Joseph Cox

And it almost became like this endless cycle or spiral where it just started to become exceptionally difficult for the FBI to maintain tempo, is the way they described it.

Anom phones, as I found through reporting this book, they absolutely landed on American soil. There were Anom phones being used inside the United States. there was a plan for the FBI to start reading those messages. But it was very difficult for them to figure out what to do with all this information they collected. They are basically stonewalled in being able to look at U.S. communications.

Anom phones, as I found through reporting this book, they absolutely landed on American soil. There were Anom phones being used inside the United States. there was a plan for the FBI to start reading those messages. But it was very difficult for them to figure out what to do with all this information they collected. They are basically stonewalled in being able to look at U.S. communications.

There just didn't seem to be the appetite to go after people inside the states, even though the prosecutors and the agents on the case very, very much wanted to. They were ready to do it. They were collaborating with a field office in Los Angeles as well. It was just a matter of basically pulling the switch, but higher-ups in the DOJ shut that down, essentially.

There just didn't seem to be the appetite to go after people inside the states, even though the prosecutors and the agents on the case very, very much wanted to. They were ready to do it. They were collaborating with a field office in Los Angeles as well. It was just a matter of basically pulling the switch, but higher-ups in the DOJ shut that down, essentially.

Yeah, so what happened when it was first approved for the FBI to gain access to the messages in general was that most drug prosecutors in San Diego in a specific meeting I describe, they were like, no, this is a ridiculous idea. You can't do this.

Yeah, so what happened when it was first approved for the FBI to gain access to the messages in general was that most drug prosecutors in San Diego in a specific meeting I describe, they were like, no, this is a ridiculous idea. You can't do this.

Yes, exactly. They were like, please don't look at the US messages. We will figure that out later. And what happened was that the prosecutors on that, they send their requests to a specific part of the DOJ called the Office of Enforcement Operations. And they're the ones who basically approve every wiretap. If you want a wiretap in the US, they have to approve it.

Yes, exactly. They were like, please don't look at the US messages. We will figure that out later. And what happened was that the prosecutors on that, they send their requests to a specific part of the DOJ called the Office of Enforcement Operations. And they're the ones who basically approve every wiretap. If you want a wiretap in the US, they have to approve it.

And the prosecutors on the Anom case sent that, and... OEO just sat on it for months and months and months. There was clearly this divide between the cowboys on the Anom case and then the more senior people in DOJ who were just like, we're absolutely not approving this.

And the prosecutors on the Anom case sent that, and... OEO just sat on it for months and months and months. There was clearly this divide between the cowboys on the Anom case and then the more senior people in DOJ who were just like, we're absolutely not approving this.

And Anom obviously grew to a massive size even without that, but it could have grown even bigger with potentially even more disastrous consequences.

And Anom obviously grew to a massive size even without that, but it could have grown even bigger with potentially even more disastrous consequences.

Yeah, I absolutely think there should be a debate around whether secretly running a tech company should be allowed. There should be a debate on whether we want to be able to hack into entire telecommunications providers. Maybe the end result of that conversation is that we as a society are okay with the trade-offs.

Yeah, I absolutely think there should be a debate around whether secretly running a tech company should be allowed. There should be a debate on whether we want to be able to hack into entire telecommunications providers. Maybe the end result of that conversation is that we as a society are okay with the trade-offs.

But I don't think ordinary members of the public, one, first, even though this is basically happening, and second of all, aren't aware of what those trade-offs even are. Like, how can we even have that conversation when this is basically done in the shadows and then everybody moves on?

But I don't think ordinary members of the public, one, first, even though this is basically happening, and second of all, aren't aware of what those trade-offs even are. Like, how can we even have that conversation when this is basically done in the shadows and then everybody moves on?

I mean, there's no two ways about it. The FBI facilitated crime with the development and the ongoing maintenance and the secret running of Anom. The FBI was a tech backbone of organized crime. Now, yes, of course, they also had the surveillance capability as well, but they were selling a product to criminals, and the criminals were making great use of it.

I mean, there's no two ways about it. The FBI facilitated crime with the development and the ongoing maintenance and the secret running of Anom. The FBI was a tech backbone of organized crime. Now, yes, of course, they also had the surveillance capability as well, but they were selling a product to criminals, and the criminals were making great use of it.

It's like the ends justify the means in some way. I think that is how people who worked in the operation would phrase it. And as for the ethical responsibility, from everybody I've spoken to, they did take the ethical consideration seriously. Like, we're running this communications platform, and that's why if a murder does flow across...