Sam Stein
Appearances
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You're not supposed to admit that you're running for president like that. Isn't the rule that you can't show any ambition whatsoever?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
So Pete's running for president.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We've had three 2028 hot stove items in the past 24 hours. What are the other ones? Rahm. And Bannon. And Bannon. All three reported by Politico. Appropriate on brand. I worked for Politico.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Is he viable? Sure. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I like Pete. I think, you know, ultimately, really, who knows what the world looks like. But, you know, young, technocratic, smart, can talk.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It's more of like a craft cocktail lane. Yeah. I love myself a craft cocktail.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
He's got the Boulevardier crowd.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I think Mona summarized it pretty well. I find myself increasingly disturbed by this story. The facts are Mahmoud Khalil is a green card holder. He's not a citizen, but he has some rights. His wife is a citizen. She's eight months pregnant. What was done to him actually is totally legal. Let's just... I've looked into it. No, no.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Isn't it... No, the Secretary of State has incredible... And this is the problem. The problem is the law. The Secretary of State has incredible discretion to do things like this. And I just want to be clear about that. Even though that is legal, as I read the law, if you are not bothered by the idea that
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
the government will come in to a college campus, detain someone for an association and speech they don't like, and then force deportation proceedings against that person, then frankly, you should not hold yourself up as someone who believes in free speech, because that is a very chilling use of government authority. The other side of it is that
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
If you believe that Mahmoud Khalil is a despicable human being who shouldn't be having the associations he does with the Columbia University Apartheid Divest Movement, if you believe that everything he stands for is abhorrent, Maybe the worst thing to do is what you're doing right now, which is you're turning him into essentially a martyr.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And the Trump administration is acting both grotesquely, in my opinion, and idiotically because they're going to turn this guy into a martyr. And it betrays a sort of insecurity on their part, as I see it. Maybe a malice. A malice and an insecurity. If you can't handle...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
this guy on a college campus and just, like, figure out a way to just argue with him and, like, you know, make him insignificant, if you're threatened by this, then you're not as strong as you portray to be. So that's how I come down on this thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That's it. I mean, if you read that, and again, I've talked to some immigration people on this, it's so vague and it's so open-ended that essentially Marco Rubio just needs to say, I've made a determination. And in this case, there was a lot of, initially it was like, well, did ICE do this? And then they were like, no, no, no, no, no. Marco Rubio did this. And they did that deliberately.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And then on top of that, and I think you pointed this, they gave a quote to the free press, I want to say, where they were like, we didn't determine that he broke any laws.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And everyone's like, holy shit, like what the – and they didn't have to. They didn't have to. And the problem is that's a really dangerous law or lack of laws, I should say.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
is they had these encampments. They were intimidating Jewish students. And the university was not doing a good enough job making sure that those Jewish students didn't feel harassed or threatened. And I understand that. There are multiple ways to effectuate a different outcome than to take someone literally off the campus and then move them across the country to a nice detention center.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And police political action. And I get it. And look, the thing is, He's an easy target, right? Like you and I are probably on a 30 side of a 30-70 issue because here's a guy who's saying things that are essentially sympathetic to the Hamas cause. And I'm not sympathetic to Hamas, obviously. This is a fight I'm sure they chose. But if you believe in free speech, the test of it is not in easy cases.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The test of it is in hard cases. And you have to be willing to say, This guy has abhorrent views. I disagree with them. I find them repulsive. He needs to be disciplined by the school. But he has the right to speech, and he has the right to protest, and I will not impede on that right. And what they've done is the exact opposite.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Are you having a change of heart?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
They've used the instruments of the state to go onto a college campus, the so-called campus culture warriors, or anti-campus cancel culture, and they've gone and done it. And it's crazy to me. I've been heartened, I guess, by a few MAGA figures who've been like, this is too much. like Ann Coulter. Candace Owens? Well, she might have some different motivations. Yeah, that's true.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
She's not that great on the Jews. That's a good point. But, you know, and I think – I'm more interested – I actually don't care about the MAGA figures.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You know, Ben Shapiro made a big deal about getting protested at college campuses when he was invited to do speeches and how his speeches were canceled because the, you know, insecure, whatever you want to call them, students on the school didn't like hearing bad things from him. Yeah. Where's he? It goes both ways, buddy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I would say the only thing I would say is if you believed that he was materially supporting Hamas, for instance, or that he was pushing her, then bring it up in a different venue and file some sort of lawsuit against the guy for supporting terrorism. Yeah. Do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Rand Paul, I believe, is a no. So Republicans need eight Democrats to say yes in order for this to pass.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
