Jordan Peterson faces 20 atheists in Jubilee's Surrounded, defending four controversial claims: atheists reject God without understanding what they're rejecting, science can't provide morality or purpose, everyone worships something whether they know it or not, and atheists steal Christian values while denying Christianity's foundation. Will Peterson convert the non-believers or get crushed by the crowd? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What controversial claims does Jordan Peterson make?
David, good to see you. Tell me everything that you know about the Polynesian deity Lono, L-O-N-O.
I don't know anything about the Polynesian deity Lono.
So you're rejecting something without knowledge of what you're rejecting.
I'm not rejecting it.
No more than I'm rejecting anything that I don't know anything about. Do you believe in Lono? Do you believe that he is a deity that exists in the world, exists in the universe, that exists in the... existence of everything? Do you believe that Lono is a being?
I'll answer that question once you answer my question, which is, do I reject everything that I'm ignorant of? Because that's your presupposition that undergirds your argument. And unless you can prove that that's valid, then there's no point.
My question is quite simple.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's formulated accurately.
Do you believe that Lono exists? Yes or no?
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Chapter 2: Do atheists understand what they are rejecting?
And when I was on the highway coming here to the studio, I was physically moving, I was changing my position. If I said, I believe the Mona Lisa is very moving, And you said, you don't really understand what you're saying. It's nailed to the wall. I would say that you're the one who doesn't understand what I'm saying, not the other way around.
And the way that relates to this is there are many concepts of God. And I'll admit, I find a lot of what you say about that interesting. I'm familiar with it. The idea of this kind of union hierarchical thing or as a metaphor or a symbol or or the kind of atheist, materialist, literalist idea of agentic, omnipotent, omniscient being that intervenes in reality, right?
So when I'm saying that I reject the concept of God, I'm aware of these other definitions of God, but I think that when we use words, we tend to only imply one meaning at a time. So the same way that I would say the Mona Lisa is moving emotionally, but I would not say it's moving physically, I would say I reject the concept of God in this very literal way. What literal way?
The way that God is this omniscient, omnipotent, agentic, supernatural being that sent his son down and has, you know, caused miracles and all these things like that.
The idea of God is like... Do you think that there's an underlying unity of things?
Could you explain that question?
Well, scientists, for example, believe that science unifies in a comprehensive theory. Do you? Yes? No? Or that there are multiple competing truths? Those are the options. Either things unify, or there are multiple competing truths.
I think that, I know that, for example, like in physics, people are looking for like a theory of everything.
Why do you think they're doing that?
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Chapter 3: How is morality derived if not from science?
It's directly relevant. Atheists reject God, but they don't understand what they're rejecting. You accept conscience as a guide, and conscience is one of the defining characteristics of God in the Old Testament.
I think you're being intellectually disingenuous.
In what way? I asked you if you believe the conscience guided you.
You just asked me a question and then you stopped me from answering it. In this setting, you understand the way I am using the term God and belief.
Not in the least. I don't understand how you're using it in the least. That's why I'm trying to define it. My definition of God as conscience is a lot more precise and oriented than your definition of the God that you hypothetically disbelieve in.
It's irrelevant to the fault lines of this debate.
How is it irrelevant?
Because in common parlance, when we're talking about atheists, God, belief, not belief, we're not talking... I don't care about common parlance.
I'm trying to get to something fundamental.
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Chapter 4: What does it mean to worship something?
How does my definition of morality hypothetically differ from yours?
Because you're saying that there's something that exists in a vacuum, that it exists in and of itself, and nothing in the universe exists in a vacuum. Nothing exists in and of itself. It's a whole systems-based morality. It's a systems-based reality. Is there a hierarchical structure?
And that is what the quantum... Is there a hierarchical structure? Are some things more important than others?
I think some things lead to more benefits than others.
Then, by your own definition, some things are more important than others.
Yes. Okay.
Pause there. You've been voted out by the majority. I appreciate it.
How are you doing? Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. I guess since you said morality and purpose cannot be found in science, it would just depend on like what you're referencing. If you're saying a description of your psychological preferences would be considered within science, sure. But I don't think that you have to say that it comes from science in order to be like an atheist.
As an agnostic atheist, I don't know if God exists and I don't believe that a God exists. And the only ones that I would really reject would be like the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, perfect notion of God that plenty of Christians like prescribe themselves.
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