Natalie Kitroweth
Appearances
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitro-Eff. This is The Daily.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Okay, so you see Baldoni kind of vacillating. You see Nathan responding. But Megan, do we know actually whether the online backlash against Lively is the result of these, quote, very specific things that the team is doing?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
When you reached out to them, to the Baldoni team, what did they say about all this?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Standard operating practice for stories like this, the no surprises email.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Right. And this is something his supporters have really seized on online, right?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
And we should say for listeners that before this interview, the team at The Daily got an official statement on this lawsuit from The New York Times company. It says that The Times stands by the story, saying it was meticulously and responsibly reported and that the company plans to, quote, vigorously defend against the suit.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
So, Megan, how did Baldoni's legal team respond to the second issue, Lively's allegations of sexual harassment during filming?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
In effect, Wayfair is saying, yes, we made accommodations to Lively on set, but they weren't because of any underlying wrongdoing on our part.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Megan, after all this, this whole discussion that we've had, I feel genuinely confused about what to think here. And I'm also keenly aware that this has been about public narratives and public perceptions all along. So where do we stand with that tug of war over narratives now?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Yeah, I watched the video and read a lot of commentary about it. And what was striking to me was just how differently people were interpreting what it actually proved.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Megan, after spending all of this time looking deep into this story and this alleged smear campaign, seeing the responses from both sides, the debates about the responses, what's your takeaway from all this?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Right. And so in your mind, it sounds like the very existence of a campaign like the one alleged in the complaint that uses these new tactics and tools to prevent reputational damage, that's what's most significant here.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Okay, let's talk about the campaign as described in the filing. Where does that story start?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Over the last few weeks, two Hollywood stars, Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, have gone to battle over exactly what happened during the making and promotion of their latest film.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Here's what else you need to know today. A jolt of panic hit technology stocks on Monday after the debut of a chatbot from the Chinese company DeepSeek. DeepSeek's models appear to rival those from OpenAI, Google, and Meta. And the company says it created its chatbot with a small fraction of the specialized computer chips that its American competitors use.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Hardest hit in the sell-off was chipmaker NVIDIA, which dropped nearly 17% and lost roughly $600 billion in market value. The assumption in the tech industry was that in order to build bigger and better AI systems, companies would have to spend billions on new data centers that relied on NVIDIA's chips. An assumption that DeepSeq has potentially upended.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Today's episode was produced by Will Reed and Muj Zaydi, with help from Michael Simon Johnson. It was edited by Mike Benoit, contains original music by Alishaba Etup, Rowan Nemisto, Diane Wong, and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Bremberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Thank you. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kitroweth. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Yes, I know her. I think I've seen her books like a million times at the airport, for example.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
It's a dispute that's pulled back the curtain on an alleged smear campaign and the new set of tools that celebrities can use to defend themselves and redefine their enemies in the court of public opinion.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Okay, so according to Lively's complaint, there are a number of things on set that make this situation unworkable. What are the conditions that she asks for to deal with them?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Okay, so Lively gets the conditions that she asks for. How do those work out in the end?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
It kind of sounds like the situation was handled relatively well in the end. I mean, she asks for certain things to happen, they happen, and according to her, the situation on set is better.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Today, my colleague Megan Toohey on the legal complaint that started it all.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Right. I mean, in Instagram world, being unfollowed, you couldn't get a more obvious sign of a disagreement than that.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Megan, in my reporting, I'm used to people hiring crisis PR firms to deal with a corporate crisis or a political problem. In this case, I'm assuming the function is essentially the same. I mean, you're hiring a crisis PR firm to avert a reputational crisis.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
It's Tuesday, January 28th. Megan, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. So you have broken and covered some of the biggest stories of sexual harassment in Hollywood, but your latest article has generated an extraordinary amount of attention, even for you. And I have to confess to being pretty read in on this one. It has been difficult to avoid the online conversation around it.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Can you just read me some of this? Because I think a lot of what we're going to be talking about here are about the internal communications that are going on. I just think it would be useful to hear some of these messages.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
So in these texts, in the complaint, you do see a shift from just protecting Baldoni's reputation to potentially targeting Blake Lively, going after her.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
All that is sort of jargony, but it sounds like what's being discussed is a proposal for an all-out push on social media to take control of the public narrative here, you know, intervening in the online conversations about Lively and Baldoni and influencing it specifically to benefit Baldoni and to hurt Lively.
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
So, Megan, what did this plan, which was supposed to be untraceable, actually look like when it was put into action?
