Jessica Badalana

Well, if you're not familiar with Book It, this was a literacy program. It started about 40 years ago, and you would get a punch card. And for every book you'd read, you'd get a punch on your punch card. And once your punch card was filled, you could turn it in for free six-inch personal pan pizza.

Well, if you're not familiar with Book It, this was a literacy program. It started about 40 years ago, and you would get a punch card. And for every book you'd read, you'd get a punch on your punch card. And once your punch card was filled, you could turn it in for free six-inch personal pan pizza.

Bye.

Bye.

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake. Now let's head into today's pizza questions. Let's do it.

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake. Now let's head into today's pizza questions. Let's do it.

Valerie's been on a journey. She's top rack, bottom rack, high heat, low heat.

Valerie's been on a journey. She's top rack, bottom rack, high heat, low heat.

You got to experiment. Yep. I mean, it takes a little bit of effort, I think, to get to know your oven. But it sounds like that is maybe not the main issue. And one of the things that took me a very long time to learn, maybe because I was raised on Pizza Hut pizzas, is more toppings is not necessarily better when it comes to pizza. Mm-hmm.

You got to experiment. Yep. I mean, it takes a little bit of effort, I think, to get to know your oven. But it sounds like that is maybe not the main issue. And one of the things that took me a very long time to learn, maybe because I was raised on Pizza Hut pizzas, is more toppings is not necessarily better when it comes to pizza. Mm-hmm.

And I think a common pitfall is that, well, one of two things. Folks really load up their pizza with sauce, which is wet, and toppings, which both weigh down and add moisture. There's also the problem of what you've done or not done to your toppings before you put them on your pizza. If you're putting raw mushrooms, raw spinach, raw peppers, you see the theme here, raw things, you

And I think a common pitfall is that, well, one of two things. Folks really load up their pizza with sauce, which is wet, and toppings, which both weigh down and add moisture. There's also the problem of what you've done or not done to your toppings before you put them on your pizza. If you're putting raw mushrooms, raw spinach, raw peppers, you see the theme here, raw things, you

That will then release moisture as they cook. Like that moisture has nowhere to go. It's not baking for long enough that the moisture evaporates. And so that moisture from the vegetables just sinks in with the moisture from the sauce and it sogs out your crust, particularly in the middle. So I would say, you know, if you're not already doing this to do to just...

That will then release moisture as they cook. Like that moisture has nowhere to go. It's not baking for long enough that the moisture evaporates. And so that moisture from the vegetables just sinks in with the moisture from the sauce and it sogs out your crust, particularly in the middle. So I would say, you know, if you're not already doing this to do to just...

You know, sort of apply sauce and toppings more judiciously than you think. And to give, you know, vegetables a little bit of a treatment before you put them on there. So saute your peppers and onions, saute your mushrooms or your greens so that everything that's going on has released some moisture already. is par cooked. And I think that would help the soggy center situation.

You know, sort of apply sauce and toppings more judiciously than you think. And to give, you know, vegetables a little bit of a treatment before you put them on there. So saute your peppers and onions, saute your mushrooms or your greens so that everything that's going on has released some moisture already. is par cooked. And I think that would help the soggy center situation.

And I mean, for a nerd like me, who spent most of her time in the library, I love to read. I had few friends. I loved pizza. I mean, it was basically the book it was designed for rural nerds like me. And I filled out those punch cards like nobody's business.

And I mean, for a nerd like me, who spent most of her time in the library, I love to read. I had few friends. I loved pizza. I mean, it was basically the book it was designed for rural nerds like me. And I filled out those punch cards like nobody's business.

You taught me it. You taught me this term.

You taught me it. You taught me this term.

I know we talked about baking stones and steels with Dan earlier, but for people who don't know David, can you explain what they are and how to use them?

I know we talked about baking stones and steels with Dan earlier, but for people who don't know David, can you explain what they are and how to use them?

And I think that that bottom heat right away will really help. And then if you find, you know, you get your bottom as brown as you want it to be and your toppings are still a little pale, you can always just pop it under the broiler for a minute or two. So, you know, you can do like dual sort of dual heat sources to achieve that perfect bake.

And I think that that bottom heat right away will really help. And then if you find, you know, you get your bottom as brown as you want it to be and your toppings are still a little pale, you can always just pop it under the broiler for a minute or two. So, you know, you can do like dual sort of dual heat sources to achieve that perfect bake.

Great. Well, I hope that helps, Valerie. Good luck to you.

Great. Well, I hope that helps, Valerie. Good luck to you.

This is. I mean, I was waiting for somebody to ask this question because this is like it's the curse of the amoeba pizza. You know, it's everything's well and good. You have your nice round pizza on your pizza peel. Then you go to put it in the oven, slide it off the peel. It sticks. It rolls upon itself. And you have like a total catastrophe.

This is. I mean, I was waiting for somebody to ask this question because this is like it's the curse of the amoeba pizza. You know, it's everything's well and good. You have your nice round pizza on your pizza peel. Then you go to put it in the oven, slide it off the peel. It sticks. It rolls upon itself. And you have like a total catastrophe.

I read all the books. Did you not read the books?

I read all the books. Did you not read the books?

This has happened to me more times than I would like to admit.

This has happened to me more times than I would like to admit.

Oh, I mean, I think this is one of the problems that most beginning home pizza bakers struggle with.

Oh, I mean, I think this is one of the problems that most beginning home pizza bakers struggle with.

This is how the calzone was born, to be honest. The calzone was an accident.

This is how the calzone was born, to be honest. The calzone was an accident.

Okay, so I use semolina or cornmeal on my pizza peel. And then I shape my dough most of the way on a floured surface. And when it's most of the way to the size that I want it to be, then I transfer it over to the peel. But then the clock is ticking. Like I'll finish stretching it just to get the size that I want it to be. But then it's like, you got to go.

Okay, so I use semolina or cornmeal on my pizza peel. And then I shape my dough most of the way on a floured surface. And when it's most of the way to the size that I want it to be, then I transfer it over to the peel. But then the clock is ticking. Like I'll finish stretching it just to get the size that I want it to be. But then it's like, you got to go.

Like then you need to top it and you need to get in the oven. And then this just recently happened with my brother. He and I were making pizzas together and he got immediately like cracking on forming the second one. So we had one in the oven and then he started to build the second one on the pizza peel. But the one in the oven, you know, it took 10 minutes.

Like then you need to top it and you need to get in the oven. And then this just recently happened with my brother. He and I were making pizzas together and he got immediately like cracking on forming the second one. So we had one in the oven and then he started to build the second one on the pizza peel. But the one in the oven, you know, it took 10 minutes.

And meanwhile, that dough is sitting on the peel. getting stickier and stickier and stickier.

And meanwhile, that dough is sitting on the peel. getting stickier and stickier and stickier.

And, you know, I hear people say like, oh, just check if it's sticking and you can lift up the edge and throw some more semolina or cornmeal under it. Well, good luck to you. Like doing that with a top pizza, I think it's really challenging. But, you know, when inevitably it happens that your pizza rolls in on itself.

And, you know, I hear people say like, oh, just check if it's sticking and you can lift up the edge and throw some more semolina or cornmeal under it. Well, good luck to you. Like doing that with a top pizza, I think it's really challenging. But, you know, when inevitably it happens that your pizza rolls in on itself.

I mean, if you discover it's sticking before you get in the oven, like just go calzone, just fold over that dough on itself.

I mean, if you discover it's sticking before you get in the oven, like just go calzone, just fold over that dough on itself.

Because calzones are delicious.

Because calzones are delicious.

And I'm Jessica Badalana, Staff Editor at King Arthur Baking. Today we are talking about a topic that is very near and dear to our hearts, pizza. Pizza. You know, you and I have been talking a lot about pizza in recent weeks.

And I'm Jessica Badalana, Staff Editor at King Arthur Baking. Today we are talking about a topic that is very near and dear to our hearts, pizza. Pizza. You know, you and I have been talking a lot about pizza in recent weeks.

Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

Solid advice. I think we have one more question. Let's hear it.

Solid advice. I think we have one more question. Let's hear it.

I'm about to blow your mind. Okay. So I, my preferred, well, first of all, there's nothing wrong with eating pizza cold out of the fridge.

I'm about to blow your mind. Okay. So I, my preferred, well, first of all, there's nothing wrong with eating pizza cold out of the fridge.

One of the universe's greatest foods.

One of the universe's greatest foods.

There's enough to do. There are enough problems. But if you want hot leftover pizza, first of all, never in the microwave. Tragedy. I reheat mine. My slice is in a frying pan. Wait for it.

There's enough to do. There are enough problems. But if you want hot leftover pizza, first of all, never in the microwave. Tragedy. I reheat mine. My slice is in a frying pan. Wait for it.

Cheese side down.

Cheese side down.

Because if you do just the bottom, you know, crust side down, what happens is like the bottom gets hot and crispy, but the top, like the cheese is still like leathery. So I started cheese side down. I don't believe this. How does this work?

Because if you do just the bottom, you know, crust side down, what happens is like the bottom gets hot and crispy, but the top, like the cheese is still like leathery. So I started cheese side down. I don't believe this. How does this work?

Yeah, nonstick skillet.

Yeah, nonstick skillet.

Cheese side down. Just do it at moderate heat. And then once the cheese gets warm, I just will like flip it over for just a minute. And then the bottom sort of browns in the cheese grease. Am I a genius or am I a genius?

Cheese side down. Just do it at moderate heat. And then once the cheese gets warm, I just will like flip it over for just a minute. And then the bottom sort of browns in the cheese grease. Am I a genius or am I a genius?

And it's perfect.

And it's perfect.

It's inspired.

It's inspired.

I want you to try it immediately and tell me what happens. But I also think because, you know, the other pitfall of like a lot of the other methods, like if you just put it in the oven, like it becomes like a cracker, like it dries out too much. But God, I do love cold pizza.

I want you to try it immediately and tell me what happens. But I also think because, you know, the other pitfall of like a lot of the other methods, like if you just put it in the oven, like it becomes like a cracker, like it dries out too much. But God, I do love cold pizza.

I do. I do. And I remember the pizza also just so well. The sauce is really sweet. It's good. There was a lot of cheese, generously applied cheese. I'd have that tumbler of root beer. Life was good.

I do. I do. And I remember the pizza also just so well. The sauce is really sweet. It's good. There was a lot of cheese, generously applied cheese. I'd have that tumbler of root beer. Life was good.

every episode we'd like to check in with jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head well i'm actually you know what this week i'm gonna stop you there because this week i mean of course i have no shortage of opinions but i think i know that you have a full-throated oh and wildly surprising you're gonna turn this around on me okay i am yep i am i'm gonna get canceled for this um

every episode we'd like to check in with jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head well i'm actually you know what this week i'm gonna stop you there because this week i mean of course i have no shortage of opinions but i think i know that you have a full-throated oh and wildly surprising you're gonna turn this around on me okay i am yep i am i'm gonna get canceled for this um

But like,

But like,

This is perhaps the original pizza.

This is perhaps the original pizza.

I mean, I like a red pizza. I think you're wrong. I like cheese on my pizza. In fact, if I may counter yours, I actually prefer white pizzas to red pizzas.

