Timothy Harris
Appearances
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
You're spying on us. I said, no, my friend. No, I just came here to love you in Jesus name. And and he's and then he just said to me, you'll be the first one in line on the day of judgment because you knew the truth about Islam and you rejected it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
and so so the way the story ends this story ends brandon is uh i really i just thanked him for the warning and i just i just gave him a hug and i think he was just so shocked uh and disarmed by the hug he just didn't know what to say and so he turned around and left but yeah that was um That was one interesting story of going to a mosque and things escalating, let's say.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah. So good, brother. So good. Let me before I answer that, let me just say that that is the. I think maybe I've only had two or maybe three situations like that in 15 years in mosques all over the United States and many mosques in the Middle East also. Generally, Muslims will welcome you to the mosque because, first of all, they want to convert you.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
That helps them get to paradise if they can convert a Christian. Just culturally, they're hospitable. So it's just built in. And third, they don't want you to think that they are all terrorists. So they want to put on a good, you know, show their good side. Right. And so but yeah, I think that I do not recommend to your listeners just to walk up to a mosque and go in.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
No, it's especially those who might be young in their faith or even those who are older in their faith.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Hey, praise God, man. I hope that your listening audience is getting more and more of God's heart for lost people and particularly in this case for Muslim people.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
um you need to go with it with at least one other person and i highly highly recommend that you call the mosque first and make an appointment and just tell them hey i'm a follower of jesus jesus tells us to love our neighbor and i would just love to come and meet you and learn more about what you believe And and then people just need to pray first because Islam is very enticing.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Don't try to go and win an argument when you're there. Don't. And I really think don't go with the sole purpose of, quote unquote, dumping the gospel on people. You know, if a Muslim visited your church, you wouldn't want them to come in and loudly or rudely try to convert you to Islam. You would respect them much more if they just watched, they were observant, they asked questions respectfully.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And so we need to do the same. So yeah, we need to go with humility, be good listeners. And then sometimes the Lord does, there's like a gap or an opening or a nudge from the Holy Spirit to just share something of the gospel. And we've done that many times, but
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah, we really recommend your listeners, if you want to visit a mosque, make an appointment, go as a group, never go by yourself, and just go and be the light of Jesus. Go with his kind of beautiful humility and strength.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah, so this was in August of 2012, and my outreach partner and I, Gary, we would very often visit a Muslim guy that had his own auto repair place. His name was Amir. And so we went and visited them one day, and they were actually getting ready to go to the mosque. It was a Friday, and Friday is the big day for Muslims to go to the mosque. It's usually a midday day.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
a sermon that they have from their leader and a time of prayer and so we just asked hey could we could we go along uh we asked amir and his friend yusuf that was there and so we went with them we came back to the auto repair place and um amir's friend yusuf never met him before that day but when we got back to the auto repair place he just kept hammering me with islam
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Somewhat like the last story of the guy in the mosque. He was just preaching Islam at me. And this doesn't happen too often, but occasionally you'll find a Muslim that just they don't want a discussion. They don't want a dialogue. They just want to kind of defeat you. by just overpowering you with words and trying to wear you down until you become a Muslim.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And that's what this guy did. And finally, he just, this is a short story, he just saw that he wasn't making any headway with me. I was listening, but, you know, he could tell I wasn't agreeing with what he was saying. And he finally just got so exasperated that he was so flustered. frustrated, he finally turned to me and he said, Tim, I just want to hit you right now.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And, you know, I mean, Brandon, I am not what you would consider a brave person at all. And but and I didn't really know, you know, what was going to happen next. But the words that came out of my mouth were, well, OK, all right. If it makes you feel any better, go ahead. And he And he was so disarmed by that silly kind of comment that he just started laughing.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
It just diffused everything, you know?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah, man. That's right. That's right.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Amen. Amen, brother. Yeah, we. Yeah, that's you said it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
yeah he did you know he did yeah yeah we just want to keep encouraging people don't get sucked in to an ego kind of driven ego driven battle with a muslim over who's right and who's wrong it just no matter what you will lose uh or more importantly the gospel will lose because uh that person feels they have to win you feel you have to win
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And so we just tell people, don't get sucked into a competition or a head-to-head, you know, debate, endless debate. But rather, you know, just smile at your Muslim friend and kindly ask them questions like, have you ever asked Jesus to show you who he is? Or have you ever had a dream or a vision of Jesus? And you might tell them a story of someone like the story I just mentioned about Malik.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
in the pre about the preceding chapter uh you might ask them are you worried about the day of judgment that's a big one yeah because almost all muslims are really afraid of hell and the day of judgment and you might ask him hey you know you've been talking to me and preaching islam at me um do you think allah will allow you into paradise what do you think
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And then finally, you can just ask, hey, is there anything I can pray for you about? I love to pray for my friends, and I consider you my friend. Is there anything I can pray for you about? So those are the kind of questions that with some Muslims will diffuse if there's kind of a hot, you know, somebody's hot-tempered and they're really, it's not going well.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Some of those things can be that gentle answer that turns away wrath. And in this case, gentle questions that turn away wrath. Yeah.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah. So in 2012, the Lord just opened up a whole new chapter.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
myriads and myriads upon myriads upon myriads of people every nation tongue and tribe standing before the throne am i crazy am i crazy for thinking man no that is so much um that is so much of a something that all of us can join you in brandon as kind of an ultimate vision for our lives like
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Like we're stressing so much now at EPC World Outreach, the whole thing about 3 billion people woke up today in spiritual darkness, blind to the glory and love of Jesus. And so it's kind of like two sides of the same coin. On one side of the coin, it's we're looking at how many people have never heard of Jesus. We would call them least access or least reached people.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
aspect of our ministry to muslim people and it was refugees and it was refugees that we would meet as we would travel to a certain country in the middle east and so man i tell you brandon we were just kind of blown away by by listening to these people for example the first story i tell um in this chapter is about um a muslim syrian man named malik malik um
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And so that's one side of the coin that, you know, that maybe that one third of the world that hasn't heard. But the other side of the coin is the is the so that's the painful side. The other side that's so optimistic and amazing and beautiful is your Revelation seven nine. verse in the Bible, which, you know, talks about, hey, but there will be, it's going to happen.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
There will be people around the throne of God from every tribe and language and people and nation. And so let's, you know, I think every person should ask themselves, how can I be part of seeing that statistic change about 3 billion people who've never heard? How can I be part of that?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And then how can I then have this vision that Brandon has, man, that there will be those people gathered around the throne. I want to be part of making that happen. Man, I long for all your listeners, all of us, to have that kind of passion that you do about this.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
amen brother well hey you know as we've talked about so many times on this podcast if you're called to go overseas great but most are not but they can be senders with their finances and they can be prayers you know and and also then for those who do go and then the other thing is as we've talked about so many times God has brought the nations here right I mean if you live anywhere near a
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
a community college or any kind of university, you are going to see international students from all over the world. And many of them come from places where they don't have much access at all or no access to the gospel, but now they're here. And so I think every Christian should be a missionary no matter where they live. But we are. We are, aren't we? We are. Or we should be, at least. Right.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
We need to see ourselves that way. Yeah. Yeah.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
had lived in Syria, and not long after the civil war started there in 2011, he dared to lower the Syrian flag. It was on a flagpole on top of a building, and he dared to lower it and put up a flag of one of the resistance groups. And so the Syrian army very quickly grabbed him, imprisoned him for a year and a half.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
and tortured him terribly for a year and a half, so much so that they actually threw him out. He doesn't know exactly. He thinks it was kind of like a pile of trash, but they threw him out for dead or to leave him to die, and somehow, someway, he has no idea to this day he wound up waking up in a hospital in an adjoining country.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Um, yeah, he lived on the very close to the border of an adjoining country, but he doesn't know how he even got to this other country. Woke up, um, once he was able to called his wife, she thought he was dead. I mean, there was just that shock amongst his family. And, um,
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And so he's just one example of a refugee that we talked to, and we've talked to maybe hundreds now, that God then took that suffering and brought them to Christ. So can I just share briefly how that happened with him?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Okay. So what happened to Malik was I met him with one of our sons. We were traveling together to do a trip to work with these refugees. And I met him in 2014 and I shared the gospel with him, but he just wasn't ready for it yet. He just he was so depressed and unable to use his hands and just from the torture because they told him because he took down that Syrian flag.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
They said, you'll never use these hands again. And so but I saw him one year later in 2015. And I was with our Arab Christian friends that have this wonderful NGO that help refugees. And we saw Malik walking down the street. And I said to my friend, man, he looks different. What's going on? And my Arab Christian friend said, he said, Tim, he's been born again. Malik's been born again.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
I said, what's the story? And here it is in a nutshell. Malik said, I was sitting in my apartment one day, I was smoking and thinking I was depressed and a bright light came into my room. He said, I felt like it was in another world and I could see a man, but not his face. And he said to me, Malik, I am the savior of the world. I am the way, the truth and the life.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And I want to introduce myself to you. Isn't that wild, Brandon?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and so he went right away the next day to the to the Christian NGO that I keep referring to, our dear friends.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
and they were able to just show him hey you saw jesus this these words you heard are from john 14 6 in the bible and and so he became a believer and brandon it is so cool man we see him at least once a year and he just keeps growing in his faith his wife hated us for years she would not accept
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
uh jesus she would not accept christianity but then she then she heard a voice once that she was bowing to do her prayers or muslim prayers five times a day and someone from behind her hugged her and said don't do that anymore and she was so shocked but the voice was so amazing And she knew it was Jesus and she was born again. And now she just smiles. She loves us.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And so these are just two examples of refugees that God has used their terrible suffering and then used Arab Christians and some of our teams from the States. To help them come to Christ.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah. Yeah. It's just, yeah. It's like we said in the last podcast, you know, sometimes if you ever have the devil put in your mind a doubt about, Hey, Is all this Christianity stuff real? Is there really going to be a heaven? Was Jesus who he said he was? When you see someone born again, you know that it's nothing short of a miracle. And it's God. God is real. He's alive.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Jesus is who he said he was. And yeah, but man, our lives, Brandon, have been changed today.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
by these refugees i mean we go we go with this christian ngo in the winter a lot um and give them blankets and stoves and little washing machines and i mean you should you should just see i still remember seeing this dear woman syrian refugee woman with her daughter she took this blanket that we took to them and she took it out of the plastic um kind of thing that held it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And the whole time we talked, she and her daughter just stroked that blanket. I mean, it was like this precious possession because they have nothing, man. You go into their little apartments and it's just like the Syrians, they just have mats on the floor. They often don't have beds, no furniture. They just have nothing. And so they appreciate all this physical help, but
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
i still remember these two syrian brothers that said to us um think and we take them food bags too by the way a lot like almost weighing about 50 pounds uh food bags and um i still remember these two refugee brothers syrians they said to us thank you for the food but thank you so much more for listening to our pain
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Boy, some of both. You're right.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, brother. Yeah, man. I think, you know, cliches are cliches, right? But sometimes they have such good truth. And one old Christian cliche is that people won't care what we know until they know that we care. Yes. So, you know, it is kind of trite, maybe a cliche sounding, but man, is it true for the people that we all meet? Right.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Yeah. Well, this is a yeah, this is chapter 30 in our book. And so one of the blessings in our lives and some of your listeners might think when I tell them what it is, they might think that doesn't sound like much of a blessing to me. But but Miriam, my wife and I have been in mosques.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
um all over the united states i mean i can't even i don't think i could count how many mosques we've been in uh we go to mosques for two different reasons one um to be a to be a light you know for jesus and to befriend people there to get to know them but number two we very very often take christians
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
on scheduled visits to mosques so that they can observe the prayer time not participate in anything but just observe watch from the back get to know the leader of the mosque and ask questions and hear what they say about about islam so In one situation, I had gone to a mosque. It was during Ramadan, which is, of course, that 30-day time when Muslims fast during the day and feast at night.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And so I went with a dear friend, John, to a mosque in Dearborn, Michigan. Dearborn's a very, we've talked about a little bit before, but it's an amazing place. Might have the largest Arab Muslim population there. In the world outside the Middle East, it's that it's that Arab and that Muslim. Wow. Yeah. And so we went to this to this mosque. And it was mostly people from Yemen.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
It was built in 1937. It's old and historic. And we went for the meal after the.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
at night to the end of the day during ramadan and we joined in with uh the muslim men and sat on the floor and uh just enjoyed you know kind of talking and they were welcoming us but finally one old man uh he was listening to conversation i was having with a couple of other men about islam and he said you know islam you know so much about it why haven't you said the shahada
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
Now, the Shahada for your listeners is the statement of faith that someone says to become a Muslim. It's a statement of faith that Muslims say many times a day. And so he just I said, you know, I wasn't interested, but I was there to be a friend.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
interact and he just he began to preach at me louder and louder and more and more men gathered around us like encircling us my friend John said Tim I think it's time to go man we need to get out of here and I just and I just I mean we're outnumbered like 300 to 2 or 4 there might have been four of us And I just couldn't leave.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
I didn't want to get into a competition with this guy, but I didn't want to give in to a spirit of fear. And I also didn't want the rest of the Muslim men there to kind of see me as a defeated foe for the glory of Islam. So I wasn't determined to win because I think that's a bad place. When we get in an argument with a Muslim and we're determined to win, it's not a good thing. But
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
His temperature kept rising, man, and he just kept challenging me to say the Shahada. And finally, I just said to him, I challenge you to see that Jesus died for you on the cross and wants you to accept his sacrifice for you. And he said, oh, man, now he was hot. He was visibly angry. His temperature kept rising. His voice kept getting louder.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Crossing Cultures: Compassion and Conflict in Muslim Outreach
And he just shouted at me in front of all these Muslim men, you have insulted my holy Quran, you know, my holy book. And so at that point, Brandon, even I knew it was time to go. So we started up the steps from the basement. He followed us. He was just preaching at me all the way. We got out on the sidewalk. He was still preaching at me. He shouted at me, I know you're in the CIA or the FBI.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
um that gives you a little bit of an idea of what kind of money is in some of these uh arab muslim countries in the gulf the arab gulf then i said uh to miriam we had heard that you know we'd see these women carrying around these purses and somebody told us These purses value from something like between $2,000 to $6,000.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Absolutely. Now, I'm going to do something a little unorthodox here, which is something I'm not used to. I do everything decently in an order. That's the mark of a Presbyterian. But today we're going to go back one chapter before we go forward. All right. Now, Christians, we have what we call Christmas. We have Easter, you know, the resurrection of Christ, the birth of Jesus.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
So much to Miriam's embarrassment because I'm an extrovert and I just love doing some of these crazy things. And she's quieter and has a little more common sense. But we set out on this search for the most expensive purse we could find. We went into a store and they said this is our most. They went in the back and got it. It was made from the belly of an Asian crocodile.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
And again, this is 11 years ago. And it was $39,000 for that purse. Wow. And so the Filipino salesman that worked there was kind enough to let us take our picture with it. But the moral of the, you know, the chapter wasn't just about scavenger hunts for pens and purses.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
It was the concept that we wanted people to get out of it was that we need to pray for these wealthy people in the Middle East that they will hear the words of Jesus. Luke 12, 33, sell your possessions, give to the poor. And then this fascinating verse based on our title, provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out a treasure in heaven that will never fail.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
And then in the questions to ponder, we asked people these questions, which is more disturbing to you?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
the abject dire poverty of muslim refugees who've had to flee for their lives to find safety in a new life or the ridiculously wasteful spending habits of rich muslims blessed with oil and gas under their desert sands ouch and then yeah and then two more questions how would you as a follower of jesus reach out
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
with the good news to poverty-stricken Muslim refugees living in Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, or Europe, or even that have moved here to the U.S.? And then how would you reach out with the good news to incredibly wealthy Muslim people? So on the other end of the spectrum, living in the Arabian Gulf countries that we mentioned, Bahrain, Qatar, the UAE, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
So the chapter really is to provoke uh thought about um wealthy people and poor people how do you share the gospel with both groups uh of muslim people okay can i answer can i answer
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Oh, please do. OK, if you're listening and you have a pen, maybe not so expensive. I want you to write down Matthew 28, 19 to 20, where it says, therefore, go and make disciples in all nations and be sure of this. And this is a different translation that I am with you always, even until the end of the world. Oh, what a statement.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
As you know, that's the way we end that chapter, because every Muslim, rich or poor, is needs a follower of Jesus who will love them and and follow the Great Commission that you just read about from Matthew 28. Right.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Absolutely. And that's a beautiful thing. Now, the next chapter kind of reminds me of James chapter two, verses one to 13. But, you know, that's a I'll get into that explanation later. You know, so why why should we visit Muslim mosque and why should we encourage our Muslim friends, if you were to visit our churches?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Yeah. So one morning I woke up in 2011 and the Lord just laid this impression on my heart that we should start something called a goodwill tour. And the idea was that we would take Christians to visit mosques on Friday afternoons when they had their primary, that's when they have their sermon. Like we have our Sunday sermon. Well, their primary day of worship is Friday around the
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
We have those two holidays we celebrate. The Jews have the Passover and I think Yom Kippur.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
kind of around the noon hour, one o'clock in the afternoon. So the idea was to take followers of Jesus to mosques to observe their sermon of prayers, but then also take Muslims to visit and observe Sunday morning worship services in churches. And so, yeah, and if we could do them in the same weekend, all the better, you know, and then have Q&A at each place afterwards, you know, and so,
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
We started doing that and it had really good results. The Christians who came with us to the mosque learned a lot. They interacted with Muslim people. And then the Muslims who came and visited church services were really struck by, you know, I think the worship really impacted them. And I think hearing the word of God impacted them. And so we had these nice Q&A times afterwards. It was great.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Man, I think I want to steal that idea or any paperwork you got and probably start one down here if I can.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Oh, that'd be great, brother. Now, I do want to say, with kind of a caveat, we do not recommend that Christians just walk into a mosque. We recommend that you...