The Daily
The Legal Battle Riveting Hollywood
Okay, so this sounds in keeping with the kinds of things they had outlined in their plan to Baldoni. What does that actually involve?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroff. This is The Daily. Artificial intelligence has changed the way millions of people write emails, conduct research, and seek advice. All things that are essential, but mostly unfeeling. Today, my colleague Kashmir Hill on a woman whose relationship with the chatbot went much further than that. And what her story means for love in the age of AI.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
From what you're saying, she feels like she actually lost someone. She lost this history. She lost all of this rapport. She doesn't have the relationship that she just spent a lot of time building.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
We'll be right back. Okay, Kashmir, before we go any further, I just have to ask, how much of this dynamic is specific to Irene and her very particular circumstances? I understand that people are increasingly using chatbots in more intimate ways, but is this version a little out there? Is it an anomaly?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Okay, so part of the training and development of these models actually leads toward a kind of chatbot that is serving up exactly what the user wants to hear. But... Is this healthy, this kind of relationship?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
But Isn't a real relationship also just in part about having someone who can reflect back to you the things you might not want to see, who isn't so sycophantic, who's, you know, helping you actually confront your defects and deal with them?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Right, right. I mean, I think we all might fantasize about the world where we're not getting in any fights with our partner. But the truth is that partnership is also about challenging each other.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Right. I can imagine that if you've never had a real romantic relationship, you don't really know what one is, and this is your first and real only experience with it, there are some risks in that relationship.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Did you talk to Irene about any of this, about these blurred lines between reality and this created fantasy world? What does she think about some of this stuff?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Love takes many forms, I guess. Kashmir, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks, Natalie. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. The growing rift between the US and France over the war in Ukraine was unmistakable during a meeting between President Trump and French President Emmanuel Macron at the White House on Monday.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Amid handshakes, hugs, and compliments, the two leaders struck very different notes on the causes of the conflict in Ukraine and the path to resolving it. Trump predicted a peace deal could be made between Russia and Ukraine within weeks. But he made no mention of Ukrainian sovereignty, he refused to call Vladimir Putin a dictator, and he falsely claimed that the U.S.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
had spent three times as much on the war as Europe. Macron made clear that Russia was to blame for the war, and corrected President Trump's false statements about European aid. And... Roberta Flack, the singer and pianist whose elegant blend of soul, jazz, and folk made her one of the most popular artists of the 1970s, died at the age of 88.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Flack, who grew up in a segregated town in Virginia, got her big break playing piano at an upscale opera-themed restaurant in Washington, D.C.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Before long, she was recording breakout hits like Where Is the Love and Killing Me Softly. In 1974, she became the first artist ever to win the Grammy Award for Record of the Year in two consecutive years.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Today's episode was produced by Nina Feldman, Sydney Harper, Shannon Lin, and Mary Wilson. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg and Mike Benoit. Contains original music by Diane Wong, Marion Lozano, Rowan Nemisto, Alishaba Etup, and Pat McCusker, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Ketro-Eff.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Kashmir, just to pause for a second, should I be calling this thing Leo, it, him? How do you navigate that?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
It's Tuesday, February 25th. Kashmir, welcome back to the show. Thank you. So you're known here at The Times for covering some of the strangest, most futuristic corners of the tech world. But even for you, it seems like this story of this woman and her relationship with a chatbot really stood out. So tell me about it.
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Leo. Okay, got it. And so what do Irene and Leo talk about?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Okay, so ChatGPT is willing to engage in this fantasy with her, and this is a family show, so I don't want to get too explicit, but what does that actually look like in sex with a chatbot?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Up to 56 hours is just so much time. I don't mean to sound dismissive here, but how can one spend this amount of energy and time just texting with a chatbot?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
So when she says she's in love with Leo, what does she actually mean?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
Okay, what are those effects? And I'm thinking specifically of her husband. She's clearly investing a lot of time and emotional energy into this interaction. What does he say about it?
The Daily
She Fell in Love With ChatGPT. Like, Actual Love. With Sex.
It sounds like her husband is not actually that bothered by this relationship. But in the meantime, Irene and Leo are still talking. Kashmir, how does something like this progress? In a relationship with a human, you might, you know, move in together, get a dog. What do you do with a chatbot?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And he said, the only option for me right now is survival. No, we're not cooking. No, we're not making fentanyl. That is shut down right now. It may be temporary. We are moving labs. We're doing this elsewhere. But right now I am on lockdown here. I am not leaving my house. I have lookouts everywhere and I can't even be here. He cut the meeting short. He basically ran out. He was so scared.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Well, these guys that we're talking to are saying, look, the main thing that has changed from when you were here last is that Trump is in office and he's making all of these threats. And the Mexican government is cracking down like never before. Obviously, the Mexican authorities were on the streets before this. It's not like they weren't doing anything.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
But the cartel members say they're feeling the heat at a much higher level.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Mexico is a huge producer of fentanyl, not just in the U.S., but worldwide. And so I wanted to get into that manufacturing operation. This is a synthetic opioid. It's not grown in fields like heroin, you know, cocaine. These are natural drugs. Fentanyl is made from chemicals in labs.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Yeah, I think that's what it looks like to a lot of people, a lot of regular Mexicans, a lot of cartel members and a lot of security experts who have been studying this for a long time. Now, we have to keep in mind, Claudia Shainbaum, the new president, had come into office about a month before Trump was elected and then eventually started making these threats.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
So she had signaled early on that she was more willing to take on the cartel's head on aggressively than her predecessor. So we don't know how much of this might have happened without Trump anyway, because she was willing to change the approach. But I think it's pretty clear that the amount of progress, arrests, raids, lab busts, the pace of these actions is
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
