are all behind him. And they just stand there and like, oh, my God. They just keep saying, oh, my God. And I was like, OK.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
They probably just rolled a joint or something like that. Nobody's doing anything. So I told my girlfriend to call 911 and she goes, okay, but she couldn't find her phone. So I told another guy, you call 911. And he goes, what's the number? Oh, wow. And I was like, 911. And then the other kid was like trying to push him over, roll his dad over.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I'm like, don't touch him because he just smashed his face into the concrete from an elevated position. The last thing you want to do is move. And of course, as soon as the ambulance got there, they're like, did you move him? And we're like, no, nobody touched him. They're like, oh, thank God.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
They said that's what usually people do wrong is they're like rolling them around and they're like, are you OK? And they're slapping him in the face with a broken neck. And that was a shocking level of panic from people who barely saw what happened.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
His dad, yeah. So he broke his jaw, which is why blood was coming out of his ears, which was really scary. And he had to have it wired shut. And what had happened was he went upstairs. He was drinking. He was probably like 60 years old, this man. And maybe they smoked something. I don't know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And then he came downstairs, stood up, stretched and maybe pushed the air down in his diaphragm just a little bit or took too deep of a breath. And he just passed out. And he fell forwards, which is really unfortunate. So it wasn't like a heart attack or something? No, no. a, I don't know if head rush is quite the right word.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
If you force air in your abdomen too much, like when you're meditating, you just pass out. It was probably just something like that, almost like a headlock.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
One, I've seen some ish before, like worse than that, for sure. I'm not entirely sure, though. I didn't panic in those situations either, probably because I actually knew what to do. Also, this is going to sound awful. It didn't hurt that I just met the guy. My emotional response was like, oh, my God, that man just passed out. Not oh, my God, my dad fell.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Am I mistaken that disasters don't usually happen in America or is it just that our disasters don't seem as bad as one in Haiti, for example?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
His son was like, oh, my God, dad. I understood that reaction. For me, I was like, oh, he fell. Not, oh my God, he's dead. I just thought like he fell. But the blood coming out of the ears that I saw later, that one got my heart rate up. That was like, oh my God, he's dead. Why is blood coming out of your ears?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And the reason that happened was I guess his jawbone had pushed through that tube that connects to your ear and then blood came out of it. That was just obviously terrifying.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Well, aside from the guy asking me what the number was for 911, they did it. And I remember afterwards, they were like, wow, that was really cool, man. Thank God you did that. And my girlfriend was like, wow, she was very impressed. I was very happy about that. That was quite interesting because it doesn't seem that complicated.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Maybe I am wired a certain way or I was in Boy Scouts for a decade or something. I think they trained us to do all that stuff early in the game. And that might be why. I don't know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yes. Okay. So I have something definitely to say about denial. Again, I've told this story a zillion times, so I will not belabor the point. But when I got kidnapped by a taxi in Mexico 20 plus years ago, and I remember looking out the window and thinking, I'm not getting kidnapped because I've never been kidnapped before. So this isn't what getting kidnapped probably feels.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And I was just like, that's the dumbest line of thought that anyone has ever had. Of course, I've never been kidnapped before. It doesn't mean... that I'm not getting kidnapped now. And this whole dialogue was going on in my head. And this is pre-smartphone. So I wasn't like, let me look at Instagram and distract myself from this difficult conversation.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I was like, nope, I'm just stuck in this car looking out the window, getting further away from my destination. But the denial was really strong. And only when I finally realized that I was in denial actively and my brain was fighting me every step of the way, only then was I like, this is a very dangerous situation and I should do something about it. But I don't know how long that was.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That could have been like 15 minutes or longer. I really don't know. It was a long time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That is quite insightful. When I was in the denial phase of this taxi kidnap thing, which for people who don't know, I've told it on the show, it's called Kidnap Me Once, the episode. It's quite old. But one of the things that happened was I was making excuses for the driver. I was like, oh, maybe there's traffic or maybe there's an accident. And then I said, hey, why are we taking this way?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And he said, I need to ask for directions. And I was like, yeah, we're going to the center of town where the presidential palace is. That answer is like the wrong answer. If he had said there's traffic because I just came up this way, I would have been like, OK. But he said something that just I knew in my heart of hearts was not true.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
But if he hadn't said that, if I'm honest with myself, I probably would have just believed everything. his excuse because I was so uncomfortable with what was going on.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
No. And I couldn't open the door.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Right. You just look up or unless you're using Uber or something like that, you just look up and you'd be like, this doesn't look right. My brother-in-law took a cab in Istanbul, and he wanted to go somewhere to a certain neighborhood. And he likes to get to know the area where he is, so he was following along on Google Maps. And he's like, we missed the turn. And the driver's like, no, we didn't.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And he's like, you missed the turn again. And he's like, no, I'm going this other way. And my brother-in-law was like, no, there's three other opportunities for you to have made this left. And now it's routing us in a totally different way across a bridge. And he was like, it's fine. And then the guy stopped at a light. And my brother-in-law just jumped out of a moving cab.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And the guy spent a half an hour looking for him. And my brother-in-law hid in the dark.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
He said if he wasn't looking at Google Maps trying to figure out where the neighborhoods were and how everything was laid out, he would have just sat there and he was in the hood. When he finally found a car to take him back, the driver was like, why are you here?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
This is not a place where you should be because he was already in like seedy, dodgy, whatever area of Istanbul where tourists just don't go, especially at 9 p.m.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
This is crazy. Shitting yourself. I get that when you're going blind, though. That sounds like something that is not a good thing. You're evolved to what? Evacuate your bowels because you're like your body's ready for fight or flight. Going blind is the opposite of what probably anybody needs to do when they're like, we got to get out of here. Okay, I'm going to make it so you can't see anymore.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Thanks, brain. Thanks a lot.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Gosh, the airplane thing, what is it called? It's called gathering or something. People try to like get their carry on and they put their shoes back on even though they're wearing high heels or something like that. This is why you get the safety warning when you sit in the exit row.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
They're like, I want to make sure that you are focused enough to pay attention for five seconds because otherwise you're just going to be in the way. You mentioned the World Trade Center. I heard people were trying to take their office stuff with them. I sort of get it like, oh, I want the picture of my kids, but I guess people were taking anything they could grab. It just felt natural.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
It's like this weird quirk.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
David Eagleman is an neuroscientist. He's been on the show. And one of the things I discussed with him in episode, I think 929, he's been on like five times, but I think it's 929, why the brain slows things down. when you're in an emergency and like what things it thinks are important. And it's not always the things that are actually important, which I thought was kind of funny.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
It's like, I remember the smell of the car seat as the crash happened. It's like, that's not exactly relevant information, but okay.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Just imagine how smart he would have been if he hadn't had that fall. The man's a genius.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
is hosted by my friend Scott Johnson, who's naturally curious and gives his guests the opportunity to share how they've really felt during some of their most surreal experiences. What they did in the morning before an earthquake, what song was playing as a gunman entered, was their stomach growling as they hid? Guests share everything they remember about their crazy, crazy experiences.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Exactly. Yeah. The other thing I've heard about happening with these folks is tunnel vision. I don't really actually know what that is. I do remember driving home 20 years ago when I first got a cell phone and getting home and going, how did I get here? And that was the moment I was like, I can never talk on this phone while driving again. That was terrifying. I was like, did I drive home? I did.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And I wasn't drunk. It was literally just the cell phone. I had to think about, yeah, I drove home. Wait, was that today? Yeah, that was today. I was on the phone with Tim. Like I was completely absent from that, mentally absent.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Oh, totally makes sense.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I mean, I do see a lot. I'm on the highway and I see a ton of people. Whenever anyone's going like under the speed limit by 10 miles an hour, drifting in a lane, I'm like, I know that dude is freaking looking at L.L. Bean on his phone while driving 60 miles an hour down the highway. And sure enough, there he is. And I'm just like, that better be really important, man. But I bet it's not.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
We must have evolved that for a reason, but I can't for the life of me think about why you would want to see less things, fewer things in a disaster.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, I was in a situation where somebody got shot near me, and I remember very few details, but the details I remember are mostly irrelevant. Like I remember hiding behind the engine block of a car, I remember my boss shooting the guy, because it was a security situation, the guy was shooting at my colleagues, and then I remember washing my uniform, because it was covered in pieces of someone,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
But I don't remember like driving home. I don't remember the precursor to the disaster. I don't remember the aftermath. I was definitely at the place for hours. The police came. I don't remember any of that stuff. It's just it was like zip. It's gone. It's all in one little kind of like one minute snippet in my brain.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
But I remember how long it took me to wash my uniform and I pre-soaked it and then I had to rinse it off and then I had to throw this stuff away. And I remember all that really clearly.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That's right. The gunshot at close range was before the guy fell off the porch. You're right. That one was like a two out of 10 compared to the other stuff that I had been through by that time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah. You have an interesting counterintuitive point about how denial can actually help us in disasters.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, I noticed that. So, by the way, I think we should probably define the disasters we're talking about. So it's not like a train chemical spill. We're talking about hurricanes, wildfires, pandemics, earthquakes.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, when I was at LAX a few years ago, many people thought at the time there was a shooting. But to me, I immediately said that was a suitcase or a bag hitting the ground. But the TSA guys all ran away. They said shooter, shooter, shooter. But I didn't hear any follow-up shots. I didn't hear anybody yelling other than the people screaming to leave.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I didn't hear any aggressive yelling, but mostly I didn't hear anything that sounded like a gunshot, and I only heard one. So I definitely left, but I helped other people get down the jetway first, and then it turned out to be, what? Oh, some idiot dropped his suitcase at the TSA thing, and one TSA guy panicked and scared everyone else out of the terminal.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That was interesting, because I remember thinking to myself, What am I doing? I should get out of here. But then I was like, it's definitely not that. I just happened to be right that it wasn't a shooter. But if it was, I would be like, screwed. I was behind a ton of people who were clogging up the jetway.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Why do people's risk profiles often fail? I should say, why do our risk profiles often fail us? Because mine failed there too. I guess it didn't because I was right, but I wasn't right because I made some expert calculation based on data. I was right. My gut instinct was to help other people and then realize this is a bunch of crap.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
The one thing I will say is everyone ran down the terminal towards the end and they all got bunched up and I just ran to the left to get out towards the gate because there was no one there. That sort of herd mindset, I feel like that must kill so many people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
My wife drives, so I know that's the way I'm going. That's how I'm going to leave this world. My wife driving. She's a great driver. Let's just say I'm a little more risk averse than she is.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
She's a better driver than me, but it might also kill me one day.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I think I spent the next decade after 9-11 telling people that driving was more dangerous than flying because I had friends who were like, yeah, we're gonna drive to Miami. I'm like, that's a 22-hour drive. Why don't you fly? It's $79 on Spirit or whatever. You know, and no... My girlfriend doesn't want to fly or I don't want to fly. It's dangerous. I'm just thinking it is so much safer per mile.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And I had to look up all the data. And I remember trying to find this. This is like free smartphone, right? So it was harder to find stuff like that. There wasn't an AI telling you this was safer, but it just took me forever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
It didn't matter. I spent like 10 years doing it. And the number of people who listened to me, it was like a single digit number of people changed their mind.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah. You're always bunched up next to somebody and you're like, okay, if I can smell the guy behind me's farts, I'm going to be able to get COVID from him too.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Exactly. They said something about air ventilation, but we all know that's not working.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah. Beliefs really seem to drive us here. For Hurricane Katrina, the narrative, and I'm not saying this is a false narrative, I just mean the narrative was that a lot of people were too poor to evacuate. And I know that's true, but maybe not the whole story. And the beliefs that people had were maybe more important than the economics. Can you tell me what you mean by that?
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
We kind of like to think the more life experience we have, the better we're going to be in a disaster, but it's not necessarily the case.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I know there's a story of a child essentially saving lots of people during a tsunami in Thailand because the kid was like, I think I saw on TV that when that happens, you're supposed to get to high ground and not go down and collect shells off the beach or whatever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That's pretty impressive. Well, I guess it's a kid saying something, right? So zero authority.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I know if I'm going to be gathering my crap on a burning aircraft, thereby hindering the evacuation of myself and others, causing their untimely deaths, I would want to be gathering something from one of the amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment...
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
and support those who make this show possible. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Our AI chat bot can also surface promo codes. That's over on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash AI. You can also email us. I'm happy to surface codes for you.
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Amanda Ripley. You mentioned in the book, and I thought this was interesting, certain disasters are more dangerous for men than for women. What is that all about? And which ones?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah. So wildfires seemingly on the rise, climate change, any sort of climate change related stuff's definitely on the rise. Safe to say we'll see more disasters soon. And I always hate to be negative, but we literally just said there's a massive hurricane that was historic in nature. And now there's another one. And it's been like a week or two since the last one, which is...