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
uh set something up ahead of time you call you set an appointment you know so you're not just walking in cold turkey and then we recommend that you get some training you don't just go in without some understanding of islam and cultural differences and we also recommend that you never go alone especially as a woman but you go in groups and you set it up ahead of time and you make sure that
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Yeah. So, you know, we have all these holidays based around God and Jesus and Christianity and Judaism and all that good stuff and, you know, whatnot. Well, your book, Chapter 21, asks a question. Why don't they have an I Love Muslim Day? So let's talk about that before we move forward, if you will, if you will.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
I don't think it's a place necessarily, Brandon, to take young believers or immature believers because Islam is seductive, and you don't want to really take a believer that's not firm or solid in their faith that might be tempted, for example, to become a Muslim.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
yeah that that makes a lot of sense that that's good point so let me ask you this um and we should know the answer but i'm gonna get you to give us some context behind it are good kind devout muslim people going to heaven oh man and that boy i tell you yeah what a great question so
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
um i want to read i want to read something from a friend of ours named tom in this chapter related to that he said i keep running into believers who have embraced some shade of universalism this even includes former missionary colleagues who would not say that they are universalists but at the same time they're inclined to believe that they're very kind
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
generous faith-driven muslim friends surely must be in the kingdom not because this muslim friend has surrendered to jesus as king and lord and believes in his death burial and resurrection but rather because the muslim friend is such an amazing person who seems to love and serve god so well and so we really really want your listeners to hear the old adage
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that is so true good people don't go to heaven forgiven people do amen yeah and the bible has just said to us so clearly right brother in romans 1 16 paul made it clear that the gospel is the power of god that brings salvation to those who believe and so we know ephesians 2 8 9 right that we're not saved
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uh by the good works that we've been uh that we've done but solely by the grace of god right and so yeah so good people um so we need to be careful as we reach out to muslims that we don't let the devil come along and and do like he did to eve and to adam in the garden has god really said you know and so what he what he tries to whisper in the ears of people now
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as it relates to good Muslim people, is he'll say to a Christian, has God really said that Jesus is the only way to heaven? Has God really said there's no other way, there's no other name under heaven by which we must be saved? And so the devil can create doubt, because when you fall in love with a Muslim person through a deep friendship,
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um you you let your it's easy to let your emotions dictate too much of your theology and then the devil comes along and creates doubt and so we have to do what you how you finished an earlier episode stand firm ephesians 6 says stand firm in your faith stand firm in the word of god that jesus truly is
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All right. Well, I Love Muslim Day was basically kind of born out of what I feel like was a really sad time in our country. And it was when there was a pastor in Florida of a really small church. And he was going to, on the anniversary of 9-11, He was going to publicly burn copies of the Quran, 200 copies of it. This was in 2010.
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the only way of salvation, even whether a person is good or not, be they Muslim or any other person.
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Amen. And, you know, we shouldn't neglect our hospitality to strangers. That's in Hebrew. That's Hebrews 13, 12, where it talks about, you know, show hospitality, be that hospitable person that, you know, purposely seeks out to dine with a Muslim, you know, like be that person.
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Yeah, and be that church even that in context of this chapter, be that church that says, you know, why don't we invite some Muslims to visit sometime? And we can have a Q&A with them afterwards if they'd like. I mean, you'd need to prepare. You'd need to, you know, study. But yeah, that hospitality that you just mentioned, brother, is so important. Amen.
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Now, the last, let me not say last chapter. The third chapter that's in this episode, it's named the Dearborn International Arab Festivals, Christians Giving Christianity a Bad Name. Now, I want to spend some time here with that because there are so many so-called Christian groups that do not represent true, pure Christianity.
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They don't represent true, pure love that Christ came and died and gave us. You know, so I want to spend some time here. And we got a few minutes to kind of talk about it. But but what sparked this chapter?
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Well, this chapter was based on we never lived in Dearborn or actually made that our center of ministry. But we lived about an hour away from there. And we go there often to do ministry to Muslims with some of our dear friends there that were missionaries to Muslims and lived in Dearborn.
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And so this chapter really there were three different groups that more than that, but three groups that we mentioned in this chapter that were called Christians came into Dearborn during the Arab Festival, which took place every every summer. I think it was in June and they would come in. So the first group came in and they were passing out gospel tracts on the sidewalk.
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and the city of Dearborn as to the entry point of the, the Dearborn, uh, Arab festival, the city of Dearborn told them, you can't do that. Um, those Christians took the city of Dearborn to court. Now the Christians won, but Brandon, to me, they lost in a way, in a way, because it was a nasty fight. And, um,
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and i'll get to why i think what they did was wrong in a minute the second group that came in was a smaller group and they came in with a video camera and they went around the arab festival just kind of watching things interviewing people and they saw that there was a there was a booth in this in this arab festival run by muslims
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And it said something like, you know, talk to us if you want to know more about Islam, the religion of Muslims. So they went over there and they said, hey, we'd like to talk to you guys about Islam. And the Muslims at their booth said, well, we'd like to talk, but turn off your camera. They said, no, we're not going to turn off our camera. This is America. We have the right to film.
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and it developed into kind of a skirmish really kind of a just this verbal and then almost a physical you know i think altercation and um finally
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uh the police came and arrested these three individuals that were there christians that were doing their their filming and um and so um it just gave kind of it was just another thing that gave kind of a bad name to christians and then the third thing that really topped it off brandon was this group came in and oh i just heart it's hard for me to even talk about them but they call themselves the bible believers
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So again, all three of these groups are out-of-towners. They're not there investing in Muslims like some of our friends are every day. They don't live in Dearborn. They just come in, try to do their thing, and then send out their newsletters saying, you know, kind of how great they are, all the results they had. Well, this third group came in.
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Again, they called themselves the Bible Believers, and they had these huge, huge, tall signs saying, that they would kind of march around with and you know one of the signs is okay it was john 3 16. but another one of their signs said that muhammad is a pervert and a pedophile wow and and you know i mean to a muslim person when you say something like that you offend them to the core
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And I remember Brandon when I heard about this, I was just really incensed. I was really.
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and it creates it has created violence around the world when something like this has been said or done like probably one of the most famous instances of it are the danish cartoons uh that created so much uh issue years ago but um so these guys marched around with these signs and they had megaphones and it just grieves me i mean i wrote about it in this chapter
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they would shout out at some of the Muslim teenagers, you're going to melt in the fires of hell, you dirtbags. They called them animals. And all I could think about was what Bible do these Bible believers, so-called Bible believers, believe in? I mean, they were just such haters. They came three years in a row. The third year, it was really bad.
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um it was so bad that that uh riot police came out from the city of dearborn on horses you know and they have the shields and the and horses and all of this and they came out and why because these so-called they call themselves the bible believers they brought into the arab festival a severed pig's head and put it on a stick and marched around the arab festival you're kidding me
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i feel like i had a really righteous anger because you know i want all your listeners to know and hear that obviously i'm not a muslim i don't believe in the message of the quran absolutely yeah so i want to make that unequivocally clear but i also want to say that um to what he was doing to me was reprehensible and
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You can find my podcast and other podcasts similar to mine on the Christian Podcast Community at podcast.strivingforeternity.org.
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no it was it was so horrible so reprehensible so i mean everybody knows and they know that muslims don't eat pork and here you are marching around with this grotesque you know terrible pig's head on a pole and and so what happened then uh brandon was some of these teenagers
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uh they started pelting these guys with uh plastic water bottles you know full of water and and these these guys the bible believers um had their own film uh equipment and they were filming themselves being you know hit with these water bottles um and then they put something on youtube which went viral and it was called something like this Christians are stoned by Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan.
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Yeah, something they created, something they kind of deserved. I mean, it wasn't right. And the police should have done a better job of controlling it and breaking it up. And so this went viral. And so what it did is, was it caused so many Christians around the country to look at Dearborn as this place where, you know, Christianity, you can't get in there and share the gospel.
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You can't do anything, you know, for Christ. We talked about this in the last episode. Well, one more story about this Dearborn International Arab Festival. Josh McDowell came there. Josh McDowell has been criticized lately because he did make a few ridiculous statements that were just not right. I don't know if you heard about those.
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I really respect him a lot, but he made some comments which
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i don't think he's a racist but they sounded like it he did he did immediately apologize he's in his 80s now so i don't know you know kind of what was up but back then he came to the arab festival and he did it the right way brandon um weeks in advance actually months in advance he came to dearborn he went to the mayor the chief of police some of the muslim leaders in town and he said i'm going to get a booth
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I'm going to rent a booth at the Arab Festival and I just want to share my books and my materials with Muslim people." And they said, welcome, come. And Brandon, it was so fun to see all of the Muslim people that got in lines to come and see Josh and talk to him and get his books. I mean, he's written some amazing books.
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So he was giving away like more than a carpenter, that great book about the identity of Jesus.
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Yeah. He was giving that away for free in English and Arabic, you know, and he was so winsome when he talked to Muslim people. Now, going back to that first group that came in and wanted to distribute the tracks and took Dearborn to court. Hey, why didn't they just do it like Josh? Why didn't they just do it like the Arab Festival asked people to do? Rent a booth. Rent a booth.
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Give away as much as you want. But they didn't. And so Josh was just such an amazing example in that case.
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Being a lover instead of a hater and it and it bore so much more fruit and so Yeah, and then our friend John a friend John Oh a delightful assembly of God Guy he was just he just got cold water and he was passing out cups of cold water because it was just sweltering humid at that time of the year and he was just passing out cups of cold water to Muslims and he had tracts available and
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We talked earlier last week and the week before about adhering to cultural differences and trying where we can to be kind and gracious and generous to Muslims. Well, the idea of burning their book creates so much anger in them. And, you know, this was such a big deal that this little pastor became famous overnight.
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and uh so yeah one of our chapters uh subtitle is lovers haters and a man named john and so the dearborn international arab festival was was quite an event sadly it doesn't exist anymore at least not like that because these outside groups of so-called christians ruined it and god it got shut down the the city just said this is too much of a hassle because these christians come in and
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they're just so they're stirring up so much trouble though so they stopped it so man man and you see that was a prime place where the gospel could have reached thousands of people oh and it and it did through people like josh and others but then these outside groups man that that came in with ulterior motives and terrible terrible methodologies and and lack of love you know they they messed things up and so
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Yeah, we quote in the beginning of that chapter that this is from the message. And I know the message is not, you know, it's not ESV, but I think some scriptures are done well in it. In Philippians 1.11, it says that we should make Jesus Christ attractive to all. In verse 20, it says we should make Christ more accurately known.
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And in verse 27 of Philippians 1, it says we should be a credit to the message of Christ. And so let's don't be those kind of Christians. that give Christianity a bad name to Muslim people.
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Absolutely. I agree. You know, and right before we close, one of your questions in this chapter says, if you had the occasion to speak to one of the haters mentioned in this chapter, one of the Bible believers, what would you say to them? I would literally say to them, shame on you. Shame on you for trying to tarnish the very thing God told us to share.
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God told us to share love and here you are perpetuating and spewing hatred. Shame on you and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Amen, brother. Oh, man. Brandon, you and I are kindred spirits. And I actually did walk up to one of the guys and tell him that very thing. And he just berated me. Of course. That's the devil. Yeah, what would you expect from his behavior? But brother, what you just said, man, that right on.
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But look, John Calvin said it best. Without the gospel, everything is useless and vain. Without the gospel, everything is useless and vain. So if you walk up to someone of a different faith and you start spewing this hatred in the name of Christ, everything you just said is canceled out. It's useless.
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And like I said in the previous episode, and I've said most of my life, is that the word of God does not return to him void. So what makes you think that you, a so-called Christian, is what I'm going to call you? Yes, I'm going to judge you because you claim to be a Christ follower.
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What do you think is going to happen when you walk up to a person of a different faith and start telling them that they're going to hell? I mean, obviously, they're going to learn that if you show them love. They're going to know that if you preach the gospel to them in a loving manner.
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You can't just walk up to him and say you're going to hell or, you know, your your God is a child pedophile or whatever. Like, what are you thinking? Your your job as a messenger of Christ is to preach Christ and Christ crucified. Nothing else.
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And really, yeah, so amen, brother. And I always want to say to you, Brandon, man, you preach it and I'll turn the pages. And I think that our listeners need to hear, right, the Great Commission, without the Great Commandment, it just doesn't, it's not right.
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We, you know, the Great Commission is essential that we make disciples of all nations, that we share the gospel with all people and disciple them
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And our president, a vice president at the time, our president, our secretary of state, the pope, even all of them weighed in on this and begged this man not to do this. He held off.
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baptizing them but also the great commandment to love our neighbors as ourselves you know that has to go hand in hand the great commandment with the great commission and that's what this chapter was meant to be all about was hey let's don't let's don't be the kind of people that put obstacles in the way of the gospel right you know uh second corinthians 6 3
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in the esv says we put no obstacle in anyone's way so that no fault may be found with our ministry yeah so and then uh colossians 4 6 in nlt let your conversation so we could say in this case let your conversation with muslim people or any any unbeliever be gracious and attractive
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so that you will have the right response for everyone amen so great great commission with great commandment let me let me close with another quote by john calvin uh and and and this one is probably hits home a little bit more for those quote unquote bible believer group people John Calvin says that without the gospel, all wealth is poverty. All wisdom is folly before God. Strength is weakness.
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And all the justice of man is under the condemnation of God. So by happenstance, if one of these people of these groups that attended the festival in the past, everything you did will be judged. And I can't be the one to say anathema. That will be God.
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You know, so to my listeners, I am begging you to be patient with yourself and allow the Holy Spirit to work through you and to love people of different ethnic groups or different religions so that God's word can go forth and pierce those hearts so that they can see the love of Christ. And not the hatred of your religious group, if you will. We have to start showing love. I know this country.
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I know this world is far gone and there's no redeeming it by my own merit, by your own merit, Tim, by the church's own merit. It's got to come from Christ. But what we can at least attempt to do for the rest of our days on this earth is to love our neighbor via Muslim, Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, you know, Muslim, Buddhist or what have you. Love your neighbor, period. And I end with that.
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uh for a little while but eventually he did burn some copies of the quran publicly and sure enough it stirred things up in different countries around the world and sure enough people were killed as a result of it and so i remember when i heard about him getting ready to do this i was having um Lunch with my accountability partner.
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So thank you guys for listening to this episode of Loving Your Muslim Neighbor. You can find a copy of this book at lovingyourmuslimneighbor.com. You can also find a link to this podcast on the website as well, as well as another interview that Tim did on a radio station. Thank you guys for tuning in to this season. God bless y'all.
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And I hope you find this material and content enriching to your soul. God bless you all.
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I'll call him Solomon because he's very wise And I told him about this and he said to me. Why don't you why don't you counter this guy? Why don't you do something positive? for the Muslim community and so he said why don't you have an I love Muslims day and So it was really from the boy, you know, the Holy Spirit through him that gave us this idea. So I
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We went to the leader of the Muslim Student Association at a large university here in Michigan. And we told him about our idea that we just wanted to have an event where we would gather Christians and Muslims together at this students from this university and just have a time of breaking bread and friendship. And we wanted to show our love for them.
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I had to send it to him by an email because he was out of town. And we had built some relationship actually with him, built a friendship with him. And I still remember his email. He said, when I saw your email wanting to do an I Love Muslims Day for us, he said it brought tears to my eyes. Nobody's ever done something like this for us. And so we began to train him.
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some Christian students on campus about cultural differences, as we keep talking about, and said, hey, guys, we're going to have a night where Miriam's going to put together a super meal. It's going to be halal, which means the meat will be something that the Muslims feel that they can eat, kind of akin to or similar to kosher for Jewish people.
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and so it wasn't big it wasn't a big event we had about 55 christian students and about 55 muslim students but brandon it was the neatest night i mean we we ate together had that excellent meal we got the students together christians and muslims in small groups where they could meet each other we had icebreaker questions they were sharing getting each other's phone numbers
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we ended the night by having a top 10 reasons uh i create a powerpoint top 10 reasons why we love muslim people nice and yeah and we ended we ended so most of those were things like uh some of the common ground things you know that we have like we have some prophets in common uh that that muslim people are um very interested in family
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uh they have a respect for jesus they try to follow god's commands and so forth but we uh we ended with two things uh our top uh reason one uh b was jesus said love your neighbor as yourself right but one a we said to us as followers of jesus the word islam
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i s l a m stands for i sincerely love all muslims nice yeah then we put under that right so they could see it so clearly we spelled out john 3 16 in our last uh powerpoint slide and so uh that didn't offend them uh they don't believe it but it didn't offend them why
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because we built the whole night around telling them how much we loved and appreciated them we've felt uh badly for them compassionate for them about some of the uh islamophobia that they do experience from people some of the meanness that people can have i mean i know i know young muslim women here in the states that have walked down the street and have had
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Men roll down their windows as they drive by and say, F you, you blankety people, go back to where you came from and all that. So, you know, they've had that. And so when we came and said, we love you, we want to show it, they just ate it up. And then when we shared John 3, 16, they saw that as an expression of love, not of some kind of hardcore proselytizing, you know, thing.
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good morning podcast world welcome back to yet another amazing episode of loving your muslim neighbor this is a book written by timothy and miriam harris on their experiences with sharing the gospel with muslim people guys this is an amazing book thus far and this season in my opinion is going pretty well would you say the same mr tim
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And so I tell you, man, I remember seeing one of the Muslim young ladies a couple of years later. And she said that some of the students, some of the Muslim students that went to that event were still talking about it two years later. Wow.
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Yeah. Yeah. It was a great night, man. It was. And out of that came some cool things like an interfaith dialogue. that was good and also one of the churches on campus that we worked with they began to do service projects with the muslim students uh the christian students and with the muslim students and then they began to invite them even to their small groups and bible studies
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So it was cool, man. So this I Love Muslims Day was a really neat success, we believe, in planting seeds for the gospel and the love of God for these Muslim people.
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That's amazing. That's literally John 3.16 on display, in my opinion. You know, for God so loved the world, and then we have his people showing that love to other people that's not part of the fold. It's amazing. Yeah. All right, so moving into chapter 22, I found this a very interesting title. purses and pens. And then later on in the chapter, you ask, what is your most expensive pen?
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And before we get into this story, I actually want to share what my most expensive pen is. Okay. So, and it's a pen that I did not purchase. Now, if you know me, I like to write and I like nice pens. It's okay. I don't know why I just do. Don't judge me. But My most expensive pin I recently got, and it all stems from back in April 2021. No, 2022, I'm sorry.
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When the Secor Power down here in Louisiana flipped off in the Gulf, we had a wake low that came through, a very bad pressurized storm that came through the area, caused a lot of tides and waves and wind and stuff. And it flipped this platform, if you will.
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And this platform, if if you are not from Louisiana or from our area or understand what the oil field looks like, these platforms have three legs. So when they're going out to sea, they're floating, basically, and the legs go up 192 feet or however high they build the platform.
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So when the vessel gets to the area in which they're going to do work on the oil rig, the legs drop down and bed themselves on the ocean floor, if you will. So the platform is suspended above the water. OK, so, well, this the C Corps, you know, it's it took off. It's going to its job site.