is something that we've not seen in recent history in Mexico. One analyst told us, we've seen in one month what we might have seen in years.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Yeah, I mean, obviously the threat of military intervention in any way, even if it's just targeted strikes, is anathema in Mexico. But the threat of tariffs has long seemed much more credible.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
I have to say, of the two, I think the tariff threat is the one that really spurs the action because there's a deadline. I mean, last month, Trump essentially gave the Mexican government 30 days to show results on security, to deliver him the progress he wanted to see on fentanyl. And
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
When there's a deadline, I mean, people hustle to meet that deadline, especially if, you know, on the other side of that is potential economic ruin. So I do think that was really motivating here.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Well, the leaders in Mexico are just absolutely baffled about these tariffs. They do not understand why they're getting punished after having delivered so many wins for Trump on security. I mean, just days ago, the Mexican government handed over 29 drug lords that the U.S. government had been seeking to prosecute in the United States. These are major figures that had been given over to the U.S.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
government. And the Mexicans are saying, wait a minute. We've gone hard on these cartels. We've given you these capos. What more could we possibly do? Well, what's the answer?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And to understand how these little pills end up in the hands of Americans every single day, I found it extremely important to see with my own eyes exactly how it's made step by step.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Well, I mean, it's unclear. Nobody knows exactly what Trump wants. And it's a mystery whether there are actual benchmarks here or not, or whether the goalposts are just going to keep moving and moving and moving. And there is some suggestion that they might reach a deal soon. But... The reality is that this pressure is horrific for Mexico. Mexico is incredibly dependent on the U.S.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
economy, on being able to access U.S. markets. This could potentially push the country into a recession. And so Claudia Shainbaum and her government are going to do absolutely everything they can to get out from under this. And if that means... More security gains.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
I think they're looking at how they can possibly do more because they feel like they have their foot completely on the gas at this point. And they still got hit with the tariffs.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Yeah, I mean, it remains to be seen. I mean, I told you that I was skeptical at the outset that this would have made a real difference. And I was proven wrong by the reporting. It very much has made a difference. But we have no idea, actually, what the Mexican government may be able to accomplish as it tries to stave off these tariffs, get out from under them. Keep in mind.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
The Mexican government has been busting labs across the country, but the most intense crackdown has been mainly concentrated in this one state, Sinaloa. It's a really important state, it's a major hub of fentanyl production, but it's just one state.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
This drug is made all over the country, and if you imagine this crackdown spreading, it requires a lot of resource, it requires a lot of troops, it requires a lot of intelligence, and it requires a lot of willingness sustained over a really long period of time to make a difference. There is also huge demand for this drug in the United States that really hasn't been addressed.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And so it is hard to imagine that even this push, even a sustained push, could entirely stamp out the production of this drug without a lot of other elements coming into play. And I think we're all watching to see what those elements are. Will Trump decide to address demand in the United States, the addiction that has driven so many people to this lethal substance?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Will Shainbaum continue the pressure? And for how long can Trump really keep Mexico in this position of trying to satisfy his demands? Because if they reach a deal on tariffs, then what?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Right. And are we looking at a period of potentially several years of these threats and uncertainty and upheaval, or is this all just going to go away tomorrow if they reach a deal?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Yeah. I mean, it wasn't easy. These are, as you said, illegal labs. This is happening underground. This is clandestine. You know, how do you break into a network that is run by cartels, by powerful organizations that are responsible for death and destruction across the country?
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
I think what we've seen is that at least in this context, in this month and in this place, the tariffs worked, for now at least.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
No, but I mean, you should. You have to if you want to understand this thing, right? And yes, there are risks, obviously, but there's no way to really get inside this business without seeing it for yourself. And so my colleague Paulina Villegas and I started making trips to Sinaloa. Sinaloa is a state in the northwest of Mexico.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
It is a major hub of global fentanyl production, and it's the home base of one of the most dangerous and powerful criminal organizations in the world, the Sinaloa cartel. We knew that we had to make inroads in this state in order to get into a lab because these are the guys that really dominate production, according to U.S. law enforcement. So we started to go there. We started reporting.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
We made contacts within the cartel. We did interviews. We talked to leaders. We talked to cooks, meaning the people who actually make the fentanyl. And I mean, there were so many obstacles that kept preventing us from getting into a lab. We had an inroad here. It was shut down. An inroad there. It had just been busted. And then finally, in the middle of December, we got in.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
So the original plan was to go into this lab in the morning, but there was a problem. The cooks who were inviting us to see the process told us that they had just gotten busted. And so they needed to move locations and they were going to put a makeshift lab.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
We didn't really know where at that point, but, you know, several hours later, then into the evening, we find out that it's going to be in the center of the capital city where we are, Kulia Khan. So we drive to this location, and it's a busy street. I mean, there's taco stands outside. People are walking around. It's not, you know, a deserted area in the middle of nowhere.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
I mean, it looked like any other house. And as far as I could tell, all the people walking by had absolutely no idea that inside what looked like a normal house was an active fentanyl lab at that point. When we go in, it's pitch black, and we immediately smell a very, very intense smell. It's like a strong smell of chemicals.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
In our context that we're working with, say, this is the textbook smell of fentanyl. And at the end of this pitch black kind of hallway, we see two 20-something guys. They introduce themselves. They say we can bring in one phone and one camera. But we agree that we're not going to publish any recordings that have their voices on them or photos that might identify their faces.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And we start getting suited up at this point. And what that means is we're putting on hazmat suits. We're putting on our gas masks. We put on gloves. We're preparing to come in contact with a very toxic substance. We walked down the hall with them and then we went in.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And I realize that we're in what's a really basic kitchen. I mean, there's not a lot of advanced equipment here. I'm watching the fumes come off two pots that are on a regular kitchen stove. They have two pots on the stove that, you know, are being heated with liquid. They have trays with chemicals on them. They have jugs with powder in them. But apart from that, there isn't that much to it.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