I mean, I like a red pizza. I think you're wrong. I like cheese on my pizza. In fact, if I may counter yours, I actually prefer white pizzas to red pizzas.

I just wanted to expose you.

I just wanted to expose you.

Yeah. I mean, if I'm yeah, if I look at a pizza menu at a pizza restaurant and I see, you know, a white option, that's interesting. I will always get that over the red option.

Yeah. I mean, if I'm yeah, if I look at a pizza menu at a pizza restaurant and I see, you know, a white option, that's interesting. I will always get that over the red option.

And, you know, whether or not it's a Pizza Hut memory, I think like a lot of our listeners can probably relate to those early like starry eyed pizza memories, whether it was at the brightly lit pizza parlor in the suburbs, you know, the ones that always sponsor like the little league teams, or for kids that grew up in the city, like...

And, you know, whether or not it's a Pizza Hut memory, I think like a lot of our listeners can probably relate to those early like starry eyed pizza memories, whether it was at the brightly lit pizza parlor in the suburbs, you know, the ones that always sponsor like the little league teams, or for kids that grew up in the city, like...

Well, maybe we can because we're like, you know, yin and yang.

Well, maybe we can because we're like, you know, yin and yang.

There's no bad pizza. We are out of time. But before we go, I have one question for you, David, which is what are you baking this week?

There's no bad pizza. We are out of time. But before we go, I have one question for you, David, which is what are you baking this week?

Man, I don't know if I've ever had a Hostess cupcake.

Man, I don't know if I've ever had a Hostess cupcake.

But I have had this cake. And I think that hot milk method is very interesting because you're combining your sugar and eggs, and then you're heating up your milk and your fat and adding that. And it results in a cake with just a very fine texture. It's really tender.

But I have had this cake. And I think that hot milk method is very interesting because you're combining your sugar and eggs, and then you're heating up your milk and your fat and adding that. And it results in a cake with just a very fine texture. It's really tender.

Very plush in the way that like a, you know, a box cake is.

Very plush in the way that like a, you know, a box cake is.

I mean, I guess we both have sweets on the brain and I'm going to make the peanut butter brownies that are on our site. You know, I did a beta test. So we have a recipe for small batch brownies, which makes a loaf pan of brownies.

I mean, I guess we both have sweets on the brain and I'm going to make the peanut butter brownies that are on our site. You know, I did a beta test. So we have a recipe for small batch brownies, which makes a loaf pan of brownies.

I was so excited about them and I made them. But you know what? Frankly, we're not really a small batch family because we ate that batch of brownies like so fast. And I did. I took the small batch brownie recipe and I took a scaled down version of the peanut butter swirl from the peanut butter brownies, which makes a nine by 13. And so I made a small batch. peanut butter brownie.

I was so excited about them and I made them. But you know what? Frankly, we're not really a small batch family because we ate that batch of brownies like so fast. And I did. I took the small batch brownie recipe and I took a scaled down version of the peanut butter swirl from the peanut butter brownies, which makes a nine by 13. And so I made a small batch. peanut butter brownie.

And that was good. But like I said, we ate it immediately. And so I now I'm ready to commit to the full nine by 13. I can put some of them in the freezer for later, but they are so delicious. So, you know, I don't mind having a big batch of those kicking around.

And that was good. But like I said, we ate it immediately. And so I now I'm ready to commit to the full nine by 13. I can put some of them in the freezer for later, but they are so delicious. So, you know, I don't mind having a big batch of those kicking around.

Oh, agreed on that.

Oh, agreed on that.

Finally, finally, something we can agree on. Well, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.

Finally, finally, something we can agree on. Well, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.

a slice at an iconic New York City slice shop, which I didn't have until I was in college, you know, but is where I imagine New York toddlers take like their first bite of solid food is at these like anywhere.

a slice at an iconic New York City slice shop, which I didn't have until I was in college, you know, but is where I imagine New York toddlers take like their first bite of solid food is at these like anywhere.

And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend.

And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend.

And me, Jessica Batalana.

And me, Jessica Batalana.

You'll find some of our favorite pizza recipes as well as other recipes for what we're baking this week in the show notes. This episode featured Dan Richer, author of New York Times bestseller, The Joy of Pizza. He's also the owner of Raza in New Jersey. And you can learn more about his book by going to thejoyofpizzabook.com. And it's also linked in the show notes.

You'll find some of our favorite pizza recipes as well as other recipes for what we're baking this week in the show notes. This episode featured Dan Richer, author of New York Times bestseller, The Joy of Pizza. He's also the owner of Raza in New Jersey. And you can learn more about his book by going to thejoyofpizzabook.com. And it's also linked in the show notes.

Totally. I mean, or like the basement sleepovers where we scarf down slices of takeout pizza. Like I think that pizza is one of it's one of our first foods. And thus we have a lot of strong associations with it. And pizza, I feel like it sort of grows with us. You start off with these after school slices or the sleepover pizzas or the bucket pizzas.

Totally. I mean, or like the basement sleepovers where we scarf down slices of takeout pizza. Like I think that pizza is one of it's one of our first foods. And thus we have a lot of strong associations with it. And pizza, I feel like it sort of grows with us. You start off with these after school slices or the sleepover pizzas or the bucket pizzas.

But before you know it, we're like dropping $25 on a Neapolitan pie in a moody restaurant drinking natural wine out of a mason jar. Yeah. And even when it's bad, you know, it's still kind of good. But lately, I think it's gotten very, very good.

But before you know it, we're like dropping $25 on a Neapolitan pie in a moody restaurant drinking natural wine out of a mason jar. Yeah. And even when it's bad, you know, it's still kind of good. But lately, I think it's gotten very, very good.

Well, you know, I have thoughts about this. I mean, Neapolitan pizza's over, David. It's over.

Well, you know, I have thoughts about this. I mean, Neapolitan pizza's over, David. It's over.

I mean, of course, I'm exaggerating. Neapolitan pizza is one of the greatest pizza styles in the world, and it's not going away. But for a long time, home bakers were solely trying to crack the code on making that style of pizza at home. And now I think they're broadening their scope to include other styles they're excited about, including thin crust pizzas. Americans love crispy things.

I mean, of course, I'm exaggerating. Neapolitan pizza is one of the greatest pizza styles in the world, and it's not going away. But for a long time, home bakers were solely trying to crack the code on making that style of pizza at home. And now I think they're broadening their scope to include other styles they're excited about, including thin crust pizzas. Americans love crispy things.

So it's not surprising to me that we've come back around to crispy pizza.

So it's not surprising to me that we've come back around to crispy pizza.

It's sort of interesting to me to think about during the pandemic, we saw this huge bread baking renaissance. People were making sourdough at home. And I think it was like around that same time, you know, when people were stuck at home that everyone got these pizza ovens, right?

It's sort of interesting to me to think about during the pandemic, we saw this huge bread baking renaissance. People were making sourdough at home. And I think it was like around that same time, you know, when people were stuck at home that everyone got these pizza ovens, right?

And you know, all of this conversation about pizza is in service of a project that we've been working on, which is a new pizza cookbook, which will be coming out spring of 2026. But all this conversation about pizza has definitely sent me down a sort of nostalgic road. And, you know, one of the first pizzas that I really remember eating was cheese pizza from Pizza Hut.

And you know, all of this conversation about pizza is in service of a project that we've been working on, which is a new pizza cookbook, which will be coming out spring of 2026. But all this conversation about pizza has definitely sent me down a sort of nostalgic road. And, you know, one of the first pizzas that I really remember eating was cheese pizza from Pizza Hut.

Like they weren't going so they could justify spending the money on a home pizza oven because they weren't going out as much. And then I so I think those two things sort of like rose at the same time. It was like people were making bread. Mm hmm. They were thinking about how dough is made. Then they got these pizza ovens. And now you sort of see this overlay of like, okay, what is pizza?

Like they weren't going so they could justify spending the money on a home pizza oven because they weren't going out as much. And then I so I think those two things sort of like rose at the same time. It was like people were making bread. Mm hmm. They were thinking about how dough is made. Then they got these pizza ovens. And now you sort of see this overlay of like, okay, what is pizza?

It's great bread with stuff on top.

It's great bread with stuff on top.

That's nice.

That's nice.

I would love to hear from you, like what you think is happening pizza-wise right now. Or if you're just, you know, I mean, maybe you just totally agree with me and there's nothing more to discuss.

I would love to hear from you, like what you think is happening pizza-wise right now. Or if you're just, you know, I mean, maybe you just totally agree with me and there's nothing more to discuss.

No dip tips. I love that. So that's just like when you're holding up a slice about to cram it in your mouth rather than the tip of the slice dripping down and staining your shirt. Happened to me many times. You know, it stays stiff and solid. So when you bite into it, you're just like, yeah, just crunching in.

No dip tips. I love that. So that's just like when you're holding up a slice about to cram it in your mouth rather than the tip of the slice dripping down and staining your shirt. Happened to me many times. You know, it stays stiff and solid. So when you bite into it, you're just like, yeah, just crunching in.

Yeah, and I think, well, I'm always excited to be talking about pizza, but today I'm also excited because we have an actual expert to talk to. Dan Richer from Raza Pizzeria in New Jersey. And Dan is also a proponent of the no dip tip.

Yeah, and I think, well, I'm always excited to be talking about pizza, but today I'm also excited because we have an actual expert to talk to. Dan Richer from Raza Pizzeria in New Jersey. And Dan is also a proponent of the no dip tip.

It's in. And there is no one more detail-oriented about making pizza at home than Dan. He wrote the New York Times bestseller, The Joy of Pizza. And that book delves so deeply into every aspect. I mean, there are graphs, there are charts. There's homework.

It's in. And there is no one more detail-oriented about making pizza at home than Dan. He wrote the New York Times bestseller, The Joy of Pizza. And that book delves so deeply into every aspect. I mean, there are graphs, there are charts. There's homework.

Dan, thank you so much for joining us.

Dan, thank you so much for joining us.

I think one of the pain points for a lot of people baking at home is figuring out how to make their home oven behave the way a pizza oven behaves. And I'd love to hear what you think is the best kind of home oven setup.

I think one of the pain points for a lot of people baking at home is figuring out how to make their home oven behave the way a pizza oven behaves. And I'd love to hear what you think is the best kind of home oven setup.

And I grew up in rural Vermont and going to Pizza Hut, it required a trip across state lines because the only Pizza Hut was across the river in New Hampshire. And it was a big deal. Like it felt sort of fancy there. You know, they had the faux Tiffany lanterns, the dark red leather banquets, and those giant 20 ounce red plastic tumblers. I mean, we didn't dress up for it, but we could have.

And I grew up in rural Vermont and going to Pizza Hut, it required a trip across state lines because the only Pizza Hut was across the river in New Hampshire. And it was a big deal. Like it felt sort of fancy there. You know, they had the faux Tiffany lanterns, the dark red leather banquets, and those giant 20 ounce red plastic tumblers. I mean, we didn't dress up for it, but we could have.

You know, you talk about this in the book, like what are you doing to your oven specifically? Like you mentioned a sort of double threat of fire brick, baking steel, baking stone. Will you describe that sort of like oven hack for us?

You know, you talk about this in the book, like what are you doing to your oven specifically? Like you mentioned a sort of double threat of fire brick, baking steel, baking stone. Will you describe that sort of like oven hack for us?

