The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Oops! He Did It Again: Secretary Hegseth on the Defensive over Second Signal Chat
Tue, 22 Apr 2025
Jen Psaki delves into the storm brewing at the Pentagon, amid a wave of firings new revelations that embattled Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared sensitive information on another signal chat. Veteran journalist Bob Woodward reflects on Hegseth's apparent incompetency, as well as the increasingly reckless actions of an unaccountable president. Later, 25-year-old vice chair of the Democratic National Committee, David Hogg, joins to discuss his controversial new initiative to oust some Democratic incumbents, as well as the criticism he's received from fellow democrats like James Carville. Check out our social pages below:https://twitter.com/InsideWithPsakihttps://www.instagram.com/InsideWithPsaki/https://www.tiktok.com/@insidewithpsakihttps://www.msnbc.com/jen-psakihttps://bsky.app/profile/insidewithpsaki.msnbc.com
Chapter 1: Who is Bob Woodward and why is he significant?
OK, the first thing I should tell you tonight is that Bob Woodward is here. Yes, that Bob Woodward, all the president's men, Bob Woodward, the reporter who toppled the president, Bob Woodward.
I can tell you that when you're working in government and Bob Woodward's number pops up on your phone, which has happened to me, your heart rate picks up a little bit, no matter what administration you're in. And he's going to be here at the table in just a few minutes.
But first, I want to show you something he said the last time we spoke, because it was right after the election, just a few weeks after. And one of the things we talked about was the glaring incompetence of the people Donald Trump was picking for his cabinet. People like Pete Hexeth.
Chapter 2: What are the allegations against Secretary Pete Hegseth?
I have known, over the reporting time I've had for five decades, 16 secretaries of defense, going back even before I was a reporter, Robert McNamara. And they have to know management. They have to know what the responsibility is. They have to know where the levers of power are. And in this appointee, I see none of that.
Sixteen secretaries of defense. I see none of that, is what he said. And yet it didn't take an investigative mind like Bob Woodward's to know that Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense might be slightly problematic. I mean, before running the U.S.
military, he was a weekend morning show host on Fox News with a reputation for going years without washing his hands, which, by the way, is his admission, just to make it even weirder. And no shade to cable news hosts, obviously, even ones who get a little crazy on New Year's Eve, you can see there. It's not a job that exactly prepares you to run the Pentagon as your next step.
There were also the countless allegations of Hegseth drinking on the job, both at veterans organizations and at Fox News. The New Yorker reported he once got so drunk that he had to be restrained from getting on a stage at a Louisiana strip club. There were the allegations that he ran those relatively small veterans organizations into the ground financially.
And of course, there were the allegations about his abuse of women, including his second wife. He denied all of it, of course, but yeah, it's safe to say there were some signs that maybe this guy wasn't exactly fit for the job of overseeing the Defense Department. And so when we saw this headline at the end of March, it was one of those things that was both shocking but kind of unsurprising.
And the very first paragraph of Jeffrey Goldberg's story was, again, both shocking but entirely unsurprising in a lot of ways. I mean, here's what it said, quote, The world found out shortly before 2 p.m. Eastern time on March 15th that the United States was bombing Houthi targets across Yemen. I, however, knew two hours before the first bombs exploded that the attack might be coming.
The reason I knew this is that Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, had texted me the war plan at 1144 a.m. The plan included precise information about weapons, packages, targets, and timing.
Well, a few hours after that story was published, Jeffrey Goldberg was here at this table, and we watched together as Pete Hegseth looked straight into the camera and lied about what Jeffrey Goldberg knew to be true.
Talking about a deceitful and highly discredited so-called journalist who's made a profession of peddling hoaxes time and time again. Nobody was texting war plans, and that's all I have to say about that.
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Chapter 3: What sensitive information did Hegseth share?