They have beers that they're clearly drinking while they do this. At one point, one of the cooks asks the other one for this essential chemical ingredient, and the guy turns around to the food pantry and pulls out a jug of it that's just next to hot sauce and other stuff that you might actually use to make food.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And they're handling this blue powder that is close to what would be pressed into a pill. And you can just see the blue seeping in. This is the kind of pill you see on American streets, these baby blue fentanyl pills. They start showing me, like, look, we dye it blue if the client wants it blue. So it was just remarkable how commonplace all of this seemed to them.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
I think the main takeaway that I had leaving the lab was this is a drug that is extraordinarily easy to produce in almost any conditions. And once you get the product, the amount that you need to make a lot of money if you're the cartel or if you're a user to potentially kill you is tiny. I mean, the U.S.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
government says that people who have not been exposed to fentanyl could be killed by the amount that fits on the tip of of a pencil. And in this kitchen, in this makeshift lab, I had just seen that tip of the pencil thousands of times over.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Yeah, I mean, Michael, obviously you could theoretically make fentanyl in Texas, but the conditions are not as good as they are in Mexico. There's an entire infrastructure that really supports this. The Sinaloa cartel, the cartel that is, according to the U.S. government, responsible for bringing much of the fentanyl on American streets across the border. Mm-hmm.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
It's weird being on the mic as a guest, but here we are.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
They have years worth of experience in industrialized drug production. They've done this with a ton of different products, including meth, which is another synthetic drug. So they have experience in making drugs out of chemicals. They also have a lot of experience corrupting the Mexican government.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
The last time there was a major crackdown on drug cartels, the security chief that led that crackdown ended up being convicted in an American court for taking bribes from the Sinaloa cartel. So this is an incredibly powerful, experienced organization that has the wherewithal and the resources to do this. And the Mexican government has not been effective at stamping that out.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Right. I mean, and this has been an open question in Mexico and in the United States for years. Is it capacity? Is it ability? Or is it willingness, as you say? And it's kind of difficult to know because it hasn't been happening and it's hard to disentangle the reasons why. But at the time that I'm visiting this lab, the U.S. is preparing to inaugurate Donald Trump.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And he pretty quickly makes it very clear that he thinks he knows why.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
I know. I was kind of wondering how you were going to handle that.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
It's that Mexico just doesn't want to do enough, that there's not enough progress being made, that the country is absolutely dominated by this drug. And he's saying the government absolutely needs to do more or there will be consequences.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Exactly. And as soon as he finally takes office, I'm not happy with Mexico. He just starts lobbing attack after attack on Mexico. And he's really turning the heat up.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
There's this threat in the air about a potential for U.S. military forces to do targeted strikes on drug labs and cartels in Mexico. Eventually, the administration officially designates the cartels as terrorist organizations. And most importantly... I'll be...
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
Trump says he's going to impose massive, devastating tariffs on Mexico unless they get this problem under control.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
I mean, honestly, Michael, I was deeply skeptical. I had been going to Sinaloa for months. Based on everything I'd seen, this organization, this criminal group was just so entrenched in so many aspects of daily life. And it's really hard to imagine making a serious impact on a production operation that requires so little that can just be restarted from one moment to the next.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
in a place that is dominated by one of the most powerful criminal organizations on the planet. But even though I was really skeptical, I wanted to go back into a lab to see whether all of these threats, whether all of the pressure that Trump had put on Mexico had led to real changes, whether any of this actually made a difference.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
It was really remarkable. The dynamics, it seemed, had completely changed from the last time we were there. I mean, this was still a very dangerous place. There was a lot of violence. But when we started talking to our cartel contacts, they told us there was basically no production of fentanyl happening in the city. It had totally plummeted. Fallen off a cliff. I mean...
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
So I'm the bureau chief here in Mexico City. And for a really long time now, I've been obsessed with the fentanyl problem. Obviously, we know that in the United States, fentanyl has just been a scourge for years. It is killing tens of thousands of Americans every year. And much of the fentanyl that ends up on the street is made in Mexico.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
They acknowledged that production was happening elsewhere in the country. It's not like fentanyl stopped being made in Mexico writ large. But here, things had slowed to a near halt. We met the two cooks who had invited us into their labs. They said, no, we shut everything down. There is such an intense crackdown by the government right now, and we're under so much scrutiny and pressure that
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
that we're not cooking anything. We didn't meet them inside a lab. They met us at our hotel room, and they said, we're not doing anything right now. We're actually firing employees. We're saving money. We're trying to sell our cars and other property to try to make up for lost income because nothing is going on here. There is no lab for you to visit this time around.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And we saw firsthand the crackdown that they were so afraid of. at one point we're driving down the street and these police trucks pull up these guys just start spilling out of them and they're scaling the walls of this house suddenly they're on the roof all right we're literally watching a raid on a house go down we just
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
It's very clear to us that something is going down.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
And this kind of scene was playing out all over the city. This is just like an area that we've been hanging out in this whole time.
The Daily
How Tariffs Are Shaking Up the War on Fentanyl
While we were there, the Mexican government arrested two major players within the cartel. So there was a lot of activity. At one point, we go to meet with a higher-level cartel member who, when we get to him, he said he'd heard about the raid that we ran up on, and he is... genuinely shaking. His hands... Physically shaking. His hands are trembling in front of us.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitro-Eff. This is The Daily. Last week, financial markets went into a panic over an obscure Chinese tech startup called DeepSeek. That company now threatens to upend the world of artificial intelligence and the race for who will dominate it.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
Kevin, if we really are past that point, you know, of containment here, if we're off to the races, does it matter that this innovation happened in China by a Chinese company? I mean, isn't this bigger than that at this point?