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And this wake low comes through, causes turmoil, if you will, and flips this vessel to which we lost about, I think, 17 people. Very, very, very, very tragic moment. And I think there were four survivors. Don't quote me. I got to go back and look at the articles. Well, I was a juvenile detective at the time for Lafourche Parish Sheriff's Office.
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And during that time, I was also volunteering and kind of heading up the chaplaincy program for the jail. Well, I got dispatched to Port Fouchon as the chaplain representing Lafourche Parish Sheriff's Office. And I was sent there at request of the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard chaplains, they came in. started up everything.
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Well, I know I have enjoyed it so much, Brandon, and counted a great privilege to share with you and your listeners.
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And then when I got there, I'm not going to say I took over because I didn't even want the position. I was going there to assist them, but I got thrown in charge, if you will, to deal with the families as they went and dealt with the divers and the survivors that they pulled out of the water. Well, there was this guy there that had this gold pen. It was brass.
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It wasn't really gold, but it was brass, this brass pen. And I had to write something down. I'm like, hey, can I borrow your pen? So, you know, he gives me the pen. I write down what I have to write down. I'm like, man, this is a nice pen. Let me have it. And he's like, nope. And this went on for two weeks.
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Well, a year later, they just had the anniversary for the C-Core Power, you know, search thing and whatnot. Well, I was not able to attend the ceremony, but one of my old coworkers went and he gave her a gift from me. So I'm like, OK, what possibly can I be getting from? I was I'm just a chaplain, you know, nothing serious, you know, hold on yards.
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Well, she gets to my new place of employment to give me this gift. And she's like, you got to open it. You got to do it in front of me. And I got to take a picture and send it to him and whatnot. I'm like, well, that's cheesy, but I want to open it and see what it is. So I open it up and it's literally it's not the pen that I used.
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Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm hoping that by God's grace that this would actually reach the ears of Muslim people as well.
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It's a brand new pen identical to the one I was using that he gave to me. And I'm like, man, this is almost and if not probably on the same level of respect. Whenever I got a challenge coin from one of the captains in the Coast Guard for my work as a chaplain there. And I got this pen and I did find out how much the pen cost or whatever. But to me, that is my most expensive pen.
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Wow, that's a good story, brother. So why did you name it Pins and Purses?
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Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Yeah, so in 2011, we were back in the Arabian Gulf. So a little different Gulf than you're talking about, right? And so we're back in the Arabian Gulf. And one day, we went to this luxurious mall because this place in the Gulf, as I mentioned in another one of our episodes, some of the countries... in the Arabian Gulf are just so wealthy.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Saudi Arabia, of course, comes to mind, but also Bahrain, Qatar, and Kuwait. They just have so much oil and gas money. So they have very luxurious malls. So one time I just had the idea just popped into my head. Let's go, I said to Miriam, let's go on a scavenger hunt at one of these luxurious malls
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
Oh, that would be that would be great because we love them.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
and because we had seen that uh the men um in that part of the world they loved to have expensive pens and cufflinks and watches and so i said let's go let's go see what we can find for the most expensive pen in this mall so we finally went to one and we went in and they were very kind and they brought out uh they went back to their safe
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
We want them to hear of his love. Oh, that's great, brother. I agree.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Be Like Christ in Hospitality!
and they brought out this gold uh pen swiss a swiss pen not gold in color but gold gold with diamonds on it and this was in 2011. so this is 11 years ago i don't know what it'd be worth now but it was priced at thirty thousand dollars yeah yeah thirty thousand dollars so
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Boy, I tell you, man, that was brother. That was my question. So, yeah, the story is that we had a dear friend, a Muslim guy, a form. I want to say a former Muslim passed away in December of 2014. So almost now, 10 years ago. We had been reaching out to him along with some other followers of Jesus. We'd been reaching out to this guy for at least three years, loving on him, helping him.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
He had bad health, bad kidneys, so he needed a lot of service. So we took him places and just helped him in so many ways, mowed his grass, shoveled snow, cleaned out the eaves of his house, just take him to the doctor, the pharmacy, the
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
iraqi consulate just lots of stuff and ultimately what happened was um he um i was just sharing with him and another friend and i was just sharing once again the gospel and we just shared john 3 16 and he was stunned it was that day brandon it hit him the gospel truth pierced his soul and he said He said, Tim, can you believe it? This verse says that God loves the world.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And that means he loves me, an Arab and a Muslim. And then he went on to say that he said, I thought I had for so long thought that that your Bible only teaches that God loves... He didn't know. He said, I thought your Bible said that God only loves Christians and Jews. And now I believe that the Bible says that God of the Bible loves me. And he put his faith in Jesus, man. It was just...
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
It was dramatic and beautiful and wonderful. And, oh, I was so excited. That was November of 2014, but then maybe October. And then he said right after that, he said, I've got to go back to Iraq to take care of some things related to pension, where I was teaching in a university. And we begged him. not to go because by that time his kidneys were so bad.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And the doctor wanted him to go on dialysis and he wouldn't do it. He had a neighbor that went on dialysis and he said that that person died within a year. And so he was just determined he wasn't going to do it. He was going to, you know, diet and this and that. Well, he did go back to Iraq. And in December, as I alluded to right at the beginning of 2014, he died. He died in Iraq.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
It was just, it was so painful. Apparently, he had taken for so long, he had taken so many painkillers that I think it might have ruined his kidneys or something. I don't know what happened, but he just needed constant blood transfusions after he got over to Iraq. And finally he died. But I want you and your listeners to hear this beautiful thing, man. Oh, my gosh.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
I got to talk to him on the phone when he was in the hospital in Iraq before he died, and he quoted John 3.16 over the phone.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
I mean, it's just, oh, man. I mean... Yeah, I still remember him saying it that day before. Can you believe it, Tim? God loves the whole world. That means he loves me. Beautiful. Yeah, but when he died, oh my goodness. You're asking, why would God let this man come to Jesus and then die soon after entering the kingdom? And I tell you, man, believe me, that was my question of God.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And brother, if I could just share this with you and with your audience, I was so hurt and angry at God. I just was so befuddled, so confused, and just so hurt. And I told God about it, man. I didn't speak irreverently to him, but I guarantee you I spoke honestly to him. And I asked him why. And I just dug into some Psalms and I dug into a Tim Keller book on suffering.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And I'm just so thankful, Brandon, that we have a God that will let us go to him in absolute, complete honesty with our questions and our hurts. And he's big enough to take it and to love us through it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
and and you know we have these people today that they're quote unquote deconstructing right leaving the faith and i think a lot of the problem is when they have questions and hurts they're not going to god with it they're going to other people yep you know and job went to god with his complaints and his concerns and his anguish david
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
went to God and he had those questions that we all ask in suffering sometimes. Why and how long? And we've got Jesus on the cross saying, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Quoting Psalm 22. And so, wow. I mean, I don't know. Man, I don't know why God let him die. I just have no idea to this day. But I know the Bible says that God is good. What he does is good.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
I know the Bible says there's no evil in God. There isn't a shadow of evil in him. And the Bible tells us that God is all wise. He's all loving. He's in control. And so I was finally able to accept that. my friend's death, and leave his soul in the hands of God. I knew he was with Jesus. And, man, so, yeah, I never got the answer. But I did get more intimacy with God through the questions.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Well, let me, if I could tell the story that gave the title to this chapter 39. They wanted to, and he said, arrested me for fasting. It was just funny. You as a law enforcement person. So basically this was in June of 2014. Miriam and I were in Knoxville, Tennessee with some friends and we ate dinner. And then some of the friends said that they wanted some frozen yogurt.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Yes, brother. Oh, man, if you could have seen him, I still remember once we were talking. We had to go to some office, and the man who ran the office where we went was a Muslim. Palestinian Muslims. And my friend Ali, this brand new believer, what does he do? All he knows really at this point is John 3.16.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And he just goes in with me and we're talking to this guy and all of a sudden he just starts sharing John 3.16 with this Palestinian Muslim. I was so proud of him because he just had this joyful, what you said, this peace, He had this childlike faith that was so precious. I love to see new believers, man, in their childlike faith. It's so beautiful and so special.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And I remember saying to him in the car, he got back in the car, I said, man, I said, Ali, I'm so proud of you sharing John 3.16 with that guy. And he said, well, why not? He said, why not? Why shouldn't I? It was just so logical to him.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Oh boy. That's a, yeah. Oh my. Yeah. Oh my. Yeah. It's a, Oh gosh. I'm not laughing. Cause it's humorous. I'm laughing. Cause it's just like, yeah, man. Sometimes you can't, when there aren't any words, sometimes you, you laugh, but yeah, he, This whole thing that you read that quote, though I'm in pain, it has all my attention. They have all my attention.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
He was referring to these videos that we started watching with him called Al-Masirah, which is Arabic for the journey. And they were excellent videos done by Arab believers around the Middle East about the Bible. and how it came to be, and the messages in the Bible from the prophets all the way up to Jesus.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And we were watching that with him, and he was referring to the pain in his kidneys, which I really didn't know. I really didn't know, Brandon, that even at that point, he was slowly dying. Yeah, I wasn't aware of it, but man... the Lord just brought him to himself just right before he died.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And so I guess the more I think about it, instead of being angry with God that he died, I should be so thankful to God that he didn't die without Christ.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Yeah, that God grabbed his heart right before he died. It was so beautiful.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
They saw a place that they had seen before around the corner. So we started walking there, and on the way there, I saw two young men walking. And I could just tell by then, we'd been in Muslim ministry for a while, and I could tell that they were Arabs. And I could tell kind of by their appearances that they were most likely from Saudi Arabia or from Yemen. And so...
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Well, I don't know if you want to do it or not, but that's a perfect segue into segment three, the next chapter, because I can sure tell you about fear and anxiety I had about a mission trip.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
All right, so yeah, the next chapter is chapter 41, and the title of it is, If You Go to Iraq, You Will Never See Your Grandchildren Again. So this ties into the story that you and I were just talking about,
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
it was my friend Ali died as I mentioned in Iraq and I just felt like God gave me in the beginning of 2015 a real strong desire to go to Iraq to meet his family and do two things number one express my sincere condolences for their loss and And number two, share the gospel with them. And so as I began to contemplate that, I heard the clearest voice. I mean, it was not audible, but it was so real.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And the voice said the words that are the title of this chapter, if you go to Iraq, You will never see your grandchildren again. And man, I tell you, Brandon, those words were like they created a real fear because and a deep, profound sadness because and also confusion because I thought, man, God, is this your voice? It doesn't sound scary. Is it your voice just saying, Mark, count the cost?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Because if you go, this is going to be it. So are you willing to go and never see your grandchildren again, knowing that you're going to die on this trip? Or I thought, you know, is it the evil one? Is it Satan that's trying to scare me into not going? And so it was just really hard to discern it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And there were a couple of, it's too long to go into, but this is one of my favorite chapters in the book. I have never, Brandon, in my life before or since known such fear. Wow. Yeah, such fear related to death and to death in a violent way. Because I would say that for years up to that point, I had had a fear of being kidnapped in the Middle East and beheaded.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And I really felt when I heard that voice that that was what was going to happen, that I was going to go to southern Iraq where people don't go. And I remember going to get a visa at the Iraqi consulate, and a Christian was in there, and he said to me—he was a pastor— A Christian pastor from a Christian background, he said, so what are you doing in here?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
You know, because I was the only white guy in there with Miriam. And he said, so why are you in here? I said, well, I'm going to Iraq. And I told him why. And he said, what are you thinking? He said, they'll kill you. He said, I would not go back to Iraq again. for a million dollars. He said, they'll kill you. They have to kill you. It's in their book.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And he literally, Brandon, got up and walked out of the consulate. Wow. It was just the strangest thing. And Miriam and I are looking at each other like, what just happened? Was this guy sent here as a warning? Or was he sent here, you know,
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Miriam and the others went on into the yogurt place. I just said to her, I just want to kind of see if I can get these guys' attention and talk to them. So she went in with the others to the yogurt place, and I just shouted out to these two young men, salam aleikum, or as-salam aleikum, which in Arabic is peace be upon you, something they always say to one another.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
kind of like when Peter told Jesus, pulled him aside when Jesus said he was going to go to Jerusalem and die, and Peter, you know, pulls him aside and says, Lord, this will never happen to you. And Jesus, you know, rebuked him and said, you know, get behind me, Satan. You are speaking about man's interests, not the interests of God.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And it took real time, but Miriam and I prayed about it, and we realized that peter had a human love for jesus and did not want him to die but that human love was getting in the way of god's mission for jesus and this man had a human care for me but it was getting in the way of a calling that god had for me to go to iraq share my condolences and and share the gospel
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And just to finish up that story related to your question about how afraid have I ever been? Well, I went to Iraq, and I was in Jordan the night before I was to fly into Iraq, and I felt incredibly sick to my stomach out of fear. And I called Miriam in the States, and I don't even know what she prayed about. But whatever she prayed for me over the phone, that fear just went down.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
It just totally went away to where I had maybe a little bit of normal anxiety about the unknown, but I didn't have paralyzing fear anymore.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Yeah. And I went to Iraq and my mom, who was at that time in her 80s, she's now about 99. She was about 40. 80 something then. She prayed that while I was in Iraq, that people wouldn't notice me in that city. Brandon, it's the wildest thing. I walked around that huge city of Basra, Iraq, with the relatives of my friend Ali, who died.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And I did not see a single, not just an American, I didn't see a Westerner anywhere. And yet no one ever stared at me, looked at me, nothing. It was like I was invisible, just like my mom prayed. Wow. Yeah. And God took away that paralyzing fear of not just danger, but of death and gave me a peace while I was there.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And I, brother, I got to share the gospel and even give New Testaments in English and Arabic. to my friend's family and his wife's family. It was amazing.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Oh boy, that's such a good question. You know what? One of the most beautiful things he taught me about himself was that just what Paul said, even if we are faithless he remains faithful oh man i mean it was like it was like he was showing me you know tim this fear isn't good you know it's natural it's normal but it's not good it's it's not faith but i love you in the midst of of your fear
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And so these two young men turned around as it happened to be. They were from Saudi Arabia. And they were kind of shocked. They saw this, you know, white guy with kind of white hair. And they're like, you know, who is this dude? And why is he, you know, I mean, is he a Muslim? What is he? Who is he?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
I love you in the midst of you not having the faith that I wish you had and trust in me. And it was just so cool. I mean, I remember I just came home and I got to say that experience of him loving me in my lack of faith, that experience, that whole thing about Iraq, I thought about it every day for a few years.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
It was just so impactful that God would love me even if I wasn't a spiritual giant, even if I didn't have faith and trust in him. He was going to still love me and be faithful. You know, that Hebrew word hesed in the Old Testament, it's a word for loving kindness. It's translated or it's faithful love. It's covenant love. And he proved himself to me that way. So, oh, man. Yeah.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
and so i just said hi and and invited them to join us um you know for yogurt and so they came in and it was just so cool brandon because miriam and i had i don't know maybe it was 45 minutes or an hour of conversation with them probably 40 minutes and it was pleasant conversation but but also it involved some talking about faith ours and theirs and so at one point though
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
when I was asking them more about their lives here, one of them said that he had an experience in Texas the previous year. He was new to the U.S., and he said in his broken English, this was exactly the quote, they wanted to arrest me for fasting. And so I was just like, my brain was just going, okay, now what in the world is he saying? Like,
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Okay, I don't, I've been to Texas, but like, so I just said to him incredulously, what? I said, was it during Ramadan, which is the traditional time when Muslims don't eat, you know, during the day for 30 days, they're fasting as part of their religious faith and rituals. And so, but Miriam was so far ahead of me in understanding what this guy was trying to say. And so finally I got it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
I understood. that the that the police in texas had wanted to arrest him not for fasting but because he was speeding and he didn't know the word for speeding so he just said fasting which It meant driving too fast. And it was just so funny. And then Miriam said, well, how fast were you going? And he said, 120. Oh, goodness. And we and our friends that were there were kind of gasping.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And then he said, well, he said, you know, he wasn't mad at the policeman, you know, or the highway patrolman. He was literally mad at people back in Saudi Arabia because he said nobody explained to him before he came to America that you couldn't go that fast on the roads.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Maybe. I don't know. That's a good. Yeah. But anyway, he got pulled over and he was, you know, told us that story. It was humorous. But and then basically then he his friend sent a text And I just have it here in the book on page 195. He said, hello, Tim. This is Ferris. Sorry if I did bother you this evening.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Just want to say it was really an honor for me to meet a man like you who's trying to understand the difficulties we encounter as people from another country. Now, here's what's convicting to me, Brandon, these next two paragraphs. He said, to be honest with you, I've lived in this country in the U.S. for two years and I have never had a spiritual conversation with an American. Yeah.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And then the second thing he said, his second paragraph was that you and Miriam did not treat me as an alien like most people do. And I was amazed by that. And so, you know, it was it was kind of bittersweet, like, OK, it was sweet that he felt, you know, loved.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
by us, but the part was that in two years, no Christian had ever had ever engaged him in any form of a spiritual conversation and that most people treated him like he was from outer space. You know, yeah, that that definition of of alien. And so, yeah, I mean, I have found that Muslims, international students
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
who come here, they really do think that we will talk to them about our faith because they are Muslims and they talk freely about their faith wherever they are. It's just part of their world all the time. Everything they do in their life is about their faith. Even words, I mean, your listeners might find this odd, but it shows how much their faith is involved in daily part of life.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
They even say certain words in Arabic as they go into the restroom. They even put a shoe on a certain foot first. They have all these sayings and habits, and it's like Leviticus on steroids. And so when they come here, they think we're the same way about our faith, And that we're going to live it and we're going to talk it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
And when we don't say anything about our faith, it's just confusing to them. Because it's like, why wouldn't you talk about your faith? This is part of who we are and what we do. And so that's why I think they come here expecting Christians to talk to them about faith matters.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Well, that one is so easy. The main way to make a Muslim international student feel loved is to invite them to coffee.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
to a meal but ultimately this is it man to invite them to your home or apartment that is huge because um i know that um there's an organization called international students incorporated a great organization on college campuses around the us and their their sole purpose is to introduce
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
get together Christians in communities around campuses, college campuses, with international students so they can meet and so they can show genuine friendship and kindness to the international student and then share the gospel. And I think Bridges International is another group that does this. It's part of CRU.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Campus Crusade for Christ, they have a similar kind of organization to bring international students and Christians near their campus together. And what both of these groups have found is something like it's well over 80% of international students never in their whole time, whether it's two years, four years, six years,
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
PhD, post-doc, whatever it is, well over 80% of international students never make it into an American home. And so, yeah, I think that to answer your question, what do you think would make a Muslim international student feel loved while they're in our country? Get together with them. Hang out with them. Learn about them. Bring them into your life.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
and invite them into your family or your, your friendships. If you're single and, and invite them into your home and feed them and feed them a lot, but also be careful what you feed them.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Right. No pork products, certainly no alcohol and so forth. But yeah, I mean, it's, We tell people in our seminars, we do seminars in churches around the country about Muslim outreach seminars, and we try to help Christians gain some tools. And we just really encourage them. You want to make inroads for the gospel with a Muslim person? It's all about relationship. Yeah.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Are you willing to do, as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 2.8, We were pleased to give you not only the gospel, but our own lives as well.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
yeah that's so good that's so good and and man i mean hey a shout out to you brother i mean i know this isn't what we're gathering together for but thank you for your service in law enforcement because it's it's so needed and uh and you know you and i talked about stereotypes right yeah and so sometimes when when uh somebody in law enforcement does something wrong then people stereotype, right?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
Brandon, thank you so much, man. I'm excited. To be here with you and to just to dive into these stories. Yeah.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Faith Under Fire!
