Kelsey McKinney
Appearances
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
The reason that Celeste and Charles got divorced is that Celeste wanted their house to be at 81 degrees Fahrenheit all the time, which is 27 degrees Celsius.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Hot. That's hot, hot, hot. She was like, I'm just cold all the time. What? Eat some soup, Celeste. That's not. And her husband, Charles, wanted their house to be a normal fucking temperature. Yeah. Like not even cold. He was just like, I want it to be not 27 degrees Celsius in here. Do you believe that this is the real reason why they got divorced?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I love that theory. This is like, it's ridiculous to be like, we got divorced because she wants our house to be super, super hot. But it's like the only thing either of them ever says, right? Like that is the party line. They're like, we got divorced because of this.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Okay. So imagine Jane's house, right? Jane's our widow. And then right on the right of her house is Celeste. Okay. And on the left of Jane's house is a woman named Muffy.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Sure. And Muffy and Celeste are best friends.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
All right. I see. Okay. And Jane, our old lady, lives in the middle, just watching Muffy and Celeste, like, walk back and forth to each other's houses, carrying wine, carrying snacks, you know, gabbing, gabbing, gabbing. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
We've already talked about how when you see strangers or people that you only know some details of, you kind of, like, fill in details that you have made up. Sure. What do you think that you might do with this friendship? Oh. Oh, they're in love, obviously. That's probably what I would do, too. I would be like, she left her husband for Muffy, right?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I love that premise. In Jane's mind, she's like, Celeste and Muffy are the kind of friends who, like, they drink, they watch Below Deck, they talk about how they wish they could have a yacht. They don't know anything about each other. They don't like each other actually.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I love this. Jane believes this because she really likes Muffy and she does not like Celeste. Uh-huh. Celeste is always wearing like one sweater and then she's wearing like another sweater tied around her shoulders because she's so cold. Celeste is like the kind of woman that's always wearing a lot of those like big bangles and like has a really sleek bob.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Totally. Yes. The real reason that Jane doesn't like Celeste, though, is that Celeste will not stop talking about her damn fig. Excuse me?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Is that what it is? Great thought. Wrong. It's not the fruit. It's not figs the tree. It is a sculpture, a bronze cast sculpture of a really big fig that is split in half.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
every detail is more bizarre than the next kelsey what the fuck this is my i know try to try to picture this fig right it's made of bronze it's split in half it's very very large like think like sculpture garden large like each half of the fig is like the size of a person and it's metal and shiny And this fig slash artwork is titled The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Oh, okay.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
It is a, quote, statement on gender.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
What is the statement? We don't really know. Do you have any idea what this statement could be?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
You think that that is the statement on gender? I mean, that's the only thing I've ever heard.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Perfect. Yeah, let's start at the beginning.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
The real thing is that Celeste, like, this fig sculpture is currently in Charles' backyard. Charles. Her ex-husband.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Exactly. Yeah. So Celeste, like, loved living by the fig. She loved looking at it. She loved when it was, like, reflecting the sun or something. And so she wanted to take it in the divorce.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
But because it was like so heavy, like it's made of it's giant and made of metal. So you need like a whole group of guys and like construction equipment to move it. OK, like that might be why she didn't take it. Or maybe she didn't take it because like Charles held on to it forever, like out of spite. But the fig is at Charles house and she wants the fig to be with her. Okay. As is her right.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane knows all of these things because it's all Celeste ever talks about. And Jane does not care about this.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane's like, I had real problems when I was younger that weren't, where is my giant fig? Why isn't it at my fancy house? Yeah. So Jane dislikes her neighbor Celeste because of this fig problem and because she is filled with a whimsy that only rich people can have. Right. But she likes Muffy. Right. Right. Because she's like, Muffy is kind. She has a really big laugh.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And she never, ever, ever talks about figs.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Right. You're like the friend that I like must have been like trapped in a witch's spell in order to be friends with this other woman who I dislike. Jane also likes Muffy because Muffy started dating this like younger hot man. And the younger hot man does all of their yard work with no shirt. Lovely. Lovely stuff. He's like sipping from the garden hose, throwing his hair back.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
He's always like hammering stuff. Who knows what. He like has a push lawnmower. He's out there for hours. And Jane is like a little bit of a horn dog. So she's like, I appreciate this. Like, thank you for having this hot boyfriend for me. Very kind and thoughtful. Very nice. Love Muffy. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And Muffy reminds Jane of like a younger her because Muffy also like wants her house to be really nice, wants her garden to be really nice. And in particular, Muffy has a massive herb garden of like potted plants that she babies.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
She, like, brings them inside in the winter. She prunes them every day. She waters them constantly. She, like, never lets her young, hot boyfriend touch them because they have to be, like, perfect. Okay. So one day, Jane's out. She's on her little morning walk right around the neighborhood. She runs into Muffy. She's like, what's up, Muffy? Like, what's going on with you?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And Muffy's like, oh, my God, me and my hot boyfriend are going on vacation to Italy or whatever to be beautiful for two weeks.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And Jane in her head is like, that's so sad that your hot boyfriend is leaving and I won't get to see him. But out loud, she's like, that's so nice. I'm so happy for you. Jane is also like, it's August. So it's really hot outside. And she's like concerned because she knows that Muffy loves her herb garden. So she's like, oh, do you want me to water it while you're gone? Sure. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And Muffy is like, oh my God, you're so sweet. But no, I already asked Celeste to do it. So you don't need to worry about it at all. Okay. Are you worried? I'm worried. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane is like, okay, no problem. But then Muffy goes uptown and like, have you ever watched Basil when it doesn't get watered?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Yes. And if it's like outside, it also like just like starts to droop really badly. Right. And the leaves like go yellow and then it's like very gross and sad. And it's summer and it's hot. And Jane is watching out her window while Muffy is out of town that within a single 24 hour period, the basil is like wilted over.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
It's just not. If you're Jane, do you go water the basil?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane is also full of spite because Jane is like, you know what? I offered to water it. And Muffy explicitly told me, no, Celeste has got it. And so she watches out her window as the cilantro withers and the mint burns and the thyme becomes crunchy and the rosemary gets all fried and everything burns. Christ. It's awful. You're not intervening at any point in this.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
You're just going to watch the herb garden turn to dust.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Yeah, I think that's a really good idea, except that Jane can't talk to Celeste because if she tries to talk to her at all, she just talks about the fig again. So there's like no point. And Jane has really had it up to here with the fig. So yeah, when I first heard this story, I was like, of course you go water the herb garden. But the more I think about it, the more I'm like, no, I'm so petty.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And like, if I don't like the friend that's supposed to water it, like it's just an herb garden.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane waits. She does not water the garden. It all dies. At the end of two weeks, Muffy comes home and Jane is like pettily like sitting by the window because she is like, Muffy's going to freak, right? She's like, there's going to be some kind of blow up. They're going to yell like they'll never be friends again. And then Muffy will be my friend. Delicious.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
But instead, Muffy just like sees the herb garden and then goes inside. Okay. And then like a few days later, Jane sees the hunky boyfriend out there just like pulling out all the dead herbs.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
So she's like, she's like sad. Jane's like, this is very sad. The herbs are all dead. She's like, but also Celeste has not gone over to Muffy's house at all since Muffy got back. So she's like, maybe, maybe my evil plan is working. Yes. So perhaps some curt text messages were exchanged. What do you imagine was exchanged?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I love that. I imagine that this is what happened. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jane has no idea. She doesn't know what's happening via text message. And she doesn't really see either of them out the next few days. So she's like, I don't know what's going on. My neighbors are maybe fighting. Hopefully they're never going to be friends again. But like, I don't know.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
She goes for her walk and she sees Celeste. You hate Celeste famously, but you want to know what's going on with Muffy. Do you like stop and try to talk to her? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, fake as shit. Yeah, 100%.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Smooth as eggs, buddy. Jane is like, does that even have time to consider whether she wants to talk to Celeste or not? Because the thing is, you don't have free will with Celeste. Celeste is coming to talk to you. That's just like how she is because she has things to say. Sure. Sure, sure, sure. Girl. Yeah. And Jane is like, yes. Yes and yes. This does not stop Celeste.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Celeste is like, yeah, you know, he also, like, demanded that I come get the fig from his house and pay him the original cost of it and that I only have two weeks to do it or he's going to sell it. Okay, that is harsh. Jane is like, I don't care. Yeah. In her heart, she's like, I hate Celeste. I hate this stupid fig. Like, this is not worth my time. She's like, have you talked to Muffy?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And Celeste is like, no, but trying to talk more about her fig. And Jane is like, goodbye, Celeste.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I don't get it at all. Jane has forgotten all about this conversation. But at the end of two weeks, suddenly there is a big truck in front of her house with a bunch of big, muscly men. And on the back of the truck is the fig on like a pallet. Okay. Okay. It's a comment on gender. Okay. Yes. And Jane is like, oh, my God. I'm going to have to look at this fig all the time.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry to embarrass you, but your book, The Rachel Incident, was one of my favorite books that I read last year. I loved it. I thought it was so great. And there's a lot of gossip in that book. And I wanted to ask you just like how you think about gossip in fiction, both like creating it and what role it plays in stories.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane is outside. She's watching... This man, you know, greeting the construction workers. He's wearing a hard hat. He has a flip board. He takes the hard hat off and she's like, oh, my God, hot boyfriend. And then hot boyfriend is pointing not at Celeste's yard, but at Muffy's.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane is like, this is crazy. She's like, obviously I'm outside. I'm paying attention. I'm eavesdropping. She watches like a forklift, you know, raise the metal fig and start to like drive it toward Muffy's house. And at this point, Celeste comes like running out of her house and she's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have the wrong house. My house is over there. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And the construction workers are like, you know, they're like looking at their paper. They're like, well, no, like the address we have is that address. We don't have your address. And Celeste is like, no, no, no, no, no. It's my fig. I picked it out. She's like, you know, rattling off stats like it would be on like a fucking gallery thing where she's like, the artist is this.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
He was born here this year. These are the dimensions of the fig. Like this is the year it was created. These are the dimensions of the fig. Yeah. The construction workers are like, listen, lady, we don't care about your fig facts. We were hired to drop them off over here. Uh-huh. And then they begin to drive the fig into Muffy's backyard. Muffy bought the figs.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Huge news! Our Dowager Queen, Kelsey McKinney, wrote a New York Times best-selling book of beautiful essays about gossip. It's called You Didn't Hear This From Me, mostly true notes on gossip, and I am obsessed. It's about how we use gossip to learn about ourselves. It's about Britney Spears and Weston Caleb and Gilgamesh and Picasso. It's so fun.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And not to be biased, but I kind of think it's pretty excellent. It's out right now in a hardback and a super sexy audiobook, which Kelsey narrates. You can buy wherever you buy your books. You can also go to KelseyMcKinneyBook.com to see all retailers.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
