Stan, Clarence, Barry, and the Health Chatter team discuss the impacts labels, stereotypes, and identities can have on health.Join the conversation at healthchatterpodcast.comBrought to you in support of Hue-MAN, who is Creating Healthy Communities through Innovative Partnerships.More about their work can be found at http://huemanpartnership.org/
Hello, everybody. Welcome to Health Chatter. Today's show is on stereotypes and labeling and how health is affected by it. Should be an interesting show. It's with our gang, the Health Chatter gang. Everybody's going to chime in as best they can with some stories or ideas about this subject. It certainly is an interesting one.
We have a great crew, Maddie Levine-Wolfe, Aaron Collins, Deandra Howard, do great background research for us on all of these shows, as does Sharon and Nygaard, who also does our marketing. We have Matthew Campbell, who's our person behind the scenes, who does all our technical work, getting these shows out to you, the listening audience with great music attached. So thank you to you as well.
We have Barry Baines, who's our medical advisor. on our show today and also provides insights from a medical perspective. And then, of course, there's Clarence Jones, my great colleague who helps me with these shows. We co-host these shows together with the help of Human Partnership, who is a great community health organization. highly recommend our listening audience check them out.
It's an interesting perspective that they take addressing health from a community perspective. You can check them out at humanpartnership.org and check us out at healthchatterpodcast.com. You can see all our research. You can provide a review, insights, questions, et cetera, on our website. So feel free to visit it. So today, Show on stereotypes and labeling. This is interesting.
I volunteer at a local hospital in the Twin Cities here. And from time to time, I'll see patients that frankly describe themselves particular ways. And it dawned on me, does that affect how health is delivered? And frankly, the question kind of bothered me. And then it came, I called it labeling at that point.
And then when we were discussing the whole concept, I think it was Barry, I think you brought up the idea of maybe it's how we create stereotypes. And so I think we kind of put these both together. Aaron did our background, research on this. And so thank you, Erin. And she provided an interesting little story. And she recommended that I read it. And I did read it.
And I want to share it with you, the listening audience. And it was from a LinkedIn. And this person said, I attended a wedding a while back of a beautiful young couple. It would have and could have been a beautiful wedding, but I'm afraid the pastor conducting the wedding ceremony spoiled it for me and for several guests.
You see, he carried on and on about wearing makeup, having a drink, or having tattoos are all sins. I wear makeup, I have tattoos, and naturally being At a wedding, we toasted the bride and groom with champagne. The hell we go. This got me thinking about stereotypes and labels we give people. How our prejudices can prevent us from getting to know and understand another person.
How we allow society to dictate what is right, good, and normal. Interesting perspective on that. Matthew, I know you have a story that you said you'd be willing to share with our listening audience and our podcast today too.
Yeah, of course. I think when we start talking about labels, we can self-identify those or people can impose those. And each come with their own set of connotations. And we all bring our own set of ideas and stereotypes to those. And so... several years back now when I was first looking for healthcare, I was freshly 18. I was trying to do the right thing, go see a physician.
I was looking, I was interested in getting on PrEP, which I'm sure most people in the public health arena are aware of. And so I went to my physician, this is in South Carolina. It was my hometown. And I was immediately ostracized almost for even asking about it. My physician didn't really know what it was. They had never really prescribed it.
And then all of a sudden I was labeled as less than other, and I had a behavioral problem that needed to be fixed rather than providing me with the healthcare that I was looking for. And so I think those labels and how people perceive labels can really shape the healthcare that is then provided. And I like to think that physicians are above casting stones or stigma or all of those things.
But I think too often that's not quite the case or it's completely dependent on geographic region or like political ideology or religion that is just as impactful on the way people approach their work as maybe kind of like more training that we know of in public health. And so I want to compare that with an example here.
I moved to Minnesota and here in Minneapolis, I got connected with several physicians, a physician group that specializes in LGBTQ plus health. And all of a sudden the label of being gay or LGBTQ plus and being a part of the community was no longer detrimental to my healthcare, but rather had quite the opposite effect. It was prioritized. It was, here's what,
know maybe you should be doing here's recommendations based on what we know about the community and things of that nature and it was really had quite the opposite effect so i just wanted to compare those two experiences while can be vastly different based on who is interpreting the label that we may be self-imposed but yeah thanks for sharing that um
You know, I think what I'd like to do is kind of do a little bit of a round robin here and maybe some insights that each one of us has experienced. So let's start out with Barry. Barry, do you have any thoughts on this from, you know, you obviously were a practicing physician and so Just in general, your thoughts about stereotyping and labeling.
Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this. I'll try and keep them under control. So just, you know, give me the, okay, that's, you know, that's good. So really wearing the medical hat, at a very high level, labeling and stereotyping, I would say that stereotyping is a subset of of labeling. And like most things, as in our research pointed out, it can be a double-edged sword.
There are things that can make it very helpful and things that make it not. And actually, Matthew, I think your story is the perfect example of the double-edged sword, not to say geographically that because you're in South Carolina, it was not so good. And then in Minneapolis, it was actually very helpful.
So I'd like to just break that down because this is something that goes back from a medical history perspective centuries. And at the very basis, this is labeling or stereotyping, depending where you go, men and women had always in medicine up to, actually it still happens, so I'm not going to say up until recently, are treated differently within the medical care system.
And all you have to do is look at a lot of the research that's done. Now, things have been changing, so there is a bit of self-correcting with mistakes, but almost all research has been done, you know, on men. And biologically, men and women are different. And so these broad generalizations of treatment go across the whole population when that's not the case.
And then when we had our pre-meeting to just talk about this topic a bit, some of us brought up this very idea that in research, labeling can be very helpful. Because you can identify groups that have specific health care needs depending on, you know, quote, their profile might be. So there is a positive for that.
But where I see this thing coming down as being, you know, more on the more negative side for stereotyping is that you make assumptions and you almost de-individualize a person by doing that. I remember reading articles when I was in medical school and in residency. I don't have the citations now, but, you know, you could find it where it looked to group ethnic groups by what they need medically.
So that one group, you know, literally one group, because they're educated, if you're treating them, you need to explain everything to them. so that they can make choices. And then if you're part of this other ethnic group, you don't really have to explain stuff, you just tell them what, you know, what you're going to do. And what it, you know, clearly, people are individuals.
And unless you decide to delve in to the individual goals of a person, what they know, what they don't know, what they'd want to know, If you don't have that approach that every patient you see is an individual, you're going to wind up going down a path that's totally inappropriate.
And as a result of that, when you go down those inappropriate paths, you're not going to be able to deliver individualized medical care. And necessarily, you know, how do you deliver good medical care if you don't you know, kind of wash away this lumping piece that we tend to do to make things more simple and more efficient.
So I, you know, and obviously that idea of ethnicity, maybe as a larger group, there might be some truths to it, but every individual in that group, it does not, they don't have the playbook for how they're supposed to be because they're part of an ethnic group. What does that even mean?
So, Barry, I got to ask you something, and I'm sure you can reflect on this. When you took the, you know, the Hippocratic Oath, okay, and, you know, what went through your mind? It's just like, I don't care. It doesn't go through your mind as a new physician. It doesn't matter who you are. As far as I'm concerned, You are a human being.
And if you are in the need of care, I'm a physician here to assist. Does that go through your mind? Or do you bring some of your own prejudices, your own ideas into it?
The answer is, yeah. I mean, the thing is, you know, yes, because number one, humans are not infallible. Okay. Quite the opposite. And you cannot take a person out of their environment and And the biases that all of us have.
And I think actually one, you know, a case in point was maybe it does, you know, depending where you go, the biases in a community in South Carolina are likely to be different than the biases in a community in Minneapolis. Yeah. And the people that are in that carry those biases with them. Oftentimes we tend to say, oh, I'm not, you know, I'm not that way.
But at a subconscious level, I think people treat people differently based on the biases that they have. And that carries over whether you're a physician, whether you're in law enforcement, whether you're a judge in court. And I mean, cases of this built-in bias in our society and the negative impacts it has, you know, we'll never run out of information that, that supports that.
Um, and one of the first steps has to be, if you can't be aware that this is how you're approaching things, how can you change if you don't know where you, where you're starting from?
That's a great point. You know, Clarence, you know, I know Clarence, um, We've talked about this from time to time with the work that we've done together in the Black community. And we have talked a lot about how that population is at risk for a lot of different things health-wise.