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
In a way, it kind of follows the normal progression of any new product, right? Like, at first it's expensive, and then more and more competition leads to innovation, the thing gets cheaper, everything becomes more democratized.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Saturday, President Trump declared tariffs of 25% on all goods from Canada and Mexico, with a partial carve-out for Canadian energy and oil exports. He also announced an additional 10% tariff on products coming in from China. The tariffs are set to take effect at 12.01 a.m.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
ET on Tuesday, and have raised concerns of an escalating trade war with America's largest trading partners. Those countries responded swiftly to Trump's announcement. The Canadian government detailed its own retaliatory 25% tariffs on more than $100 billion worth of U.S. goods, including everything from American-made honey, tomatoes, and whiskey to refrigerators and toilets.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
President Claudia Sheinbaum of Mexico said she would unveil her country's response on Monday, while China's Commerce Ministry promised to bring a legal case at the World Trade Organization and, quote, corresponding countermeasures. President Trump acknowledged on social media that his tariffs could cause, quote, some pain, but said it would be, quote, worth the price that must be paid.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
And in a new effort to tighten the immigration system, the Trump administration is ending temporary protected status for 300,000 Venezuelan migrants in the United States, according to government documents obtained by The Times. The move could make those migrants vulnerable to potential deportation in the coming months.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
The designation of temporary protected status was meant to protect migrants fleeing dangerous situations in their home countries. But Republican critics have said it allowed migrants to stay in the United States for much longer than intended. Today's episode was produced by Shannon Lin, Claire Tennesketter, Alex Stern, and Caitlin O'Keefe, with help from Will Reed.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
It was edited by Mark George and Chris Haxel, with help from Paige Cowett. Contains original music by Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittroweth. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
Okay, we're going to get to those questions of who this company is and how they did this. But I just first want to dig into the anatomy of the market panic. What are the real fears driving this?
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
Today, my colleague Kevin Roos, a tech columnist and the co-host of the podcast Hard Fork, on how DeepSeek caught us all off guard. It's Monday, February 3rd. Hi, Kevin. Hello.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
Yeah. And should I maybe be investing in balsa wood cars?
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
Kevin, it certainly seems that at least based on what DeepSeek is saying, it has managed to pull off a pretty impressive feat here. But I'm wondering, can we trust what the company says? Can we trust their claims about how they pulled this off?
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
Okay, so let's talk about those engineering techniques. I mean, how actually did DeepSeq do this? Make a chatbot on a shoestring budget, potentially, with second-rate chips?
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
And it occurs to me, Kevin, that this company was operating under a lot of constraints. And it sounds like that may have forced the engineers to think about how to tackle this problem differently. As in, it seems possible that not having these critical ingredients actually bred innovation.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
So, Kevin, how do the big American tech companies contend with that? I mean, what do they say to investors who are wondering about whether maybe these companies have been throwing money away when some of this work on these AI models could have been done much more cheaply?
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
So let's jump in. Kevin, how did this giant AI tech freakout begin? Tell us that story.
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
And for you, Kevin, I mean, obviously you've been covering this world for a very long time. Does that show you that more money doesn't necessarily mean more innovation in the world of AI where more money has been kind of a given, you know, as an assumption of what's needed? I mean, does it actually suggest that maybe smaller, as you said, scrappier startups could make huge gains in this world?
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
We'll be right back. Kevin, it sounds like DeepSeek has already or is about to really change the landscape of AI. And my question is, is that good? Like, for people like you and me, I mean, maybe you more than me, who use chatbots for consumers...
The Daily
China Challenges Silicon Valley for A.I. Dominance
Kevin, if this really is that important of a moment in the global AI arms race, how should we expect the United States to react? I mean, does the U.S. government just ban this thing? You know, we saw TikTok banned because it was owned by a Chinese company. Is that the move here?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroweth. This is The Daily. At the center of Trump's aggressive first week in office is a 39-year-old advisor, Stephen Miller. It's his ideas and ideology that have animated the president's unprecedented blitz of executive orders. Today, my colleague Jonathan Swan explains Miller's dramatic return to the White House and why his power has never been greater.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
We'll be right back. Jonathan, what did Miller do exactly during those four years to put himself in a position to more effectively execute his vision?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
Jonathan, it's not lost on me, obviously, that this guy who was made fun of at one point in Washington is now making friends in high places and really cultivating the kinds of allies that he needs. I mean, the richest guy in the world, for example, to make sure that he can wield his power efficiently. It sounds like he is actively trying to make up for strategic holes that may have been there.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
OK, but Jonathan, I think it's worth noting that just last week, Miller's strategy ran into something of a wall. This federal judge knocked down the executive order ending birthright citizenship. The judge said, I'm quoting here, I've been on the bench for over four decades. This is a blatantly unconstitutional order. Where were the lawyers when this decision was being made?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
So, okay, tell us how Miller got here. How did he arrive at the beliefs that are now, you know, defining these opening days and really shifting the country to the right, especially on immigration?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
So I'm wondering, does this mirror the sloppiness of the Muslim ban in the first term? Does it raise questions for you about whether Miller's four years of preparation did actually put him in a better position to execute his vision?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
OK, we're just at the start, obviously, of this administration. But when I think about what the likelihood of Miller having success here long term is, I have to ask about something that you mentioned earlier, which is the potential for moderating forces within Trump world, people that oppose some of his agenda. Do those people still exist? Are those forces still there?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
Donald Trump is the restraining force on Stephen Miller? Yeah. Really? How so?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
And how does Miller respond when Trump is not fully aligned with him, when they disagree?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
Jonathan, I have to say, just thinking about Miller's bio, that guy, the guy who kind of backs down from a fight, who concedes strategically, he's come a long way from the high schooler who, you know, was this strident ideological warrior who, in some cases, was starting fights to make a point, to go against the grain. He's a different person.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
On Sunday, the immigration crackdown that Miller helped craft continued to take shape. The president of Colombia said that his country had turned away military planes carrying Colombian deportees. He said Colombia would not accept any deportation flights from the United States until the Trump administration created a process to treat Colombian migrants with, quote, "...dignity and respect."
