My guest is Dr. Karolina Westlund, Ph.D., a professor of ethology at the University of Stockholm and an expert in animal emotions and behavior who uses science-based methods to improve the lives of animals in human care. We discuss the often overlooked needs of domesticated animals—primarily dogs and cats—and the things we can do to improve their well-being and our relationship with them. We cover how to interpret animal body language, the unique needs of specific dog breeds, and the needs of cats and birds. We also discuss the pros and cons of spaying and neutering and how weaning age impacts a pet’s attachment style. Whether you’re a pet owner, trainer, or simply an animal lover, this episode teaches you how specific pet behaviors are rooted in their immutable biology—and the simple things you can do to vastly improve your pets’ health and well-being, as well as your relationship with them. Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com.huberman Our Place: https://fromourplace.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Karolina Westlund 00:02:19 Students & Animal Species; Horses 00:06:36 Dog Breeds & Interaction, Predatory Sequence, Smell, Domestication 00:12:42 Sponsors: Our Place & Eight Sleep 00:16:09 Dog Breeds & Domestication, Bulldogs 00:20:16 Core Affect Space, Petting, Tool: Consent Test; Polyvagal Theory 00:27:53 Space, Dominance, Resources, Leash Walking; Dog-Owner Training 00:37:13 Tail Wagging & Interpreting Body Signals, Facial Expressions 00:43:24 Play Bow, Tool: MARS & Playing; Dogs & Empathy 00:48:39 Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv 00:51:46 Fairness, Social Groups; Anthropomorphism vs Anthropodenial 00:57:45 Cats, Hunting, Bring Gifts?, Interaction & Socialization 01:03:56 Scent & Territorial Marking; Covering Waste, Tool: Litter Box Placement 01:08:17 “Pee Mail” & Communication; Wolves, Domestication 01:11:54 Zoos, Conservation; Tigers 01:18:53 Sponsor: Function 01:20:41 Stalking; Birds, Parrots 01:25:22 Nose Work, Wildlife Chasing, Tool: Dog Feeding & Challenge 01:31:01 Understanding & Choosing Dog for Your Lifestyle, Tool: Introducing Cats 01:34:27 Recognizing Self vs Other, Inbreeding Avoidance, Imprinting 01:40:51 Imprinting vs Attachment Bonds; Dogs, Weaning & Secure Attachment 01:48:36 Spaying & Neutering, Hormones, Tool: Neutering Alternatives 01:57:07 Humans as Animals, Tools, Cultural Learning 02:02:47 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What are the fundamental drives of our pets?
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Carolina Westland. Dr. Carolina Westland is an animal ethologist and expert in animal behavior.
Dr. Westland and I discuss the relationship between humans and domesticated animals with a focus on the evidence-based protocols for optimizing the mental and physical health of our pets. Dr. Westland explains the best way to interact with our animals. Now, we may assume that the way we pet our animals and exercise them and feed them makes them truly happy.
But as she points out, many of the things that people assume turn out to be false when it comes to our pets and their fundamental drives. She teaches us the very basic but powerful things that we can do to satisfy those drives, both for the animal's sake, of course, and to better our relationship with them.
We also discuss the unique neurological and physiological requirements of different dog breeds. That's a fascinating conversation that stems from their lineage from wolves. And we'll tell you whether or not your particular breed, even if it's a mutt, should be exercised in a particular way, whether or not it needs additional forms of stimulation that you're not currently giving it and so on.
And because we both realize there are also cat owners out there, too, we discuss the often misunderstood communication signals and social needs of cats. As you may know, there is a tremendous amount of debate out there about the best training and practices for taking care of our dogs and other animals.
And so much of that is grounded in speculation and training outcomes, which of course are important. The conversation today with Dr. Westland approaches animal health and welfare through the lens of ethology and the species that our pets evolved from to provide actionable protocols that are grounded in science and that you can implement right away to improve your pet's wellbeing.
So if you're a pet owner, This episode is going to be of immense value to you. If you're not a pet owner, you'll still learn a ton about animal biology and psychology, including yours. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Carolina Westland. Dr. Carolina Westland, welcome. Thank you. I'm super excited for this conversation.
Yeah, me too.
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Chapter 2: How does dog breed influence interactions?
And then we have also the sort of, I think they're sometimes referred to as toy breeds, the ones that are lap dogs who are not that interested in any of that working dog behavior. So I think it's, we need to, with regards to the different breeds, we need to really understand what purpose they were bred for, I think.
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Chapter 3: What unique needs do cats have?
Pain tolerance was very high in the front of the animal, in the face. And toward the rear of the animal, you touch his back toe. So they have a gradient of pain receptors that runs high density in the back, low density in the front. So they were bred for bull baiting. And the original line has been bred out. It's people who care about the bulldog breed and bring in some more humane animals.
breeding practices to the bulldog, because it's a pretty brutal breed now, have tried to reestablish the original line, which again, where elbows back, no strong underbite, as opposed to what you see now. So that's the sort of brief history on the bulldog. They have to be born by cesarean, because big shoulders, small hips. Anyway.