But over the past few days, we started to get this sense that something else might be coming out of Pete Hegseth's Pentagon. Because on Friday, top officials of the Pentagon started getting fired. And they started getting fired for, wait for it, this is almost my favorite detail, leaking. And believe me, the irony is only going to get richer as we keep telling this story.
Three Pentagon officials close to Hegseth, his former senior advisor Dan Caldwell, former deputy chief of staff Jaron Selnick, and the deputy defense secretary's chief of staff Colin Carroll, confirmed they were placed on administrative leave. On Friday, we also learned that Joe Casper, Hegseth's own chief of staff, would be transferring to a different role in the Pentagon.
And John Elliott, another senior Pentagon official, also said he resigned last week, although the Pentagon said they asked him to resign. So lots of firings, a bunch of resignations, apparently about leaks. So yeah, it kind of felt like something was coming. Well, lo and behold, late yesterday afternoon, the New York Times dropped a bombshell report about another signal chat.
The Times writes, quote, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared detailed information about forthcoming strikes in Yemen on March 15th in a private signal group chat that included his wife, brother, and personal lawyer.
Some of those people said that the information Hexa shared on the signal chat included the flight schedules for the F-A-18 Hornets targeting the Houthis in Yemen, essentially the same attack plans that he shared on a separate signal chat the same day that mistakenly included the editor of The Atlantic. Now,
Hegseth's brother Phil does work at the Pentagon, although he is not anywhere near a role that directly involves military operations, and for good reason. As the AP reports, based on Phil Hegseth's publicly available resume, his past experience includes founding his own podcast production company and working on social media and podcasts at the Hudson Institute.
That said, Phil the podcaster might have some kind of security clearance. We really don't know. As for Hegseth's wife, well, she has already been kind of a point of contention. You see, Jennifer Hegseth does not actually work for the Department of Defense, and yet we know that she has been sitting in on sensitive meetings.
As the Wall Street Journal reported just last month, quote, one of the meetings, a high-level discussion, took place at a sensitive moment for the transatlantic alliance, one day after the U.S. said it had cut off military intelligence sharing with Ukraine. The group discussed the U.S. rationale behind that decision.
The Pentagon has been asked in the past about whether Jennifer, a former Fox News producer, has a security clearance. I don't know why she would, but who knows? They have declined to answer the question, which is quite telling on its own. But here's the thing.
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Chapter 4: How are Hegseth's actions affecting his position?
This is what happens when the entire Pentagon is working against you and working against the monumental change that you are trying to implement.
The trumpet in that first few parts is quite something in the background. But that aside, I mean, the Pentagon is working against Pete Hegseth, like the entire Pentagon as an institution. Did the entire Pentagon as an institution type a signal text chain on the Secretary of Defense's personal phone that included detailed military operations and then force him to include his wife and brother?
Because that would be quite a story. That would be a huge story. Of course, that's not what happened. And these are the same non-denial denials that Trump World always churns out. When they know that a reporter has caught them red-handed, doing something they're not supposed to do. It's how they were kind of used to this by now.
Seems like every day this administration is scrambling to clean up one mess or another mess. Because when it comes to staffing the government, Donald Trump isn't sending his best. As I said at the top of the show, Bob Woodward is standing by. And once upon a time, there was a movie many of you probably saw made about his dealings with perhaps the most famous leaker in American history.
And just listen to the way history rhymes in this scene from All the President's Men.
Forget the myths the media has created about the White House. The truth is, they're not very bright guys and things got out of hand.
The real Bob Woodward is standing by and he joins me in just 60 seconds. As promised, joining me now is legendary journalist and associate managing editor of The Washington Post, Bob Woodward. Bob, it's great to see you. That movie is so good. So it was just a reminder of what a moment in history that was. But I was so excited to talk to you for a million reasons.
I've read all your books, but also you've covered 16 secretaries of defense. I think I got that right. I know I said that earlier. Yes. And I know we talked about Secretary Hegseth. He wasn't the secretary then when we when we last spoke in November. And there's so much that's happened since then. You know so well about the functioning of the Pentagon and what impacts things.
