Jordan Peterson faces 20 atheists in Jubilee's Surrounded, defending four controversial claims: atheists reject God without understanding what they're rejecting, science can't provide morality or purpose, everyone worships something whether they know it or not, and atheists steal Christian values while denying Christianity's foundation. Will Peterson convert the non-believers or get crushed by the crowd? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What controversial claims does Jordan Peterson make?
David, good to see you. Tell me everything that you know about the Polynesian deity Lono, L-O-N-O. I don't know anything about the Polynesian deity Lono. So you're rejecting something without knowledge of what you're rejecting. I'm not rejecting it.
No more than I'm rejecting anything that I don't know anything about. Do you believe in Lono? Do you believe that he is a deity that exists in the world, exists in the universe, that exists in the... existence of everything? Do you believe that Lono is a being?
I'll answer that question once you answer my question, which is, do I reject everything that I'm ignorant of? Because that's your presupposition that undergirds your argument. And unless you can prove that that's valid, then there's no point. My question is quite simple. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's formulated accurately. Do you believe that Lono exists? Yes or no?
I'm not going to answer that question for the reasons I just described. You already insisted that if I reject something, that if I'm ignorant of something, I reject it. Do you think that everyone in the world has to know everything simultaneously for that to be valid and true?
I think in order for your argument to be true, in order for it to be true that we atheists don't understand what we're rejecting, then you need to also apply that to yourself and to Christians and to Muslims and to any other person on this earth where if you don't understand what you're rejecting the belief in, then you can't reject the belief in it. That's the implication of your claim.
I didn't say that I rejected the belief in Lona. I said I didn't know who Lona was. I didn't say anything about rejecting it.
That's because I've asked you several times and you haven't, but let me get to my even greater point. You're saying atheists don't understand what... religion is or what God is in order to be able to reject it fully or completely. We have someone over here who studied it in their own way. I've studied religion.
I have a degree in religious studies, specialty in Christianity and Mediterranean traditions. And further than that, beyond me, Pew Research studies suggest that atheists and agnostics actually know more about religion and about religious stories, the foundational principles, than believers. That's because they're more religious than they think they are. Okay.
You can... Well, they're concerned with deep matters, and one of the defining characteristics of someone who's oriented in a religious direction is that they're concerned with deep matters. Okay. In fact, it's virtually definitional. Right, but they also have to identify with a religious tradition and accept the foundational stories that go along with that.
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Chapter 2: Do atheists understand what they are rejecting?
And when I was on the highway coming here to the studio, I was physically moving, I was changing my position. If I said, I believe the Mona Lisa is very moving, And you said, you don't really understand what you're saying. It's nailed to the wall. I would say that you're the one who doesn't understand what I'm saying, not the other way around.
And the way that relates to this is there are many concepts of God. And I'll admit, I find a lot of what you say about that interesting. I'm familiar with it. The idea of this kind of union hierarchical thing or as a metaphor or a symbol or or the kind of atheist, materialist, literalist idea of agentic, omnipotent, omniscient being that intervenes in reality, right?
So when I'm saying that I reject the concept of God, I'm aware of these other definitions of God, but I think that when we use words, we tend to only imply one meaning at a time. So the same way that I would say the Mona Lisa is moving emotionally, but I would not say it's moving physically, I would say I reject the concept of God in this very literal way. What literal way?
The way that God is this omniscient, omnipotent, agentic, supernatural being that sent his son down and has, you know, caused miracles and all these things like that. The idea of God is like... Do you think that there's an underlying unity of things? Could you explain that question?
Well, scientists, for example, believe that science unifies in a comprehensive theory. Do you? Yes? No? Or that there are multiple competing truths? Those are the options. Either things unify, or there are multiple competing truths. I think that, I know that, for example, like in physics, people are looking for like a theory of everything. Why do you think they're doing that?
It's interesting, it's helpful. But they also believe that there's an underlying unity to things. In a sense, yeah. You mean like the material world and time and space are probably governed by universal laws and principles? Partly that, yes, yes. But that the same thing might extend to a broader domain that would include imagination and value. Could you help me connect that to the prompt?