They stereotype people in law enforcement. And we talked about this in the podcast, like nobody wants to be stereotyped. And it's true of Muslims as well. They don't want to be stereotyped as terrorists or as people who are here to take over and get rid of our constitution. Put in Sharia law.
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Faith Under Fire!
They mostly they just they want to come here, have a better life, raise a family, have, you know, kids and grandkids and and die in peace. And so, yeah, they don't want to be stereotyped. And and man, I know you as a law enforcement official, you don't want to be stereotyped in a negative way either.
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Faith Under Fire!
Yeah. Amen. And that's what you're just saying, whether it's law enforcement or it's witnessing, sharing the gospel. Yeah. One size doesn't fit all. Get to know the person. Find out who they are. Yeah.
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Pens, Purses, and Interfaith Encounters!
It is the word of the living God that has to go forth to all the earth. You know, so moving into our line of questioning, if you will, or what I like to call my line of firing. If you were a gun owner, you would know what I'm talking about. So, Timothy, you know, you you share with us last week about your trip to Jordan and how God moved during that time frame there.
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Pens, Purses, and Interfaith Encounters!
Interesting. See, I would have never thought of Dearborn being nothing less than a Muslim culture. And I say that because the EPC at one point was in or near Dearborn, Michigan. Am I right?
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Pens, Purses, and Interfaith Encounters!
But I was wanting to ask this question to you then, but I knew it had to stay within this episode. So should Christians adhere to cultural differences in order to reach the people of that land with the gospel?
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Pens, Purses, and Interfaith Encounters!
Nice. So that leads to my next question, which we just answered it. But I want to hear, I want us to talk about it. The question is, so who is Jesus and why did he come?
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That's amazing. That's that's beautiful. Now, my next question is going to lead to a sighting of Martin Luther. But why must God's word go forth? Why is that is so important that God's word goes forth?
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Yeah, that's the heart of God. Yeah. See, back in April 1517, or actually I think it was 1516, right after Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of Wittenberg, he said, His goal was to get the word of God in the hands of the people so that they could understand who God is and understand God's words for themselves. And one of the things that he told the imperial diet was this.
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Pens, Purses, and Interfaith Encounters!
He said, unless I am convinced by scripture and plain reason, I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils for they have contradicted each other. My conscience is captive to the word of God and I cannot and will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen. And then he goes on to say, here I stand. I cannot do otherwise.
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OK, so God's word has to go forth and we cannot back down whenever adversities come against us or whenever governments go against us for preaching and sharing the gospel, sharing the word of God. You know, we cannot revoke what we know and what we believe in because the word of God depends. Let me rephrase that. Let me not say the word of God depends on it.
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Pens, Purses, and Interfaith Encounters!
The people that need to hear the word of God depend on our strength and our strength comes from God. He is the ultimate provider of our strength. So we can't recant. We can't step down from what we believe in. You know, Timothy, I love what you're doing up there in Dearborn and over in the Middle East is that you're holding on to God's word and you're saying that everybody has to hear this.
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You can find my podcast and other podcasts similar to mine on the Christian Podcast Community at podcast.strivingforeternity.org.
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Amen. And look, I want to close with this because, you know, we are fighting a spiritual warfare. The devil does not want us to go to Muslim people and share the gospel. The devil does not want us to go to anybody and share the gospel. Okay, this is a fallen angel, if you will, that thinks he is going to take over God's kingdom. You are a created creature.
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Pens, Purses, and Interfaith Encounters!
You know, and I want the listeners to know this. The devil is a created creature that is trying to overthrow the almighty God. When I read Ephesians chapter six, verses 10 to 18, I'm not going to read the whole thing. But verse 10, starting at verse 10, it says, finally, be strong in the Lord and all of his mighty power.
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Put on the full armor of God so that you can take a stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against rulers, against authorities, and against powers. For this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil. In the heavenly realms, therefore, put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground.
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And after all you have done and I'm sorry, after you have done everything to stand, stand firm, stand firm. Amen. After you have placed that seed of the scripture in the ear of a lost person, stand firm. After you have shown that person love, even though they have treated you worthlessly as if you're nothing, stand firm. Because God's word does not return to him void.
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Yes, that is so true. And I have nothing else to add. Listen, guys, it is not too late to get a copy of this book, Loving Your Muslim Neighbor. You can order a copy at lovingyourmuslimneighbor.com or you can actually search it on Amazon. Get this book. It's not too late.
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You can still follow along as we go through this season, as we capture the best stories we can from this book to help and be a guide to you as you read along. And in this, stand firm and may God be glorified. And as we stand, we stand on his promises. That's all I have. Thank you so much for joining us. And we look forward to next week with another amazing episode. God bless you all.
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Amen. So that question was born out of, I was reading chapter 19 and you titled it, Where's Your Robe? Can you explain that story to us?
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Yeah. Okay. That's a good explanation. I was thinking more in the line of he's asking where it's a robe, maybe to stone her to death. I know that's a little extreme, but maybe verbally stone her to death, if you will, because she wasn't adhering to the cultural norms of that land, if you will.
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I mean, it was just, you know, the fact that he yelled it to her in English. Obviously, she wasn't from the country.
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Good morning, Podcast World. Welcome back to yet another amazing episode of Loving Your Muslim Neighbor. This series is based on a book written by Timothy and Miriam Harris on their experiences while sharing the gospel among Muslim people. Thank you again for joining us, Timothy. How you doing, buddy?
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Interesting. Simple little thing, you know? Sounds like the angels in a seraphim when they cover, you know, they got six wings, two to cover their face, two to cover their wings, and two in which they flew.
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Absolutely. Now, as I was reading it, I had to go and take a look for it myself. So the chapter in which we're pulling this this story from is on page ninety nine.
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hang on a second it's page 95 it's page 95 96 and also 97 um but on page 97 uh under the question is to ponder it it has a list uh appendix 4 which is on page 289 which is the cultural do's and don'ts in reference to reaching out to muslim people so if you have a You take a look at Appendix 4 if you plan on doing any Muslim outreach in the future.
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So the next question is this, you know, what kind of outreach might be most effective for Christians in other countries that are considered outsiders?
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Yes, this is awesome. This is awesome. You know, as Christians, we should be willing to deliver the gospel just as Martin Luther was when he nailed his 95 theses to the church door of Wittenberg. The gospel, a word of God, has to go forth for all of the earth. I want you guys to hear me when I say this. The gospel is a word of God.
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Right. Now, I want to take you back to your book, Chapter 20, page 99. And it's very, very pointy, if you will. Like it kind of pierces home, if you will. And the title of this chapter is They Have Sharia Law in Dearborn, Michigan, Don't They? Reading this chapter, it's almost like the Muslim is asking the Michiganian, I guess that's how you say it, if there's a Sharia law in Michigan.
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Yeah, yeah. So Muslims, you know, first of all, they are not allowed to question their faith. It's just not allowed in their religion of Islam. They can't, if they have doubts about the Quran or doubts about Muhammad or
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uh doubts about what the imam the leader in the mosque about what he says or preaches on fridays they're not allowed to question it in a way that is is in any way a challenge they cannot that's just not allowed and so when when the when the when we gave this um chapter 37 its title many muslims are secretly seeking that's why They can't openly question and ask questions.
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It's the honor is totally all mine, brother. Thank you for having me again.
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They have to search secretly. And so I remember, I mean, we put it in the book that we were coming back from the Middle East on a jet in March of 2013, and I was wearing a shirt I would never wear in the Middle East, but we were working with an English-speaking international church, and we would go there for about two months at a time, Miriam and I,
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And there was a precious family from Mexico that we just loved. And on our last day that we were there on that trip, they wanted to take us out to eat. And then their young son gave me a shirt. And it had John 316 in big letters on the back. And so I wore it to honor him. They took us to the airport, and I wore it into the airport, and I wore it on the plane.
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Now, I don't recommend wearing witness gear in the middle of the Middle East. I think there are better ways to witness than a shirt. But I remember on the plane, I got up to go to the restroom, and a man on the plane said, A Muslim man, he just kind of stopped me as I was going down the aisle. And he said, excuse me, sir, I saw your shirt. Could I have five minutes of your time?
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And so I remember I just said, yes, I'll be back. And I went to the restroom. Then I went and sat down by Miriam and I said, listen, please pray because I don't know. where this guy's coming from. I don't know if he's radical. I don't know if he's angry. I don't know what he was respectful in the question, but please pray for me to have wisdom.
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And I sat down with this man and it was just, it was so beautiful brand. And he, he basically said that he really was searching for truth, but it, but it was a secret search. It wasn't something that he could share with other people. And I was so fascinated, brother. He had even read one of Tim Keller's books. Wow.
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Yeah, I don't remember which one it was, but I just so happened in the providence of God to have with me Keller's book, The Prodigal God. And so I gave that to him. And we exchanged emails. And so he's just one example. Here's another example of a seeking, secretly seeking Muslim. So we're blessed to travel a lot to the country of Jordan and work with refugees from Syria, Iraq, and Yemen.
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And a few years ago, we met this delightful couple from Baghdad, Iraq. And this man, Sammy, and his family were refugees, you know, there in Jordan and trying to immigrate to, you know, Western country. And we asked him what his story was. How did he because he had become a follower of Jesus from a Muslim background. And I love to hear these stories.
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And so Sammy said, well, he said, I was I went to the mosque, to a mosque in in Baghdad. And I heard the imam, for your readers, that's the leader of the mosque, the teacher. I heard him in the mosque speak favorably about Isa. Now, Isa is the Arabic word that Muslims use for Jesus that is in the Quran. And so he read as much as he could find about Jesus in the Quran, and he was intrigued by
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and he wanted more he was he was thirsty he was hungry but he had to be careful and somehow some way i don't remember what he said somehow he got a new testament in arabic and he read it voraciously to learn as much as he could about this messiah this this jesus and and then he became a follower of jesus
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And oh my goodness, I wish that your listeners could just witness the love for Jesus that filled his soul. And he had such a childlike wonder that it was hard for him to contain it, that he had been in Iraq a secret seeker and then a secret believer. And when we say a secret believer, it doesn't mean they don't tell anyone about Jesus, but it does mean that
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that they are careful, they try to be wise and judicious in who they share with. And so, yeah, that's just two examples. But yes, there are definitely Muslims right now around the world who are secretly seeking and wanting truth.
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You know, I think it goes back to that real old saying, it's been around for decades. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And as my dear wife, Miriam, says to me very often, her love language is that I listen to her. And I, wow, after 46 years, I'm still learning and still often failing at listening. But listening means love. Listening means caring.
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Listening means the other person is important and valuable. And so not only should we do that with Our loved ones, but in this case, in evangelism, listen to them. Find out, you know, ask questions. And in our book, in the appendices, we have a lot of questions that followers of Jesus can ask Muslims just to get to know them, just as people, as fellow humans.
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made in the image of God, and then other questions that are conversation starters regarding faith. Yeah. And so, yeah, sometimes people just want to unload biblical truth all at once and The eye of that Muslim person is usually going to get their eyes are going to glaze over because, yeah, it's just.
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I can't imagine that really.
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Yeah, such a such a good question, Brandon. So the basically the background that of that question is. the whole idea of being sadder over a lost game than a lost soul, the background of it is that I'm a huge football fan. I love college, but especially pro football.
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Muslim refugees that have become dear friends to us in our city, in the Midwest. And in the beginning, when I was with the very first one that came here. And then it was just a succession of relatives and friends who followed him. But I remember when I first met him, I would have my phone in my hand.
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And when I would ask him questions about his life, I would be typing notes in my notes of my phone about his life. And he was struck by it. And so he went to a Christian man that he really respected at the restaurant where they both work. And he asked the Christian man, he said, can I trust Timothy and Miriam? This Christian man, he's also Arab, but he's a Christian.
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He said, you can trust them with your lives. And so, yeah. And so so then he came back to me and he said, he said, OK, Tim, he said, I don't you can take as many notes as you want. And he said, because because I had two people telling me different things about you. One was that some of the Muslims that I I was around and worked with and for were.
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said that Tim is probably either with the FBI or CIA. And that's why he is asking so many questions and taking so many notes. But the Christian told him, no, that's just the way he operates. He wants to get to know you. And he takes notes so that he can remember more about you. So the next time you talk,
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He can ask you about your three kids back home or your wife or, you know, your mom, all those things. And so, yeah, so listening, you want to you want to listen well, ask a lot of questions, but make sure they know that you're if you do take notes, it's just because you care about them. It's not to be not because you're trying to because refugees are afraid.
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I mean, and immigrants are often afraid. They're worried about law enforcement or something. They're worried about getting kicked out, being deported or whatever. And they've come from repressive governments. They've come from places where maybe they, like our friends, they protested the despots, the terrible dictators in their countries. And because of it, they were all thrown in prison.
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And so they can be real hyper here when people ask a lot of questions.
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And I was blessed to do maybe four or five chapels for the Atlanta Falcons football team when they came to Michigan to play the Detroit Lions. Nice. Yeah, it was just fantastic. It was so great. And and so because of that, I got to know some players and actually they would always give us free tickets.
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Yeah, I was just talking to a Christian friend about this today, because he very often will give... you know, a Bible or a Christian tract, you know, a little booklet with the gospel in it to people, you know, kind of everywhere he goes. And what I have found, and I like that, I'm not against it. I think, you know, God has used tracts to bring people to himself through the ages and he still will.
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But what I have found is I don't want to give my Muslim seeker friends anything in writing, usually,
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Because that means that they have to take it to their apartment where they live with several other Muslims that they work with and they're related to and so it might look like They're a seeker and and one of the other Muslims might really take offense Might report them to someone and it can cause big issues for them. So what I'd rather do is is I like to say they love WhatsApp, our friends.
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And so what I like to do is send them specific Bible verses in English and in their heart language of Arabic to them to pique their interest about what the Bible says about God and then bring it down to what the Bible says about Jesus. So I find that one of the best resources to use with Muslims is just have the Bible app on your phone.
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So when you send a message to your friend, you can copy and paste a verse right out of English and then Arabic and send it to them. And so use that. And even if they want to, help them download that app on their phone so that they can read or even listen to the Bible in their own language.
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Yeah, and when we do get to the appendices, as you mentioned, there are just a ton of resources that we put in the appendices, from websites to blogs to YouTube videos, books, just lots and lots of things that can help you grow in reaching out to Muslims, but also things you can actually give to a Muslim.
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Again, I prefer the Word of God in and of itself, but there are good booklets and good books and good websites. I mean, for example, there's a website about more than one that's about Muslims having dreams and visions of Jesus.
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And so they can go there and they can a Muslim can go to that website and see the testimonies, videos, testimonies of Muslims from various countries talking about how they became followers of Jesus, because in part they had a dream or vision of him.
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They would the night before the game when I did the chapel, they'd invite us to eat with the players. And so I would take one son each time. And so, you know, it was just so cool for for me and for our sons to meet these, you know, larger than life pro football players on TV. And so it came about that there was a game in January of 2013, and the Falcons could win it.
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So many, like you said, brother, so many resources.
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Yeah, so, boy, we I mean, Miriam and I certainly don't you know, we don't have expert insight into the psyche of radical Muslims or fundamentalists. But we know in their minds, their hatred for us is justified because, for example, of perceived injustices that they feel they've suffered. So, for example, invasion or occupation of their lands. So the whole thing with the Iraq situation.
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Another issue that they have is, I mean, it's just undeniable that the immorality that comes out of the West and just covers the globe. And it's portrayed openly in Hollywood movies and television. And so they hate that. It creates a hatred in them for the West and for Christianity. And then you add on the older complaints that they have about the exploitation of colonialism and
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And even going back even further to the atrocities of the Crusades, and add into this whole mix of this terrible mix, the teachings of jihadist leaders, clerics, teachers in mosques, you just have a perfect recipe for the development of a terrorist mindset. So Those are some reasons why some, and I really want to just say some with all capital letters, some Muslims hate us.
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We have found, and we have met, golly, in 17 years, I think it's probably fair to say we've met thousands of Muslims. And we look in their eye, we get a real feel, and we think most Muslims do not hate Americans. They don't all like our politics, but they don't hate us as people.
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Yeah, really. And so but I do think, you know, a better question, as you just asked, brother, why do Muslims hate us? A better question to ask is, is like, why don't we as Christians love Muslims more? Hmm. why don't we as Christians love Muslims more?
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And so, yeah, I mean, in the book we referred to, I don't know if your readers will remember, but the Boston Bombers, as they were known in 2013, a terrible terrorist bombings at the Boston Marathon by two
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young uh they were chechens muslim extremists and it just made huge news around the world and and i remember you know i i think we need to ask this question um instead of just why do they hate us okay it's good to ask that question but again a better question or a more important one is were there any christians who reached out in genuine jesus-like kindness
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to those two Chesnian brothers who came here and killed people that day? Were there any Christians who reached out in kindness, in friendship? And we know that one of them said no, because he was reported as saying in 2010, three years earlier, quote, I don't have a single American friend. I don't understand them, close quote. And so isn't that just tragic?
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I mean, the bombing is obviously tragic, but it's also tragic that this young man said he never had an American friend, which means obviously then that he never had an American Christian friend that could really show kindness. And who knows what might have happened? And so, yeah, man, these are hard questions to ponder. Yeah.