So like a sheet pan is not going to cut the mustard here.

So like a sheet pan is not going to cut the mustard here.

That's just making you mad. Not even close.

That's just making you mad. Not even close.

15 minutes. You guys are very civilized. Your children are much better behaved than mine. I'm like 35 seconds to eat it.

15 minutes. You guys are very civilized. Your children are much better behaved than mine. I'm like 35 seconds to eat it.

This is key, I think.

This is key, I think.

So when you first preheat your oven with the steel in it, how long do you preheat it for?

So when you first preheat your oven with the steel in it, how long do you preheat it for?

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Meanwhile, you guys change into their tuxedos. They're sitting down for their 30 minute one pizza. Yeah.

Meanwhile, you guys change into their tuxedos. They're sitting down for their 30 minute one pizza. Yeah.

The reason that we went is because my brother and I, and later my sister, who's five years younger than me, participated in the Book It program. Do you know Book It? Yeah.

The reason that we went is because my brother and I, and later my sister, who's five years younger than me, participated in the Book It program. Do you know Book It? Yeah.

And for those of you who love pan pizzas, we have Detroit style pizza pans.

And for those of you who love pan pizzas, we have Detroit style pizza pans.

First of all, I'm shocked that you would order chocolate chip cookies at a restaurant.

First of all, I'm shocked that you would order chocolate chip cookies at a restaurant.

We're ready for your questions. Operators are standing by.

We're ready for your questions. Operators are standing by.

Well, here's my theory.

Well, here's my theory.

I have an idea. At the count of three, let's name the piece of equipment that we hope they're using in the kitchen when they're making their cookies, okay?

I have an idea. At the count of three, let's name the piece of equipment that we hope they're using in the kitchen when they're making their cookies, okay?

So at King Arthur, we always encourage bakers to bake using weight rather than volume, which is like cups and tablespoons. That's because no two people scoop the same weight of flour when they scoop up a cup of flour. So I might scoop a cup of flour that's 120 grams. David might scoop up a cup of flour that's 130 grams. You know, it's true for cookies.

So at King Arthur, we always encourage bakers to bake using weight rather than volume, which is like cups and tablespoons. That's because no two people scoop the same weight of flour when they scoop up a cup of flour. So I might scoop a cup of flour that's 120 grams. David might scoop up a cup of flour that's 130 grams. You know, it's true for cookies.

It's true for all baked goods that getting a scale will ensure that your baked good comes out the same every time or at least eliminate one of the huge variables.

It's true for all baked goods that getting a scale will ensure that your baked good comes out the same every time or at least eliminate one of the huge variables.

I do too. I use my scale every single day. Greatest baking tool you can own for sure. But I think, I mean, there's other potential things that could be going on. And I think, David, you might have a thought about if it's not, you know, say she is measuring with a scale.

I do too. I use my scale every single day. Greatest baking tool you can own for sure. But I think, I mean, there's other potential things that could be going on. And I think, David, you might have a thought about if it's not, you know, say she is measuring with a scale.

Shout out to famous Amos. If you know, you know. And now it's hard to find a bakery that doesn't sell a chocolate chip cookie.

Shout out to famous Amos. If you know, you know. And now it's hard to find a bakery that doesn't sell a chocolate chip cookie.

I mean, find your bliss, right? You know, I think there are plenty of good quality brands of chocolate chips out there. Semi-sweet chocolate is going to be sweeter than bittersweet chocolate. The specific percentage of cacao in bittersweet versus semi-sweet chocolate varies from brand to brand. But you can assume that semi-sweet chocolate is always going to be a bit sweeter than bittersweet.

I mean, find your bliss, right? You know, I think there are plenty of good quality brands of chocolate chips out there. Semi-sweet chocolate is going to be sweeter than bittersweet chocolate. The specific percentage of cacao in bittersweet versus semi-sweet chocolate varies from brand to brand. But you can assume that semi-sweet chocolate is always going to be a bit sweeter than bittersweet.

Really comes down to, you know, personal preference. And yours is... Well, it's a good question. I like bittersweet chocolate in my cookies, but my children like semi-sweet chocolate, you know, and honestly, often what I'm doing is like dredging up whatever bits and bobs of chocolate I have in my pantry.

Really comes down to, you know, personal preference. And yours is... Well, it's a good question. I like bittersweet chocolate in my cookies, but my children like semi-sweet chocolate, you know, and honestly, often what I'm doing is like dredging up whatever bits and bobs of chocolate I have in my pantry.

So it'll be like some chocolate chips, some chopped chocolate, you know, everybody in the pool. And you know what? It always turns out pretty good. Yeah.

So it'll be like some chocolate chips, some chopped chocolate, you know, everybody in the pool. And you know what? It always turns out pretty good. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, we have.

Oh, yeah, we have.

Interesting. I actually have never met anyone who... Have I ever met anyone who doesn't like a chocolate chip cookie? I mean, I think the chipless chocolate chip cookie is... Well, I think it's marketing, right? If you want a cookie without chocolate chips, just make a different cookie. Don't make a chocolate chip cookie without chocolate chips. That's just sad.

Interesting. I actually have never met anyone who... Have I ever met anyone who doesn't like a chocolate chip cookie? I mean, I think the chipless chocolate chip cookie is... Well, I think it's marketing, right? If you want a cookie without chocolate chips, just make a different cookie. Don't make a chocolate chip cookie without chocolate chips. That's just sad.

I feel for you, Flora. I mean, who amongst us has not filched a little bit of... David, you're rolling your eyes like you've never eaten raw cookie dough.

I feel for you, Flora. I mean, who amongst us has not filched a little bit of... David, you're rolling your eyes like you've never eaten raw cookie dough.

I mean, it is hard to resist. In fact, my kids, whenever I make cookie dough, they would just like to eat... I was like, do you want me to bake you a cookie tonight? And they're like, I'll just have a ball of dough. But you really shouldn't eat raw cookie dough. And there's a couple of reasons for it.

I mean, it is hard to resist. In fact, my kids, whenever I make cookie dough, they would just like to eat... I was like, do you want me to bake you a cookie tonight? And they're like, I'll just have a ball of dough. But you really shouldn't eat raw cookie dough. And there's a couple of reasons for it.

I don't want to say it, but it's true because you can get quite ill from eating raw cookie dough and not just like a bellyache because you've eaten too much raw cookie dough, but because flour is an agricultural product. You know, it's a raw product. King Arthur flour never gets heat treated. So therefore, it's possible that There could be contaminants on it that would be killed in cooking.

I don't want to say it, but it's true because you can get quite ill from eating raw cookie dough and not just like a bellyache because you've eaten too much raw cookie dough, but because flour is an agricultural product. You know, it's a raw product. King Arthur flour never gets heat treated. So therefore, it's possible that There could be contaminants on it that would be killed in cooking.

So the flour is a risk. The eggs are a risk for the same reason. They're a raw product. So unfortunately, we have to say no to raw dough. What a bummer. I mean, I know that there are companies now that are making edible chocolate chip cookie dough, and those are safe to eat because that flour has been heat treated. But there's no reliable way to make it.

So the flour is a risk. The eggs are a risk for the same reason. They're a raw product. So unfortunately, we have to say no to raw dough. What a bummer. I mean, I know that there are companies now that are making edible chocolate chip cookie dough, and those are safe to eat because that flour has been heat treated. But there's no reliable way to make it.

From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Badalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking.

From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know. I'm Jessica Badalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking.

No.

No.

I mean, the good news, Flora, is that, you know, it is safe to eat chocolate chips. You can eat those by the handful out of the bag. By the handful. Tell your parents, Flora. It's a hack and a snack.

I mean, the good news, Flora, is that, you know, it is safe to eat chocolate chips. You can eat those by the handful out of the bag. By the handful. Tell your parents, Flora. It's a hack and a snack.

The more you want a chocolate chip cookie.

The more you want a chocolate chip cookie.

Well, you know, I'm not trying to be like, I'm not intentionally trying to poke the bear here, but I do not like, and in fact, I would go so far as to say, I think are bad. Okay. Warm chocolate chip cookies. I know. I know.

Well, you know, I'm not trying to be like, I'm not intentionally trying to poke the bear here, but I do not like, and in fact, I would go so far as to say, I think are bad. Okay. Warm chocolate chip cookies. I know. I know.

Well, so you and I had gone to a cookie establishment. Mm-hmm. That shall not be named, I assume. That shall not be named. And we had tried a bunch of the cookies and by design, the cookies are served warm. You know, they're baked frequently and then they're put on like heated mats so they stay warm.

Well, so you and I had gone to a cookie establishment. Mm-hmm. That shall not be named, I assume. That shall not be named. And we had tried a bunch of the cookies and by design, the cookies are served warm. You know, they're baked frequently and then they're put on like heated mats so they stay warm.

But I don't, you know, when people are like showing the chocolate chip cookie that they're like breaking in half and like they're real melty and soft, like fresh out of the oven. No, thank you.

But I don't, you know, when people are like showing the chocolate chip cookie that they're like breaking in half and like they're real melty and soft, like fresh out of the oven. No, thank you.

Oh, certainly not. Never.

Oh, certainly not. Never.

No, I mean, I like, I still want my chocolate to be like, not hard, right? Like I want there to still be some like chocolate pooling. But I think the overall textural experience for me is better when cookies have had say like, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes to cool.

No, I mean, I like, I still want my chocolate to be like, not hard, right? Like I want there to still be some like chocolate pooling. But I think the overall textural experience for me is better when cookies have had say like, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes to cool.

So they're like, you know, they're solidly room temperature on the warm side of room temperature, but they're not like a molten cookie experience. Yeah. I think what I don't like about a warm chocolate chip cookie is that there is no sort of textural contrast, right? Like it's just sort of like raw dough. You know, there's not like a distinction between the edge and the middle.

So they're like, you know, they're solidly room temperature on the warm side of room temperature, but they're not like a molten cookie experience. Yeah. I think what I don't like about a warm chocolate chip cookie is that there is no sort of textural contrast, right? Like it's just sort of like raw dough. You know, there's not like a distinction between the edge and the middle.

It just feels like an underdone to me in a way that I don't find appealing.

It just feels like an underdone to me in a way that I don't find appealing.

Now you're getting a Jess opinion.

Now you're getting a Jess opinion.

So I don't know. I mean, are we going to get hate mail? I don't know what's going to happen.

So I don't know. I mean, are we going to get hate mail? I don't know what's going to happen.

If you want that cookie, go now.

If you want that cookie, go now.

David, before we go, I want to tell you about something I learned while working on this episode. There is a chocolate chip cookie that is so special, it's in a museum.

David, before we go, I want to tell you about something I learned while working on this episode. There is a chocolate chip cookie that is so special, it's in a museum.

It may not be the freshest cookie you've ever eaten. The cookie is at the Udvar-Hazy Center at the National Air and Space Museum in Virginia. And that's the museum that also houses the Space Shuttle Discovery and lots of other notable air and space artifacts.

It may not be the freshest cookie you've ever eaten. The cookie is at the Udvar-Hazy Center at the National Air and Space Museum in Virginia. And that's the museum that also houses the Space Shuttle Discovery and lots of other notable air and space artifacts.