The interesting thing about the bulldog, I always said, and this will take us back to behavior, was the contract that I felt I had with my bulldog was one of he would protect me to the death. You do notice that anytime they hear a noise or anything, they're hypervigilant. If there's no impending threat, total relaxation. The most efficient use of energy of any species.
So basically it was, I'll die for you, Andrew, but unless your life is in danger, I'm not going to do anything. So maybe we could talk about temperament in dogs and how they experience their emotional life. I don't know if we can make general statements about this, but you've spent a lot of your time thinking about the emotional life of animals. What does a dog need in order to feel calm and safe?
Great question. Yeah, so in order to feel calm and safe – I think perhaps we should go to the core effect space, which I think is one of the three emotional models that I find very, very useful in understanding and providing a good environment for animals so that they can thrive, really.
So the core effect space is one way of depicting or conceptualizing emotions where we have like valence on the x-axis. So how pleasant or unpleasant something is. And we have arousal on the y-axis. So what you're asking is how can we...
make animals and i'm not just not just dogs but any species how can we put them in quadrant two of that core effect space essentially so uh low arousal and pleasant so where they're relaxed and they're feeling safe and they're they're sort of engaging socially with others and being sort of at ease, if you will. So how do we get there?
And I think that some of the things to consider is then the absence of negative emotions. So again, if we're in the core effect space in the quadrant four, with the high arousal unpleasant states, we'll find things like fear, aggression. So helping reduce that will sort of automatically help animals move to the right in the matrix.
And in the lower quadrant three, with the unpleasant low arousal state, where animals tend to end up with their sort of bored or depressed, is engaging them, providing an environment that's stimulating, that they can sort of do interesting things to help them move into the right side of the core effect space. And also to the top in that quadrant one is the high arousal, pleasant state.
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Chapter 4: How can we interpret animal body language?
I know there is one study in horses that show that if you pat a horse, many horses find that aversive. So in other words, it's something that they'll work to avoid. And yet that is often how we try to reward them when they do something that we want. They do enjoy wither scratching. So back at the nape of the mane, if you scratch them there, they'll typically enjoy that.
But I would say that different animals, different individuals will have these individual preferences and just trying to see what they like. And perhaps also if you're offering your hands like this, they might even scoot around to show you which body part they want scratched once they learn the rules of that communication.
I feel like dogs want the part of their body scratched that they can't access on their own. I'm yet to meet a dog that doesn't like being scratched on its rump.
Bum scratching is a big thing for many animals. Yeah.
Like the top side of their back leg. Yeah. Right? Like right there. Yeah. It's got to feel so good.
Yeah.
Because they can't get to that. Yeah. As well as underneath their rear leg. Right? Like just kind of in the crook of the rear leg with that soft skin there. Right? Yeah. But having interacted with dogs that were more skittish versus more calm, I totally agree that different animals, regardless of breed, just have a completely different relationship to touch and how quickly they want to interact.
I've heard, and I don't know if it's true, that for dogs, space is a big thing. I don't know if this is true. I'm sure someone will... refute this, but the idea that, you know, if your dog runs up to you when you walk in or to, you know, a dog runs up to you and it's a new dog you're just meeting and they touch you or they jump up on your shin, that it's their attempt to dominate you.
Like, this is my space. I'm controlling you. Because you wouldn't necessarily walk up to a dog that you just met and just get right in their space without kind of them approaching you as well. What are your thoughts on this whole dominant submission thing on the basis of touch and space?
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Chapter 5: What is the importance of spaying and neutering?
That's like Pandora's box there, right there.
Great. I don't have any stake in this. I just would like to learn and I would like people to learn so that they can have Better interactions with and for animals.
Yeah. So first of all, I think that actually we often do walk up to stranger dogs that we never met before. We're like, hi, can I pet him? And then we start patting on top of the animal's head.
Guilty.
So I think that we do do that. And then this whole discussion about dominance is really interesting because as an ethologist, how we define dominance is completely different from how most people define it. And I actually, I looked into the encyclopedia to see how is dominance defined there. And I find that there's like two lines of that definition.
So one is the ethological definition of dominance and one is the sociological definition of dominance. And I think that what we're doing often is that we're misusing, we're using the sociological definition differently. on animals in a way that's, I think, unfortunate. Because the ethological definition is about priority of access to resources. Here's a resource.
Here's like five individuals coming up to it. There's just one there. The dominant individual will have priority of access to that resource. The others simply have to wait or look elsewhere. And this reduces the risk of sort of confrontation and aggression and all the costs associated with that. So it's just it's normal that animals who hang out together, who are like in a stable social group,
will organize or have some sort of dominance hierarchy within them that allows this to take place, to reduce the risk of aggression. It tends to become exacerbated in captivity compared to in wild contexts because then the animals can disperse and there's a resource over there that they can go and get instead.
