Host Troy Baker and The Last of Us showrunners Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann take a deep breath and get into the shocking events of Episode 2. This spoiler-filled conversation involves how they approached bringing one of the most controversial moments of the game to television, if they ever considered changing Joel’s fate, behind-the-scenes stories from the Jackson battle, and whether we’ve seen the last of Joel. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who are the hosts and what is the episode about?
Welcome back to the official podcast for the HBO original series, The Last of Us. I'm Troy Baker, and I play Joel in The Last of Us video games. Joining me as always are the showrunners of the HBO series, Craig Mazin. Good to see you. And Neil Druckmann. Hi, Troy. Today, we are unpacking episode two of the second season. And listeners, here is your warning.
You will want to have watched this episode in its entirety before you hear this conversation. Trust me, there are many, many spoilers ahead. This episode called Through the Valley was written by Hugh Craig and it was directed by Mark Mylod. A lot happens in this episode.
Yeah.
including what would be one of the most controversial and biggest bombshells of the series, the death of a beloved character, Joel. Wait, what? It's a shock. People who have played the game, they've been bracing for this. They've been one step ahead of a lot of people who haven't been familiar with this story. Let's just dive straight into that.
Chapter 2: Why was Joel's death a controversial moment and how was it handled?
Well, they've been one step ahead in that they understood it was going to happen. I don't think that anyone knew exactly when it would happen.
Although some people doubted it.
That it would happen at all.
We did see some people say, oh, Pedro's too popular. HBO will not let them.
Yeah, HBO, the place that made Game of Thrones when Ned Stark gets his head lopped off. I'm still reeling from that. I mean, first of all, let's just all take a big deep breath because that was a lot. The episode is a lot. There is... this massive attack on Jackson, people's lives are in danger. It is absolute mayhem.
And also, there is this brutal moment that ends with Bella both terrifying you and breaking your heart at the same time. And I think it's fair to say that a lot of people, having seen the episode, are a bit shaken, and reasonably so. It is a big thing we've asked the audience to swallow. It is going to upset a lot of people, and that's okay.
And they may be angry about it, and they may be confused about it, and they may be miserable about it, but I'm hoping that for the majority of them, they are going to reconnect now with who's left behind and what happens now. Because what happens now is one unstoppable force meeting another.
Do you feel like there is this unspoken expectation now from the audience you have to set the bar of catastrophe and tragedy so high that you have to continually chase that? Was that what compelled you to follow through with this act that obviously happened in the game, but to do it as early as you did to not change the timeline? What brought you to making this decision?
Well, the easy part was the source material was correct. I remember playing it and experiencing it and feeling horrible. But there is that difference between experiencing something and feeling horrible because you loved somebody and you're grieving for the loss of that person. And you're shocked that the story would be so dangerous as to kill that person.
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Chapter 3: How did the creators decide when and how to include Joel’s fate in the show?
And we talked about this a lot. And it felt to us like episode one really taught us a lot about where Joel was and what his relationship was like with Ellie. And it doesn't end well. And here we get to episode two and this happens and you feel this double destruction because as far as we know, her relationship with Joel was broken and now she's forced to watch him die.
And it's like a double wound to the heart.
I remember the first time you, Neil, talked to me about bringing this plot point in. We were in London. We were standing outside the after-after party of an award show. And you said, so I have an idea for part two. And in your very Neil way, you said, so Joel dies.
And I remember being... I like that, like he was setting you up for like a more interesting second part of that sentence. Clearly this happened.
Yeah. And I, like a lot of people, had to process that. And that was something that was processed through not only hearing from you the first time, but then also seeing the script and then shooting the scene and then playing the game. What was it like for you coming from making the game, obviously, and knowing that this is coming, seeing how we're going to adapt?
Like we've talked about so many times, how do we adapt these key important events and these characters into this thing? But what was it like for you revisiting this from a different perspective?
The whole thing is so surreal. I don't even know how to quite get into it. You know, there's something worth noting that when we made game one, we didn't know there was going to be a game two. So there was a long search to even find that storyline.
How do you continue the story about love when, you know, if you just kind of examine season one or game one, it's like we go kind of like to the end of like the kind of sacrifices people would make for love. But it felt like there's somewhere further to still go. which is the idea of justice.
There's something I really enjoy of working with Craig and working with everybody else on this show and just seeing how they've interpreted the game. I loved making that game so much, even though it's dark subject matter and you have to hurt characters you really love, but that's sometimes my favorite thing as a writer is to be cruel to characters. Well, the world is cruel. Yeah.
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Chapter 4: What is the significance of Abby’s dream sequence and her grief?
