Huberman Lab
Charting the Architecture of the Universe & Human Life | Dr. Brian Keating
Mon, 20 Jan 2025
In this episode, my guest is Dr. Brian Keating, Ph.D., a cosmologist and professor of physics at the University of California, San Diego. We discuss the origins of the universe and how humans have used light and optics to understand where and how life on Earth emerged. We explore how early humans charted the stars, sun, moon, and other celestial events to measure time and track seasons, as well as how stargazing continues to connect us to a shared ancient experience. Additionally, we examine the scientific process, the practical and ethical challenges of pursuing groundbreaking discoveries, and the emotional toll of striving for recognition in one’s profession. Finally, we discuss whether astrology has any scientific validity and consider the possibility of life beyond Earth. Read the full episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman ROKA: https://roka.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Brian Keating 00:02:07 Cosmology, Origin of Universe 00:05:41 Sponsors: LMNT & BetterHelp 00:08:33 Stars, Planets, Early Humans, Time 00:14:53 Astrology, Ophiuchus Constellation 00:19:58 Pineal Gland, Time-Keeping & Stars, Seasons & Offspring 00:29:19 Humans, Time Perception, Astronomy 00:36:08 Sponsor: AG1 00:37:47 Brain & Prediction; Moonset, Syzygy; Telescope, Galileo 00:46:36 Light Refraction; Telescope, Eyeglasses 00:51:36 Earth Rotation & Sun 00:53:43 Glass, Microscope, Telescopes & Discovery 01:02:53 Science as Safe Space; Jupiter, Galileo, Discovery, Time 01:10:48 Early Humans, Stonehenge, Pyramids, Measurement Standards 01:15:54 Giants of Astronomy 01:20:04 Sponsors: Function & Helix Sleep 01:23:10 Origin of Life, Scientific Method & P-Hacking; Nobel Prize, Big Bang, Inflation 01:30:20 Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation, BICEP 01:37:58 Father & Son Relationship, Science & Rewards 01:44:06 Loss, Mentor 01:49:55 Antarctica, South Pole 01:56:49 Light & Heat Pollution, South Pole 02:01:09 Prize Pursuit, First Discovery; Star Collapse, Micrometeorites, Polarization 02:08:26 Sponsor: ROKA 02:10:08 Moon, Size & Horizon; Visual Acuity; Rainbow or Moon Bigger? 02:15:21 Sunset, Green Flash, Color Opponency 02:23:05 Menstrual & Lunar Cycles; Moon Movement 02:26:36 Northern Hemisphere & Stargazing, Dark Sky Communities, Telescope 02:29:51 Constellations, Asterism; Halley's & Hale-Bopp Comets 02:32:13 Navigation, Columbus 02:36:29 Adaptive Optics, Scintillation, Artificial Stars 02:48:28 Life Outside Earth? 02:57:50 Gut Microbiome; Building Planet 03:05:00 Zero-Cost Support, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Social Media, Protocols Book, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who is Dr. Brian Keating?
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Brian Keating. Dr. Brian Keating is a professor of cosmology at the University of California, San Diego.
Today's discussion is perhaps the most zoomed out discussion that we've ever had on this podcast. What I mean by that is today we talk about the origins of the universe. We talk about the Earth's relationship to the sun and to the other planets. We talk a lot about optics.
Chapter 2: What does cosmology teach us about the universe?
So not just the neuroscience of vision and our ability to see things up close and far away, but to see things very, very far away or very, very close up using telescopes or microscopes respectively. So today's discussion is a far reaching one, literally and figuratively, and one that I know everyone will appreciate because it really will teach you how the scientific process is carried out.
It will also help you understand that science is indeed a human endeavor. and that much of what we understand about ourselves and about the world around us, and indeed the entire universe, is filtered through that humanness. But I wanna be very clear that today's discussion is not abstract.
You're going to learn a lot of concrete facts about the universe, about humanity, and about the process of discovery. In fact, much of what we talk about today is about the process of humans discovering things about themselves and about the world.
Dr. Keating has an incredible perspective and approach to science, having built, for instance, giant telescopes down at the South Pole and having taken on many other truly ambitious builds in service to this thing we call discovery. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this podcast episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Brian Keating. Dr. Brian Keating. Welcome.
Dr. Andrew Huberman.
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Chapter 3: How did early humans understand time through astronomy?
It's great to meet you in person finally. I thought you were a legend. I exist in real life and you do as well. And I'm delighted that we're going to talk today because I have a longstanding adoration. There's no other appropriate word for eyes, vision, optics, the stars, the moon, the sun. I mean... animals, humans?