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1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I really feel like I have absolutely no idea what could be more dangerous for men than women. The only thing I can think of is like a shipwreck. And it's like women and children first. And guys are just like, yeah, we're never getting off this damn thing. We're done.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Interesting. So the answer to the question, which disasters are more dangerous for men than for women, is all of them, especially if you have a big ego and you don't want to look like a wimp. Got it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I think we're hitting on the reason I didn't run away from this quote unquote gunshots at LAX. I'm like, ah, I don't want to look like a wimp if this isn't a gunshot. I don't think that's why, because everybody ran. But there was probably a little bit of that. Unless I'm really sure this is a gunshot, I'm not going to run.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I want to be that guy. Along with all the other thousands of that guys who are now in the tarmac while I'm in the terminal with a potential terrorist. Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I know that I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I noted that you said obese people have way lower chances of survival. And I'm going to ask why, even though this is such a sensitive subject for people, because I think it's important. Anybody who's looking for a good reason to lose the last few pounds might listen to this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
unfortunately proves your point really well here. But on the other hand, we know there's a hurricane coming because I don't know about 100 years ago or 50 years ago, however long it took. They just found out when they were like, wow, this is a heck of a storm. If it gets any... Oh, it's getting worse. Never mind. We're all going to die. I mean, are we getting better at this?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Certainly one of the reasons I wanted to get in shape was to live longer. I just wasn't thinking because of a disaster. I was more thinking like blood pressure and triglycerides.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Do they make it harder for other people to survive as well? Because it sounds like if someone has to be carried out, OK, but I don't know if you're obese, you move more slowly. I feel bad asking this, even though it's just data. But I think on this show, I could say something that is actually horrifically racist and I would get thoughtful emails from people telling me why I'm wrong.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Not that I've ever done that, of course. But if I say something on the show that indicates something negative about overweight people, even if it's literally science or backed up by data, my inbox is a total shite show for the rest of the month. with this, but yeah. So I'm asking you to take the flag for me by bringing it up and covering this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, it's an incredibly difficult problem. I never even thought about the shoes. You got to take those things off and smack people with them if they're moving too slowly. Move it, pal.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah. You would think like the person who had their yoga shoes or their gym shoes in their office on 9-11 and just went, oh, I'm going down the stairs. Let me change into these. Would have literally had a survival advantage because of that. Yeah, it's wild. You mentioned this earlier, like panic episodes and crowds. Tell me about the Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
You always hear about people there dying in these massive crowd crushes of thousands of people. And I might be out of line here, but I know there's some chatter like, oh, it's OK, you go straight to paradise if you die on a pilgrimage to Mecca. That maybe doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about people dying there avoidably.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
There's a fluid dynamics. Because I always wonder, how does this work? I'm pushing a little on someone who's pushing a little on someone else, but then suddenly it adds up to hundreds or thousands of pounds of pressure on some old lady between all of us.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Right, because you can't feel it unless it's happening to you, right? Because I'm imagining just gently being pushed against someone else. But when there's hundreds of people doing that, and then it goes into some narrow tunnel, those people are getting hundreds or thousands of pounds of pressure on their chest cavity.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, of course it is, right? How are you going to blame 100,000 people instead of the person whose job it is to make sure that 100,000 people have a place to go and aren't going to get bottlenecked? That's government deflection at its finest. I will say some of the heroism stories in the book are really inspiring. I don't
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Think I'm cut out to jump into freezing water or run into a burning building anytime soon, especially now I have little kids, maybe pre-kids, pre-wife, I would have. I'm not sure. I don't know if you've studied that at all. But before kids, I stopped to help with a car crash with a baby and a woman trapped inside. And there was a burning car another time on the highway.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Pre-kids, though, once I have kids now, I'm like, OK, no more figurative or literal bungee jumping of any kind at all.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That's awesome. That's so funny. That's a reason. I don't have kids, but you know who loves a hero? The ladies.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
So it's like a values thing maybe from their parents?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I know something that makes for at least the special forces guys, not necessarily like the hero that you just mentioned, but there's something called neuropeptide Y that I've never heard of that I'm super interested in because I want to inject it immediately. But what is this and how does it work?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That's interesting. Supplement dealers and sketchy pharma companies are just clamoring to bottle this. And maybe not even sketchy, because I would imagine the military would just want to inject this into everybody and then see who makes it through training.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I like that. But your warning is not going to stop biohackers or the military from trying to inject people with brain chemicals to make them into super soldiers. And we both know that. No.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Every 20-something guy is Googling where they can buy this online right now.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Oh, please.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
So if you want to hear some disturbing slash inspiring firsthand stories about the thoughts that go through your head while surviving a kidnapping or winning the price is right, What Was That Like? is the podcast you've been looking for. Every story is thoroughly researched and fact-checked so you know even the most unreal stories are actually someone's reality. Listen to What Was That Like?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Because if you think about it, if you live in Miami Beach, they say you have 24 hours to get out of here. It's like, well, I'm going to spend four hours debating with my family. Four hours trying to convince my parents that they also need to evacuate because they're 80, even though they don't want to and they ain't scared of no storm.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Oh, that's interesting. I took a kidnap evasion course, whatever. It's like an urban survival and evasion course. And they like bag your head and put you in a van handcuffed. And they were like, they said, when this happens, box breathing, because you're going to have this crazy panic reaction if anything similar ever happens to you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And you need to stay calm because you need to count things or listen for auditory signals about where you are or see how many right turns you made. If you can do something like that, like all these little things that you're not doing when you're panicking and I don't know, soiling yourself or whatever else that are going blind in the back of the car. So did you practice that?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I did, but you know, it sounds so easy, but when you are having any kind of anxiety in for four, hold for four, out for four is an eternity. And you're really like, you're really just gasping for air after one or two rounds. It's very difficult.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, my wife's going to be like, why do you always breathe weird when I drive now? because Amanda Ripley told me to. Thank you so much, by the way, for doing the show. I like to highlight when us humans rise to the occasion, not like magically meet our expectations or whatever, but meet our higher moral virtue, perhaps.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And frankly, being useful in a disaster is something we should all aspire to, in my opinion. Maybe I'm still an Eagle Scout at heart, but I really think that one of the best things you can do is at least don't be a burden to everyone around you. But ideally, you are the person who grabs the other person by the elbow and says, we're getting out of here.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And then I'm going to spend four hours packing, six more hours in traffic, and then I'm going to make it out of Florida by the skin of my teeth before that thing destroys everything behind me. And that's if I act relatively quickly.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That was the course I took where I went, this is really good. I'm not going to remember 90 percent of this, but I still think it's a good idea. And you're right. They're taught well. They're taught by people who know what they're doing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah. I want to say it was like a fire marshal or some fireman who taught the course or retired fireman. And he was really good and he knew a lot about a lot. But I remember also being like, wow, am I going to be useless in a disaster because this guy knows so much and I'm going to pick up maybe five percent.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, it's a bit much. But you know what? Even if you just remember anything, because I really think that most of us, like we talked about at the top of the show, are quite useless when it comes to a disaster. At best, we're useless. And at worst, we're actually making things worse for everybody around us, which is, you know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Amanda Ripley, thank you so much.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Join us as Adam Gamal, a Muslim Arab American and former Egyptian refugee, recounts his rise to become a key operative of one of the U.S. 's most secretive military units in this two-part podcast series. In part one, Adam delves into the high-stakes world of counterterrorism and covert operations, revealing the personal and ethical complexities of fighting terrorism from within the shadows.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Tune in to uncover his unique journey and critical insights only he can provide on episode 978 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. I found this fascinating. A lot of weird behaviors. The whole gathering thing, and that's just creepy, but I can also see why people just do what they were going to do when they got off the plane normally, but try to do it faster.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Still, though, the fact that people die doing that is really sort of screwed up and sad. Sometimes people panic even when it makes no sense. Trained divers and firefighters panic. They rip out their air source underwater or in a burning building. There's a lot of accounts of this. People with certain base levels of anxiety are actually more likely to do this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I don't know how they measure that, but it makes me realize I'm not cut out for diving and probably not for firefighting. Not everyone panics, of course. Some people just freeze and go catatonic. You see those videos on Reddit or whatever where somebody just freezes and is completely useless in any kind of high stress situation. Many animals also seem to have this mode. Humans especially do.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Again, we see that in those videos. Why do we evolve this, though? What a weird reaction. Well, predators are actually less likely to to eat sick prey. They want to avoid poisoning. Animals maybe have evolved to utilize this. And unfortunately, victims of sexual assault often have this reaction and then they blame themselves as a result.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
So, I don't know who needs to hear this, but if you froze during something like that, it is an evolved trait and you don't need to beat yourself up about it, although I'm sure my words are cold comfort for you. This might add another layer of forgiving yourself if that's the case.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
We think a lot of these things, these disasters, the panicking, the fight, flight, freeze, that won't happen to us, right? But this is the Lake Wobegon effect, where everybody thinks that they're above average. But it's important to remember, we don't rise to the level of our expectations. We default to the level of our training. And this is why a lot of people freeze.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
even though they're a black belt at some McDojo in a strip mall somewhere, or even actually trained in certain situations. If your training is not actual combat-ready type stuff like you would expect from people who need to do this for a living, you might freeze, and it's gonna be very disappointing when this happens, and you should be prepared for that psychologically.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Training, of course, helps the stress response, Even something called micro training, like knowing where emergency exits are in hotels and airplanes. When I go to hotels, I make sure I know where the stairs are. Are they left? Are they right? How far down are they? Airplanes, I usually count the row of seats in front of me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
If there's six rows and then I turn right and that's the door, because if that thing fills with smoke and you can't see and you can't breathe, you're going to want to do one, two, three, four, five, six, turn right and end up outside, not one, two, three, four, five. And then you end up in row C over some dude who's trying to pack his MacBook Pro and get his shoes on.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
The strongest thing you can do in any disaster is have a plan for an emergency and be determined to execute it. There's more in her book on this, but as a kid, my mom and I drew up a map to get out of the house in case of a fire, and I got some sort of rope ladder thing to get out of my window on the first floor.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
But that made me feel safer, and I knew that if anything happened, I would just jump up, open the window, and get out of the house if my door was blocked by fire. And I think I would have been able to do that, honestly. Or I would have frozen and cooked to death. Whatever. Never had to find out, thankfully. All things Amanda Ripley will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support this show. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, I'd love to see you there.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
The idea is to give you something specific and practical, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships in under two minutes a week. And if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a great companion to the show. jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Don't forget about Six Minute Networking as well over at sixminutenetworking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. And this show, well, it's created an association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is... to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who might need a little disaster planning, who's interested in this kind of training stuff, maybe they're a first responder.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I've heard you say that unless we make major changes, more people will die of distrust than disasters. Tell me what's going on there. That sort of seems to be the other side of the whole, I'm not leaving, it's my home and this storm's not going to be, they always tell me to leave and it's never a big deal. Last time we got robbed or whatever, right?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Maybe there's somebody who needs to listen to a first responder. Share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, that's scary. I've done shows on pandemics and things like that. And It's okay. How prepared are we for the next one? It's like, probably not that much better prepared than we were for COVID, except it could be way worse.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
And now nobody trusts anything because, well, they said masks were going to work and they didn't stop the transmission and they said to buy them and they said not to buy them and they said to buy them again. It's like,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Okay, so when the next one comes, it's going to be toilet paper hoarding, and half the people put on a mask and never take it off, whether you need it or not, and the other half of the people never put on a mask and never will, even if it's like, this is the only thing that's going to stop the spread.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
It's just people are already in their camps, regardless of whatever the science says for that particular pandemic at that particular moment. Anyway, we'll get there. I'm ahead of myself because I get a little spirited about this whole disinformation and mistrusting. You've also said when it comes to worst case scenarios, the truth is usually better than the nightmare. Tell me about that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
That sounds like maybe good news. I don't know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
So the people who are like stockpiling weapons and ammunition, okay, maybe not a terrible plan, but you also need to be prepared for other people being able to help or you being able to help other people as opposed to just like shooting people that walk on your property because they're definitely going to kill you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Yeah, that's interesting. I know a lot of people who are prepper-ish or prepper-adjacent, and it's usually, they're coming for my cans of food, and it's like, Or they're coming to give you cans of food and make sure that your kids are alive, but okay. There's just a lot of that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I guess it depends on where you live, because of course people I know that are preparing for disasters in California, like us, we buy food, we have water, and we have solar panels, and we have batteries, and my wife's like, that's enough for us. And I'm like, but the neighbors are gonna come over, and they're old, and they're not gonna have this, and we need to be able to share with them.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
We can't be like, sorry, 80-year-old neighbors. Have fun dying of heat exhaustion in your house without any power. We don't have enough room for you or whatever. There's literally people that we know by face and name and we're like, they are not going to be able to handle this. They are too old. They can't be in the heat. They have to sleep here. They're going to have to eat with us.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
We're going to have to cook for them. We're going to need electricity for their phones and the lights in their room. Like all that stuff we're preparing for. Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
We kind of have to. No one's going to save Ildi across the street. That's us. She's going to walk over here if she's got any sense about her at that time. But yeah, we're a little light on guns and ammunition over here. We don't have a whole lot of that. I probably shouldn't say that. We're armed to the teeth. Don't even think about it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
But yeah, we focused more on the stuff we think will probably need like more water as opposed to armor piercing rounds.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
I know you've said that our first responders are great, but the average person is clueless. I also feel like this is me, like, okay, fine, I got some food and some water and some electric stuff, but I'm an Eagle Scout, and I'm still kinda like, what happens? I'm probably not prepared for mostly anything, and I know that my neighbors and family are not. They don't have anything.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
They'd be out of luck in a day. Their food would spoil. Like I've taken those courses too. And most of it's in one ear and out the other. So it's like, okay, but food and water only works if the purge doesn't happen. Maybe I've got three to five days and then I'm hurting again.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1106: Amanda Ripley | The Secrets to Surviving an Unthinkable Disaster
Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like podcast. Have you ever wondered how it feels to watch your house burn down, be attacked by an alligator, or learn that your spouse hired someone to kill you? What Was That Like is the podcast for you, if you're that person. Not the person who got hired to be killed, but the person who wondered, more thankfully.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
You're going to get, you're going to know the police are going to be like, we have footage of you dumping illegally.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, that kind of freaks me out a little bit.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Like the deer thing is maybe hunting, but the dead dog carcasses, if you find one, you're like, oh man, that's someone's pet. But when you find five dead dog carcasses, something's going on, man.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
That is strange. It is strange. I noticed you're not in the comments as much on social media as in years past. Is that, you're right, like the plague that infects your character. Is it related to that?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I agree. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I see a lot of hate now with the Israel stuff. You just see people post really gross stuff about one ethnic group or another. And I used to be like, Explain this to me. Like, let me, and then you realize very quickly, like, this is not, it's either not a real person at all.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's funny you mentioned that even the alive living person is not a real person. I've read this article years ago, and I have no idea where it is. Maybe my producer can find it. But it was about how this woman who's a journalist, she was looking at this really bad troll that was horrible online. And it turned out to be like her husband and she had tracked it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Actually, he interviewed me right after I interviewed him, and it was such a natural extension of our conversation. It's almost a sequel, or maybe it was a prequel, memory's a little fuzzy, of our other conversations.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And she's like, but wait, my husband's not an angry guy who's, what is it, nihilistic or whatever and cynical. So what's going on?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And it turned out that he just found it kind of cathartic to be this horrendously terrible person that posted kind of some evil stuff and harassed people, not harassed to the point where he was going out of his way, but he would just be like, oh, I'm going to push that button. He just kind of got like a juvenile kick out of it. And it got worse and worse.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And she's like, you need to stop doing this. And he was just like, okay.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Scream into the void.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, that's a good idea. I see. It's just interesting to think that the person who posted something horrible about like Jews or Palestinians or African-Americans is like the same guy or gal that is at the grocery store that's like, oh, I think you dropped your wallet, sir. And you're like, oh, thank you. thank you so much. That would have ruined my day. And they're like, yeah, no problem.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And you're like, that's the guy who secretly posted this thing and is like at my kids' soccer games and there's Jewish kids on the team and he doesn't have any real issue with them at all. It's just an online thing that gets him like feeling powerful. It's kind of sick actually.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
So if you like conversations with Ryan Holiday and you like conversations with me, which theoretically you kind of must if you listen to this podcast, you're going to like this episode as well. We talk about integrity, comparison, misinformation, parenting, and a whole lot more. Really, it's just another conversation with a very smart guy, and Ryan Holiday was there too. Now, I'm
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I use my real name online. I know you do too. It makes things a lot easier because you go, oh, this, I'm going to let this person have it. And then you're like, but then everybody who sees that is going to be like, Jordan Harbinger said this kind of awful thing to a person and that person, you know, their comment kind of deserved it. But shouldn't you be above that?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Like, aren't you a guy who was above this kind of crap? And you go, Yes, but if you're posting under your like pseudonym or whatever, then people will go, you get away with it. Yes. So I sort of created accountability for myself in that respect.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The plague that infects your character.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Real people come on every episode to explain the unbelievable situations they've been through. I think it's a funny concept for a show. I kind of wish I'd thought of it because I always get crazy stories from people. Not everything turns into a Jordan Harbinger episode. But What Was That Like?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
By the way, also, the dad jokes never quit, people. My kids are young. Get ready for decades of this. Also, I've got a little cold right now, as you can tell. That is not present in the episode. So if you find this kind of like nasally voice that I have right now a little bit annoying, fear not. The rest of the conversation was recorded months ago when my voice was actually in decent condition.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Ryan Holiday, just in time for the holidays. There's a joke in here somewhere that I was too lazy to write. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And I know networking is kind of a dirty word. Nobody really likes that. It's a little gauche these days. Anyway, I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself. as I just crap all over the concept for free in our course at sixminutenetworking.com. The course is about improving your skills with respect to this. It's super easy stuff. It's not cringy. It's very down to earth.