And I just wonder whether or not the labeling or the stereotype is how it's affecting that population or stories that you've come across.
Well, one of the things I want to share with you is that we are, as you know, we're part of a human. And there's a reason for that, because regardless of our identity,
ethnicity or where we come from we are we are all still human and i will all have you but one of the things that i think that's so important really is that we really especially in america we really can't help uh having these biases because we're inundated by them all the time the media Stereotypes. Those are the kinds of things that we are often we're exposed to.
And so, you know, when I deal with people and, you know, people come in and they say, well, I love everybody. I'm saying, you know, you need to check that out because I think that we all struggle. We all struggle.
And so I think the, you know, as Mary said, we have to identify those kinds of things and be okay with saying that we struggle with them without feeling like we have to, uh, you know, lose our soul in the process.
But one of the things, again, um, you know, as a community member, I'm often, uh, I often am challenged by this whole conversation that, that we have, uh, about this topic because, you know, people like to, um,
deny or people like to pretend and I think that that's so unhealthy not only for yourself but also for the people that you're dealing with and so I think this whole idea about what we're talking about is going to be important you know in terms of this conversation so that's that's my initial conversation yeah you know um I can relate a um a quick story I remember back in the in the um in the 80s when um
HIV came to the forefront. And actually I was working very, very closely with Mike Osterholm at the time, and we were training physicians on the whole issue. And it really came to the forefront for me, some of the homosexual nuances, I guess it'd be the best way to put this, insights, uncomfortableness came to the forefront back then. And I'm saying, whoa, wait a minute.
And I remember thinking that to a certain extent, the physicians themselves were concerned about their own health. and what was going on at the time. And it really came to the forefront for me, this idea of labels and stereotypes linked at that time with a very, very hard, health issue that we all had to face.
Going historically back, if you go back to the ancient Chinese, they only gave their health care to those that were in the higher castes So there was an identification that was going on there. There were labels that were going on back then that if you were in the higher caste, you were afforded healthcare. That changed ironically with the ancient Hebrews that they thought that
health was basically for all. And that's where truly health for all and also a public health stance came into effect by virtue of many things that were going on in the environment at the time. The other thing that's bothersome to me is that a lot of the things that we're dealing with health-wise have an unnecessary, in my mind, sexual connection to them.
And I think that for many providers of care, that might, it might, I don't know, it might give a negative component to our delivery of care and public health initiatives. I think what has helped is people are out front, almost really out front in saying, yes, I am lesbian. Yes, I am gay or bisexual or trans or queer.
they're upfront and willing to state it upfront and say, geez, you know, it's okay. And you guys, you guys, everybody has to get used to the idea that we are part of humankind too. And so I think that that's a statement that's being made by these communities, whereby if I have to be labeled, so be it. And I'm going to be upfront with it.
So those are some things that have been popping in my head all these years. Any other thoughts from Sheridan? I know you always have some great insights.
I think that was a great time to bring me in. So I am engaged. I have been engaged for a long time to a man. However, I identify as bisexual. And so I think I am an Amazing example of how I present as somebody that is hetero or that passes as straight. And people are quick to label me as straight.
But really, my lived experience and who I am and where my attractions fall, I am bisexual and I have my whole life. So this is something that a lot of people struggle with in my life because I have a wonderful, loving fiance that is a man. And so I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding how that can mean that I am still bisexual.
But I think it opens the door for conversations with a lot of people. And by the end of the conversation, they're like, yeah, I do think that you're bisexual. I do think that you're gay. So I think it's just... I think I'm a good example of don't judge a book by its cover. Don't label a book by its cover. And I do think that there are stereotypes for straight people that I fall under.
And I fall under stereotypes for bisexual people. I have a nose ring. That's a common one that people make a joke about. And even a common... A common stereotype about bisexual women is that they are dating or engaged or married to a straight man. So I fall under that stereotype, too. But that doesn't diminish my experience by any means. Yeah, I think that was a great time to call me in, Stan.
Yeah, yeah. Deandra, any insights from your life?