And the reason that there's a cookie there is because this chocolate chip cookie does not fly, but it was the first thing ever baked in space.

And the reason that there's a cookie there is because this chocolate chip cookie does not fly, but it was the first thing ever baked in space.

It is a notable achievement because as you can imagine, there's a lot of challenges when it comes to baking in space in a zero gravity environment. So I called up Ian and Jordana Fichtenbaum, who are the co-founders and co-chefs of this space technology company called Zero-G Kitchen.

It is a notable achievement because as you can imagine, there's a lot of challenges when it comes to baking in space in a zero gravity environment. So I called up Ian and Jordana Fichtenbaum, who are the co-founders and co-chefs of this space technology company called Zero-G Kitchen.

And they were curious to see if it was possible to design a zero gravity oven that would work on the International Space Station. And when I asked them about Why chocolate chip cookies? Although the answer to me is quite obvious.

And they were curious to see if it was possible to design a zero gravity oven that would work on the International Space Station. And when I asked them about Why chocolate chip cookies? Although the answer to me is quite obvious.

You know, they thought like if you were going to be away from home for a year, like what food item, what baked food item would bring more comfort and joy than a chocolate chip cookie, which I think is true. Totally. But until now, the technology hasn't existed to actually freshly bake something. So in 2019, the oven, along with frozen discs of chocolate chip cookie dough, were sent to space.

You know, they thought like if you were going to be away from home for a year, like what food item, what baked food item would bring more comfort and joy than a chocolate chip cookie, which I think is true. Totally. But until now, the technology hasn't existed to actually freshly bake something. So in 2019, the oven, along with frozen discs of chocolate chip cookie dough, were sent to space.

I know you've been on your own journey, David, trying to find the ultimate chocolate chip cookie. And I'm curious about what you might have found out there and what you've learned.

I know you've been on your own journey, David, trying to find the ultimate chocolate chip cookie. And I'm curious about what you might have found out there and what you've learned.

And the astronauts who are working on the International Space Station then take the frozen pucks of chocolate chip cookie dough. They put them in like a silicone pouch. And the silicone pouch prevents like flyaway crumbs, but also is vented to release steam. Mm-hmm. And they put them in the center of the oven and nobody knew what was going to happen.

And the astronauts who are working on the International Space Station then take the frozen pucks of chocolate chip cookie dough. They put them in like a silicone pouch. And the silicone pouch prevents like flyaway crumbs, but also is vented to release steam. Mm-hmm. And they put them in the center of the oven and nobody knew what was going to happen.

So they baked five cookies in all and they tried to figure out how long, really the experiment was like, how long does it take to bake a cookie in space in a special oven and what happens? So David, guess how long it took for the cookie to bake?

So they baked five cookies in all and they tried to figure out how long, really the experiment was like, how long does it take to bake a cookie in space in a special oven and what happens? So David, guess how long it took for the cookie to bake?

No, guess again.

No, guess again.

Oh, that would be amazing. 130 minutes. What? It took more than two hours to bake a single chocolate chip cookie.

Oh, that would be amazing. 130 minutes. What? It took more than two hours to bake a single chocolate chip cookie.

You've got time on your side. Where else are you going to go? Why did it take so long? I mean, that's a great question. The oven that Ian and Jordana created, it's not very large. It's sort of, you know, maybe the size of like a laptop, you know, 14 or 16 inches. It's a cylinder. And it is designed to hold and bake food in the microgravity environment. And it heats using electric heating elements.

You've got time on your side. Where else are you going to go? Why did it take so long? I mean, that's a great question. The oven that Ian and Jordana created, it's not very large. It's sort of, you know, maybe the size of like a laptop, you know, 14 or 16 inches. It's a cylinder. And it is designed to hold and bake food in the microgravity environment. And it heats using electric heating elements.

So it pulls wattage from the space station. And Jordana described it to me sort of like a toaster oven or like an easy bake oven. I don't know if you ever had an easy bake oven. I did. Where like the light bulb is cooking things over a very long period of time. So that sort of helped me understand like more or less what is happening.

So it pulls wattage from the space station. And Jordana described it to me sort of like a toaster oven or like an easy bake oven. I don't know if you ever had an easy bake oven. I did. Where like the light bulb is cooking things over a very long period of time. So that sort of helped me understand like more or less what is happening.

I think the first cookie that they baked, they baked for 25 minutes. That was not successful. It was like grossly underbaked. You know, the second cookie, it was like 75 minutes. And they said at the 75 minute mark, they could smell chocolate chip cookie. Finally, at 130 minutes with a 10 minute rest.

I think the first cookie that they baked, they baked for 25 minutes. That was not successful. It was like grossly underbaked. You know, the second cookie, it was like 75 minutes. And they said at the 75 minute mark, they could smell chocolate chip cookie. Finally, at 130 minutes with a 10 minute rest.

And they determined that that was the cookie that baked and seemed most like a cookie baked on planet Earth. And I say seemed because here's the worst part. They never got to taste the cookies. The astronauts didn't get to eat the cookies.

And they determined that that was the cookie that baked and seemed most like a cookie baked on planet Earth. And I say seemed because here's the worst part. They never got to taste the cookies. The astronauts didn't get to eat the cookies.

You can't just have an astronaut eat anything or do anything in outer space because, you know, what if they get sick? What if something bad happens? You know, I have an adverse reaction. Gosh, this is torture.

You can't just have an astronaut eat anything or do anything in outer space because, you know, what if they get sick? What if something bad happens? You know, I have an adverse reaction. Gosh, this is torture.

I know.

I know.

I know. And they said they were really just interested in, could you do it? Not so much in, is it delicious? Which is a real mind bender to me.

I know. And they said they were really just interested in, could you do it? Not so much in, is it delicious? Which is a real mind bender to me.

So they tell me that they know where one cookie is, which is on display at the Udvar-Hazy Center. But the whereabouts of the other space-baked chocolate chip cookies is unknown. I think we know. I'm imagining them like in a break room fridge or freezer somewhere, you know, that somebody has tucked them away. And to hear Ian describe it, they quote, lost track of the cookies.

So they tell me that they know where one cookie is, which is on display at the Udvar-Hazy Center. But the whereabouts of the other space-baked chocolate chip cookies is unknown. I think we know. I'm imagining them like in a break room fridge or freezer somewhere, you know, that somebody has tucked them away. And to hear Ian describe it, they quote, lost track of the cookies.

We'll never know if a space cookie was delicious. But we do know that this experiment has sort of paved the way for future space baking, which is really pretty exciting. And it may become more and more relevant as space tourism picks up because I think there will be a demand for freshly baked cookies and beyond.

We'll never know if a space cookie was delicious. But we do know that this experiment has sort of paved the way for future space baking, which is really pretty exciting. And it may become more and more relevant as space tourism picks up because I think there will be a demand for freshly baked cookies and beyond.

And so I asked Ian and Jordana like what they were working on next, what they're currently thinking of as their next space baking experiment. And Jordana told me that they're considering experimenting with sourdough starter in space. Oh, wow. I told them that we were very excited to hear about how Space Starter plays out. You know, what happens with fermentation in space.

And so I asked Ian and Jordana like what they were working on next, what they're currently thinking of as their next space baking experiment. And Jordana told me that they're considering experimenting with sourdough starter in space. Oh, wow. I told them that we were very excited to hear about how Space Starter plays out. You know, what happens with fermentation in space.

And that, of course, you know, they have to use King Arthur flour when they mix up that first batch of Space Starter. I support it. The things you know. We are just about out of time for today. But before we go, I want to ask you one question. David, what are you baking this week? What's on your baking agenda?

And that, of course, you know, they have to use King Arthur flour when they mix up that first batch of Space Starter. I support it. The things you know. We are just about out of time for today. But before we go, I want to ask you one question. David, what are you baking this week? What's on your baking agenda?

Yeah, I love that bread. It's so hearty and delicious.

Yeah, I love that bread. It's so hearty and delicious.

And you know what I also like to do with that sesame wheat? This is an idea that I got from Lucinda Scalaquin, the food author.

And you know what I also like to do with that sesame wheat? This is an idea that I got from Lucinda Scalaquin, the food author.

It's a great last name. She puts like thick planks of bread underneath her roasting chickens. you know so then you take the chicken off and you have this like schmaltz soaked toast and the sesame wheat is like particularly good for that wow maybe i'll do that yeah what are you baking this week jessica

It's a great last name. She puts like thick planks of bread underneath her roasting chickens. you know so then you take the chicken off and you have this like schmaltz soaked toast and the sesame wheat is like particularly good for that wow maybe i'll do that yeah what are you baking this week jessica

So this week, I'm planning to bake a new-to-me recipe that's on our site for roti kanai, which is a South Asian flatbread that's stretchy and flaky and crispy and greasy in a good way. And they're not the fastest thing to make, so I feel like they're a nice thing to do when you have some time on the weekend and you want a little bit of a project.

So this week, I'm planning to bake a new-to-me recipe that's on our site for roti kanai, which is a South Asian flatbread that's stretchy and flaky and crispy and greasy in a good way. And they're not the fastest thing to make, so I feel like they're a nice thing to do when you have some time on the weekend and you want a little bit of a project.

You roll them out, they get folded, they get coiled, they get rolled, but then you have this... magnificent, flaky, crispy flatbread. One of the best foods ever created.

You roll them out, they get folded, they get coiled, they get rolled, but then you have this... magnificent, flaky, crispy flatbread. One of the best foods ever created.

And it's so good. And that recipe comes from Thomas Pesce Duffley, who has a couple of restaurants out in Portland, Oregon. And he serves the roti there. I've eaten the roti there. It's so good. So if I can come close at home, that'll be exciting. And I'll just make a curry or something to serve with it. So that's my plan. I think you're going to get real close. I think it's going to be fun.

And it's so good. And that recipe comes from Thomas Pesce Duffley, who has a couple of restaurants out in Portland, Oregon. And he serves the roti there. I've eaten the roti there. It's so good. So if I can come close at home, that'll be exciting. And I'll just make a curry or something to serve with it. So that's my plan. I think you're going to get real close. I think it's going to be fun.

Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. We'll be back with another episode all about pizza.

Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. We'll be back with another episode all about pizza.

Review the podcast while you're there or share this episode with a friend because baking is more fun together.

Review the podcast while you're there or share this episode with a friend because baking is more fun together.

Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, Jessica Batalana.

Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, Jessica Batalana.

Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer. Chad Chennai is our producer and engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Begala. This episode featured Zoe Francois. You can learn more about her book, Zoe Bakes Cookies, by going to zoebakes.com, and it's also linked in the show notes.

Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer. Chad Chennai is our producer and engineer. Original music by Megan and Marcus Begala. This episode featured Zoe Francois. You can learn more about her book, Zoe Bakes Cookies, by going to zoebakes.com, and it's also linked in the show notes.

You'll find some of our favorite chocolate chip cookie recipes, as well as other recipes for what we're baking this week. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

You'll find some of our favorite chocolate chip cookie recipes, as well as other recipes for what we're baking this week. Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.

Well, you know, here at King Arthur, we're committed to helping people become the best bakers they can be. We're a 200-year-old baking company. You've probably seen our flour at the grocery store, but we've also published cookbooks.

Well, you know, here at King Arthur, we're committed to helping people become the best bakers they can be. We're a 200-year-old baking company. You've probably seen our flour at the grocery store, but we've also published cookbooks.