This creates chaos. Celeste is like on the phone. Jane assumes she's on the phone with Charles and Celeste is like yelling, right? She's like, you snake, you absolute snake. Like, you know, I only cared about the figs. Meanwhile, the construction workers are like, you know, checking up on a concrete platform. They pour God knows when for the fig to be on Celeste.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Muffy comes out of the house and Celeste's tone, like, immediately changes. And she begins to, like, plead. She's like, Muffy, you know I love these. Like, Charles is the enemy. You cannot collude with him. She's like, pick me, choose me, give Fig to me.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Muffy is standing with her arms like cross and she's like, Celeste, do you remember what I asked you to do when I went on vacation? And Celeste is like, water your herb garden? And Muffy's like, yes. And you didn't do that. And Celeste is like, yes, I did. I went every night late at night and I watered them.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And Muffy is like, they all died. And Celeste is like, well, I don't. And Muffy is just like, I can't like I'm not having this conversation anymore. Like we're done here. And Celeste is like, but what about my fig? Like, I love it so much. And Muffy's like, well, I love figs, too. And I bought the fig right this way, gentlemen. And she shows the construction workers where to put them.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I love it! At this point, Celeste freaks out. She's like in front of the forklift. She has to be restrained by the hot boyfriend. Jane is like, this is the most interesting thing to happen to this neighborhood in years.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Wow. After this whole event, the next day, the hot boyfriend like sets up a giant tent in the backyard. And Jane is like, this is terrible. Like now I can't see the hot boyfriend anymore. I have no idea what's going on over there. Right. Like he's inside the tent.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And then there's like a week where nothing happens. Yeah. And this is where Jane realizes she has like a big problem because the big fight, this like huge blow up fight, happened very conveniently in her front yard at full volume. Sure. But also she hears people in the neighborhood talking about like Instagram posts, next door posts. And Jane doesn't know how to get to those things.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Oh, because she's no lady. What do you think she should do here? Call her son. She really wants to know what's going on.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane is like, this is petty drama. You know who loves petty drama? Teens. So she's like, I'll invite my teenage granddaughter over to spend the weekend. I'll get her takeout food and then I'll tell her this whole saga. And then she'll probably help me find out what's going on online. Oh, delicious. I love it. Lovely bonding. This works perfectly. The teen comes over, she eats her takeout.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
She's like, well, what's happening now? And Jane's like, I don't know. It's all online and I can't see it. The teen within like minutes has all of this stuff pulled up, right? Like she has like the Instagrams up. She has posts up. She begins to show Jane specific posts about this. The first post she shows is from the artist who made the fig. His widow has posted a photo of the fig.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
With a caption that's like, this fig is by my late husband. And the location of the piece as the private collection of Celeste's last name.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
There's more, baby. It's wheels within wheels. Celeste is posting like an endless amount of like... Photos of her fig, posts about how sad she is about her fig, posts about how Muffy like stole her fig.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
The granddaughter is like, we don't need to look at this page because it's just like Muffy's boyfriend posting thirst traps. And Jane's like, what's a thirst trap? And then her granddaughter shows her one of the posts and she's like, oh, I know. I understand. Yes. I love these. Thank you. I love it. Muffy's posts are mostly about her hot boyfriend.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
But there is also a picture that's like a flyer for what is titled her herb garden relaunch party. Oh, my God. And it has like a date and a time and it has a picture of the fig on it. These people are fucked.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
This is what happens when you have too much money. It's like none of these problems are real.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane's granddaughter is like, we have to go to the party. We're going to the herb garden relaunch party. And Jane's like, well, we weren't invited. And the teen granddaughter is like, but it's posted on Instagram publicly. Like, we can go. Do you think that that's true? Do you think they can go?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jane is like, I'm old fashioned. We're not showing up at this woman's house without being invited to the party. Sure. She's like, but I will call Muffy and ask her. And the granddaughter's like, great. So Jane calls Muffy and she's like, Muffy, what's up with this giant tent in your backyard? Yeah. Because there is a huge tent there. And Muffy's like, oh, my God, I haven't seen you. That's crazy.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Like, where have you been? And Jane's like, I've been at my house. Like, I'm always at my house. And Muffy's like, oh, okay. Well, so sorry I haven't seen you. But I'm having this huge herb garden party. I'm relaunching my herb garden tomorrow. If you want to swing by, I would love to have you. And Jane's like, great.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
They go over there. The party is like beautiful. The tent has been removed from the backyard. And now Jane can see that like a huge transformation has taken place. Like the new herb garden has been planted. It's like twice as big. It has little like handmade signs. Muffy has made herby cocktails. There's like little appetizers. It's like very lovely little party.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And also there is now art everywhere. Like not only are the figs there and like lit from below with little spotlights, there's also like a ton of other garden themed art. There's like a giant rosemary sprig and like a concrete trowel sculpture and like all this shit.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Jade is like, let's go stand next to Muffy, like to her granddaughter. So they're like talking to Muffy and Muffy is like talking about all of this art with the air of someone who has like bought art for decades, right? Like she's like, oh, I know all about art. Like I love buying these things.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
It's like very much one of those things where she's like talking about like the finances of buying art more than the actual art. She's talking about like dealers and acquisitions and purchase prices and like all of this stuff. All right. Okay. And Jane is just like, what is going on? This is crazy. At this point, Celeste shows up. Uh-huh. She is dressed beautifully. Overdressed, one might say.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And she goes up directly to Muffy. And she's like, how much did you pay for the thing? I will buy it off of you.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
$50,000. What? Isn't that like a nurse's income? Yes. It's like more than a teacher bakes.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
They look like balls. Buffy is like, no. Like, I like the figs. I paid for them. I had this whole, like, reinforced concrete platform built so that they could sit on it. Like, I'm not selling them. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Guess who else is here at this party? It's Celeste's ex-husband. And his much younger wife who likes an even temperature. Yes. He comes over and he's like, Celeste, stop it.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I gave you two weeks and you didn't buy them. Like, you had the first option. I don't know what you're doing here. And Celeste freaks out. She's like, you stole my fig. You stole everything. And Charles, like, kind of sighs and is like, I don't understand where this is coming from. Like, I'm the one who bought the figs. You never even liked the sculpture.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Mm-hmm. We're almost at the end. What do you think? How are you feeling?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Like this woman has been going on and on and on about these fucking figs for a year.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Celeste's ex-husband is like, it was only like after we got divorced that she started to care about it.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
And Celeste is like, this isn't true. Like, they're going back and back and forth. They are now having this fight publicly, which means that this is the point where we find out that it was not about the house temperature. Okay. What was it about, Kelsey? Thank you for asking. It is about the fact that Charles made a series of very, very bad investments.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
He put most of their money into an eco dance resort. And he also put a lot of money into some kind of omnidirectional treadmill for VR video games. OK, both of these things sound stupid because they are. And so neither of them took off. And so the thing is, these people were no longer rich. They were house poor.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
So like when she asked for a divorce, she used her settlement money to buy this new house in the neighborhood, expecting there would be more money down the road. And then there was like no more money. So it's not that she ever wanted the fig. The fig was like a pawn. It's like a pettiness prop. She wants it because she wants to sell it, to have money, to hurt Charles.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Bingo. What she was trying to do is figure out how much Muffy paid for it so that she could then get half that money from Charles. So at this point, she turns to Muffy and she's like, just tell me how much you paid for it. Like, did you pay $50,000? Did you pay $75,000? Did you pay $100,000? Like... What did you pay for this fig? Holy fuck. Muffy's like, oh, no, I paid ten thousand dollars. Wow.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
A real a real steal. These figs. Celeste loses her mind because she's like he gave it to Muffy for cheap to get rid of it.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
We're at the very end. How do you feel? Whose side are you on?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
That's extremely funny to me because it's just like, ah, opulence, ah, trash.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
It's also like Victorian, the loss of a family fortune.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Whose side are you on? Who do you like still?
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Do you want the final updates I have? Yes. Very final. The very final updates I have for you are that after all of this like bickering, Jane realized that she was like kind of in no man's land between two sides of a war. Right. Between Celeste and Muffy. And she kind of realized when this happened, she was like, oh, maybe I didn't really ever like Muffy. Maybe I just liked her hot boyfriend.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Right. Like maybe I didn't even really want to be her friend either. Maybe they deserve each other. And so she's like, you know what? It's time for me to move. And so Jane sold her house for a huge profit and she moved and she never had to think about any of these people ever again. And now Jane is rich. And now Jane is kind of rich.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
She's like, that's enough. Goodbye to the hot boyfriend.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
The schemes, the schemes. Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight to have you.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679-GOSSIP. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at normal gossip.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
You can follow Kelsey on all social media at McKinney Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujon Laughlin, Ozzy Linus Goodman, and Jay Toll Vieira. Justin Ellis is Defectors project editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors business guys. Alex Sujan Laughlin is Defector's Supervising Producer. Tom Ley is our Editor-in-Chief. Abigail Siegel is our Intern.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Dan McQuaid runs our Merchster, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. And thank you to Rachel Hampton, Brandon Jensen, Sabrina Imler, Dave McKenna, Chris Thompson, Heather Chen, Ray Rotto, David Roth, Catherine Hsu, Jasper Wang, Israel Daramola, and Patrick Redford for your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Carrie, and remember, you did not hear this from me.
Normal Gossip
It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today, I am so excited to have with me a long-distance friend, Caroline O'Donohue. Wow, that's cool. Wow. Also, I love it. She was born in Cork, Ireland, and she currently lives in London. Caroline, welcome. Hello.
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Oh, you can't move your beautiful shy child like in her final year of school. You're going to make her make new friends? That's not fair.
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Paul? I don't know. I don't know what names are English, Caroline. I thought you were going to say like Edward or something. I don't know. What are the kings named? Henry? Harry?
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Yeah. So he's like, do you want to lift into school? I guess this makes sense because lords famously have land. Yeah. You can't have land in the middle of the city.
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I'm so excited to be here. You have no idea. This is fantastic. Caroline, will you start me off with the classic first question and tell me what your relationship with gossip is?
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
she's the Lord now. That's so beautiful. You know what? She deserves it. She deserves it. She did the boot work, you know, she did it. She went to Facebook. She got a husband. Wow. It's like extremely funny. Yeah.
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
to think about this from the perspective of like all the other rich girls who had a crush on him yes oh my god why is he driving her why is he driving her just like fuming when they get engaged right like and like especially if like no one knew as well being like who even is she that girl he drove to school like serious she doesn't even talk Wow. Caroline, thank you for bringing me this story.
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I love it. It's so beautiful. Okay, my story is less happy, more chaos. Do you still want to hear it?
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
I'm going to call our friend of a friend today. We're going to call her Jane. And Jane has had like a nice full life. She got married. She worked on the early internet with her husband. She was like a career woman in the 80s, right? Like big shoulder pads, even bigger hair.
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
She and her husband, they had two kids. They grew up. The kids got married. They had kids themselves. Her husband died, which was terrible. And it was like very hard. And she hasn't moved on, but she's kept on living. And this whole entire life that she's lived, she lived in one single house. Okay. Okay. Do you have any experience like living in a place and watching it change around you?
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
Yes. That is basically what has happened to Jane, but in slow motion. Right. She moved into this house. It stayed the same. It's like a relic to her taste. Meanwhile, the whole neighborhood has turned over. Right. Her friends moved out. All the cute little houses were torn down. More and more of the cars in her neighborhood are like fancy luxury ass cars. Yeah.
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
But she's also like looking around and she's like, this is crazy. Like my house is now the smallest and cheapest one in the neighborhood. Like everything else is concrete and expensive because it's been rebuilt. I see. Yes. And she realized this really concretely because she got a new neighbor. Her new neighbor is named Celeste. Celeste is, like, in her 40s.
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It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue
She's beloved by everyone in the neighborhood. And Jane knows this because Celeste used to live in a different house in the same neighborhood. She moved into a different house because she and her husband got divorced.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
So I think for Tom Sandoval, it's like, if I'm Tom Sandoval's publicist, which like, You would have to pay me so, so, so, so, so much money to do that job because it's immoral and also insane. But this is a really good placement for him because it's like he's on TV. He can't really get himself into that much trouble. Yeah. And so he's just like wandering around the castle.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Now, the survivor players are really strategic, right? Like they are always really strategic. And that's kind of how the survivor game is played, right? It's like four-dimensional chess that everyone is playing at all times, which just like creates... And so what's kind of funny to me about traders is you have the survivors and someone like Wes, who's a challenge guy, right?