No, and they're not asserting that. And that's the issue that people have is that if you have something that you can charge them with, then charge them with it. But they haven't.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Oh, yeah. Accelerationism. It's not good. But it's sort of hilarious to me in a sick, twisted way that they're befuddled that this could possibly happen. The most predictable thing in the world happened, happened. You're doing the tariffs? I didn't expect the tariffs.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You didn't say anything about tariffs. It's so chaotic. Every day is like a different... He's treating it like a reality show, and I know Howard Lutnick's out there, the sort of emcee of the reality show. Tune in next week. But it's not fun or productive or really particularly good for the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Let's just assume that they're going to treat cloture as the... And I'll be over, right? So they need eight Democrats. And it is a tough one. I feel like I go back and forth on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You've made this point, and I think it's the right one, which is if the tariffs were so fucking good... Do them. Just let them go. Let it rip. Why do we keep pulling back? Just let it rip.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I can't keep track of them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Which ones have we pulled? Are we tariffing people right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yesterday I was thinking about how if the goal here for Elon and Trump is to quite literally shave the government down to its studs and fire a bunch of people and reduce the size of the federal bureaucracy as much as possible, then this would help them do it, right? Like you would basically furlough all the non-essential employees. Russ Fott would be in charge of figuring out who's essential.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Let it rip. Scott Besson didn't stop all this? No.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I'm amazed at how ineffectual.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah, they're going to Fort Knox to check the gold.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I forget it every time, but it's there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah, the Puma thing was really a telling thing. And just so people understand, Puma, the shoewear, athletic wear company, cutting 500 jobs globally. And one of the decks that we saw for the reasons why had to do with what they called Hispanic hibernation. Just basically Hispanics completely freaked out about the deportations and literally not going out and walking around and shopping.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And that was what they said.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah, that goes without saying. The tip line's been really incredible. And for those who've written in, thank you. You've helped us tell some really good stories. Look, I think the 30,000 foot takeaway from the tip line is this. There's been an incredible trauma inflicted upon people. And...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Every day we get stories of like really tragic stories, honestly, of people being like, you know, I'm a vet. I've worked for, you know, the Department of Veteran Affairs or DOD or whatever for, you know, two decades. My wife's also a government employee. She's a park ranger or whatever. We both lost our jobs. And like, what am I going to do? What can I do? Like, there's no recourse.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It was just that. Then we get like the ridiculous stuff, which is like, we got a tip the other day. I was like, here's a memo that Pam Bondi just issued. This is a real thing. It was like, it was a memo. It was like from the desk of the attorney general. And people got were like, oh boy, this has got to be serious.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And it was like, you know, following President Trump's bold action, we will be, you know, outlawing Paper straws at the DOJ. I was like, are you fucking serious?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That was one that came in yesterday. It was like, we are working with Doge, and we've created a task force, Justice Doge, but we're calling it Just Doge. And the person who sent me was like, these fucking clowns. It's like, they must spend so much time on this stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I mean, basically, people who either work at NIH or at universities who depend on NIH funding, and it is just, like, the pullback is...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
unreal and and we're gonna this is one of those things where you know it's happening but like five years down the line it's gonna be really apparent because universities have basically stopped hiring big ones because they just don't know if these indirect cost caps are going to come in and then the nih people are basically being forced to wait on whether their research grants are going to be even considered because there's been a communication pause
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And then, you know, if the government were refunded, I'm sure they have some crazy ways of making sure that those furloughed employees don't come back. And if they do that, they don't give them pay. And what kind of outcome is that, right? Is that a good outcome for Democrats? I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
So we get these tips and it's like people are just saying, you know, there's supposed to be a review session for my grant. It just got canceled. Check out this website. And I don't know if I can just subsist on no money for the next three months until they consider it. These are like the best and the brightest in our country trying to do great scientific research.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
They need the federal government because the private sector won't fund this type of stuff. It's long shot success rates, but important to take those shots. And they're just going to have to figure out whether to even leave the field or try to find some other country that might fund them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That's so stupid. Why are we doing that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Now, on the flip side, I just say on the flip side, and I've talked to a few people about this, it's like... Who have you talked to? I can't tell you that. I'll tell you one on the record, but I'll just say this one is anonymous. But I raised this concerns that I just said to a pretty senior Democrat.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Wait, can I just say about Steak and Shake? Yeah. We hired Will Sommer. If people don't know Will, he's great. He's on the pod this week. Yeah, of course. He's on Tuesday's pod. Don't pretend like you. I saw a clip of it. He's got a hilarious Steak and Shake story coming for Friday's Morning Shots. It's so good. I can't give it all away, but it's really good. Subscribe to boyd.com.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You're a ball coach, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I mean, this guy is touching all the bases. I'm excited for this, but what you should have done is you should have just read it to me and said, guess the real Tommy Tuberville.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
This person responds, it's certainly possible and a real concern, but they're going to pull this stuff over and over and over again. Do we continually get run over and hope we can get to 2026 with a House majority? I just fear that we are setting a terrible precedent and the Senate will never stand up to them. It's all fucking terrible. And they are trying to destroy the city I call home.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Okay, most to the least.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah, okay. Let's play the second one. I'm going to rank these. Send to jail is a great line.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We have different curriculums for different people.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I mean, the most Tommy, the most Tommy's obviously sent them all to jail. They can't really top that. The no pain, no gain. That's Auburn Tommy. Yeah, that's real. No pain, no gain is so cliched. Uh, I got to think that's the last. The separate but equal schools. The separate but equal schools. We had it really good back in the 50s when we had our own curriculums. Yeah, that was real tough.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That's real south town right there. This guy. I mean, he's sort of a gem in a way, but not maybe meant for the Senate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Right, exactly. But not enough. We got to treat them all equally. Send them all to jail. I hope that Glenn Greenwald... I think Tommy also probably appreciated the J6 Bardens too. Send those people back from jail.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You haven't watched, Tim? I don't know. Well, this makes up for me not seeing the film all summer. Okay, how many times have you been on it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
