Pens, Purses, and Interfaith Encounters! - Episode #8 Summary of the episode: In this episode, we dive into chapters 21-23 of Loving Your Muslim Neighbors by Timothy and Miriam Harris, where the authors explore the complexities and nuances of building meaningful relationships with Muslims. Chapter 21 highlights the importance of understanding cultural differences and the power of active listening when engaging in interfaith dialogues. Chapter 22 focuses on practical ways Christians can demonstrate Christ’s love through hospitality, showing that small acts of kindness can open doors to deeper conversations. Finally, in Chapter 23, the authors discuss the spiritual impact of prayer and perseverance, emphasizing the role of faith and patience in witnessing to our Muslim neighbors. Whether you're new to interfaith conversations or have been building relationships for years, these chapters offer valuable insights and encouragement. America, as we know it, was discovered land. The country was built as a land of the free and home of the brave. Her constitution allows all men to practice their faith freely without prejudice. Tune into this discussion with Brandon and Timothy! Meet the Guest: Timothy and Miriam speak in churches everywhere to educate, equip, and energize Christians to gain God’s heart for Muslim people and to love them. Please listen to Episode #1 of this season to learn more about Timothy and Miriam Harris. Calls to action: Please check out their website, www.lovingyourmuslimneighbor.com. You can also purchase a copy of the book from the website and follow along during this season! To connect with Timothy and Miriam Harris, email them at [email protected]. Note: This podcast is part of the Christian Podcast Community. You can click here to access more episodes and similar podcasts. Works Cited: Cover Art: Brandon Queen | Bible Translations – English Standard Version (unless stated/noted in the interview) | Quotes: authentic from the host and guest (unless stated/pointed out during the podcast) | Song: Turkish Beat - Music by: Muzaproduction from Pixabay --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/elderqueen/support --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/elderqueen/support
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The Ear, Evangelical and Reformed, Christian Podcast. Welcome to The Ear, the Evangelical and Reformed, a Christian podcast that urges you to think deeper and draws you closer to God through faith. Through powerful sermons, teaching segments, and discussions, The Ear hopes to give you a different perspective on secular topics from a Christian worldview. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Please welcome your host, Brandon Queen.
Good morning, Podcast World. Welcome back to yet another amazing episode of Loving Your Muslim Neighbor. This series is based on a book written by Timothy and Miriam Harris on their experiences while sharing the gospel among Muslim people. Thank you again for joining us, Timothy. How you doing, buddy?
Doing so great, Brandon. Just a joy to always be with you. I appreciate so much this privilege.
Yes, this is awesome. This is awesome. You know, as Christians, we should be willing to deliver the gospel just as Martin Luther was when he nailed his 95 theses to the church door of Wittenberg. The gospel, a word of God, has to go forth for all of the earth. I want you guys to hear me when I say this. The gospel is a word of God.
It is the word of the living God that has to go forth to all the earth. You know, so moving into our line of questioning, if you will, or what I like to call my line of firing. If you were a gun owner, you would know what I'm talking about. So, Timothy, you know, you you share with us last week about your trip to Jordan and how God moved during that time frame there.
But I was wanting to ask this question to you then, but I knew it had to stay within this episode. So should Christians adhere to cultural differences in order to reach the people of that land with the gospel?
Absolutely, brother. As we did allude to a little bit in the last episode, it's still important to
uh learn uh about the culture of the people you're trying to reach out to so and that would include any you know any subgroup even here in the u.s uh whether um based on their age based on their you know nowadays uh we've got so many issues with gender and so if we're going to reach people for example in the lgbtq community um we need to learn more about how they think
If we're going to reach out to atheists, well, how do they think? And so for us, we reach out to Muslims. So we want to know as much as we can, how do they think? And what are the cultural differences? And so we need to be careful that we don't adhere to anything that would be against the Bible. But on the other hand, we can adhere to some cultural differences for the sake of Christ.
As Paul mentions to the Corinthians that, you know, he became all things to all people that he might by all means save some. And so, yeah, let's find out what those cultural differences are. Let's humble ourselves. Let's do the best we can to adhere to them whenever they don't contradict with sola scriptura, with the Holy Scriptures.
