Neil Druckmann
Appearances
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
We did see some people say, oh, Pedro's too popular. HBO will not let them.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
One thing I have to say. This is coming on the heels of the game where you, Troy, played Joel. You had to die in this very similar way. Ashley Johnson played Ellie, and she had to react in this very similar way. And, you know, we talk about, well, how do we feel about making this?
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
I assume, Craig, you share this, but I have a nervousness of like, especially for the really important scenes that you guys did so well, Troy. that they won't live up to it, that somehow we'll fall short in the retelling of the story.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
And I remember when I talked to Mark, I had a Zoom call with him before he was directing this episode, and I'm like, dude, man, you got this giant battle in front of you, and there's freaking bloaters and infected and explosions. Man, just the prep for that must be unnerving. He's like, yeah, yeah, that's all true. But I'll be honest with you, Neil, the thing I'm most nervous for is this death.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
because I watched that part of the game, and it's like, I saw the weight of it, and I'm like, I have to do this justice. And he said, like, it was keeping him up at night. And I got to give everybody their credit. They did it justice.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
Um, yes, offense, because that's the one person you've been avoiding like the plague.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
As of when? Because last night... Yeah, I know what happened last night.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
I remember we talked all about numbers, because season one, we have this opening, and then we jump, and everything's already destroyed. The army's gone. All these things have happened. So you know it could get really bad, but we've never seen it really, really bad. And here, there was an opportunity to say, OK, when you saw one clicker, how dangerous that was in season one.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
When you saw one bloater, how dangerous that was in season one. Now what happens when you multiply that by some crazy number? And that's what they have to try to defend. And to a large degree, they fail because many, many people die.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
It's also worth noting that, you know, you have a lot of theories of how it should play out.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
And often they prove out wrong or like you see first pass of something like, oh man, the bloater feels like the Incredible Hulk, like... That's incorrect. And we will start talking about, okay, what should actually, what would make it feel even more believable? Because the more believable it feels, the more you care about the stakes and the characters.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
And then there's even stuff in the editorial where like, okay, how do we show the stakes of the kids in this town? And stuff was added later. And I even like just love the way just Tommy and Maria look at each other. And again, in the humanity of it all, every life here is important. But for Tommy, one life is more important than the other ones.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
Yes. I mean, you're right, Troy, in that, right, all these people, right, Tommy is putting himself in harm's way for someone he loves. Ellie is putting herself in harm's way for someone she loves. And even Abby is putting herself in harm's way for someone she has loved and lost. Right? It's all a function of love. It just has different outcomes.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
Something about that fence sequence as well, because we had a scene when, you know, Joel is escaping with Sarah in season one that was kind of inspired by that same sequence. We tried it. And now there's like, again, it's kind of like history repeating itself. It's here. But this was one of those sequences that I would pull people into my office at Naughty Dog and be like, check this out.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
And they're like, oh, my God, you guys did it just like the game. Like, they were so excited to see their work again recreated in the TV show.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
This is another one of those moments that I've, I mean, obviously this all the way to the Joel's death. Laura Bailey did such an incredible job in the game as Abby, right? that as good as I know Caitlin in, there's a nervousness that we won't capture that same essence. And again, it's like to see someone deliver on that sequence is just a very gratifying feeling.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
You know, there's certain things that are in the game, or actually, in this particular instance, the way we came across the song is when we made a trailer to reveal the existence of The Last of Us Part II. So I wrote and shot a scene that was never actually in the game of Ellie... In the middle of this, like, room where she's murdered several people, she plays this song on guitar.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
And I was looking for the right song, and I searched for, like, Johnny Cash, and I found this band that did a cover of Johnny Cash, this guy Sean James, and I found one of his original songs, Through the Valley. And there's something about the lyrics of that song that spoke very much to the theme of what we wanted to get into in the story of the game.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
Well, it's what she promises all of them in that room. Yeah. And it's like to go back, I think is one of your earliest question in this episode of Why did we do it at this moment? Why kill Joel episode two and not later? Again, these are conversations that we had early on when we were constructing the season. And it's like, because this is the beginning of the story.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
This is where the story starts in earnest.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
The whole thing is so surreal. I don't even know how to quite get into it. You know, there's something worth noting that when we made game one, we didn't know there was going to be a game two. So there was a long search to even find that storyline.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
How do you continue the story about love when, you know, if you just kind of examine season one or game one, it's like we go kind of like to the end of like the kind of sacrifices people would make for love. But it felt like there's somewhere further to still go. which is the idea of justice.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
There's something I really enjoy of working with Craig and working with everybody else on this show and just seeing how they've interpreted the game. I loved making that game so much, even though it's dark subject matter and you have to hurt characters you really love, but that's sometimes my favorite thing as a writer is to be cruel to characters. Well, the world is cruel. Yeah.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