Well, you know, first of all, I'm shocked that you would order chocolate chip cookies at a restaurant. Every time.

Well, you know, first of all, I'm shocked that you would order chocolate chip cookies at a restaurant. Every time.

Wow.

Wow.

But you're totally right that cookies have become very extra. Like they are frosted. They have tahini in them. The butter is brown. They're giant. They have like huge pools of chocolate. Like they have more chocolate than they do batter. Lots of innovation happening. Some good.

But you're totally right that cookies have become very extra. Like they are frosted. They have tahini in them. The butter is brown. They're giant. They have like huge pools of chocolate. Like they have more chocolate than they do batter. Lots of innovation happening. Some good.

some less good, but there's also been this like absolutely like explosive growth of these cookie chains in the last few years. And I think those cookie chains of which there are now numerous ones, they're sort of resetting chocolate chip cookie expectations because these chains are now everywhere, they're beloved and they're creating a new standard and that standard I think is big.

some less good, but there's also been this like absolutely like explosive growth of these cookie chains in the last few years. And I think those cookie chains of which there are now numerous ones, they're sort of resetting chocolate chip cookie expectations because these chains are now everywhere, they're beloved and they're creating a new standard and that standard I think is big.

Super sweet cookies.

Super sweet cookies.

And these chains have been so hugely successful. Crumble started with one store in Utah back in 2017, and now there are over 1,000 franchise-owned Crumble stores in the U.S., 18 in Canada, 96% of which have opened since 2020. So it's not our imagination that in the last...

And these chains have been so hugely successful. Crumble started with one store in Utah back in 2017, and now there are over 1,000 franchise-owned Crumble stores in the U.S., 18 in Canada, 96% of which have opened since 2020. So it's not our imagination that in the last...

four years like it's been it's been crazy cookie time and those chains have generated more than a billion dollars in sales and sold 300 million cookies and you know sorry not sorry that's a lot of dough david that's a lot of cookie dough okay well the point is chocolate chip cookies never go out of fashion people never get bored with them and they're here to stay

four years like it's been it's been crazy cookie time and those chains have generated more than a billion dollars in sales and sold 300 million cookies and you know sorry not sorry that's a lot of dough david that's a lot of cookie dough okay well the point is chocolate chip cookies never go out of fashion people never get bored with them and they're here to stay

Every episode we'll be chatting with the best bakers around. And recently I was reading best-selling cookbook author and TV host Zoe Francois' latest book, Zoe Bakes Cookies. As you might expect, it is an exhaustive and extensively researched guide to cookie baking. And part of what makes it so amazing is the deep dive that Zoe takes in every element of chocolate chip cookies.

Every episode we'll be chatting with the best bakers around. And recently I was reading best-selling cookbook author and TV host Zoe Francois' latest book, Zoe Bakes Cookies. As you might expect, it is an exhaustive and extensively researched guide to cookie baking. And part of what makes it so amazing is the deep dive that Zoe takes in every element of chocolate chip cookies.

With photos and charts, you can really sort of drill down into what a simple tweak or a seemingly simple tweak to a recipe does to the end result. So we decided to call up Zoe to talk more about chocolate chip cookies and get some of her secrets.

With photos and charts, you can really sort of drill down into what a simple tweak or a seemingly simple tweak to a recipe does to the end result. So we decided to call up Zoe to talk more about chocolate chip cookies and get some of her secrets.

Zoe, did you already have those family recipes before you started writing your book?

Zoe, did you already have those family recipes before you started writing your book?

A lot of opinions. And today, for the very first episode of our very first season, we're talking about one of the greatest foods of all time, the iconic chocolate chip cookie.

A lot of opinions. And today, for the very first episode of our very first season, we're talking about one of the greatest foods of all time, the iconic chocolate chip cookie.

In the book, you talk a lot about what happens if you alter one ingredient in your chocolate chip cookie dough, like if you use brown sugar instead of granulated sugar, or you swap shortening for some of the butter, or use less flour or more baking powder.

In the book, you talk a lot about what happens if you alter one ingredient in your chocolate chip cookie dough, like if you use brown sugar instead of granulated sugar, or you swap shortening for some of the butter, or use less flour or more baking powder.

And I'm just sort of curious what it must have been like when you were testing all those variations, because I imagine it was kind of an intense process.

And I'm just sort of curious what it must have been like when you were testing all those variations, because I imagine it was kind of an intense process.

behind some paywall? Is there the true Zoe Francois perfect cookie? Or is like, you know, is that idea sort of absurd to you? Because all of these cookies are great cookies, and you might want one or the other at a different time?

behind some paywall? Is there the true Zoe Francois perfect cookie? Or is like, you know, is that idea sort of absurd to you? Because all of these cookies are great cookies, and you might want one or the other at a different time?

Well, I mean, I think for anyone who hasn't had the Levan cookie, they're large. They're like just set around the edges. But the inside is basically like a ball of raw cookie dough.

Well, I mean, I think for anyone who hasn't had the Levan cookie, they're large. They're like just set around the edges. But the inside is basically like a ball of raw cookie dough.

Well done.

Well done.

I know our test kitchen director, Sarah, was very inspired by the technique. So she applied it to her recipe for oatmeal and date smash cookies, which you can find on the King Arthur website, as well as linked in the show notes, and which is one of my very favorite new recipes of ours.

I know our test kitchen director, Sarah, was very inspired by the technique. So she applied it to her recipe for oatmeal and date smash cookies, which you can find on the King Arthur website, as well as linked in the show notes, and which is one of my very favorite new recipes of ours.

I mean, I have not eaten any today, but I think I've eaten more chocolate chip cookies in my lifetime than any other cookie and maybe even any other sweet thing, honestly. For me, they're basically the greatest of all time when it comes to cookies. Chocolate chip cookies are America's favorite cookie. They're my favorite cookie.

I mean, I have not eaten any today, but I think I've eaten more chocolate chip cookies in my lifetime than any other cookie and maybe even any other sweet thing, honestly. For me, they're basically the greatest of all time when it comes to cookies. Chocolate chip cookies are America's favorite cookie. They're my favorite cookie.

Amazing. Great.

Amazing. Great.

Wait, we sell oven mitts? I need new oven mitts.

Wait, we sell oven mitts? I need new oven mitts.

Calibo.

Calibo.

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake. I can't wait to hear what people ask us. We are ready.

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake. I can't wait to hear what people ask us. We are ready.

And frankly, I'm just glad I was born in the same century as the chocolate chip cookie. They were first popularized by Ruth Wakefield of the Toll House restaurant in Massachusetts in the early 1930s. Nestle and Pillsbury started selling refrigerated chocolate chip cookie dough in the 1950s. Nabisco launched Chips Ahoy in the 1960s, and that started a packaged cookie revolution.

And frankly, I'm just glad I was born in the same century as the chocolate chip cookie. They were first popularized by Ruth Wakefield of the Toll House restaurant in Massachusetts in the early 1930s. Nestle and Pillsbury started selling refrigerated chocolate chip cookie dough in the 1950s. Nabisco launched Chips Ahoy in the 1960s, and that started a packaged cookie revolution.

You know, and they do rise in the oven, but like, they're not, you know, miracle workers.

You know, and they do rise in the oven, but like, they're not, you know, miracle workers.

I mean, I feel like maybe we're sort of being posers because here we are, two New Englanders talking about biscuits.

I mean, I feel like maybe we're sort of being posers because here we are, two New Englanders talking about biscuits.

It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com forward slash podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com forward slash podcast.

It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to kingarthurbaking.com forward slash podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's kingarthurbaking.com forward slash podcast.

Are you ready for today's biscuit questions? I'm ready.

Are you ready for today's biscuit questions? I'm ready.

What flour is best used for biscuits? Well, I mean, I think that's one of the most foundational and fundamental questions we could possibly have gotten, right?

What flour is best used for biscuits? Well, I mean, I think that's one of the most foundational and fundamental questions we could possibly have gotten, right?

Because like we said earlier, biscuits don't have a lot of ingredients, but flour is one of them. You know, we recently debuted a new product, which is our biscuit flour blend, which was an effort from our research and development team. They spent quite a bit of time and many, many biscuits were baked in pursuit of a flour blend that would make the perfect biscuits.

Because like we said earlier, biscuits don't have a lot of ingredients, but flour is one of them. You know, we recently debuted a new product, which is our biscuit flour blend, which was an effort from our research and development team. They spent quite a bit of time and many, many biscuits were baked in pursuit of a flour blend that would make the perfect biscuits.

And I wanted to just get some insight from one of our R&D pros, Jonathan Brazil, who had this to say about our biscuit flour blend.

And I wanted to just get some insight from one of our R&D pros, Jonathan Brazil, who had this to say about our biscuit flour blend.

So I think Jonathan gets really to the heart of the matter here. The best flour for biscuits is a flour that's a lower protein flour. So we've talked about protein level in our flours before. Our all-purpose flour hovers around 11.7% protein, which is great for, as the name suggests, lots and lots of things.

So I think Jonathan gets really to the heart of the matter here. The best flour for biscuits is a flour that's a lower protein flour. So we've talked about protein level in our flours before. Our all-purpose flour hovers around 11.7% protein, which is great for, as the name suggests, lots and lots of things.

But if you're looking, as Jonathan says, for this tender and fluffy biscuit, then what you want is actually a flour that is lower in protein. So rather than a flour that's milled from the hard winter wheat, like our all-purpose flour, This new biscuit flour blend is milled from a softer wheat. And so you have a lower protein flour.

But if you're looking, as Jonathan says, for this tender and fluffy biscuit, then what you want is actually a flour that is lower in protein. So rather than a flour that's milled from the hard winter wheat, like our all-purpose flour, This new biscuit flour blend is milled from a softer wheat. And so you have a lower protein flour.

And then when that is formed into a dough, it's just by its very nature going to have less gluten. It'll help with sort of the texture of the biscuit, right? And I think, David, you and I had talked before about just the handling too, right? It's not just the protein and just the dough, but how you mix it.

And then when that is formed into a dough, it's just by its very nature going to have less gluten. It'll help with sort of the texture of the biscuit, right? And I think, David, you and I had talked before about just the handling too, right? It's not just the protein and just the dough, but how you mix it.

I mean, and there are examples of biscuits, you know, here in my home state of Maine, they're the Bakewell biscuits. But then elsewhere you find like the giant cat head biscuits of the South. I just love the name of those, like so named because they're as large as a cat's head, which is such an amazing visual. And, you know, in every style between from fluffy to flaky to craggy to soft and tender.

I mean, and there are examples of biscuits, you know, here in my home state of Maine, they're the Bakewell biscuits. But then elsewhere you find like the giant cat head biscuits of the South. I just love the name of those, like so named because they're as large as a cat's head, which is such an amazing visual. And, you know, in every style between from fluffy to flaky to craggy to soft and tender.

It's kind of like pie dough in that way, right?

It's kind of like pie dough in that way, right?

Yeah, I like to grate too. And Tandem Bakery here in Portland, the baker there, Brianna Holt, she grates cold butter into cold flour. And then she folds. I mean, very much the same process that you would for any sort of pastry that you want to be like puffing up when it bakes. Yeah. I think those butter questions are great.