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
You have people who have come from competition reality shows, and they're trying to play eight-dimensional chess at all times. And that works when everyone around you is also playing eight-dimensional chess. Right.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
the problem with the traitors is that you have boston rob and carolyn playing this chess game and you have like gabby windy in there who's not playing chess at all right and she's just like sitting there and so it's like you can't it makes it really hard to fight her though because it's Like, you really don't know what her next move is because she's not playing a strategic game.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
She's playing a, like, emotion-based game.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
So they call themselves the Bambis because they all have big eyes, which I think is incredible and beautiful. And I think they're also kind of playing a game where it's like everyone assumes we are dumb, right? And so that is like, we're just going to embrace that and that's fine.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
What's funny, at least in the episodes that have aired when we're recording this right now, is Gabby's been right several times and then she's been talked out of it by other people, right? So that's kind of funny because I'm like, you need to trust yourself more, girl, right? Like you were on it and then someone was like, no, no, no, no, no, Gabby. No, no, no. You don't know anything.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And it's like, well... They're wrong. That person was wrong, which we can see as viewers. So I think alliances in general are really smart for gossip. This is part of why the Survivor players do so well is that when you are in an alliance, you can gather gossip and bring it together. And then you have more ears, right, which helps you make conclusions faster. And it also gives you a voting block.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Part of what all of these games require is knowledge of who's voting for what when you head into the roundtable, right? And you can see the survivor players doing that, right? They're circulating really fast to try and ask people like, what are you thinking? What are you feeling? And they're counting is what they're doing.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
They're trying to be like, okay, so then how many votes do you need for a majority? And it's like, if you know that everyone's votes are split, then you need fewer votes to have a majority, right? And so I don't think the Bambis are doing that, like quite obviously. But I do think the Bambis are like vibes based. Like they're like, I'm getting a bad vibe from you.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And the thing is, in traders, that's equally as good information as anything else because you have no information. But it's mostly an exercise in groupthink, which is part of what I love about it. So it is intertwined with gossip why we love a show like Traitors, right? It's the same reason that you love a show like Survivor.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Like, the reason I titled that chapter Knowledge is Power is because there's an idol that exists in some seasons of Survivor where you can, if you have the Knowledge is Power idol, you can steal someone else's idol just by saying, I know that Rachel has an immunity idol. Right. And then you get to just take it.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And I think about that a lot about how like these games teach us to behave and how we watch them with the hope that if you know enough, you can control the future, right? Like we all watch the traitors and say like these idiots, right? If I were in there, I would do it totally differently. Yeah.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And the reality is, like, no, you wouldn't because you wouldn't know who the traitors are if you were in there. You would be in the same darkness as everyone else. And, like, that's a really fascinating aspect of the way that we talk about these games is we're trying to teach ourselves how to avoid these same fates.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Yeah, I think it is.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Hello, Rachel. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be back.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I personally love
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Yeah, my first book was much smaller than this book, first off, right? I had a smaller advance. It was a debut novel. I didn't have nearly as big of a platform for it. And so I didn't really do any press for it. Like we got a couple of reviews and people read it and I was so happy about that. But I didn't do any interviews about that book, basically. maybe one or two here or there.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And it was also the summer of 2021. And so we were still not going anywhere. And so I kind of naively going into this book was like, no problem, right? Chill. I've done it before. I know how to play this game. Easy. And this is a totally different book, right? I've been doing tons of interviews because...
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I miss you. I miss you too. We haven't been on Zoom together in like at least a week, which is just insufferable and impossible. We cannot be expected to do that again.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
As we know, the topic of gossip is one that almost everyone wants to talk about almost all the time, which is great.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I'm really grateful to have done it, but it means that I have been in the mines and trapped away from you, doing interviews and preparing stuff and making a tour run of show and all of these little pieces that I think feel really separate from the writing of the book, which is really interesting because I think when you think about creative careers...
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And when you don't have one, you think about output, right? We think about like how many podcasts come out. You don't think about all the stuff that goes in before you get to do that. And so in a book, it's kind of the opposite, right? You spend all of this time making the product.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And then once the product is done, you have to completely pivot into just pitching it, which is a totally different skill.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
It's funny you say that because I don't know that I knew that before I published my novel. Like, I don't know that I ever read a novel except for maybe, like, the – Mm-hmm. And I would tell people like, well, none of it is true. And also like all of it is true. I've had every emotion in that book. Right. And so at an emotional level, it's real.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
In terms of the events, none of it's real, which is, I think, really complicated. Like it feels uncomfortable to be made to feel something based on nothing. Right.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I think they're less personal, honestly. I think a lot of the questions I got asked about the novel were personal questions. It was about my upbringing, my experience, like that kind of stuff. Whereas with the gossip questions, we have been talking more about gossip as a construct. It's unclear to me, though, if that's like – just because it's hard to interview someone about fiction, right?
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Like there's either questions about craft, which are basically only interesting if you are a writer or want to be a writer, or it's spoilers. And people are really anti-spoiler culture. So if you're talking to a novelist, you don't really have a choice besides to talk about either process or them personally.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Whereas with a nonfiction book, it's easier to talk about the stuff that's actually in the book.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I don't know that I'm sick of it, but I feel like the question of, like, what my relationship with gossip is at this point, I've said so many times that, like, someone asked it to me recently, and I, like, zoned out halfway through and came back after I was done talking, and I was like, that's crazy. Like, I don't—who knows what I said, right?
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Exactly. Like entered like a fugue state to answer that question. It reminded me of being like a teenager, you know, when you're like in college and people keep being like, what are you going to do with your degree? And you just like create an answer. That is so like repetitive and that you're just saying the same thing over and over again that you forget you're saying it.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
One of my publicists sent me this video of Lady Gaga doing press for A Star is Born. Yes. You sent me this. It's so funny. It's like four minutes of just like spliced interviews that she did of her saying the same exact quote over and over again. Just saying like there can be 100 people in the room and 99 of them don't believe in you.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
It's been crazy. I've been doing so much promotion. I've been so busy. I don't sleep anymore. So that's exciting. But I'm hopeful that very soon I will hibernate. And that's going to be really nice for me to be asleep for a very long time.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And I don't feel like I'm like at any level near that well media trained, but it is when you're answering the same question over and over again, you start to feel like a broken record a little bit.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I think I've gotten better at answering it for sure. And I think I have realized, you know, I used to answer the question by being like, oh, well, I grew up in this way. And I, you know, stuff I've talked about on this podcast a hundred times. I grew up in this way and this is the way my relationship with gossip evolved.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And I think I've started through this process of being asking it a lot, thinking more about like, well, what is my relationship with gossip right now? Right. What does it look like in this immediate moment? Right. And I think the answer to that is it feels very intimate. Not in the intimacy of a lifelong friend. It feels intimate in the way of a summer camp bunkmate.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I didn't go to summer camp, but I assume this is what it's like. Having a freshman year roommate where it's like, I see you vomit and also I'm so tired of you. It's that kind of beautiful, I'm excited to move out and be like, I miss her. I'm having flashbacks. Yeah. Everyone has one of those roommates where it's like you have this forced intimacy because you are constantly together. Yes.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Which is like interesting because even if you might have chosen it by the time you're forced to be together for so long, it's like, oof.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
There's a chapter in the book that I think is like maybe one of the last ones I wrote that is about Picasso and like what we do with gossip that we maybe don't like that I feel like I haven't talked about at all, which is maybe because it's like a little dicey.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Sure. So I write about how I have always loved Picasso. I was trained as an artist in high school and I love to go to a museum and look around. And it has always been infuriating for me that I immediately in any gallery, I'm like, ooh, what's that? I love that. And then I walk over there and it's Picasso.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And I'm like, this is so annoying because it is like very well known that Picasso is an asshole, right? Everyone knows this. It has like been known for decades. And I write in the book about one of my favorite books, which is Francois Guillot's My Life with Picasso, which is a memoir. She was his third wife, basically, had kids with him.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Where are you going to come out of hibernation as?
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And she wrote this memoir about living with him that is really, really brutal. It's this kind of like drawn out affair where she's like, I had never been more in love with my life. And then also he like burnt me with a cigarette, right? Which is like this terrible, right? Awful form of violence, right?
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And I found it so interesting to read because she's a great, I mean, the book is really well written and it provides you this insight into one of these quote unquote great men. But I think she also is willing to hold a lot more nuance for him than people now. Like she's able to say like he was an awful partner. He was an awful man. I had a terrible time being married to him.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Oh my God. Not physically, but I hope emotionally and mentally. I hope maybe by the end of it, I'll be able to meditate. Something I've never been able to do. Oh my God, emptying your mind? Imagine. Imagine your mind being so, so, so blank and your brain so smooth. That's what I want.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And also he's one of the greatest painters to be alive. Right. And that is like a really complicated place to sit. And like, I don't know that I can even do it fully with Picasso. I can't do it with really any of these like great abusive men. But it's like that is a kind of interesting problem with gossip where it's like, does gossip discredit everything?
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I think sometimes it can, but I don't know that it always does.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Yeah, I think it's really hard to talk about this at this point in time because we've been through kind of the first wave of cancel culture. And what we saw in that is that no one really got canceled, right? Like some people got called out for their behavior, but there were basically no consequences for most of those people.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Exactly. And so I think it's really hard to even talk about that in a nuanced way because it's like, well, there is no actual consequence here, right? It would be a different conversation if we were talking about someone who actually faced consequences for their behaviors, and then we could look at the things they had produced separately. And I don't know that we'll ever get there, but it is a
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I mean, it sucks, right? It sucks that the people who make art are people and that some of those people are bad.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Like, it's really hard. I know it wasn't like this for me, but I know for a lot of people, Harry Potter was like this, right? Where it was this kind of devastating blow to lose something that you loved so much. And...
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I get that like it's really hard to handle gossip about a person that directly created something but then the thing they created is like technically separate from that like messy yeah yeah and also not even if it is separate it never is exactly there's no way it's not part of the lens that you're looking through and neither should it be possible to look at them without that affecting your view of them um
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Oh, great.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Books are so annoying, like as a blogger by training and in heart, like I've always worked on a really tight turnaround, right? Like even when I was doing cultural criticism, it was like the max I ever waited for something to be published was like a print deadline, which is probably six or eight weeks out, right? Yeah, max. Max.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And with a book, it's like I say I put my finishing touches on it in August, but like that was fact checking and copy editing and like final touches. It wasn't like, I'm going to insert 12 pages of material here, right? So in reality, I haven't been able to add much to this since, I don't know, June of last year. Yeah. Which is a long time. It's a long time.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. Yeah.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
The first thing I'm thinking about is the Justin Baldoni-Blake Lively case, right? Yes. I'm like, they could have done me a real favor and done this drama two years ago. Like, that would have helped me personally so much. And I know that you have done a lot of like reading on this also.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
But that is such an interesting case from a gossip perspective because it is not only just an absolute mess of he said, she said material. It is so revealing about the gossip industry in Hollywood on its own, right? Seeing like who gets what and when these things are revealed is just, I would have loved to have had that when I was working.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
It would have been a banger.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Oh my God. Sprayed edges. Who am I? Rebecca Yaros? Sprayed edges? Kelsey? I know. We're all so horny for sprayed edges.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Don't tease me like that.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Thank you for having me. How do you feel to have announced the first episode date?
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I'm all amped up.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
To actually be surprised by a twist instead of having planned how a twist will hit for months. Oh, I can't wait.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I will, but I'm sure they're going to be great.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
You can hear this from me. Thank you for having me.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
From PRX.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I do not want to say yes to that, but I feel that I don't have a choice. So go for it.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
So this book rules. It absolutely slaps. It's so old. It's like decades old. And all it is is Phyllis Rose took like literally five Victorian marriages that were all like, you know, when we think of the Victorians, we think of like prudes. Yes. Like they hate sex. They're having no fun. They're losers, right? Cholera. Cholera. Cholera, exactly.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And Phyllis Rose writes about five alternative Victorian marriages. So people who were like living with someone when they were technically married to someone else, people who had three wives, right? All of this stuff. And it is such a like gossipy, prying book. And I think it just like, it does a great job talking about like why we care about other people's marriages.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
But it also is so interesting because it's like, oh, we've always been like this. Yeah. Like everyone has always been like this, which is really fun.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
No, you can't get out of it. It's evolutionary.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Oh, my God. Yeah. When I was reporting this book and researching it, I was reading a lot of studies by sociologists. And one thing that they talk about a lot is that we use gossip as a tool not only to understand our society, but to understand ourselves.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
So it's like when I'm talking to you about something, I might surprise myself by like an instinct that I have or someone I think is a villain in your story and realize, oh, this is a like –
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
underlying bias that i have in my life right so i think a bias that i know i have that comes up all the time when i'm gossiping is like i don't trust any managers like none of them and sometimes like people will be telling me a story and i'm immediately like well clearly your boss is like the one who did this and they're like no my boss is like really good and i'm like well Not according to me.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
I'm like, I reject this information. It's not for me. And that's really interesting because it's like we're just having a casual conversation and yet it's revealing things about myself and my own biases to me. That's an easy example. There are obviously harder ones to encounter.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Oh, wow. Okay. Can't wait to get into this. Yeah.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Uh-huh. I can see that. Yeah.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Absolutely. I think something I'm always getting mad at people for is I'm like, why are you working all the time? Stop working all the time. I literally am constantly saying this. It's so funny that you say that. And all of my friends are like, you dumbass. You work more than anyone we know. And I'm like, I know, but I don't like that about myself. And so I want to enforce it in other people.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And also, I think it's like a lack of self-awareness, right? Where I'm like, I'm built different. It's different when I do it, right? And it absolutely is not. Yeah. Yeah. Sweetie. Look in the mirror. Have you seen this? It's your front facing camera on your iPhone.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
My mother said, I'm sorry you weren't here because Father Sager was here visiting and he found a very nice orphanage for you. And I said, but I'm not an orphan.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Definitely not. No way. I don't offer myself like any ounce of grace that exists in the world. I would love to come on here and lie and be like, yes, I've become very good at giving myself rain. No, I have infinite amounts of empathy for other people. For myself, nada, nothing. And that's beautiful. It's beautiful that you know that.