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as time was running out, if they made the field goal. And so I just found myself, I still remember it in our living room. I was on my knees praying as the kicker approached the ball, as he was getting ready to try to attempt the field goal. I'm on my knees praying for him and for the team. And I told a gentleman in our organization, our missions agency, I told him about this.
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Yeah, I mean, I think that it reminds me of one of our heroes. I don't know if you ever heard of Brother Andrew. who wrote the famous book. He wrote a lot of books before he died a couple of years ago, but probably his most famous book was called God's Smuggler. He used to smuggle Bibles into the former Soviet Union. Yeah, it was just wild.
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And then later he shifted from the communist world, his ministry, to the Muslim world. And I want to read a quote by him, if I could, from the book. He said, just what you said. What's your first thought when someone offends you? Is it anger? Is it indignation? If we're honest, perhaps our hearts even want to see some kind of retaliation or revenge. But he says, you know, Jesus is clear.
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Revenge is not the answer. Love is, especially when it comes to the Muslim world. And then is it OK if I finish up what he says about, you know, how do we respond to a terrorist attack?
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OK. He said, that's why. instead of retaliating when we read of a bomb attack, I suggest our response should be, get this, repentance. Isn't that something? And then he elaborates, repentance that we have not prayed, we have not cared, have not gone to the Muslim world to proclaim the true life and freedom we have in Jesus.
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And then he says, let's keep asking God to truly change hearts, that we might love, serve, and pray more fervently for the advancement of his kingdom and the glory of his name in the Muslim world and beyond. Amen. Yeah. Wow. So when you hear of a terrorist attack, I have never heard anybody say that
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that our first response should be um one of one of our first responses besides of course praying for the victims would be to pray a prayer of repentance that that on behalf of the christian world maybe like that the the terrorist in the boston marathon uh event he said i never i didn't have a single american friend and that causes me to think wow we need to repent lord we
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we did not reach out to that young man with any kindness, with a welcome to our country, with bringing him into our home, with feeding him, with finding out more about him. I mean, who knows what might have happened if someone would have befriended him. And so, yeah, I love Brother Andrew and his response. When we hear about a terrorist attack,
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One, not the first, but one of our first responses should be repentance on behalf of the body of Christ that perhaps no one witnessed to that terrorist who brought that terrible suffering to the world.
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Oh, boy. So, yeah, I think that the reason why most Christians don't, the thought of loving a Muslim is very foreign to them. And I think the reason for that primarily is because they don't know any Muslims. We have found that people, Christians who know Muslims are not nearly as afraid to They're certainly not as ignorant about who they are. And so they just view Muslims differently.
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Lost Souls, Seeking Muslims, and Responding to Tragedy!
They view them as lost, but also made in the image of God. And so, yeah, I think the other thing is that we stereotype. And so because of 9-11 and terrorist attacks here and there and lots of things like that, so many Christians put all Muslims in the same basket and label them all as terrorists.
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And he literally said, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. Wow. Yeah, yeah. And so he's an older man that I have such giant respect for. In fact, this guy has helped start three different missions agencies. And he has recruited – literally hundreds of people to go to the mission field. And so I said, what's the deal, man? Why are you rebuking me like this?
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Oh, no. You're saying we have something in common with the criminals.
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And with the Muslims, too. Same reason. Same thing.
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Lost Souls, Seeking Muslims, and Responding to Tragedy!
Oh, yeah. Amen, brother. And, you know, one line from a man that we hugely respect that was a professor at Columbia University. um in south carolina the school he said um regarding terrorists you know when when people were just asking him why do they do what they do and and i remember one woman getting so angry
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at the speaker, she called them those people, meaning those Muslim terrorists, and why did they do it? She just was shouting him down, and he just looked down, and I saw that he just kind of got emotional, like he was about to cry, and he just softly said, it just goes to show how much they need Jesus. And so when we think about
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Terrorism or anything like that, you know, like Brother Andrews said, repentance is a great response on our part, but also just this whole concept of their lostness that this other man said from Columbia International. He said it just goes to show how much they need Jesus. And if we think how much, you know, hey, we needed Jesus. We were lost.
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um we couldn't save ourselves um we deserved hell and so yeah may these thoughts fill our hearts more with compassion than than with fear and and amen and the bottom line in the end right is just what you said the sovereignty of god we we have to trust in that as we witness and share jesus with our muslim friends
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And he said, you know, I am a big Philadelphia Eagles football fan. And one time they lost a game. And I just felt like that, you know, I was real despondent about it. And I just sensed the Lord was saying to me, you are sadder over a lost game than a lost soul.
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And he said he vowed that he would never again allow himself to be sad like that after a game for more than five minutes after a loss by the Eagles.
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Yeah, and so those words, they just hit home for me. And so that's where the title of the chapter comes. came from. And to answer your question, you know, how much do we as Christians really care about lost people?
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Man, I mean, I just want to be so careful in my answer because, number one, I don't want to be prideful and act like, you know, I'm better than others because God has given me a real passion for lost people. But in general, I would say that
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So much of the church that I see in the U.S., I mean, it's not like I'm an expert on the church capital C in the West or in the U.S., but what I see a lot of is that people want to kind of use Christianity to just have a better life.
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And as the book title says, Your Best Life Now, you know, huge bestseller, gigantic. Well, who doesn't want to have their best life now, except that Jesus said, if you want to follow me, you need to deny yourself and take up your cross daily and follow me. And so a cross isn't isn't, you know, in the normal sense of the term, your best life. It's your worst life.
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And yet he knows that unless you take up your cross, unless you die to yourself, you will never have the abundant life that we all, you know, we all would treasure, we all would like. So I just feel like most folks, they want Jesus, they want heaven, but they don't want to pay a price to follow him, and they don't care that much in general about lost people.
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And if I could even touch on, step on a few toes, you might not have me back for another segment, but I think you're going to know where I'm coming from on this. I think, you know, I love how you say about your podcast that it's Reformed. And that is great, and it's so important. And, you know, I'm in the same denomination as you, and so I love so much about Reformed theology.
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But I do see in some Reformed people that they believe so much in election— and predestination as it's spoken about in in the bible and and i'll go specifically to romans 9 through 11. now what they're not seeing there also is that as we spoke about in the last uh your last episode they're not seeing those words of that same apostle
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uh paul who said that he basically is in agony because of the lostness of the jewish people wow his heart is just in he he says it's an anguish in one translation and so i think that if our theology is lowering our temperature for evangelism there's something wrong with our theology
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Amen. Amen. And I love that last thing you put on there, brother, for the sake of his name, because, you know, as you and I have discussed in the last episode and kind of we're alluding to it now about hell, I would say that for many years that my main motive in witnessing and sharing the gospel with people was was so that people would not go to hell. That was my kind of highest motivation.
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It's what drove me, because Jesus speaks about hell, and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, he says, I'm in agony in this flame. It's horrible. But that is no longer my primary goal. reason for evangelizing. It's what you said just a minute ago. It's about the glory of God. Yeah. Yeah.
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And I love, brother, in the end of Isaiah 53, we all know so many verses in that chapter, but I love in the end of Isaiah 53 that it's referring to the Messiah and And that it says he will see his offspring and he will be satisfied. Oh, man. Now that now is my number one motive. The glory of God the Father and the satisfaction, the joy, the fulfillment of Jesus Christ.
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in seeing people come home, enter the kingdom, and be with Him for eternity. And so now that's my, that's, you know, that's ultimate. My desire that they not go to hell is penultimate. But ultimate, it's what you refer to the glory of God, and then from Isaiah 53, the satisfaction of Of Jesus in seeing his offspring.
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Oh, man. Yeah, that is a convicting, convicting question. Yeah. Wow.
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Speaking of, you know, I will I do want to add real fast that on page 181 of the book, we we we kind of finish that chapter by referring again to Jesus entrance. into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, and most Christians hear sermons on the triumphal entry, but not the tearful entry.
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I've never heard a sermon on the tearful entry of Jesus into Jerusalem, because it says in Luke 19, 41, when he drew near and saw the city of Jerusalem, he wept over it. And I did just a little Greek study of weep or wept. And it means to sob, to weep aloud, to express an uncontainable, audible grief. It even suggests a heaving of the chest, a sob and cry of a soul in agony. So, yeah, I mean...
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Wow. This was the heart of Jesus for Jerusalem that he knew was mostly going to reject him.
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yeah amen brother and and as i alluded to in a in a previous episode i mean again i love that the song that's just called hosanna and and that line in it uh that we must not uh sing glibly you know we we can sing praise songs worship songs hymns and just kind of say the words sing the words but not really think about them but in that song that phrase
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break my heart what breaks yours and and i just want to say to your to your listeners if you if you've ever prayed or sung those words watch out because your prayer just might be answered in a way in which your heart truly is broken and and your whole world is just changed and turned upside down for the kingdom
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So for this man to say in Arabic and then be translated to us in English, you know, my door is open. The door is open. It was like and my friend who's been with him for 10 years, he could tell and he could sense, you know, this was this was real. And so we've just. Yeah. Hey, can I tell you a couple more stories? Yeah, absolutely.
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Okay, brother. Well, so one of the great things that this organization is doing is they're not just about community development and physical assistance or even seeing Muslims embrace Jesus as Savior. They are also very much about discipleship. So, for example, I was blessed to go. One of the leaders asked me, he said, can you do an overview of the book of numbers on Thursday?
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And I was I don't know about you, but I'm thinking numbers like when was the last time I'm kind of embarrassed. When was the last time I read numbers? So I got on. I used at the hotel. The night before, I jumped on the Internet on my phone and I looked up the Bible Project, you know, and I looked up their overview of numbers and it was excellent. And and they also have it in Arabic. So, yeah.
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So we were able to play that. They have this center for refugees. And so 18 men came in. They were all from Iraq.
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including one former muslim man that they call nicodemus because he was saved at night wow yeah so with these 18 men brandon it was so cool that i got to do an overview of um the book of numbers with them and ask them questions you know instead of just lecturing really ask them questions
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And there's so many great stories in there and instructive stories about, you know, the people complaining, the immorality that's talked about. Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians 10. These things were written as instructions for us and how God punished the people. And the people were bitten with snakes, for example. And Moses was instructed to to, you know, create a serpent to put on a pole.
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And if people would look at that serpent, they'd be healed. And Jesus, of course, referred to that as he then shared John 3, 16, as we know it with Nicodemus. And so it was just so cool to do this overview of numbers. And then the following Tuesday, we took these 18 Iraqi men to Mount Nebo, which is not far from Amman, Jordan, the capital.
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to Mount Nebo, which looks over, of course, Israel and Palestine. And we went up there and did more discipleship with them up there and related to stories from Moses and how Moses wasn't allowed to go into the promised land. And we went into reasons for that. And the most endearing memory I have
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Yeah. So just a little background. Um, my wife and I have been going to the middle East since around 2005 and And in 2000, and I think it was 2012, we met this amazing group of men in the country of Jordan. They have their own NGO. These guys are Arab Christian men really devoted to Jesus. And their ministry really is to help refugees that come to Jordan, refugees primarily from Syria
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Brandon of being up at Mount Nebo with these 18 Iraqi men was that that one of those 18, as I mentioned earlier, was from a Muslim background. He went up to there's a there's a large sculpture on top of Mount Nebo. And it's it looks like it's the shape of a cross. It's so cool. And there's like a sculpture like of a serpent wrapped around it.
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And on the bottom of it, it has those verses from John three about, you know, if they would look up at that serpent that that God had provided through Moses, they would be healed.
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and then god so loved the world and gave his son and so we were everybody all these tourists were there and they were all doing these photo ops up by this sculpture of this kind of cross with the serpent this man this man we call nicodemus that was a former muslim he went up there to get his picture and and brandon it was so moving and endearing he knelt down
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beside it, he got on his knees and embraced it with his arms and looked up to the top at the serpent. And it was just like, man, this guy gets it. This guy was symbolically looking at Jesus as his salvation, as his healing from, you know, the snake bite, the serpent bites of sin and Satan and of hell.
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And so what a memory we had of discipling these 18 men in Numbers, the book of Numbers, and then going up to Mount Nebo and then seeing this former Muslim man just embracing the sacrifice of Jesus for him.
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Oh, wow. Well, I certainly did see Revelation 3.20, as I mentioned earlier, with the man Mustafa. I mean, that if we hear, you know, Jesus knocking on the door, and I said to him, brother, you know, I said, Mustafa, he's been knocking on your door a long time. Let this be the day. for you. Don't keep putting it off. And I felt led to challenge him. So I saw that verse really in reality.
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I think I saw there was a woman that we saw on an earlier trip. Miriam just really had developed a connection with this woman very quickly. She's a woman that lives
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in a village in jordan she's the only she was a muslim all her life she became a believer and she's the only believer in her village wow and yeah and her brother is the muslim leader of the mosque of their village and so it's hard for her she wears this little cross underneath her her scarf for her job she's a bit of a secret believer but she started to share with people well we um
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We gave money to the organization we worked with to bring her into Amman, the capital from her village, which is quite a ways away. So we could just sit down and see how she was doing. And she was depressed. She was lonely. And as we listened to her, I just felt like that it was just so clear. I mean, this woman is spiritually starving.
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She's a believer, but she's kind of a baby and she doesn't she's not getting she's not getting milk, let alone meat spiritually. Yeah. And and so, you know, those scriptures about how important it is for someone, you know, in Colossians, let the word of Christ dwell in you richly or fully abundantly. Well, she's not getting that. She's not getting someone. to teach her the word.
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And in the book of Hebrews, you know, let's don't forsake the assembling of ourselves together. She's not getting that. And so I was able to work with our friends again, and they said, listen, we've got to start getting her into our city, you know, like once a week at least, or once every two weeks, every two weeks at least, for discipleship.
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and uh we can't go to her because she it's too hard in the village people will see it but we can bring her here and and so those things can happen in her life and so we sat with her served her communion it was only the second time she's ever had it she's getting ready to be baptized and and then this was a fun thing uh brandon She carries this phone that's literally falling apart.
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She has to use twine to kind of tie it to hold it together.
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Cell phone? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was just like this piece of old, I don't know what, you know. And so I said to our friends at the Christian NGO, I said, Miriam and I, Miriam wasn't with me on this trip, but I said, I can speak for her.
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can we go to a cell phone store right now and buy this woman a nice phone and so we didn't have to walk too far and we got her a nice uh samsung galaxy and now she can she can text she can watch christian um you know videos um on youtube she can hear sermons uh she can receive pictures and so oh she she was so joyful.
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but also from Iraq and Yemen. And so, Brandon, what they do is they just really help these refugees in super practical ways. You know, like, let's say it's the wintertime. These people have no money, so they need blankets. They need little stoves, little kerosene heaters, stoves, and kerosene itself. They just need so many things. In the summer, it can be sweltering. They need fans.
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She made a little video in Arabic with our friend translating in English for my wife that I sent back to thank Miriam for this amazing gift. And yeah, I mean, so the scriptures there are just that she's not getting, you know, Peter says like, like babes long for the sincere milk of the word. Well, she's doesn't have someone to teach her.
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And so we're getting that set up and then don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together. So we're getting that, those things set up for her now better than ever.
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Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you, brother. I mean, I think, I think the phrase is, is good to be used. If you use it like in the book of James, um,
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and and that's where he's speaking to people who are kind of arrogantly insulating or isolating themselves from god well james says you shouldn't say you're going to go to so-and-so a city and do business you should say if god wills we'll do that well he's speaking to people who just want to have their own plans
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And they're not acknowledging God in their lives as being important to how they live out their daily lives. But yeah, we can also use it as an excuse, like if God wills. Yeah. And so I get what you're saying. And.
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hey can i share i want to share something that's not maybe as serious as those other stories but maybe one of my favorite memories of any of my trips to the middle east i'd love to share a short story about this trip uh to jordan with you let's hear it all right here we go so these refugees as i keep mentioning they're from syria they're from iraq and they're from yemen um
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The Syrians are allowed to legally work in Jordan, but it's hard for them to find jobs. And sometimes they're not paid well, or sometimes people withhold their pay because they're kind of at the mercy of people there as refugees. The Iraqis and Yemenis cannot work there legally. So they get paid under the table, they find jobs, but they can be shipped back to their
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their countries if they're caught working. So one of the things that just came to my mind when I was out with a Syrian family, it's really funny. This guy, when I first met him, Brandon, he had two wives and seven kids. He was a Muslim, but he was so interested in the Lord. And he has since become a very committed believer in his second wife left him when he became a believer.
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But yeah, but he keeps growing in Christ, but he just struggles. I mean, Brandon, you know, while we're sitting in his apartment, just fellowshipping, we took him some food. We're listening to his story in walks. The guy comes and knocks on the door. That's the guy that handles the electricity. Well, our friend,
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Our dear Christian friend from a Muslim background was like three months behind in his electricity and two months behind in his rent. And so just he just felt so much pressure and he works, but he had developed sciatica. And so he had terrible back and leg issues and he was he couldn't work for weeks. And so he got behind and weeks or I think maybe a month or two at least.
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And they need help often with rent and with food and just everything. So what I do when I go over, and Miriam, when she can go with me, we just hang out with these refugees. We go to their homes. We take them food. We sit with them. We listen to their stories. And then with the leading of these three groups, Arab Christian men, we share the gospel as opportunities arise.
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And so as we're talking to him, I could just see this weight on him. And so we conferred our little team and we said, hey, we're going to we're going to pay for this. You know, we're going to take care of this. And it was like his spirit just lifted. And then the idea came to me and I said to him, have your children ever been to McDonald's? And because there's there are McDonald's in in Jordan.
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And he said, no, I mean, you know, it was kind of a I know it was kind of a stupid question because it's like, you know, how am I going to take my kids to McDonald's when I can't pay my electricity and rent? And I said, I would like to take you and your family to McDonald's tonight. If you're if you can if you can get there, he said.
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he said oh he was so appreciative but he said i don't even have money for a taxi so we gave him money for a taxi and uh and and brandon it was so amazing to sit and watch this man and his family at mcdonald's his children never been there and it was pretty obvious when they ate these large sandwiches that they were hungry They don't have that much food.
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And so we did that with this dear friend from Syria. And then there's another man, another family. They're from Yemen. And this man works in the hotel where I often stay. And he invited me over to his home. And I went, had a great time with them. And then I said to him...
