The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett
The Speaking Coach: The One Word All Liars Use! Stop Saying This Word, It's Making You Sound Weak! The More You Do This, The More You Sound Like A Liar!
Mon, 17 Mar 2025
How do you communicate like a top lawyer and command respect? Jefferson Fisher reveals the courtroom-tested tricks that win cases AND everyday conversations Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, communication expert, and host of ‘The Jefferson Fisher Podcast’, where he teaches how to communicate with confidence. He is also the bestselling author of the upcoming book, ‘The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More’. In this conversation, Jefferson and Steven discuss topics such as, how to make people agree with you instantly, the body language tricks that make you sound powerful, the habits that make you sound like a liar, and how to stop people from walking all over you. 00:00 Intro 02:17 Who Is Jefferson Fisher and What Is His Mission? 02:41 What Is a Trial Attorney? 03:24 My Job Is Convincing People to Believe Me 03:54 Where Jefferson Learned His Skills 04:57 Why Communication Matters 06:48 The Importance of Being a 10/10 Communicator 08:06 Negative Feelings From Poor Communication 09:00 Why Do People Listen to Jefferson? Why Do They Come to Him? 10:01 First Impressions vs. the Next Conversations 11:32 The Pause and Breathing Technique (Actionable) 17:18 Making Others Trust You 22:45 How Insecurities Affect Your Communication 24:24 How to Say Anything With Confidence 28:54 Why You Need to Say Fewer Words 33:00 Having an Assertive Voice 35:50 What Do the Most Successful People Have in Common? 37:19 Say Things to Connect 40:01 Should Our Aim Be to Win the Argument? 42:30 Why Winning the Argument Can Feel Bitter-Sweet 45:31 How to Have an Effective Conversation 52:23 How the Past and Your Identity Can Trigger You 58:50 What to Do When You're Disrespected 1:07:11 Why People Are Rude to You 1:14:50 How to Prepare for Any Difficult Conversation 1:17:28 Pause for a Second When You're Being Disrespected 1:25:50 Ads 1:26:49 The Importance of Body Language 1:30:18 Famous Cases Supporting This Body Language Principle 1:35:54 The Counterintuitive Technique to Win in Life 1:41:04 Become a Master of Small Talk 1:44:39 What I Learned From Abraham Lincoln 1:47:25 You Control the Power of the Tongue 1:49:13 How to Implement All the Tricks and Advice Into Your Life 1:51:09 Ads 1:53:19 How to Say No 2:02:23 Filler Words 2:07:02 What You Say to Your Kid Will Have a Huge Impact 2:10:07 What Would You Tell Your Younger Self? Follow Jefferson: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/Uh6ulIkkJRb YouTube - https://g2ul0.app.link/c9fYOfmkJRb You can pre-order Jefferson’s book, ‘The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/xO1NLrikJRb Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACBook You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Linkedin Ads - https://www.linkedin.com/DIARY Vivobarefoot - https://vivobarefoot.com/DOAC with code DOAC20 for 20% off Perfect Ted - https://www.perfectted.com with code DIARY40 for 40% off Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who is Jefferson Fisher and what does a trial attorney do?
And I can change two words and change your life just by what you decide to say next because what you say truly has the power to change everything. For example, I teach that you never want to win an argument. When you look to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. That's your prize, congrats. So instead of seeing arguments as something to win, see them as something to unravel.
And if you can just ask them the question, what am I missing? I promise you, that is the most effective tool that you can use for a difficult conversation.
What about when you're dealing with someone that you don't like?
The secret to dealing with someone you don't like is to... And then could you explain to me this image here? So this is all about how to say no.
Chapter 2: Why is communication pivotal to success?
And how does one learn that?
Start with... Then end with... Really?
That right there is very, very effective. I've got so many questions. I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button, wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you.
If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see and continue to do in this thing we love.
If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Jefferson Fisher, I'm incredibly intrigued by so many of the things that you produce content about, but also this phenomenal book. So if we start from the beginning, who are you?
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Chapter 3: How can breathing techniques improve your communication?
And what is the mission that you're on?
I'm Jefferson Fisher. I'm a board-certified trial attorney, and I teach people how to argue less, and say more. And I'm on a mission to help change everything about someone simply by what they decide to say next. What is a trial attorney? Is that a lawyer? Yeah, it's a lawyer, attorney, same thing. And what do you do as a trial attorney? So I help people resolve conflict, resolve problems.
So if you have a problem with someone, you have a choice, Do you go and just punch them in the mouth or do you sue them? A lot of the times it's something that somebody has hurt you that they cannot give back to you. So the only way they do that in the law is to compensate them with money. And so you can sue just about anybody. So that's how we resolve conflict here a lot in America.