Yeah, so I don't think I've had a lot of health experiences dealing with this. But I guess I would say just like being a Black woman in general, I'm very hyper aware of certain stereotypes or certain health conditions or concerns that will come up regarding my health just due to being a Black woman. So I think...
how i kind of like and having just my father's a nurse i have a lot of people in my life who are in health care and just being like aware of those things it i think it helps me be really open with those kind of conversations when they come up um just you know regarding like my health and everything
I think it also helps when I'm talking to family members, if they're not really, they don't really have a healthcare background. They don't really know if, you know, they will ask questions and things. I think it helps me in the sense of just like being able to kind of reassure them of things.
And I think sometimes when you don't have that kind of background and maybe a physician or a nurse is coming to you and saying like, oh, you know, like, telling you you might have like things that to look out for, like that are related to Black people, specifically like high blood pressure, cholesterol, things like that.
I think when you don't have that background, sometimes you can feel a little attacked or singled out. But when you do, and I know that these are just things that are like very prominent in our community, it's helpful to, you know, let them know like, hey, they're just kind of this is kind of what they're taught.
This is something that they're asking all of us, you know, this is not something they're singling you out on. So I think sometimes like those labels, if you're not really aware of like healthcare or just certain things that are prominent within our community, it can kind of feel like you're being singled out.
So it's really helpful to have people with a voice to kind of just, you know, reassure you that, you know, there are like, I think a lot of people are afraid of like, you know, doctors and, and things like that.
Um, or they feel like maybe they're not being told what they think they're, um, they should, they want to hear and think. So I think it's, that's really important.
Yeah. You know, um, thank you, uh, Sharon and Deandra for those comments. Um, Matthew, you bring up a really interesting concept in our chat. He says here, I think labels can sometimes create community when it can't be found otherwise. You want to comment on that? I think it's a great point.
Yeah, I just think sometimes a pro of labels is you can find like-minded folks. You can share identities. You can share perspectives. things that you know about each other, but also you can, you know, share the hardships that you face because of those labels or identities.
And so oftentimes when we think of like labels, especially in the LGBTQ plus community, you know, I think of like people who have been, you know, kicked out of their families or they can't find that support in that way. It's, you can rely on your label. You can rely on your community without, other folks that have that same label to support and uplift. And I think that can be really empowering.
And I, yeah, so I think you can find a community if you don't, if you can't always find it elsewhere. And so I think those are kind of one of the more of the pro sides of labels, but on the converse, what that does is it creates that label stereotype in a sense. It's like, ah, well, look at those folks. They all dress the same. They all look the same. They all talk the same.
They all act the same, et cetera. And then that is then negatively used harmfully. So, I mean, I'm not sure that this situation is isolated just to healthcare. I think this speaks to like a larger systemic problem that we have in society of the idea of other. Someone always has to be the other. And labels are a way to identify the other, I think. Yeah, go ahead, Clarence.
Anybody that knows me knows I'm a very conservative person, right? You know me. But one of the things that I have learned in this life is that I am more concerned about your character and how you interact with me and how you treat me. And I'm going to treat you as a human being. That's one of the reasons why, again, I go back to the whole idea around humanity.
But I think that part of what I like about this conversation is that we can have this conversation and still treat each other with respect. And many times when we have these kinds of conversations, we like to bunch up, you know, and say, well, this is our side, that's your side. And so I just want to tell the group that I appreciate you for that and that I'm enjoying this conversation.
And I think that it's important to identify yourself and some of your values and what you believe in. And people have to be willing as another human being to respect that and to be able to walk away and still be able to communicate with each other.
You know, thanks, Clarence. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. You know, I remember fondly when I first met Clarence. It's just like, you know, we've been kindred souls, brothers, colleagues, friends, you name it, since then. And, you know, if I was blind, you know, I'd still...
think of of Clarence in in such great ways and um and frankly the same goes through with our whole health chatter team here I mean it's just like you know I can't tell you um you know who you are how you identify yourselves or or for that matter you know how you go about living life Frankly, I appreciate because it's made me as a person stronger and more insightful.
And I hope that this is what this topic is getting towards.
Let me say this again. This is what makes this group so powerful is the fact that we respect each other. Regardless of where we're at on the scale, whatever the spectrum is. We've come to a point where we can intersect, we can talk about things, and we're working to make our communities healthier.