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Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Yeah, that's fair. It's not even necessarily the actual act of gossiping and the judgment of that is what like reveals something about you. It's also the kinds of gossip you want to talk about, right? Like I noticed this especially in talk therapy where like I'll bring something up and my therapist will be like, why are we talking about this?
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And I'm like, well, I just thought it was really interesting. And she'll push on that, right? I'm like, but why? Why do you think it's so interesting? What is it that's like catching on you, like snagging? And I think that that is like also true. The stories that you instantly want to turn around and tell someone are ones that often say something about you.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
So I want to say if I'm thinking about gossip as a tool that we use, right, that can be used for good or evil or neutral, then I think most often what I'm talking about is either the person who's telling the gossip, right, who is like bringing something with an intention, right? Right. I feel like I say this all the time when people are like, how do you know if you're gossiping badly?
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Like, how do you know if you're being malicious? And I'm like, you know in your body, dude, right? Like you can feel it when you're like intentionally going after someone who maybe doesn't deserve it. And in that case, I would say like that is gossip being used as a tool for evil, right? Or for malicious intent, right? But I also think there is a secret third thing, which is your society's morals.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Gossip is used to enforce whatever we decide as a society is valuable to us. And so if that's something innocuous, like... We decide that we hate it when people wear the color purple, right? We will gossip about people who wear it to try and keep them from not doing it, to try and sanction them back into the correct behavior.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And so I think there is, of course, individual agency in how you're using gossip, but there is also this greater umbrella that we exist in, which is like, what do we say our culture believes in? Which we don't all get an equal share of say in.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. Or even conspiracy at that point.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
A conspiracy theory is like a gossip that flows too close to the sun, right? And so it's like, it's gotten too big and out of control and it starts being like, I'll look for any evidence of this rumor that I've already decided is true and maybe to a nefarious intent, right? Like outing someone would be one. But I think it's also, it's not even necessarily UK, US culture, right? Like,
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Using gossip to socially sanction someone, which is like put them in a line based on what you believe in, is also a party disconnect, right? So like you and I would view the use of social sanctioning to say like you can't say these list of words that we think are harmful to people, right? Like these are slurs that we don't use. We would view that as a moral good. Right.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
There are people in this country who occupy a lot of positions of power who would say that is a moral evil to enforce that, but also that something like slut shaming is a moral good. Right. So often the tool of gossip is tells you more about who's holding it than anything else.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
Okay. So something I've noticed, this is the third season of American Traitors. And the first season was half celebrities, half regular people, half normies. Second season was all celebrities. This season is all celebrities. And something I've noticed is that because Traitors is a game that anyone can play and And it has rules that kind of don't require you to be a good strategist to be on it.
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
It's a really great place for publicists to try and get their person on because it gives them face time and they can make jokes. And so there are people in this season of Traders that I'm like, what the hell are you doing here, right? Like Sam Ashgari I think is actually the best example of this where it's like, what – What are you doing here? Who let you in here? Right? Like, what are you doing?
Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
And it's like, well, it's because it's good PR for him. If he just sits there and doesn't open his mouth and looks pretty beautiful most of the time. Helps win the challenges, demonstrates how strong he is. We are like, oh, I feel positively about that. I do feel positively about that. Right? Right? And so it's like, that's a really good move for a publicist.
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Hell in a Ham Bag with Carson Olshansky
Huge news! Our Dowager Queen, Kelsey McKinney, wrote a New York Times best-selling book of beautiful essays about gossip. It's called You Didn't Hear This From Me, mostly true notes on gossip, and I am obsessed. It's about how we use gossip to learn about ourselves. It's about Britney Spears and Weston Caleb and Gilgamesh and Picasso. It's so fun.
Normal Gossip
Hell in a Ham Bag with Carson Olshansky
And not to be biased, but I kind of think it's pretty excellent. It's out right now in a hardback and a super sexy audiobook, which Kelsey narrates. You can buy wherever you buy your books. You can also go to KelseyMcKinneyBook.com to see all retailers.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
This is it. We are running out of time to reach our goal of 2024 donors before the end of the year. The money that you donate, the funds you're able to share, are crucial to keeping our network running and ensuring that you get to listen to Normal Gossip and all of the other fantastic shows on Radiotopia.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Every dollar counts, and it really all adds up, so whatever you're able to give will make a huge difference. As a token of our gratitude, when you donate today, you'll also get access to the list of our favorite things curated by us and all of the producers in the network. I included something that I truly cannot live without. So head on over to radiotopia.fm slash donate to donate today.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
It kind of is an ACAB movie in that she calls the police. They do not help her. And then they leave.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
But another thing that you've skipped over, at some point during this, before she calls the police... He picks her up over his shoulder, carries her outside and sets her down. And as he's doing this, the producers, God bless them, give us a shot from behind this man where he is like, I don't know, this man played fucking hockey or something. Like he is caked up. Like this man has a giant ass.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
He is cake the fuck up. He's huge. And he carries her outside like she's nothing. Yeah. And sets her down. And in that scene, there is not a hint of flirting. And I'm like, come on, man. No. No.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
shan't be leaving because i need to sell this in and meanwhile the ghost is like i just want to eat food this is like an incredible touch that this movie has in this one scene i was like pumping my fist i was like let's fucking go because he's eating an apple with a knife right like slicing pieces of an apple off to put into his mouth with like a giant bowie knife and
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And he's like, I'm real. And she's like, well, I don't think he's real. And he's like, well, what is real? And then she touches him and it's clear that he's not going to disappear. And then at some point, someone says the phrase, which I have written in all caps in my notes, all his senses are heightened upon his return.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah, I was like, the thing is, there are many, many senses and many kinds of eating, even.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah. I also have a note here that's in all caps that says they should make porn like this. You texted me that. Because I... At this point, I was like, all of the scripting in this scene is like, oh, they're going to fuck. And then you look at the timestamp and it's like, no. No. There's a whole hour and 15 minutes left of this movie. And also it's like cable, right?
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And it took maybe two minutes and I felt way better afterward and my shoulders dropped back to their normal spot. Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, giving you the power to calm your mind and change your life. Calm puts the tools you need right in your pocket and can help you dedicate just a few minutes of each day to live a happier, healthier life.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Right? Yeah. Purgatory is the end, kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Nice purgatory. Beautiful. Very aesthetic. Yeah. There's also, like, a whole problem, which is that for the first, like, 20 minutes of the movie, it's really unclear what time period he comes from. Yes. Like, because the costuming is so bad, and he looks...
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
like a 2016 caked up hipster yeah it's like it's like what like are you from the 1700s like when were you alive yes yes clearly someone asked this in a writer's room because the next scene we get is like her asking him questions and him being like oh like the volstead act like i was bootlegging like liquor into america it's like okay all right prohibition now we know where we are i love that thank you
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
It's, like, partly about how bad prohibition was, but it's also, like, kind of moralistic in that it's, like, against crime. Right? Like, it's, like, he shouldn't be doing these crimes is, like, a major part of this. And I'm, like, I'm sorry... One funny joke he keeps making is that whenever someone says the word bootleg, he's like, I prefer the term rum runner. Yes.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And I'm like, sorry, but being a rum runner is hot. Like you're doing a crime, but it's a hot crime that means we have parties at our house. So I'm like, you guys are all confused. Oh. You need to be more pro this man. You need to be more supportive.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
It is hot. The thing is, crimes for good are good. Robin Hood. It's giving Robin Hood. Bingo. It's also like, yeah, the whole thing with Prohibition was that rich people were still drinking and no one else was. So it's like actually doing like a little absinthe as a treat. Exactly. is good.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah. There's like another flashback here where it shows us like, He's like talking to his fiance in the past. Her name is Lily. And they're like, first off, they're like alone in the inn kissing in presumably 1919, which I'm like, that doesn't seem real to me at all. Not allowed. She also said something to him where she's like, the inn is perfect. It's part of why I fell in love with you.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And I'm like, okay, so she wants your money, my dude. Like there are a lot of problems here with this relationship. Yeah. But the whole time they're in this flashback, it's like, okay, am I the viewer supposed to believe that he wants to be free so that he can be with Lily? Am I supposed to believe that he doesn't want to be free so that he can remember these memories?
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Like, what does this man want? And the answer is, it doesn't matter.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yes, yes. Content. There's a scene where he makes a lot of cocktails. Yes. Because someone question mark challenges his honor and then he's like, I'm the best bartender that's ever lived.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Also, every drink he makes in the scene where he's making drinks is almost clear. And it's like, okay, I do believe that you're a good bartender, actually, because these are straight liquors. I'm scared to drink this drink. He's like, I need Fernette. And it's like, okay, man.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah, he's jacked. Reader, he's jacked. And then she just watches him iron his shirt. And I'm like, get out of his room. You're being rude.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
It looks like it is, but it's not. It's not. This whole movie. Gives the vibe of like, okay, imagine your friend is dating a really hot, giant man.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And is always like kind of has a hot temper and everyone's like, what's up with this guy? Yeah. It's like, if that reality existed, and then this woman was like, what's a version of that reality that would explain his behavior that would allow me to keep dating him? Oh, it's that he's a ghost, actually. And his wife is dead, and that's why he's misbehaving.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Listening and learning are important character traits in a man. And this man is like, at some point in the movie, I don't remember when this is, at some point in the movie, he says like... Women being so forward is very off-putting to me, right? Like them asking you out is very off-putting to me, but also I like it and wish I had it. And it's like, yes. Okay.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
So this is like, this is the fantasy, right? Is that I can change him. Exactly.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah. But unfortunately, the new information he gets while he's being a bartender is that his wife died, which, like, obviously she died. But that also she was pregnant.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And that the baby died. Yes. And all of this is made more complicated by the fact that his wife married his brother after he died. Yes.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
This is definitely one of those things that I actually did find believable in this movie, where I'm like, oh, you're telling me the rum runner wants to have a rager at his house? What a surprise. Like, that is well within character. 100%. Oh, now that I've had three cocktails and remembered how much I love giving other people cocktails, I want to do more of that.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yes. Great Depression cocktails were like... Literally, they were drinking absinthe that made me hallucinate. Like, it was a different time. It was not like, oh, I'm doing my four, you know, adorable little cocktails that have six ingredients. It was like, we've poured gin into this cup. Here you go.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
prohibition plays a really big part in that story as well you know what i'm learning here is that you love prohibition like you the era because you're from chicago
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
you create such a massive market which of course people flood it's a perfect time to honestly be gay do crimes like truly it's also like okay alcohol is banned and also like 60 of the population has trauma from world war one right like everyone's a little bit of an alcoholic yeah exactly it's like okay this is a note that i have highlighted in my document Which is, shouldn't this man smoke?
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
You're right. He should. Why doesn't he smoke? He smokes nothing the whole movie. And I'm like, you're telling me a 1919 rum runner. Whose senses are heightened. Whose senses are heightened isn't just going to be chain smoking cigarettes. Like he absolutely is. But you're right for that here. There's not enough room. He doesn't have a little tobacco pipe. This was before vapes.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
So people had forgotten that tobacco was hot.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
They'd be like, you have to stop smoking these cigarettes inside. They're worse for you. Have this.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah. Imagine giving him a 10 milligram gummy and being like, good luck, babe. Oh, you want to eat more?