But when we house them and we're offering, specifically we're offering like here's, you have two cats or three cats and here's the food. You're putting the animals in conflict because cats are solitary hunters. So they actually do, if you have several cats, you should feed them in sort of separate locations to reduce that sort of heightened arousal that goes with that type of feeding.
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Chapter 6: How do animals communicate their emotions?
Yeah. Interesting. So can we interpret dog wags of different types? Is there a way to do that?
So one very interesting thing is that the dog wagging with the predominant left wag.
Left for the dog?
Left for the dog. So he's wagging on the left-hand side of his body. Tends to be associated with negative emotional states. And on the right tends to be associated with positive emotional states. And the same cats tend to look at the world from the left when in a negative emotional state and from the right when in a positive emotional state.
So looking from the left, meaning the left eye slightly forward, the head tilted.
So taking in that information with this eye.
Some people are just listening. They're not watching, so they can't see this. So what Carolina is describing is if the head is turned slightly to the side, so the left eye is forward.
So they're looking at the stimulus with their left eye if that stimulus is fear-inducing.
And the opposite to the right hand side if it's more attractive to them. Yeah. So this is lateralized. Interesting. And then the tail wag, you said a dog wagging on the left hand side. More negative right-hand side and more positive. What about full sweeps?
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Chapter 7: What is the role of consent in pet interactions?
Because we associate it with our dog being in a particular circumstance or behaving in a certain way.
So studies have shown that we humans are actually, we learn to read dogs by exposure, even passive exposure, just living in an environment. And apparently, if we live in a culture where dogs live close with humans, we get better in reading dogs than in cultures where dogs don't interact that much with humans. So there's that. And there's also the issue that we are typically better at reading dogs
gross body language than we are at reading facial expressions apparently one of the reasons being that dogs move different facial muscles when they make emotional facial expressions they move different muscles than what humans do what can you tell us about the facial expressions of dogs
Well, there's been some studies in the last couple of years that have looked at which muscles are moving when, in which contexts. So they'll expose the dog to different types of stimuli and they'll film the dog and look at what muscles are twitching, where is the face moving in response to these stimuli.
So those types of studies have found that, you know, when a dog is exposed to, let's say, thunder or firework sounds, they will show a certain facial configuration. When their owner returns home after not being seen for several hours, they will show a different facial configuration and so on. It seems that they do show facial expressions.
It's just that some of those facial expressions are – it's not the same muscles that we show in the corresponding emotional state. So that would, I think, bias us to misreading dogs' facial expressions from that perspective. But then again, if we live with dogs, we start – we won't observe just the facial expression. We will observe the entire dog.
And we're often better off reading their body language than we are reading their facial expression. Even though I think that studies also show that the face is where we look first.
Which behaviors in dogs are maintained from interactions with other dogs? when they interact with humans. For instance, if one is going to take a dog out on a walk and it's familiar with the sound of the leash coming off the the hook or something like that. It's not uncommon for a dog to go into that long, full front leg stretch that people call down dog in yoga.
And some people will say that's a kind of remnant of the puppy play kind of stance. Again, people say this stuff. People are often self-appointed dog experts. This is kind of interesting. And I've learned this from researching online that the various camps of quote unquote dog experts disagree vehemently with each other. I mean, they write to me saying, you know, they're evil.
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Chapter 8: How does understanding animal behavior improve our relationships?
Then they often lose interest if it's not moving anymore. Obviously, if your cat or that cat killed the mice, that cat had progressed to the actual killing bite. Many cats don't do that. They only have the grab bite, so they'll just let the... The little rodent go to run off.
I've seen that. Well, they'll play with them, right?
Yeah. So they'll let it go. And if the mouse is still, they can actually sort of escape attention because the animal, the cat might grow bored and walk away. But the moment they start moving again, then they're sort of restarting that whole predatory sequence again. But back to your question about how to interact with cats or how to read them.
So that would be the third thing that I'm looking at is how do the animal species in front of me, how do they respond to perceived threat? And I'm saying perceived threat here because sometimes we are well-intended. We're like, hi, and we want to... We want to hug them because we're primates. And they really don't like that. So they will respond to us as if we were a predator.
And I think that, again, comes down very much to the types of interaction, social interactions, the type of learning that the...
the animal has had when they're really young so for instance there's a study showing that if you handle young kittens between the ages of like two and eight weeks for at least an hour a day and and when i say handle i just mean that sort of interact with them and and play and have them sort of on your lap and so on they will become very social as adults so they will be the type of cat that will jump up into your lap and fall asleep purring
If you interact with that young kitten less than like 15 minutes a day, they won't be fearful of humans, but they'll be more like walking up to you and saying hi and then walking away.
The aloof cat.
The aloof cat. Yeah. So I think the early life experiences can really shape the type of temperament, if you will, or how sort of vigorously animals respond to changes in the environment.
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