And part of a healthy community is being able to talk openly and freely about things, whether we agree or not. about things and still walk away realizing that we're dealing as human beings with each other.
And so I just want to say this again is that I love this kind of conversation because it's freeing, it's freeing, and it's an awareness and it's opening us up to have even more and deeper conversations.
You know, and in many ways, you know, hopefully our Health Chatter team can help set an example for others. I mean, we come from so many different backgrounds, just all of us here. And hopefully that's a wake up for a lot of people. You know, all of you, I want to bring this up. I have noticed, you know, in my career, you know, certainly with the email, you know, how people sign off.
And it's important that they, you know, for some people, it's important that they sign off that, you know, he, she, they, it, lesbian, gay, you know, it's an identifier in your actual email. Thoughts about that? I mean, is it, go ahead, Matthew, take it away.
Yeah, I think pronouns, everyone has pronouns. And I don't think that is, something to be controversial, even though sometimes it can be, everyone wants to be identified in some way, shape or form. And I think the email thing is simply a way of saying, Hey, these are my pronouns, regardless of what my name is, this is how I would like to be addressed.
And I just think it's common courtesy now just to go ahead and include them just for the simple fact of it. One doesn't create an other for folks who may not feel comfortable sharing their pronouns or, uh, their pronouns, maybe, uh,
don't quite align with their appearance in a way that might traditionally, one might traditionally think, which isn't a problem, but just to say that like, it's something so simple that we all can do just to create a more inclusive environment. And I think that's like how I approach like a lot of my work. It's not about like necessarily what, I'm not here to debate someone else's existence.
I'm here to create an inclusive environment for other folks. And so if I can do something as simple as like including my pronouns, to let other folks know how I'd like to be identified, but also say, Hey, this is a welcoming space to also share your pronouns. Then go for it. I'm just go for it.
Right, right, right. So, you know, one thing I've also noticed is that, um, people identify not just by one thing like sexual orientation or pronouns or whatever, but also by religion. Okay. I'm Jewish. Okay. I'm Catholic, I'm Protestant, I'm whatever. How do you think those labels might affect a person's health, how people perceive them, how they look at them, et cetera? Any thoughts on that?
Anybody?
I think people are always trying to figure out a way to identify or else separate themselves from others. And if you're a type of person that wants to feel special, then you'll find ways to make that happen. I personally, in my personal life, try so very hard never to do that, not to do that. I'm not perfect by any means. I just want to know who you really, really are. I tell people that.
I just want to know who you really, really are. Tell me what you really, really think. For me, that's important because what I want to do, especially in the work that I'm doing around health, all of us need this. It's so important to be able to have an honest conversation so that you don't have to guess about stuff. Even with people that are of different
ideas whatever that whatever those differences are i'm still trying to figure out ways to make it happen now that's that might be cool by ish you know whatever but that's just the way i want to live in in that in that kind of way so uh to me again i know who i am and um I know that other people don't believe or think or act like I do, but that's okay. They're still worthy of being respected.
And that for me is the important thing.
Yeah, and I agree with that. Any other thoughts on labeling, stereotyping in other arenas, like religion, for instance? Any thoughts on that?
no okay oh i can go ahead for just go ahead yeah go ahead sure i think it's it's obviously it's religion it's ethnicity it is race and it is age like we think about even you know yeah yeah we like to joke on this podcast a lot we're the young ones you guys are the old ones like it's really easy to but really um uh i have 110
three-year-old participants, they would look at you and they would call you young. So really in the scheme of things where we label ourselves, where we label other people, it is so subjective. And when we think about, um, Like even religion, you don't know in the scheme of things how involved they are in their church or their practice or in their community.
Or I even think about like immigrants a lot where they may have come from a culture where it's completely immersed in their culture and now they're here and it's different. It's different and you may go to the same church here, but it will be with different people and a different culture and things will be practiced differently.
And so I just think in the scheme of things, really like zooming out and looking at the bigger picture, we have no idea where people are or where. where they fall unless they tell us and communicate with us about that. And that's why I think the pronouns in the emails are a great opportunity to just effectively communicate clearly with no ifs, ands, or buts.
This is what this person would like to be labeled as. That's just my two cents on it.