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1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
No awkward strategies or cheesy tactics, just practical exercises that'll make you a better connector, a better colleague, a better friend, and a better peer in a few minutes a day. And many of the guests on our show subscribe and contribute to the course. Come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course. Again, it's all free.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I don't need your credit card number, nothing like that, at sixminutenetworking.com. Now back to Ryan Holiday. It's interesting because part of it is social media bringing people down rabbit holes. And part of it is people getting way into social media during the pandemic because they couldn't leave their house. They had nothing better to do. So that was like a part of a vicious cycle.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And I think the other stuff is stuff that's been around for thousands of years when plagues hit, which is isolation, feeling of helplessness, desperately trying to regain a sense of control. And all of this ends up being, it can manifest itself in pretty horrible ways.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
All right, here we go with Ryan Holiday. It's funny, I haven't used my iPad in such a long time because my kids took it over, essentially. And my wife was like, do you want me to wipe it off? And I was like, you know what? Nah. Let the stuff stick all over it because then when I'm using it, I'll be like, oh, I miss my family and my little kids. There's like Cheerio mark on the space bar.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It is. And then people will use that to justify the anti-Semitism. Like, oh, yeah, well, y'all have been kicked out of 110 countries or 109 or whatever it is. I can't remember. We've lost track of how many countries we've been kicked out. And they'll go, yeah, it's been around for thousands. So it must have some shred of truth to it. And it's like, well, actually, we're still around.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
That's why this is still around, because Jews are still around. If we weren't around anymore, like no one's complaining about ethnic groups that they exterminated 100 century BC or whatever. No one's like, oh, those Babylonians. Yeah, no, no.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I definitely, I would love to talk about misinformation. We talked about it a little bit on your show. Do you feel like having kids has caused you to do more things in your life the right way? Because like maybe before having kids, you were like, I can get away with this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I see those people too.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
There's a key missing. That's hilarious. And it's humbling, man, because you're like, this is where daddy creates his masterpieces. And they're like, look, I pried a key off with the fork. And you're like, cool. Thanks. Was it you who told me that one of your kids picked up one of your books and was like, look, The Daily Butthole or something?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I like that. I think for me, you kind of encouraged me to think about this, I think in some ways, which is that, for example, every time you go somewhere, I know you're traveling today, so I'm going to, I'm twisting the knife, but like whenever you have to choose to go somewhere, it's like, this has to be important. Like I, Came to Austin because it's like, I'm going to be on your show.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I'm going to interview you. I want to see the bookstore. Haven't seen your wife in years or whatever it's been. And I would love to visit. And then it's like, and then I'm going to New York to do 8 billion things, not to hang out for four days and like maybe do some show. No, it's like. Back to back to back to back. It's not going to be all fun and games. It's going to be quite stressful.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And then my wife's like, do you want to take it easy and come back on Friday? Or do you want to, I'm like, nope, come back on Thursday night and get back late and then go straight to bed after a really long ass day. And the next day I'm going to be on a plane to San Diego to go to Legoland. And I can't be like, oh, daddy doesn't want to build Legos. I'm tired.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's like, no, I'm going to caffeinate and get her done. You have to have a reason to do all of these things that take you away from your family. Before I had kids, I was like, I'll go somewhere. Why don't we stay at this place for like a month? Let's throw an extra week and just stay in Hawaii and fart around. It's like, you really have to prioritize.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I guess you could screw up your kids and not do that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Likewise. And I think you're right. There's most of these examples I think you've given me. Gandhi was like the last kids were last in line. Yeah. Angela Merkel, her dad was, I think, a pastor or a priest.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Last in line. And then was it the Queen of England who like was gone for months at a time and then she sees her kids and they run up to give her a hug and she's like, no, not right now. And then she like greets some dignitary people.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, it sucks to read that stuff because you think, is this a necessary trade? It's not. I don't think it is.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Man, how old was the kid who said that?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It was not like... Because the thing is, you think about like, was that actually a joke? Or does he just really regard my work as the crappiest thing in the whole store?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's tough when you face yourself with that reality. I, for example, and I've told you this a thousand times, but whatever, it's a podcast. So you have to put up with that. I haven't written a book. And one of the reasons is I want to write a book when I really have something to say, not when my agent wants like a house in Nantucket or whatever for a commission.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
But one of the other reasons is my kids are two and four or almost five. And your agent will always tell you, we're going to help you with the ghostwriter. It's going to be a lighter lift. I'm like, what about the five years? First of all, no, I don't want to have somebody like do this whole thing for me and then it's crap or mediocre. And then I have to promote it for five years.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I could say to my wife, look, look how much money they're offering me. Sure. Isn't this going to be great? We can send them to any school we want, any college we want. We can go on vacation. We could take them to Disneyland every weekend with all this money. But the truth is, I'm not going to be done with work at 5 p.m. anymore. I'm going to be done at 8.30.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Or whatever, because I'm doing it maybe four days a week. Maybe on Friday, I'll leave a little. What is really going to matter more? And if you really think about it, your kids are not going to care if when you're dead, they get a little bit more. Yeah, book royalties are like more money in the will and the trust and estate.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
They're going to be like, I just remember playing with my dad like every day after school. Or do they remember you not being available at all after school? But cool, I got a boat because my dad passed away. Yeah. You know, like you really have to ask yourselves these questions. Sure.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And you find out that the answer is no, you wanted to write that book so you could get that money and then you could do a book tour and everybody thinks you're brilliant and special and fun and you're talking and people are admiring you and maybe you hit the list so you get that cool thing. You get a plaque, you know, that stuff is meaningful, but is it better than spending time with your kids?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
The answer is almost always no, but there's so much shine on that stuff, man.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, I suppose. I get that. I've chosen my kids over my career in many ways. That's good. It is kind of tough because you go, oh, I bet I could build, well, no, it's going to take a lot of extra time. But then you just really have to be honest with yourself and ideally before you have kids, ask yourself what you really want.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Because we've all seen those kids whose parents actually just wanted to be the best plastic surgeon in Michigan instead of being a dad. And I saw what happened to those kids and it wasn't good. I try to make decisions.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, it seems like you shouldn't find it hurtful because you are their father. Like they don't mean it, mean it. Yes. It's probably a mark of social intelligence that they are trying to rip you down to shreds.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
So I think that's- You ever hear older guys be like, I've never changed a diaper in my life. And I'm thinking like, you don't know what you're missing, pal. Yeah. Actually, it's quite funny and fun to be that intimately involved With the caring of your kids. But you're right. Maybe a generation ago, it was kind of considered like, oh, what are you, some kind of loser?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
You don't have anything better to do?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's true. Look, and I'm always, if people are on the fence about not having kids, I would say don't.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, please don't for the rest of us and also for the kids. I guess the book itself doesn't have feelings, but it doesn't need to be out there. Save the trees. There are people that have work and you go, I couldn't do this if I had children, so I decided not to. And you're like, but you do a radio show. So like, I mean, it's a great show, but really like when you're gone...
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
maybe people replay this occasionally, but they're just going to be like old folks when they're gone. No one's going to go back a hundred years and listen to your old interviews, really. I mean, it's very unlikely.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Sure. I think there's a good chance that in 100 years, somebody will read a book about stoicism that you've written. That's pretty cool. I was telling my producer, when my kids are grown and they're listening to this and he goes... Funny of you. Bold of you to think that your son, Jaden, is going to be listening to more than one of these ever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
He's going to listen to a couple and be like, ah, that's kind of fun. Never again. Maybe when he's like 75 and retired, he'll be like, oh my God, my dad has all that audio. Maybe I'll listen to that when I'm cutting the lawn or whatever the equivalent is then. Maybe. But otherwise, no.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
is hosted by my friend Scott Johnson, who's naturally curious and gives his guests the opportunity to share how they've really felt during some of their most surreal experiences. What they did in the morning before an earthquake, what song was playing as a gunman entered, was their stomach growling as they hid? Guests share everything they remember about their crazy, crazy experiences.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
So the idea that you're trading time with them or trading some experience or thing that you could build with them to create that is laughably, it's totally ridiculous. So why not just shut down your show and be a stay-at-home dad? It would be great if I could earn a living. And I love what I do.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
So, I don't know. I'd still like to do something other than, you know, I thought about that. I was like, what if I took a hiatus? It's tough with creating things like a podcast because you lose your audience. Like, you never get it back. But I'm taking way more time. Like, I'm taking two months off starting next week, actually. Legoland is the beginning of the end of my work until the fall.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Honestly, if my kids magically were going to stay five and two forever, I would just retire because I would take care of them. The problem is when I retire and then they're like 12 and they're like, why are you home? What are you doing? I know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
There's that whole 18 summers thing. And I'm like, whoever said that, did they really have kids? Because- When they're 13, the last five summers, they do not want any part.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I think it's quite funny. Like my son, he's at the point where he's like making a mess is funny, which I, that's not the humor I can share in. Cause I'm like, I've got to clean all this crap up. Yeah. But he will often ask a question that's so innocent, but so harsh, like just so brute, like a brutal observation that's framed in a way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Psycho, yeah, psycho parents. Yeah, I think a lot about investing in the relationship with my kids.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
and you know i'm reading like what's the book he recommended constantly good inside yeah that's like the current play on my phone she's i find myself just starting over because i'm like i just need to absorb this even more have you had her on yet not yet it's only a matter of time i'm like the biggest dr pecky evangelist yeah i'm gonna take that warm intro at some point because she everything she says is like either confirming a hunch where we're like oh good we're doing the right thing or i'm like oh i like the way of looking at so so we'll link to that book in the show notes for this episode but
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I found that, and I think I'm digressing from a point she made, but I find almost like less motivation in building my business. Same work ethic, less drive to expand things at the cost of having a relationship with the kids. And it seems like I used to do all my shows in person, right? And it was great. But now I would never make the choice to fly out to New York for just one show. Yes.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's all I can do to resist being like, go ask mommy that question. Because I'm like, okay, is this going to hurt her feelings? I don't want to do that. But I feel like she should share in this particular bit of misery. Yes.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Or something like that. It has to be this like fully...
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with my guest, Ryan Holiday. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support those who make this show possible. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash AI. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find the code, you can feel free to email us jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I'm more than happy to surface that code for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Now for the rest of my conversation with Ryan Holiday. I think it was Dan Ariely on my show who said something like, you know how to get out of saying yes to things that you regret later? He's like, instead of, hey, in six months, you're going to do this. We're going to go to Austin, New York. Then you're going to go to Mexico. And then you got to go to Europe and do your European whatever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
You have to imagine that it's next Tuesday.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Can you go to New York for a week? Oh, that sounds awesome. It's next Tuesday. No, actually, I don't feel like it. And I've got some stuff I want to do. You're going to have stuff you want to do in 18 months during that trip that you're planning to go to New York for a week.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah. It's like filling a calendar that's empty. Okay. That calendar is eventually going to be full. And now you got this big block thing that you kind of didn't really want to do. You said yes, because it was at this, it's like a problem for future Ryan. You don't envy that guy. Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
The other thing I think it makes it easier is you imagine your kids dying vividly, not like graphically, I guess you should say, but was it you who wrote about imagining visiting your child's grave?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And this is the guy with the best medical care money could buy, I guess, right?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And he's like, you stink. So it immediately turns my dad into a six-year-old child, which is maybe not the best thing.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
But it's like, you stink. And he's like, well, I'm not playing with you, Grandpa. And he's like, well, I'm not playing with you. It's funny, but other times I'm like, can we not do this right now? It's really funny to watch your parents turn into kids while your kids are also being kids. And I'm like, I'm parenting both of you. I have to cook my kid something that he'll eat, right?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, man. It is kind of depressing when you think about a lot of it. By the way, you have a pool here. That's a good call. It's like 97 degrees today.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Because it's just a warm, it's too hot of a pool. It's like a hot tub?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Oh, gosh. Even when it's in the ground?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Look, if you have a pool in Dubai, how hot do you think it is? But that's climate change for you. It's just because it's so hot. Yeah, well, I mean, it does sound nice to jump in a nice, cool pool. I actually wish I had kids earlier.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's funny, I never used the freedom I had back then. I wouldn't say never, but I also paid for it in loneliness in some ways, right? Yeah, sure. In 2020 hindsight, I was ready a lot. Well, actually, you're never ready to have kids. You're as ready as you're going to get, and you think you're going to be readier later, and you just aren't. You're just older.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah. Now you're right. It depends on the support structure you have. It's a shame. I'm not trying to shame anybody who doesn't want kids. I think it's a fair choice. I just wasn't, I wish it wasn't all the smart, good people who were like, you know what? No, choosing my career or, you know, or they wait too long and they can't.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I would have gotten married earlier too. I think I just waited. I think so too. On everything. Every time. Cause it was like, Oh, I don't want to get married right away. And then it was like, well, I just got married. I actually got to enjoy being married for a while. And then suddenly you're just like, Oh crap. If I don't have kids now, I'm going to be like 60 moving my kids into college.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
which is actually possibly going to be true for me. And depending on when they go to, well, maybe moving them out of college, I'll be 60 and it'll be like, holy crap, I can't lift this by myself. I got a bad back. Chasing money and status, it makes sense when you're single. Yes. But if you're doing it when you're married and you have a family already, I think you're kind of doing it backwards.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And then my dad's like, I don't want that. This, I want pizza. I'm like, can you maybe behave like an adult for a second? You're 80 years old, for God's sake. That's amazing. You've been on the show so many times. How many? You know, that's a good pop quiz. I bet it's like five times. I bet it's way more than five. You might be right.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Interesting. What do you mean? I think we get stuck in that mode and it's hard to escape. It's like, it's like a black hole. You start to feel good about it. Like you said, you rationalize that you're doing it with your, or doing it for your kids. But if you're really honest with yourself, a lot of it is for yourself. Like if I wanted, and my YouTube is like 1% of my audience, right? But,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
All of the fame comes from the people recognizing you from YouTube.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
That does happen, but it's pretty rare. And I know friends who are YouTubers that have like millions of subscribers and they make a fraction of what a podcaster makes as a big audio audience. But you can't even go to like Starbucks with them without people being like, whoa. I can't believe it's you guys.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And they have a meetup and like 600 people show up and they thought maybe like 30 people are going to show up. It's like a real thing. My team was like, you know, you can build that. You have all the raw material. You just need to start doing your shows in person. They need to be a little bit longer.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
You need to pick these certain controversial guests to sprinkle in because they get a lot of clicks. And you go, I think we talked about this on your show, like, oh, I'll make extra money and I can really like I can send our kids to school and do this. Now I'm forgetting what we talked about in your show and what we've already talked about here, but you really do rationalize it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
The problem is it's never enough to fill the hole. The fame, here's something we definitely haven't talked about. The fame is, it's a weirdly intoxicating thing. Before I had any money, I didn't really care about being wealthy. I just thought like, if you're well off, you win. Sure. Which is true, by the way. But then you get some money and you go, wouldn't it be cool if also...
