Jonathan Swan
Appearances
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
You had people online scraping up information about her, ostensibly from her divorce, and making it public. This is what I mean by feral. You know, Brenna Bird, who's the popular attorney general of Iowa, she writes this opinion column in Breitbart News saying that Washington politicians are trying to obstruct Trump's administration. And she didn't mention Ernst, but her message was very clear.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
I mean, coming from someone of her stature in the state, that was a really big deal. And then you had the money side.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So you have this dark money group that Elon Musk has used for political spending. That group starts running digital ads in Iowa.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Calling on people to urge their senator to vote for Hegseth. And no prizes for guessing which senator the ads were referring to. Right. So it's all of the above. It's the threat of big money coming in against you, you know, with Musk and his billionaire friends. It's people in the state that have real power, Brenna Byrd.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
And then it's the most influential figures on the right who have real followings and have the ability to activate the most intense faction within the Trump base. Very unpleasant. It makes your life miserable if you're a sitting senator and that's what comes down on you.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
That's right. And none of these people would say this, but it's absolutely a fact that when pressure campaigns like this happen, there's the fear of... some crazy supporter committing an act of violence or coming up to you and harassing you in person. I mean, it's a factor. It's a factor in this era.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
I mean, I've seen these pressure campaigns before from Trump's movement, and this might be the fastest effect that I've ever seen.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Within 72 hours after this campaign really kicked off, she meets with him again and she puts out this statement and her language was unrecognizable.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
He will continue, she says, to support the roles of both servicemen and women. As I support Pete through this process. And as I support Pete through this process, so that's very different. She's now saying she's supporting him through this process. The second half of the statement was even more remarkable.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
I look forward to a hearing based on truth, not anonymous sources. So those last three words, those are the talking points of the Trump team. I mean, to say a hearing based on truth, not anonymous sources, you're essentially setting up two categories. You're saying there are statements that are true and there are statements or accusations made by anonymous sources that are therefore false.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
And so by doing that, given that the accusations against Pete Hegseth are from anonymous sources, you are invalidating on its face the accusations against Pete Hegseth. The fact that she's willing to support me through this process means a lot. And pretty quickly, we saw Hegseth make some comments that indicate that he seems to believe he's got her vote.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Now, it's worth noting, in this statement, Hegseth also seemed to back off his earlier position about not supporting women in the military. Some of our greatest warriors, our best warriors out there are women. And Ernst says this is based on a pledge he made to her in that second meeting.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
It's all a little vague, but essentially this is why she claims she's softening her position on him, that he's made concessions on issues that matter to her. And to be clear, she's still not coming right out and saying he absolutely has her vote, but she certainly seems to have reversed course and put herself in a situation where, at this point, it's very hard to imagine her backing out.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
She would, if she did that, be a pariah with the MAGA base. They would make sure of that. And just from her actions so far, it seems pretty clear that she wants to stay on the right side of the Trump movement.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Absolutely. And when I talk to people close to President-elect Trump and people who work for him, people on the outside, allies, they already see this as a resounding success. You know, they will say, look, who knows, maybe more accusations will come out against Pete Hexeth. Maybe we end up losing four senators and he goes down.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
But even if that happens, they see this as a cautionary tale for Republicans. They are putting Republicans on notice that they're not going to tolerate dissent. They're not going to tolerate opposition to Donald Trump anymore. during his return to Washington.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
And by making such a fight of this, by publicly forcing these senators to bend the knee, they are creating a template for what we're likely to see next year as Trump tries to pass legislation, as he inevitably does controversial things that will make some senators squeamish. The Trump team is sending out the message now there will be a very steep cost. if you go against Donald Trump.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Well, Jonathan, thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Well, Trump himself is starting to have second thoughts about Hegseth. I was actually in Palm Beach two weeks ago when this is all happening, meeting with Trump officials, talking to advisors of his, and... I can't overstate to you how universal the view was in Trump's inner circle that Hegseth was done.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Donald Trump was criticizing him behind his back, saying, you know, he could have told me about all this stuff. You know, he was seeing the negative stories. He wasn't happy about them. And so Trump actually starts to think about picking a replacement for Hegseth. The ultimate sign that he's done with you. Totally. And he started to court Ron DeSantis.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
They didn't only defeat him. It was personal, as you say. And for many people on Trump's team, it's deeply personal. Susie Wiles, who's going to come in as Trump's chief of staff, used to work for Ron DeSantis, left on very bad terms with him. There are others on the team who used to work for him. None of them like Ron DeSantis. So...
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
As soon as Trump's advisers realise that he's actually serious about the DeSantis idea, there is a panic. Many people go into gear of how do we kill this? At the same time, there are others in Trump's orbit, some of the same people, but different people like Steve Bannon and others, who thought that...
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
There was actually something larger at play that if he allowed Pete Hegseth to be blocked by Senate Republicans, that would set the tone for the rest of his administration. That was the argument that they were making to Trump indirectly, in some cases directly. But basically what they were saying was, you already let one person go.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Matt Gaetz, right? Trump put up Matt Gaetz for Attorney General, which horrified Republicans. And within a very short period of time, it became clear that he wasn't going to have the votes and he quit. People like Steve Bannon and others in Trump's orbit thought that was a really bad message. They thought at a minimum, strategically, they should have kept Matt Gaetz in because...
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Him soaking up all the media attention and controversy actually is useful because Trump has a whole bunch of other controversial picks and they can slide through with less media attention. But also letting him quit was a bad idea in terms of setting the terms of Trump's return to Washington. in terms of the power template, in terms of Trump saying, I'm the king around here.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
So what they wanted to do with Hegseth, they decided very quickly, like within 24 hours, was we're going to turn him into a cause. We're going to make him sort of a Brett Kavanaugh type figure. And we are going to make this a litmus test for Republicans defying Donald Trump. And if you dare step out of line... the mob is going to come for you, the online mob, the pressure, the constituents.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
We are going to make you toxic with the Republican base.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Well, two things happened. One, Pete Hegseth and his team decide they're going to abandon the sort of traditional Washington playbook of keeping your head down, talking to senators, but not making this a huge spectacle. Trump wanted to see a spectacle. He picked Hegseth in the first place because he liked watching him on Fox News. So Trump encouraged Hegseth to get out there.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Hegseth does these sort of defiant interviews and performances.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
His mother goes on Fox & Friends.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
in this highly unusual performance.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Where she renounces a letter she sent him in 2018, where she took him to task for his treatment of women.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
Right. And then the second part is basically, you know, it's an intimidation strategy. It's we need to get our most powerful allies in terms of who has the biggest following with the Republican base, who are most effective at whipping up anger and emotion in the base, and set them onto the wavering senators. And Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa became their number one target.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
She was seen as the biggest problem. So all pressure was focused on her. Obviously others too, but she was the focal point.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
You had influential MAGA figures with huge audiences. I mean, these people have millions and millions of followers between them.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
People like Kirk were threatening to recruit a primary challenger against Ernst. Remember, she's going to be running again in 2026, so this carries real weight.
The Daily
Pete Hegseth Was Toast. The MAGA Swarm Came to His Rescue.
I mean, it's feral. Nothing is off the table. Get on the phone and start tweeting at Joni Ernst. They sent threatening posts on social media. They urged their listeners on their radio shows to pressure Ernst and to call her congressional office. Get on the phone. Folks, this stuff matters. And that then kicks off this whole movement, and it gets really personal and close to home.