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Huge news. I wrote a whole book of beautiful essays about gossip. It's called You Didn't Hear This From Me. And I'm so, so proud of it. It's about how we use gossip. It's about Britney Spears and West Elm Caleb and Gilgamesh and Picasso. And it's so, so fun. And I think it's really good. It comes out February 11th in hardback and a sexy audio book, which I read.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
You can buy it wherever you get books. You can go to KelseyMcKinneyBook.com to see all the retailers where you could possibly buy a book from and to buy tickets for the upcoming book tour, which will be really fun and really exciting. That's KelseyMcKinneyBook.com.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Cats are so weird. My cat, Pong, just recently decided that he only ever wants to sleep inside of an Ikea tote bag full of other tote bags. It's just what he wants now. We all know that cats have a lot of opinions, and that's especially true when it comes to cat litter. I'm sure you've gone through tons of it over the years, but once you give pretty litter a try, you and your cat will love it.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I got to spend an evening recently with Nate DiMaio, the host of The Memory Palace, which is a beautiful show that is also part of Radiotopia. He was in my city promoting his new book, also called The Memory Palace, and he started talking about Radiotopia.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Now that I'm an adult with a real job and I can actually buy presents, I started really liking it. Like giving a gift to someone that they don't want to buy for themselves or would never buy for themselves is such a treat. Like especially if you can give them just a little bit of luxury, like something they don't know they're missing. For quality gifts at an affordable price, my go-to is Quince.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I know I've said this before, but I'm literally obsessed with their cashmere throw blanket. It's like the perfect size for a throw blanket. So it just like fits over you and it's so, so, so warm and it's so soft. It's also great, you know, if you don't know someone's size and you don't want to guess, get them a throw blanket. It's soft. It's lovely. Everyone wants them.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.com slash gossip for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash gossip to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash gossip. One of these nights, well, they have a fight because that's important. And then she like gets scared of something. Yes. At some point in here.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Something's in the house that's not Daniel. She's like, there are whispers. Do you hear the whispers? And I'm like, at this point, I'm like, okay, is this a horror movie? Right? Like, are we actually going to turn? That could be fun. And then he decides that he's actually going to sleep in her room with her, except he doesn't sleep because he's a ghost. Yes.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
So he sits in her room and they do not kiss. No. It's an edging movie, which again... It's an edging movie. Porn.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
she clearly is you know the thing is this movie makes a whole thing about like well you couldn't possibly be in love with a ghost that's only there 12 days out of the year and i'm like for a girl boss no insane it actually could be a perfect relationship to just have a band that is from 1920 that you're in love with that you only see for the 12 days leading up to christmas like that's your two weeks of vacation no exactly with him then you go back to work
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And he can't like fuck around while he's not with you because he's in like ghost purgatory. He's not E&M.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Because she's miserable. That's like the whole thing about these women is that they're miserable because they have jobs. And having jobs makes people miserable.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Makes everyone miserable. Okay, so she goes back to Boston because a senator died? Question mark?
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I don't know. Her boss says she has to, so she does.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Hello. I'm so excited for this episode. I'm also really excited. We have a special little holiday treat. I hope that everyone did their homework. If you haven't done your homework, the homework was to watch The Spirit of Christmas. So I guess fucking spoiler alert.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
But her boss, Katie's boss, does not take this well. No. He's like, you need to be here forever or else you won't get a promotion. The promotion is like, it's unclear to me what it is or if she really wants it. Yeah. Who cares? She is like clearly going back. There's never even really any question whether she's going back or not.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
They're crying. They're hugging. Yes. It's beautiful. And now we're, like, approaching... Christmas party. The first thing I would like to discuss is her hair. Okay.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
which is that first off she's wearing an insane outfit she's wearing a like t-length bright red dress yeah it has a like sweetheart neckline but also a strap and a shoulder cap so it's like just a deranged outfit but what's more deranged is the whole movie this woman has been wearing a wig with luscious hair right it looks great in every scene because it's a wig
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
In this scene, the wig has been twisted into a side ponytail. One. One side ponytail for a formal event. The side ponytail is like, it's, it's like. It's crazy. It's like a fuck ass ponytail. It's so bad. It like looks like a ponytail you give your friend like to make her laugh. It's not real. It's. The way kids' hair looks after school.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
She's a beautiful girl. This outfit does nothing for her. This hairstyle does even less.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And, like, the problem is, is that this is the outfit she's supposed to be in for their first kiss. yes that like they're gonna kiss in her room only kiss yeah and she's like but the whole time i was just like what is up with her hair no fix it fix it jesus you're correct i the way i forgot about this
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Oh, it's so bad. This is also one of those where it's like, you know what? I now believe that this character has no friends. Seeing this ponytail, I'm like, I 100% believe it. You have no friends because no friend of yours would allow you to wear your hair like that to fuck a ghost. That's not, it's wrong.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Also, like, men of the 1920s cannot appreciate side ponytails. That was only fashionable from 1980 to 1984.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
By now he knows that she didn't because Kate finds a birth certificate for the baby that has his name on it.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
You've had a decade, but you know, it is available on Amazon Prime and Apple Plus to rent. So it's not too late to watch this and then come back. Anyway, we're going to discuss this. Rachel, how the fuck did you find this movie? Why are we here?
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Which is also insane for other reasons, because it's like if you're pretending to be married to someone's brother in order to hide the fact that you were having sex before marriage, you would put your husband's name on the birth certificate of that baby, even if it was his brother's like that's not.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
It's so weird. This whole scene is so strange. Describe it. Tell me what happens. Okay. Kate is, like, dancing with someone. Not our business. And he's, like, watching her dance when he, like, sees Lily dancing.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Like, he can, like, see his former wife in the room. And, like, we're getting shots that show us that, like, other people can't see her, right? Like, only he can see her. She is actually kind of wearing an appropriate gown. Like, she looks different than everyone else. And he can, like, basically see the replay of, like... It's like watching a replay back in a sports game.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
It's like he can see the replay of what was happening inside the party the night that he was killed. And he, like, follows her outside. His brother is also there. They're, like, talking about how his brother's being like, I hate my brother because he, like, is a lawbreaker. Like, I love cops. I don't know what this guy's problem is. He sucks.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And Lily keeps being like, no, I love him and I can change him. Like, literally, she's basically like, I can change him and he'll stop doing crimes eventually. Yeah. um and then he's like only at this point does he realize that then his brother couldn't have killed him because you could see him on the porch the whole time and then at the party appears his cousin yes holding a bloody rock ah
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
both cousin and lily were ghosts in this house the whole time and daniel somehow didn't notice them for a hundred years which i had questions are there different planes for ghosts like how did they not interact with each other and then also they're like trying to do this thing where they're like it's a gift that lily gave him and i'm like but what's the gift here babes like What?
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
He gets killed because he tries to get out of the game. You're right. Daniel's like, I'm not doing rum running anymore. I'm going to be a good, upstanding citizen. And the thing is, people in charge of massive illegal operations do not like that. And so his cousin has to kill him. So in a way, his wife and his brother's obsession with the law killed him. Correct. If you think about it.
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
They, like... But, like... I don't even think it's implied. I know according to the movie...
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Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
i know but also like ah what did they do all night well i think this is the thing that makes me crazy about this scene is it's like at midnight he's like gonna turn back into a ghost or whatever and so they kiss a little and then she goes to sleep on the couch and i'm like that's crazy i don't believe it if you're in love with someone
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah. This is a crazy thing about ghosts that I often think about is how, like, obsessed we are with property. And as a connection to ghosts, where it's like, a ghost haunts this house. A ghost haunts this space. And it's like, what... Why?
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah, you're not. He's huge. He's huge. He says the wrong thing all the time because he is from 1920. He's never seen a woman vote before.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
He doesn't know what football is. Like, he at one point calls a cell phone your special device. Yes.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I want to show him the Real Housewives of New York.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah. There's so much that he doesn't know. And like, this is what I mean about this being like, the whole movie feels like a delusion of a girl who just like wants an excuse to date a hot guy. It's like, there's no world here. in which this relationship works. Like, just truly no world. They have bad communication skills. They are like, they have not spoken to each other at all.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
He knows nothing about her. She's too busy to have friends. And I'm supposed to believe that she's just going to be able to educate a man from the 1920s into, like, not getting arrested for doing, like, hate speech? Like, there's no way, right?
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah, so you know how during your lifetime there were people who wanted Black people to vote? Now a Black person was president.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah. I'm also like, can you have a baby with someone? No, literally. Who's that old? Like, is he fertile?
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
That's a good point. Maybe she doesn't want children.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
She barely kisses him. She kisses him two times.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
The subtext is real. I think that's the thing that is the most implausible to me about the ending of the movie is this, like, moment where it's, like, the clock is ticking down and they're just, like, having this nice, like, hug. I'm like, you're telling me. His senses are heightened.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
He's about to go back to what he described as a waking nightmare for the rest of the year and this man is not fucking? Yeah.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Also, I do think this guy's kind of a good actor, to be honest. Yes, I agree. His facial expressions are very good. And there's a scene early on where she touches him
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
to like prove that he's real like she touches his arm and you can see like the actor's body like sees a little and it's like yeah this man is like not gonna survive making out without having sex like he's dying he's dead maybe the issue is that they made out and he uh got a little too excited yeah
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Yeah. Tragic. Tragic. Thank you for supporting Normal Gossip. Thank you for joining us on this journey through the spirit of Christmas. Rachel, thank you for coming out and bringing us this horrific and beautiful film.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I'm in the Rachel Hampton cultural experience class. Exactly. We're on Rachel time, as my friends call it. Wow. I love Rachel time. I'm so happy to be here. You told me to go into this movie, not Googling it, no information.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
So the only thing I knew about it before putting it on was that you had, in an effort to try and help me understand if I had seen it or not, you had mentioned it's about a ghost. The spirit is a ghost. And I was like, okay, no, I haven't seen that. And two, I very much want to.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I don't think we're going to be able to be brief because I have a lot of notes. Let's do the longest recap ever.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I don't know. We're in the woods. And we're also in the past. I would say he's the main character, even though he's not the protagonist. Our main character, giant man, walking through the snow. He's looking at a white inn where he can see a woman embracing a man on the little patio veranda situation. And he's clearly upset by this because there are no subtleties in this movie at all.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And then he pulls out a pocket watch out of his pocket that looks to have been made of like, I don't know, plastic. And he looks at that and then he is hit in the back of the head. The screen goes dark and we flash to the present day. So tell me how you felt after that scene. The first thing I did was Google, what year did this movie come out? Everything about it is insane.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
This man has the most, like, 2010s face I've ever seen in my life. Right? He has iPhone face.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
It's also like if you had put this man in a suit that was not made out of polyester. it would be like immediately apparent that he is not from the present. But because everything that everyone in the past is wearing looks like it came from Kohl's, it makes it feel like you have no idea where you are or what time it is. And that's fun.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
okay so the plot that we're given right after she breaks up with his boyfriend is deranged the plot is like she's a lawyer unclear what kind of law i think property law property law okay and her boss is like a rich lady died she had no heirs she had this fancy inn and we don't want to pay taxes on it so it has to be sold by the end of the year which is in three weeks
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I felt so proud to be a colleague of his and to be part of this collective that literally puts its money where its mouth is when it comes to supporting independent creators. I understand there is so much going on in the world right now.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Already insane. Also, is that how taxes work? Is that real? I don't think so. One. Two, he's like, it goes to the trust. And the whole point of having a trust is to evade taxes. Yeah. So it's like, I don't really believe that this is like a premise that exists at all. But whatever. It works. Works for me. So she drives her Jeep Cherokee out. Yes. Like she's not a girl who has a Jeep Cherokee.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
I think it's supposed to be like New Hampshire, Vermont. Because at some point he's like, you've got to come back to Boston. And it's clear that she like drove. Yeah. But whatever. One problem that I have is that, and you may also have this problem, is that I spent my whole childhood watching movies about Christmas in the Northeast. And I thought it was going to fucking snow here. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
And it doesn't usually. Yeah. That's because of climate change. I know, and I want it.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
It's snowing like feet of snow on the ground. Like there's so much snow, which is maybe why she has to have a Jeep Cherokee.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
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Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Which, first off, is insane to assume that you're just going to stay at an inn. Like, that's what you have to pay for things. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
As a writer, one of my favorite things to recognize in dialogue is where someone has poked a hole in the plot. And then instead of resolving the hole in the plot, they just have one character say a line. So in this case, the question is, she's like, why aren't there people here? Wouldn't this be the inn's most busy season? Yeah. And then he's like, yes, but we are never open. And it's like, what?