It's the same for the U.K. and litigation. So what we do is we advocate on behalf of other people.
So you're in the courtroom and you're against another trial attorney, essentially, trying to make the case for your party.
Exactly.
Yes, sir. But doesn't that come down to your ability to articulate yourself and to persuade and to convince someone of your fact? Wholeheartedly. Yeah, right.
Yeah, what I say, the words that I give give me the difference between somebody getting their peace of mind back or losing everything.
And how does one learn? Like, how did you learn that? Where did your skill come from in that regard? Because you're regarded as one of the very best at what you do. So where did you learn? So I am a fifth generation trial attorney.
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Chapter 4: What is the impact of filler words and over-apologizing?
Really, I had a first-row view of how litigation happens and how to persuade and what are the levers in conversation that push that forward progress.
You've written the book on conversation, Argue Less, Talk More. Why does it matter to the average person listening now that's just clicked on this conversation? Why does it matter to them? Yeah.
Where some people would teach you how to play an instrument, I tell you what chords to play. I give you the sheet music. And so once you know where you are, even in your voice, what matters are the actual words that you say.
And I can change two sentences, two words, and change your life just by what you decide to say next because where you've been in your whole life comes down to your communication and how you handle conflict. Where you left one relationship because of most likely some type of communication led you to another or where you are in your job or where you are in a podcast.
It all comes down to what you've communicated and where you are in the conversation at all times.
Do you really think it's that pivotal to your outcomes in life? Oh, absolutely. So if I became a 10 out of 10 communicator, like I became the best communicator in the world, what outcomes in my life, what areas of my life do you think will radically improve?
I think you could almost get to wherever you wanted to go if you were a 10 out of 10 communicator. How you get hired for jobs, let's say in your career, comes down almost exclusively to how you communicated right there in that interview. You know people who have a wonderful resume, right? but they have no ability to communicate that.
And without the ability to say anything, and say it at least effectively, then they're not going to get what they want. Or you have people who have been in those relationships where they've continually been stepped on, and they're wonderful people inside.
And if they were only with the right person, or if they could express how they wanted and what they needed at that time, their whole world would really change.
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Chapter 5: How can you enhance your assertive voice?
It's such an unfair advantage if you can communicate. Like you can be 50% as good in terms of skills or experience, but if you can communicate effectively, the unfair advantage you will have in your life, I think, is just completely disproportionate. I couldn't agree more.
You have a huge head start in this space. If you're somebody who you may know more than anybody else in that class, but if you don't have the ability to take up the room, if you don't have the ability to capture somebody's attention and hold it and communicate what you need, nobody will listen. And it is an unfair advantage.
That's a great way to put it. And what's the downside then? So if I'm a terrible communicator, if I'm a 1 out of 10 communicator currently, A, what does that look like? But B, what do the outcomes look like in my life?
The outcomes are you're going to start to be negative on yourself. You're going to start to talk to yourself in very negative ways. And really, it's a hopeless feeling. You're going to run into relationships where you're running into the same problem. You're going to go into jobs where you start to run into the same problem. It's almost cyclical.
where you're not being able to say what you need to say. That makes a huge difference when you say, look, I'm not going to allow myself to be treated this way anymore.
When you don't even know how to voice your own boundaries or enforce those boundaries or things of how you want and where you want to go in your life, what you're going to find is you're just going to be unhappier more often and more unsatisfied. And that's a really hopeless feeling.
How many followers have you got online now across all your channels? I think we're close to 12 million. Crazy. Yeah, you're telling me. Is there an attorney that has that many followers on Earth?
No.
What is it you're doing for those 12 million people at the very core of it?
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Chapter 6: Why should arguments be seen as something to unravel?
So often we think of first impressions versus the next conversation. So you and I meet the first time or you meet your date or somebody you first job interview. And everything's great. Everybody has their best face on. Everything's wonderful. But it's typically that next conversation where something's different.
You get to learn if the first impression is the lasting impression, if somebody was really who you thought that they were. You put it in terms of an everyday argument, let's say with a spouse. Mm-hmm. Or friend, you have friction, that friction ignites and then you start to both yell at each other and then you throw insults at each other and everything gets louder and louder and louder.
Eventually somebody crosses the line and says something they don't mean and it dies. You go, forget this, I'm out of here, gone, they leave. Then there's a next conversation, and that one sounds a lot different than the first one. It sounds a lot quieter, a lot slower. People say, what I meant to say was, or, yeah, I shouldn't have said that. My intent was, then they start to clarify.