You know, I think, you know, to a certain extent, all this stereotyping labeling, um, is really connected to perspectives. And what's your perspective on this person vis-a-vis yourself? How is it that you compare and contrast with one person or another? How is it that you embrace differences, whether it be cultural,
whether it be sexual, whether it be community, et cetera, how is it that you embrace them? And how is it that those levels of embracement have changed? I think labeling and stereotypes also is connected to good, bad, or indifference, the political arena right now. And to me, that's, to be honest with you, sad. Barry.
I hope my audio is working now. It's back. Yes. Okay. I think, you know, to that point, understanding what groups or labels that people identify with from a medical perspective, the $64 question is asking that person is not, I think, not just putting the onus on the, you know, on the person to bring that up, but as a medical provider,
to understand how their identification with the group, how does that in any way, shape or form, I'm talking about more broadly, how does that impact the healthcare that they see or what their healthcare needs are? And because that way you could say, oh, you know, oh, you're Jewish, but that doesn't really impact what, you know, what kind of healthcare I want, or I'm Muslim,
It doesn't, you know, impact that. Or I'm in the LGBTQ plus community. How does that impact that?
More often than not, you may, it will be very revealing because then they'll make you a better healthcare provider, whether you're a physician, nurse practitioner, nurse, et cetera, by understanding the impacts of that labeling or stereotyping or community that people belong to and their health beliefs. There's an intersection with that. And I go back to that idea of cultural humility.
I think it's much broader than that, is that the healthcare system would be much better served, as will our communities at large, by just bringing that information into the fore. And the fact is we're becoming more and more aware of our differences and how that might impact us, while at the same time to
to quote the famous Clarence Jones, you know, we are all human and we certainly share a lot more in common, but even with that, having that empathy and understanding and a more humble approach to things could help us all, you know, be better and do better.
So that's- I agree with that. Actually, I agree with everything that everybody said today. It's great.
Last thoughts, Matthew. I just kind of want to propose a quick question. We've talked a lot about how impactful and powerful labels can be and how negative they can be in other scenarios. But I think the reality, unfortunately, is kind of like Barry mentioned, we're focusing a lot on people's differences lately. And so I'm questioning like in a world that is so divisive, where do we go from here?
How do we navigate? What do we do? How do we Because sometimes it can often feel challenging to work with other folks or when everyone is so divisive.
You know, it's interesting you bring that up. I have been promoting this. I said, wouldn't it be great if we had a worldwide chill-out day where everybody just sits down, relaxes for a second, and realizes... What Clarence has touted through H-U-E-M-A-N, that we're all in this world for a relatively short period of time. Let's get together and be decent to one another. put decisiveness away.
It doesn't matter. I could disagree with you, but that doesn't mean that you still aren't a good person. You know what I mean? We can't agree on everything. So you bring up a really important point, Matthew.
Let me jump in real quick. While Matthew was talking, I'm in the car, and so the record came on that says Loser. And as he was talking, I was thinking about the fact that if we had a worldwide chill out day, some people would fight against it because they would consider us losers because we're looking and searching for some type of peace.
You know, and for me, for me, one of the things that that I seek in my life is I don't do drama. I don't do drama very well because I don't see drama. And I think that, you know, when you when you get to a point where you can you can you can ask a person to seek seek who they who they really are.
Give them, respect them for whatever, wherever they're at, you know, and can be cordial and civil towards them. That's what I seek for. So when I think about this whole topic of labeling and, you know, and stereotypes, I try to find commonality. You know, you don't have to be my friend, but maybe can we be allies is another thing that I use. And so that would be my last comment.
I just, I really do honestly appreciate every comment that was made here. It was open and we were vulnerable and we had a chance to say what we had to say.
Yeah. And I respect it. And I respect it. I do too. I do too. Maybe behind all of this is a simple smile. if we can all smile and think about how it is that we can put our arms around each other and appreciate each other for what we all bring to the human equation, maybe that's what it's all about in the end. So carry on, everybody carry on with some positivity going forward.
Our next show coming up will be on telehealth, which is also an interesting subject. Certainly post, you know, the COVID craziness that we've all faced, but it certainly has implications for health. So in the meantime, everybody keep health chatting away.