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I was recognizable. On your show, we talked about those rich people that suddenly want to be YouTubers and it's like, what are you doing? Don't get me wrong. Beyonce is famous. I'm just a podcaster. But you really start to, it's like this insidious hole in your soul. And when you think about it, it's like I drilled the hole in my soul that could be filled with fame.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
But like what? I'm curious. Well, look.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
If you count my old show and this show, it's probably like, yeah, it might be twice that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's like the weekly Stoic, the bi-weekly Stoic, whatever.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah. I noticed you never show your kid's face on social media. And when Jen and I were talking, she'll sometimes go, oh my God, this is so cute. And she'll send me a photo and she's like, you should post that. And then she's like, oh wait, no, no, no, no. And I never would. I mean, the only way she posts all of our family stuff and she's got a private, whatever, we have to be like accepted.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I always try to think about it like the most famous person that my mom had heard of growing up is somebody that you and I will have never heard about. Yeah. I can't even imagine who that person might be. And, you know, those things that make all your parents feel old, like when they go, oh, that's like so-and-so. And you're like, who?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
That makes sense because you were on for that. Yeah. July of 2012 was when my first book came out. I remember one of the times was quite funny. Afterwards, you go, wow, that was like a real interview. And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, well, you know, you might want to consider videotaping these. And I was like, oh, that's a good idea.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Even now it's starting to happen to me where I'm like, oh, yeah, this is like this person. And I'm not talking about like Charlie Chaplin. I'm talking about somebody who I think is reasonably current. And I'll be talking to somebody who's like 29 and they just go, who is that again? And I have to explain who this person is. And I realize I'm the weirdo.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's not that this person is profoundly disconnected from history. It's that they don't have any clue who like Audrey Hepburn was, which is also before my time. This is the beginning of the absolute fading of that person in the zeitgeist or the cultural memory. And this is a super famous person. This is when there was a handful of famous people at any given time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Now there's a gazillion podcasters and YouTubers and musicians and whatever else. You're just going to blend into the cacophony of that, even if you're an A-list film celebrity right now, which you're not.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I never thought about that because I was doing them in Skype. Yeah. And he's like, you should do some sort of video. And I was like, oh, Skype video really stinks though. And you're like, yeah, but then you could see the person. I thought that was quite a nice compliment. It was like a real interview. I was like, oh, what are you normally dealing with?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
How did he die? I don't even know, actually.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
A lot of people who get caught up, my friends were like making tons of money and stuff. They start going like, looking at what they're going to buy online, even fantasy shopping. I was talking to my wife because one of my friends is selling his company for like hundreds of millions. And I'm like, what are you going to get? Like, are you going to get a plane or a boat or both?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's fun to think about. And I was telling my wife, I was like, yikes, probably never going to get there. Not even headed towards that. Don't really care. And she's like, Yeah, I don't really think we need that. And I was thinking, what would I take in a fire? My kids, my wife, maybe my laptop would be a little inconvenient, but I'm like, I don't really need that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
My cats, I take my kids, my wife and my cats. I would stand in the street and watch my house burn down. I wouldn't even go back in for anything else, even if I thought I could get it. What do I need? I don't need any of that stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to quote you, if I may, said, get the fuck out of here. And it was like, I'm just asking if I can landscape your, but you're like, this is, you just went into like an open, I don't know, it was an open window or what?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
outcome dependent yeah it is funny to look back historically on you're right when I first not even when I first started halfway through when I started this second iteration when I started the Jordan Harbinger show from my previous show kind of like unplugging things and plugging it back in I remember going okay And it was a very small number of what I thought I would need.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And of course, you know, that's like what you get in a week now or whatever. But when I first, first started, I remember I was an attorney before and I go, if I could make one half as much as I make as a lawyer doing this other thing that I love, that would be so awesome. And of course now it's beyond that. And then you think, oh, but how do I double this?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And it's just so silly because the way you double it is to ruin this thing that you love by doing it a hundred times more than you want to and not seeing your family.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Well, part of it is doing it once. Like winning one gold medal and realizing your life isn't completely.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Because you're supposed to spread them out.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, man, I find this, this is really helpful because the whole comparison thing, right? It's the thief of joy and all these awards that you can get for books or like sales goals and little press release things. Look, that stuff can be motivating, I guess. But for me, usually it's like four o'clock in the morning, I get up to pee. I don't need to be motivated then.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
That's called anxiety at that point. And I just find the negative comparison stuff, it kind of all, it blends together and it kind of cures almost like concrete or asphalt in a way that's really, you have to scrape it off your soul at the end. And it's not good. I was so much happier with podcasting before you could know how many downloads you had. Sure.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
There used to be this time where you would rent server space on like GoDaddy and they would go, oh yeah, this file was, like there was no stats dashboard. You just have to look at how many MP3 files were downloaded over a 30 day period. And it would be like 80% partial downloads because that's the files are long and you had no idea what that really meant. And you go, okay.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
And then there were 40,000 full downloads. Does that mean it's 40,000 people? And then they would explain to you that you can't really tell how many unique people it was without doing like some sort of complex calculation that they aren't going to do for you. And you go, oh, okay. Well, I guess since I like it, I'm just going to keep doing it. I was so much happier when that was it.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Now you can look every minute and there's up-to-date statistics and it shows you where your rank is compared to somebody else. Like this is like the most unhealthy way to do something you love.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
That's true, right? Once you're at the top tier author level, you're still getting paid for talks. It's still worth it for you to write another book. You already have a topic. I know you have the next like four, three or four books.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Do you take a break between books?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah. I like that. I like that outlook. I always learn a lot from you, whether or not I'm reading your stuff over at the Daily Dad at dailydad.com. That's my major Ryan Holiday fix, is Daily Dad stuff.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
So if you want to hear some disturbing slash inspiring firsthand stories about the thoughts that go through your head while surviving a kidnapping or winning the price is right, What Was That Like? is the podcast you've been looking for. Every story is thoroughly researched and fact-checked so you know even the most unreal stories are actually someone's reality. Listen to What Was That Like?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Is it really? You always text me about it, which I appreciate. I do, yeah. And I appreciate you, man. And I know that sounds creepy, actually, when people say that, but I mean it. And thanks for having me over at the Painted Porch as well. Yeah, thanks for coming.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Who wants to see a magic trick? For an inside look at the levers in our own brain, alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists, check out episode 150 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. All things Ryan Holiday will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
That doesn't change.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. The idea here is to give you something specific and practical, something that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your psychology, your relationships in under two minutes a week, every Wednesday. If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It's a great companion to the show.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Jordan Harbinger dot com slash news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute networking as well over at six minute networking dot com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. I'm also on LinkedIn. Feel free to connect with me there. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. So if you know somebody who's a Ryan Holiday fan and might dig this episode, definitely share this one with them.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
At first I thought like, gosh, this guy's really going to extra lengths. But who walks into a vacant building in Texas? Yeah. That has clearly got stuff in it. Like that seems like a really good way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Yeah, so that's kind of funny. So, of course, I'm reminded of that consistently when something weird like that ever happens. I have to say, like, it's fun to be here at the Painted Porch doing this in this, like, hallowed studio where you destroyed all these books. I know you kind of revere the book. Was it weird? I mean, none of those are ever going to be able to get read again. Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
That's pretty cool. I wondered how you cut the edge piece. So for people that are not watching this, this is a studio where the whole wall is stacks of books glued to the wall and glued to each other. And it looks really good. Did you go in the store? I haven't yet.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Let's line this fireplace with old paper. No, no, no.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Of course. Yeah, even still. Yes. It's funny because when I was like, oh, we should do another podcast. And whenever – I usually dictate text because it's faster. But whenever it's you or other author friends, I'm like, I got to freaking proofread this because, you know. Yeah. You got like 15 bestsellers, 16 now maybe? I think this is my 16th book.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
So – I got to make sure there's like an Oxford camera in the right place. Otherwise it's like, do I, I didn't know Jordan was a moron.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
It's like watching a video at full volume. Exactly. Like, I get to put in my AirPods to listen to this thing? No, thank you. Put it up to my ear at a table. The voice memo thing is, there's probably a writing corollary, or there's a similar example with writing, I'm sure. But if I have to write something, I have to clarify my thinking. Yes. Right? And I go... Are you going to be there tonight?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Looking forward to seeing you. But if it's a voice memo, it's, hey, man, what's up? Sorry, I'm just getting in my car. Dude, it is so hot today. Oh, man. And I'm going to get like a smoothie or whatever. I'm with the kids. So do you think, are you going to go to Jimmy's thing tonight? And if you do, like, let me know, because I might go too. And if you don't, well, whatever, I'm going anyway.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
So I guess you're just like, this could have been one sentence. What are you doing?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Even if you are though, you could still dictate it. Unless you can't talk, right? But in which case, why are you sending me a voicemail? Yeah. or don't edit it and whatever. If there's a wrong word in there and I can read between the lines, fine. It's the mumbling and the rambling where I'm like, we're not on a phone call. This is, I can't even, I'm not even spending time with you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Like if I'm on the phone with somebody and they're like, oh, I'm just getting in the car, man, it's so hot in Texas. I'm like, where at least we're talking. If you're just talking at me, it's the equivalent of a podcast where I'm like, hey, so what do you guys want to talk about? I don't know. Oh, well, you wrote a book, didn't you? That's cool. No, you don't handle a podcast like that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
So now I'm a victim of your four-minute podcast that could have been one sentence. That's what a voice memo is. It's unbelievable. You're in this weird place where people analyze everything you do through a lens of stoicism. And it's a little bit hard to watch sometimes. Like recently you were cleaning up like a dog carcass and garbage that had just been thrown in a row to your house.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
I had to do this yesterday. You filmed because you were like, hey, I want to set an example. I assume because you're like, I want to set an example of what it means to live a good life and encourage other people to do the same. And people are like, why are you filming your virtues, bro? That's not stoic. That's not stoic, bro. What do you think is happening there?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1086: Ryan Holiday | How to Fix Your Life with Stoicism
Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional gold smuggler, real life pirate, or music mogul. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
So I get a notification in wire in our chat group for the Georgia cell and it looked normal. Hey, is everybody available for this date for a training kind of thing?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And Luke said, bring the sub.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
If that meeting date that he was calling for is something bad, we need to slow it down and stop it until we can figure out what's going on.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I said, oh, well, hell, I'll be cruising through there tomorrow. and it's like 1 by the time I get there, 1.30, something like that. Of course, he's still asleep because he stays up until like 5 in the morning or something, hating on the phone. But I knock and knock. I sit there for a while. He finally comes down, and I say, Hey, morning, sunshine.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Then we put our phones in the cooler and walk over to the side of the barn, and I say something to the effect of, Look, you know, I'm a jokester, man. You know, I love to have a good time. But when it's time to be serious, I'm fucking serious. So what are we doing? And he looks at me and he says, essentially, we're going to whack some people.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I was like, oh, well, that's way different than putting up posters.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Oh, I got, yeah, I'll tell you that. The neo-Nazi movement, the white nationalists, whatever you want to call it, You got your beliefs, and especially as an accelerationist, you're wanting to speed up the collapse of society. But you have the left infiltrating or just exposing, doxing members of the base and other members in hate groups.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
You know, your guy from Canada, Patrick Matthews, was a perfect example.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
He's out of the guard. They came and got his guns. His parents don't like him anymore. He lost his job. He comes into the United States illegally. And his idea is to be part of a ghost team that just goes around with other ghosts and kills lefties because there was no repercussions for the left for what they're saying is ruining other members' lives, right?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And it was all about putting fear back out there as well.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Luke even joked and said that Pat was asking him what size of plate carriers and stuff he would need. And Luke gave him his own size because he's thinking, hey, you guys keep spending money and stocking up because when we come kill you, we're going to take all your shit.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
dude, look at how thorough you are just to go put up posters. Look at this op sec. Look at all this stuff you do just to put up stickers. And I mean, who's going to jail for putting up stickers on a pole that's already got stickers on it? Unless you just don't want people to dox you because you're putting up hate stuff. And you're telling me we're getting ready to go kill somebody in about a week.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And you've never even been by the house. Why are you so haste? And he said, I'm just tired of waiting. I want to do something. And then it hit me that my legend was a site survey specialist.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I said, man. if you can give me the location that we're going to be looking at, I said, this is what I do for a living. I go, I can go in here and I can make it look like I'm looking at residential areas or mercantile areas to buy land. And I'm going to pull up the zoning laws. I'm going to start comparing neighborhoods. I'm going to look at demographics. I'm going to look at crime.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I'm going to look at schools. It may take a little bit. I said, but I can do this, have everything we need on that couple at that house.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
We drove out there and we looked at the front of the house, the back of the house. It was basically a Luke neighborhood.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
We were going to go to a camping site, and that's why he called it the camping trip. And there, everything would stay, except our bodies. You know, we're going to leave with our guns. We were going to go to probably a pay-by-the-hour cash motel.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And then the idea was for all of us to shower, scrub, maybe even, I think we mentioned like a loofah, you know, scrub all any kind of dead skin flakes off so there's nothing that could drop DNA-wise. And then at that motel, we would suit up. Completely covered, gloves, boots, duct tape pants inside the boots, duct tape sleeves to your gloves so nothing could come out.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Put the balaclavas on and roll out from there.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
He even went as far as to read that a lot of people who kill somebody for the first time is such an overwhelming thing that they lose control of their bowels. So he was saying we should wear like adult diapers. And I'm like, I think I'm going to be all right. I got bumped up. Originally, I was just going to drive Helter Brand, Caterly and Lane.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I was going to drive them up to this house, and they were going to go in and do all the bad stuff, and I'd be out in the car. Then it became, as Luke started planning more and getting deeper into it, he tells me he wants me on the inside with him because he needs somebody who has experience. You know, I never said I killed people. I just said I'd done a lot of stuff.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
But he told me, he said, I want somebody who's experienced on the inside. Eventually became, we're all going in. Helter brand, there was like an extended bay window off of the front of the house. So it kind of protrudes out from the house and it's got glass. So you've got a good viewpoint to watch everything.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Helter Brand was going to post there watching while Luke and myself went through the house to find the couple and kill them. And then it would be Caterly that would be pouring gas everywhere because we were going to burn the house down once we killed the couple.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And as we're driving, Helter is in the backseat, and he says, hey, if you don't mind, I'd like to pop my cherry on this one. And I'm thinking, pop your cherry? What the hell are you talking about? Because pop your cherry means something different to me. He says, I actually want to put a bullet in one of them's head.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
One of us said, well, what if there's kids there? And Helter Skelter, I remember at Plains Day, he says, I don't have a problem killing commie kids. So, in other words, if you're a kid of a leftist, you're considered a commie. And I'm like, all right, keep talking. I mean, the recording's rolling, right?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
It's a bag that attaches to the gun. So you shoot that weapon, brass expels, but that bag will catch it. In other words, you're not leaving anything behind for cops to use to try to figure out who you are.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Who am I killing? I'll be a legion. I'll do whatever you want me to do.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Thereby, we are Helping the acceleration. Well, yeah. Yeah.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
You're still LARPing back in your fucking daddy's barn. I was able to get everything that the case team wanted to know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Or they would say something and I'd go, ah, I can follow on that. Yeah. That's a good way in right there. Bam. And at one point I remember sitting there because, you know, I'm looking for where this camera could be. I kind of I mean, I know the view that they had of the apartment because I'd seen some of the recordings from the case team. And I'm pretty sure I found where the camera was at.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I went to take a sip of my drink after they were like spewing exactly what they wanted to hear. And I just remember as I took a sip, I looked right where I believe the camera to be. And I winked at it because I knew the team was on the other side watching.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And, you know, it's all steamy, and I'm, like, feeling like crap. And I wipe the mirror off, and I look in there, and I said, get behind me, Satan. I said, you and all your minions can jump on my coattails all you want, but I'm finishing this damn case. We're crossing the finish line. And I'm sure I said it out loud, too, because that's me. I'm a verbal guy. But I know, right, shocker? Yeah.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I told him the day before, you know, let's make sure as we're getting close to this murder, these murders of this family and stuff, the last thing we need to do is be driving around town and get pulled over. And even if we got the guns legally, we don't want to be on anybody's radar. And he's like, yeah, man, I agree. So when he hops in my truck, I'm like, hey, You're clean, right?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
You don't have any gun on you. He said, no, no, no. I was going to pretend that something was wrong with my truck. And lo and behold, it's a sound. I don't know what happened. I didn't hit a hole, but it made a very loud noise. And I was like, did you hear that? And Luke goes, yeah. I said, if this damn truck is messed up again, I said, I swear I just paid to get this thing fixed. So we pull left.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I've been doing undercover work since 1996. I have never had to burn Bibles. I have never had to burn an American flag. And I damn sure was never with a group of people that stole a goat, sacrificed it at a pagan ritual, and drank its blood. And I did all that shit in about three days with these guys.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And as we're coming to the spot, I was like, hey, you know what? I'm just going to pull over real quick. I didn't want to be suspicious, but I needed to get him close to a fence so he wouldn't be able to easily open his door and run kind of thing. So I'm kind of pulling up beside it. And while I'm around at the back of the truck, kind of acting like I'm looking at stuff, another truck pulls up.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And it's actually one of the case agents. And he pulls up and he's like, hey man, you need any help? And as I'm walking towards him, I'm like, dude, how long have you had this truck? This is a nice truck. As I'm saying all that and kind of trying to draw the attention from Luke to us, I see out of my peripheral vision that Bearcat's pretty much pulling right up on that door.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
You got a guy and the SWAT team up in the turret. Guns are all aimed in and I dive in the back of the agent's truck going, go, go, go, go, go. And he's hauling ass out of there. And all I can hear is, you know, the commands from the SWAT team screaming.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
How you doing? I'm Scott Payne. Scott Payne. How you doing?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Sometimes I just look normal. Were they like suspects? So every now and then, it would come out even in the main channel, the main wire chat room, you know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
So I just, I told somebody backstage, told him the line. And I said, man, I've been undercover since 1996. Working all kinds of stuff. I said, I've never had to burn Bibles. I've never had to burn American flags.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Here we go. Tent. If you want a personal tent with privacy and don't want to cuddle with the bros in the big tent. Rifle and sidearm. Ammo. At least 600 rounds for rifle to participate, but 1,200 rounds are recommended just in case. At least 200 rounds for a sidearm to participate, but 400 rounds are recommended. Bring your own food and drinks or have enough money to buy what you need.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Yep, close to it. The last year before I retired, I had a very, very well-placed source that had been in the movements forever and ever. He said that two years prior to that, accelerationists were fringe. He said at the time when we were getting towards the end of my career, He said, I guarantee you that 90% of the white nationalists that are on these dark web platforms are accelerationists.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