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have your has your family ever been to mcdonald's well of course it was the same thing i mean no i have he said once but my wife's never been my four kids never have i said can i take you tomorrow night and and and we did man i took them and you know to see the looks on their faces as they ate food in there and then i remember seeing him at the hotel the next day after we went and he just said my family is so happy today
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you know, about going to McDonald's. And so, you know, I want to tell your listeners that obviously we need to be careful with how we do quote unquote charity. I mean, there's books on when helping hurts and toxic charity and all that. But sometimes just doing a simple thing for someone like that, it just means the world to them and they'll never forget it.
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And in the case of the Muslim guy from Yemen, it's just another way to open the door to his heart, to the gospel. Because Muslim people aren't doing these kinds of things for him, but we are, you know, we are.
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And so those are maybe not super deep stories, but to take two families, refugee families separately to McDonald's was one of the funnest and most fulfilling things I've done on a mission trip.
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before you go on any mission trip, or even, as you said, just spending time with people from another culture here, I'd love to recommend a book to your listeners that we really believe in as it relates to short-term trips. I may or may not have mentioned this earlier, but we have a little book that we use called Before You Go. It's a 40-day devotional guide for short-term mission trips.
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And it's written by a guy named Jack Hempling, H-E-M-F-L-I-N-G. It's an amazing little book. And he goes into a lot of the cultural do's and don'ts before you go on a mission trip. But yeah, man, you are so right. If you just do anything to learn something,
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a few words in the language of the people you're going to be with whether it's people here or overseas if you do learn some things about um i remember you talking about related to scouts about you know taking off your shoes yes before you went in yeah uh and you said you know i could have been a snarky american said hey i'm an american man i'm not taking off my shoes for these muslim guys to go into their place well
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Well, Jordan is a really wonderful country and by and large, super safe. People always say, are you afraid to go there? No, Jordan is very safe, and the king and the government there have done a good job of that. And so the lay of the land is really, you've got a country that is almost half Palestinian people since 1948 when they fled. Basically, as Israel was being started, they fled.
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you know i mean jesus philippians 2 said he emptied himself right he emptied himself to come and be part of our culture and live in our world and sacrificed everything to do that and so Yeah, I think for you and for me and for all of your listeners, we absolutely do need to learn cultural do's and don'ts as it relates to any people group in order to reach them for the gospel.
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Amen. When you said the word has to, I love, we all know John 3.16, but not many people have thought much of John 10.16, where Jesus said, I have other sheep which are not of this fold. In other words, they're not, it's not just the Jewish people. I have other sheep outside the
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uh the jewish people and then jesus said i must bring them also and so yeah there's just this jesus was compelled this beautiful compulsion and and paul said it too right to the corinthians the love of christ compels us um and so yeah there's there is a it's i think uh evangelism and missions It's so beautiful when it changes from a duty to a delight. Absolutely.
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You know, like Jesus said in John four to his disciples when they came back and they went to buy food and and he said, you know, he didn't didn't need any. And they're thinking like, who gave him food? And he said, I have food to eat that you guys don't yet really understand. You don't know anything about my food is to do the will of my father. Well, what was it?
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Well, in that case, clearly it was evangelism. He was evangelizing the Samaritan woman. And when she received what he gave her of this living water that he talked about, and she ran off to tell everyone, that was so fulfilling to Jesus, such a delight that he likened it to food.
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They had to get out. And then many more people. So you've got a country that's about half Palestinians. And then you've got the Jordanians. And then you've got this incredibly huge influx of these refugees from the civil war in Syria. And then all the issues that have happened in Iraq with ISIS, with Al Qaeda and many other groups.
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And then you've got the Yemenis flooding in now more because of the civil war there. So it's a safe country. It's a crowded country. It's a poor country. They don't have oil and gas. They don't even have much water. But we just love the country. It's very raw. It's very, you know, down to earth. It doesn't have the kind of pretentiousness that you find in the Gulf countries.
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Countries when we have traveled there like Qatar or Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, it doesn't have that kind of wealth or outward beauty and money. So it's just a down-to-earth country with down-to-earth wonderful people.
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Yes, very much. There are Christians for sure. And there are some churches, uh, but it is not legal there to convert from being a Muslim to, uh, being a Christian to becoming a Christian. It's that is that gets somebody in big trouble. Wow.
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Okay. So yeah, community, some of its community development and, and definitely assistance. Absolutely.
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Oh, absolutely. There are many, many missionaries right now in Jordan. Normally you need, you know, something to do there. You can't just go there and live. Although we do have a friend. This is funny, Brandon. He has lived there for over 25 years on a tourist visa. And so he has to leave every I can't remember if it's every six months or a year. I think it's six months.
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He just has to go out of the country and come back in. It's kind of a visa issue. And so he's actually lived there that long on a tourist visa. But you can also go there. There are many Westerners, including, of course, Americans that are in Jordan studying Arabic so that they're just trying to figure out if God wants to call them to that part of the world or they do already feel a calling.
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to that region. And so they, of course, need to learn Arabic to be able to be lights for Jesus there.
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By and large, no. I mean, they mostly speak Arabic. There are some folks that uh speak some english some of the jordanians themselves but the refugees um usually they don't they don't speak much uh english at all and these are refugees coming from other countries for to seek yeah okay yeah those three countries primarily syria iraq and yemen okay
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Yeah, yeah. I'd love to tell you some stories. In fact, right here, sitting in front of my computer, just looking at pictures from this trip, because I always take a lot of pictures. I love pictures. And yeah, so... Let me back up a minute and just say that the way that this NGO, this Christian NGO works is that they do help people with their material needs.
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But Brandon, what happens, and it's so cool, is that very often these refugees will say to them, and of course, again, these men are Arab Christians, so they can speak Arabic with these refugees. But these refugees are Muslims, and they'll say to them, hey, why are you helping us? You know, you're not a Muslim.
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And many times they'll say, you know, the mosques or the Muslims here in Jordan aren't helping us, but you're Christians and we don't understand why you're helping us. And then these men that we love so much, these Christian Arab men that run this this NGO, this non-government office, you know, organization, they share the gospel, but they're careful. They do it.
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bit by bit, piece by piece, and really as they're led by the Holy Spirit. So here's a story for you, brother. I wanted to share a few short stories, but the first one is a Syrian man that was a taxi driver when he lived in Syria. He's been in Jordan now for 10 years, waiting with his large family to try to make it to the U.S., Canada,
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Australia or whatever he was a taxi driver in again in Syria and he was tortured by the way he was put in prison by the regime there yeah you hear some you hear some stories that are just it's it's unfathomable I mean I can hardly say that word but um so this guy one of the guys from our NGO said to him okay you're you were a taxi driver yeah yeah I was
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And this is always interpreted for us, by the way. Someone's always translating for us in English. So he said, he said, listen, I want to use an illustration for you about about heaven related to taxi drivers. So he said, if I if I was going to try to get somewhere in my city and I saw two taxis. And so I went over to one of the taxis and I said, sir, I need to go to so-and-so address.
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Do you know where it is? And can you get me there? I really need to get there. It's very important. And the taxi driver says, you know, I'm not sure. Maybe, why don't you get in? We'll figure it out. Inshallah, we'll get there. Inshallah for your listeners that don't know what that term means. Muslims very often use that term. It just means if God wills.
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
So they say it about everything, you know, inshallah, we'll do this, inshallah, we'll do that. So our friend says to this former taxi driver from Syria, you know, who would get in a taxi of a man who said, inshallah, I mean, I don't really know. But he said, now there's another taxi there that you see. And you go over to this taxi because the first guy said, I'm not really sure.
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
Inshallah, maybe God wills, we'll figure it out. You go over to this other taxi and there's a man in there and you say, listen, I need to go to this address. It's very important that I get there. Can you take me there? And that man says to you, he replies, absolutely. I know exactly where that address is. Get in. I'm confident I'm going to get you there right away. Which taxi would you get in?
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
And so what our friend is doing, it's kind of a parable or a metaphor, basically, of Muhammad and Jesus. Are you going to get in the taxi driven to paradise, driven by Muhammad, who said when people asked him, what will Allah do with us? He is known to have responded by saying, I don't know what Allah or Allah will do with you. I don't even know what he'll do with me. Wow.
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
Can you imagine following someone who says that? But then the other taxi driver, of course, represents Jesus who says, absolutely, I know the address of heaven. I can get you there. I'm going there. I'm going to prepare a place for you that where I am, you will be. And so he's sharing this with this guy on this trip. And then this guy's listening.
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
Hey, Brandon, good to be with you again, dear brother. Yes, I just returned about two weeks ago from a wonderful trip to a country that Miriam and I dearly love, the country of Jordan in the Middle East.
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
And then I share with him, I go outside his door and he's sitting right inside it. And I knock on the door and I said, we'll just call this guy Mustafa, not his real name. I say, Mustafa, this is what Jesus says in the Bible to you. He says, listen, I'm knocking on the door of your heart. So I knock on his literal door. I'm knocking on the door of your heart.
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
If you open the door, I'll come in and I'll eat with you. Now, every Middle Eastern person knows that eating with you in this context means friendship. It means commitment to one another. And so he said on this day, now listen, this is important to hear, Brandon. These Christian men have been reaching out to Mustafa for 10 years with practical help and the gospel.
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
But on this day, Mustafa said, my door is open. After I shared Revelation 320 with him. And so this day, and I looked over at our friend from this Christian NGO that's been witnessing to him. And on the way home, he said, Mark, Timothy Mark, he said, this was his day. He said, I just know it. I sense it. I just sensed this was the day he said yes to Jesus and opened his door.
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
wow and so yeah so man i mean i've i've seen mustafa for years i've been in his home many times this man who's so poor got a bunch of kids lives in desperation um but this was the day brandon i gotta see him open the door to jesus
The E.A.R. Podcast
We Need to Deliver the Gospel!
Yeah. And I know, Brandon, you and I both believe that theology is important and context of a scripture. And so I know that those verses are written to a church. Nevertheless, I think that the verse about Jesus knocking on the door of a heart, the application can still be used, I believe, for unbelievers as it relates to evangelism. And
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah, you sure did. I mean, I think... you know one of the things that um you and i haven't talked about uh for quite a long time in my own personal life is that um one year ago i had a stroke and um it was a very hard experience emotionally and then i was on a sabbatical that was also very difficult but the because i just was dealing with so much stuff that god was bringing up and
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And Brandon, I think one of the main things he was bringing up was, you know, it's like Jesus saying to Peter, you know, when he's restoring him in the gospel after Peter's failed him, he says, you know, Peter, do you love me? Peter, do you love me? And during this time after the stroke, he was just showing me that I loved so many things more than him. Good things, missions, ministry, evangelism.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
But I was loving them more than him and more than spending time with him. And so my answer to this question, how should we present ourselves in our daily lives? I think that we will present ourselves in direct correlation to how much time we spend with Jesus.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah, because he's the light of the world. And if you hang out with him as a lesser light, you know, as we talk about in chapter 34, people will see it and they'll say there's something different about you. And you will get that that first Peter, you know, how he says, be ready to give an answer for those who ask you about the hope that's within you, because they're going to ask a question.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
What what is it about you? Why? You seem different than the normal people I see and interact with. And so I think the context about how we present ourselves in daily lives is really being so full of Jesus that it just comes out. It has to come out.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
amen yeah so you asked a question that um the whole thing about does your church take a position on that israeli palestinian conflict and man is this a hot button thing now right yeah wow as we are talking you know with we just had the one year anniversary of the terrible uh october 7 you know hamas going into israel and killing people and taking so many hostage and
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
It's just been a year of bloodshed since then. And now, of course, with, you know, with Israel and Hezbollah. So it's a mess. It's a sad mess. But basically the way, you know, this chapter was titled, Do You Look Different to Muslim People? And I gave two stories of when Miriam and I were in Palestine, in the West Bank of Israel. And we met two different people who just said, you look different.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
There's something, what is it about you? As we went into their homes and we were able to really share. And so then the segue came about because I thought, you know, people reading our book are going to interact, of course, with Muslims. And some of them are going to ask the question, what do you think about this conflict? And so here's what we say to people in general.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
We say if you're dealing with a Muslim person and they ask you the question, I mean, whose side are you on? Are you pro-Israel? Are you for us? Are you for Palestinian people? Are you for Muslims? Who are you for? And here's our answer, and it's right out of the book. I'm just going to read it. We are so sorry for all of the suffering of the Palestinian people, and we pray for them.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so, Brandon, you'll notice quickly, I didn't take, I didn't say anything. I didn't take any position about Israel in my answer, either positive or negative, because maybe the Muslim was looking for me to just kind of hooked me with something, but I didn't even mention them. I simply commented just ever so briefly on the suffering of the Palestinian people.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And I'll tell you, brother, in so many conversations, this has always satisfied our Muslim friends and acquaintances. And they so often respond with some degree of surprise by expressing a very thankful, God bless you. And then it just closes the matter.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so, yeah, I don't you know, as far as the church taking a position, I mean, I'll tell you, I'll tell you and your listeners, this is kind of a tough one, but it's going to be difficult for you to reach out to Muslim people. If you have a whole lot of stuff, for example, on your Facebook or your Instagram or your TikTok or whatever, that's that's just pro-Israel.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And I don't want your listeners to misunderstand and think that I'm anti-Israel or especially anti-Jewish. I don't want any of your listeners to get that idea. But if any Muslim thinks that you care only about the Jewish people and not the Palestinian people, they're not going to be very likely to listen to you share the gospel.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so, yeah, just you can be so wise, I think, by giving that answer to a Muslim. We're just so sorry for the suffering of the Palestinian people, and we pray for them. And, yeah, just leave it there, and they will be blessed, and they will be thankful because their image of most Christians is that we are – total Zionists.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And I want to be careful even in using that word, but I'll define it this way. This is how they would see what Zionism means. It means that Israel as a nation can never do anything wrong. Everything they do is right, and everything they do is justified. And so they feel like that Christians will endorse whatever they do, no matter what.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
You know, I think. Go ahead. Well, I just let me just throw in something real fast, brother. I'm sorry. I think that I want your listeners to just think about, you know, as far as. Zionism believing, some people believe, Zionists believe that everything Israel does is right, and we have to support them, national Israel, no matter what.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
But if you just read the Old Testament, just read through the prophets, especially like right now, I'm just rereading, I'm reading again through Jeremiah. My goodness, God certainly never said everything Israel did or Judah did was right. In fact, just the opposite happened.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And he allowed both parts of Israel, the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah, both of them to be taken into captivity and exile. And so he absolutely did not think everything they did was right. And I think that we need to keep that in mind as we think about national Israel today.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Oh, that's so good, man. You hit it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Oh, man. Yeah, brother, you preach it and I'll turn the pages. I love I love the alliteration you use there. We need to care more about people.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Oh, yeah, man. And really, I mean, what did Jesus tell us in a verse that most believers have known you know, since they first came into the kingdom was Matthew 6, 33, seek first the kingdom of God, right?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so, man, in this, you know, crazy election cycle again, it's just a temptation for believers to kind of fall prey to seeking first the kingdom of America and how we best think America should go forward.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Instead of keeping in mind, no matter who wins this presidential election and all the other, you know, Senate and House and the state races, no matter what, we're still going to be about the kingdom of God. We still have to put our head down, live for Jesus, be lights in the world and share the good news, you know, with grace and truth.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Absolutely. I mean, here's what we see, Brandon. We see that most believers, they want to share their faith with those who don't yet follow Jesus. And we kind of see that it's like two pendulum, two ends of a pendulum swinging. It's all one way or another. It's either, it seems like what we see with people is it's all truth and very little or no grace.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Well, man, I think you said it. I think it's to care. You said we need to think and care more about people than we do about politics and policy. So I think that we need to prepare ourselves when a question like that is asked to look in the eyes of that Muslim person who's asking us
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And through our eyes, our tone of voice, our facial expression, our body language, everything says to them, because of Jesus, I care about you. And so that just comes out of us. And then again, our answer, I think we can just prepare to again tell people, I mean, if a Jewish person is asking you,
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
You know, you can say we are so sorry for all the suffering of the Jewish people and we pray for them. You don't with them. You don't need to bring up the Palestinians because it's a hot button for them. And if the Muslim asks you, you know, you just change the word. We're so sorry for all the suffering of the Palestinian people and we pray for them.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so that way you're not immediately, you know, choosing sides. You're not. You're just showing love for that person and the group they identify with.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah, well, first of all, man, I love those words. It's so great, right? I hope our listeners really caught that, have a mindset from the onset to get to the gospel. Yes, I think that I kind of alluded to that earlier. I think that's so important. I mean, once again, it's that balance. You don't view the Muslim person as a target, right?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
So that you're just, you know, you're just trying to think as a target, and you're just trying to shove the gospel into every conversation. It's like, you know, what is it, the square peg in the round hole? You're trying to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit. You're trying to look for opportunities, as we talked about.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
in a different chapter, you're looking for opportunities, not excuses to share the gospel. But yes, I think that we just need to have a heart, that we have a mindset from the onset to get to the gospel as soon as we're able with a Muslim person, but yet to do it, well, once again, we go back to the verse in 1 Peter 3, With gentleness and with respect.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
So these are the Christians that kind of let their evangelism actually get in the way of their kindness and friendship and service to Muslims. They're just so forceful. And they really view Muslim people as projects or targets. Wow. Yeah, they unnaturally just force their evangelism, and they never build a real sincere relationship with them. But we also see people, Brandon, do the opposite.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yes. So again, we just keep coming back to grace and truth, right? That balance in our presentation.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Amen. Oh, man. Brother, I am so glad you said that because... Yeah, I mean, your goal in a relationship with a Muslim person isn't to get them to like you. I mean, your ultimate goal is for them to see Jesus. Amen. And we've had Muslim people say to us, you know, man, you're such a good person, or you would be such a good Muslim.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
But when they tell us you're such a good person, man, we want to quickly respond, Brandon, by saying, hey, I thank you for that, but I just want you to know that if you see anything good in me, it's because I invited Jesus to come and live inside me. And really, he kind of invaded my heart. And then I asked him to stay there. And so what you're seeing is Jesus.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
I mean, you know, here's a kind of a little humorous story. One of our refugees here in town that we've been reaching out to and gotten so dear in our friendship with him, Again, he calls us his parents. He was driving in an Uber one day, not long after he got here and he was working. He hadn't saved enough money to buy a car yet.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