Is there anything that surprised you and what concerns you the most about what you've seen in terms of his leadership?
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Chapter 5: What did Bob Woodward say about Hegseth's leadership?
Well, it goes to the commander in chief and the commander in chief should put the obligation on his own shoulders to make sure there's somebody there. I'm going to go back to saying that deputy chief. president for war. War is the most serious undertaking that this country ever gets involved in. And I just I mean, this seems not serious. It seems too jokey. And
It's in Trump's interest to have a very, very, very serious enterprise in that five sided building, which is certainly one of the most complicated buildings. institutions in civilization anywhere.
No question. I don't know if you heard me say that, but I said that when you see Bob Woodward on your phone calling, you get a little nervous if you're in the government because you are a very well sourced and knowledgeable reporter for many years. And I was wondering, I mean, I've been the signal gate or the signal chain scandal, whatever you want to call it.
It struck me because I spent so many years working for presidents and a secretary of state where you have to be so careful about your handling of classified information for a range of reasons, including that adversaries can get their hands on it. You can put operations at risk. You can put sources and methods at risk. We know about now two or more signal chats.
I suspect there are many more, given nobody objected on the signal chats. What do you think about this story? Do you think there's more underneath it that we should be concerned about?
I don't think so. But maybe we'll discover that it had some consequence. I mean, it didn't interrupt the military action that was going to take place and did take place. But it's careless and it shouldn't be careless. And these people should not be careless. Old rule, leadership starts at the top. Somebody's got to demand, let's tighten this. Let's do our best and show our best.
And we're not seeing that. And I don't, you know, where do we go? Why do we have this condition? We should not. Trump cares, again, as I say, about loyalty, not competence. And competence is the essence of jobs like this.
I suspect that's why Pete Hegseth might be sticking around. We're going to see what other signal chats come about and any intel impacts, and then we're going to have you back and talk more about it. We'll see. But I know you said you could stick around. Can you still stick around for another block?
Certainly.
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Chapter 6: What are the implications of Hegseth's leadership for the Pentagon?
No question about it. I mean, in the first term, he kind of went to the brink. He did some of it. He was pulled back by some people internally. Clearly, he's not now. Obviously, this is getting a ton of coverage, as it should out there, so people can understand what's happening. But you have covered, you've followed Trump. You know his thinking.
For people who think he's going to back off from pressure from the business community, from others... Do you think he's going to, or are you concerned he may not?
Well, it may— The theme, and I've spent a long time, one year, 2020, the last year of his first presidency, interviewing him 19 times for nine hours. And you get a real sense, more than a sense. But, you know, what's it all about? Why? And it's all about him. It's not about the consequences of his action. And is it power?
his what his gut instinct is when you say him.
What do you mean by him? Yeah. The Trump who makes decisions in the Trump who makes decisions. There's no coherence. There's no plan. It's very random. I feel that we see it daily. And he is now on a vengeance tour of, you know, people who've worked for him or have not worked for him, people he doesn't like or thinks he doesn't like.
I mean, using executive orders to attack people as he has by name and institutions, that's not what... I mean, somebody... needs to say to him, what's the goal? What are you trying to do? Are you trying to disrupt and smash the country you lead? Is it vengeance? Is it some sort of payback? It's it's very troubling. And he the people who are paying are the people who can afford to pay the least.
Prices are going to go up. There is going to there's I actually wrote out this is this is boring. But I took a broad survey of, you know, what? does all of this mean particularly about tariffs which he loves which you know can boost manufacturing in the u.s a little bit but not much it will protect some jobs but not much i mean it's proven by what has not happened so Increase prices for everyone.
That's a disaster. Slow economic growth, which is the mainstay of what the president should say. How do I accelerate economic growth? Most presidents would. Lowing business profits. Businesses are hurting. Job losses. decreasing productivity of our workforce. And, you know, what's happening abroad, rattling foreign governments saying, what the hell is going on in the United States?