Amen. So that question was born out of, I was reading chapter 19 and you titled it, Where's Your Robe? Can you explain that story to us?
Yeah. So we were, this was in March of 2010. We were working with an international church in the Middle East. And so we would go on trips there.
uh for anywhere from four to uh seven weeks at a time so again in march of 2010 we just wanted to do something uh one day and that was to go out to an animal souk a souk is just an arabic word for a marketplace and and this animal souk was a place where animals were sold so that'd be you know camels and sheep and so forth so um
We went there, we quickly found out when we arrived, this was not a tourist destination at all. Everyone that was there except for us were Middle Eastern men. There were no women whatsoever. And we just stood out like a sore thumb. I mean, especially Miriam, who went out in a short-sleeved shirt. And so... So here we are in this Muslim country. We're at this animal souk. We're walking around.
And all of a sudden, this little pickup truck, as we're talking to some Muslim men from Sudan, this little pickup truck pulled up right near us, slammed on the brakes. And the guy who was driving shouted out at Miriam, my wife in English, where is your robe? So, in other words, you are not adhering to our culture. You are not adhering to the way we do things in this part of the world.
And she just didn't know what to say. So, obviously, she wasn't dressed in a hijab, a headscarf, or an abaya. An abaya is kind of a loose-fitting, kind of like a dress or a cloak thing. And she didn't know what to say. But this is so funny, Brandon, what came out of her mouth in response to this man's, you know, shout at her. Where's your robe? She just said, I'm English.
And somehow somehow it satisfied this guy. And he gave her a thumbs up and he just speedily drove away. It was just really humorous. And so, you know, God used her response, which she doesn't even know where it came from, except, you know, the Holy Spirit had satisfied the guy.
But the bottom line in that, what we're trying to teach in that chapter is that at times we've done some foolish things when we've gone into another culture. So, for example, in this case, you know, I should have found out more of what that place was going to be like before we went there. I mean, I should have found out, hey, this is a place for men, not for women.
And I should have, you know, been more aware and Miriam should have, too, that she shouldn't have been wearing a short sleeved shirt normally in that culture. You know, it's OK in that in that country to wear a short sleeved shirt when you walk along the beach as a Westerner, but not in a place like this where it's just going to be Muslim men.
And I just think for me as a man, I didn't do a good job as a husband kind of protecting my wife. I should have known that it was a men-only kind of place and not subjected Miriam to kind of an embarrassing and maybe even a potentially difficult situation.
you know as we write in our book god graciously inspired her to say i mean i'm uh english but um but i should have taken better care of her and so the bottom line is learn what the cultural uh milieu is the atmosphere the differences of where you're going to go, even on an outing like this, which wasn't necessarily an outreach thing. It was just a fun outing.
But yeah, cultural differences are something that are very important in missions and outreach.
Yeah. Okay. That's a good explanation. I was thinking more in the line of he's asking where it's a robe, maybe to stone her to death. I know that's a little extreme, but maybe verbally stone her to death, if you will, because she wasn't adhering to the cultural norms of that land, if you will.
He was offended. I mean, yeah, it was clear that he was offended because as he shouted it, you could hear the anger in his voice. But somehow when he heard her say that she's I don't I don't even know what I'm English means. I mean, I'm from England. Does it mean I'm, you know, I'm Western? I don't know. Well, all we know is he gave her a thumbs up and spit away.
I mean, it was just, you know, the fact that he yelled it to her in English. Obviously, she wasn't from the country.
Yeah, yeah, I know. He did. He did. He shouted it to us. And he was obviously an Arab man, but he did shout to her in English. And her response, it was humorous and it was Holy Spirit led. But the bottom line is, as we keep saying, learn about the culture where you're going and do the best you can. There are there are cultural do's and don'ts for every culture.
Yeah.
And and you're going to make mistakes. I mean, you just are. That's OK. But, you know, you want to minimize them by doing your homework ahead of time. And it just shows a respect for the people where you go. And they can tell that you've done some homework, you know. And so, like, here's a really simple one.
When you sit down on the floor, if you're in the home of some poor people that we mentioned in the last episode, like Syrian refugees who don't have furniture. So you're sitting on the floor. Well, you would take off your shoes before you go into their little apartment. That's cultural.