Yeah, I like to grate too. And Tandem Bakery here in Portland, the baker there, Brianna Holt, she grates cold butter into cold flour. And then she folds. I mean, very much the same process that you would for any sort of pastry that you want to be like puffing up when it bakes. Yeah. I think those butter questions are great.

And again, like the flour questions, you know, what else can you fixate on, right? Like there's so few ingredients. So these details actually do matter. And I think that people find biscuits to be like perplexing in the same way that they find pie dough to be perplexing. So I think that we're talking about them together, you know, makes sense. I think we have one final question.

And again, like the flour questions, you know, what else can you fixate on, right? Like there's so few ingredients. So these details actually do matter. And I think that people find biscuits to be like perplexing in the same way that they find pie dough to be perplexing. So I think that we're talking about them together, you know, makes sense. I think we have one final question.

I mean, this is biscuit energy.

I mean, this is biscuit energy.

I do think there are some things just in terms of technique that will help no matter what the style of biscuit you're making, that will give you sort of good results. And that is to have a sharp cutter. If you're using a round cutter, whatever, it doesn't matter the shape, round cutter, square cutter, but a nice sharp metal cutter.

I do think there are some things just in terms of technique that will help no matter what the style of biscuit you're making, that will give you sort of good results. And that is to have a sharp cutter. If you're using a round cutter, whatever, it doesn't matter the shape, round cutter, square cutter, but a nice sharp metal cutter.

Or if you're cutting them with a knife, I think the same rules apply. You just cut straight down. You know, the temptation when you get to the cutting board after you've cut through the dough is to twist to sort of release the biscuit. And that is what you don't want to do because twisting sort of like seals off the edges of the biscuit dough. So then it's harder for those layers to separate.

Or if you're cutting them with a knife, I think the same rules apply. You just cut straight down. You know, the temptation when you get to the cutting board after you've cut through the dough is to twist to sort of release the biscuit. And that is what you don't want to do because twisting sort of like seals off the edges of the biscuit dough. So then it's harder for those layers to separate.

So there's actually a lot to unpack, you know, even in something as seemingly simple as biscuits. Yeah. Food and travel writer Vonnie Williams wrote a wonderful piece for King Arthur about Atlanta baker Erica Council's biscuits, which we'll link to in the show notes.

So there's actually a lot to unpack, you know, even in something as seemingly simple as biscuits. Yeah. Food and travel writer Vonnie Williams wrote a wonderful piece for King Arthur about Atlanta baker Erica Council's biscuits, which we'll link to in the show notes.

So cutting straight down and then not messing with it, you're going to get the highest potential rise from the biscuit, no matter what style you're making. Yes.

So cutting straight down and then not messing with it, you're going to get the highest potential rise from the biscuit, no matter what style you're making. Yes.

That's interesting. You know, and they do rise in the oven, but like they're not, you know, miracle workers.

That's interesting. You know, and they do rise in the oven, but like they're not, you know, miracle workers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Always good questions. Always mediocre answers. No, I'm just kidding. The producer of our podcast, our colleague, Rossi Anastapulo, has been, I mean, she's been haranguing us about sports lately. She and I have had a lot of conversations about college basketball as of late. And I know that Rossi's a huge fan of... the Tar Heels, which doesn't mean anything to me, but means a great deal to her.

Always good questions. Always mediocre answers. No, I'm just kidding. The producer of our podcast, our colleague, Rossi Anastapulo, has been, I mean, she's been haranguing us about sports lately. She and I have had a lot of conversations about college basketball as of late. And I know that Rossi's a huge fan of... the Tar Heels, which doesn't mean anything to me, but means a great deal to her.

And, you know, when we were talking about this biscuit episode, Rossi said, like, I have a story for you that ties in my love of the Tar Heels and your love of biscuits. And so I told her I didn't want to hear the story in advance. I wanted her to come onto the podcast and tell us the story about the strange union between basketball and biscuits. Rossi, you're up.

And, you know, when we were talking about this biscuit episode, Rossi said, like, I have a story for you that ties in my love of the Tar Heels and your love of biscuits. And so I told her I didn't want to hear the story in advance. I wanted her to come onto the podcast and tell us the story about the strange union between basketball and biscuits. Rossi, you're up.

And she quoted Erica saying, biscuits are the people's food, which I think really captures the way that they resonate with people sort of across the spectrum, across the country. And even though the biscuits are steeped in history, I feel like they're still as relevant, you know, in today's baking landscape as they have ever been. So I'm excited to dig into this one today.

And she quoted Erica saying, biscuits are the people's food, which I think really captures the way that they resonate with people sort of across the spectrum, across the country. And even though the biscuits are steeped in history, I feel like they're still as relevant, you know, in today's baking landscape as they have ever been. So I'm excited to dig into this one today.

Oh, okay.

Oh, okay.

And I'm Jessica Badalana, Staff Editor at King Arthur Baking.

And I'm Jessica Badalana, Staff Editor at King Arthur Baking.

I mean, listen to that crowd.

I mean, listen to that crowd.

Well, I mean, I don't know. I guess the whole point of this segment is that I just tell you what I feel from the heart.

Well, I mean, I don't know. I guess the whole point of this segment is that I just tell you what I feel from the heart.

Which is that, yes, it's great. What's the trend?

Which is that, yes, it's great. What's the trend?

I think you might judge, but you don't listen. I know a lot of people like a biscuit sandwich.

I think you might judge, but you don't listen. I know a lot of people like a biscuit sandwich.

But not me, David, not me.

But not me, David, not me.

I don't think that biscuits are the optimal vessel for a breakfast sandwich.

I don't think that biscuits are the optimal vessel for a breakfast sandwich.

Also, I think a little... A chicken biscuit. I think it's a bad choice.

Also, I think a little... A chicken biscuit. I think it's a bad choice.

Not from a flavor perspective. Not from a flavor perspective. I mean, I just think it's difficult because what I love so much about biscuits is that they have this tenderness. And so, I mean, how many fried chicken biscuit sandwiches have you eaten that have like held together as you're eating them?

Not from a flavor perspective. Not from a flavor perspective. I mean, I just think it's difficult because what I love so much about biscuits is that they have this tenderness. And so, I mean, how many fried chicken biscuit sandwiches have you eaten that have like held together as you're eating them?

They like fall apart. The biscuit starts to crumble. Like, give me an English muffin. Okay. I mean, I want to eat a biscuit and I want to eat an egg sandwich. I want to eat a biscuit and I want to eat fried chicken, but I don't need them to be together.

They like fall apart. The biscuit starts to crumble. Like, give me an English muffin. Okay. I mean, I want to eat a biscuit and I want to eat an egg sandwich. I want to eat a biscuit and I want to eat fried chicken, but I don't need them to be together.

It's just me though, you know?

It's just me though, you know?

Oh, that's a good question. So, you know, about once a year, I get this bee in my bonnet to make donuts at home.

Oh, that's a good question. So, you know, about once a year, I get this bee in my bonnet to make donuts at home.

I know. It's like a, you know, it's its own holiday, donut day. I don't know, because it's a pain. I mean, fried dough is always good, but fried dough is always a pain to make at home. But a freshly fried cake donut, I prefer cake donuts to yeast donuts. Just another bonus Jess opinion for you. But, you know, fresh from the oil, like a little nutmeg in the dough where they're sort of craggy.

I know. It's like a, you know, it's its own holiday, donut day. I don't know, because it's a pain. I mean, fried dough is always good, but fried dough is always a pain to make at home. But a freshly fried cake donut, I prefer cake donuts to yeast donuts. Just another bonus Jess opinion for you. But, you know, fresh from the oil, like a little nutmeg in the dough where they're sort of craggy.

And I don't even roll them in sugar or anything. I just like them straight up.

And I don't even roll them in sugar or anything. I just like them straight up.

So this could be the weekend. This could be cake donut weekend. I mean, yes, effort, but the reward, high reward. Talk about a way to win friends and influence people.

So this could be the weekend. This could be cake donut weekend. I mean, yes, effort, but the reward, high reward. Talk about a way to win friends and influence people.

Yeah, you should start frying donuts. Someday I'm going to tell you some... There's an apocryphal family story about... Me getting lost on a snowy mountain in Vermont that ends with donuts. So I'm going to save that for a donut episode. It's a true story? It's a true story. Oh, okay. Yeah. Can't wait. I know. What are you going to bake this week?

Yeah, you should start frying donuts. Someday I'm going to tell you some... There's an apocryphal family story about... Me getting lost on a snowy mountain in Vermont that ends with donuts. So I'm going to save that for a donut episode. It's a true story? It's a true story. Oh, okay. Yeah. Can't wait. I know. What are you going to bake this week?

Still going to eat. Still going to toast. Yeah. A long mix for that dough, you know, and then I think a long proof, a little bit longer than you think, probably a little warmer than you think. And do you do just like the three strand braid or are you like a four strand, six strand, eight strand?

Still going to eat. Still going to toast. Yeah. A long mix for that dough, you know, and then I think a long proof, a little bit longer than you think, probably a little warmer than you think. And do you do just like the three strand braid or are you like a four strand, six strand, eight strand?

Yeah, it does. And we did put that tip in the book because and why do you start in the middle?

Yeah, it does. And we did put that tip in the book because and why do you start in the middle?

Yeah, it's like the swimmer's body of challah. And then you get those slices at the end that are like so small. In fact, I just had a challah at home last week and I made my son like three of the smallest peanut butter and jelly sandwiches you've ever seen because it was like the end of the loaf. And I was like, well, one is not enough.

Yeah, it's like the swimmer's body of challah. And then you get those slices at the end that are like so small. In fact, I just had a challah at home last week and I made my son like three of the smallest peanut butter and jelly sandwiches you've ever seen because it was like the end of the loaf. And I was like, well, one is not enough.

So he had like silver dollar peanut butter and jelly challah sandwiches.

So he had like silver dollar peanut butter and jelly challah sandwiches.

No. Sadly, this actually brings us to the end of our first season of Things Bakers Know. We've had such a good time talking about everything from cookies and space to David's favorite birthday death cakes. And we want to thank all of you for listening.

No. Sadly, this actually brings us to the end of our first season of Things Bakers Know. We've had such a good time talking about everything from cookies and space to David's favorite birthday death cakes. And we want to thank all of you for listening.

It was such a good time, and of course, a thank you to all of our amazing guests who joined us on this first five-episode season. I'm really eager to record more. I've had such a great time doing this, and we will be back with a new batch of episodes when season two debuts this fall.

It was such a good time, and of course, a thank you to all of our amazing guests who joined us on this first five-episode season. I'm really eager to record more. I've had such a great time doing this, and we will be back with a new batch of episodes when season two debuts this fall.

We're going to cover all sorts of fun things from holiday baking to topics like pie, focaccia, and perhaps my favorite of all, baking with kids. In the meantime, send us your baking questions at kingarthurbaking.com forward slash podcast, and you may be featured on a future episode.

We're going to cover all sorts of fun things from holiday baking to topics like pie, focaccia, and perhaps my favorite of all, baking with kids. In the meantime, send us your baking questions at kingarthurbaking.com forward slash podcast, and you may be featured on a future episode.

Follow that recipe. See you next season.

Follow that recipe. See you next season.