He was driving in an Uber, and some kind of huge bird, I don't know what kind of bird it was, was about to hit the windshield, just coming right at the windshield of this Uber where our North African Muslim refugee friend was sitting. He was riding in that car.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And all of a sudden, the Uber driver, as he saw that bird, giant bird, whatever it was about to hit the car, he yelled, Jesus, just with a real, you know, cry. He wasn't swearing. He was truly crying out, you know, for help from the Lord. And so this is so cool. Our friend, again, this North African refugee Muslim friend said to the driver, do you know my friend Timothy?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Because he was linking Jesus and Timothy. And the driver had such a cool answer. He said, I don't know Tim, but I know Jesus.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so, you know, brother, I love that because, I mean, so much more and more and more, this Muslim friend said, is linking us with jesus not being good people yeah yeah i love i just oh that's what that's what we have wanted so much
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Amen, brother. Amen. I love how you preach on here, man. It's so good. I'm blessed.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah, you're you're you're not just trying, you're succeeding.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah, well, I think, you know, I think a lot of it is it goes back to what we alluded to earlier. It's It's how much do you love Jesus? Because when you do, when you love anything, it comes out of you. I mean, you don't have to be an extrovert like me to witness to people, whether it's a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu or your neighbor next door or somebody at work or school.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
You just need to love Jesus so much that and be so excited about him, like like revelation. Right. Jesus talks about to the. the churches in Revelation, the beginning chapters, you know, he says, some of you are, you know, you're just lukewarm. And others, he say, you do so much for me, but you've left your first love. I don't sense that you love me like you once did.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so, yeah, I just think that when we love him, it's hard to be silent. And also, I think that we need to ask God to have the kind of passion that, for example, the Apostle Paul did. When he brings up in chapters 9 through 11, he's talking about election and everything. But even though he believes in election, he says his heart just burns and he's in agony. for people.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
So the first example kind of is all truth and little or no grace. But the other thing we see in some believers— as they evangelize, and now we're talking mostly as it relates to Muslims, is they're on the opposite end of the spectrum, or as the pendulum swings, they are all grace, but little or no truth.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And he speaks specifically there about his own people, the Jewish people. But we can say it about anybody, that his heart just burns for people to know the truth. And he's in agony because they don't. And I think if we ask, you know, God, like we love that old, old song called Hosanna. And in Hosanna, it has that line, Break our hearts for what breaks yours.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah. And so I think I think that's, you know, I mean, it always goes back to our heart. How do we resist the temptation to be silent about our faith? Well, Ask God to change your heart, give to give you a passion for him and a passion for the lost.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
So, and he will keep you. Amen. He's our keeper, right? He, yeah. And brother, you just said some words there that really moved me when you said, I don't want people I know to be in hell. And it just kind of, man, it just kind of, yeah, just about brings tears to my eyes. And I, and, and, you know, brother, I just feel like so few churches today, uh,
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so few preachers on TV or radio mention hell and seem to have any concern about hell. And so many people, you know, I'm an older person, but so many younger people now, they literally don't believe in it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah, I mean, even people who say, young people who say, That they're followers of Jesus. They claim to be Christians, but they don't believe in a terrible place called hell. And so Jesus did, and we must, we just must.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And what I mean by that is that they let their kindness and friendship and service to Muslims get in the way of their evangelism. So they rightfully and humbly love and serve Muslim people, but they never get around them. to any kind of real or serious faith discussions for fear that they will lose the relationship.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
So we see people on both kind of ends of that spectrum, or as I said, the pendulum swings too wide, too broadly either way. Instead of the balance of Jesus in John 1, 14, grace and truth, just the balance of grace and truth.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah, perfect. Well, could I could I just share briefly two short stories of what I've seen of Christians perhaps being too forceful in evangelism? Would that be OK?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
OK, well, one example was. Where we live, like where most folks do these days in the US, we have an influx of refugees. And after 2021, when Afghanistan fell to the Taliban, it was a terrible tragedy what happened. So we know that just countless thousands of Afghans were trying to get out of that country. And quite a number came to our city where we live in the Midwest.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And I was blessed to befriend, through an English class, three pilots, actually. They were in the Afghan Air Force and they came here. And so I was able to befriend them and show them kindness. And one night I set up a dinner with a friend of mine that grew up as a Muslim in Iran. but has become a believer, been a believer now for a few decades.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And because he speaks Farsi and they speak Dari and these languages are similar, he could communicate with them. So we all five went out to eat and to get to the end of the story quickly, he was kind to them that night, but he was just too forceful. He, He really, I feel like he pushed too hard.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And Brandon, what happened after that was when I would send text messages or try to call the leader of those three Afghan pilots, he would never respond again to me.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Wouldn't answer a text or WhatsApp message or a phone call. And it was just heartbreaking because it just immediately just cut off the relationship, not just with him, but also the other two. And so that's one example. Another example is that we have a dear friend from the Middle East. He is an Arab Christian. And we have some refugees in our area that are from North Africa.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And so we, Miriam and I, have been befriending them. It's been amazing, Brandon, though. the friendship that we've had with them, and we've gotten so close. Nice. Some of them call us their parents. It's just so beautiful. And we have shared good news of Jesus with them. We've tried to hit that balance of grace and truth. Well, we had a visitor come from the Middle East. He is a dear friend.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
We've known him for years, since 2012. And we just thought it'd be great if he shared the gospel with two of these refugee men, their brothers, and he could do it in Arabic. So we thought that would be so much better for them in their heart language. And so he shared one night after a large meal they hosted us, he shared about 45 minutes.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And I was watching the body language of my North African Muslim friends, and it wasn't good, Brandon. They were Yeah, they just looked very uneasy, very uncomfortable. Well, about two weeks later, I was at their home once again, and they said to me, Tim, listen, there's something we really want to talk to you about. I said, sure, you guys know I want to talk to you about anything.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Let's have an honest conversation. I want to be friends. You know where I'm coming from. And they said, listen, your friend who came, we really liked him. but he pressured us to make a decision that day to become Christians. And we want you to know right now, we will never leave Islam. We will never leave our religion. We will never become Christians.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And if you think that being kind to us or helping us through all these months will make us a Christian, we just want you to know right now, it won't work. It's not happening. It's off the table. And so, yeah. So now thank God, thank God, unlike the other situation, the Lord really redeemed this in a precious and beautiful way.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
I was able to respond to them and said, listen, you guys know that Miriam and I love you. And we want you to be assured that we will love you whether you ever believe what we believe or not. But I'm going to tell you, and I said a lot of other things, but Brandon, here's how I closed. I said, listen, I will never pressure you to believe what I believe, but I will pray for it every day.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And it was really neat. It just by then we expressed so much honesty back and forth. that one of the brothers when he heard me say that he just burst out laughing like you know he was just saying that's what i would expect of you so so sometimes you know in our eagerness and our in our you know we share too much too fast or too hard And so that's one side, again, of that pendulum swing.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
But honestly, just as I just share this final comment about that, Brandon, we've seen more people befriend Muslims, and we've met them through Zoom calls and other things, conferences, and we'll ask them, hey, how's it going as you're sharing the good news of Jesus with your Muslim friends? And they'll say, well, we just haven't gotten around to it yet.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
I'll say, well, how long have you known them? Well, two years, three years. And so, you know, boy, that's the other end of the whole spectrum, right? They're so worried about offending and losing the friendship. They never share gospel truth. So it's got to be grace and truth, that perfect balance that only Jesus, you know, had beautifully and perfectly. But we want to aspire to it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Are you asking me that, I think, as a personal question or for anyone?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Well, absolutely, I would say both, grace and truth. I mean, the consequence of all truth with little or no grace is
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
really turns off anyone i mean because they're they just feel like you're viewing them as a target you know um like the old westerns a notch on your belt or something they they don't feel loved and so why are they going to want something from a person that doesn't show them love and kindness and respect and so yeah i mean um and and so but then as we keep saying just
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Some folks, man, they just hang out with Muslims and they do so much with them. But, oh, my goodness, they've never once shared a Bible verse. They've never shared the principles of what Christianity is. And so, yeah. And so grace and truth, it's got to be both. And we really encourage people, hey, let your Muslim friend know early in the relationship you're a follower of Jesus.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And I have often, Brandon, I've often asked Muslims very early in the relationship, I'll say, hey, one thing I love about you guys is that you talk about faith so freely. And so could I just ask you, would you mind telling me in your faith as a Muslim, what does Islam teach about how we can go to heaven? Or they call it paradise. And so I just respectfully listen.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
And then I say, would it be okay if I now shared with you what the Bible says about how we can go to heaven, how we can be made right with God and have our sins forgiven? And usually they're very open to that once we've listened to them. And you can do that early in the relationship.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Yeah, perfect, brother. Just, you know, one more scripture maybe that I can add to. Well, I love how you shared that about Jesus with the Samaritan woman at the well. And one verse I think that fits this whole conversation we're having about the balance in evangelism of grace and truth is a verse that you and I have talked about before.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
Thank you so much, Brandon. It's just a pleasure to be here. It's a real honor. And I'm looking forward to digging into your questions tonight.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Grace, Truth, & Boldness with Muslim Neighbors
But just in case some listeners are coming into this episode and didn't hear us talk about this Paul said to the Thessalonian people, the people of the ancient city of Thessalonica in Greece, he said in 1 Thessalonians 2, verse 8, we were pleased to give you Not only the gospel, but also our own lives as well. Boy, is that not I mean, is that not grace and truth? That's just a perfect balance.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
on the day of judgment, because the Bible truly says that there's only one path, one road to heaven, to paradise, and it is through the cross of Jesus, the person and work of Jesus. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I just want to stress to your listeners that even Paul asked for the Ephesians to pray for him to boldly proclaim the mystery of the gospel, and you think, what? Paul?
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Who could be more bold than Paul? Well, apparently he wasn't always bold. He needed the Holy Spirit to help him, and so he asked the Ephesians to pray that he might be bold. And so, man, we need the compassion for Muslims that God has, and we need the boldness that he wants to give us to share his love with them.
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Yeah. Amen. And, you know, y'all went to a crazy chicken to have this conversation, you know, but it's it's unique because you'll be in like places you wouldn't think of. You know, you wouldn't think to have a conversation in a restaurant called the Crazy Chicken about each other's salvation. That's right.
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You know, but like I always tell people, you have to be able to know, you know, when you're going to know when, but you have to be able to know when to share your faith. You're definitely going to be given the opportunity to share your faith. And when you're when you are given an opportunity to share your faith, you have to do it.
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by relying on the holy spirit because if he would have told me that i would have looked at him in in shock and tried to rebut what he said with the gospel like i wouldn't i would not have responded in a in a more loving compassion way because i'm not used to somebody telling me of a different faith telling me that they fear for my soul well you know i i have to say that
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very early in our ministry to Muslims, I wrongly responded to somebody who said something similar, and we touched on this in a very early episode, but just to touch on it briefly again, I remember I had another Palestinian man who was an international student, and I was in his apartment, and this was really early when we started out in ministry. We were as they say, super green behind the ears.
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So that was awesome, man. Thank you so much for your time in that.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
We were rookies and just learning. And I remember that this man and I were sharing with each other one night, and we were sitting close enough on a couch where he poked his finger right in my chest, and he said, Tim, I swear to you that I love Jesus more than you do. I was, like, shocked. I was like, in my head, I'm thinking, what are you talking about, man? You don't know Jesus.
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Thank you, brother. We are so honored, man. All right, let's do it.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
How can you say you love him more than I do? And what came out of my mouth was something that wasn't great. I just said, I said back to him, I swear to you, you don't love Jesus more than I do because you have the wrong Jesus. Yeah. Okay, now Brandon, let me just share with your listeners what I'd say now. I hope. I'd probably say now something like this. You know, my friend, wow, that's amazing.
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All right. So let's talk about the first segment, the Holy Spirit and the Macaroon. I'm saying that wrong. The Holy Spirit and the Moroccan rug salesman. Let's talk about that.
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You say you love Jesus. Well, I love Jesus too. So why don't we just talk about Jesus? And that, you know, that you're not defensive. You're not trying to win. You're diffusing what could potentially be, you know, some fireworks and some debate that won't be helpful. And so I want to encourage your listeners.
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I mean, I think sometimes we as believers, we think we have to win all the time when we're talking to a Muslim or any unbeliever. I've got to win. If I don't win, they won't understand the gospel. Well, what happens is you might win an argument but lose the person. And really, sometimes winning is more about us than it is about the Lord.
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We like to think it's about the Lord and the gospel, but sometimes it's our egos.
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Yeah, our pride. And so, yeah, I think, I mean, what does the Bible tell us? A gentle answer. You know, turns away the wrath of man, the anger of man in Proverbs. So sometimes when a Muslim says something shocking to you that you might be easily offended by instead, you know, just diffuse it with kindness and a gentle, loving heart.
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Hmm. I like that. So given that, what you just said, do you think that this can teach us about the urgency with which we share the gospel?
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Well, I love that word you just used. I mean, I'll just say that I struggle sometimes as it relates to the balance of being led by the Holy Spirit and the whole concept of urgency. Because if we let the concept of urgency, that is, The idea that Muslims or any unbeliever, that we've got to get to them right now.
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We've got to get it out there, get the word out there, witness to as many people as fast as we can. Well, then you're going to do it in your own strength, you know. And so we need a balance between, yes, the days, you know, Paul said are evil. And Jesus said, work while it's day, night is coming when no man can work.
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All right, so you titled that, I thought it was a pretty funny title, but you talk about strategies of the Holy Spirit versus strategies of the human doing its own thing instead of listening to the Holy Spirit. So how good would you say you may seem, and this is for you personally, Tim, by not using the Holy Spirit to advance the gospel?
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So, yeah, there is an urgency, but it has to be balanced by looking at the life of Jesus. I mean, one thing one of my friends said to me one time is, Mark, you know, Tim, you have, I was thinking about a friend, Mark, Tim, you have a sense of the urgency, right?
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of the gospel okay that's great you know but when you look at matthew mark luke and john do you ever see jesus running from one village to another do you ever see him being in a hurry and and man that just kind of shocked me like if jesus wasn't in a hurry
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to get from village to village, but instead he said in John more than once, I only do what I see my Father doing, I only say what I hear my Father saying. It was just this amazing kind of combination of, yeah, there's an urgency, but yet there's a peaceful going about, sharing the gospel, when, where, how, all about the timing.
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Yeah, that that's good. That's really amazing. Now, think about this, too. We have we have what I call bully Christians. They exist. And it's it's it pains me to even say that. And they actually push people further away from the gospel than they do bring people in to the fellowship of Jesus Christ. And we have to be careful with how we witness and how we share the gospel.
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You know, we don't need to walk into a Muslim area and just disrespect them because they're not Christian. Like, that's not what we do. That's not what the Bible teaches. And we need to be careful with with how we do that. Now, chapter forty nine, which leads us to the next part, you titled it. What happened to our Muslim friends? They're disappearing.
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Well, this was related to, we had three Muslim friends. I have an outreach partner. His name is Gary. And we don't live in the same city now, so it isn't quite the same. We're not able to do this. But for years, we would go out every Thursday, and it was our Muslim outreach day.
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And we would just go out in a city here in the Midwest, and we would just search for Muslim people and go love on them, meet them, strike up conversation. And then once we knew enough people, we'd just go back and see them again. And then we'd set up times where, you know, maybe we would have coffee together at Starbucks or something. And so we had three men like this, Muslim men.
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And what happened to all three of them was it just seemed like all three of them were making advances toward putting their faith in Jesus. And then all three of them individually, they didn't know each other. Well, two of them did. I take that back. They just disappeared. I mean, it was like all of a sudden they wouldn't answer their phone. they wouldn't return a WhatsApp message or a text.
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And, you know, I remember one of them, I mean, he was this gentle, older Muslim man from Syria. Oh, we just love this man. And it was so fun because it looked like that we were watching him. His name was Mansour. And it just looked like we were watching him be born again. In fact, Brandon, one day,
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We were talking with him, sitting with him in his home, and I asked him if he had come to believe that Jesus died on the cross. And this is something, obviously, that the Quran denies and Muslims don't believe. But I'll never forget his just totally unexpected response. Here's what he said. If Jesus didn't die on the cross, then who was that man that came out of the tomb? Isn't that cool?
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I mean, so he believed in the resurrection and because he believed in the resurrection, then he said, I have to believe in the cross. I mean, it was kind of a different way of thinking, but the Holy Spirit was working on him. But so he kept joining us actually in Bible study. And then, like I said, he just disappeared. And I remember I went back to his home.
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man i tell you when when i just rely on you know different things even that are good things that god has given me it's just not it's not the same man i mean you know all of us are tempted to rely on uh human talents that god has given us or even our spiritual gifts that god has given us and uh or maybe our education um you know our personality And so sometimes we rely on all of that to witness.
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And his granddaughters would even give me, you know, conflicting stories of where he was. Like one of them would say he's taking a nap and the other one would come out and say he went to the store, you know. And so what happened was it was very obvious to us his family shutting down. Yeah, his daughter and son-in-law and son, we think they just shut him down and kept him away from us because...
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it became clear that he was getting really close to putting his faith in Jesus. And actually, I think that he did. But the point, brother, is that, and this happened with the other two guys too, and the point is that what we have found with so many Muslims is they will say, once they do come to Christ, they'll say, I didn't give up Islam easily. In other words, it was a hard, hard, hard decision.
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But we want your listeners to hear, please believe us when we say that Islam doesn't easily give up its people either.
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Yeah. And so you're in a spiritual warfare. Your battle, our battle, is definitely not against Muslim people. It's not even against the leaders at the mosque. You know, we had another guy... that he just flat out told us, I'm sorry, I can't meet with you anymore for Bible study because I'm getting too much pressure from the people at the mosque. And they're putting pressure on me. I can't do it.
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So he was afraid. And so, yeah, so our battle, you know, really, it's not against Muslim people, but really what we need to do is just keep loving our Muslim neighbors and fight for them on our knees in prayer.
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And so those three men that disappeared, yeah, it just showed us so clearly, man, if you want to be involved in outreach to Muslim people, you better buckle your seatbelt and be prepared because there's going to be spiritual warfare, not just against them, but against you. And so it's spirits, man. It's... And so we love the people, but we battle those spirits.
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Yeah, I like how you said, you know, battle for them on your knees. That's something we definitely have to focus on is prayer. Everything we do has to be saturated in prayer. Like nothing else, just saturated in prayer day in, day out. That's it. Just prayer. But I want to do something a little different.
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I want to go back one chapter because we just did forty nine and I want to go back to chapter forty eight. And it was kind of out of order by my mistake because I'm a human. But I think it's actually going to fit perfectly. And you titled the chapter. Are you having success in your ministry to Muslims? And.