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
In response, Trump threatened a barrage of retaliatory measures against the country, including sanctions and 25% tariffs on all Colombian imports. Late Sunday night, the Colombian president, Gustavo Petro, backed down and agreed to let deportation flights into the country.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
The White House said in a statement that because the Colombian president had agreed to all of its terms, the tariffs and sanctions that Trump had threatened would be, quote, We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
Former South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem was sworn in as Homeland Security Secretary on Saturday, putting her in charge of the agency that's at the heart of Trump's immigration crackdown. The department runs Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Noem is a close Trump ally who was once seen as a potential running mate for the president.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
And on Sunday, Pete Hegseth was sworn in as defense secretary after overcoming a claim of sexual harassment and accusations of abusive behavior and public drunkenness. He was narrowly confirmed by the Senate over the weekend, with Vice President J.D. Vance casting the deciding vote after a 50-50 tie.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
The final vote was the slimmest margin for a defense secretary's confirmation since the position was created in 1947. Today's episode was produced by Mary Wilson, Jessica Chung, Nina Feldman, and Eric Krupke. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg with help from Paige Cowett. Fact Check by Will Peischel. Contains original music by Alishaba Etup and Marion Lozano. And was engineered by Chris Wood.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittroweth. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
And I have to imagine, Jonathan, I mean, he's in L.A., he's in Santa Monica. This is generally a kind of liberal environment. And he's going against the grain here. So there's a part of that that's about, you know, contradicting the people that are around him, the environment around him. It also just sounds like there's a piece of this that is really genuinely xenophobic. Yeah.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
Okay, he's proven right. He must be feeling pretty emboldened. What does he do next?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
The idea was broaden the tent. We can win elections if we bring Latinos into our coalition.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
I think a lot of us remember Stephen Miller from the first Trump term. But now that he's back, what do we need to know about who Miller has become and the role he's going to play this time around?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
Right. It sounds like they are betting at this point, Miller and Sessions, that while there is a consensus among the Republican establishment that this is the right way to go, that they actually know what voters care about and that this bill would not be popular with the base of voters that they're trying to win over.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
So this is a huge victory for Miller. Another instance in which it's him against the world in what you said was this kind of uphill battle. He comes out on top. And yet Republicans in his own party, it sounds like, are still swatting him away like a fly. I mean, he's still an outsider, even among conservatives at this point.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
It's interesting. It's like in Trump, Miller finds this ideological soulmate in a way and a guy who can really help move his vision from the fringes to the mainstream. And in Miller, Trump finds a workhorse who is willing to stay up all night and design a kind of campaign that appeals to voters.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
Okay, so Donald Trump obviously wins. How does Miller start to put his imprint on the first term?
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
It would be hard to overstate the impact of that policy. I mean, it literally reshaped the immigration system.
The Daily
Stephen Miller’s Return to Power
For Miller, it sounds like this first term is kind of a mixed bag, right? I mean, he has a lot of success, as you just said, in reshaping some of the rules of the game on the issue he cares most about, immigration. But at the same time, his lack of West Wing experience and know-how gets in the way of achieving his full vision.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitro-Eff. This is The Daily. Over the past week, President Trump avoided a trade war with Canada and Mexico, but he actively escalated one with China. That's because when it comes to domestic manufacturing, China has become more powerful than the United States, Japan, Germany, South Korea, and Britain combined.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
So, Keith, I want to talk about what Trump's answer to China's dominance has been, and that's tariffs, which I covered back when they started in 2018, when Trump put a slew of tariffs on China. The Biden administration continued a lot of them, added some new ones. And now Trump has just added a new 10 percent tariff on China, which went into effect last week. What is the goal of these tariffs?
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
It's an honor. It's a distinction you've earned.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
The idea is, in the case of China, tariffs are being used to achieve a really long-term goal, which is, as you said, the revival of American manufacturing. Perhaps another way of putting it is to achieve economic independence from China, our adversary.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
OK. So where we find you now is that a trade war between the U.S. and China escalated last week with Trump imposing new tariffs on China. And we thought this would be a good time to really try to understand the nature of this problem between the U.S. and China with one single number at the core.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
And what do you think the answer to that question is, Keith? I mean, you've been studying and reporting on China and trade for decades.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
But knowing how slow the U.S. is to act on all of these different fronts, it seems like a long shot, honestly, to imagine that the U.S. would be able to follow through on this kind of comprehensive approach. And in the meantime, tariffs could drag us into this protracted trade war that could raise prices on consumers.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
Keith, from what you're saying, there are a lot of economists and national security experts that have come around at this point to the idea that Chinese trade dominance is potentially a real problem. Why do you think it took so long? Why are we in this position now where we're potentially too far behind to even catch up?
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
The fact that that's shifted, that there's much more skepticism now about the trade relationship with China, how much credit can Trump take for that?
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
So you're there. Is China afraid of Donald Trump or do they feel at this point that they're so far ahead and were given a pass by the U.S. and its allies for so long that it's actually just too late for anyone to really challenge their place as what you said was the world's sole manufacturing superpower?