And me, Jessica Batalana.

And me, Jessica Batalana.

There are lots of styles of biscuits. And I'm just sort of curious, like what your biscuit style of choice is.

There are lots of styles of biscuits. And I'm just sort of curious, like what your biscuit style of choice is.

Yeah, I do. And then I feel like we can do some sort of personality test, like what your biscuit style says about you.

Yeah, I do. And then I feel like we can do some sort of personality test, like what your biscuit style says about you.

Man, I had a biscuit for breakfast this morning just to get ready for this episode.

Man, I had a biscuit for breakfast this morning just to get ready for this episode.

I think you're not alone in this. I feel like the world... Okay. I mean, this is to put it in a sort of binary, but I do think there's a big split between people that prefer the sort of fluffy style biscuit. I mean, I feel like I just am making a sport out of disagreeing with you all the time on this podcast, but I... I mean, I have, yeah, you know, you can't dress up your drive, I guess.

I think you're not alone in this. I feel like the world... Okay. I mean, this is to put it in a sort of binary, but I do think there's a big split between people that prefer the sort of fluffy style biscuit. I mean, I feel like I just am making a sport out of disagreeing with you all the time on this podcast, but I... I mean, I have, yeah, you know, you can't dress up your drive, I guess.

I was training. I'm always in training.

I was training. I'm always in training.

But I do like those soft biscuits. But if I'm making biscuits at home, and even if I am going to buy them at a bakery, I do like the sort of flaky, buttery, crispy edged biscuit. It's like, that's a little higher in stature. And it has that sort of cragginess. Maybe some salt on it or some salted butter or like...

But I do like those soft biscuits. But if I'm making biscuits at home, and even if I am going to buy them at a bakery, I do like the sort of flaky, buttery, crispy edged biscuit. It's like, that's a little higher in stature. And it has that sort of cragginess. Maybe some salt on it or some salted butter or like...

You know, I read that Dwight Yoakam's grandmother used to top each one of her biscuits with like a little knob of bacon fat. That seems like a smart thing to me. So I actually, you know, I just have a right now my biscuit vibe is just a little bit different from yours, but I think represents a style of biscuit that's also quite popular.

You know, I read that Dwight Yoakam's grandmother used to top each one of her biscuits with like a little knob of bacon fat. That seems like a smart thing to me. So I actually, you know, I just have a right now my biscuit vibe is just a little bit different from yours, but I think represents a style of biscuit that's also quite popular.

I mean, any fresh biscuit, let's be clear here. Like whether it's a cream biscuit, a buttermilk biscuit, an all butter biscuit, all biscuits are good biscuits. But I think where biscuits get really interesting is thinking about the role that they have played in American baking history.

I mean, any fresh biscuit, let's be clear here. Like whether it's a cream biscuit, a buttermilk biscuit, an all butter biscuit, all biscuits are good biscuits. But I think where biscuits get really interesting is thinking about the role that they have played in American baking history.

I'm glad that we're talking about biscuits because I think they're a baked good that seems quite simple. You know, they have a short ingredient list. You see them all over the place. They're sold in canisters in the grocery store, at fast food chains, at higher-end bakeries. But sort of underneath the craggy, flaky, golden crust and between all those layers, biscuits are actually –

I'm glad that we're talking about biscuits because I think they're a baked good that seems quite simple. You know, they have a short ingredient list. You see them all over the place. They're sold in canisters in the grocery store, at fast food chains, at higher-end bakeries. But sort of underneath the craggy, flaky, golden crust and between all those layers, biscuits are actually –

a pretty complicated and fascinating bake. And I don't mean complicated in technique, although that too, and we'll talk about that later in the episode. But also, they're one of the most foundational baked goods in America. I mean, really, you could argue they're one of America's first baked goods.

a pretty complicated and fascinating bake. And I don't mean complicated in technique, although that too, and we'll talk about that later in the episode. But also, they're one of the most foundational baked goods in America. I mean, really, you could argue they're one of America's first baked goods.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the history of biscuits is particularly intertwined with the skill, knowledge, and contributions of Black bakers in American history. And that's something we're going to be talking about later in the episode. You know, biscuits inspire, as we have discovered in talking about this, a lot of passion. There's so many different styles of biscuits. They're deeply rooted in regional preferences.

And the history of biscuits is particularly intertwined with the skill, knowledge, and contributions of Black bakers in American history. And that's something we're going to be talking about later in the episode. You know, biscuits inspire, as we have discovered in talking about this, a lot of passion. There's so many different styles of biscuits. They're deeply rooted in regional preferences.

I love that the buttermilk powder is already added to the flour blend because, I mean, who keeps a carton of buttermilk on hand for when biscuit emergencies strike? Am I right?

I love that the buttermilk powder is already added to the flour blend because, I mean, who keeps a carton of buttermilk on hand for when biscuit emergencies strike? Am I right?

Well, it's interesting that you say that because my childhood cat growing up was named White Cat. And it was the daughter of another cat that we'd had whose name was? Black Cat.

Well, it's interesting that you say that because my childhood cat growing up was named White Cat. And it was the daughter of another cat that we'd had whose name was? Black Cat.

That's a super handy tool, especially if you're a sourdough baker who lives in a colder climate. We also have our New York Times bestselling Big Book of Bread, which demystifies sourdough baking and is a treasure trove of recipes. Who wrote that thing? For bread, bagels, and everything in between. I mean, who wrote that thing? Some geniuses.

That's a super handy tool, especially if you're a sourdough baker who lives in a colder climate. We also have our New York Times bestselling Big Book of Bread, which demystifies sourdough baking and is a treasure trove of recipes. Who wrote that thing? For bread, bagels, and everything in between. I mean, who wrote that thing? Some geniuses.

Some geniuses named Jessica Bonalana and some other people.

Some geniuses named Jessica Bonalana and some other people.

You can find everything you need for sourdough baking at kingarthurbaking.com.

You can find everything you need for sourdough baking at kingarthurbaking.com.

Oh, nice.

Oh, nice.

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake. Let's hear our first question.

And of course, if you have a baking question that simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to our Baker's Hotline via phone, email, or online chat. Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. That's kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline. Or call us 855-371-2253. That's 2253 as in bake. Let's hear our first question.

I feel like I'm opening up a can of worms here, but how do you know if your bread is underproofed or overproofed?

I feel like I'm opening up a can of worms here, but how do you know if your bread is underproofed or overproofed?

I think also sometimes people don't shape properly, like they're not shaping their loaf tightly enough. So rather than like have some strength there and some shaping that will help it rise, it sort of just flops outward rather than rising upward.

I think also sometimes people don't shape properly, like they're not shaping their loaf tightly enough. So rather than like have some strength there and some shaping that will help it rise, it sort of just flops outward rather than rising upward.

You ready, Amber? I'm ready.

You ready, Amber? I'm ready.

Things that get better with age. Women, cheese, wine, but sourdough starter?

Things that get better with age. Women, cheese, wine, but sourdough starter?

Well, and I hate to sound like a jaded jerk because I do like the sort of romance of, oh, this was passed on. And often you hear these very sweet stories of like, this was passed on to me from my late mother. This was passed on to me from a friend from across the country. Like that connection that baking brings, I think is something that totally resonates with me.

Well, and I hate to sound like a jaded jerk because I do like the sort of romance of, oh, this was passed on. And often you hear these very sweet stories of like, this was passed on to me from my late mother. This was passed on to me from a friend from across the country. Like that connection that baking brings, I think is something that totally resonates with me.

But by the time you've given your sourdough starter like a week of feedings, there's probably not very much left. Like the culture has assimilated, right? But that's okay. Absolutely. I think if you want to hang on to that history, whether or not it's like microbiologically accurate, that's great.

But by the time you've given your sourdough starter like a week of feedings, there's probably not very much left. Like the culture has assimilated, right? But that's okay. Absolutely. I think if you want to hang on to that history, whether or not it's like microbiologically accurate, that's great.

I love that. And I think that is why this topic today, I mean, it's such a huge topic, right? Like we're just going to scratch the surface because there are so many different, you know, aspects to sourdough baking. But I think one thing we know is that it's still very popular. Extremely popular and for good reason.

I love that. And I think that is why this topic today, I mean, it's such a huge topic, right? Like we're just going to scratch the surface because there are so many different, you know, aspects to sourdough baking. But I think one thing we know is that it's still very popular. Extremely popular and for good reason.

But I also think sometimes people spend a lot of energy trying to like jolly along a very sad starter because of the romance to it when they would be better off just starting over. That's cold.

But I also think sometimes people spend a lot of energy trying to like jolly along a very sad starter because of the romance to it when they would be better off just starting over. That's cold.

Move on. Yeah. I think we've knocked out all of today's sourdough questions, but I'm sure that there are more out there. But I think, I don't know, Amber, if you're up for it, maybe we'll have you back again because you were definitely a brilliant crutch for the two of us. This has been a lot of fun.

Move on. Yeah. I think we've knocked out all of today's sourdough questions, but I'm sure that there are more out there. But I think, I don't know, Amber, if you're up for it, maybe we'll have you back again because you were definitely a brilliant crutch for the two of us. This has been a lot of fun.

And if you want more Amber, and let's be honest, we all do, you can take a class with her at our baking school in Norwich, Vermont, or you can tune in and watch her on-demand sourdough class. And we will put a link to that in our show notes. Thanks, Amber. Thank you.

And if you want more Amber, and let's be honest, we all do, you can take a class with her at our baking school in Norwich, Vermont, or you can tune in and watch her on-demand sourdough class. And we will put a link to that in our show notes. Thanks, Amber. Thank you.

And I'm Jessica Badalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking. And today we're talking about a topic that elicits a lot of passion and curiosity, as well as frustration, hope, and toast. We're talking about sourdough, specifically the state of sourdough right now.

And I'm Jessica Badalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking. And today we're talking about a topic that elicits a lot of passion and curiosity, as well as frustration, hope, and toast. We're talking about sourdough, specifically the state of sourdough right now.

Though it's been around for thousands of years, I feel like it really took the pandemic for sourdough to enter mainstream culture in the way that it did. I think that was a period of time when every person you knew, and maybe a lot of our listeners too, started a sourdough culture at home and started baking sourdough bread. It was like, you know, gold rush, but for sourdough.

Though it's been around for thousands of years, I feel like it really took the pandemic for sourdough to enter mainstream culture in the way that it did. I think that was a period of time when every person you knew, and maybe a lot of our listeners too, started a sourdough culture at home and started baking sourdough bread. It was like, you know, gold rush, but for sourdough.

I like when it was a yeast mode. That was pretty good.

I like when it was a yeast mode. That was pretty good.

I'm impressed, though. People are far more creative than I am. I did just hear another great one the other day. I should have gotten them to call in. They have named theirs Bradley Cooper after the actor.

I'm impressed, though. People are far more creative than I am. I did just hear another great one the other day. I should have gotten them to call in. They have named theirs Bradley Cooper after the actor.

There's a lot of opportunities there.

There's a lot of opportunities there.

I know so many of these were so pure.

I know so many of these were so pure.

Strong, productive women.

Strong, productive women.

Not women sitting on their butts.

Not women sitting on their butts.