But then when you sit, you would never let the sole of your foot show and especially not be pointed towards any individual. Somehow the sole of your foot and pointing that is like, it's like a shame. It's like,
it's like a very um objectionable thing in in these muslim cultures so you just learn things like that you know so you you either you know bend your sit cross leg keep your feet underneath you or but you just don't expose the bottom of your foot toward a person you're sitting across from in a muslim culture
Interesting. Simple little thing, you know? Sounds like the angels in a seraphim when they cover, you know, they got six wings, two to cover their face, two to cover their wings, and two in which they flew.
Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, but it's, I think that, you know, when a Muslim person tries to learn about some of the culture that we have, For example, even when a Muslim person at Christmas says Merry Christmas to me or Easter when they say Happy Easter to me, it's very meaningful to me. It means that they know that I love Christmas and I love the resurrection of Jesus at Easter.
So when they take the time to know that, yeah, that's a cultural difference, they don't believe in Christmas or Easter, and yet they have made the effort. They know it's important to me. It warms my heart. So when I make the effort to know what's important to them and, you know, limit maybe, I think one way to word it is kind of limit some of our freedoms. Love limits itself, right?
For the benefit of others, just as we said, Jesus emptied himself to come here. So, yeah, we can adhere to cultural differences in order to reach people with the gospel. We really need to do that.
Absolutely. Now, as I was reading it, I had to go and take a look for it myself. So the chapter in which we're pulling this this story from is on page ninety nine.
hang on a second it's page 95 it's page 95 96 and also 97 um but on page 97 uh under the question is to ponder it it has a list uh appendix 4 which is on page 289 which is the cultural do's and don'ts in reference to reaching out to muslim people so if you have a You take a look at Appendix 4 if you plan on doing any Muslim outreach in the future.
So the next question is this, you know, what kind of outreach might be most effective for Christians in other countries that are considered outsiders?
I believe firmly that... that one of the greatest evangelistic strategies that the Holy Spirit gives us is simply service. I keep going back to Philippians 2 today with you, Brandon, that Paul is speaking to the Philippian people about how Jesus emptied himself and came even as a servant, right?
And what we have found with Muslim people in these countries, these refugees, when we serve them, it's a kind of outreach that just opens their hearts. I mean, they are so stunned sometimes that we're doing this. And so there are all kinds of outreaches, but
you know we we have served different people even here in the states muslims um we have a muslim widow that we know her her husband actually accepted jesus before he died this muslim man but this muslim woman uh afterwards there she was left and and so we we mower grass we uh we when i say we i mean a group of believers christians
We help her with her taxes, with her paperwork for her kids in school, cleaning out the eaves, you know, the roof. I mean, shoveling snow in the winter. We try to serve her and help her. And so I believe that servant evangelism is really effective both here and in other countries. where we might be considered outsiders, it makes you an insider as you bless people through service.
Right. Now, I want to take you back to your book, Chapter 20, page 99. And it's very, very pointy, if you will. Like it kind of pierces home, if you will. And the title of this chapter is They Have Sharia Law in Dearborn, Michigan, Don't They? Reading this chapter, it's almost like the Muslim is asking the Michiganian, I guess that's how you say it, if there's a Sharia law in Michigan.
Talk to us about that story, Tim.
Okay, well, really where the title came from is that when we travel around the country doing our Bridging the Gap Muslim Outreach seminars in churches, very often people will ask us this question, which we made the title of this chapter. So this is actually Christians who are asking this. They'll say, hey, don't they have Sharia law in Dearborn, Michigan? And so Sharia law is...
by and large considered by Christians to be very negative, very Islamic, oppressive. And some of it is, but not all of it. Like for example, Brandon, Sharia law sometimes can be a very good thing. As an example, sometimes there are people in the Muslim community overseas or here that are made, they're kind of like leaders, tribal leaders,
And so when people have a conflict that might be serious enough to even go to the courts, instead they go to these Muslim leaders and they say, we need help. We can't resolve this. Can you help us with this? And so Sharia, that's part of Sharia law. So it's not all bad. But basically what this chapter is about is how there's far more freedom
in Dearborn, Michigan than most Christians would ever imagine to share the gospel. And maybe I need to back up and just tell your listeners, because some people are going, well, what's Dearborn, Michigan? I don't understand what you're talking about. So basically, Dearborn, Michigan is a largely Arab Muslim city now.