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I think the only way I want to answer that question, in my opinion, is I think the only way that we can have success in our ministry to Muslims is to be on our knees, praying daily, asking the Holy Spirit to intervene whenever needed and to give us the words to say at the time it needs to be said.
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and and i think that goes for anyone in ministry it doesn't have to just be muslims it's any type of ministry stay on your knees stay in prayer stay in the word and stay in fellowship with christ amen yeah that's so cool yeah we i i mentioned the chapter when i was a boy i was i was so fascinated by a character i i got a little book at school and it was by uh johnny appleseed
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that lived in the late 1700s, and he planted apple seeds all over part of the eastern U.S. and the Midwest. And I think that one problem a lot of Christians, followers of Jesus have, is that they think that they're not being successful in evangelism unless someone you know, praise the prayer, so to speak, or becomes a follower of Jesus.
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And instead, I just love the whole idea that a lot of us are gifted to plant seeds. And I want to read, if I could, a definition that I really love related to quote-unquote successful evangelism, because you have to define success. And so this is by a man named Paul Hazelden. It's on page 245 of this chapter.
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He says this, if you understand something of the journey a person must take in order to discover God, then you know that helping someone take one more step towards God is successful evangelism just as much as helping them over the final line. Yeah.
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And so I want that to sink in for your listeners that evangelizing Muslim people or anybody, but especially as we're talking about Muslim people, it's a process. And really, it can be a long process. It can take years.
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And, you know, God wants to use each and every one of those things. But to depend upon them really is kind of, it's not just misguided, it's idolatrous. And so we need to rely on the Holy Spirit to give us the words and thoughts so that we can witness for Him in just, you know, in every moment.
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But doesn't this just bring, I mean, this definition, doesn't it bring just this new freedom and encouragement that, hey, if you help a person, if the Holy Spirit uses you to bring a Muslim person one step closer to Jesus, that is successful evangelism.
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I like that, you know, and because I was going to ask you, well, how would you even measure success when when you're ministering to Muslims? Like what would be the the measuring stick, if you will, to measure such success when it comes to ministering to Muslims?
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Yeah, I think I think that's it. I mean, part part of the measuring stick is relational and part of it is. Knowledge of the word and who Jesus is. So let's just say relational first. We've talked about this chapter after chapter because the title of the book is Loving Your Muslim Neighbor. So we say in the book over and over, the whole thing is about relationship.
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And so I think that, for example, you spend time with a Muslim person. You hang out. You find out about their family. You find out what matters to them. You find out about their history. You find out about what Islam means to them. You know, when you've heard answers to those questions, in my opinion, and you're growing closer to that Muslim person, then in my opinion, That is success.
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It's part of the definition of success regarding evangelism. It's a path. It's a road. It has markers on it as you go. And sometimes the road takes some really wild turns. And then maybe you're in a conversation with a Muslim and you say, you know, that reminds me. We have a story about forgiveness today.
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Because I just had a Muslim guy say to me the other day, you know, he said, I'm so angry at another Muslim guy. He said, because Tim, he said, one time we were together and he didn't show respect for you. And he said, I'm just angry at him. And he said, also, he's not helping our fellow refugees. He's greedy, and he doesn't give money to help the newer refugees, and so he won't talk to the guy.
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Wow. Yeah, and it brings up the story, right, of, I mean, you know, just the beautiful parable that Jesus told of the man who owed this king, let's say, a million dollars, and the king has mercy on him and forgives him. Then that man goes out and finds... a man who owes him $1,000. And he won't forgive that man.
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And so it's so clear that the Bible says that we are to forgive one another just as our Heavenly Father has forgiven us in Christ. And so if you tell that parable to a Muslim man who's angry at someone else or a woman who's angry at someone else, then they can see that, well, do you want God to forgive you? Has God not forgiven you of so much?
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Then Jesus said, you need to forgive your fellow man or woman. And so that is one step closer for them. Anything you're able to do to show them who Jesus is. and get them into his teachings and do oral stories, you know, that can touch them right where they are. All of those things are success because all of those things are bringing them one step closer to Jesus.
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Amen. Yeah. And I find it I find it interesting, too. When I was reading the chapter, you know, you talked about let me let me open the book, actually. So if you have a copy of the book, it'll be chapter 46. So that would be page 235. I like how you used the ideology, the idea or the imagery of a salesman.
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Amen. Before we wrap up, I want to talk about boldness and overcoming hurdles, just briefly. Do you think that boldness is a personality trait, or is it something that we can receive from the Lord and grow in it?
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I think it's both. I think that some people definitely have kind of a natural boldness. They they're more courageous than the average person. It's built into their DNA. I'm not that person. I'm sad to say I have a natural fear of conflict. But I do think some people have a natural boldness that helps them, unless they only rely on that and not on the Lord.
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But a lot of the rest of us, I mean, I think your average listener to your podcast probably feels some anxiety when they think about sharing Jesus with a lost person. It just creates, well, what will they think? Well, what will their response be? Or, I don't know enough. And I think two things. We need boldness. And we need, I put this on page 241, Brandon.
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We need a love for people in which fear for their souls on the day of judgment means more to us than fear of their response to our witness in the here and now. And we need to have more fear for their soul than we have fear of their response when we witness. And I want to just go back to that verse that I alluded to earlier.
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It's Ephesians 6, 19, where Paul said to the Ephesians, pray for me that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel. So, man, I mean, if Paul needed boldness, and I think he was naturally bold, but if he needed more Holy Spirit boldness, so do we all.
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Amen to that, brother. I got a hard one for you. It's a hard question and you might have a hard time answering it today, Tim, but I have faith that you can answer it. So here we go. Now, as we wrap up, I want this to be the closing question. And I do want the listeners to also ponder this question.
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So Timothy, how has God used you to move someone one step closer to following Jesus, even if you didn't see the final result?
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Okay, that's wonderful. So I'll just use an example that is right now, current, and that is that I have a a friend from north africa a muslim guy he is a refugee here i've known him now for not quite two and a half years and we feel like that miriam and i both have been used to take him several step closer several steps closer to following jesus out of um i would say friendship and service
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So it started out with service because when we met him he just had so many needs and so I mean, it's like, you know Helping him get a phone at boost mobile, you know helping him open up a checking account at PNC Helping him find an immigration lawyer Helping him find a place where he can buy the food that is closer to
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trying to sell them a rock and rug and what I love about that too is when you you take a look at Jehovah Witness you take a look at the Mormon faith they're out and about and they're always in your face trying to you know share their version of the gospel with you and I see that in the Muslim community as well and you know you can't when you go to a car dealership you go in there to buy a car so you can't talk yourself out of buying a car
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to what he had back home in North Africa, helping him related to getting a driver's license, going to Secretary of State, and taking driving lessons. I mean, it just, man, it goes on and on. And all of those steps of what we have heard people call servant evangelism have brought him one step further. Two steps, three steps, and many steps, we believe, closer to Jesus.
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And then it has given us the right to, when we're together, or even I've sent him many WhatsApp messages saying, with Bible verses in English and Arabic. Wow. Yeah, and even I've used the Bible app for that, so you can copy and paste in English and Arabic. And I've used the Jesus Film app. It's outstanding. And you can get video excerpts from stories of Jesus
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And you can have it dubbed in Arabic or the language of your Muslim friend. Yeah. Yeah. The Jesus app is tremendous. And it's got more on there than the old, old Jesus movie. It's got newer stuff. And so, yeah, we're pleased to say. And then just, man, just hanging out in each other's homes.
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Just being together, feeding them, letting them. Feed us. I mean, so in two and a half years, I mean, I always consider like I set aside a day. That friend has Mondays off. So I just think about this. Most of Monday, I'm just leaving open because I'll probably be with that with that Muslim refugee friend. We'll be doing something. Maybe I'll be taking him across the state.
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to the ICE office, you know, an office that keeps tabs on refugees, where they are and their court cases coming up. Or maybe I'll leave it open because he needs me to take him somewhere else. Or maybe I'll leave it open just to take him to do something fun that he's never done here in America before. So, yeah, I mean, all these things...
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whether they are relational or gospel, are ways to help our Muslim friends come one step closer to following Jesus.
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Man, that is a beautiful, powerful reminder that we need to trust God with the results. I find that often so many times we want to see the results. And yeah, I get that way, too. But it's not about us, brothers and sisters. It's about Christ. So we have to trust God with those results. I'm not going to trust Timothy with those results. I'm not going to trust Miriam with those results.
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I'm not going to trust my pastor with those results. I am going to trust God with those results. Our job is to plant the seed and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. God may bless us and we may see the result in our lifetime. Who knows? But we have to first trust God with that result and nothing else.
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Well, Timothy, thank you so much for sharing these incredible ingredients, if you will, with us today. You know, for our listeners, I want us to remember that success in our ministry is about being faithful to God's call, trusting the spirit and having compassion for those who don't know Christ. That's what we need. That's what we need. Plain and simple.
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Now, Timothy, can you tell us how we can get a copy of this book?
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I sure can, my dear friend. We have a website. It's the same as the title of the book. So it's just lovingyourmuslimneighbor.com. And when you go to that site, you can see that there is the introduction is there. Well, first of all, the table of contents, you can read it there. You can find out what every chapter is about. Then the introduction is there to read for free and the first chapter.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
And then there's a place to actually order the book, whether you use Amazon or someone else. We've got links there. And I do want to say for your listeners, I don't know if I've said this before, Brandon, but we don't make a penny off this book. It all goes back into an account. I won't say the name of our missions agency, but it all goes back into an account there.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
unless you don't want a car so yeah i find it very interesting this chapter that you talk about this because it gives me uh kind of a little slap on the back if you will uh or behind the head to not use my own merit to share the gospel we have we have to focus on the holy spirit
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
that's used for training believers to reach out to Muslim people. So, yeah, I can kind of unashamedly promote the book because of that.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
Awesome. Well, that will be one of the appendices that we're going to go over, you know, about how to get that training. But but Timothy, that's all I have for today. And that is that is all I have for this episode. And I cannot wait until the next one. And then right after the next one, we get to dive on into the appendices. So that is all I have for this episode of The Ear.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
As always, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. Until next time, keep loving, keep engaging, keep proclaiming the gospel with grace and truth.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
Yeah, yeah. Well, can I share kind of what the background story is of this chapter?
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
Okay, I'd love to. So yeah, as you said, brother, the title is The Holy Spirit and the Moroccan Rug Salesman. So this story took place in Morocco. In the summer of 2018, we had been in Greece, and then we were blessed to go stay in a place in Spain for free. And Spain is so close to Morocco. I mean, you can just take this very short, fast ferry ride over to Tangier, Morocco from Spain.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
And so we did that. And one of the first things that our tour guide did after we ate, he took us to a restaurant, was to take us to a Moroccan rug place. And so they literally rolled out the red carpet for us. Actually, a lot of carpet. So many beautiful rugs made by Berber people. And the salesman, Salah, he was kind, but he was pretty high-pressure.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
And so finally, he said that he was just going to leave us alone to talk it over about which rug we wanted to take home, even though he had told him, our friend, you know, we didn't even know we were coming to your shop. You have beautiful rugs, but these rugs are bigger than our house almost. And we don't have the money. And so but he said, oh, that's OK. That's OK. Just talk it over.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
Well, good morning, Podcast World, and welcome back to another episode of The Ear Podcast. I'm your host, Brandon Queen. And guess what? We're diving right back in to our series, Loving Your Muslim Neighbor. And believe it or not, this is almost coming to an end. We have three more episodes left. After this one, we have today we're going to be going through chapters 46 to 49. And
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
Well, while he was gone. It was so cool because the Holy Spirit put a beautiful response to him in Miriam's heart. And so when he returned, this is what we said. We don't want to buy a rug, even though they're so beautiful, but we would rather give you money for the poor Berber women that you said made these rugs. And he was so surprised. He was so astounded.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
That, yes, he accepted that amount of money, but it just opened up the doors then for us to start talking about what we believed and about who Jesus is and about the gospel. And so this is just a cool example of how Miriam was open to the Holy Spirit and allowed him to give her faith. this amazing idea, these very words. And those words just opened his heart.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
He couldn't believe that somebody would give him money instead of paying money to buy a rug. That it would be money that would go to these very poor women who made these rugs. And so after that, we just had this amazing conversation. And at the end of it, we prayed for him. And then he said, please, please. I mean, he totally forgot about selling a rug. Please, please come downstairs.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
Meet my family. I want you to pray for them, too. And so we did. We went down, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't, Brandon, like we were able to share the whole gospel necessarily. We did quite a bit of it. And it wasn't that they put their faith in Jesus that day, but what it was was seeds were planted in Morocco. You know, we didn't walk out of that rug store with a rug under our arms.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
But we did walk out of that rug store with hearts that were full of joy that this man had received a little more knowledge, came one step closer to understanding who Jesus really is.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
Amen. Amen. I like that. Let me ask you this on a different occasion. Have you seen the Holy Spirit give you words or thoughts in your witness? You know, that would anything that can come to mind. Have you seen the Holy Spirit do that or have you experienced the Holy Spirit do that while you were ministering to people?
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Well, I mean, that that was definitely that was definitely one experience right there. I remember, I mean, in the very beginning of our book, I think it might even be in the introduction that. We talked about how I went to visit a young Muslim man, I think he was only 18 or 19, and he was dying of cancer. In fact, I saw him twice in the week before he actually died.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
And on one occasion when I went up to see him, I just felt like the Holy Spirit told me to tell him about cancer Revelation 3 and how God says, Jesus says he's knocking on the door of our hearts. And if we'll open the door, he'll come in and he'll have fellowship. He'll have a meal with us. Now, I know that verse is written to a church, but I do believe also it can be an application.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
It can be used in evangelism. And so I just said to that young man, I can't remember his name right now, but let's call him Muhammad. I just said, Muhammad, I believe right now that Jesus is knocking on the door of your heart. And he just wants you to say very simply, Jesus, come into my heart. And he was so weak, but he just looked at me, and he, I mean, it was above a whisper, but not much.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
He just said in English, he could speak English and Arabic, he just said, Jesus, come into my heart. And it was just so cool that I just felt like the Lord didn't want me to have him pray an elaborate prayer, but the Holy Spirit just gave me
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
those words and he received them and as i said he passed away just a few days after that wow oh man goes to show you how powerful the holy spirit is for sure you know it's it's it's something we do not have control over at all and it's not something that you know we uh
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
we do on our own everything that we do is definitely for the holy spirit now um let me see and really and really i want to say brandon i mean let's say let's say the heart of every unbeliever if you picture it as having a lock on it right as we did as well well the holy spirit knows what key to use to unlock that lock He knows what will reach that heart.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
The appendix is going to be coming up soon, and I can't wait for that one. But anyway, let's dive on in. I have with us today Timothy Harris, the author of Loving Your Muslim Neighbor. How's it going, Tim?
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He knows how to come into a human heart, and we don't. We just don't know, because everybody's different. Every Muslim is different, and they sometimes need a little different approach, and sometimes it's just a word or a sentence or a thought that the Holy Spirit gives us, and light kind of just comes on.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
you know, in the soul, in the heart, the mind of a Muslim person and and leads them closer to to crossing the finish line to receive Jesus and enter the kingdom of God.
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Yeah. Amen. So I do want to move in the chapter 47, because I think this one is it's actually getting closer to my favorite chapter. But you titled it, I fear for your soul on the day of judgment. And, you know, it's a it's a very genuine concern for our Muslim brothers and sisters. OK. And you went at it from a very unique perspective.
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So I'm going to ask you a question and then I want you to actually explain this story because I do want the listeners to hear it. So does it surprise you that a Muslim would feel that way when you tell them that?
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Well, the this story, I mean, it surprises them when I tell them that. But the interesting thing about this story, this title, I Fear for Your Soul on the Day of Judgment, is that a Muslim said that to me. And it was in the fall of 2018. It was in Nevada, in Reno, Nevada. And I was at a mosque.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
I was scouting out a mosque on a Friday, on the day of prayer, so that I could take a small church group there the next day just to interact. to learn, to be a witness, to observe a prayer time. And I met a guy from Palestine named Samir. He was just a classic extrovert, just so warm and inviting, huge smile, very joyful. And we were the last ones out of the mosque.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
So well, man, and thanks again for having me. I always look forward to being with you.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
And he said to me, are you hungry? And I said, yeah. I said, in fact, before I came here, I looked to find out what good Middle Eastern restaurant might be near the mosque, and I'm going to go there. Would you come with me? And I was kind of shocked when he said, no. He said, I want you to go with me to a place called El Pollo Loco, which is a chain.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
I haven't seen it where we live in the Midwest, but it literally means the crazy chicken.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
Yeah, and so we went to the Crazy Chicken, and I couldn't believe it, man. I mean, he ordered the family dinner for the two of us and even added other menu items onto it. And as I say in the book, I hate to admit it, but we ate the whole thing. But during this meal, after my visit to this mosque,
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
I got to say, man, thank you so much for even doing a series with me. This is the first time I've actually covered an entire book without leaving any chapters out like the first time, which is amazing because that tells people, you know, that this book is worth reading. And I think everybody should pick it up and give it a shot. Read these stories and pray about how to deal with Muslim neighbors.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
In Reno, Nevada, we just had we were just talking about family and our wives, our kids, our backgrounds are, you know, different things. But then we just started going deeper. I mean, it's the first time I ever met this guy. And the Holy Spirit just had it all set up for me to meet him. It was a totally divine appointment.
The E.A.R. Podcast
Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
And we just went deeper, and then we just started talking about Islam, Christianity, the Quran, the Bible, Muhammad, Jesus. And it was just very candid. And then he just looked at me, and he just made this shocking and bold statement to me. I mean, I still remember it. He said, Tim, I fear for your soul on the day of judgment.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
And I think, you know, I just actually a lot of Christians would be offended. But I want to encourage your listeners. If if a Muslim ever says that to you, please tell them what I said to him, because I well, ask the Holy Spirit to give you words. But these are the words the Holy Spirit gave me. I just said to him, I just said, Samir, you must really care about me to say such a bold thing. I mean.
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Led by the Spirit in Boldness!
And you believe I can tell that Islam is the way as the only way to paradise. And what's cool to me and what touches my heart is you want me there and you don't want me to go to hell. And then I just said, thank you, my friend. And so and then we had more conversation and I and I said the same thing back to him. I just said, no, Samir, I, too, fear for your soul.