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
And just quickly explain for me why a $1 trillion trade surplus is such a big deal.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. In back to back rulings, federal courts threw a wrench in President Trump's plans to remake the government bureaucracy. On Friday, a federal judge ordered the White House to temporarily pause some parts of its attempt to shut down USAID, which distributes foreign aid, calling it, quote, unconstitutional and illegal.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
The ruling halts the plan to put 2,200 employees on administrative leave and recall all of the agency's workers who are overseas. Then, on Saturday, another federal judge temporarily blocked Elon Musk's team from accessing the payment systems at the Department of Treasury.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
The judge said giving so-called special government employees, like Musk, access to such highly sensitive information raises the risks of leaks and makes the financial system more vulnerable to hacking. If the Trump administration refuses to comply with the rulings, it could pose a serious test for America's rule of law.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
Today's episode was produced by Mary Wilson, Muj Zaydi, Claire Tennesketter, and Alex Stern, with help from Nina Feldman. It was edited by Lisa Chow. Contains original music by Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, and Rowan Nemisto, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. Special thanks to Paula Schumann and Larissa Anderson.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittroweth. See you tomorrow.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
We're going to get into how China's done that, but I just want to pause on Trump for a second here. Because what I'm hearing is that when Trump talks about China and the U.S. trade deficit, he's actually wrong to highlight it.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
Okay, so Trump has been complaining about this since the 1980s. But aren't there advantages to free trade? I'm thinking of lower prices for consumers, for example, which have come specifically from free trade with China.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
Today, my colleague Keith Bratcher explains why China's dominance as a trading partner has become such a threat to Trump's agenda and whether the United States will ever be able to catch up. It's Monday, February 10th.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
Got it. So that's the background here, just how reliant the U.S. is on China for things that we might need in a crisis. Now let's get into the trillion-dollar trade surplus.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
I think a lot of people might think of that Made in China label as being associated with some of the goods you already mentioned, toys and clothes, but not some of the more advanced products that, you know, you would think of as bringing a country to this level of dominance. Right.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
And why was China so keen on dominating an industry like the car industry?
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
So you have a bunch of reasons why you might want to be a juggernaut in the car industry. Can you tell me how exactly China went from exporting barely any cars to now being the world's number one exporter of cars? How did that happen?
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
Keith, I knew you were one of the OG economics reporters at The New York Times, but in preparing for this conversation, I learned a few amazing facts about you that I just want to share.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
The banks didn't care about making money?
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
OK, so we understand the money part. You have banks pouring investment into this industry, in part because the government is encouraging them to do so. What about the other ingredients you mentioned, the people and the regulations?
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
You've covered dozens of trade deals, including writing 150 times about the negotiation of NAFTA alone. I want to call you the Bill Nye of trade. I don't know if they'll let me do that. You've been reporting in China for 23 years. You were one of the very few American journalists who stayed there through the pandemic. And for some reason, this is your first time on the show. So welcome, Keith.
The Daily
China Seems Unstoppable. Trump Thinks Otherwise.
It's amazing. The approach you're describing is so comprehensive. You're really witnessing this authoritarian regime pushing on all the levers available to it to achieve this aggressive goal. And it seems as though having complete control over so many elements of society was in a way key to China's success.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
But I just I do think that there is a motive now to figure out how to make this work just because you want to be able to sell to American consumers.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Yeah, Gina, go. You're in retaliation land.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
For Australia, these tariffs are not unexpected, but let me be clear, they are totally unwarranted. The system of global trade anchored on the United States that Canada has relied on since the end of the Second World War is over.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
I just want to throw a wrench into things, which is I hear you that it is a well-designed, potentially, strategy for retaliation, but we just don't know how effective it's going to be. Because, for example, these tariffs that are hitting the auto manufacturers have been... a big deal for a long time now. These executives are not happy. They have been complaining about it.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
They've been going to the White House. What we've seen is that Trump has been surprisingly resistant to changing course, even though there have been big reactions on Wall Street and by executives. And so I'm not sure we know that these tech executives kind of going to Trump and complaining is going to really make a
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Part of the problem for China, and this is something that's been discussed on the show, is just that because of the trade imbalance between the two countries, China just buys so much less from the United States than it sells. Right. So there actually are fewer products for China to put tariffs on than, you know, for the U.S.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Like that's the nature of the very trade imbalance that Trump is trying to address.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
So the best case for North America and specifically for the two trading partners, for Canada and Mexico, is that the tariffs that were already announced that include a lot of goods go away or at least are significantly reduced so that there is a seriously preferential treatment to these two countries while, you know, Trump does whatever he wants with the rest of the world.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
So that you see a real strengthening, as we talked about, of this North American trading bloc, which would hugely benefit all three countries. And you basically keep things the way they've been, you know, free trade in the North America lives. That's the best case. The worst case is, at least in Mexico, a recession and a really damaging one.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
I mean, we're talking about a country that depends heavily on trade with the United States. Millions of jobs depend on it. This is not something that can be easily recovered by going to other markets. And so you could really see devastation across the board. We're talking about people potentially regressing into poverty from the middle class.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
That's an unfair advantage, Peter. You write a book, you get to say it.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
I mean, I was going to say, Michael, that you might forgive the three of us. I think we're all either current or former business reporters on this roundtable for being really worked up about all of this. You might think that we're a little bit excited because this is our sandbox that we play in, but It's a huge deal.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
It's not just a huge deal for markets, which we're seeing a massive reaction in global markets. But it's a huge deal for the way that Americans live their lives. As Peter is saying, we're talking about a total reconfiguration of the trade order. And that is not just an econ nerd concern.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
While this is a tragedy, it is also the new reality.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
Well, OK, it's not totally clear exactly what the aim is here. But as Peter just said, it sort of seems as though a big motive of these tariffs is to shut down Asia as a source of manufactured goods. And the tariffs that were announced on Wednesday did not include Mexico and Canada. Notably and obviously by design. Right.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
There is this sense among some of the analysts that I've been talking to that the goal here, or at least a potential effect, is to strengthen the North American trading bloc. So where do you go if it's not Vietnam or China? You potentially go to Mexico. I mean, obviously, Trump's ideal is that you go to the United States.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
But even if you don't go to the United States, a potential outcome here is that there is more incentive for manufacturers to make their stuff in Mexico, in the United States or in Canada. And there's a potential gain there for the North American trading block, which is that It gets preferential treatment.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
We don't know if that's what's going to happen, but it certainly seems as though, as you said, Michael, the design might lead us there.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
No, for weeks he's been smacking Mexico and Canada in the face. I mean, there are 25% tariffs that went into effect on Thursday on finished vehicles. We expect the same tariffs to go into effect on auto parts in the beginning of May. There are tariffs on steel and aluminum. That really hits Canada hard. It also hits Mexico.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
There are 25% tariffs on all goods that don't fall within the USMCA, the free trade agreement between the three countries. This is a huge economic burden on these countries and a big, big hit to their trading relationship with the United States.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
And so it would seem as though this potential world in which the trading bloc of North America is strengthened also comes with real downsides for the two major trading partners in that arrangement.