A huge amount of people that live in Dearborn, Michigan are immigrants from three countries, Lebanon, Iraq, and Yemen. And so when you drive down the street, Brandon, in Dearborn, Michigan, you come to a stoplight and you look over, there's going to be a woman sitting right next to you in her car. And she looks like she's straight out of the Middle East.
She's got a hijab on and she's wearing an abaya. And as you drive around the city, you might see women that are even wearing the niqab, which is the face covering. And so all you can see is that woman's eyes. And so Dearborn has a huge amount of practicing Muslims in it. And so a lot of Christians have wrongly
perceived it as a place they've heard about it, its reputation, and they think you can't share the gospel there. And in this chapter, we share several examples where there's complete freedom to share the gospel in Dearborn. Interesting.
Interesting. See, I would have never thought of Dearborn being nothing less than a Muslim culture. And I say that because the EPC at one point was in or near Dearborn, Michigan. Am I right?
Yeah, the EPC headquarters was very near there in Livonia.
Livonia.
Yeah, that's right. We sure were. And EPC World Outreach, the missions arm of the EPC was based there as well. Yeah, before they moved down to Orlando. But yeah, that's true. Yeah.
Yeah.
And maybe I could share a few examples from this chapter of how God has opened up the doors for Christians to share with Muslims in Dearborn.
Yes, please. I'd like to hear that.
okay great well uh one of the funnest things is that uh we actually uh every december the first two saturdays of december uh a group of christians go christmas caroling in the muslim neighborhoods of dearborn no it's just no yeah it is it is so fun and we actually even go to businesses on the main streets of dearborn and we'll just
we've built up relationship with some of the owners of different restaurants, dessert places, and so forth, barber shops. And we just go in and say, hey, here we are again this year. Can we just come in and Sing some Christmas carols for your people. And they graciously have us do it. And so there's a famous dessert place in Dearborn that the owner is so sweet.
She always lets us come in every year. And it's a large place. It's very popular. And people, the Arabs are in, Arab Muslim people are in there. waiting for their desserts and they're all filming us with their cell phones and smiling and waving at us. And it's just an amazing experience. I mean, and we sing Christmas carols that have the gospel, you know, in them.
And once in a while, it's so fun to even see a child or a person would like to sing along with us. So here they are. Here they are, Brandon. Here's a Muslim person singing a Christmas carol about Christ our Savior being born. So. Really fun and then we also go door-to-door and and not everybody opens their doors I mean, they don't know who we are.
So sometimes they might be afraid but yeah, we've just had wonderful experiences Praying with people as we've gone into their homes Praying for them like they might have a sick family member so Christmas caroling there has been great. We've also even gone door-to-door and
um uh just knocking on doors and saying hey we're from we're not from here but uh we're christians who love muslims is there anything we can pray for you about and that opens the door you know to ministry and we've taken even teenagers have gone with us and done that uh very well um yeah and so we've even uh we've taken people there many times to visit mosques
and hear the presentation of some of the leaders of the mosque. And then we're able to ask, you know, respectfully ask good questions related to the differences between Christianity and Islam. We've gone, we've taken part in debates, not taken part as in we've debated, but we've gone and watched debates and then talked to the Muslim debaters.
One time I went up to a debate a Muslim guy afterwards and I said Can I just give you a hug? And I remember he this this young man He looked at me kind of funny and and Miriam was watching the whole thing and she said he said she said he looked so nervous but after you hugged him she said I could just see like something broke like he felt loved and
You know, it was something that nobody, Christians apparently never ask him something like that. And it was just a Holy Spirit, you know, thing. And then the final thing I would share, Brandon, is there used to be something in Dearborn, Michigan, called the Arab Festival. It wasn't necessarily a Muslim thing. It was just an Arab thing. And so
arab christians as well as arab muslims would put on this festival in downtown dearborn right on the street they'd close down one of the major uh streets in dearborn and have this kind of like a county fair with a few little rides and yeah just really fun right and so various groups would come there and just really create um problems christian groups i mean from outsiders
But we were blessed to help another ministry. And that man passed out. He got a booth there. He passed out Christian books and literature. And it was just so cool to see the way Muslim people responded to him and to us. And so, yes, you can do ministry for the gospel in Dearborn, Michigan. It's not closed. And we want to get that word out to people.