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
Okay, me too. And I'm like, if someone who lived in a house told me I couldn't stay there because there was a ghost there, I would be like, is the ghost nice? Correct. And then if they said no, I would be like, cool. I'm not staying here. That's not my business.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
But our girl has like true, like first girl dead in a horror movie brain where she is like, well, I'm actually different because I'm a girl boss and ghosts can't hurt girl bosses.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
There's a fucking ghost. Okay. Also more terrifying than a ghost, right? Because I know what you're thinking if you haven't seen this movie. You're thinking like maybe he's a little blurry. Exactly. Maybe he's like transparent. Maybe he has no legs. Maybe his body, you can't touch it, right? Like typical depictions of ghosts. No.
Normal Gossip
Holiday Bonus: Caked Up Spirit of Christmas
What this actually is, is a full man who is fully embodied, who is giant, and from 1920, who is just in the same house as you. Like, in some ways, that's scarier than a ghost. I'm like, I don't know. Absolutely not.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah. Grand Aunt Julia's whole thing is that she is the most dramatic woman to ever live. Like something gets spilled, she's crying. She hears a couple fighting, she assumes they're getting a divorce, right? Like she has to do laundry. It's the worst day of her life.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Okay. Well, let's talk about it. Tell me what your relationship with gossip is. Why are you feeling stressed about it?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So in high school, Allegra goes over and her grand aunts tell her this story, which I will now tell you. Okay. Great-grandma matriarch had 10 beautiful children. Her youngest was 6 years old when she decided she wanted one more child. An 11th child.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So she tries to have this 11th child for two years and does not become pregnant. And this is like very hard, right? During this time, she goes on a business trip with great-grandpa patriarch to San Diego.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And even though she was a Catholic woman, she was like so stressed and having such a hard time that she said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to see a psychic.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
You think it makes sense to see a psychic in San Diego. This is something that is reasonable to you.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah. You're on vacation. So she goes to see the psychic in San Diego and the psychic gives her three predictions. The predictions are she needs to move apartments.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Unclear. The second is that she would be pregnant by the end of the year. And the third is that her eldest son, who was engaged at the time, must wait to get married until the baby was born.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Wow. This is you have never been farther. So you've never seen a psychic.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
It's not your business what's going to happen in the future.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Rishi. Like, do you have someone in there to text you?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I love this. So psychic, not for you. The future, not for you. You reject it. Unfortunately, we have heard from a psychic already in this story.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
That is smart. I think it's very smart to not trust a prophecy. Okay, so her great-grandmother, matriarch, receives this prophecy, these three predictions. She returns home from San Diego, and she's like, it's time to get to work. It's time to put these predictions into action. She immediately finds her family a new, bigger place to live.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Sure enough, by the end of the year, she was pregnant. And this is important. She was 48 years old. Wow. So that baby became Enzo, the grandpa. So grandpa's whole life, he was like spoiled, beautiful, miracle baby.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Good question. So because the first two predictions came true, great grandmother matriarch was like, well, we are absolutely following this third prediction because safety first, like we don't want to offend the psychic.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And so the eldest son did postpone his wedding until after the baby was born.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
This is the family legend. Do you like it? What do you think?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah. And I also think in a family like this, right, like, because the psychic was right, this becomes lore.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Right? Like, were the psychic wrong, we would have never heard this story and it would have disappeared forever.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So this is a story Allegra hears from her granddads. She loves it. She ends up going to college in California and she's like seeing psychics constantly, like going down to San Diego because she's like, maybe I can find one that will give me the same kind of guidance.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Just like never got this kind of psychic that would be like, here are things you should do. Everyone was going vague mode.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Exactly. Exactly. You will find fulfillment in your life. You will find a career that you like. It's like bomb. Perfect. How? Okay. You had to hear this whole story because it is important to our main drama, which takes place like 10 years after Allegra graduated from college.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And importantly, in that 10 years, because the grand generation was all very old, most of them have died. Okay. Aunt Grand Maria has died. Grandpa Enzo has died. Like a bunch of people in the generations above her have died.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
No prophecy related tragedies. And what our story is concerned with is the death of Aunt Julia.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
The most dramatic woman to ever live because Aunt Julia is the last one of that grand generation to die. She died at a glorious age of 99 years old.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yes. Like Allegra would go over to her house and gab. Like she had a very good relationship with Allegra's mom. Like they were close in a way that like families who are big and live in the same city can be.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I think you like gossip so much. I think you do. Seeing your aunts and being like, what were you doing in 1985? Okay. It's winter when Grand Aunt Julia dies. It is cold. Everyone is sad. But they are also like, we loved our Grand Aunt Julia. She lived to 99 years old. She had this great full life.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yes. She dies in Grand Aunt Maria's giant spiral staircase home, which is beautiful in a way. Everyone's doing this stuff that happens after someone's died, right? Like they're telling stories, they're showing photos of them when they were 25 and being like, look how hot she was, right? Like that whole rigmarole.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And one day Allegra's mom is like, hey, will you go with me to do like the funeral arrangements?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And this is a family that like knows how to throw a funeral because there were 11 grand generation people and almost all of those people got married and had kids, right? So they know how to throw a funeral.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So Allegra goes with her mom and she helps her pick a coffin, helps her pick flowers, helps her do the obituary, all the normal stuff. They go to the funeral place and the man at the funeral place is like, I'm so sorry for your loss. And they're like, thank you so much. And they're like, it's okay. You know, like, she lived such a long life. She was almost 100 years old. And the man is like, what?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And he's like, well, that is going to be a problem.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah. They're like, what's going to be a problem, man? Like... What do you mean? And he's like, well, the problem is, according to the government records that we have, she was about to turn 94. Wow. Which is much younger than 100.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
The thing is, no one in this family knew that this was a controversy, right? Like, they all were like... Grand Aunt Julia is almost 100. And now they have this man in the funeral parlor being like, I don't think so. So Allegra and her mom are like, okay, whatever. Like, we don't care that your government records say 94. Right.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Okay, this is so funny because I feel like I was raised in a really similar way. Like my father was a pastor. I was very aware of like the way that I was perceived in the world and the way I needed to behave to like make sure that no one thought I was either bad or too good, right? Like I feel the same about that. But how did gossip play into that? Like were you told not to gossip?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
She's dead. And the man is like, not whatever. The government documents say one thing and you're saying another. And there are like logistical rules about dying. And we cannot finalize her death certificate until we know how old she was. And Allegra's mom is like, I don't care. This does not matter to me. I want this over with. And the man is like, I'm so sorry. That's not how this works.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
No, you cannot. Or at least they weren't allowed to. But the problem is they don't know how she was, right? Like, she's dead. Her parents are long dead. Her siblings are all dead. So there's no one to be like, when is your sister's birthday? Right. So they're like fumbling around in the dark, right? They're like, can we order a new birth certificate for this dead woman who was either 99 or 93?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
It's unclear. And because this is a big family and things are moving and a funeral is planned, they are on a time crunch. People are coming from out of town and it takes time to get a birth certificate for someone that old. What do you do here?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Great idea. Everyone in this family is like, we're looking for evidence now. Like, we are going through the hundreds of drawers in Grand Aunt Maria's house that haven't been opened in decades. And we are looking for anything that is like an official document.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Exactly. They're finding scrapbooks from a million years ago and folders and like tons of receipts that Grand Ambaria just like kept in bags for some reason. And they come up with two pieces of evidence. One is a scrapbook with like a picture of baby Grand Aunt Julia that has the date of her birth written, making her 99 years old.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
The other is a tattered piece of paper that's like 70 years old with the names of everyone in the family in cursive and their brand new social security number and their ages. And this puts Grand Aunt Julia as younger. Oh. So you have two conflicting documents. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Do you know anything about the history of social security numbers?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Okay, great. I'm going to tell you because I looked it up.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Social security numbers were introduced by the Social Security Act in 1935. They began in earnest in November of 1936 with FDR's New Deal. And what we did as a country, I guess, was we converted a thousand post offices into typing centers. And then they just like made cards and shipped them to Washington.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So that means that everyone who was born before 1936 did not have a social security number, right? Someone was like coming to your house and being like, who lives here? What's their name? How old are they? Writing that down on a piece of paper and then getting you a card with a number on it.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So the document that they have in the house is this document that is like from the family's social security numbers being assigned.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yes. And there are like a couple of real problems with this document, right? Like people's names are spelled wrong. Like the handwriting is borderline illegible.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Grandpa Enzo's quote middle name is just the letter D. And sure enough, Julia's age is five years younger than the family thought it should have been.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Here's a question I have for you. If some guy came to the door and he was like, what's your name and your birthday and your age? Is it possible she just lied?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So I'm thinking about this as if I answered the door and I'm like, I'm 33 years old.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah, I'm like, if a government officer asks me my age, one, I might forget, right? I might get it wrong. Who's to say? And two, the temptation to be like, I'm 28 is certainly there.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
OK, I love this read. Everyone in the family in present day, like post Aunt Julia's death, is like mystery solved. Somebody wrote down the age wrong. Maybe she lied. It doesn't matter. Right. Like they're like, we have a document that says she's 93, which is what the government thinks she is. That's fine. We accept this false narrative.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
But at this point, Allegra's own mother is like, huh. I just like really thought there was going to be a bigger reveal here.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah. Everyone's like, why would you think that? And Allegra's mother is like, well, right before Grand Aunt Julia died, she said something to me. What? Way to bury the lead, hunty.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Everyone in this family is like, did you ask her follow-up questions? Like, what else did she say? And Allegra's mom is like, To be honest, I just assumed she was being dramatic.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Which like is a possibility, right? Because like Grand Aunt Julia was the most dramatic woman who ever lived. And so she could have just been saying this because she like learned that someone was a fake blonde.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
What's your instinct here? Do you think it's just dramatic?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
She certainly is. I think that's a great read. Everyone in the family is like, Whatever. Right. Like this is becoming a whole thing. The funeral needs to continue. So they like go to the funeral guy. They're like, so sorry. Our bad. We were confused. We accept whatever the date the government has. Here's this document they have. Like, is this a lie? Yes. Whatever.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I was going to say that's something that I imagine is hard if that is a feeling you had as a child that has continued in your profession where you are now public and people are like aware of your existence.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
He's like, great. Things are being sorted. Like, sure, the date on her headstone is going to be wrong, but whatever. They're like, it's probably what Granddad Julia would have wanted anyway.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
In the lead up to the funeral, TikTok releases a new filter.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah. OK. And that filter, this is going to connect. I promise that filter is the filter that makes you look old. Do you remember this?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Exactly. Yeah. Allegra puts this filter on her like beautiful 30 something face and it's like a jump scare. Right. And she's like, oh, my God. OK, I need more retinol. I need sunscreen. I got to take care of myself. But she's also like, wait a second. I look exactly like Granddad Julia.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Genetics can be weird, right? Like I look like my dad's sister.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
For example, that's weird. So she has this picture of herself that looks exactly like Granddad Julia. She takes a screenshot and she sends it to the family chat. And everyone's like, oh, my God, that's crazy. You look just like her. That's so cute.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
It's like, oh, adorable. And then suddenly Allegra is like looking around at everyone in her immediate family. And she's like, we all kind of look like Grand Aunt Julia. Like we all have her eyebrows and her hair and we love to be dramatic. Do you have any thoughts on this? You think she's reaching?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Allegra is like ready to pull out the like red string.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Like she's ready. She's on a mission. She's like.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
OK. She's like, OK, my whole life is a lie. Right. Ninety three or ninety nine. And then she's like, wait a second. The legend.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Do you remember the legend of the psychic that I told you up top?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Bingo. Okay. Wow. Great memory. Incredible. Allegra is like thinking about this legend. And she is like, the part of it that just like never made sense to me is like why he moved the wedding. She's like, why would that wedding need to be moved to, She's like, sure, the mom saw a psychic and the psychic told her to. But, like, it's a baby. Like, what does that matter? You're a mother of 10.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Like, it's not scandalous to be pregnant with your 11th child at your son's wedding, like, even if you're older. And then she's like, wait a second. She's like, she was, like, so much older when she had Grandpa Enzo. Like, her 10th kid was born a full eight years before Allegra's grandfather was.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And suddenly she's like, how old was Aunt Julia when grandpa was born?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Allegra is like, I'm going straight to my mom. Right. She goes straight to her mom. She's like, how old was Aunt Julia when grandpa was born? And her mom is like, ha ha ha. Who's asking? Because famously she has two ages. And Allegra is like, mom, not now. Like, how old was she? And her mom is like, well, 20. She was 20 years old. Why? And Allegra's like, and she wasn't married, right?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And her mom is like, yeah, she was never married. And Allegra's like, okay, hear me out. What if Aunt Julia got pregnant out of wedlock at 20 years old and had a secret pregnancy and a secret baby, and that secret baby was Miracle Baby Enzo, your father?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