But it's also you get to see who they are and who are the people around them based on these things that happened. It wasn't chasing some shock value. It's what the story needed. But I just really enjoyed doing this deeper dive. And one of the things that we couldn't do in the game, and it was... one of our earliest conversations of how we're gonna achieve this moment.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
In the game, we talk about things happen to Jackson. There are certain attacks, whether it's infected or raiders, but we never get to see it. Here, because we're not playing any one particular character, you could jump between this attack on Jackson and this situation that Joel found himself in.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
And then again, showing the kind of loss you could experience in this world, both on a very personal, intimate level and on a community level. And that is something that we'll visit again in this season.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
Well, there's something about grief plus injustice that is driving her a little mad, where it's like, right, it's infecting even her dreams. It's a sort of infection.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
Well, it's like, you know, we're so, I think, used to certain narrative structures, especially like Hollywood movies, where there's like a karmic justice. It's interesting, you know, you hear Craig talk about it. He's like, you're not rooting for Joel. But I know many of our audience do. And me watching the show, actually, I am rooting for Joel.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
Well, in a way, because I've often, right, and then making this story, I would think about what I wish I could do in Joel's position. And I wish I could act like Joel and save my daughter. And that whatever it takes. And I would try to do whatever it takes.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
But then the thing that we know we almost never get to see is like, okay, what about the other side? What about the doctor that is trying to save the world? And what about everybody that's close to him? Again, we just tend to paint these characters as good guys and bad guys, and they're just survivors. They're just, each person has their own motivation and
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
their heart is kind of in the right place, right? Joel's trying to save Ellie, this doctor is trying to save the world, and Abby feels like an injustice has been done, and it must be corrected for the world to feel right.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 2 - “Through the Valley”
And it's also important to note here that Abby could have just shot Joel and it would have been over. But that wouldn't have been enough for her because she had felt all this intense pain for all these years. Somehow, and I think we all do this to some degree, when someone wrongs us, when someone cuts us off on the highway, we have to make the other person pay in as much, if not more so.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Mm-hmm. Her approach to violence is different from Joel's. Where Joel is like, he's good at it, but he doesn't like it. He doesn't get any joy out of it. It's a very pragmatic solution to a horrible world. There's a thrill that Ellie has and she seeks it. It's why she wants to go on patrols.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
It's why she, like, she could have a different job at Jackson, but she's purposefully going after putting herself in situations where she will have to use violence. Like, it's almost like there's something that's missing from her life if she doesn't have it.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Yeah, it's another way to get control in this unpredictable world. If you're more powerful, and again, this violence, this martial arts that she's studying, it allows her to have more power in this world and thereby have more control over her life.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
I think last season we talked about how wide is humanity. In season one, a lot of it is just Joel and Ellie. And the fear Joel had in taking Ellie on is that, oh no, If I have these same feelings I've had before in my past, I have something to lose. And Jackson is this really special place. And, you know, as Craig is saying, maybe the only place that is this special.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Now there's something to lose. There's also something to fight for.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
You know, in the game, Dina talks about her relationship with Joel, but we actually never see it. So this was one of those changes we decided to make very early on, is like wanting to show that relationship. And through that relationship, we get to see how both of these characters feel about Ellie. And Joel is good at a few things, whether he knows it or not. He's good at surviving and killing.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
He's good at fixing things and building things, which is maybe where he's most comfortable. But he's a good parent, like, with some dark elements mixed in there. Sure. But he can't help but, like, mentor this girl that is drawn to him because he is this figure in this community.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
But he probably has an ulterior motive, which is, like, Ellie won't talk to him, so he could find out how Ellie is doing through this other character who has become a really good friend to Ellie.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Bella and Isabella, like... It's one of those gambles, you know, when we first cast her, like, you're hoping, you're praying that the chemistry will be there, they'll get along. And so to see it come to fruition like that... That was the first day...
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
I had weird fears, which was like, I wanted to work on this and I knew we would change certain things. I was just very curious how would a TV audience would react? Is it going to be a different reaction? So there's just like a curiosity of like, what's going to happen here? So that's why I really kind of like relied on Craig in those instances to just say, what's best for the show?
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
If I may say one other thing about Catherine O'Hara, this is the thing the viewer will never see, but it's like when we say cut and she's just there hanging out, she's kind and generous and is just there to play and try things and just throw herself at this role.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Like really kind of let's hold each other accountable to do what's best for the show.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Yeah. And I think the thread you're starting to see here between like Abby and her reaction to Joel, Ellie and her reaction to Joel and Gail and her reaction to Joel is that there are certain actions that have consequences and we're starting to feel the ripple effects of those actions.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
I'll try not to do this too much on this podcast, but that's one of those moments. I mean, I wasn't there for the filming of that, but I saw it right afterwards. And you just get emotional because you could feel the love that people had for the source material. Since season one came out, people have asked me, like, oh, what's the secret sauce to making an adaptation that works?