Do you know how many you killed that day? Did you count as you went, or... I guess maybe it just didn't matter. Eighteen soldiers... and one doctor. You remember that one. An unarmed doctor. You shot in the head. Yeah.
That was my dad.
And there's this moment between the two of them that I love and must give credit to Mark Mylot, our director, whose people may know him from Succession. And here he is doing this brilliant job with these actors in these little moments where Abby says, we have a code and the code is not to hurt people who can't defend themselves.
And that's you right now, but I am gonna kill you because everyone agrees. that some things are just wrong. And Joel gives the slightest nod because he is acknowledging that what he did was capital W wrong, but also we understand he didn't care and he still doesn't care. It doesn't matter. So yes, does he deserve to die by the rules of the universe? Sure.
Neil, you've said something before to where one of the reasons why people have struggled with this is because it's not fair. It's not right. Or even more so, someone goes, well, no, I get it. That's what Joel deserves. But you said that's not how this world operates.
Well, it's like, you know, we're so, I think, used to certain narrative structures, especially like Hollywood movies, where there's like a karmic justice. It's interesting, you know, you hear Craig talk about it. He's like, you're not rooting for Joel. But I know many of our audience do. And me watching the show, actually, I am rooting for Joel.
Even when he shoots that guy in the head? Yeah. Even when he shoots the guy.
Well, in a way, because I've often, right, and then making this story, I would think about what I wish I could do in Joel's position. And I wish I could act like Joel and save my daughter. And that whatever it takes. And I would try to do whatever it takes.
Would I be strong enough to take myself to the extremity of my own humanity for the purpose of saving her?
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Chapter 5: How does the show explore moral ambiguity through Joel and Abby’s characters?
I assume, Craig, you share this, but I have a nervousness of like, especially for the really important scenes that you guys did so well, Troy. that they won't live up to it, that somehow we'll fall short in the retelling of the story.
And I remember when I talked to Mark, I had a Zoom call with him before he was directing this episode, and I'm like, dude, man, you got this giant battle in front of you, and there's freaking bloaters and infected and explosions. Man, just the prep for that must be unnerving. He's like, yeah, yeah, that's all true. But I'll be honest with you, Neil, the thing I'm most nervous for is this death.
because I watched that part of the game, and it's like, I saw the weight of it, and I'm like, I have to do this justice. And he said, like, it was keeping him up at night. And I got to give everybody their credit. They did it justice.
Before this tragic event, we really get a chance to spend some time with Ellie and find out how she feels about Joel and where she's at with that relationship.
Well, it's a bit of a mystery, because... The night before, she told him she didn't need his help. She rejected him. She came home. She saw him on the porch. She walked right by him. Didn't say a word. Cold as ice. It's the next morning. And what she says to Jesse is, no offense, I think I'm just going to go on patrol with a Joel. She wants to go on patrol with Joel. What has happened?
And when Jesse pushes on her, she kind of explodes.
You know what? No offense, man. I'm going to do my patrol with Joel.
Um, yes, offense, because that's the one person you've been avoiding like the plague.
Well, we're better now, okay?
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Chapter 6: What are the challenges of adapting the game’s pivotal scenes for television?
It may have been a nice theory, but... Sure, you never know what your partner will do in that situation until you see him. It's like, he was just met with You know, there's the brigade of, we're the fire people. And what happens to two of them?
They tuck tail. I'm out of here. That would happen.
Absolutely. I would be one of those guys. I don't look at them as cowards. No. There is something genetically inside of me that goes, you're no longer in control. I'm going to take you out of this. And to have that then, there's a lot of mirroring. And I'm already picking up on something that I believe is intentional, which is the duality of everything.
The duality of we see the cowardice is put on display and we see heroism. That is the pendulum swinging to the other side.
We don't chase stakes. You know, at some point, I know in movies, you eventually have to protect the entire galaxy. It's not enough to, you know, save your town. But for us, the stakes are the people and the relationships, and if we feel those, and if those are threatened.
You can have an entire town under attack by waves of infected, but if you don't have Maria and Tommy looking at each other, and Tommy trying to save her, and her saving him. And, you know, it's just a fight.
We see these monsters that are attacking the big town, the big community. We also see the monster that's attacking one person.
And let's stop for a moment and talk about the monsters as heroes of their story, because they're the most selfless. They're the most about community. They sacrifice each other willy-nilly. to protect the people behind them, the way that ants work. They are more cohesive, more collected, and more unified than people are. And that's, to me, its own fascinating thing.
There's a reason cordyceps took over the world. They're better at it than we are. So we've created this little enclave to hide. Well, they're gonna try and get in anyway. But when you have a battle that is this big, with this many people,
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