And so we've helped take quite a few people there on little short term summer mission trips.
Nice. So that leads to my next question, which we just answered it. But I want to hear, I want us to talk about it. The question is, so who is Jesus and why did he come?
Yeah, wow. I mean, so there's theological answers and there's personal answers. And, you know, biblically, of course, Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. He's Emmanuel. He's God with us. And he came, you know, and I think I'll put this in context with our book and our ministry to Muslim people. He came because no one can be good enough to get to heaven.
You know, Muslims very often believe what it says in the Koran, and the Koran is a mixed bag about how you get forgiven. And basically, the bottom line is no Muslim knows anything.
uh really if they're ever going to make it um to paradise to heaven they just they don't know they have no assurance you know of of salvation and they think that they often think because the quran alludes to this that god allah has a scale And he weighs your good deeds and bad deeds. And if your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, you might, Brandon, you might make it to heaven.
But you won't know till the day of judgment. And many Muslims think they will spend at least some amount of time in hell. Kind of like a Catholic view of purgatory. And so they need to hear that. that Jesus came to rescue them from this fear of hell. You know, Paul even refers to that, this fear of death.
And they need to know that they can have an assurance that when they die, just as Jesus told that thief on the cross next to him, today, today, you'll be with me in paradise. And so Muslims, they need to know who Jesus is, that he's not just a prophet, as their book says, that he's so much more.
He is God with us, and he came to rescue us from our sins and ourselves and the punishment that we absolutely deserve for our rebellion against a holy and loving God.
amen he came through he came to restore us really yeah i remember hearing two different preachers and one preacher said well jesus came so we could get our sins forgiven but the other preacher said jesus didn't just come to get our sins forgiven jesus came to restore us to relationship with his father And so that's the ultimate, you know, penultimate is getting our sins forgiven.
But we have to have our sins forgiven for relationship to be restored. And that's what God wants. You know, he wants us to be restored to a beautiful father, son, father, daughter relationship with him.
That's amazing. That's that's beautiful. Now, my next question is going to lead to a sighting of Martin Luther. But why must God's word go forth? Why is that is so important that God's word goes forth?
Yeah, man. I mean, I mean, Paul made it really clear, didn't he? In Romans 10, you know, how can people believe unless they hear right?
and how can they hear unless someone tells them and so i think those two questions are just like oh they just i don't even know how to explain what they do to my soul it's just i'm thinking right now brandon of of uh you know roughly three billion people that have never heard the gospel right right and and how can they believe unless unless they hear and how can they hear paul says
Unless someone tells them and then it just takes us back to the words of our Savior in In the end of Matthew 9 where you know, he said there is a harvest out there It is plentiful, but the laborers are so few Pray that the Lord of the harvest would send out, you know harvesters laborers. And so Why must God's Word go forth? Well number one so that God will be glorified and
and his son will be satisfied by people from every tribe and language and nation coming to know him. And secondly, his word must go forth so that these people will not perish, you know? So they won't perish.
Yeah, that's the heart of God. Yeah. See, back in April 1517, or actually I think it was 1516, right after Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of Wittenberg, he said, His goal was to get the word of God in the hands of the people so that they could understand who God is and understand God's words for themselves. And one of the things that he told the imperial diet was this.
He said, unless I am convinced by scripture and plain reason, I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils for they have contradicted each other. My conscience is captive to the word of God and I cannot and will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen. And then he goes on to say, here I stand. I cannot do otherwise.
OK, so God's word has to go forth and we cannot back down whenever adversities come against us or whenever governments go against us for preaching and sharing the gospel, sharing the word of God. You know, we cannot revoke what we know and what we believe in because the word of God depends. Let me rephrase that. Let me not say the word of God depends on it.