Then they start to apologize. Then they refrain. Oh, I can see how you take it that way. No, no, no. What I meant was, What they care about in the next conversation is always much different than what they focused on in the first conversation. So the key is, how do you take that next conversation and get it there to be the first one?
And where do we have to start to understand this? I want to be a much better communicator. conversation list and I want to be a much more effective communicator. I want to argue less. I want to talk more. I want to be heard more. This is probably reflective of most people listening right now.
So if I was a student of yours coming in to be trained by you, where is the first place you would start with me? Number one, you say it with control. Okay. What do you mean by that?
So when you're in an argument with somebody, what happens automatically is your fight or flight starts to take over, even in a little argument, especially even in the small ones. If I disagree with your opinion, your fight or flight kicks in because your body is saying, hey, I'm being undermined. Your mind is telling you, hey, I didn't like that.
What he's saying is different from what I'm saying. You know what? We're going to think of some other things. It's going to put that down. Immediately what I want to do is say something that is going to fight. In other words, I'm going to hurt you. I want to say something that's going to cut you. I want to say something that is hurtful. Or we run from it.
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Chapter 7: How do personal histories affect our communication?
You ever had somebody been on the phone and go, you know, I'm over this, and they hang up?
Yeah.
Or they go, I'm out of here. You know what? Forget this. And they go and slam the door. That's their flight. They're leaving. I feel threatened in this current moment by this conflict, by this differing view, so I need to get out of it. When you decide to say it with control, you make sure that that doesn't happen. And it all begins with your breath. All right, that's the key.
So what I teach every one of my clients is let your breath be the first word that you say. So we'll run through it right now. That's cool. All right, so let's do an exaggerated one. And what this is called, and it takes advantage of, is a physiological sigh. So what we're going to do is two seconds in through the nose. One more at the top, and then go .
Yeah, okay, how do you feel after you do that?
Very relaxed.
Yeah, all right, cool. So what we're gonna do is get a shortcut to that exact result. This time, we're gonna do it, same thing, but don't make the noise. One more at the top. Through the mouth again. Now, instead of the mouth, only through the nose, ready? Now that was a, now we did that almost a little, that was very intentional.
So let's do it again, but give it a haircut as if like you don't even, you're not even gonna get me to notice. Ready? That right there. Now that is your go-to. Whenever somebody is telling you something that you disagree with, that is your go-to before you even say your first word. Because it is going to make sure that that fight or flight never kicks in.
It keeps that analytical side, that logical side in it the whole time. Instead of going, oh, but wait, they can't yell at me like that. No, no, that's a dumb idea. Can you believe that you say, instead of that, that's your fight or flight. You never even gave yourself a chance to breathe.
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Chapter 8: What strategies can you use to deal with disrespect?
It was a good day. I liked it. You see how one says, I didn't even think about what you asked me? The other says, no, I actually thought about the question. I considered it, and then I chose my answer. And so you can do that even when, especially for leaders, they go into a very busy work environment where there are problems right on the floor.
They have to address this right at that current moment. The bad leaders will get very hectic and rise to that same level of energy. The great leaders will capture the calm energy. They inject that breath and go, okay, what's next? Have you ever, my grandfather, for example, I can ask him one time, I was like, hey, do you know where your screwdriver is? And he goes, Yeah.
I mean, like, you know what I mean? But there's something about it where these kind of people in your life that you're looking and drawn to the calm energy, the anchors in your relationship and your conversations, the people that just to be near them, calms you down. Just to be around them, you go, okay, great. Stephen's here. I feel better. Good. Okay, he's here.
All right, things are going to go all right. Because they're looking for the person who is going to be the lead, not just in the conversation, but the frequency of the room. It's a calm energy that you have to capture.
When you took that pause when I asked you how your day had been, two interesting observations I had. The first is, whatever you were about to say next, I trusted more. Because you'd had some time to think and you weren't just spewing out your like automatic response. So I thought, oh gosh, what's he going to say here? And there was this element of like, he's really thinking.
He's like, he really cares about giving me the honest answer. And the second one is I was just so much more intrigued. Right. Because I could see you thinking, so I thought this is going to be an interesting response. Yeah. And that was all in that one second where you took a breath.
You can see that a lot in interviews. The person who you go, oh, this person is smart, is when you ask them a regular interview question, and if they give a breath before they answer, you go, oh, they actually are listening to me. The ones that have this rapid fire of...
So let's say, for example, and this uses another technique that we'll talk about, is if you were to say, would you bring some value? Do you think you'd bring value to this company? And if I automatically said, oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I would. I think I'd bring a lot of value to this company. Versus? I'm confident I bring a lot of value to this company.
Like you hear all of a sudden, you go, that's my person. They actually heard me, considered it, and I'm really curious about what they're going to say next.
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