The mom is like, what? Like, where is this coming from? But Allegra is like on a roll, right? She's like, and great-grandma matriarch lied to cover for her so that her reputation wouldn't be ruined.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Now the two of them are cooking. The mom's like, oh, my God. The my whole life is a lie thing. It all makes sense, right? She's like, my aunt always doted on me more than my other cousins. Yeah. She's like, this is nuts. She's reeling. Allegra's like, yeah, I was always closer to Aunt Julia than all my other cousins. Like, what does it mean?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
They're like, this would make the wedding move make sense because it would be scandalous to have a pregnant Julia at the wedding.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Allegra is like, well, she could be lying about her age because if she's five years younger, she couldn't be her brother's mother.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Are you buying this? Do you think that this ties up all the parts of the legend?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
To lessen the tragic a little bit. The nice thing is that this is a very close family where like they were close.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Everyone was close. So it's like it wasn't that she was like disconnected from her family. It was just that everyone was doing a lie at the grand level.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Okay, there's one piece of the family legend that Allegra's like, this doesn't make sense. Allegra's like, why tell them to move apartments?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So Allegra's like, okay, I'm convinced now that, like, she was pregnant, that grandma lied, that they moved the wedding to hide her pregnancy.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Right. She's like, is the legend even real? She's like, and why move? And this piece like grates on her.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Right. Like she's not sleeping in the lead up to this funeral because she's like, why would they move? Like, why would the psychic tell them to move?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
The funeral comes. It is like both a joy and a pain to celebrate the life of Julia, who was either Allegra's great aunt or great grandmother. Yeah. But like when you loved someone, it doesn't really matter exactly what their relationship was to you.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So she was like, I have all these beautiful memories with her. I loved her so much. I will miss her. Great thing about funerals is it's also a time to riff with people that you love about the person who has died, right?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So they're riffing. Allegra's chatting it up with one of her mom's random brothers, and she's telling him all about this situation, right? She's walking him through. She's like, I think the legend is wrong. I think da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And drama, famously, is one of this family's most dominant traits.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And suddenly this guy is like, oh, you know, there's another weird, like funny thing here. And Allegra's like, great, gimme, I'm looking for evidence.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And this guy's like, your grandpa had a weird middle name.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And Allegra's like, the letter D? Exactly. And this guy's like, yeah, I think it was for Diego.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
This is a strange middle name for this man to have, right? Like this is a family of Donnie's and Dino's and Marco's and that type of name.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And Allegra is like San Diego. Like he was named after the psychic city. Yeah. And her uncle casually is like, oh, no, I don't think he was named after the city. I think he was named after the neighbor boy. Right. And Allegra's like, what?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And he's like, oh, yeah, like when your granddads were growing up, there was a family next door and the kids were like the same age and the oldest was named Diego.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Allegra's like, oh, my God. That's why they had to move.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Grand Aunt Julia got knocked up by the neighbor boy.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Oh, she. So there is a difference, right, in people gossiping about you and the fear of gossip at large as something that could affect you and gossiping as an individual, right? Like doing the gossip creation. Do you gossip? Yes.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
The first thing she does is like run around and tell everyone, right? She's like, oh my God, guys, guys, guys, I've like figured it out.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And a bunch of the people who like knew the grand generation really well are like, oh my God, that makes so much sense. Like he was always around.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Like he like loved your grandfather. Like he was kind of like an uncle to a lot of us. Like that's crazy.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I don't know, unfortunately. We are at the end of this story. How do you feel? Whose side are you on?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And yeah, I know it's infuriating. Do you feel like you can take a side in this story?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I do like that you're like knowing about the future, not my business. I reject it. Knowing about the past, I must know.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Which is that like ultimately there is no way to know if she lied. Like everyone who would have known the truth took it to their grave with them.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
But someone did find a photo of Diego in one of the family albums and he looked exactly like grandpa. Wow.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Rishi, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight to have you.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
It's so funny. I feel like you're the second person. We've done how many episodes of the show, right? Like, you're the second person to come in and say, like, I actually am afraid of it and I'm kind of against it. Yeah. It's kind of like a breath of fresh air to be like, okay, like, it's interesting to have someone sitting here saying like, no, I'm kind of against it, actually.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Like, am I here on a podcast called Normal Gossip? Yes, but that's not my business.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I'm going to tell this story in silence. People will love it.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I am so excited to welcome to the show friend of the podcast, Rishi Keish-Hirwe.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Well, then I feel weird asking you this next question, which is did you bring a gossip for me?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
The date was the marriage. In a way, they're still on their first date.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Rishi is a singer and songwriter and the host of Song Exploder, which is an award-winning podcast and Netflix series where he interviews other musicians about how they created one of their songs. Rishi co-hosted the award-winning podcast Home Cooking with chef and previous Normal Gossip guest Samin Nosrat, and he hosts the podcast The West Wing Weekly.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I love the idea of here's my resume, send it to all potential employers and all my wives. Yeah, exactly.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Rishi has also composed original scores for film and TV, including the Netflix series Everything Sucks and the video game The Red Lantern and the upcoming sci-fi thriller Companion, which comes out in theaters in January. It's a little rude for him to be this talented. Rishi, welcome to the show.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
This man is an icon. Like... To leave a party and then be like, you know what, actually, I have a resume in my pocket from my former 2T slash cousin that I think is perfect for this is like a matchmaker's dream.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah. And it worked, even though your mom was picky.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
That's wild. How long was it between meeting and actual wedding?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
It's so nice that your parents found love and that it worked for them.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Wow. Uh-oh, Alex is typing. Who knows what this could be? Wow. She says that she's hearing that Rishi owes his life to gossip. And in a way, in a way.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Wow, that was beautiful. Thank you for bringing me that, Rishi.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I love love. I love family. I also think a little bit of a nice continuity to the gossip that I had to tell you.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Our friend of a friend today, we're going to call her Allegra.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And Allegra is from a huge Catholic family from a big city in the middle of the country. And this is the kind of family with, like, stories, right? Like, stories about uncles who did God knows what. Right. Great grandfathers who immigrated with suitcases full of cheese. Great, great ancestors who had feuds that like lasted generations.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
The kind of stories that get passed down and down and down forever. The story I'm going to tell you is about like one story, basically, that Allegra heard when she was in high school and that she thinks about constantly. Okay. To tell this story, we have to do some genealogy, you and me, to make sure that we understand the family tree. Okay.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
I'm so excited you're here. How are you feeling?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Okay. So our main girl is Allegra. Okay. And we're going to be dealing with Allegra's grandfather's family.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Which is giant. I'm going to walk you through it. Okay. So Allegra is like the bottom of the tree, right?
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
Yeah, exactly. And above her is Allegra's mom. The level above that is what I'm going to call the grand level. And this is the level where most of our drama is going to take place.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So Allegra's mom's dad... her grandfather, his name is Enzo.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
And Enzo is the youngest of 11 kids. Wow. You do not need to know all of them because that's too many people. You only need to know two other people on this level. The first one is Aunt Julia and the second is Aunt Maria. Got it. Okay. And then the final level of our tree is like the great grandparents, the original matriarch and patriarch of this family.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So Allegra heard this most important legend in her family when she was in high school, which was like a little more than a decade ago. And at this point, Grand Aunt Maria and Grand Aunt,
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
julia were in their like early 80s okay grand aunt maria is a character we're talking like always in a fur coat always in pearls always in skin tight leggings going out to the grocery store fur coat exactly where did her long dead husband's money come from don't ask that question i didn't say anything about that that's a different episode That's not our business. Okay.
Normal Gossip
Family Lore Drop with Hrishikesh Hirway
So Grand Aunt Maria lives in this giant house, like sweeping staircase with a metal railing, a driveway that's a whole loop, like a big bathtub that can fit a whole adult. Like there's a fountain somewhere. Gotcha. And she lives there with her sister, Grand Aunt Julia.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Like the like very loud theater kid brand is a type that I really struggle to interact with because I'm a Virgo and I'm not fun. also a thing I don't like is international waters like they could just kill you out there like you shouldn't go out there you definitely should not go out there for work like we barely have any protections in this country don't go out there
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Um, I've never been on a cruise and I don't really want to go out there on a cruise. Um, I think the ocean is a beautiful and terrifying place and I respect her by staying away.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
And more than anything, it requires its creators to be entertained. If I'm bored by a story, you'll be bored by a story. Like, if I'm not excited about something we're doing, it won't feel exciting for you. I never want to half-ass an episode for y'all. I do not want to run this thing into the ground on my own ego or hubris or some other weird third thing.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Yeah, I mean, yikes. My first job in journalism paid $30,000 before taxes, and I had to move to Washington, D.C., which has one of the highest tax rates in the country. Almost all creative careers are filled with people who are just secretly wealthy, and you don't find that out until they're like 27 somehow. Like they just hide it.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
And I also think there's like in any creative career, if you are successful, you know that part of that is luck. Yeah. And, like, if you don't get lucky, you are kind of screwed, right? Like, I was there. I remember being like, I just need five things to fall in my favor and it'll be fine. And, like, there's nothing you can do to control that, which sucks. Poor Josie.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Ooh, okay. So you have no life expenses, essentially.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Okay, the thing is, I'm getting it, right? Like, it's cold, it's miserable. Once I dropped my cannoli on the ground in Boston, so I have beef with that city. Like, I understand why she would want to leave. I still am like, don't do it. Like, do not get on this cruise ship.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
The stories being good has always been our priority. And for the stories to continue being good on Normal Gossip, it needs new minds. Which is all to say we have been keeping a secret from you this whole season. And it has been so hard because it is such an exciting secret. Last week's episode with Rishikesh Hereway was the last episode that Alex and I controlled. We babied it. We loved it.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This woman has been living for eight years at sea in a shared room? Yeah.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I've seen those terrifying TikToks. Where it's like a boat going through waves that seem to be the size of like the Empire State Building.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Oh, she's an artist. Yes. And those scare me. Also, you don't need to go to Antarctica. That's not a place people need to go. Like, I understand that people are like, I want to see penguins. They have penguins at the zoo.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
We love all of our episodes, our beautiful children. Don't ask us which one is our favorite. We don't know. For us, the gossip era is changing. I have written a book about gossip that's out in February. I'll tour it in February, and then I will be moving on. Alex will move on. We will move on to something else that I can't tell you yet because I don't know what it is.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
So it's just our entire text thread. Exactly. Exactly.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I'm feeling stress. I also think, you know, two stubborn people who are on the same team is very dangerous for everyone else. So that is a power position to have all the secrets and be the boss and be in a stubborn person duo. Those are some good observations.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Okay, so being cozy is forbidden. Yes. And you must be wrinkly. This seems so bad. You can't have a heating pad? No. I use my heating pad sometimes in my house when it's like 70 degrees.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. I also imagine if you are singing consistently on a cruise ship, You're going to want to have like a nice little, you know, warm water with lemon as a treat. A little honey.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Okay. So I need to go through a metal detector. My bag is going to be scanned. I think maybe if it's going through a metal detector, you have a problem, right? Because the hot plate is mostly metal. So it's going to set off the little dingy thing no matter what.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
So that means that you need the hot plate to go through security in something that's not going to go through the metal detector thing, right? So could I like buy a bag for all of the film cameras that I have and put it on the bottom of that? That's what I would do and be like, this is my bag for film. It can't go in there. It'll become ruined.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
We need time to figure it out. But this show is so good, and I'm so proud of what we built here, and we could not leave y'all gossipless heading into what is sure to be a nightmare few years. You deserve a good product and great stories. You deserve to be entertained. And so we are handing it off.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Uh-huh, uh-huh. AV guys also, in my experience, are stoners and are bribable. So...