The people that need to hear the word of God depend on our strength and our strength comes from God. He is the ultimate provider of our strength. So we can't recant. We can't step down from what we believe in. You know, Timothy, I love what you're doing up there in Dearborn and over in the Middle East is that you're holding on to God's word and you're saying that everybody has to hear this.
They have to know this message.
Amen. I love, love, love the intensity that I'm hearing as you read the words of Martin Luther when he stood before them and he said, you know, I cannot, I will not recant. Here I stand. And I love the intensity as you followed up with just your own words and
i mean man brother i i'm so happy to hear your heart for the lost and if there's if there's one thing that that grieves me i mean there's more than one but but one of the main things that grieves me so much about the western church capital c is just a lack of heart as it relates to getting God's word out to lost people.
Instead of that, we seem to have a religion of comfort and of making Jesus a genie, right? And we want him to just, we have kind of a vending machine God and a genie in a bottle, you know, like we make our wishes and
and uh rub the lantern and and jesus comes out and grants our wishes and desires i mean no you know everything is about how we can serve him and glorify him and he said by this is my father glorified that you bear much fruit
And so, brother, I just appreciate when I hear the intensity in your voice about God's word, that we have to get it out so that people can hear and be saved and restored to this relationship. that we're meant to have with God our Father.
Amen. And look, I want to close with this because, you know, we are fighting a spiritual warfare. The devil does not want us to go to Muslim people and share the gospel. The devil does not want us to go to anybody and share the gospel. Okay, this is a fallen angel, if you will, that thinks he is going to take over God's kingdom. You are a created creature.
You know, and I want the listeners to know this. The devil is a created creature that is trying to overthrow the almighty God. When I read Ephesians chapter six, verses 10 to 18, I'm not going to read the whole thing. But verse 10, starting at verse 10, it says, finally, be strong in the Lord and all of his mighty power.
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take a stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against rulers, against authorities, and against powers. For this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil. In the heavenly realms, therefore, put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground.
And after all you have done and I'm sorry, after you have done everything to stand, stand firm, stand firm. Amen. After you have placed that seed of the scripture in the ear of a lost person, stand firm. After you have shown that person love, even though they have treated you worthlessly as if you're nothing, stand firm. Because God's word does not return to him void.
Amen. Boy, preach it, brother. Preach it. You know, when you were saying that about standing firm, it makes me think of, and obviously it's way too big of a subject for us to address, and it doesn't relate to Muslim ministry or our book, Loving Your Muslim Neighbor, but
stand firm i mean we're living in a day where god's word amongst so many christians is not being held high right exactly yeah they don't have a high view of scripture so they don't they don't understand the concepts that you and i believe in foundationally like the inerrancy of scripture the infallibility of scripture that scripture can be trusted uh totally
and uh and that the original autographs you know are without error they're perfect god got to us what he wanted to get to us and and then i stand firm in that but also stand firm in the goodness of god yeah when you see evil in the world amen right amen so now we have this term you know that's so sad but it's becoming more popular deconstruction
right where we have these guys that like some of them are christian singers for example or authors who we looked up to and and now we read that they're quote unquote deconstructing from their christian faith they're no longer holding to the bible as god's word or jesus as the only way of salvation and so man as you were reading that brandon i was just thinking we have got to stand firm because
as you said man the devil wants to knock down um in our eyes the veracity and trustworthiness of scripture and and he wants to cause us to question the goodness of god at every turn yeah
Yes, that is so true. And I have nothing else to add. Listen, guys, it is not too late to get a copy of this book, Loving Your Muslim Neighbor. You can order a copy at lovingyourmuslimneighbor.com or you can actually search it on Amazon. Get this book. It's not too late.
You can still follow along as we go through this season, as we capture the best stories we can from this book to help and be a guide to you as you read along. And in this, stand firm and may God be glorified. And as we stand, we stand on his promises. That's all I have. Thank you so much for joining us. And we look forward to next week with another amazing episode. God bless you all.
You have reached the end of yet another episode from the ear. We hope that God's word remains on the ears of the listeners. We pray that this podcast would urge you to go forth and spread his good news to the world. Thank you for tuning in. Please don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. See you at the next episode. God bless you and may his glory shine upon you.