The thing that I saw that was kind of like a common bond was broken home, need to belong. Bullied and no partners. Girlfriend, boyfriend, whichever way you persuade. They had no partners. So, for me, 28 years in law enforcement, it all starts at home, in my opinion. And nobody's proven me wrong yet. If you can, please do. But for me, it all starts at home.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Thank you. And thank you all for what you're doing. Thank you.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Bueno. Oh, I'm still on. Hey.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I could tell you from him portraying a lot of these groups, yeah, a lot of them were like, man, Trump's our guy, Trump's our guy. And then about halfway through, they're like, this is bullshit. He opened our eyes, but this, that, and the other. The white supremacists, it didn't take them long to jump off of that.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
But here's what I would say to any leader, especially if you're the leader of the United States. Once? Could you de-escalate something just once? Could you defuse something just once?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
You can. I'm just saying I don't want to. Me personally. It's almost like sometimes I don't think they know, and I really don't. I believe that they don't know because they haven't been in these telegram groups, these wire groups, these 4chan, 8chan, 12chan, whatever the heck they got now, and just see what one thing like that sparks for thousands upon thousands of anti, I mean, just hate groups.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
You know, and they're riding on it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
That's a good counter. And I don't have a rebuttal. I don't disagree.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Bring plenty of water. None will be provided.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Are you trying to divide viewers or listeners from me? You know what I've told you. I was law enforcement for 28 years. I'm pro-military. Those industries don't do too well under certain regimes. I think for a lot of you.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Get out there and talk about it, you know what I mean? Especially in your historical hate groups, you know, like the Klan and stuff like that. I've just found... It's just a lack of education a lot of time.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I mean, I'm speaking for myself growing up in the Southeast and seeing things and being a victim of some things that could have easily turned me to be this hateful person to certain people based on their color or their dress or however they acted and talked. But the more educated I got, the knowledge is power. It's that old saying, knowledge is power. Just get out there, man. Talk.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Five changes of clothing, good quality boots, preferably black.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Luke was like, you know, I forget how he worded it, but basically you need to be able to use the bathroom because him and his dad's place was on a septic tank. And he said, I can't have, you know, 15, 20 guys going up there flushing the toilet every day.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Something like that. Yeah. I mean, bring something. Yeah. I mean, you know, whether you've got your own like portable bucket with a lid or whatever. And I called Luke and I'm like, hey, do you guys have Port-A-John rentals down there? Because here I am an older guy. I actually have a J-O-B. I got a job. You know, I got money. Whereas a lot of these kids are still living at their parents' house.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
They don't even have a car, but they've got an arsenal. And I ended up getting one. And, you know, he bragged. He's like, hey, everybody think, you know, pale horse. He basically got us a shitter.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
They call it what they want. I'm like, hey, I need a bathroom. That's what I'm saying.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
So I knew that I was going to be meeting Big Siege, DEMA. I'd never met face to face.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Aizen, Bunnish Snake, Can't Go Back, Apocryphon, Zumnat, and Pestilence, Helter Skelter, and Luke.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Oh, some were atrocious. Some were, oh my goodness.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
You know, like one of them, he was skin and bones. Here's a guy who hasn't slept in well over 24 hours. He worked third shift, drove straight from Austin, Texas, except for the slight moment he fell asleep somewhere in Alabama and rear-ended somebody on Adderall. And you're trying to watch this guy hold a weapon, and you're like, oh, my goodness, man. Not good. Not good.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I chose not to come in as, like, Mr. Instructor because it's kind of a liability thing. You got to remember, in the FBI, we got a bunch of attorneys sitting back at headquarters. And they're like, well, if you go in there and you coach this person and you actually help them get better at their shooting and they go shoot somebody, well, they definitely don't want to do that, right?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I don't want to help them get better if they're planning on doing illegal, nefarious things to innocent people.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I remember walking back to my truck, and I couldn't even open the door. It was solid ice. And I looked at the back of the truck, and I went, I'm not sleeping in that. Because I had a sleeping bag, but it was not set up for that cold. So I cranked up my truck, and I slept in the truck with the heat on. And the next thing I know, my window is pounding.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Hey, hey, pale horse, pale horse, wake up, wake up. You're not going to believe this. You're not going to believe this. You know the goat? Yeah, we got it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I'm like, oh, well, let me get up. I walk out and I see that several of the members had... They stole a goat. I think it was a guy had like three goats or rams. I think the difference is the size. I mean, it had horns and stuff, but they stole the goat and I wake up to see the goat in the back of Kent Go-Back's truck.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
crapping all over the place and that's that's when uh i think dima said he's like man this this uh this goat's shitting everywhere and i'm like well i would be too if a bunch of big dudes dressed in flecktarn cambo and balaclavas with machine guns just jerked my ass out of the backyard and threw me in a truck yeah i'd be crapping all over the place too you know
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I remember going over and saying, hey, is it bad that I feel bad for the goat? And he was like, hey, do not let that goat hear that. We need to show this goat love. It needs to know that it's going to Odin, and we don't need anybody else to have any kind of bad vibes.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I go to my truck, and I lean into my transmitter device. And I'm talking to the team because I know they're in an abandoned building somewhere where they brought in a generator. And if I'm camping out for five days, they're camping out for five days. So I'm like, hey, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go sacrifice and kill this animal.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Okay, all right. You sound like I mean it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I kind of said something to the effect of, hey, if you guys can come up with any reason or you want me to stop this thing, send me a sign, you know, let me know. And I was sitting there quiet. My phone didn't ring and I'm just waiting. And I go, okay, well, I guess I'm going down in the woods. You feel like you're walking for a long way and it's just getting darker and thicker and darker.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I think I had like four tiki torches kind of set up. It's an opening in the woods and it's right next to a creek. So actually beautiful. Um, By this time, Eisen had already named the goat Gar. His middle name was Garfield. His grandfather was Garfield. And we're all circled around, and Eisen's kind of leading the blot. And it wasn't a machete, but it was pretty close to a machete.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
It was a long blade. We're holding the goat, and he's going to sacrifice the goat by chopping his head off. And I'm kind of holding this goat from the back, and it's kind of, you know, giving this little, this little bah, you know, and... What are you thinking?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
I'm just observing. That's all I'm doing. I'm just sitting back going, all right, I'm paying attention to everything that's going on, and, you know. So, Eisen starts leaning back, and he's... He's kind of down on his knees and he's got this big blade and he's kind of, you know, kind of doing it slow, like comes right to the neck. All right, I'm coming back up. I'm kind of working it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I think somebody finally says, just do it. He rears back with everything he's got. And you hear this thud like, and it didn't even break a hair. I don't know if the blade wasn't sharp, but I do know that the back strap on that goat was tough, and it probably had a double coat. And he hits that thing as hard as he can, and it goes thump, and all you hear it goes bah.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And then for that split second, I'm thinking, oh, this is going to get dirty. I'm like, I'm thinking he's going to go wild. Blood's going to go everywhere. I have no idea what's going to happen.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And then I think Pestilence says, does anybody have a gun?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
So I'm back there holding this goat and I look and Eisen's pointing the gun at the goat, but then he just turns his head completely the other way. And I've seen Eisen shoot and handle a weapon and he's not good at all. Then the firearms instructor and tactical instructor comes out at me and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, I go, look at what you're shooting at. We're all in a circle, man.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And now the goat's kicking.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
Then... They start cutting the neck of the goat and filling some type of glass with its blood. So now we're in this circle, and to start the shaman, we're still in our worshiping experience. Now, Aizen pulls out his sheets of acid, and he's breaking off pieces, and everybody's in a circle kind of on their knees, and Aizen is going to go to each person.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
He's going to give you the acid, and then you drink the blood of the goat.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
It wasn't too far after he ingested the blood, he started puking. And now it's getting to me because I'm kind of one of the last guys because I've been holding the flashlight. And I'm looking down at this cup of goat blood fresh from the neck. Well, kind of fresh from the neck. And it's already coagulating. It's getting really clumpy. It's like not looking good.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
So I took my finger, stuck it deep into the blood, pulled it out, put it in my mouth, sucked all the blood off my finger. Then I... chased it with a beer.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
So I'm walking back to my truck, and I'm like, okay, here it is, Halloween. I'm freezing my living tail off. I was so cold, I backed up so close to the fire, I'd burnt the back bottom of my pants. Didn't even realize it. I've drank blood. I've ate a gamey, gamey, crappy goat. And here I am wanting to knock about half the crew out.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan
And I'm just walking back to my truck, and I'm thinking, man, happy effing Halloween, you know?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Now it's not a voice phone call. Now I'm actually going to meet somebody. So I drive, you know, it might be a four-hour drive. down to Rome, Georgia, and it's kind of a rural area. It's a small town. I was instructed to pull into town. They even told me what parking lot to park in.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
In downtown Rome, there is a statue of a Roman wolf, oddly enough, and he said, when you get there, take a picture of that Roman wolf and send it to me. So I'm driving, I keep looping on these streets, and I see the Roman wolf statue. I take a picture of it and I send it to TMB. And I end up parking on a pretty steep hill.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Remember when I told you, when we first met, I said I'd heard that podcast and I was cussing at the computer while it was going on. I'm like, that dude is lying.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Yeah, so he knew it was a Nazi flag. I mean, I've sat on the porch of that guy and drank. I drank his alcohol. He drank mine. He's listened to pestilence. My educated opinion. He's saying that because he's on a call. He didn't want to tie himself to anything nefarious. He knows exactly what a swastika is. He knows exactly.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Now, to think that your kid's going through a phase to find out what's what, okay. How long do you want the phase to last? Two years? Four years? Six years? What's a phase?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
In law enforcement, I have really, really seen a parent's love. What I mean by that is, I can show you a video of your kid doing crime. On camera, their voice, them, the parent will still say, that's not my kid. I still love my kid. And that's what parents do.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
The reason that we got involved is because of the crazy stuff that was being posted. All I know is people that go online covert for the FBI were talking about this guy, TMB. They're like, this guy is, I mean, saying some crazy stuff. That was before me. That was before. That's what put them on the radar.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
It ebbs and flows. You might pick up a new member, and they do the interview, they pass, they get the face-to-face vetting, and then they're down in Georgia training with us. They're spewing hate and pro-Hitler and all this stuff, and then they get off on these tangents of giant Agarthans living in Middle Earth with Hitler, and they're coming back one day, and I'm just like, I need a drink.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
And I see a guy who's probably about 6'2". About 21 years old. Probably about 220 pounds. I mean, he's not a small guy. A little frumpy, maybe. Not, like, super muscular. Pretty thick glasses on. Moppish hair pushed over the side. I don't remember him being dressed like anything crazy, but the guy walking with him, who I learn is pestilence. He's wearing a tank top of some black metal band.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Good, man. I've been doing a lot of outside stuff myself with the daddy-doggy daycare and watering plants and shit and, you know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
You get more than just a 30,000-foot view. I mean, you're right there. You're not guessing.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
This is what they said. This is what they talked about. We had a few drinks, and they're saying, hey, what would really be cool is if we start killing a bunch of people. And you're going, oh, okay, all right, well, okay, that's different.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
You get a up-close-and-personal perspective.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
And he looked at me, he said, so I just vouch for you. So don't fuck this up.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
He has on black BDU pants that are bloused into his 8-inch combat boots, tactical boots. And his head is shaved on the sides, but his hair is long. Like it's, I mean, a ponytail probably down the middle of his back, right? So no harm, no foul. I get out. Hey, you know. So I don't even know if we shook hands. And TMB says, I need you to put your phone in airplane mode. And I'm like, okay.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
And I'm expecting that, right? He pulls out this thing that I've never seen. It looks like some kind of Geiger counter. I mean, it's got lights all over it, a triangle card. And I'm looking and going, hmm. So he wands me. No big deal. I'm fine. As TMB is walking down towards the back of my truck on the driver's side, that thing he's holding his hand starts making all kinds of racket.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
And I can see the lights kind of jumping. And I'm like, oh, crap. I'm thinking to myself, he tells me to shut my cell phone off. And I'm like, does this thing pick up a cell signal? And I'm thinking, oh, man, this is not good.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
You know, you get kind of the fight or flight, you know, and I'm like, well... It's definitely picking up what's on my truck. And he's not even close yet, and it's picking it up. I don't realize I'm doing it, really, but I'm already setting my right leg back, like almost fighter stance, you know. Not like bowing up, but I'm getting ready.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
And as he's getting toward the back of the truck, Pestilence says, hey, do you think it's the power lines? and TMB says, you know what, I don't know. And he walks over. So he starts walking over to the power lines, and that thing goes nuts. And he's like, shit, man, yeah, it is picking up the power lines. So he tells me, hey, I need you to follow us. We're going to go somewhere else.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Well, as I get back in my truck, I'm now calling the cover team, and I'm saying, hey, you need to shut this tractor off. But while I'm talking, I'm actually like bringing my drink up to my mouth because I don't know if they're looking from their car. I don't know if anybody else is following me. I don't know. I'm holding the phone down in my lap and I'm talking, trying to not be so obvious.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
And what the team tells me is we're not sure if we shut it off remotely, if we can get it back on. And I said, well, you need to shut it off or it's going to be probably the quickest undercover meet I've ever had. So I'm following him and he pulls into this parking lot of what appears to be an abandoned, or at least nobody's working while we're there, concrete plant.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
I just kind of giggle and I'm like, yeah, empty concrete plant. I mean, in what movies has nobody died at the empty concrete plant? Like half the action movies I've seen.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Uh, okay. So let me start with the bass.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Like, they said they shut it off, but what if remotely it didn't shut off, right? There's all these what-ifs going through your mind. And he goes past the truck. Truck passed the test. We get back in, and now I follow him in pestilence.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
I hung out, got to know him a little bit, had a couple of drinks, and after passing the face-to-face meet, I am now gifted with a black balaclava, which was the signature for the bass members, and I'm afforded a patch with the three runes on, which was the bass symbol.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
So I go back that night to my hotel room and I meet with one of the case agents who flew down to Georgia because this case is bigger than Georgia. It's all over the nation and the world. And he took a picture of me. I put my balaclava on and I put the patch right on my mouth. And there's a picture of me like in a red Harley Davidson shirt with two thumbs up going, I'm in.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
We've got to find this guy who has now been outed as Patrick Matthews because Ryan Thorpe, the journalist, infiltrated him. Where's this guy? What is he doing?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
We're just trying to infiltrate, ingratiate, try to find out if they're actually planning to do something really bad or not. All I know is I'm going down to do another training. I don't know who's always going to be there.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
That Saturday, they reached out to me and said, Said, hey, we'd like to have you in the base. And I said, awesome, I'd love to be here. So he says, you're going to be contacted by your closest cell leader. And it turned out that the closest cell leader was a guy going by the name of the militant Buddhist, TMB. And he was in Rome, Georgia. Now we're not emailing. Now we're not texting.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
I pull up to the barn and I'm looking at the cars and I'm going, okay, that's Helter Skelter's car. That's Pestilence's car. That's TMB's dad's truck, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, there's an extra body. There's not enough cars for it. But I don't have my glasses on. Great part of aging. So I'm like, huh. And I go walking up and I see this, I don't know, mid, late 20s guy.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
reddish hair, but it's all bushy and a bushy beard. I walk up, and I'm thinking, I don't know, maybe it's a new member. I'll find out who it is, what's going on. And then he starts to speak. And I'm like, hmm, that sounds Canadian. Because, you know, I mean, I grew up in the 80s, right? That's a big time. Strange Brew is one of my favorite movies. So, you know. And I love SCTV as well.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
But he immediately pretty much tells me. He's like, um... How you doing? I'm Punished Snake. You may or may not have heard about me.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
And I'm like, oh my goodness, he's here. He's here in Georgia. But, you know, being an undercover, I go, holy shit, man. Welcome to the United States, brother. And I hug him.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
It hadn't even been reported in Congress. They had congressional meetings where they're going, we now know that there is a violent white supremacist from Canada who's somewhere in the United States, you know? And I walk up and I go, oh my gosh, what are the odds, you know?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
As some people say, it's better to be lucky than good sometimes, right? And of course, as soon as I could, I let the case team know. And they're like, what? And I'm like, yeah, man, he's here. It's awesome. And now he's staying here. So now, for the next whatever, four months, every time I go to training in Georgia, I'm hanging out with Pat.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
FUCE 8667. It is August the 3rd. It's approximately 9.24 a.m. Eastern Time, Saturday.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
The group that I went in was being looked at because there was reporting that some people were making ghost guns and they were felons and they were selling weapons illegally.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
We are not opening a case on the Klan simply because they're in the Klan. You can't do that. That is First Amendment protected. That's one of the big issues working domestic terrorism in the United States. There's no domestic terrorism statute. You just try to find out if they're committing any kind of crime, and if they are, we can get evidence of it and get them off the street.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Oh, here they are. And I finally find the road to turn off on. And I roll up and right there at the gate is the Nighthawks who wear black robes and hoods. And they are more of the security. And immediately I'm like, I recognize that person. I recognize that person. And they're holding guns. And I'm like, I know that person's a felon. That person's a felon. And it's, I'm not going to lie.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And, you know, they treated domestic terrorism like it wasn't important. It did not get the resources and the funding. And, you know, I even had a supervisor, an executive management member, come to me one day and he said, why are you working that domestic terrorism stuff? He goes, don't you want to be with the big dogs? And I'm thinking to myself, boy, you have no idea.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Just by you saying that makes me want to work domestic terrorism even more, you know?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
There was actually a Klan hotline to call. It was kind of a shock to me. I'm like, they've got a hotline? Who's manning this? I mean, is this like... Is this like a telethon? I mean, they got like, you know, phone banks set up.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Right. 50 people waiting. Hey, the Klan, how can I help you? You know, but what it ended up being is is one guy answering the phone. I'm like, hey, man, I ran into some guys at a gas station, whatever, however I said it. And that's how I got your number. I mean, there's there's plenty of things you can say that could be completely legit. Right.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And he goes, Scott, I ain't gonna lie to you. He said, I had a band set up, but the singer just got locked up. And I don't know what I'm gonna do for music now. And that was my opportunity. I said, oh, did I happen to tell you that I'm a musician and a singer? And he said, no. And I go, well, I am.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I thought about not doing it. But let's just say there were 30 people or more in that field on that property. I would have been the only person that wasn't a member of the clan not getting naturalized if I'd have said no. So I'm like, well. if I'm trying to ingratiate myself and he's already offered it to me, I might as well do it. But I really wasn't sure. I mean, I don't know why I wasn't sure.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
If you look at the word itself, I'm being naturalized, but it just wasn't clicking for whatever reason, probably because I was thinking about a bunch of other stuff, uh, like making sure I didn't have any songs in my set list that were anybody of color, you know, I don't want to flip the page and sing Otis Redding or Ray Charles. And they'll be like, what? And I was like, what? I mean, I'm sorry.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
They were saying they weren't white supremacists, they were white separatists, because it doesn't sound as bad as white supremacy. A separatist is like, look, it's not that we hate people of color, we just want our own thing. You can be on the other side of that tree line and you can have that field, but this is our field. We want to be separated. No race mixing.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
It's awkward. Like I walk into a bar and I don't know anybody. That's different. I pull into a gate, into a fenced in field in the middle of nowhere in the middle of Alabama. Yeah, I mean, hey guys, how's it going?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Yeah, the pendulum started swinging, even from headquarters. We started getting more bodies. They started letting us, you know, instead of five agents working international terrorism and only one working DT, well, then they're like, OK, we're going to give you three bodies working domestic terrorism.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
So reporting had come in about this guy, Benji, who had showed up and gotten naturalized at a Klan rally and becoming a member. Basically, he was saying such radical stuff that it was, you know, setting them off. They're like, hey, some people need to look at this guy. He's not right in the head. He's planning on doing some pretty bad stuff.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
So the idea is that Benji has been... saying some dangerous things, like he's showing pictures of synagogues and saying we need to protect the white race and kill and stuff. But again, that's not illegal here, right? That's freedom of speech. But are you planning on doing that? There are things you can get for harassment and stuff if the verbiage is bad enough, but...