The Daily
Fear and Fury: The Fallout From Trump’s Tariffs
I mean, I think, you know, we're seeing a lot of uncertainty. That's true. And uncertainty does cause paralysis. But I think that we have to keep in mind that America is just the most important consumer economy in the world and companies are already trying to figure out how. to secure their duty free access to that market, you know, as much as they can. And I agree that uncertainty reigns.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroweth. This is The Daily. On Wednesday night, a passenger jet and a helicopter collided midair over Washington, D.C. It was the deadliest plane crash in the United States in more than 20 years. Today, my colleague Emily Steele explains what we know about what went wrong. It's Friday, January 31st. Emily, it's 5.30 p.m.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
Emily, thank you. Thank you. In a news conference on Thursday, President Trump suggested that efforts to diversify the ranks of the FAA and hire people with disabilities were to blame for the accident in Washington.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
When pushed on how he arrived at that conclusion, the president said he had no evidence but was relying on, quote, common sense. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Thursday, three of President Trump's cabinet nominees were questioned before the Senate.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
Tulsi Gabbard, Trump's pick for director of national intelligence, faced sharp questions about her stances on Syria and the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
She refused to denounce Edward Snowden, who leaked classified information about government surveillance programs in 2013, eliciting concern from senators on both sides of the aisle.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
The tense hearing suggested Gabbard would face a challenging confirmation battle. In his hearing, Kash Patel, Trump's choice to run the FBI, tried to evade questions about whether he would investigate officials on a list of his perceived enemies and promised not to launch politically motivated investigations.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
He sought to distance himself from Trump, going so far as to suggest that he disagreed with the president's decision to pardon the January 6th rioters.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
And in his second hearing for health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. defended his views on vaccinations in a tense session that featured shouting matches and a senator in tears.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
By the end, it was unclear whether Kennedy had persuaded one senator whose vote could be key to his future, the Louisiana Republican Bill Cassidy.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
Cassidy's a doctor, and he expressed deep concern about what he called Kennedy's, quote, passive undermining confidence in vaccines. And he wondered whether Kennedy could change.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
Kennedy can only afford to lose three Republican votes to win final confirmation. Later today, you can catch a new episode of The Daily right here. Michael Barbaro speaks with Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan, and Charlie Savage about President Trump's plan to make a more powerful presidency permanent. Today's episode was produced by Aastha Chaturvedi and Carlos Prieto.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
It was edited by Devin Taylor. Contains original music by Dan Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marion Lozano. And was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brumberg and Ben Landsberg of Wonderly. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittrow. See you on Monday.
The Daily
What We Know About the Plane Crash
Yeah, Emily, I saw a video of the crash and you just see this tiny dot of this helicopter flying towards the airplane and then they collide and there's this massive explosion. It's terrifying.
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OK, I've covered plane crashes before the Boeing 737 MAX accident specifically. And so I know it takes a while for all the details to come out. But what do we know at this point about what went wrong here? How did this happen?
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So the helicopter pilot says, yes, I see this other plane. But in fact, the plane that they see is not the one they're headed to a direct collision with.
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Hmm. So potentially these pilots on the helicopter had visibility issues.
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Oh, wow. So maybe they weren't even supposed to be there in the first place. But what about the air traffic controller? I mean, isn't this the person who is literally supposed to be the eyes on the sky?
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on Thursday, not even 24 hours after this awful plane crash in Washington. And we're talking to you because you've spent a lot of time investigating aviation safety. Can you just explain what exactly happened on Wednesday night?
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In other words, the air traffic controller intervened, but he didn't do so in a proactive or aggressive enough way given the conditions, given what was happening. Exactly. And are there any theories about why that didn't happen in this case? No.
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You're saying you have one air traffic controller who's assigned essentially to two really important tasks here. They're monitoring not just the planes, but also the helicopters.
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Emily, it certainly sounds like the idea of one air traffic controller with two really big jobs in a really busy airspace could have been a factor here. I mean, could that explain a lot of what happened here?
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We'll be right back. Emily, you said there have been growing holes in the system of aviation safety that made a disaster like what we saw on Wednesday possible, maybe even foreseeable. I know this is something you and our colleague Sydney Ember have reported on in the past. Remind us of what you found.
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And Emily, after your investigation came out, did anything change? Did the system get better?