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
It does seem like a fair trade to me to be like, you're going to smuggle this hot plate on. And in exchange, I've already done labor for you. The only thing I can think about is that since Josie is like keeper of secrets, this is now a secret that Tim has, which is ammo.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
No, no, no, no, no. The right answer here is to be like, thank you so much. And then you close the door.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
That's the question I have for you. Do you give away your hot plate for free? No. This is a bartering economy. You've got to be bartering. Like, you don't need money for it, but, like, what does Mira have that you could have?
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
The podcast will stay in-house at Defector Media, where Alex will still keep an eye on it as supervising producer. We will stay with Radiotopia, and I will still be around and involved like some kind of overbearing auntie. This is a peaceful transition of power. You will be in new, beautiful, brilliant hands. I am thrilled, beyond belief even, shaking.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Everything I'm learning about working on a cruise is making me less happy about it. Like, you don't get to drink. They can drug test you at any moment. Like, it sounds like the whole cruise ship is actually sea jail.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Right now, to be honest, I'm feeling pretty good. Two people have hot plates, which is way more than we thought we're going to have hot plates. I seem to have a very solid ally in Tim, the AV guy. I'm okay for now, but I'm still worried about us being on a boat. That is concerning to me. I'm not a very good swimmer. I'm worried.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I mean, this is like, oh, I like this girl's making me crazy. Like, I don't know her. But I something I truly cannot tolerate is people who act like they're hot shit when they're still in a really small pond. Yeah, you're the hottest girl on the cruise ship. But we are in international waters.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I'm so excited to introduce to you the new host of Normal Gossip, America's next top Normal Gossip host with podcast absolute best friend, Rachel fucking Hampton. Rachel, hello.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
This is a hard one because... One, I've been led to believe that relationships on this beautiful ship are short-lived and filled with animosity. So I would be more happy to trade Tim himself, the hot plate, for Xanax than I am to give it to a bartender, right? Like, I'm like, what I don't want is for my hot plate to just be gone.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
In theory, I would like to be able to get my hot plate back in the future with another illicit trade. I don't love it. But Mira sounds really fucking annoying.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Oh, this is such a bad idea. This is so bad. Like that hot plate is not coming back, girl. Like you traded it for something. The edibles are gone. So you need to trade her something else to get the hot plate back.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I can't tell you how excited I am. The thing is, like, the handover isn't even in the future. It starts right now. This episode is being produced by Rachel's partner in crime, Sierra Spragley-Rix. These are the very last moments that I am in charge. And because I am in charge for, like, a couple more minutes, I'm going to brag about you, Rachel. I'm so sorry. Uh-oh. Scary. Scary. I don't know.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
No, I can barely remember if it was like a trade or if it was a gift. My instinct is that with someone like Mira, it doesn't matter. Like your memory isn't a video recorder. You can't like be like run the fucking tapes back. Like this isn't reality television. So like you have to kind of go off what each person remembers, which means you're going to have a different version of events.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I just think that people need to know that like you have been in this show's DNA from the beginning. You were the second episode we ever recorded. That story became season one's Can I Say Something Bitchy, which people still say is their favorite episode. When we wanted to try out a live show a million years ago, you did us a favor and were the guest.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Yeah, no, it is. That kind of, like, stubborn, you know, two bulls running at each other problem. And, like... I don't know. I saw this coming. I saw it coming. You can't be reasonable if both of you are stubborn. You're in trouble.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
It's like the entire process of having a sister is being like, well, actually, I stole these jeans because of, you know, something you said to me eight years ago that has haunted me in my sleep. And I hope it makes you cry, right? Like, that's...
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Oh, absolutely not. It's none of my business. You brought me in here. You're going to give me a drunk, rowdy crowd. You made it my business. You could have just served doubles and not told me.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
No, no, no. I just remembered that you said the word Titanic twice at the top of this episode and now I'm filled with terror. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Literally the only thing I can think of that's positive here is that probably you die pretty fast because, like, the water is deep and cold. That's, no, absolutely not. I also am, like, you have a bunch of, like, people with a lot of money on this ship.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
So, like, they are not going to behave well in an emergency. No.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Like not to make you cry, but like you're fucking brilliant. Like after Rachel joined Defector this summer, she came to all of our meetings and helped with the stories and gave notes on the episodes. Oh my God. Stop.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Okay, so the boat is docked. Most of the crew is off the ship because they are on a journey to get their passports stamped to see penguins. And I need to get into Mira's room. Mira's key is in her bra, so I can't pickpocket it from her unless I'm willing to do some truly deranged things.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
And I'm her boss. Yeah, that's important. I forgot that. Other people have room keys in general. I assume janitors would have like some kind of universal key. And janitors, it feels like at this point you might be friends with one. So you could maybe just gab it up and lift those keys.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
You already love her work. I'm crying because I have so much faith in her. It's ridiculous. There's no one I would have handed this show off to except for Rachel. Rachel, as a water sign, are you thrilled that I have cried on the podcast for the first time?
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Oh, perfect. Great. You know what? I think it's time to deboard. The scientists seem like they probably have a nice little house that is not on the water. And I'm going to be going there and I'm going to be saying hello. Thank you so much for your service to the national sciences. Please. Can I come in?
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
What do you do? Well, death is imminent, so... mira is no longer my problem the doctors are no longer my problem um i'm going to wherever captain jack sparrow is because i believe that he probably has a separate lifeboat for him um and i'll be there i'm not i'm not doing any of this shit yeah yeah the entire crew was trying to get her to shut the fuck up the guests are really confused and scared
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Perfect. This is like when you're on a plane and you pull out from the gate and then they're like, I'm so sorry, y'all. We're going to have to go back to the gate. It's like, no, no, no. Just take off.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
My body hurts. Um... I feel really stressed. Um... Everyone is a nightmare on this ship, including this ship. Um... I guess I'm on Tim's side. He doesn't seem to have done anything wrong. And he seems really good at smuggling stuff, which to me is a benefit in a person. I don't think I can be on Mira or Josie's side at this point because I'm like, you're both making me crazy.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Wow. I'm so happy for her. You know what? Actually, everyone kind of got what they wanted in this story. Tim got money.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Josie stops being on a cruise, which is hell, and entered a different kind of cruise, which is Disney World. And Mira gets to be the star. Like she will be the biggest star in Topeka. I believe in her. Same. Wow. That's the story, Kelsey. That's the gossip. How do you feel? I feel great. I'm so proud of you. This was so good. I loved it. Very, very stressful inside my body.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Kelsey, how do you feel? I feel emotional, more emotional than I expected. But really, I mean, doing this has been one of the highlights of my career. It's an honor to bring these insane stories 20 weeks a year to the people. Like, I'm so, so grateful to everyone who listens and tells their friends to listen, who sent in gossip and who loves our work. And like,
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
As of right now, Rachel's in charge. I'm fucking thrilled. I'm so excited. Like I finally get to do what everyone else gets to do, which is listen to these stories like for the first time and freak out. Like I can't wait to do that. And as your first benevolent act, I get to be the guest today on your first episode, which is so exciting for me. Rachel, are you ready? I think I am.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Oh, my God. Okay. To be honest, I'm, like, a little nervous. Like, I probably should have done this earlier because I'm, like, our poor guests, right? Like, I'm, like, I don't know what's coming. I don't know what you're going to say to me. Like, I had to pick a gossip story, and I was, like, oh, no. Yeah.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
So when I started hosting the show, I do think our kind of relationship to gossip was a little different as a culture. We spent a lot of the first season trying to convince people that gossip was not evil. And that really isn't something you have to do as often anymore. Like, there's just one.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
way more gossip in the world and way more positive feelings toward gossip, like a pendulum is kind of swinging. So I think when I started the show, my relationship with gossip was still like a little tentative. I kind of came into it as like, oh, you know, here's this thing that I love that people say is bad. Here's this way that I view it that I want other people to view it.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
And that really has changed. I And I think now I think about gossip all the time. I've thought about it constantly for so long, right? Like I wrote a whole book about it and it's like the only thing I've been able to think about for years.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
So I think my relationship with it now is much more professional, first off, but I'm also just inundated with gossip now because every single person who I ever meet is like, here's a little morsel. Would you like it? And so I am eating.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Yeah, I mean, I do think that that's probably true on some level. It is funny that now I feel like, I mean, don't read the comments, etc. But we do get criticism sometimes for people who are like, why are you talking about the importance that gossip has in the world? Everybody already knows this. And I'm like, well, all right, one, not everyone. Two, like, that wasn't true when we started.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today is a very special day. Things are changing. And while change can be a little scary, I ask that you trust us. We believe that while this is a big change, it's going to be a fucking great one.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
And I think it's hard. It has been often hard for me to remember that like, The culture has changed and we were part of that change. And I'm happier for it because the stories are fucking better, right? Like people are going straight to Cam on TikTok with the craziest shit you've ever heard, which is mama mia, what a gift, you know?
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Oh, my God. I do. Okay. So I know this girl, right? Well, I don't know her. A friend of a friend knows her. And she has this terrible boss, right? Like, he's the kind of guy who, like, never wears shoes in the office. Ew. Yeah. And, like, brings his dog in even though people on his staff are allergic. Rude. Yeah. And this is, like, gross tech company, right? So she, like, works all the time.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
She's miserable. Yeah. And one day they're like, hey, we need you to run out and get champagne because it's your boss's birthday. And she's like, okay. So she goes to the grocery store. She's in this, like, huge rush. And the checkout clerk is, like, trying to gab with her, right? Like, he's like, you know, how's your day? How's it going? And she's, like, flustered.
Normal Gossip
The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
And she's like, I'm so sorry, but, like, can you please hurry? Yeah.
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
And then he slows down. He's like taking the bottle really slowly off the conveyor belt. He's like, you know, trying to scan the bottle like halfheartedly. It's like not scanning. And she's like, I'm going to lose my fucking mind. Yeah. Then the bottle like kind of slips and it catches, you know, on the edge of that like scale thing. And it fucking shatters. I mean, glass everywhere.
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Glass in his hair, glass in her hair, like sticky champagne fucking on the ceiling, right? Everywhere. Oh, my God. Help hazard. And this girl, because she is like so worked up about this terrible job that she has with this terrible boss, is like... Oh, my God. Like, I can't believe this. I'm in a rush. This is ridiculous.
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
The other thing is that she's kind of raised her voice at him by being like, this is ridiculous. She has gotten a little sharp. And so she's embarrassed. She's like, I'm not really the kind of person who yells. I definitely don't want to be the kind of person who yells at a checkout guy at the grocery store. And so she's like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. It's an accident.
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I did not mean to yell at you. And then she looks up and makes eye contact. And he is like, so, so, so hot Ugh. Keep going. Like, what kind of game do you have? What would you do here?
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
Yes, exactly. And our girl has like no game, but she is good at apologizing. So she's like, I'm so sorry. She's like swooning. Right. And he's like, what kind of person yells at a checkout guy? But there's a wink in his voice. So it's really more like, what kind of person yells at a checkout guy? I think I want to know that kind of person. And then she's like a bad person.
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
And he's like, hmm, I don't know about that. And then they went out for drinks after his shift was over and they got married. Yes!
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
When Alex and I first started working on this podcast in earnest, I was kind of doing it as a bit. Like I'd never hosted a podcast before. I'd never written a script. It was just this weird and funny thing we were doing. And then obviously it became so much more than that. But the thing about creative work of any kind is that it requires passion and energy.
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I was like, I know my girls are romantic, so I'm going to bring her this cutesy little story.
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The Suite Life of Rachelle and Kelsey
I've already... There's so many things I hate happening in here. Like... Something I think I have kept decently concealed throughout the time as the host of this podcast is that the type of person I have the most like struggles with in my interpersonal life is these people, right?