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I am being introduced as somebody who has been around the white supremacy movement for a long time, possibly Aryan Nation, something like that. And I can get stuff, whether that be explosives, guns, or whatever. That's kind of what was painted.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
He comes out and gets in the car. Well, I see he's got some prison tats. I see he's got some white supremacy tattoos. He gets in the car and he starts rolling a joint in the back of my car. And I'm looking in the rear view mirror and I'm like, I just ad-libbed it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Because he was getting ready to fire it up in the car. Well, I know weed's not that big of a deal now, but it was still illegal in South Carolina at that time. Plus, I don't want him messed up. I want him kind of clear-headed. I don't want you to be all jacked up when you're telling me. I want to know what you want. Are you planning on doing something bad? What are you doing?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I'm passing a shitload of cops. So I don't know where you're carrying that shit, but I can't be caught with it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And I go, man, you don't even know who I am. You have no idea what I've done. You don't even know what's in the trunk of my car. And I said, but I've made it this far by not being stupid.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I said, so if I get pulled over and I get hemmed up because you want to smoke a joint in my car, it's not going to be a good day, man. And I think he ate it. I can't remember. I mean, I think, yeah, I think he ate it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And I'm like, is he puking because he's nervous? Is he puking because his car's sick? Is he puking because he ate the weed and it's not sitting right? I don't know. But we go into the hotel room and this is where the, I wanna say the sausage, this is how the sausage is made.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
That sounds stupid, but this is where you're trying to use your skillset and your craft and say, look, what is this guy planning on doing? His big thing was, is he's like, man, I've got the heart. I'm just not smart enough. I need somebody to give me some guidance. And he wanted to do, this is his words, where he wanted to do something in the style of Dylann Roof, but on a grander scale.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
The way he explained it is that he had basically hate in his heart for anybody that's not white. He said that he was a felon, that he had gotten off of parole, but on his license it shows that he's a convicted felon, and he said he couldn't get a job anywhere. then it kind of makes you say, okay, you couldn't get a job at the store. So now you're going to go shoot up a synagogue.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
That's a, that's a stretch. I mean, maybe we should find you another job. I mean, I'm sure there's a landscaping crew somewhere that could use somebody.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
You know, from the best I could tell getting to know him, um, in those conversations. He was kind of brought into the white supremacy movement in prison, which is common, especially state prisons. And I guess when he went to that rally with the KKK and he got naturalized, man, he was just all in. He's like, yeah, but he's carrying it to the next level.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
He's like, we need to kill non-whites, you know. And it's tough in that situation as an undercover because I can't put words in his mouth. That would be entrapment, you know. So I'm like, hey, whatever. it kind of got uncomfortable because it was going on so long. At least I remember feeling uncomfortable because I'm like, dude, this is a long meeting.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
So I'm talking to Jack and, you know, I'm just learning. I'm trying to learn, you know, teach me kind of thing because most guys like to talk a lot.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I'm like, at what point, you know, what do you want to do? I got the heart. I mean, I want to do something.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
If I showed you a picture of the Columbine kids before Columbine happened, what would you say? If you just saw those two skinny kids with a trench coat on and dressed all goth, what if I showed you a picture of the Aurora shooter? Orange and yellow hair. What if I showed you a picture of Dylann Roof?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
with a bowl haircut, probably about 140 pounds soaking wet, but he's got on a Gold's Gym tank top holding a rebel flag and a pistol. Most people are probably gonna look and go, oh, what a, you know, nerd, idiot, whatever, dweeb, they can't, but look, they all killed people. Some of them killed a lot of people.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Well, he already said he was a felon. He already said that he had done prison time and he was out on parole. And it was in that county that he was planning on killing somebody or multiple people. And I kind of made the comment something to the effect of, hey, wouldn't you be kind of worried because you're known here?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
He basically told me, hey, I was thinking about what you said. I like that. You're right. I am too known here. I'm going to look at some places farther out, which means now we got some time. And he said, but between now and then, you think you could give me a $40,000?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
This is UC 3415. It is approximately 11.14 a.m., February 15, 2017.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I'm going to Conway, South Carolina to pick up Benji McDowell.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I will be delivering a .40 caliber handgun to him that he has requested.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
as we're walking out to the SUV, which was strategically placed to be, you know, tactical advantages for the arresting.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
They came, surrounded, boom. Like, they just jumped out and they arrested me too, slammed my head off the side of the car. Get him behind your back. It sounded bad. It didn't feel that bad, but it sounded bad. It was like, bam! And I was like, dadgum, man. Don't y'all know I'm undercover?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And he told them... He was glad that the FBI got him because he was seriously getting ready to do something bad. So if there was any doubt whether or not he was capable or really thinking about it, they said, he said, no, I was getting ready to do something like legit. I was getting ready to go do it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I said, oh, so we're going to have a cross burning? And he's like, now, Scott, it's not a cross burning. That'd be sacrilegious. It's a cross lighting. And I went, ah, well, I don't get it. And he's like, it signifies the light of Jesus Christ coming into the world and driving the darkness out.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
One of us said, well, what if there's kids there? And Helter Skelter, I remember playing his day, he says, I don't have a problem killing comic kids. I'm like, all right, keep talking. I mean, the recording's rolling, right?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
What they do is they, at least this clan group, you wrap burlap all the way around every part of that cross. And it's propped up on like logs or something. And then you take metal wire and you put it around that burlap so it'll stay on there. Then you soak that burlap in diesel fuel. I learned that diesel fuel is called Clan Cologne, and then I found out personally why.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
There's no way for you to stay on that cross-up and not get diesel fuel all over you.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
He goes, look, we're having a naturalization tonight. It ain't no big deal to me. If you want to go ahead and get naturalized, that's fine. And I'm like, all right, cool. And then I wait until a bunch of people walk off, and I'm like, hey, what is a naturalization? I mean, what am I agreeing to do here? Am I going to end up tarred and feathered out here? Am I going to end up naked, you know?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And then we get to the naturalization part. They get us in a line, all the people being naturalized, men and women, and they blindfold you. They'll walk you up blindfolded and you put your right hand on the right shoulder of the person in front of you. They're like, do not remove your right hand from the shoulder. This signifies the bond of brotherhood. Do not break the chain.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Do not break the chain. So I'm listening, and they're walking us around, and the guy in front of me is an older guy with a bad leg, and we're on a hill, so I pretty much had to hold him up the whole time. And, you know, they start reading. Some of it sounded biblical or historical. Some of it gets a little comical because they lose their place or mispronounce a word, and...
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I hear the guy walking closer, but he's saying, hey, raise your right hand, raise your right hand, raise your right hand. And I'm not raising my right hand because I don't know if you guys ever played the game Simon Says growing up, but I'm like, Simon didn't say raise your hand. So I'm thinking, I'm not breaking the chain. I am not breaking the chain.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And the voice gets loud and gets right next to my ear. And he says, raise your right hand. And I said... I said, out the side of my mouth, I said, he said, don't break the chain. And the guy's like, oh, you can raise your right hand. So I raised my right hand. We say some quotes. And it's a lot like being sworn in, getting naturalized as an American citizen.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
But it's all for the Klan and for the white race.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
and I see Jack standing there with a green robe on, and he's got a sword, and he basically knights you. He says something, and I'm still like, I'm like, what is going, what is this, you know? He knights me, basically, and then they're like, welcome, you know, love you, brother, and this, that, and the other, and I'm like, okay, and now I'm walking across the field.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And I'm walking and I'm thinking and I'm rehashing everything in my head that had just taken place. And I'm going, naturalization. They said this. I raised my right hand. I said this. Ignited me. They hug you. And as I'm walking, I go, I think I just joined the damn clan. And then I thought and I went, I did. I just joined the clan.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
It's UC 3415. It is 4-21-2017. It's approximately 4.30 p.m. Central Time. I'm in Alabama. I will be heading to the United Clans of America headquarters
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Maynardville, Tennessee, also the birthplace of Quentin Tarantino. And if you watch all the Quentin Tarantino's movies, in every one of them, he has a reference to something in Tennessee. And here's your focal point, the Rocky Top gas station. You can rent your movies, buy your beer, you know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I hear myself getting more country as I'm driving up here talking because I'm remembering my conversations. I can hear myself getting more, more backwoods.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I had been in... the division for roughly six months. And I switched over to the White Collar Public Corruption Squad, which really wasn't my forte, I guess. But probably like the first week on the squad, I went with a task force officer for the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation to go meet this source that they had developed.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
This county is rural, and a lot of times my cover team, they wouldn't be in here driving around because people would say, hey, the feds are here kind of thing.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I mean, listen, a lot of the 51 we locked up were wreaking havoc on the community. So when you're saying some of these characters sound sad, it's still, I come from... local law enforcement, it may not be the biggest drug case in the state, but am I making an impact at least in this community? Are we cleaning up stuff and making this community better?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And if the answer's yes, then yeah, we're doing our job, you know?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Okay, let's figure this out. There are no markings, no balloons, no nothing that Jack said would be there.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, I could be a truck driver. I could be. I'm not a Wall Street person. I tried. They were like, nope. I'm like, all right, fine. I guess I'll go get hired to kill somebody.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
You know, I'm a... You could be a convert, though.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
Boy, that does not paint me in a good light, does it?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I'm basically saying you grew up with some... Yes, I did grow up in the Southeast. I did see racism. I was kind of blind to a lot of it growing up because it's just the way I grew up. I didn't even realize. My first seven years, I went to a private school. And it wasn't that it was whites only. That's definitely not it. It was a Christian school.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I got lost. I drive and then all of a sudden you lose cell signal. I don't see no guards.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
But it wasn't public, and there was no black kids there. And when I, like eighth grade, when I went to my first public school, I didn't understand what people were saying because I'd never been exposed to it. Now, that's not me knocking anybody. It's just different dialects.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I mean, you can go from one city group in this state and go to another state, and they're using different words and everything. There's about to be a saying that you say for, I don't know, 20-something years, and then you're talking to a good buddy who happens to be a black man, and you say the saying, and he's like, what'd you just say?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
And I went, oh, well, it's something I grew up, and I never even listened to the words. You're like, oh, I'm so sorry.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
I don't see cars. I don't see flags. 868, so I passed it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 5: Klan Kologne
They're always infighting. They never stay together. It's like, you know, hey, let's just say we're the Klan of Tennessee. Well, then at a rally, we get in an argument. Well, you know what? I'm going to be the Klan of East Tennessee. And then two months later, we get in an argument. Well, I'm going to be the Klan of East Tennessee, Knox County.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Introducing White Hot Hate Season 2: Agent Pale Horse
Everything you see is like clicks, like click, click time dilation. You can feel your heart beating. You get a little sweaty. Your hamstrings get weak. Trying to figure out, hey, is this it? Am I going to die right now?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Introducing White Hot Hate Season 2: Agent Pale Horse
They came, surrounded, boom. They just jumped out and they arrested me too, slammed my head off the side of the car. And I was like, dadgum, man. Don't y'all know I'm undercover?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Introducing White Hot Hate Season 2: Agent Pale Horse
Am I going to say that this is the worst threat in the world and that Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow? No. But are these people capable of being violent? And is it a movement that has been growing? Yes. Yes, it has.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Introducing White Hot Hate Season 2: Agent Pale Horse
He's like, man, I've got heart. I've got the heart. And he wanted to do something in the style of Dylann Roof, but on a grander scale.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Introducing White Hot Hate Season 2: Agent Pale Horse
I can't just walk over there into a sea of testosterone and leather and say, hey, you guys ride?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Now, did I sleep that night? Shit, man, maybe an hour. There's so much emotion and adrenaline going through you, you know, it's just like I barely slept. And then I get up the next day, and I'm hoping they show up. I'm hoping I pass the test. Are we doing this or are we not doing it? And they all show up.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And I go, okay, so here's how it's going to go down. We're going to go to the West Gate Mall. And immediately, you know, the hem hawing starts and Chocolate Scott's like, oh, man, that's like two minutes from my house. I could have slept another hour. And then Joe Dogs, he says, I swear to God, you guys are the laziest bunch of criminals I've ever met in my entire life.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
plan was if cops are seen or anything suspicious is heard doors go down trucks pull apart from each other we sit and wait there's a hotel by the west gate mall and there's only three entrances three ways in and out to get to that hotel so it made it easy three choke points to watch they head over to a parking lot across the street from the mall and take their places
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
We were sitting there on surveillance, and I remember Chocolate Scott calls out, and he's like, hey, he basically uses the, he's cop verbiage. He's like, hey, you got one coming to you, tented, occupied two times. And I was like, I turned to Scott Town, and I'm like, what the hell did he just say? And he's like, what'd I go, occupied two times? I said, that bitch been watching too many cop shows.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
When you're becoming an undercover, you got to let the cop shit go. You can't be talking like a cop.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
They were better on surveillance than a lot of people I've trained.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Joe Dawgs insisted on being on the truck. I want to be in there. I want to be in there. I'm like, okay, all right. So you got asthma. I don't know how much you can pick up and move shit.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And again, this is like 2006-ish, 2007-ish. So weed was not near as legal as it is now. And boy, it reeked too. You could smell it when the truck would drive by.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
That Thursday night, I sleep maybe a couple of hours. And then Friday, I get up and I'm back on. I get on a flight to fly home to McAllen. I drive for like 15, 20 minutes to the house, walk straight in, brush my teeth, change my shirt. And my wife and my daughters and my mother-in-law are ready.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Hey, is this it? Am I going to die right now? Am I just getting ready to take an ass-whipping? I don't know what's going to happen. Are they going to find it? If they find it, I mean, what's going to happen? He did ask me, you know, hey, am I going to find anything, like some naked pictures of my old lady, right? And he's, like, laughing because I'm supposed to be his buddy. He's like, ha, ha, ha.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
So I show up and I'm Santa Claus. Here I am literally a couple of days earlier, naked in a basement at gunpoint. And, you know, ho effing ho, right?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Well, we would get in these arguments because my wife hated going to the doctor because as a protective mother, she's like, it's a virus. I'm going to take our kid. We're going to sit in a waiting room for three plus hours or more with a bunch of sick kids, exposing our kids to more. And after a whole day, they're going to go, oh, it's just a virus.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
But my point was, we'll go make sure they're taking the money out of my damn check anyway. We got a health plan. Go. So that conversation had happened more than once.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I was with another agent interviewing somebody on something pretty serious and it was a pretty break. I can't remember the case, but it was it was a good interview and we were getting what we needed. You know, this is where I'm working the magic, you know. And I answered the phone and I said, have you taken her to the doctor? And she said, no.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And I gave a sigh, an exhale, like a... Now, I'm doing that because I'm looking at the person across from me and thinking, I'm going to have to cut this interview. What she hears is... I'm extremely pissed off and here we go again. And I don't know if there was yelling, but she hung up. So I'm like, okay, well, let's finish this interview and I'm going home.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Sometimes I don't realize that I'm talking with a super deep, stern voice and that my eyebrows are cocked. And I don't realize that. And I'm not as mad as you think I am, or I may not be mad at all. But either way. We hit that spiral and it just kept getting worse and worse. And I remember, I would never lay my hands on her or do anything like that, but I kicked an ottoman.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
It was on the floor and I was like, I can't, bam, I kicked the ottoman. It flies across the room, hits the drywall and punches a big ass hole in it. And I'm like, damn, I'm gonna have to fix that. You know, that's what I'm thinking. And she gets up, goes into the bathroom and shuts the door and locks it with our girl.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
She said, I called 911. She goes, but I hung up. And I said, it doesn't matter. I'm a damn cop. You call 911 in the United States and you hang up, they're going to try to call you back. If you don't answer, somebody's coming. A uniformed cop's coming. So I called my boss and he said, I'm just eating lunch.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I said, well, you might want to wrap it up and get over to my house because McAllen PD is on their way, I'm pretty sure.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
No reports were filed or anything like that, but Safeguard was notified, and they said you can't go back on an undercover until you come here to get assessed.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Yeah. Well, it would break my heart if I thought she was that scared of me.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
But then, I pass. And he hands me everything. So we go right back into business. And then I'll make a joke. So I'm having that adrenaline dump. Now my hamstrings are starting to come back under me, but I'm a talker, and I'm talking nervously.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
One of the tests was, or one of the assessments, is open-ended sentences. So it's literally like, men are, you complete the sentence. Women are, you complete it. My mother is, my father is, my badge and my gun are, and... One of them was the last time I relaxed, I. And I literally went blank. I had nothing. Like I couldn't think of anything that I did that was relaxing.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And I'm sitting here going, I go, well, working out. And I go, nah, working out is a way of life. I mean, does it release endorphins? Does it make me feel better? Yeah, but I'm not working out to Yanni. I'm not in some namaste, you know. You know, I'm throwing iron around and screaming and punching bags and, you know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
We're just going where the case will take you. You know, I'm getting introduced to more people. I'm getting introduced to higher-ranking people. I'm getting more exposure. So you might get new targets.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
He said, how about we get together, we put it all on a big table. Boston, don't take your case down yet. Scott, you come to Florida and patch under Hillbilly.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I said, hell yeah. Now let's patch. I'm like, yeah, man, let's go. Let's go. I had been infatuated with the, I mean, I was a biker. I am a biker. I mean, that was my goal. I mean, that was like a kid in a candy store, you know? You let me run free, a kid run free in Toys R Us, get anything you want, you know? But what I didn't realize is that I was already shutting down.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I wake up one of those mornings and I mean, you can still hear the eggs and whiskey sloshing in your belly. I'm feeling fat and out of shape. I'm like, I'm going to go ahead and get some kind of a workout in. In the hotel room, man, I'm doing mountain climbers. I'm doing pushups. I'm doing body squats. I'm doing burpees. And then I come up for air and there's not any. And I'm going...