Well, I'm trying to define God, the God that I don't think atheists do a very good job of defining. Here's another question for you. What do you think guides you in your determination of whether or not what you're saying to me is true? Can we go back, can we stay on what we were talking about? We are. Okay. You're just uncomfortable with the question.
No, I feel like you're just kind of throwing different spaghetti at the wall. I'm not. Okay. I asked you a very specific question. What is it that you think guides you when you're talking to me to help you determine whether what you say is true? Logic, memory, reasoning, sensory information. How do you distinguish that from being governed by something that's false? That's an interesting question.
How do you know the difference when you speak between what's true and what's false? So you could imagine... I infer, right? I can infer, I can... From what principles? So, and what are you getting at? I'm getting at the fact that your conscience guides you. Is that reasonable?
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Chapter 3: How is morality derived if not from science?
It's directly relevant. Atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting. You accept conscience as a guide, and conscience is one of the defining characteristics of God in the Old Testament. I think you're being intellectually disingenuous. In what way? I asked you if you believe the conscience guided you.
You just asked me a question and then you stopped me from answering it. In this setting, you understand the way I am using the term God and belief. Not in the least. I don't understand how you're using it in the least. That's why I'm trying to define it. My definition of God as conscience is a lot more precise and oriented than your definition of the God that you hypothetically disbelieve in.
It's irrelevant to the fault lines of this debate. How is it irrelevant? Because in common parlance, when we're talking about atheists, God, belief, not belief, we're not talking... I don't care about common parlance. I'm trying to get to something fundamental.
I think your point is irrelevant to the way that people tend to use these words. Your point that there are these polysemous ideas of God. I didn't make that point. You did. I made a specific point that God was associated with conscience. I just feel like you kind of retreat into this semantic fog. I'm not retreating at all. I'm advancing, sir. You are retreating.
Well, it was very nice to meet you. I appreciate the conversation. It's very brave of you to do this. Thank you. My next claim is that morality and purpose cannot be found within science. What is up, Mr. Canada? How you doing, man? I'm doing great. What's your name? Brian. I think it's interesting that you say that morality and purpose can't be found in science. Actually... Not within science?
Within... Sure, sure, sure, sure. Purpose, I actually grant you because purpose is subjective, right? Unless you want to boil it down to the purpose of life is just to procreate, right? Sure, whatever. Morality is actually something that we do see. We actually have examples of
Neanderthals, an older individual was found in a tribe, missing an arm, missing teeth, still alive somehow in his 40s, 50s, right? Typically, you're a Neanderthal, you can't eat, you can't hunt, you die, right? But we know that members of the tribe retain care of him, right? So we know that at some level, early in our evolutionary history, we actually developed altruism.
We have examples of chimpanzees who I actually have a basic understanding of fairness, right? If you give a chimpanzee two grapes, right? And his buddy gets three, right? He actually freaks out, right? But you give both chimps three grapes and they're good. We have examples of parrots. Except for the greedy chimps.
Except for the greedy chimps. They want four grapes. They want four grapes. You know, those do exist, right? But we have similar examples where we do animal tests, right? And- So morality is intrinsic. I think- So it precedes science.
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Chapter 4: What does it mean to worship something?
How does my definition of morality hypothetically differ from yours?
Because you're saying that there's something that exists in a vacuum, that it exists in and of itself, and nothing in the universe exists in a vacuum. Nothing exists in and of itself. It's a whole systems-based morality. It's a systems-based reality. Is there a hierarchical structure?
And that is what the quantum... Is there a hierarchical structure? Are some things more important than others?
I think some things lead to more benefits than others.
Then, by your own definition, some things are more important than others.
Yes. Okay.
Pause there. You've been voted out by the majority. I appreciate it.
How are you doing? Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I guess since you said morality and purpose cannot be found in science, it would just depend on like what you're referencing. If you're saying a description of your psychological preferences would be considered within science, sure. But I don't think that you have to say that it comes from science in order to be like an atheist.
As an agnostic atheist, I don't know if God exists and I don't believe that a God exists. And the only ones that I would really reject would be like the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, perfect notion of God that plenty of Christians like prescribe themselves. How is that relevant to this claim?
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