No question about it. Let me ask you, there's so many stories and we've covered a lot of them to cover right now and to pay attention to. You have decades of experience of knowing when there's more threads to pull from stories because there's more there that people should know.
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Chapter 7: How does the White House respond to criticisms of Hegseth?
His organization called Leaders We Deserve is planning to spend, they hope to spend, $20 million to oust some Democratic incumbents and to elect younger members in their place. He says they will focus heavily on House races and back primary challengers only in safe Democratic districts. We'll talk to him more about what he's thinking at this point.
Now, David predicted that this might anger a lot of people, his words, and he was kind of right. I mean, longtime Democratic strategist, he's been on this show a number of times, James Carville, said it was the most insane thing he's ever heard. And Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries also weighed in when he was asked over the weekend.
I look forward to standing behind every single Democratic incumbent from the most progressive to the most centrist and all points in between. Primaries are a fact of life. But here's the thing. I'm going to really focus on trying to defeat Republican incumbents so we can take back control of the House of Representatives.
So clearly David Hogg has struck a bit of a nerve. Sometimes winning does require doing things differently, thinking about things differently, at least having a conversation about it. So that's what we're going to do. He is now vice chair of the DNC, and he joins me now. David, how are you? Good to see you.
You had a week. Thank you for having me.
Let me just start by asking you, I mean, Speaker, he's not Speaker yet, let's hope. Leader Jeffries, he obviously has a big stake in winning the House. As do all of us. Becoming Speaker, everyone does, but he would become Speaker of the House, of course. He clearly has a different view of how this should be approached. He's talked about defending incumbents. You have a different take.
Help people understand why.
The fact of the matter is right now, if you look at where we are on the generic Democratic ballot, if we had the midterms today, we're most likely not going to win the House back. Our approvals are not very good right now. They're at about 27% for our party. And the fact of the matter is we have to make sure This is not just a messaging problem, unfortunately.
We say all the time, this is just messaging, this is just messaging.
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Chapter 8: What broader issues are related to Trump's administration?
So is there, because one of the things I know you're thinking about is just what are the criteria? You've said you're not going to go after Jan Schakowsky or Nancy Pelosi because you think they're effective members. I think those are your words. Is it over a certain age? Is it, how many districts is it? What are the specifics at this point?
So right now, let me be clear, this is not specifically when it comes to the candidates that we are targeting. It's not just, oh, if you're over a certain age, you should not be doing this. Unfortunately, there are people of all ages who are failing to meet this moment in different ways right now. What we're looking at, it's not out with the old and in with the new.
It is out with the ineffective and in with the effective. And part of what we're doing with this announcement is waiting to see who retires here and says, you know what, it is time. I'm not ready to meet this moment anymore. And I know for a lot of our members that they will decide that ultimately.
OK, I know I love about you that you never hold back and you say what you think. I'm wondering, because James Carville said this was a crazy idea or a bad idea. Yeah.
Now, he also predicted we would win the election in a way.
A lot of people predicted that that what is true is a lot of people predicted that. Now, he is he is definitely not a young person. I don't think even he would say that he did help a governor. Most people had not heard of an unlikely path to the presidency. So I guess my question for you is why take the bait and attack him back?
Why in this moment? I think the fact of the matter is, we say over and over again, we just need to listen to the experts over and over and over. And of course, experience matters. But experience is only as useful as it's actually working. We had $2 billion last election cycle, and we still lost. And I think part of the problem that we have here is a major brand problem at the Democratic Party.
When people go into the ballot box, they're not just thinking, oh, how am I thinking about my frontline member of Congress, for example? That's obviously important, and we need to support those members, and we plan to support some of them, obviously. What they're thinking about, though, is what do I think about the Democratic Party?
And that is the product not just of one member of Congress, but all of our Democratic members of Congress, and what they're doing and how they're fighting back. And the fact of the matter is, right now, we are failing to meet that moment around the country. And we're seeing it in our town halls.
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