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
My belly's all bloated. I'm like, what the hell's going on? And I forgot all about combat breathing. I forgot all about breathing in a paper bag to regulate your oxygen versus carbon dioxide. And my hair follicles are tingling, shaking. And, you know, I'm pouring sweat. Every pore in my body is opening. And I had a panic attack.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And I opened the door and I got a towel wrapped around me, but I'm as white as the towel and my lips are all pursed.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And he looks at me and with his Hispanic accent, he goes, are you okay, my friend? And I'm like, I don't think so. So he comes in. I know I laugh about it now, but I was scared, right?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And we're talking and he's like, he's been around a long time and was very wise to things that can happen to undercovers. And he starts going through a litany of things. It's this list. He's like, well, you know, sometimes We get stressed because we don't know when the case is going to end. And I'm like, okay, okay, okay.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Sometimes we get stressed because we know the case is going to end, and they're getting ready to find out that you've been lying to them this whole time. Oh, okay, okay. Sometimes, and he starts saying all this shit. And he goes, is it any of that? And I said, well, it is now, damn it. I said, I wouldn't even. I said, none of that was in my head, but now it is. I shit you out. It's all of that.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Did I stop? Did I say, man, something's not right. I need to go home. We need to stop this operation. No. I took an hour nap. I got up feeling shell-shocked. And I'm like, okay, let's go back out.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And for five days, I slept over 16 hours a day. That first two days, I probably could have slept close to 20. Who knows? By that Friday, I was slightly worried. I knew that I wasn't depressed because I know what that feels like. I knew I wasn't sick. I know what that feels like. And that Friday morning, I was burning sick leave and I got a call from a buddy of mine.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
His first thing he said to me was, is how are you doing country? And I said, not too good. And he said, what are you talking about? So we talked for an hour. I just walked around my pool outside, sweating my ass off, telling him everything that had happened. And he basically let me talk myself into, Scott, you need to call Safeguard.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And I get in there for the counselor talk. He sits me down and I am ready for all these questions. I'm ready. I got answers for everything because I got this. I'm back. I'm fine. It was just a bump in the road. And he looks at me and he says, man, we've known each other for what, like 10 plus years? I was like, yeah. He said, let's do something different. He goes, I want to change.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I want to change roles. I want you to pretend that you're me and I'm you. And we're here right now with everything that's happened. And I said, uh-huh. And he says, what would you tell me? And that threw me off. I looked at him and I was thinking in my head, you son of a bitch. And I leaned down. I looked down to the ground.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I took a deep breath and I said, I would tell you that you need to take a break and that you should have taken one a long time ago.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And he comes walking in with Joe Pistone. Joe walks right up and sits directly to my right, staring at me. And I'm like, I said, well, class, speaking of undercover stressors, why don't y'all say hello to Mr. Joe Pistone, a.k.a. Donnie Brasco.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
You know, I'm sitting here getting butterflies teaching it because I'm talking about something that's still pretty fresh.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Pistone's in line, and I remember thinking, why is he in line? And then he comes up, and when he gets to me, he gives me a little kiss on the cheek, a little Italian mafia slap, you know? And he's like, I'm glad you're okay, kid. And then he walks off, and I'm just like... I don't want to say that's what I was striving for, because that's not what you want to strive for.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Yeah, it was pretty, for me, it was pretty freaking awesome. Not that I went through all that stuff. It's just that, you know, I was jumping stone.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And now I'm like, yeah, give me another Jack and Coke. Yeah, give me another Jack and Coke. And they're not even touching me because my adrenaline is so jacked up. You know, give me another one. Give me another one. But then big Scotty shows up, which he knew they were going to take me in the basement, too.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
They knew that I'd gotten married and they knew that I had kids with this woman, or at least that's what the story was. And I told him, I said, look, I'm getting a divorce. Her family's in El Paso, which is like way the other way. And I said, I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning if I don't get her and my kids set up.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I said, but as soon as that shit's done, I'm fucking coming up to Massachusetts. I'm sick of this hot fucking place. So we did it that way.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And it's Scott Town. And here's the closest guy. This is the closest friendship that I've made over this two years in that targeted group. And he's all raspy voice. He's like, hey, hey, Tex. I don't know what happened. He goes, I just got a call that your truck drivers, they got locked up. He goes, I don't know what's going on. And I said, I don't know anything about it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
He goes, well, OK, I'm going to get up. I'm going to get cleaned up. I'm going to find out what the fuck's going on and I'm going to call you back and let you know. And I said, okay, man. Our last words together was he chirps and he says, I love you, brother. And I chirped back and I said, I love you too. And then I hung up the phone.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Well, that was it. That was the end of the outlaw case.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I've talked about it so much now that, you know, and time has passed. But, I mean, you know, that was nostalgic, euphoric. I don't know, pick one. It's, uh... I mean, that was the longest, at that point, longest deep undercover I'd done. It was probably the closest bonds I'd ever made.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
I said, oh, so we're going to have a cross burning? And he's like, now, Scott, it's not a cross burning. That'd be sacrilegious. It's a cross lighting.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
But me, Scott, and Joe Dawgs go out to a bar, and essentially I get pissed.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Yeah, I pissed off. I remember sitting there going, you know what? I tell you what, you guys show up tomorrow when we meet in the parking lot, I'm going to strip all you sons of bitches. How's that? Cold as hell outside. You're going to all be naked in the damn parking lot. Tex, you need to calm down, man. You know, hey, man, this happens.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And I'll tell you, as the case went on, we found out they've taken women down there and put blades against their throat to find out if they're a source. That's the seller. That's what they do down there.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
She said, I got this overwhelming feeling of like fear. And I just started praying for you. And Michelle, I matched it up. I'm not making it up. I matched it up. That's when I was in the basement being stripped at gunpoint.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
A typical month might go like this. This full weekend, three day, four day weekend, I'm undercover in Oklahoma. I come home. I'm putting together all that stuff, typing it up. Then I go and I'll be a case agent. And then I take off to Massachusetts and I'm undercover for the outlaws. I come back.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And because I'm anal and try to be a professional, I would go through all the recordings and end up typing these long reports with accurate verbatim statements in them that were pertinent to the case. And then maybe the last week, I find out that the training coordinator for the division has set up that whole week we're doing firearms and tactical training.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And then in between all that, we as a SWAT team might get called out two or three times.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
So I would come home just beat. And I'm like, I'm so happy to see my family and, you know, get caught up on what I missed and how things are going. And, but I was just beat. And I mean, I wanted a home cooked meal. I was tired of going through drive-thrus. I was tired of eating out. And to me at that point, hamburger helper would have been a home cooked meal.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And I would come home sometimes and it may be like a Thursday night or something or a Friday. And I would get there and my wife, she'd say, guess what, honey? And I'd go, what? She goes, I got a babysitter so we can go out tonight. And I'd go, oh, damn it. My liver's going, no. And I'm like, oh, man, you know, let's go have some drinks. I've missed you. Let's have some quality time.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And I'm like, oh, but I cowboy up and try to make it, you know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
At the end of the day, I would most likely pour myself a Jack and Coke. And then I would go into my oldest daughter's room first. And then I would rock her to sleep. But as I'm rocking her, I would always hum.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
elvis song why i have no idea but it was one of two songs i would either always hum are you launching the night by elvis or the american trilogy by elvis and i would hum those until she fell asleep and then i would go into my youngest daughter's room and she i would do sometimes i would do this thing on them where i would just kind of like you know just
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
Not a massage, but like, you know, you just rub your finger very lightly across the eyebrow and across the forehead and then down their face. And I would count it. It'd be like one, two, and I'd go through their hair and over their ears and maybe tickle the lip and come back up. So that was the trick.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
But my youngest daughter, I think she was asleep and she'd tap me and she'd go, Daddy, do the twick, do the twick. Because she's still learning how to speak.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
And it does get harder. The deeper you go and the longer you are, you know, because, you know, he's got kids that are the same age as my kids. And instead of being at home with my youngest daughter, rocking her to sleep or doing the twick, she's there without me, and I'm holding his daughter. And I'm bouncing her on my lap.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
and uh you know i'm walking in and of course everybody's like you know he's like hey what's going on everybody's like hey he's big t big scotty hey what's going on you know and they're doing this they turn to me and i'd go yeah they go who are you and i go i'm i'm just his bitch i'm just following him today you know nothing to look at here you know that's me i did like the self-deprecating humor the tommy boy chris farley type stuff and uh
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
You know, we'd go in there and you'd start meeting more people and hanging out, building trust, you know, getting to know people.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend
You sit there and you go, man, this dude's got four daughters. He said he almost went to jail, 25 to life one time. He paid a bunch of money to get out of it. And I'm like... Why are you doing this? Why do you want to be a part of this big deal? I mean, in other words, I'm not forcing you.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
So I pick up on quirks like that.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
He'd be trying to interject something. And if nobody paid attention to him, he'd be like, whatever, whatever. I'm talking. Nobody's listening.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
So clothesline, his name was Brian De La Vega, by the way. He usually kept a short cropped haircut. He had sideburns tattooed on his face. Not solid. It was more like a like a design, but where sideburns would be. And of course, tatted everywhere else.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Clothesline, very unpredictable. You know, he had one of the best lines that I'd heard. He said he was allergic to Jack Daniels. Because I was like, hey, you want a Jack and Coke? Because he just got out of jail or something. And I said, hey, you want a Jack and Coke? He goes, no, I'm allergic to Jack Daniels. Every time I drink it, I break out in cuffs.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Apparently it makes him do stupid stuff and he ends up in jail. So I laughed. I was like, that's funny, man.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Joe Dogs, we got along pretty good. I guess character-wise, I mean, he liked to party. Yeah. I'll tell you what, he used to drive me crazy because he was a terrible businessman. And I mean, atrocious. If you're a drug dealer, usually you're not. Most of the times, they're not great business people.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
As I'm getting closer to the exit door, I'm hearing all this yelling and screaming, getting louder and louder. And I walk out, and man, they're fighting this guy, and he's got like four or five friends with him.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
If you listen to the recording, he's, you know, I partake in the fight, but I'm articulating. I'm doing it to a point where I can articulate that I'm actually helping somebody. I'm not punching somebody. I'm picking them up and throwing them back to the truck. Hey, back the F up, back the F up.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
What the fuck are you swinging at?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
But... As they're walking back to the truck, you know, Joe dogs after he hits his inhaler, which I'm not knocking because sometimes I have to use one too. But he's like, I just smashed all of you. I just smashed all five of you by myself.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And I'm like, I'm pretty sure me and Scott are standing here. I'm pretty sure we have. I'm pretty sure Scott whipped more tails than you did.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
If you ranked the three tightest relationships that I had during that two years with possible targets, uh, Scott town's number one, we were tight, like scary tight. Like it was, it was scary how, how similar we were. I mean, I could complete his sentences. He could complete mine, you know, was it love? I don't know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
I had a lot more in common with Scott Towne than I had with a lot of the FBI agents and task force officers I was working with, right? So who would I bond with better, you know? Some people sit there and go, look at these guys, grown men with tattoos. Were they in their 30s wearing Harley shirts and riding motorcycles? Who the hell does that?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And I'm thinking me and every damn friend I got, you know? Is that bad? I didn't know, you know? But it gets tough. And I remember sitting there in his kitchen And I'm thinking, well, man, he likes to drink. I like to drink. He likes to fight. I like to fight. He loves to lift weights. I love to lift weights. He looks out for me, I look out for him. You know, he's got a daughter, I got a daughter.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
All this stuff's going through your head.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
I get calls from the outlaws. I get calls from Scott T. Hey, brother, how you doing? I just want to check on you. See how you're doing. I'm doing good, man. You know, he respected me and I, you know, I respected him. I trusted him. I mean, and I say that I'm not saying that lightly.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And I remember looking up at his refrigerator. He had stickers and stuff all over it, you know, like magnets and whatever. I'm not saying you got to be a believer, but there's a bracelet you always see Christians wearing, you know, what would Jesus do? WWJD. And I remember looking up on his refrigerator and I saw WWSD and I looked at it and I said, what would Satan do?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And I went, oh yeah, I remember who I am. I'm good now.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Joe Dog says, hey, come on over to the clubhouse. But it was the night they had church. And I'm not allowed in church because I'm not a patch member.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
I get to the clubhouse. And I go inside, and the music's blaring. They pour me a Jack and Coke, you know, door shuts.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
I was cracking jokes like I normally do. What I didn't see is that when my head would turn away, their laughter would stop. and clothesline my boy at this point says hey tex can i talk to you for a minute and i said yeah well i've been in that clubhouse i don't know 20 times who knows but there's one door i've never been in and this was the door
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
So he opens it and they basically carry me down to a cellar. It's not a basement. I couldn't even stand up straight. And I could probably touch the wall on both sides. Well, Black Scott and clothesline follow me down there. Listen. It's a no shit moment. It's an adrenaline dump. If you've been in a car wreck or anything that's traumatic to you, this is what happens in an adrenaline dump.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Time slows down. It could be 30 seconds, but it feels like an hour. And your auditory, you get auditory exclusion. Everything you hear and start sounding like you're underwater is going, whoa, whoa, whoa. Everything you see is like clicks, like click, click time dilation. You can feel your heart beating. You get a little sweaty. Your hamstrings get weak.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
So we're going down to this little tight place, and I start realizing this is not good. My spotty senses were going off, or the Holy Spirit, or whatever you want to call it. And at this point, they've brandished their weapons. Black Scots on the stairs, blocking me.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And he repeats it, your full name, your date of birth, your address, and he goes, I need you to take off all your clothes. Here's the problem. I was wired and I was wired pretty heavily. It was hidden, right? More than one device hidden, but it wasn't like attached to my skin or shoved in crevices somewhere. But basically I take my jacket off, I take my shirt off, take my boots off.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
I started to write my name, Scott Calloway, and because of the adrenaline dump, I forgot my middle name. And I'm like, dude, why are you? Again, this feels like it's like five, 25 minutes. I don't know. But it's really seconds, maybe a minute. But. I'm trying to remember my middle name and I can't remember it. And I'm like, I'm just rushing through. I'm like a Rolodex in my brain.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
I'm like, okay, Scott So-and-so Callaway. Nope, that was the middle name of my first undercover alias I ever made. How about this one? Nope, that was somebody else. Nope, that was, and I'm going, what the? You can hear my voice has changed. I'm slightly higher. My throat's tighter. And I said. And what else do you need?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
I don't know. To right now? Uh... And then I hear them yell up to the probate.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Hey, ask probate what else he needs for that website.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And the whole time, though, I'm trying to figure out how bad is this? You're supposed to be my boy. I know your baseline. I know you when you're upset. I know you when you're calm. I know you when you're sad. And he starts going through my clothing. And you can hear me kind of give it. I didn't even, again, I don't know how to do it, but you can hear me go.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
I had this just, I don't know, I want to say crush, but this thing about being an undercover biker, because I mean, I was a biker, I rode. I mean, like I can show you a picture of all the guys or most of the guys in my narcotics squad at the sheriff's office. And if I showed you that picture of us at bike week, you'd think we were all like one percenters.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And I mean, I'm comfortable in that environment. I bounced in strip clubs. And even when I wasn't bouncing, I would go back and visit as a single young cop. I'd go back and hang out with all my buddies. I mean, that's just my mentality. It's my skill set, right? You're not going to take me and put me in a vegan or an eco... I'm not going to infiltrate Elf or Alf, probably.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
They can smell the beef on me, you know?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Spanky. They said, man, this dude loves attention.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
They said, man, this dude, he loves to be the center of attention. He loves to be surrounded by big guys. You know, that's my guy. That's my guy. Big muscle guys, right?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