First time, I was super nervous.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It's nerve-wracking. And it showed. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That being Washington, D.C. That's a little emotional at the end. I mean, it might seem emotional. And look, I'm obviously a resident, right? But a billion dollars ripped from D.C. budget. It is insane. There's rumors rampant that schools are going to have to take huge, huge cuts. We're talking about $150 million cut in the education budget.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Oh, boy, Bill. I was like working on my jokes, didn't really land. And then the second and third time was good. Actually, one of the times I was on with Bill Kristol. And I think that was the second time. And we came out there and Bill Marr was doing this big dialogue about Dick Cheney and how terrible Dick Cheney was. And then he came to the panel and I was like, you know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That really hurt Bill Crystal's feelings. And we went from there. I don't know if Bill Crystal remembers that. And then the third time there was this weird joke, and I remember this very well. He had some monologue about how a bee ejaculating into a flower, and it was just grotesque. And we just kind of ruminated on that for a while. And I was like, this show is different.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Well, we're going to be talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Are we building things here? You want me to adopt your personality for Bill Maher?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I have my own ways of doing these things.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I was told there's a piece of advice that someone told me, which is if you prep lines for that show, you'll fail.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Correct. You better do better than that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah, and Trump was supposed to make this the golden capital city and all that stuff. And I will say, inside D.C., it feels like we are being subjected to an invading country. It does. And this would gut the city. Now, they probably love that shit. They're probably like, oh, that's great. You get what you deserve. But I can't even fathom doing something in the reverse, right, where Democrats would
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
go in and be like you know what we're really gonna screw over name your random town in mississippi i don't know like it would be insane and people would be like you are heartless and that's totally right and everybody be on their high horse yeah how dare you on all the panels just like looking down on the democrats are targeting these red state americans into like the dc story but that's the that's the calculus democrats senate democrats have right now it's
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
So there is that like- Well, how do you negotiate with a nihilist, right? Like that's the issue. And what are you actually trying to extract? I mean, let's say in theory, they got some sort of promise that Elon Musk wouldn't meddle in some agencies or something like that. do you really think Elon's going to abide by it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
He's already pushing the boundaries of the law off, not overstepping them on multiple fronts. So there's quite literally nothing they can put on paper that would make Democrats totally confident that they've solved the situation. So what are you holding out for?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I'm putting all my money that they do limp objection. Exactly. there's just no universe where i i will say um there's the one thing that is um and i don't think they appreciate it is how palpable the anger will be over this i mean people are really i was uh texting with um howard dean ex dnc chair um he i mean he said like this is the quote uh
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We were talking about shunning the government and what would happen and having to bring people back and how it's possible that they just won't. And he said, that can be negotiated out and Trump will get the blame for all the crap he does. The GOP strategy is just a gun to the head of the American people and we should not follow along with it. I don't plan to support any Democrat who does.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We can primary incumbents too. I mean, there's like, they want to- Oh, yeah. And, like, I think they don't even care. It's not so much... They know the outcomes are shit. Like, they know that it's shit either way. Their point is that if you don't show a fight, you're just going to get rolled time and time again. And that there are very few venues to fight.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
This is, like, literally one of, like, a handful of venues that they're going to get. And if on the first one they go with... What is it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Bend over and take it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That's going to be bad. And you would imagine that that's the kind of formula for, we were talking about this a while back, but like a democratic style.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And I was thinking to myself – Does that make the plane ride go faster or slower?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I think that's actually a worthy thing to – way to operate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Well, first of all, you need at least three more college shirts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
But only one of them is college. You need that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I don't disagree that what you're describing here was popularized in the great 90s movie Speed. Okay. Shoot the hostage. Shoot the hostage. And in this case, and I don't literally mean shoot people.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Okay? People in Canada, I know you're mad at me. In this case, the hostage is federal employees. And you've spent six weeks being like, what are you fucking doing to our government? You're firing all these people. It's horrible. And then you turn around and you're like, sorry, but we've got to go because we need the chaos. That's shooting the hostage.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
But in terms of the politics, I actually think you're right, which is – I mean, the real criticism of Trump right now is that everything is just so chaotic, and that just extends from the government to the economy to world affairs, and this doesn't help matters. But the hostage is pretty pricey. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We are actually between two ferns.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You want to raw dog this thing, basically.