What's more interesting than how we got here and how we see things and what we see and why?
That's right.
You're a physicist. You're a cosmologist, not a cosmetologist.
That's right. I do do hair and makeup if you're interested.
Please orient us in the galaxy.
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Chapter 4: Does astrology hold any scientific validity?
So I get to study, you know, the entire universe basically. And it's not really such a stretch that cosmetology and cosmology share this prefix because... The prefix cosmos is what relates those two words together that seem to be completely, you know, unrelated to each other, right? But it turns out the word cosmos in Greek, the etymology of it, is beautiful or appearance.
So we have a beautiful appearance. You know, we look a certain way. We're attracted to certain things. But it kind of reflects the fact that the night sky is also beautiful, attractive, and evokes something viscerally in us. We humans are born beautiful. with two refracting telescopes in our skulls, embedded in our skulls. And as you point out, the retina is outside the cranial vault.
I'll never forget you saying that. That means we have astronomical detection tools built into us. We don't have tools to detect the Higgs boson built into us or to look at a microscopic virus or something like that. So astronomy is not only the oldest of all sciences, it's the most visceral one. So it connects us.
And of the sciences, of that branch of science, of astronomical sciences, cosmology is really the most overarching. It really includes everything, all physical processes that were involved in the formation of matter, of energy, maybe of time itself. And it speaks to a universal urge, I think, to know what came before us.
Like I always ask people, I'll ask you, I know what the answer is probably, but what's your favorite day on the calendar?
Favorite day on the calendar?
Yeah.
I love New Year's Day.
New Year's Day, exactly. What is that? It's a beginning. It's a new—some people say their birthday, their kid's birthday, if they're smart, their anniversary, right? You don't want to get too out of control with the misses. What are those? Those are beginnings. What's the only event that no entity could even bear witness to? The origin of the universe.
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Chapter 5: What is the significance of the cosmic microwave background radiation?
I think that speaks to something primal in human beings that are curious at least. We want to uncover the secrets of what existed, what came before us. And we don't have any way of seeing that currently. So we have to use the fossils that have made their way throughout all of cosmic time to understand what that was like at the very beginning of time. And perhaps...
maybe about the universe as it existed before time itself began. So to me, it's incredibly fascinating. It encompasses all of science in some sense. It even can include life on other planets, consciousness, the formation of the brain. And to me, I'm always interested in the biggest questions. And the biggest topics that evoke curiosity in me is how did it all get here?
And so that's what cosmology allows us to do, apply the strict exacting laws of physics to a specific domain, which is the origin of everything in the universe. That's what makes it so fascinating.
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Chapter 6: How do our origins connect to the search for life beyond Earth?
Before we get to the origins of the universe and the organization of the planets relative to the sun and their spins, et cetera, you said something that at least to me feels intuitively so true, and I think it's very likely to be true for everybody, which is that there's something about looking up into space, especially at night when we see the stars and hopefully see the stars.
We'll talk about light pollution a little bit later. When we see the stars that Yes, we know these things are far away. Yes, we know that they occupy a certain position in space. They have a diameter, et cetera. We might not know what that is just by looking at them. You probably do. But they also change our perception of time.
And if I were to say one thing about the human brain especially is that, sure, it's got all these autonomic functions. It regulates heart rate, digestion, et cetera, sleep-wake cycles, et cetera. It can remember, it can think, it can have states like rage or anger or happiness or delight.
But what's remarkable about the human brain is that it can think into the past, it can be quote-unquote present, and it can project into the future. And I'm sure other animals can do that, but we do this exquisitely well and we make plans on the basis of this ability to contract or expand our notion of time.
As a non-biologist, but somebody who I think appreciates and understands biology, why do you think it is that when we look up into the sky, even though most people might not realize that those stars probably aren't there and occupying the position that we think they are, some of them probably are, some of them aren't, they existed a long time ago, but without knowing that, why do you think that looking up at the stars gives us the sense of an expansion of time, as opposed to just the expansion of space?
Well, first of all, we have to take ourselves back. deep prehistory. We know that ancients were looking at the constellations because they were seemingly either in control of or correlated with or perhaps causative of the seasons. And that was of divine importance, supreme importance for them, right? Their whole existence in early agrarian societies, hunting societies, gathering societies.
So they had to know about time. So time, the essence of time and that On large scale for seasons, for holidays, for festivals, for propitiation of deities and so forth, they had to keep track of it. And that's why in the caves in Lascaux that date back to the 40,000 BCE, they depict constellations. Orion, the hunter, Taurus, the bull, all these different constellations, they depict them there.