So I went there a couple of times by myself. I guess the cover team was outside, but I wasn't really undercover. I'd go in and I'd get, you know, grab me a drink. I'd go sit down at a table. Well, then somebody's going to come by. I went during the day shift, you know, where the reputable dancers work because it's eight to five.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
No, it's the lunch. It's the manual lunch crowd. Yeah. Go in there and get your car washed and all that stuff.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
No, they do it. They did it all over the place. It'd be like, hey, a drive-thru car wash, and it's strippers. And you literally sit in your car, and they're washing your car.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
What I'm doing is I'm building my bona fides. I am creating a legend here to where I'm getting to know people. They're getting to know me. So what I did is I got a couple of drinks. I go sit down and somebody comes by and they go, hey, would you want some company? Yeah, sure. Well, then it's I don't say it's all about greed, but basically, if it was a twenty dollar dance, I'd pay 40 bucks.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Next thing you know, you've got more people at your table.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
When they take the back bar, you see this sea of black leather. And one thing was that they did say, at least the way I remember this, they told me that they couldn't wear their colors, their cuts, you know, their outlaw leather vests. And a lot of clubs do that. They go, hey, man, all bikers welcome, no colors, because all it does is start problems.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
So I thought, hey, man, this will be pretty straightforward. I'm a guy from out of town. who likes to ride and has tattoos, and I'm sitting here watching half-naked women dance, and I love rock and roll, and here we are, and you're the same thing. We're just from different parts. But when they came in and they had their colors on, well, that changed my approach.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
So now I'm like, well, I can't just walk over there into a sea of testosterone and leather and say, hey, you guys ride?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
Let me ask you boys something. Y'all like to ride? Get out of here.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
It doesn't take long. I could see that Spanky was looking, and I'm like, okay, it's kind of going good. And eventually he yells across the bar to me, like, hey, hey. And I'm like, hey. And he's like, yeah, hey, how effing tall are you? And I made some stupid joke, some smart aleck thing back. And he's like, ah, that's hilarious. Where the eff are you from? So I told him, I'm in deep south Texas.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And he's like, hey man, don't they have some bad storms and flooding going on down there? And then I made a joke about tying my trailer off to my truck and my motorcycle so it wouldn't float away kind of thing. It's almost like dating, right? I'm playing hard to get.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
He was hot and heavy in that first six months, and then he went on like a, they said, like a Middle-Eve sabbatical. I didn't see him for a long time. The first six months, they were talking about creating an Outlaws chapter in Cape Cod, and there was already a Hells Angels chapter there. And they knew that if they set up a chapter, they needed muscle.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 3: Who’s A Rat Dot Com
And Spanky was grooming himself to be like, I guess, the president of that chapter. But he was always offering up stuff. He'd be like, we're talking right now. He's in the corner. He's going, hey, did you guys know about it? And nobody answered him. He goes, whatever, whatever. I'm talking. Nobody's listening. Whatever, whatever. So that's why, I mean, he did it all the time.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
So if you've only got two bouncers for a whole bar and there's two to three parties of bachelor parties and they got 10 to 15 people in each, what are you going to do if they all break bad? You got to start learning how to talk. You got to start learning how to... be a people person, at least in my mind, and that's what I did.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Yeah, so Barn Dominion, it's 30 by 24 or 26. And it's, I think it's 18 foot walls and the open ceiling. We got a little loft up top that's about 10 foot deep. But it's my office. It's a bar. It's a place to hang out.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I remember my first beat area, it went all the way up to the state line in North Carolina. So it was a mountainous region. So it's not like super busy with calls, but it was a great place to kind of learn, you know, You'd show up out there, and no backup. Your backup's probably 40-plus minutes away. And you show up, and there's a dude standing there with a shotgun. And, you know, somebody's shot.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
And you're like, there's a dead person laying there. And you're like, ah, well, how are things going today? Okay, good. I'm Officer Payne, you know, with the sheriff's office. Got a call on disturbance. I'm up here. Tell me what happened. Well, that's, you know, he came in here, and I shot him. All right, cool. Can you give me a statement? You know, it was already done before you got there.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
We pull up to one of these streets that's in a rough neighborhood, high drug trafficking area. And they're like, hey, man, just roll down there. We got the camera already set up. We're just going to roll you through. You got 20 bucks. You're going to buy a rock, a crack rock. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know, 280 pounds. I mean, I do not look like I smoke crack, right? You know, unless I just started.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
So, so I, uh, I pulled down the street and I roll up to the corner and man, they're coming up and, uh, and, and they're, they're like, what'd you want? What'd you want? You know? And I'm like, I rolled down the window and I, and I'm like, give me a 20. And I slide the 20 bucks through the window. Like it's, you know, like a, I don't know, like I'm putting something into the ATM or something.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
or a vending machine. And the guy gives me, I don't know, a sliver of a rock. It was probably soap for all I know. Who knows? But I was so scared. I was freaking out, man. I was like, you know. But, you know, that's how you start learning.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I'm an adrenaline junkie. It's not like I'm jumping out of planes or jumping off of buildings, but you're an adrenaline junkie. And man, that was cool. You get that, oh man, this is awesome.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I mean, really, how deep are you going to go deep undercover in your county if you've already been a cop or if when you bust people as a narcotics officer, you have to go to court and testify? I mean, there's only so many ways you can shave your facial hair and grow your hair and change your clothes and change out vehicles before they just they just know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
He looked like a bulldog. He was a former Marine, Popeye forearms with a tattoo, I'm pretty sure, of a bulldog on his forearm. If it wasn't a bulldog, it was the Marine Semper Fi and anchor, but he might've had both, I don't know. But he looked like a bulldog. We were on surveillance and I was sitting with him. And at that point, my nickname was Kingpin.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
He said, Kingpin, you know, he said, if I was a young guy like you and I was single and I had a college degree, he said, I'd apply with the FBI. And I looked at him and I said, what are you? Are you crazy? What are you smoking? I'm like, that's ridiculous. I said, I thought the FBI just did bank robberies. He said, no, son, they do everything.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
You're laying in bed and you're sweating going, wait a minute. If I put Denver first, but then I start in the Southeast, they may send me to Honolulu. I'd like to go to Honolulu. I've never been, but man, that's a long way from, you know what I mean? You start doing all this stuff. And I basically started in the Southeast and just worked my way all the way around.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
So you go up there and stand in front of everybody on orders night and you walk up and they got the map of the United States and they start putting pins where everybody's going. well, out of like 52 people in my class, man, I didn't get called to like the last five or 10 people. So I saw some people get New Orleans and I go, man, I had that high on my list.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I saw Philly and I go, well, that's closer than, you know, and I'm seeing some other things. So when I stood up, I said, I'm Scott Payne. I'm from Greenville, South Carolina. I said, my number one pick was Denver. And I said, what do I think I'm going to get? Well, It's not looking too good for the Southern guys. And I opened it up, and it was New York City. And I said, New York City.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I said, and my nickname was Big Country. And I said, Big Country going to the Big Apple.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
This is kind of what started the hooray for me wall, I guess. Of course, the base case. That's the balaclava. That's what you get, and you get the patch when you get into the base. Of course, that's Georgia, the cell I was in. So I got all my little pins here. White Pride Worldwide. There's your lightning bolts, the SS, KKK, more White Pride. That is the original Aryan Nation.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
and strategic thinking to really navigate some really really complex scenarios and do just a fantastic job and scott loved every minute of it when i went through the school i mean i would be honestly i was the last one to leave and they were like kid go to bed and i'm like i'll get the trash i mean i was eating it up i wanted as much knowledge as i could
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I was looking for anything. You know, on paper, I didn't really jump out a lot. I'm a white guy with no foreign language. Southern. Former cop. So what was my backstory? I'm a landscaper. I'm a landscaper. I'm a landscaper. Well, how many cases can you do? It's not going to carry you far. You know what I mean? So, you know, I got out and I started calling about every two weeks.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
That's always been my MO. Even when I was trying to get a job, even in high school, I'd call every two weeks. And eventually they just hire you because you're persistent, is what I found. But I would call the person over my region at headquarters, a supervisor in the undercover unit. And I'd say, hey, Scott, hey, what's going on, country?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Hey, you got anything for any white guys with no foreign language? They'd be like, oh, man, we ain't got a... Two weeks later, hey, you got anything for any rednecks?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
One night I might be a banker on a scenario. The next night I might be a biker. The next night I might be dressed in a suit at, you know, something. and you roll with it. But I started getting recruited out of there. Some of my mentors, they'd be like, hey, man, would you be interested in coming to Atlanta? I didn't just come up here to role play.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I came up here to kind of look for somebody and recruit. I'm like, absolutely. And that's how I started getting noticed.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
The group, the Klan, and stuff like that.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I sat in one chair and there's DEA, FBI, ATF, all the local agencies, task force officers, and they're just peppering me with questions. Well, how many undercovers have you done? How many biker gangs have you ever traded? None. Well, what makes you think you'd be good? Because I'm a biker. I know the undercover technique. I bounced at places where the Hells Angels frequented.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
They have helped me in many fights. I've done this, this, you know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
And he's like, hey, country, come here. I said, yes, sir. I walked in the back. He said, I just got off the phone with Mike, the undercover coordinator. And I said, oh, well, that's funny that I'm actually here when he called. And he said, yeah. He said, he just questioned me about you. And I said, okay. And he said he wanted to know if I would vouch for you.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
And he said, yeah, I think he's a good kid, this, that, and the other. And he said, and then he pinned me in a corner. And he said, would you use him on your undercover? He said, I told him, yes, I would. And he looked at me and said, so I just vouched for you. So don't fuck this up. And I said, no pressure.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
No. Compared to what happened, no.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
But man, I had to study this. And we had Klan craft class every Wednesday night. This is the mystic insignia of the Klansmen. This goes, I mean, this goes back. There's a lot of history. I mean, a lot of history. And if you look at the seal, it's actually 4Ks. The original seal had 4Ks. But yeah, I mean, they were...
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I grew up in a Christian family, Christian home. I had to work for what I got. I mean, my parents wouldn't just give me stuff, but I was the only child, which probably explains a lot, some people say.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I don't know. You never had to share nothing? I don't know.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
My mom was the brains, right? I think she just had an associate's at that point. But she was like a paralegal and all kinds of stuff. She did all the books. My dad had developed his own landscaping company. And even though he dropped out in the 10th grade, very street smart, hard worker, and great morals and values, wise on that spectrum.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
And he, at that time in South Carolina, had the third largest landscaping company. I remember when it was at its prime, we had a retail store and he probably had like two or three crews out working. And then the older I got, the more I had to do. Some people think, oh, you're spoiled because it's your dad's company.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Listen, he would leave and I'm out there on a construction site with a bunch of grown men pouring whiskey in their coffee in the morning and smoking filterless cigarettes. I figured at a very early age, I had to outwork them. So that way there wouldn't be any, oh, you're daddy's little boy kind of thing out here. And I would. They'd be taking a cigarette break and I'm like, come on, that's enough.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Let's go. Let's work.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I could flow around. I mean, I was, I've always been a people person.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
That's the Canadian, huh? Clique? Is that how you guys say it up there?
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
It's a clique here, yeah. Yeah, but that's fine. I mean, that's cool. Clique. I'll probably say it that way from now on. Actually, I could hang out with anybody. We had a smoking area in high school. I could go down there and hang out. I mean, I wasn't like a smoker-smoker, but my pack might last me a week and a half, you know? But I could go in there and hang out.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
The stoners, weed, I could hang out with those people. I was a jock, weightlifting, playing ball, and I was a musician and a singer. So kind of a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. At one point, I even made it in the beta club because I had good grades.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I had the traditional 80s mullet, but not the shaved on the side, shaved on the top, you know, party in the back mullet, but just full hair, you know, like some Farrah Fawcett bangs.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Oh, come on. I was rocking that. I was rocking it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
The chorus is, I got it bad, I got it bad, I got it bad. I'm hot for teacher.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Well, it turns out as a young, man in the 80s who had only really had stage experience at keg parties, grabbing your crotch, saying something like that at the same time was, you know, something to do to get the crowd into it. And I really didn't realize because I was inexperienced how many times I was grabbing my crotch at the talent show. And this isn't a keg party.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
This is families coming to see their kids do karate moves or families coming to see their kids play the violin. And here we are as a rock band and I'm grabbing my crotch in front of everybody. And we probably got to the second verse before they realized what was going on and they started literally closing the curtain on us and pulling the power.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Mr. Walker was the vice principal. Lloyd Walker. Shorter black guy. He just didn't like me. Maybe I was a smart-ass. I don't know. Maybe it was my look. Maybe it was who I was hanging with. And he called me into his office, and I'm like, man, I didn't grab myself that much. He actually had a tape on VCR, so he played it for me.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I probably grab my crotch every, I don't know, 30 seconds. So he starts laying into me and I'm like, well, we start talking about different cultures. And, you know, like even Michael Jackson grabs himself on stage, you know, and we start laughing. And next thing you know, we're giggling and cutting up. And that's the first time that ever happened.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
And then probably junior year in high school or senior year, word spread that somebody had, uh, basically done malicious damage to Mr. Walker's home. But they had, they not only did they like roll the trees with toilet paper, they spray painted his car. He had like a BMW, I think spray painted it, keyed it, spray painted the house. There were some bad words on there.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Some of them were, I mean, N word, something like that. And, uh, He called me into his office, and I thought, well, what did I do? And he calls me in, and he asked me if I'd be willing to help him, try to figure out who did that to his house. So I started working the circles of people, and I think it was in the gym one day. And, you know, just nonchalant.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
All right, bad gummit.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Hey, man, man, did you hear what happened to Mr. Walker? Yeah, man, that's messed up, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or, hey, man, you know, screw him. You know, he deserves it kind of thing.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
There was one guy who just, anytime the conversation would start, he'd just break eye contact. And then I started doing some research and bouncing it off of Mr. Walker, and it turns out that he did get in trouble with Mr. Walker. And I don't think they ever pinned it on him, but it was him. Because, uh... I told Mr. Walker that, not being a rat, you know. I'm not a rat or whatever.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
But, you know, it was the right thing to do. That's the real reason. I mean, you do it because it's the right thing to do. I guess that's probably my first undercover experience that I can think of, you know. I mean, I'm not pretending to be somebody else, but I am kind of covertly going into groups and trying to find out information.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I went into a pretty dark area. I would listen to basically devil worshiping type music. I had a friend introduce me into like the witchcraft, black magic, uh, Satanism kind of stuff. And I'm not proud of it at all, but any animal that was in my yard that wasn't my dog, I shot and killed and I was just mean, but I was hurting and I was doing stupid stuff. And, uh,
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Uh, we were at a party, just drinking, no, nothing else, no drugs, no psychedelics, no nothing. It was just drinking. And I remember looking and all I saw was like a watery image, uh, looking at me. And there was a demon looking at me and laughing as I was laughing and pointing at me and like giving me the finger to come here. Long fingernails. I screamed.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
Because it scared the living crap out of me. Scared the Jesus back into me. I was as white as a ghost. I was panting heavy. I was pouring sweat. I don't know how many miles it was. But I walked from that house. It was a Saturday night. I didn't sleep. And I walked to Edwards Road Baptist Church. And sat through, I think I sat through two sermons. And that was it.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
I was done with the devil worshiping.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
One day I hit a criminal justice course and I was like, man, I'm really, really fascinated by this. But when I hit those classes originally for the criminal justice course, I thought, hey, I'll be a lawyer. It didn't take me long to figure out I'd probably be a terrible lawyer. But then I started looking into law enforcement.
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
And by this time, you got to realize I'd already at that point in my life, I already realized I was a bully of bullies. That doesn't mean I'm tough. It doesn't mean I'm better than anybody else. But what it does mean is I always take up for the little guy.