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Now I know, having finished season one, which is, like, find someone that loves it as much as you do. That's Craig Mazin, and that's Ksenia, is one of those people who's played the game and loves it so much, it's in her bones. Like, she knows the game inside out. So when it's trying to capture something almost identically, it's not quite the same shot. It feels like the same shot.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
It feels like the same shot. And all the work, again, for the set design, for like the extras that are there, again, trying to capture this moment. So much work goes into something that feels simple when you're viewing it.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
I feel something that the rest of Naughty Dog, the studio that made the game, feels, which is like a respect and love for the source material that can only come if you really cared about and appreciate it.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
One other fun note here, you know, when we made the game, I wanted there to be a band. But, you know, when you make a game, every character you make, you have to model them. You have to, like, model them from scratch. So it's actually really expensive to add new characters. And we're just running out of time, so we couldn't make a band playing this music.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
So we just had a record player that's playing on some speakers, some AV system. Here we brought Crooked Still, are the ones playing there, and they're sitting there with Gustavo Santolalla, our composer.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Yeah, there's a lot of really beautiful stuff that's happening in that moment, which is like Ellie's insecurity. Ellie's feeling like she's not worthy of someone like Dina. And then, you know, there's Joel who's hanging... in the sidelines. He's trying his best to give Ellie the space that she's wanted, but he's controlling her from afar.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
And we get to hear that from some of the conversations she's having with Jesse. And then he can't help himself. When the Seth moment happens, the dad part of his brain just completely takes over and he's gotta act. And he acts the way that he knows how he's learned in this world, which is violently. Get the hell out of here.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
What is wrong with you? I don't need your fucking help.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
We didn't talk about the conversation Ellie's having with Tommy, and clearly people are aware there's something going on between Ellie and Joel, but it's like under the surface, and now it's explicit. And now I think the humiliation is like, I've just made it worse.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Okay, so one-on-one. I've done that before. If you'd rather let the men handle it.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Yes. And then they're quiet. They run away, which is like, they've never seen anything like this before.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Swear to me that everything you said about the fireflies is true.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
You know, when we finished season one, one of our livelier debates was, what is the final shot? Yeah. Do we end it just like the game, you know, when Ellie says, okay, and we cut to black? Or do we go to this wider shot where we see them walk off towards Jackson? And we actually even see Joel's reaction to that okay, which didn't happen in the game. We were kind of batting this back and forth.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
And, you know, our process is always very open. Just because something was done in the game and it was successful in the game doesn't mean it's the best choice for the show, best choice for these characters. So we will try multiple edits.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Our philosophy, too, when we shoot stuff, we try a lot of different things, get a lot of coverage, because we don't quite know all work when we're in the editing room, so we just want to have as many of those pieces as possible to play with.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
And ultimately, the conclusion we came to is like, there was something ending about the unresolved note when Ellie says, okay, that worked best for season one in the same way that it worked for the game. But now we had this footage.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
We could literally pick it up right from then and there and see Joel's reaction and kind of feel this tension because again, that conversation is so important for everything that's about to come. It felt appropriate to start there.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
The fact that Abby is a firefly is something we withheld in the game for a very, very long time, and it comes in much later in the story. But here, we just decided to reveal it very early and to just lean into it and show who she is, because, again, it wasn't a huge surprise.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
So those are the kinds of conversations we're having about where should certain things go, and then where should certain things be expanded? What else can we learn about these characters? And is there any opportunities to dig deeper and find out more of who they are, what makes them tick?
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
When you're playing as the character, you have this immediate empathy towards them. Like, you don't have to have as much quote-unquote writing or drama or show as much relationships. That is more of like the fuel for how the game moves forward. We don't have that, so then we have to rely on other things. Yeah, that's a great point. Let's talk about Caitlin Deaver.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Caitlin was involved in the world of The Last of Us going back many years when it was going to be a movie. Ended up not happening, but she was in the running to play Ellie. And then when we made the show in season one, she kind of aged out of that role, so it wasn't really a consideration.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
But then when we thought about the season and her name came up and we started discussing it, Caitlin is so talented. And I had the privilege of working with her a little bit on Uncharted 4 video game.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
It was very easy to just close your eyes and see her as this character and see that because this character, going back to what Craig was saying earlier, just has this drive, this passion, this intensity, this intense pursuit of justice. Anne has to be extremely vulnerable at the same time and have all these other facets that we haven't even seen yet.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
It didn't take much imagination to view her in that role.
HBO's The Last of Us Podcast
Episode 1 - “Future Days”
Well, I can obviously take a punch, so who cares? Fucking hard, by the way.