And that was just a small fraction of the names that we received. I wish we had time to play them all because they were so great. And thanks for everyone for calling in with your starter name. Thanks, listeners.

And that was just a small fraction of the names that we received. I wish we had time to play them all because they were so great. And thanks for everyone for calling in with your starter name. Thanks, listeners.

I feel like this is just like the segment that is inviting hate mail. We should have one of those disclaimers like they have at the end of prescriptions where they're like- These opinions may cause anger. This is just an opinion, not a fact. But I lived in San Francisco for almost 18 years. And it was an interesting time to live there because it was right around the time that

I feel like this is just like the segment that is inviting hate mail. We should have one of those disclaimers like they have at the end of prescriptions where they're like- These opinions may cause anger. This is just an opinion, not a fact. But I lived in San Francisco for almost 18 years. And it was an interesting time to live there because it was right around the time that

the original location of Tartine had opened. But prior to that, you know, people had an association with San Francisco sourdough. And the association that they had with it, and I think it still persists to a certain extent, is that sourdough should be super sour. Like a crusty loaf of sourdough bread should be like mouth puckeringly sour and tangy. And I just hate that style of sourdough so much.

the original location of Tartine had opened. But prior to that, you know, people had an association with San Francisco sourdough. And the association that they had with it, and I think it still persists to a certain extent, is that sourdough should be super sour. Like a crusty loaf of sourdough bread should be like mouth puckeringly sour and tangy. And I just hate that style of sourdough so much.

I think it is in some ways has given sourdough a bad reputation. And people will say, well, I don't like sourdough because they have this idea that is this super tangy, unpleasant loaf. And I think, you know, honestly, the best sourdough, I suppose, is the sourdough that you like to eat, right?

I think it is in some ways has given sourdough a bad reputation. And people will say, well, I don't like sourdough because they have this idea that is this super tangy, unpleasant loaf. And I think, you know, honestly, the best sourdough, I suppose, is the sourdough that you like to eat, right?

But I feel like, you know, that reputation has shut some people out or convinced people that sourdough doesn't belong, say, in a swirl bread or something like that. And I know in some cases that super sour flavor is achieved through like a very long cold fermentation period, which causes the dough to develop a lot of these acids that give you that sort of tangy flavor.

But I feel like, you know, that reputation has shut some people out or convinced people that sourdough doesn't belong, say, in a swirl bread or something like that. And I know in some cases that super sour flavor is achieved through like a very long cold fermentation period, which causes the dough to develop a lot of these acids that give you that sort of tangy flavor.

But I also know that there are some bakeries, especially bigger commercial sourdough bakeries, that just spike their dough with citric acid to make it... extra tangy, which I just think is a crime against good bread. Huh.

But I also know that there are some bakeries, especially bigger commercial sourdough bakeries, that just spike their dough with citric acid to make it... extra tangy, which I just think is a crime against good bread. Huh.

I guess balanced. Not sweet, but just about, I mean, I think you can appreciate the flavor of a sourdough without it like knocking you out with that sort of tanginess. Yeah.

I guess balanced. Not sweet, but just about, I mean, I think you can appreciate the flavor of a sourdough without it like knocking you out with that sort of tanginess. Yeah.

Yes, exactly. So that's my opinion for this week that I am not wild about the super sour sourdough, but to each their own, I suppose.

Yes, exactly. So that's my opinion for this week that I am not wild about the super sour sourdough, but to each their own, I suppose.

We are out of time. But before we go, I have one question for you, David, which is what are you baking this week?

We are out of time. But before we go, I have one question for you, David, which is what are you baking this week?

And I had been saying sort of derisively that I didn't have a sourdough starter during the pandemic. I never baked sourdough bread. And then recently I found a photo that I posted to Instagram saying, That was of a melted container of sourdough starter. This was like April of 2020. And in fact, I did have a sourdough starter and I put it in my oven to keep it warm or coddle it.

And I had been saying sort of derisively that I didn't have a sourdough starter during the pandemic. I never baked sourdough bread. And then recently I found a photo that I posted to Instagram saying, That was of a melted container of sourdough starter. This was like April of 2020. And in fact, I did have a sourdough starter and I put it in my oven to keep it warm or coddle it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, that's a good idea. I do have a recipe in my cookbook repertoire. They're called oat cakes in that book, but it's my grandmother's recipe. She was honestly a terrible baker, but she grew up in Nova Scotia. She was Scottish and she made exceptional oat cakes.

Oh yeah, that's a good idea. I do have a recipe in my cookbook repertoire. They're called oat cakes in that book, but it's my grandmother's recipe. She was honestly a terrible baker, but she grew up in Nova Scotia. She was Scottish and she made exceptional oat cakes.

And she liked to serve them with either like a smear of butter and a halved date on top of it, or with like a smear of soft blue cheese and a halved date. Yes, yes.

And she liked to serve them with either like a smear of butter and a halved date on top of it, or with like a smear of soft blue cheese and a halved date. Yes, yes.

Me too. So I'm also thinking of baking something sweet this week because every once in a while I get tasked with developing recipe and we're working on a classic tart tatin. So I'm going to try it a bunch of different ways. But one of the things I'm going to try it with is our fast and easy puff pastry, which has sour cream in it. And it's a shortcut way to get flaky pastry.

Me too. So I'm also thinking of baking something sweet this week because every once in a while I get tasked with developing recipe and we're working on a classic tart tatin. So I'm going to try it a bunch of different ways. But one of the things I'm going to try it with is our fast and easy puff pastry, which has sour cream in it. And it's a shortcut way to get flaky pastry.

So I'm going to try it with that and with a pie dough and kind of compare and contrast.

So I'm going to try it with that and with a pie dough and kind of compare and contrast.

Things that get better with age. Women, cheese, wine.

Things that get better with age. Women, cheese, wine.

Sadly, we are out of time for today.

Sadly, we are out of time for today.

Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. We'll be back next week with an episode all about biscuits.

Thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know. We'll be back next week with an episode all about biscuits.

And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend.

And leave us a review while you're there or share this episode with a friend.

And me, Jessica Badalana.

And me, Jessica Badalana.

This episode featured Amber Eisler, King Arthur's baking school director. You can learn more about the baking school as well as Amber's on-demand sourdough for beginners class at kingarthurbaking.com slash baking dash school. They're also linked in the show notes.

This episode featured Amber Eisler, King Arthur's baking school director. You can learn more about the baking school as well as Amber's on-demand sourdough for beginners class at kingarthurbaking.com slash baking dash school. They're also linked in the show notes.

I turned my oven on and I melted the plastic quart container that it was in. But I had blocked out the memory of ever having a sourdough starter during the pandemic, ever baking bread with it.

I turned my oven on and I melted the plastic quart container that it was in. But I had blocked out the memory of ever having a sourdough starter during the pandemic, ever baking bread with it.

It was buried trauma. But others fared a lot better than I did. And you see it now because people are still baking tons of sourdough bread at home.

It was buried trauma. But others fared a lot better than I did. And you see it now because people are still baking tons of sourdough bread at home.

Do you feel like we've sort of reached like peak sourdough at this point, or are there still places to go?

Do you feel like we've sort of reached like peak sourdough at this point, or are there still places to go?

Yeah, the third, Tartine book three, yeah.

Yeah, the third, Tartine book three, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone knows about sourdough breads or sourdough rolls and English muffins and bagels, but there are all these applications for sourdough discard. You know, so once you've fed your starter and you have all this discard, people are kind of realizing, like, I don't want to just, like, discard my discard. I want to use this flavorful matrix, you know, to work for me.

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone knows about sourdough breads or sourdough rolls and English muffins and bagels, but there are all these applications for sourdough discard. You know, so once you've fed your starter and you have all this discard, people are kind of realizing, like, I don't want to just, like, discard my discard. I want to use this flavorful matrix, you know, to work for me.

And so it's getting added to all sorts of interesting things. You know, and here in South Portland, Maine, there's a bakery called Night Moves that I love. Oof.

And so it's getting added to all sorts of interesting things. You know, and here in South Portland, Maine, there's a bakery called Night Moves that I love. Oof.

And the baker, Carrie Haney, is adding sourdough discard to her cacao brownie. And it's mind-blowing. It has such a depth of flavor, and it plays so nicely off the chocolate. And it just kind of shows you the opportunity that people have with sourdough discard as an ingredient unto itself.

And the baker, Carrie Haney, is adding sourdough discard to her cacao brownie. And it's mind-blowing. It has such a depth of flavor, and it plays so nicely off the chocolate. And it just kind of shows you the opportunity that people have with sourdough discard as an ingredient unto itself.

Last October, I buckled my sourdough starter into the car and I brought it to our studio in New Hampshire because we were photographing the big book of bread and we wanted to show starter at different stages. So we wanted to show one that was tragically neglected and I volunteered to let mine be the tragically underfed. So I just ignored it for months leading up to this shoot.

Last October, I buckled my sourdough starter into the car and I brought it to our studio in New Hampshire because we were photographing the big book of bread and we wanted to show starter at different stages. So we wanted to show one that was tragically neglected and I volunteered to let mine be the tragically underfed. So I just ignored it for months leading up to this shoot.

Well, and that's what I was saying. I mean, there's so much to talk about that I think we had to tease out one thing that we could focus on because we could talk for, I mean, we did when we were working on The Big Book of Bread. We talked for years, actually years.

Well, and that's what I was saying. I mean, there's so much to talk about that I think we had to tease out one thing that we could focus on because we could talk for, I mean, we did when we were working on The Big Book of Bread. We talked for years, actually years.

Actual years of our life were spent thinking and talking about both how to start, maintain, troubleshoot with sourdough culture, but then the beautiful things that you could bake with it. So we had to just like bite off a small piece of the apple here.

Actual years of our life were spent thinking and talking about both how to start, maintain, troubleshoot with sourdough culture, but then the beautiful things that you could bake with it. So we had to just like bite off a small piece of the apple here.

But sourdough starter?

But sourdough starter?

And then at the end of the shoot, my colleague, Melanie Wanders, who was the co-author of the book, was like, nope, start over. So she gave me some of her starter. And there's a piece of masking tape on it. And it's called Jessica's Jazzy Starter 2.0. But that's, yeah, Jessica's Jazzy Starter.

And then at the end of the shoot, my colleague, Melanie Wanders, who was the co-author of the book, was like, nope, start over. So she gave me some of her starter. And there's a piece of masking tape on it. And it's called Jessica's Jazzy Starter 2.0. But that's, yeah, Jessica's Jazzy Starter.

I just never named it. I don't name cars. I don't name sourdough starters.

I just never named it. I don't name cars. I don't name sourdough starters.

This episode is brought to you by King Arthur's Sourdough Shop. We have fresh sourdough starter you can order so you can skip the week it takes to make one from scratch. And we also have the tools you need, like our popular sourdough crocks and appliances, including the beloved Sourdough Home, which is like a cozy little refrigerator for your starter.

This episode is brought to you by King Arthur's Sourdough Shop. We have fresh sourdough starter you can order so you can skip the week it takes to make one from scratch. And we also have the tools you need, like our popular sourdough crocks and appliances, including the beloved Sourdough Home, which is like a cozy little refrigerator for your starter.

We also have one of your favorite tools, David, the Raisin Dough Riser.

We also have one of your favorite tools, David, the Raisin Dough Riser.