Now, partially that was because Netflix didn't exist back then, right? There was no TikTok. And so there wasn't much to do at night. And in fact, the more you were out at night, you probably increased your opportunity to be consumed by some predator, right? So you were more focused on being stationary, observing.
And as I said, we can do astronomy uniquely so amongst all the sciences with just the equipment we're born with. you know, measurements with our eyes with respect to landmarks to calculate patterns. And humans are exceptionally good at recognizing patterns, sometimes too good.
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Chapter 7: What emotional challenges do scientists face in their careers?
It means something that moves or wanders. So when you name something, it means it's pretty different from the other things in which are not associated with that characteristic. So the planets, there were only five that they could see at that time up to Saturn. And they actually would associate those not only with astronomical events but events down on Earth. That's what connected the Earth.
So we have legacy of that in our calendar today. So Sunday, named after the sun. Monday, moon. Tuesday, and you go to the Latin languages. I think it's Mercury, which is Mercury Day. Venus Day, so you go to the Romance languages. And then the only one that's not a Latin name is, of course, for Thor, the god Thor, Thursday. And then it comes back Saturn Day, Saturday.
So they were all used as a clock. And people don't really grasp this. I mean, we have an Apple Watch. We have whatever. We didn't have a clock that was functional that would work on all different time zones and all different conditions on the pitching deck of a ship until the 1700s, basically. It was a huge problem.
And so measuring time became crucial for commerce, for human culture and civilization to arise, for education, and obviously for planting, harvesting, and so forth. So there was an obvious connection between the two. They believed, actually, that they were causative.
That actually the position of the planet Jupiter determined something on the day of your birth and the sun's relative position with respect to it determines something about your future and your prospects in life and so forth. So when I'm not confused for a cosmetologist because of my lovely hair and makeup, I'm usually asked, oh, you're an astronomer. I'm a Virgo. So what's going to happen to me?
like, I used to be like, oh, okay, that's an astrologer, I'm not an astrologer. But now I just, I kind of lean into it. I'm like, ooh, you're gonna get a letter from the IRS next week, and that lump on your ass, that's... You mean you're playing games with them? Yeah.
So you don't believe in astrology?
There's no evidence for astrology. In fact, there's many, many random controlled trials, double-boned studies that show not only is it... It's almost counter to the evidence. Like, And they say that a monkey can throw a dart at a stock chart and get – do better than most hedge fund managers or something like that. Actually, astrologers are even worse. Like I don't even know.
A protozoa can throw a dart. It's almost anti-correlated with what reality is. So no, there's certainly no validity to that. And I had a provocative tweet, whatever, post recently. And it was about – there's actually – we believe there are 12 zodiac signs. And that dates back to the Persians and the Babylonians and how they divided up them.
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Chapter 8: How does the scientific method apply to groundbreaking discoveries?
So we still use those. There's a problem though. The zodiac that you're, do you know what this is? Do you know what determines your zodiac sign?
No.
Okay. So it's determined by the position of the sun. What constellation was the sun in on the day you were born? September 26th. So that means that the sun was in the constellation Virgo. Oh, no. You were a Libra? Libra. Libra.
Okay.
So you do know what you are, but you don't know why you are. So Libra means it's a constellation. There's 88 constellations. that are accepted by astronomers. And one of them is Libra. And the path that the sun and the moon and all the planets travel in is called the zodiac.
It's confined to a plane because the same proto-solar system disk from which we formed out of, all the planets came out of a nebular cloud, a cloud of gas, dust, rocks, and so forth that came from a pre-existing star that exploded, creating what's called a supernova. The supernova provided the materials to make not only the Earth, but the entire solar system, including the sun.
That happened about 5 billion years ago. And 4 billion years ago, the Earth formed out of that cloud. The spin of that disk, all things have a spin associated with them, like a figure skater. She's spinning around on her axis or whatever. She can have her arms out. Brings them in, she spins faster. That's called conservation of angular momentum. Spin is a type of angular momentum.
The whole disc is spinning in a plane. It's like this desk, this table that we're sitting at. If you're listening, you imagine a flat table. It's spinning. A circular disc is spinning with a certain direction. All the objects are moving in that same direction due to conservation of this term called angular momentum. The sun apparently moves in that position.
Obviously, we're rotating around the sun, but it looks like the sun's coming around us. The moon is, Jupiter. So on the day you were born, there's a constellation behind the sun from our perspective that was Libra on September 26. And that was the day that you were born. That determines the fact that you're a Libra. But there's a problem.
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